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Can the Callidus Assassin be charged after she jumps back?  I'm doing this from memory, so bear with me.  The rule for jump back says that it happens at the start of the assault phase.  Lets say she moves, breaks combat, etc etc...Now, can units that she was NOT engaged with charge her?  This came up in a game recently and I'd like to make sure we played it correctly.  Thanks!

Sure. No reason that she would be immune to that. The unit she left can't, but they may be able to consolidate into her,

Main thing preventing another unit charging her in the same phase is that all assaults "happen" simultaneously even though for game mechanics you resolve each one's movement sequentially.  Therefore, no unit would be able to charge her after she jumps back...  Unless I am misunderstanding your situation???

Yes, she can be charged. This is assuming that the charging unit declared a charge on her BEFORE she jumped and that the jump didn't take her far enough away to avoid it.

I don't see anything in the rules that support you saying it had to be declared before she jumps.

In fact, once you start declaring charges, it is no longer the beginning of the assault phase, and she can't jump back.

The jumping back is done at the begining, before charges are even declared, so yeah. The inquisition wont like it but serves em right for taking a callidus.

Posted By coredump on 05/25/2007 9:43 PM
I don't see anything in the rules that support you saying it had to be declared before she jumps.

In fact, once you start declaring charges, it is no longer the beginning of the assault phase, and she can't jump back.

OK, that w orks.

Hey whats wrong with that nasty, evil, killing machine? Shes wonderful.
Ok the question was answered but if you only leave combat in your apponants turn and stick to either small heavy units (dev squads, reapers,etc...) or just hit there best unit you will usually do ok. I say usually first those HS units like dev squads are expensive and quickly pay for her points and also its tougher for them to have another unit in charge range. For there command unit or model if you are leaving cc they better be charging her with another equally deadly unit, its not that common to see either. but even if thy have it and are willing to drag some expensive cc unit over to her there now at a loss somewhere else even if she dies eventually.
I have said before but my best game with a callidus she killed a force comander a 5 man terminator squad finished of a tac squad and was rolling into another when the game ended.

There is an element of common sense here. Charges are declared at the "same" time as the jump out thing. I see no resolution offered for this in the rules. It is what it is.

However it is pretty obvious that the NEW charger would have to be REacting to her jump in order to declare a charge on her AFTER the fact. Ergo chronologically, no charge is possible as the chargers must declare a legal target and she isn't legal until AFTER the beginning of the phase (the time frame she uses to jump).

Another note: She IS after all an independent character. If you're playing the rules right, then you know she would have already been "Piled in" to. If so, most chargers dont have the LEGAL ability to get in base with her to assault her until AFTER her jump...another reason why she cannot be announced as the target of a charge until AFTER the start of the turn (the time frame she uses up to jump). Charging after the start of the phase is not legal.

Posted By Jancoran on 06/12/2007 11:51 PM
There is an element of common sense here. Charges are declared at the "same" time as the jump out thing. I see no resolution offered for this in the rules. It is what it is.

I'm sorry, but that is faulty logic. There are many things players can do in the Assault phase (such as Jetpack troops making their 6" move in lieu of charging or a player picking a unit and declaring a charge with it), but anything that happens at the 'start' of the Assault phase most certainly occurs before a player would have chance to do any voluntary action, just as players must roll for units arriving deep striking at the start of the turn before they start moving any of their existing units around the table.

So if an Assassin jumps out of combat at the start of the opponent's Assault phase that would be before their opponent has a chance to pick a unit and declare a charge with it. That indeed means the unit the Assassin jumped out of combat with will generally be able to charge back into combat with her if they want.

 

Don't be fooled though, the jump back ability is still very, very useful. When used in the Assassin's assault phase it allows her to get out of an undesirable combat and charge a better target (or just charge back into the same unit to get the charge bonus).

 

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2007 1:34 AM

Posted By Jancoran on 06/12/2007 11:51 PM
There is an element of common sense here. Charges are declared at the "same" time as the jump out thing. I see no resolution offered for this in the rules. It is what it is.

I'm sorry, but that is faulty logic. There are many things players can do in the Assault phase (such as Jetpack troops making their 6" move in lieu of charging or a player picking a unit and declaring a charge with it), but anything that happens at the 'start' of the Assault phase most certainly occurs before a player would have chance to do any voluntary action, just as players must roll for units arriving deep striking at the start of the turn before they start moving any of their existing units around the table.

So if an Assassin jumps out of combat at the start of the opponent's Assault phase that would be before their opponent has a chance to pick a unit and declare a charge with it. That indeed means the unit the Assassin jumped out of combat with will generally be able to charge back into combat with her if they want.

