Heya Dakkaites. I would appreciate some honest and constructive criticism on some concept art that I have drawn up for an upcoming sculpture.

Just for some background:
I am the same Jeremy who co-owned, painted and sculpted for Ultraforge Miniatures. Sophia and I sold that company a while back. Soph is now a full time nurse and I am still sculpting and painting every day. I have decided to get back into the sculpting world that I miss so much.




The Rage Demon.
I am designing what we call in the shop the "Rage Demon". It is kind of a banal name, I know, but it is really meant to name a category, not a creature. The Rage Demon theme is heavily inspired by the old "shadow and flame" demons of fantasy fiction. This theme has been largley shaped by Tolkien's Balrog, which had been invented somewhere inside 1937 to 1949. Borrowing from Tolkien, Gary Gygax later created and published the Type VI demon, or Balor as it is commonly known, in 1976. Games Workshop borrowed from both Tolkien and Gygax (and also the writings of Michael Moorcock), creating and publishing the Bloodthirster in the 1980's. This is a very common theme for demons indeed! I am now looking to contribute and evolve this theme while adding some new elements as well, the same as Gygax and GW and hundreds of other writers and artists alike.

Some of the old stuff applies to our new demon: Heavily muscled, winged, horned, angry, and ugly. Some stuff I do not want to apply is the traditional whip as a weapon, since I see this weapon as being elegant, fancy and relativity weak. The succubus however, being a popular concept in modern fantasy, really embodies the whip as a weapon. In many ways she has stolen it from the Balrog-types, and in turn has heavily feminized this weapon. I think I am going to save the whip to give to her, down the road.

I would also prefer not to have the demon covered in metallic armor plates, with leather straps and buckles, but still have an "armored look" at the same time. It is sometimes hard for me to imagine an ageless demon using similar armor and weapons that humanoids use to do battle and to protect their mortal flesh. Demons are immortal manifestations, and I am sure they would just manifest weapons and armor before they would go manifesting miners, smelters, leatherworkers, blacksmiths, armorsmiths, assistants to help put the armor on, etc. To help represent this, even the axe itself is a living demon, which requires no smithing as it is a living creature. The demorganic (demonic + organic) armor must feel alive and able to grow forth from a demons body. Everything on the demon is organic and alive, and "manifested", not manufactured. The only exception being the loincloth, which kinda has to be there.

To this end, the traditional metallic armor is replaced with a type of "bone armor", which is caused by the demon's skin calcifying and hardening into living armor. The hair is now replaced with rows of scales, and protruding bone spikes from under the skin's surface.

I would also prefer to not have hair on the creature (even tho there is hair in some of this early concept art) because, coming from an environment full of fire, the hair would probably not be very fitting.



Other artists have inspired me with some starting points. Other people made this stuff, not me. Just inspiration.



Here is the basic pose sketch, forward facing, atop a base full of heavy rockwork. In this version, the demon has the bone spines instead of hair, which I think I prefer.



Here is the starting point for the head, tho the hair will probably be replaced with rows of bone spikes. There is also some "demorganic" shoulder armor.



... and some more calcified bone armor. The rows, or "lames", of the armor have it function the same as traditional armor, but without the straps and buckles.



Here are some axe designs. The axe on the right is a big double sided axe that can split itself into two hand axes. The axe is meant to be intelligent, and has a personality and autonomy of his own. That is why the face in the axe has an eye and a pupil, as opposed to the other faces that are found in the bone armor which remain dead and eyeless.








UPDATE:
This is closer to where we are at now. I still need to update the axe. The wings are not show in this picture.




So please go ahead and post a critique. It doesn't matter if you like the designs or not, so long as you post the reasons why you feel the way you do. I will be back here, adding more drawings and WIP, and incorporating the changes that are suggested in this thread.

If you find pictures online that help you explain your thoughts, changes or ideas, then go ahead and re-post them here. If you can draw, it would be extremely stimulating to see what you come up with!

Please do not hit the quote button when replying to this original post, so this big post does not appear over and over again in the thread. Thanks

If there are any contributors who are vigilant and extra-dedicated to this thread, I would like to consider rewarding them with a complete resin-cast miniature of the Rage Demon after it has been sculpted and manufactured. I could give away three to five miniatures this way. The details of this promotion are still being drafted out, but I will keep you informed. In the meantime, post away and I thank you for your support.

Fantastic stuff, i love the concept, the skull axes are a nice idea and will give painters scope to really work their magic on how they look, definitely a fan of the bone protrusions instead of hair but I can't fault the visage, if it looks that good when sculpted then you've got a winner, another part i quite like as a point of difference, in the reference pics the demon with the oversized lower arms! there's something about it i think is really great you don't ofter see that kind of thing when people do demons and with the calcified bone armour you are considering I feel it could also be a nice part that can work for your sculpt over others and also represent a form of armour? other than that I can't really think of any more feedback :-) you've done a great design! now lets see some updates soon eh!

Nerdfest09

Hey thanks for the feedback! Those oversized forearms and hands in the reference pic make the demon much more Hulk-like and powerful looking. I am going to incorporate that into the design and we will see how it looks. Thanks again.

Ok I would be happy to follow and give my input.

If the face isn't going to be more beastial then the hooves should go. I would prefer to see actual feet if the face has no snout.

Honestly the bull like sculpts that are seen so often is getting pretty boring. I would really like to see a more humanoid sculpt.

Excellent point. If the hooves happened as a result of being so bestial, then why not the face? Ill begin making it more demonic and beast-like to justify the hooves. On the other hand, I will make a more humanoid version to juxtapose the beast version, for comparative purposes. I wonder what more humanoid feet might look like?

Thanks for the input. Great points.

Perhaps all 5 digits, but very long talons? I really like the idea of a more humanoid demon. I feel the bull design has been done a whole lot.

I will be following this closely as I own 6 Ultraforge minis and I plan to own this one also!

This one won't be an Ultraforge. Just done by the same designer.

I agree that the bull-face has been done quick a lot. Even the Lord of the Rings movie avoided it, despite Tolkien's descriptions from the book. I am going to start looking for references for the feet.

... and thanks for your support Johnny Crass! I hope you are pleased with this mini when it is done. Stay tuned in and let me know how you find the design going.

I know but still... It has the same flavor and the same air of epicness

I like where you are attempting to go with this, my thoughts:

1. The concept art needs more bone armor, it doesn't really sell me on the idea that its armor, just calcified skin growths, and the armor itself doesn't really protect any of the areas traditionally considered vital in a human; the entire torso is exposed.

It would be cool if you could extend the bone armor to cover most of the body, but do it in a way that aesthetically mimics the musculature. In other words, the armor covers the vast majority of the creatures body, but the individual 'plates' take on the shapes of the various muscle groups. Hell, who is to say that the bone armor itself isn't the creatures muscle? It is, after all, a demonic entity that follows biological and physical laws different from our own. This also do away with the need for the loincloth, which frankly kinda destroys what you're trying to achieve. This will certainly help make your daemon more unique from the other options in this area already out there.

2. The skull on the axe is too humanoid in appearance for my tastes. A bit more gnarled and warped to give it more the appearance of a demonic entity and less that of a stylized skull would be cool. Also, I suggest you push the demorganic concept further, why isn't the axe in a symbiotic relationship with the rage demon? The axe, IMO, rather than being a simple weapon of demonic sentience held in the demons hand should be a parasitic outgrowth of the demons body itself. What would also be cool is if you could make it look more club/hammer-esque. Incorporate the elements of a few different weapon designs to create something unique, a weapon truly befitting of a daemon, rather than a sentient version of a weapon that humans would build. This is a monstrous entity from the pits of hell, a place so warped that the minds of mortals that witness it are forever shattered, why is it carrying something so easily identifiable?

3. The head... I dont like it. I don't know why, but it might be a bit too traditional in appearance. Its just kinda 'meh' to me. It lacks any sort of feature to set it apart from whats already out there, and it lacks the awesome demorganic armor concept that you've created.

