It started out innocently enough. Everyone was doing it, so why shouldn't I? I didn't even have to put my name out there, just quietly added onto someone else's Kickstarter pledge for a small supply of someting called PVC, also known as "restic"...
Soon, I was obsessively watching other crowdfunding campaigns promising great things in the material. Sight unseen, I am ashamed to admit, I put in my own pledge for a larger dose. And I knew then, that I needed help.
But I couldn't admit to it to others just yet. I started out on my own, by ridding myself of all but the most innocent items in the substance. But no matter what I tried, I kept finding myself drawn to the screen, staring hungrily at the substance of my desire, finger hovering over the "pledge" button. One small click is all it would take.
I knew then that I could not break the addiciton on my own strength. I needed to admit publicly that I had a problem, and face it with the help of others fighting the same addiction. So, here I am. Inspired by my mentor, Piston Honda, who came forward first:
Piston Honda wrote: We need to create a group where we can discuss our horrors of such material.
We can call ourselves Restic Knights, in honor of the new horror that is to come.
I ask you, brothers and sisters, to hold me accountable. I will post in this thread whenever I am tempted to spend money, sight unseen, on restic again. It goes by many names: PVC, sprueless plastic... but that is why I need help. Maybe, I'll be innocently browsing a Kickstarter, and not realizing I'm one small click away from starting down that same long, dark, mold-line-ridden road again.
Stand with me. Remind me of the soft detail, the difficulty of cleaning, the mis-shapen parts. Don't let me give in to temptation. In return, I promise to stand with you, and hold you accountable, if you will only come forward and admit that you have a problem, that you belong with us.
I too have have fallen prey to the halfbreed menace, not resin nor proper plastic. Cleaning mold lines from models I don't even like, painting details onto models that should have already had them, spending my time and sweat in addition to my money to get a decent looking model.
Recently, I hit rock bottom. Only it didn't start recently, it was so long ago that it feels like it happened to a different person. But that's how it gets you. You pledge for Relic Knights thinking "Hey, Deke has done some really good stuff in the past, so this will turn out great!" I excitedly put down 200$ on concept art and renders, and dreamed of the sweet models to come. Time passed, and I forgot the details of the program, holding onto a vague sweet dream of things to come, like a child dreams of Christmas, half past and half future.
Somewhere along the line I recall hearing that the material would be some sort of plastic, a high quality PVC. That should have been my wakeup call, a siren telling me something was wrong, but hey, PP makes models out of that stuff, and I don't hate every Skinwalker or Warpwolf I own. But I wasn't thinking. How much detail does the Feral really have? How many times have I fixed a broken Skinwalker halberd? How well will that scale down to a delicate 28mm model? How much more practice does PP even have compared to a start up company used to metals?
Then I allowed myself to forget again. Completed my masters, had a kid, wrote papers; life went on. Never questioned the timing of my investment, because, hey, its Kickstarter right? Delays always happen, and you get stuff when you get it. Periodically I would refresh the thread for some new renders and get a little excited, but time passed on my interest free loan.
Until the day. Big unveiling of actual production things! Up close and detailed! Christmas morning has arrived! Tearing into presents gift wrapped in shiny spoiler tags my eyes bulged with excitement, then narrowed in anger. What was this I was looking at? Soft, bland models, lacking intricate details or any real relief. Were these really based on the lovely renders I had seen months before, or had I merely lionized the quality of the digital sculpts over the months?
Clicking back through the thread I found the proper renders and found that no, it was not my imagination: the productions models were to the renders as a FF7 character is to a Pixar character.
That is when it hit me: I had spent a significant amount of money backing a project which had produced something I wouldn't even buy for conversions. Not only that, but now that it had been seen, would anyone want to buy the models from me, models that require a great deal of painting skill to look good? I began to realize that I might well be lucky to get back half of my investment if I sold them all new in box the moment they arrived.
Then the deeper realization sunk in: This was not the only thing I had wanted to buy in the last two years with discretionary hobby funds. Thinking of the painting skill required to add back small details entirely lacking from the models, it dawned on my that I could have bought a proper airbrush for myself two bloody years ago had I simply avoided this project. I had effectively spent 200$ to spend two years not having what I want, and being lucky to have 100$ at the end of it.
But this is good. The total wreck of a project has taught me a lesson a more gentle disappointment may not have, and that lesson is "Trust nothing not resin, not metal nor HPS." For now when I see a project promising great models with lovely concept art and beautiful renders I need only look within to the anger and disappointment boiling within my belly, and know that without a firm attachment to proper materials, all those promises will turn to ash in my mouth. I hold onto this ball of anger, for though it burns me and all it touches, the scars are a reminder not fall for the sweet words that led me to the pyre in the first place.
And with this flame I shall purge the false material from the Earth, and woe betide any that should through ignorance or malice bring its vile, globulous form back amongst mankind, for they shall be cleansed in the flames of righteous fury.
I didnt know it until today when I found this forlorn thread but I am a restic addict as well and I need help.
I got talked into relic knights with a friend! we went halfzies on a 2 faction deal, and as the kickstarter went on, I succumbed to many a add on...sigh...
now I fear I may have to look into melting these down and casting them for new pvc pipes for a new bathroom I am going to add on to my house this summer....
I fear to ask but how many other of my kick starter addictions are PVC and I did not know?1?!?!
Help me, my Restic Knight brothers, for I have sinned!
For I am a believer and follower of the East Texas model pushers that are Reaper Miniatures, and I cannot help myself. For my shame and calamity is complete! I hath pledged mightily in their first KS offering Bones I: The Boning, and dipped deeply into my wallet where I found the VISA and my dignity. Woe onto me as I added add-on after add-on. The tempestuous Reaper Sophie, smiling and mocking my lack of will as I entered the digits to my pledge. I wailed in anguish as delay after delay plagued their delivery, like the frogs in Egypt and the freckles on a ginger. I watched with baited breath as the Reaper shipment counter whirled faster than the Olson Twins legality website ever did. As I received my wondrous bounty, further woe and consternation benighted me, for I was forced to move from the warm bosom of Southern Texas to the cold heart of Northern Illinois. My hobby supplies, nay my very existence was packed away in so many boxes in a storage facility to be forgotten, like a virginity pledge on prom night. And I moved away from my D&D group, where the minis were to be used and loved and adored...
As I finally unpacked my forgotten treasures and feasted my eyes upon the horde of unpainted geek-dom, the evil Reaper Sophie succubus returned with promises of new PVC offerings, too tempting to dismiss! Bones II: Bone Harder latched its clutches into my soul and paypal account like that weird kid from summer camp. I succumbed to its calling and surrendered my money.
And now I wait for new treasures to behold, having not painted my first box of goodness and plastic, yet.
Help me brothers. Prevent me from buying Bones III: Bone Deeper, until I at least paint the first batch of plastic or, at the very least, find a new gaming group to share my bounty.
Hi, Sinful Hero, Wehrkind, Theorius, kronk. Thanks for sharing.
To Alpharius- As you say, we are a circle here, with no head and no foot. We are made strong by this fact, stronger than if there were only one to lead us.
To whalemusic- Only by admitting that we have a problem, can we begin on the road to recovery. You push the restic menace onto your commission painter with no thought of his own well-being? Of the cuts in his fingers? Of the loss of his hair as he tears it out in frustration?