 

Don't be fooled though, the jump back ability is still very, very useful. When used in the Assassin's assault phase it allows her to get out of an undesirable combat and charge a better target (or just charge back into the same unit to get the charge bonus).

 

 

Wouldn't it have to be a different unit that charges her. The Jump Back ability states that the unit she jumps away from can consolidate. Also, from discussions with GW studio guys over the years, the Callidus can't jump out and charge back in on her turn.

Posted By don_mondo on 06/13/2007 2:58 AM

 

Wouldn't it have to be a different unit that charges her. The Jump Back ability states that the unit she jumps away from can consolidate. Also, from discussions with GW studio guys over the years, the Callidus can't jump out and charge back in on her turn.

The exact rule (from the WH codex) says:

"At the start of any Assault phase, the Callidus Assassin can attempt to disengage from combat. Roll a D6 -- on a roll of a 1 she fails to disengage and must fight on in the combat normally, on a roll of 2 or more she moves that many inches away from the enemy. This move cannot be used to move into contact with a different enemy model. If this leaves the enemy unit unengaged, they may make a consolidate move at the end of the Assault phase."


The Assault rules on page 36 of the rulebook state that a player:

1. pick a unit.
2. Declare charge with it.
3. Move the charging unit.
4. Repeat the above until all charging units have moved.


If a player picks a unit to declare a charge with it they are then unequivocally beyond the "start" of the Assault phase.

By the RAW the Assassin MUST disengage (if she is going to) before any charges are declared.

There are absolutely no rules preventing either the Assassin or the unit she disengaged from then immediately declaring a charge (depending on whose Assault phase it is, of course).

It is true that the unit she disengages from may consolidate at the end of the Assault phase provided they don't get locked into some other combat.

I respect that the studio guys don't play this way, but they certainly aren't following the rules they printed.

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2007 3:47 AM
"At the start of any Assault phase, the Callidus Assassin can attempt to disengage from combat. Roll a D6 -- on a roll of a 1 she fails to disengage and must fight on in the combat normally, on a roll of 2 or more she moves that many inches away from the enemy. This move cannot be used to move into contact with a different enemy model. If this leaves the enemy unit unengaged, they may make a consolidate move at the end of the Assault phase."

Yak, from the quote you provided it clearly states that they may consolidate at the end of the phase (I have highlighted the sentence).  It does not state that they may do anything else (like declare a charge).  By specifically stating they may consolidate at the end of the turn, that de facto limits them to only consolidation.  If they were allowed to act normally or in some other modified way, they would not have specifically limited the action to only consolidation.  To say that they may do anything other than what is specified in the rule, flies in the face of the rule itself.

Jancoran Assassins are NOT independent characters. She leaves combat at the begging of the turn the unit that she left can declare a charge on her and any other units in range can also. Thats why you only ever leave combat in your turn.

I can see the points of everyone else here and the fact that it says the unit she leaves "can consolidate at the end of the turn" makes it sound as if thats all they can do and i agree it should be that way but legally they may charge her that same turn. Other types of unit that leave cc usually are able to move further and avoid these issues altogether.

Posted By 5thelement on 06/13/2007 2:22 PM
I can see the points of everyone else here and the fact that it says the unit she leaves "can consolidate at the end of the turn" makes it sound as if thats all they can do and i agree it should be that way but legally they may charge her that same turn.

Do you have some sort of 'legal' justification for your statement.  The specific rule of the Callidus over-rules the general rule of units no longer engaged in CC.  So how do you justify that the unit can do anything other than consolidate at the end of the assault phase?  You would have to have another specific rule that would over-ride the Callidus' specific rule.

No actually all i need to do is point out that she does her move back first and that you can continue at that point to do whatever you wish.

Do you have anything that says otherwise? Nope because there is nothing. Your telling me that if she leaves combat on the apponants turn that that unit can do nothing but consolidate?  They cant charge anyone else or do anything at all? I dont think so.

 

Posted By 5thelement on 06/13/2007 3:55 PM

No actually all i need to do is point out that she does her move back first and that you can continue at that point to do whatever you wish.

Do you have anything that says otherwise? Nope because there is nothing. Your telling me that if she leaves combat on the apponants turn that that unit can do nothing but consolidate?  They cant charge anyone else or do anything at all? I dont think so.

That is exactly what I am saying because that is her RAW.  Her rules don't specify one players turn or the other.  If you are going to use a Callidus, use the rules for her.  If your opponent uses a Callidus, you should expect him to use the rules for her as they are written and not look for some sort of unwritten specific exception where none exist.  That is just trying to give yourself an unfair advantage...