I really like your concept of the daemonorganic, etc. but I dont think you've quite pushed the concept as far as you should. You're still firmly in the realm of the familiar, I think you should take the plunge into the realm of the alien.

Here's a nice concept: http://www.dragoart.com/tuts/pics/7/833/3816/how-to-draw-dragon-legs-arms-and-talons.jpg

and another: http://fullmoonmasks.com/library/accessory-talons.jpg

You may get better balance using 4 toes instead of five.

- nerdfest09, I threw in some bigger forearms and hands real quick in Photoshop to see how it looks. Which do you prefer?


- nquisitorlewis, I quickly threw in one of you references into my concept in Photoshop, just to get a feel for it. I am going to put this in my next batch of designs. Thanks again.


chaos0xomega, great points! I have been guilty in the past of being to mild. It is time to kick things up a notch! Let me work on some designs and get back to you.

My pleasure. It seems like there's a ton of different "counts as" models made by a ton of different companies. All of them follow a very similar design concept. IMO it would be nice to see somebody do something completely outside of that template, but still offer a good alternative.




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A nice bone armor concept:
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs27/i/2008/134/9/0/Bone_armor_sketch_by_darkeyez07.jpg

"do something completely outside of that template, but still offer a good alternative. " is a fantastic mission statement.

I did up some quick Photoshop of a more demonic looking axe. This is just a starting point. Improvement?



Here are some references I just found online for a more demonic looking, while still being humanoid, face. I think I would like the "demorganic" bone to form on the chin and cheekbones of our demon.

The boney face concept would work very well if doing a full suit of bone armor, That third face reminds me to much of the one plastic possessed head.

Looks amazing. I love the organic bone lames -- great concept.

My one bit of constructive criticism is that I hate seeing weapons held behind the head if intended to be used for an overhead strike. It's just not something you ever do with a weapon or tool, whether you're trying to hit someone or just splitting logs, because it's so inefficient -- you have to lift it over your head before it reaches the optimal starting point for the blow (which is directly overhead, assuming that gravity and musculature work the same way for demons as for people).

Good point Ian. I could certainly change up the pose for a more effective striking pose with the axe. Thanks for that.


I am just photoshopping some changes to the axe, trying to make it more demonic. I used the halberd shape for the blade, and still am into the idea of it splitting apart. I'll keep working at this. Oh yeah, I also got the axe melding into the arm flesh now.

I like this face. >;}

http://8bitcoma.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/rage.jpg?w=460

I still like the first head and keep the hooves. I just can not stand a daemon with feet

That is a vote for hooves. I hope everyone can chime in one the hoof vs. toe debate!

What if there was a compromise between the two? The LOTR Balrog has a cool hybrid hoof/claw foot. Would something like this suffice?



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This is kind of a picture of where we are at now, in terms of critique. I will do a completely new sketch of our demon when we get a few more suggestions. Not a bad first day tho! Thanks again.

Jeremy, your past works are AMAZING, I am keepin tabs on this thread. I can't wait for any future stuff you make.

Hey, that means a lot coming from you GG. Thanks bud!

That hybrid is pretty sweet.

We might just want to lean toward the evolutionary in-between of hooves and toes. I think that is what they did with the Balrog.



In contrast to this, the Balor is commonly depicted having human-like toes.

Hi Jeremy,
can't comment much on Daemons, as I usually don't like daemons (but own your big bird daemon ... and treeman BTW). Maybe if the face is less generic. As there are a lot generic big angry daemons around.

Just wanted to say: Nice to hear from you again. Checked your website http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/ since its start and since its redesign, waiting for any activity there. Good that you are returning to sculpting and selling stuff (whatever the reasons were to stop it back then). I will keep checking this thread.

Hey thanks for your support Kroothawk. It is good to be back and designing again.

I have concerns about the face as well. I am going to do some re-designs and we will see how it goes. I think I need that face to get more angular and aggressive looking. Maybe I will do away with the lips and have the teeth coming forth directly from the face, or maybe bone armor on the face? I got work to do!



edit:
Actually, maybe I can start imagining the demon as having "evolved" to being relativity fireproof, in the sense that he can not have any small jutting bits of flesh (like ears, nose or lips, etc.) To this end, he could have a humanoid face but with more demonic elements due to the lack of those bits. It is also in keeping with his fluff.

I'm gonna drum up some references.



edit:
Okay, upon checking out a bunch of lip-less and nose-less demons, I realize that this look is quite severe. Making these changes would dramatically alter the feel of the demon, as he currently is. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? It is also possible to dial down the severe look and make it a bit more subtle, and I feel this may be the way to go.




edit:
So here is my face, but with varying degrees of demonic-ness. I think I like B the best.

Hi Jeremy, I love where you're heading with this and super fast too so it seems! :-) I do prefer the larger forearms and hands, and the idea of the blending into the weapon slightly appeals as well, as far as a face goes for something truly evil and sadistic?... I'll send you a pic of my mum!.... no? o.k how about face C then, it stands out to me as a good mix between beastial savagery and deamonic appearance, perhaps have the two larger side tusks longer or more prominent? even smaller ones under the originals? i'd like to see some concept sketches if you do them?

I can say i'm starting to get quite eager to see this come to fruition, and I'll be purchasing one don't you worry about that! just tell me how and where!

Nerdfest09

Not to have you re-draw the entire concept, but what I might be annoyed with if I bought this model as it is drawn is that some of the fantastic detail on the axe blades might be lost due to the position of the wings. Have you thought about up-swept wings or wings that were back and higher in position and both arms out front? What does the back of the model look like? How close to the back does the blade come?

The concept looks awesome and you are clearly way more talented than I will ever be but just some things to think about. Thanks.

I don't really like the axe head.

If you're going to keep the idea of the hand melting into the axe, why bother having the haft at all? I'd suggest making the hand terminate in an axe-like appendage.

But I do love the bone armor. It looks fantastic.

Really fantastic work here Jeremy. I must admit I like option "D" the best. Just considering your title (rage demon) the other 3 heads look a bit to human and constrained... option D seems to be totally bestial in it's nature and fitting for a creature that is the embodiment of unbound rage.

Love the pose and the work your doing with the axes. "Wow" covers it nicely.

I was going to say mock up C for the head. It looks the angriest

I like your ideas with the axe head (being a skull or skulls). Daemons of this calibur usually have one of 3 weapons, whip, axe and/or sword. However I think it would be a real change to go with a great maul or mace perhaps modeled with the clasic "2 hands over head swinging down" pose with perhaps some form of sadistic glee showing on the face. The faces of the maul could be daemon skulls with horns pointing out of them (possibly in this vein http://www.monstermarketplace.com/spears-swords-daggers-and-more/spiked-skull-mace-larp-weapon).
As for the head I really like the look of the horns protruding from the "cheeks" or chin as in the 4th reference picture. So I'd vote your third drawing as the best of the 4 you have posted.
I can go either way with the legs. Provided they're rough and particularly vicious looking (splintered, asymetrical for hooves, taloned and lean for "feet" perhaps crushing a skull)

Hey,

Firstly, if you ever want to do some concept work/sculpting for Anvil Industry, email me!!

Secondly the daemon..

I like the concept a lot, but am concerned it will jsut end up another balrog/blood thirster clone, which would be a shame..

I found this image-



I think the head could look great with a few reptilian/dinosaur elements...

Reguarding the armour.. The multi layered skulls looks, IMO, a bit silly.. why would the armour be skull shaped...

I did a quick sketch, see the attachement.

Daemons are not human.. so you dont need to follow the normal rules.. I would have a monster thats got a lot of expose musle, with bony armour plates fused directly to the musculature using the same ligaments which connect our muscles to our skeleton.



Like that.. but attaching to external bony armour plates...

Good luck! I look forward to seeing this progress!

AH

I am digging the Balrog feet compromise and for heads either A or D gets my vote

Anvils hammer wrote:Reguarding the armour.. The multi layered skulls looks, IMO, a bit silly.. why would the armour be skull shaped...

