KenofYork 16 Oct 2013 6:34 p.m. PST
I would like to warn people that I have had an extremely unpleasant dealing with the new management. Be very careful about these guys. I am owed a lot of money and I have been informed that the new management will not pay debts owed by Tony. I have a very strong reason to believe the management shift was a shell game to make the kick starter look better. Can't prove it, but have a very strong feeling about it.
This company has been the worst dealings I have had in my limited time as a part time, one man plastic company. I will NEVER work with them again.
They had planned for me to make the plastic mech in the kick starter with out ever even talking to me about it. I found out I was the supplier after reading the kick starter and asking who was making it. I told them I would not be making anything for a company that owed me thousands of dollars and was making no attempt to pay. After I was paid for previous product I would be willing to look at the files and see what could be done. Well, they got a pile of money from kick starter and found someone else to make the mech. And they told me weeks ago they would be returning product, but they have not. This is NOT ok with me, but I have no choice. I would not have made the items if they had not ordered them. Still they have the items in their store, I have no money, and they are setting on almost $50,000 USD in kick starter money.
I am very sorry if this seems to be a bad business move to spread bad news about another company, but I am angry beyond the capacity for rational thought.
Be very careful dealing with them.
Why am I posting this? Ken is a stand up guy that produces a quality product and delivers on what he promises. Defiance is shafting a hardworking guy and not paying for product that they received (& in a sizeable quantity). They put up the front that everything was running above board and that the Tony based problems were out of the picture yet meanwhile they're stabbing another small company in the back.
While it's a bit late for people to withdraw their KS support I would encourage people not to support defiance products until they can get their crap together and make due on their debts to Proxie.
They racked up debts with wargames factory and now proxie, seems that the standard Reidy engine is at full steam as usual.
I personally didn't back the kickstarter because I don't trust them as a company.
Sometimes there's just not much to do about it, unfortunately. I don't know the circumstances, but there are plenty in which a lawsuit is either an undesirable or unworkable course of action.
Defiance to the end , glad I stayed away from the kickstarter. I wonder if kickstarter has any recourse against defiance now. Or if people could go against kickstarter for not doing enough checking into this project? After all isn't that what kickstarter supposedly does for a week or so before a project goes live?
Wouldn't strike me as a surprise, since the whole Defiance thing has been kind of a fiasco from day 1. Really curious why the Proxie Models guy hasn't tried any legal action though.
Yeah for some crazy reason I'm not surprised at all. I had enough with them over the USMC, and learned my lesson.
The moment I saw the Female Marines goal get unlocked I knew something would happen. Heck, even the walker stretch goal was a bit of a stretch in believability. This will probably be the final nail in the coffin. If they botch this KS its game over.
Theophony wrote: Defiance to the end , glad I stayed away from the kickstarter. I wonder if kickstarter has any recourse against defiance now. Or if people could go against kickstarter for not doing enough checking into this project? After all isn't that what kickstarter supposedly does for a week or so before a project goes live?
I believe they have a policy if the creator doesn't create a product, or fails to show any progress in a timely manner they have to offer a refund.
I personally didn't back the kickstarter because I don't trust them as a company.
Sometimes there's just not much to do about it, unfortunately. I don't know the circumstances, but there are plenty in which a lawsuit is either an undesirable or unworkable course of action.
Makes sense. Especially if the suit would cost more than he is owed.
Theophony wrote: Defiance to the end , glad I stayed away from the kickstarter. I wonder if kickstarter has any recourse against defiance now. Or if people could go against kickstarter for not doing enough checking into this project? After all isn't that what kickstarter supposedly does for a week or so before a project goes live?
I believe they have a policy if the creator doesn't create a product, or fails to show any progress in a timely manner they have to offer a refund.
Kickstarter Terms of Service do say that., but Kickstarter doesn't actually enforce that in anyway.
It is up to you, as a backer to sue the creator for not delivering as Kickstarter will not do anything about those projects. So end result for cases when project fails and creator doesn't want to offer refund is that backer is out of money.
Theophony wrote: Defiance to the end , glad I stayed away from the kickstarter. I wonder if kickstarter has any recourse against defiance now. Or if people could go against kickstarter for not doing enough checking into this project? After all isn't that what kickstarter supposedly does for a week or so before a project goes live?
I believe they have a policy if the creator doesn't create a product, or fails to show any progress in a timely manner they have to offer a refund.
Kickstarter Terms of Service do say that., but Kickstarter doesn't actually enforce that in anyway.
It is up to you, as a backer to sue the creator for not delivering as Kickstarter will not do anything about those projects. So end result for cases when project fails and creator doesn't want to offer refund is that backer is out of money.
Thanks for clearing that up. I had always assumed you filed a complaint with kickstarter the go from there. I've never read the FAQ in any detail. Another reason to never pledge more than you can afford to lose.
Motograter wrote: A reason I never back kickstarters. Even with well known companies. I would get in on some but its just too unreliable. This lot are one of the worst
I think that is unfair to KS. Most of them* come through with good products. People like this guy are the minority.
Thanks for posting this topic, Paulson,
It definitely deserves a wider audience. I feel strongly enough about this to repost here what I wrote in the Defiance games KS thread where this was also announced.
Eilif wrote:Well, it looks like DG is not only terrible at customer service, product delivery and quality control, now they're patently dishonest as well. They will be getting none of my money until they make things right with Ken.
Ken is a good guy that I have dealt with many times ordering bases and terrain from his shop "Proxie Models". His Customer service is great and I've always been treated well. For DG to screw over a one-man shop that likely doesn't have the resources to fight legally is wrong on so many levels.
I've been following the battle egg product for years since it was a L&U concept idea on the website (and later forums) of Tony-eraWargames Factory. It really is the ideal armored suit for my Venturan infantry and fits well with the aesthetic of the other mechs I've made for them. Despite my refusal to buy sight unseen from a company with a poor quality history, I was more than willing to wait and see and buy it from a FLGS if it turns out well. After seeing their treatment of Ken, I think I can live without egg suits.
In the meantime, here's my plugs for Ken, a good guy making great affordable products right here in the USA.
Eilif wrote:... the fact that the KS hit 50k, shows just how willing folks are to overlook a bad track record, or not research the company they are supporting.
DG is a company that released three subpar products in a row with three missed deadlines. Yet all it took was a new and unproven management team and the fact that they were rebadging Cargo containers (designed and produced by Proxie) and folks were willing to open their wallets for a moderate discount.
It completely baffles me too.. with the history they have I'm amazed a kickstarter was even funded, never mind multiplying its original goal.
Needless to say, if anyone still hasn't got their product 3 years from now, they've only got themselves to blame, the history of this company has been easy to find and massively commented on for the entire last 2 years.
Even worse than AoW since at least with them you'll know that Felix will get around to delivering it at some point in 2017-2018. With Defiance there's bigger odds that the company will be "bankrupt" and then "reappear" with a new name for the next round of mugs to rip off.
Well here comes the back peddling and denial phase:
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
Having been in contact with Ken as hearing details first hand he is indeed owed money for product. This same type of spin was thrown out a couple years ago when Tony Reidy/Defiance was in the same situation of being in massive in debt to the company that was producing their materials (wargames factory). They can try and twist things around but it doesn't change the fact that they have an outstanding debt with Proxie. It looks to be business as usual for DG, distort the situation, blame others and deny, deny, deny.
Reminds me of this classy guy "Hey you can trust me.. after all didn't I just say how honest I am? Past shady deals? Whatcha you kidding me? That was my twin brother Larry! Fuhgeddaboudit and we can make you a great deal today"
Its really unsettling to see this thread side by side with the Daniel Mandlebaum warning thread.
Obviously with Defiance its nowhere near the shenanigans Mandlebaum has pulled, but its still an ugly situation. I am not looking forward to see how this plays out, because I have a bad feeling there's going to be a lot of angry KS backers soon...
For sake of completeness and illustrate past behavior here's the letter from Wargames Factory.
They have a simular falling out with Ed from Troll Forged minis, lots of undelivered promises, piling up of debts and complete inability to work with their partner.
3 out of 3 tries have been a massive failure, and caused the other partnering companies to cut their loses and walk away. That speaks volumes.
Hopefully they'll get their gak together and pay Ken for the product he delivered on.
Public Statement from Wai Kee Hui regarding Wargames Factory
It has been a little more than 2 months since Tony Reidy posted his “Open Letter to Wai Kee Hui” on The Miniatures Page website. I was aware of this “letter” at the time of posting and although I was annoyed at his unprofessional tone and angered at what amounted to many outright lies, I decided that my best course of action was to stay out of online politics and instead focus on trying to get the company I had recently become majority shareholder of into functional order.
The past 2 months have been extremely busy with trying to figure out what orders had been placed and paid for before I took over, inventorying product that was still in stock at Triangle and setting up a new order platform and shipping facility. These goals have now been accomplished, with all outstanding orders shipped and our web store reopened.
Throughout this process I was cognizant of the defamation of character my associates and I were receiving in Cyberspace at the hands of Tony Reidy and Howard Whitehouse. Even though at many times the temptation was strong for me to jump in and tell my side of the story, I refrained from doing so while we were struggling to put Wargames Factory back on track. Now that we are on the road to recovery, and in lieu of increasingly slanderous postings being made by Tony and Howard, I feel the time has come for me to set the record straight.
I became majority shareholder of Wargames Factory along with all its’ intellectual properties on October 13th, 2010. This acquisition occurred because over the course of the previous 2 years Tony Reidy had run up a bill of more than $250,000 with my manufacturing company in China and had failed to make a single payment on his bill during this time. Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not an immensely wealthy man and this is a huge sum of money to me. When it became evident that Tony was unable and unwilling to pay his debt to me, I had to consider my options. Option 1 was that I cease making product for Tony and call in the debt I was owed, which would effectively put Wargames Factory out of business. Option 2 was that I assume 51% ownership of Wargames Factory in return for the $250,000 I was owed . The intention behind option 2 was that I would gain controlling interest and help manage the company into some sort of financial health, where I might be able to recoup the monies owed me as well as make money for the rest of the shareholders. When both options were presented to Tony Reidy he chose option 2 and signed the paperwork transferring majority ownership to me on October 13th, 2010.
What occurred next is that Tony Reidy felt he should still be able to continue to manage Wargames Factory as he saw fit, with my only input being to proceed to produce product as before. This was not a scenario I was comfortable with, for obvious reasons. As a point of fact, before I signed the paperwork transferring the 51%, we had a forensic accountant look at the company’s financial health and it was discovered that the company had been running in the red for its’ entire existence under the management of Tony. While Tony is passionate about wargaming and the wargaming community, it was clear that he was completely unsuited to running this business. It was evident that for Wargames Factory to have any chance of financial success it would need to have a new business model.
The months following my acquisition of majority stock were rocky and tumultuous as I attempted to form some sort of working relationship with Tony Reidy. Many months were spent trying to get Tony to release access to the web store, company records and company bank accounts so that I could start to get a picture of what we were dealing with. In addition to the constant struggle to simply gain information regarding the company I now owned 51% of, more and more vendors and individuals started coming out of the woodwork claiming that Tony Reidy/Wargames Factory owed them money and they had never been paid.
I need to make something very clear. The agreement that Tony and I signed has a clause that states that he had fully apprised me of all debts the company owed before I became majority stockholder, and that any debts not disclosed were the responsibility of Tony, not Wargames Factory. I will not go into the long list of debts to both vendors and individuals undisclosed by Tony that have come to light over the past five months, but I am going to tell you about one specific debt.
When I took over the company I decided that we would need to move our operations and shipping out of the Boston area. This decision was based on the fact that my associates are based in the western United States and it made the most sense for our new business model to relocate there. When we told Triangle that we would regrettably be moving our shipping operations elsewhere, they informed us that before we could remove the Wargames Factory merchandise from their facility I would need to pay them the $5,000 that was owed to them for back salaries for their disabled shipping employees. This came as a big surprise to me, especially when I asked for a copy of their bill and discovered that Tony Reidy had not made a payment to the employees of Triangle for almost 2 years. In light of Tony and Howard’s recent posts claiming I cheated Triangle out of their money, I find myself most dishonored by this blatant lie.
There is not enough time for me to address all of the accusations and falsehoods about the new Wargames Factory team that have spun out of control over the internet for the past months, but I feel that I needed to shed a little light on what has actually transpired behind the scenes. For everyone’s information, between the $250,000 I was initially owed by Wargames Factory and the amount of money I have put into the company over the past 5 months to keep it afloat and get it back on its’ feet, it will be a long time before I possibly see any return on my investments. I am not a villainous, foreign millionaire doing a shady hostile takeover of a poor American company to make a fast buck. I am simply a business man who is making the best I can out of the difficult situation that is in front of me.
With that out of the way I want to let you know that while I am new to the wargaming world I am dedicated to providing the highest quality and most innovative product in the market and to listening to how you, our valued customers, would like to see Wargames Factory evolve. I thank you all for your patience during what was a very rocky transition and look forward to smoother sailing ahead.
Sincerely, Wai Kee Hui
For completeness, here's Tony's original letter:-
Wai Kee Hui - if your true intention is to salvage this company and pay back the debts - you have started down the absolutely wrong path.
