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Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 17:48:25


Post by: Nuln_Oil


Hi everyone, greetings from a loyal CSM player. With the release of the AM codex, and all the things that have been occurring over the past year or so, it is beginning to seem that CSM is becoming more and more a bottom tier army. We don't have the abilities that many of the armies have. Our access to psycker with divination is extremely limited, the DPs are forced to take at least one warp charge from the codex powers (which are terrible, don't lie), and our psykers generally costs more than other armies'. As for shooting, I think CSM is mediocre, nothing really special, nothing really terrible. Just average. As for assault, we are way overcosted, in an edition that does not favor assaulting. With all the servo skulls, and the over costing/nerfing of our assault units (don't talk to me about possessed, they still suck), we have trouble getting into assault.

After a weekend of some pretty intense gaming, it is seeming that the only real ability we have is the ability to MSU, but we have to take drakes (which is a crutch). Even then though, MSU is done far better by other armies, such as AM.

Anyways, enough with the rant. What are everyone's general feelings about CSM? Where do you think it ranks as far as competitiveness? Do you think things will just get worse with future codexes?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 17:59:43


Post by: Exergy


The CSM codex was terrible from the day it was printed and relied on wanky FA choices to beat non updated lists. Each passing day makes them more irrelevant.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:00:00


Post by: BrianDavion


I think CSMs will get better with future codexes, of course a future codex is proably a long time off. (like 5 years)

they're still not BAD now, but definatly suffer from an army with a lot of assault options in a shooty edition.

that said from an assault POV, they also suffer from not having many ways to bring that army INTO assault. they really could use some sort of "open topped rhinio" or something


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:03:42


Post by: Vaktathi


Fundamentally the CSM book is not really a 6th edition designed army. You'll see some 6E rules hamfisted in, but almost as an afterthought. At it's core, it still wants to play like a 4E or 5E army, with mechanized assault troops out of closed topped rhino's, AV12 support vehicles, and small units of heavy CC units that work best when they can consolidate up a line.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:04:49


Post by: Ailaros


You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination? Divination does not a good army make, nor a lack a bad army.

Their shooting is just average, this is true, but that doesn't make them bad either.

The reason you think the're bad is because you think that their close combat is overpriced, which is painfully inaccurate. CSM has some of the best close combat in the game, and for not ridiculous prices either.

Yeah, 6th ed hates assault, which is what caps the highest that CSM can rise, but that doesn't make CSM a bad army, it just makes it not the best.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:07:42


Post by: Nuln_Oil


 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex was terrible from the day it was printed and relied on wanky FA choices to beat non updated lists. Each passing day makes them more irrelevant.


This pretty much summarizes my feelings on this, unfortunately.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:08:26


Post by: AtoMaki


 Ailaros wrote:
You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination?


Uhm... But they do have Divination... 'cept if you want the black mace/Khorne axe/magic flamer.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:10:55


Post by: Nuln_Oil


 Ailaros wrote:
You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination? Divination does not a good army make, nor a lack a bad army.

Their shooting is just average, this is true, but that doesn't make them bad either.

The reason you think the're bad is because you think that their close combat is overpriced, which is painfully inaccurate. CSM has some of the best close combat in the game, and for not ridiculous prices either.

Yeah, 6th ed hates assault, which is what caps the highest that CSM can rise, but that doesn't make CSM a bad army, it just makes it not the best.



No, they are overpriced. If a unit gets cut in half or in 2/3 before it get's into assault, that is a huge dump in points. Perhaps you are looking at value before the smoke clears. In reality, the points we spend on cc units are not worth anywhere near as much as other armies. With the rules the way they currently are, with the lack of options to get into CC, our CC units should be much much cheaper. Right now it's a waste to take KBs or possess. Spawn are cool, but then you have to worry about AA (because you can't take drakes). If you'd like to be more specific, please let me know what you mean. I am open to different ways of thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AtoMaki wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
You're saying CSM are bad because they don't have divination?


Uhm... But they do have Divination... 'cept if you want the black mace/Khorne axe/magic flamer.


I said it was limited access, not no access. And we get one sorcerer that can take it. That means our roles are random, and we risk not getting what we want (prescience isn't the only reason to take divination).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 18:42:23


Post by: ClockworkZion


In general I find CC units are priced based on the fact that on a good turn of assault they can flat out murder a unit through sweeping advances. If that was changed they could easily be points costed a good bracket lower and be more likely to be seen on the table even with the current assault rules.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 19:24:59


Post by: MWHistorian


If a codex relies on one unit to keep it somewhat competative, it's not a good codex.
Sure, there are other builds out there, but they're not going to be very good. Some are even very fun builds and might surprise a player who hasn't seen it yet. But on average the Chaos Marines are underwhelming.
Warp Talons, Mutilators, Defilers, 1Ksons, Possessed, champions that must challenge, expensive, not ver good pyskers, very few options for vehicles, etc etc.
Even with this, the Dex isn't weak. It's "Alright." Maybe 7.0.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 19:35:45


Post by: Accolade


I feel Chaos forces are always doomed to a degree of irrelevance due to their being a polar opposite of Imperial forces, which receive constant attention, even more so now with the advent of mini-codices.

Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle (even in their tiny digital release), Space Marines, Inquisition, etc. Chaos is seen as the main enemy of the Imperium, and their forces lack the volume of releases that Imperial ones do, with fosters that sense of irrelevancy.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 19:54:22


Post by: Ailaros


Nuln_Oil wrote:If a unit gets cut in half or in 2/3 before it get's into assault, that is a huge dump in points.

I don't think you understand how CC armies work. It's not a problem with the CSM codex here.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:06:14


Post by: Nuln_Oil


 Ailaros wrote:
Nuln_Oil wrote:If a unit gets cut in half or in 2/3 before it get's into assault, that is a huge dump in points.

I don't think you understand how CC armies work. It's not a problem with the CSM codex here.



I don't think you know how to make a point. Thank you for the conclusion without any analysis. Also, thank you for assuming that am only arguing that CSM sucks as assault, which I am not.

I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up. The unit gets shot to pieces, can't deep strike, runs the risk of the LR getting popped, and often times get widdled away before getting anywhere near assault. It matters not if it is a result of the edition; what matter is that 300 points in assault units in the CSM codex, and other assault codexes, do not go anywhere near as far as 300 points in a shooty army. That, combined with the fact that CSM is meant to assault, makes the codex really irrelevant.

If you want to troll, just let me know and i'll ignore your vague, nonresponsive points.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:08:37


Post by: Martel732


CSM are indeed pretty bad. They pay a premium to put models on the table that other players tell them to put back in the model carrier at a pretty staggering rate.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:14:33


Post by: Sidstyler


Yeah, CSM suck right now. More to do with the core rules than the codex itself in my opinion, but the CSM book has also been lacking in flavor since the 4th edition update. Cultists are nice, and I kinda like the idea of units like the warpsmith, the dark apostle and the new daemon engines, even if they kinda fail rules-wise (and in the case of the daemon engines, model-wise as well), and it goes without saying that the way they've treated cult units is kinda lame.

Careful what you wish for, though. Tau were a bottom tier army all through 5th, and I was hopeful for a new codex since I was tired of always losing or at best playing for a draw, and look how that turned out. I have thousands of points worth of Tau, god only knows how much money sunk into this army...all useless now. Not because the rules are bad, but because they're too good, and no one will let me play with them anymore. So even when GW turns its Sauron-esque, all-seeing eye at you, from betwixt its pointed ivory towers, it can sometimes end up being worse than if they had continued to look the other way.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:35:01


Post by: Ailaros


Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:39:35


Post by: Mozzamanx


 Sidstyler wrote:
So even when GW turns its Sauron-esque, all-seeing eye at you, from betwixt its pointed ivory towers, it can sometimes end up being worse than if they had continued to look the other way.


Don't you worry there, CSM have already had their time in the sun. We get a nice reminder every time a complaint is levelled against the book, as it is swiftly buried under a tide of "You just want 3.5 back, have some more T5 Obliterators and Infiltrating Sirens you WAAC pig".
I find it curious that the 'chaotic' elements of the book are actually alright, for the most part. Obliterators, Zombies, Heldrakes, Plagues and Daemon Princes are well documented. Even the 'Fiends aren't that bad really. Of course there are plenty of chaotic bits wallowing at the bottom (Sons, Mutilators, Possessed) but for the most part, the backbone of the book is actually uniquely Chaos. You won't see the tournament-toppers starting with Havocs and Rhinos.

As always, I think it's simply that they don't quite know what to do with the army and so it is left in a state of limbo where hundreds of themes are lightly touched upon, and units get a bit of a nod without any distinct flavour of their own. Chaos could make a fast assault list, but then it also needs to bring firepower for the Iron Warriors. It needs to do a daemonic nasties list for the 'Bearers, and also reflect Huron's turncoats. It tries to tick too many boxes, cannot complete all of them in the space it was allowed, and so ends up representing nothing. It is the generic smear of Chaos, from a distance it looks alright but up close, you can see where the cracks have been bodged over with imagination and willing ignorance.

While Heldrakes, Zombies and the Black Mace exist in their current state they will always have a place, even if it's gimmicky or as Allies. But I do hate the current state of them and would love some fresh ideas pumped into them to make them distinct as an army. It's all well and good saying that 40k Marines are not the 30k Legions, so give us an identity to latch onto and a clear direction for the army that cannot be better-replicated by another book.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:43:39


Post by: Martel732


 Ailaros wrote:
Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.



You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 20:43:42


Post by: GimlisonofGloin


I think the power of CSM lies within the dual Foc. Consider that that things are good need to be multiplied. My list below has only lost 5 games since the book dropped and I play against a variety of opponents in a semi-competitive environment.

The key is to rush the enemy with as much of your fast and hard hitting units as possible. Make them choose what to shoot and if it dies you will still have the other to take its place.

Lord - MoK, Jugger, AoBF, SoC, Votlw, GoM - 185
Sorcerer - ML3, bike, SoC, Spell Familiar, GoM - 180
10 cultists - 50
10 cultists - 50
10 cultists - 50
14 cultists - flamer - 71
Heldrake - flamer - 170
Heldrake - flamer - 170
Heldrake - flamer - 170
5 Spawn - MoN - 180
5 Spawn - 150
Mauler Fiend - Tendrils - 135
Mauler Fiend - Tendrils - 135
2 Oblits - MoN - 152
2 Oblits - MoN - 152

TOTAL = 2000

The idea is that everything is in your face by T2 and it really screws with target priority. Oblits will be deep striking while the 10 man cultists sit in reserve and claim objectives late in game. The 14 man cultists will start on the board to help make the numbers more balanced and also act as a meat shield if its purge the alien.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 21:02:28


Post by: Exergy


 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, CSM suck right now.
Cultists are nice,

Cultists are nice, 5ppm with an autogun/lasgun. Consripts are 3ppm and suffer from worse bs, but then they have cheaper ways to become fearless, carry frag grenades and if I am correct have a better armor save.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 21:06:05


Post by: Nuln_Oil


Martel732 wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.



You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.


This!


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 21:06:36


Post by: Exergy


 Accolade wrote:
I feel Chaos forces are always doomed to a degree of irrelevance due to their being a polar opposite of Imperial forces, which receive constant attention, even more so now with the advent of mini-codices.

Imperial Guard, Imperial Knights, Sisters of Battle (even in their tiny digital release), Space Marines, Inquisition, etc. Chaos is seen as the main enemy of the Imperium, and their forces lack the volume of releases that Imperial ones do, with fosters that sense of irrelevancy.


Why IG, now AM are not BB with CSM always puzzled me. It would fix so many of CSM problems.

Ally with Daemons seems to be the only real option.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 21:37:51


Post by: Brother Lem


As a Tau player who currently fields a CC CSM army I am finding them fun to play even in a competitive environment. I completely understand the OP comments. They cost a lot, they can be tabled easily but if you play right you can avoid some of the pitfalls.

I don't run a Heldrake. I control the board with hoards of cultist. These run the board by spamming my opponents shootiest units and holding them for at least a turn or two while i move my more average shooting units into a good position.

Yes it's a shooty edition but CSM have huge numbers cheaply in Cultist. Let your enemy mow down a whole unit of cultists, big whoop! They are pretty much pointless in cost and can control objectives and they distract most players from what your small marine units are doing....Human shield those little buggers!!!

Most of the time i play hardcore SM opponents who are tank and heavy weapon heavy.

Not disagreeing with the post so much as saying it is a game of tactics, and every army has a chance to take a victory just this edition it's a tad harder for us!!!!


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/14 21:42:30


Post by: Dakkamite


Wait a month, see if that assault friendly 7th edition comes out, and *then* sell your CSM and never look back


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 01:12:45


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


The CSM codex is a failure in every way possible. It is not competitive in the slightest, in fact I'd say it is the second worst army in the game only edging out Blood Angels. It cannot be played In a rewarding and fun way as it is a predictable and boring army to play and lacks any synergy and makes me want to tear my hair out when I make a list. And, it cannot be played in a fluffy way unless you want to play Abaddon and random renegades or KhĆ¢rn/Ahriman/Typhus/Lucius and his band of foots sloggers. The worst part is how awesome the CSM fluff is which keeps me from ditching the army even though I know it's just going to frustrate me.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 01:37:21


Post by: -Loki-


 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.



You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.


This!


But you'd obviously not have a problem if it was Eldar having trouble tabling your Chaos though, right?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 02:04:18


Post by: poppa G


Sad. I used to be intimidated by these guys.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 02:04:36


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 -Loki- wrote:
 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.



You can't control the board when you are tabled. 40k IS a game where Eldar can table CSM. So I'm not seeing where you are going with this.


This!


But you'd obviously not have a problem if it was Eldar having trouble tabling your Chaos though, right?


I think most people would not, it shouldn't be an easy thing to table someone...


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 02:29:13


Post by: mk2



Typhus, Zombies, Obliterators , Heldrakes and Plague Marines are some of the best and most competitive units in the entire game of 40K.

Is there a lot of useless crap in the book? Yes but the units mentioned above are a top tier army .


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 02:41:17


Post by: GoliothOnline


As a CSM + Daemons Player myself, after starting Daemons, I simply find they do everything better than CSM.

My CSM are horrendously over priced, weak in general and simply cannot perform as well as my Daemons in terms of Assault. In terms of shooti? Who cares? Daemons have the means to GET into CC through sheer speed of units. That hilarious attempt from GW to write up the Crimson Slaughter dex for Possessed and add "Moves like beasts" Cmon FFS, that should be staple on the over priced bugger from the get go. And no power weapons? Random chance to get AP3 or rending? Yeah... No... The dex was as well thought out as removing those 57 cent parts from General Motors vehicles.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 02:49:17


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


I feel that CSM and Tyranids both suffer from a codex that is written without clear intent or purpose. Both codices seem to be written from the perspective of throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks. Hey, they aren't bad armies! Look at the Heldrake and Hive Crone! Ignore the Mutilators and Pyrovores that have absolutely no thought thrown into how they are supposed to work on the table.

On top of that the Space Marine stat line no longer cuts it but they still get charged a premium for it. T4 3+ used to mean something and was rather survivable, now though their is an abundance of armor ignoring weapons that make armies rely on invulnerable saves and if you can't bring massed invul saves you may as well leave the unit on the shelf.

Last both of these armies lack Divination, it has been touched on but seriously, how many of the top armies and top list rely on Divination? How much of a force multiplier is Divination that everyone who can take it does take it. Everyone tries to hammer it in with allies or just taking an inquisitor. I think the access to Divination defines an armies ability to compete more than anything else.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 03:52:04


Post by: Jayden63


The fact that CSM can't get divination isn't the problem. Its that divination itself is the problem.

Its one of those mistakes GW makes where they don't foresee the power of a rule/ability, and as such don't give it out to everyone equally. Then it gets spammed, and you suddenly hear the cries of the "have nots", and its is somewhat justifiable. When all races don't have access to all the BB powers immediately brings bias into the game, regardless of fluff or not.

My CSM army is still great fun and not very predictable in that Its a mix of shooty and assaulty. However, I can see how some builds would have issues in the current rules sets. But I agree with others, its not so much a CSM issue as its a 6th edition core rules issue.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 04:08:19


Post by: MajorWesJanson


CSM and Eldar are both good examples of why Phil Kelly is not as good a codex writer as many people seem to think. Internal balance is bad, with the most popular (best) options in Codex CSM arecultists, cheap sorcerers, nurgle aligned marines, and heldrakes. Eldar has problems with balance (and overpowered synergy with the DE codex) with the Howling Banshees useless and Wave serpeants death machines. Meanwhile, the most flexable and fluffiest mechanic, Battle Focus, came from Mat Ward.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 04:20:06


Post by: ClockworkZion


 MajorWesJanson wrote:
CSM and Eldar are both good examples of why Phil Kelly is not as good a codex writer as many people seem to think. Internal balance is bad, with the most popular (best) options in Codex CSM arecultists, cheap sorcerers, nurgle aligned marines, and heldrakes. Eldar has problems with balance (and overpowered synergy with the DE codex) with the Howling Banshees useless and Wave serpeants death machines. Meanwhile, the most flexable and fluffiest mechanic, Battle Focus, came from Mat Ward.

Kelly's fluff has always been his strong point, and even that seems a bit short in these books. I respect the guy (actually as strange as it sounds I respect all of the devs mostly because they've got a job I dream of having someday..maybe....after I move to England and stalk Kirby while selling my blood, plasma and at least one kidney for food) but he's been coming up a bit short as of late. I think this release schedule is doing bad things to the quality we're used to honestly..


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 09:53:36


Post by: koooaei


Csm codex ain't really bad. Most units are fine. Csm themselves, bikes, melta-drop termies or raptors, maulerfiends, predators, apostles. And there are lots of really good units like spawns, oblits, lords and sorcs, drakes, plague marines, cultists. And as every codex, there are underpowered units like a worse version of a spiky landraider, devastators, overpriced forgefiend and defiler spiky master of the forge (however, i see his curse shutting down all that punishers for good). And purely worseless due to being horifically overpriced and having nothing to do units like possessed and warp talons.

Csm can still put strong lists and have tools that noone else can provide. Like Nurgle spawns + sorc/lord or best-scoring-ever - zombies.

Not being constantly updated like their loyalist's counterpart, csm are still a solid army. Yep, it's gona be hard to deal with tau, eldar or daemons but hey, everyone has problems vs them. It's not csm's fault that 'top-tier' armies have such poor ballance. Compare them to more ballanced armies and you'll see that they're totally fine.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 12:20:46


Post by: L0rdF1end


Oh my days...this thread.

Chaos still have good units and can still be a threat to top tier lists.

What it does have is limited and fleshing out an entire army from the CSM codex alone is difficult.
New ideas help, doing things your opponent didn't predict/expect.

CSM needs allies to be competitive. Daemons help hugely.
The AM release may bring new possibilities and new CSM/AM builds.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 12:27:53


Post by: WarOne


CSM suffers from a lack of armywide buffs that could help them. Instead of removing the negatives from their army, the codex added on charts and abilities that could really hurt you at critical times (forcing challenges, spawn roles, ect.).

Black Legion didn't help, but Crimson Slaughter did. It gave the army a buff (even if Fear isn't really much) and access to tools to make CSM more competitive, even by a smidgen.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 12:40:34


Post by: Nightlord1987


Divination isn't really all that helpful to CSM when you don't have anything really worth dakka-ing up...

Re-roll misses on a cultist blob? Or 8 shots from a Forgefiend? Or those 2 Lascannon shots from your Obliterators?

That's why people were doing slightly better with Invisibility and Belakor.

Also, since Chaos has no real mode of (reliable) transport, maybe they should just be Castled. I've been looking into Fortifications. They even get their own 'Chaos Bastion' model, so that's a big clue there.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 12:40:36


Post by: hobojebus


Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 12:54:18


Post by: rohansoldier


I agree that csm are struggling but they can still put out the hurt on most, even in a semi competitive scene.

They do need some buffs though. I would like to see:

- Legion rules
- Helbrutes given the daemon rule (but no WS/BS reduction - don't even know why thats a rule)
- Generic daemon weapons (upgraded by the models mark)
- Icons no longer able to be sniped out
- Land raider variant exclusive to chaos
- Up mauler and forge fiends to ws/bs 4
- Points drop on possessed and give them power weapons/beasts as standard (or at least options to get it guaranteed)
- Open topped rhino option
- Grenades or daemonic equivalent for warp talons


Thats all I can think of for now.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 13:00:47


Post by: ClockworkZion


hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.
Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.

Even if we hold such cynicism to be true, it's still not enough to get people to buy/play Possessed.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 13:03:16


Post by: UlrikDecado


hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 14:16:51


Post by: herpguy


Every time something new is released the CSM feels more and more like a guinea pig codex. We have absolutely terrible book powers, and being forced to give up a book power if you take a mark is just horrible.

CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

Anybody who says that CSM is not bad either:
1. Does not play CSM
2. Does not play against anything resembling a competitive nature.

No, 20 man blobs of CSM with every upgrade you can put on them is not a good tactic.

Heldrakes are the only amazing thing in the book, but if you run more than 1 of them you will be called TFG 1000x more than the guy who brings 5 wave serpents. The amount of interwebz hate against them and the entire CSM codex is beyond annoying. I had a guy with a Centurion-star with Tigurius complain that my spawn were "too good". I had a complete White Scars spam player complain the black mace is "stupidly underpriced for what it does" and that it's "dumb that plague marines can take 2 special weapons." CSM get the most hate all around.

One of the biggest problems is the lack of army-wide buffs. Look at Abaddon, he can beat up anything short of a Greater Daemon but he is mostly left to the shelf because he doesn't buff his army in some significant way like ALL the SM characters do.

Also look at the fact that we have no good way at all to get troops up the field, and no way to mitigate DS scatter (dimensional key has probably never worked for anybody at all since the codex came out).

Once I started playing Daemons I realize how much they do everything CSM does but BETTER. A 9 pt daemonette is worth a lot more than a 13 point CSM in game terms.

CSM only have hard showings in tournaments because they are reserved to being taken as allies simply for the Heldrake and/or a Black Mace DP. PURE CSM do not have any chance of winning anything significant at all.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 14:27:01


Post by: Kain


 herpguy wrote:


CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

.

Tyranids don't have any access to divinitation, not even through allies.

We in fact, don't get any of BRB tables.

Instead we have access to a single, small, sad little chart with nothing particularly impressive.

Let me feel for you bro, we'll cry together.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 14:41:18


Post by: herpguy


 Kain wrote:
 herpguy wrote:


CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

.

