Disclaimer: Yes, I am a developer on this project, yes, this is a self-plug. Now that we've gotten that out of the way this is an entirely new 28mm platoon-scale wargame in an original science fiction universe; if you're interested in buying into a game that has free rules updated live, miniatures sold as inexpensively as we can possibly make them, and a development team that takes game balance and audience feedback seriously you should keep an eye out for our Kickstarter launch.
EDIT: Unwarranted digs at the competition removed.
I welcome your posts, but taking a very clear shot at another company in the first post of your thread may not be the best way to go.
Point taken, post edited accordingly.
Reads much better now
I'm interested to see more designs. I'm hoping the renders we see have some diff helmet options because I can't help but see Kassadin from LoL in the present helmet and I hate that guy
Pictures of our prototypes and concept art that's going to turn into more miniatures/more armies are going up on the Facebook page now linked to in the first post. Alex, working on getting you that answer; Cincydooley, alternate helmets are on our list of stretch goals.
If you do go for HIPS plastic and outsource... please allow for sufficient lead time in your delivery dates. Be pessimistic. Then add a little bit more.
*yawn* generic space fantasy miniatures game. Don't get me wrong, it looks cool and it sounds like it might have an interesting backstory, but at this point it just seems like a re-hash of some very common industry tropes, and very much targeted at capturing the flavor and appeal of a certain other game (my guess is the one that you previously bashed in your original post) and trying to basically piggy back off of them and their dissatisfied customer base. While I don't fault you for it, I will say that at this point you're going to have to try harder to get my money, and I think the same goes for many others. You're entering a very crowded marketplace right now, I don't think competition has ever been more intense either, and money is a very finite resource (for most of us).
chaos0xomega wrote: *yawn* generic space fantasy miniatures game. Don't get me wrong, it looks cool and it sounds like it might have an interesting backstory, but at this point it just seems like a re-hash of some very common industry tropes, and very much targeted at capturing the flavor and appeal of a certain other game (my guess is the one that you previously bashed in your original post) and trying to basically piggy back off of them and their dissatisfied customer base. While I don't fault you for it, I will say that at this point you're going to have to try harder to get my money, and I think the same goes for many others. You're entering a very crowded marketplace right now, I don't think competition has ever been more intense either, and money is a very finite resource (for most of us).
Of this I have no doubt at all. We're not asking you to throw your money blindly at yet another generic space-fantasy miniatures game, we're not expecting to immediately convert fanatical devotees with our initial announcement. We think we can distinguish ourselves through well-crafted rules updated frequently to account for errors, subverting and messing with common industry tropes (e.g. if we were to include space elves, would our space elves have to behave exactly like everyone else's space elves?), and low-cost miniatures to keep the barrier to entry small; I understand and respect your skepticism, which is why we're planning on allowing players to look through all the rules without needing to commit any money.
If anyone is interested we are also looking for more early-stage playtesters to help ensure the rules are in top form before release; contact nate@kingmakergames.com with some variant of the word "playtest" in the subject line if you're interested and we'll get you the materials.
Alpharius- Hmm, those physical models don't seem to look nearly as good as the render (shown in the OP of the previous thread). Will copy the posts containing pics from the prior thread below.
Edit: Ah, those are just painted 3d prints, I think... hopefully not indicative of intended detail level.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Sword dude's pretty cool, but to be honest I don't need more Space Marines...
However, if someone would finally make great looking counts-as Sisters I'd buy them by the handful.
Sword dude's pretty cool, but to be honest I need more Space Marines!!!
I like them, will keep an eye on this
Those marines look interesting
agnosto wrote: So, basically two video game designers are making a not-40k miniature game....color me interested. Is it odd that I find it amusing that the lead guy worked for Blizzard? (Though it's a shame he didn't work on starcraft).
Ick, I hope he's not involved, though I imagine it'd say if he was on their site's team page.
Quite a few video game people involved on this. Several of whom were designers for Borderlands. That got my attention.
I know you guys aren't trying to go generic sci-fi, but I have absolutely no problem with that. Cheap sci-fi stuff that looks cool is always welcome on my table. So far, I'm interested in backing this project. I believe it'll be coming around the end of the month, yes?
Plus a 3D printed master painted up, that's also a Defiance tactic.
While I don't think 3D printers are the miracle machines a lot of people seem to, I think 3D printed masters painted up is a pretty common thing with any sort of prototype models. It's just a general proof of concept thing and I wouldn't tie that to Defiance or any of Reidy's torpedoed projects.
Would be cool to see some rules without having to sign up as a playtester.
As is, my 40k-replacement is Warpath, but while those rules are solid they're hardly deep. If you can go that one further, capture some of the intensity of games like Infinity but at a larger scale, you'll have my interest.
I don't intend any offense, but you are promising quite a lot when you state you want to produce your line in hard plastic, for which start up costs are high, and to sell the figures at a very low cost. Particularly since, so far as I am aware, you haven't published a miniature war game before, and your company appears to be a young start-up.
None of which means that you aren't genuine or can't pull it off - everyone has to start somewhere, and there aren't any leaders in the market today who didn't go through their "dreaming big in a small apartment while living on ramen and peanut butter" phase first. But do you already have arrangements with a factory to produce these plastic miniatures, and if so, do you have any examples of other work they've done to give you confidence in their ability to do quality casting? Do you have realistic estimations of the actual production costs of what you're attempting? How much logistical preparation and research has gone into this enterprise so far, and how many production practicalities are being left unaddressed, to be worked out after you're funded?
To be blunt, why should I invest in your KS campaign and trust you to deliver what you promise?
AnomanderRake wrote: Cincydooley, alternate helmets are on our list of stretch goals.
On that subject, assuming the crested aliens are otherwise human-shaped, would you consider adding alternate heads for humans wearing the same armour? In-universe it would allow for a more cosmopolitan faction if you're interested in that, but it would also let you sell the same sprues to fans of two different concepts - a "rubber forehead alien" army or an army of sci-fi women.
AnomanderRake wrote: Also, Mathieu we're unsure who Tony Reidy is but we support his assertions entirely.
Long story short, Tony was the millstone around Wargames Factory's neck. Big on promises, small on results.
chaos0xomega wrote: *yawn* generic space fantasy miniatures game. Don't get me wrong, it looks cool and it sounds like it might have an interesting backstory, but at this point it just seems like a re-hash of some very common industry tropes, and very much targeted at capturing the flavor and appeal of a certain other game (my guess is the one that you previously bashed in your original post) and trying to basically piggy back off of them and their dissatisfied customer base. While I don't fault you for it, I will say that at this point you're going to have to try harder to get my money, and I think the same goes for many others. You're entering a very crowded marketplace right now, I don't think competition has ever been more intense either, and money is a very finite resource (for most of us).
Of this I have no doubt at all. We're not asking you to throw your money blindly at yet another generic space-fantasy miniatures game, we're not expecting to immediately convert fanatical devotees with our initial announcement. We think we can distinguish ourselves through well-crafted rules updated frequently to account for errors, subverting and messing with common industry tropes (e.g. if we were to include space elves, would our space elves have to behave exactly like everyone else's space elves?), and low-cost miniatures to keep the barrier to entry small; I understand and respect your skepticism, which is why we're planning on allowing players to look through all the rules without needing to commit any money.
I'm not even a fanatical devotee, quite the contrary I'm pretty much done with games workshop and am in the process of divesting myself of the majority of my GW minis. As for subverting the common tropes, I would argue that if your space elves don't behave like other space elves, then they aren't really space elves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Mathieu we're unsure who Tony Reidy is but we support his assertions entirely.
You *might* want to rethink that statement ;( or at least do some research first...
Vermonter wrote: I don't intend any offense, but you are promising quite a lot when you state you want to produce your line in hard plastic, for which start up costs are high, and to sell the figures at a very low cost. Particularly since, so far as I am aware, you haven't published a miniature war game before, and your company appears to be a young start-up.
None of which means that you aren't genuine or can't pull it off - everyone has to start somewhere, and there aren't any leaders in the market today who didn't go through their "dreaming big in a small apartment while living on ramen and peanut butter" phase first. But do you already have arrangements with a factory to produce these plastic miniatures, and if so, do you have any examples of other work they've done to give you confidence in their ability to do quality casting? Do you have realistic estimations of the actual production costs of what you're attempting? How much logistical preparation and research has gone into this enterprise so far, and how many production practicalities are being left unaddressed, to be worked out after you're funded?
To be blunt, why should I invest in your KS campaign and trust you to deliver what you promise?
Pretty much this, mind if I ask what work have you done so far in terms of production related stuff? Have you gone out for quote? Have you done file review at all? Just because you have a guy who can make 3d models/stl files (or whatever format it is your manufacturer prefers to work with) doesn't mean you can actually *use* those models, its a common mistake when people try to get their 3d models converted to injection molded plastics. Unless you have industry experience, the typical result is you have to then pay an experienced professional to modify the files for production, which adds time, cost, and compromised designs, and upset customers.
I want to thank you all for your interest in War Prime. At the moment we are hard at work getting the rules cleaned up and sent out to play test groups. You are welcome to signup to be a play tester and when we open up more slots we will get you a copy of the game you can share with your group.
I want to apologize in advance. Normally I am all about full transparency, but to reveal my manufacturing company at this point would put my deal at risk. Other companies may approach them causing my costs to increase. I can say the company is a toy manufacturer.
After 20 years in the video game industry I have accumulated a long list of friends and contacts who have made building this project a lot easier than it would be for anyone starting fresh. I have a small team of talented artists. I had them build standard 3D Models in ZBRUSH. Those models are then run through a special program that understands the constraints of mold making.
These prototypes allowed me to see the scale of the miniatures and the detail areas so that I can make appropriate adjustments before doing a full manufacture run. As long as I had the miniatures in hand, I decided I would paint them. This further identified potential problems with the final model allowing me to make additional small changes before manufacturing.
As for Tony Reidy. I don't know him and he has nothing to do with this project. Because we don't know him we cannot support anything he does or has done in the past.
As long as we are being blunt. Kick-starting a project is not like buying an existing product from a store shelf. It's an investment in an idea. And investments are risky. I can tell you everything you want to hear and spin it all so it sounds good, but as we have seen in the past, even big name companies and personalities cannot guaranty success. I believe that I can convince you that what I am doing will succeed, but at the end of the day if you don't believe in the project or what I am telling you, then you should not fund it.
I will say that I am a big supporter of Kickstater and have backed almost 40 projects. I believe in helping the underdogs win against the big guys. I believe in being open and transparent (to the point of not damaging my company's deals that are still in development). And I believe in building great games.
I thank you for your time and interest. Now its time for me to get back to work so we can launch when I want to.
WarPrime wrote: Those models are then run through a special program that understands the constraints of mold making.
These prototypes allowed me to see the scale of the miniatures and the detail areas so that I can make appropriate adjustments before doing a full manufacture run. As long as I had the miniatures in hand, I decided I would paint them. This further identified potential problems with the final model allowing me to make additional small changes before manufacturing.
No amount of software will substitute for having your manufacturer review the files, every manufacturer has a different set of capabilities, tolerances, etc. and just because your software tells you that something is possible doesn't mean that the guys you're working with will have the proper machinery and equipment to do so. Fair warning, I've seen people make 3d models with the intent of having them produced, and technically speaking everything they did was 'correct', however the manufacturer/mold engineer wasn't able to make it work based on the equipment he had access to, which required a significant amount of re-modeling and adjustments to get the model into a state that they could work with without severely impacting quality.
As for Tony Reidy. I don't know him and he has nothing to do with this project. Because we don't know him we cannot support anything he does or has done in the past.
That's all I needed. This in print. And your third sentence is perfect.
WarPrime wrote: Those models are then run through a special program that understands the constraints of mold making.
These prototypes allowed me to see the scale of the miniatures and the detail areas so that I can make appropriate adjustments before doing a full manufacture run. As long as I had the miniatures in hand, I decided I would paint them. This further identified potential problems with the final model allowing me to make additional small changes before manufacturing.
No amount of software will substitute for having your manufacturer review the files, every manufacturer has a different set of capabilities, tolerances, etc. and just because your software tells you that something is possible doesn't mean that the guys you're working with will have the proper machinery and equipment to do so. Fair warning, I've seen people make 3d models with the intent of having them produced, and technically speaking everything they did was 'correct', however the manufacturer/mold engineer wasn't able to make it work based on the equipment he had access to, which required a significant amount of re-modeling and adjustments to get the model into a state that they could work with without severely impacting quality.
You are correct. That is why I am working with a modeler who is familiar with the manufacturing process including the process to create molds on sprues. He has also made miniatures for other recently successful Kickstarters. I am working with a manufacturing company that specializes in making toys. The manufacture has a quality control process that starts with the 3D model to make sure it works with their equipment. Additional quality control during the manufacturing stage. And a final quality control stage that reviews the work when it's done.
WarPrime wrote: As long as we are being blunt. Kick-starting a project is not like buying an existing product from a store shelf. It's an investment in an idea. And investments are risky.
Perhaps working with a toy company has skewed your perspective on the age range of your target demographic? Unlike children, investors hedge their bets by getting all the information they can about a project before committing money to it. As investments, all kickstarter projects carry some risk, but they aren't all equally risky. I have never invested in a kickstarter without asking creators questions first and checking whatever track record they have, and I have yet to be disappointed. It is because I approach each kickstarter as a potential investment, not because I confuse them with preorders, that I bothered to inquire about your project at all.
If you present yourself here as a representative of this project, it is entirely reasonable, not inherently hostile, to ask you about it and weigh your responses. If that grates on you because you have more important things to attend to, or customer relations isn't your wheelhouse, etc., no problem. I can relate; we seem to be equally "blunt," and to be honest, I prefer that in people. But particularly after the KS launches, you will need to have someone on your team who is willing to field backer questions and has the time and patience to do so. If you don't, it will cost you.
WarPrime wrote: I can tell you everything you want to hear and spin it all so it sounds good, but as we have seen in the past, even big name companies and personalities cannot guaranty success. I believe that I can convince you that what I am doing will succeed, but at the end of the day if you don't believe in the project or what I am telling you, then you should not fund it.
All true, but all self-evident, right? Being self-aware that KS presentation and communication is a social meta-game is fine, but it doesn't mean that you don't have to play that game, or that you can't play it honestly. How you play it, and how much your "spin" rings true to your audience, will affect how much trust you receive.
You are correct that all of my questions, regardless of how annoying they may be, are based on interest in your project. That is fundamentally a good sign.
I am Eric Sexton. Owner and the Creative Director of Kingmaker Games.
I don't mind healthy discussion and I certainly don't mind hard questions. If I came off as irritated that was not my intent. I have a company to run, and game to design, a Kickstarter to organize, social media to muster, a team to lead, and a wife that I love (read: don't want to lose). So needless to say, my time is going to be stretched a little thin for the next few weeks.
I like triple checking my writing to make sure that there is nothing that can be misconstrued or twisted into something it's not. I can see how this may make my writing come off as stiff, curt, or stern. I normally write the way I talk....lots of ellipsis, misused commas, an overabundance of spelling errors, and incorrectly Capitalized Words. For this reason I am hyper vigilant when it comes to talking in an open forum.
My only concern with answering direct questions is that we don't have 100% of our deals finalized. Wile we have a good idea of what we want and who we want to work with, it can always change. Unforeseen events may cause us to change some of our original plans and partners. Telling you "We are doing X" only to find out 2 weeks from now we are doing "Y" makes us look like liars or worse incompetent.
By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models. Not children's toys.
I hate playing games with people's expectations. I have seen to much of that crap in the video game industry. Flat out lying to inflate everyones expectation knowing that a certain percentage of people wont do follow up investigation to make sure it's on the level. I have too much self-respect to be deceptive like that. I believe that I have a cool enough idea that ,if I present it in a reasonably articulate way, it will provide the right information without being disingenuous.
Looks like there's some cool concepts here, and more alternative rulesets and models is always a good thing. I'm a strong believer in cross-compatible games and models, so free rules and a range of sci-fi minis means I'll be keeping an eye on this.
I assume this will get a retail release at some point in the future as well? I don't generally back kickstarters.
Being proprietary about the manufacturer? Fair enough.
Not a great way to elevate the industry though. Secrets don't last forever anyways, and if you don't have a decent enough relationship to trust a company that is able to expand into a new market on your referrals then either that says something about the way you do business or the way they do business, neither of which is inspiring.
You might as well say that you've got a decent deal in theory, but you can't guarantee it'll work out because your production partner might crawfish on you.
And I guess you might also say that your KS margins will be good (assuming the manufacturer doesn't up the price in the next six months) but your COGS will inevitably inflate with subsequent production runs.
weeble1000 wrote: Being proprietary about the manufacturer? Fair enough.
Not a great way to elevate the industry though. Secrets don't last forever anyways, and if you don't have a decent enough relationship to trust a company that is able to expand into a new market on your referrals then either that says something about the way you do business or the way they do business, neither of which is inspiring.
You might as well say that you've got a decent deal in theory, but you can't guarantee it'll work out because your production partner might crawfish on you.
Have you never heard of people keeping quiet about deals until the ink is dry on the contract? It's presumably a fairly new relationship - that's the point. You don't go plastering that all over town unless you're some kind of idiot.
weeble1000 wrote: Being proprietary about the manufacturer? Fair enough.
Not a great way to elevate the industry though. Secrets don't last forever anyways, and if you don't have a decent enough relationship to trust a company that is able to expand into a new market on your referrals then either that says something about the way you do business or the way they do business, neither of which is inspiring.
You might as well say that you've got a decent deal in theory, but you can't guarantee it'll work out because your production partner might crawfish on you.