I understand that this is so far beneath you because you run so many multi-yuan millions businesses - but if you want to salvage anything, you are proceeding in the absolutely worst direction right now.
Your faith in Lonnie Mullins is incredibly misguided. You're trusting a guy who threw me under the bus in order to save his own skin. A guy who has no honor whatsoever.
I gave Lonnie a job because he got laid off from selling paper utensils at Solo Cup. I felt I owed him after all the time he spent supporting the company. It was a huge mistake - and if I had listened to my "gut" I wouldn't have. He was brought in as a "sales" man - but he's not. He's an order taker. He sends out emails and hopes people buy something. If you think he's going to grow the business, you're smoking something.
On top of that - the PR nightmare Lonnie is creating right now is shocking. Lonnie has no filter. He can't speak decently to a customer without either pointing out a mistake the customer is making or trying to promote his own self-worth.
He is the king of turning people off because he's so full of himself - albeit with little "there" to back it up. I'm amazed that a guy I saved from unemployment would turn around and Bleeped text me this way. He's a scum bag.
As a now 4% owner in WF (down from 41%) - and nothing else at this point - I will tell you right now that Lonnie is not the resource you need to salvage things.
If you had actually shipped all the product we requested on the dates you said, this company could be salvaged. But until that happens, it will die a slow death.
If you want to make this work - get back on the track we started in August when I signed the deal to give you control.
Otherwise, I'm done with Wargames Factory. I signed an agreement to buy back the company in early January. I stand by that. But if you are going to continue to go down this path - "green" packaging - which basically means you are sticking a "sticker" on the face of a generic box - or sets that don't have the components I designed - then fine. I leave you to it. It is not the vision for WF that I or the rest of the team had. Howard Whitehouse, John Morse, and Tim Barry are incredible assets for the company and people who work their tales off to make things happen. They were the core team who I knew could take WF to the next level when we signed the deal with you. But it didn't happen on your end.
I've had zero control over this company since July/August... and now you are reaping the negative rewards. I can save it - I want to save it. The rest of the team is ready to get back in and make it happen.
Instead, you've shut us out of decision making - you've cut us off from the funds and given us zero ability to service the customer since October.
The wargames community completely supports a company like ours. But they will not support a company that doesn't respond to their emails and causes ongoing delays.
I welcome the opportunity to salvage Wargames Factory and buy back the controlling ownership. But I fear you have decided to go in a different direction that will result in the company failing and ultimately collapsing.
Please prove me wrong. The wargames community deserves a company like what I envisioned. A company that builds the sets they request. Let me make that a reality again.
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
Huh?
Facebook isn't the place but a forum and a podcast are?
Wargames Factory is doing Amazing now under Wai Kee Hui! They're making Dreamforge, Secret Weapon Tablescapes, Malifaux, and many other companies' stuff...
Check out this thread showing a lot of their operation. This link is to a video I posted later in the thread, but the OP is definitely worth a read, as it chronicles legoburner (the techno-wizard who keeps Dakka running) on his trip to visit their factory
Wargames Factory has really exploded (in a good way) since the the change of ownership. They are making the products for Dream Forge and also Wyrd's Malifaux. Their quality is pretty amazing.
Kicking Tony Reidy out is the best thing that ever happened for the company and for gamers in general as they are providing a reliable cost effective way to get quality models done in plastic. Which never could have occured if they were still being dragged down by Reidy. Meanwhile under Reidy's control Defiance is still floundering around with productions issues and making poorly done products and can't launch a single product without major issues croppingup. He clearly places blame for all his failures on the Chinese partners, who seem to be working just just fine with everyone else.
They seem to be doing pretty well as far as I am aware. They have created several new ranges since the take over including the Rising Sun Samurai figures and I think they have some kind of deal with DreamForge games too.
I can't help but feel awful for the talented people that Tony and Defiance are dragging down with them.
Sure, those egg troopers and mechs may look great, but they probably didn't even pay the concept artist who designed them or the sculptors who put them together. Can't put money towards something when you know that the people behind it won't get paid.
We were all calling this from day one, and yet they somehow still shattered their KS goal. Shame that these people won't learn until it's far too late.
I really had my doubts about Wargames Factory when they made the ownership switch. It was an ugly event full of recriminations on all sides. Their self-produced stuff still has some shortcomings in my view, but it is better than it was, and the new female zombie survivors are proof of that.
However, I chalk those shortcomings more up to their designers, not their QC or production capabilities. The products they are making for other companies are amazing. Looking at how the DreamForge soldiers and Leviathans have come out, it's clear that they have the manufacturing skills to put out a product as good as anyone in the industry, even Perry (I think they're using Renedra, yes?) and GW.
Here's you sack of horse manure straight from Defiance FB:
Defiance Games Dewey and other concerned parties. As a business man its unethical to talk about private business dealings in public but since Ken opened the door in public on various forums I'll comment now. During the reorganization of Defiance Games we (The current staff) were given what signed legal contracts and royalty agreements that currently exist. We were told that we had all existing agreements by previous management. I have no reason to doubt that's not the case.
I asked Ken at Proxie models to produce a written contract and if he did it would be honored. Since he didn't have one I decided as CEO to return the remaining unsold barriers and pay Ken what money he was owed for the few barriers we did sell/use. That's it in a nut shell. If Ken has a legal signed document then We will honor it. Since we don't I'm choosing to back out of the deal which is our right. I hope this clears things up. -Gary
The barriers are packed up and sitting by the door. We have not yet had the time to return them. They will be returned and he will get paid for the few barriers we sold/used. We have a lot going on right now.
And for the record, since Ken didn't include an invoice or shipping manifest in the shipment we've been trying to ascertain how many barriers he sent us and how many barriers we've sold/used so that we can accurately pay him what's owed him. That has also taken time. -Gary
As some keen users have pointed out, DG has been sitting on the barriers for weeks and are suddenly only in a rush to return then due to this being brought to light. Despite claiming they have been boxed up for a period of time and weren't being sold, yet the barrers are actively listed for sale on the website.
They claim to have no way of knowing how many of what is sold is hog wash, the company should have their own records to calculate how many sets they've sold of either shipping containers or barriers. A web business claiming they can't make sense of their own internal inventory is a complete smoke screen as you have inventory tracked on both your website and on your payment histories.
Gary did not take over the company blindly, according to their own info release he's been running the business end of the company for some time. Yet suddenly he's "unaware" of the company commiting to buy those items? Do plastic sprues just magically rain down on miniatures businesses in Boston? This excuse of "I dunno what you're talking about" served with a shoulder shrug is comeplete BS.
He makes it sound like he was clueless twit hired off the street this morning, when infact he's been the business manager since this whole pile began. Is he somehow unable to contact Reidy? The guy still works with DG but supposedly just not in a management posistion. Could it be yet another lie like so many others the company has been spewing?
Gary apparently forgot what he said in his previous quote:
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
I completely agree with KK- "weasel words". Not to mention, they said they'd send the items back since they weren't going to pay for them... yet haven't bothered to do so yet.
I wouldn't touch this company with a 10 foot barge pole.
The order from Defiance was submitted through email.
Gary is claiming he won't honor the email agreement, because "they are not contracts". Should legal action be undertaken I think he's in for a very rude awakening as most courts will validate that email transactions do constitute a formal agreement between parties. While he was acting as defacto business manager prior to taking over the company he seemed to have no problems recieving (and selling) materials from Proxie, but when the bill comes due suddenly the agreement is deemed invalid.
It's shows that this situation is not due to simple miscommunication or a lack of record keeping. He is intentionally trying to dodge his companies debt and profit on materials that are stolen from Proxie models.
paulson games wrote: Proxie models had a vendors agreement with Defiance to produce their industrial containers and street baricades.
Proxie sold them on credit and sent them to Defiance as promised. Defiance then proceeded to sell their stock of shipping containers and then when their bill came due they did not pay for the product.
Defiance had recieved the barriers in a later shipment and claims that they will be returning them. Which was said several weeks ago, Even if the barriers are returned they still owe proxie models money for the earlier stock of shipping container models. (A debt of which they are now declining that they owe).
The shipping ccontainer models cannot be returned because Defiance already sold them.
This is not 100% accurate. The shipping containers are produced by Proxie Models for Rust Forge, Llc. Defiance ordered the containers thru Rust Forge and Proxie Models shipped them straight to Defiance Games.
The rest about the money not showing up yet and the Proxie Model barriers is 100% accurate though.
Shepherd23 wrote: The shipping containers are produced by Proxie Models for Rust Forge, Llc. Defiance ordered the containers thru Rust Forge and Proxie Models shipped them straight to Defiance Games.
The rest about the money not showing up yet and the Proxie Model barriers is 100% accurate though.
Thanks for the clarification. I'll wait until Ken reports receiving his barriers and any $ owed before I give any weight at all to DG's words.
What is so hard about digging down deep and adding two parts of give a darn and just up and doing what you said you were going to do?
The Miniatures game industry can't be this... convoluted.
Between the gak figures, and the business model, it IS outright fraud at this point, no matter how they want to spin it. They outright did it knowingly and are now in the mode of "we didn't know..."
Problem here being that the figures weren't brain trust level operations, and just run of the mill regular figures. It wouldn't take much to pull it out and put this right, except that these people are more interested in diversion and doublespeak then they are just doing what they said.
Defiance, knock off the gak and either or get off the pot and get out of the industry. there are too many companies out there that you are infecting with your disease of scummy business practices.
Ok, here is a long response that I will post on the 2 other forums where this has bled over in to as well.
1. It seems ironic for Defiance to accuse Proxie of unethical business behavior. I wrestled with this for a long time because I knew it would reflect poorly on me to be seen attacking another company. I also considered it more unethical to remain silent and have others lose out. I made a decision and it seems to have stirred things up a bit.
2. Gary and me pretty much hate each other. If you read my blog you might have noticed a tendency to be a bit blunt. Gary seems to pride himself on his honesty and I sent him numerous e-mails accusing him of being a liar and a cheat. I was counting on this money to pay a major expense and it hurt my family to not be paid. I was angry and he took the brunt of it. The last message I sent him I asked for Tony to come back. Since Tony is blamed for everything from global warming to bad pop songs I think this really pissed him off. Tony is not as bad as he is made out, he was not operating in a vacuum at Defiance, and it is simply outrageous for him to be the sole focus of every problem.
3. All of my business is conducted by emails. Some one sends me an e-mail for an order, I make the stuff and e-mail them an invoice, they pay electronically, and we are all happy. I have never had a signed legal contract with any of my suppliers, or with any of my customers. The standard Defiance is trying to apply is absurd and I wonder how many other people in the industry really get a lawyer and have a legal document drawn up to place a simple order. I sent Gary the e-mails, but by this time we were pretty much done with each other. I called him my sworn foe, a term I have not used since that particularly troublesome NPC in a role play campaign about 25 years ago.
4. I am not getting paid, not now or never. I burnt that bridge, then blew it up with dynamite, then mined the water to prevent fording. Gary is ready to fight it out in court. I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.
5. At this point I am ready to call it a day and have a drink or 5. Whatever. Life is too short for all this crap. Anger is not usually a part of my life and I need to get it out of me. So consider the matter closed and I will go about my business and they can go about theirs. People can decide who they want to deal with and who they do not want to deal with. I may look like an ass for exposing this, or Defiance may look like an ass for the way they acted. If I can save one person the frustration I have felt it will have been worth it.
Anyhow, I am finished with this and let's all get back to regular scheduled programing.
It sounds like he will learn just how badly misinformed he is about email agreements... They count. It's in writing, and is submissible and quite binding in my experience.
Verbal contracts count. It is easier to enforce a written contract because the evidence is clear, however for many people "my word is my bond".
Fraud is a hash term and implies that Defiance Games was set up with the intention of taking money or products and not providing the reciprocal (i.e. not to ship the paid for products or to pay for the accepted stock). I don’t believe that is the case.
I think what actually happened is that bad management has led to a situation in which the company is unable to fulfill its obligations, however, rather than admit that and try to resolve the situation, the management are denying it exists.
The stuff about not paying for the accepted stock without a written contract is bollocks. The management of the Defiance company know damn well if they made a verbal contract for the stock. Why would the supplier have sent it without expectation of being paid? Why did the company accept it without a contract?
As it stands Defiance is holding $46,492 from the kickstarter. They owe money to at least one company. As we have seen from all thie rprevious work that the models are bad quality and late. Or that they screw the company they are running up.
I cant imagine that anyone will see the hard suits, or get their money back from the KS. If they do get the hardsuits they will be badly misformed and VERY late.
To be fair, Defiance Games was dubious from the start, after the founder left Wargames Factory with a mud fight.
Dealing with dubious companies of bad reputation is always risky, esp. if you rely on getting the money and honesty.
So this outcome is exactly what everyone in the know (or anyone reading any Defiance Games thread on Dakka ) would have expected. It's like paying Mandelbaum in advance for 3 Titans.
Always sad to see decent people ripped off, of course, but it happens when you trust the wrong people.
Gentlemen, thank you for you posts and insight into this situation. I don't "have a dog in this fight" because the company's previous business practices coupled with the sudden "You don't like Tony? Well, we have new management." strategy that saw the beginning of the kick starter threw up all kinds of red flags in my mind and I didn't jump in.
