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Hi all

I've been directed here from warseer forums to get the definitive answer to a rules question I have!?

Quite simply I'm designing an IG army for this years UK GT and want to know if it is legal to drop the command squad of an infantry platoon (or heavy weapon/HQ platoon etc etc) via the drop troops doctrine and yet deploy the infantry squads of the same platoon normally!?

I know a definitive answer is difficult with rules threads but any help would be great!

 

Cheers

 

Malchek

Here is your answer and it is very definitive.

YES

Yes you can just drop the command squad and deploy the rest normally

Please search the threads for "suicide command squad" if you are looking for a page number.

Yep. The doctrine states:

"Any Guard Infantry unit (without a Chimera transport) or Sentinel squadron may Deep Strike if the mission permits. Other units must deploy conventionally."


This is a specific rule that says any guard infantry unit can Deep Strike. Since a Comand Squad is clearly defined as a "Guard Infantry" unit on page 55 of the codex, it is allowed to Deep Strike while the rest of the platoon must deploy conventionally (assuming you don't want to Deep Strike them either).

Wait, but in order to deep strike, dosen't the unit have to be able to be in reserve first? Deep strike only allows you another option of coming on to the table (ie deepstriking instead of moving on from the table edge), it dosen't change how reserve works.

IG codex specifically states that reserve rolls are rolled for the entire platoon, they either all are on the table or all in reserve.

The only exception to this is the errata regarding the light infantry doctrine IIRC.

The way I see it, in order to use deep strike, the reserve rules must be applied first, and when the reserve rules are applied, the entire platoon must all be in reserve or none in reserve. I don't see how the deep strike rules allows you to pick and chose which units in the platoon you want to hold back.

Posted By Will on 04/25/2007 1:49 PMIG codex specifically states that reserve rolls are rolled for the entire platoon, they either all are on the table or all in reserve.

Yes, you roll for each Choice on the FOC sepeately, but nothing requires the entire choice to be either on the table or in reserves.  Especially when rules refer to 'units'.

It's the same as if the command section had a chimera in an escalation game.  The command section would start off the board, but the platoons would deploy.

Posted By Will on 04/25/2007 1:49 PM
Wait, but in order to deep strike, dosen't the unit have to be able to be in reserve first? Deep strike only allows you another option of coming on to the table (ie deepstriking instead of moving on from the table edge), it dosen't change how reserve works.

Read the deep strike rules (page 84). They allow you to place the unit in reserves.


Remember, the more specific rule overrides the general. The general rule notes that the entire platoon is set up at once but the unit's specific ability to Deep Strike allows it to be placed in reserve and arrive via Deep Strike.

Thanks Yak. The deep strike rule allow specific units to be placed in reserve indeed. Now I need to look for 40 points in my list.

I thought somewhere on the 07 GT tournament rule packet that specifically stated that IG with Drop Troops is all or nothing for a platoon. Has anyone else seen that?

Posted By Will on 04/25/2007 4:54 PM

I thought somewhere on the 07 GT tournament rule packet that specifically stated that IG with Drop Troops is all or nothing for a platoon. Has anyone else seen that?

Nope. If we're talking about the USGTs I haven't seen any sort of rules FAQ.

Hi everyone - thanks for all your replies - I took someones advice and emailed the UK GT Organising team and I have my definitive answer!

Hi Robert,

Quite simply no, as they are purchased as a single entry on the force
organisation chart they must be deployed in the same way.

Hope that helps

Brian Aderson



Events Team Manager
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07919 321434

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-----Original Message-----

Sent: 25 April 2007 17:21
To: Warhammer World Events
Subject: Quick Question!

Hi there,

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question but I need
to clarify the following for this year's UK GT?

I've checked all the relevant rule books, Faq's etc etc but I am unable
to find an answer for my problem.

Quite simply, with the IG and the drop troops doctrine, is it legal at
the UK GT to hold the command squad of a platoon in reserve and
deepstrike it but deploy the infantry squads of the same platoon as
normal in the deployment phase????