There is no judgement here, only recovering addicts starting out on the road to recovery. But I ask that you help and not hinder others on their journey out of addiction.
That addiction has taken many -- different -- forms, but it has one thing in common- the continual need to acquire more of the very thing that ails us.
Everyone has a different story to share. I only ask that they acknowledge our values here, and admit that they have a problem, in order to be welcomed into our brother and sisterhood.
Other people? Commission painters are people? I thought they were highly trained painting automatons who turned paypal funds into colors on inferior plastic like minis. OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!!!!
With a nod of acknowledgement to those seated at this malformed almost-round table, I stand.
My loss is not the greatest and perhaps I've not yet fully accepted it as I stumble through the stages of denial, holding out hope that, in hand, I may not consider it a loss at all. After all, if true, I will have gotten what I wanted would I not? Cool models made from cool concept artwork or matching those models shown during beguiling campaigns full of promise. Only now and only if I am honest with myself do I recognize the true content contained in the long, glamorous solicitations of my coin: pretty pictures and pretty words, nothing more.
The fault is mine for taking leave of reason that I should fall as many of you have for such fleeting beauty. Like RiTides, my lust for miniatures even at the word "restic" falters but does not abate and eyes wander to shiny, pleasing forms. Like Wehrkind, my patience -- and patient we have been, all of us, to forgo ourselves then until now -- is rewarded not with joy, not with the elation that required a deposit and that was subsidized with Pledge Managers, but instead is repaid with trepidation that would turn remorseful had I no deceit left in me.
Long have I championed plastic. No longer can I do so with clear conscience as I may unknowingly set an innocent upon this restic path. To those that would do so I caution this: full objective disclosure is the only way to absolution.
I am Dentry the Half-Hearted (or maybe it's a whole heart that didn't come out in production), and I am... unwell.
whalemusic360 wrote: Other people? Commission painters are people? I thought they were highly trained painting automatons who turned paypal funds into colors on inferior plastic like minis. OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!!!!
I am not yet one of you my brothers, I can barely stand in front of such an auspicious circle. Yet, I can see the threat rising. My pledge for the dark arts of CMoN and Soda Pop draws close, and I fear for my soul, my sanity, my thumbs after trimming the mould lines of Paazuzu. Please, accept me in advance, I shall not falter. All my days I shall atone for my transgression.
Hi Dentry, Zond. Thanks for sharing. Don't worry, we're all in different stages on our road to recovery, and by sharing we help one another along the way.
Whalemusic, I see you have seen the error of your ways, but fear not! We have all experienced that same sickening moment, and it's why we're here together, helping one another recover and right the wrongs we've done to ourselves and others in the name of restic.
Alpharius, your zeal is admirable, brother. But we have yet to hear your story. What has brought you to our circle of recovery?
Sinful Hero, you're right, and that's why we're here. For our errors in judgement do not affect us alone. There are others who fall victim, and worst of all, some of them are helpless to do anything about it:
You can't even see the pain on their faces. Why, you ask? Because of that which has formerly enslaved us, that which has brought us here: PVC plastic aka "restic"... our former drug of choice.
I vote for RiTides-as-Alpharius, because in the end aren't we all Alpharius? Doesn't that makes this all our plan?
That said I'm not fit to join such a group, as my experiences do not reach the same depths. My standards may be lower, my luck better or my denial deeper, but the monster has not yet snapped shut around me. I need to confront my game-buying addiction! as mountains of polystyrene and metal surround me in a house rapidly becoming a candidate for Hoarders, but that seems more generalized that you brave "Styrene Shevaliers."
So to paraphrase the words of the immortal H. Simpson: "And if there's time we'll get to my game addiction...but they won't be any time"
Let not our alliance against this menace disintegrate before it even begins, brothers! Who it is that leads us matters not- it is that which we stand against.
There is only one trickster here, and his name is PVC:
I have atoned for my sins by returning to that which first nurtured me in my wargaming infancy- that resin of purest form, that which is cast by hand. Let me not falter now that I have begun on this new path!
The path of HIPS is another which may lead to freedom from this menace. Or a return to the ancient past, that which was forged in metal, when plastic was but a vision of a strange, unknown future. We know better now, brothers, let us not be tricked again!
You don't have to have already suffered the unholy touch of restic personally - you merely have to wish that no one else need suffer restic's horrors again!
Too true, brother Alpharius- all are welcome here. Addicts need those around them to be supportive in their recovery, not enablers of that which caused their downfall.
But for those of us who have fallen victim to this substance, I ask that you stand and be recognized. Acceptance is the first step, of the many to come... let not denial and false hope keep you silent, for only together can we overcome.
RiTides wrote: Let not our alliance against this menace disintegrate before it even begins, brothers! Who it is that leads us matters not- it is that which we stand against.
There is only one trickster here, and his name is PVC:
I have atoned for my sins by returning to that which first nurtured me in my wargaming infancy- that resin of purest form, that which is cast by hand. Let me not falter now that I have begun on this new path!
The path of HIPS is another which may lead to freedom from this menace. Or a return to the ancient past, that which was forged in metal, when plastic was but a vision of a strange, unknown future. We know better now, brothers, let us not be tricked again!
\
I have never seen a monstrosity such as that. I have only dipped my toes into some PVC stuff trying to stick to metal (Infinity ect), but from what I have got I have never got something like that. I would say have mercy on its soul but a
figure/abominations like that is clearly built without a soul. On a side note, is DUST stuff made out of PVC? I like all the stuff I have got from them so far.
Known offenders so far-
Reaper Bones(but it's sold cheap, and does pretty well for large models)
Relic Knights(a lot is still unknown at this time)
Sedition Wars(can't ever remember which wave was the bad one)
Mantic(their elf line seems to be a top offender)
Would it be possible for the "Restic Knights" that are scarred by the stuff to post stuff that is PVC safe (ie PVC that isn't done badly) vs the PVC offenders (PVC of the "damned")? I already see some doomed PVC stuff is being listed.
RiTides wrote: ......and you're left, scattered all around you in your basement, with no friends left to comfort you, with this:
To be fair, the PVC Paladin (Left) looks better than the Polystrene Man at Arms (Right)... which is more bad sculpt than material.
Sinful - Most of Mantic's elf range suffers from sculpts that aren't popular, rather than material issues (the troops are all polystyrene). Deadzone, Dreadball, and Kings of War Kickstarter models are generally where the PVC stuff lays.
You saw nothing! I was in the middle of my editing magic! *Waves hands*
You are right, sister Cyporiean, even the best material cannot make up for a poor sculpt, as the image above so clearly illustrates.
But, PVC can take a beautiful sculpt and make it look as bad, or even worse... borrowing from the Relic Knights (not to be confused with our gathering here) thread:
Buzzsaw wrote: I have to say, looking at the renders that HecM delivered, versus how they came out is infuriating.
Marie Clause as she should be...
Spoiler:
And the grim reality.
Spoiler:
Even looking at the painted model, notice how the details on the back of her legs are completely gone. Ditto on the pin-striping on her suit.
Spoiler:
Everywhere one looks, detail has disappeared, proportions look like crap, ach. And I got her as a LE choice!
Woe is me, I gave it up I swear! I saw the damage restic was doing to my hobby and I said no more!
But Soda Pop were sneaky, they led me along with promises of a refund, but they lied! More restic is headed my way. I am ashamed.