Have you never heard of people keeping quiet about deals until the ink is dry on the contract? It's presumably a fairly new relationship - that's the point. You don't go plastering that all over town unless you're some kind of idiot.
If you need to rely on a contract in a business relationship, you have no trust. Not having a contract is silly. Relying entirely on a contract to define the extent of your relationship is unhealthy.
If you don't trust your manufacturer enough to rely on a quote within a time-frame of several months because you are afraid the manufacturer will increase the price quoted because you drove new business to the manufacturer... That's not a relationship I would want to be in regardless of the rates.
'Hey, I know I said I would do this for X, but you know, ever since you told folks that I had this capacity, business is totes booming. So...we're gonna have to re-negotiate that price if you want a production time-slot. You know how it is...It's like...out of my hands...business is business and all...and we never actually signed a contract.'
It makes some sense to keep things close to the chest when a supplier's services are not scalable. Even then, it doesn't make the relationship healthy to treat the good service you are getting from a supplier or contractor a secret.
In a retail product, what the Hell do I care whether your manufacturer is taking you for a ride? The finished product is offered to me at a certain price. In a Kickstarter it matters a great deal more because those relationships determine whether I get the reward I am supposed to get.
If you invest in a company, do you not want to know what suppliers that company intends to use?
Weeble1000, given that the thread started with a jab at people's buying expensive rulebooks that got later edited out, I'm guessing the WarPrime poster might not be the most skilled at knowing what not to say.
There was just no reason to mention that contracts are still being worked on or that they're worried about losing their spot in the production que if other people find out about their super secret manufacturer. There's no upside to that whatsoever. It can't help anything and only makes things look shakey like things haven't been figured out yet.
Saying nothing would have been better. And even better than that would have been to do the homework in advance to know what the different material costs and procedures actually are.
Heck, a better response to a question about miniature materials would be ask what the person would like and say that they'll figure it out before the Kickstarter launches. There's just no need to talk about secret manufacturers you may or may not end up working with yet.
As for the actual content shown so far, I'm indifferent. It might be that the paint job isn't doing the sculpt justice or that the 3d print that's being painted wasn't good enough resolution. Or an issue with photography, but I don't think the painted miniatures are looking like anything I'd expect in 2014.
The renders and overall design are alright. I like the art more than the grey renders.
frozenwastes wrote: Weeble1000, given that the thread started with a jab at people's buying expensive rulebooks that got later edited out, I'm guessing the WarPrime poster might not be the most skilled at knowing what not to say.
There was just no reason to mention that contracts are still being worked on or that they're worried about losing their spot in the production que if other people find out about their super secret manufacturer. There's no upside to that whatsoever. It can't help anything and only makes things look shakey like things haven't been figured out yet.
Saying nothing would have been better. And even better than that would have been to do the homework in advance to know what the different material costs and procedures actually are.
Heck, a better response to a question about miniature materials would be ask what the person would like and say that they'll figure it out before the Kickstarter launches. There's just no need to talk about secret manufacturers you may or may not end up working with yet.
As for the actual content shown so far, I'm indifferent. It might be that the paint job isn't doing the sculpt justice or that the 3d print that's being painted wasn't good enough resolution. Or an issue with photography, but I don't think the painted miniatures are looking like anything I'd expect in 2014.
The renders and overall design are alright. I like the art more than the grey renders.
As for the actual content shown so far, I'm indifferent. It might be that the paint job isn't doing the sculpt justice or that the 3d print that's being painted wasn't good enough resolution. Or an issue with photography, but I don't think the painted miniatures are looking like anything I'd expect in 2014.
The renders and overall design are alright. I like the art more than the grey renders.
That's pretty much how I feel. That 3D print is hopefully the issue and they need to do some corrective work on it and do a quick and cheap resin cast so we can all have a better idea of what it will look like in production. That said, plenty of miniatures Kickstarters have made a killing recently on a smile and a song so I don't think this will stop people from throwing money at it. I've been burned with restic so final material matters a great deal when I decide to purchase or back. That said, Mantic have shown that they have the ability to screw up hard plastic (hello men at arms that went immediately into the trash) so there's no guaranteed safety in material either.
WarPrime wrote:By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models.
Cyporiean wrote:Polystyrene, PVC, or ABS?
Yes, this. At this point of the discussion with the vendor there should at least be some clarity as to whether final material will be one of the styrenes or PVC.
I for one will buy nothing made of PVC ever again, from any manufacturer for any product line.
WarPrime wrote: I am Eric Sexton. Owner and the Creative Director of Kingmaker Games.
I don't mind healthy discussion and I certainly don't mind hard questions.
Alright, Mr. Sexton. For this, and particularly for your honest distaste for hype (which I share even though it really hasn't done me much good financially), you have a new newsletter subscriber. Your kickstarter is now on my radar. Good luck with this.
(Nothing bad, just confirming that you're one and the same.)
I'd suggest that you hire a professional painted to paint some of those 3-d prints. They don't need to be Golden Demon winners, but the tabletop level paint jobs on the figures you guys have shown does you no favours, and obscures some of the details on the prints.
To be frank, it still seems like this game is trying too hard to follow in the footsteps of GW and 40K, and hoping to pickup more people by going that route.
Just one look at the artwork shown and you can see stand ins for space marines, complete with ridiculous shoulder pads and roman-like insignia, a giant dreadnought stand in, etc.
Which really surprises me to see since these guys are all people working in the video game industry. Across the VG industry are strewn the corpses of games and studios that tried to copy the success of the big dominant games, like World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, only to find that people aren't looking for more of the same when they already have the original.
Thinking you can make the next 40K of miniature games is like thinking you can make the next WoW. It's not going to happen, and a small startup, no matter how talented, is not going to be able to pull away players from the behemoths that currently dominate.
Vertrucio wrote: Thinking you can make the next 40K of miniature games is like thinking you can make the next WoW. It's not going to happen, and a small startup, no matter how talented, is not going to be able to pull away players from the behemoths that currently dominate.
Not necessarily. If the rules are tighter, and the minis more affordable, I for one would be interested.
I think it's best if something other than "better rules and cheaper" is the main selling point. WarPrime should find some additional niche or selling point that makes it viable to more than just people who want a 40k-like but want to pay less. For example, rather than develop Warpath further, Mantic made a grid based board game like skirmish game with Deadzone. They may now go back and develop Warpath further, but finding the niche with Deadzone first was a real good move ("may PVC be cursed forever" aside).
The problem is, you might get enough to fund a kickstarter, but when the only growth you can do are people who have already invested into a different game, there is a problem.
When kickstarter first started being a thing, people always talked about how a kickstarter's backers were the only customers for the product and thus it wouldn't see actual sales once at retail. Well for most projects that wasn't true.
In this case, however, the customers after the kickstarter are ones that would already be embroiled in another game, one with decades of history, thousands of dollars invested, and countless hours of time. They'll also be competing with every single other not-40k bits and alternative miniature makers. So they'll have their work cut out for them.
I say all this not to put down these developers, but to just say, do better. Be a bit more original. If you're fellow video game developers, then I know you're not afraid of putting in the work.
Vertrucio wrote: To be frank, it still seems like this game is trying too hard to follow in the footsteps of GW and 40K, and hoping to pickup more people by going that route.
Just one look at the artwork shown and you can see stand ins for space marines, complete with ridiculous shoulder pads and roman-like insignia, a giant dreadnought stand in, etc.
Which really surprises me to see since these guys are all people working in the video game industry. Across the VG industry are strewn the corpses of games and studios that tried to copy the success of the big dominant games, like World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, only to find that people aren't looking for more of the same when they already have the original.
Thinking you can make the next 40K of miniature games is like thinking you can make the next WoW. It's not going to happen, and a small startup, no matter how talented, is not going to be able to pull away players from the behemoths that currently dominate.
Oh yes. The first warning sign was in the topic title. Straight out of the GW-coattails playbook - mash the word 'war' with some other verb or noun: Avatars of War, Warthrone, Warhell, Warmachine, Warpath, Kings of War... And now Warprime.
Vertrucio wrote: Not sure if you're being sarcastic or genuine. Hard to tell on the internet with just text.
I read it as genuine.
I will agree that the GW-influenced Space Marine designs are the ones that least interest me right now. What seem to be their Ork substitutes, which appear from the concept art to look quite different, interest me most.
I presume the picture above depicts a "savage Kelk."
There isn't any need for more Space Marine-alikes out there. I think there really is a niche available for a barbaric, brutal, not-necessarily-goblinoid sci-fi race that isn't hampered by GW's goofy Ork stylings. Savagery isn't always synonymous with slapstick buffoonery.
Some updates have come from the Facebook page talking about rules release shortly for those signed up on the news letter ect as well as info on the KS release. I hope they build up a bit more info before the KS. I mean the Marines really
are really not doing it for me. I prefer less of that and more sleek effective looking armor. I mean can those guys even check what is behind them?? That being said the concept stuff for everything else looks amazing. From the Savage Kelk to
the cyber elf things to the robots ect it all looks good. I hope if they do some two-army starter set that we can swap out one of the armies, as I assume the marines will be one of them. If the concept translates well from the the art then I am
down for the other races. (Also as a side note, I could have sworn they mentioned some plan to manufacture plastic on spruce. Does that limit the type of material they could use? I am unfamiliar with types of material except that PVC is not
Vermonter wrote: I think there really is a niche available for a barbaric, brutal, not-necessarily-goblinoid sci-fi race that isn't hampered by GW's goofy Ork stylings. Savagery isn't always synonymous with slapstick buffoonery.
I agree. Something humanoid without being hunched/grossly out of proportion. I'm liking the concept art of that alien race so far.
I was going to post the that photo but they look cool, if the "orks" of this universe are going to be reptile like then all the better I say that is great! Also @ Alex if you get a chance to go over the play style and such (and anyone else) could you post what you thought of it? I don't have any time these next few weeks so I didn't sign up but I would really like to know how the game is played!
I'm hoping for a super basic, pick-up-and-play rule system for this one. Not every game needs to have a million special rules. I'd love to have a sci-fi game where I don't need to have a massive rulebook next to me at all times.
The rules cover 9 pages, with another 9 pages for the three army lists. It does have some interesting differences compared to 40k, and if nothing else, the broad strokes look to be improvements. It's an IGOUGO system, but each turn is about half of what a 40k turn would be.
The three factions are the Humans, Amarant (crested female aliens) and Kelk (toothy aliens). Again looking at the broad strokes, they remind me of the three factions from Emperor: Battle for Dune.
The Humans have unique command and control options.
The Amarant are fast and have shields.
The Kelk are tough and cope better with damage.
Sounds interesting. What kind of model count does it recommend?
Also, is there any requirement to submit feedback if you sign up from a rules pack? Because I doubt I'd be able to really offer anything that constructive, but I'd like to give them a shot.
Paradigm wrote: Sounds interesting. What kind of model count does it recommend?
The absolute bare minimum legal army size is 5 models for the Amarant and 8 for the other two factions. A normal army size - for the playtest scenario, at least - looks to be 25-30 infantry and a dreadnought-equivalent.
Cool, so a mid-sized game with the option for expanding. I might sign up and give it a shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And email sent. I'll see if they get back to me today, and with any luck I might even be able to throw up a pseudo-batrep here once I've got a test or two down. Alternative rulesets are always a good thing.
They sent me the rules yesterday, and while I've yet to get a game in (I'm hoping to tonight at some point), I figured some more info on them might be appreciated here. Warprime, if you don't want the details'in the open' as such then shoot me a PM or post here and I'll edit this out.
On first glance, the rules look pretty good. Everything in the game seems to be largely based on a single mechanic, which is testing directly against your opponent's stats, kind of how WS works in 40k, except it applies to shooting and as well. Simply, your stat+d6 has to equal or beat their stat, so if I'm shooting a human infantryman's rifle (skill 3) and a Kelk with a agility stat of 6, I hit it on a 3+ (3+4=/>6), if I take the same shot at an Amarant with an agility of 8, I need a 5+ (3+5=/>6). I like this as it means it is actually harder to hit faster targets ect, whereas in a lot of other games, you just hit on a set score, which is simple but also sometimes unrealistic.
Squad makeup works differently to a lot of games I've seen in that you buy a squad as a single army list entry, but this in itself consists of teams. So a human Infantry Squad could consist of a Command Team (commander, 2-3 guys), 2 Manouvre Teams (3-4 guys) and a Fire Team (2 guys with a heavy weapon); this is one entry on the list, and the commander is still responsible for the squad at some times in-game, but at the same time you have far more freedom of movement than games based around larger squads. I can see the average 3-5 model teams in squads meaning the game is firmly about MSU, even hordes will split down in that way, and this could lead to a good tactical layer.
The damage done by weapons, both in shooting and CC, is determined by its own profile, and this includes speed (number of shots/attacks), damage (bonus on damage rolls), a penalty for firing on the move (I like this, it means some weapons are better at move-and-fire than others, moreso than just categorising them) and damage (how much damage each successful wound does).
The way damage is handled is also an interesting one: instead of removing one model per wound, you place damage markers on the unit that stay there the whole Action phase (this is where units move/shoot/fight. I note you can't ever do more than one of these). Once everything in your army has shot and fought, then damage is converted into dead models, with each model having a Health stat that determines how much damage it takes to put one down. For example, a Kelk has Health 6, so 6 markers are needed to kill one. This seems like a lot, but given how a fair few weapons do multiple wounds, it might work well. If there's anything I'm unsure about pre-playing, it's whether this way of resolving damage is really that efficient, or just trying to be different. We'll see, and I don't expect it to be massively complicated, but it may slow things down, at least at first.
So there you go, all the relevant info about how this looks. How it plays, I don't yet know, but I'll soon find out. Again, Warprime, if you'd rather this info wasn't so readily available, I'll take it down.
Curious as to what the creature is in the KS picture, looks cool. Really down for the savages (if I could get to see a solid render/ 3D model)| and down for the other non-human thing (once again after seeing a render or something) but I just cant make myself like the humans. Will skip on them but I would really like to see this KS go really really well (Just hope they dont make the same mistake some recent KS have made and then backslide....). I will be waiting on the 24!
There are a fair few in the playtest rules, to represent units being braced/enraged/shielded/other conditions, and to count damage, but they all seem to go away fairly quickly; most last a turn at maximum, apart from damage where excess counters stick around for the next round.
I also think it'd be easy to avoid using some, a lot of them are just aide memoirs rather than essentials.
We have finished releasing the images of the painted prototypes and there have been a lot of questions them. What is the material? Are they 3D Printed? How big are they. Will they be pre-painted when I get them? So I thought I would take this newsletter to talk about our miniatures. What we currently have. And what we will have when we launch.
Getting miniatures made from a 3D Model is a little more complex than you might be aware of. You can’t just take a 3D file and send it to a manufacturer. Once a 3D Model is made it needs to be posed, and each pose needs to be cut. The cuts and separations on the models are made to accommodate the silicon mold..so it doesn't tear and so that it's castable. From their manufacturing can begin.
3D Printing is not quite as difficult, but there are still several challenges. Models still need to be designed with the 3D Printing Process in mind. In addition, 3D Printing at a high quality is very expensive. And depending on the type of material and the quality of the print may end up having a gritty or stepped surface texture.
Our miniatures will be 3D Modeled, chopped up, and manufactured in plastic on sprues. We are currently investigating the best options for types of plastic and while we have our preference, we don’t want to commit our final decision until we have evaluated all costs and options.
When we go into production, our miniatures will come unassembled on sprues and will not be painted. Our goal is to provide affordable miniatures for wargamers and hobbyists who love painting and kitbashing their models. To that end pre-painting them would make the cost very high.
Our miniatures will be manufactured at the miniatures “standard” size of 28mm scale. So 32mm will be the typical high of the more epic units. The same size as most of the premium miniature products available.
The next newsletter should announce the Kickstarter launch date. Until next time. Keep on fighting and recruit your friends to help us win this war.
Hey everyone. Sorry I have been so silent this past week. Its been crazy busy. You have no idea how much work there is in getting a Kickstarter ready to launch. I know you guys have questions and I have been trying to answer them in the newsletters and on Facebook. It looks like some of the information is being passed along here to the forums so that is good.
I know you guys have been wanting to know what type of plastic we plan on using. I have been hesitant because the company we were talking with was being dodgy about the plastic they use....turns out they only use PVC. UHhh...well that sucks! As a result we dropped them as our manufacturer. And as of this weekend, I am proud to announce that we are looking at producing Polystyrene miniatures here in the USA. Unfortunately it also means we are going to lose our original plan to produce them on full sprue frames. I think this is a small tradeoff for the benefit of awesome high quality plastic we have all become accustom to with our premiere miniatures.
Its Ok if you share the OVERVIEW of the rules (just don't print the rules themselves) with the very clear understanding that they are in very early stage and everything with the rules are subject to change. Our plan is to have the rules ready for the public about the time the first batch of miniatures go out....Roughly 6 months from the completion of the Kickstarter. Our plan is also to release the rules for free. We will not be manufacturing books. The reason for this is simple. As game makers, the game rules and balance are important to us. We will not sacrifice good gameplay to sell miniatures. While I expect I will be very busy over the coming month, you can always email directly me with your questions and feedback: eric@kingmakergames.com (I will answer when I can)
About the races. I know everyone is not that excited about the humans. But its necessary when you are universe building to start with what you know and what is most familiar to people. And, a bit of a silver lining...once the Humans are out of the way, there are 5 alien races that we have planed for the immediate future. You know about the Kelk and Amarant. But there are two more races we have been showing our teaser images of. A Robot race and something a little more horrifying. And...there is one more race we haven't even shown early concept art for. So keep checking in to the Facebook page where we do frequent updates. Or sign up for the newsletter: http://www.kingmakergames.com/war-prime/
Thanks for you interest. I can't wait to show you what we have planed.
