So here they are, the November releases for Darklands from us here at Mierce Miniatures - and what releases, dark age fantasy fans! For the ever-willing Fomoraic there is the obvious follow-up to the Srónax champion Órorqaan, namely his unit's standard-bearer, Qqolaan; for the unpronouncables of the Brythoniaid there is the Dyndraig trooper Gwyddol, who comprises a part of the Pendyndraig Galhwch's unit; for the serpenty Khthones we have Issithill, a Gorgonar standard-bearer who answers to Vilthiss, his unit champion; and finally we have the frankly awesome Carrowek of Carn Dhu, an Ysian War-Drune of quite healthy proportions who will lead your armies to death, destruction or victory, and quite possibly all three. Don't say we didn't warn you!
I really enjoy some of these miniatures, but reading the fluff about these guys really put me off with all the different names and stuff. I just stopped after a few scentences.
Pretty sure it is a Welsh inspired dialect right? Most of that language seems to make very little sense to me, I can understand why it was used, doesn't stop it from being horrible reading material though!
Figures are incredible as always, pretty near every sculpt for this range has impressed me to no end, great transitions from sketch to final model.
"Qqolaan, again, is another unit member, this time a Srónax who pledges allegiance to the Fomoraic and the Fíorfomor Baalor, just like his Gultain Órorqaan."
or...
"Carrowek of Carn Dhu, a warlord for your Ker-Ys warband with the emphasis on Ker: for Carrowek is a Kernowek, a Cornishman, as well as being a War-Drune."
i think the first person to comment on these each time there is a new relese should be able to rename them for use on this forum somthing along the lines of brawny brian..rhino ron....snaky steve ....and pretty marion ?
Probably best to buy these on your credit card for security reasons. At least then if the assets of this company are moved to help prop up other companies you can at least get your money back !
I guess the descriptions might make more sense when the names actually mean something to us. I don't think it makes much sense to a non-wargamer when discussing 40k-fluff all too many names and whatnot.
oldandcrabby wrote: Probably best to buy these on your credit card for security reasons. At least then if the assets of this company are moved to help prop up other companies you can at least get your money back !
We're an independent company that has purchased the miniatures range and production equipment from Maelstrom Games Ltd, the range and product was independently valued and although the Mierce website is recent (it took a while to make, same with our premises move- premises solicitors can be glacial at times!) , we have been trading under our name for some months now, indeed any retailer/distributor that has ordered from us in the last six months will tell you that! - We have moved out of the Maelstrom premises and now have our own separate (we're a good 10 miles away from Mansfield) production facility that is much larger and better suited than to our needs than before. This will also increase our production rate - You wouldn't believe the cramped conditions we were in before, and we now have natural daylight!
Also - we manufacture all of our product in-house. We don't have to order stock in from other mini companies. Everything you see on our site -we make ourselves!
What this means to our customers is that they can order from us without fear - We have healthy stocks of our miniature range, and anything we don't have (some busy lines are currently out of stock) we can cast them up! All of the moulds and casting equipment, as well as the production rights are ours. Also, just as importantly the vastly experienced production staff all work for us so there will be no dip in the high quality of our miniature range. We make new moulds every day of the week to ensure that we don't cast from tired moulds. At the mo we have piles (well bins, it's neater and safer!) full of casts that we are packing up and then adding into stock. All of the packaging is also re-branded now. It's all Mierce Miniatures branding and also the Darklands stuff carries the game logo as well. This will also make our retailers happy as they get nice, swanky, new (full colour, high quality) packaging to display in their store (and there's no web addy for a rival retailer on each box anymore!).
We're keen to work alongside retailers of all kinds (FLGS to internet only) to bring our miniature range to gamers across the globe. Indeed, at the moment we have distributors in the USA, Germany and the UK and retailers across the globe. So retailers can order directly from ourselves, or a closer distributor for convenience.
We have no production issues at the moment (bar being a little behind due to the move wiping a few days off of production, but we've coped very well with that!). Also, this past week has seen sculpts arrive from Thomas David, Stephane N'guyen, Roberto Chaudon and you may well be pleased to know that Daniel Cockersell has almost finished his latest masterpiece! The sculpts we have, in-hand at the moment run waaaaay into 2013, sculpts are currently in progress for 6-12 months time. We've a healthy release schedule and if push came to shove we needn't commission another mini for months and would still have releases every month for over a year! We have been planning the game for some time, and I believe you will all be surprised when you see Stefan Kopinski's awesome full colour double-page artwork for the front cover - It will knock your socks off!
Regarding the names. Yes, some of them can seem odd. They are all based on old dialects though - Imagine how confusing Clan Skyre for Skaven may have been for a new wargamer - or a Cryxian Liche Lord!
Our game system will be set in the Dark Ages of northwest Europe. It will take a lot of myths and legends of that era and bring them alive. A lot of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon mythology and names look different to how we spell names now (never mind the Welsh, they're still at it!), but it's a case of familiarity (or un-familiarity as it were). We'll certainly work on some phonetics to help reduce confusion - not to mention the odd internet argument (hands up who's had an argument about how to pronounce Tzeentch before?) *hand up*
Some of the names/factions you see are heavily based on real life civilisations /characters. Indeed one of our sculptors (the mighty JAG! Widely regarded by his peers as the best in the business at the 28-35mm scale) is currently working on our King Penda mini - This guy was a badass (Penda, not JAG, he's a really nice guy! )and was a Mercian King who was infamous for his bloodthirsty nature - In fact around 1400 years ago he fought a battle not 3 miles away from Mierce HQ where he killed a rival king. The dead of that battle (around 300 men) are buried under the church a stone's throw away from my daughter's primary school! We're looking forward to bringing some legends from the Dark Ages alive (and adding our own of course), we're especially looking forward to adding a strong, dark fantasy twist to ancient legends. And being from the Derbys/Notts/S.Yorks area of the UK all of our staff are Mercians - Mierce ( phon~ 'Mer-sha') is a word used to describe people from Mercia! Also there's a local army regiment with a proud history, our roots grow long and deep around here, as do the legends! Robin Hood was but a local fop compared to some of the nutters from the Dark Ages!
My name is Tim Fisher by the way I'm the Studio and Production manager for Mierce Miniatures and I run things here on a day to day basis. I'm also our master mould-maker and every mould we make has been made by my loving hand so it meets my (very) high QC standards. I'm rather proud to say that every miniature we make has, in some way had my direct involvement. I don't cast much anymore - I have staff for that! But I would happily put the quality of our casting up against any others in the business (I trained our casters myself). If anyone has any queries about our range or want to shoot the breeze about this post (which started off short, I promise!) feel free to e-mail me on timfisher@[pleasenospam]mierce-miniatures.com (you will need to remove the brackets and the no spam bit ) I'm not able to browse forums all day, every day but I do get a sharp bleep from my Blackberry when I get mail so that's the best contact!
Tim, With the utmost respect for the miniatures production part of the business, I couldn't let your post go unresponded to. While you may technically be an independent company, you're still a part of the "Maelstrom Family" as you're owned wholly by Rob Lane of Maelstrom - who spent some time here as "Maelstrom Games" as I'm sure you're aware posting pics of the new figures including links to the Mierce website.
Until we see what happens to Maelstrom, and a lot of money and product owed to consumers and suppliers in our hobby, with the potential to do some real damage to some of the smaller creditors/companies, I can't honestly order from you in good faith or even buy your product from other retailers. Which is a shame, as you do have some very nice sculpts (and I already own quite a few).
The Drune is a fantastic figure, right up till one looks at his ridiculous axe, which looks like it belongs in some silly anime video game for tweens rather than a game that bills itself as "dark fantasy".
Not sure I get the hairy rhino guy but it's quite competently executed.
I've never been a fan of the Khthon line, but this one is well sculpted. I like the touch of having banners on it's back that would be vertical depending on the snake's posture, though once again specifying they be human skin is a bit silly. At least I didn't see any boobs on them.
The Gwyddol is a thing of beauty, both in excellently sculpted movement and in general design. I thought the note on the drawing about the armor having been repaired was an interesting thought, and I'd love to know how this could be conveyed through sculpting or painting.
Like the new minis but not sure I like the sound of the switching companies names when it's clearly all owned by the same guy. That seems to me like it's all about trying to hide the cash under the Mierce mattress.
Mierce Miniatures wrote: We're an independent company that has purchased the miniatures range and production equipment from Maelstrom Games Ltd
Noone is disputing that Mierce purchased the line on paper. Who owns Mierce though?
Rob Lane wrote:Additionally, having Mierce Miniatures separate from Maelstrom Games makes things a lot neater for myself as Managing Director of both companies and enables us to pursue funding for Mierce Miniatures as a creative new manufacturer, rather than part of an older retail company.
That just smacks of "We're dropping the boat anchor that is Maelstrom and trying to salvage the good bits."
I appreciate Mierce paid for the moulds/equipment etc but I am sure you got them for a fraction of what they cost new. And that was all bought originally with Maelstrom money. With a list of suppliers and customers about to get screwed over and lots of Maelstrom money been used to buy all the stuff for Mierce originally surely Tim you can see why people are upset.
oldandcrabby wrote: I appreciate Mierce paid for the moulds/equipment etc but I am sure you got them for a fraction of what they cost new. And that was all bought originally with Maelstrom money. With a list of suppliers and customers about to get screwed over and lots of Maelstrom money been used to buy all the stuff for Mierce originally surely Tim you can see why people are upset.
Out of interest, oldandcrabby, do you have any other interests than having a go at Maelstrom at every opportunity?
Mierce Miniatures is listed as being incorporated in 2009 and was listed as Maelstrom Wargames Limited until 23rd March this year I.e. is the same thing.
So not quite the new shiney it has been portrayed as.
Legitemate discussion of a "new" player I'd say. If a creditor can link the two ops together as easily as I did then if MG goes down it makes MM a potential asset.
Just check the duedil links I posted to see who owns both businesses as well as their current wellbeing (on paper). While I don't particularly want to crap on either company, and I do absolutely believe that Mierce is ok financially at thus point in time ( - due to all the debt having being left with Maelstrom) I just feel it's dishonest and somewhat deceptive to attempt to represent the Mierce business as a totally separate and unrelated entity to the wargaming community...
scipio.au wrote: Just check the duedil links I posted to see who owns both businesses as well as their current wellbeing (on paper). While I don't particularly want to crap on either company, and I do absolutely believe that Mierce is ok financially at thus point in time ( - due to all the debt having being left with Maelstrom) I just feel it's dishonest and somewhat deceptive to attempt to represent the Mierce business as a totally separate and unrelated entity to the wargaming community...
You call it shifty and deceptive, the business community calls it standard operating practice
Until I either get my money back or the 2 DV boxes I ordered I wouldn't touch Mierce Miniatures with a 9000 billion mile pole. They can claim whatever they want but as far as I'm concerned it's owned by the same people who ran Maelstrom which means THEY CAN'T BE TRUSTED AT ALL!!!
Also, as it's a FACT you can't pay through paypal (which offer some protection compared to the Electron and Debit cards they do accept) I'd say it's evident their credit is bad and that they can't be trusted. I'm sure we will get some explanation about paypal not having reviewed their application yet or something like that. As long as Mierce, Eye of the Storm, Maunsfield, or whatever name changes that will happen in the next couple of months, if they dont have paypal it's pretty obvious their credit is bad. From my experience only scammers dont accept paypal.
Good stuff. Though the Mierce website is still missing a lot of images at present.
At a guess, Uuthüll looks like an Infernii beastie. What was the reason for splitting them off from the Byzantii? Was the allure of Darkage romans too much?
It's a lovely sculpt and Daniel is a talented sculptor. However this sculpt will no doubt have been paid for by money embezzled from maelstrom customers by rob lane so on the boycott list it goes.
Absolutely stunning....then again so is the price. If they'd give a size for it on the web site it might actually be worth it if it could stand eye o eye to a forgeworld greater daemon. I might have missed I there. Would have liked I more if they would have one of the feet bent slightly so it would be coming out of the water if based orrectly wih water effects.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: It's a lovely sculpt and Daniel is a talented sculptor. However this sculpt will no doubt have been paid for by money embezzled from maelstrom customers by rob lane so on the boycott list it goes.
I'd be careful making statements like that especially if you are UK basesd. If you have no proof or your statement turns out to be false, you could be a minor target for libel...
Moving on...
Difficult to judge the size of the Kraken, but looks interesting for sure
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: It's a lovely sculpt and Daniel is a talented sculptor. However this sculpt will no doubt have been paid for by money embezzled from maelstrom customers by rob lane so on the boycott list it goes.
I'd be careful making statements like that especially if you are UK basesd. If you have no proof or your statement turns out to be false, you could be a minor target for libel...
That's been pretty well established that this was happening. I doubt they really want to start down that path.
grefven wrote: Awesome stuff. Will definately buy a few of these badboys later. If they only would do a Christmas special sale. :p
There will be a warehouse moving sale later...
Code is KISSYOURMONEYGOODBYE
There was never any trouble with the Banelords/Banelegions side of things was there? Having multiple companies under one umbrella and then splitting them when one goes down is not remotely a new or unique situation.
People still do business with CoolMiniOrNot, and their owner (one of them anyway) was the owner of New Wave Miniatures, wasn't he? I guess time will settle things for Mierce Miniatures as well.
Just a little bemused by the piling on that is happening...
These miniatures were all a part of the range that was purchased from Maelstrom in May (with negotiations starting in March) - Yes, it's the same owner but the deal was done legally and above board and a price was approved by an independent valuer - Maelstrom received more than a fair price for the range - All this 'transferred for a pound' rumours are just that - rumours from people that are just guessing at best and outright wrong at worst.
The deal that was done was in the tens of thousands of £s, which for a small, relatively unknown range with no game and modest sales (at that time there was little in the way of trade and distribution accs - something we have worked hard upon and grown since) was good money (I know of more popular ranges that have sold for less, some of which were touted to us and/or people I know in the past). A lot of those models had been out for a while and had their initial sales spike - many models do not sell well outside of the 1-3 month period after release, therefore they aren't worth as much as a brand new sculpt/release. Their value diminishes - yet we paid a fair price. Then work started the site which was (finally!) completed in Sept - Though we had worked with trade accs in the months prior to that as Mierce.
Maelstrom had that money and if anything it kept them running for longer. I cannot help what happened with MG and if anything we at Mierce have gone out of our way to help people out. In November I had all my guys working extra hours (which they volunteered for) to get all the MG unfulfilled Mierce customers orders fulfilled. This has cost us thousands in shipping and packing alone, not to mention the cost of materials and man hours - For a small miniatures company it was a bold move and has nearly broke us. We didn't get paid for that - We've been run in our own budget since the buyout - there was no money link and if people think we are rolling in money, you're very wrong!
We worked hard to get those orders fulfilled (and also keep our own orders fulfilled in a timely fashion) and had another blow when we discovered that the data we had from MG re: Unfulfilled orders was wrong and we now have more people to supply (in the NY as we don't have enough time factored in pre-Xmas as we have our own orders to ship and of course my staff want to have some time off with their familiy over the Xmas period) - All of this stock has to be cast and supplied as the stock levels on MGs site were wrong. More time and money for us for which we won't get a penny for as guess what, we're owed money by MG too!
Now I'm sorry if I'm biting here - but you have to understand I have staff here that have families to feed and rent to pay - When people are saying that Mierce has ripped people off and slag us off it can affect them. These guys at Mierce work hard to get minis sent to people and orders are usually shipped the same day they are placed and all customer orders since we launched our own site have been cleared and sent by the Fri of that week.
I can't do anything about MG customers with unfulfilled orders - at that point I was many months into my new tenure at Mierce - and yes people see the link, but if you think the money was hived off to us, you're having a laugh - Me and my staff had our wages paid a week late from Nov's wages as we had such a large shipping bill to pay for the stuff we sent out to MG customers - it cost us literally £thousands.
Yes, the range of miniatures began life under MG, yes it cost MG a lot of money to get the range established - but it also bought in a modest amount (nothing compared to MG's turnrover of course) and the range was largely funded by the staff working on the range - We had a very lucrative side line in selling off second hand minis via ebay that bought in around £2-2.5k a week which covered our wages and then went towards paying for the sculpts - between the amount we bought in via second hand on ebay and the actual sales of the minis the total cost to MG was very little - If you factor in the price we paid for the miniatures when we became a separate entity then MG will have made a modest profit overall on the range and second hand project as whole.
I've seen a lot of rumours about the total costs and they're very uninformed or selective in their info. I know the info on the cost of the minis first hand - It was me that worked overtime on our second-hand line every week for two months to fund the cost of the Chimaera sculpt in 2010!
We Mierce guys always wanted to be separate from MG as we wanted to be independent of any retailer and also to foster relations with other retailers easier. We had a separate part of the building, worked together and funded ourselves via our own sales and services (the only real cross-over was when I helped the events manager out with WFB events) - Finally, many months before MG went belly up we paid an amount to MG for the range that was valued by an independent, professional valuer.
Mierce hasn't ripped anyone off, nor are we in any way financially responsible for any debt MG have. It pains me to see people lose out, it honestly does. I'm a hobbyist and have been since 1990. I know personally some of the people that have lost out.