I hope that the warnings of two established well-respected members of the community, whose word is actually good for something, will prevent others from being burned.
Hello, I'm in a bit of an odd situation here. I was going to prepare a statement regarding Ken from Proxie models and his posts regarding our business transactions on various forums and release that statement next week along with our newest pod cast. Then, there were several messages asking me to comment now. So I did, and all my comments were twisted and spun as I'm sure this message will be as well. I'm damned if I speak up, I'm damned if I'm silent. It's a no win situation for me no matter what I do. But, I feel that I owe it to the customers who have stuck by us to explain what I can as best I can. So I'll do that.
Some think that this is some ploy from Tony Reidy and that you're all being tricked by him. It's not. Tony is out as far as running things.
We are currently in the midst of a company wide reorganization. Tony Reidy has nothing to do with any financial aspects of the company. That's all I can say until things are finalized. Once they are there will be a formal announcement.
I've been reading all the posts left here and elsewhere regarding Proxie-gate as we have come to call it here.
I'm going to say this final word regarding it and will be addressing it in next weeks pod cast then I'm dropping this subject and moving foreword. I'm looking ahead and not back. Take that how you want to.
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
Our intention is to fulfill the Kickstarter and move on from all this. We have a lot to do and we will show everyone that we are not the Old Defiance Games. It's possible that the shadows of the old company will haunt us forever. I hope that's not the case and I'll do everything I can to get past that. I understand we have a lot to prove and I know it's not going to be easy.
I also want to thank everyone for all the support I've gotten from friends, family and customers. I sincerely appreciate it. -Gary
If I ever see anything besides words, either money or product returned, I will let the gaming community know about it.
I still do not agree with the notion that kick starter money is separate and reserved for new molds and such. Money seems to be money to me, but I guess they are wanting to start all new.
I may have to go through a corporate restructure soon. My boss is a jerk and so is my employee.
Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
That just sounds like a massive cop out. I dont care how tight resources are that doesn't give you the right to sell someone elses product without compensating them for it. I am also unsure how seperate the kickstarter cash should be consider they offered this as a backer level.
Choose any ONE of our currently available box sets (Imperial Chinese Militia, Aleutian Swamp Worms, Hudson's Bug Drones, Storage Containers) OR... you get ONE box set of UAMC HARDSUITS! Free Shipping in USA and Canada. $5 Shipping Fee Worldwide.
Correct me if I am wrong but it is the storage containers they owe you for right? The ones that they offered as a kickstarter option, kickstarter money that is apparently 100% separate from this issue.
...
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter.
...
For all its length it actually says very little.
I will acknowledge that it's good that he said he was wrong (he is CLEARLY wrong in saying "I won't pay you for services rendered because legal documentation wasn't in place". Turning over a new leaf... hah!).
But, as carlos points out, this is a cop-out. They offered the storage containers as PART of their kickstarter rewards!
They need to square up their debts with manufacturers before anyone will ever take them seriously. The company "reorganization" means absolutely nothing when the company continues to act the same.
So, good on you Gary for admitting you were wrong (you WERE!). Now, pay back Proxie Models. Otherwise, it's just talk... and gamers aren't going to believe your talk anymore. Follow through on paying back Proxie models, and you have a glimmer of hope of not becoming the punching bag of every joke about bad company practices for miniature companies... otherwise, that fate is almost assured at this point, and your business will never recover.
Hello, I'm in a bit of an odd situation here. I was going to prepare a statement regarding Ken from Proxie models and his posts regarding our business transactions on various forums and release that statement next week along with our newest pod cast. Then, there were several messages asking me to comment now. So I did, and all my comments were twisted and spun as I'm sure this message will be as well. I'm damned if I speak up, I'm damned if I'm silent. It's a no win situation for me no matter what I do. But, I feel that I owe it to the customers who have stuck by us to explain what I can as best I can. So I'll do that.
Some think that this is some ploy from Tony Reidy and that you're all being tricked by him. It's not. Tony is out as far as running things.
We are currently in the midst of a company wide reorganization. Tony Reidy has nothing to do with any financial aspects of the company. That's all I can say until things are finalized. Once they are there will be a formal announcement.
I've been reading all the posts left here and elsewhere regarding Proxie-gate as we have come to call it here.
I'm going to say this final word regarding it and will be addressing it in next weeks pod cast then I'm dropping this subject and moving foreword. I'm looking ahead and not back. Take that how you want to.
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
Our intention is to fulfill the Kickstarter and move on from all this. We have a lot to do and we will show everyone that we are not the Old Defiance Games. It's possible that the shadows of the old company will haunt us forever. I hope that's not the case and I'll do everything I can to get past that. I understand we have a lot to prove and I know it's not going to be easy.
I also want to thank everyone for all the support I've gotten from friends, family and customers. I sincerely appreciate it. -Gary
For all its length it actually says very little.
It says a lot, just nothing good, other than vague suggestions that they will "do (their) best to fix things with Ken".
Well, you could...pay him? That would probably go a long way to rectifying his not being paid.
The rest is pretty awesome actually. The mentions of his words being twisted, leaving behind the 'Old Defiance Games' (and presumably _really_ leaving behind the old WGF which also didn't pay it's debts).
Tony is 'out' and your first public business decision is to try to weasel out of paying one of your contracts. Looking good.
Everything drips of being a victim and struggling to make an honest buck.
As I said in the other thread, previously Defiance were seen as vaguely incompetent. You can dispell that by producing quality product. Now you're establishing yourself as incompetent AND shady. Maybe you need another 'reorganisation'.
I have been asked to make some corrections here so that everyone fully understands the situation. As has been stated, Proxie Models is currently owed money from DG for the barricades that he manufactures. This part of the situation is completely correct.
The issue regarding the money for shipping containers is a bit more involved. Proxie manufactures the containers for Rust Forge. DG placed an order for the shipping containers that we had proxie direct ship to DG due to the size. When the money never showed from DG, it meant that we could not afford to pay Proxie, either.
This has resulted in us not being able to produce new product until we can get Proxie paid up. Since we only have a small collection of product, it is taking a lot of time to make the money to pay proxie. We used every penny we could to start this company and have been effectively held hostage until this issue is resolved. Every dollar earned is being saved to pay Proxie. Once he is payed up we will start saving for new product again.
We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.
"Money is tight" I'd believe that a bit more if they hadn't just smashed their funding goal by 9 times. If a KS is properly managed then your start up costs and break even point are what you base your initial goal on, once you've cleared that goal then funds beyond that start generating a profit. Now unless the managers are grossly incompetent generating almost 9 times your expected funding should generate a good level of actual profit.
I suspect why Rust Forge and Proxie waited so long to release any of this info was that they were likely hoping that since Defiance hit their funding goals with plenty of excess they'd do the moral thing and make good on their debts. That obviously didn't materialize and things went belly up at that point.
How does concern for your customers translate into shorting your vendors? If you've created bad blood with your only supplier of plastics how is that good for your customers? The supplier will shut off your supply and you're now unable to provide the products that you promised to your customer base. I fail to see how creating situations which result in undelivered product is in the best interest of the customer.
Once again I am reminded of why I almost never buy anhything over the internett any more. But my sympaties for those whom has been relived of hard earned cash by these cutt purses
You know, it never occurred to me about Rustforge. So DG owes both Proxie (for the barricades) AND Rustforge for the shipping containers (which funds would ultimately go to Proxie). So DG is basically screwing Proxie over twice and hurting one other small businesses in the process. Wow.
In addition, it's all due to this massive company-wide reorganization that's taking place and proceeding with monolithic slowness (for a company comprised of 3 or 4 people).
I don't care who Tony or Gary are, you just don't operate like this and expect people to think of you as, "a man of my word". Pitiful.
I truly hope that Proxie and Rustfoge get what they're owed and that the Kickstarter backers get a decent product. I'm conflicted because I also wish DG goes out of business quickly so that they are unable to hurt any other people's lives with their dirty dealings.
agnosto wrote: You know, it never occurred to me about Rustforge. So DG owes both Proxie (for the barricades) AND Rustforge for the shipping containers (which funds would ultimately go to Proxie). So DG is basically screwing Proxie over twice and hurting one other small businesses in the process. Wow.
Yeah, that's pretty insane
And 100% agreed with the points you drew from this, as well... no one is going to trust or take Defiance Games seriously when they're treating the other manufacturers / companies that they work with like this.
Why in the world would you trust them to make and ship you a product, based on a sketch or the like, when they are currently showing themselves incapable of paying another TWO companies for product that they already received? They need to resolve this, immediately, to have any chance of recovering their company's reputation imo... and even then, it'll be difficult. But without resolving it, there's no chance of it at all. This is a small community, you can't burn bridges like this and expect to continue to be able to do business.
rustforge wrote: We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.
Can you elaborate why you and Proxie put the future of your businesses completely into the hands of a company with one of the worst reputations in the business, that has proven to not fulfill its commitments for years? Their screwing of sculptor Ed from Troll Forged was featured on ever major tabletop forum. Not to speak of the things at Wargames Factory. Heck, they even had to make a kickstarter end 2013 so they could finance their June 2012 release! I can't understand how one can send a container full of merchandise to such a company without any security measures.
Proxie's future isn't in Defiance Games' hands- but it sounds like a rather large sum of money is.
I do agree that with a company such as this, one should ask for payment Upfront... I'm sure that will be the case for every business dealing with them in the future. But, most businesses operate on credit... unfortunately that is not something safe to do in this case now, clearly.
rustforge wrote: We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.
Can you elaborate why you and Proxie put the future of your businesses completely into the hands of a company with one of the worst reputations in the business, that has proven to not fulfill its commitments for years? Their screwing of sculptor Ed from Troll Forged was featured on ever major tabletop forum. Not to speak of the things at Wargames Factory. Heck, they even had to make a kickstarter end 2013 so they could finance their June 2012 release! I can't understand how one can send a container full of merchandise to such a company without any security measures.
Well, I can't speak for Proxie, but I guess the best answer to this is that we thought they had gotten their stuff together. We were wrong and we are paying for it now. It sucks, but that's about the whole of it. There is enough evidence on these forums of companies that turned around, we decided to give DG a chance.
As to tie our business to theirs. That not really what happened.
And we didnt ship them a container of product. We shipped a few boxes of containers. As for security, our muscle guy, Guido, must have been off that day. It's just business and sometimes you take a chance and get burned for it.
This is all pretty horrendous, and I really do hope that Gary has been burned into paying his debts to Proxie and Rustforge, can't speak to RF but Ken is all kinds of awesome and I've been buying from him for a few years now.
That said, I don't think the money should come from the KS funds. If they used that money to pay back previous debts and were unable to fulfil the KS it would be all kinds of messy, and completely unfair to the backers, many of whom I'm sure are completely unaware of DG's dubious history. I'm just glad I didn't back it myself, I've been waiting for those suits since they were announced.
Even though the Kickstarter includes rewards which are not paid for from Proxie / Rustforge? This pledge level was the third most popular of the campaign:
Choose any ONE of our currently available box sets (Imperial Chinese Militia, Aleutian Swamp Worms, Hudson's Bug Drones, Storage Containers) OR... you get ONE box set of UAMC HARDSUITS! Free Shipping in USA and Canada. $5 Shipping Fee Worldwide.
Even though. That's just one of the options at that backer level and with all this happening who knows if it will still be an option when the surveys go out. This is DG's screw up and they need to make it right with Ken and RF, but not at the expense of screwing even more people over.
I sent them a message basically saying I can wait on my rewards. They need to pay back Proxie and Rustforge. I'm sure if they sent out an update explaining the situation and asked for any backers willing to wait until they can make up the difference with sales to let them know, they would get quite a few. When Mantic asked us if we were willing to forgo wave 2 and receive everything in wave 3, quite a lot of us said, "sure."
It says a lot, just nothing good, other than vague suggestions that they will "do (their) best to fix things with Ken".
Well, you could...pay him? That would probably go a long way to rectifying his not being paid.
The rest is pretty awesome actually. The mentions of his words being twisted, leaving behind the 'Old Defiance Games' (and presumably _really_ leaving behind the old WGF which also didn't pay it's debts).
Tony is 'out' and your first public business decision is to try to weasel out of paying one of your contracts. Looking good.
Everything drips of being a victim and struggling to make an honest buck.
As I said in the other thread, previously Defiance were seen as vaguely incompetent. You can dispel that by producing quality product. Now you're establishing yourself as incompetent AND shady. Maybe you need another 'reorganisation'.
Its mostly empty platitudes and trying to pass the buck before admitting a small slither of fault while still trying to play the victim card. Doesn't say much directly and barely addresses the problem in hand but as you pointed out it certainly says a lot about them as a company.
rustforge wrote: We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.
Can you elaborate why you and Proxie put the future of your businesses completely into the hands of a company with one of the worst reputations in the business, that has proven to not fulfill its commitments for years? Their screwing of sculptor Ed from Troll Forged was featured on ever major tabletop forum. Not to speak of the things at Wargames Factory. Heck, they even had to make a kickstarter end 2013 so they could finance their June 2012 release! I can't understand how one can send a container full of merchandise to such a company without any security measures.
Because hope springs eternal?