I am glad you started this thread, many suffer from this debilitating condition, it is a painful condition that ultimately leads to insanity. The only known cure for Restic-halitosis is a Polystyrene injection at the base of the skull. Most do not survive....
Getting stuff like this makes you want to piss fire.
Mantic Deadzone orc. Ripped plastic in 2 places with miscast details in foot The replacement was ok.
Mantic Deadzone super awesome main reason for pledging plague monster(s).
These are replacements for the reported miscasts... that are sadly in better shape than these misaligned messes of flash overload.
Any reports of larger figures being fine in this material is pure luck.
The only materials I worked with prior to the material we know as "restic" was metal and hard plastic (GW plastic and typical airplane model kits).
I tell you the truth, at one point I hated metal. Biggest dead dog Sh!t material know to man. Vowed to never touch it again. But I saw Infinity, and said "that's ok". Infinity was like a beautiful woman with parents that don't like you. you tolerated it.
One day I saw sedition wars a year before the kickstarter and bought all their resin and metal figures. I even own 2 or 3 of those really rare Kara Black resin miniatures with mini gun. Fahkin Beautiful.
I was like the Joaquin Phoenix who fell in love with a computer but was a miniature.
Then one day Studio Mcvey and CMON come along saying they are going to make a board game on kickstarter. I was super excited. Bunch of miniatures in plastic, telling me that it was the same factory as Privateer press uses.
No way this could be bad, People love the warmachine like they love the Apple iPhone.
and then I see this on the front page too
From the mind of industry legend Mike McVey, and created by the finest artists, miniatures sculptors and game designers, the contents and play materials of the game are of the highest quality.. Sedition Wars : Battle for Alabaster represents the best that miniatures gaming has to offer!
The game contains –
50 highly detailed 28mm miniatures
50 Scenic miniature bases
5 double sided full colour expandable game boards
60 page rules and scenario book
Vanguard and Strain stat cards
100+ full colour game counters
Check out the detail of these great models!
After realizing towards the end we would be getting buckets of miniatures dirt cheap I had publicly question the quality we were getting.
Well, I regret asking that, I was like the justin bieber of the chat. I got crapped on by several people and someone reported me
Apparently using the phrase dead dog s#!t is not PC.
The result was like the dead dog sh!t burgers from McDonalds. Looks good on the picture what you get was horrible camel s#!t.
Tears, blood, stitches in the thumb and regret. That's what I got.
And harassment publicly and via PM on board game geek.
Sedition Wars was a bigger disappointment than Aaron Carter's life and music career.
And to make my misfortunes worse, I backed Relic Knights too.
Why? because I am dumber than the person who thought restic was a good idea.
After working with "restic"... I love the metal!
Sedition Wars will forever be remembered with the scar on my thumb.
Piston Honda wrote: Why? because I am dumber than the person who thought restic was a good idea.
After working with "restic"... I love the metal!
It occurs to me that perhaps you have stumbled upon the hidden designs of the restic movement. Originally conceived as a cheap alternative material to hard plastic, when implemented there were drawbacks, obviously, but also opportunity for those seeking to rein consumers back to metal and deter the push to "plastic".
Lament villains! for your secret is revealed and we will fight you in the open.
RiTides wrote: Hi Dentry, Zond. Thanks for sharing. Don't worry, we're all in different stages on our road to recovery, and by sharing we help one another along the way.
Whalemusic, I see you have seen the error of your ways, but fear not! We have all experienced that same sickening moment, and it's why we're here together, helping one another recover and right the wrongs we've done to ourselves and others in the name of restic.
Alpharius, your zeal is admirable, brother. But we have yet to hear your story. What has brought you to our circle of recovery?
Sinful Hero, you're right, and that's why we're here. For our errors in judgement do not affect us alone. There are others who fall victim, and worst of all, some of them are helpless to do anything about it:
You can't even see the pain on their faces. Why, you ask? Because of that which has formerly enslaved us, that which has brought us here: PVC plastic aka "restic"... our former drug of choice.
While I can understand how some can be disappointed in vinyl (and it doesn't help much when so much bad vinyl is still being pushed) I generally like PVC as a material. I've been dealing with it since the late 1980s though in larger scales - so I haven't had any surprises in working with it (and to be honest find cleaning mold lines as fast or faster on vinyl than with hard plastic...and a good bit faster than cleaning up metal or resin). It probably would have been better served if the manufacturers had helped to provide better information up front in how to use it (or even on the backside - as I really don't recall any official "How to work with PVC (restic, sprueless plastic, Bones...)" by any of the manufacturers. As a result of the trial and lots of errors - there has been more than its fair share of bad press.
However, case in point of this post. That sculpt didn't turn out well - Reaper did the right thing and removed that figure from sale. Other companies...well, not so much. At least with them, when they see they have a piece of " dead dog sh!t" they don't try to keep selling it. I know that they ended up swinging and missing on several figures, and pulled them as a result. The ones they kept in circulation - other than issues relating to the manufacturing process are perfectly acceptable to me (especially given the economy of them).
If more companies would be proactive on the production issues - I think a lot of you could learn to live with your habit...much like thousands of functioning alcoholics.
Of course, that wouldn't really help with sculpting that falls short of concept art expectations. However, you see that regardless of the material being used and is a different issue to address entirely.
I don't love restic, but I don't hate it. It's just another material to work with. Also, RITides, if you hate the Golems I got for you, I'll buy a unit of 6 back from you for the price paid.
Have any of you lords of mold slippage worked with the newer GW terrain? It did feel remarkably like restic. At the very least it's extra hard, and didn't come on sprue.
Not to get too much into detail, but I spent well over $250 on Sedition Wars stuff and ever since that terrible, proverbial dump truck of dark grey restic was dumped at my door. I have never wanted to touch RESTIC ever again! And I gave it a damn good go! I trimmed and cleaned, shaved and filed, for days, weeks, months even then on! The warpage of pieces was beyond factor 13, I burned mine hands many times with kettle, finger tip and bowl.
LOOK AT MY AVATAR! That's what restic did to me!
The road to restic is paved with good intentions..
I can't ascertain with any detail my stance on the quality of restic... perhaps a few hours of modeling might bring some clarity to the situation for me. Maybe a hot bath will help too!
Is there something special I should do to clean up my bones minis? I haven't had a chance to actually paint one yet. I assumed primer and go.
To keep with the topic, I've painted some AoW models that were restic, and they turned out alright. My complaints were more about the scarcity and lack of instructions for assembly and ability to modify.
buckero0 wrote: Is there something special I should do to clean up my bones minis? I haven't had a chance to actually paint one yet. I assumed primer and go.
To keep with the topic, I've painted some AoW models that were restic, and they turned out alright. My complaints were more about the scarcity and lack of instructions for assembly and ability to modify.
Be sure to try to clean them in soapy water- it will remove any funk from casting.
I have read the stories of my brothers, and share your pain. I was seduced by Sedition Wars, and persuaded by an inner voice to cast my lot with Deadzone.
After struggling with those tainted fruits, mingled with my blood and sweat and tears, I swore off restic for eternity.
I, too, am guilty of buying restic. Help me cast off the chains of this poison chalice.