We at Mierce have also lost out - We've lost our largest customer - MG had selling power that's for sure - There are many ranges that have broken into the UK/Europe on the back of MG stocking their range. We're now waiting on our trade accs to pick up the slack, which is definitely happening as their sales are increasing though it will take time to get replace the lost sales via MG.
Also we've spent a lot of money we had built up on shipping the unfulfilled MG orders for Mierce product as we felt passionately about getting stock to people - We needn't have done that - In many ways we would have been better off to the tune of a few £k but nonetheless we did it and hopefully a couple of hundred customers will have got their stuff in time for Xmas - No it doesn't help everyone, but it's the best we can do. I've thanked my staff members personally for the effort they have put in and I'd like to thank them here as well - They have worked their socks off and busted a nut to get those orders out. Resin casting is a slow and labour intensive process (though one with great results)! and it wasn't easy.
The elephant in the room - Rob Lane. Everyone hates him, he ripped loads of people off right? Put it this way he doesn't have £500k in his back pocket because of this (the total debt to suppliers wasn't £500k that's end of years accounts the debt was more like £200k with GW @ circa £40k) - And Rob struggles to pay his mortgage every month and feed his missus and kids like the rest of us. There's no throne of gold that he's cackling atop. I know Rob, I've known him years we played in the same wargames club for many a year. I know how this has affected him, I've seen him age before my eyes in the last few months. Is he a crook? No (I wouldn't work for him if so) . Has he made mistakes with MG? Yes. When GW stopped MG from selling to the rest of the world removing £1,2million from turnover at a stroke maybe he should perhaps have laid off 20 staff there and then and sold off the gaming venue and the mini range back then and ran the online store from a facelesss unit in the middle of nowhere. But he didn't, he tried to keep things going, which as a person it is to his credit as all those staff managed to pay the bills for another 18 months during a world-wide recession. In hindsight had he been a more ruthless person he'd have done that and many staff would have been made redundant. People have certainly lost out on money on orders they placed with MG and that's terrible, though it's as a result of Rob not wanting to lay off a load of staff. Did Rob want this to happen? NO, he's been backed into a corner - he had a plan, it was stuttering along but the debt was being reduced (at the end it was around £96k, but that was down from £120k earlier in the year so progress was being made and payments were being made) in the end once the rug was pulled he was out of time and out of money. Some people out there have lost out on a large amount of their disposable income that they spent on miniatures that were never sent. I know a lot of people that have lost their jobs - Rob himself also just lost his main source of income (MG). It's not like the guy planned to lose his main source of income, make redundant all his staff, become an internet pariah, blacken his name and enrage a load of customers - oh and lose the company that he had spent years building up and was emotinally invested in not to mention financially. Cash flow kills companies and in the end the cash flow was wrecked and he was ruined. I don't doubt that there are certain people in some quarters that have taken a great delight in this - But in the end the whole story will emerge and some people out there are far from innocent in all of this despite the smoke and mirrors.
Mierce's future remains very much under Rob's stewardship - he will write the game, he is the guy with the vision who will bring the stuff in his head to life. Mierce remains fiercely independent and there is no legal challenge anywhere from anyone to Mierce's ownership. None.
If the GW decision to stop traders from selling to the RoW was such a massive blow to MG then I'm afraid there's another one coming that will be the death knell of all large online retailers within the UK that sell a lot of GW..... GW will soon be bringing in a new addition to their T&Cs. Retailers will be limited to selling £75k of GW product a year. By comparison that's roughly the amount MG would order from GW in two weeks. Yup, two weeks and GW was roughly 50-55% of MGs turnover. So that said I think the days of the giant mega-online store are over (in the UK/Europe at least) . The future is in many smaller stores all ticking over. I wouldn't be placing a GW order with a massive store as once that change comes in someone is going the way of MG..........
OK I've said my peace - I'm not sure what difference it will make in the grand scheme of things. I won't be dragged into a long internet debate as I'm not sure anyone has ever seen one of those resolve amicably, and I have nothing more to add- I shall concern myself with posting purely on Mierce matters from now on. I can't do anything about Mierce other than the Mierce team have done their best to help out in all of this and we continue to send orders out promptly.
Scale shots will appear soon -I shall have a load of images to post with different angles, concepts and scale shots. UUthull stands a little smaller than Krull (though it would be a good scrap to watch!) and is about 100mm to his eyeline with the tip of his anchor being some 182mm from the ground.
Order via CC - I always do even from the likes of Amazon. Order from one of our retailers - There are many retailers stocking the range now MG are no longer around and our trade sales continue to increase. In addition to retailers we have two distributors in the US, one in Germany and one in the UK.
All I can say for customer confidence is that we cast all of our range in house ourselves. We'll make it then send it to you we're completely in control of getting our product out the door. No supplier issues as we're the supplier. Sometimes there's a short delay if we have a lot to cast/send out but as I say so far we've cleared/cast/packed all Mierce orders by the end of every week, usually same day. There should be a couple of hundred MG customers with orders for Mierce product fulfilled by now and even during that period we still sent out our own orders swiftly. The last 27 MG orders will ship early/mid Jan when we get back from Xmas hols.
"These miniatures were all a part of the range that was purchased from Maelstrom in May (with negotiations starting in March) - Yes, it's the same owner but the deal was done legally and above board and a price was approved by an independent valuer - Maelstrom received more than a fair price for the range - All this 'transferred for a pound' rumours are just that - rumours from people that are just guessing at best and outright wrong at worst."
CURNOW wrote: "These miniatures were all a part of the range that was purchased from Maelstrom in May (with negotiations starting in March) - Yes, it's the same owner but the deal was done legally and above board and a price was approved by an independent valuer - Maelstrom received more than a fair price for the range - All this 'transferred for a pound' rumours are just that - rumours from people that are just guessing at best and outright wrong at worst."
soooo he perchased them from himself ?
...Yes? If, as our anonymous Mierce representative claims, this transaction was made at fair market value that is entirely above board and in no way immoral per se.
I personally doubt the facts are quite like this guy claims - but without evidence to that effect (which is up to MG's administrators now), it's hard to claim some wrong was committed in this transfer of assets/separation of operations - which, again, is a perfectly valid thing to do on it's own.
What went wrong with MG is, as Laffe somewhat puts it already, and I believe the MM rep sort-of says as well (though not in that way, obviously) that they simply faced changing business conditions in entirely the wrong way (roaring the proverbial challenge and charging headlong into it instead of making a tactical withdrawal as they should have) and then tried to lie and connive their way out of it.
That's the issue, and that's why I don't trust Mierce one bit until I have at least the supposedly shipped MG orders fulfilled by them in my hands (I tend to think they'll have done that - it'd be commercial suicide not to! but I don't have that package in my hands just yet) and even then, with mr. Lane's involvement, I'll never ever buy from them directly.
...But that is not, for me, and should not be for anyone who knows the first bit about how these things can, and are perfectly allowed to, go, because of these transfers of assets until they've been proven not only to be a bit more of a shade of grey than our anonymous MM rep claims, but proven to have been fraudulent. Really, I don't discount the possibility but no evidence of malversation in that aspect of this whole mess has been shown, so until that happens it's not really fair to go off making all kinds of accusations of such fraud.
Do mr. Lane's businesses deserve trust or loyalty? Certainly not. But accusing someone of fraud like that goes a wee bit too far.
I do suggest we take this whole thing back to discussions from here on out; while I don't think it's entirely unfair to MM to continue it here, this is hardly news.
Rumours enough certainly, but not of the kind this subforum is intended for
Anything that's been near Rob Lanes name, let alone is owned by him, will never see a penny out of me. Friends of mine lost money with no expectation of ever being able to see it again.
and apreciate you putting forward your side of the story (and am glad that you chose to fulfill the maelstrom orders for the meirce range)
once the insolvency has gone through and there is official confirmation mierce sale was above board I may concider shopping with you again... at the moment I'm just a bit too nervous
Bolognesus wrote: ...Yes? If, as our anonymous Mierce representative claims, this transaction was made at fair market value that is entirely above board and in no way immoral per se.
The fact that the law allows someone to evade outstanding debts by selling stuff that they own to themselves may well be 'entirely above board' ... but 'moral' is going to come down to personal opinion, I think.
Bolognesus wrote: ...Yes? If, as our anonymous Mierce representative claims, this transaction was made at fair market value that is entirely above board and in no way immoral per se.
The fact that the law allows someone to evade outstanding debts by selling stuff that they own to themselves may well be 'entirely above board' ... but 'moral' is going to come down to personal opinion, I think.
**sigh** Except that's not what happened, if you care to read carefully. **If** it turns out assets were sold to mierce at below market value, that'd be illegal and immoral both. Because *then* it'd be "evading outstanding debts". either those creditors would have recovered from the assets, amongst those the banelords/legions line, *or* they'd have recovered from the assets minus those lines, but with their fair market value added.
they can now recover from liquid assets in the fair market value of that minis line. Do you think they'd rather be stuck with a minis line they might not care for and have to peddle to someone else to get any use/cash out of, or with liquid assets to the amount of that fair market value?
Really man, read before you blather.
Of course this is all contingent on that transaction having been made at that, again, 'fair market value' but that's something we simply do not have enough information to opine about - let's leave that to MG's administrators, shall we?
Until then shelve your pitchfork and stow your tar - this kind of unfounded allegations are the last thing any sane man should want.
Stick to valid, factually provable criticism and you'll find you'll be much more persuasive, if nothing else.
Internet biz do take ages to built up a god rep and only a few slips to kill it. Maelstorm behaviour was errr poor, regardless of personal drama... and as such this bad rep will stick to its owners for a long time.
Bolognesus wrote: Stick to valid, factually provable criticism and you'll find you'll be much more persuasive, if nothing else.
I'm not trying to be persuasive, just stating a viewpoint.
The fact the MG's assets all suddenly split off into 3 or 4 separate companies right before they took their dive, whether or not it was done completely 'above board' smells more fishy than a barrel full of fish, and is more than enough incentive for me to have no interest in doing business with any company that has this bloke's name attached to it, particularly when combined with all of the miscommunication and dodgy sales that went on when the MG was closing up.
If the company had been sold off to someone else, that would be one thing. But selling it to himself? The sane person asks why, if he can afford to buy his own company at a 'fair market value' he can't just put that money into, you know, paying off some of his debts...
insaniak wrote: if he can afford to buy his own company at a 'fair market value' he can't just put that money into, you know, paying off some of his debts...
So either you conveniently forget that separating personal and business assets is an intended purpose of LLC's and the like, or you find our modern system of companies as separate entities to be "immoral"?
Am I missing something here, or would you be better off either moving your backside into a library or to Cuba?
So the question remains where did rob lane find the funds to purchase this business from himself after all this is a man that the mierce mini representatives states whose business was heavy indebted with no chance if recovery and so hard up he can barely afford to pay his mortgage and feed his family (worlds smallest violin). Whilst on paper the deal may appear above board just where did this money come from? Why wasn't the money used to pay off some of the debt maelstrom had accrued? Too many questions not answered by a very obfuscating statement from mierce miniatures.
What is even better is that since it's inter-company purchases, there likely was zero actual cash that changed hands. Transfer of assets like that can be done entirely on paper and can be assigned any value they want.
If the GW decision to stop traders from selling to the RoW was such a massive blow to MG then I'm afraid there's another one coming that will be the death knell of all large online retailers within the UK that sell a lot of GW..... GW will soon be bringing in a new addition to their T&Cs. Retailers will be limited to selling £75k of GW product a year. By comparison that's roughly the amount MG would order from GW in two weeks. Yup, two weeks and GW was roughly 50-55% of MGs turnover. So that said I think the days of the giant mega-online store are over (in the UK/Europe at least) . The future is in many smaller stores all ticking over. I wouldn't be placing a GW order with a massive store as once that change comes in someone is going the way of MG..........
This part, if true, would be thread-worthy by itself because of the obvious implications not only for (large) online sellers, but also for people who can't afford/refuse to pay retail value.
It definitely seems like a typical GW stunt to pull.
12thRonin wrote: What is even better is that since it's inter-company purchases, there likely was zero actual cash that changed hands. Transfer of assets like that can be done entirely on paper and can be assigned any value they want.
Accounting games FTW!
Currently they say that an appropriate market value was paid. Whether that is true is something MG's administrators will be looking into as one of the first things they do (transferring assets at below market values is something most administrators/curators/however-they're-called-in-your-jurisdiction do first as it's the most common malversation imaginable).
I will say they'd have been fools to do so; do that so shortly before a companies' demise and it'll get wound right back or the receiving company might even be assigned joint liability to some degree. Not sure how it's done precisely in the UK (not my expertise, sorry) but I remember from the thread in discussions (where at least Insaniak should probably have moved this whole new kerfuffle already, ffs...) someone with specific knowledge stated that basically anything less than a year before a company goes into administration is fair game for such investigations/actions - which doesn't sound all too unlike how we do things down here.
assets were sold to mierce in march; MG went down in, what? October? So it'd have been really, really stupid to not do this in a 'proper' way, actually paying something which seems acceptable for those assets.
I'm sure they'll have lowballed it somewhat but really, by the time an administrator gets involved, auction fees have to be paid etc. there'd have been less left for creditors effectively, in all likelyhood.
I'm guessing Wayland isn't happy because they'd at least have been after that line to a degree but that's another issue (and really I'd have preferred it to be in their hands, but I digress).
If the GW decision to stop traders from selling to the RoW was such a massive blow to MG then I'm afraid there's another one coming that will be the death knell of all large online retailers within the UK that sell a lot of GW..... GW will soon be bringing in a new addition to their T&Cs. Retailers will be limited to selling £75k of GW product a year. By comparison that's roughly the amount MG would order from GW in two weeks. Yup, two weeks and GW was roughly 50-55% of MGs turnover. So that said I think the days of the giant mega-online store are over (in the UK/Europe at least) . The future is in many smaller stores all ticking over. I wouldn't be placing a GW order with a massive store as once that change comes in someone is going the way of MG..........
This part, if true, would be thread-worthy by itself because of the obvious implications not only for (large) online sellers, but also for people who can't afford/refuse to pay retail value.
It definitely seems like a typical GW stunt to pull.
TBH I think they're talking out of their collective arses there; GW would have to effectively shut down all distribution channels other than themselves to make this work in the US (EU is another matter, I think their grasp of the market there is bigger but even there...).
Prohibiting import/export is one thing; this is a whole lot harder.
And besides you know what will happen? Lots of folkswill get modest accounts with distributors and start selling stuff via ebay. Grossing 75K quid is nothing for a big retailer, but someone doing it in his spare time from a small back room? it's enough to make a pretty penny in that newly opened market segment. ebay/paypal offer enough protection to make it worth it and how is GW going to bloody well police that? With hundreds of such traders springing up all around the place...
Whatever the company background, I haven't bought anything from this miniature range since half their miniatures showed balls or fake tits, even if Rob Lane is developing a historical background for that.
Currently they say that an appropriate market value was paid. Whether that is true is something MG's administrators will be looking into as one of the first things they do (transferring assets at below market values is something most administrators/curators/however-they're-called-in-your-jurisdiction do first as it's the most common malversation imaginable).
That's the thing. If they do a book value transfer, then they can state any value they want. The offset could be anything.
If the GW decision to stop traders from selling to the RoW was such a massive blow to MG then I'm afraid there's another one coming that will be the death knell of all large online retailers within the UK that sell a lot of GW..... GW will soon be bringing in a new addition to their T&Cs. Retailers will be limited to selling £75k of GW product a year. By comparison that's roughly the amount MG would order from GW in two weeks. Yup, two weeks and GW was roughly 50-55% of MGs turnover. So that said I think the days of the giant mega-online store are over (in the UK/Europe at least) . The future is in many smaller stores all ticking over. I wouldn't be placing a GW order with a massive store as once that change comes in someone is going the way of MG..........
This part, if true, would be thread-worthy by itself because of the obvious implications not only for (large) online sellers, but also for people who can't afford/refuse to pay retail value.
It definitely seems like a typical GW stunt to pull.
TBH I think they're talking out of their collective arses there; GW would have to effectively shut down all distribution channels other than themselves to make this work in the US (EU is another matter, I think their grasp of the market there is bigger but even there...).
Prohibiting import/export is one thing; this is a whole lot harder.
And besides you know what will happen? Lots of folkswill get modest accounts with distributors and start selling stuff via ebay. Grossing 75K quid is nothing for a big retailer, but someone doing it in his spare time from a small back room? it's enough to make a pretty penny in that newly opened market segment. ebay/paypal offer enough protection to make it worth it and how is GW going to bloody well police that? With hundreds of such traders springing up all around the place...
I can see it happening if GW wants to go to being a highbrow product. Effectively kills off local competition for the stores. They could just as easily drop the distribution agreements and then you have to go into a GW store if you want the GW experience.
Kroothawk wrote: Whatever the company background, I haven't bought anything from this miniature range since half their miniatures showed balls or fake tits, even if Rob Lane is developing a historical background for that.