I try not to get involved with other companies workings or weight in on product other than to say.."Wow Great Job!" and give encouragement. I feel for Ken at Proxie because I can understand EXACTLY the situation this puts him in, that is why I have chosen to weigh in on this subject.
I will not pretend to know all the details of the current events but I will say, I know what is like to be a small one man operation. Every sale matters, every investment is a make or break situation and if Proxie and Rust Forge are owed money they NEED to be paid! Playing with others livelihood is unacceptable and if the situation is what it appears to be and Defiance is changing ownership to get out of paying its debts, If this is true, I find the behavior reprehensible.
I supported their KS because I try to see the best in everyone and I had hoped that they were turning over a new leaf, I wanted to encourage this. I did not back for more than I was willing to loose but I truly hoped that they could shed some of the issues of the past and move forward. Have they? I hope so but I have no reason to doubt what Ken is saying... it certainly puts a stain on the new coat of paint....
And 100% agreed with the points you drew from this, as well... no one is going to trust or take Defiance Games seriously when they're treating the other manufacturers / companies that they work with like this.
Unfortunately, this company is run by scam artists and con men, so even if Defiance goes belly up, the guys in charge will soon be back stealing more money from people who dont know the deal.
Well, as Nose Goblin (Mark from Dreamforge) says, they have a chance to turn over a new leaf- but that chance is completely ruined if they don't pay what they owe Proxie Models and Rustforge! So, there is incentive and benefit to them if they resolve this... hopefully they see reason.
I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine(then again, I'm one of the few who feel little qualm about buying recasts from China)
PresidentOfAsia wrote: I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine(then again, I'm one of the few who feel little qualm about buying recasts from China)
Ehh... what makes you think the KS will turn out better then there other projects.
That's a fair point, actually . With one, you may get a subpar product... with another, no product at all.
I am not saying "scammer" applies to Defiance Games, however in order for it not to be applicable in the future they certainly need to set this right ASAP...
To be fair to DG, they have delivered their products, just very late, and, IMO, with subpar results for the last 3 spincast miniatures products.
I wouldn't call them scammers of the public yet, but you can make your own mind up regarding their treatment of their suppliers. I'm going to lay back for a while and wait to hear from Rustforge and Proxie to see if product is returned and/or funds are paid. Proxie has said he'd keep us in the loop as far as this goes.
Seriously, I know some of you think that the KS money should only be spent on the KS, and it is a fair point, in a sense. Two things come to mind, though. 1)they wildly exceeded expected levels of funding (even I never thought it would go that high) so 2)wouldn't it be the honourable thing to, if not pay everything so they don't jeopardize the KS delivery dates, at least make a partial payment and agree to a payment plan, in a gentlemanly way?
PresidentOfAsia wrote: I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine(then again, I'm one of the few who feel little qualm about buying recasts from China)
And that attitude is why we have recasters and dubious business practices.
All I can say is that the KS thread had warnings posted very early on from people in the community. Those of you who pledged did so after ignoring them. I was initially going to make a comment about caveat emptor but since fraud is an exception to that, I think instead I'll stick with the old saying about fools and their money.
Breotan wrote: All I can say is that the KS thread had warnings posted very early on from people in the community. Those of you who pledged did so after ignoring them. I was initially going to make a comment about caveat emptor but since fraud is an exception to that, I think instead I'll stick with the old saying about fools and their money.
What an incredibly insensitive thing to say. I mean, this is this guy's livelihood, and you see fit to come and point and laugh? Wow. Well, I guess it's not Dakka without Blame The Victim.
I hope Ken gets made whole. Maybe some community pressure will help.
Breotan wrote: All I can say is that the KS thread had warnings posted very early on from people in the community. Those of you who pledged did so after ignoring them. I was initially going to make a comment about caveat emptor but since fraud is an exception to that, I think instead I'll stick with the old saying about fools and their money.
What an incredibly insensitive thing to say. I mean, this is this guy's livelihood, and you see fit to come and point and laugh? Wow. Well, I guess it's not Dakka without Blame The Victim.
I hope Ken gets made whole. Maybe some community pressure will help.
Excuse me, but are we reading the same comment? He was referring to the people who pledged to the kickstarter despite the warnings, and I don't see any laughing anywhere.
Also, what he is saying is true, how unfortunate as it may be. It would be similar to still ordering stuff from Maelstrom after it became clear the poo had hit the fan.
Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Eilif wrote: To be fair to DG, they have delivered their products, just very late, and, IMO, with subpar results for the last 3 spincast miniatures products.
They delivered all the little jeep/MATV things folks ordered?
Well that's an odd turn of events, especially given what was posted before. I wouldn't be accepting excuses so easily. They took over the business, they shouldn't shirk responsibility in the dubious way they tried to. I wonder what they told him exactly to make him do a complete u-turn?
You're a stand-up guy Ken. It's not many people who'd do what you've done. I'm heading right over to your website to see what you've got that interests me
I just bought a giant box of the 28mm sci fi buildings and barricades and I couldn't be more happier (I plan on building a Judge Dredd Mega City Block and placed an initial test order)
it is cheap, dual sided (infinity/star trek smooth on one side, mercs/industrial on the other) and is completely modular so you can build larger or multistory buildings.
Maybe head over to Rust Forge and buy a shipping container or two as well? I know that mike and I would appreciate it AND every sale of a shipping container helps Ken as well since he is the one who manufactures them for me.
kenofyork wrote: I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes
No problem, Defiance will find another excuse to not deliver
Yes, definitely pick up those barriers from Proxie (or the tons of awesome bases he offers!). I have both the barriers and the TONS of his bases, and they're amazing... and so cheap!
The shipping containers look great for terrain, too, and it would be great to support Rust Forge as well!
I still hope that Defiance Games pays back both companies, though- Ken of Proxie Model's generosity doesn't make me trust Defiance any further at all, particularly the language posted earlier about needing a written contract to honor their debts.
But, again it's awesome that Ken at Proxie Models is willing to forgive the debt... but the point is that he shouldn't have to!
kenofyork wrote: Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
I am a backer and I would prefer for you to receive your money than to receive any rewards. I'm sure there are plenty of us who feel the same way. If Gary were to set up a poll and ask us how many of us would be willing to delay our rewards indefinitely (like that's much of a change) so that Defiance can pay you back, I'm sure there would be a large positive response.
When I pledged, I knew I might get screwed over. I had no idea that you were getting screwed over, and I find that unacceptable.
kenofyork wrote: Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
I am a backer and I would prefer for you to receive your money than to receive any rewards. I'm sure there are plenty of us who feel the same way. If Gary were to set up a poll and ask us how many of us would be willing to delay our rewards indefinitely (like that's much of a change) so that Defiance can pay you back, I'm sure there would be a large positive response.
When I pledged, I knew I might get screwed over. I had no idea that you were getting screwed over, and I find that unacceptable.
I agree. I'd gladly take a delay or a 25$ hit over Ken not getting paid. In fact, if they could take my money and send it to him instead, I'd be fine with it.
Shepherd23 wrote: Maybe head over to Rust Forge and buy a shipping container or two as well? I know that mike and I would appreciate it AND every sale of a shipping container helps Ken as well since he is the one who manufactures them for me.
kenofyork wrote: Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.
I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.
I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.
I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.
I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.
So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.
Have a nice day.
Ugh. Sorry, I appreciate that you are handling this in the best way that you can see to at the moment but, ugh.
How long before they do this again (because, it worked! Whoever's 'fault' it was in the rotating clown show of 3-4 employees they aren't paying a debt now) and cause another quality small business to falter or even fail?
Despite Proxies generous stance, if Defiance doesn't pay then they are just as shady as they were two days ago. "Succesfully" fulfilling your kickstarter while reneging on your debts does not mean you are turning your company around. Either start acting like a legitimate company or give it up and stop jeopardizing other businesses with your poisonous irresponsibility.
Shepherd23 wrote: Maybe head over to Rust Forge and buy a shipping container or two as well? I know that mike and I would appreciate it AND every sale of a shipping container helps Ken as well since he is the one who manufactures them for me.
I went to grab one or 2 and saw you have them on sale.. but they did not retain sale price once they hit the shopping cart..
Can you shed some light on this?
-P
I apologize for the confusion. I will contact Mike and have the issue resolved ASAP. If you could, give me until tomorrow morning and I will make sure it is resolved by them. Again, I am sorry about the confusion. I am betting that when we ran our last sale, the system flubbed the process of returning everything back to normal. I am going to have the sale prices extended from now until mid November. Thanks again for the order once it goes thru.
YES! That's why we need some orders as well! Hook some brothers up, please.
Is Ken actually in any position to "forgive" if thats the right word, said debt then?
TBH as noble as Kens actions seem to be I would question if its the right move. The company have a habit of this kind of deception and I don't like the idea of them continuing it with no consequences. I don't think paying back what one owes is much to ask.
YES! That's why we need some orders as well! Hook some brothers up, please.
Is Ken actually in any position to "forgive" if thats the right word, said debt then?
TBH as noble as Kens actions seem to be I would question if its the right move. The company have a habit of this kind of deception and I don't like the idea of them continuing it with no consequences. I don't think paying back what one owes is much to ask.
I think Defiance owes Proxie directly and then also owes Rustforge for product that is produced (and was delivered directly to Defiance) by Proxie.
The sob story was horrendous. I am incredulous as to what to believe and what not to believe. Competing realities of various delusions. It is a train wreck of epic proportions. I was not going to get paid ever, as I stated earlier, so I wanted to throw my support for the 600 people about to lose their kick starter money.
My actions were not really noble, I am trying to salvage some kind of positive from a horrible deal I got in to. And maybe a little good public relations will pay off in the future.
I don't know the details, and there is every chance this isn't relevant to the US, but under British rules a Ltd company (an LLC in Murican) only protects its directors from personal financial liability as long as they are running the company in, iirc "a fair and honest manner" or certainly words to that effect.
Basically, without the details I can't really say for sure, if there is any suggestion that anyone involved with Defiance was drawing an unfairly high salary in relation to turnover, or in any way playing fast and loose with company money, then you can still take their house.
kenofyork wrote: I wanted to throw my support for the 600 people about to lose their kick starter money.
Nice gesture but let's face it, that train has left the station. My question is, what the heck are they doing with the money if they're not paying creditors/suppliers/backers?
Wrong, as pointed out, Kickstarter puts all the risk on the backers. You select containers for this project? Tough cookies. You will be informed by Defiance they are no longer an option and will be offered something else in exchange. You will either say 'Thank You' like a good boy or complain about it, but Defiance has an out on accepting responsibility.
CptJake wrote: Wrong, as pointed out, Kickstarter puts all the risk on the backers. You select containers for this project? Tough cookies. You will be informed by Defiance they are no longer an option and will be offered something else in exchange. You will either say 'Thank You' like a good boy or complain about it, but Defiance has an out on accepting responsibility.
This isn't actually the case... There are several avenues open to backers. One of which is to request a refund.
CptJake, I don't know where you got that from. The Kickstarter terms certainly don't say that, and if you backed with a credit card you can almost guarantee that a statement like that will allow you to get your money back.
Unfortunately, in the latter case it's probably Kickstarter who lose the funds, not Defiance, though. Not that KS is going broke anytime soon
If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.
If you think you can get your money back from Kickstarter, you are very mistaken (they are VERY well protected by their terms), If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken. I suspect even your credit card companies won't be of much use after the charge is 90 days old. Defiance has already proven they could care less about their reputation, so if you think shaming them will have an effect, again you are mistaken.
I'm not a lawyer but isn't there a kind of lawsuit where a group of people can sue a company as a whole? I get emails for ones against Walmart and Radioshack occasionally but I can't remember what its called. Class action maybe?
Whatever it is, couldn't the backers file one as a whole against Defiance if things go tits up?
Yep, a class action suit. Without millions on the line (which translates to 100s of thousands for the law firm) it isn't gonna happen.
It is like this. Defiance got under 50k. Kicktarter and Amazon grab almost 10% of that up front. Defiance will be able to show they spent a large portion of their take in a legitimate effort to fulfill their responsibilities to backers. Assuming you get a lawyer to take the class action suit (which will be a rough one due to the size of the action and the fact that backers are residents of multiple states and in fact multiple countries) you then would watch Defiance file bankruptcy, and be able to show the bankruptcy judge work orders/contracts/debt for way more than they took in from the Kickstarter. A company (like Proxie) would have a better chance of collecting damages from any assets Defiance does hold than the individual backers of the Kickstarter would.
But the odds of a law firm stepping up for a class action suit for the just over 40k (KS pledges minus the 10%) are not very high. Typically they will want 10%+ of awarded damages and filing the suit is likely going to make a 4k paycheck not very attractive.
I hear what you are all saying, but this is not the perfect world some of you seem to assume it is.
I mean seriously, the Swap Shop Mod thinks KS would have to kick out the funds? You think Dakka kicks out the funds if a swap shop trade goes bad? Nope, nor should they. KS's protections are going to be leaps and bounds above Dakka's.
There's a thread in the OT section where folks got their money back by filing with their credit card company over a year later on a project that didn't deliver. It's well documented... *shrug*
They are. But after 90 days they are not likely to be very helpful. If Defiance pushes it past 180 days (easy to do with a kickstarter) it is near impossible to get your money back from your CC company. Not saying it never happens, but it is damned rare. The odds of every backer of this going through the hassle (assume defiance completely fails to deliver) is pretty slim. The small handful that raise enough hell with their CC company may get their pledges refunded. May.