But, but, but...I'm assured that a brass brush is the complete cure for restic mold lines. Couple hours per mini with a new hobby knife for each limb/weapon (to keep them sharp and precise) plus a long brass brush session makes restic a dream to work with
I first got restic when Privateer started using it. When their two player starters for warmachine came out, I got a bunch of menoth stuff for cheap off of eBay. It was pretty disappointing, but I got the figures in shape and they painted up alright. I made the mistake of painting one jack before I hot water straightened it's weapons and now it just keeps bending back each time I straighten it. I'm worried if I try to hot water straighten it now, the paint would be damaged or flake off or something.
I didn't participate in the Reaper Bones Kickstarter, but I've bought the occasional model. I find the material to be far better than the hard grey PVC stuff, but it still has its limitations. Reaper's sculpts that have deep details in metal made the transition to the bendy PVC just fine. The sculpts with shallow details though, are best avoided. I also find that higher end files can take off the mould lines without creating fuzzies at all. The ones I have are 2x100 files.
I don't think I'll ever buy another hard grey PVC miniature, but I'm sure I'll buy more Bones. The ones with deeper sculpted details only though.
I am zedmeister and I am part of the holy order of resin. Resin is the most holy, most pure of materials. Though it is to be treated with reverence and care lest the resins gods smite you with broken swords.
Though, I too have betrayed my resin brotherhood and veered close to becoming a traitor restic knight. Though my tale is a sad one for I was lured to my doom through my worship of resin. Beautiful photos of resin masters were showcased, paint jobs unsurpassed and a kickstarter at the right price. My wallet was opened and my fate sealed. When I received my box I was horrified. For while the detail was good the cleanup was monstrous. My soul cried out as I proceeded to clean every last restic piece I had. Sharp knives, diamond files, old toothbrushes were employed along with my own tears. Ranked up to the side, my painted resin figures looked on at me, a look of pity in their eyes. Darklands, Forgeworld, Kingdom Death and Studio McVey all felt betrayed at my actions. For 4 months I persevered until every last one was cleaned. I looked down at my work and was pleased, but felt empty for such effort should be better spent on painting. In atonement, I immediately commenced painting resin.
However, the experience has taught me to be wary of the restic dogs Mantic and CMON and I have thus far resisted further attempts at temptation. So brothers, you Styrene Shevaliers, you resin clerics, you lords of metal, heed my tale and beware. Don't be tempted to join the restic knights, the darkest of forms. Stay true to your heart!
For many years I have had a fulfilling relationship with metal. Metal has even understood my need to occasionally dabble with HIPS and hand cast resin.
But after a relationship of nearly 30 years, my eyes were turned by a young nubile new material. Mantic were launching a sports game just as GW were abandoning my true love of Bloodbowl. So I wandered. Even when metal tried to keep me faithful by Mantic offering me the first 2 Dreadball teams in metal at the Derby wargames show, I was lusting wholeheartedly for this sleek young model so much that I turned them down to await the delivery of this fresh thing into my hands.
Then it arrived. It felt slimy, lightweight, lacking in depth, cheap, slutty. I tried to make it work Brothers. I scrubbed the figures, tried to scrape off the rough edges all new projects had. I even attempted to paint this whore of Babylon.
Never again.
Don't listen to these cheap temptresses. Metal has been my wife for longer than my wife has been. I will stay faithful from here my darling, I promise.
Thank you for sharing your woeful tales, valiant knights. Though our scars run deep, when brought to light the ache is dulled and the fires doused.
So I will share my encounter with a beautiful lady. Commiserating with many a story told here, it began amicably enough.
She stood there at the ready, weapon poised, eyes dangerous; an alluring temptress stealing my focus. I stared and dreamed of what could be and lost myself in thought. Seizing upon the opportunity my haze presented her, she approached and whispered in my ear her price. A moment longer I stared... perhaps more, and, my decision made, took her offer. After several hours - days perhaps, I can no longer tell - our business concluded, I paid and she left. Unspoken we knew we'd meet again.
We've shared several encounters since then. Always she possessed that same allure as the cursed day I first laid eyes on her, if anything the attraction between us only grew; my money, her looks. Recently we met again; same place as usual. My smile failed as she was revealed to me for the first time, seeing her clearly a cold hand gripped my heart. Was this what I had paid for years ago? No. I knew then the horrible truth. The beauty beheld that first day had been nothing more than the creatures guise, a ruse to trick wary fools from their earnings and turn men to cattle from which it could sustain itself.
These long years has it fed upon me and I fear my torment is not yet done. Her voice, once a soothing hymn, haunts me. She whispers the same message over and over: she... it comes.
I am an advocate for HIPS above all other materials. It is the best material for the consumer - it can be reliably be manufactured in arbitrarily large quantities for an extremely low per-model price. If you want to collect an army, it is cheap, reliable and does not suffer supply problems. Its one weakness - the inability to bend the material to allow for undercuts - is a strength, as it makes it impossible for idiots to design miniatures that will warp when forced from the moulds, and encourages multi-part design that is great for letting people personalise their army.
It is more expensive to start up, but that's what Kickstarter is for - to get the capital to get your business off the ground. Using Kickstarter for restic does a disservice to the customer: restic already forces many of its problems onto the end user - the unreliable quality, the difficulty of cleaning the miniatures, the higher price per model - and expecting the customer to pay for the miniatures months in advance of production is just another insult added to injury.
Sorry, i cannot join your band of heretics as am a follower of the jealous Hello Kitty god. Here in the land of the rising son most of the beautiful Hello Kitty Idols are made out of PVC or restic as it is called in the west.
Lo and behold, dear brothers, another veteran of the PVC campaign, though I did no serve in the Mantic or Relic theaters.
I earned my Knighthood in the Cryx battlebox, moving on to the Khador and Convergence after that. The conflicts were varied, ranging from light duty to bloody slogs. Though I kept the faith, as the end results were acceptable for the costs paid.
And then came the Herald of McVey. And trumpets did sound, and banners were raised. The campaign was promised to be fruitful. Alas, the first wave was fraught with mold lines and boiling liquids, shaping us and our figures with disturbing necessity. The first wave was salvaged, but the second, with villainous scales (not unlike the wyverns of old, if by nature and not form) and questionable assembly was almost abandoned. But I slogged on. Though the final product of both campaigns sit in a box, assembled but unused, waiting for a ruleset to free them from cardboard bondage.
I am wearied brothers, but upon seeing the fruits of the Relic and Mantic theaters, I understand your despair. I will continue to hold the banner, if only in the campaign's of Privateer Press.
Hi Joyboozer, RedSarge, gohkm, frozenwastes, zedmeister, richred_uk, monders, gunslingerpro, and I'd like to make special mention of Piston Honda, who inspired our order and is my sponsor/mentor. Thank you all for sharing your stories.
Thank you also to those supporters here, who may not have shared our affliction but can learn from our tales of woe. I'd like to make particular note of the comment from the supporter below:
privateer4hire wrote: But, but, but...I'm assured that a brass brush is the complete cure for restic mold lines. Couple hours per mini with a new hobby knife for each limb/weapon (to keep them sharp and precise) plus a long brass brush session makes restic a dream to work with
Perhaps you didn't brush the miniature the required 8-10 hours per section of mold line?
It is a cruel mistress, isn't it? Many of us did not even make it this far, instead shamefully hiding our failures in the basement. Thank you for bringing some of the cost to light, the time spent serving such an unforgiving master. But the true cost cannot be measured only in time, or money, or the cuts on our fingers, but in the damage done to our hobbying souls.