This isn't answered anywhere and the rules are unclear to me!

Hope you can help.

Kind regards

Robert Reynolds
Games Workshop Limited
registered office: Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham,
Nottinghamshire, NG7 2WS
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So looks like its back to the drawing board!!!!!!!!!!????????

Thanks for all your help!

Malchek

Well, it's good that you got the answer that mattered -- whether or not you can do something in a grand tournament is ultimately up to the person running it, and he's given you your answer.

That said, he has gone against the rules as written with his answer and that's a shame.

I think I will shoot him an email and try to figure out why he has ruled this way (any way you can PM me his email?).

 

Edit: Well, I sent an email to: events@games-workshop.co.uk so we'll see if they respond.

 

 

Does anyone know how that rule is played in US GTs?  If not does anyone have the email address so I can send them a note?

Hey Yak, let us know if you hear anything back. p.55 seems to make it pretty clear.

That GW reply also contradicts the Imperial Guard FAQ which states:

 "If you buy Light Infantry for the two squads in a Platoon but not for the Command squad, the Platoon deploys its different elements separately."

The FAQ explicitly allows the units of a single force organization slot to be deployed at different times.

So does anyone know how this is played in the US GTs?

Hopefulyl according to the rules. As already explained, the Reserve rules are nice and clear, and when you combine them with the FAQ answer about Light Infantry, the answer is obvious.  I don't honestly see any need to ask the organizer when the rules are this clear.

Of course if you do ask, and if the tourney organizer doesn't bother reading the rules before he gives you an answer, he might say anything.

Posted By Will on 05/03/2007 5:16 PM
So does anyone know how this is played in the US GTs?

Yep, been there, done that. The US GTs have always ruled correctly and allowed splitting the platoon elements.

 

And yes, I'm back.............................. first post in a looooong time

Wecome back Don Mondo. Especially to YMDC.

 

Well, I finally got a response back from Brian Anderson regarding this issue (only took more than a month!), and it appears that he is sticking by his ruling despite the fact that it is logically incorrect (IMO). Here is a copy of my original email, followed by his response.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: yakface
Sent: 26 April 2007 10:24
To: Warhammer World Events
Subject: An IG follow-up question for the UKGT


Hello,

I am interested in taking an Imperial Guard army to the grand tournament this year and a friend of mine recently sent an email about an Imperial Guard rules query to the Events Manager (Brian Anderson) and got a reply that, frankly, I find baffling. I am wondering if Brian can perhaps give me a little information on why he ruled the way he did (as it potentially affects how many IG players will construct and play their armies).

The orginial question that was asked was:

"Quite simply, with the IG and the drop troops doctrine, is it legal at the UK GT to hold the command squad of a platoon in reserve and deepstrike it but deploy the infantry squads of the same platoon as normal in the deployment phase????"


To which Brain replied:

"Quite simply no, as they are purchased as a single entry on the force organisation chart they must be deployed in the same way.

Hope that helps

Brian Aderson"



The issue is, the doctrine istelf quite clearly allows single Guard Infantry units to use the Deep Strike ability. The exact rule states:

"Any Guard Infantry unit (without a Chimera transport) or Sentinel squadron may Deep Strike if the mission permits. Other units must deploy conventionally."


"Guard Inantry unit" is clearly defined in the codex as being individual platoon and command squad units (among other things).


Also, the current official GW online FAQ states that you can give some units in a platoon the Light Infantry doctrine and infiltrate them while the rest
of the platoon deploys normally.

In another situation, if the platoon command squad was equipped with a Chimera and the mission featured the Escalation special rule wouldn't the Command squad in the Chimera have to start off the table while the platoon infantry squads would be deployed normally?


In other words, I find no definitive evidence that some Guard Infantry units in a platoon *shouldn't* be allowed to deep strike while others in the  platoon deploy normally.