I don't like that either but really, the half that doesn't contains some bloody good minis. Frustrating really, I love a lot of the minis it's just that I don't trust the guys behind it enough to actually order (and getting the warstore or whatever it was to ship it right back to europe for me gets a bit rich, given that the minis are already approaching FW level pricing).
Currently they say that an appropriate market value was paid. Whether that is true is something MG's administrators will be looking into as one of the first things they do (transferring assets at below market values is something most administrators/curators/however-they're-called-in-your-jurisdiction do first as it's the most common malversation imaginable).
That's the thing. If they do a book value transfer, then they can state any value they want. The offset could be anything.
...except they said transfer at fair market value. And really: no. Just, no. They can *not* assign a completely bogus book value and laugh at the administrators while walking their pocketed cash to the bank. I know it's a popular fiction but it does not work that way.
In transfers such as these that value has to be fairly assessed and that means they'd have to assign a realistic figure. Maybe lowball it a bit but nothing egregious (and even that's hoping for an administrator getting out of bed on the right side that morning...).
Taking the mickey with such valuations for fiscal purposes is something you can generally get away with but when approaching liquidation/administration? Hell no.
If the GW decision to stop traders from selling to the RoW was such a massive blow to MG then I'm afraid there's another one coming that will be the death knell of all large online retailers within the UK that sell a lot of GW..... GW will soon be bringing in a new addition to their T&Cs. Retailers will be limited to selling £75k of GW product a year. By comparison that's roughly the amount MG would order from GW in two weeks. Yup, two weeks and GW was roughly 50-55% of MGs turnover. So that said I think the days of the giant mega-online store are over (in the UK/Europe at least) . The future is in many smaller stores all ticking over. I wouldn't be placing a GW order with a massive store as once that change comes in someone is going the way of MG..........
This part, if true, would be thread-worthy by itself because of the obvious implications not only for (large) online sellers, but also for people who can't afford/refuse to pay retail value.
It definitely seems like a typical GW stunt to pull.
TBH I think they're talking out of their collective arses there; GW would have to effectively shut down all distribution channels other than themselves to make this work in the US (EU is another matter, I think their grasp of the market there is bigger but even there...).
Prohibiting import/export is one thing; this is a whole lot harder.
And besides you know what will happen? Lots of folkswill get modest accounts with distributors and start selling stuff via ebay. Grossing 75K quid is nothing for a big retailer, but someone doing it in his spare time from a small back room? it's enough to make a pretty penny in that newly opened market segment. ebay/paypal offer enough protection to make it worth it and how is GW going to bloody well police that? With hundreds of such traders springing up all around the place...
I can see it happening if GW wants to go to being a highbrow product. Effectively kills off local competition for the stores. They could just as easily drop the distribution agreements and then you have to go into a GW store if you want the GW experience.
Hmm in the EU I think they could, potentially. In the US I believe 2/3s of their sales or something like that go through 3rd parties - and they simply don't have the distribution net there.
Maybe I'll be proven wrong but this would cost them millions per year and whatever they are, they're not such idiots. I think. Really though, if they did it wouldn't fix their 'problem' one bit and it would cost them big-time.
The RoW embargo had the first quality as well (partly at least), but not the second.
Currently they say that an appropriate market value was paid. Whether that is true is something MG's administrators will be looking into as one of the first things they do (transferring assets at below market values is something most administrators/curators/however-they're-called-in-your-jurisdiction do first as it's the most common malversation imaginable).
That's the thing. If they do a book value transfer, then they can state any value they want. The offset could be anything.
...except they said transfer at fair market value. And really: no. Just, no. They can *not* assign a completely bogus book value and laugh at the administrators while walking their pocketed cash to the bank. I know it's a popular fiction but it does not work that way.
In transfers such as these that value has to be fairly assessed and that means they'd have to assign a realistic figure. Maybe lowball it a bit but nothing egregious (and even that's hoping for an administrator getting out of bed on the right side that morning...).
Taking the mickey with such valuations for fiscal purposes is something you can generally get away with but when approaching liquidation/administration? Hell no.
Apparently you have never studied fraud or fraud schemes. What they legally can do and get away with does not factor into what they fraudulently can try to do or get away with. And yes, they can do exactly that. I've SEEN it done in my career. The offset can be considered consulting costs, exchange for service, or a deferred sale, or any other number of accounting tricks. There's NO cash to walk away with since there was no cash to start with. It's solely a book ownership transfer. Getting away with it is different and depends on how well it's hidden, the terms and contract of the sale (if there is one), and how good the auditors are. It will also depend on what the book value and the FMV of the equipment is. If it's been equipment depreciated away and has little book value, it can be "sold" at a steep discount compared to the FMV.
The Banelefions/Mierce minis I own are some of the nicest in my collection. I am out about $30 from the MG debacle, but you know what pieces did get delivered? All the Mierce stuff. So in that regard, I give sincere kudos to them.
I really look forward to seeing what kind of game is developed for the minis, because they really at gorgeous.
@Mierce - any plans on doing any end of to year sales at all? I'd be more than willing to give you guys a chance as an independent company.
Currently they say that an appropriate market value was paid. Whether that is true is something MG's administrators will be looking into as one of the first things they do (transferring assets at below market values is something most administrators/curators/however-they're-called-in-your-jurisdiction do first as it's the most common malversation imaginable).
That's the thing. If they do a book value transfer, then they can state any value they want. The offset could be anything.
...except they said transfer at fair market value. And really: no. Just, no. They can *not* assign a completely bogus book value and laugh at the administrators while walking their pocketed cash to the bank. I know it's a popular fiction but it does not work that way.
In transfers such as these that value has to be fairly assessed and that means they'd have to assign a realistic figure. Maybe lowball it a bit but nothing egregious (and even that's hoping for an administrator getting out of bed on the right side that morning...).
Taking the mickey with such valuations for fiscal purposes is something you can generally get away with but when approaching liquidation/administration? Hell no.
Apparently you have never studied fraud or fraud schemes. What they legally can do and get away with does not factor into what they fraudulently can try to do or get away with. And yes, they can do exactly that. I've SEEN it done in my career. The offset can be considered consulting costs, exchange for service, or a deferred sale, or any other number of accounting tricks. There's NO cash to walk away with since there was no cash to start with. It's solely a book ownership transfer. Getting away with it is different and depends on how well it's hidden, the terms and contract of the sale (if there is one), and how good the auditors are. It will also depend on what the book value and the FMV of the equipment is. If it's been equipment depreciated away and has little book value, it can be "sold" at a steep discount compared to the FMV.
Actually I kind of have and oh well, uhuh. It can be done, **if** the situation is complex enough to obfuscate matters to that point. Really, an operation of this scale would need a much sharper mastermind to pull something like that off. It's not something easily done with 'simple' assets such as these. Rob Lane is not half as sharp as some seem to want to make him out to be, I think. At the very least these splits and transfers were made way too late to make it 'clean' - anyone with a modicum of sense would have established Mierce and that entire line separately to start with while MG was still solvent. This was panicking to at least somewhat salvage some assets - no dark schemes/plots/whatever.
Oh well, Mierce might as well publish details on that transaction if they ever want to get some credibility; that way we might get to know a bit more too.
Still, I will contend a lot of folks (you included!) are making allegations they cannot sufficiently back with facts. Wait until MG's administrators are through with that mess - then we might get to know a bit more (I take it at least parts of how they solve the mess have to be publicly available, if only as court records? Again, not a British jurist...)
I've not made a single allegation, but examples of what they could do. The fact is that fraud schemes like this are pretty common here in the States and that's what we're dealing with in a situation like this. They're probably similar in Britain since they use similar accounting rules. Criminal mastermind or not, dark schemes or not, whatever you may think of Lane, I've seen some dumb people run some pretty clever fraud schemes. Most of them ended up in jail mind you, but they were pretty good while it lasted. This whole thing stinks though, regardless of the spin they put on it.
I'll still argue that it's not in their interest to push anything, even if I had.
...Fair enough, seems I conflated you with another poster. Sorry!
Well, I'm still sure it takes more complicated situations and more premeditation to commit serious fraud in such matters; do remember that everything MG in general and Lane in particular did reeked of panic and improvisation; I'd bet against significant shenanigans on this aspect of the whole stinker.
...Mind you that's not because I expect mr. Lane to be honourable about it; just slightly incompetent
Bolognesus wrote: So either you conveniently forget that separating personal and business assets is an intended purpose of LLC's and the like, or you find our modern system of companies as separate entities to be "immoral"?
No, I understand how LLCs work, and don't have a problem with it in general. It's just when the system is used to avoid paying your debts by shuffling companies around that I start making frowny faces. The system is intended to allow people to grow their businesses without being personally ruined if things go pear-shaped... but that shouldn't be a free rein to take the assets from your failing company and run off with them to a new company and start over scott free. Selling something to yourself is not selling something. It's playing games by exploiting the system.
so you can't order bits anymore from Maelstrom. It looks like maelstrom is gone (at least the website is dysfunctional) When did all this happen? is there another thread about what happened to them?
Bolognesus wrote: So either you conveniently forget that separating personal and business assets is an intended purpose of LLC's and the like, or you find our modern system of companies as separate entities to be "immoral"?
No, I understand how LLCs work, and don't have a problem with it in general. It's just when the system is used to avoid paying your debts by shuffling companies around that I start making frowny faces. The system is intended to allow people to grow their businesses without being personally ruined if things go pear-shaped... but that shouldn't be a free rein to take the assets from your failing company and run off with them to a new company and start over scott free. Selling something to yourself is not selling something. It's playing games by exploiting the system.
Good heavens man, are we working with two different sets of facts here?
Situation one: assets, minus BL/BL, plus value thereof is, in your mind, worth less than situation two: assets, BL/BL?
**IF** that transaction did not have adequate consideration from MM towards MG, it is wrong, morally. It is also wrong, legally. If a decent price was paid, make no mistake: Creditors would be off all the better for that. no waiting, no hassle of getting it sold, just a decent sum of liquid assets.
If MM (one of his companies, not mr. Lane himself, highly annoying to conflate those) paid a decent price, as they allege, creditors are no worse off. What the Feth is your problem then?
Really, I understand you'd be sceptical as to MM's claim of having paid a decent price and were your condemnation contingent upon such malversations, I would completely agree. It isn't, though, as you put it now.
No-one has any incentive to try to pay an unrealistically low sum for those lines; that would get caught (it's entirely too simple an asset to get all too creative with, fortunately ) and would leave all those involved liable; potentially even personally.
And on a purely macro-economic point: You do realize it's actually better for society if assets get salvaged and keep being used in some economically sensible manner? If that line had been in the administration for upwards of a year, generating no revenue, just sitting idle, noone would be better off for that. Sure, creditors need to get as much of the actual value of leftover assets back out of a company gone bust, but really, as long as a decent price was paid; they got that money, however (comparatively) little of the total debt that might be (and really, a couple of minis some of which have already generated most of the revenue they ever will - as MM states, initial sales busts are nice but obscure sculpts which aren't particularly cheap have limited sales potential - while still under the MG banner, will not net a significant part of a 500K+ debt under any realistic valuation).
anyway, I digress. I guess the question is: what *is* your issue? Are you alleging fraud for which we have no clear indication other than "hey we hate the guy, he must be guilty" yet? Are you against an entity owned by mr. Lane taking over such assets even for a fair price? And if neither: What the Feth are you saying?
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buckero0 wrote: so you can't order bits anymore from Maelstrom. It looks like maelstrom is gone (at least the website is dysfunctional) When did all this happen? is there another thread about what happened to them?
Own several of these mini's - love them. I won't however be buying from these people if MG is remotely involved. I understand people have jobs and money on the line but hey, maybe better to check who you are getting into bed with first.
"GW will soon be bringing in a new addition to their T&Cs. Retailers will be limited to selling £75k of GW product a year. By comparison that's roughly the amount MG would order from GW in two weeks. Yup, two weeks and GW was roughly 50-55% of MGs turnover."
It sounds like just the right amount of pants on head stupidity from GW to sound true.
I wouldn't worry. I think this came from an ill informed misunderstanding of GW's current terms to claim that processing orders over £75,000 can take longer to deliver than smaller orders to an indy.
It is very difficult to limit sales volumes in the EU, by difficult I mean not going to happen whilst GW are also competing with those they supply.
fullheadofhair wrote: Own several of these mini's - love them. I won't however be buying from these people if MG is remotely involved. I understand people have jobs and money on the line but hey, maybe better to check who you are getting into bed with first.
Rob Lane owns and is directing everything Mierce do. I don't think that connection to MG is going anywhere any time soon.
I'm ultimately a sucker for nice minis, and they have quite a few of them. While I'd like to proclaim solidarity with my global nerd brethren that lost money with MG, I think I like cool minotaurs and wyverns more.
To assuage my guilt somewhat I will only order them through a new LGS that carries the line.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, limiting how much you can sell seems to be edging into dishonest and illegal business practices.
"Hi. You compete with our own stores... but we're only going to let you sell X amount of our product a year. Have fun!!!"
They'd never get away with it, so I doubt it's a real thing.
Oh feth I hadn't even considered their stores, just competing distribution...(really a wee bit too tired, I guess) hmm, it does make it unlikely *any* of it will fly in the EU short of simply not selling through any third parties anymore.
Bolognesus wrote: If MM (one of his companies, not mr. Lane himself, highly annoying to conflate those) paid a decent price, as they allege, creditors are no worse off. What the Feth is your problem then?
The problem is that the company buying the range is owned by the same guy who already owns the range.
It's not a matter of being sceptical as to whether or not they paid a fair price. They shouldn't have been paying any price.
Let's say I owe you $40. I tell you I don't have any money, but I sell my watch for $20 and give you that. We both understand that I still owe you $20, but I've given you all the money I have for now, and done what I can to pay off the debt.
Now instead, let's say I owe you $40. I tell you I don't have any money, but I sell my watch to myself for $20, and give you that, and then tell you that I can't pay you any more because I have no more money and I sold my only asset, so as far as I'm concerned our debt is erased. Sound fair?
If I have the $20 anyway, shouldn't I have given you that and sold the watch so I could pay you in full?
Again, because of the way LLCs work, it's technically legal in this situation to sell your stuff to yourself ... but it's dodgy.
Bolognesus wrote: So either you conveniently forget that separating personal and business assets is an intended purpose of LLC's and the like, or you find our modern system of companies as separate entities to be "immoral"?
No, I understand how LLCs work, and don't have a problem with it in general.
was rather meaningless. Oh well. Didn't really expect otherwise after some of your other posts in this thread anymore, anyway.
No, it meant exactly what it said. I don't have a problem with how LLCs work in general. There are any number of LLCs out there in the world that I have no problem with. It's just people being able to buy stuff from themselves to avoid paying their debts that I take issue with.
Whilst I appreciate the discussion at hand and think its worthwhile, perhaps it's best to the it elsewhere from this thread. I know I'm not as seasoned a member as some of y'all, but I think Mierce should still have the opportunity to post in this thread their new releases without discussion of the previous business being the focal point.
cincydooley wrote: Whilst I appreciate the discussion at hand and think its worthwhile, perhaps it's best to the it elsewhere from this thread. I know I'm not as seasoned a member as some of y'all, but I think Mierce should still have the opportunity to post in this thread their new releases without discussion of the previous business being the focal point.
Certainly they have every 'right' to post news of their releases. It's helpful for people to know just who they are dealing with, though, and Mierce would be naive to not expect people to bring it up. You are correct though in that extended discussion of MG's business practices is probably better done in the thread over on the discussion board.
cincydooley wrote: Whilst I appreciate the discussion at hand and think its worthwhile, perhaps it's best to the it elsewhere from this thread. I know I'm not as seasoned a member as some of y'all, but I think Mierce should still have the opportunity to post in this thread their new releases without discussion of the previous business being the focal point.
Certainly they have every 'right' to post news of their releases. It's helpful for people to know just who they are dealing with, though, and Mierce would be naive to not expect people to bring it up. You are correct though in that extended discussion of MG's business practices is probably better done in the thread over on the discussion board.
Couldn't agree more. I think after Mierces second explanation is where we'd have been best to cut off. I realize giving them a second chance is giving them a BIG second chance, but I hope the fact that Mierce did fulfill back orders from the MG fiasco, coupled with the empassioned response from them here, should at least warrant them the good college try at that second chance. :-)
The undisputed fact of the matter is that up until the entity ceased trading, an entity over which Mr. Rob Lane exercised authority and control engaged in a pattern of fraudulent selling. Specifically, I would say that Mr. Lane and his associated entities engaged in, as defined by the Fraud Act 2006, 1) Fraud by False Representation, additionally and alternatively 2) Fraud by Failing to Disclose Information, additionally and alternatively 3) Fraud by Abuse of Position.
It is therefor my (personal) opinion that the actions of Mr. Lane constitute a series of criminal offenses.
While I feel for the people that were innocently associated with Mr.Lane, the fact remains that it is a corporate entity operating under the auspices of Mr. Lane, an individual who I believe has committed upon the consumers a very large fraud.
TLR, If you want to buy from this company, take advantage of all possible protections. If ever you are tempted to patronize them, do so warily.