Each of us are in different places on this journey, but together, supporting one another, we can venture fourth toward the light of freedom that is HIPS, resin, or even metal.
I had just remembered that I had told a local store that I wanted one of each code for PP's new Cephalyx models. This was back when the first video was shown. I've since found out that everything but the caster and solos will be in hard grey PVC. So an email was sent. And the order is no more!
I replaced it with an order for some Victrix 54mm Napoleonics. In hard styrene no less.
I'm a veteran of the Mantic theater of the Restic Wars. I blindly supported a company that made great hard plastic undead models...sadly I was left wounded and dying on the Kings of War Kickstarter then the grim reaper of Deadzone came along and performed the coupe de grace that sent me screaming into the deepest pits of Restic Hell. Save me brothers!
One thing Mantic does with their restic that must hide the poison long enough for it to be drunk is to provide an impressive quantity of figures for you coin. I fear you may be inundated beyond hope.
I once had an encounter with a new model company... She teased me, promised me stuff, looked amazing. I took her home and when we got down to business I was exposed to the most horrible revelation... RESTIC! Damage, mold lines, terrible material... looked nothing like her photos. She took my money and left me sad and alone with piles of trashy models.
I am now emotionally damaged as I distrust all kickstarters and model companies now... They get offended when I want to do a material check before pledging. I have a hard line RESTIC ban.
I wish that every KS thread in news and rumors would be forced to put the model material in bold brackets so we could quickly see and avoid those KSs. I keep getting excited for stuff and only later finding that they are hiding the fact that they are making garbage restic figures which will not turn out anywhere close to the resin prototypes they tease with.
Friends don't let friends pledge Restic companies KSs and take them home with them.
That is incredible work, brother basement! It will remind us all of the pitfalls of restic every time we view our banner. I will edit it into the first post, along with a list of the members of our order, once home.
Also welcome nkelsch, thanks for sharing your story with restic addiction. She truly is a fickle mistress.
Basement dweller,that is absolutely gorgeous work. I'd like a high res version as well, if you care to share; I see a T-shirt in my future, with your permission of course.
@RiTides, alas the toils shared around the not so round table moved me to such a degree I could not leave it alone. I am however saddened I could not suitably fit in the mishaps of boiling water in a satisfactory way.
@P Honda
Any particular size?
@Agnosto - hehe thanks. Unfortunately as it turns out I am stupid as I was doodling for fun and didn't think ahead. It's the original format - but if it's really something that people would like on a t-shirt I'd make the effort.
I wish that every KS thread in news and rumors would be forced to put the model material in bold brackets so we could quickly see and avoid those KSs. I keep getting excited for stuff and only later finding that they are hiding the fact that they are making garbage restic figures which will not turn out anywhere close to the resin prototypes they tease with.
Friends don't let friends pledge Restic companies KSs and take them home with them.
All kidding aside, this is a great idea!
Current campaigns to be VERY wary of:
Drakerys
Fallen Frontiers
basement.dweller wrote:
Because apparently I've got too much time on my hands...
In short: The flexible type has DEHP or other pthalates that are most probably carcinogenic and the HARD PLASTIC usually contains lead as the main stabiliser when coming from China in amounts that are way above what is deemed safe.
So we ditched leadfree tin-soldiers to get our lead from HARD PLASTIC. Awesome
basement.dweller wrote: @RiTides, alas the toils shared around the not so round table moved me to such a degree I could not leave it alone. I am however saddened I could not suitably fit in the mishaps of boiling water in a satisfactory way.
@P Honda
Any particular size?
@Agnosto - hehe thanks. Unfortunately as it turns out I am stupid as I was doodling for fun and didn't think ahead. It's the original format - but if it's really something that people would like on a t-shirt I'd make the effort.
In short: The flexible type has DEHP or other pthalates that are most probably carcinogenic and the HARD PLASTIC usually contains lead as the main stabiliser when coming from China in amounts that are way above what is deemed safe.
So we ditched leadfree tin-soldiers to get our lead from HARD PLASTIC. Awesome
Another reason why specifics matter.
There may not be a grain of salt large enough for this. Child safety sites basically say everything will kill your baby. Seriously, I have a 5 month old and spent the first two months looking up actual medical studies for most of the gak people post as dangerous to babies/kids, and the vast majority of it is total crap. Even by medical study standards.
Lots of reasons to hate PVC, but "it will kill you/make you sick/give you squirrel aids" is not really a good one.
Brothers, while I appreciate your zeal, I would like to clarify one thing for myself. I am not here to boycott or ruin anyone's Kickstarter. I respect our esteemed colleagues DaveC, OrlandoTheTechnicoloured, and others too much to do that.
As sister Cyporiean points out, PVC has it's place. That place is, I heartily believe, firmly in the realm of board games, chibi miniatures, or those with oversized features:
It is only when this substance is used to ensnare miniature gamers in a web of mold lines, soft detail and false promises that we should take note, and hold one another accountable.
But for myself and some others here, this is an inward journey, one of identifying and facing my demons. Maybe there are people out there who can toil at PVC wargaming miniatures, removing mold lines, adding detail, bending features. But I know myself now, and I do not have the self control for such a task.
I am a Restic Knight, and my PVC belongs tucked safely away in the board gaming box. There I am kept safe from it's seduction, it's siren song of cheap wargaming armies, it's promises which always fall short. Help me keep it there, brothers.
I think that when done well restic can be just as good as the other resin/metal/etc with great prices. The problem however is that Privateer Press are seriously darkening the image of PVc with their own attempt at the material. Lol...... Quality hardly better than reaper bones for nearly 3x the price.
Sinful Hero wrote: My brothers, I fear there is a new menace on the rise! The Others - 7 Sins appears to be made from restic...
And several dastardly warning signs are afoot!
1. Multiple companies involved to spread the blame around!
2. Knockoff pop culture characters as an incentive!
3. Mostly concept art!
And it is sorely tempting me... Indeed it is...
This is going to hurt, but please remember. I am only here to help.
Spoiler. Images NSFW, children or those with weak stomachs.
Sinful Hero wrote: My brothers, I fear there is a new menace on the rise! The Others - 7 Sins appears to be made from restic...
And several dastardly warning signs are afoot!
1. Multiple companies involved to spread the blame around!
2. Knockoff pop culture characters as an incentive!
3. Mostly concept art!
And it is sorely tempting me... Indeed it is...
This is going to hurt, but please remember. I am only here to help.
Spoiler. Images NSFW, children or those with weak stomachs.
[spoiler]
Spoiler:
[/spoiler]
To really illustrate the hurt, you have to have the size comparison to Wave 1.
while I won't disavow PVC the above makes a very powerful point
If you choose to use the devils medium you MUST tell the sculptors but bulk everything up to allow for shrinkage... I does not work for true-scale anything
My eyes! Why must you torment us so, Azazel? Would you hold out a drink before a man dying of thirst in the desert? Even a cup of bitter saltwater, half filled with sand may tempt him.
Brothers, only open the above images after reminding yourselves of who you are- Restic Knights, not to be tricked by this fool's gold, no matter the pretty packaging (renders and artwork) it is presented with!
Take heed of the soft and lacking detail, and be not led astray by the beguiling model who tempts you to taste such an unsatisfying draught. Knights of the somewhat round table, remember who you are!
RiTides wrote: My eyes! Why must you torment us so, Azazel? Would you hold out a drink before a man dying of thirst in the desert? Even a cup of bitter saltwater, half filled with sand may tempt him.