Well it really should be interesting to find a PS manufacturer in the US but if it can be done that would kind of be nice, its nice to see some stuff made in the US instead of china all the time (unless it cant be avoided). Also the news about the other aliens is great! I will not be sold on the humans no matter what at this point it seems but I am really digging the other stuff. If Warprime could get some renders or something for the Kelks and Amarant up I think that would go a long way of really building confidence with the backers. If my trust is earned with those models then I can trust you guys to do well on the rest. Also as a side note I enjoy this blunt no nonsense attitude, it seems different then how other KS project leaders talk to the people. I find it refreshing and at least it seems like we are all kept up to date because of it. Maybe thats just me. Either way I will be waiting for Tuesday!
Look its not that hard to find a producer in the U.S. There is a facility in Dayton, OH that does Revell models and did all the plastics for Mongoose when they had Starship Troopers.
Now you need to take your designs to a tooling engineer so he can lay out a mold. Won't be too hard as it sounds like you have half the work done for him already.
As long as it isn't Defiance Games that you're partnering up with, I'm still going to back this. Everyone else might not be interested in generic space men, but I sure as hell am! Bring 'em on!
Also, that "horrifying faction" is probably what that monstrous cyborg thing int he KS announcement art is from.
WarPrime wrote: I know you guys have been wanting to know what type of plastic we plan on using. I have been hesitant because the company we were talking with was being dodgy about the plastic they use....turns out they only use PVC. UHhh...well that sucks! As a result we dropped them as our manufacturer. And as of this weekend, I am proud to announce that we are looking at producing Polystyrene miniatures here in the USA. Unfortunately it also means we are going to lose our original plan to produce them on full sprue frames. I think this is a small tradeoff for the benefit of awesome high quality plastic we have all become accustom to with our premiere miniatures.
What do you mean by not "full sprue frames"? The issue remains that short of incidents like Mantic's Men at Arms being literal Chinese knock-offs of their original sculpts, polystyrene sprues are reliable. We've seen a lot of companies try to sell us alternatives to injection-moulded polystyrene sprues that are supposedly just as good while using cheaper moulds, and the results tend to be crap. If you're the exception to the rule, great, but that's why we're worried.
About the races. I know everyone is not that excited about the humans. But its necessary when you are universe building to start with what you know and what is most familiar to people.
Would someone like to come forward and say they are excited about the humans? I don't think the issue is that they're human - like I said, I'd love it if there were human heads included in the Amarant kits so we could have a human army in that style of armour - but that not everyone likes the Pauldrons! style of human armour we see here, in 40k and Starcraft, and in other places.
I don't own much in the way of scifi stuff- I think I've got a whole five space marine models to my name, and my Enforcers who still aren't built from Deadzone.
I have no brand loyalty, so if the deal is good enough, and there's enough crap included, I'd be down for some humans, restic be damned. I'll find a use for them at some point or another.
Now if we start talking mechs and vehicles, even from just a modeling perspective, I'd be far more interested in giving the humans a fair shake...
I too am liking the look of the humans, it's rather more practical and sci-fi than Space Marines, while still being a little ornate and slightly exaggerated. They look cool from the art, but so do the Kelk and Amarant.
KS in less than 24 hours! Let us hope they address a lot of the typical backer questions off the get to to prevent a lot of the confusion recent KS have suffered from. Also I hope for some more renders/models...
Hopefully they'll show more renders/masters, and include a photograph with a ruler! These seem like basic things. Outside of video game kickstarters, you need more than concept art.
Sinful Hero wrote: Hopefully they'll show more renders/masters, and include a photograph with a ruler! These seem like basic things. Outside of video game kickstarters, you need more than concept art.
They should just go the whole hog and get a line up wall made
Have a ruler n the middle, Then 2-3 models either side.
This should then be followed by photo shopped image with lines from the eyes or top of the heads(however your measuring) across the entire thing.
Just to continue letting the echo resonate in here- the more renders, sculpts, and concrete information, the better! Feed us every bit of info you guys have locked in place.
The locust comparison is apt, but these look better to me- more reptilian for one. Was never a fan of the bald heads of the locust. Or their names, for that matter. They look like lizards, not bugs!
Plus totally off topic, it's a shame we never saw a true GoW board game expansion with more of the weirder/ bigger locust stuff. The base game was pretty good! I'm not going to count the card expansions. I wanted plastic corpsers and brumaks!
Seeing the space marines, with art that reaaallllyyy makes it look like a GW knock off it's going to be hard to get people excited, unless there's something special. I can think of probably a dozen companies that sell really great Space Marine style models right now, so being asked to back another one isn't something I think would get people excited.
It's going to be compared to Games Workshop. There's no avoiding that, and it's fair, especially considering the cover photo on the facebook.
But I'm still going to take a serious look when the kickstarter launches. It could be good, especially the alien races.
Well I think they had a factory lined up but by the sounds of it the company was going to do it in PVC and they would not have that (good thing sticking to their guns about quality). I do find it a bit strange with the company snaffle but as long as they have renders and models out with rulers at the start of the KS, then I am fine. As long as they stick to quality I am good.
Alex C wrote: I really like the not-Orks/Krogans and not-Eldar/Asari, but the models shown so far are pretty bad. Hopefully it's just the paint job...
You do know that those models are 3D-printed early prototypes, right? The final models should look much better, if they're made by a company that knows what its doing.
Alex C wrote: I really like the not-Orks/Krogans and not-Eldar/Asari, but the models shown so far are pretty bad. Hopefully it's just the paint job...
You do know that those models are 3D-printed early prototypes, right? The final models should look much better, if they're made by a company that knows what its doing.
~Tim?
Then I look forward to seeing examples that show that they can produce better, or news of securing a quality manufacturer. Until then I will continue to judge the product by what they have shown so far.
With this starting tomorrow, I certainly hope they've got all their ducks in a row, especially since we all know if they don't Dakka will be a frothy mess with talk of pledges being pulled... before they've even pledged even.
There was talk of vehicles if funding hits high enough too. I want to see those walkers and 4 legged tanks!
Remember- rulers with your figures lined up with the industry standard mug shots!
So i have been talking to the devs for a few days now, and i am going to give my 2 cents on the matter.
As many have mentioned, right now the game looks like a bland 40k-clone, so i thought that the rules might be what would make this game different. After having read the rules however, i don't see what this game has going for it that the other hundreds of similar sci-fi games out there don't have. At the same time the devs seem to be very new to wargaming, and i am not sure that they know much about the wargaming scene or understand the difficulties of wargaming as a business.
Thus they are going to have to show something really impressive in this kickstarter to convince me that this is more than just another generic sci-fi wargame.
For those of you interested in the rules, i was asked not to show them in public, but right now they are almost a carbon-copy of the "aegis" house-rules. These were spawned from a "fixing-40k" thread on dakka 1-2 months ago: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/592293.page
Also, yet another mini gaming KS that fails to have rules, video and size comparisons (i.e. The three things everyone wants to know before pledging which anyone remotely familiar with a gaming KS should be aware of) in place BEFORE launching the campaign...
- No Rules
- No Mention of actual material used
- Unrealistic Funding Goal
It costs $20 more to pledge for two army sets as opposed to one...
At this point KS is no longer a new mythical beast... It's been out for ages, there are a large number of really good blogs, videos, etc. out on it's use. There really is no longer an excuse for launching a project like this.
Buying 2 or 3 army sets is more expensive than buying 1 in order to account for shipping, according to the creator, but then it magically gets cheaper to buy 4 army sets...
Alex C wrote: Buying 2 or 3 army sets is more expensive than buying 1 in order to account for shipping, according to the creator, but then it magically gets cheaper to buy 4 army sets...
I saw the creators comments.... I think they really need to reconsider their pricing...
Those three factors certainly get alarm bells ringing. As others have alluded to Kickstarter is not a new, shiny, thing any more and those three issues should be dealt with already. I think that backers are generally a lot more savvy with where and how they invest their cash. Too many people have been burned by backing projects that will likely never see fruition (hello Defiance), have major delays (a good few CMON examples here) or where the final product is not to the expected level (probably Robotech).
The thing is if the Warprime creators had addressed these issues with the clamour for 40k proxies/alternatives they would have smashed their funding goal already. I think proceeding with extreme caution on this KS is the way to go.
"I have been working in video games and painting miniatures for 20 years, and i am here to talk to you about my new line of miniatures. I am using my 20 years of game development knowledge to create a new line of miniatures."
Eric worked in video games as an "artist, animator, and designer". How does this knowledge translate into creating a new line of miniatures in a completely different market?
"About a year ago i started getting back into painting miniatures and realized just how expensive it had become. Looking at the price of materials involved, i felt like the high price in miniatures just didnt make any sense. We are not going to spend a lot of time and money building full color boxes that just get thrown away."
Does this take into account the price of tooling, or have they found a way around it? Also how much time and money can really be saved by not having "full color boxes"?
"My goal is simple: create awesome minis at affordable prices so that everyone can enjoy tabletop gaming. I want to invite you to join me in building this universe."
Am i the only one who finds it odd that the video is so centered around him, and not around the team as a whole?
Cyporiean wrote: Its a shame about what OnePageAnon brought up, with the rules being a bland 40k clone. Hopefully they can get their act together and fix these issues.
Actually, the rules are not even that. I would take a well-designed ruleset that is similar to 40k á la Warpath 2.0 over what i read here any day. Of course we should remember that this is just a development build and things are subject to change. I even offered my services (what with OPR moving toward 7.000 downloads by the end of the month), but i was shot down. As Thraxas said: "I think proceeding with extreme caution on this KS is the way to go."
Anyway all of this just reminds me how sad it is that a great looking game like fallen frontiers fell through.
I am increasingly thinking that these new companies should get traditional investment to produce 1 core sprue/boxed set and get it to retail. After that they can Kickstart the rest of the line giving the backer some confidence to invest their money as they have already produced a finished product. That way a lot of the issues that seem to crop up during fulfillment could be avoided as the creators already have the necessary business relationships in place.
I hope that the Warprime creators prove me very wrong and create a great game, with top rules and stunning miniatures. I just feel like they are rushing into it without a lot of the most basic aspects of the business covered.
I would be over joyed if these concerns could be met. I mean I want this to succeed with great overfunding but I do not think that has any chance of happening without more support/questions answered asap. I really do hope that the creators take a read over some of the comments and take advice. Any help they can get would be good to avoid an unfortunate Fallen Frontiers scenario.
The problem for me is, if I wanted a cheaper, 40k alternative why wouldn't I just play Warpath?
It's cheaper, the rules are already out, and it comes in a shiny box. The pictures they've shown aren't all that impressive. The minis look kinda of meh, and as we've all learned from relic knights, nice CAD renders to not always equal a good miniature.
Here is the thing, and this is just a general question (not trying to be a dick or anything), but does wargaming really need warprime?
There are plenty of companies already that offer quality proxys that are affordable and look great.
There are plenty of companies already that offer bulks of proxys that are extremely cheap.
There are plenty of companies already that offer 28mm squad-sized sci-fi games with this aesthetic.
So i am not really sure what the appeal is. If it had an amazing look to it, or amazing rules, or anything that could be defined as amazing then i would understand. Right now i am just confused.
OnePageAnon wrote: Here is the thing, and this is just a general question (not trying to be a dick or anything), but does wargaming really need warprime?
There are plenty of companies already that offer quality proxys that are affordable and look great.
There are plenty of companies already that offer bulks of proxys that are extremely cheap.
There are plenty of companies already that offer 28mm squad-sized sci-fi games with this aesthetic.
So i am not really sure what the appeal is. If it had an amazing look to it, or amazing rules, or anything that could be defined as amazing then i would understand. Right now i am just confused.
Exactly, Basically what is their unique selling point? If its just a clone with nothing different to add it doesn't bode well for its long term future.
Plus as has already been said, without the basics of the material being explained it won't do well
$40k is actually a realistic funding goal if they want to create this, but that's assuming they're not going with steel molds for plastic injection. It's a big project, and thus the larger goal. I can't fault them for being realistic in this regard.
There are rules, as others have posted about. But why they've chosen not to show them is beyond me. Even in an early state, having rules is a huge plus for kickstarters, especially in this day and age where people want to know that the game they're kickstarting has it together. As posted above, the rules are apparently a clone of a fan version of 40k.
Not talking about material is another issue. As a developer myself I understand the very real reasons why you might be hesitant to set a material, but it's best to just lay out the material options and specifically say that it's all based on the funding. Then, make it a stretch goal to have the game produced in materials that people like. Restic as the lowest goal, maybe resin or metal as one above that, or just have a series of large stretch goals with no rewards other than a unit already shown is converted to injection plastic.
I do notice that they, at least, have changed the color scheme for the human "space marines" to grey and gold, instead of the more blatant GW Ultramarine copies of blue and gold.
Only 24.2% is allocated to mold cost? Even in China, $9680 will only buy you about 60% of a single wargame-level mold from what I've heard, and in the US that will easily be an extra 50% of cost on top of that. I hate to be negative, but this will not be HIPS without 10x the funding at least, so I hope they have outside funding on top of this!
Just to add to the overall feeling, there's nothing here to make me want to put my hand in my pocket.
The sculpts so far are sub-mantic.
The price is slightly lower than mantic but paying now for delivery in a year cancels that out.
There are no rules yet.
The fluff so far is cack.
There is no confirmed material and the comments in this thread suggest they don't understand the issues around material choice.
The funding targets look unrealistic.
The 3d prints look fairly poor realizations of decent concept art.
The paint jobs scream amateur and make me think that level of quality will permeate the project.
This sort of project makes me look positively at mantic and after pledging for dreadball that's some achievement. If it funds at about it's funding level I'll watch with popcorn on hand as I await a crash.
So far this whole project just screams "Halo-" or "WoW-killer" to me, and we can all see how all those turned out(both franchises are still around for starters). Even the fact that they're from the video games industry suggests it, but shouldn't that tell them they need something unique and fresh to make it work?
Other than the 3D prints of the humans, have we seen any models o the other factions? I noticed the "starter" was to include the Kelp and the Cosmos Marines, but have they shown anything new yet?
Is there any point in going too hard on this one, surely it'll never fund? It seems a lot more like an elaborate prank than a real KS.
"War Prime" alone is enough. The background is derivative, the designs are generic, 3d prints are cheap and the paintjobs cheaper. Awful presentation of product.
It's setup like a business proposal from a bad 90s movie. Headshots? Seriously, headshots?
A pie graph that seems farcical, apparently 9.2% of their funding goal will be for 'marketing', anyone want to venture a guess what on earth that actualy means? Are they seriously suggestion they will take almost $4000 dollars from their funding goal to market a product they have already sold and advertised or are they taking it back for past expenses?
12% is for shipping despite international shipping costing extra, $4800 for US shipping ?
6.2% for 'damages'! That's almost $2500 worth of product they are apparently anticipating being broken by the blind lepers they've apparently hired to pack their parcels.
7.7% for 'fulfillment. Uhm, what? They're just adding random words that sound kickstartery at this point.
Prod me in a few weeks so I can find out if I participated in a weird episode of Punk'd.
First let me say that I'm not a fan of the sculpts except maybe the "lancer" not-heavy bolter.
Material:
We have worked hard to find a manufacture in the USA that makes polystyrene miniatures and we are happy to say we have succeeded.
The minis are made with plastic so it is recommended that you buy a hobby primer that is safe to use on plastic.
That seems to indicate that it's going to be, well polystyrene.
Scale:
Our miniatures will be scaled to the same size as the most popular 28mm miniatures games. This means that most humans will be approximately 28mm to eye level while other units like our heavy armored Lancers will be closer to 32mm.
Price point will be 24 models for $40 in a starter....not too bad and Dreamforge and Mantic are able to do something similar. As to speculation about the funding goal; they could have other funding sources or expect their initial goal to be smashed. Either way, it's fairly obvious (as has already been pointed out) that the $40k is a poke at GW and not indicative in any way of what it would cost to actually manufacture their current sculpts.
Looking at it a bit more, the Kelk are growing on me.
They've given themselves a fairly cushy lead-time with a year delivery date.
Edit: I've ticked the "remind me" button just in case I see something later on..
I wish them luck but I think this will be an uphill battle.
I'm really feeling like KS's are becoming "go big or go home" .. and the best bet for new wargames is to start small and affordable, build a following for a year or so, and then do a campaign to expand upon what's already out there.
that and make sure all of these common questions are answered before anyone needs to ask them.
I'm just going to have to bear the Fallen Frontiers cross forever. Another sci fi kickstarter with models I like (the background is terribad though) with absolutely no gameplay or rule details and shady as feth manufacturing details.
I'm stuck in some sort of Battlestar Galactica kickstarter experiment, where all this has happened before and will happen again. Why god/s, why?
Zond wrote: I'm just going to have to bear the Fallen Frontiers cross forever. Another sci fi kickstarter with models I like (the background is terribad though) with absolutely no gameplay or rule details and shady as feth manufacturing details.
I'm stuck in some sort of Battlestar Galactica kickstarter experiment, where all this has happened before and will happen again. Why god/s, why?
too be fair to ff the figures were very cool, the rules did need work and they should have been upfront about the material and scale before hand.
For this ks the figures look terrible, the rules are non existent on the ks site and the material is a mystery considering the sprueless hips that has been mentioned.
Zond wrote: I'm just going to have to bear the Fallen Frontiers cross forever. Another sci fi kickstarter with models I like (the background is terribad though) with absolutely no gameplay or rule details and shady as feth manufacturing details.