Yeah... I bought a model from Maelstrom Games, and it was pretty good. But regarding this:
Mierce Miniatures wrote:Mierce's future remains very much under Rob's stewardship - he will write the game, he is the guy with the vision who will bring the stuff in his head to life.
I don't know how the OP can ask users to trust the very same owner who just left so many out funds and out to dry.
I certainly won't be giving Mierce Miniatures any business. You can only burn so many bridges in such a small community as the hobby industry until you've run out of them. If the OP was honest, he'd know that remaining in Rob Lane's employment and under his "stewardship" and "vision" is going to mean that many folks will not (and probably should not, for many reasons) support him.
cincydooley wrote: Couldn't agree more. I think after Mierces second explanation is where we'd have been best to cut off. I realize giving them a second chance is giving them a BIG second chance, but I hope the fact that Mierce did fulfill back orders from the MG fiasco, coupled with the empassioned response from them here, should at least warrant them the good college try at that second chance. :-)
I see that my response took long enough to write as to end up mostly redundant, but I can only say, even if you're inclined to " warrant them the good college try at that second chance. :-)", stay on top of your options. Whether they be the period of disputing a charge on paypal or the time limit on protection with your credit card, be vigilant.
cincydooley wrote: Couldn't agree more. I think after Mierces second explanation is where we'd have been best to cut off. I realize giving them a second chance is giving them a BIG second chance, but I hope the fact that Mierce did fulfill back orders from the MG fiasco, coupled with the empassioned response from them here, should at least warrant them the good college try at that second chance. :-)
I see that my response took long enough to write as to end up mostly redundant, but I can only say, even if you're inclined to " warrant them the good college try at that second chance. :-)", stay on top of your options. Whether they be the period of disputing a charge on paypal or the time limit on protection with your credit card, be vigilant.
No, I'm right with you. Like I said, I'm out about $30 bucks from MG, but I took that as a calculated risk and new I may lose it. As it stands, I got about half of a $50 order which actually amounted to about $300 worth of Dark Age product. Like I said, It was a calculated risk and I still more or less came out on top despite "losing" that $30 bucks.
And I'll be honest, most of my willingness to try out patronizing Mierce is that the minis really are that good.
Uuthüll is joined by three more new releases for January, too - another unpronouncable yet incredibly cool Dyndraig warrior for the Brythoniaid, Clundwr; the astonishingly mad three-headed Hydrar of � dron known as Hirakoth, for the Khthones; and the first of our Ax-Drunes, Arthyen of Carn Maen who bashes heads for Kernunnos. You can purchase all of these incredible miniatures right now!
Pronounced 'Klin-doo-er', Clundwr is another superb Dyndraig warrior for the Brythoniaid and we especially like his enormous, nasty-looking and quite possibly very painful weapon. Ahem. There's one more to come in Galhwch's unit of five, all of which concepted up by the sublimely talented Christophe Madura and realised in miniature form by the slightly crazy (but eminently loveable) Roberto Chaudon.
We hesitate a little to say it, but we think Uuthüll is Daniel Cockersell's finest work for us to date. With the concept drawn by Stefan Kopinski, the idea of a Kraken slaughtering Baalor's enemies on land captured both artists' imagination and the result of their endeavours over the past few months is something that simply beggars belief. It is an enormous creature, matching Krull in height if not in bulk, but is far more intricate and - well, insane - than everyone's favourite denizen of Infernus. Uuthüll is another masterpiece, another miniature that can proudly sit amongst the best in the world. We're trying to be a bit modest about him, but to be honest it's very difficult! Suffice to say, we think he will be on any discerning monster-maker's Christmas list both this year and the next. Watch out for Ben Komets' work on him in the new year, too!
When we first saw Christophe Madura's art - based on our concept of a three-headed Gorgonar - we couldn't believe our eyes. What we thought was a fairly difficult ask was brought to life far better than we could have possibly hoped and Stéphane Nguyen has worked wonders with his sculpt - so much so that we think this fella is Stéphane's best miniature for us to date. Hirakoth is an amazing miniature, full of detail and care and possibly unique in wargaming; we don't think we've ever seen another figure quite like it, although he will soon be followed by his mates.
Another month, another Ysian release - and there's plenty more to come for the sons of Kernunnos, for Arthyen of Carn Maen is the first of our Drune infantry, a Champion of the Ax-Drunes who, funnily enough, take massive great double-handed axes into battle. Sculpted by a newcomer to our range - the very talented Juan Navarro Pérez - and brilliantly drawn by Danny Cruz, Arthyen heralds a bit of a new dawn for us because more and more man-sized miniatures will soon find their way to a battlefield near you. About time, too!
Order now and you'll get them for Christmas!
All of the superb miniatures mentioned above are available to pre-order right now from this very website (and many others these days), and they will be officially released on the 12th of January. However, as it's Christmas, we've decided that any orders made before his official release date will be sent out - so if you order Uuthüll now, we'll ship him before Xmas so if you live in the UK (maybe elsewhere too!) and don't leave it too late you will get him in time for Santa!
Also remember we have retailers and distributors across North America and Europe who will be stocking the above minis soon!
Some interesting and very well done sculpts but..... with all the flaming donkey poop of MG I wouldn't touch these with a 10ft pole. Lane wronged a lot of people and I won't supprt any company he's a part of, much less if he's the owner of said company.
The minis are great but the hard truth is that there's more to a purchasing decision than just how a mini looks. I'd prefer to invest in other companies that understand the concept of integrity and don't leave their customers hanging.
paulson games wrote: Some interesting and very well done sculpts but..... with all the flaming donkey poop of MG I wouldn't touch these with a 10ft pole. Lane wronged a lot of people and I won't supprt any company he's a part of, much less if he's the owner of said company.
The minis are great but the hard truth is that there's more to a purchasing decision than just how a mini looks. I'd prefer to invest in other companies that understand the concept of integrity and don't leave their customers hanging.
While it is certainly no 3rd party tau weaponry, I quite like the clundwr.
@Mierce - what are the chances of getting one in the US by Christmas?
Any chance of a distributer in Australia.
Love the Octopus model...
One question, is there a chance to make bases for the models. Most of the models I have really struggled to base (especially the largest ones... looking at you KRULL!)
As for MG... yeah, guys if you want to talk about that... go to another thread. These are still brilliant models, if you don't want them that's fine, but at least tell them if they are building models you like if you are posting on this thread.
@Mierce - what are the chances of getting one in the US by Christmas?
Last postage date for guaranteed arrival by Xmas from UK to USA was the 10th of Dec so we couldn't now say 100% it would arrive though there would be a chance. We'd certainly ship same day the order was placed on a weekdayand it reached us by 3pm UK time (EST 10am). We wil be working into next week, though will have less staff on from next week over Xmas as our staff have racked up the overtime in late Nov/early Dec and deserve a break over the Xmas period! I live about 100 yards from work however so I will pop in regularly to keep things ticking over.
One question, is there a chance to make bases for the models. Most of the models I have really struggled to base (especially the largest ones... looking at you KRULL!)
Most of our minis are now provided with our own brand of round-lipped bases for use in our upcoming skirmish game. One or two (Basilisk, Mjagnir, Keirioc-Cro, Kadamstar, ok that's four!) are awaiting a larger base size that's in the works. Krull for example now ships with a 120mm round base. We do make some square bases (and rectangular!) that I will look at adding to our site in the near future. These are 40, 50 and 100mm square and also 25x50,50x75 and 50 x 100. they may be more suitable for people with alternative uses and if requested in the order notes via our own site we can swap out the round base for a close-sized square/rectangular one.
We'd love an Australian distributor and although we don't have one yet we would be keen to work with one. Same goes for any distributors really, especially the more distant ones as shipping overseas can take time and be expensive so we'd prefer to bulk ship via UPS to a local dist/retailer so it's better for everyone.
Cincydooley, the problem is that when a previously trusted online seller bails on the community it makes it that much harder for every other seller out there. When somebody has been burned (regardless of who did it) it damages the willingness of people to trust purchasing from other businesses online.
The impact of events like this are pretty heavy on the community. If a large company like MG can up and fleece their customers, then what cause is there to place trust in the little guys?
Clundwr is holding his weapon improperly. He (it?) is holding it in a pose as if he is attempting to swing it at a foe, but he is holding both hands too far up the shaft of the weapon. If he were to swing it, it would likely catch his left hand side on the follow through.
The left hand should be lower on the haft acting as the fulcrum, with the other posed further up, around the two thirds section, ready to drop along the shaft as he swings, giving momentum, positioning and weight to the strike.
Fenriswulf wrote: Clundwr is holding his weapon improperly. He (it?) is holding it in a pose as if he is attempting to swing it at a foe, but he is holding both hands too far up the shaft of the weapon. If he were to swing it, it would likely catch his left hand side on the follow through.
The left hand should be lower on the haft acting as the fulcrum, with the other posed further up, around the two thirds section, ready to drop along the shaft as he swings, giving momentum, positioning and weight to the strike.
Just thought I would point that out.
I just see it that his opponent is trying to get in close so he choked up on the weapon.
Fenriswulf wrote: Clundwr is holding his weapon improperly. He (it?) is holding it in a pose as if he is attempting to swing it at a foe, but he is holding both hands too far up the shaft of the weapon. If he were to swing it, it would likely catch his left hand side on the follow through.
The left hand should be lower on the haft acting as the fulcrum, with the other posed further up, around the two thirds section, ready to drop along the shaft as he swings, giving momentum, positioning and weight to the strike.
Just thought I would point that out.
I just see it that his opponent is trying to get in close so he choked up on the weapon.
I'm reading it as him ripping something's guts out. So he's pulling back and over his shoulder.
RiTides wrote: Yeah... I bought a model from Maelstrom Games, and it was pretty good. But regarding this:
Mierce Miniatures wrote:Mierce's future remains very much under Rob's stewardship - he will write the game, he is the guy with the vision who will bring the stuff in his head to life.
I don't know how the OP can ask users to trust the very same owner who just left so many out funds and out to dry.
I certainly won't be giving Mierce Miniatures any business. You can only burn so many bridges in such a small community as the hobby industry until you've run out of them. If the OP was honest, he'd know that remaining in Rob Lane's employment and under his "stewardship" and "vision" is going to mean that many folks will not (and probably should not, for many reasons) support him.
Yeah, all this "Rob Lane is actually a good bloke, and he has a family too" stuff doesn't really counterbalance the months of fraudulent "warehouse moving sale" and all the money they sucked in with no intention of fulfilling people's orders. You guys have some nice figures, too, and I bought a number of them before the dark times. Can't really buy any more, unless perhaps someone is selling them second-hand. Sorry.
Okay I never intended to get into this discussion wrg to Rob Lane, but it bothers me.
Has any of you that have been wronged actually tried emailing, otherwise contacting him personally or for that matter filed some form of lawsuit against the man?
I get the "hurr durr rob lane herp derp" but are there any solid facts?
with the internet its quite easy to get the hatetrain rolling and being someone who was accused by the other side in a similar situation, I actually sued and was cleared of wrongdoing (I was the buyer, not the seller, i was however accused of not paying for the product, which I did, and it was broken)
Furthermore, mobbing up on someone due to what to me is more or less unsubstantiated is bothersome.
I like the sculpt, From what i've read up on it seems the company that did the right thing wrg to the outstanding orders were mierce minis.
You can't really transfer blame left, right and then ruin their rep.
do something about it if they are proven to be up to the same shenanigans again, not before.
Don't be silly, do some research. People have lost money. There's no transfer of blame when the same guy runs both companies. I don't blame anyone for not waiting to see if he runs this company in to the ground before they are cautious.
xcasex wrote: Okay I never intended to get into this discussion wrg to Rob Lane, but it bothers me.
Has any of you that have been wronged actually tried emailing, otherwise contacting him personally or for that matter filed some form of lawsuit against the man?
I get the "hurr durr rob lane herp derp" but are there any solid facts?
with the internet its quite easy to get the hatetrain rolling and being someone who was accused by the other side in a similar situation, I actually sued and was cleared of wrongdoing (I was the buyer, not the seller, i was however accused of not paying for the product, which I did, and it was broken)
Furthermore, mobbing up on someone due to what to me is more or less unsubstantiated is bothersome.
I like the sculpt, From what i've read up on it seems the company that did the right thing wrg to the outstanding orders were mierce minis.
You can't really transfer blame left, right and then ruin their rep.
do something about it if they are proven to be up to the same shenanigans again, not before.
Would a 50+ page thread in Dakka discussions count as enough substance for you? It's not that a few people got stiffed by MG and hence Rob Lane, it's quite a lot. I even know some personally and when your hobby scene is as small as mine, that's saying something.
xcasex wrote: Okay I never intended to get into this discussion wrg to Rob Lane, but it bothers me.
Has any of you that have been wronged actually tried emailing, otherwise contacting him personally or for that matter filed some form of lawsuit against the man?
I get the "hurr durr rob lane herp derp" but are there any solid facts?
with the internet its quite easy to get the hatetrain rolling and being someone who was accused by the other side in a similar situation, I actually sued and was cleared of wrongdoing (I was the buyer, not the seller, i was however accused of not paying for the product, which I did, and it was broken)
Furthermore, mobbing up on someone due to what to me is more or less unsubstantiated is bothersome.
I like the sculpt, From what i've read up on it seems the company that did the right thing wrg to the outstanding orders were mierce minis.
You can't really transfer blame left, right and then ruin their rep.
do something about it if they are proven to be up to the same shenanigans again, not before.
Quite a number of people have tried to contact them and go no response at all in regard to their questions. Lawsuits are useless now that Maelstrom is insolvent and you get in line behind all the other creditors who have larger amounts outstanding. Plus there's that 50 page thread that's been running for a few months now about what baked goods they may or may not have been taking (apparently they quite were on the take there).
@plastictrees, what it comes down to isnt ownership, but corporate policy, operations, current ceo etc. it goes to intent to defraud.
is he the owner? well then, he bears some of the blame, was he operationally aware? was he part and parcel involved with the day to day operations?
if yes to all of the above, he's your guy. but also, how long was the company insolvent, why were they accepting orders, these are questions that need to be answered & short of a lawsuit these are not answers you will get.
@Sining, first of all, i'm really sorry that people lost money in this. but there's a big but in there, its unsubstantiated rumourmongering unless people individually filed their receipts. other than that, read what i wrote to plastictrees.
I'll be buying some of the minis in feb, I guess i'll get to experience their level of service then.
xcasex wrote: Okay I never intended to get into this discussion wrg to Rob Lane, but it bothers me.
Has any of you that have been wronged actually tried emailing, otherwise contacting him personally or for that matter filed some form of lawsuit against the man?
I get the "hurr durr rob lane herp derp" but are there any solid facts?
with the internet its quite easy to get the hatetrain rolling and being someone who was accused by the other side in a similar situation, I actually sued and was cleared of wrongdoing (I was the buyer, not the seller, i was however accused of not paying for the product, which I did, and it was broken)
Furthermore, mobbing up on someone due to what to me is more or less unsubstantiated is bothersome.
I like the sculpt, From what i've read up on it seems the company that did the right thing wrg to the outstanding orders were mierce minis.
You can't really transfer blame left, right and then ruin their rep.
do something about it if they are proven to be up to the same shenanigans again, not before.
Quite a number of people have tried to contact them and go no response at all in regard to their questions. Lawsuits are useless now that Maelstrom is insolvent and you get in line behind all the other creditors who have larger amounts outstanding. Plus there's that 50 page thread that's been running for a few months now about what baked goods they may or may not have been taking (apparently they quite were on the take there).
Thanks for playing though.
a forumthread is insubstantial, its a forum on the internet anyone can post whatever. And by your answer re: insolvency, I guess Sweden has it better whereas you can still sue for fraud if you can prove intent.
and .. baked goods? do I look like marie antoinette? pffft.
Maybe you should read the thread instead of saying the claims are unsubstantiated. There's even a statement in it from MG where they pretty much say those who placed orders with them are out of luck and they took new orders hoping to be able to repay their debt and be able to process the old orders; not the new ones mind you.
Saying we need receipts for everything is ridiculous. Are you saying everyone in the 50+ thread is lying about MG stiffing them. So my friend didn't really lose his 30gbp from MG because he didn't show me the receipt?
Its up to you if you want to order from mierce, however don't belittle everyone else who's been burnt by MG by saying their claims are unsubstantiated.
Also, its not like MG is a huge company in the scheme of things. If the owner Rob Lane wasn't aware of what's happening, I'd be very surprised. And if he wasn't, what's that going to say about the management of Mierce anyway since its the same guy at the helm
@Sining, kindly notice my first sentence i wrote in my reply to you.
Furthermore, companies go insolvent, it happens quite often, it effects peoples lives way beyond the scope of 30 quid. lives are ruined to the adverse effects of a competetive market.
regarding management, an owner has operational liaisons called managers that are a form of trustee, these people handle the day to day management of a company. Now I don't know what Mr Lane's job was within the company, or if he were involved in the managerial aspects, but as far as my own experience goes with companies in the SME range, it could very well be that he handled a whole other aspect of the company, like concept development.