It's clearly an evolutionary adaptation, like tiger stripes. When every battlefield is covered with skulls, skull-shaped armor helps you blend in to the background and hide from the enemy.

Jeremy, I really like the direction you're headed with this! My thoughts:

Jeremy wrote:Good point Ian. I could certainly change up the pose for a more effective striking pose with the axe. Thanks for that.


I am just photoshopping some changes to the axe, trying to make it more demonic. I used the halberd shape for the blade, and still am into the idea of it splitting apart. I'll keep working at this. Oh yeah, I also got the axe melding into the arm flesh now.

I like the halberd concept, I'm quite fond of the design second from the left, im still not entirely sold on the split-axe concept though.

As for the facial concepts, I like C, it looks more gnarled and ancient, like this guy is ready to eff you up, whereas B for some reason reminds me more of a cornered animal snarling at its tormentor. I just dont get the same emotions from B that I do C, it might be the eyes though...

And as for foot v. hoof, I would say go hybrid, do something original! I'm thinking you might get a cool concept if you took the traditional cloven hoof shape and elongated it forwards and gave it a 'toe like' appearance, and it would fit with the demorganic concept too!

Hooves, not toes.
Split hooves, to be specific.
I like your original face, but photoshopped face "b" is definitely more feral and intimidating. Faces C & D are too animalistic for me.
I don't like all of the funky angles on the alternate axe heads. Keep it more traditionally shaped, IMO. A funky shaped axe head would be a huge turn off for me and would definitely make me think twice about a purchase.
I do like the face on your "Axe more demonic?" post

I really like the "Demorganic" armor concept. I think you'd be doing this model a service if you didn't give him (a) a "Demorganic" breast plate or (b) huge and amazingly ripped pecs.
If you don't cover his chest/abdomen in sinewy muscular striations, then it should be covered in armor, IMO.

Of course, you could always sculpt extra armor separately and give the purchaser the option to use it.

Great work, and I cannot wait to see it start to take shape physically.

Eric

I like your ideas with the axe head (being a skull or skulls). Daemons of this calibur usually have one of 3 weapons, whip, axe and/or sword. However I think it would be a real change to go with a great maul or mace perhaps modeled with the clasic "2 hands over head swinging down" pose with perhaps some form of sadistic glee showing on the face. The faces of the maul could be daemon skulls with horns pointing out of them (possibly in this vein http://www.monstermarketplace.com/spears-swords-daggers-and-more/spiked-skull-mace-larp-weapon).
As for the head I really like the look of the horns protruding from the "cheeks" or chin as in the 4th reference picture. So I'd vote your third drawing as the best of the 4 you have posted.
I can go either way with the legs. Provided they're rough and particularly vicious looking (splintered, asymetrical for hooves, taloned and lean for "feet" perhaps crushing a skull)

Also a great idea, such scope for menace with a skull faced mace! and the pose would look equally as intimidating as the original idea?

Jeremy wrote:

2nd axe from the left. More how I see a beserker/ rage thing being armed but just a tad longer. More sharp bits for easy reverse strokes and simple punch forwards when parried a blow.


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Jeremy wrote:

For the feet, especially if going over a rock I think the style to the right looks best. When I see hooves on rock I think mountain goat. However, I would like to see more talons at the end - looks a lot more menancing IMHO.


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Jeremy wrote:"do something completely outside of that template, but still offer a good alternative. " is a fantastic mission statement.

I did up some quick Photoshop of a more demonic looking axe. This is just a starting point. Improvement?



Here are some references I just found online for a more demonic looking, while still being humanoid, face. I think I would like the "demorganic" bone to form on the chin and cheekbones of our demon.

With regard to face and the rock/ bone sticky out bits on the face and body, I think you are possibly wondering into Doomsday (Superman) territory - not a massive fan. I think the more bestial/ demonic whilst retaining humanoid characterics is best - I am also a fan of too many sharp teeth. I do like the idea of bone plates protecting the body but I think these would look better skin covered i.e as part of the actual skeleton - like it had been breed for war from the inside up.

I love the concept. Providing no hooves this is a 100% buy for me. I also own several Ultraforge pieces and my only complaint about those was the face being a bit too "nice" and almost bland. Great work and it is awesome to see you back to sculpting.

Fantastic work so far.

I'd prefer not to see traditional hooves, particularly for a beast of this size, posed on a rocky outcropping. Hooves are intended for four-legged animals, where weight distribution is more consistent and controllable. Looking at the image in your first post, I expect the hoof to slide off the pinnacle of the stone. Toes also allow more force to be put into swinging a weapon.

I like the hybrid toes, which retain the non-human look, but still has a practical, flexible use.

I like the inclusion of more bone armour as well. It's a unique aspect that raises your concept above other Balrog clones. It'll also be damned fun to paint I was a huge fan of Rackham's dragons, where as much attention was paid to the skin textures and variations as the overall dynamic pose. It allows for more creativity when painting large models IMHO.

A great silhouette really catches the eye even without a drop of paint, and I love what you have here. The bone textures are all gravy.

Face-wise, I'm torn between B and C. B retains more intelligence, but C personifies "rage". I think C also allows for more interesting textures to tie in with the bone armour.

Oh, and perfect job on the horns. I like that they complement the forward leaning pose, rather than horns that run perpendicular to the head like a bull.

So, yeah. Did I say wow? 'cause, WOW.

Oh, and I want one of those axes. Those look fantastic. reminds me of the face in the Necronomicon from Evil Dead. An axe with personality? Yes please! It does give me another reason for preferring face C; the axe shouldn't be more animated and creepy than the dude wielding it

Guys! SO much good information here. Lots of useful stuff.

I will do my best to address each point in my upcoming designs. There are obviously going to be conflicting opinions, but most of what is being talked about can be directly applied to the design.

Before I crashed yesterday I did a quick sketch for the face, and did a quick color job this morning to help differentiate the bone from the skin. I did slightly different proportions in each, so one has a smaller face, one has curved in teeth, etc. You can pick your fave, or suggest changes to this design if you like.




I still want to apply some tusks to the head and get some thoughts on that. I am also going to start nailing down that weapon, whether it is the trinity of weapons, the joined weapons that splits in two, or the arm-melded axe blades.

I am now going to make a tea and closely read this entire thread over again! I don't want to miss anything. Thanks again.

I approve!For whatever reason I feel drawn to B, but the differences are so subtle I probably wouldnt notice a difference in the end product

The changes are pretty subtle. I think I prefer B.

Jeremy wrote:The changes are pretty subtle. I think I prefer B.

Agreed on B.

Foot wise - I still think a hybrid approach works best, almost lizard like for grip. I think the concept of something like this gripping a horse in its foot whilst pound the living daylights out of its rider.

I cant help thinking that the dynamics of the pose would greatly benefit from a tail flicking out behind to provide balance? Nothing too large or cumbersome. A rather lithe and thin tail, like on a succubus?

brainscan wrote:I cant help thinking that the dynamics of the pose would greatly benefit from a tail flicking out behind to provide balance?

It would indeed help with the balance. A tail would swing the design from more humanoid to more bestial in a way.

To be honest, this is my reasoning with the tail, and you can tell me if Im just being silly...
If our demon has a tail, it would then stand to reason that the "species" known as demon would commonly all have tails, at least in the particular universe our demon lives in. I plan on sculpting several more demons down the road, and a few of the demons I have planned would not suit tails. There is a sexy female demon, whose butt I want to show off! That tail, coming forth from her tailbone, is going to mess things up for her butt cleavage (or B.C.) There is also a big bloated frog-like demon, who will probably not suit a tail as well.

Every demon in this universe has sentient weapons, and demorganic armor (demonic+organic), horns, half-beast legs... and I kind of imagine that the same basic genus of demon had been corrupted and imbued with a distinct demonic tinge, changing their body to reflect the corruption but also resembling the original genus.

Having said that, not all these demons that are planned have wings either, so if that is the case, why cant some have tails and other not, just like the wings?

I'd love to hear more opinions on the matter.


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Anvils hammer wrote:Hey,


I think the head could look great with a few reptilian/dinosaur elements...