I'm stuck in some sort of Battlestar Galactica kickstarter experiment, where all this has happened before and will happen again. Why god/s, why?
too be fair to ff the figures were very cool, the rules did need work and they should have been upfront about the material and scale before hand.
For this ks the figures look terrible, the rules are non existent on the ks site and the material is a mystery considering the sprueless hips that has been mentioned.
Id still back ff again, this I wouldnt touch
imho of course.
Pardon my ignorance but they do say "polystyrene" on the KS page; does this include anything other than "hard" plastic?
OnePageAnon wrote: Anyway all of this just reminds me how sad it is that a great looking game like fallen frontiers fell through.
Agreed, but that only highlights how far behind this is- Fallen Frontiers had great art, sample models, painting, presentation... the only thing missing was any kind of clarity on how they would make the models until late in the campaign when it had already lost steam. I think it would have funded fine if not for the £90K ($150,000 in USD!!) goal.
WarPrime is light years behind where they were/are (and I hope Fallen Frontiers re-launches with more clarity on how they'll make the models, and succeeds).
agnosto wrote: Pardon my ignorance but they do say "polystyrene" on the KS page; does this include anything other than "hard" plastic?
Thanks.
It originally did not say polystyrene.
Earlier in this thread (page 3 or 4) they said they were looking for a USA based manufacturer, but the models would not be on sprues.
Then I can understand the hesitance but if things have changed and they make something that I'm interested in, I might be willing to back this one....or wait if/until it hits retail.
Anything but restic is my new mantra; Mantic has forever ruined my perception of that material.
agnosto wrote: First let me say that I'm not a fan of the sculpts except maybe the "lancer" not-heavy bolter.
Material:
We have worked hard to find a manufacture in the USA that makes polystyrene miniatures and we are happy to say we have succeeded.
The minis are made with plastic so it is recommended that you buy a hobby primer that is safe to use on plastic.
That seems to indicate that it's going to be, well polystyrene.
Their sculpts say otherwise. This:
...can not be cast in HIPS as is.
I note that the Kickstarter talks about their designers having worked in video games, and bringing their expertise across to designing wargaming miniatures. The problem there is simply that designing models for video games and designing miniatures for HIPS production are two very, very different things.
The minis they have shown would need some fairly extensive re-working in order to be viable for polystyrene. And as others have pointed out, their funding goal is nowhere near what would be required.
I don't think anyone calls Trollcast polystyrene. I have read that it contains some HIPS, but the exact mix is a trade secret, and certainly no one at Trollforged calls it polystyrene. They specifically point out that polystyrene cement will not work on it.
Artemis, that said as a person connected to Hasslefree I don't really think it behooves you to be criticizing so many other companies... I have had extensive exposure to trollcast- more than the vast majority of consumers and likely more than almost all companies other than Impact and a few others. I have found it to be excellent in many respects, but like anything it depends on having a part that is a good fit for the material. It shares a lot of polyurethane resin's properties, as Cyporiean points out, in that it is not good with really thin features and can be brittle, but holds detail extremely well.
I just think it would be best not to throw out insinuations like "let's be kind and say variable". I can directly point out to you and do a side-by-side comparison of models that have turned out excellently in the material and ones that haven't, and a lot of the reasons why.
That said, if WarPrime is just tossing out the idea of using Trollforged and saying "polystyrene", that would be misleading, as again even Trollforged does not say their material is that (and actually specifically say otherwise). I don't know if that's what they're doing, but they definitely should not consider it that. Also, other companies have listed Trollforged as their supplier in the past without actually working out a schedule with them; they are obviously otherwise engaged at the moment with their own campaign and a few others such as Impact's.
Yup, looks like another scifi game I'll drop my interest in. I like the Kelk a lot and was hoping they'd show more progress before launching their KS. But they're in an even more binding spot than Fallen Frontiers (which I also lost interest in). Companies really need to get a grip on the amount of preparation it takes to just launch a kickstarter even if a known company is handling it.
Like someone mentioned before, start small in order to secure the customers' faith and build up from there to a campaign in order to expand.
RiTides wrote: I don't think anyone calls Trollcast polystyrene. I have read that it contains some HIPS, but the exact mix is a trade secret, and certainly no one at Trollforged calls it polystyrene. They specifically point out that polystyrene cement will not work on it.
Artemis, that said as a person connected to Hasslefree I don't really think it behooves you to be criticizing so many other companies... I have had extensive exposure to trollcast- more than the vast majority of consumers and likely more than almost all companies other than Impact and a few others. I have found it to be excellent in many respects, but like anything it depends on having a part that is a good fit for the material. It shares a lot of polyurethane resin's properties, as Cyporiean points out, in that it is not good with really thin features and can be brittle, but holds detail extremely well.
I just think it would be best not to throw out insinuations like "let's be kind and say variable". I can directly point out to you and do a side-by-side comparison of models that have turned out excellently in the material and ones that haven't, and a lot of the reasons why.
That said, if WarPrime is just tossing out the idea of using Trollforged and saying "polystyrene", that would be misleading, as again even Trollforged does not say their material is that (and actually specifically say otherwise). I don't know if that's what they're doing, but they definitely should not consider it that. Also, other companies have listed Trollforged as their supplier in the past without actually working out a schedule with them; they are obviously otherwise engaged at the moment with their own campaign and a few others such as Impact's.
I said what I said about Trollcast because, well, it's true. I know Ed and I know the material but it has had extremely variable results. It wasn't as sarcastic as it apparently sounded, I was being serious
It wouldn't take long to find a number of serious issues with the material across various forums and it also wouldn't take long to find a number of glowing positive reviews either, that to me is pretty much the definition of variable. It's certainly kinder than spelling out the good and the bad.
I'd consider using Trollcast but it would have to be for the right project. He's done very well with Impact but they are all mostly much simpler sculpts and products. It has not done so well for more complicated things and at least 2 major projects were badly impacted by their association. Hopefully it'll get better moving forward.
I also don't think I suggested anyone 'at' Trollforged has ever or would ever call it polystyrene, in fact I was trying to say the opposite. Ed is quite clear about his material but it 'does' include HIPS so someone else may not be as clear and it does fit the sprueless profile.
(Also if I continue to post in these parts pople are going to get used to the fact that I don't tend to not say what I think about somethigng because I work for a mini company. Too much effort to second guess everythign I plan on typing so my choics are not post or just lose the odd customer who I offend in some way. So far it's worke dout ok, if it goes horribly wrong you'll see me disappear On the positive side I also don't get offended if someone doesn't like our stuff either, each to their own and all that. )
Took a good look at their campaign page, and here are some of my thoughts-
- The Kelk stuff is still all artwork. No 3D Prints at all.
- The big, googly fish-eyes of the Amarant have killed any interest I had in the race.
- The "horrifying" race appears to be space-zombies, judging by the artwork.
- The lancers design looks cool, as does the human snipers.
- The Kelk have some neat monsters they can eventually unlock.
(Also if I continue to post in these parts pople are going to get used to the fact that I don't tend to not say what I think about somethigng because I work for a mini company. Too much effort to second guess everythign I plan on typing so my choics are not post or just lose the odd customer who I offend in some way. So far it's worke dout ok, if it goes horribly wrong you'll see me disappear On the positive side I also don't get offended if someone doesn't like our stuff either, each to their own and all that. )
I welcome input from someone in the industry.
Input whether positive or negative can be stated in a neutral tone. Which would imply a lack of bias.
However, your tone thus far strikes me as overweening, prideful, and snarky.
True we may not know as much as you do about the materials, process, and the industry but, we are free to make our own assumptions, decisions, and arguments on our own.
If you want to weigh in on the material, processes, or industry please feel free. But don't deign to express that you alone are in the "know" and the rest of us are just idiots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The comments about derivative 40K. A bad 90s business plan. Is it a prank or a legit KS.
Not giving you the impartial position you profess to be your foundation.
Artemis- That's fair, I know Ed, too . However, I will again note that at least one of the campaigns affected did not even confirm things with Trollforged before listing them as their supplier. Which is why I said, if that's being done here, it would be an issue- every supplier needs lead time and an accurate estimate of how many parts will be needed before committing to a job. The fact that so few Kickstarter campaigns are working this out ahead of time is what is leading to major backlogs and delivery dates that are off by months (see WGF!).
I did read your comment of "let's be kind" as sarcastic, because if we look at the results I can, again, clearly point out why certain sculpts were not suited to the material and did not turn out well (and of course, the inverse, ones that turned out excellently!). I have a lot of much more detailed sculpts in it than Impact's, and I think people are going to be extremely impressed by what's coming out soon, too.
All that to say- basically, it's totally fair to post your opinion on matters, but in this particular case I believe I probably have significantly more exposure to the material than you, and so couldn't not address what was (seemingly) a sarcastic comment regarding it. Now that I see it's not sarcastic, I think it is fair to say at face value... but again I think things that are coming will really be showing what the material can do!
Heck, I've got a sample Aetherium model from AdeptiCon that is gorgeous in the material. I have no idea if that company ended up going with Trollforged or not, but it's all about communication with the supplier and making sure that sculpts are suitable for the medium. As Insaniak points out above, many companies claiming to be planning to produce in HIPS are clearly not doing this, since their renders would be absolutely impossible to make. But the same is true for any process... maybe if companies were putting in more legwork before having models made in PVC we would see better results even in what is a subpar medium.
(Also if I continue to post in these parts pople are going to get used to the fact that I don't tend to not say what I think about somethigng because I work for a mini company. Too much effort to second guess everythign I plan on typing so my choics are not post or just lose the odd customer who I offend in some way. So far it's worke dout ok, if it goes horribly wrong you'll see me disappear On the positive side I also don't get offended if someone doesn't like our stuff either, each to their own and all that. )
I welcome input from someone in the industry.
Input whether positive or negative can be stated in a neutral tone. Which would imply a lack of bias.
However, your tone thus far strikes me as overweening, prideful, and snarky.
True we may not know as much as you do about the materials, process, and the industry but, we are free to make our own assumptions, decisions, and arguments on our own.
If you want to weigh in on the material, processes, or industry please feel free. But don't deign to express that you alone are in the "know" and the rest of us are just idiots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The comments about derivative 40K. A bad 90s business plan. Is it a prank or a legit KS.
Not giving you the impartial position you profess to be your foundation.
Is there a particular part of anything I said that you seem to think is telling someone else what to think? Or professing that my opinion is somehow more valuable than yours/theirs because I happen to work in the industry? I'm pretty certain I didn't write anything like that so it's difficult to defend or explain myself really.
I'm a consumer just like you, I'm in the hobby just like you. My opinion on a product is 'my' opinion, and I am absolutely sarcastic when I don't like something, and do tend to poke fun at it, so will certainly admit to 'snarky' No idea how prideful or overweening applies when talking about something I had nothing to do with so again, difficult to reply to it.
To me this is the worst kind of bad kickstarter, a 40k knock off, badly organised, awfully presented and likely will never see the light of day. That's not a professional opinion, it's a personal one. It doesn't require any professional knowledge at all?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: Artemis- That's fair, I know Ed, too . However, I will again note that at least one of the campaigns affected did not even confirm things with Trollforged before listing them as their supplier. Which is why I said, if that's being done here, it would be an issue- every supplier needs lead time and an accurate estimate of how many parts will be needed before committing to a job. The fact that so few Kickstarter campaigns are working this out ahead of time is what is leading to major backlogs and delivery dates that are off by months (see WGF!).
I did read your comment of "let's be kind" as sarcastic, because if we look at the results I can, again, clearly point out why certain sculpts were not suited to the material and did not turn out well (and of course, the inverse, ones that turned out excellently!). I have a lot of much more detailed sculpts in it than Impact's, and I think people are going to be extremely impressed by what's coming out soon, too.
All that to say- basically, it's totally fair to post your opinion on matters, but in this particular case I believe I probably have significantly more exposure to the material than you, and so couldn't not address what was (seemingly) a sarcastic comment regarding it. Now that I see it's not sarcastic, I think it is fair to say at face value... but again I think things that are coming will really be showing what the material can do!
Heck, I've got a sample Aetherium model from AdeptiCon that is gorgeous in the material. I have no idea if that company ended up going with Trollforged or not, but it's all about communication with the supplier and making sure that sculpts are suitable for the medium. As Insaniak points out above, many companies claiming to be planning to produce in HIPS are clearly not doing this, since their renders would be absolutely impossible to make. But the same is true for any process... maybe if companies were putting in more legwork before having models made in PVC we would see better results even in what is a subpar medium.
Fair enough mucka, hopefully it will show us what it can do. Spincast plastic/resin is a definite 'will this work' think at the moment, a few companies are doing it and it's been very variable. Needs a couple of big solid projects behind one of them to make the material more 'go to' I think for anyone making more complicated stuff. But Impact have done 'very' well out of it so nobody can say it's crap.
Considering how often I'm sarcastic, I can hardly complain when someone takes a more tongue in cheek comment the wrong way
OnePageAnon wrote: Can anybody explain to me why revealing who the manufacturer is would be a bad thing?
I can't think of a good reason to not announce it.
Potentially they don't have a spot in their queue until the project funds and they are concerned that any attention given to the manufacturer might result in a flood of other work that would bump them way down the priority list.
So, either it's a new company or a company not known for gaming product...or a company with a negative reputation I suppose.
From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."
Their sculpts say otherwise. This
...can not be cast in HIPS as is.
I note that the Kickstarter talks about their designers having worked in video games, and bringing their expertise across to designing wargaming miniatures. The problem there is simply that designing models for video games and designing miniatures for HIPS production are two very, very different things.
The minis they have shown would need some fairly extensive re-working in order to be viable for polystyrene. And as others have pointed out, their funding goal is nowhere near what would be required.
Fair enough; I expressed ignorance of the material but I'm also unknowledgable regarding 3d modeling. I was simply posting what was on the KS page and drawing my own inferences.
OnePageAnon wrote: From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."
I don't understand what they're trying to say there...
Hard to believe the one won't THON/Fallen Frontiers too though.
OnePageAnon wrote: From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."
Yeah...so I guess my ridiculous supposition was right.
Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture.
Is silly. How would someone's success be risked by saying 'X is making our stuff'? Other than if you go 'Defiance Games is making our miniatures', which isn't going to risk anything for them.. but for you.
Sinful Hero wrote: - The big, googly fish-eyes of the Amarant have killed any interest I had in the race.
The first piece of art looked good - the next two push them straight into "Do Not Want" territory. I'm not a fan of the ears either - I was expecting their ears to lack a visible auricle.
I'm also not thrilled by the possibility of the Kelk and Amarant not being funded because people aren't funding the Humans.
Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture.
Is silly. How would someone's success be risked by saying 'X is making our stuff'? Other than if you go 'Defiance Games is making our miniatures', which isn't going to risk anything for them.. but for you.
Seems to be making some unpleasant assumptions about the manufacturers business practices unless none of these projects have put down deposits or anything until they fund. I don't deal with this sort of production but I assume there are no firm contracts without money changing hands. I'm not sure what potential miniature manufacturers are hovering around waiting to pounce on a plastics manufacturer that they apparently can't find on their own though.
First I have to watch Japan lose their game today, now I see that a lot of the suggestions we were making have not been implemented (yet I hope).
Was hoping to see some Kelk renders, or even a human vs kelk pack starter set of some sort. Really like those big lizards. I hope those can translate well into a 3D model.
Not liking those Amarant eyes at all though. Way too cartoony.
Their sculpts don't really do their concept art any justice, in my opinion. The human CA is good, and different enough from 40k.
Not a fan of their not-Orcs. They look like someone took the Uruk Hai from LotR, thickened them up, added a dash of reptile, and gave them guns. Still reads way too close to Uruk Hai to me.
Those things combined with unanswered questions keeps me well away. I really wish Fallen Frontiers hadn't been cancelled...
Man, this didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped it would. I did have high hopes for this, too. Still, it seems like a lot of you guys are complaining just for the sake of complaining.
I am increasingly thinking that these new companies should get traditional investment to produce 1 core sprue/boxed set and get it to retail. After that they can Kickstart the rest of the line giving the backer some confidence to invest their money as they have already produced a finished product. That way a lot of the issues that seem to crop up during fulfillment could be avoided as the creators already have the necessary business relationships in place.
This strategy certainly worked out well for Defiance.
OnePageAnon wrote: Here is the thing, and this is just a general question (not trying to be a dick or anything), but does wargaming really need warprime?
There are plenty of companies already that offer quality proxys that are affordable and look great.
There are plenty of companies already that offer bulks of proxys that are extremely cheap.
There are plenty of companies already that offer 28mm squad-sized sci-fi games with this aesthetic.
Care to share the names of some of those companies, because I'd be interested. Off the top of my head, the only companies that actually fall into those categories would be Mantic and Wargames Factory/Dreamforge. Now, if you're counting Maxmini, Kromlech, Bitspudlo, Spellcrow, Hitech, and Scibor, I absolutely wouldn't consider them to be "affordable" or "cheap." I'd say that they're comparable to GW's or FW's pricing. Possibly a bit better, but certainly not cheap. Not to mention that Maxmini and Kromlech only offer a few full figures, and even then, only Kromlech offers army bundles with their German Orks. So, who else out there produces cheap proxies that fit the 40k aesthetic?
Actually, they did say that they would rework the renders for plastic. As-is, these guys have their heads fixed to the bodies, but if you notice, they mention in the stretch goals adding in new heads. Plus it was mentioned that they would be doing some different shoulder armor as well. So, I imagine that the existing render was designed solely for the 3D printing and that it'll be tweaked for actual production with more appropriate cuts added in.
Sinful Hero wrote: So what you're saying is, the finished product will look very different from the render they've shown? And is that a good thing?