It's all really nillywilly at this point, but I'd like to again stress that Mierce isn't MG, and if their efforts are sincere, which it is my understanding that they are -- Mierce took the backlog of mierce products ordered through MG and sent them out, ever heard of a company tangentially involved ever do that before? -- I just don't know what Lane could do short of declaring bankruptcy for Mierce that would satisfy people effected by the backorder at MG.
And that's all I have to say about this, in this thread, if you'd like to continue the discussion my inbox is open and i'd prefer it if you read through it twice before replying.
I'd like to point out mierce can hardly be considered tangentially involved when its owned by the same person who owns MG
Also, its not like Mierce is doing this to be saints. They're trying to build good will to their brand instead of burning all their bridges. They've already been tarnished by association with Rob Lane, this is pretty much the only way they can use to build good will quickly because people will say "hey at least mierce sent me my miniatures" without thinking too deply on it. Without this gesture, even less people would buy from them.
@Sining, first of all, i'm really sorry that people lost money in this. but there's a big but in there, its unsubstantiated rumourmongering unless people individually filed their receipts. other than that, read what i wrote to plastictrees.
a forumthread is insubstantial, its a forum on the internet anyone can post whatever. And by your answer re: insolvency, I guess Sweden has it better whereas you can still sue for fraud if you can prove intent.
and .. baked goods? do I look like marie antoinette? pffft.
I just had to comment on this. Dozens of people have reported lack of communication. I myself tried emailing the company after they started showing obvious signs of financial trouble. I never got a reply, just like the rest of us. A forumthread of 50 pages is not insubstantial, it goes to show that there is/was something wrong with the company. You cannot honestly believe that 50+ pages were created by a couple people with too much time on their hands. Oh, and the same topic has been discussed on other boards, like BoLS or bolterandchainsword.
Just google Maelstromgames.
And that baked goods comment is just a reference to the thread on Dakka and a peculiar way of the Britons to express incompetence.
xcasex- It would seem to make sense to familiarize yourself with the specifics of this case before continuing to comment generally. There is indeed mountains of evidence to the contrary if what you are posting rather at length about, without bothering to glance at the facts. There is indeed hard evidence available- just because you haven't looked doesn't mean it isn't there!
As for Mierce Minoatures fulfilling BaneBeast orders from Maelstrom Games- that was not done out of kindness, if they hadn't, no one (hardly) would risk buying from them now.
We have an expression "Call a spade a spade", you seem to be desperately trying to convince yourself that it is something else, and I can't figure out why. To drill down to the main point- this owner ripped people off and misled them. This leads those, and others who know them or have heard their story to not want to do business with the owner's "new" company. It's simply business reputation, a Major part of business. And right now the facts about this owner are absolutely killing Mierce Miniatures reputation. It happens all the time in business, and execs step down / are fired because of it.
If he were to divorce himself from the operations of Mierce Miniatures, I might support them. But when they say he is extremely involved and his vision is what drives them, as they posted here- that's not a vision I trust nor want to be a part of. That's just being a smart consumer, and it's going to hurt their business till addressed.
To at least partially attempt to remain on topic, if not 100%
Some feedback on Krull, who I'm currently putting together.
Instructions as to where all the various small components attach wouldn't go amiss, while mostly logical I'm having to think way too hard for some of them.
Secondly the knee armour is horrible, the upper and lower trims are so delicate that they all split, no matter how carefully I tried to remove them from the enormous tabs they were attached to, and they were also difficult to locate onto the model. It is probably too late, but casting the knee piece seperately to the legs in one component would be much easier if it were possible.
Love the model though, one of the few good things to emerge from Maelstrom's demise is I could afford one!
I bought the shaggoth type monster from MG some time ago. I did like it, although it was Huge, and even the severed heads on it were a bit out of scale with WH.
Also, comments about a company's business practices are most definitely on topic
RiTides wrote: I bought the shaggoth type monster from MG some time ago. I did like it, although it was Huge, and even the severed heads on it were a bit out of scale with WH.
Also, comments about a company's business practices are most definitely on topic
It is absolutely right that it's mentioned so anyone casually reading this thread is aware of the company's heritage, but there's already 50 plus pages in Discussions debating the legality and morality of Robs actions.
It is absolutely right that it's mentioned so anyone casually reading this thread is aware of the company's heritage, but there's already 50 plus pages in Discussions debating the legality and morality of Robs actions.
So the next time Daniel Middlebaum pops up, we shouldn't bring up his previous activities as RedStarOne or any of his other scam routines because it was discussed before? Ok. No significant difference between him and Lane. Both have organizations taking orders with no intent on filling them.
RiTides, the thing is that most of the people arguing over this, yourself included, are showing some very heavy emotional investment in the discussion, you wouldn't if this was a local business going insolvent with outstanding orders, people going out of work, etc.
The company went insolvent, unless you have evidence, its just hearsay and that's very insubstantial, if there is evidence, sue for fraud, I mean what's the hindering factor there? that it's easier to spew vitriol on a forum? the former is constructive the latter is objectionable.
I frankly couldn't really give a feth, but the explanation by the OP was good, it was stellar as far as explanations from corporations go.
desperate? i'm not the one posting in a 50+ page thread.
I wouldnt be interested in buying from them, if it weren't for that explanation.
and as far as facts, i've reiterated that i've read the forumthread in question, the fact that you try to paint it as if i haven't is unflattering, i.e don't preclude to knowing what I have or have Not done, simply because you dont and can't know
It is absolutely right that it's mentioned so anyone casually reading this thread is aware of the company's heritage, but there's already 50 plus pages in Discussions debating the legality and morality of Robs actions.
So the next time Daniel Middlebaum pops up, we shouldn't bring up his previous activities as RedStarOne or any of his other scam routines because it was discussed before? Ok. No significant difference between him and Lane. Both have organizations taking orders with no intent on filling them.
Huh?
You quote me saying its right that it's mentioned, then proceed to try and argue with a point I didn't make! MY point was that discussion was going on elsewhere and didn't need to be repeated here at length.
So what part didn't you understand? If someone hasn't read the Maelstrom thread or know about the connection of Rob Lane, how would they know otherwise if it's not discussed at length? Scammers are scammers and deserve to be discussed at length.
xcasex wrote: RiTides, the thing is that most of the people arguing over this, yourself included, are showing some very heavy emotional investment in the discussion, you wouldn't if this was a local business going insolvent with outstanding orders, people going out of work, etc.
If this was a local business who had stiffed a lot of local people and had set up another business owned by the same person, I'm pretty sure people would STILL avoid the other business. I'm not really sure what's your point here. Do you know the people involved in mierce miniatures? Are they a local business for you? I mean, local or not, I'm not going to shop with a business if I'm not sure I'm going to get the stuff I paid for. If their employees go out of work, that's really sad but again, why should I be the one to take a risk to feed them?
The company went insolvent, unless you have evidence, its just hearsay and that's very insubstantial, if there is evidence, sue for fraud, I mean what's the hindering factor there? that it's easier to spew vitriol on a forum? the former is constructive the latter is objectionable.
Hearsay of what? That they went insolvent? That people did not get their orders? That they knew that their time was coming but they kept taking orders in the meanwhile without letting customers know about their situation? I mean, you keep saying it's hearsay but you don't specifically say what. I'm not saying Rob Lane specifically or intentionally committed fraud but what I said are the facts, and not hearsay. It's really up to other people how they want to interpret it. Most people just call a duck a duck. Some other people prefer to call a duck a chicken -_-
12thRonin wrote: So what part didn't you understand? If someone hasn't read the Maelstrom thread or know about the connection of Rob Lane, how would they know otherwise if it's not discussed at length? Scammers are scammers and deserve to be discussed at length.
You quote me saying its right that it's mentioned, then proceed to try and argue with a point I didn't make! MY point was that discussion was going on elsewhere and didn't need to be repeated here at length.
Is that clearer?
Its been mentioned, move on
If you feel a burning need for an in depth discussion then there is a thread in Discussions!
yeah see this is why i wrote i'd rather discuss this in private, instead of fouling this thread into full on OT.
I am not affiliated with MM, I live in Sweden so it's not a local bussiness either, and I just don't believe Lane is the moustache twirling evil mastermind that he's made out to be. why? he'd be rich by this point if he were.
12thRonin wrote: So what part didn't you understand? If someone hasn't read the Maelstrom thread or know about the connection of Rob Lane, how would they know otherwise if it's not discussed at length? Scammers are scammers and deserve to be discussed at length.
You quote me saying its right that it's mentioned, then proceed to try and argue with a point I didn't make! MY point was that discussion was going on elsewhere and didn't need to be repeated here at length.
Is that clearer?
Its been mentioned, move on
If you feel a burning need for an in depth discussion then there is a thread in Discussions!
xcasex wrote: yeah see this is why i wrote i'd rather discuss this in private, instead of fouling this thread into full on OT.
I am not affiliated with MM, I live in Sweden so it's not a local bussiness either, and I just don't believe Lane is the moustache twirling evil mastermind that he's made out to be. why? he'd be rich by this point if he were.
Most rotten businessmen I know aren't very rich. They're usually just inept and immoral. The evil genius mastermind businessmen are usually in politics ;p
And this thread was actually doing fine until someone stepped in and said all this hearsay about Rob Lane and MG and Mierce was unsubstantiated, which I think earned the ire of quite a few people -_-
You quote me saying its right that it's mentioned, then proceed to try and argue with a point I didn't make! MY point was that discussion was going on elsewhere and didn't need to be repeated here at length.
Is that clearer?
Its been mentioned, move on
If you feel a burning need for an in depth discussion then there is a thread in Discussions!
That's the point though. You're saying that since it's been discussed before it shouldn't be now. I disagree. Apparently the mods do not either. Your logic says that the next time RSO pops back up, we've talked about him before so lets not bring it back up again because it's been discussed before. (I can play with the size tag too)
Take your own advice about moving on.
@Sining: You're wasting your time with xcasex. You can't argue with a duck. He's quacked enough to show he's got some dog in this fight.
You quote me saying its right that it's mentioned, then proceed to try and argue with a point I didn't make! MY point was that discussion was going on elsewhere and didn't need to be repeated here at length.
Is that clearer?
Its been mentioned, move on
If you feel a burning need for an in depth discussion then there is a thread in Discussions!
That's the point though. You're saying that since it's been discussed before it shouldn't be now. I disagree. Apparently the mods do not either. Your logic says that the next time RSO pops back up, we've talked about him before so lets not bring it back up again because it's been discussed before. (I can play with the size tag too)
Take your own advice about moving on.
Ok. You've still misunderstood my point, but you're a much better person with bigger man parts than me and I'm moving on.
xcasex wrote: Okay I never intended to get into this discussion wrg to Rob Lane, but it bothers me.
Has any of you that have been wronged actually tried emailing, otherwise contacting him personally or for that matter filed some form of lawsuit against the man?
I get the "hurr durr rob lane herp derp" but are there any solid facts?
with the internet its quite easy to get the hatetrain rolling and being someone who was accused by the other side in a similar situation, I actually sued and was cleared of wrongdoing (I was the buyer, not the seller, i was however accused of not paying for the product, which I did, and it was broken)
Furthermore, mobbing up on someone due to what to me is more or less unsubstantiated is bothersome.
I like the sculpt, From what i've read up on it seems the company that did the right thing wrg to the outstanding orders were mierce minis.
You can't really transfer blame left, right and then ruin their rep.
do something about it if they are proven to be up to the same shenanigans again, not before.
I personally lost money on product ordered, paid for, and not supplied. I don't have Rob Lane's personal contact information (do you really think he'd give it out, Mister Straw Man poster?) - but Maelstrom games stopped replying to emails, and then later, stopped answering the telephone (which is how I got most of my money back). There's a thread on Maelstrom in Dakka Discussions. Go find it and read (all of) it before you spout off such rubbish. "are there any solid facts?" indeed.
Rob Lane ruined his own rep. he didn't need the internet to do it for him.
xcasex wrote: Okay I never intended to get into this discussion wrg to Rob Lane, but it bothers me.
Has any of you that have been wronged actually tried emailing, otherwise contacting him personally or for that matter filed some form of lawsuit against the man?
I get the "hurr durr rob lane herp derp" but are there any solid facts?
with the internet its quite easy to get the hatetrain rolling and being someone who was accused by the other side in a similar situation, I actually sued and was cleared of wrongdoing (I was the buyer, not the seller, i was however accused of not paying for the product, which I did, and it was broken)
Furthermore, mobbing up on someone due to what to me is more or less unsubstantiated is bothersome.
I like the sculpt, From what i've read up on it seems the company that did the right thing wrg to the outstanding orders were mierce minis.
You can't really transfer blame left, right and then ruin their rep.
do something about it if they are proven to be up to the same shenanigans again, not before.
I personally lost money on product ordered, paid for, and not supplied. I don't have Rob Lane's personal contact information (do you really think he'd give it out, Mister Straw Man poster?) - but Maelstrom games stopped replying to emails, and then later, stopped answering the telephone (which is how I got most of my money back). There's a thread on Maelstrom in Dakka Discussions. Go find it and read (all of) it before you spout off such rubbish. "are there any solid facts?" indeed.
Rob Lane ruined his own rep. he didn't need the internet to do it for him.
Regardless of how many people point it out to him, xcasex just doesn't seem to be able to get a hold on reality.
We've provided him with facts - Mierce is a spinoff company of Maelstrom. Maelstrom did not fulfil orders and stopped communicating and many people were left in the cold. I think at this point it's best to just give up on that guy.
I really like the kraken and the not-Chaos-Lord is ok, but I'd only buy these models from somewhere else that had them in stock (which annoyingly they don't list stockists on the Mierce website, or they don't have any) - I don't intend to spend time filling out forms to get my money bank through my bank again.
I today got my entire order I placed with Maelstrom Games during their closing sales from Mierce Miniatures. So they (MM) are honouring their statement that they are taking care of the Darklands items ordered from MG.
Well, to wade into this debate...I have already ordered the Cthulhu (c'mon, we know that's what it is!) and the triple-headed snake.
I read all about the Maelstrom website fiasco, but personally, only benefited from it, securing many minis at 40% off, all delivered promptly without fuss. On three occasions I have requested replacement parts due to moulding concerns, all were diligently attended to.
So, yes SOME people out there were burnt...
But not sending your business to Mierce or Eye of the Storm is not the answer.
If anyone still holds out hope that their order might be fulfilled, robbing business and therefore revenue from Mierce is not going to help.
yxalitis wrote: Well, to wade into this debate...I have already ordered the Cthulhu (c'mon, we know that's what it is!) and the triple-headed snake.
I read all about the Maelstrom website fiasco, but personally, only benefited from it, securing many minis at 40% off, all delivered promptly without fuss. On three occasions I have requested replacement parts due to moulding concerns, all were diligently attended to.
So, yes SOME people out there were burnt...
But not sending your business to Mierce or Eye of the Storm is not the answer.
If anyone still holds out hope that their order might be fulfilled, robbing business and therefore revenue from Mierce is not going to help.
Yeah, I don't think Mierce is going to send me the Warlord Games, SWW2 or Vallejo stuff I ordered from Lane's other business somehow. While it's lovely to know that you personally got a ton of stuff heavily discounted, it doesn't negate all the people that got ripped off. Perhaps they could offer to send people their ripped-off-by-Maelstrom-dollar-value in Mierce product if they want to calm the hating? Resin is cheap after all....
I'd also suggest that if people want the hating to end, they should stop replying to it instead of telling people who dislike Rob Lane to STFU, and this includes our friendly Mierce rep. Bringing up how great a bloke Rob Lane is in this thread is what got this otherwise-quiet thread going in the current manner.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Can there be more awesome miniature pics and less panty-wadding in this thread?
nope, i apparently have something to gain by using reason.
best of luck though!
I know I shouldn't, but what reason? You've tried to deny things as unsubstantiated despite being given references to substantial evidence from multiple sources. What has been unsubstantiated, and I'll provide you links to evidence.
We've had official statements from MG themselves, some of their debtors and distributors, plenty of statements from customers who've lost money and some who've had money refunded via paypal (for which their account was cancelled) or credit cards, due to a lack of communication.
I personally tried emailing / calling them many times about an incorrect order in the last few weeks and got nothing. I had a couple of items paid for but not sent, that I'll never see again, but to the tune of about £10, so not worth small claims court (£50), and I saved more than that from the clearance sales (I risked a fair bit of money on them thinking they just needed a cash flow boost). Due to the poor way it was handled I'd be reluctant to risk money with any of his ventures again.
There are plenty of rumours here, but there is a pretty common theme to them (so either there's some truth to the matter or a lot of people are making up similar stories). But there are also plenty of substantiated facts.
It's also worth noting that whilst many customers have lost £10's, some have lost £100's, and there are suppliers / debtors who have lost £10,000's and even £100,000's (that's hundreds of thousands of pounds). So we're not talking about a small venture ripping off a few people, we're talking about debts that will have a serious effect on the entire industry - the debt was nearly enough to bring down at least one of their suppliers. For Rob to shut down MG with "we're gone busy, sorry." and then suddenly other venture of his are trying to claim to have nothing to do with MG and that there were no problems is a bit of an insult to all of those that lost out and know better.