Her rules are pretty clear.  It says she can jump back and the opponent's unit may consolidate at the end of the assault phase- it doesn't list any other action they may make, so they may do only what is listed.  What units may do under normal circumstances is immaterial vis-a-vis the Callidus because her rules over-ride the general rules in this respect.  Not sure where your confusion lies...

Posted By Beast on 06/13/2007 1:27 PM

Yak, from the quote you provided it clearly states that they may consolidate at the end of the phase (I have highlighted the sentence).  It does not state that they may do anything else (like declare a charge).  By specifically stating they may consolidate at the end of the turn, that de facto limits them to only consolidation.  If they were allowed to act normally or in some other modified way, they would not have specifically limited the action to only consolidation.  To say that they may do anything other than what is specified in the rule, flies in the face of the rule itself.

Your argument is a clear fallacy. The basic rules allow any unit to declare a charge so something in the jump back rules would have to specifically prevent her from charging for her not to be able to.

 

To use a real world example to help you understand why your argument is completely faulty:

You are allowed to drive home anytime during the day. I then tell you: "you may drive home at night." That statement in and of itself does not invalidate the basic premise that you can still drive home anytime during the day, it just allows you to also drive home at night.

 

 

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2007 5:25 PM
Your argument is a clear fallacy. The basic rules allow any unit to declare a charge so something in the jump back rules would have to specifically prevent her from charging for her not to be able to.

I never asserted anything about the Callidus' actions.  Re-read my post.  I was talking about the Callidus' opposing unit and only that unit.

Did you mis-type when you said "her"? Because I agree that the Callidus can charge after jumping back...  What I am saying about the opposing unit is that it is only allowed to consolidate after the Callidus jumps back from it.  Yes, of course if the Callidus chooses to re-charge that same unit after her jump-back, then that unit will then fight, but if she chooses to leave that unit alone, then it can do nothing that assault phase except consolidate.  Am I making my point clear now?  I am a bit baffled that you could possibly interpret my post as applying to the Callidus...

 

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2007 3:47 AM

There are absolutely no rules preventing either the Assassin or the unit she disengaged from then immediately declaring a charge (depending on whose Assault phase it is, of course).

It is true that the unit she disengages from may consolidate at the end of the Assault phase provided they don't get locked into some other combat.

I respect that the studio guys don't play this way, but they certainly aren't following the rules they printed.

If this is what you are still asserting then, yes I disagree with you.  There are in fact rules preventing the unit she disengaged from charging her after she jumps back.  It is spelled out clearly (IMHO) in the jump-back rule.  They may consolidate.  It doesn't say they may act normally.  They put a restriction, a limitation, an if/then statement into the rule.  If she jumps back, then they may consolidate.  NOT- if she jumps back then they may act normally.

Posted By Beast on 06/13/2007 5:51 PM

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2007 5:25 PM
Your argument is a clear fallacy. The basic rules allow any unit to declare a charge so something in the jump back rules would have to specifically prevent her from charging for her not to be able to.

I never asserted anything about the Callidus' actions.  Re-read my post.  I was talking about the Callidus' opposing unit and only that unit.

Did you mis-type when you said "her"? Because I agree that the Callidus can charge after jumping back...  What I am saying about the opposing unit is that it is only allowed to consolidate after the Callidus jumps back from it.  Yes, of course if the Callidus chooses to re-charge that same unit after her jump-back, then that unit will then fight, but if she chooses to leave that unit alone, then it can do nothing that assault phase except consolidate.  Am I making my point clear now?  I am a bit baffled that you could possibly interpret my post as applying to the Callidus...

 

The same argument applies for both the Callidus and the unit she disengaged from (depending on whose Assault phase it is).

Say that I'm playing Orks and the Callidus jumps out of an existing combat (with Slugga Boyz) at the start of my Assault phase. I now get to pick units and declare charges with them, so I pick the Slugga Boy unit (that the Callidus disengaged from) and I declare that they are charging the Callidus.

What rule prevents them from charging? Nothing in the Callidus's Jump Back rules does, so therefore they may charge as normal.

Now, if the Sluggas don't charge anyone at the end of the Assault phase they get to make a Consolidation move per the Jump Back rule, but the Jump Back rule doesn't limit them from only making a Consolidation move that Assault phase.

 

 

Posted By yakface on 06/13/2007 6:14 PMThe same argument applies for both the Callidus and the unit she disengaged from (depending on whose Assault phase it is).

Say that I'm playing Orks and the Callidus jumps out of an existing combat (with Slugga Boyz) at the start of my Assault phase. I now get to pick units and declare charges with them, so I pick the Slugga Boy unit (that the Callidus disengaged from) and I declare that they are charging the Callidus.