You can not get blood from a turnip. Sue all you want- if there is no money to get what is the point? Kick starter is based on trust alone. 600+ people trusted a company with a bad reputation on delivery to finally get it right. However, it is highly unlikely IMHO for this to go off with out some sort of problem. Already they have lost the supplier of the hard plastic mech. (me)
I am going to watch things because it is possible for the new crew to pull it off. If they decide to make a supreme effort. They might even pay me something someday, who knows? It is going to be a major success for the new crew if it works.
I am thinking it will go the other way and lost a lot of money to make certain my tiny little company would not become collateral damage.
CptJake wrote: If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken.
If only there were a court system that catered to small claims such as these; easily accessible to the public, which don't require a lawyer and only need some forms to be filled out.
Your advice is wrong. While I agree Kickstarter themselves are likely immune; the creator most certainly is not; there are many avenues to pursue (but yes, no blood from a turnip).
kenofyork wrote: You can not get blood from a turnip. Sue all you want- if there is no money to get what is the point?
This is the real issue facing backers of kickstarters. Most of these (though by no means all) of these are being done by companies who likely have very little working capital on hand. The whole point of kickstarters is after all, to raise capital. So they take the money, sink it into paying artists, producing product, paying staff, etc. You can sue the entity (that is probably incorporated, protecting those involved) all you want, but there likely isn't going to be more than a fraction of the $ to payout when it's all over.
Sum up, it's not that you can't sue, it's that the cost, effort and outcomes aren't worth it.
CptJake wrote: If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken.
If only there were a court system that catered to small claims such as these; easily accessible to the public, which don't require a lawyer and only need some forms to be filled out.
Your advice is wrong. While I agree Kickstarter themselves are likely immune; the creator most certainly is not; there are many avenues to pursue (but yes, no blood from a turnip).
What advice did I give? I stated there is no feasible way to get back your pledge in most cases. Folks can try all they want. You think a guy in Japan or the UK can bring suit in his version of a small claims court? Even stateside, small claims courts have very limited jurisdiction and the filing fees will likely be close to if not more than your pledge value. Add in time away from work to do the filings and hearing and it just is very unlikely you will be compensated enough to make it worth the effort. Going through your credit card company is probably the best bet, but I have a very good customer service company (we bank with USAA) and have been told getting money back from charges over 6 months old just isn't gonna happen. I'm sure there are exceptions, but again those are gonna take time and a level of documentation that the typical backer isn't going to go through for less than a couple hundred bucks.
I also pointed out that Defiance is sure to be able to show they have legitimately spent the collected pledge money in pursuit of fulfilling the pledges. As a result, if they fail, there will be little even a good lawyer is going to do and the chances of being compensated are poor.
None of that is advice, it is a look at how the system works.
It's just that you were speaking in absolutes. Now you're adding caveats (ALL backers, or overseas ones, etc). I just think it's important to dispel the myth that a backer cannot get compensated. A determined backer most certainly can- whether they think it is worth the effort is another matter entirely.
I think we've covered all aspects of this tangent... any chance we could drop it and get back to the OP?
In the end, both sides are right. You can get refunded in quite a few ways, which take varying amounts of effort. But, most backers won't bother. So, agree to... agree? and get back on topic- Defiance Games not paying Proxie Models (or Rustforge) and their use of the KS funds.
Ok. We resolved the issue with the sale price on our site. So, until mid November, we are having a "YOU NEED SHIPPING CONTAINERS" sale. The Shipping Containers are on sale for US$10.99. That's right! Why are we doing this you ask? Because we want to see a shipping yard on every table across the land!
Now you may be thinking that you don't need any shipping containers. In that you are dead wrong. So you play Mercs, well then you need them. Opposing corporate forces look great when the are killed near shipping containers. Maybe you play Infinity. Then you really need them. MDF Noodle Huts are awesome, but those noodles can't be sold without them being delivered in a shipping container. "But I play 40K and the containers aren't grim dark enough." WHAT! Really!?! Them slap some red paint on them and glue a skeleton to the side! Dark enough for you now? Thought so!
No matter what modern or sci fi or post apoc or steam punk or whatever game you play, a dozen shipping containers will look awesome on your gaming table. What now? You only play games at your FLGS? No problem, just tell them to buy them and save your money for more minis instead. Just make sure those minis are purchased at that same FLGS. We will know!
And remember, if you actually do buy a dozen or more, Will will call you personally and talk to you for at least 5 minutes about his latest obsession. If you act now, them it will be home made bread and the weirdness of doomsday preppers shows. Act fast, this obsession could change anyway now.
P.S. if you are, in fact, a doomsday prepper, then our containers are realistically scaled so that you can know that the scale model of your bunker will match the real life one you plan to build for when the (insert paranoid scenario here) happens. So buy with confidence and increase you survival expectancy by at least 3 months with an accurately scaled model!
If I didn't still have a bunch of resin containers bought on impuls three years ago and never touched since, that sales pitch would have been enough to get me to buy more, just because. So, well played, sir.
insaniak wrote: If I didn't still have a bunch of resin containers bought on impuls three years ago and never touched since, that sales pitch would have been enough to get me to buy more, just because. So, well played, sir.
If I didn't have 80 dollars to my name, I would do the same.
rustforge wrote: And remember, if you actually do buy a dozen or more, Will will call you personally and talk to you for at least 5 minutes about his latest obsession.
This.
Having spoke at length with Will at Adepticon I can say that this is a great reward and should not be overlooked. They may say it's 5minutes but he'll easily blab for an hour if you prod him right.
rustforge wrote: . MDF Noodle Huts are awesome, but those noodles can't be sold without them being delivered in a shipping container.
That's why the makers of said noodle hut sell their own shipping crates to go with them. Best of luck to you getting some money back from this whole affair though.
WarMill wrote: That's why the makers of said noodle hut sell their own shipping crates to go with them. Best of luck to you getting some money back from this whole affair though.
Well aren't you just being a Debbie Downer! Didn't mom teach about saying nice things and stuff? We aren't having the sale because we are desperate to get our money back (we are though). It's because we are nice guys and if we go out of business then you will never get to see my witty sales pitches anymore. Since I know that would cause suicidal depression in a vast majority of the gaming population, this sale is actually my attempt to save the gaming community as a whole! So help your fellow gamers (and me!) and get some hard plastic, superbly detailed, shipping containers already. The life you save may be your own. And you may cheer Warmill into saying something nice (maybe).
Anyway, since Paulson thinks its good stuff, I will make sure to regal all people who purchase a dozen containers with my story of Viagra. And NO, I didn't take it. I am not that old yet!
CptJake wrote: If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken.
If only there were a court system that catered to small claims such as these; easily accessible to the public, which don't require a lawyer and only need some forms to be filled out.
Your advice is wrong. While I agree Kickstarter themselves are likely immune; the creator most certainly is not; there are many avenues to pursue (but yes, no blood from a turnip).
You can file in small claims court, but typically, you have to file in the municipality of where the defendant lives. Filing costs typically run in the $100-$200 range, depending on the area. If you don't live in the area of the defendant, you'll also have to either hire a lawyer to represent you in the court hearing or take on the expense and hassle of traveling to the courts at least once and maybe multiple times. Yes, all of these expenses can be added to the figures on the judgment, but getting a judgment absolutely in no way means that you'll ever see any money on it, even if the guy has the money to give you. Collecting on the judgment is far more difficult than obtaining the judgment.
It's unlikely that anyone would find all of this effort to be worth it over a KS donation of a couple hundred dollars.
Ken, Mike and myself thank everyone who has supported us thru all this nonsense. We really appreciate the orders and I hope that all of you enjoy your purchases of plastic crack.
Caterpylius, your order should ship today if it hasn't already. Cut me some slack! Making these posts takes time. I am not nearly as witty as I make myself sound. As Alfendrate stated, food and sometimes alcohol are needed to make me sound this good.
After the letter were tony mud slung like a teenager I never realy liked the guy. Seemed realy unprofestional of the guy and even then didn't seem the whole truth. I never realy followed his antics once i was defience was makeing the same promises wargames did under tony. After reading about all the stand up guys who he has brought down thew all of this. Its prety disheartning.
Huh, I wonder if this is why they couldn't get the steel mold for bug plastics. They originally said that there were delays, perhaps they just weren't paying the mold-makers.
It seems really stupid because had they just done it the proper way and paid their debts, they'd be in a much better position even if there were delays.
Shepherd23 wrote: Ken, Mike and myself thank everyone who has supported us thru all this nonsense. We really appreciate the orders and I hope that all of you enjoy your purchases of plastic crack.
Caterpylius, your order should ship today if it hasn't already. Cut me some slack! Making these posts takes time. I am not nearly as witty as I make myself sound. As Alfendrate stated, food and sometimes alcohol are needed to make me sound this good.
Hope everyone noticed that it was Proxie that Defiance had tagged as the caster for their german mech. Which Proxie didn't know about and now (obviously) won't be doing.
So they ALREADY weren't paying one of the supposed suppliers for part of their KS fulfillment before the KS had even finished (or started for that matter).
And they now need to find a new caster for their mech or, *shudder* do it themselves.
NoseGoblin wrote: I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.
This would be a great time to show your support....
I also posted it further up this page AND in the news and rumors section as well as 3 other forum sites. This was just in case you missed the TTGN post. Now go order some so the eisenkern have something to die around!
NoseGoblin wrote: I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.
This would be a great time to show your support....
I also posted it further up this page AND in the news and rumors section as well as 3 other forum sites. This was just in case you missed the TTGN post. Now go order some so the eisenkern have something to die around!
NoseGoblin wrote: I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.
This would be a great time to show your support....
I also posted it further up this page AND in the news and rumors section as well as 3 other forum sites. This was just in case you missed the TTGN post. Now go order some so the eisenkern have something to die around!
Schaa..Noice.
Up on my FB and blog as well.
Thank you for that. We appreciate it more than you know. PM me your banner and we will place it on our site.
Please do vote for Proxie Models with this grant. It is very important to him and if he is able to get this grant, the stuff he will be able to do will be amazing.
It also looks like the Defiance podcast that was going to explain the situation is not happening this week after all. I can't say I am surprised. So in the meantime, go buy some containers during our sale and vote for Proxie to get that grant. Go on already. There isn't anything more here for you at the moment.
The planned podcast was likely dropepd as this inconvenient thing called the truth managed to get in the way. Their spin machine is on the blink from overuse this week, but once it's up and running again I'm sure we'll get that podcast in no time
paulson games wrote: The planned podcast was likely dropepd as this inconvenient thing called the truth managed to get in the way. Their spin machine is on the blink from overuse this week, but once it's up and running again I'm sure we'll get that podcast in no time
"Spin machine"? The people currently running DG may well be over their heads, probably unsuited to running this sort of business, and possibly even incompetent, but I doubt they carry that level of malice.
Shepherd23 wrote: Well, the lack of a "spin machine" has caused them to delete the remaining thread on FB about the current happenings. Thank the Internet for forums!
I still think that the term "spin machine" ascribes a level of malice aforethought that makes them sound like the GOP/DNC/Tea Party (choose the political machine you prefer to dislike) rather than the fly-by-night operation they really are.
I just read some of the comments on the kick starter page. Defiance really needs to level with these folks. They put up $46,000 and deserve more than silence. Be honest and tell them the situation. It might not be pretty, but it beats being left in the dark.
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
12 days and counting... still no podcast. They deleated comments on Facebook rather than face their dirty laundry. It doesn't surprise me that there's also no communication on the KS page, that'd imply they possess a spine and sense of accountability.
I am wondering how the kick starter backers are feeling. I know of 2 lawsuits in the works, and there are probably others as well coming. Once you stop being a turnip people start expecting money.
Looks like a substantial portion of the funding is going to go in legal fees and paying off old debts. I am not involved in the lawsuits, I took one for the team to try and save the people who walked blindly in to the trap. Maybe my losses were in vain. It is simply going to be a miracle if this ends well.
For the record, I have not even gotten a thank you e-mail from Defiance after writing off their debts. They are still selling the charity items I donated to them.
Again, as a a backer, I would prefer to see you paid. I'm not happy with Defiance games, and getting new shinies from them won't fix that, whereas paying their debts to some of my favorite miniatures makers would improve my mood.
kenofyork wrote: They are still selling the charity items I donated to them.
Ken they stole those items and you decided not to keep chasing after them. Saying it's a charity item is far too forgiving and makes it sound like you intentionally gave them those items upfront (which you didn't). They stole from you, so you don't need to sugar coat it. People need to take their blinders off and just see Defiance for what they are, a poorly run company that's taken to scamming their creditors and refusing to pay their bills.
It seems that there's a lot of people in denial about what's going to happen to their KS fund, they still want to trust Defiance but the writing has been on the wall for a couple weeks and there's no chance they'll see their money or product. Defiance was a house of cards that everyone kept wanting to pile more faith onto, ignoring all the failures in the past and unfortunately it's at full collapse point and everyone loses. Don't keep trying to prop it up.
kenofyork wrote: For the record, I have not even gotten a thank you e-mail from Defiance after writing off their debts.