His reasoning is one fishy sob story with lots of holes by a mierce representative = substantiated while 50 pages of dozens of people complaining about how maelstrom stiffed them = unsubstantiated -_-
While the models are quite cool, their names and so on are utterly unpronouncable.
As to the MG/MM thing - MG had been my exclusive online store of choice for several years before they tanked. They gave reasonable (if very slow every now and then) service. I had a look at getting stuff during their fire sale and kept reading the thread about how people were not getting their orders and decided not to bother.
I have to say that MG's comunication throughout the whole thing was woeful and left me not wanting to have much to do with anyone in the management of MG. They squandered years of good rep they had with me in a few weeks/months. And to be honest it will take a lot for me to have anything to do with them again.
sining, "sob story" really. see this is what we call unsubstantiated. the thing is that you can't say who did what without having oversight of the company, you don't have that, you have some scarce information and to compound it further you are far too emotionally invested to be critical of all information.
Like I've said before, when the internet hatetrain gets going it has a lot in common with mob justice, which is fraught with over exaggerations.
The company went tits up, that's the reality of it.
and all of this discussion like I said before to those interested in replying to my post a page back, you can reach me via PM -- without becoming childish and telling me to read what i've already read -- As this discussion doesn't belong in this thread.
oh and, it'd be swell if you guys could refrain from inflating my thoughts with whatever you think is my opinion.
and all of this discussion like I said before to those interested in replying to my post a page back, you can reach me via PM -- without becoming childish and telling me to read what i've already read -- As this discussion doesn't belong in this thread.
If you don't want it discussed in this thread then stop discussing it. Seriously!
People on both sides of the issue have posted, made their points, and moved on. My last post was a few pages ago. You should do the same if you want people to stop replying to your points . As it is now, you are almost solely the cause of this continuing discussion, since you keep replying saying you don't want to talk about it here, while simultaneously making the same point over and over.
and all of this discussion like I said before to those interested in replying to my post a page back, you can reach me via PM -- without becoming childish and telling me to read what i've already read -- As this discussion doesn't belong in this thread.
If you don't want it discussed in this thread then stop discussing it. Seriously!
Rob Lane didn't rip off anyone, like the moon landing or the holocaust
OK, I guess we've reached Official Public Warning Time?
Moving forward, Off Topic and/or Rule #1 Violating Posts will earn the user in question a sanction of some sort. Sanction to be commensurate with level of offense.
Mierce Miniatures do have a 'history'.
This is the "Official" New and Rumors thread for Mierce here on Dakka Dakka.
Their history is well known - and can be seen right here in this very thread.
If anyone wishes to continue to discuss that history, please do so in a different thread - maybe in Dakka Discussions?
SilverMK2 wrote: While the models are quite cool, their names and so on are utterly unpronouncable.
This for the love of all that is holy
Seriously there is a huge difference between using some unique names from various cultures (such as Bjorn or Ryu) and just slapping your forehead on the keybord
Tvubyhawd The Uafsijn. There, I just made a new monster!
SilverMK2 wrote: While the models are quite cool, their names and so on are utterly unpronouncable.
This for the love of all that is holy
Seriously there is a huge difference between using some unique names from various cultures (such as Bjorn or Ryu) and just slapping your forehead on the keybord
Tvubyhawd The Uafsijn. There, I just made a new monster!
Apparently the names are Welsh.
Yes, a rare and odd language, but not just random keyboard bashing.
Apparently the names are Welsh.
Yes, a rare and odd language, but not just random keyboard bashing.
Well forgive my ignorance then
But still, theres a reason people tend not to make Fantasy Wales . And even then it doesnt make sense to name every faction out of welsh names, unless all of this indeed does take place in fantasy Wales
I never ordered from Mealstrom games, but i checked the celtic marines when the sales were going on, but by then the good stuff was gone, i like some of the figures posted here but reading the thread on mealstrom and other sites, i will refrain from ordering stuff, even if this is a "new" company, it is blemished by the previous happenings.
Saying it is a new start and the 2 companies are not related is ignorant IMHO.
xcasex it is nice that you don't see any problems with it, but don't belittle the people who had lots of problems getting their order, at least you should understand why they are suspicious of this "new" company.
I can't put my finger on it, but some of the more recent sculpts just don't seem to have some of the quality of the older ones (not some of the original 5 or 6 which were horrific).
Denilsta wrote: I can't put my finger on it, but some of the more recent sculpts just don't seem to have some of the quality of the older ones (not some of the original 5 or 6 which were horrific).
In my opinion, I have to completely disagree. And don't get me wrong, Aragorn Marks is one of my favourite sculptors. But in my view, I'd rather say that the quality of the recent sculpts are by far better than the earlier ones. Of course, there are a few recent ones that isn't my taste, but all in all, the quality is way up.
Something is off about the Kraken. It's an excellent set of design elements that somehow doesn't coalesce into a coherent whole.
The biggest problem is everything interesting is basically happening from the shoulders up. Rather than the eye being drawn all over the miniature I feel like I'm trapped in some mad octopus jumble and the human parts (because there is a jarring separation) just don't matter. The bizarre squatting pose doesn't look terribly natural either. And it has the typical Banebeasts problem of "Where did he find armour plates his size?"
Not that the mini is bad mind. It's just not as good as it could be.
Also, the Axe-Drune Champion would be alright if it weren't for his absurdly oversized axe.
Just got this in my email from Maelstrom Games (I was subscribed to their newsletter, although I had successfully unsubscribed in AUGUST). An email on behalf of Mierce Miniatures:
Maelstrom Games - MIERCE MINIATURES SALE wrote:Hi there,
You are receiving this e-mail because you have ordered BaneLegions or Templar's Forge products from ourselves in the past. As Maelstrom Games is currently undergoing liquidation and will cease to exist in 2013, you cannot buy those products from us any more, but of course you can get them from the company we sold the BaneLegions and Templar's Forge ranges to back in May - Mierce Miniatures!
As well as that, those nice guys at Mierce (www.mierce-miniatures.com) are currently running a 20% off UK RRP festive sale until the 2nd of January on their Darklands and BaneLegions ranges, so if you'd like to grab some of those amazing miniatures such as such as Krull or The Terror of Fortriu or Kraan or Euryalia or tons of others, including their superb new releases Clundwr, Uuthüll, Hirakoth and Arthyen of Carn Maen, now's the time!
THE MIERCE MINIATURES VOUCHER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Their 20% off UK RRP discount voucher ends on Wednesday the 2nd of January 2013 at midnight (GMT), and it will work on all of the items in the Mierce Miniatures webstore from the BaneLegions and Darklands ranges but not on any Templar's Forge products or Components.
Your voucher code is: CHRISTMAS-SALE
To use this voucher simply register on their webstore, www.mierce-miniatures.com (if you haven't already), copy and paste the code into the Voucher field in your basket when you have selected the items you want, press 'REDEEM', and the webstore will do the rest. You are not limited to one purchase and, indeed, Mierce asks you to recommend them to your friends with this voucher!
Happy Ordering!
Here is the last email I got from Maelstrom before unsubscribing on August 16th:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom Games - 20% OFF ALL GW ENDS TONIGHT! wrote:Hi there,
This is just a reminder to let you know that our awesome 20% off UK RRP sale for all Games Workshop products here at Maelstrom Games (www.maelstromgames.co.uk) ends tonight - so you'd better get your skates on!!
YOUR GW-SALE VOUCHER
----------------------------------------------------------
Your 20% off UK RRP discount voucher ends tonight, Monday, 13th of August 2012 at midnight (GMT).
The voucher will ONLY work on Games Workshop items within our webstore - Warhammer Fantasy Battle, Warhammer 40,000, Lord of the Rings, Citadel Hobby and Black Library - and nothing else!
It's a great chance to grab yourself all those lovely new Games Workshop products, such as the superb new edition of Warhammer 40,000, the awesome new Chaos Daemons, the amazing Necrons and Ogre Kingdoms and - well, loads of amazing miniatures!
Your voucher code is: GW-SUMMER
To use this voucher simply register on the webstore, www.maelstromgames.co.uk (if you haven't already), copy and paste the code into the Voucher field in your basket when you have selected the items you want, press 'REDEEM', and the webstore will do the rest. You are not limited to one purchase and, indeed, we would ask you to recommend us to your friends with this voucher!
Remember though that this voucher is intended for the webstore only - it does not apply to any of our auctions or Fixed Price items on eBay.
Happy Ordering!
And here is a copy of the email unsubscribing from their mailing list, also received on August 16th:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom Games - UNSUBSCRIPTION SUCCESSFUL wrote:Hello,
Your e-mail address is now unsubscribed from our mailing list! You will not be mailed again and we would like to apologise for any annoyance we have caused to you by sending previous e-mails.
SUBSCRIBE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can of course subscribe again by visiting the Mailing List page at http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=mai!
To send a "20% off products" email that is nearly identical to their normal sale emails (see the spoilered email above), but directing folks to Mierce Miniatures rather than themselves is almost too much. To send such an email even to people who unsubscribed from their mailing list months ago probably breaks some laws, too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm considering reporting them to this agency:
As a one-off instance, it may not interest them much. However, if I find out that any of my information was given to Mierce Miniatures, or if I get any further emails from Maelstrom, I will definitely be doing so. It bothers me that my email was still on file ready to be sent to months after unsubscribing- I've actually never had this happen with any entity I've dealt with before. My feeling is that governments take the requirement to be able to "unsubscribe" from further mailings from a company rather seriously.
It actually is somewhat worrying- I originally unsubscribed to Maelstrom because those discount emails became so frequent and so... insistent in their tone. Or desperate...
It could be that Mierce is having trouble generating business through means such as this (posting about their wares on forums) where people are able to alert one another to the circumstances that led to their creation and to use caution.
Emailing customers who have ordered from Maelstrom in the past (whether they have unsubscribed or not) direct through the Maelstrom email address is a means to avoid that conversation...
But yeah, it'll be concerning if these become anywhere near as frequent as Maelstrom's own sale emails did towards the end. Of course, my assumption is this is a one-off attempt, since I really shouldn't have received any ads from this company after unsubscribing.
Well I don't know the USA law regarding data protection but I'm pretty sure that this would be worth a complaint to the relevant authority in the UK. This behaviour is on a par with PPI phone calls, once you have Unsubscribed that should be it.
20% off is a nice deal. But MM is always offering 10% off, so it isn't really that big of a difference. I will be getting a few still, though. Some discount is better than none.
.....OK, which marketing 'genius' thought it'd be a good idea to take the brand name of a reviled company that stiffed quite a few people and use it to ADVERTISE for the supposedly unrelated shell company? This sort of shenanigans should be reserved for April 1st
RiTides wrote: It actually is somewhat worrying- I originally unsubscribed to Maelstrom because those discount emails became so frequent and so... insistent in their tone. Or desperate...
It could be that Mierce is having trouble generating business through means such as this (posting about their wares on forums) where people are able to alert one another to the circumstances that led to their creation and to use caution.
Emailing customers who have ordered from Maelstrom in the past (whether they have unsubscribed or not) direct through the Maelstrom email address is a means to avoid that conversation...
But yeah, it'll be concerning if these become anywhere near as frequent as Maelstrom's own sale emails did towards the end. Of course, my assumption is this is a one-off attempt, since I really shouldn't have received any ads from this company after unsubscribing.
If you need to complain about them here where to go as they shouln't have contacted you without permission
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Well I don't know the USA law regarding data protection but I'm pretty sure that this would be worth a complaint to the relevant authority in the UK. This behaviour is on a par with PPI phone calls, once you have Unsubscribed that should be it.
Yeah, I think I found the right authority but ninja-edited it in above:
I probably won't do anything unless they contact me further or give my information to Mierce Miniatures. But if someone from the UK could confirm that that's the right people to contact if I decide to, that'd be helfpful.
Edit: Ah, missed the page rollover! Thanks for confirming that that is the right link, Orlando.
Sining wrote: .....OK, which marketing 'genius' thought it'd be a good idea to take the brand name of a reviled company that stiffed quite a few people and use it to ADVERTISE for the supposedly unrelated shell company? This sort of shenanigans should be reserved for April 1st
Yeah. I'm right with you. Just got the same email and my first thought was, "Wow...using the Same mailin list AND sending it from a maelstrom account? That's ballsy."
I don't know who's brilliant idea it was to do so, but quite frankly it makes me want the $40 bucks back they ripped me off of (and previously I was pretty much over it...)
Definitely won't be touching Mierce with a 10 ft barge pole - obviously still same issues with Maelstrom. It is a shame as I REALLY want some of those mini's.
Hopefully anyone contemplating even ordering from them, though god along knows why, takes adequate steps to ensure they can get their money back.
Hmm... with all this complaining I wonder if we're due for a message from a Maelstrom/Mierce rep who informs us that we all of the complaints are invalid because we just don't know as much about the situation as they do so we should just all stop saying anything about them that isn't glowing praise.
I finally got around to clicking the "Unsubscribe" link (which I obviously already did in the past)- it now leads to a page with Maelstrom's "going out of business" notice, and no way to unsubscribe.
Replying with "Remove" as the title just has the message bounce back as undeliverable.
Seriously thinking of contacting the ICO if they communicate in any way further, as there is no means of telling them to stop... is anyone else considering doing so? If it came to that, weight of numbers would probably help them take more notice than otherwise.
Fair play - I don't think I could have imagined a more stupid business move than to use a company that crashed and burned with such damage to its reputation to advertise your wares.
What were they thinking? Surely the owners (who are totally independent of Maelstrom of -course) didn't sit round a table and dream up this stupidity without one of them going "do you really think this is such a good idea after what went wrong with Maelstrom?"
For those of us who have purchased Bane stuff from Maelstrom and were wavering about ordering (i.e me) this served as a timely reminder that this new company doesn't pass the sniff test.
Alpharius wrote: OK, I guess we've reached Official Public Warning Time?
Moving forward, Off Topic and/or Rule #1 Violating Posts will earn the user in question a sanction of some sort. Sanction to be commensurate with level of offense.
Mierce Miniatures do have a 'history'.
This is the "Official" New and Rumors thread for Mierce here on Dakka Dakka.
Their history is well known - and can be seen right here in this very thread.
If anyone wishes to continue to discuss that history, please do so in a different thread - maybe in Dakka Discussions?
Thanks!
When even mods are ignoring this its no suprise that most of this thread is almost completely off topic.
Palindrome, many of us got an email with a discount coupon for Mierce Miniatures from Maelstrom Games. That is 100% on topic, and it is not a discussion of their "history"- it is current events.
What to do if Maelstrom Games continue to attempt to send out emails for Mierce Miniatures, with no means of unsubscribing from said emails, is also relevant.
I feel really bad for the employees of Mierce who just want their paycheck every week. I also feel really bad for people who got ripped off by Rob Lane.
RiTides wrote: Palindrome, many of us got an email with a discount coupon for Mierce Miniatures from Maelstrom Games. That is 100% on topic, and it is not a discussion of their "history"- it is current events.
What to do if Maelstrom Games continue to attempt to send out emails for Mierce Miniatures, with no means of unsubscribing from said emails, is also relevant.
Which must be why most of the page, even after the mod warning, is full of the same off topic content as most of the rest of the thread? Incidentally I haven't gotten an Email from Maelstrom for months and I never even unsubcribed from their mailing list.
By all means put a prominent warning post in this thread, or start a new one with a warming in the first post, but when the majority of posts cover the same off topic subject its just tedious to read. Out of a 7 page thread maybe 1 page is about the miniatures the rest may as well have been copied directly from posts tha have already been made by the same people in the massive 'buiscuit' thread.
It is also possible that Mierce Miniatures are completely legitmate, even if they are both owned by the same man, so swamping this thread with posts about Maelstrom Games is unfair to them.
If they didn't want people to start talking about their connection to MG, then perhaps they SHOULDN'T have used MG to mail people about their latest promotion. This thread wasn't even on the first page until it was revived with the news about MG mailing people on MMs behalf
I actually cut-n-pasted the email over in the Maelstrom thread with my reaction (which was "WTF?") - but found the discussion is happening here, which is completely understandable and relevant.
It's funny. This thread kicks off most of all when people like yourself start trying to be armchair mods and tell everyone else off for being off-topic... Maybe just leave it alone so it can die a natural death again like your sig says.
Maelstrom sent out a mass email for a Mierce Miniatures sale. That's a pretty clear point of relevance...
scipio.au wrote: It's funny. This thread kicks off most of all when people like yourself start trying to be armchair mods and tell everyone else off for being off-topic... Maybe just leave it alone so it can die a natural death again like your sig says.
You mean that this thread becomes a duplicate of the other thread due to the relatively small number of posters who seem desperately to want to organise a lynch mob for Rob Lane?
This thread needs to be locked and a new one, properly policed this time, created.