Reguarding the armour.. The multi layered skulls looks, IMO, a bit silly.. why would the armour be skull shaped...

I did a quick sketch, see the attachement.

Daemons are not human.. so you dont need to follow the normal rules.. I would have a monster thats got a lot of expose musle, with bony armour plates fused directly to the musculature using the same ligaments which connect our muscles to our skeleton.


AH

Excellent points Anvils hammer. The skulls might look a bit cheesy fantasy right now. I am hoping to warp and distort them more, concealing the obviousness of them being skulls. In the designs I am doing for other demons in this range, they have a lot of faces and mouths and eyes popping out of their skin, and I wanted this demon to have all his eyes and faces look dead.

I like the idea of fusing bone armor to exposed muscle and ligaments. That would really give me the chance to go hyper-detailed with this creatures anatomy. The only issue I have with that is that exposed muscles might look a little too zombie-like and undead if not done right. Ill do some tests and see how this goes.

I also love the gator rows-of-scales. Gator flesh in general would suit the more salamander-type look to this Rage Demon. When I saw the original airbrushed maquette of the Weta Balrog, I thought that they were really using an alligator or other amphibious inspiration to their painting....


Thanks for the input, and extra thanks for the drawing!


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Hey, after looking at that WETA balrog nose I started thinking about some nose variations. These range from the more human to the more demonic look.

B

I like c, though I cant help but feel im subconsciously helping you recreate the balrog

b works pretty well otherwise

I think that is exactly the case chaos0xomega. The WETA Balrog has features that I like, but our demon must have key changes for the sake of originality. I think our cheekbones, lower jaw and other things are original enough as is, and the rest had to be watched out for.

I am leaning toward B personally. I could morph B and C into the original in order to tone down the demonic-ness as well.

well wait, does a demon need nostrils at all? Your call, just making an observation, otherwise I'd go w/ b.

I like head B and the original nose of Nose A. they look similar, but not exactly the same.
I'm not a fan of "slits in the head for nostrils."

Also... Yes. Tail.
I'm thinking it would probably have demorganic armor at the base and some sort of chitinous, barbed or bladed end. Nothing to flamboyant. Just simple and deadly looking.
Of course, if you REALLY want to make it different, you could experiment with a forked or double tail.

Eric

I think I prefer the B nose.

Great job on the face btw. You really did a great job getting away from the typical designs. I really like what's going on with the head.

OT: BTW I have been closely looking at the UF Dragon you did a few years back. What a wonderful model. He may have to get added to my collection.

In a strange way, the nose shape really ties in with how human and how intelligent this creature is. I am working on some new drawings that contain many changes, and should be able to post them tomorrow.

Hey, since our demon currently has no tail.... or whip... why not give him a whip tail? To quote Tenacious D: "Whip-crack went his whippy tail!" If the demon has a weapon in each hand, that becomes three weapons?

We could have the tail slightly thinner, as mentioned before, and perhaps demorganic barbs at the end? The entire spine is boney and spikey and this could easily flow into a tail. What do you think?

I would like to see a tail. I think the daemon has some dragon like elements that will really help set him apart.

I love how you're heading with the head (pun intended). I would just like to comment on the scale: it looks more terrifying if it has a smaller head in proportion to its body. It makes the body look more imposing, and would also fit a rage demon's concept: a smaller brain that is more prone to rage.

Also, cuteness are more relegated to creatures with big heads in proportion with the body. There's that. That's why we find babies cute, and not bodybuilders.

Good point about the head size. Ill begin to scale that down immediately. You are absolutely right about it being on the slightly bigish side. I was wondering why this demon was looking so darn cute!

I just quickly did up some inspiration art. Here you can see the arms are bigger, the face is nastier and a little smaller, there is more demorganic bone armor, and no loin cloth.

I am loving it so far! But what is this I hear about more demons after this one? You sir must hate my wallet with a burning passion.

Jeremy wrote:In a strange way, the nose shape really ties in with how human and how intelligent this creature is. I am working on some new drawings that contain many changes, and should be able to post them tomorrow.

Hey, since our demon currently has no tail.... or whip... why not give him a whip tail? To quote Tenacious D: "Whip-crack went his whippy tail!" If the demon has a weapon in each hand, that becomes three weapons?

We could have the tail slightly thinner, as mentioned before, and perhaps demorganic barbs at the end? The entire spine is boney and spikey and this could easily flow into a tail. What do you think?

I'm imagining a bonelike barbed tail... and it looks awesome (in my head), give it a go?

ALSO, love the new concept art!!! Great direction! Can't wait to see a more detailed concept piece!

Love the changes so far!

Stick with A for the nose. As you say, it adds intelligence. I really dislike nose C, as it looks undead.

For the eyes, I like B. A bit of a squint looks more eeeeeeeevil.

I think the tail could be cool, but I'm not sure about "whip-like". It seems he's all about the strength and bulk, and I'd want to see a tail that echos that, and maybe isn't too long.

I love the bone cod-piece. It works so much better than the loin-cloth. I can never figure out why demons are the epitome of evil and corruption, but get embarrassed at the thought of their bits hanging out. I think this gives the best of both worlds; you can hide the bits but not with an artificial cover.

Excellent points Mastiff. This demon is kinda the pitbull of all the demons, so his tail would not be too long after all.

I will draw it up very bonelike as you suggest chaos0xomega. Almost like the vertebrae from a spine?

I got a few more days working on this one. Thanks for helping me so far, all of you.

I'm late the the party. :(

FEET
The original were cloven, and your modification looks lupine. Lupine is good, if you can reptilian them up any (there's plenty of reference already in the thread I think) it might improve it. I was going to suggest more avian in appearance, but I think now that'd be a waste, for this guy anyways.

HEAD
Definatately prefer with more bone ridges along the jaw and brow. For the three heads B speaks to me to. The only thing I didn't like is the Spine ridge that goes all the way to the brow is almost becoming a third horn. it looks better in the full view, but if there were a way to 'split' the spinal ridge at the base fo the skull and have it roll over the crown of the head into the horns, that might look better.

NOSE
First feels human, second reptialian, third belongs on a bat. If you use traditional leathery wings, that bat nose is going to be even MORE pronounced. I liked nose A because the more reptilian features we add, the less 'human' it looks, and my take was that as a higher order, this was supposed to be one of the more human demons.

TAILS (and demo-lution)
We always want to call demons a race, like humans are a race, and dogs are a race, but they're more of a ecosystem. In biology terms they're closer to a Kingdom than a Genus. This explains why they have tails and wings on some but not others. Remember too that we all have tails, they just aren't as pronounced on some animals as on others. Frogs have them, but they're stubby. Whales have finger bones. that one always blows my mind.

Weapons
Tetsubo



You want a weapon that rends and shreads, not slices.

EDIT: Maybe there's a way to make a two Dual headed axes that can blend into one great maul?
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Dsunchrono/carrikal.jpg

Hey Jeremy, looking great so far.

What about linking two weapons with a chain?

Redbeard wrote:
What about linking two weapons with a chain?

Ax-chucks?

Hi Jeremy, I've missed much so it seems! while reading through the ideas and comments I've been bouncing from love the idea to hmmm not sure :-) then I saw your newest mock up sketch and i'm very excited about this, I was originally going to push for the humanoid nose of A but after seeing the new head design i'm going to say it looks right, especially with the additions of the bone protrusions and tusks! I was/am unsure of the addition of a tail as i thought it would bring it back into 'same 'ol daemon' territory but when I again saw the images all I could think was 'how cool would a tail that looked like a spine would be!' and I can also say to your credit now as I browse the thread the only thing i can think of is exactly how i will paint this! I have a myriad of colour palettes going through my head and techniques that would just suit this guy, and that's the biggest positive you can have with projects like these, if painters WANT to paint him then you have succeeded!

keep it up I'm absolutely itching like a meth addict to see the final pics.

Nerdfest09

I second Bounty's Testubo suggest O_O Nasty looking thing...