Brothers, only open the above images after reminding yourselves of who you are- Restic Knights, not to be tricked by this fool's gold, no matter the pretty packaging (renders and artwork) it is presented with!
Take heed of the soft and lacking detail, and be not led astray by the beguiling model who tempts you to taste such an unsatisfying draught. Knights of the somewhat round table, remember who you are!
The brother was in danger of having his willpower lapse. I thought it only best to show an example of what the warning signs can portent...
1. Multiple companies involved to spread the blame around!
2. Knockoff pop culture characters as an incentive!
3. Mostly concept art!
And of course, that most hideous of resticular names. The fallen Angel, the painter, McVey is involved. Again.
1. Multiple companies involved to spread the blame around!
This is a disturbing new trend... It is like saying "When Beth was alone, or Beth was married to Chuck, she drowned both her babies... Don't worry, this time Beth is married to Frank so this baby won't drown horribly!"
We make fun, brothers, but let us remember what is at stake. From one of our young brothers in another thread:
Zond wrote: I'm tempted just to pledge for paints. Although I night stay for the models even if PVC, sacrificing my sanity for final answers, proving my valour to the Restic Knights. I shall fall on to my sword, broken, bent, twisted. Not through injury but merely as I forgot to use hot water to straighten things out.
We do not promote self-flagellation or martyrdom here, brother. Others have already sacrificed, and we stand upon the knowledge they claimed, through drops of blood sprinkled on unholy plastic.
Only venture forth when you are sure, brother, not wavering as you are now.
scarletsquig wrote: The quality has gone down since then, some of my deadzone stuff doesn't have faces.
Without faces, how will we know when they are in pain? How will we know, brothers?
RiTides wrote: My eyes! Why must you torment us so, Azazel? Would you hold out a drink before a man dying of thirst in the desert? Even a cup of bitter saltwater, half filled with sand may tempt him.
Brothers, only open the above images after reminding yourselves of who you are- Restic Knights, not to be tricked by this fool's gold, no matter the pretty packaging (renders and artwork) it is presented with!
Take heed of the soft and lacking detail, and be not led astray by the beguiling model who tempts you to taste such an unsatisfying draught. Knights of the somewhat round table, remember who you are!
Thank you, brother. This malady compels me and my thoughts turn not entirely my own.
Maybe it's not as bad as it looks? It could be a poor photograph(?) not indicative of what I'll actually receive. I'm certain with some careful attention and fine paint, I could change her.
Lies! Do not listen!
The resounding voice of RiTides cuts through this fog entreating me take hold of my sanity and fight! I listen and raise my shield, its blob-like undiscernable emblem glinting in the clouded hall.
My thanks, brothers. The Knights Plastic have saved me once more. We falter but never again shall we fall!
Though I have resisted joining these halls of Dakka for a great time, this cause is far too great for me to remain silent.
I, too, shall join the crusade against the accursed Restic.
My initial confrontation with it was through Privateer Press, from several factions (including some of the worst offenders: the Cryx battlebox and Convergence).
I was tempted, and succumbed, by Relic Knights, and pledge an obscene amount to obtain all of those models. I was initially hopeful, as I had the metal and resin models from Soda Pop, and thought, naively, that perhaps even though I heard these would be made by the same hell-forge that produced the Privateer Press restics, these would somehow be better.
Then I saw the recent photos of the "final production" samples from Soda Pop, and realized that I had been decieved--both by the Deke and by my own, lustful heart.
And now I fear deeply that I shall be burned yet again by the Wrath of Kings...
We must band together, and offer our strength of numbers to avoid this accursed plague on our hobby, and steer the innocent away from this vile beast.
I am not that good of a painter, and never will be.
Tis true. Tis true.
Also, do not be swayed by those dark hearted silver tongued daemons who attempt to peddle these shrunken victuals. Do not be swayed by fancy paintwork. Beware the dire temptations of the bared boob, the exposed genitals and the full rounded curves! For to be tempted by that path leads to damnation. Finally, we must know the many names of the horror, for us to know its name is anathema to the shrunken beast. We know it as, PVC, Restic, Warcast but what other disguises does this horror have?
They all come with but one purpose - to ensure your thumbs bleed, to keep your knives blunt and to crush your very soul!
Valander wrote: Though I have resisted joining these halls of Dakka for a great time, this cause is far too great for me to remain silent.
I, too, shall join the crusade against the accursed Restic.
My initial confrontation with it was through Privateer Press, from several factions (including some of the worst offenders: the Cryx battlebox and Convergence).
I was tempted, and succumbed, by Relic Knights, and pledge an obscene amount to obtain all of those models. I was initially hopeful, as I had the metal and resin models from Soda Pop, and thought, naively, that perhaps even though I heard these would be made by the same hell-forge that produced the Privateer Press restics, these would somehow be better.
Then I saw the recent photos of the "final production" samples from Soda Pop, and realized that I had been decieved--both by the Deke and by my own, lustful heart.
And now I fear deeply that I shall be burned yet again by the Wrath of Kings...
We must band together, and offer our strength of numbers to avoid this accursed plague on our hobby, and steer the innocent away from this vile beast.
Wow, hi Valander. I was confused there for a second, thought I had changed tabs without realizing it Glad you could join us, oh Infernal Penguin!
I am with you though, waiting to receive and weep upon my box of Relic Knights, and increasingly concerned over my Wrath of Kings order. I am alway torn when I see a new plastic unit from PP, as the cost savings over metal is so nice, but having to clean and prep the models is really obnoxious. So much so that I continually find myself spending more on counts-as models that I won't be able to use in official tournaments anyway.
Remember: Restic hurts those who can bear it the least, those without impulse control.
Valander wrote: Though I have resisted joining these halls of Dakka for a great time, this cause is far too great for me to remain silent.
I, too, shall join the crusade against the accursed Restic.
My initial confrontation with it was through Privateer Press, from several factions (including some of the worst offenders: the Cryx battlebox and Convergence).
I was tempted, and succumbed, by Relic Knights, and pledge an obscene amount to obtain all of those models. I was initially hopeful, as I had the metal and resin models from Soda Pop, and thought, naively, that perhaps even though I heard these would be made by the same hell-forge that produced the Privateer Press restics, these would somehow be better.
Then I saw the recent photos of the "final production" samples from Soda Pop, and realized that I had been decieved--both by the Deke and by my own, lustful heart.
And now I fear deeply that I shall be burned yet again by the Wrath of Kings...
We must band together, and offer our strength of numbers to avoid this accursed plague on our hobby, and steer the innocent away from this vile beast.
Wow, hi Valander. I was confused there for a second, thought I had changed tabs without realizing it Glad you could join us, oh Infernal Penguin!
The Infernal Penguin??!? On Dakka? In our order? Behold brothers! Behold the Omen of the coming resticalypse !
Greetings my fellow Restic Knights. I am MIC, also know as Miniatures In Color. I did not know I was buying into the Restic situation, and that it would be such a hardship for me. But I have come to find out that I too am now a Restic Knight and I have a problem.
Thankfully there is Free-Bay, I can sell this crap as soon as it lands on my doorstep... but I must confess, I also suffer from Figmentia and have a Figmata complex, so letting go, even of horrid miniatures made from this sad pathetic material maybe harder for me than it is for you. But I will try to be strong, I will try to up hold our oath to one another. I will stop arguing with White Knights on the Soda Pop forums for I fear they are lost to us. Those poor wretched souls. Have piety on them for they are blind to the reality of the hell they live in.