While I understand the frustration, when do thieves ever have the decency to thank the victims they steal from?
We're closing in on a month since Defiance stated they''d reveal what's going and and yet still no podcast.....
Looks like there has been another "re-organization" within Defiance and Tony is once again back in charge. (surprise, surprise) Which indicates that the change of ownership was simply a smokescreen for the KS and many had been predicting.
Considering that there are at least two companies seeking legal action against Defiance it seems like there's going to be a snowballs chance in hell of people seeing their hardsuits as Tony has his hands on the the reins yet again and at least one of the four has left the sinking ship.
If you contributed money to their KS campaign I'd highly suggest you get ahold of your credit card company immediately and request to reverse the charge, otherwise you'll be out your money. Do not waste time emailing defiance about asking for a refund as they will stall and delay things until it is too late, go directly to your bank or credit service.
Yes, a source that wishes to remain nameless (and I can't vouch for their credibility either, so salt if you wish) has confirmed that Tony was always in charge.
On top of that, and the alleged lawsuits, there is internal conflict for the control of Defiance.
Source says that the KS money is gone or will be in short order.
Maybe this plays into our confirmation bias about the company, but it certainly sounds plausible. And not even a PM will get me to reveal that source. I was trusted with this information, I shall be worthy of that trust.
fullheadofhair wrote:I notice you didn't add 'on time' to the Raging Hereos comment :-D
That was in purpose But their delay was always in acceptable time scales.
And their products far superior to anything tha Defiance Games claimed to produce.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Source says that the KS money is gone or will be in short order.
Maybe this plays into our confirmation bias about the company, but it certainly sounds plausible. And not even a PM will get me to reveal that source. I was trusted with this information, I shall be worthy of that trust.
It was a 30$ ill spent.
Well, now you can concentrate on buying those fabulous Titans by Daniel Mandelbaum
Mathieu Raymond wrote: On top of that, and the alleged lawsuits, there is internal conflict for the control of Defiance.
Source says that the KS money is gone or will be in short order.
I can imagine...
"You're in charge!"
"No, you're in charge!"
"This company is too incredible to have anyone but YOU at the helm!"
"Ridiculous, only YOU can steer this ship towards further success!"
(extended slap fight ensues)
My guess is that "Tony stepping down" was a complete fabrication to get people to throw in on the kickstarter as they normally wouldn't risk it knowing he was in charge. I've also got $5 riding on the bet that they will use the company re-re-organization to dodge paying their new bills. They used this excuse not to pay Proxie, their excuse came down to sorry debts made with "the old owner/Tony" don't transfer. Now they'll dodge out on all of the debts from the KS by saying well those were debts and obligations "made under Gary not Tony" so we don't owe anyone gak cause he's no longer in charge.
You cannot simply dismiss debts by switching around the figurehead of a company, for a registered business the only way to dismiss those debts is to go through bankruptcy. Otherwise every company on earth would simply rack up as much debts as they wanted then fire the owner or president to get a clean slate. Furthermore somebody's imbezzlement from company funds doesn't give you a free pass to declare the company's debts null and void. As much as Defiance wants to shift the blame and debts around with management it won't hold up in court as the debts are assumed by the company not the individual that works there.
But it is entirely legal (under UK law, and I don't think US differs wildly in this regard) to form a new company, with a subtly different name, and then proceed to sell all your assets to them, while leaving the debts with the old company.
Not saying they've done this, and god help me if they're lurking and I've given them ideas, but it can and does happen.
Now (again under UK law, not sure if this does apply in the US) you can pursue an individual for his LLC's debt, if you can demonstrate fiscal irresponsibility on that individual's part.
azreal13 wrote: But it is entirely legal (under UK law, and I don't think US differs wildly in this regard) to form a new company, with a subtly different name, and then proceed to sell all your assets to them, while leaving the debts with the old company.
Well, now you can concentrate on buying those fabulous Titans by Daniel Mandelbaum
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!!! Shinies!!!!
Seriously, Dreamforge insulated me from that, as well as the plasticard patterns found on the intertoobs. It's immensely satisfying, plus it wiles away the long winter months.
I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.
Thank goodness, Ken! I'm willing to give them the faintest possible chance now, and had no intention of doing so before. Hopefully they follow through in other areas as they have here!
Defiance has also paid us in full as well. We have been withholding comment, per our attorneys advice, until Ken had been paid as well. Ken advised me earlier today that he had been paid and I was waiting for him to say something before I posted.
kenofyork wrote: I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.
How about we wait until that check actually clears, eh?
azreal13 wrote: But it is entirely legal (under UK law, and I don't think US differs wildly in this regard) to form a new company, with a subtly different name, and then proceed to sell all your assets to them, while leaving the debts with the old company.
Yeah, see the Maelstrom and Mierce case.
Not exactly the same, no.
Mierce took the Banelegions stuff, but are a completely different company operating in a different way. If Rob had set up Maelstrom Games (Nottingham) Ltd, and had then purchased the assets of Maelstrom Games Ltd and continued to trade with the same website URL and still as an online wargaming discount retailer, that would be a Phoenix Administration and closer to what I mean.
azreal13 wrote: But it is entirely legal (under UK law, and I don't think US differs wildly in this regard) to form a new company, with a subtly different name, and then proceed to sell all your assets to them, while leaving the debts with the old company.
Yeah, see the Maelstrom and Mierce case.
Not exactly the same, no.
Mierce took the Banelegions stuff, but are a completely different company operating in a different way. If Rob had set up Maelstrom Games (Nottingham) Ltd, and had then purchased the assets of Maelstrom Games Ltd and continued to trade with the same website URL and still as an online wargaming discount retailer, that would be a Phoenix Administration and closer to what I mean.
Yeah, I get it. Completely different Rob Lane. Completely different corner of the same building. Completely different label on the same Banelegions kits, completely diffferent name on the same email-newsletter, so nothing in common at all
But it is rumoured that Rob Lane made Rob Lane a good price because they know each other from school
azreal13 wrote: But it is entirely legal (under UK law, and I don't think US differs wildly in this regard) to form a new company, with a subtly different name, and then proceed to sell all your assets to them, while leaving the debts with the old company.
Yeah, see the Maelstrom and Mierce case.
Not exactly the same, no.
Mierce took the Banelegions stuff, but are a completely different company operating in a different way. If Rob had set up Maelstrom Games (Nottingham) Ltd, and had then purchased the assets of Maelstrom Games Ltd and continued to trade with the same website URL and still as an online wargaming discount retailer, that would be a Phoenix Administration and closer to what I mean.
Yeah, I get it. Completely different Rob Lane. Completely different corner of the same building. Completely different label on the same Banelegions kits, completely diffferent name on the same email-newsletter, so nothing in common at all
But it is rumoured that Rob Lane made Rob Lane a good price because they know each other from school
No, you clearly don't get it, or do, but the facts would prevent writing that reply.
The same people involved is a non-issue, the same building is a non-issue. The fact that you cannot log in to maelstromgames.co.uk and buy a box of Space Marines is the important thing that differentiates the two situations.
While Phoenix Administrations are legal, undervaluing your assets for the transfer is not, so whatever you wish to imply, Mierce will have paid (in theory at least) a fair market price for anything they took off Maelstrom.
But this is decidedly OT and not in the least related to the point I wished to make, so I think that'll do on this point.
kenofyork wrote: I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.
rustforge wrote: Defiance has also paid us in full as well. We have been withholding comment, per our attorneys advice, until Ken had been paid as well. Ken advised me earlier today that he had been paid and I was waiting for him to say something before I posted.
Just quoting these two posts over so we can discuss the relevant info.
Jake, I am just giving them credit for finally paying their debt. That is a positive thing, and means there is a glimmer of hope for them for the future if they continue to make good on their obligations (such as to the Kickstarter backers now).
While it is tempting to look at this as a positive, the cynic in me sees this as damage limitation. If the motivation had been genuine, the general vibe coming from DG would have been more conciliatory ("we're really sorry, everything's been left in a mess, give us a few weeks to sort things out") and less evasive ("well, that wasn't me, so this isn't my problem")
As it stands, I think they have tried and failed to pull a fast one, and are now trying to dig themselves out of a hole.
It certainly won't mean they'll ever have me as a customer.
Very glad to hear that Ken and Rustforge have been compensated. It's not enough to make me regret skipping the kickstarter, but it should be acknowledged as a small step in the right direction. Now it's just a wait-and-see how the KS delivers.
Eilif wrote: Very glad to hear that Ken and Rustforge have been compensated. It's not enough to make me regret skipping the kickstarter, but it should be acknowledged as a small step in the right direction. Now it's just a wait-and-see how the KS delivers.
Tony is very good at making small steps, and well timed ones, in the right direction in order to lure in suckers. He then JUMPS back onto his known pattern of behavior. Repeat as needed. How many folks 'acknowledged the step in the right direction' at the start of the KS? Or when they show new product (without delivering)?
There is nothing praise worthy or good in Defiance. They did what they needed to to avoid a legal problem and to give that visible 'step in the right direction' before they again screw somebody.
Eilif wrote: Very glad to hear that Ken and Rustforge have been compensated. It's not enough to make me regret skipping the kickstarter, but it should be acknowledged as a small step in the right direction. Now it's just a wait-and-see how the KS delivers.
Tony is very good at making small steps, and well timed ones, in the right direction in order to lure in suckers. He then JUMPS back onto his known pattern of behavior. Repeat as needed. How many folks 'acknowledged the step in the right direction' at the start of the KS? Or when they show new product (without delivering)?
There is nothing praise worthy or good in Defiance. They did what they needed to to avoid a legal problem and to give that visible 'step in the right direction' before they again screw somebody.
Exactly, this smacks of nothing more but misdirection and manipulation. I'm just glad that the side effect of them trying to save their skin is that some people received the money they were owed.
It would definitely be nice to hear from Ken or others that the money has actually cleared and funds have landed in their bank, otherwise there is still a chance that this could just be an empty gesture.
(Am I correct in thinking that writing bad cheques has greater consequences in the US than UK though? Here you get charged by the bank for their time and the payee is out of pocket unless they have alternate means to pursue you, hence cheques are almost extinct as a payment method)
You guys can take it however you want. Time will tell whether this is misdirection or a change in behavior, but I'm going to withold judgement (about their motives for making right with Proxie and rustforge) until I see how the KS turns out.
Note that I'm not advocating folks start giving them $ now, but if they've made good with proxie and rusty, then that's enough that I'd be willing to buy a set of battle eggs post-KS if reviews are positive.
Basically I've moved from never buying a DG product (which I publicly said I wouldn't do unless they made right with Ken), to being willing to buy one IF they can deliver a good product.
Basically I've moved from never buying a DG product (which I publicly said I wouldn't do unless they made right with Ken), to being willing to buy one IF they can deliver a good product.
I have too little money and too many honest companies I like to go that route. But to each their own.
It makes sense to be cautious at this point. If you want their products, purchase them from another source. I have seen several stores that carry them.
Always nice to see somebody decide to do the right thing only after lawyers get involved.
I'm sure it was a hard choice between pay what we owe, or get sued in court for what we owe plus a mountain of legal fees.
Also I'm curious to know why there's a distintcion between "somebody at Defiance" and not Defiance as a company. While this is speculation it sounds sorta like somebody didn't want to keep fanning the flames of ruin and decided to pay the money out of pocket to try and keep the lawyers at bay. Was this done by the company or by an individual?
Rather unfortunate for her, hopefully she isn't hit too hard as a result of her new found unemployment.
Heck, might even be someone that Ken can headhunt. Should he manage to get the grant, he will need an IT type person to help with the new fangled computers for his machines (not to mention dust off his webstore a bit).
Well, I contacted Kickstarter about the project being based on fraud, and their response was basically, "we have a department who will look into it." Maybe I'll send them that link, too.
If that doesn't work, I'll have to call the credit card... I hate calling the credit card.
While I have some sympathy for anyone getting burnt by Tony Reidy, I have to say that the Defiance Mk 2 people were (IMnsHO) at the very least negligent in setting up the Kickstarter and taking people's money before they were in control of the company and had done their due diligence. They did not set out the full facts of the company position in an honest manner and now 686 people have poured money into a Black Hole in reliance on the promises made by Darrin, Max, Gary (at the least).
They represented themselves as being the company controllers and have taken money in exchange for the promise to deliver goods that they are now unable to deliver.
In the UK at least, if someone acts in such a way as to reasonably be believed to be a company director, they can be held personally liable for any promises they made that company does not then fulfill. I don't know if the US has any similar laws.
TBH it seems like someone is always blaming someone else at Defiance. Not one person seems willing to put there hands up and admit that they fethed up and were part of the problem.
It seems as though the blog page mysteriously disappeared... just like so many other bad press posts that have hit Defiance's facebook page and forums.
Fortunately a kindly gent on the Frothers forum saved it.
(all names are changed to protect the wicked parties).
Sorry for the silence on our end. We just put up an update asking for your opinions on the survey. We'll have answers to other posted questions soon and then will be responding as they come in. Thanks again.
They are good at replying without providing any actual content.
Their more recent "replies" are the same reply that has been copy pasted, or a statement like give us more time we're working on a statement which never comes.