I was under the impression that you were trying to follow the rules as written when possible and it seems to me that this ruling is ignoring both
the rules as they are written in the codex and the precedent set by your own FAQs.



Thanks for your time and please let me know what the ultimate ruling for the tournament will be!


yakface

 

Hi yakface,

I've spent a while looking into your comments and I have to say it seems that you have tried to use other rules as a precedent for interpreting another.

The Light Infantry Doctrine allows you to apply the doctrine to some Infantry units and not others by specifying a points cost and specifically saying that you purchase this skill on a unit by unit basis.

The Drop Troops doctrine is defined for the whole Regiment and so all Infantry Units would have this skill.

It states in the Codex the definition of Guard Infantry Unit...

"..., the definition includes any command squad along with its Officers and any attached advisors, Anti-tank squads, Fire Support squads, Special Weapons squads (if the regiment may use them), Mortar squads, Hardened Veteran squads, normal Infantry Platoon squads and Armoured Fist squads."

And, under the entry for Infantry Platoon it states
"Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves. Otherwise they function as independent units."

And, under the entry for Command Platoon it states
"A Command Platoon counts as a single unit for army selection, deployment and reserves purposes. However, each sub-unit may deploy or arrive in a different location and act independently."

These entries in the Codex book lead me to conclude that my original ruling is correct. All elements of a Platoon as defined in the original
question must be deployed under the same circumstances, either during the deployment phase or, if the scenario permits, using the Drop Pod
Doctrine rules.

Brian Aderson

Warhammer World Events Team Manager
0115 9004469
07919 321434

 

Oh well. . .

 

 

wow..... this guy is a complete idiot..... by quoting those references.... he's trying to say that an "infantry platoon" is a unit..... even though under the description of units it says "infantry platoon squads".... thus, not the ENTIRE platoon......... it basically sums up the quality of people GW has working for them. Also the "each sub platoon may deploy and arrive in a different location"... let's interpret that literally.... it would seem to mean that the one unit could DEPLOY on the table, while the other unit ARRIVED by deepstriking...... you know your arguement is weak when it can be disproven by your own references

Bright Side = I don't play in the UK

Posted By Will on 04/26/2007 4:53 AM
Does anyone know how that rule is played in US GTs?  If not does anyone have the email address so I can send them a note?

I've been doing this in the US GTs since the current IG codex came out. As stated by others, the IG codex allows you to split deploy your platoons. My favorite example is a HQ platoon in an Excaltion mission. Command squad in a Chimera must start in reserve, the sentinel squadron is always allowed to deploy, the Light Infantry Fire Support squad can infiltrate and the Drop Troop Special Weapon squad can Deep Strike. You would bring in both the SW and Cmd squads on a single die roll.

In fact, there are two occasions I can think of where they (GW) have FAQed that you do not have to deploy all of a Force Org slot at same time, IG Light Infantry and Tau Pathfinders. Precedents......

Wow, could that GW guy be any more dense.  If he actually bothered to READ the references he posted, I don't see how he could conceivably support his own ruling.  The only way his ruling makes any sense is if you use the term 'unit' and 'platoon' interchagably.  But the codex clearly defines it so he really has no leg to stand on.

Thanks to yak for following up on this, as I too play IG w/ drop troops.  Glad I don't play anywhere near that GW buffoon.  I guess it highlights an apparently common occurrence within GW- ignore your own rules when it suits you. 

Just ask him what happens when you take Drop Troops, give it to all your squads except your Command Squads, who you give Chimeras to.

What happens then? I can't Deep Strike the Command Squad, only the Infantry squads, but according to what he says they all have to DS. He's full of BS.

BYE

I wish I could get a clear ruling on this subject. The story keeps changing.  I am currently Deep Striking my Special Weapons Squad and letting the rest of the HQ come on the table as normal.  But before that I was also under the impression the I could deep strike only parts of my platoon then the common consensus changed so that I could not do that, then I went aback to doing it because of some stuff that was said (people pointed out sternly that I was wrong when I said that you had to put the whole platoon in reserves) and now I don't know if I should go back to not deep striking my special weapons squad or what.  This is really frustrating.