Tyranids don't have any access to divinitation, not even through allies.

We in fact, don't get any of BRB tables.

Instead we have access to a single, small, sad little chart with nothing particularly impressive.

Let me feel for you bro, we'll cry together.


Oops missed that one! Tyranids are the only army I feel is truly in the same boat as CSM (even though in Tyranids defense you can get a power to give 2 units FnP and IWND). DA at least have amazing ally selections.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 14:51:47


Post by: Kain


 herpguy wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 herpguy wrote:


CSM is the only new codex without access to divination (No I do not count $40 DLC as having access to divination), even though one of the named characters literally invented Divination in the Space Marine ranks.

.

Tyranids don't have any access to divinitation, not even through allies.

We in fact, don't get any of BRB tables.

Instead we have access to a single, small, sad little chart with nothing particularly impressive.

Let me feel for you bro, we'll cry together.


Oops missed that one! Tyranids are the only army I feel is truly in the same boat as CSM (even though in Tyranids defense you can get a power to give 2 units FnP and IWND). DA at least have amazing ally selections.

You have to buy regeneration for IWND, Catalyst only gives FNP to the caster and the castee'.

We also need to have a psychic power to do what every Eldar can do for free, and never had divinitation access to begin with (Biomancy which is great, Telepathy which is also great though usually you wanted as much Biomancy as possible because it fit well with the army, and Telekinesis which...ermm...at least it's not pyromancy?) .

And our old beatstick special character has been downgraded to not even being on the top ten best beatsticks in the game with no EW, no invulnerable save rerolling, a fairly meh number of attacks, only one buff and debuff power (which are vastly overshadowed by what others have), a meh Armor save, no way of getting into combat quickly, and if you want him to survive any particularly hefty amount of shooting you need Catalyst, Venomthropes, and three Tyrant guard.

Can't even beat that one Iron Hands/Clan Raukaan chapter master build FFS.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 16:32:04


Post by: Sephyr


With the new Astra Militarum book handing out Divination AND Power of the Machine Spirit out like candy, CSM become even more of a moot point.

Even if supplements address this in the future (making Iron Warriors BB with AM, for instance), it still empties the core book. Soon everyone would be playing "World Eaters but using Iron Warriors rules", which is a sure sign of lazy game design.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 17:02:06


Post by: hobojebus


 UlrikDecado wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?


They should of made possesed worth taking in the first place without having to spend another Ā£30 on a supplement, if possesed were worth taking people would buy them but they are crap no matter how nice the models are.

Same with helbrutes they suck in 6th as they don't live long enough to get into combat so they were not selling, so they release a data slate that makes them good if you shell out Ā£90.

Chaos players are getting bent over and fracked, we have a bad codex and the only way to make them playable is to spend even more money, while tau and eldar players got a working codex from the start.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:03:44


Post by: Kain


hobojebus wrote:
 UlrikDecado wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?


They should of made possesed worth taking in the first place without having to spend another Ā£30 on a supplement, if possesed were worth taking people would buy them but they are crap no matter how nice the models are.

Same with helbrutes they suck in 6th as they don't live long enough to get into combat so they were not selling, so they release a data slate that makes them good if you shell out Ā£90.

Chaos players are getting bent over and fracked, we have a bad codex and the only way to make them playable is to spend even more money, while tau and eldar players got a working codex from the start.

My tyranids and dark angels feel for my chaos space marines.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:20:11


Post by: Nuln_Oil


I don't want a codex that is better than any other codex. What I would like is for there to be some attempt to make the codices balanced. There are some codexes that are way over powered, and those armies keep receiving upgrades via supplements, dataslates and so forth. While there are other armies, such as CSM, Tyranids, Dark Angels, Orks (long ignored), that are simply not getting any good (or even any, for that matter) upgrades.

I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:33:22


Post by: Sephyr


 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.


Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:44:17


Post by: Nuln_Oil


 Sephyr wrote:
 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.


Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.


Too bad I didn't play 3.5, try again


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:48:08


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Nuln_Oil wrote:
 Sephyr wrote:
 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.


Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.


Too bad I didn't play 3.5, try again

I'm just guessing but I think Sephyr was being sarcastic there about you being a "powergaming 3.5 creep".


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:50:36


Post by: Nuln_Oil


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Nuln_Oil wrote:
 Sephyr wrote:
 Nuln_Oil wrote:


I wish the system was more balanced. How fun would it be to go to a tournament where all armies were reasonably represented, where even the armies that were considered bottom tier could win if played properly. What sucks is losing and feeling like it was because of the list.


Can't do, sorry. If you want some reasonable balance and character in your book, you're just one of those powergaming 3.5 creeps and your very thoughts are an insult to nids and DA players everywhere.


Too bad I didn't play 3.5, try again

I'm just guessing but I think Sephyr was being sarcastic there about you being a "powergaming 3.5 creep".


Then that would explain why I didn't understand what he was saying.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 18:53:21


Post by: Mozzamanx


I think it's a joke on the fact that every single CSM thread inevitably descends into 2 parties: The Chaos players on one side asking for Legions, Warbands, Daemons, Veterans, Traitors and everything under the sun, and on the other hand wailing hordes of people apparently suffering PTSD from 3.5 who assume that every request for fun is actually a cleverly-disguised grab at wanting to be the big dog again.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 19:04:25


Post by: Nuln_Oil


Mozzamanx wrote:
I think it's a joke on the fact that every single CSM thread inevitably descends into 2 parties: The Chaos players on one side asking for Legions, Warbands, Daemons, Veterans, Traitors and everything under the sun, and on the other hand wailing hordes of people apparently suffering PTSD from 3.5 who assume that every request for fun is actually a cleverly-disguised grab at wanting to be the big dog again.


What exactly happened in 3.5? I didn't start this game until the beginning of 2013.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 19:09:35


Post by: ClockworkZion


In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 19:11:36


Post by: Mozzamanx


What happened is that 3.5 was the perfect Codex as far as Chaos players were concerned, and a horrific nightmare for everyone else. It had rules for all 9 Legions, it had endless pages of Veteran Skills, Daemonic Gifts and Daemon Weapons to allow a CSM player exactly the kind of list he wanted. It could allow you to take a unit of flying psychic Chosen where everyone carried S5 Power Weapons, and the next day let you play those same Chosen as Infiltrators who could get into assault turn 1.
Unfortunately Games Workshop cannot into balance and there were lots of ways to break the book, so your enemy could be ruined without much say against it. On the other hand, at least it was unpredictable and they'd never be ruined the same way twice.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 19:17:14


Post by: Dozer Blades


 Ailaros wrote:
Nuln_Oil wrote:I understand exactly how assault works. The problem is that when a unit of assault troops costs 200-300 points, and needs a landraider to get across the board, for example, the points used do not add up.

No you don't.

Assault armies work because of they way they take field position away from your opponents, and practice board control and objective management. They work because of the way the apply force concentration over time (and, because CSM is a power-armor army, over space as well). They work because 40k isn't just a game where you throw down minis, see who rolls the highest dice first, and then pack it up and go home.

There are deep and complex issues surrounding why assault armies can get shot up turn 1 and still be worth taking, but your statements show that you don't care about any of this. You just want CSM to suck, and want us all to agree with you. Troll away with your vague and shallow dismissal of an entire codex all you want, but it doesn't make it true that CSM is irrelevant.



I agree 100%. There lots of great things in the CSM codex and they can compete with any other army.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 19:22:24


Post by: UlrikDecado


hobojebus wrote:
 UlrikDecado wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?


They should of made possesed worth taking in the first place without having to spend another Ā£30 on a supplement, if possesed were worth taking people would buy them but they are crap no matter how nice the models are.

Same with helbrutes they suck in 6th as they don't live long enough to get into combat so they were not selling, so they release a data slate that makes them good if you shell out Ā£90.

Chaos players are getting bent over and fracked, we have a bad codex and the only way to make them playable is to spend even more money, while tau and eldar players got a working codex from the start.


So, anything they do is wrong. Old rules - wrong. New (better) rules - wrong. Yeah, I got you. There is no escape. Its wrong.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 19:27:01


Post by: jasper76


I can see my friends respecting a Codex Supplement like Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion (they do!).

Respecting DLC information, that they didn't even know existed before I showed them the printout...not so much.

GW is trying to adopt a post-XBOX 360 video game model to patch up codexes. I do not play 40k against video gamers.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 20:00:02


Post by: techsoldaten


Mmm... I don't think there are any problems with Chaos.

I really can't think of an edition where they did not have some problems. The fact that everyone is making so much of an fuss about them in 6th edition shows you short our memories can be.

I don't personally care about competitive play, but it was a Daemons / CSM force that just won Adepticon. Over Taudar / Space Marine / Necron powerlists. It says something that they were taken as an ally, and there have been other tournaments where someone won with a straight CSM list. And it's not like the straight CSM players were all coming in last.

In terms of friendly matches, CSMs are as serviceable as any other army. I don't know of any other force that is as interesting or gives you as much space to be creative.

But more than that, I think CSMs give you the best chances to catch an opponent unprepared. If you want a CSM powerlist, max out on Heldrakes and plague zombies and let someone try to beat you. If you want a flying circus list, get 2 Daemon Princes and ally with Black Legion for another. If you want to go anti-infantry, get Chosen. If you really want to screw with someone, spend the majority of your points on Abaddon, a Land Raider and 9 chosen. Give them 3 VPs they can score off you, and kill 6 VPs worth of their forces. This really pisses people off when they think they can table you and it just can't be done.

Hard to see this kind of stuff working with any other army. I wish more people would start thinking creatively about CSMs instead of complaining about them on the Interwebs.




Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 20:05:13


Post by: Accolade


 UlrikDecado wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?


Eh, I think that's getting into an odd area. In reality, the rules of the model shouldn't be the determining factor in whether or not to purchase them, but obviously people take that into account so they don't feel like they're investing poorly.

Pricing based on rules creates problems with GW where some units are priced more highly simply because of where they sit in the game. Warhammer Dark Elf wyches are a good example of this- the fact that they also make a rare unit (Sisters of Slaughter) seems to have been a determining factor in their price. Compare wyches to their core counterparts Dreadspears, which are much cheaper even though their kit is customize-able as well.

While I am glad GW has made CSM Possessed more effective, I feel they could have been made that effective when they came out with their core codex.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 20:27:57


Post by: Tycho


Yeah, CSM suck right now. More to do with the core rules than the codex itself in my opinion,


I have heard this a lot recently and I don't understand it. How can you blame the 6th ed rules? Kelly had the 6th ed rules in hand when he wrote the new CSM book and completely ignored them. The problem ISN'T that the 6th ed rules exist. The problem is that he wrote a book that stalwartly refuses to acknowledge that existance. As Vaktahi said, this book would have been AMAZING in 4th ed. As it stands, it was most emphatically not written as a 6th ed book. It has a lot more to do with the the codex itself than with the changes 6 brought about. A lot of units are still priced on a 4th/5th ed paradigm, in an edition where overwatch, random charge and random charge distance exist and you can't assault out of reserves or on the turn you DS we are given a unit that relies on assaulting out of DS and is costed like a 2nd ed Terminator, no reliable assault transports that don't cost an arm and a leg (but still a ton of assault units), etc, etc. Oh, did I mention the fact that since we have no reliable way to prevent scatter that unit that depends on its deep strike is likeliy going to ... well, scatter? I could go on all day with examples like that. Again, since the new rules were not a surprise to anyone (except maybe Phil K) I don't think you can blame the new edition. Blood Angels took a beating because of the new edition, but when your book comes out AFTER the new rules and sucks - well, then the problem lies elsewhere.

On top of all that, this book and the 'nids book are the only ones that actively punish the player for using them. The entire CSM book is just one huge study in missed opportunity imo.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 20:45:48


Post by: Exergy


 Sephyr wrote:
With the new Astra Militarum book handing out Divination AND Power of the Machine Spirit out like candy, CSM become even more of a moot point.

Even if supplements address this in the future (making Iron Warriors BB with AM, for instance), it still empties the core book. Soon everyone would be playing "World Eaters but using Iron Warriors rules", which is a sure sign of lazy game design.


Which is better than right now, "Chaos using Loyalist rules"


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 20:54:35


Post by: Brother Lem


I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 20:59:54


Post by: Kain


 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 21:19:20


Post by: Brother Lem


 Kain wrote:
 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.


Fair enough, cheers haha


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 21:53:05


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


 techsoldaten wrote:
Mmm... I don't think there are any problems with Chaos.

I really can't think of an edition where they did not have some problems. The fact that everyone is making so much of an fuss about them in 6th edition shows you short our memories can be.

I don't personally care about competitive play, but it was a Daemons / CSM force that just won Adepticon. Over Taudar / Space Marine / Necron powerlists. It says something that they were taken as an ally, and there have been other tournaments where someone won with a straight CSM list. And it's not like the straight CSM players were all coming in last.

In terms of friendly matches, CSMs are as serviceable as any other army. I don't know of any other force that is as interesting or gives you as much space to be creative.

But more than that, I think CSMs give you the best chances to catch an opponent unprepared. If you want a CSM powerlist, max out on Heldrakes and plague zombies and let someone try to beat you. If you want a flying circus list, get 2 Daemon Princes and ally with Black Legion for another. If you want to go anti-infantry, get Chosen. If you really want to screw with someone, spend the majority of your points on Abaddon, a Land Raider and 9 chosen. Give them 3 VPs they can score off you, and kill 6 VPs worth of their forces. This really pisses people off when they think they can table you and it just can't be done.

Hard to see this kind of stuff working with any other army. I wish more people would start thinking creatively about CSMs instead of complaining about them on the Interwebs.



That is the problem. The list that won Adepticon had a Sorcerer, 10 cultists and a Heldrake. We want our ENTIRE book to not suck, I could care less about the Heldrake. Hell, if the Heldrake was SD Hellstorm template and the codex was the same I would still complain because the rest of the book is garbage.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 22:03:04


Post by: StarTrotter


 ClockworkZion wrote:
In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.


Wasn't IW really brutal but the real terror was some siren bomb or something? As per 3.5.... It was probably the best and worst chaos codex combined. On one hand, it had ways to play several legions on top of being the last to still have daemons merged with the chaos codex allowing for some cool synergy. On the other hand, it had horrific internal balance even amongst legions where it had one or two that were absolutely broken and had many that were horrifically bad. I'd say it is the best Chaos Codex but I'd also say that such a statement is disappointing to say since it was pretty messy itself.

The only commonality of all the chaos codices is that when it comes to CSM, Tzeentch is a bad choice and Ksons shall always be terrible-subpar


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/15 22:41:57


Post by: Dozer Blades


There was lots of very powerful armies.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/16 00:34:19


Post by: Nightlord1987


A lot of builds wouldn't exist in the 3.5 world... There were so many restrictions that "made" the legion. No marked nurgle bikers, or marked Obliterators. No bolters on MoK units. Etc.





Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/16 00:55:54


Post by: hobojebus


 Accolade wrote:
 UlrikDecado wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.


Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?


Eh, I think that's getting into an odd area. In reality, the rules of the model shouldn't be the determining factor in whether or not to purchase them, but obviously people take that into account so they don't feel like they're investing poorly.

Pricing based on rules creates problems with GW where some units are priced more highly simply because of where they sit in the game. Warhammer Dark Elf wyches are a good example of this- the fact that they also make a rare unit (Sisters of Slaughter) seems to have been a determining factor in their price. Compare wyches to their core counterparts Dreadspears, which are much cheaper even though their kit is customize-able as well.

While I am glad GW has made CSM Possessed more effective, I feel they could have been made that effective when they came out with their core codex.


Sadly models cost way too much not to take rules into account, if you pay Ā£25 for ten blood claws assemble and paint them then find out after all that they suck would you be happy?

Ā£25 buys alot of things so before you spend it on toy soldiers you want to know it's not going to be a waste.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/16 01:10:53


Post by: Jayden63


 ClockworkZion wrote:
In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.


The problem is that Iron Warriors was the perfect army for 3rd edition. You could get away with two five man chaos squads for troops and then load up everything else with obliterators and pie plate throwing tanks. The typical 3.5 Iron warriors list wouldn't survive at all in today's game, as you need to be more conscious of objectives, flyers, and other such things. I myself ran Slannesh and never once even considered taking Siren. My list was a combo of shooty and assaulty and had tons of fluff flavor. I used sacred numbers, and guys with noise weapons.

I'll agree that the codex could be broken, but it also was a gamers dream as it allowed anyone to field exactly what they wanted to. You could make heros or hords. You could go low or middle of the road in model count.

I have many fond memories of that codex and the army I played. I also know that my opponents did too because I never was refused a second game.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/16 19:59:59


Post by: nobody


 StarTrotter wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.


Wasn't IW really brutal but the real terror was some siren bomb or something? As per 3.5.... It was probably the best and worst chaos codex combined. On one hand, it had ways to play several legions on top of being the last to still have daemons merged with the chaos codex allowing for some cool synergy. On the other hand, it had horrific internal balance even amongst legions where it had one or two that were absolutely broken and had many that were horrifically bad. I'd say it is the best Chaos Codex but I'd also say that such a statement is disappointing to say since it was pretty messy itself.

The only commonality of all the chaos codices is that when it comes to CSM, Tzeentch is a bad choice and Ksons shall always be terrible-subpar



Yep, the Siren Bomb was taking a Lord or Daemon Prince, giving them the Sorcerer ability, MoS, and taking 6 minor psychic powers so you'd guarantee having Siren which, when cast, made the model untargetable for shooting or assault (unless your opponent was playing Daemonhunters and actually brought Grey Knights...). You'd also give him a Personal Icon and have a bunch of Daemonettes (or the Daemonette Cav).

Turn 1 you'd run him up the board, and then Turn 2 onward you'd start vomiting daemons that could assault the turn they were summoned into his lines.

I remember Iron Warriors getting a lot of hate for the 9 Obliterator+4 HS army, but they never really tore up the tournament scene like Siren Prince builds did.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 11:42:40


Post by: Grumzimus


Why are people saying we just want our old OP codex back?

Why doesn't everyone get their codex OP and then we can all just go crazy on each other? We'd all be happier, I'd get my drop pods. And Tau wouldn't receive the hate for cowering behind an ADL for 5 turns.

Still love my Chaos, but just feel the love for the game slipping the more juicy codex's that drop that we can't even ally with.

I think that's what's making things worse. Other armies are coming out there that certain armies can take. But Mono Codex lists are going the way of the Squats.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 12:20:42


Post by: Nightlord1987


A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 13:19:32


Post by: nobody


 Grumzimus wrote:
Why are people saying we just want our old OP codex back?

Why doesn't everyone get their codex OP and then we can all just go crazy on each other? We'd all be happier, I'd get my drop pods. And Tau wouldn't receive the hate for cowering behind an ADL for 5 turns.

Still love my Chaos, but just feel the love for the game slipping the more juicy codex's that drop that we can't even ally with.

I think that's what's making things worse. Other armies are coming out there that certain armies can take. But Mono Codex lists are going the way of the Squats.


I'm sure everybody (well, everybody who's codex has gone through enough evolutions) has a "glory days" codex they'd like to go back to. I can't blame them, if I played chaos as my main army I'm sure I'd be wishing for the 3.5 dex coming back too.

But in all honesty the dex wasn't that bad. Ditch the minor powers, the force org shenanigans, add in the new units (maulerfiend etc), and allow allying between legions (assuming of course the ancient enemies rule) and you'd probably be fine. May need to do some points shuffling to reduce some prices though.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 13:40:53


Post by: Makumba


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.


I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 13:48:03


Post by: changerofways


 Nuln_Oil wrote:
 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex was terrible from the day it was printed and relied on wanky FA choices to beat non updated lists. Each passing day makes them more irrelevant.


This pretty much summarizes my feelings on this, unfortunately.


Yeah, I agree.

Tons of upgrades you should never take (ichor blood, combat familiars, GoM, etc)
Tons of units you should never take that they're always trying to buff (helbrutes, possessed, etc)
Too much bolters for ranged weaponry
weak CC units that lack the movement to get killed in CC
Poor number of vehicle options (no drop pods, only 1 type of land raider, etc)

And then Ahriman, lord of the Corvidae, has no access to divination, and has no EW. Thanks GW.


BUT WAIT! Heldrakes and MoN Oblits. Ur good to go.

All doomsaying aside tho, 4 more supplements are supposed to come out this year so GW is trying to make the game more balanced.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 15:10:21


Post by: Deadshot


The CSM Codex was the first Codex of 6th Ed. It was a test run for them. They were shy about doing things, conservative about adding rules and things. DA branched a little more. Daemons moreso. Tau shook things up. Eldar was a small earthquake. Space Marines let things settle down a little with small tremors because they knew it would sell regardless. Escalation was a major earthquake. All these supplements where tremors along the way. IG/AM shakes things up again and we'll see how it goes.

Tyranids...they were a mistake in 6th Ed on GW's part, trying to bring them into line with other codexes when they are "completely alien."


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 15:15:56


Post by: da001


Makumba wrote:
(...)The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

ThatĀ“s funny. I know a lot of fluff about Chaos and never read about that.

Coming to think of it, even the most recent Chaos-related book, the Crimson Slaughter Codex, says: "So it was that Abaddon, the Warmaster of Chaos, had taken notice of the Crimson Slaughter. In the brutal dog-eat-dog existence that is the Eye of Terror, it does not pay to lose sight of rising powers, even for those on top. None could match the size and power of the Chaos Space Marine Legions, and of those the most powerful and well organised was the Black Legion." And the first background material on Chaos (Realm of Chaos, back in 1989) gave us separated lists for the Black Legion, the EmperorĀ“s Children and so on.

So I would say that every single source ever, from 1989 to 2014, has clearly established that the Chaos Legions are alive and kicking. And I donĀ“t get why so many people claim otherwise on the Internet. I think it is just something people keep claiming over and over to somehow justify that CSM were reduced to its minimal expression in 4th edition.


About the current Codex, just look at the CSM lists on tournaments: sorcerer/DP, cultists and heldrakes. Not a single CSM. Even for not-competitive players it is difficult to accept a basic unit that is so much worse than the SM equivalent, for nearly the same price. It kills the fun.

The Codex is an awful work, and a lazy one.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 15:19:11


Post by: ClockworkZion


The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 15:35:18


Post by: MWHistorian


Makumba wrote:


I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

I think everything said here is completely wrong.
I don't understand the trollish take on "there's nothing to do put spam Drakes, so live with it." If you had a point, you need to make it clearer, unless your point is to be a troll, then you did that wonderfully.
As for legions, where in the world did you read that Black Legion was the only Legion? The Word Bearers are still a very powerful legion. Death Guard are still a legion. Iron Warriors are a legion. Alpha legion is a legion; we just don't know where they are. Many of them are the same traitors that rebelled with Horus.