Then hit the mod alert button palindrome. If they deem it so thenTHEY will make it so, otherwise let it die. U have never owned or subscribed to MG, but have though about buying some of the figs. I appreciate people discussing this here. I can see one person post and think its a fluke, but to see everyone post about it makes up my mind.
scipio.au wrote: It's funny. This thread kicks off most of all when people like yourself start trying to be armchair mods and tell everyone else off for being off-topic... Maybe just leave it alone so it can die a natural death again like your sig says.
You mean that this thread becomes a duplicate of the other thread due to the relatively small number of posters who seem desperately to want to organise a lynch mob for Rob Lane?
This thread needs to be locked and a new one, properly policed this time, created.
Why?
So that people can just glance over the fact that Rob Lane knowingly ripped of dozens of people and seems to be trying to do it again?
So that new users can't be warned to MM's owner shady practices and can be fooled like all the others were?
Besides, the Mods have already stated that MM's history is on-topic as long as there are new developments to it. These emails definitively count as new developments so should be considered on-topic as well.
I already have but as one of the mods is one of the poeple who insist upon dragging this thread off topic I have little hope that anything will be done.
Maybe I will start copy pasting posts from GW pricing threads into their rumour threads and see how that goes, it is after all effectively the same thing.
You've made your point, time to move on (note that I haven't replied to you except the first time). At this point you're not talking about anything to do with Mierce Miniatures and just repeating yourself.
Continually discussing whether you think a thread is OT or not eventually becomes OT itself, as this entire last page is dominated by replies to you alone.
Agreed, get back on topic and do not spam the thread with repetitious postings please.
Please stick to the release at hand, if you want to discuss rob lane please do so in a discussions thread, you can point to it here but this thread should primarily be dealing with the products in question please.
MajorTom11 wrote: Agreed, get back on topic and do not spam the thread with repetitious postings please.
Please stick to the release at hand, if you want to discuss rob lane please do so in a discussions thread, you can point to it here but this thread should primarily be dealing with the products in question please.
I recieved this e-mail as well. I do like their sculpts, but disagree with this bussiness dealings, therefore I won't buy from them directly. So I hit up TheWarstore.com 's sale last night instead. Likely shipping will be faster anyways.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year from all at Mierce Miniatures!
The festivities are over for another year and it's nearly 2013, too, which means lots more superb miniatures (and more besides) from us here in rainy Mierce!
As it's the holidays we thought we'd celebrate by giving you all a whopping 20% off UK RRP on all of our Darklands and BaneLegions miniatures - so here's the details of our Boxing Day to New Year sale on our webstore, extending from today right up to the 2nd of January, 2013!
Your Sale Voucher Details
Your 20% off UK RRP discount voucher ends on Wednesday the 2nd of January 2013 at midnight (GMT), and you really do have some superb miniatures to spend your hard-earned on!
... and then the code CHRISTMAS-SALE and some fine print about how to redeem it, etc.
They also sent a follow up email explaining the code didn't work for some people and they fixed some bug, and extending the sale to the 7th or so.
judgedoug wrote:
....... to spend your hard-earned on!
Wording straight out of every Maelstrom discount email I have received. This "new" company continually fails to pass the sniff test. It feels more and more like Maelstrom lite.
You know for those of you who never received their order from Maelstrom, the LAST thing you want to do is to slow or impair the profitability of the new company.
You have two choices, harp on about your loss, and warn the world, OR support them in their latest endeavours.
Why on Earth would you do the latter?
If they go bust, no one wins, not you, not them, not any future potential purchases of their fine products.
If they are successful then maybe you'll get recompense for your lost orders, a business that is doing well can afford to help out when they can.
Food for thought.
yxalitis wrote: You know for those of you who never received their order from Maelstrom, the LAST thing you want to do is to slow or impair the profitability of the new company.
You have two choices, harp on about your loss, and warn the world, OR support them in their latest endeavours.
Why on Earth would you do the latter?
If they go bust, no one wins, not you, not them, not any future potential purchases of their fine products.
If they are successful then maybe you'll get recompense for your lost orders, a business that is doing well can afford to help out when they can.
Food for thought.
They outright lied to us for months on end, I'm sure that they will come right along and make right on all those unfulfilled orders... any time now...
You brought this thread back up to the front page to say that?
Mierce has made it very clear that they consider themselves a separate entity. Mierce becoming profitable ≠ people getting refunds (for anything other than Banebeasts). Again, they've been very clear about that.
yxalitis wrote: You know for those of you who never received their order from Maelstrom, the LAST thing you want to do is to slow or impair the profitability of the new company.
You have two choices, harp on about your loss, and warn the world, OR support them in their latest endeavours.
Why on Earth would you do the latter?
If they go bust, no one wins, not you, not them, not any future potential purchases of their fine products.
If they are successful then maybe you'll get recompense for your lost orders, a business that is doing well can afford to help out when they can.
Food for thought.
So in order to get our orders we've already paid money for, we should give money to the same boss who took our money already previously and sent us nothing and HOPE he sends us something? Um...kay....
yxalitis wrote: If they go bust, no one wins, not you, not them, not any future potential purchases of their fine products.
Oh, I don't know.... I think pretty much everyone in the market benefits by removing dishonest companies that don't provide product when payment is rendered. One might even go so far as to say the entire Internet benefits.
RiTides wrote: You brought this thread back up to the front page to say that?
Mierce has made it very clear that they consider themselves a separate entity. Mierce becoming profitable ≠ people getting refunds (for anything other than Banebeasts). Again, they've been very clear about that.
Possibly a sock puppet/mate of someone there. 6 posts, 4 of which are in this thread talking about why we should buy from Mierce including "I bought their Cthulhu". 1 post on Reaper's KS thread slagging off their Cthulhu, and 1 random PP post. The bump (and associated followups, such as this one) gets them a bunch more attention.
also...
yxalitis wrote: You know for those of you who never received their order from Maelstrom, the LAST thing you want to do is to slow or impair the profitability of the new company.
You have two choices, harp on about your loss, and warn the world, OR support them in their latest endeavours.
Why on Earth would you do the latter?
This. I do not think it means what you think it means...
I'm going to go for the former. I don't think Mierce are getting a lot of their stock from Warlord, Vallejo or West Wind...
Just picked up their Gwyfern at an LGS' Boxing Day sale. It's been on my "to buy at some point, maybe" list since it came out (I have a lot of needlessly specific miniature related lists).
Looks great from an initial examination. Will be a while before I get to break it out and prep for assembly though.
LGS owner seemed unaware of the issues associated with the line's ownership, he's been carrying them since he opened last year. It doesn't sell as well as he'd like, but he'll continue to stock a small selection as long as it's available to his distributor.
That's the only source I'm likely to buy Mierce miniatures from.
From a miniature lover's perspective this whole situation is a real shame.
RiTides wrote: You brought this thread back up to the front page to say that?
Mierce has made it very clear that they consider themselves a separate entity. Mierce becoming profitable ≠ people getting refunds (for anything other than Banebeasts). Again, they've been very clear about that.
Possibly a sock puppet/mate of someone there. 6 posts, 4 of which are in this thread talking about why we should buy from Mierce including "I bought their Cthulhu". 1 post on Reaper's KS thread slagging off their Cthulhu, and 1 random PP post. The bump (and associated followups, such as this one) gets them a bunch more attention.
also...
yxalitis wrote: You know for those of you who never received their order from Maelstrom, the LAST thing you want to do is to slow or impair the profitability of the new company.
You have two choices, harp on about your loss, and warn the world, OR support them in their latest endeavours.
Why on Earth would you do the latter?
This. I do not think it means what you think it means...
I'm going to go for the former. I don't think Mierce are getting a lot of their stock from Warlord, Vallejo or West Wind...
Hmm, yes, I have a vested interest in keeping good mini manufacturers keeping making good minis.
I live in Australia, clearly don't work for Mierce.
I still don;t like the Reaper Cthulhu..at all, I am able to express my opinion i take?
Note that I made that post way before Mierce announced their mini, so I couldn't possibly be doing it to favour one company's product over another, now was I?
And yes I said "latter", when I meant "former", but I won't edit the post, as reading the context will reveal the intent.
Without getting into an argument that I can't be bothered with -
When the vast majority of a new poster's posts are in a couple of threads defending/promoting/etc a particular manufacturer/line/product, it's pretty suspicious. People who do such things are often sock puppets or friends/associates of people involved in the production or sales of said products.
This is true across most forums on the internets. Being on one point of the planet over another doesn't really preclude anything either. Especially these days. I'm in Australia as well and I've been associated with a miniatures manufacturer in the US many years ago as well as a 1:6 model retailer located in California. I know a couple of people locally with close ties to Infinity. My good and close personal friend HMBC has done some work for Fantasy Flight. He's also located in Australia.
People have their reasons for disliking Mierce/Lane/Maelstrom. It's probably time to stop bumping this thread to defend them (which always results in a few interesting posts) and just let it go so that the new releases can be shown every so often. Well, if Mierce can stop defending Rob Lane and sending out spam emails to Maelstrom's mailing list(!)
And I do hope they go bust. Talented people such as the sculptors will be able to get work elsewhere. Lane and those who still work for him who think he's just a nice guy, a little misunderstood, and either helped to perpetuate or simply don't give two hoots about the endless lies and grand ripoff that he/they perpetrated.. well I don't much care if they have jobs or end up on the dole.
One thing that may concern some people is that Mierce Miniatures is somehow tainted by association with the former owners of our miniatures range, Maelstrom Games. We can assure you that this should not be so. Mierce Miniatures is a completely separate legal entity, existing from March 2012, and purchased the BaneLegions range entirely legally from Maelstrom Games in May of 2012 (rebranding 90% of it as Darklands) - long before Maelstrom Games' troubles began. We are unaffected by any issues regarding Maelstrom Games whatsoever and this Kickstarter project will be fulfilled - as long as we reach our target, of course!
Remember, too, Kickstarter's own words: if you don't like a project, don't back it. There's no need to be a jerk!
Hmm. A few observations:
- Value doesn't appear to be really there yet - seems they're counting on hitting quite a few stretch goals?
- Not connected to mr. Lane? Riiight. Still, I feel they'll deliver on this (makes much, much more business sense to do so even from the most immoral possible point of view and even MG's issues were more those of incompetent crisis management than those of pure evil )
- When kickstarting a game system, us gamers generally appreciate getting a whiff of the actual rules involved Not much beyond "quickstart rules" here (and REALLY? not even a complete ruleset PDF included at those price points? Come on...) or, if that's somehow impossible, at least a general direction and some names of designers with proven track records involved (and really if you're looking to sell a skirmish system in this market you better have a big name involved if you're not going to show actual rules yet...)
To be fair it's just 11 sculpts they would have done anyway - the rest is just retail orders with a three month lead time (hell, it's feeling just like old-times MG already )
"Become your own ancestor!" There's a Futurama joke somewhere in there.
Well, my finances have already taken a beating from too many Kickstarters last year, so I suppose I should be grateful for the Maelstrom link. No matter how gorgeous the minis are, that'll stop me from spending any money on this.
I see they lowballed this so they're pretty much guaranteed to get the 5k in funding. Whether any of the backers will receive their stuff remains to be seen -_-
Wouldn't touch this with a fifty foot pole, low target sounds like they are just trying to get some money quick to pay the rent as they are in financial trouble.
Sining wrote: I see they lowballed this so they're pretty much guaranteed to get the 5k in funding. Whether any of the backers will receive their stuff remains to be seen -_-
They will make it and several stretch goals. If the Avatars of War indiegogo was an indicator, people will throw money at a project even when people are telling them directly to not trust the company. Did AoW finally deliver all their stuff? Think the "official" delivery date has come and gone.
Sining wrote: I see they lowballed this so they're pretty much guaranteed to get the 5k in funding. Whether any of the backers will receive their stuff remains to be seen -_-
They will make it and several stretch goals. If the Avatars of War indiegogo was an indicator, people will throw money at a project even when people are telling them directly to not trust the company. Did AoW finally deliver all their stuff? Think the "official" delivery date has come and gone.
Hold it right there!
AoW might be slow and lacking good communication, but they are NOT scamming anyone. NExt week they will have released 3 Dwarf units with 3 heroes. Not as much as they and we hoped, but it's a start.
And pledged for a unit of trolls.
Mierce MIniatures had AWESOME customer service, great miniatures and with some of the pledges you get some really nice prices.
I have to admit, I'd love to pledge, but Kickstarter, from what I can gather, offers less protection than eBay, PayPal and certainly your credit card company.
Too nervous about this one - staying on the sidelines...
Alpharius wrote: I have to admit, I'd love to pledge, but Kickstarter, from what I can gather, offers less protection than eBay, PayPal and certainly your credit card company.
Too nervous about this one - staying on the sidelines...
That's my big concern. They're already answering questions on the Forums, so that's....encouraging.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: It seems a bit dodgy to tell people that there is no connection between maelstrom and Mierce when both companies are owned by the same person.
They rather slyly didn't say that there is no connection... just that they are a completely separate legal entity from Maelstrom. Which is true.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: It seems a bit dodgy to tell people that there is no connection between maelstrom and Mierce when both companies are owned by the same person.
They rather slyly didn't say that there is no connection... just that they are a completely separate legal entity from Maelstrom. Which is true.
Misleading, but true.
I thought the company was created in 2009 not 2012 (though it was dormant), so a little bit of inaccuracy *shrugs*
I was hoping for a skirmish game, not interested in a unit based game as I have KoW and WHF, but I'll keep an eye on the rules out of interest.
Alpharius wrote: I have to admit, I'd love to pledge, but Kickstarter, from what I can gather, offers less protection than eBay, PayPal and certainly your credit card company.
Too nervous about this one - staying on the sidelines...
That's my big concern. They're already answering questions on the Forums, so that's....encouraging.
I guess?
I mean, they can say whatever they want, but certain individuals who apparently still have a say in their company did some things which went directly against what they were saying they'd be doing.
I got a piece of the Maelstorm fire sales, and I got all that I bought from Mierce Miniatures a few months later. They've had excellent customer service in regards to me personally. Because of this I will put in an early pledge. Will it remain? Well, that will depend on the value of the KS in the end.
The quality of the miniatures are ace, and sculpted by the top people in the industry. Because of this alone I want them to succeed.
One thing that may concern some people is that Mierce Miniatures is somehow tainted by association with the former owners of our miniatures range, Maelstrom Games. We can assure you that this should not be so. Mierce Miniatures is a completely separate legal entity, existing from March 2012, and purchased the BaneLegions range entirely legally from Maelstrom Games in May of 2012 (rebranding 90% of it as Darklands) - long before Maelstrom Games' troubles began. We are unaffected by any issues regarding Maelstrom Games whatsoever and this Kickstarter project will be fulfilled - as long as we reach our target, of course!
Remember, too, Kickstarter's own words: if you don't like a project, don't back it. There's no need to be a jerk!
In other words:
"We have nothing to do with the jerks who ran the Maelstrom scam. Your money is absolutely safe with us. Signed, Rob Lane." Good thing, I don't want a complete army showing their balls
When I'd first heard about the possibility of a Bane Legions Kickstarter I thought I'd be all over it. But that was before the Maelstrom incident happened (and I lost out on about £4 of bases). Now it'd have to be a phenomenal deal for me to consider it as there's no way to tell if the management can now be trusted.
grefven wrote: I got a piece of the Maelstorm fire sales, and I got all that I bought from Mierce Miniatures a few months later. They've had excellent customer service in regards to me personally. Because of this I will put in an early pledge. Will it remain? Well, that will depend on the value of the KS in the end.
The quality of the miniatures are ace, and sculpted by the top people in the industry. Because of this alone I want them to succeed.
This exact thing happend with me. I did not receive the rest of the order from Malestrom.
Listen, the Maelstrom 'incident' sucked. But I knew going in that I may not receive my wares. When I made the order, I took a calculated risk. Was getting the Bane Legions bear dude for like, $10 bucks worth losing that $10 bucks. For me, it was.
There was a gamble involved. I decided I was willing gamble with up to $50 for what amounted to over $300 of merch. I ended up getting a partial order which, while wasn't my full $50, was still worth nearly $200 retail. For about $30 bucks.
Kickstarter is the same. It's a calculated risk. I'm willing to take it for now. But the beauty is that, if I feel differently in 29 days, I can pull my money.
Such a shame about all the Maelstorm mess because some of the minis are quite good.
Would have been nice to see Mierce Miniatures post these KS news on this thread that they created here on Dakka... Maybe it was just a innocent mistake because the last thing these guys need is yet another silence treatment! If they want to regain credibility they need to start doing things differently.
Sining wrote: I see they lowballed this so they're pretty much guaranteed to get the 5k in funding. Whether any of the backers will receive their stuff remains to be seen -_-
They will make it and several stretch goals. If the Avatars of War indiegogo was an indicator, people will throw money at a project even when people are telling them directly to not trust the company. Did AoW finally deliver all their stuff? Think the "official" delivery date has come and gone.
Hold it right there!
AoW might be slow and lacking good communication, but they are NOT scamming anyone. NExt week they will have released 3 Dwarf units with 3 heroes. Not as much as they and we hoped, but it's a start.
People still haven't gotten much. Saying you will deliver something in July 2012 and people still don't have it come January 2013 is still a scam. It just doesn't border criminal levels of scamming like Maelstrom has.