No, I said they're going to change where the parts separate, not resculpt the thing. Why would it look different from the render? All of the prototype figures were created using a poseable 3D render. I'd imagine they'll be using that exact same render for the production figures too, just with the parts separated differently.
also, if you look at the renders they've shown, some of them show the finished design without the shoulder pads, so those were clearly designed to be a separate piece. Actually, they look a lot better without them.
Barzam wrote: Man, this didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped it would. I did have high hopes for this, too. Still, it seems like a lot of you guys are complaining just for the sake of complaining.
I am increasingly thinking that these new companies should get traditional investment to produce 1 core sprue/boxed set and get it to retail. After that they can Kickstart the rest of the line giving the backer some confidence to invest their money as they have already produced a finished product. That way a lot of the issues that seem to crop up during fulfillment could be avoided as the creators already have the necessary business relationships in place.
This strategy certainly worked out well for Defiance.
Didn't Mantic Games start similarly to this idea? Kickstarting after having an established product? Though I'll admit they have their issues with materials and so many Kickstarters to manage, but for the most part they seem to be doing fine. And Defiance has other issues that are too many to list.
Spoiler:
OnePageAnon wrote: Here is the thing, and this is just a general question (not trying to be a dick or anything), but does wargaming really need warprime?
There are plenty of companies already that offer quality proxys that are affordable and look great.
There are plenty of companies already that offer bulks of proxys that are extremely cheap.
There are plenty of companies already that offer 28mm squad-sized sci-fi games with this aesthetic.
Care to share the names of some of those companies, because I'd be interested. Off the top of my head, the only companies that actually fall into those categories would be Mantic and Wargames Factory/Dreamforge. Now, if you're counting Maxmini, Kromlech, Bitspudlo, Spellcrow, Hitech, and Scibor, I absolutely wouldn't consider them to be "affordable" or "cheap." I'd say that they're comparable to GW's or FW's pricing. Possibly a bit better, but certainly not cheap. Not to mention that Maxmini and Kromlech only offer a few full figures, and even then, only Kromlech offers army bundles with their German Orks. So, who else out there produces cheap proxies that fit the 40k aesthetic?
You're right on this one. Affordable and good looking proxys aren't in abundance although there are lots of good looking alternatives. And aesthetics wise there aren't any games that come to mind with a 40k or War Prime feel. So I feel OnePageAnon went into hyperbole, no offense. It just looks like that.
Edit: other than obvious orks rip-offs in Warpath, but generally that game does not have a 40k/War Prime feel.
The real problem with War Prime is the lack of anything truly exciting (...yet at least). I've said I like the Kelk but the rules themselves are hugely important and all we've got is a summary of them to go on. So we can't really be excited about that. The miniatures themselves are the only thing left to be excited about but there aren't even renders for the other species yet and the 3D printouts aren't great. Ironically, I was telling my friend last night that this game had potential but that Kingsmaker needed some more time before launching the KS. Next day, they launch the campaign.
Sinful Hero: So what you're saying is, the finished product will look very different from the render they've shown? And is that a good thing?
Renders will never translate 100% to the final product, and they have to rework the existing renders to use for polystyrene production anyway. The only way the final product looking different from the render being a good thing is having less detail loss.
Barzam wrote: Actually, they did say that they would rework the renders for plastic. As-is, these guys have their heads fixed to the bodies, but if you notice, they mention in the stretch goals adding in new heads. Plus it was mentioned that they would be doing some different shoulder armor as well. So, I imagine that the existing render was designed solely for the 3D printing and that it'll be tweaked for actual production with more appropriate cuts added in.
It's not just a case of where they choose to cut it up, unless they go for an awful lot of little, fiddly pieces. The hydraulics on the waist are problematic, as is all the little intricate detail in the soft joints. They have panel lines running around curved surfaces, undercuts on the edges of armour plates, and those little circular details on shoulders, chest and shins that would need to be warped to point in the same direction as the mould pulls off.
Without these coming an 20 pieces, I don't see any way they can make that design in plastic without a considerable amount of fudging and lost detail.
I don't know about that. If Wargames Factory can pull off the crazy details that Kingdom Death has in multipart plastic figures, I'd bet that it's possible with these, too. Besides, the parts need not necessarily separate where those details like the hydraulics are. The torso could possibly separate in such a way that the back part, with some of the abdominal details is attached to the legs (much like Mantic's Dwarves) and the front torso half have the head. Or they could just mold it up with the whole legs and torso as a single piece with arms, head, and shoulders as separate parts. It's totally doable without destroying all of the detail.
OnePageAnon wrote: From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."
I hope it is not defiance, but why would that impact other kickstarters? It would only show us if the manufacturer made quality sculpts before and/or show us how loaded this manufacturer is with work orders.
Barzam wrote: I don't know about that. If Wargames Factory can pull off the crazy details that Kingdom Death has in multipart plastic figures, I'd bet that it's possible with these, too. Besides, the parts need not necessarily separate where those details like the hydraulics are. The torso could possibly separate in such a way that the back part, with some of the abdominal details is attached to the legs (much like Mantic's Dwarves) and the front torso half have the head. Or they could just mold it up with the whole legs and torso as a single piece with arms, head, and shoulders as separate parts. It's totally doable without destroying all of the detail.
Wargames Factory pulls off the level of detail they get by using alot of little fiddly bits. They produce the plastic models for Malifaux and those come in an odd number of peices, the models are amazing but fiddly. The last model made by them I assembled had three seperated peices that made up the head.
Wargames Factory produces stuff on a sprue and has no US based manufacturing so based upon the information given their not an option.
I'm just using WGF as an example that it is possible to retain that level of detail while still producing a figure in plastic. These figures might just have to be cut into a bunch of tiny pieces. We won't really know until we see how they finally decide to do it.
But this goes back to what I said earlier. Some people seem to just be looking for something to complain about.
Barzam wrote: I'm just using WGF as an example that it is possible to retain that level of detail while still producing a figure in plastic. These figures might just have to be cut into a bunch of tiny pieces. We won't really know until we see how they finally decide to do it.
A lot of people have more exposure to this, and so they really do know, at least in part...
The fact is that Wargames Factory and Games Workshop are absolute wizards when it comes to making figures in high impact polystyrene (HIPS). No one else comes close to being able to do what they do, except Renedra (and they're in the UK, not the US).
It takes a company experienced with making miniatures in HIPS to pull it off well. The only wargaming miniatures company I know of who has been able to go with a supplier who does not normally cast miniatures and get good results in HIPS is Hawk Wargames. And that's because he's such a wizard himself that he was able to do all the hard work of making the models such that they could be molded for production in HIPS.
This leaves only two possible explanations:
1. WarPrime has not done their homework and is planning to use a company unfamiliar with making miniatures in HIPS
2. The more likely option, WarPrime is mis-using the word "polystyrene" and is planning to use a miniature caster that is US-based, but not one that produces in HIPS
I think it is the second option, personally... but the fact is they are either out of their depth, or not being forthright... so neither option is very good, imo.
Alex C wrote: LOL @ their picture of minis next to a ruler.
They don't get it AT ALL.
This thing is just one big, continuous, hilarious failboat.
I guess I can see how you might think that you've done what you were asked in that picture. But in a bolshy union work to rule kind of way. Or a not really knowing what you are doing kind of way. There's going to be so many giggles coming from this campaign.
"I know some of you have been asking for pictures of the miniatures with a ruler. I just added a new image that shows the Elite, Lancer, and a standard black round 25mm base (the sized used for infantry units in the most common 28mm war games) next to a ruler. I hope this helps."
I think he's having a bit of sport now. That is just hilarious. Why would he think we wanted the models lined up before a ruler, and not measuring their height?
Just saw their new update, and i am 99% sure that everything they have was part of a scrapped video game concept that they are re-working into a miniature wargame. I cannot think of any other reason why they would have all of these detailed 3d renders already made that only NOW they have to re-work to fit the scale and tooling.
Anyway, here is some more stuff from their FAQ that will keep your faith in this project strong:
"You made video games….why are you making tabletop miniatures?
I wanted to build a digital turn based game for longer than you can imagine. But getting a turn based game funded is almost impossible. So we thought if we started small, built a tabletop miniatures game first, then we would have the brand and fan loyalty that would let us make the game ourselves."
"What distinguishes you from all your competition in the miniatures wargaming space?
Our game will always be free to download and play.
Cutting out some of the nice (but unnessisary to the game) things like full color boxes that get thrown away (or chopped up to be used on bases).
No one questions why there are dozens of different car manufacturers."
It's like they literally have no idea of what is going on in the wargaming world, and again i ask how much money they can really save by not having full color boxes. Anyway i had been chatting with this guy for a while, and you wouldn't believe some of the stuff he said. Some of the quotes i could give you are straight up facepalms.
So basically they see this game as a revenue stream to fund the creation of a not-40k/Starcraft TBS, because they couldn't get funding elsewhere as nobody fancied sparring with the lawyers from GW and/or Blizzard?
If you'd like to use this thread to explain that you won't be backing this project, that is fine.
If you'd like to politely point out the issues you think the campaign has made, that is fine.
What isn't fine, is to be dismissively rude, such as calling the campaign a joke or implying that there is some sort of impropriety going on without any concrete evidence suggesting such.
So please remain polite and classy at all times if you'd like to continue commenting.
From a distance, those 3d prints don't look bad. They're starting to grow on me, warts and all. The lancer especially.
Has anyone asked the creator to get a ruler standing up next to the figures so we can get a better sense of scale, maybe standing next to a few other figures?
highlord tamburlaine wrote: From a distance, those 3d prints don't look bad. They're starting to grow on me, warts and all. The lancer especially.
Has anyone asked the creator to get a ruler standing up next to the figures so we can get a better sense of scale, maybe standing next to a few other figures?
He was asked to show a pic of minis next to a ruler, and we were treated to the above pic...
That's probably not unusual with a unestablished creator, but I'm fairly sure they will hit 40k.
Reaper avoided the U shape by giving away more and more stuff for free so the deal became better and better as it went along.
It is by far the exception not the norm
And I am fairly sure these guys will not hit 40k. I'm also fairly certain most of them have never even played 40k if they don't know what 'post pics of your stuff next to a ruler' means.
It's considerably more difficult to comment on this kickstarter now jokes have been banned
Well besides it being a shame I was enjoying this thread but on a more serious note he did finally put a ruler beside the model vertically so now it actually can be measured. From reading the comments it really doesnt seem like they understand how to make models/ run a KS at all. The backers are very understanding and walking them through how to do it step by step it seems. The one thing you got to give this KS is no matter how badly prepared and misunderstood it was, the backers seem to be helping a lot this time (versus the usual flames). This is just weird....
That's probably not unusual with a unestablished creator, but I'm fairly sure they will hit 40k.
Reaper avoided the U shape by giving away more and more stuff for free so the deal became better and better as it went along.
It is by far the exception not the norm
And I am fairly sure these guys will not hit 40k. I'm also fairly certain most of them have never even played 40k if they don't know what 'post pics of your stuff next to a ruler' means.
It's considerably more difficult to comment on this kickstarter now jokes have been banned
Getting better as more and more backers hop on is typical of most all kickstarters. Earlier board games have an incline(or what I know of does). It was mostly before people knew that sale would get sweeter, and kickstarter was still new to a lot of backers. If I knew what to search for, I would assume relatively unknown creators will all have an incline.
Of course these are just a small sample, and I cherry-picked from memory so I could be totally wrong. This kickstarter was also slightly hyped beforehand, and we still haven't seen the "U" shape. So I just think that because it's an unknown creator this will have a slow start and eventually pick up steam. Considering that it was at 10k last I checked, I don't think they'll have a problem hitting 40k. Hopefully they'll fix more issues as well to bring some goodwill in.
Initially I couldn't understand why people asked for a ruler next to the minis,their layout shows clearly their height (32 and 33,5 cm).Then I saw the height placed in question since the creators have already managed a very quick loss of faith in their abilities.Seems to me obvious these people have nothing to do with the wargaming/miniature industry and 'cause some other manufacturers (CMON, Mantic etc) had hundreds of thousand $$$$$$ collected through their KS, they thought of grabbing some of that
"The video game industry is a tough nut to crack and very hard to compete in, so why not go into miniature wargaming which seems easier?" The key word is "seems"....
People are being far too gentle and patient with these creators, hard to understand this behavior. I only came up with a single reason to explain it. It's called "Made in the USA"
For their sakes they better have more stuff prepared than what they've shown.
Hope all works out for them,but mostly hope everything works out for everyone backing this project.
Where can I find the 32mm on that Imperial tape measure? Sure, I could convert the measurements; but as a prospective customer why am I being asked to do that work? (yes I do realise they're a US company, but even US gamers use 28mm/32mm etc when describing figure scales).
Also, those are some pretty chunky custom bases, ideally the tape should start at the top of those, not the bottom.
But they are using an imperial tape measure to try and demonstrate a metric measurement scale.
Now I *could* convert the inches to mm if I wanted, but it would be so much easier if it was done by the creator.
I understand that imperial measurements are the norm for the US, so getting a metric ruler/ tape measure might be harder than it is in the UK (it might not, I've never been to a US DiY store), but not making that effort and understanding why mm is relevant really does paint more of a picture that these guys don't understand this market and what they are doing in it.
Well I love the look of the artwork and the aesthetic and planted $100 ($125 for us foreigners! and will see how it goes.
Its only just started and it has been a bit all over the place quality wise but they are being open (Bar the manufacturing thing) However I recently bought some mantic deadzone stuff to paint up and my mate just cant get why I bought them as they are ABS and have mold lines everywhere etc etc, but to me that's not an issue, you just clean up the figures, ive done it on every plastic model I ever made, wargaming or display model.
However I will hover over the remove pledge button if substantial new renders\prototypes, actual physical updates start appearing. Otherwise its Gates of Antares all over again :(
They need both a better painter and a better photographer... thick paint and flash photography are not a good combination, the pics look terrible and are covered in jpg artifacts.
Not sure about the sculpts either, they look like Void or Warzone sculpts from the 90's. Again, the paintjob really just reinforces this.
Rick_1138 wrote: However I recently bought some mantic deadzone stuff to paint up and my mate just cant get why I bought them as they are ABS and have mold lines everywhere etc etc, but to me that's not an issue, you just clean up the figures, ive done it on every plastic model I ever made, wargaming or display model.
Deadzone is probably PVC, not ABS. ABS should be more like HIPS, the good stuff.
Rick_1138 wrote: Ah, well its dark grey hard plastic not on sprue, so whichever is the more poor
Sounds like PVC, I believe Mantic have changed their PVC formula from the crap that was the early Dreadball stuff to make it harder, but I don't own any of it, so take it with a pinch of salt
Backer: "Just to let you know that when people asked for a shot of the miniatures next to a ruler they meant in a way that would help determine the overall scale and height." Creator: "Yeah. I know what people want. Based on how much we have been told we are going to get sued by the other really big sci-fi game war-game maker, we have been avoiding direct comparisons like putting a picture of their miniatures on our website and KS page."
Again i am not sure that they understand how this all works. If GW wants to sue them it's not going to be because they put a size comparison picture on display. I really wish there was a way to comment on the kickstarter without backing, because it appears the creators have given up on commenting here on dakka.
Anyway, how many of you would back a new kickstarter campaign for fallen frontiers with correct sizes, materials and rules? What do you think the funding goal should be to make it a success?
Imho I don't think this is the place to discuss the FF campaign. As much as this Warprime creation seems to lack a lot, it still demands our respect for whichever effort the people behind it put into this.
I wish they'd come back here. For as much as we're giving it a hard time and joking about it, there's a lot of info that others have put up that would be to their benefit.
I think another factor is a LOT of us have been doing the Kickstarter dance for the last few years, and a certain level of fatigue and wariness have definitely settled in. Plus we've experienced plenty of stumbles and roadblocks, and learned quite a bit in the process.
I know if I ever have the gumption to do a Kickstarter campaign of giant armored anime dragons, I know I'll be turning to Dakka for feedback!
Have they said anything about how many pieces they plan for each figure to be made out of?
scarletsquig wrote: They need both a better painter and a better photographer... thick paint and flash photography are not a good combination, the pics look terrible and are covered in jpg artifacts.
There is nothing wrong with flash photography, it's just godawful flash photography
Vertrucio wrote: Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.
And it's the usual same few posters too.
Just to clarify - I' m not whining , I don't have to convert it because I wouldn't be buying these models whatever scale they were in as I think that they aren't very good.
I'm pointing out shortcomings so that either the team running this can gain from critical feedback or others thinking of running a campaign can learn to prepare in advance what the market will expect. And because it entertains me to see businesses develop in the same way that I quite enjoy watching the Apprentice or Dragons Den - sometimes I am amused by the ineptitude, sometimes I am impressed by people's vision and passion, sometimes I learn things I didn't know - these are all good things.
I have learnt more in my life and career by people telling me what I've done that they don't like than people patting me on the back and mouthing platitudes.
Vertrucio wrote: Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.
And it's the usual same few posters too.
Ditto
Finding it hard to get to grips with the forum atmosphere if I'm honest. It's ok to insult other members for asking for a miniature's size, one of the two most important things you can't see with your own eyes, but it's not ok to make a joke about a wargaming kickstarter that doesn't know anything about miniatures?
It's a shame, because at times the discussions on these campaign threads threatens to get very interesting, not just about the specific KS in question but about the nature of crowdfunding in general, with contributions from both industry insiders and long-time gamers who have 'been around the block'.
These discussions could be of some use for prospective KS campaign makers, as well as those currently running a campaign looking to work out how they could increase their funding base. The cross section of Dakka posters, in terms of age, location, games played, professional experience etc must be the most varied on the web (for wargaming) which makes it an excellent place to conduct even passive market research.