I hadn't thought about it previously. Now that someone's brought it up, and I think on it more, I think a, alternate weapon might actually be an interesting way to go.

We're used to seeing demons wield swords and axes. We've even seen *ahem* scythes; but not so many other weapons.

Any chance of you entertaining the idea of a different weapon?

Eric

I like the idea of alternate weapons. Giving the buyer some options allows them to make something a bit more unique.

I really like the head/face of this model http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=mae_blg_bnb_mon_019_000 minus the middle horn. And the use of demorganic armour (bone plates/protrusions) of this model from the same range http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=mae_blg_bnb_mon_013_000

Heya guys. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. I'm homeless for the next few days and am at the mercy of unlocked wireless connections. It is good to see the thread is still going strong, and is full of great ideas.

This demon MUST have multiple weapons! Doing a single weapon for each hand is simply too limiting, especially with all these great options. Since the demon is using two hand weapons currently, how about an axe/axe combo (for the axe lovers out there) and a sword/whip combo (for the Balrog lovers out there) an open hand option for the off-hand, and a single handed epic weapon like that giant tetsubo?

That Krull miniature from Maelstrom games has some fantastic concepts and has some very clean sculpting. That head is very unique as well.

The things I dislike are the amount of armor since, as I said earlier in the thread, a demon might not want to lower itself to using the defensive equipment that is used to protect weak human flesh... because demons have non-weak demon flesh! Plus, I imagine demons as being temporarily summoned into humanoid-dwelling planes, and I have to then imagine a demons metal armor, leather straps, buckles and rivets also being materialized. Plus, I have to imagine lots of smaller demon minions to slaughter cows for leather, smelt steel, pounf plates, etc. and that to me is very human-type stuff to do, not demon. Either that, or the demon is summoned...then the human worshippers, with their giant gantries and cranes, then don their demon with the armor that they made for it.... but to me that would be like putting armor on a god. This, as one can imagine, might even be insulting to the demon.

Plus, when looking at demorganic armor to replace traditional metal armor, it become a real challenge to find out exactly how that particular demon's attributes would create armor. For example, the Rage Demons's skin has calcified to the point of become bone armor, full of teeth and spikes. Almost like barnicles on a boat hull. This is in keeping with his warliek and brutal nature. He probably clawed and mutilated himself to gain even more armor! But what does demorganic armor look like on a fat demon? How about a succubus? The demonic organic armor is just another way to encasulate their unique attributes and is a fun challenge.

This is just my own philosophy and opinion, and we are lucky to have so many talented artists who are able to capture different facets of one topic.

I am not able to sketch up any new stuff yet, but some I will be reset and settle and get some new art out. In the meantime, I can post some artwork up for the next demon? Perhaps?

Jeremy wrote:But what does demorganic armor look like on ... a succubus

Two words:
Thong
Pasties


LOL


Eric

Good to see you didn't disappear back into cyber space.

I recently picked up a UF Treelord. What an awesome miniature. I can't wait to see more of your work.

Jeremy wrote:Good point about the head size. Ill begin to scale that down immediately. You are absolutely right about it being on the slightly bigish side. I was wondering why this demon was looking so darn cute!

I just quickly did up some inspiration art. Here you can see the arms are bigger, the face is nastier and a little smaller, there is more demorganic bone armor, and no loin cloth.

With the "bone loincloth" concept - and this results in the tail/nosexytail thing as well - are these "demons" actual demons, or are they a race that reproduces sexually?


If they're demons - creatures of magic/fey/mana/whatever who don't do the sex (as opposed, to, say the Olympians or Titans of ancient Greece) who don't need genitalia, then just skip the loincloth/crotch protector entirely and essentially give him abd that go down to and including his crotch, where he's smooth like Ken and Barbie - or essentially textured in the same manner that his lower abs are.

When it's time for sexygirldemon, you'll have to decide what you're going for, and I'll feed back then once I've seen the concept(s)- "why would a sex(y) demon wear a g-string?" is something I always wonder. Why would a demon be sexy? Or even have functional genitalia? I guess, to engage in coitus with humans (elf, dwarf, whatever) or other demons. So kinda like succubi

Can they modify their appearance? Is that why he has skulls on his arms and she has giant breasts (potentially)? Could they then have a tail or not at will? Or are they "designed" by a god/diety?


Just a bunch of thoughts that came to mind, as you're looking over functional elements and reasoning why things are the way they are, rather than going for "cool demon, bro!"

Some good points there, scipio.

Personally, I like 'addressing' the crotch situation somehow. Even if they're asexual creatures, giving models the "Ken" treatment down there just doesn't look right. Although our brain knows there doesn't need to be anything there, our eyes just register it as being wrong somehow.

I think the demorganic bone covering (no pun intended) is the best option.

Also, @Jeremy - I'm not a fan of the tail shown in the mock up pic that scipio quoted above. I think the tail should be mostly fleshy, and any demorganic bone covering should be minimal and taper off early.

Eric

scipio.au wrote:With the "bone loincloth" concept - and this results in the tail/nosexytail thing as well - are these "demons" actual demons, or are they a race that reproduces sexually?


If they're demons - creatures of magic/fey/mana/whatever who don't do the sex (as opposed, to, say the Olympians or Titans of ancient Greece) who don't need genitalia, then just skip the loincloth/crotch protector entirely and essentially give him abd that go down to and including his crotch, where he's smooth like Ken and Barbie - or essentially textured in the same manner that his lower abs are.

When it's time for sexygirldemon, you'll have to decide what you're going for, and I'll feed back then once I've seen the concept(s)- "why would a sex(y) demon wear a g-string?" is something I always wonder. Why would a demon be sexy? Or even have functional genitalia? I guess, to engage in coitus with humans (elf, dwarf, whatever) or other demons. So kinda like succubi

Can they modify their appearance? Is that why he has skulls on his arms and she has giant breasts (potentially)? Could they then have a tail or not at will? Or are they "designed" by a god/diety?


Just a bunch of thoughts that came to mind, as you're looking over functional elements and reasoning why things are the way they are, rather than going for "cool demon, bro!"

Demons are typically associated with emotion, whether it be what makes them, what nourishes them, or what drives them, and for humans (and we can assume by extention all humanoid races) little is as emotionally charged as sex. A great bloody demon charging you with a drawn axe may scare you, but the same demon with an enraged phallis is going to produce much deeper emotions, and probably not the good kind! Now we do have to ask "at what point is this acceptable?" and for most of the darkest versions the answer will be three stops ago. That's why there will be some sort of nod to genitalia on the demon model, but it won't be an overt one.

When dealing with the Succubi however, the who reason for them is lust based, and you NEED to have that modeled. The question becomes where do we draw the line between "this is an immortal being who's sole purpose is to elicit a sexual reation" and "there's a 10 y/o standing RIGHT THERE!"

For more wierd fun, I challenge you to find a single Incubbi model. Apparently lusty females is ok, but lusty males is a no-no.

One thing that I always found intersting is just how symetrical all deamons seem to be, despite there being no need. They don't quite follow regular physics and their strength doesn't come from the size of their muscles right? Having one arms be bigger than the other, one side of their face be covered entirely in bone armour, or having their torso's proportions distorted by similar growths would make the Daemon scaryer and set him apart from convention.

I really like the look of the ridged face btw, and the bone armour concept is very interesting and would make for a very fun time painting.

I know the weapons have been discussed to death, but would a melding of weapon and flesh work for your concept? Its not like the Daemon needs his hands for anything but weapons, and you could take the "things growing out of me to make me more BA" concept. I imagine this would look something like a tyranid bonesword but less slick and more brutal. Maybe an Uruk-Hai looking weapon (like in the movie, with a spike at the end)

The idea behind this thread is really cool. Being able to add to the discussion over a concept for a sick model like this is almost too good to be true. Holding my breath for the final product.

The problem with large scale asymmetry (appendages, etc) is that it just looks goofy. What would scare the Hell out of us in real life is not the same as that which we imagine in our game world.
I think asymmetrical appendages would be a bad call, and I'd like to go on the record again for being against fused weaponry. That said, I do think you've got a good idea re: partial facial demorganic armor.