LOL, Wow Valander, people sure love to kiss your ass. I have known you since the 3rd grade, oh wait its that whole you were purple thing.. I get it.. I guess our long relationship and friendship that jades me from all that is the Daemonic Penguin, I have become blind to its greatness. LOL
Automatically Appended Next Post: This, this right here, is BAD ASS! I hope you dont mind but it is my Avatar on Facebook now. Must spread the word.. and I plan to print this out and make it banners for my banner holders, no matter the game.
Hi Valander and MIC. Thanks for joining, and sharing. It is a welcome sight to see brothers from distant lands flocking together to aid one another in our common cause!
MiniaturesInColor wrote: ... but I must confess, I also suffer from Figmentia and have a Figmata complex, so letting go, even of horrid miniatures made from this sad pathetic material maybe harder for me than it is for you.
Ah, the weakness in us all, that the restic menace so easily exposes. For by it's very cheapness, it comes at such a great cost- more and more models, of ever lower quality, pile up in our basements. They have become a veritable ball and chain for each of us, keeping us bound to that from which we most desire to be freed.
But take heart, brother! The time has come to step into the light, to spill forth the hidden bowels of our restic hoards, to name that which has caused us to fall so far:
RiTides wrote: To Alpharius- As you say, we are a circle here, with no head and no foot.
No WE ARE RESTIC KNIGTS, JUST BLOBS OF PLASTIC, WITH NO DETAIL, WE ARE THE FACELESS!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: Hi Valander and MIC. Thanks for joining, and sharing. It is a welcome sight to see brothers from distant lands flocking together to aid one another in our common cause!
Ah, the weakness in us all, that the restic menace so easily exposes. For by it's very cheapness, it comes at such a great cost- more and more models, of ever lower quality, pile up in our basements. They have become a veritable ball and chain for each of us, keeping us bound to that from which we most desire to be freed.
But take heart, brother! The time has come to step into the light, to spill forth the hidden bowels of our restic hoards, to name that which has caused us to fall so far:
"Devil, thy name is RESTIC!"
Thanks for the Welcome, My Devil is known by thy name Relic Knights. This has saddened me due to the false promises, the lies, and lack of communication by CMON and Soda Pop. My Pain runs deep, and the scars are still fresh and pink. Statements like, "Sorry for the delay, we want to be sure to bring you the highest quality product we can so these delays will ensure that we bring your the best quality we can." Now we have blobs of plastic, faceless models, pictures that hide and disguise what we all know to be the truth, FACELESS POD PEOPLE! THE HORROR, THE HORROR!
Decided to make that an Avatar. We are the Faceless.
Definitely. Wrist joints are fine for single handed weapons, but as soon as you have to line up both wrists, it can get a lot worse very quickly.
I've started going through my storage drawers. It's time for a culling. I already have too many projects going on and I think it's time to root out the last of the hard grey PVC blasphemy. Just as a beaten child can't help but forward abuse onto the next generation, I will inflict my PVC on an unwitting eBay buyer.
Thank you for the effigies reminding us of our dark past, brother agnosto. Though it pains us to see them now, may it strengthen our resolve when the tempter comes. For cometh he will! We must be ever vigilant, lest the weak among us fall.
Thank you brothers, despite being burned by Sedition Wars and Mantic I have been queuing with the pilgrims on the road to Drakerys.
Thine commitment to rooting out this heresy has brought enlightenment unto me in mine time of need and I have been able to step back from the precipice and pull my pledge before that dastardly material could cleave mine hopes in twain once more.
frozenwastes wrote: I first got restic when Privateer started using it. When their two player starters for warmachine came out, I got a bunch of menoth stuff for cheap off of eBay. It was pretty disappointing, but I got the figures in shape and they painted up alright. I made the mistake of painting one jack before I hot water straightened it's weapons and now it just keeps bending back each time I straighten it. I'm worried if I try to hot water straighten it now, the paint would be damaged or flake off or something.
I used the hot water method on my painted MOW Shocktrooper weapons after their weapons got bent due to pressure from being inside my case. The paint held up OK.
I neither decry restic as a charlatan's tool, nor do I claim that restic is the path to enlightenment. While its performance is limited based on its properties, the final outcome is also greatly determined by the skill of its employer. I first met the restic hordes in the Privateer Press theatre and cursed the mess of mould lines that poured forth from my new purchase. In time, by spending valuable skill points in "wield x-acto", I was able to reduce my penalty to remove mould-line to a -2 skill check. Some mould lines to this day, still resist my abilities to remove, but I have learned that some battles are better off not fought. While acceptable for models with large surfaces, the PP Cyriss models are a disaster. At one point, I sent a recon force into the Reaper theatre... There has yet to be any report from this foray, as I have yet to do anything with the test model. While the details aren't what modellers are accustomed to... they are... acceptable, and more akin to the features of yesteryear... like Dungeons and Dragons figures from the dreaded AGE OF LEAD. (NOTE: The prices are similar to the AGE OF LEAD, so I don't know what the bellyaching regarding BONES is). We were able to overcome the featureless masses then, and we should be able to overcome now.
Baragash wrote: Thank you brothers, despite being burned by Sedition Wars and Mantic I have been queuing with the pilgrims on the road to Drakerys.
Thine commitment to rooting out this heresy has brought enlightenment unto me in mine time of need and I have been able to step back from the precipice and pull my pledge before that dastardly material could cleave mine hopes in twain once more.
AZAZELX that pledge brother - AZAZELX it!!!
Though I think the scenery there has been confirmed as 'hard plastic'?
Baragash wrote: Thank you brothers, despite being burned by Sedition Wars and Mantic I have been queuing with the pilgrims on the road to Drakerys.
Thine commitment to rooting out this heresy has brought enlightenment unto me in mine time of need and I have been able to step back from the precipice and pull my pledge before that dastardly material could cleave mine hopes in twain once more.
AZAZELX that pledge brother - AZAZELX it!!!
Though I think the scenery there has been confirmed as 'hard plastic'?
I thought that was a malevolent illusion that bewitched us? (Translation: TBH I wasn't in for scenery anyway so I haven't been paying attention, but I kept getting the feeling that "hard plastic" was referring to the type of restic they were using rather than what we all mean by "hard plastic". Because companies aren't at all evasive about what material they're using on Kickstarter........what was that? Did someone shout "Mantic" from the back?)
Good question Baragash - I thought 'hard plastic' for the terrain meant just that, and that the SUPER-DOOPER IMPROOVED PVC was just for the miniatures.
keezus wrote:I sent a recon force into the Reaper theatre... There has yet to be any report from this foray, as I have yet to do anything with the test model. While the details aren't what modellers are accustomed to... they are... acceptable, and more akin to the features of yesteryear... like Dungeons and Dragons figures from the dreaded AGE OF LEAD. (NOTE: The prices are similar to the AGE OF LEAD, so I don't know what the bellyaching regarding BONES is). We were able to overcome the featureless masses then, and we should be able to overcome now.
Thanks for letting me know about the hot water thing turning out alright with your painted miniature. I will try doing the hot water trick on my already painted warjack. Hopefully it won't mandate a repaint.