Have you actually read any of the fluff?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 16:01:25


Post by: Exergy


 Kain wrote:
 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.


but loyalist also get grav weapons and multimeltas


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 16:02:11


Post by: Nuln_Oil


Makumba wrote:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.


I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.


This is what I see a lot of, and it's either trolling or complete ignorance. If you read the AM codex, Eldar, Tau (and Farsight, for that matter), Daemons, and Space Marines, and have any real knowledge of what's in the CSM codex, then the only real honest conclusion is that CSM is a terribly written codex. I haven't crunched the numbers, but, for argument's sake, it is safe to say that a 1500 point list in CSM is comparable to a 1000 or 1250 list in most other codices. I won't even go into how terrible our HQ choices are (unless you're willing to spend 200+ points and have the HQ be the center piece of your entire army). And the two books GW released didn't fix the core problems with the book. Virtually every unit (except the heldrake and maybe oblits) is cheaper and/or more powerful in another codex. Our base troops are laughable, our cult troops are way overpriced, elites are almost unusable, and fast and heavy are very predictable. Not to mention the champions of chaos rule, which is the dumbest thing I have ever seen (in close second is the warp storm table).

Also, some of us don't like spamming heldrakes. They are great, but they are somewhat boring and do not contribute to synergy.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 16:02:24


Post by: Kain


 Exergy wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.


but loyalist also get grav weapons and multimeltas

Same reason that 30k and 40k grav weapons work completely differently.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 16:03:55


Post by: Exergy


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.


and Fear to the Bullgruns


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 16:04:11


Post by: Kain


Makumba wrote:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.


I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

I'm sorry but....I have nothing to say...this is...

I'm gonna have to bring out the picture.



Wow...I mean...

I don't even have anything snarky to say.

I can't really find anything that isn't wrong here.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 18:28:58


Post by: MajorWesJanson


 Kain wrote:
 Exergy wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.


but loyalist also get grav weapons and multimeltas

Same reason that 30k and 40k grav weapons work completely differently.


Well, 40K grav guns have now made an appearance in 30K Mechanicus lists as the graviton imploder.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 20:32:03


Post by: da001


 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).

Then why do they keep writing the opposite? I just quoted the last Chaos-thing, and it is consistent. We have a three book series about the Word Bearers, and the Dominion of Fire (50000 Khorne marines under command of Angron) is still as "canonical" as the Siege of Terra. Just to mention some examples. The Iron Warriors feature heavily in the (utterly disgusting) "Codex: Sentinels of Terra". And so on.

I think perhaps they said it as something of an excuse. People ask these kind of questions and they try to survive the nerd rage. But the books & background material say otherwise.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 20:39:35


Post by: ClockworkZion


 da001 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).

Then why do they keep writing the opposite? I just quoted the last Chaos-thing, and it is consistent. We have a three book series about the Word Bearers, and the Dominion of Fire (50000 Khorne marines under command of Angron) is still as "canonical" as the Siege of Terra. Just to mention some examples. The Iron Warriors feature heavily in the (utterly disgusting) "Codex: Sentinels of Terra". And so on.

I think perhaps they said it as something of an excuse. People ask these kind of questions and they try to survive the nerd rage. But the books & background material say otherwise.

I don't know. Ask Phil Kelly, he's the one who said there were no more Heresy-style Legions anymore, just Warbands (which as I said would be fine if they still had rules to fight like they did in Legions).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 21:17:40


Post by: nobody


There are indeed some canonical shattering of Legions: the World Eaters were shattered into warbands sometime ago in the the Burning of Skalathrax. This is also tied with the breaking up of the Emperor's Children (in some versions of the story).

The fluff seems to indicate that the ideal of the legion as a single unified force is (mostly) gone with individual warbands doing their own thing, sometimes under loose supervision of a more powerful lord or daemon. A powerful enough leader can draw them back together (ie: Abbadon, the daemon primarchs) long enough for a campaign, but as is the nature of chaos they fall apart again eventually. If Angron let it be known to the various Khorne Berserker warbands that he was going to lead a party in the Imperium, and there was going to be plenty of blood spilled, how many of them do you think would turn that party down?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 21:23:59


Post by: da001


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 da001 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).

Then why do they keep writing the opposite? I just quoted the last Chaos-thing, and it is consistent. We have a three book series about the Word Bearers, and the Dominion of Fire (50000 Khorne marines under command of Angron) is still as "canonical" as the Siege of Terra. Just to mention some examples. The Iron Warriors feature heavily in the (utterly disgusting) "Codex: Sentinels of Terra". And so on.

I think perhaps they said it as something of an excuse. People ask these kind of questions and they try to survive the nerd rage. But the books & background material say otherwise.

I don't know. Ask Phil Kelly, he's the one who said there were no more Heresy-style Legions anymore, just Warbands (which as I said would be fine if they still had rules to fight like they did in Legions).

But why? Did a Chaos player steal KellyĀ“s girlfriend when he was young?

Since mere mortal words cannot properly express my frustration, I am using this to express my feelings on the matter (look at it while asking yourself: why? why? why?):
Spoiler:

I am going to completely ignore Mr KellyĀ“s opinion on the matter from know on. There is a lot of stuff about Legions in 40k anyway.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 21:25:29


Post by: ChazSexington


 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Hi everyone, greetings from a loyal CSM player.


Made me giggle!

I've recently returned and I picked CSM without even looking at the Codex; I'm a fluffy player who's the opposite of a Heldrake-spamming WAAC player. I wanted to play Alpha Legion, so I'm gonna field Cultists, Havocs and CSM. I'm aware I'm gonna get pounded most games, but as long as I play against guys who, like me, only want a fun game, it should be exactly that! Alternatively, I'll just have to only play against orks or 'nids.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Oh my days...this thread.

Chaos still have good units and can still be a threat to top tier lists.

[...]

CSM needs allies to be competitive. Daemons help hugely.



Uuuuuh.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 22:06:58


Post by: Ging3rDw4rf


I play csm and enjoy my Nurgle hoarde win or lose... If you don't like then don't play them simple!


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 22:10:31


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Look at it from the bright side, at least you've been relevant some time after 2004.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 23:06:19


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 da001 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).

Then why do they keep writing the opposite? I just quoted the last Chaos-thing, and it is consistent. We have a three book series about the Word Bearers, and the Dominion of Fire (50000 Khorne marines under command of Angron) is still as "canonical" as the Siege of Terra. Just to mention some examples. The Iron Warriors feature heavily in the (utterly disgusting) "Codex: Sentinels of Terra". And so on.

I think perhaps they said it as something of an excuse. People ask these kind of questions and they try to survive the nerd rage. But the books & background material say otherwise.

I don't know. Ask Phil Kelly, he's the one who said there were no more Heresy-style Legions anymore, just Warbands (which as I said would be fine if they still had rules to fight like they did in Legions).


Every other codex writer seems to write differently, every other black library seems to disagree..

It's just those they seem to pick to make the codex itself seem to hate chaos.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 23:13:52


Post by: Kain


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 da001 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).

Then why do they keep writing the opposite? I just quoted the last Chaos-thing, and it is consistent. We have a three book series about the Word Bearers, and the Dominion of Fire (50000 Khorne marines under command of Angron) is still as "canonical" as the Siege of Terra. Just to mention some examples. The Iron Warriors feature heavily in the (utterly disgusting) "Codex: Sentinels of Terra". And so on.

I think perhaps they said it as something of an excuse. People ask these kind of questions and they try to survive the nerd rage. But the books & background material say otherwise.

I don't know. Ask Phil Kelly, he's the one who said there were no more Heresy-style Legions anymore, just Warbands (which as I said would be fine if they still had rules to fight like they did in Legions).


Every other codex writer seems to write differently, every other black library seems to disagree..

It's just those they seem to pick to make the codex itself seem to hate chaos.

Kelly would have probably much rather have preferred to work on the Tyranid codex (he's an admitted fanboy) rather than the CSMs.

Not sure if any of the design team plays the Chaos Space Marines.

I know Cruddace seems to be biased towards Imperial armies, Ward's perhaps a bit overeager and is mostly into Crons and Power armor armies (and seems to have picked up the Eldar), Kelly prefers Eldar of both stripes, daemons, and Tyranids, and I have no idea what Vetock's into.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 23:24:08


Post by: Ashiraya


Vetock is a die-hard Ork player.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 23:26:57


Post by: Kain


 Ashiraya wrote:
Vetock is a die-hard Ork player.

If he makes the next Ork book...

...I think we may see a new terror that makes the terror of fortuned/guided Triptides seem paltry.

There will be a new darkness, and it will be green and talks funny.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/17 23:50:02


Post by: Sephyr


 Ging3rDw4rf wrote:
I play csm and enjoy my Nurgle hoarde win or lose... If you don't like then don't play them simple!


This is not valid when they change what you play. Or when you want to play something close to the books and fluff you read but cannot because the books don't allow it.

As for the "Kelly says no legions" thing, I wonder if it's not being taken out of context. Does he think are those nifty icons with description of war doctrine and philosophy in the book he wrote? Does he really think that two warbands that both sprang from World Eaters companies have less in common among themselves than they do with the Black Legion? Or that there is any better, fluffier way to group chaos for purposes of both lore and rules?

Hell, they have a full supplement for a single company of Imperial Fists because they come from he same tribe. That's like Flame s of war releasing a full book just to detail a company because it's from Peoria and thus gets bonuses to cow-tipping.

Night Lords, World Eater and Iron Warriors sprang from the gene-goo and ideas of radically different demigods. They definitely SHOULD play different than each other and have different options. I guess that is reserved for, say, forces who all swore to organize themselves according to a single book of doctrines, the Codex Astartes.

Most of all, it's the thinking behind it that boggles my mind. Most other companies are happy to bring in more variety: it means more foundations for products, more chances to find a niche that will bring customers, etc. Infinity is creating new aspects and branches of their factions all the time. If tomorrow they posted "Guys, we've been thinking, Military Orders and Shock Troops of Acontecimento are just the same thing. Deal with it", they'd lose out on tons of cash and even more player goodwill.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 18:19:38


Post by: Lockark


 GimlisonofGloin wrote:
I think the power of CSM lies within the dual Foc. Consider that that things are good need to be multiplied. My list below has only lost 5 games since the book dropped and I play against a variety of opponents in a semi-competitive environment.

The key is to rush the enemy with as much of your fast and hard hitting units as possible. Make them choose what to shoot and if it dies you will still have the other to take its place.

Lord - MoK, Jugger, AoBF, SoC, Votlw, GoM - 185
Sorcerer - ML3, bike, SoC, Spell Familiar, GoM - 180
10 cultists - 50
10 cultists - 50
10 cultists - 50
14 cultists - flamer - 71
Heldrake - flamer - 170
Heldrake - flamer - 170
Heldrake - flamer - 170
5 Spawn - MoN - 180
5 Spawn - 150
Mauler Fiend - Tendrils - 135
Mauler Fiend - Tendrils - 135
2 Oblits - MoN - 152
2 Oblits - MoN - 152

TOTAL = 2000

The idea is that everything is in your face by T2 and it really screws with target priority. Oblits will be deep striking while the 10 man cultists sit in reserve and claim objectives late in game. The 14 man cultists will start on the board to help make the numbers more balanced and also act as a meat shield if its purge the alien.


I'm not trying to pick you out, but you just pointed out the issue with the CSM book. The only CSM in that whole army is the lord!

Everything eals is bassicly Deamon enginies and cultists! lol


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 19:12:44


Post by: da001


^And this, ladys and gentlemen, is why the Codex is a fail, and why there is a feeling that CSM are "irrelevant".

All the "classic" units have been so badly mistreated that most lists do not include a single one of them. So you have Chaos Space Marines without a single Chaos Space Marine. It is even more obvious in tournament lists. It is easy to find many "CSM" lists with cultists, heldrakes and a DP. Perhaps a Sorcerer or a Lord if you want to go cheap.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 19:16:30


Post by: ClockworkZion


I think that a CSM arm doesn't -need- to be just CSM to be a CSM army (a small unit of Word Bearers and a LOT of cultists and some Daemon Engines is really fluffy as would Cultists, small number of CSM and some regular vehicles (like Predators and Rhinos) for Alpha Legion), but the fact that people choose to ignore CSM (or just got straight Nurgle) on everything for their competetive builds is the issue.

The issue isn't that there are lists that don't use a lot of Chaos Marines, the issue is that there are a lot of lists that don't feel like they have the crunch when you play CSM and that's not good.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 20:58:18


Post by: Squigsquasher


As a diehard casual/fluff player who is building a mechanized mono-Slaanesh Noise Marine force, I don't mind the codex. It's kinda underpowered, and it does have some crappy choices (*cough* Mutilators) but overall it's a fairly well balanced book with some good options.

I think to be honest, the big problem CSM (and 40K as a whole) has is the top-tier armies like Eldar and Tau. If they weren't so monstrously powerful then i think the game would work a lot better, Even the weakest 6th ed Codex (Tyranids) is fairly balanced when compared to the other low-mid tier codices (so most of them). It's just against Uber-tier armies that they flounder- and to be honest, everybody does.

My solution is just to play friendly games with special scenarios and house rules. But then I will confess I've never seen the attraction of the competitive gaming/tournament scene- to me, the joy of the game is the variety and narrative that home games can bring, which I suspect is what GW were trying to achieve with 6th edition (albeit not hugely successfully).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 21:09:12


Post by: da001


For me the worst part of the Codex, not counting the fluff, is the wide breach between Chaos units and their LoyalistĀ“s counterparts. I play both Marines and Chaos Marines and playing a "mirror-match" is nearly impossible.

Chaos find itself completely outclassed unless you use specific units, the heldrake being the obvious one.

By the way it is even worse if you play Sisters. A 12 point Sister is something of a joke against a 14 point Marine. You learn to expect nothing from your basic units, and thatĀ“s bad for enjoying the army.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 22:29:02


Post by: Makumba


But why? Did a Chaos player steal KellyĀ“s girlfriend when he was young?

His eldar cirucus list was beaten a few times , by a Emperors Children syren build a lot in 4th and since then he hates chaos . Since then he was waiting to nerf their fluff and make it sure that what ever chaos has only helps his eldar armies , by removing bad match ups from the meta game , and besides that losing to eldar every time. Or at least that is what people that played chaos told here after codex eldar arrived.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 22:38:25


Post by: ClockworkZion


Makumba wrote:
But why? Did a Chaos player steal KellyĀ“s girlfriend when he was young?

His eldar cirucus list was beaten a few times , by a Emperors Children syren build a lot in 4th and since then he hates chaos . Since then he was waiting to nerf their fluff and make it sure that what ever chaos has only helps his eldar armies , by removing bad match ups from the meta game , and besides that losing to eldar every time. Or at least that is what people that played chaos told here after codex eldar arrived.

Sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory honestly.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 22:43:18


Post by: Makumba


But his eldar were beaten by circus lists back in the days when he was still playing tournaments.He mever won a game against them .

Maybe that is why he dislikes them . There has to be an anwser why he makes eldar , which he plays a lot, always good , while other factions he writes are randomly bad or good.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 22:59:02


Post by: ClockworkZion


Makumba wrote:
But his eldar were beaten by circus lists back in the days when he was still playing tournaments.He mever won a game against them .

Maybe that is why he dislikes them . There has to be an anwser why he makes eldar , which he plays a lot, always good , while other factions he writes are randomly bad or good.
If he hates CSM so much then why does Kharn and a Squad of Chosen from the DV box on his desk? (yes I realize I'm in the US, and he's not but this is still something I'm aware of thanks to the magic of the internet and correspondence in relation to a thick packet of stuff I sent him regarding Sisters)

I think the bigger issue is an internal one where the studio knows they can't just remake the same exact stuff as the regular Marines but they don't know how to take it all the way out there and really get things going.

And no, you're not likely going to see drop pods in the CSM codex, or Dreadclaws. Look at what they just did to the FW stuff they were borrowing for the IG codex for instance: it's gone. Things have changed (again) and they won't be doing that again from the sounds of things.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 23:17:56


Post by: da001


It may sound as a conspiracy theory, but Makumba is probably right.

To further elaborate:
1) The Studio is not concerned with balance. They do as they please in this regard.
2) The Studio is no longer concerned with the background. This is sad but I think it cannot be argued anymore. I am not talking about major changes, but about a lack of caring about the "details" of a faction. Perturabo switching from Chaos Undivided to a Nurgle Sorcerer, stuff like that.
3) Personal bias is the most logical explanation for most of the changes. Just like lazyness is the reason for the 90% copy-paste. And the "Chapterhouse" thing is probably the reason behind taking away units and the general lack of variety.

Another good example is WardĀ“s Necrons vs WardĀ“s Sisters. In general, if the author likes the army, it gets more "power". If he doesnĀ“t, the final product is rushed to market, lacking coherence, viable options, and detail, spiced with countless minor retcons and over-all weak units save the occasional must-buy new model.

The solution would be to find someone who likes ALL the armies. (On a second thought, this is a biased "solution", since I like all the armies)


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 23:19:27


Post by: ClockworkZion


 da001 wrote:
It may sound as a conspiracy theory, but Makumba is probably right.

To further elaborate:
1) The Studio is not concerned with balance. They do as they please in this regard.
2) The Studio is no longer concerned with the background. This is sad but I think it cannot be argued anymore. I am not talking about major changes, but about a lack of caring about the "details" of a faction. Perturabo switching from Chaos Undivided to a Nurgle Sorcerer, stuff like that.
3) Personal bias is the most logical explanation for most of the changes. Just like lazyness is the reason for the 90% copy-paste. And the "Chapterhouse" thing is probably the reason behind taking away units and the general lack of variety.

Another good example is WardĀ“s Necrons vs WardĀ“s Sisters. In general, if the author likes the army, it gets more "power". If he doesnĀ“t, the final product is rushed to market, lacking coherence, viable options, and detail, spiced with countless minor retcons and over-all weak units save the occasional must-buy new model.

The solution would be to find someone who likes ALL the armies. (On a second thought, this is a biased "solution", since I like all the armies)

Cruddace did the Crunch on the Sisters, Ward did the fluff (which was the GOOD part of the WD Codex).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/20 23:58:39


Post by: Makumba


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Makumba wrote:
But his eldar were beaten by circus lists back in the days when he was still playing tournaments.He mever won a game against them .

Maybe that is why he dislikes them . There has to be an anwser why he makes eldar , which he plays a lot, always good , while other factions he writes are randomly bad or good.
If he hates CSM so much then why does Kharn and a Squad of Chosen from the DV box on his desk? (yes I realize I'm in the US, and he's not but this is still something I'm aware of thanks to the magic of the internet and correspondence in relation to a thick packet of stuff I sent him regarding Sisters)

I think the bigger issue is an internal one where the studio knows they can't just remake the same exact stuff as the regular Marines but they don't know how to take it all the way out there and really get things going.

And no, you're not likely going to see drop pods in the CSM codex, or Dreadclaws. Look at what they just did to the FW stuff they were borrowing for the IG codex for instance: it's gone. Things have changed (again) and they won't be doing that again from the sounds of things.

Because he can get the models cheap or for free ? What he always played was eldar , they are his army. I don't think he made chaos bad because he hate them , he probably doesn't care for them much . He makes random codex just like all the other GW writers , as long as they are not eldar. When he writes an eldar codex it is always too good for the edition it is in , offten too good for the next edition too.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 00:53:48


Post by: ZebioLizard2



2) The Studio is no longer concerned with the background. This is sad but I think it cannot be argued anymore. I am not talking about major changes, but about a lack of caring about the "details" of a faction. Perturabo switching from Chaos Undivided to a Nurgle Sorcerer, stuff like that.


Actually that's not how it worked, what Perturabo did was a ritual to call upon Nurgle's 'blessing' upon a planet, which IS separate from basic sorcerer/psyker abilities as anyone can call upon and do ritualistic things to call daemon powers from the warp.

Plus after the whole thing alot of the daemon primarchs became hypocrites anyways, remember Mortrarian became a Tyrant in the end like he hated, and one of the theme's of chaos is basically 'You forget your purpose turning towards the powers of Chaos.'

So I'm not going to mind something like that, unless he becomes marked by nurgle and starts flinging psyker spells everywhere.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 01:12:54


Post by: BlaxicanX


I wonder why people keep talking about Kelly's bias as if he made 6E Eldar good. He didn't. The fluff sections in 6E Eldar are some of the absolute worst I've seen of the codices (matches pretty close with 4E CSM), and the only new thing he brought to the table crunch-wise is the Wraithknight and the Wave Serpent. The Eldar's army-wide move-shoot-move ability was created by Ward, bladestorm was created by Ward and the points reductions across the board is standard for 6E codices. So, meh.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 01:31:08


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder why people keep talking about Kelly's bias as if he made 6E Eldar good. He didn't. The fluff sections in 6E Eldar are some of the absolute worst I've seen of the codices (matches pretty close with 4E CSM), and the only new thing he brought to the table crunch-wise is the Wraithknight and the Wave Serpent. The Eldar's army-wide move-shoot-move ability was created by Ward, bladestorm was created by Ward and the points reductions across the board is standard for 6E codices. So, meh.



It's consistent with his 4th edition eldar codex, where Falcon spam was horrifically OP.

So it's not like I was surprised to see a different skimmer OP.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 01:38:35


Post by: BlaxicanX


Yah, I've heard many a tale about the tri-falcon days of horror.

I'm almost inclined to download a 4E rulebook and take a gander at the 4E CWE codex just to see what the hype was about (I jumped into 40K halfway through 5th).

Because falcons sure as hell weren't badass in 5E.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 01:45:47


Post by: Jancoran


Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 01:54:07


Post by: BlaxicanX


I feel that way about my all-kroot army.

People are like "man, a kroot army isn't strong" and I just laugh because I'm 9-1 with my kroot-spam army and I've faced Screamerstar, Seer Council, Ovesa-star, scythe-spam, pretty much everything and have come out on top.

If you can't win with kroot spam, my advice is to find the cheese.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 02:13:44


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 02:17:42


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

Of what? His army?

Seriously now, "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't work for -everything- you know.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 02:24:11


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

Of what? His army?

Seriously now, "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't work for -everything- you know.


Battle Reports have pics


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 02:30:27


Post by: ClockworkZion


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.

Of what? His army?

Seriously now, "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't work for -everything- you know.