Eric

Bounty wrote:
Demons are typically associated with emotion, whether it be what makes them, what nourishes them, or what drives them, and for humans (and we can assume by extention all humanoid races) little is as emotionally charged as sex. A great bloody demon charging you with a drawn axe may scare you, but the same demon with an enraged phallis is going to produce much deeper emotions, and probably not the good kind! Now we do have to ask "at what point is this acceptable?" and for most of the darkest versions the answer will be three stops ago. That's why there will be some sort of nod to genitalia on the demon model, but it won't be an overt one.

When dealing with the Succubi however, the who reason for them is lust based, and you NEED to have that modeled. The question becomes where do we draw the line between "this is an immortal being who's sole purpose is to elicit a sexual reation" and "there's a 10 y/o standing RIGHT THERE!"

I say, in this regard, the artist should produce the model they want to produce, and allow those purchasing the model to take responsibility to display it where appropriate. There are no 10-year-olds in my house, and I'm not offended by genitals. Honestly, a rage daemon with no clothes and large testicles would be pretty badass. These models aren't being designed for children, I see no reason to limit them based on what children might see - assuming the artist is comfortable taking them in that direction.

MagickalMemories wrote:The problem with large scale asymmetry (appendages, etc) is that it just looks goofy. What would scare the Hell out of us in real life is not the same as that which we imagine in our game world.

As an artistic exercise, my wife and I tried to envision critters without recognizable characteristics. It's really hard to do, because we (humans) need to key on things we understand. But if you look around, in all the sci-fi out there, aliens are bipedal. They've got eyes, mouths, and so on.

Redbeard wrote:
As an artistic exercise, my wife and I tried to envision critters without recognizable characteristics. It's really hard to do, because we (humans) need to key on things we understand. But if you look around, in all the sci-fi out there, aliens are bipedal. They've got eyes, mouths, and so on.

I always found that hilarious about aliens in movies. Being which evolved on other planets looking like humans bar skin colour and a few ridges.

When I mentioned assymetry I meant taking the armour plating growths a step further and letting them unbalance the model slightly. Then again, Deamons are manifestations of our fear and a perfect warrior with a bestial visage is the face of war. Btw, I know this is a large daemon character model, but it would be sweet to have bloodletters that look like this instead of tongue-out lizard-people.

It is always a thrill to see a new batch of great thinking when I come back to this thread. Lots of stuff to go over.

asymmetry: I think that demonkind is not limited to having symmetrical proportions. Demons are probably warped and mutilated to all degree. Having said that, all degrees of disproportion, from human to completely wonky, are another way to provide distinction from one of my demons to the next. The Rage demon might have more "normal" proportions, only because his design ancestors (Balrog, Balor, etc.) are usually proportioned this way. The rage demon however will be more hulk-like, or ape-like in stature. This is to provide juxtaposition with, say for example, a vulture demon or a great big fat demon. In fact, the great big fat demon will probably have the most asymmetrical proportions, like the "Jailer" from Darksiders. When one demon is viewed next to the other, by having a range of disproportion there will be a nice variety and distinction.

genitals: One could consider a demon a kind of golem. Instead of being made out of clay or stone or iron, a demon is made from pure evil, with a tinge of their own demonic distinction. A golem is fashioned by its creator, and is probably not equipped to reproduce. A demon is not fashioned by a craftsmans hands, but rather by the perceptions and beliefs of the followers of said demon. The demon is summoned instead of created, and BAMF! it all of the sudden shares many of the physical properties and attributes of what the worshippers dreamed up. To this end, the succubus would have genitals, much to the delight of the followers of the succubus. The rage demon might have a genital region full of bone armor. The great big fat demon might have a mouth where genitals should be, as a mockery to humanoid forms. That is just my current design philosophy. I think the Rage Demon in his last batch of concept art has a bit too much junk in his junk, and I will begin designing him more specifically.

If we were really going for it, every demon we design would have nightmarish mockeries of genitals, but we have to think about an all-ages game environment in stores and in homes. Having said that, we plan to make our succubus a little.... more spicy... you could say.

esthetic philosophy demonica: In this universe, there are probably very old demonic deities. Demons spawn forth, but are shapeless entities in lowers planes. When a group of cultist humans begin to worship an old demonic god, the offspring of that god are shaped by their beliefs of how the demon looks, behaves, etc. It is kind of like the demon of rage is the halfway point between what the old god is and what the human worshippers perceive him to be. When the humans are successful in summoning a demon, it pops out containing a lots elements that the human worshippers had invented, like artwork, poetry, runes, glyphs, decoration, etc. If the totem for the rage demon was a pole made of skulls, topped with a severed bull head, then that would explain why the rage demon has so many skull-like shapes in his bone armor and horns on his head.

What I am hoping to accomplish is to create the demon the way WE like it the best, and then reverse engineer a culture for the cultists who summoned him.

hands melding into weapons: The only reason why I am currently against making the weapons actual extensions of the arms is because the weapon itself is a demon. The demon-weapon his conscious, ancient, super-intelligent, and autonomous. It has a different personality to the demon, and communicates telepathically. The demon weapon is the same shapeless energy on the lower planes that became shaped by a cultists imaginings of how their god's weapon would be. To this end, not joining the weapon to the demon would help us to consider them as separate entities. However, if that demonic weapon had a tounge or feelers.... then those could grasp and interact with the demons hand and arm.

Thoughts?

Bounty wrote:
Demons are typically associated with emotion, whether it be what makes them, what nourishes them, or what drives them, and for humans (and we can assume by extention all humanoid races) little is as emotionally charged as sex. A great bloody demon charging you with a drawn axe may scare you, but the same demon with an enraged phallis is going to produce much deeper emotions, and probably not the good kind! Now we do have to ask "at what point is this acceptable?" and for most of the darkest versions the answer will be three stops ago. That's why there will be some sort of nod to genitalia on the demon model, but it won't be an overt one.

Perhaps not sex, but testosterone - would a demon have/need/use testosterone? I don't see any need at all for an enraged phallus unless the figure is specifically an incubi. I've never had wood while raging and breaking things, personally. Perhaps great big testicles to produce all that testosterone?

When dealing with the Succubi however, the who reason for them is lust based, and you NEED to have that modeled. The question becomes where do we draw the line between "this is an immortal being who's sole purpose is to elicit a sexual reation" and "there's a 10 y/o standing RIGHT THERE!"

Well, he didn't say he was making a Succubi. He said "sexy girl demon" which I extrapolated to the QA: "Why boobs? - I guess it must be/has to be a succubi!"

Succubus. Demon girl. The actual name and origin will be shaped in a new thread, coming soon.

On a base level, she is sleek boob'ed demon.... who is the product of the worshippings of a deranged and perverted humanoid sex cult.

Since the group of cultists are primarily heterosexual males, the demon popped out a female. Lots of other details will be discussed and decided upon.

We will have that new thread started in a few days.

Melded Weapons: Ok, so the weapons are also Daemonic entities so should be entirely separate. How does this fit with the human worshippers and the way in which Daemons are created? I mean, if you're worshiping a god of rage and summoning his deamon followers, would you also be thinking or and summoning a daemon weapon, or does the daemon itself summon it?

I'm only asking because you said that you couldn't imagine the daemons manufacturing anything, so the most direct way to get weapons would be the same way that they get armour, by mutation. I guess I don't see why armour is bony growths, but weapons are all metalic and separate daemons.

Also, in my mind, deamonic weapons are forged and then a daemon is bound into them (against which they rage eternally).

Genetals and Daemon Sexuality: I think that the bony jock thing works perfectly with the idea behind these daemons. When you think of a monstrous warrior you think of his terrible visage and horrid weapons. The wings and flowing musculature are also a part of the image since they make him more terrible and a better killer. Since the entity is humanoid there is a vague sense of where genitals would go, but its not at all the focus of the worship (unlike with a Sucubus/Incubus).