Detailed replies you can totally forget about. Plus they are still ignoring or deleting anything having to do with looking at the company management.
I'd love to re-post the blog entry on the KS page, but that would have required pledging and IMO it's not worth giving them even $1.
If that blog post is accurate I wonder what poor sap has "bought" Defiance? And WHY? If you put more than $20k in to it you could have just as easily started your own company and have initiated a more impressive product line in less time then it's going to take Defiance to stumble their way towards releasing a poorly cast egg robot.
I think maybe Gary had assumed control of Defiance based on what was said in his prior posts, but it's hard to say as that could have been a pre-kickstarter smoke screen to get people to pledge thinking Tony was gone.
I do find it somewhat suspect that the other people at Defiance claiming everything is Tony's fault. While I don't doubt that's where the majority of the fault lies I find it hard to believe that they are working in a complete vacuum. Like she said she didn't see a sustainable amount of product being shipped and that there were serious warnings going on about the health of the company. (who the heck works for 2 years without pay??) But at the same time everyone keeps those items quiet and focuses on the KS as a way of getting paid.
If the employees were in fact looking out for their customers and pledgers you think they might have said something like hey maybe this isn't a good idea. Instead it appears they intentionally withheld their concerns while accepting everyone's money, which is in effect acting as an accomplice to Tony's mismanagement/scamming.
My personal thinking is that all of this has been intentional based on the history with wargames factory and their other production contractors (who are still unpaid). In business you don't get multiple "start overs" and these situations happening repeatly are usually indicators of an intentional pattern of fraud. I think the KS was likely undertaken to try and shore things up a bit before the dam broke completely and everyone was probably so desperate to get anything they could they didn't question things, or in a worst case scenario covered it up on purpose for a money grab.
I'm sure we won't ever get the full story to know if it's a case of intentional deception or just plain up stupidity, but in either case the end result is likely the same. The company is going to fail due to mismanagement and will cost their kickstarter supporters a lot of money.
Clearly they need to run another kickstarter so folks can give them another chance and help them get the New New Newer Newest Defiance off to a good start.
You can't really claim they were incompetent at the fraud. How much did they pull in via the Kickstarter?
Frankly that was brilliant. A company known to have massive issues delivering anything they promise and known to have issues with honesty is able to run a successful Kickstarter and have a slew of folks talking about how great it is that they have finally changed.
paulson games wrote: It seems as though the blog page mysteriously disappeared... just like so many other bad press posts that have hit Defiance's facebook page and forums.
Fortunately a kindly gent on the Frothers forum saved it.
(all names are changed to protect the wicked parties).
As entertaining as it might be I would just like to see them disappear and stop taking resources away from all the other amazing small miniature companies that have sprung up recently.
I would be more conflicted if they brought something amazing to the table, but just couldn't get the business side of things together...but they offer nothing. Barely average poorly cast models, horrible realisations of decent concept art.
We have so many companies doing everything that Defiance wish they were doing.
Agreed on that, plastictrees... I'm just surprised that they continue to be able to get people to give them money on credit! I could understand ordering one of their items through a distributor, if someone really wanted it... but to kickstart them just seems crazy, given their track record.
plastictrees wrote: As entertaining as it might be I would just like to see them disappear and stop taking resources away from all the other amazing small miniature companies that have sprung up recently.
I would be more conflicted if they brought something amazing to the table, but just couldn't get the business side of things together...but they offer nothing. Barely average poorly cast models, horrible realisations of decent concept art.
We have so many companies doing everything that Defiance wish they were doing.
I don't agree completely. I am a big fan of their "good plastic" UAMC minis and I haven't seen anyone else release a similar product yet. However, as soon as WGF does come out with near-future troops, I'll be right on board with you.
Everything else, though... well, who else is making some nice bugs?
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
I've got a ton of Tyranids. I pledged in Trollforge's KS and in Total Extinction. I'm also looking forward to more Shadowkesh.
I'll wait for the cheaper AVP plastics. Starship Troopers had plastic bugs? I would like to know more.
Excalibur looks like 15mm stuff, otherwise (judging from their photos) is an extremely ironic recommendation from someone who thinks that Hudson's Bugs look like toys. They may not cast up well, but the designs were unique.
I'm looking more for Not-Shadows instead of Not-Giger-Aliens. Do you have any suggestions to fit that aesthetic?
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
ummmmm....wow. Nimrod Tony can't even keep a rules writer who defended him.... I'm sure it's completely someone else's fault; I mean, he's in meetings all day, how can he run the company?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am a big fan of their "good plastic" UAMC minis and I haven't seen anyone else release a similar product yet. However, as soon as WGF does come out with near-future troops, I'll be right on board with you.
In my opinion, this is the real mystery DG. Their first product was not perfect, but it was a solid all-plastic offering that was better than the sci-fi troopers that the Wargames Factory (where DG's crew came from) was making. This really made some waves and folks were really looking forward to what was next. I don't know, and perhaps someone can tell me whether DG ...didn't make enough $ on the UAMC marines,
or
lost thier plastic supplier,
or
was tempted to a cheaper material
or
what...
but they proceeded to relase 4 spin-cast products. Each of lower quality than the UAMC marines. Each with major issues (bugs) Scale and sculpting issues (Germans), Unavaialability (JRAB), Major casting issues (Chineese). They did make some one-piece worms, that didn't seem to have any major issues, but their attempts at making mulitpart minis post UAMC have all fallen flat.
Makes one wonder why they couldn't have just taken their time and released 1 or two high quality plastic kits rather than a string of spin-plas failures.
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
That's huge news. Howard was Tony's biggest appologist and now even now he's out and spilling the beans.
The lose of the marines and decent plastics was due to their split with wargames factory. Ie Tony mismanaging Wargames factory to the point it was taken over due to debt. After the take over they relaunched as Defiance.
You'll note that Wargames Factory has continued on just fine without Tony (or other employees) that regrouped as Defiance. Wargames factory is putting out some really impressive stuff. They've been working with Dreamforge and they also do the plastics for Malifaux. Mantic also has some nice sci fi plastics coming out very shortly.
The lack in quality on Defiance's end is likely due to them having an unclear vision and burning their bridges with quality production companies.
NoseGoblin wrote: I was hoping that the company was turning over a new leaf but with all the recent news it seems that is not a possibility.
As a result I requested and was given a full refund.
From Defiance?
How did you get ahold of them? They never got back to me on any of my queries...
Thanks, Jehan-reznor. I'll put it on my lookout list for Black Friday.
I contacted them and never received a reply. I then opened a ticket with Amazon Payments. I would imagine they still have some leeway in deciding that they will or will not give refunds so I am assuming they (Defiance) decided that they would approve the refund.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am a big fan of their "good plastic" UAMC minis and I haven't seen anyone else release a similar product yet. However, as soon as WGF does come out with near-future troops, I'll be right on board with you.
In my opinion, this is the real mystery DG. Their first product was not perfect, but it was a solid all-plastic offering that was better than the sci-fi troopers that the Wargames Factory (where DG's crew came from) was making. This really made some waves and folks were really looking forward to what was next. I don't know, and perhaps someone can tell me whether DG ...didn't make enough $ on the UAMC marines,
or
lost thier plastic supplier,
or
was tempted to a cheaper material
or
what...
but they proceeded to relase 4 spin-cast products. Each of lower quality than the UAMC marines. Each with major issues (bugs) Scale and sculpting issues (Germans), Unavaialability (JRAB), Major casting issues (Chineese). They did make some one-piece worms, that didn't seem to have any major issues, but their attempts at making mulitpart minis post UAMC have all fallen flat.
Makes one wonder why they couldn't have just taken their time and released 1 or two high quality plastic kits rather than a string of spin-plas failures.
Just got pointed this way, since I heard of Darred's blog posting via one of the fictionally-named people in the story.
From contact with the people involved over the past weeks, that's the way I'd understood it as well.
I'd been involved in Wargames Factory when Tony ran it and – since he's a very likeable, plausible person and had (mostly) paid me for my work, I defended him at the time the smash-up happened with the Hong Kong-based supplier/partner. The fact that the new owner didn't pay my back wages really influenced my decision, without my realizing some of the things Tony had done to contribute to the failed partnership. Serious things, as it later turned out.
So when Tony started Defiance I was happy to write a set of rules, run demos and do some forum moderating. But it became clear that Tony was repeating all the errors that he'd blamed on the Chinese end of the business, and that his casual financial approach seemed irresponsible. So in mid 2012 I stepped away – I wasn't getting paid, investors I knew personally told me they weren't getting repaid – and I took my toys home quietly. I didn't say anything. A friend and I started a new, small company to publish rules.
In the last couple of months I've been in contact with the production team mentioned in Darred's blog – all people I believe to be good folks with the best of intentions – in order to provide contacts with some suppliers who told me by phone that they were owed considerable sums of money from many months before. Aside from confirming the wisdom of my stepping away from DG, this also indicated to the team the actual state of finances. As Darred said, their efforts to find a way of continuing to operate DG have been undermined by the founder of the company. They offered to stay and see the Kickstarter through, but are no longer willing to do so.
I'd left my Beta version of the set of Sci Fi rules (which seem to be well liked) on the DG site, but I've asked for them to be taken down. I'll revise them and offer them again under a different name at another time.
That's about it, to the best of my knowledge – Howard
That's huge news. Howard was Tony's biggest appologist and now even now he's out and spilling the beans.
Hard tooling is expensive... You need to sell about 3000 units or so (depending on your price point) just to make back the initial investment. The decision to move to spincast as a financially viable option if you are concerned about the up front costs or the ability to pay for the tooling with a short run.
Considering most minis only sell about 1000 units (according to a very knowledgably spincaster) it is a bit of a gamble.
paulson games wrote: The lose of the marines and decent plastics was due to their split with wargames factory. Ie Tony mismanaging Wargames factory to the point it was taken over due to debt. After the take over they relaunched as Defiance.
You'll note that Wargames Factory has continued on just fine without Tony (or other employees) that regrouped as Defiance. Wargames factory is putting out some really impressive stuff. They've been working with Dreamforge and they also do the plastics for Malifaux. Mantic also has some nice sci fi plastics coming out very shortly.
The lack in quality on Defiance's end is likely due to them having an unclear vision and burning their bridges with quality production companies.
WGF has gone from strength to strength. We will see how they look in a year after this period of rapid growth of course, but they are doing some impressive work at the moment.
The lack of quality from Defiance seems to have everything to do with cost cutting. They could have had Ed at Trollforged cast for them, or assist with casting at least, but they chose to do a sloppy job of it themselves.
I assume that they are constantly about three steps behind their income, paying late for work/product with money that came in for completely different work/product. We just get to see that up close now.
kenofyork wrote: I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.
rustforge wrote: Defiance has also paid us in full as well. We have been withholding comment, per our attorneys advice, until Ken had been paid as well. Ken advised me earlier today that he had been paid and I was waiting for him to say something before I posted.
Just quoting these two posts over so we can discuss the relevant info.
Jake, I am just giving them credit for finally paying their debt. That is a positive thing, and means there is a glimmer of hope for them for the future if they continue to make good on their obligations (such as to the Kickstarter backers now).
I certainly hope both of your cheques clear. It's certainly a good thing to hear this news so far, anyway.
Several people have asked about the events that happened that caused Rust Forge to seek legal assistance in order to secure payment from Defiance Games. Below is a timeline of events that should answer everyone’s questions.
Days 1 - 14 We contacted Defiance to inquire about a product trade for advertising purposes. We had been searching for some 28mm hard sci-fi miniatures to use for display and advertising to help show our products scale and we thought that the DG marines might fit the bill. Initially we sought to trade them some cargo containers they could use in a similar fashion for their promotional materials. DG countered that they would actually like to carry the product as part of their Alien Suns line. After discussion, it was decided to go ahead with this plan. Their order was placed and shipped with a NET10 payment schedule.
Days 15 - 45 A second smaller order was placed this time with a net 30 pay schedule before the initial net 10 became due. When the initial net 10 came due DG stated that the initial NET10 payment wasn't possible for them to make and asked for a NET 30 on the original order citing waiting on distributor payments. As having to wait for a distributor to send payment on their own net 30, net 60, or sometimes longer schedule is not uncommon we agreed with this time frame. After the 30 days had gone by with no payment, DG stated that due to some production issues, they had not received the money that they were expected and were going to be further delayed with payment. We weren't happy, but we accepted this reason. Everyone has unexpected issues that crop up from time to time.
Days 46 - 90(ish) DG continued to be in regular communication throughout this time. They continued asserting that the production issues were causing the delays and as soon as they were paid we would be paid. They also stated that the were having discussions with possible investors that would speed up the payment timing issues. During the end of this timeframe, we began discussing possible legal actions with our attorney. We decided to hold off for a bit more time because we still felt that we weren't be lied to and that DG were just having a rough time.
Days 91(ish) - 120(ish) DG launched their kickstarter and announced the management change. We learned of the change when everyone else did via 3rd party sources. We had no prior notice of this before the first public notice on FB and the DG website. We immediately contacted the "new" management who continued with the same story of delay issues, BUT started to give us time frames of when we would get paid. These time frames came and went several times with no payment or likelihood of one. At time we began to witness a serious level of blame being thrown between the old and new management. Each claiming the other was responsible for the debts of the business, controlled access to funds for making payments, and whose responsibility it was to satisfy the debts. At this time we told the attorney to send the intent of lawsuit paperwork. Immediately after talking to our attorney, DG announced that the "new" management is no longer the management at all.