Since I trusted my feelings when MG started to act strange (nearly 1-2 years ago), I will not touch this with a ten-feet- pole and only buy their miniatures form stores I can trust.
If it smells like a Phoenix, tastes like a Phoenix and looks like a Phoenix it probably might be a Phoenix.
BrookM wrote: Clever girl, setting a low goal like that.
I wonder if the actual purpose of this is to attempt to build up a reliable reputation. It's something they can point to and say 'look we delivered on a promise'.
It's not a bad idea if they want to move forwards (from this point onwards) as a respectable company.
BrookM wrote: Clever girl, setting a low goal like that.
I wonder if the actual purpose of this is to attempt to build up a reliable reputation. It's something they can point to and say 'look we delivered on a promise'.
It's not a bad idea if they want to move forwards (from this point onwards) as a respectable company.
I'd say that if they want to move forward as a respectable company, they should start by sacking their Managing Director and distancing themselves as far as possible away from him.
If they want to be seen as a respectable company then they have to get rid of rob lane. I would love to see the employees buy him out and then get on with producing what is a good quality product. If that was the case then I would wholeheartedly support the company, but while he is still Involved in anyway then i just can't have anything to do with them.
I do love those Taurex. Got some before the Maelstrom fiasco. But I also can't forget the Japanese proverb, “The reputation of a thousand years may be determined by the conduct of one hour.”
Mr. Lane, regardless of the legal technicalities of how he set up Mierce Miniatures, had his one hour.... It'll take a lot to overcome that...
recruittons wrote: I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.
I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.
recruittons wrote: I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.
I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.
Yes, I think people should be informed.
It is in the comments section already, but not detailed.
That being said, I do have confidence in this more than maelstrom... the business model is not as odd (and RoW shipping isn't free )
recruittons wrote: I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.
I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.
Can't someone just pledge 1 dollar or the min pledge level to post the comments and then pull it before the KS ends?
Of course, they might just delete the comments -_-
People still haven't gotten much. Saying you will deliver something in July 2012 and people still don't have it come January 2013 is still a scam. It just doesn't border criminal levels of scamming like Maelstrom has.
Wrong.
A Scam is taking money without ANYTHING in return.
AoW delivers. Slowly, but steadily.
THAT IS NOT A SCAM.
Stop saying AoW is scamming anyone without anykind of proof.
recruittons wrote: I warned away a few people from this by pointing them to this thread and letting them make their own decisions. It seemed to be quite effective.
I wish someone would post a link to this or the Dakka Discussions thread in the KS comments for those unaware of the history here / danger of giving them money through an avenue like Kickstarter. Unfortunately, to do so you have to pledge. I know many may still risk it- but at least people would have the facts who don't check Dakka / other wargaming forums.
Anyone can pledge and withdraw it before the kickstarter finishes.
apologies for not posting here sooner. There's a couple of places I haven't posted yet and getting the KS up and running itself and answering Qs there, via message and also email took priority yesterday before we went home for the day.
Of course people have their concerns, and of course some people won't back the project because of those concerns. That's entirely your choice and I respect your opinion.
Some people will (and have) backed the project and we will get those backers some luvverly miniatures in a timely fashion. Someone mentioned if this KS is a bit of 'bridge builder'. Yes it is (as well as a funding project of course). We're aware of the need to improve our reputation and now all of the MG orders for Mierce product that was never shipped by MG has now been shipped by us (2nd batch was dispatched last week/this week) we can keep a solid eye on the KS. Our timetables are realistic - The only point of possible delay is if a sculptor falls behind his work schedule (which does happen, though we have added a bit of wiggle room). Ideally there's a good chance that we can ship of the pledges early though that depends on what they decide on at the end of the KS and what, if any stretch goals they go for or are unveiled along the way.
I've posted the following on KS which I'll post here. At the end of the day there are some people that we will never be in a position to win over and i accept that. Of course nobody has to back the project if their concerns are too much for them.
Here's the KS message
Hi Guys,
OK first of all a big THANK YOU to everyone that has pledged so far. This is the first time we've used Kickstarter and it's weird & nervy experience to put your plans to the world and ask people to join you in your plans to make a game. So again THANKS!
OK., the Maelstrom issue. Of course we knew this would come up and of course we understand that people may be concerned after MG went under in such a fashion.
I'm not going to go through every minute detail of our business as, after all that is our business. How we get funds to purchase the mini range either via private investor or business loans etc is entirely our concern (we're asking people to fund our new plans, not our business start up) . Many companies have started up a new business and have a wealth of releases ready from the get go without trading previously. Yes, we had investment, and we payed a fair price for the miniature range from MG as determined by an independent valuer who came in and went through all of the minis and equipment and the sales etc. Yes, we're owned by the same guy that used to own MG. The same guy owns multiple businesses.
The most important thing for backers is.....Will you get your stuff! Of course! We are 100% in control of our fulfillment here. We aren't out sourcing to China or indeed outsourcing anywhere. All of the miniatures are cast in-house. It costs more to make minis in the UK than it would to out-source to China but we want to be in control of
1) The quality. We use the highest quality resins and moulds available. The materials, techniques etc are only comparable to other high quality resin minis such as Studio McVey or Kingdom Death's ltd ed resin mini ranges (we used to use the same caster before we went in-house and learned our techniques from the same guy). We aren't going down the route of PVC plastics used in boardgames. They're perfectly OK, but they aren't the best available (resin is) and we aren't in a position of mass manufacture so can afford to keep in-house. Also, some of our larger and more complicated models aren't suitable for the process in any case.
2) Timescales. We make them ourselves. We can see what's happening as we make them in the same building as I'm typing this reply right now. We aren't reliant on a 3rd party who may or may not let us down. We have some of the most skilled hands in the industry in our production team and we're very proud of that. They will not let you down!
3) Shipping. Our minis come out of the moulds (or to our US backers 'molds') and into our hands, we won't have to wait for them to arrive in a shipping container. We are in control of our shipping forecast predictions as long as the sculpts arrive on time (and many are in-hand right now!) - we can turn around sculpt arrival, to moulding to casting very quickly.
4) IP - We want to keep our masters and moulds in our hands!
5) Pricing. Our pricing is realistic. Again, as we are going down the quality over quantity route our pricing needs to be realistic. There will be freebies along the way, but we're keeping a responsible head on the pricing so the pledges can be fulfilled. This is not the cheapest £/S per mini KS you will ever see. Nor do we want to be. We want to give you a very high quality product, in a realistic timetable for a realistic price. Every backer will be getting a deal that is a great saving on the RRP price via our own site. Also, we want to be realistic as far as our retail customers go. We want to fund the starter sets so people have the game in hand, start to play the game and go to their FLGS to play games and buy more minis. We are NOT looking to cut out the middle-man here. We work closely with our retailers and distributors and again a realistic approach helps here, if we wanted to pull off a big scam we'd go for a silly discount/deal with oodles of free stuff. We aren't, and we won't.
I hope the above re-assures people about our intentions and also our capabilities. If you like I could arrange for a video/photos of our production area? We're no might behemoth of production but we do have a very capable production facility and a great team! We've learned a lot about what we can do.
OK, cup of joe then I'll be back to answer more Qs! Apologies about the delay but I couldn't log in last night!
Thanks for posting all of that. The fact remains that I will not put money into Rob Lanes pocket, so I won't be backing or supporting anything that is related to him.
Mierce Miniatures wrote: 5) Pricing. Our pricing is realistic. Again, as we are going down the quality over quantity route our pricing needs to be realistic. There will be freebies along the way, but we're keeping a responsible head on the pricing so the pledges can be fulfilled. This is not the cheapest £/S per mini KS you will ever see. Nor do we want to be. We want to give you a very high quality product, in a realistic timetable for a realistic price. Every backer will be getting a deal that is a great saving on the RRP price via our own site. Also, we want to be realistic as far as our retail customers go. We want to fund the starter sets so people have the game in hand, start to play the game and go to their FLGS to play games and buy more minis. We are NOT looking to cut out the middle-man here. We work closely with our retailers and distributors and again a realistic approach helps here, if we wanted to pull off a big scam we'd go for a silly discount/deal with oodles of free stuff. We aren't, and we won't.
The price of rank-and-file remains a deal breaker, before considering anything else. Even Forgeworld only charges £38 for ten Elysians, and you're looking at an RRP of £90 for the same quantity.
Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.
And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.
You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.
Get it?
@ Alex
THere are no rank n file models ... this is a skirmish game, not a game based on regiments. Yes, the price for the infantry is pretty high, but these are resin casts that can and should be compared to similar products.
So nice of mierce miniatures to pop in again whenever they want our money but pretty much never answer any of the questions regarding their legitimacy
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RoninXiC wrote: Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.
And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.
You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.
Get it?
@ Alex
THere are no rank n file models ... this is a skirmish game, not a game based on regiments. Yes, the price for the infantry is pretty high, but these are resin casts that can and should be compared to similar products.
I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here
RoninXiC wrote: You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.
Get it?
I'm not claming that Mierce is doing anything wrong. I'm stating that the managing director will not see any of my money due to his past business dealings.
Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.
Good to know, so it would have been easy to answer this in their last post.
And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.
I actually do, I am working in this business for more than a decade and am well-iformed. So I do not assume I do know. I have seen enough phoenixes (anyone remember ... Heartbreaker>Target Games>I-Kore?) to know one when I see one. This one might work out for good as Urban Mammoth did, but they answered the crucial questions when asked cause they knew only that way they could regain trust, oh, and they got rid of those guys that burned them time and again.
You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.
Nope, have not been screwed, since I more than 1-2 years ago realized that something was wrong and from then on stopped to order from them and warned others, and it turned out i was justified.
Sining wrote: I see they lowballed this so they're pretty much guaranteed to get the 5k in funding. Whether any of the backers will receive their stuff remains to be seen -_-
They will make it and several stretch goals. If the Avatars of War indiegogo was an indicator, people will throw money at a project even when people are telling them directly to not trust the company. Did AoW finally deliver all their stuff? Think the "official" delivery date has come and gone.
Hold it right there!
AoW might be slow and lacking good communication, but they are NOT scamming anyone. NExt week they will have released 3 Dwarf units with 3 heroes. Not as much as they and we hoped, but it's a start.
Yeah, Felix is as slow as crap and has poor communication and customer service, and his IGG campaign didn't offer a compelling reason to pledge months out, but he'll come through eventually. Felix/AoW is simply a "wait for retail" option. Miercestrom is an entirely different situation.
This exact thing happend with me. I did not receive the rest of the order from Malestrom.
Listen, the Maelstrom 'incident' sucked. But I knew going in that I may not receive my wares. When I made the order, I took a calculated risk. Was getting the Bane Legions bear dude for like, $10 bucks worth losing that $10 bucks. For me, it was.
There was a gamble involved. I decided I was willing gamble with up to $50 for what amounted to over $300 of merch. I ended up getting a partial order which, while wasn't my full $50, was still worth nearly $200 retail. For about $30 bucks.
If they didn't fulfill some of the Bane Legions stuff, then email them. According to their PR/spin/damage control, they were filling all of Maelstrom's unfulfilled orders for their own product. Worth giving it a shot, especially since they're in "we're really not the same company" PR/Damage control mode still - especially with the Kickstarter on. I've got a feeling that they will be able to verify your partial order as I have a feeling that they also have access to all of Maelstrom's customer order information as well, given recent events...
People still haven't gotten much. Saying you will deliver something in July 2012 and people still don't have it come January 2013 is still a scam. It just doesn't border criminal levels of scamming like Maelstrom has.
I think you may have your wires crossed. The campaign (barely) funded on 26th June. I don't have any idea where you think they said they'd be delivering in July.
Now please don't make me need to defend AoW any more. I feel dirty enough as it is...
Sining wrote: I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here
I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.
Maybe skip the Maelstrom threads then? I manage to skip over the threads that don't interest me. I've pretty much said all I need to say about Lane/Maelstrom otherwise, so I'm talking about different aspects of the whole thing as you'll see. But you know, if for some reason I feel a need to repeat myself (probably as a response), then I will.
And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.
You don't get to be anyone else's moral arbiter. So maybe you should drop that line of discussion before reigniting it.
Sining wrote: I'm pretty sure if Madoff ran another business, people would be justified in warning people of his history. Same thing applies here
I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.
Whenever I come to this page I hope to see a new update on their miniatures. It's great they have Kickstarter going, and that they've already surpassed their goal. It's exasperating that the same circle discussions keep going on, and I swear a Mod poster earlier in the thread to move these claims to the discussion board. If I am mistaken though, and they haven't, this discussion really should. Does it have much place in the News and Rumors thread? You say you want to warn others away from Mierce? Okay, warning done. If you still want to discuss the perceived inadequacy of Mierce...please, can you just take it somewhere else?
Maybe skip the Maelstrom threads then? I manage to skip over the threads that don't interest me. I've pretty much said all I need to say about Lane/Maelstrom otherwise, so I'm talking about different aspects of the whole thing as you'll see. But you know, if for some reason I feel a need to repeat myself (probably as a response), then I will.
This thread is titled "new rleases/pre-orders" and NOT discussion about MM honesty and stuff.
So a single post discussing the honesty is enough.
A question for Mierce Miniatures, without wanting to get into a verbal fight about the rights and wrong of things.
Given that Rob Lane is apparently struggleing to pay his mortgage (as you posted yourselves a few pages back) and given the large number of people in the wargaming hobby who want nothing more to do with him whatever business he is trading under (and it wasn't that large a segment of society to begin with) - do you not think it would be a good idea from a business perspective to buy him out of the company? This would give him the money to pay his mortgage and would ease a lot of peoples minds about the fact that you are a "new company" and not just a change in company name.
(/sarcasm) you could even make it a stretch goal. "If we get an extra £50k we won't give anything free - but will buy Rob Lane out of the business"
Whenever I come to this page I hope to see a new update on their miniatures. It's great they have Kickstarter going, and that they've already surpassed their goal. It's exasperating that the same circle discussions keep going on, and I swear a Mod poster earlier in the thread to move these claims to the discussion board. If I am mistaken though, and they haven't, this discussion really should. Does it have much place in the News and Rumors thread? You say you want to warn others away from Mierce? Okay, warning done. If you still want to discuss the perceived inadequacy of Mierce...please, can you just take it somewhere else?
Pretty sure there are two mods joining in this same updated discussion right now. Maybe three. You should tell them off. After all, you own this board. Right?
I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.
Indeed.
People have a right to have raised concerns, such concerns are now here for people to read and make their own decisions.
let's stick to news and info about new releases and pre orders.
IF there winds up being ... complications.. I'm sure there'll be a discussion about it as/when.
Good point, and just for the record, I simply posted "I wish someone would put the link on the Kickstarter page" (not, I wish we would discuss it here again). I have now done so, so people can be informed and make their own decisions about this (as you say, and as I think we all agree). People on Dakka are obviously already informed, and there is no need to continue to discuss it here.
I have a Kickstarter-related question- it apparently does not use Amazon payments, but asks for the credit card right there in Kickstarter. Is that how it is for all UK Kickstarters?
RiTides wrote: Good point, and just for the record, I simply posted "I wish someone would put the link on the Kickstarter page" (not, I wish we would discuss it here again). I have now done so, so people can be informed and make their own decisions about this (as you say, and as I think we all agree). People on Dakka are obviously already informed, and there is no need to continue to discuss it here.
I have a Kickstarter-related question- it apparently does not use Amazon payments, but asks for the credit card right there in Kickstarter. Is that how it is for all UK Kickstarters?
.........and there goes the other shoe. With no way to protect myself other than my CC company, I guess I wont be backing.
I have a Kickstarter-related question- it apparently does not use Amazon payments, but asks for the credit card right there in Kickstarter. Is that how it is for all UK Kickstarters?
Scipio -- I only got my Banelegions/Mierce stuff from my last order.
Again, I took that calculated risk. I only spent the amount of money I was okay with losing because I knew I may. I looked at it sort of like a going out of business sale where there are no returns available and I bought an "as-is" TV. If it works, awesome that I got a TV for $50 bucks. If it doesn't...well, I knew it was a possibility.
I'm the Studio and Production manager for Mierce Miniatures and I run things here on a day to day basis. I'm also our master mould-maker and every mould we make has been made by my loving hand so it meets my (very) high QC standards. I'm rather proud to say that every miniature we make has, in some way had my direct involvement. I don't cast much anymore - I have staff for that! But I would happily put the quality of our casting up against any others in the business (I trained our casters myself). If anyone has any queries about our range or want to shoot the breeze about this post (which started off short, I promise!) feel free to e-mail me on timfisher@[pleasenospam]mierce-miniatures.com (you will need to remove the brackets and the no spam bit 
) I'm not able to browse forums all day, every day but I do get a sharp bleep from my Blackberry when I get mail so that's the best contact!
(and getting the warstore or whatever it was to ship it right back to europe for me gets a bit rich, given that the minis are already approaching 
. As it is now, you are almost solely the cause of this continuing discussion, since you keep replying saying you don't want to talk about it here, while simultaneously making the same point over and over.