Deities: You mentioned that this setting has old, established deities from which the form of the daemons is in part derived. Are these the four warhammer chaos gods we're talking about here or some other (no doubt with similarities) Pantheon of evil. Maybe specifying what the rage deity is exactly could help in determining the deamons' form.

On an unrelated note, why do only evil gods have daemons? Are angels just daemons of a "good god"? Would an opposing Pantheon of more benevolent deities have their own set of daemonic (in this case daemon just being some being from another realm) minions and summoning.

Edit: Just to make this not a purely philosophical post: I don't like either the hoofs or the hybrid hooves since both feel like impractical ways for the daemon to get around. I know hooves are an established daemonic trait but there's a reason why only quadrapeds have them. There's no way to actually balance on two of them. Now daemonic Centaurs, THAT would be awesome with hooves

This is shaping up to be my personal view of the perfect demon! I don't really have anything to add at the moment other than encouragement!

What size are you looking at making this?

InyokaMadoda, the creature should fit onto a 60x60 base roughly, and should be very large while still being balanced, proportioned and playable in a tabletop wargame.

Great stuff Powerclaw. For the weapons, I just did up a bunch of sketches including melded, forged and demorganic weapons.


I agree that if the weapon is a separate entity that it would have to be imagined of and manifested in the same way as the demon/god. Considering that cults do not usually worship weapons, this does not exactly stay in keeping with the intelligent weapon thing. A forged weapon, or a demorganic non-intelligent bone weapon, or a melded weapon would make more sense.

So, which will it be? I am really stuck on the weapon and would love to get more feedback.

Item I looks amazing!!!

I prefer the first set A-D.

I think a Daemons will power is enough to drag a weapon through with him.

G, H, I, any of these fit the estetic perfectly.

Honestly, I don't like ANY of them. In all seriousness, anything in your recent upload would put this firmly in my "not interested" category.

I like the axe. I like the idea of a a tetsubo, too.
Those "meat cleaver" looking weapons and the fused weapons, though... they just don't work for me.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, I don't like ANY of them. In all seriousness, anything in your recent upload would put this firmly in my "not interested" category.

I like the axe. I like the idea of a a tetsubo, too.
Those "meat cleaver" looking weapons and the fused weapons, though... they just don't work for me.

Eric

Not even in Perspective?

Nice one Bounty! That really helps add perspective.

The original thought behind the basic weapon shape was to make a sword/cleaver/axe. I thought this captured the brutal chopping attack of the Rage Demon. He probably would not stab. He would probably just pound away at his foes in a complete rage.

In this respect, a giant bludgeon like the tetsubo would make perfect sense.

I am open to the idea of the metal forged and bound weapon, which is forced through and carried along by the will of the demon itself.

Perhaps check out the new thread I opened up on the Giger demon and see if that helps form your thoughts on the weapons that demons use in our universe. I am hoping we can develop a consistency behind the rationale of these demons and their demonic weapons.

Perhaps try a Club/Tetsubo with those 'Spine" effects from G spiraling up the central shaft, and the spikes, as on the Tips of H, jutting randomly out of the spine as it winds it's way to the tip. I may not be able to 'Shop that up, but I'll try.

A comment on the asymmetry in regards to the organic bone armor. If you wanted to go that route it could be done with heavier bone armor along one arm, in the way gladiators sometimes have only one arm and shoulder completely armored.

I love the idea of the tetsubo as a pure smashing weapon (nothing says rage more than smashing). You could even make it look like its made of he same bony material as the armor to visually tie it in.

Best I can do on this computer in the time I have. I think it gives a pretty solid idea of where I'm going though. The only big change would be narrow the bottom the weapon, so it's more conical than brick-on-a-stick.

Personally I really like the H weapon, or the original versions on here of the sentient weapon that would split in half.

I think that one problem in miniatures is that a great idea can often not translate particularly well when it's smaller. What I mean by that is that because any detail is, by definition smaller, it can get almost confusing when something elaborate is tried like have a weapon that is a melded part of the arm and it's easy for it to look like the model is poorly sculpted at that point. I'm not sure if I've explained that particularly clearly though...

Bounty wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, I don't like ANY of them. In all seriousness, anything in your recent upload would put this firmly in my "not interested" category.

I like the axe. I like the idea of a a tetsubo, too.
Those "meat cleaver" looking weapons and the fused weapons, though... they just don't work for me.

Eric

Not even in Perspective?

Honestly, no. Not at all. The fused weapons just don't work for me, and meat cleavers make me think Nurgle... and I still don't like 'em.

That tetsubo you mocked up was interesting, but I'd need to see a cleaner version. If it's "too" different from a traditional weapon, I don't think it would work for me.
As odd as it sounds, my personal preferences are for a weapon that looks closer to the traditional version or no weapons at all. Just bare fists/claws.

Now, to check out the G-Demon.


Eric

Lots of good stuff to consider here... but I am still stumped on the weapon. The Tetsubo seems to have a strong appeal. I could offer a badass demorganic bone tetsubo as a weapon, along with a fused weapon alternative? The other hand can have a fused option and an open hand option? I dunno. At any rate, I will finish up some weapon designs for Tuesday. By then this thread will have drifted into necroville.... but Ill post designs as soon as I got them made.

Jeremy wrote:Lots of good stuff to consider here... but I am still stumped on the weapon. The Tetsubo seems to have a strong appeal. I could offer a badass demorganic bone tetsubo as a weapon, along with a fused weapon alternative? The other hand can have a fused option and an open hand option? I dunno. At any rate, I will finish up some weapon designs for Tuesday. By then this thread will have drifted into necroville.... but Ill post designs as soon as I got them made.

So far your top votes seem to be Tetsubo, Dual Axe, and Graft. So that would be 4 arms minimum, 6 of you can afford to add that.
* Tetsubo Right
* Axe Right
* Open Left
* Graft Axe Left (Or graft axe-hand (H) )
* Graft Axe Right
* Axe Left

That is an accurate breakdown. If the pieces are separated by the hand(wrist), I could then do 6 I think, but that is going to jack my production costs a bit. I want to keep costs down, but offering weapons-sold-separately is kinda douchey, so Id rather just include them all and bump up a price a few bucks.

I wonder if the left and right axe are demorganic or metal forged?

So, umm, I'm just going to jump in here about the whole genitalia/sexuality thing (do we have any other females here?)

It seems that it's already been agreed upon that there are going to be boobs for the succubus because succubi are demoness' of seduction. 'Course we have to have a succubus, because boobs sell. Now the question is if we've got a demon of rage right here, why must the female counterpart have to be a succubus? You could have a female rage demon counterpart. God knows that us women can be just as equally terrifying when set off. She would have to have smaller breasts because they're really not all that comfortable for rage type activity and they tend to get in the way.
But back to the current subject, the male rage demon here. Being understood that this demon would be more of a demon that encompasses the aspect of rage, I can understand an extremely masculine, aggressive looking bugger. He's big, he's extremely muscular, and he's very intimidating that way. But the other part that makes a male a "male" is the cojones. If we've got a succubus with big breasts, why can't I have my demon with a big ? But I understand that this is a rage demon, not an incubus. From here I can understand that this current design without male bits does a very good job of portraying a rage demon, and I can deal with a bony loincloth or covering. I'd prefer a more tasteful style than a Ken look down there. I swear it's just that these cultists of course have to summon some succubus but obviously not an incubus, it'd be too sexually intimidating. And I understand, it's a men's world out here. As Bounty mentioned, where's the incubi? I NEED MY (humor here, please don't think I'm some sort of sex crazed female)

As for the tetsubo, I think that would be an awesome weapon. The graft hand axe is an interesting concept, but I find it hard to be used effectively, especially in that sketch with the way it's positioned on the hand.

Yeah, the philosophy is basically that rage is bestial, primal fury. Teeth, muscle, etc. Male genitals actually have a power function, historically, but it it invoked potence and authority, not mindless destruction. Likewise, females weren't usually associated with raw violence, probably because they usually lacked the mass and muscle development of males. Of course, exceptions existed, such as the Amazons, but tended to be remarkable as an exception.