Sadly, it only takes one 'whiners' comment and the whole thing collapses again into a petty slanging match of little use to anybody (for the next few pages, anyway).
To be frank, with potential backers like you, who needs detractors?
See, I do understand that some people got screwed over, partially, by other kickstarters.
But it's not really to the extent that the amount of negative posting indicates. And I wonder how many actually were part of those.
From the level of going into every kickstarter thread, and latching on to every issue, and often making snide of conspiratorial remarks in every post, you'd think they got screwed out of all their money in a big way. When in reality, the biggest issue I've seen most of these people encounter was the restic material surprising them with some sub par casts.
And heck, I actually understand all the issues people bring up, just look back and you'll see a rather long post from me outlining a serious problem. But that was a single post. Single. Post. Not the typical pile on I've been seeing, then additional conspiracy theories and name calling, that's happening right now.
The funnier thing is that, if you look at other recent kickstarter threads, the ones having the most problems are the ones people thought would be fine, like the newest issues with the 15mm mech where the caster disappeared.
And the usual comment about, "doesn't know anything about miniatures" is the silliest. Most of the people comment also wouldn't know a thing about actually making miniatures, or they wouldn't be saying that of people actually doing the miniature making.
Nor does this kind of pile on actually help all that much to other kickstarters, because it's always attached to that namecalling and conspiracy. And what's worse, instead of doing its job of informing the public or kickstarter creators, it just create that negative malaise for not reason than to create more malaise. The information was already posted, anything more isn't for other people, but rather for your own want to spread your discontent.
Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.
Barzam wrote: I'm just using WGF as an example that it is possible to retain that level of detail while still producing a figure in plastic. These figures might just have to be cut into a bunch of tiny pieces. We won't really know until we see how they finally decide to do it.
A lot of people have more exposure to this, and so they really do know, at least in part...
The fact is that Wargames Factory and Games Workshop are absolute wizards when it comes to making figures in high impact polystyrene (HIPS). No one else comes close to being able to do what they do, except Renedra (and they're in the UK, not the US).
It takes a company experienced with making miniatures in HIPS to pull it off well. The only wargaming miniatures company I know of who has been able to go with a supplier who does not normally cast miniatures and get good results in HIPS is Hawk Wargames. And that's because he's such a wizard himself that he was able to do all the hard work of making the models such that they could be molded for production in HIPS.
This leaves only two possible explanations:
1. WarPrime has not done their homework and is planning to use a company unfamiliar with making miniatures in HIPS 2. The more likely option, WarPrime is mis-using the word "polystyrene" and is planning to use a miniature caster that is US-based, but not one that produces in HIPS
I think it is the second option, personally... but the fact is they are either out of their depth, or not being forthright... so neither option is very good, imo.
I just want to praise this analysis, great stuff.
Yeah plastic molding, for our ideosyncratic little hobby is a small, small field. We might want to add Reaper to the list of manufacturers but their Bones is a softer plastic than HIPS and I think they manufacture Bones in China.
Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?
WGF has come a long long way in a just a few years and is now doing amazing stuff both for their own lines and for others. But it was a steep learning curve.
As we become savier about Kickstarter promises I think it's incumbent on the company to share as much information as they can to build confidence.
Vertrucio wrote: To be frank, with potential backers like you, who needs detractors?
See, I do understand that some people got screwed over, partially, by other kickstarters.
But it's not really to the extent that the amount of negative posting indicates. And I wonder how many actually were part of those.
From the level of going into every kickstarter thread, and latching on to every issue, and often making snide of conspiratorial remarks in every post, you'd think they got screwed out of all their money in a big way. When in reality, the biggest issue I've seen most of these people encounter was the restic material surprising them with some sub par casts.
And heck, I actually understand all the issues people bring up, just look back and you'll see a rather long post from me outlining a serious problem. But that was a single post. Single. Post. Not the typical pile on I've been seeing, then additional conspiracy theories and name calling, that's happening right now.
The funnier thing is that, if you look at other recent kickstarter threads, the ones having the most problems are the ones people thought would be fine, like the newest issues with the 15mm mech where the caster disappeared.
And the usual comment about, "doesn't know anything about miniatures" is the silliest. Most of the people comment also wouldn't know a thing about actually making miniatures, or they wouldn't be saying that of people actually doing the miniature making.
Nor does this kind of pile on actually help all that much to other kickstarters, because it's always attached to that namecalling and conspiracy. And what's worse, instead of doing its job of informing the public or kickstarter creators, it just create that negative malaise for not reason than to create more malaise. The information was already posted, anything more isn't for other people, but rather for your own want to spread your discontent.
Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.
What conspiracies btw? I've missed them I think.
As for the rest, surely the fact that there are so many negative comments is more of an indicator that the kickstarter is not all that good rather than some indicator that people just like to say bad things for no reason? I mean I'm sure there are some trolls out there but we aren't on a youtube thread here, it's a forum about a cottage industry with a, compared to things like youtube, limited reach.
Are you not capable of just ignoring posts that just say 'crap' with no other comment? Most of the negative comments on this thread have been quite specific it seems, pointing out exactly what it is they don't like. That's the nature of public discussion surely? People say what they actually think about something.
And I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to accuse this particular kickstarter about knowing nothing about miniatures. It's incredibly badly organised, the comments from he creator are somewhat lacking in knowledge and the fact that they have now uploaded a second photograph of their minis next to a ruler without quite understanding the question alone is a huge pointer in that direction.
If I uploaded a kickstarter and a thread like this popped up with a number of non-troll posters all saying I was doing something wrong or even just laughing at how bad it was I'd actually take a long hard look at what I was doing, cos the odds are it ain't right
Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.
Which might suggest that this campaign has issues.
Here's an issue that's been bugging me since the start of this one. The sculptor is a guy called Alain Viesca - the blurb on the KS page says "Alain has already played a key role in several successful Kickstarters ..."
Now I've never heard of Alain Viesca, so I don't know whether the role he played in the other Kickstarters was to lead production, concept art, sculpting or what - and I don't know whether these Kickstarters were for music albums, technology etc. So I just took a little time to google him. He's a great artist - pen and ink, painting, comics etc.
Potential Red Flag for me - is he like the kid who designed the Torn Armor stuff - dabbling in 3D for the first time - designing miniatures that can't be cast? Dig a little further and find that this guy has sculpted a bunch of the Raging Heroes stuff - now it's not to my tastes, but it shows he has proper form, here's a name in this Kickstarter team that has worked successfully in the miniatures field - lots of people have liked his work.
Why keep that info hidden (I don't mean that maliciously) - I'd be shouting about it - "We've got this guy - you liked him on <these> GW proxies, you'll love him on <Our> GW proxies".
Do you see how criticism can be helpful? Do you understand that if lots of people think that you are doing it wrong, the odds are that you are doing it wrong?
Barzam wrote: I'm just using WGF as an example that it is possible to retain that level of detail while still producing a figure in plastic. These figures might just have to be cut into a bunch of tiny pieces. We won't really know until we see how they finally decide to do it.
A lot of people have more exposure to this, and so they really do know, at least in part...
The fact is that Wargames Factory and Games Workshop are absolute wizards when it comes to making figures in high impact polystyrene (HIPS). No one else comes close to being able to do what they do, except Renedra (and they're in the UK, not the US).
It takes a company experienced with making miniatures in HIPS to pull it off well. The only wargaming miniatures company I know of who has been able to go with a supplier who does not normally cast miniatures and get good results in HIPS is Hawk Wargames. And that's because he's such a wizard himself that he was able to do all the hard work of making the models such that they could be molded for production in HIPS.
This leaves only two possible explanations:
1. WarPrime has not done their homework and is planning to use a company unfamiliar with making miniatures in HIPS
2. The more likely option, WarPrime is mis-using the word "polystyrene" and is planning to use a miniature caster that is US-based, but not one that produces in HIPS
I think it is the second option, personally... but the fact is they are either out of their depth, or not being forthright... so neither option is very good, imo.
I just want to praise this analysis, great stuff.
Yeah plastic molding, for our ideosyncratic little hobby is a small, small field. We might want to add Reaper to the list of manufacturers but their Bones is a softer plastic than HIPS and I think they manufacture Bones in China.
Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?
WGF has come a long long way in a just a few years and is now doing amazing stuff both for their own lines and for others. But it was a steep learning curve.
As we become savier about Kickstarter promises I think it's incumbent on the company to share as much information as they can to build confidence.
It's not just who, in fact I have never really had an issue with companies naming their manufacturing partners, I probably wouldn't. It's about the money. If someone said 'We have a manufacturing partner' without naming them and had given a goal of $40000 a sprue, I wouldn't care, that's a reasonable costing and new manufacturers could be trying it out every week for all we know.
However this, slightly laughable, pie graph...
... shows that this kickstarter has put aside $9680 for manufacturing. That is not a reasonable costing even for China, and as they have a big 'Made in the USA' stamp on their page it's considerably less reasonable. At that point I think it's totally fine to start questioning then on it. Again, not necessarily to name their partner as 'We aready have $100000 from outside investment, this is just the rest we need' is an acceptable answer imo.
These questions are not going to go away, we've passed the easy money stage of Kicksarter. If you aren't an established company then you are going to need the answers to these, and probably more, from this point onwards.
Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?
No idea but they clearly aren't miniatures focused as they designed the initial molds to cut up a terminator sized models into 30+ individual pieces with almost a dozen seams running across the front of the model and things the size of space marine HEADS split down the front into two pieces. Unfortunately, both Ninja Division and Palladium were just fine with that layout and Palladium even called it "almost perfect" but luckily the overwhelmingly bad feedback got *some* of it changed.
Do we know who's doing the manufacturing for Robotech?
No idea but they clearly aren't miniatures focused as they designed the initial molds to cut up a terminator sized models into 30+ individual pieces with almost a dozen seams running across the front of the model and things the size of space marine HEADS split down the front into two pieces. Unfortunately, both Ninja Division and Palladium were just fine with that layout and Palladium even called it "almost perfect" but luckily the overwhelmingly bad feedback got *some* of it changed.
These questions are not going to go away, we've passed the easy money stage of Kicksarter. If you aren't an established company then you are going to need the answers to these, and probably more, from this point onwards.
Exactly.
The "Golden Age of Kickstarter" is over in the sense that promises and concept art alone will be sufficient.
More information, planning and clarity up front are needed now, and will be a benefit to all involved.
Creator Eric J. Sexton 23 minutes ago
Hey Phil,
If we did injection moulds they would cost about $4000 per mold. When we first started building this campaign the numbers for the molds and manufacturing was flipped. The cost of the plastic was much lower and the molds were much higher. Now we are using a company that has a special process that does spin casting with their own custom material. The molds are crazy cheep but the cost per mini is a lot more expensive. We are giving you guys a good price by not taking as much profit as other companies expect to make per mini.
Latest Update - so this would seem to be either Trollcast, or (and I really hope that this isn't a remote possibility) Defiance trying to pass themselves off as a manufacturing company again.
Such as the conversation we're having now. Even if I hadn't stepped in to comment, the negative posts would have just kept piling up until the thread was a majority of them.
Which might suggest that this campaign has issues.
Here's an issue that's been bugging me since the start of this one. The sculptor is a guy called Alain Viesca - the blurb on the KS page says "Alain has already played a key role in several successful Kickstarters ..."
Now I've never heard of Alain Viesca, so I don't know whether the role he played in the other Kickstarters was to lead production, concept art, sculpting or what - and I don't know whether these Kickstarters were for music albums, technology etc. So I just took a little time to google him. He's a great artist - pen and ink, painting, comics etc.
Potential Red Flag for me - is he like the kid who designed the Torn Armor stuff - dabbling in 3D for the first time - designing miniatures that can't be cast? Dig a little further and find that this guy has sculpted a bunch of the Raging Heroes stuff - now it's not to my tastes, but it shows he has proper form, here's a name in this Kickstarter team that has worked successfully in the miniatures field - lots of people have liked his work.
Why keep that info hidden (I don't mean that maliciously) - I'd be shouting about it - "We've got this guy - you liked him on <these> GW proxies, you'll love him on <Our> GW proxies".
Do you see how criticism can be helpful? Do you understand that if lots of people think that you are doing it wrong, the odds are that you are doing it wrong?
Alain Viesca is a great 3d-sculptor in my opinion. He has done sculpts for the Modern Pinup Miniatures kickstarter:
Alain Viesca is a great 3d-sculptor in my opinion. He has done sculpts for the Modern Pinup Miniatures kickstarter:
See - that's really nice looking stuff (not my tastes, but obviously talented) - don't hide his light - shout about how great he is - bring in fans of his work.
There is only one US based manufacturer that can deliver "plastic " at this scale ( volume of product ) for that price.
And I think it is perfectly reasonable to look askance at these guys.
I am not one to attack new comer simply for the fact they are new comers but these guys really do not seem to have the first clue about table top gaming or minis outside what they have likely gleaned from searching Kickstarter. The ruler lying flat should have been the first clue and then the ruler stood with the inches side on to the minis should have been the confirmation. I am US based and even in my earliest days I knew that minis are measured in millimeters.
" What difference does it make whether or not they are minis lovers? "
Excellent question....... The difference it makes will only show itself when the going gets rough in the fulfillment of this kickstarter and the company's practices moving forward after the kickstarter closes.
For me failing the delivery of my first kickstarter was never an option. NO MATTER WHAT. That was because being a minis maker is what I WANT to do whether it is profitable or not ( Dameon can attest to my stubbornness on that regard. ). That means that even if it does not profit me to do so I will see the effort through to the end no matter what comes. It also means that when I plan a new project I am looking into the future well beyond the delivery of the kickstarter.
Trust me it is VERY important whether a project is run by an enthusiast or someone who simply sees some money to be made.
It is also a measure of whether or not the creator even knows what they are doing in planning the costing and production and delivery of the product.
Caveat Emptor should never be considered an insult.
Creator Eric J. Sexton 23 minutes ago
Hey Phil,
If we did injection moulds they would cost about $4000 per mold. When we first started building this campaign the numbers for the molds and manufacturing was flipped. The cost of the plastic was much lower and the molds were much higher. Now we are using a company that has a special process that does spin casting with their own custom material. The molds are crazy cheep but the cost per mini is a lot more expensive. We are giving you guys a good price by not taking as much profit as other companies expect to make per mini.
Latest Update - so this would seem to be either Trollcast, or (and I really hope that this isn't a remote possibility) Defiance trying to pass themselves off as a manufacturing company again.
Thank you for asking this, and getting clarity.
With the price they are giving, and their describing it as spincast, I agree it has to be Trollcast.
That said, Trollforged is really rolling now on delivering product- RBG's first campaign was finally finished, but along with that, Impact's latest small Kickstarter is going to ship two months early. Their own campaign is just waiting on Ed to finish the sculpts, which he is posting steady progress updates on (a new one came out just this morning, in fact).
So, that is a reasonable explanation of their cost structure, as Trollforged is miles cheaper than any other similar option. I would be more worried about the creators than the caster, in this case, although there is still quite a queue that Trollforged is working through, even if they are getting MUCH more efficient at it (again, referencing the recent Impact campaign which is shipping 2 months early).
Ok After reading the guy's blog it appears that he is a table top gamer from the way back....... I guess the ruler was honest flubbery. Odd but honest.
The next question would then be, could Trollforge get the figures cast in their current state, and how many pieces would we be looking at each figure being made out of?
Ed is a wizard at casting things- I got a bunch of horses from the RBG kickstarter which were cast with all 4 legs as a single piece! Granted, that did cause some bubble formation on the bellies... but it was amazing that he could cast them in a single piece.
So, again, at this point I'd be mostly worried about the creator... I don't think those somewhat chunky designs are going to be much of an issue at all in Trollcast. The only real problematic models I received in it (and soon I'll have received models in it from 4 different campaigns) were RBG's most delicate sculpts, and I think that was a lesson learned for all involved... like many "resin" models, super thin features just aren't a good idea in the material, and are more suited to metal casting. And Tre can sculpt amazing detail on a pinhead, so there's that
Alain Viesca is a great 3d-sculptor in my opinion. He has done sculpts for the Modern Pinup Miniatures kickstarter:
See - that's really nice looking stuff (not my tastes, but obviously talented) - don't hide his light - shout about how great he is - bring in fans of his work.
He's based out of Oklahoma City, not far from me. He's got some great art on his website as well.
He has the Pinup Zombie Hunter on his website and has it cut apart for casting; he looks like he knows his stuff to my inexpert eye.
Obviously, they can't advertise the exact kickstarters that this guy has worked on, that would entail getting permission from those companies etc. I'm hoping that since they have him on board now, they'll be showing some of the same type of stuff later on.
I've never seen any kickstarter start off with their entire line represented by 3d sculpts etc.
I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until the evil "restic" came around. Bummer.
Just to be clear, spincast resin is not PVC, which is what is usually called "restic". It really is it's own animal. I'm going to make a descriptive article up on all the different plastics used in wargaming models soon so that we can just point to it, as it's coming up more and more now! Which I think is a good thing as gamers become more informed about the various options available
Spincast resin tends to hold better detail than PVC (similar to hand cast polyurethane resin made from a flexible silicone mold, although nothing really matches that). It also is not prone to the same terrible quality issues that PVC has, although it does have it's own separate issues with quality- particularly with bubbles. It seems to be a real art and Trollforged is the only company I know of which is successfully spincasting wargaming models at the moment.