Battle Reports have pics

And can be staged/faked.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 02:48:31


Post by: Jayden63


No matter how bad anyone thinks 6th ed. Chaos is, you have to agree its tons better than 4th ed. Chaos.

I think the book was a typical Kelly book. Some good stuff, some not so good stuff. And I'll agree that its no where near as powerful as Eldar and Tau turned out to be. But put any Chaos list up against anything not Eldar or Tau and I think you have a good even fight on your hands.

There is good stuff in the codex, its not an autowin, but it doesn't auto loose to much either.

Yeah, I don't run many CSM units as I play Emperor's Children and love the Noise Marine units. But there is something to be said for having a unit with twin melta guns running around in a rhino.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 03:24:46


Post by: BlaxicanX


The only reason 6E Chaos is better than 4E Chaos is because of the Heldrake. Otherwise its top build is almost exactly the same build as it was in the prior 'dex.

That said, Chosen actually got worse and I shan't forgive Kelly for that.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 03:35:10


Post by: Jayden63


 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only reason 6E Chaos is better than 4E Chaos is because of the Heldrake. Otherwise its top build is almost exactly the same build as it was in the prior 'dex.

That said, Chosen actually got worse and I shan't forgive Kelly for that.


Thats a bit shallow thinking. I completely shelved my Chaos for all of 4th edition. This edition at least saw them coming back out to play and doing well enough to keep them in contention for which army to I play from one game to the next.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 03:39:33


Post by: BlaxicanX


Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 03:45:10


Post by: Martel732


 da001 wrote:
For me the worst part of the Codex, not counting the fluff, is the wide breach between Chaos units and their LoyalistĀ“s counterparts. I play both Marines and Chaos Marines and playing a "mirror-match" is nearly impossible.

Chaos find itself completely outclassed unless you use specific units, the heldrake being the obvious one.

By the way it is even worse if you play Sisters. A 12 point Sister is something of a joke against a 14 point Marine. You learn to expect nothing from your basic units, and thatĀ“s bad for enjoying the army.


And a 14 pt marine is its own joke.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 03:53:43


Post by: Jayden63


Martel732 wrote:
 da001 wrote:
For me the worst part of the Codex, not counting the fluff, is the wide breach between Chaos units and their LoyalistĀ“s counterparts. I play both Marines and Chaos Marines and playing a "mirror-match" is nearly impossible.

Chaos find itself completely outclassed unless you use specific units, the heldrake being the obvious one.

By the way it is even worse if you play Sisters. A 12 point Sister is something of a joke against a 14 point Marine. You learn to expect nothing from your basic units, and thatĀ“s bad for enjoying the army.


And a 14 pt marine is its own joke.


The entire point system is a joke. GW has hamstrung themselves by continually lowering point costs. If the basic marine, if that's the benchmark were using, was 25 points and everything was pointed up/down from there, things would work out better as you would have more wiggle room for when a unit gains and or looses abilities. But as it is the difference between a 9 point model and 14 point model is really not that much, but the stat difference can be huge as we all know.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 04:01:51


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 04:21:53


Post by: Martel732


 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.


You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 04:27:46


Post by: quickfuze


Martel732 wrote:
 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.


You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?


Your joking right? Sisters are far and above better than CSM.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 04:29:52


Post by: Martel732


No, no that was a legit question. I don't really understand the dynamics in the mid-low tiers that well. I know BA are the worst, and then there's a bunch of armies I might be able to beat, and then there's Tau/Eldar/Gravstar marines/Daemons.

If you Sisters are better than CSM, I'm not gonna argue as I don't 100% the matchup there. They are both lists than don't auto-table my BA. That's really what I know.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 04:40:51


Post by: Lockark


Martel732 wrote:
No, no that was a legit question. I don't really understand the dynamics in the mid-low tiers that well. I know BA are the worst, and then there's a bunch of armies I might be able to beat, and then there's Tau/Eldar/Gravstar marines/Daemons.

If you Sisters are better than CSM, I'm not gonna argue as I don't 100% the matchup there. They are both lists than don't auto-table my BA. That's really what I know.


The issue is that CSM wouldn't auto table you if it wasn't for the helldrake.

Playing agiest the CSM with and with-out the helldrake is night and day.


The perfect compative CSM list is:

DP, Cultists, helldrakes, and Forgefiend.

You don't even take any actual CSM units, because they are all garbage. Any competive CSM list will be a varrient of this. Anyone trying to do a themed list with the current book, will find themselves with a prety gak teir army.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 04:42:58


Post by: ClockworkZion


 quickfuze wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.


You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?


Your joking right? Sisters are far and above better than CSM.

Sisters are better than some CSM armies. The Sisters codex is largely hampered the same way the CSM one is: every list is basically the same, there are serious automatic choices and major duds through out. And Heldrakes can effectively nuke a Sisters army due to having 0 skyfire access in the native codex.

There are days I feel that the 6++ from Shield of Faith is a pity save given because they didn't want to reduce the points costs of Sisters to take the time to address the problems the book has (useless elites for instance).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:05:32


Post by: StarTrotter


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 quickfuze wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sure, but that has no bearing on my point. Chaos might at least be a contender now compared to before, but the dominant list is still the same. That's not shallow thinking, it's just reality. 4th Edition CSM was Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators and Friends. 6E CSM is Codex: Nurgle, Obliterators Heldrakes and Friends. It's almost the exact same list as it was before. The only noticeable difference between Chaos then and Chaos now is the 'Drake, and being able to ally with Daemons, which has helped the codex tremendously.

^This, so much. We aren't complaining about how well the codex can do if you go full mono build, we are complaint about how 80% of the units are mediocre to complete garbage. And if your playing CSM for competitiveness, it's still the second worst army in the game.


You are saying Orks and Sisters are better than CSM?


Your joking right? Sisters are far and above better than CSM.

Sisters are better than some CSM armies. The Sisters codex is largely hampered the same way the CSM one is: every list is basically the same, there are serious automatic choices and major duds through out. And Heldrakes can effectively nuke a Sisters army due to having 0 skyfire access in the native codex.

There are days I feel that the 6++ from Shield of Faith is a pity save given because they didn't want to reduce the points costs of Sisters to take the time to address the problems the book has (useless elites for instance).

You know, when you said this. It made me really pause and remember my Tzeentch CSM army with their marks and Chaos elites in general. Maybe this is why I am always so intrigued with sisters and wish they could just be a bit cheaper or at least a box of them at the shop? But yeah, monobuild basically. Sure, sisters can opt for allying in AA, but that's not really the Sisters themself toting in AA is it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lockark wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, no that was a legit question. I don't really understand the dynamics in the mid-low tiers that well. I know BA are the worst, and then there's a bunch of armies I might be able to beat, and then there's Tau/Eldar/Gravstar marines/Daemons.

If you Sisters are better than CSM, I'm not gonna argue as I don't 100% the matchup there. They are both lists than don't auto-table my BA. That's really what I know.


The issue is that CSM wouldn't auto table you if it wasn't for the helldrake.

Playing agiest the CSM with and with-out the helldrake is night and day.


The perfect compative CSM list is:

DP, Cultists, helldrakes, and Forgefiend.

You don't even take any actual CSM units, because they are all garbage. Any competive CSM list will be a varrient of this. Anyone trying to do a themed list with the current book, will find themselves with a prety gak teir army.


Not even plague Marines?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:16:29


Post by: ClockworkZion


 StarTrotter wrote:

You know, when you said this. It made me really pause and remember my Tzeentch CSM army with their marks and Chaos elites in general. Maybe this is why I am always so intrigued with sisters and wish they could just be a bit cheaper or at least a box of them at the shop? But yeah, monobuild basically. Sure, sisters can opt for allying in AA, but that's not really the Sisters themself toting in AA is it.

Thousand Sons are an army I'd love to play. And really they don't need much to make them better either. 1 Heavy Bolter with AP3 rounds for every 5 models, and Relentless when the Sorc lives. Suddenly it's a mobile firebase that has a threat range of 42".

Of course Divination would be nice too.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:20:38


Post by: BlaxicanX


I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:25:35


Post by: ClockworkZion


 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

If you're doing that you might as well just give the entire squad Stormbolters.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:29:19


Post by: Martel732


Adding more bolters won't help. This game is now about S 6+ mass shooting.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:35:08


Post by: StarTrotter


hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are Ā£30 for five minis.
Random question. Did it even make it worth getting some possessed? I have some because I liked them in concept and bought them long ago but I can never will myself to field them. Did it even really make it worth it to field them? From what I gather, it's still per turn, and now they sacrifice devastation once they get into cc.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:42:34


Post by: BlaxicanX


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

If you're doing that you might as well just give the entire squad Stormbolters.


Stormbolters aren't AP3.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 05:56:37


Post by: ausYenLoWang


 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.


sadly the psycic powers for tzeentch are rubbish, total garbage actually...
SNP... worthless, cant overwatch cant run.. just guff
sould blaze? who even remembers this?
sooo many terrible rules in a super expensive unit..


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 06:25:24


Post by: Grimskul


 BlaxicanX wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think even just making 1KSons' bolters assault 2 and giving them a bit of a price drop would make them better. Not great, but possibly serviceable.

If you're doing that you might as well just give the entire squad Stormbolters.


Stormbolters aren't AP3.


Uh...isn't it inferno bolts wargear that gives the AP3, not the boltgun? So yeah storm bolters, unless someone was being facetious...

Also Tsons' dilemma as a unit really shows that they should have just overhauled the Mark system entirely with a two tier system of Greater Marks and Lesser Marks. Lesser Marks like a Lesser Mark of Tzzentch should just flat out let them re-roll failed armour save of 1. This way Tzzentch marines can actually be survivable against small-arms fire and not get a useless 6+ invuln. save against the vast majority of weapons. Greater Marks of Tzzentch would have the +1 to invuln. save as before AND the lesser mark buff. This makes Tzzentch terminators an actual viable choice versus just taking Nurgle Terminators (since you can essentially re-roll the armour save for the Tzzentch termies while still having the 4++ against stuff that would ignore it). Of course the Greater Marks would be pricier but at least this way you wouldn't have to worry about dud marks.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 09:51:23


Post by: FeindusMaximus


It would be nice if my scary CSM could go into CC and not get run down because they failed a moral check. Chaos icons should either get a LoS roll or can't be sniped out. This would get csm bodies back on the table top. Or give them ATSNKF.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 14:31:20


Post by: GrafWattenburg


Having played CSM for a little while now I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread. Some problems I face when playing and building lists are:

-Troop issues. Cultists are cheap, regular marines are awful. Plague Marines are good and I never tried Noise Marines but they don't seem bad. Part of the problem is lack of mobility. We can't put them in Drop Pods, our only option for moving them faster around is in a first-blood Rhino, and PM/NM are only troops if you include a marked Lord, similar to how you must include Typhus to unlock Zombies.

-Heldrake dependency. Pretty useless against 2+ armour (Riptide..) though.

-A lot of absolutely useless units (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Defiler, etc.)

-Lack of cheesy combos/buffs/special rules. This is in itself probably a good thing, but it's a big disadvantage in the current meta, where taudar and daemons can pull off some crazy special rule combos.

-Poor psychic powers. And I must take one if I mark my psyker? Rubbish (but Weapon Virus would be fun to throw on a Guardsmen blob..)

-Problems taking out Riptides and heavy vehicles. Maybe it's just me, but I really struggle to take out a Riptide. My shooting just isn't good enough, I depend on armour and cover saves, both of which the Riptide can ignore, and if something does get in assault range, there is both supporting fire to Overwatch and a smashing Riptide causing Instant Death to pretty much anything I can throw at it.
I expect there will be more Leman Russes rolling around soon with the new AM codex as well, and unless I get a lucky deep strike with Obliterators, I will struggle with these.

-On the topic of Deep Strike.. This is possibly just my bad luck, but my Obliterators always tend to scatter exactly where they shouldn't scatter. I aim for a clear, open area, but nah, 11-12" right into impassable terrain or enemy units. I really miss some Servo Skull-like thing. Can't I get a Daemonic Beacon or something?

I do like my CSM though and don't want to come off as purely complaining. It is sad that you tend to see CSM as a Heldrake-detachment to Daemons today, but I think the problem lies more with taudar/daemons. I enjoy playing against the majority of 40k armies, and I hope they will be balanced instead of more and more cheese.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 15:38:34


Post by: Martel732


 FeindusMaximus wrote:
It would be nice if my scary CSM could go into CC and not get run down because they failed a moral check. Chaos icons should either get a LoS roll or can't be sniped out. This would get csm bodies back on the table top. Or give them ATSNKF.


Against good lists, ATSKNF means nothing. Their plan is to kill you with shooting, not beat you in HTH. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF several times and it has never influenced the outcome of the game. Marine squad are being murdered wholesale in the new meta. There are few tests to take.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 15:47:22


Post by: ClockworkZion


ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 15:52:29


Post by: ausYenLoWang


i like noisemarines in a gunline... lots of shots going out, blastmasters also good for taking down units in cover at 48" and if you infiltrate some up near enough to those damn markerlights, wipe them out in a round of shooting... it mightnt seem cost effective, BUT its better than letting them buff the riptides..


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 15:53:32


Post by: ClockworkZion


Generally speaking Markerlights are more important to kill than anything else in a Tau army early in the game. The sooner those Pathfinders go down the easier the army is to deal with.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:04:32


Post by: Martel732


 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.


If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:14:18


Post by: Lockark


Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.


If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.



My csm get a ccw for the same price as ATSKNF. You have to agree its worth more then a 1 point reduction or a ccw


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:29:50


Post by: clively


Any given army can be really good or completely terrible depending on a combination of the player and your local meta. I've found that the skill of the player usually has a much bigger impact on any given game than the units they are running...

Of course, there are certain match ups that regardless of skill level you just can't win. Like an entire foot slogging army of DE warriors with 100% poison (no dark lances or blasters) going up against IG Mech w/lots of large blast templates. However, I'm not sure that a medium to high skill player would ever run a completely unhinged list like that.... except as a joke.

To me player skill boils down to the ability to create a strong TAC list in combination with having the strategic and tactical acumen to make it work. I've certainly leveraged my DE to win against "hard" armies like Tau, Eldar and Daemons where my opponent used common net lists. One of the most hilarious games I had involved watching an opponents 20+ khorne dogs literally run around the table in a large circle trying to catch up with a good sized unit of non scoring jetbikes... only for him to realize at the bottom of turn 5 that he had ignored all of the objectives; which I held. Good army, not so good general playing against a so called "bottom tier" army with a decent general. That said, I had my first loss against a marine based army (Dark Angels - commonly considered one of the worst armies out there) since 6e hit a few weeks ago. Power Armor is just not an issue for DE; however this guy completely killed me because his strategy/tactics were on a much higher level than mine.

I'm not saying that army tiers don't exist. However, I think the "tiers" are only one aspect of the game and a relatively minor one at that for the vast majority of players.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:30:22


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.


If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

Because it's effectively a 1 point upgrade and handing out 3 rules for 1 point is asinine. It costs even less than that when you factor in Chapter Tactics!


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:31:54


Post by: Martel732


 Lockark wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.


If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.



My csm get a ccw for the same price as ATSKNF. You have to agree its worth more then a 1 point reduction or a ccw


No. In my experience it is worth basically zero. My marines are DYING, not making tests. I can't lose a close combat because I can't get into close combat. And even if I do, it's a throwaway squad that can't beat me anyway and they just shoot me again the next turn. Xenos don't care about ATSKNF because they never plan on beating you in CC and hence, no pursuit rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF being that effective or not, I still think it needs to be restricted to "Pass Fear Tests" only. It doesn't need to be 3 effects in one, it's just too much bonus wise as is.


If it is not contributing to victories, why not leave it? Or just get rid of it and give marines better firepower outside of the Gravstar. I truly wouldn't care if they just got rid of it and made marines even cheaper. I need more bodies to feed to the Eldar gods.

ATSKNF was a huge deal in 3rd. In fact, it was completely broken. But now the game is so different, it's just something for Xeno players to hold out and say, "See? You've got this awesome ability!" When, in fact, it is useless.

Because it's effectively a 1 point upgrade and handing out 3 rules for 1 point is asinine. It costs even less than that when you factor in Chapter Tactics!


This is a case of CSM getting the royal bone, not loyalists being awesome. Even with all the dodads that loyalist marines get, they still are 100% reliant upon the Gravstar to be truly scary. The marines themselves are still liabilities, not plusses.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:36:55


Post by: ClockworkZion


You're forgetting the auto-rally 3" PLUS 6" move that you get if you're forces to flee, which can happen from shooting casualties.

And your complaints have more to do with tactics and your opponents than if the rule is really worth it or not.

From a strict points costing method I don't see any rule that hands out multiple other rules as being worth being that cheap, even if some people don't get nearly as much utility out of it as others.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:38:57


Post by: Martel732


 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're forgetting the auto-rally 3" PLUS 6" move that you get if you're forces to flee, which can happen from shooting casualties.

And your complaints have more to do with tactics and your opponents than if the rule is really worth it or not.

From a strict points costing method I don't see any rule that hands out multiple other rules as being worth being that cheap, even if some people don't get nearly as much utility out of it as others.


No. If the game invalidates ATSKNF, then its point cost goes down or goes away. As I stated, compare its effects on the play of the game in 3rd to now. Who cares if I autorally? They just get shot some more and die anyway. ATSKNF just lets Xenos roll more dice before you pack in the game.

Has more to do with my opponents? You mean the opponents that are fielding legal lists and using them legally? Basically, this approach is, "If the game weren't the game, then ATSKNF would great!" Xeno shooting and xeno-mimic gravstars ARE the game now. That invalidates ATSKNF as this powerhouse rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look. I'm in complete agreement that CSM got totally hosed. But everything that mows down CSM also mows down loyalists, and ATSKNF doesn't help at all. If you break and autorally, they just keep shooting. They are both boned because they are paying points for stats and armor that don't do anything while being undergunned themselves. They are like British tanks from WWII.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:46:20


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
No. If the game invalidates ATSKNF, then its point cost goes down or goes away. As I stated, compare its effects on the play of the game in 3rd to now. Who cares if I autorally? They just get shot some more and die anyway. ATSKNF just lets Xenos roll more dice before you pack in the game.

The game doesn't invalidate it. Target priority and armies that can bring a lot of long ranged firepower (Guard (sort of, most of it scatters), Tau, Eldar) are what invalidates it, not the whole game.

Martel732 wrote:
Has more to do with my opponents? You mean the opponents that are fielding legal lists and using them legally? Basically, this approach is, "If the game weren't the game, then ATSKNF would great!" Xeno shooting and xeno-mimic gravstars ARE the game now. That invalidates ATSKNF as this powerhouse rule.

Multiple Riptides or Taudar or Wave Serpent Spam invalidates a lot of armies. Legal? Sure. Really following the "Spirit of the Game" (that funny little section at the start of the rulebook that says players should try and play the game to be fun for EVERYONE involved that people forget when they're manically skulldragging people across the table)? Not always.

I'm not saying it's a "Powerhouse Rule" I'm saying it's a bloated rule with too many different effects and is poorly designed/costed. As someone who likes to look at the codexes and tinker with ideas on how to update them as kind of a hobby it bothers me from a design standpoint, even if you aren't getting a lot out of it.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:49:17


Post by: Martel732


Imperial knights don't leave much in their wake to auto-rally either. Doesn't look like IG will, either. It's a garbage-time rule now because the mechanics it helps you with don't matter in crunch time. Sure, it probably will come up with Nids from time to time. Whoopee. Who cares?

I'd be down for modifying ATSKNF or getting rid of it and giving all loyalists a +1 LD across the board, including commanders, making them an 11. That fits thematically, as well. Maybe, just maybe, someone would bring a chaplain then. Nah.......

And as for casual games, marines' firepower is so poor that I don't understand how marines aren't horribly outgunned in casual lists, either. There are so many bad units in C:SM, that if you are just going casual, I can randomly pick units from Xeno codices and still be better off. It all starts with marine troops having very little killing power and access to either AP 2 or wound spamming having gone way up and goes from there. Everything that is true for my BA or counts-as Iron Hands is ALSO true for CSM, and that's a big reason why I bet CSM players are unhappy.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 16:55:39


Post by: ClockworkZion


We don't need to give Loyalist Marines a bonus to their Leadership, it's already pretty high across the board so what would the bonus actually do?

Plus characteristics (outside of AV values) can't exceed 10.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 17:03:47


Post by: BlaxicanX


8 isn't really that high. It's 1 more than the standard.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 17:07:44


Post by: ClockworkZion


 BlaxicanX wrote:
8 isn't really that high. It's 1 more than the standard.


It's highert than average on 2d6. Plus Marines often test on a 9.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 17:21:57


Post by: GoliothOnline


I want Obliterator Weapons on my Chaos Tanks when upgraded for Daemonic Possessed.
Legion tactics would be a +.

Give me Power of the Warp (Machine Spirit) So my stupid Land Raiders and Predators don't come at a handicap and never fire their full potential. Or straight up give them Independent fire on their weapons.

A Decrease in cost to the Defiler to bring it in line with the Soul Grinder (How the hell is that thing only 170 points with its common Torrent + Nurgle upgs?!)

Chain Axes are rubbish. Champions should be able to take Evicerators and they should be actually good against their MEQ bretheren, whom they were actually manufactured to kill.

Possessed should have their entire Crimson Slaughter buff Dex rolled into the Original Dex. Buff them to constantly have Power Weapons (Since they still cost an arm and a leg - Might as well give them the benefit of having what their models come with) Rending on 6s They should move like beasts all the time.

Remove the Noob Trap of Warp Talons Deep Strike. It's absolute garbage to see friendly games of people taking these gorgeous models only to see them make the horrendous mistake of falling for GWs jackassery and giving up First Blood + Kill points. And for Christ sake, lower their Point cost to 110 for 5. There should be no reason in a 6th Ed. game you are being punished for taking a unit that forgoes it's Shooting, alla Raptors, to take up an extra CC weapon just to have them fall short in every regard.

Give Ahriman access to Divination.... The fact we have to ask this makes me lose faith in the game almost entirely.

Reduce the cost of Thousand Sons to 120 points for the base 5 and 20 points per additional model thereafter. No one should have to pay an arm and a leg for AP3 situational boltgun shots on models that can't run, can't even defend themselves with overwatch, NOR retain their usefullness once the champion dies. More ill thought out rubbish.

Buff the range of Ectoplasma Cannons on Forgefiends to actually be worth taking. We shouldn't be punished for taking the "Bad guys" (Or however you want to justify it) in a game. "Oh you get inferior Plasma Cannons because Chaos are the bad guys" >.>

GIVE DAEMON PRINCES THEIR BLOODY EW BACK. Mother of god.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 17:22:46


Post by: BlaxicanX


It's 1 higher than average on a 2d6.