I would suggest that any demon of power beyond sheer destruction should have alot of phallic references as it indicates its potence and, psychologically, what his followers are seeking.

One observation I have is that I would expect a rage demon to have more hair and be more bestial. Shaven bodies historically are more associated with nobility or prostitutes. Shaggy, blood matted fur and hair is much more primal. The bones look more reptilian, which, while fierce, indicate more cold cunning the rage. To that end, I like the more hunched posture as it looks more bestial.

Perhaps think more minotaur/werewolf/satyr human beast transition and less draconic?

VERY GOOD

Just a thought, and not even necessarily something I'm suggesting. Just "spit-balling":
Does he have to be wielding a weapon at all? Why can't HE be the weapon?
I mean, I can't think of any more show of rage than to tear a person apart with your bare hands.


Eric

Have to say for the tail I'd love to see a whip-like Thagomiser (the technical term for the spikes on a Stegosaurus tail) as I think that would look awesome and really cement organic death dealing armour into place.......

jmurph wrote:... Male genitals actually have a power function, historically, but it it invoked potence and authority, not mindless destruction. Likewise, females weren't usually associated with raw violence, probably because they usually lacked the mass and muscle development of males. Of course, exceptions existed, such as the Amazons, but tended to be remarkable as an exception.

Remember that Amazon translates to 'one breasted' because in the orginal legends they used thier sword to remove the left breast, this being pretty much required to fight in the greek phallanx style. It also serves as a pretty graphic representation if the forsaking of beauty for power, rejecting that which made them women to become as men were.


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Jeremy wrote:That is an accurate breakdown. If the pieces are separated by the hand(wrist), I could then do 6 I think, but that is going to jack my production costs a bit. I want to keep costs down, but offering weapons-sold-separately is kinda douchey, so Id rather just include them all and bump up a price a few bucks.

I wonder if the left and right axe are demorganic or metal forged?

If we use the 6 hands I suggested earlier the Grafts would be Demorganic, and the Normal could be metal.This way no matter which you want (Metal, Demorganic, Grafted, Axe, Tetsubo, one weapon or two) there's a way to build it that doesn't include the others.

In that sense then, if we define male and female by physical traits, demons shouldn't have any gender label applied to them as you would with humans. Objectively, Amazons are still women, but our social perspective would define her as losing her femininity. A succubus would be a representation of seduction and thus represent female physical traits related to that aspect, which would include breasts.
With rage, I feel that any phallic references would in effect detract from it. The embodiment of rage would be something of destruction.

I would suggest that any demon of power beyond sheer destruction should have alot of phallic references as it indicates its potence and, psychologically, what his followers are seeking.

My feeling is that phallic references symbolically represent more of domination than rage. At this point, I feel as if I'd be beating a dead horse over whether rage and domination would go together and/or what aspect of rage we're representing here. I'll leave that to the artist.

I'd also like to see a more bestial demon, but I'm really loving how the current sketches are turning out, I really can't wait to see what it ends up as

itsacoyote wrote:In that sense then, if we define male and female by physical traits, demons shouldn't have any gender label applied to them as you would with humans. Objectively, Amazons are still women, but our social perspective would define her as losing her femininity. A succubus would be a representation of seduction and thus represent female physical traits related to that aspect, which would include breasts.
I'd also like to see a more bestial demon, but I'm really loving how the current sketches are turning out, I really can't wait to see what it ends up as

Pretty much this.

I'm used to the artists start point because I use a close variant to it when i develop fantasy setting cosmologies. A demon in his natural form isn't bound into those dimentions of reality which humans readily precieve. The act of drawing the 'force' that is a demonic essence into our realm requires that the force be given form, and that form is determined by those drawing the force down. The force has a gender in as much as the concept of the force would have one.

Nice. I am a big fan of Demons with exposed muscle tissue.

Mate...you have some serious talent...good luck

For more demonic creature ideas, recommend checking out Paul Richards web page. He was a designer on Quake and Darksiders and did a lot of the design for different demonic characters in those games.
http://www.autodestruct.com/
Word of warning, NSFW artwork within.

Jeremy wrote:
Other artists have inspired me with some starting points. Other people made this stuff, not me. Just inspiration.

I would love to see something along the lines of the first pic in that row. No wings. No weapons. No armor. Just something that is a mass of pure demonic muscle.

itsacoyote wrote:My feeling is that phallic references symbolically represent more of domination than rage. At this point, I feel as if I'd be beating a dead horse over whether rage and domination would go together and/or what aspect of rage we're representing here. I'll leave that to the artist.

I'd also like to see a more bestial demon, but I'm really loving how the current sketches are turning out, I really can't wait to see what it ends up as

My thoughts exactly! I think we can all agree that this effort shows enormous talent and thought.

Just stumbled across this post, and I have to say great work man. I have a thought for you for a weapon that rarely sees any heed paid to it, the Macuahuitl. It is the Aztec wooden sword with the obsidian chips on the edges. Very brutal and it could be easily done in the demorganic nature.

commissarbob wrote:Just stumbled across this post, and I have to say great work man. I have a thought for you for a weapon that rarely sees any heed paid to it, the Macuahuitl. It is the Aztec wooden sword with the obsidian chips on the edges. Very brutal and it could be easily done in the demorganic nature.

I hadn't heard of this, so I had to look it up and came up with the following images. I would have thought that something like this would suit quite well, maybe with bone rather than obsidian.

commissarbob wrote:Just stumbled across this post, and I have to say great work man. I have a thought for you for a weapon that rarely sees any heed paid to it, the Macuahuitl. It is the Aztec wooden sword with the obsidian chips on the edges. Very brutal and it could be easily done in the demorganic nature.

Yeah, that works well too. I know the Lizardmen used to have a lot of these, not sure if the new models do.

Actually, the Macuahuitl would look really good. You could even use something that looks more bony instead of the obsidian and metal for the rest for the Deamorganic look. It looks like a slab of metal that grew teeth and would really support the rage theme.

Although I could personally testify that a woman's rage can indeed be more terrifying than a man's, creating one of each raises the question of whether they are a race that can mate, etc. Although in some fiction Daemon just means "something from another plane" and these creatures are actually completely normal beings back on their planes of existance, I don't think that's the idea here. One way to play it off would be to have a male daemon of rage and a female daemon of hate/swift death/assassination or some such. She would be a female warriors of infinite cold hatered who kills without mercy but with infinite precision. A perfect warrior/hunter instead of a brutal beast. She would be the one with a slim figure and sexual traits not emphasized. Just enough to let you know you are facing a woman's infinite capacity for malice

Using the tail as a weapon speaks of finesse unless its a brutal club on a fairly shot tail to crush skulls.

Hello,
I just found today these posts from Jeremy while I was searching for the whereabouts of Ultraforge with Sophia and Jeremy. I tried to read up all, but it seems Jeremy did not show up here for a few months. Has one more informations how his projects are going?

hmm just and idea here and yes im just spitballing many of you will probably slate me for it but maybe when you look at the ogres from dragonage facially and with there horns also maybe having some kind of axe/maul weapon as the REASON the demon exists and have maybe barbed bone chains that have attatched to the demons arms as if he was once mortal who picked up the weapon and the rage of the demon flowed into him and the weapon controls him also with the bone armour plates maybe have half of the chest and the one shoulder with almost like a raised bone pauldron like a demonic gladiator im not a fan of the multiple sets of arms idea seems to goro from mortal combat'ish also i liked the design of the feet where it was more dragon/lizard/lupine in contrast to the combo of hoof/toes if a demon has actual demonic feet you can imagine him pinning his victim down with a foot before taking his head as a trophy ....and also maybe include a belt of some sort that has trophys on it skulls and vertebrae and so on but of course just an idea here

I reckon if you're shooting for the demorganic form, I reckon a symbiotic relationship with his weapons would be best. Say, along the lines of the villain from the latest Men In Black movie?

The growth-type thing in the sketches above don't look right.