What rule prevents them from charging? Nothing in the Callidus's Jump Back rules does, so therefore they may charge as normal.

Now, if the Sluggas don't charge anyone at the end of the Assault phase they get to make a Consolidation move per the Jump Back rule, but the Jump Back rule doesn't limit them from only making a Consolidation move that Assault phase. 

And herein lies our disagreement...  I say the jump-back rule does limit the Sluggaboyz, by the very wording of the rule (the if/then example I used).  But I can see how you might choose to see it a different way.  It could be perhaps worded better, but to me it is obvious that by stating the limit of their actions, consolidation is all they may do.  The BGB has many examples that show when a specific action is stated in a rule, that is all the unit in question may do.  It gives some indication that this is how they write rules where only limited actions are allowed.  Definitive? Absolutely not.  Indicative of how they write their rules? Perhaps.  Maybe I should start to use a Callidus...  She does seem pretty effective. 

Anyway, another rule where no resolution can be definitive w/out an faq apparently, owing to wording that is admittedly slightly sloppy.

Posted By Beast on 06/13/2007 4:19 PM

 

Her rules are pretty clear.  It says she can jump back and the opponent's unit may consolidate at the end of the assault phase- it doesn't list any other action they may make, so they may do only what is listed.  What units may do under normal circumstances is immaterial vis-a-vis the Callidus because her rules over-ride the general rules in this respect.  Not sure where your confusion lies...

The confusion lies at the point at which your interperetation falls down. The rule does not say the the opposing unit may ONLY consolidate, it doesn't even say they MUST consolidate, it says they MAY consolidate.  The only restriction for the opposing unit in the rule is WHEN they may consolidate: instead of immediately the must wait till the end of the assault phase.

Once again, this is a permissive ruleset and the specific overrides the general; The general rules permit a player to declare a charge with any unengaged unit which is not already in close combat, and this specific rule makes absolutely no mention of declaring charges in anyway whatsoever.

Two schools of thought on the wording for her rules.  Some agree with one interpretation, some agree with the other.  I think this thread has pretty well played itself out as far as making new points Lordhat.  Your argument is not really new to this issue.  It basically comes down to whether you think GW intended the consolidation comment in her rules to be a limitation or some sort of permission to do what the rules would otherwise already have allowed you to do anyway (which makes the point of saying it a bit strange and redundant).

Except that without the mention, you would't GET to consolidate, as the general rule only allows a unit to make a consolidate move after winning a combat or regrouping; this is neither instance, and although you would assume you could consolidate all you have to do is look at the Necron's Veil of Darkness to see a VERY similar situation where you can't, precisely because neither the general rule nor the special rule allows you to. Certain special rules, such as the Hit and Run U.S.R.,  allow consolidation at other times.

Ah, but you can only do what the rules allow you to do, not what they don't specifically prohibit.

Lordhat, I understand your and yak's point of view as being in the group that doesn't agree with mine.  I got that... You don't see the limitation (or what I believe to be a limitation) in her rule as being a special rule that over-rides the general rule...  I got that too...   I happen to disagree with you, but that's okay.  The more I read the rule, the more I think that it could have been more clearly worded.  As it stands either interpretation is understandable IMHO.  I just think the rule means something different than you do.  It's all good though.  She is effective no matter which way you play her and in a game I would not mind my opponent playing her either way.

Bear in mind that the rule was also written for 3rd edition, 4th edition changed how it interacts with the rules.

Posted By Ghaz on 06/13/2007 10:02 PM

The confusion lies at the point at which your interperetation falls down. The rule does not say the the opposing unit may ONLY consolidate,

Ah, but you can only do what the rules allow you to do, not what they don't specifically prohibit.

True, but (as I've stated numerous times now) the basic rules allow units to make charges in their assault phase. . .so since there isn't anything in the jump back rule negating this, the unit is clearly still allowed to charge.

 

Posted By Beast on 06/13/2007 10:05 PM

Lordhat, I understand your and yak's point of view as being in the group that doesn't agree with mine.  I got that... You don't see the limitation (or what I believe to be a limitation) in her rule as being a special rule that over-rides the general rule...  I got that too...   I happen to disagree with you, but that's okay.  The more I read the rule, the more I think that it could have been more clearly worded.  As it stands either interpretation is understandable IMHO.  I just think the rule means something different than you do.  It's all good though.  She is effective no matter which way you play her and in a game I would not mind my opponent playing her either way.

The thing is, while I understand how you could come to the conclusion you have, your argument is based on a logical fallacy and is therefore incorrect.

Essentially you are saying: "I think the designers intended to write that the unit may only make a consolidation move if an Assassin disengages from them".

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion your conclusion is, strictly by the rules, completely and totally false.