Quoting from another thread where this was discussed, here are the 3 "normal" plastic options, which are described in the quote below. The other two most common options are metal and spincast resin. I'll add detail on spincast resin after the quoted text here:
Wehrkind wrote:Resin : The resin we think of when we think of high end boutique miniatures. Hand cast, hard to do in very large volume. Holds detail very well, and is easy to clean up. Also called Urethane Resin, or Epoxy Resin, which seem to be subsets. Urethane (poly or otherwise) are the normal sorts you see. Material properties can vary a good bit, with Ramshackle using a somewhat brittle resin that is stinky while other brands (and many home done models) use a less brittle and not so stinky resin.
PVC (poly vinyl chloride) Same sort of stuff they use in making pipes. Privateer Press, Mantic and others use this material as it is much cheaper to make the molds compared to HIPS, but can be mass produced better compared to resin. Downsides are that it tends not to hold sharp detail well, and filing/cleaning is a pain due to the toughness of the material. Goes by the other names of "restic" and "plastic". Huge range of variability in the final product due to huge range of variability in material properties.
HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) The kind of plastic used in modeling kits, GW and Wargames Factory models. Usually considered the gold standard for mass production, as details can be very fine and parts fitted together very cleanly, as well as being easy to clean up on the user's end. Plastic glue can be used instead of super glue to weld pieces together. Downsides on the producer's side is that the mold tooling is very expensive, and you cannot have undercuts.
Spincast resin is closest in results to "resin casting" (i.e. hand cast resin, using a flexible silicone mold and making casts by pouring in polyurethane). It suffers similar defects (prone to air bubbles, which are sometimes removed from hand cast resin by placing the silicone mold in a vacuum pressure pot while the casts cure). Both are also brittle and can have difficulty with really thin features.
They both have the same benefits too, though, of giving really great detail and making undecuts less of a drastic issue due to the molds being somewhat flexible.
Spincast resin is basically "mass producing" in a similar material. So, you won't have the same insane quality that some resin casters achieve, but you will have excellent quality if you can make sure the defects are kept to a minimum.
Thanks for the info RTides. I've a little experience with GW resin, I have a Barracuda, and didn't really enjoy working with it too much. Is this stuff any different?
The main issue with Trollcast, that is almost certainly the cause of those variable results I mentioned earlier, is it 'seems' to have a high level of shrinkage.
That can cause serious issues with thin parts and is the likeliest cause of past problems.
Whether or not it's still an issue I don't know, but I would guess it always will be as a side effact of the material itself. It can obviously be planned for but it's not an easy job as shrinkage is one of those things that isn't always uniform.
No idea whether it'll affect this particular Kickstarter, my guess is it won't be an issue as i still don't believe this will fund.
I think they simply made a misleading comment because trollcast contains polystyrene. As I mentioned earlier, no one at Trollforged calls it that- they specifically mention that it is not that.
Also, Trollforged hasn't confirmed they're being listed as the caster, it's just that they're the only US-based company successfully doing spincast resin, so you can arrive at them by simple process of elimination!
Artemis- when I make the article on various materials, I'll put up some pictures of the items I have from 4 different campaigns made in trollcast. From what I know, shrinkage is not necessarily more of an issue than it is in other materials. The main issue is quality of the production, as it's quite an art, and keeping out air bubbles.
My folks are in town this weekend but I'll try to have the article up by late next week
Agnosto- I've received a lot of hand cast resin from Wehrkind, who does casting in his basement and did production for On The Lamb Games for some time. I also have resin from Forgeworld and other small miniatures companies (although "finecast" from GW is my least favorite resin, by far). I would say working with the spincast resin material is quite a similar experience to working with normal resin models. If you don't enjoy working with resin models, you might not enjoy working with spincast resin either, since as I mentioned it has a lot of the same benefits and drawbacks, and is basically just a more mass produced version of "resin".
RiTides wrote: I think they simply made a misleading comment because trollcast contains polystyrene. As I mentioned earlier, no one at Trollforged calls it that- they specifically mention that it is not that.
Also, Trollforged hasn't confirmed they're being listed as the caster, it's just that they're the only US-based company successfully doing spincast resin, so you can arrive at them by simple process of elimination!
Artemis- when I make the article on various materials, I'll put up some pictures of the items I have from 4 different campaigns made in trollcast. From what I know, shrinkage is not necessarily more of an issue than it is in other materials. The main issue is quality of the production, as it's quite an art, and keeping out air bubbles.
I'm not privy to the internals of Ed's process but judging by what I've seen, shrinkage is, or at least was, an issue. As you can see the quality remains, but that is definitely a fair level of shrinkage beyond what I'd expect of metal casting.
It's also a very fitting explanation for what happened with other kickstarter's items where thinly sculpted parts came out see through or with holes in even, not air bubbles, just holes because the material was thin and brittle.
Note this isn't an insult, as we've both said, Impact have done well via Trollcast but they don't do too many thin parts and they have now had enough exposure to the material and the process that if they do want a thin part and shrinkage is still an issue they can work around it on purpose.
I'm sure this will become more relevant in the futrue as a better project will go the Trollcast route
Somehow a company that ONLY produces minis based games (Soda Pop in their new legal incarnation of Ninja Division) and a 30+ veteran RPG company (Palladium) thought that the breakdown of the render done by the Chinese factory engineer was "almost perfect" as shown below. Admittedly the model and parts are 3d printed and not plastic as it is a prototype but the fact that they opted for $10 white sturdy mediocre quality 3d printing is additionally telling. They've since changed the design somewhat in regards to the seams across the front along with the part count (the third pic) so I can confidently say that the design is of the same quality now as 1980's/1990's gashapon or at best 1/200 kits... which is hardly a ringing endorsement in 2014.
Spoiler:
Model parts for a SINGLE slightly larger than a 40k terminator model with one additional hand weapon option and missle pod variant. Subtract 5 parts for 1 complete model.
The revised version after initially downplaying overwhelming complaints for months about the "almost perfect" model as "a vocal tiny minority":
I think folks are, as Alph said, more critical (in terms of actually looking at details and asking "why?"... not the popular term now using it as a synonym for negative) of kickstarters due to both the rare high profile complete failures and the much more frequent letdown. It is a bit of a perfect storm when you get talented and well meaning creators working with practical shortest path is a straight line production engineers in the same bucket with no one who has a hand in both industries let alone a focus on what the customer wants. This guy may have been a wargamer back in the day from the posts above but the amount of begging and facepalming just to get a size shot is borderline ridiculous from reading this thread considering it should have been there on day one. Then add in the perplexing refusal to mention his production company (is it confirmed or denied to be Defiance?) along with comparison shots next to other minis (hell... just put in a damn huge disclaimer on every comparison photo)... is just double odd. Tre has made metal minis (I bought stuff from him when he only had a dozen or so!) and he still had alot of growing pains using an established minis producer for a different medium. I think that the amount of practical effort put into the initial kickstarter is a good indicator of the behind the scenes effort beyond just artistic endeavors put into making a physical product.
TC is a great product and Ed and crew have CERTAINLY had a lot of practice to develop their system. I do not doubt they can deliver. It did nto work for me but I am sure that by now they have all the bugs figured out and it will work better from here on.
Artemis- Good find, and I think you're right, although that is an early trial so as you say I think it might have improved on that front.
Tre- Great to hear you say that
Cincy- Regarding firmness, Ed actually shared that he has been experimenting with making the mix slightly more flexible (and thus less brittle). Wish I could share what he showed but let me just say that looked very promising as brittleness on thin parts was one of the main drawbacks I had observed of it.
I don't want to take this thread out of topic, but as the discussion is touching on the material it will be cast it, I figure I can at least post my opinion about TrollCast (my experience is from RBGs KS). The material itself can be of a high standard, in my opinion, if the cast comes out clean. So if they actually will get Trollforge to cast it, I wouldn't personally be worried about the quality. Of course, as Tre mentioned, it will have to be used with the right sculpts, though.
Artemis Black wrote: ... shows that this kickstarter has put aside $9680 for manufacturing. That is not a reasonable costing even for China, and as they have a big 'Made in the USA' stamp on their page it's considerably less reasonable. At that point I think it's totally fine to start questioning then on it. Again, not necessarily to name their partner as 'We aready have $100000 from outside investment, this is just the rest we need' is an acceptable answer imo.
What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? Are we talking about injection molding or spin cast. They aren't going to be injected molded from the responses and what I have seen, so that means they will be getting them spin cast.
They estimated $4520 for molds and $9680 for manufacturing but since these would be done by the same company, the correct total amount is actually $14,200 which is fairly accurate.
It is roughly $80-300 for a 9"-12" mold. These would most likely want to be done in a 12" mold. Given the many duplicated pieces a 12" would make more sense. They could put roughly 16-24 miniatures on one mold disc. The mold can usually survive for 400-450 spins for metal and 200-250 spins for resin before needing to create a new one.
It is about $8 a spin for a 12" mold. If there are 20 miniatures in a mold, then for a 400 spins ($3200) and create create 8000 miniatures. Looking at a snapshot of the Kickstarter with the current backing they need to create 6188 miniatures to fulfill that. Since that is only about 25% of their funding, they would need at least 24,752 miniatures to fulfill their $40,000 fund goal. With the budget outlined they can create over 24,000 miniatures. Granted I'm basing it off the sample given of current backers, that could easily change. Most of the pieces are human except for a small amount of Kelk, the rest don't unlock until stretch goals in which case their estimates scale up appropriately. They also gave themselves leeway for damages, which means part of the miniatures manufactured are coming from the $2480 along with the $4920 for shipping, that is essentially their buffer.
Now if they were doing the miniatures themselves they can drop costs more but it has a larger start-up as they have to purchase the equipment and training. Ultimately if they want to continue to do miniatures at affordable prices they will need to look at doing it themselves at some point. Depending on the labor costs you can cut manufacturing costs down greatly... that was what Reaper did in the beginning.
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?
How does the actual Trollforged stuff feel? I have some of Defiances horrid Trollforged Germans and the material is just weird feeling. I'm sure that their mixture was off, but the material has a strange, slimy feeling (even after being submerged in Simple Green and washed repeatedly) and super glue never wanted to adhere to it. I can also see what you mean about the air bubbles and holes appearing in thin parts. Those issues were very prevalent on the Defiance figures.
Dark Severance wrote: What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? .
That was based on their original claim that they were going to be producing in HIPS.
I notice that the Kickstarter page has been edited to remove the reference to polystyrene, but there doesn't appear to be anything in their updates actually telling people that the material has changed.
Dark Severance wrote: What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? .
That was based on their original claim that they were going to be producing in HIPS.
I notice that the Kickstarter page has been edited to remove the reference to polystyrene, but there doesn't appear to be anything in their updates actually telling people that the material has changed.
That makes sense. They only stated in "Yeah, that was pulled down yesterday when I found it...Calling it polystyrene was my mistake. The manufacture described it like polystyrene and just kept calling it by that name. Sorry for the confusion there.".
That is the only reason I am guessing it is Trollcast is because of the statement, Ed usually describes Trollcast as "a custom mix containing high impact polystyrene, and brings all the benefits of plastic production and quality (cheap, strong, fast production) without the initial high cost of tooling up traditional plastic injection machines (which can run into thousands of dollars!).". However we are all waiting on the response to the question at this point though.
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Artemis Black wrote: To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?
It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.
Dark Severance wrote: What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? .
That was based on their original claim that they were going to be producing in HIPS.
I notice that the Kickstarter page has been edited to remove the reference to polystyrene, but there doesn't appear to be anything in their updates actually telling people that the material has changed.
That makes sense. They only stated in "Yeah, that was pulled down yesterday when I found it...Calling it polystyrene was my mistake. The manufacture described it like polystyrene and just kept calling it by that name. Sorry for the confusion there.".
That is the only reason I am guessing it is Trollcast is because of the statement, Ed usually describes Trollcast as "a custom mix containing high impact polystyrene, and brings all the benefits of plastic production and quality (cheap, strong, fast production) without the initial high cost of tooling up traditional plastic injection machines (which can run into thousands of dollars!).". However we are all waiting on the response to the question at this point though.
Sorry, missed your question as we were posting at the same time, but yeah the answer above was correct
If it is trollcast then if I was Ed I'd ask them to amend the pie graph simply because it gives the impression that 20% of what they have made will be broken by the amount they have set aside for damages! If I'm pushing a new material that's the last impression I'd want to be made.
Plus I'm of the opinion they have made up that pie graph so altering it wouldn't mean anything anyway)
Artemis Black wrote:
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?
It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.
Yeah that's what I got too, that is smaller than they said. Maybe they ballsed up the 3d printing? They're going to be a bit small for guys in powered armour imo, especially if they are using Trolcast and shrinkageis still an issue.
Artemis Black wrote: If it is trollcast then if I was Ed I'd ask them to amend the pie graph simply because it gives the impression that 20% of what they have made will be broken by the amount they have set aside for damages! If I'm pushing a new material that's the last impression I'd want to be made.
Plus I'm of the opinion they have made up that pie graph so altering it wouldn't mean anything anyway)
I don't think they completely made it up. But I do believe they put too much into it that didn't' need to be in it. Molds, Damages, Manufacturing should of been combined. Shipping is usually part of fulfillment, at least it should be. I'm not sure what they are considering marketing either and not sure why they would include taxes in the total as well. It honestly looks like they used one of those Kickstarter generators that can help you figure out your costs and what ultimately your fund goal should be.
Artemis Black wrote: Yeah that's what I got too, that is smaller than they said. Maybe they ballsed up the 3d printing? They're going to be a bit small for guys in powered armour imo, especially if they are using Trolcast and shrinkageis still an issue.
That is unfortunately one of the main issues with using 3D printing for prototyping. It does work to make sure you have the details and size you want. However you also have to adjust the 3D models to print at a slightly larger size to adjust for shrinkage when you go to production. Hopefully when they create their masters they take that into account.
I did reach out to Ed about this and I think it's okay for me to post just to stop the rumor mill from running.
Yes, WarPrime reached out to Ed, and Ed said they could talk about it but that he was too busy right now to do so, which he definitely, definitely is . Those guys at Trollforged are machines and are cranking out a ton of miniatures right now!
So, basically, in my opinion this whole discussion is pretty much premature. Lots of people reach out to various companies about getting their stuff made. With this long of a lead time, most companies will consider it. But there's not a contract in place, and Trollforged is not "connected" to this project... WarPrime just reached out to them for an initial contact.
So... honestly, there's no real point in considering the ins and outs of Trollforged's material / process in this case. As I said, they're casting up a ton of stuff right now for existing projects, and this is really far out. Just because someone reaches out to them, doesn't mean they'll end up working together... it just means they reached out to them. Honestly, a similar thing happened with Imbrian Arts... a company can list whoever they like as their supplier on Kickstarter, but that doesn't really mean anything since as we know backers are not shareholders and have no say if the supplier is changed. Trollforged isn't committed here... it's just a possibility.
In the end, I think it's all moot because I don't think this will fund. There are so many red flags on this campaign that it's a bit ridiculous!
RiTides wrote: In the end, I think it's all moot because I don't think this will fund. There are so many red flags on this campaign that it's a bit ridiculous!
I don't know man, i mean they did get 25% funded within the first two days...
RiTides wrote: In the end, I think it's all moot because I don't think this will fund. There are so many red flags on this campaign that it's a bit ridiculous!
I don't know man, i mean they did get 25% funded within the first two days...
I see... the problem is that you're using common sense. Practical experience shows that minis games and lines that don't immediately fund end up stalling and frequently backsliding in the midpoint lull and then get cancelled. This even happens to campaigns that do immediately fund that don't answer important questions about scale, cost, and materials but instead brush them off.
Artemis Black wrote: To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?
It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.
Minor correction: I have the Secret Weapon Miniatures bases they're using, and they're 7-8mm tall.
Artemis Black wrote: To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?
It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.
Minor correction: I have the Secret Weapon Miniatures bases they're using, and they're 7-8mm tall.
That's what I thought. Dark Severance's guesses looked off to me. Mini looks to be around 1.5" in pic with 1/4" base, which would match up to the 32mm top of head from the other graphic posted. A bit tough to tell exactly due to camera angle and mini vs tape position.
If Ed said no contract with TF, any chance they are dealing with defiance? I haven't seen the creator say not defiance, which was asked a few times.
Artemis Black wrote: To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?
It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.
Minor correction: I have the Secret Weapon Miniatures bases they're using, and they're 7-8mm tall.
It is hard to say if the base is 5/16" or 6/16" given the picture. I did do my conversion wrong though. It would make the base 7.9mm - 9mm probably depending on the base. Some of the bases do look like they would be 7mm while some of the rubble, depending on placement would be higher.
The complete figure, including the base, is definitely 1.5" (not 1.7", was reading the tape measure wrong), which makes it 38mm tall. My math was wrong, but since it was all based on the same measurement when I translated it from inches to mm it still is correct. If we say the base was 7-8mm tall, it would still make the figure 30mm to the top of the head, the figure is still 28 mm to the eyes (without the base).
Latest Update: "We have never spoken with nor are we working with Defiance. Our Manufacture is working with multiple Kickstarters and asks that we do not mention them by name. We have agreed and will not break that promise."
Here is a general question to everyone, something that I have never understood. In the board gaming industry, manufacturers are known. If I wanted to know who ZMan Games was using to manufacturer X product, they would let me know. I've never had an issue finding out who does what and whom to contact. They do that because if the manufacturer they work with gets more business, ultimately long-term wise their own manufacturing costs go down because of it. It also makes sure that is someone did a bad job, someone else doesn't end up using them.
With miniatures manufacturers everyone protects their source like they are the city of gold. With the exception of a couple smaller manufacturers and companies, most companies won't give you specifics on who they outsource or who does their manufacturing. I never understood why. Are they afraid someone will take their spot in the queue or that somehow their prices will start to go up or is it that they few if they got a good deal, someone else will get a good deal? It is such a different market than board games, even if you compare it to video games, miniatures games is in their own little market with their own set of sub-rules.