Imperial Guard often test on 8.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 17:27:33


Post by: MWHistorian


GoliothOnline wrote:
I want Obliterator Weapons on my Chaos Tanks when upgraded for Daemonic Possessed.
Legion tactics would be a +.

Give me Power of the Warp (Machine Spirit) So my stupid Land Raiders and Predators don't come at a handicap and never fire their full potential. Or straight up give them Independent fire on their weapons.

A Decrease in cost to the Defiler to bring it in line with the Soul Grinder (How the hell is that thing only 170 points with its common Torrent + Nurgle upgs?!)

Chain Axes are rubbish. Champions should be able to take Evicerators and they should be actually good against their MEQ bretheren, whom they were actually manufactured to kill.

Possessed should have their entire Crimson Slaughter buff Dex rolled into the Original Dex. Buff them to constantly have Power Weapons (Since they still cost an arm and a leg - Might as well give them the benefit of having what their models come with) Rending on 6s They should move like beasts all the time.

Remove the Noob Trap of Warp Talons Deep Strike. It's absolute garbage to see friendly games of people taking these gorgeous models only to see them make the horrendous mistake of falling for GWs jackassery and giving up First Blood + Kill points. And for Christ sake, lower their Point cost to 110 for 5. There should be no reason in a 6th Ed. game you are being punished for taking a unit that forgoes it's Shooting, alla Raptors, to take up an extra CC weapon just to have them fall short in every regard.

Give Ahriman access to Divination.... The fact we have to ask this makes me lose faith in the game almost entirely.

Reduce the cost of Thousand Sons to 120 points for the base 5 and 20 points per additional model thereafter. No one should have to pay an arm and a leg for AP3 situational boltgun shots on models that can't run, can't even defend themselves with overwatch, NOR retain their usefullness once the champion dies. More ill thought out rubbish.

Buff the range of Ectoplasma Cannons on Forgefiends to actually be worth taking. We shouldn't be punished for taking the "Bad guys" (Or however you want to justify it) in a game. "Oh you get inferior Plasma Cannons because Chaos are the bad guys" >.>

GIVE DAEMON PRINCES THEIR BLOODY EW BACK. Mother of god.

I agree with everything said here, especially Ahriman and Divination. Seriously, wtf?
But the only thing I'd change to his list is Legion Tactics. For me that's not just a +, but it's mandatory. A hundred marines get a supplement but legions that have much greater variety in fighting styles that have long histories and greater numbers get nothing? Really?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 17:52:12


Post by: nareik


 Squigsquasher wrote:
As a diehard casual/fluff player who is building a mechanized mono-Slaanesh Noise Marine force, I don't mind the codex. It's kinda underpowered, and it does have some crappy choices (*cough* Mutilators) but overall it's a fairly well balanced book with some good options..

And honestly, as much of a joke mutilators are online, taking a single 65 point T5 2W model with a 2+ 5++ is not going to ruin an army (although I have literally seen people online claim if you even take a single mutilator you will never win a game, I guess that is the hyperbolic polarising nature of the internet for you though). If someone to like the concept of mutilators and scratch build their own one, they can get away with putting it on the table without auto-losing (especially if they aren't playing kill points every single game)!


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:04:06


Post by: Martel732


 ClockworkZion wrote:
We don't need to give Loyalist Marines a bonus to their Leadership, it's already pretty high across the board so what would the bonus actually do?

Plus characteristics (outside of AV values) can't exceed 10.


I'm saying that they should exceed 10. There's no reason they can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GoliothOnline wrote:
I want Obliterator Weapons on my Chaos Tanks when upgraded for Daemonic Possessed.
Legion tactics would be a +.

Give me Power of the Warp (Machine Spirit) So my stupid Land Raiders and Predators don't come at a handicap and never fire their full potential. Or straight up give them Independent fire on their weapons.

A Decrease in cost to the Defiler to bring it in line with the Soul Grinder (How the hell is that thing only 170 points with its common Torrent + Nurgle upgs?!)

Chain Axes are rubbish. Champions should be able to take Evicerators and they should be actually good against their MEQ bretheren, whom they were actually manufactured to kill.

Possessed should have their entire Crimson Slaughter buff Dex rolled into the Original Dex. Buff them to constantly have Power Weapons (Since they still cost an arm and a leg - Might as well give them the benefit of having what their models come with) Rending on 6s They should move like beasts all the time.

Remove the Noob Trap of Warp Talons Deep Strike. It's absolute garbage to see friendly games of people taking these gorgeous models only to see them make the horrendous mistake of falling for GWs jackassery and giving up First Blood + Kill points. And for Christ sake, lower their Point cost to 110 for 5. There should be no reason in a 6th Ed. game you are being punished for taking a unit that forgoes it's Shooting, alla Raptors, to take up an extra CC weapon just to have them fall short in every regard.

Give Ahriman access to Divination.... The fact we have to ask this makes me lose faith in the game almost entirely.

Reduce the cost of Thousand Sons to 120 points for the base 5 and 20 points per additional model thereafter. No one should have to pay an arm and a leg for AP3 situational boltgun shots on models that can't run, can't even defend themselves with overwatch, NOR retain their usefullness once the champion dies. More ill thought out rubbish.

Buff the range of Ectoplasma Cannons on Forgefiends to actually be worth taking. We shouldn't be punished for taking the "Bad guys" (Or however you want to justify it) in a game. "Oh you get inferior Plasma Cannons because Chaos are the bad guys" >.>

GIVE DAEMON PRINCES THEIR BLOODY EW BACK. Mother of god.


Even with all these changes, CSM would still not be top tier, nor viable against gravstars, the main loyalist build. That's pretty sad.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:25:58


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
We don't need to give Loyalist Marines a bonus to their Leadership, it's already pretty high across the board so what would the bonus actually do?

Plus characteristics (outside of AV values) can't exceed 10.


I'm saying that they should exceed 10. There's no reason they can't.

Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook, Page 2, Paragraph 2 wrote:Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models. All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10.


Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook. Page 2, Pragraph 3: Modifers wrote:Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. No characteristic can be modified below 0.

That would be why. There is a cap built in by the rules capping them at 10.

And why does Marine Leadership need to be BETTER? You already claim you don't use it, so what would change? Also it makes CSM even worse by comparison. It's not fixing anything, it's just making a bigger mess.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:30:10


Post by: Martel732


We are modify things, already, so I don't care about the in-game caps. They mean nothing to conjectural units.

I was saying to up their LD by one to represent ATSKNF instead of actually having ATSKNF. How does that make CSM worse?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:32:06


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
We are modify things, already, so I don't care about the in-game caps. They mean nothing to conjectural units.

They do when you're talking about rewriting the core rules to buff an army.

Martel732 wrote:
I was saying to up their LD by one to represent ATSKNF instead of actually having ATSKNF. How does that make CSM worse?

CSM have to BUY their improved Leadership with Veterans of the Long War to get to Marine levels. Then you give it to Marines for free? Nu-uh. To quote Sonic the Hedgehog: "That's no good."


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:34:34


Post by: BlaxicanX


Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:35:13


Post by: Martel732


I thought CSM were LD 9 by default. See how often this doesn't come up?

"They do when you're talking about rewriting the core rules to buff an army. "

Sorry, can't bring myself to give a feth about GW's opinion on their own game. Because they are basically morons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.


Seconded. CSM need a lot of buffs. But I can't imagine what you can do in the face of power armor being basically invalidated by the overall meta of the game.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:40:17


Post by: ClockworkZion


 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

Make ATSKNF ignore Fear and then give their characters a rule such as "Get Back in The Fight" that makes them auto-rally (as normal) when falling back (and then the rule could be used with other armies where it'd make sense to have it). Drop the "no Sweeping Advance" thing because by fluff every army should have that. Instead make it so the swept unit takes another round of attacks by the unit doing the sweeping (just like a normal round of combat) and if they're killed off then they're dead, otherwise they've escaped as they made their fighting retreat.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

And overbuffing Marines doesn't fix the game balance either. Rewriting core mechanics just so one army can benefit is "over egging the pudding" (as it was once put to me).


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:51:20


Post by: Martel732


Sounds fine to me. It would suck to be swept by cheesy ass FMC in melee, but it wouldn't change the outcome. Screamerstar + FMC still equals marine loss.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:55:41


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
Sounds fine to me. It would suck to be swept by cheesy ass FMC in melee, but it wouldn't change the outcome. Screamerstar + FMC still equals marine loss.

It wouldn't change the outcome for everything else though.

As for the Screamerstar and Flying Circus issue that's something that just needs a fair amount of rebalancing rules wise that'd take a big set of changes to really fix.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 18:58:19


Post by: Martel732


I guess it lets the Screamerstar star sweep as well, but it's not like marines can ever beat it anyway. It's just a testament to the state of the game in that 3rd edition I'd be fighting to keep ATSKNF, and now in 6th, I just don't care.

So, yeah, to answer the original question: CSM are in fact, irrelevant. Marinew are only relevant because of the new $70/3 model grav cents supported by specific psychic powers. White scars are great, but most tournies seem to be ruling that WS get cover save against grav, which throws White Scars back down below the top lists.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:12:32


Post by: Makumba


Aren't your marines just dieing and not runing , because they have ATKNF?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:14:13


Post by: StarTrotter


Martel732 wrote:
I thought CSM were LD 9 by default. See how often this doesn't come up?

"They do when you're talking about rewriting the core rules to buff an army. "

Sorry, can't bring myself to give a feth about GW's opinion on their own game. Because they are basically morons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.


Seconded. CSM need a lot of buffs. But I can't imagine what you can do in the face of power armor being basically invalidated by the overall meta of the game.


CSM usually test on a ld9 because they are automatically forced to take sergeants (sergeants that suicide challenge and also lead to CSM being more expensive as a unit until when a unit of 10 where they cost the same as a tactical marine squad before finally getting cheaper with additional units).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because Space Marines by design are supposed to be immune to fear and almost impossible to run off the board. That's why ATSKNF exists. If you want to get rid of it, either make them fearless, or LD10, or find a new mechanic that supports that design mechanic. You weaken your own argument when you complain about ATSKNF and demand it gets removed, but offer absolutely nothing to replace what it does.

Make ATSKNF ignore Fear and then give their characters a rule such as "Get Back in The Fight" that makes them auto-rally (as normal) when falling back (and then the rule could be used with other armies where it'd make sense to have it). Drop the "no Sweeping Advance" thing because by fluff every army should have that. Instead make it so the swept unit takes another round of attacks by the unit doing the sweeping (just like a normal round of combat) and if they're killed off then they're dead, otherwise they've escaped as they made their fighting retreat.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The quality of CSM is irrelevant. They're two different armies that exist independently of one another- you can't use the power level of one codex to influence the power level of another. CSM sucks, making SM weaker won't fix that.

And overbuffing Marines doesn't fix the game balance either. Rewriting core mechanics just so one army can benefit is "over egging the pudding" (as it was once put to me).


Basically this. Although fear REALLY needs an update to make it worth a flip honestly. As per sweeping, I'd say either something like that or the enemy gets caught up, looses some extra models and stays stuck in close combat. Either could work (and if it is the former assault ds might be added I guess?)


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:24:05


Post by: Martel732


Makumba wrote:
Aren't your marines just dieing and not runing , because they have ATKNF?


No, because they never get to test. They are gone.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:26:06


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
Makumba wrote:
Aren't your marines just dieing and not runing , because they have ATKNF?


No, because they never get to test. They are gone.

1 MC shouldn't be putting out enough attacks to flat out kill a Tact Squad (MCs have fairly numbers of attacks generally speaking), how is this happening?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:27:29


Post by: Martel732


I was talking about shooting deaths. I didn't understand he was talking about melee with an MC. Yeah, ATSKNF just makes it a slow, painful death.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:28:43


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
I was talking about shooting deaths. I didn't understand he was talking about melee with an MC. Yeah, ATSKNF just makes it a slow, painful death.

Then leadership is hardly the issue and buffing Ld fixes nothing.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:29:32


Post by: Martel732


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I was talking about shooting deaths. I didn't understand he was talking about melee with an MC. Yeah, ATSKNF just makes it a slow, painful death.

Then leadership is hardly the issue and buffing Ld fixes nothing.


I agree, I was just throwing that out there as a way to SIMULATE ATSKNF, while tossing ATSKNF out of the game.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:31:46


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I was talking about shooting deaths. I didn't understand he was talking about melee with an MC. Yeah, ATSKNF just makes it a slow, painful death.

Then leadership is hardly the issue and buffing Ld fixes nothing.


I agree, I was just throwing that out there as a way to SIMULATE ATSKNF, while tossing ATSKNF out of the game.

Ah. I see.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 19:32:52


Post by: Martel732


Unless ATSKNF has a way to shield me from ion accelerators, I really don't give a feth about it.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 20:09:05


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


I don't think nerfing loyalist marines is the answer. The only way to fix CSM in my eyes is to buff them.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 20:09:43


Post by: Martel732


 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I don't think nerfing loyalist marines is the answer. The only way to fix CSM in my eyes is to buff them.


Especially a nerf that doesn't even address why CSM and meqs are losing in general.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 20:23:51


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I don't think nerfing loyalist marines is the answer. The only way to fix CSM in my eyes is to buff them.


Especially a nerf that doesn't even address why CSM and meqs are losing in general.

Like I said I don't like ATSKNF as is because it's a badly designed, bloated rule, not because it makes Marines win more ofte n.

FMC shenanigans are a separate issue.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 20:33:14


Post by: Martel732


Ah, okay. To me, I guess it just blends in with all the other crappy GW rules.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 22:20:32


Post by: da001


Warning: wall of text & random thoughts.

Martel732 wrote:

Especially a nerf that doesn't even address why CSM and meqs are losing in general.

Just to put things in perspective, I would like to give some sources about meqĀ“s tournament results.

To begin with, the meta is currently dominated by Tau, Eldar and Space Marines, with Daemons and Inquisition creating a "first tier". This is from BOLS regarding Adepticon 2014 :
"The meta though, as predicted, was a bit stale. Over 50% of the armies there used Eldar, Tau or Space Marines in some fashion. And, Daemons were also a force, just as predicted. Lastly, as I called (to no one's surprise) Inquisition was everywhere. "
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-meta-watch-post-adepticon.html
Specifics can be discussed but currently Space Marines are a winning Codex: grav guns, bikes, centurions...

20% of all players used Space Marines as the main army, being the preferred army for the tournament, with Eldar & Tau being close. "there were as many Space Marine players as the 9 lowest armies combined".
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-army-meta-q12-2014-edition.html
Only 3% of the players used CSM.

So I donĀ“t think you can compare SM with CSM. The gap is really big.... or it isnĀ“t? After all, both SM and CSM ended up in the top 16 players. Tyranids (new Codex already in use), Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Grey Knights were missing, but both SM and CSM did well. So how it comes they feel so... irrelevant?

I think the problem lays in the meq basic soldier. It seems that Space Marines are dominating the meta, and it seems that CSM are not that bad but, if you look at the winning lists, they are no longer a meq army.

LetĀ“s have a look at some of the top 16 players & lists:
Spoiler:

If you look at Tim GorthamĀ“s list, how many "meq" Space Marines do you find? Five! A single 5 men tactical squad. The rest are Centurions, Scouts and vehicles.(http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tim-Gorthams-Space-Marines-Space-Marines-Inquisition-2nd-Seed.pdf)

Tyler DeVries: zero meqs. Not even a single model: Centurions and Scouts. http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tyler-DeVriess-Tau-Space-Marines-Inqusition-3rd-Seed.pdf

In CSM is even worse:
We find Robert Tilly's Chaos Space Marines: zero meqs: Cultists & Heldrake. And supporting Daemons. http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Robert-Tillys-Deamons-Chaos-Space-Marines-9th-Seed.pdf

Nick NanavatiĀ“s CSM: zero meqs again. Cultists and Heldrake. And supporting Daemons. http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Nick-Nanavati-Deamons-Chaos-Space-Marines-11th-Seed.pdf

I would never play any of these lists. I understand that a competitive player should use the most powerful tools at his/her disposal, so kudos to them. But I would never play a SM or CSM list (I play both armies) without... well... Space Marines! WhatĀ“s the point of it? I mean, sure it is nice to add some bikes or cultists to your Space Marine armies but... how it comes we see list after list without a single Space Marine (loyal or traitor) in a Space Marine army?

I think the reason people do not play CSM in competitions is because it is awfully boring at this point: there is a single list clearly better than the rest. Most units cannot compete with the Cultist&Heldrake, and basic Chaos Space Marines are particularly bad. And SM have lots of strong lists, but they share the same problem: Centurions, Scouts, Bikes... the basic meq is dead.

Chaos Space Marines are "irrelevant", just like Space Marines are "irrelevant", because there are many other units in their books that are not Space Marines and outperform them. If you play for fun, they still have a place though. But you are deliberately taking "weak" units. When you are list-building, it feels "wrong" to pick them.

Anyway, not all weak units are the same. The basic tactical marine can be "a joke" against a cut-throat list, but it is still far better than the csm equivalent: there is a single one point between them, and lots of Special Rules for that single point. I play both armies and I will be really happy if someone put the CSM at the level of SM: these "classic" brother vs brother fights are no longer fun. If the CSM player starts heldraking the SM player must leave behind many "weak" units, and if the CSM player uses a random / fluffy bunch of units, it is a one sided battle. And ATSKNF is partly the culprit of the power gap between the armies.

Sorry for the long post, just a probably wrong opinion from a not-competitive player. Centurions and Heldrakes are abominations to me.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/21 22:43:15


Post by: ausYenLoWang


BOTH the "CSM" lists supplied there was CSM as allies not as the primary army, so the reason they ONLY take cultists and a helldrake is thats all that fits into the FMC circus. hence the lack of MEQ in the lists.

So that makes it even worse for CSM really.. best use is allies as a drake can be handy..

SM are extremely prevelant, and ATSKNF is a BS load of bollox, shoot them up then they get a 9" more the next turn, because as a csm player its damn hard to wipe units right out, in close combat, if they lose they step out and shoot you before charging back in, so if they did lose, they get the same result as hit and run.

lets look at what happens in a CSM unit. your character assaults them, i HAVE to challenge with a sarg, you kill the sarg win combat and sweep the whole unit... LAME.

VOTLW is a terrible excuse for a rule. Forced challenges... is rubbish total rubbish

as to another comment on the above, there is 2 types of MEQ troop i might field, Plague or Noise marines... they can be decent, what you wont see is my unit of berzerkers, or my 3 units of Thousand sons on the table.

Csm need to be buffed up, i dont want OP, but better. Love my army, but i also know if i want to be competitive, Trip drakes, 4-6 nurgle oblits, and prolly a DP will be in the list. So ill happily take Mid tier, rather than down at the bottom of 6th ed books,


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/23 23:34:33


Post by: Jancoran


 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are fine. Im winning. I'm not feeling outclassed. I run just one Heldrake. I even use Mutilators.

Find the cheese is my advice, if you're struggling. =)

Pics or no proof.


My blog address is there if you need it. Even a video report up there I think.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 11:33:27


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 ausYenLoWang wrote:

lets look at what happens in a CSM unit. your character assaults them, i HAVE to challenge with a sarg, you kill the sarg win combat and sweep the whole unit... LAME.


You have twice the number of attacks and can take double special weapons, what on earth are you doing to lose to Tactical Squads in CC as CSM?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 12:44:27


Post by: Mozzamanx


Just making sure, CSM have the same number of attacks as a Tactical under 'normal' conditions. They have the option of swapping their Bolter for a CCW and hence gaining +1 Attack at the expense of shooting, or they can pay a small-but-not-negligible fee to have both at the same time.

They used to have +1 Attack over Loyalists, just as they also had +1Ld. Under the current rules they are simply Tacticals who lose Combat Squads, ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics for a 1pt discount, are forced to pay for a Veteran Sergeant, and then have different wargear options to choose from. As a basic package they are objectively inferior and it is only in the option selection that they start to gain some lead.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 13:34:05


Post by: A GumyBear


Mozzamanx wrote:
Just making sure, CSM have the same number of attacks as a Tactical under 'normal' conditions. They have the option of swapping their Bolter for a CCW and hence gaining +1 Attack at the expense of shooting, or they can pay a small-but-not-negligible fee to have both at the same time.

They used to have +1 Attack over Loyalists, just as they also had +1Ld. Under the current rules they are simply Tacticals who lose Combat Squads, ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics for a 1pt discount, are forced to pay for a Veteran Sergeant, and then have different wargear options to choose from. As a basic package they are objectively inferior and it is only in the option selection that they start to gain some lead.


Emphasis on start


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 13:49:18


Post by: bullyboy


I know I'm new to all this 6th Ed stuff, but when I look at some of the lists posted earlier from BOLS, I ask myself "what the heck happened to 40K?" Allies upon allies, upon allies...all HQ, heavy Support and small. cheap Troop "fillers". Just looks and feels wrong IMHO. Not to mention that the units that are being used so much (Helldrake and Centurions etc) look like absolute poo.

Do people not running Tournaments with limitations? 1500pts, 1 FOC, 1/3 of points in Troops for example. Shake up this strange meta.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 14:37:31


Post by: Makumba


Mozzamanx wrote:
Just making sure, CSM have the same number of attacks as a Tactical under 'normal' conditions. They have the option of swapping their Bolter for a CCW and hence gaining +1 Attack at the expense of shooting, or they can pay a small-but-not-negligible fee to have both at the same time.

They used to have +1 Attack over Loyalists, just as they also had +1Ld. Under the current rules they are simply Tacticals who lose Combat Squads, ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics for a 1pt discount, are forced to pay for a Veteran Sergeant, and then have different wargear options to choose from. As a basic package they are objectively inferior and it is only in the option selection that they start to gain some lead.

I don't like chaos armies , because of their helldrakes , but I did use a lot of SW ally in my AM army . They cost a bit more then csm , but have the same two special weapons per 10 guys ,a powerax that can't be challanged , a totem which helped me ton of times and the have +1A more then csm. On top of that my SW get counter attack and ATKNF.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 17:03:54


Post by: f2k


bullyboy wrote:
I know I'm new to all this 6th Ed stuff, but when I look at some of the lists posted earlier from BOLS, I ask myself "what the heck happened to 40K?" Allies upon allies, upon allies...all HQ, heavy Support and small. cheap Troop "fillers". Just looks and feels wrong IMHO. Not to mention that the units that are being used so much (Helldrake and Centurions etc) look like absolute poo.