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue. Tony replies that a check will be sent out shortly. Almost one week later we received a check, for full payment owed, by Tony. That check was cashed and had since cleared in full.
As of today we have had several discussions since this all started and we have determined that for the time being, DG is in too much turmoil to continue to do business with. It is just not a good idea considering all the new information that has come to light the past few weeks to continue to be associated with DG. Tony is a very likable individual. He is very pleasant to talk to and has many high hopes and ideas for his company. We hope that he can get things together so they can be brought to reality.
I hope that clears everything up with people. We do not hold any ill will towards anyone involved. Everything was finally resolved and in full. We are moving forward and we hope that all other parties are able to so as well.
Sounds like they wouldn't have paid if they thought they could get away with it. Honest I don't think I would ever trust any of my money to defiance games.
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue.
Interesting as that doesn't match Defiance's earlier claim, which looks to be a deliberate lie to KS backers.
From their forum & KS updates:
ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management 19 Sep 2013 12:00 #1
Gary Pelletier
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue.
Interesting as that doesn't match Defiance's earlier claim, which looks to be a deliberate lie to KS backers.
From their forum & KS updates:
ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management 19 Sep 2013 12:00 #1
Gary Pelletier
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
-Snip-
- Gary Pelletier
And that bring up the question how dumb is Gary Pelletier.... "So Gary your looking to join are family and Game&Thing. Wait, you wouldn't be the Gary Pelletier that helped Tony cheat people out of the money. By lying about taking over Defiance while Tony was really in charge. Sorry we pass, good luck at you next interview maybe they won't do a check on there furtue employees."
winnertakesall wrote: I worked with DF a little bit in the past, just playtesting their rules and giving feedback on the early company, been in the email group ever since, jrecieved an email from Gary a few days ago, I hope it clears some things up:
Hey all.
I don't know how many people actually come our here but I wanted to update you all as best I could with the Situation at Defiance Games.
I know there's been a lot of confusion as to what's actually going on. The fact is that myself and the team that had been working on the Kickstarter have left the Company.
Tony is now running things and we're moving on. Howard has been around giving our team valued advice but otherwise he's been pretty much out of the company for a long time. I know he's asked Tony to remove his rules from the Website. He's moving on as well.
John's not a "new" employee he's been part of this since they were wargames factory, nice to see that the management shell game is still in full swing. With several members of the defiance team reportedly having left I'm curious if the "team "is now the magic duo of just Tony and John?
paulson games wrote: I'm curious if the "team "is now the magic duo of just Tony and John?
I think that's more accurate
So, didn't the words of the immortal bards, The Who, say, "meet the new boss/same as the old boss..."? Humorously enough, how many people said that they "won't get fooled again"?
paulson games wrote: I'm curious if the "team "is now the magic duo of just Tony and John?
I think that's more accurate
So, didn't the words of the immortal bards, The Who, say, "meet the new boss/same as the old boss..."? Humorously enough, how many people said that they "won't get fooled again"?
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the new dictionary definition of "irony".
Tony should team up with Daniel Mandelbaum. Both have no time to produce anything because they are too occupied with inventing new excuses why nothing happens
The above quote is regarding a Facebook thread where Defiance posts about how many likes they're getting... while users discuss that they are paid for likes.
Ed Fortae on January 5th wrote:This is one of the funniest things I've seen in a while. It's also sad at the same time. I had high hopes in the start with this company over a year ago when I first started working as a mold maker but then found out the very short term of pay was to rip off my process of working. Sculpts I did we're never paid for and besides me several others were ripped off.
People have been asking who is the owners etc. well there is one legitimate owner with people given ownership in equity. I had paper work years ago putting me down to try and work for equity. I knew what it was and never took it instead leaving unable to continue with no pay. Equity means when defiance makes $1 profit you would split that with the other 15 owners at a percentage of 7% or something.
There were so many owners I believe the percentage would be hard to divide into anything reasonable.
For the last several months, we here at DFG have been working with some top-notch pro painters on developing a system to make painting miniatures easy, fast, and above all - fun! We've experimented with a number of different products and techniques and believe we've found something that is going to make wargamers' lives REALLY easy.
I bet its acrylic paint - and a brush.
Also - have the pro painters been paid or are they like eBay brand 'pro-painters'?
For the last several months, we here at DFG have been working with some top-notch pro painters on developing a system to make painting miniatures easy, fast, and above all - fun! We've experimented with a number of different products and techniques and believe we've found something that is going to make wargamers' lives REALLY easy.
I bet its acrylic paint - and a brush.
Also - have the pro painters been paid or are they like eBay brand 'pro-painters'?
For the last several months, we here at DFG have been working with some top-notch pro painters on developing a system to make painting miniatures easy, fast, and above all - fun! We've experimented with a number of different products and techniques and believe we've found something that is going to make wargamers' lives REALLY easy.
I bet its acrylic paint - and a brush.
Also - have the pro painters been paid or are they like eBay brand 'pro-painters'?
Leak of actual product used on actual Defiance miniatures:
For the last several months, we here at DFG have been working with some top-notch pro painters on developing a system to make painting miniatures easy, fast, and above all - fun! We've experimented with a number of different products and techniques and believe we've found something that is going to make wargamers' lives REALLY easy.
I bet its acrylic paint - and a brush.
Also - have the pro painters been paid or are they like eBay brand 'pro-painters'?
Leak of actual product used on actual Defiance miniatures:
For the last several months, we here at DFG have been working with some top-notch pro painters on developing a system to make painting miniatures easy, fast, and above all - fun! We've experimented with a number of different products and techniques and believe we've found something that is going to make wargamers' lives REALLY easy.
I bet its acrylic paint - and a brush.
Also - have the pro painters been paid or are they like eBay brand 'pro-painters'?
I'm envisioning something along the line of Homer Simpson's make-up shotgun.
Maybe they should get a handle on sculpting and producing models before they get too worried about how we paint them.
Honestly I feel bad for ED and the other people tony screwed over. To the other hand why did so many gamers trust anything he was involved in because he showed his true colors with wargames factory.
Empchild wrote: Honestly I feel bad for ED and the other people tony screwed over. To the other hand why did so many gamers trust anything he was involved in because he showed his true colors with wargames factory.
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. As for the WGF thing, the details of that took a long time to truely come to life. I recall that for quite a while it was the general opinion of the wargaming community that Tony had been screwed by a Chinese investor and had been the wronged party.
It wasn't until WGF post-Tony established a good track record, DG's second round of products began to show issues (the UAMC were fairly well received), and former supporters of Tony came forward to shed light on DG and his time at WGF that the community's opinion really began to shift against Tony.
That said, anyone who was aware of the history and bought in anyway, was definitely taking a gamble that I wasn't willing to make.
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. .
That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. .
That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
Makes you wonder how these are still in business. Using the USMC logo without permission? I think somewhere a game company just hit a new low.
CptJake wrote:That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
Makes you wonder how these are still in business. Using the USMC logo without permission? I think somewhere a game company just hit a new low.
The law that made it legal for the US military to require permission is only ten years old, isn't it? And frankly, the USMC are pretty stupid when it comes to their brand recognition. Only a complete idiot would publicly praise their new camouflage pattern because "We want them to see us coming a mile away in our new uniforms." and not recognise the cognitive dissonance.
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. .
That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
That was a small matter that most folks wrote off as the birth pains of a new company's first product. When they finally arrived, folks were actually quite pleased with the product and it seemed like Defiance was a company that would be making cool hard plastic miniatures of decent (not amazing) quality.
I'm not disputing that there were clues, but it took time for all the pieces to fall into place to where the gaming community realized how deep the rabbit hole went.
Project Update #29: Hardsuit Molding
Posted by Defiance Games ♥ Like
Hi All - sorry for the silence we've just been incredibly busy pulling everything together for the Kickstarter and also getting ready to relaunch the website and the online shop.
Part of our delay was finalizing some changes to the hardsuit parts to make them ideal for manufacturing. We wanted to highlight a few of those here so you can see what we're doing with them.
This first one is the flame unit arm. Originally (orange master above) we had this as one piece. For easier molding we've detached the tank and added a slot for fitting it to the main weapon. This will make molding much easier and give a better final part.
These next two are the main body "pod" for the suit. Originally this was two parts for the main pod and the top plate with the missile defense tubes. We were able to merge these together. There wasn't really any benefit in having that part so this will save a gluing step for assembly.
Finally the open-hand left arms that come with the set had some sculpture modifications done to spread the fingers a bit. This was also for molding purposes to have the parts release from the mold better. (apologies for the dirty fingernail!)
Mostly little things but they add up to a better overall set. With our release date fast approaching for the first set in the Kickstarter - these hardsuits - we are working hard and fast to get them ready to go.
Stay tuned and we'll have more to share next week. Have a great weekend everyone.
Dear Backers,
This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”
We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.
A Recap:
As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.
The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.
Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.
The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.
Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.
With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.
I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.
It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.
Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!
Clearly we have a serious problem.
Get Another Production Company?
Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.
I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”
The Problem
And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.
Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.
Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.
Where Do We Go From Here?
Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.
The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.
This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.
I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.
Tl:dr
In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.
~ Natalya & the Torn World Team
Wowzers, I don't think I have heard of a KS go this 'belly up' in the miniatures/wargaming arena yet. It is hard when the money is 'gone' and you have nothing to show for it and no way to refund anything.
I'm sure Tony or someone was a Torn Armor backer and offered to help them with their surplus money problem. This guy is a complete tool; there's a special place in hades for him, I hope.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times.
Of course not. It's not like there were any warning signs that you shouldn't give other people's money to the company.
Exactly......I'd have thought even if they were using Bing as their search engine it would quickly turn up the infamous history of Defiance. Sounds like a basic failure of diligence.
I don't blame the Kickstarter people for being a bit naive.
The great benefit of Kickstarter is that it allows anyone with an idea to appeal for project funding. The great disadvantage of Kickstarter is that it allows anyone with an idea to appeal for project funding even if they have no business experience or skills.
It is in the nature of Kickstarter that if a project fails there isn't a wider business supporting it. Supporters should not consider their funding to be pre-orders that a normal company would be obliged to refund.
Dear Backers,
This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”
We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.
A Recap:
As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.
The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.
Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.
The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.
Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.
With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.
I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.
It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.
Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!
Clearly we have a serious problem.
Get Another Production Company?
Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.
I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”
The Problem
And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.
Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.
Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.
Where Do We Go From Here?
Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.
The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.
This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.
I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.
Tl:dr
In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.
~ Natalya & the Torn World Team
That is really terrible.
My own morbid curiosity wonders if Torn really took a good long look at the Defiance's product line before choosing them. If it was a year ago, then they didn't have as many bad products on the market yet, but back then IIRC, DG had already posted a sort of calendar of releases that was way behind.
Still, my sympathies to Torn World and their backers.
And I get yet another reason to be glad I didn't buy into this KS.
Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.
Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.
This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.
After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.
You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.
Just sounds like Defiance is looking for a moment to sound indignant while backhandedly sighing in great relief that there's one less job anyone's actually expecting them to deliver on. Although you'd think they'd have better sense than to be judging the character of someone else with such indignation, considering their own storied history.
If you give several 10k $ to a random person with a bad reputation, what on earth do you expect to happen? You sometimes have to pay for being that stupid and irresponsible with money.
Defiance is done if they do not return the money and Torn Armor does not post a positive statement of resolution; and then they may still be done. The only way Defiance Games can survive is by returning the money, otherwise this is it for Defiance Games.
Third time is a charm, and that charm is an Albatross.
Defiance Games is probably already done, but it hardly matters... they've got almost 50K from their own campaign, plus the funds from Torn Armor that were given to them... they'll make off into the night with all or most of it, and not really care that their name is irrecoverable.
It sucks... the only way to avoid that is for Torn Armor to pursue legal action against them as Rust Forge successfully did. I really, really hope that they do this.
RiTides wrote: Defiance Games is probably already done, but it hardly matters... they've got almost 50K from their own campaign, plus the funds from Torn Armor that were given to them... they'll make off into the night with all or most of it, and not really care that their name is irrecoverable.
It sucks... the only way to avoid that is for Torn Armor to pursue legal action against them as Rust Forge successfully did. I really, really hope that they do this.
I honestly doubt there is money there to get at this point.
Dump $50k into a business and it can go fast. That's far less than a years salary for two people, not even counting outflow of cash for sub-contractors, supplies, etc. Also, depending on how the organization is setup, there may be no legal way to go after individual people. Depending on how it was spent, and the financial condition of the rest of the business it might well be already gone.
Well it depends if the only outflow is to Tony ' s bank account or not.. saying the previous rumor about everything they're showing being around for months and months.
On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
, glad I stayed away from the kickstarter. I wonder if kickstarter has any recourse against defiance now. Or if people could go against kickstarter for not doing enough checking into this project? After all isn't that what kickstarter supposedly does for a week or so before a project goes live?
or get off the pot and get out of the industry. there are too many companies out there that you are infecting with your disease of scummy business practices.