 

What would you do?

Posted By Afrika on 06/13/2007 9:38 PM

I wish I could get a clear ruling on this subject. The story keeps changing.  I am currently Deep Striking my Special Weapons Squad and letting the rest of the HQ come on the table as normal.  But before that I was also under the impression the I could deep strike only parts of my platoon then the common consensus changed so that I could not do that, then I went aback to doing it because of some stuff that was said (people pointed out sternly that I was wrong when I said that you had to put the whole platoon in reserves) and now I don't know if I should go back to not deep striking my special weapons squad or what.  This is really frustrating.

 

What would you do?

I would check ahead of time with the tournament organizer of the event you are attending.

If playing in pick-up games I would deep strike individual units in the platoon as the rules are clear. There simply is no evidence that the general rule about platoons deploying together isn't overriden by the more specific ability of individual units with Deep Strike being able to be kept in reserve.

Indeed there are other situations (infiltration and Escalation) that allow/force platoons to split up their deployment.



I can tell you for sure that at Adepticon (at least) dropping individual squads from a platoon will be fully legal.

 

 

I agree with the ruling that you can deepstrike portions of a platoon. I have always palyed it that way, all of my opponants have played it that way and it has never been an issue.

That guy from GW's ruling was really poor IMO. If you have a platoon with an HQ in a Chimera, do they all start off the board in escalation? The rules are clear on the matter.

The ruling is rediculous, the terms unit and platoon are clearly defined and his argument that light infantry gets around this because you pay points for the ability is besides the point. IIRC, it is only chameleoline (sp) that requires you to take it for all squads. Drop troops states that it can be given to ANY infantry unit, not that if one takes it, they all must. Does anyone have a book handy to verify that?

And beyond that, why would you hobble the Gaurd anymore than they already are? They need ever advantage they can get.

Posted By Reecius on 06/14/2007 10:50 AM
I agree with the ruling that you can deepstrike portions of a platoon. I have always palyed it that way, all of my opponants have played it that way and it has never been an issue.

That guy from GW's ruling was really poor IMO. If you have a platoon with an HQ in a Chimera, do they all start off the board in escalation? The rules are clear on the matter.

The ruling is rediculous, the terms unit and platoon are clearly defined and his argument that light infantry gets around this because you pay points for the ability is besides the point. IIRC, it is only chameleoline (sp) that requires you to take it for all squads. Drop troops states that it can be given to ANY infantry unit, not that if one takes it, they all must. Does anyone have a book handy to verify that?

And beyond that, why would you hobble the Gaurd anymore than they already are? They need ever advantage they can get.

I quoted the Drop Troops doctrine in my email to GW (you can find it in my earlier post).

Basically the doctrine just allows any guard infantry unit in the army to arrive via deep strike. You don't actually 'give' it to any units in the army, you just take the doctrine and that allows any guard infantry unit to deep strike.

Since the deep strike rules allow you to place units with the ability in reserve instead of deploying them. . .you get the picture.

My appologies, didnt see that quote earlier.

But I agree. I think that is is very clear and i never read it any other way. I will continue to play that way as well.

Thanks for the information. 

If worse comes to worse I can always make the other squads in the platoon (that I don't want to use as drop troops) light infantry .  Then I'll yell at the tournament organiser "Yo, what now fool!?" move at him aggresively...er... come to think of it I'll just do the first part of my plan.

Thanks.

Afrika, I don't think you will have a problem in the US with drop troops.  I think the GW guy in the UK was just out-to-lunch.  Everyone I have ever discussed Doctrines with agrees that DT platoons can be split up and brought in via DS.  I really wouldn't worry about it too much.  The rules are actually really clear (thankfully) and anyone with half a brain will be able to come to the same conclusion.