Do people not running Tournaments with limitations? 1500pts, 1 FOC, 1/3 of points in Troops for example. Shake up this strange meta.


Well, that was utterly predictable from the moment that the allies chart became known. The sheer amount of alliances are a WAAC players dream come true. And now that we're seeing allies-that-are-not-really-allies... Well... I might just be cynical, but I honestly feel that it's become very obvious indeed that Games Workshop cares more about selling new models than about writing codexes with both internal and external balance. Some units are clearly better than others (in some cases very much so) and sadly it seems as the basic Marine is one of the units that's gotten really seriously shafted. There's simply too much high strength / low AP weapons out there right now. The resilience that Marines pay so dearly for is barely there anymore.

Putting restrictions on the FOC might create an interesting tournament, but personally I'm against restrictions in general. Firstly, it shafts those armies that are designed to rely on non-troop choices and secondly, most restrictions are nothing more than an admission that the basic rules do not work and that others play in a way that you do not like.


As for the topic of Chaos, I consider the current codex to be a huge disappointment. Not only does it rely overly on a few gimmicky units, it also doesn't feel very chaotic. I just don't get the ancient-malicious-evil vibe from it. And don't get me started on the topic of the special rules... Stupid forced challenges... Mutter... Grumble...


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 17:37:11


Post by: ErikSetzer


 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Hi everyone, greetings from a loyal CSM player. With the release of the AM codex, and all the things that have been occurring over the past year or so, it is beginning to seem that CSM is becoming more and more a bottom tier army. We don't have the abilities that many of the armies have. Our access to psycker with divination is extremely limited, the DPs are forced to take at least one warp charge from the codex powers (which are terrible, don't lie), and our psykers generally costs more than other armies'. As for shooting, I think CSM is mediocre, nothing really special, nothing really terrible. Just average. As for assault, we are way overcosted, in an edition that does not favor assaulting. With all the servo skulls, and the over costing/nerfing of our assault units (don't talk to me about possessed, they still suck), we have trouble getting into assault.

After a weekend of some pretty intense gaming, it is seeming that the only real ability we have is the ability to MSU, but we have to take drakes (which is a crutch). Even then though, MSU is done far better by other armies, such as AM.

Anyways, enough with the rant. What are everyone's general feelings about CSM? Where do you think it ranks as far as competitiveness? Do you think things will just get worse with future codexes?



Hmm...

I used Nurgle psychic powers on a Daemon Prince to make a mockery of Necron units before chewing them up in a game once. Not about to say those powers are useless.

I've out-shot a Tau army with my Iron Warriors, and he wasn't playing a weak, easy list.

I obliterated a Space Wolf army so bad with my Iron Warriors that I quit a campaign because I felt so bad about stomping the guy's army into uselessness (it was a campaign where you have to buy back units that are lost).

I don't even own a Heldrake. I don't have anything with a jump pack. Don't use Marks (except on the DP because I'm forced to), because IW don't use those. No Cultists. No dataslates.

New IG might give me some trouble, but I think I can field enough lascannons to give them some trouble, and a couple of squads in Rhinos with meltaguns to run up close and melta tanks to death, then charge what's left.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 21:30:22


Post by: bullyboy


f2k wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
I know I'm new to all this 6th Ed stuff, but when I look at some of the lists posted earlier from BOLS, I ask myself "what the heck happened to 40K?" Allies upon allies, upon allies...all HQ, heavy Support and small. cheap Troop "fillers". Just looks and feels wrong IMHO. Not to mention that the units that are being used so much (Helldrake and Centurions etc) look like absolute poo.

Do people not running Tournaments with limitations? 1500pts, 1 FOC, 1/3 of points in Troops for example. Shake up this strange meta.



Putting restrictions on the FOC might create an interesting tournament, but personally I'm against restrictions in general. Firstly, it shafts those armies that are designed to rely on non-troop choices and secondly, most restrictions are nothing more than an admission that the basic rules do not work and that others play in a way that you do not like.

.


I disagree with this. I've run many FOW tournaments and have often placed restrictions (thematic mostly). The results are usually much improved. Which armies rely on non-troop choices so much? Is there a force who's troop options are just awful, if everyone must take Troops?
And if we don't think the basic rules are broken, why are these conversations taking place?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 21:41:09


Post by: StarTrotter


bullyboy wrote:
f2k wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
I know I'm new to all this 6th Ed stuff, but when I look at some of the lists posted earlier from BOLS, I ask myself "what the heck happened to 40K?" Allies upon allies, upon allies...all HQ, heavy Support and small. cheap Troop "fillers". Just looks and feels wrong IMHO. Not to mention that the units that are being used so much (Helldrake and Centurions etc) look like absolute poo.

Do people not running Tournaments with limitations? 1500pts, 1 FOC, 1/3 of points in Troops for example. Shake up this strange meta.



Putting restrictions on the FOC might create an interesting tournament, but personally I'm against restrictions in general. Firstly, it shafts those armies that are designed to rely on non-troop choices and secondly, most restrictions are nothing more than an admission that the basic rules do not work and that others play in a way that you do not like.

.


I disagree with this. I've run many FOW tournaments and have often placed restrictions (thematic mostly). The results are usually much improved. Which armies rely on non-troop choices so much? Is there a force who's troop options are just awful, if everyone must take Troops?
And if we don't think the basic rules are broken, why are these conversations taking place?


I'd be interested to see how Tank regiments work in there. It might make them too strong or the sheer number of troops might beat them. Only real hole I can see is Eldar Waveserpent spam is still a breeze in there and kroot are still very efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:

lets look at what happens in a CSM unit. your character assaults them, i HAVE to challenge with a sarg, you kill the sarg win combat and sweep the whole unit... LAME.


You have twice the number of attacks and can take double special weapons, what on earth are you doing to lose to Tactical Squads in CC as CSM?


I'll agree it isn't as big of a thing when it is just is CSM versus tacticals in CC. Seriously, between the two, the one that gets the assault will probably win. The only two things that slightly screw CSM over in this scenario is that the declared challenge can lead to losing a leadership level for the unit easily and the fact that And they Shall Know no Fear provides a way to get out of an assault scot free, no sweeping allowed. So slight edge to SM tacticals in terms of simple CC but not by much. As per ranged. CSM win solely because it's better to have one extra SW than it is to have an extra bolter (the standard non vet sergeant). That said, SM don't have to worry about leadership when the unit starts to die in droves and drop by 25% or to it. Really though, I'd rather SM be able to take a SW or HW in a unit of 10 than it is right now. That said, tacticals are still superior to CSM simply because of the amount of bonus rules they get for 1 point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mozzamanx wrote:
Just making sure, CSM have the same number of attacks as a Tactical under 'normal' conditions. They have the option of swapping their Bolter for a CCW and hence gaining +1 Attack at the expense of shooting, or they can pay a small-but-not-negligible fee to have both at the same time.

They used to have +1 Attack over Loyalists, just as they also had +1Ld. Under the current rules they are simply Tacticals who lose Combat Squads, ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics for a 1pt discount, are forced to pay for a Veteran Sergeant, and then have different wargear options to choose from. As a basic package they are objectively inferior and it is only in the option selection that they start to gain some lead.
I think he was talking about getting the charge.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/24 22:25:21


Post by: Martel732


bullyboy wrote:
f2k wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
I know I'm new to all this 6th Ed stuff, but when I look at some of the lists posted earlier from BOLS, I ask myself "what the heck happened to 40K?" Allies upon allies, upon allies...all HQ, heavy Support and small. cheap Troop "fillers". Just looks and feels wrong IMHO. Not to mention that the units that are being used so much (Helldrake and Centurions etc) look like absolute poo.

Do people not running Tournaments with limitations? 1500pts, 1 FOC, 1/3 of points in Troops for example. Shake up this strange meta.



Putting restrictions on the FOC might create an interesting tournament, but personally I'm against restrictions in general. Firstly, it shafts those armies that are designed to rely on non-troop choices and secondly, most restrictions are nothing more than an admission that the basic rules do not work and that others play in a way that you do not like.

.


I disagree with this. I've run many FOW tournaments and have often placed restrictions (thematic mostly). The results are usually much improved. Which armies rely on non-troop choices so much? Is there a force who's troop options are just awful, if everyone must take Troops?
And if we don't think the basic rules are broken, why are these conversations taking place?


Tactical marines and scouts from C:SM are both pretty crappy. At least CSM gets sweet, sweet cultists.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 00:15:44


Post by: Jancoran


bullyboy wrote:
I know I'm new to all this 6th Ed stuff, but when I look at some of the lists posted earlier from BOLS, I ask myself "what the heck happened to 40K?" Allies upon allies, upon allies...all HQ, heavy Support and small. cheap Troop "fillers". Just looks and feels wrong IMHO. Not to mention that the units that are being used so much (Helldrake and Centurions etc) look like absolute poo.

Do people not running Tournaments with limitations? 1500pts, 1 FOC, 1/3 of points in Troops for example. Shake up this strange meta.


Highlander Tournaments look bad a$$ for shaking it up. My own Ambassadorial Tournament (see 40Kambasadors.com for details, though its not currently updated yet) also does something about this. But the reality of 40K is that allies are usable to an extent, though at some point I feel that you must moderate yourself or it gets silly. theres a funny 40K force org tree floating around that shows HOW crazy the allies can be.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 00:21:50


Post by: herpguy


The problem is that I have never personally met a SM player who realizes that C:CSM is utterly crappy. SM is the easy army to play and people who don't venture outside it don't realize how ATSKNF saves your rear. Today I had a completely WAAC SM player try telling me Huron causes 3 auto pens on buildings and he's completely broken? WTF? I've been told by somebody running a completely grey unpainted White Scars army that plague marines are stupidly good because they can have 2 special weapons and the black mace breaks the game. I even had a SM player with a gravstar + Tigurius tell me that spawn are overpowered. I've been told mark of nurgle breaks the game because apparently if gives +1T AND FnP.

Then there's the SM players who try to say that the 1 pt difference is justified, because apparently chapter tactics are "useless". When I try to explain that even the so-called "worst" chapter tactics would be a godsend to CSM players. An extra D6 pick the highest while running, RENDING in challenges, an extra D3 for sweeping advances? Um I would love that. The worst part is SM get those things for FREE and completely take it for granted. Let's not get started on the chapter tactic that lets you never be able to be locked in a combat you don't want to be in.

SM players who only play SM really can't get how bad the CSM codex is.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 00:36:50


Post by: Martel732


ATSKNF actually does very little in practice. I am having squads slaughtered wholesale, no morale checks taken.

In the world of IG, Tau, Eldar, and Daemons, the only thing really separating CSM and C:SM is the gravstar.

I know CSM is bad; but C:SM is also bad without a gravstar. That's how much Xeno firepower has raised the bar. Yes, in heads up, C:SM has an advantage, but without gravstar firepower, you will likely get to use your CSM CC tech against marines because they can't burn down your whole list like the Xenos can.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 00:44:00


Post by: herpguy


Sure, there are many games where I'm sure ATSKNF doesn't have much of an effect. The thing is, you don't need to worry about your squads being deleted because they whiffed in a combat they usually win. You don't need to worry about your centurions even running forever because a few died.
You can plan on your excellent leadership not failing you. A CSM always has to worry about that variable.

SM can BUILD a character that can beat anybody and anything in the SM codex short of Abaddon and can give Abaddon himself a very good run for his money.

SM have: Unkillable chapter masters, white scars bikes, centurions, Tigurius, thunderfire cannons, and stormtalons all as very competitive units. I'm being pretty conservative there and not even listing all the borderline things. They are not limited to just gravstars to save the day.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 00:47:08


Post by: Makumba


So it looks like this. CSM and SM are meq and both get destroyed as whole squads. if somehow some SM or CSM dudes survive , the SM have atknf and never run and always regroup , while csm run like hell. So ATKNF in a situation you claimed to be truth , still makes sm better then csm .


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 01:01:33


Post by: StarTrotter


 herpguy wrote:
Sure, there are many games where I'm sure ATSKNF doesn't have much of an effect. The thing is, you don't need to worry about your squads being deleted because they whiffed in a combat they usually win. You don't need to worry about your centurions even running forever because a few died.
You can plan on your excellent leadership not failing you. A CSM always has to worry about that variable.

SM can BUILD a character that can beat anybody and anything in the SM codex short of Abaddon and can give Abaddon himself a very good run for his money.

SM have: Unkillable chapter masters, white scars bikes, centurions, Tigurius, thunderfire cannons, and stormtalons all as very competitive units. I'm being pretty conservative there and not even listing all the borderline things. They are not limited to just gravstars to save the day.


With a supplement SM can build a character that smashes Abaddon usually actually.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 01:32:25


Post by: nobody


 herpguy wrote:
The problem is that I have never personally met a SM player who realizes that C:CSM is utterly crappy. SM is the easy army to play and people who don't venture outside it don't realize how ATSKNF saves your rear. Today I had a completely WAAC SM player try telling me Huron causes 3 auto pens on buildings and he's completely broken? WTF? I've been told by somebody running a completely grey unpainted White Scars army that plague marines are stupidly good because they can have 2 special weapons and the black mace breaks the game. I even had a SM player with a gravstar + Tigurius tell me that spawn are overpowered. I've been told mark of nurgle breaks the game because apparently if gives +1T AND FnP.

Then there's the SM players who try to say that the 1 pt difference is justified, because apparently chapter tactics are "useless". When I try to explain that even the so-called "worst" chapter tactics would be a godsend to CSM players. An extra D6 pick the highest while running, RENDING in challenges, an extra D3 for sweeping advances? Um I would love that. The worst part is SM get those things for FREE and completely take it for granted. Let's not get started on the chapter tactic that lets you never be able to be locked in a combat you don't want to be in.

SM players who only play SM really can't get how bad the CSM codex is.


To be fair, I've only played SM this edition and I agree the current CSM codex isn't that great (I even posted as much earlier in the thread)

But I also remember earlier editions which gives me a frame of reference


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 02:07:55


Post by: herpguy


 StarTrotter wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
Sure, there are many games where I'm sure ATSKNF doesn't have much of an effect. The thing is, you don't need to worry about your squads being deleted because they whiffed in a combat they usually win. You don't need to worry about your centurions even running forever because a few died.
You can plan on your excellent leadership not failing you. A CSM always has to worry about that variable.

SM can BUILD a character that can beat anybody and anything in the SM codex short of Abaddon and can give Abaddon himself a very good run for his money.

SM have: Unkillable chapter masters, white scars bikes, centurions, Tigurius, thunderfire cannons, and stormtalons all as very competitive units. I'm being pretty conservative there and not even listing all the borderline things. They are not limited to just gravstars to save the day.


With a supplement SM can build a character that smashes Abaddon usually actually.


Sad but true. For cheaper *and* gives you a S10 large blast you can place anywhere.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 02:27:39


Post by: MWHistorian


I know everyone loves cultists, but if you're going against Sisters of Battle, it might be better to leave them at home. If there's one thing cultists don't like its flammers and sisters have a lot of flammers.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 02:34:26


Post by: StarTrotter


 MWHistorian wrote:
I know everyone loves cultists, but if you're going against Sisters of Battle, it might be better to leave them at home. If there's one thing cultists don't like its flammers and sisters have a lot of flammers.


Yes..... so many flamers. Mwahahahaha BURN HERETICS! Well, the thing is that cultists are still useful. You grab two units, keep them in reserve, squat them in your objectives and giggle. They are just 100 points anyways as the minimum price. Then shove the rest into basically anything else, although usually Fast and a bit into heavy. As per Sisters, whilst they might crush cultists that tried to get close, Riptides then come in and flame them apart (and it doesn't help that Sisters didn't really get AA besides the generic shield choice and allies)


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 03:14:11


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


 herpguy wrote:
The problem is that I have never personally met a SM player who realizes that C:CSM is utterly crappy. SM is the easy army to play and people who don't venture outside it don't realize how ATSKNF saves your rear. Today I had a completely WAAC SM player try telling me Huron causes 3 auto pens on buildings and he's completely broken? WTF? I've been told by somebody running a completely grey unpainted White Scars army that plague marines are stupidly good because they can have 2 special weapons and the black mace breaks the game. I even had a SM player with a gravstar + Tigurius tell me that spawn are overpowered. I've been told mark of nurgle breaks the game because apparently if gives +1T AND FnP.

Then there's the SM players who try to say that the 1 pt difference is justified, because apparently chapter tactics are "useless". When I try to explain that even the so-called "worst" chapter tactics would be a godsend to CSM players. An extra D6 pick the highest while running, RENDING in challenges, an extra D3 for sweeping advances? Um I would love that. The worst part is SM get those things for FREE and completely take it for granted. Let's not get started on the chapter tactic that lets you never be able to be locked in a combat you don't want to be in.

SM players who only play SM really can't get how bad the CSM codex is.

Were they children or adults?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 13:43:54


Post by: herpguy


All adults in their 30s.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 13:45:41


Post by: Martel732


Well don't count me among them. I have, however, voluntarily played without ATSKNF and I never really missed. I think you are taking out your meq-rage on other meqs that end up dying just as badly as your meqs.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 14:25:33


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
Well don't count me among them. I have, however, voluntarily played without ATSKNF and I never really missed. I think you are taking out your meq-rage on other meqs that end up dying just as badly as your meqs.

On the flipside your meta is such that there is almost no point int having it because you never really end up in a position to use it. Not everyone's metas are like that.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 14:30:35


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.


Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 14:41:52


Post by: Martel732


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well don't count me among them. I have, however, voluntarily played without ATSKNF and I never really missed. I think you are taking out your meq-rage on other meqs that end up dying just as badly as your meqs.

On the flipside your meta is such that there is almost no point int having it because you never really end up in a position to use it. Not everyone's metas are like that.


In lower firepower metas, CSM should be taking fewer casualties and therefore fewer LD tests as well. Everyone can recover down to 25% now anyway.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 15:13:10


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well don't count me among them. I have, however, voluntarily played without ATSKNF and I never really missed. I think you are taking out your meq-rage on other meqs that end up dying just as badly as your meqs.

On the flipside your meta is such that there is almost no point int having it because you never really end up in a position to use it. Not everyone's metas are like that.


In lower firepower metas, CSM should be taking fewer casualties and therefore fewer LD tests as well. Everyone can recover down to 25% now anyway.

Perhaps, but they still don't get the auto-recovery of ATSKNF or the protection from Sweeping Advances it provides.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 15:25:31


Post by: Martel732


I understand that. I just don't think those features are that important.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 15:28:12


Post by: Kain


How exactly are CSMs taking fewer casualties than loyalists?

Anything that kills loyalists kills chaos space marines and sisters of battle just as well if not better.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 15:32:02


Post by: Martel732


 Kain wrote:
How exactly are CSMs taking fewer casualties than loyalists?

Anything that kills loyalists kills chaos space marines and sisters of battle just as well if not better.


Lower overall, not in comparison. Fewer casualties = fewer LD tests.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 15:37:01


Post by: Kain


Martel732 wrote:
 Kain wrote:
How exactly are CSMs taking fewer casualties than loyalists?

Anything that kills loyalists kills chaos space marines and sisters of battle just as well if not better.


Lower overall, not in comparison. Fewer casualties = fewer LD tests.

And how are they not dying just as well?

There's a reason why most Chaos Space Marines just take Icon'd Noise marines, cultists, or Plague Marines.

Because basic chaos space marines die like punks and then run away to never be seen again or get slapped with horrify/terrify then run away to never be seen again.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 15:47:07


Post by: Martel732


 Kain wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Kain wrote:
How exactly are CSMs taking fewer casualties than loyalists?

Anything that kills loyalists kills chaos space marines and sisters of battle just as well if not better.


Lower overall, not in comparison. Fewer casualties = fewer LD tests.

And how are they not dying just as well?

There's a reason why most Chaos Space Marines just take Icon'd Noise marines, cultists, or Plague Marines.

Because basic chaos space marines die like punks and then run away to never be seen again or get slapped with horrify/terrify then run away to never be seen again.



Someone was pointing out how in all metas meqs are not dying like they are in mine. That's fine, but if lists aren't fielding enough firepower to derpify meqs, then CSM should be relatively okay as well. I understand that the basic CSM guy is not as good.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 16:04:36


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
I understand that. I just don't think those features are that important.

Which goes back to your bias in regards to your local meta. You don't find them important because you don't get a lot of use out of them and never see the benefits.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 16:07:35


Post by: Martel732


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I understand that. I just don't think those features are that important.

Which goes back to your bias in regards to your local meta. You don't find them important because you don't get a lot of use out of them and never see the benefits.


But those are the most potent Xeno lists. When ATSKNF becomes relevant again, meqs are at least living long enough to do something. Like maybe assault, where CSM gets some advantages back. Maybe. I'm not saying loyalists aren't better. I just don't think ATSKNF is a big part of that.

How good can it be when there exists conditions where they almost never matter? Serpent shield -> always matters. Hell, even prescience -> always matters. ATSKNF -> ????


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 16:35:03


Post by: ClockworkZion


Martel732 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I understand that. I just don't think those features are that important.

Which goes back to your bias in regards to your local meta. You don't find them important because you don't get a lot of use out of them and never see the benefits.


But those are the most potent Xeno lists. When ATSKNF becomes relevant again, meqs are at least living long enough to do something. Like maybe assault, where CSM gets some advantages back. Maybe. I'm not saying loyalists aren't better. I just don't think ATSKNF is a big part of that.

How good can it be when there exists conditions where they almost never matter? Serpent shield -> always matters. Hell, even prescience -> always matters. ATSKNF -> ????

Serpent Shields > Only matter when people either A) actually play Eldar in your area or B) spam Wave Serpents out the Ying-Yang. Likewise for psykers who can Prescience (which aren't THAT many (though now IG can take six of them in a single FOC slot so that might change), they only matter if they're actually brought. I don't see much of that locally, and I'm willing to bet there are others in the same boat.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 16:38:50


Post by: Martel732


No, no. I meant WHEN they are brought. I was just trying to point out mechanics that weren't nearly as if-come-maybe as ATSKNF.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 17:07:33


Post by: A GumyBear


I have found atsknf to be very useful for grav cav when I fight them with my daemons. As a matter if fact I think atsknf is extremely useful for grav cav since they will try to get into cc then hit and run away and if they are losing and getting swept that isn't happening. Also since grav cav have relatively low numbers per squad so will have to test alot.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/25 17:58:13


Post by: Martel732


Yeah, I've only played a couple of games with grav cents. And I don't play White Scars. For them, it's probably better.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/26 03:25:54


Post by: herpguy


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.


Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?


I would trade the juggerlord that is in no competitive lists for the ability to give EW AND a 3++ for 50 pts that is in EVERY competitive SM list. You can also have the double special weapons, I don't think those have even crossed the mind of a competitive player for a very long time.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/26 06:56:58


Post by: StarTrotter


 herpguy wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.


Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?


I would trade the juggerlord that is in no competitive lists for the ability to give EW AND a 3++ for 50 pts that is in EVERY competitive SM list. You can also have the double special weapons, I don't think those have even crossed the mind of a competitive player for a very long time.


Seconded this trade!


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/26 12:20:16


Post by: nareik


Does this mean you guys are going to arrange a game where these alterations have been made to your codexs?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/26 13:49:47


Post by: Makumba


Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I've only played a couple of games with grav cents. And I don't play White Scars. For them, it's probably better.


You don't use bikes and cents ? May I ask what kind of a space marine army do you play ?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/26 16:06:19


Post by: Warmaster Phthisis


Here are the MAIN reasons I think that the CSM codex is the worst, or close to the worst, codex of 6th edition so far:

1) It's a copy paste job. The codex looked rushed and the model release paired with the codex is good evidence of that fact. The fluff entries for most of the units are direct copies of the 5th edition CSM codex with a word swapped for a synonym here and there. It was done like a 3rd grader cribbing wikipedia with a thesaurus. The fluff for CSM is some of the richest in the 40k universe but they put no effort into it.
2) It's an up-the-middle list. There is no infiltrate. There is no scout. There is no outflank. There is no way to safely or reliably deep strike. It is an assault army with no dirty tricks to avoid getting shot to pieces. Low model count and you have to walk up the board. There is no strategy to this army.
3) Weak characters. It appears as though the powers of chaos have weakened and crippled their champions. There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of the HQ section of the CSM codex or any of the character models in the codex.
4) Champion of Chaos. This is the single most crippling rule in the whole codex. You HAVE to put the killiest model in your squad up against their garbage sergeant, turning the 3-4 wounds you could have put on the squad to win combat into only 1. It's not even up to you. What's worse is that if they have tooled their sergeant for close combat at all, you have a pretty good chance of losing your champion. The reward for winning is a roll on the Gifts table where most of the results are irrelevant and the rules for the best reward is so poorly written that you're likely to just have your champ insta-die due to a technicality.
4) Psychic powers. Cult Disciplines are terrible and forced on you if you take a mark. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think CSM are the only ones without access to Divination in the game (which is the best discipline by far). This is also a disappointing fluff fail as Tzeench doesn't have access to Divination. Dark Angels do, but the Thousand Sons don't?
5) The army list doesn't fit the fluff. We have all been clamoring for Traitor Legion lists at least since 3rd edition. We got dino-bots. Who is the person at GW that decided that dinosaur robots were in and traitor legions were out? I'd like their letter of resignation on my desk by the end of the week.

Anyhow, the failure of the CSM codex is that it was IMMEDIATELY disappointing in terms of both the fluff and the functionality in the game. It's weak in shooting. It's strong in assault but there is no inbuilt delivery method and the list contains a fatal flaw that blunts any successful push. And it continues to disappoint with the lacklustre supplements and dataslates. It's the failure that keeps on failing. At this point, even if they did bring out decent Traitor Legion supplements that brought fluff and strategy options to the CSM codex, they would still be hobbled by Champion of Chaos and the weak characters.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 07:06:50


Post by: Jancoran


I just don't know what to say. It's so odd to hear people bagging on the codex.

It doesn't have to be a top tier codex for a good general to win with it.

Everyone seems to want an auto win button and we get these threads about how a codex sucks even though there are people out here verifiably and consistently winning. Why argue with success. Figure out what they're doing RIGHT and emulate it. Or better yet, make your own.

It takes PRACTICE to win. I understand people who dont get to play often jumping off the cliff at every disappointment but I wish those people would admit their lack of perspective.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 07:13:13


Post by: ausYenLoWang


Some of us don't want auto win buttons. The only thing that comes close is the drake and only against meq. Outside of that it goes to pot .
He csm codex competitively is dead in the water, taken as allies for a drake and DP and nothing more.
Casually it can do ok but you get spat on for taking drakes and if you don't.... Then you struggle...


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 08:16:41


Post by: Kain


 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
Here are the MAIN reasons I think that the CSM codex is the worst, or close to the worst, codex of 6th edition so far:

1) It's a copy paste job. The codex looked rushed and the model release paired with the codex is good evidence of that fact. The fluff entries for most of the units are direct copies of the 5th edition CSM codex with a word swapped for a synonym here and there. It was done like a 3rd grader cribbing wikipedia with a thesaurus. The fluff for CSM is some of the richest in the 40k universe but they put no effort into it.
2) It's an up-the-middle list. There is no infiltrate. There is no scout. There is no outflank. There is no way to safely or reliably deep strike. It is an assault army with no dirty tricks to avoid getting shot to pieces. Low model count and you have to walk up the board. There is no strategy to this army.
3) Weak characters. It appears as though the powers of chaos have weakened and crippled their champions. There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of the HQ section of the CSM codex or any of the character models in the codex.
4) Champion of Chaos. This is the single most crippling rule in the whole codex. You HAVE to put the killiest model in your squad up against their garbage sergeant, turning the 3-4 wounds you could have put on the squad to win combat into only 1. It's not even up to you. What's worse is that if they have tooled their sergeant for close combat at all, you have a pretty good chance of losing your champion. The reward for winning is a roll on the Gifts table where most of the results are irrelevant and the rules for the best reward is so poorly written that you're likely to just have your champ insta-die due to a technicality.
4) Psychic powers. Cult Disciplines are terrible and forced on you if you take a mark. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think CSM are the only ones without access to Divination in the game (which is the best discipline by far). This is also a disappointing fluff fail as Tzeench doesn't have access to Divination. Dark Angels do, but the Thousand Sons don't?
5) The army list doesn't fit the fluff. We have all been clamoring for Traitor Legion lists at least since 3rd edition. We got dino-bots. Who is the person at GW that decided that dinosaur robots were in and traitor legions were out? I'd like their letter of resignation on my desk by the end of the week.

Anyhow, the failure of the CSM codex is that it was IMMEDIATELY disappointing in terms of both the fluff and the functionality in the game. It's weak in shooting. It's strong in assault but there is no inbuilt delivery method and the list contains a fatal flaw that blunts any successful push. And it continues to disappoint with the lacklustre supplements and dataslates. It's the failure that keeps on failing. At this point, even if they did bring out decent Traitor Legion supplements that brought fluff and strategy options to the CSM codex, they would still be hobbled by Champion of Chaos and the weak characters.


Tyranids don't have divinitation.

Neither do the Orks.

Heck, neither have any BRB powers at all.

Necrons, Tau, DEldar, Black Templars, and SoBs don't have any psykers period, but other than the Necrons all can ally some in and benefit from their buffs.

Otherwise it's mostly accurate.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 18:53:24


Post by: Martel732


Makumba wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I've only played a couple of games with grav cents. And I don't play White Scars. For them, it's probably better.


You don't use bikes and cents ? May I ask what kind of a space marine army do you play ?



I use one cobbled out of BA. And I don't think BA are getting cents, so I didn't buy any.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 18:59:52


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 herpguy wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.


Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?


I would trade the juggerlord that is in no competitive lists for the ability to give EW AND a 3++ for 50 pts that is in EVERY competitive SM list. You can also have the double special weapons, I don't think those have even crossed the mind of a competitive player for a very long time.


Except for the part where we can't. There's an EW relic in the Black Legion supplement as well.

And just for the record, Chapter Tactics: Black Templars isn't in any competetive list either, so your point is rather moot.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 19:15:09


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Jancoran wrote:
I just don't know what to say. It's so odd to hear people bagging on the codex.

It doesn't have to be a top tier codex for a good general to win with it.

Everyone seems to want an auto win button and we get these threads about how a codex sucks even though there are people out here verifiably and consistently winning. Why argue with success. Figure out what they're doing RIGHT and emulate it. Or better yet, make your own.

It takes PRACTICE to win. I understand people who dont get to play often jumping off the cliff at every disappointment but I wish those people would admit their lack of perspective.


Yes, the adepticon lists are very telling. Cultists, drakes, fill heavy and that's it.

And even then they are very low in the tournament listings, they do have success in chaos daemon lists in the higher rankings who just take a cheap hq, cultists, and drake.

Of course though your going to simply check in, not actually have any numbers at all from tournaments or higher ranked games and simply say they are verifiable winning consistently. Maybe you could provide some? Also of course simply go with the "PRACTICE" and "Your doing it wrong!" card as well, and "YOU JUST WANT AUTOWINS". Without actually reading most of the topic at hand.

Nobody is arguing there is a successful list..It's just got no CSM at all in it.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 20:01:59


Post by: StarTrotter


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
Um I would love that.


Trade you for the Juggerlord and double special weapons on troops?


I would trade the juggerlord that is in no competitive lists for the ability to give EW AND a 3++ for 50 pts that is in EVERY competitive SM list. You can also have the double special weapons, I don't think those have even crossed the mind of a competitive player for a very long time.


Except for the part where we can't. There's an EW relic in the Black Legion supplement as well.

And just for the record, Chapter Tactics: Black Templars isn't in any competetive list either, so your point is rather moot.


Problem being Black Legion's EW isn't a 3++, doesn't get the free IH buffs, and requires any marines you might deploy (if you ever even did) are required to be more expensive not even getting it for free. And yeah it's not in every competitive list either. White Scars are first then Gravstars (I think this is UM usually?) and then Iron Hands.

As for the BY rules, I think he means he would rather have that than champions of chaos which honestly I will have to agree on.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/27 22:49:11


Post by: Veteran of The Long War


 Jancoran wrote:
I just don't know what to say. It's so odd to hear people bagging on the codex.

It doesn't have to be a top tier codex for a good general to win with it.

Everyone seems to want an auto win button and we get these threads about how a codex sucks even though there are people out here verifiably and consistently winning. Why argue with success. Figure out what they're doing RIGHT and emulate it. Or better yet, make your own.

It takes PRACTICE to win. I understand people who dont get to play often jumping off the cliff at every disappointment but I wish those people would admit their lack of perspective.

You obviously haven't read the thread. No one wants an auto win button. We want a codex that let's us build the fluffy army of out choice and is not Marines -1 which it currently is. We would also like for our codex to be somewhat competative and not rely on a crutch unit but that's minor.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 03:22:40


Post by: GoliothOnline


It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 04:40:24


Post by: Jancoran


Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 05:15:19


Post by: StarTrotter


 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.


I dunno. I still just think the Baledrake is too good. Nasty flamer, nasty vector strike, it's a painful combination. Also, I really can't entirely agree with your anti-air statement. There aren't even all that many factions with their own AA let alone good worthwhile not overpriced AA. Granted at least it's not Necron flying bakery level where having some means nothing. Drakes are basically one of the few good things about the codex. Problem being it is too good.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 08:01:40


Post by: Makumba


Most imperial armies can battlebrother tau , that is automaticly more the 50% armies having access to skyfire/interceptor units.
The fact that sm , the mostly played army , puts a buffmander in their centurion stars alongside coteaz , means flyers have to realy be tough or spamed for some of them to survive


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 11:07:24


Post by: f2k


Jancoran wrote:Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.


For me, the problem with this statement is that it basically just adds another layer to a game that's already exceedingly rock-paper-scissor like in its execution.

But the problem is that AA-guns are not multi-purpose.

For example, if I bring several Lascannons, and my opponent goes all infantry, then I can still use my Lascannons to engage his heavy elite infantry. But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Flyers fail, balance-wise, because they need a hard counter or they're going to kill you. You need specialized units to take them out and those units are mainly either insanely overpriced (like Flakk missiles) or nearly useless against anything else (like the Hydra).

Of course, this is just as Games Workshop intended it to be. First we all bought flyers. And then we bought AA-guns to counter them. Mission accomplished...

Makumba wrote:Most imperial armies can battlebrother tau , that is automaticly more the 50% armies having access to skyfire/interceptor units.
The fact that sm , the mostly played army , puts a buffmander in their centurion stars alongside coteaz , means flyers have to realy be tough or spamed for some of them to survive


So the counter to flyer spam is allies spam?

Sigh...

Did I hear anyone say "cheese"? Or possibly even "broken-beyond-repair rules"?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 11:15:55


Post by: Makumba


So the counter to flyer spam is allies spam?

You can't realy spam ally , 2 units of broadsides and 2 riptides in a space marine army under 1999kpts is not spam , and it would make the marine part of the list realy small.


For example, if I bring several Lascannons, and my opponent goes all infantry, then I can still use my Lascannons to engage his heavy elite infantry. But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Then do take bad AA units , take good ones who can switch from being AA to normal anti tank or anti meq. Yes the hydra is bad , don't buy it then. For the cost of 2 hydras you could buy a 4-5 broadsides and a riptide in resin.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 11:25:12


Post by: f2k


Makumba wrote:
So the counter to flyer spam is allies spam?

You can't realy spam ally , 2 units of broadsides and 2 riptides in a space marine army under 1999kpts is not spam , and it would make the marine part of the list realy small.


For example, if I bring several Lascannons, and my opponent goes all infantry, then I can still use my Lascannons to engage his heavy elite infantry. But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Then do take bad AA units , take good ones who can switch from being AA to normal anti tank or anti meq. Yes the hydra is bad , don't buy it then. For the cost of 2 hydras you could buy a 4-5 broadsides and a riptide in resin.


And so, again, the answer is to spam allies?

No, my regiment are zenophobic nutcases who will not, under any circumstance, work together with dirty zenos scum!

See, that's the problem. Flyers require such a hard counter that you're forced, like it or not, to abuse the allies-chart in order to protect yourself.

Now, if the Hydra had Interceptor it might not be as bad as it could then double as anti-infantry or even anti-vehicle in some circumstances. But alas...


Compare with Marines, for example. I do not need to abuse no allies to counter them. I could do a hard counter with tons of Plasma, yes. But I could equally well leave the Plasma at home and use the extra points to bring lots of extra bodies to help overwhelm the Marines in close combat. Plasma help and it's also usable against other targets than just Marines, but it's not a must-have.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 12:47:57


Post by: ZebioLizard2




Of course, this is just as Games Workshop intended it to be. First we all bought flyers. And then we bought AA-guns to counter them. Mission accomplished...


Don't you play IG? The one army ingame who usually had 3 flyers due to how powerful they were even as skimmers in 5th?

Course in all honesty they've been planning it for a while, considering armies in 5th slowly gained flyers even before 6th, DE having some, GK, BA, IG, Necrons.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 12:54:55


Post by: StarTrotter


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Of course, this is just as Games Workshop intended it to be. First we all bought flyers. And then we bought AA-guns to counter them. Mission accomplished...


Don't you play IG? The one army ingame who usually had 3 flyers due to how powerful they were even as skimmers in 5th?

Course in all honesty they've been planning it for a while, considering armies in 5th slowly gained flyers even before 6th, DE having some, GK, BA, IG, Necrons.


You know if you think about it, 40k planes are brilliantly designed. They are built in such a way they can fly at extremely low speeds


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 13:03:27


Post by: ClockworkZion


f2k wrote:
But if I bring a couple of Hydras and my opponent doesn't bring any flyers... Then what... I've just waisted a lot of points on a unit that's forced to Snapfire the rest of the battle.

Don't foget that Skyfire works on Skimmers too. So even if Tau or Eldar don't bring flyers you still have something to shoot at.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 13:09:55


Post by: A GumyBear


If you are really having that much trouble with AA as IG try reading the fast attack section and look at the vendetta entry, you will be greatly relieved.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 13:39:34


Post by: da001


 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

As others have pointed out, this is completely unfair for many armies.

Wolves and Sisters, to begin with, have zero viable options against flyers (assuming no-Forgeworld). And a no-heldrakes CSM player is exactly in the same position. Saying "screw the background and the play-the-army-you-want, just buy this brand new unit or go allies" does not sound as a fair solution, at least to me.

And completely broken units as the Heldrake that specialize in killing meqs are the reason CSM are becoming irrelevant. Playing "heldrakes&cultists"-CSM vs no-"heldrakes&cultists"-CSM is usually a massacre.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 13:46:29


Post by: StarTrotter


 da001 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

As others have pointed out, this is completely unfair for many armies.

Wolves and Sisters, to begin with, have zero viable options against flyers (assuming no-Forgeworld). And a no-heldrakes CSM player is exactly in the same position. Saying "screw the background and the play-the-army-you-want, just buy this brand new unit or go allies" does not sound as a fair solution, at least to me.

And completely broken units as the Heldrake that specialize in killing meqs are the reason CSM are becoming irrelevant. Playing "heldrakes&cultists"-CSM vs no-"heldrakes&cultists"-CSM is usually a massacre.


And don't argue better playing skills and tactics because that implies we are superior to that individual. We must look at it as though the two players are of relatively equal playing skill and luck.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 16:40:17


Post by: A GumyBear


 da001 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.

As others have pointed out, this is completely unfair for many armies.

Wolves and Sisters, to begin with, have zero viable options against flyers (assuming no-Forgeworld). And a no-heldrakes CSM player is exactly in the same position. Saying "screw the background and the play-the-army-you-want, just buy this brand new unit or go allies" does not sound as a fair solution, at least to me.

And completely broken units as the Heldrake that specialize in killing meqs are the reason CSM are becoming irrelevant. Playing "heldrakes&cultists"-CSM vs no-"heldrakes&cultists"-CSM is usually a massacre.


My buddies SW have no troubles with fliers, he simply has all his longfang packs with div priests and a fortification of his choice (lately its the skyshield) and fires away. My SoB can usually take them down with mass TL MM from immos. Those armies CAN deal with fliers, its just a matter of how many they can deal with before they get overwhelmed. By then it usually gets to the competitive level and fluff goes out the window


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 20:17:48


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


GoliothOnline wrote:
It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.



The additional cost per model goes down the more units you buy though.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 20:30:45


Post by: StarTrotter


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
GoliothOnline wrote:
It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.



The additional cost per model goes down the more units you buy though.


Drawback being you lock yourself out of vehicles though and in most factions it just means an extra bolter gun.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/28 21:55:03


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 StarTrotter wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
GoliothOnline wrote:
It would be nice if our troop selection wasn't Cultists or bust at this point.

I said this in another thread but, no one likes being forced into a HQ selection to unlock absurdly expensive troop choices.

294 Points for 10 Noise Marines - 7 Sonic Blasters + 2 Blast Masters and FNP is already hard on the point scheme. We shouldn't need to bring a bare naked 65+15 point lord just to make them troops.

Nurgle is even worse, try getting 240 points of Plague Marines bare naked only to invest 30 points into special weapons and realize you need to buy a Lord or take Typhus to unlock them as troops... thats another 230 points investment, for just unlocking them, let alone trying to outfit him to actually survive CC at some point.

Just to put that into perspective.

240 points squad of 10 Plague Marines

at 24pts/model

230 Points for Typhus

Factor his point cost into your Plague Marines at an addition of 23 points per model, effectively making your Plague Marines 47 points per model if you want them to be troops.

Bare Naked Lord is 65 Points + 15 points for Mark of Nurgle for a total of 80 points

divide his uselessness in points cost up into your squad and you're effectively paying 8 points extra per model. Not bad but he's absolutely garbage and a free Warlord kill if anything sneezes on him.

Optimal Chaos Lord of Nurgle

65 Base
15 Mark
20 Bike
55 points for Burning Brand and a Power Fist
25 Points for Sigil
Total = 180 points

Divide that up and you got 18 points extra per model just to unlock them as troops.



The additional cost per model goes down the more units you buy though.


Drawback being you lock yourself out of vehicles though and in most factions it just means an extra bolter gun.


No, as in, if you take 2 squads of 10 Plague Marines the cost is only 9 PPM "extra" as opposed to 18. Even then, you're still forced to take an HQ, so you can furthre subtract the cost of taking a bare-bones HQ from the Cult Troops. Further, no one else really takes barebones HQs anyway, so the cost for some of the gear could probably be considered "outside" the Plague Marine cost as well. Really, the only argument you have is that you're forced to take a Lord instead of a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince, but then again Vanilla Marines taking Bike lists have to do that too, as do armoured battlegroups, Wolf Guard lists, Sanguinary Guard lists, and so on and so forth. You're really not any worse off on that front than anyone else.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 01:02:37


Post by: Jancoran


 StarTrotter wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Bottom line, drakes are part of the codex so worrying about being spit on by sour grapes enemies who dont know how to spread out... meh.

I only use 1 Heldrake. I think its fine and the vector strike is awesome. Usually gets de fanged after one good shot. Sometimes 2.

If the enemy has no anti air, i dont know what to say. Any army that spends no resources on such an obvious need is asking forit.


I dunno. I still just think the Baledrake is too good. Nasty flamer, nasty vector strike, it's a painful combination. Also, I really can't entirely agree with your anti-air statement. There aren't even all that many factions with their own AA let alone good worthwhile not overpriced AA. Granted at least it's not Necron flying bakery level where having some means nothing. Drakes are basically one of the few good things about the codex. Problem being it is too good.


So let's think this through for a sec... Held rakes are not fighting alone. So if Three Drakes is too good... Why aren't they dominating when they play? We'll know the answer. They're not too good. They're too good WHEN it's allowed to do what it wants. But that only happens when the enemy makes no provisions against it which is not in itself an indictment of the unit but of the enemy.

You can SAY that you resent having to pay for anti air but what's the point? That's like resenting having to take meltas against hull spam!!! Hydras work against skimmers and flyers. Not just flyers. So sure if NO ONE ever plays those... Lol

The cheese moved. Some resent it. That's a choice. But the title of this thread was if chaos was irrelevant. How can it be when you can play 2-3 drakes? And I'm playing Night Lords w Raptors and winning so I don't buy anyone selling that chaos is irrelevant

Just taint true


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 02:10:27


Post by: StarTrotter


A combination of things. One, the CSM codex overall is a horribly balanced sub par codex. Two, the top tier codices actually have some nasty counters or have abilities that can largely ignore them. Even then, if you observe the competitive meta you can notice the only time CSM come in the tops it's because they were allied in with daemons specifically to give: 1 Heldrake, 1 squad of cultists, and either a cheap lord or a DP. It's pretty darn good and even with a bit of AA it still has a AV of 12 and an invuln of 5+ not to mention it will not die. I'm not saying it's the most broken thing of the world but it does out perform. Toss the unit in daemons, Eldar, or Tau and you'd probably see it played more.