I dunno, I've never had trouble getting the names of factories before, and I'll gladly share the names of the companies we outsource various things to.
Cyporiean wrote: I dunno, I've never had trouble getting the names of factories before, and I'll gladly share the names of the companies we outsource various things to.
Mantic will only say they outsource to China and responded with "I'm afraid we cannot divulge the name of the company.". There are similar responses from Megacon Games (MERC) and depending on the CoolMini project they will give a similar response as well.
Cyporiean wrote: I dunno, I've never had trouble getting the names of factories before, and I'll gladly share the names of the companies we outsource various things to.
Mantic will only say they outsource to China and responded with "I'm afraid we cannot divulge the name of the company.". There are similar responses from Megacon Games (MERC) and depending on the CoolMini project they will give a similar response as well.
I got the name of Mantic's Chinese company awhile back, but don't remember it off the top of my head.. If I wasn't just on my phone this week I'd look through my emails.
Very clearly I have been away too long. The rumor mill got you guys whipped into a frenzy.
A few things I will try to address:
The ruler: Yes...I know people want to see my miniatures standing right next to a GW mini. Based on all the opinion I got here in this thread (and on BoLS) the frequent comments about getting sued made me a bit more cautious. I didn't think slapping a picture of a GW product on my KS page was a very good idea. I have seen some other KS do it, but they didn't have Sci-fi games with men in powered armor so their risk was a lot less.
Video Games: Yeah...we want to make a video game set in this universe. We built a prototype of War Prime with low-poly (2000polys) models for Tablets. The estimate to get the full game made and brought to development would have cost in excess of $500,000US. I was no comfortable coming onto Kickstarter and asking for half a million dollars. So I thought I would start small. Build a real miniatures game. Build a foundation. A fan base. I guess I am still a romantic at heart and believe that if you are passionate, and honest about something. People will get behind you and help you build it. I am not trying to match GW quality. They have 30 years on me. So the only way I can compete is do something they can't. Make some cool miniatures for a great price.
I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.
The Plastic: I am sure it will get posted up here soon but I thought I would post the latest Update on the KS page so you hear it from me:
=========================================================
My dear backers,
First let me say how thankful I am for all the support and kind words I have received so far. And to be so far along in such a short time is huge! Kicktraq currently has us trending to succeed at $133k. That is amazing and I thank you.
Unfortunately we are stalled because of some issues that have come up. I have made a promise of transparency and informing you of any and all issues that come up. Well it pains me to say that I made a mistake when I built this Kickstarter Campaign.
My original plans to use a manufacturing company in China would have cost a lot more upfront in molds ($4000 a pop) and shipping, but very little for the plastic. But the company was not forthcoming with the type of plastic they used. And when at last it was revealed they used PVC, it was two weeks from our launch date. This left scrambling to find another manufacturer.
I spoke with a few and found one that convinced me they could handle our estimated volume and timeline. In our discussions this manufacturer said they have a custom made polystyrene “like” material that is spun-cast. I was elated. A company in the USA that makes polystyrene miniatures….awesome. (NOTE: A few days into our dealings I had missed where said its “like” polystyrene, and I am still calling polystyrene).
The cost per miniature was a lot higher but the molds were a lot less. This allowed me to bring my original target of $60K for the first human army down to $40k (in hindsight I should have made this $39k to avoid the obvious jokes that have been made).
Well day one of the Kickstarter and people are asking what the plastic is….I have listed on the Kickstarter page very clearly. Polystyrene. In bold! Someone on Facebook asks the same question. I respond with "Its Polystyrene"...proud that I am giving the people what they want. His response was “BS” instantly making me question if my information is accurate. I contacted the manufacturer who confirmed my dread: “It's a resin-material not styrene. I think there was a misunderstanding there. It's rigid but semi flexible. Feels like injection plastic. people always think it is because of that”.
FUUUuuuuu…..
I removed the reference as fast as I could (sometime during day two). I have been trying to relay the correct information ever since. This was not a deliberate attempt to mislead but a simple misunderstanding on my part.
I still believe the quality material the manufacture will deliver will be very good. I am also confident that we can handle any and all problems that come up, as long as we continue to have the support of our backers.
I am sure that this will affect some of your decisions to back our project and I fully understand. You have my deep and sincere apologies. I hope you will continue to follow us on Facebook, Kickstarter, and our newsletter, to keep an eye on our progress. And when we have won back your trust, I hope you will return.
I am just a game maker trying to do what I think would be cool. I love miniatures. I love tabletop wargaming. I love sci-fi. I have spent all of my savings and racked up my credit cards to get to this point. Should I have waited a bit longer to get things more solidified? Yeah. But I am out of time and money. If I didn't launch the KS then I wouldn't get to keep working on it, and it would go into the pile of other games I hope to one day have the time and money to build.
If you don't like the designs. Don't back it. You think we can't deliver. Don't back it. You think Im an ass-hole who is only trying to "cash in on the miniatures market". Don't back it. It's as simple as that. But I have been nothing but open and honest. My email is easy to find. eric@kingmakergames.com I am always willing to talk and share my thoughts and ideas. It seems I have had a few conversations with people on here who thought what I said was a "Joke" and "face palm" worthy. But rather than talking to me about it they ran off here to the rumor mill to stir the gak. I thank you for the same trust and honesty I shared with you.
For those of you have have backed and supported me and my grand idea of creating some affordable miniatures. With every fiber of my being, I thank you. With your help we can prove everyone else wrong. The little guy can stand up to the big guy. We can shrug off the insults and verbal oppression. We can build a new universe that at least has some ray of hope no matter how small. And we can show that greed does not have to the be basis of all business.
It's Tony Reidy isn't it? And on page 2, the creator has already stated he's not. Otoh, that is just his word and people do like to speculate.
As for this project. Seriously, you guys should have considered just producing 1 set of miniatures first before launching the KS. This is way too ambitious a KS and 40k is a lot to give to an unproven manufacturer. Instead of producing marines + heavy support team + walker, maybe you should have just produced a line of vanilla marines first
I recommend not handing over any money to the manufacturer until you've talked to previous established customers of theirs really. Don't become like Torn Armor
I urge you to learn about plastic molding and figure out the pros and cons of various materials and molding processes before you end up either being taken for a ride or taking your backers for a ride. It's clear you have some very talented artists and a lot of vision and hopes for this project, but it's equally clear that you simply do not know how to design for manufacture - the fact that the material is still up in the air makes it a moot point because without knowing the final material you simply CAN'T design for manufacture.
If you're going with Trollforged, you need to lock down a manufacturing contract quickly, and figure out what the material can and cannot do. Then you can have your sculptors design accordingly. If you are NOT going with Trollforged, you're going to get out of your depth quickly. Dealing with random/shady companies in China without feet on the ground will end in disaster; you need a procurement professional who preferably has experience in both plastic injection molding and quality assurance to make sure that you are
a) not getting ripped off on molding and part-prices,
b) working with a manufacturer who can give adequate feedback on whether or not your product will actually cast (and helping you fix the issues when it doesn't rather than disappearing with your money)
c) not getting substandard product when the tooling is finished
d) not going to end up with a sudden price increase when the factory learns of your success on Kickstarter
You should not have launched the Kickstarter till you had all of these details locked down. It was premature and you run a serious risk of either non-fulfillment or enormous disappointment due to rushing into a relationship with a manufacturer whose vision is not aligned with yours.
Source: I'm an engineer by background and I manage a team of supplier quality engineers and global commodity managers.
I canceled my pledge the other day just due to the issue of a bit vague regarding the manufacturer, more as in it doesn't seem locked down.
I am not too fussed what miniatures are made out of as I am a pretty experienced hobbyist and can fix most issues on any model.
I just feel this seems to have an element of the Rick proestly GoT kickstarter that it had nothing on hand to show off and after a couple of weeks it became clear their ideas far outstretched what KS backers usually expect up front, i.e. physical models and examples of definitive plans\timetables.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Tony Reidy did have a team of people working for him, and I doubt his company uses the name "Defiance Games" these days.
It's just very suspicious.
Obviously, you've mentioned Reidy like 5 times in this thread.
@ Eric,
Don't get down. The internet is 90% trolls it seems like. While there are some valid concerns about your project, I for one would love Cheap: The Marines to come to life. However..
THIS..
I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.
..sounds both defeatist and whiny, and does not incur much confidence among potential backers.
I have supported your project, and hope to see something great come from your lizard-orcs and humans!
Just saw this. I like the miniature designs and I really like the idea of there being more affordable options in order to create a little competition in this market, so I've made a pledge. It's actually more for the principle of the thing than for the minis, so I won't be too put out if it doesn't work out.
Very clearly I have been away too long. The rumor mill got you guys whipped into a frenzy.
A few things I will try to address:
The ruler: Yes...I know people want to see my miniatures standing right next to a GW mini. Based on all the opinion I got here in this thread (and on BoLS) the frequent comments about getting sued made me a bit more cautious. I didn't think slapping a picture of a GW product on my KS page was a very good idea. I have seen some other KS do it, but they didn't have Sci-fi games with men in powered armor so their risk was a lot less.
If GW would sue you, it wouldn't be because you posted a comparison on your Kickstarter. They can compare for themselves...
WarPrime wrote: But rather than talking to me about it they ran off here to the rumor mill to stir the gak.
I think that people are posting on here because its a public space where you guys have already been talking to the community, and they don't need to back the project to be able to comment. If the kickstarter page had an open forum i am sure people would comment on there.
WarPrime wrote: If you don't like the designs. Don't back it. You think we can't deliver. Don't back it. You think Im an ass-hole who is only trying to "cash in on the miniatures market". Don't back it.
It also seems that you are misunderstanding what the community is saying to you here, and are just labeling people on here as "haters" to dismiss. If you want a successful kickstarter you have to earn the trust of your backers through hard facts and be open to criticism. The reason why you see so much skepticism is because you have not provided the information that people require to trust you. This is not people being "haters", this is people trying to understand if it is worth investing in the future of this project.
Once you have proved beyond reasonable doubt that you actually have a great project on your hands that will deliver quality miniatures on time, then you will get nothing but praise.
WarPrime wrote: I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.
It is this kind of attitude that is raising eyebrows over here.
Oh, and the fact that there are a ton of spelling mistakes all over the kickstarter (including misspelling your own e-mail address) also doesn't incite much confidence...
Very clearly I have been away too long. The rumor mill got you guys whipped into a frenzy.
A few things I will try to address:
The ruler: Yes...I know people want to see my miniatures standing right next to a GW mini. Based on all the opinion I got here in this thread (and on BoLS) the frequent comments about getting sued made me a bit more cautious. I didn't think slapping a picture of a GW product on my KS page was a very good idea. Then you should have bothered going to a lawyer and ask his legal advise. Especially when you're asking for 40K.... I have seen some other KS do it, but they didn't have Sci-fi games with men in powered armor so their risk was a lot less.
Video Games: Yeah...we want to make a video game set in this universe. We built a prototype of War Prime with low-poly (2000polys) models for Tablets. The estimate to get the full game made and brought to development would have cost in excess of $500,000US. I was no comfortable coming onto Kickstarter and asking for half a million dollars. So I thought I would start small. Build a real miniatures game. Build a foundation. A fan base. I guess I am still a romantic at heart and believe that if you are passionate, and honest about something. People will get behind you and help you build it. I am not trying to match GW quality. They have 30 years on me. Actually even if you did have their 30 years, you'd need some million $$$ to even attempt that. But you're openly admitting you are simply trying to copy their miniatures So the only way I can compete is do something they can't. Make some cool miniatures for a great price. Or do something new and exciting perhaps?
I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic. A completely unknown producer can charge just about anything. Hate to break it to you but if you dared charge something like that, people would simply not buy. And you calling a known competitor greedy still shows you have not learned from your very first mistake of throwing mud in their faces for the 150$ books. Imo, not a good way to go...
The Plastic: I am sure it will get posted up here soon but I thought I would post the latest Update on the KS page so you hear it from me:
=========================================================
My dear backers,
First let me say how thankful I am for all the support and kind words I have received so far. And to be so far along in such a short time is huge! Kicktraq currently has us trending to succeed at $133k. That is amazing and I thank you.
Unfortunately we are stalled because of some issues that have come up. I have made a promise of transparency and informing you of any and all issues that come up. Well it pains me to say that I made a mistake when I built this Kickstarter Campaign.
My original plans to use a manufacturing company in China would have cost a lot more upfront in molds ($4000 a pop) and shipping, but very little for the plastic. But the company was not forthcoming with the type of plastic they used. And when at last it was revealed they used PVC, it was two weeks from our launch date. This left scrambling to find another manufacturer. Actually this left NOT launching the KS before having figured everything out.
I spoke with a few and found one that convinced me they could handle our estimated volume and timeline. In our discussions this manufacturer said they have a custom made polystyrene “like” material that is spun-cast. I was elated. A company in the USA that makes polystyrene miniatures….awesome. (NOTE: A few days into our dealings I had missed where said its “like” polystyrene, and I am still calling polystyrene). OK, I personally am going to accept that, I think it's clear now and we all want to believe it was not done intentionally.
The cost per miniature was a lot higher but the molds were a lot less. This allowed me to bring my original target of $60K for the first human army down to $40k (in hindsight I should have made this $39k to avoid the obvious jokes that have been made).
Well day one of the Kickstarter and people are asking what the plastic is….I have listed on the Kickstarter page very clearly. Polystyrene. In bold! Someone on Facebook asks the same question. I respond with "Its Polystyrene"...proud that I am giving the people what they want. His response was “BS” instantly making me question if my information is accurate. I contacted the manufacturer who confirmed my dread: “It's a resin-material not styrene. I think there was a misunderstanding there. It's rigid but semi flexible. Feels like injection plastic. people always think it is because of that”.
FUUUuuuuu…..
I removed the reference as fast as I could (sometime during day two). I have been trying to relay the correct information ever since. This was not a deliberate attempt to mislead but a simple misunderstanding on my part.
I still believe the quality material the manufacture will deliver will be very good. I am also confident that we can handle any and all problems that come up, as long as we continue to have the support of our backers. Problem is Eric, that you "believe". Thing is you do not "know". And it's other people's money that are going to get lost if your guessing fails.
I am sure that this will affect some of your decisions to back our project and I fully understand. You have my deep and sincere apologies. I hope you will continue to follow us on Facebook, Kickstarter, and our newsletter, to keep an eye on our progress. And when we have won back your trust, I hope you will return.
I am just a game maker trying to do what I think would be cool. I love miniatures. I love tabletop wargaming. I love sci-fi. I have spent all of my savings and racked up my credit cards to get to this point. Should I have waited a bit longer to get things more solidified? Yeah. But I am out of time and money. If I didn't launch the KS then I wouldn't get to keep working on it, and it would go into the pile of other games I hope to one day have the time and money to build. OK, that's fair enough on your wanting to do what you love, but you are saying now we should pity your effort because you have nothing left. So if this KS has not done the math correctly and no more funds are available, how in the world is this ever going to be delivered?
If you don't like the designs. Don't back it. You think we can't deliver. Don't back it. You think Im an ass-hole who is only trying to "cash in on the miniatures market". Don't back it. It's as simple as that. But I have been nothing but open and honest. My email is easy to find. eric@kingmakergames.com I am always willing to talk and share my thoughts and ideas. It seems I have had a few conversations with people on here who thought what I said was a "Joke" and "face palm" worthy. But rather than talking to me about it they ran off here to the rumor mill to stir the gak. I find it unfair to blame and attack the community and hobbyists because you were absent in this forum. You started this here IIRC so why blame people as "cowards" because they are only replying to your topic? I thank you for the same trust and honesty I shared with you.
For those of you have have backed and supported me and my grand idea of creating some affordable miniatures. With every fiber of my being, I thank you. With your help we can prove everyone else wrong. The little guy can stand up to the big guy. Again you are comparing yourself to Games Workshop? What's the deal here? And if anyone has "stood up" to GWimo that would be Chapterhouse, so why not back them instead? We can shrug off the insults and verbal oppression. I don't think people here mean to insult anyone, they are only saying outloud their thoughts. And they are also explaining why. We can build a new universe that at least has some ray of hope no matter how small. And we can show that greed does not have to the be basis of all business.
I urge you to learn about plastic molding and figure out the pros and cons of various materials and molding processes before you end up either being taken for a ride or taking your backers for a ride. It's clear you have some very talented artists and a lot of vision and hopes for this project, but it's equally clear that you simply do not know how to design for manufacture - the fact that the material is still up in the air makes it a moot point because without knowing the final material you simply CAN'T design for manufacture.
If you're going with Trollforged, you need to lock down a manufacturing contract quickly, and figure out what the material can and cannot do. Then you can have your sculptors design accordingly. If you are NOT going with Trollforged, you're going to get out of your depth quickly. Dealing with random/shady companies in China without feet on the ground will end in disaster; you need a procurement professional who preferably has experience in both plastic injection molding and quality assurance to make sure that you are
a) not getting ripped off on molding and part-prices,
b) working with a manufacturer who can give adequate feedback on whether or not your product will actually cast (and helping you fix the issues when it doesn't rather than disappearing with your money)
c) not getting substandard product when the tooling is finished
d) not going to end up with a sudden price increase when the factory learns of your success on Kickstarter
You should not have launched the Kickstarter till you had all of these details locked down. It was premature and you run a serious risk of either non-fulfillment or enormous disappointment due to rushing into a relationship with a manufacturer whose vision is not aligned with yours.
Source: I'm an engineer by background and I manage a team of supplier quality engineers and global commodity managers.