Also I can't take your Night Lords with Raptors and winning as evidence. I've played with a friend that's won with pyrovores and I've bested people with a mark of tzeentch CSM army. Luck, differing skill levels, meta, overall build efficiency... there are a lot of factors that add to it. My big problem here is how is your exception the rule? How can you just toss away competitive values like they are nothing and only use your own experience as evidence?

Finally, the biggest difference between AA and AT is that AA just isn't as common. And no, allying should never be a requirement. Look at a CSM list. There's not really an answer to it besides just spamming guns and spending a turn to hopefully kill it, buying missiles with flak which really aren't good, or to get the dakkadrake which isn't as good as the baledrake by any means. As per them being good, bloody hell they can counter almost nearly half of the armies. AP3 that is actually good! Bikers devastated, tacticals and all Sv3, devastated. Even with 4 it is still somewhat nasty. Also helps that he can fly over, pop open a vehicle and flame the contents within with relative ease.

For that matter, I'll admit I don't really care for flyers in this game. Choppers and slower moving air vehicles? Alright then but these ones not as much.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 02:13:29


Post by: TheArchitect


I've only ever played a couple small scale semi-competitive games with my AL CSM, with Huron as Warlord, but I do find that infiltrating a flying DP with the Burning Brand and Dimensional key can work very nicely. Plus if things work out I can get 2 squads of CSM with bolters and ccw infiltrating. I've found my key thing is know the enemy, and yourself. CSM are more of a jack-of-all trades, master-of-non army so build a take all list with each unit holding a particular skill set. Focusing on CC isn't the way to go anymore, but adding a CC unit in a box to run the side of the board while you hold the enemy with concentrated fire is a tacticaly strong idea. Like I said, I've only played semi-competitive but I felt like I should give my little in sight.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 03:26:05


Post by: Jancoran


If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 03:36:46


Post by: StarTrotter


 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.


Incorrect. That implies that all units are equal for starters. It also implies that I am a superior tactician to my foe. Problem is, the game never will always have these two factors. Overall, CSM is one of the lesser codices. It, brought against a good eldar/tau/etc. player with at least decent list, assuming the two of you have an equal skill level, will lead to the eldar/tau/etc player winning the vast majority of the time.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 04:14:24


Post by: Jancoran


Actually it doesn't "imply" any of that"


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 04:45:08


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.


If this sounds a bit offensive, that's because it was ment to be...

"I beat my opponent with a synapse-less Tyranid list of nothing but gaunts and a death leaper! Tyranids are amazing and I have no idea why anyone would say the codex is bad. I proved that it isn't!"

Now, can you tell me how ridiculous that sounds?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 10:20:39


Post by: MarsNZ


 TheArchitect wrote:
I've only ever played a couple small scale semi-competitive games with my AL CSM, with Huron as Warlord, but I do find that infiltrating a flying DP with the Burning Brand and Dimensional key can work very nicely.


Don't mean to be a spoilsport but this isn't legal. Master of Deception allows you to nominate D3 Infantry units to infiltrate. Daemon Prince is a Monstrous Creature.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 12:15:58


Post by: hobojebus


 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.


Personal evidence means Jack all, we don't convict people in court just on the word of a witness, if someone came up to you and said the moon was missing you would not take their word for it.

Tournament s give us solid data and they show csm isn't competitive, the fact you can beat a friend with them means nothing for all we know he's a terrible general that builds crap lists.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 12:29:57


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


hobojebus wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:


Tournament s give us solid data and they show csm isn't competitive,


Still managed to contribute to the winning list of Adepticon. Yeah yeah, "BUT ALLIES!!!11!!!oneoneone" and all that, still part of the CSM Codex that contributed to the victory.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 12:46:23


Post by: StarTrotter


Indeed. Cultists and the heldrake with not a single marine in sight. It's really kind of sad to see how the only marines that really make a splash are White Scar bikers, Iron Hands, and Gravstar. Which all yet again avoid the standard marine.

I wouldn't really say that being in the tops as allies is too much praise though. Especially when it is basically to nab a prince that synergies with FMC spam daemons and/or a Heldrake which I would gladly see erased from the game (and maybe replaced with another troop deployment maybe?)


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 12:54:57


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 StarTrotter wrote:
Indeed. Cultists and the heldrake with not a single marine in sight. It's really kind of sad to see how the only marines that really make a splash are White Scar bikers, Iron Hands, and Gravstar. Which all yet again avoid the standard marine.


And yet you don't see anyone saying that Codex: Space Marine isn't competetive, despite it avoiding Tactical Marines like the plague. Why the double standard?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:00:23


Post by: ausYenLoWang


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
Indeed. Cultists and the heldrake with not a single marine in sight. It's really kind of sad to see how the only marines that really make a splash are White Scar bikers, Iron Hands, and Gravstar. Which all yet again avoid the standard marine.


And yet you don't see anyone saying that Codex: Space Marine isn't competetive, despite it avoiding Tactical Marines like the plague. Why the double standard?


mate thats a crock, the CSM allies that were brought in were a minor component, no stand alone list made from CSM has a chance, and thats why you never see them. thoes Daemon's lists are exactly what they are, they wanted MORE flyers, so had to get them from CSM, otherwise.. they would have left them at home. and the drakes even had the hades... which is more than odd.. because thats the weakest loadout for it

playing against mates in a friendly game sure, hell id even take them to a tourney, and with max use of FMC DP, trip drakes and min cultists, i would finnish where do you think? because lets be honest we KNOW its not anywhere near the top


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:02:34


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 ausYenLoWang wrote:

playing against mates in a friendly game sure, hell id even take them to a tourney, and with max use of FMC DP, trip drakes and min cultists, i would finnish where do you think? because lets be honest we KNOW its not anywhere near the top


And playing a Vanilla Space Marine list without allies wouldn't get you near the top either. Your point is?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:06:53


Post by: ausYenLoWang


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:

playing against mates in a friendly game sure, hell id even take them to a tourney, and with max use of FMC DP, trip drakes and min cultists, i would finnish where do you think? because lets be honest we KNOW its not anywhere near the top


And playing a Vanilla Space Marine list without allies wouldn't get you near the top either. Your point is?


wait what? are you saying SM NEED allies?

wish i had grav star, or half the stuff in that book, might ballance out the glaring holes in the csm book. the SM codex cocks a leg at the csm book and does a hefty tinkle. lets not even pretend that those 2 books are remotely close in power or ballance


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:11:49


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:

playing against mates in a friendly game sure, hell id even take them to a tourney, and with max use of FMC DP, trip drakes and min cultists, i would finnish where do you think? because lets be honest we KNOW its not anywhere near the top


And playing a Vanilla Space Marine list without allies wouldn't get you near the top either. Your point is?


wait what? are you saying SM NEED allies?

wish i had grav star, or half the stuff in that book, might ballance out the glaring holes in the csm book. the SM codex cocks a leg at the csm book and does a hefty tinkle. lets not even pretend that those 2 books are remotely close in power or ballance


You're dodging the question. If you went to somethign like Adepticon, would you be likely to place anywhere near the top with an army from just Codex: Space Marines? If not, why is there a double standard?

You may also want to note that not only the winner but the runner-up of Adepticon had CSM in it. There's clearly some stuff in there that has some potential, no matter how much you want to pretend it doesn't exist.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:22:42


Post by: ausYenLoWang


sure allow me to field a bunch of drakes that comein turn 1, 3 daemon princes, 2 units of cultists and we will start with that.

space marines eldar and taue were over 50% of the TOTAL armies represented.... csm was one of the least... what is this telling you?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:30:11


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:

playing against mates in a friendly game sure, hell id even take them to a tourney, and with max use of FMC DP, trip drakes and min cultists, i would finnish where do you think? because lets be honest we KNOW its not anywhere near the top


And playing a Vanilla Space Marine list without allies wouldn't get you near the top either. Your point is?


wait what? are you saying SM NEED allies?

wish i had grav star, or half the stuff in that book, might ballance out the glaring holes in the csm book. the SM codex cocks a leg at the csm book and does a hefty tinkle. lets not even pretend that those 2 books are remotely close in power or ballance


You're dodging the question. If you went to somethign like Adepticon, would you be likely to place anywhere near the top with an army from just Codex: Space Marines? If not, why is there a double standard?

You may also want to note that not only the winner but the runner-up of Adepticon had CSM in it. There's clearly some stuff in there that has some potential, no matter how much you want to pretend it doesn't exist.


You're also twisting the question.

Was the detachment for CSM Primary or Secondary?

Was the detachments for C:SM Primary or secondary?

Considering that the Adepticon lists had far more primary SM then CSM, with CSM being regulated to drake/dp/cultist for CD lists (Meaning it was primarily a secondary alliance list), what does that tell you? That SM is capable on its own, with addition from allies of other lists, but CSM isn't worth it as a primary for other lists, even with CD as allies.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 13:34:30


Post by: ausYenLoWang


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Spoiler:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:

playing against mates in a friendly game sure, hell id even take them to a tourney, and with max use of FMC DP, trip drakes and min cultists, i would finnish where do you think? because lets be honest we KNOW its not anywhere near the top


And playing a Vanilla Space Marine list without allies wouldn't get you near the top either. Your point is?


wait what? are you saying SM NEED allies?

wish i had grav star, or half the stuff in that book, might ballance out the glaring holes in the csm book. the SM codex cocks a leg at the csm book and does a hefty tinkle. lets not even pretend that those 2 books are remotely close in power or ballance


You're dodging the question. If you went to somethign like Adepticon, would you be likely to place anywhere near the top with an army from just Codex: Space Marines? If not, why is there a double standard?

You may also want to note that not only the winner but the runner-up of Adepticon had CSM in it. There's clearly some stuff in there that has some potential, no matter how much you want to pretend it doesn't exist.


You're also twisting the question.

Was the detachment for CSM Primary or Secondary?

Was the detachments for C:SM Primary or secondary?

Considering that the Adepticon lists had far more primary SM then CSM, with CSM being regulated to drake/dp/cultist for CD lists (Meaning it was primarily a secondary alliance list), what does that tell you? That SM is capable on its own, with addition from allies of other lists, but CSM isn't worth it as a primary for other lists, even with CD as allies.


thankyou, its 10pm here and im cooking haha so distracted, very well worded answer


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:00:45


Post by: da001


 Jancoran wrote:
If you can't win with it, then you can't win with it. But that's not the codex's fault. Ive demonstrated that.

Sorry if this was asked before but... which is your list? I am curious.

I do not play competitive but playing fluffy CSM has become really boring for me. I think the gap in power is too high. List?

Edit: ignore this. I am reading your blog.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:


Tournament s give us solid data and they show csm isn't competitive,


Still managed to contribute to the winning list of Adepticon. Yeah yeah, "BUT ALLIES!!!11!!!oneoneone" and all that, still part of the CSM Codex that contributed to the victory.

No.

Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists. I am sorry if I sound repetitive but it is obvious you missed this part.

We are talking about Chaos Space Marines here. Not about Heldrakes & Cultists. We all know Heldrakes & Cultists are great. Some (most) CSM players want some, you know, Chaos Space Marines in their Chaos Space Marines armies. Or anything that is not Heldrakes & Cultists.
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
(...)

You're dodging the question. If you went to somethign like Adepticon, would you be likely to place anywhere near the top with an army from just Codex: Space Marines? If not, why is there a double standard?

You may also want to note that not only the winner but the runner-up of Adepticon had CSM in it. There's clearly some stuff in there that has some potential, no matter how much you want to pretend it doesn't exist.

The stuff that has potential is: Heldrakes & Cultists.

Nobody pretends Heldrakes & Cultists do not exist.

The SM Codex has problems too. The basic SM is too weak, with Centurions, Bikes and Scouts taking all the fame. Still, there are many viable lists winning games with SM. And there are lots of fun stuff to do with chapter traits. As many other CSM players, I play SM too. I am getting a lot of fun from SM. Lots of viable options. CSM only has one single list: Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists, Heldrakes & Cultists. Heldrakes & Cultists everywhere.

It gets boring after a while.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:05:51


Post by: Martel732


Meqs are garbage for both CSM and SM. That's why people minimize their amount of *actual* meqs in both lists. Yes, C:SM can field more potent lists than CSM, but that's because of Tiggy and centurions, not the actual space marines themselves. The average tactical marine is a paste-eating loser.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:20:53


Post by: da001


Martel732 wrote:
Meqs are garbage for both CSM and SM. That's why people minimize their amount of *actual* meqs in both lists. Yes, C:SM can field more potent lists than CSM, but that's because of Tiggy and centurions, not the actual space marines themselves. The average tactical marine is a paste-eating loser.

While I completely agree with you, if the basic CSM meq were as "weak" as the basic SM meq I would be so happy....

I do not play competitive games, so meq SM, while being far from strong, are good enough for me. To use a nid simil, the SM meq is like a Tyranid Warrior, ineffective and not very useful yet still fun to play, and CSM meqs are Pyrovore equivalents. There are tiers in Garbageland.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:22:29


Post by: Martel732


 da001 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Meqs are garbage for both CSM and SM. That's why people minimize their amount of *actual* meqs in both lists. Yes, C:SM can field more potent lists than CSM, but that's because of Tiggy and centurions, not the actual space marines themselves. The average tactical marine is a paste-eating loser.

While I completely agree with you, if the basic CSM meq were as "weak" as the basic SM meq I would be so happy....

I do not play competitive games, so meq SM, while being far from strong, are good enough for me. To use a nid simil, the SM meq is like a Tyranid Warrior, ineffective and not very useful yet still fun to play, and CSM meqs are Pyrovore equivalents. There are tiers in Garbageland.


SM tactical marines are dumpster fires. You don't want to be them. Yeah, they can ATSKNF all day as they hit you with wet noodles and accomplish nothing.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:31:07


Post by: da001


I think we already had this conversation before...

While playing SM vs CSM (no Heldrakes & Cultists), ATSKNF becomes a big major advantage, as well as the rest of special rules. Getting for one single point Fearless and a chapter/Legion trait equivalent for all CSM units, while getting rid of Warriors of Chaos will balance the match. At the moment, SM vs CSM (without Heldrakes & Cultists) is just not fun, at least in small games.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:34:08


Post by: Martel732


 da001 wrote:
I think we already had this conversation before...

While playing SM vs CSM (no Heldrakes & Cultists), ATSKNF becomes a big major advantage, as well as the rest of special rules. Getting for one single point Fearless and a chapter/Legion trait equivalent for all CSM units, while getting rid of Warriors of Chaos will balance the match. At the moment, SM vs CSM (without Heldrakes & Cultists) is just not fun, at least in small games.


I haven't played against actual CSM with BA or counts-as IH in some time. Well, plague marines.

" (without Heldrakes & Cultists)"

I also haven't seen this in quite a while. There's a reason I call it C:Heldrake.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:43:01


Post by: MWHistorian


So, the help my SOB army get anti-air I should ally in Tau or I deserve to lose???
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long while.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Boring.
There are so many useless and sub-par units in the codex that its kind of sad. If your meta allows more fluffy armies the CSM can actually rock. But put them against a Taudar type list and they simply don't have the tools to cope with it.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:44:19


Post by: da001


Martel732 wrote:
 da001 wrote:
I think we already had this conversation before...

While playing SM vs CSM (no Heldrakes & Cultists), ATSKNF becomes a big major advantage, as well as the rest of special rules. Getting for one single point Fearless and a chapter/Legion trait equivalent for all CSM units, while getting rid of Warriors of Chaos will balance the match. At the moment, SM vs CSM (without Heldrakes & Cultists) is just not fun, at least in small games.


I haven't played against actual CSM with BA or counts-as IH in some time. Well, plague marines.

" (without Heldrakes & Cultists)"

I also haven't seen this in quite a while. There's a reason I call it C:Heldrake.
And I do believe you are not going to play against basic csm in a long time. Just like many other units, they have become something difficult to handle even in a casual game. At least for me.

I donĀ“t know, perhaps 7th edition does something to "balance" the game. But until then, it is Codex: Heldrake.



Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 14:45:54


Post by: Martel732


That brings up a good point: another way to classify the lists in 40K is by whether they encourage or discourage the selection of canonical units. Both C:SM and CSM discourage this.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:09:17


Post by: ausYenLoWang


 MWHistorian wrote:
So, the help my SOB army get anti-air I should ally in Tau or I deserve to lose???
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long while.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Boring.
There are so many useless and sub-par units in the codex that its kind of sad. If your meta allows more fluffy armies the CSM can actually rock. But put them against a Taudar type list and they simply don't have the tools to cope with it.


now i know what im about to say is close to blaspemy, but when i play against other marine armies i allow the flakk missile upgrade for ALL ML. +5ppm because lets be honest here +40 on a normal dev squad or equiv is the cost of 4 more ML in the first place... that softens it up a little more for those poor people that havent got upgraded codecies yet.

my AA though is a quad gun and dakka dakka dakka, from havoks, or oblits... and just go with weight of shots...


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:10:56


Post by: Savageconvoy


Just a heads up if you guys didn't know about Jancoran. He does this a lot where he overlooks actual issues and makes wild claims all the time. He advocates bad units all the time and does very little, aside from saying to check out his blog, to give an actual account of why his tactic works.

Long story short, if you argue with him that CSM is not good he will say "Use tactics" and call it a day.

On topic I'm reminded a lot of the Tau 4th ed codex when I look at CSM. There are good choices in there, but the bad choices outweigh the good. Most of the good units in there are crammed into the FA slot with a unit shining in just about every other slot.

For me I completely gave up on the codex a while ago, as someone that just started CSM with no insight on the previous CSM books. There was no real soul to the army. I hated that my Iron Warriors theme was only going to be in paint scheme alone. I hated that there are just so few real builds to the army even in a noncompetitive scene. That and Nurgle was one of my least favorite of the Chaos gods and I feel punished for not using them more.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:13:39


Post by: Martel732


 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
So, the help my SOB army get anti-air I should ally in Tau or I deserve to lose???
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long while.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Boring.
There are so many useless and sub-par units in the codex that its kind of sad. If your meta allows more fluffy armies the CSM can actually rock. But put them against a Taudar type list and they simply don't have the tools to cope with it.


now i know what im about to say is close to blaspemy, but when i play against other marine armies i allow the flakk missile upgrade for ALL ML. +5ppm because lets be honest here +40 on a normal dev squad or equiv is the cost of 4 more ML in the first place... that softens it up a little more for those poor people that havent got upgraded codecies yet.

my AA though is a quad gun and dakka dakka dakka, from havoks, or oblits... and just go with weight of shots...


Too bad I would never use ML to begin with, nor pay for flakk missiles even if I could.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:18:06


Post by: ausYenLoWang


Martel732 wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
So, the help my SOB army get anti-air I should ally in Tau or I deserve to lose???
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long while.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Heldrakes and cultists.
Boring.
There are so many useless and sub-par units in the codex that its kind of sad. If your meta allows more fluffy armies the CSM can actually rock. But put them against a Taudar type list and they simply don't have the tools to cope with it.


now i know what im about to say is close to blaspemy, but when i play against other marine armies i allow the flakk missile upgrade for ALL ML. +5ppm because lets be honest here +40 on a normal dev squad or equiv is the cost of 4 more ML in the first place... that softens it up a little more for those poor people that havent got upgraded codecies yet.

my AA though is a quad gun and dakka dakka dakka, from havoks, or oblits... and just go with weight of shots...


Too bad I would never use ML to begin with, nor pay for flakk missiles even if I could.


i think iv said it before, but ML on csm, never, i have 8 AC havoks and 8 LC havoks.. mmmm FW thanks for that

but on my BA, ML devs all the way, same as SW as well...


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:19:39


Post by: Martel732


BA ML devs are like the worst heavy choice in the whole book. Why would you do that? But not for CSM?


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:26:40


Post by: ausYenLoWang


Martel732 wrote:
BA ML devs are like the worst heavy choice in the whole book. Why would you do that? But not for CSM?


your rather take HB? not a chance... PC? is always a risk for infantry GH is lame.... LC too expensive really unless you want a tank hunter unit, though for double the price of a ML... and a MM... i am not walking devs to within 24" of them.. not a hope

and because i get Autocannons. weight of fire an AC that hits a flyer does so at the same str as a Flakk Missile. does a better job against other models, etc.. oh and cheaper...


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:27:57


Post by: Martel732


 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
BA ML devs are like the worst heavy choice in the whole book. Why would you do that? But not for CSM?


your rather take HB? not a chance... PC? is always a risk for infantry GH is lame.... LC too expensive really unless you want a tank hunter unit, though for double the price of a ML... and a MM... i am not walking devs to within 24" of them.. not a hope

and because i get Autocannons. weight of fire an AC that hits a flyer does so at the same str as a Flakk Missile. does a better job against other models, etc.. oh and cheaper...


I would take any of those over MLs, but your post sums up why I don't field BA devastators. Ever. Not when I have Stormravens and fast preds.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:34:34


Post by: ausYenLoWang


Martel732 wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
BA ML devs are like the worst heavy choice in the whole book. Why would you do that? But not for CSM?


your rather take HB? not a chance... PC? is always a risk for infantry GH is lame.... LC too expensive really unless you want a tank hunter unit, though for double the price of a ML... and a MM... i am not walking devs to within 24" of them.. not a hope

and because i get Autocannons. weight of fire an AC that hits a flyer does so at the same str as a Flakk Missile. does a better job against other models, etc.. oh and cheaper...


I would take any of those over MLs, but your post sums up why I don't field BA devastators. Ever. Not when I have Stormravens and fast preds.


id only take the ML, though fast preds are mmmmm moist... wishful thinking that chaos stole THAT tech, and the SR, is another fav of mine, though its really really expensive,

i do take PC every so often, and have a divi lib near by to prescience them, so that gets hot doesnt thrash them.. though im only casually playing BA now..


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:36:11


Post by: Martel732


Sadly, I don't think that prescience helps with PC gets hot. It's not a "to hit" roll.

The fundamental problem with the ML is that it doesn't do any job well enough to justify having it in my list. Any of my lists.

Fast preds and Stormravens are much better.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:37:34


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Martel732 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think that prescience helps with PC gets hot. It's not a "to hit" roll.


Having rerolls to hit lets you reroll the Gets Hot! dice of Blast weapons as well.


Chaos Space Marines becoming Irrelevant? @ 2014/04/29 15:51:23


Post by: Martel732


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sadly, I don't think that prescience helps with PC gets hot. It's not a "to hit" roll.


Having rerolls to hit lets you reroll the Gets Hot! dice of Blast weapons as well.


Oh, that's pretty nice, then.