It is entirely dependent on the sculpt for what works with bones. When your recon force reports, you will find the results will be based entirely on whether or not the given sculpt was suitable for the material. If the recon force happens upon a sculpt with shallow detail that metal would faithfully produce, the reports will be most negative. if, on the other hand, the sculpt in question is deep and exaggerated in its details, the reports will be positive.
Someone made a thread with the same miniature in both Bones and Metal
Had he either straightened the staff with the hot water trick or intentionally bent the metal one to fool people, it would be a lot harder to tell on detail alone.
Fortunately the hot water trick largely fixes problems like that. It's all about avoiding the sculpts that are unsuited to the material, using the hot water trick and using a sufficiently high quality file to remove the mould lines.
I would actually argue that Bones PVC isn't the same animal as the hard grey PVC. It's still no styrene. And certainly not metal nor resin. But I would take a Bones miniature over a Mantic "sprueless plastic" miniature or a Privateer plastic miniature any day of the week.
Will I ever buy a Bones miniature sight unseen? Not a chance. Will I ever participate in a Bones related Kickstarter? No way. Instead I get to see what I'm buying in person at the local store and decide if the sculpt works in Bones or not before I buy it. I helped my friend sort his dump of miniatures from the first Bones kickstarter and there were too many that I considered rejects to ever buy them blind.
I have been pretty happy with my Bones models so far, despite being the namesake for the "Wehrkind Spongy Factor." I have pissed around with painting one over and over, and generally found that the detail isn't a lot worse than a mid-range model from a small manufacturer. Bigger models look much better, and there are some serious misses. I wouldn't buy them sight unseen, but considering the retail prices are super low (back towards what I remember from the 80s but with 20 years of inflation on everything else) I don't mind picking them up from the store. Most importantly, I know exactly what I am getting, and wouldn't buy them for display or center piece models. In fact, the majority of my first KS order are going to be my daughter's first models when she is ready to take up the mantle of geekdom.
Kilkrazy wrote: Pretty easy with some wet and dry paper I should have thought.
Is the material very soft?
If it's anything like PP plastic, sanding seems to scar the plastic.
Indeed it does. PVC is tough, really tough. When filing or sanding I find the plastic, for want of a better description, tears and rips. I find that lots of stiff brushing with an old toothbrush along with very sharp knives which blunt quicker than normal are the best tools to use.
Indeed it does. PVC is tough, really tough. When filing or sanding I find the plastic, for want of a better description, tears and rips. I find that lots of stiff brushing with an old toothbrush along with very sharp knives which blunt quicker than normal are the best tools to use.
Yeah, I've found essentially the same, though I've had luck scraping with some of my older, duller blades. Usually works best on curved pieces, and only on PP models, which seem a bit softer than the Sedition Wars stuff.
Kilkrazy wrote: Pretty easy with some wet and dry paper I should have thought.
Is the material very soft?
If it's anything like PP plastic, sanding seems to scar the plastic.
Indeed it does. PVC is tough, really tough. When filing or sanding I find the plastic, for want of a better description, tears and rips. I find that lots of stiff brushing with an old toothbrush along with very sharp knives which blunt quicker than normal are the best tools to use.
Some really good quality files seem to work ok, but I've blunted so many blades just cleaning up one of my deadzone factions the rest are still sat in the box :(
zedmeister wrote: CaptJake cursed my eyes with this. Look upon this abomination. Look upon it!
How many blades would it take to clean this? How many cuts and Knicks to your thumb? Is it even possible?
Challenge accepted! I too have two of those glorious warmachines. I've a set of new blades and files at home and am willing to make a blood scarfice in cleaning it up for your viewing pleasure
I think this thread highlights what is IMO a big difference between GW and other manufacturers.
While GW may now be merely equal or even falling behind on sculpt quality (depending on your particular aesthetic preference), their casting quality is still leagues ahead of the competition.
The multi-part plastic approach lets GW hide mould lines on the edges or undersides of panels, or at least place them on the ridge lines for extremely easy removal.
Compare this to PP models which consistently have flash lines running down the centre of their face, or the ridiculous lines on Deadzone models. My deadzone enforcer captain had a the largest mould slippage line I've ever seen running horizontally across the concave middle of his cape. Ill try to find a photo. If it was GW I would have returned the kit promptly, but that just seemed par for the course with Mantic
Trasvi wrote:While GW may now be merely equal or even falling behind on sculpt quality (depending on your particular aesthetic preference), their casting quality is still leagues ahead of the competition.
Finecast. Never forget.
But yes, other than some wonky poses and sculpting aesthetic issues, their plastics are a dream to work with.
Our halls echo with hushed tones and muttered curses. The name Draekerys is whispered from the cracked lips of returning knights; sword hilts firm in hand, shields gripped tight, eyes restless. Curious. I sought out this new threat and found it, but am unable to discern its nature.
The alchemists handling the beast call it benign. They say they've raised it and bred out all wickedness.
What kind of plastic do you use for the miniatures?
Our cumulated previous experience with plastic miniatures on other endeavours has made us decide on a very hard PVC plastic. We want your minis to be durable, not the scary "melt in the sun" crap. We are currently discussing these processing options with our manufacturer and we are extremely demanding (and our manufacturer is extremely experienced and known in the gaming industry) cause we don't make crap and we don't sell crap. It's a matter of honor. Plus, it goes without saying but it's better to say it : we would replace immediately and at no charge any defective product. PVC plastic can be chewy and soft or hard as a rock depending on the process and solidifying procedure used. We decided to not make more margin at your expense by using a process that would make small parts bendable. We want you to have crisp details and resilient minis on the table.
Dentry wrote: They say they've raised it and bred out all wickedness.
That's what they all say, Finecast included. If it is true, wait for them to prove it by putting production casts in people's hands and having them verify their claims.
Just imagine every other PVC kickstarter and none of them were saying things like "the details will suck and mould line removal will be awful". Instead they were boosting their product as best they can.
And then decide if you really want to risk money on "it'll be different this time."
Brother basement, your works continues to inspire.
Yet it also serves as a grim reminder of our plight. How can we hope to fight with such weaponry? Brother Zond has already experienced the futility therein:
Zond wrote: I'm tempted just to pledge for paints. Although I night stay for the models even if PVC, sacrificing my sanity for final answers, proving my valour to the Restic Knights. I shall fall on to my sword, broken, bent, twisted. Not through injury but merely as I forgot to use hot water to straighten things out.
Arm yourselves with the substances of truth, brothers- that blessed trinity of HIPS, resin, and metal. Cast aside your former arms upon the slightly round table, and forge them anew!
For those who yet labor upon the PVC anvil, we will honor you. A blood drive has begun for thine forthcoming needs.
Indeed it does. PVC is tough, really tough. When filing or sanding I find the plastic, for want of a better description, tears and rips. I find that lots of stiff brushing with an old toothbrush along with very sharp knives which blunt quicker than normal are the best tools to use.
Yeah, I've found essentially the same, though I've had luck scraping with some of my older, duller blades. Usually works best on curved pieces, and only on PP models, which seem a bit softer than the Sedition Wars stuff.
If you must persist in your labors, brothers, take careful note of our fellow's arms below:
frozenwastes wrote: I first got restic when Privateer started using it. When their two player starters for warmachine came out, I got a bunch of menoth stuff for cheap off of eBay. It was pretty disappointing, but I got the figures in shape and they painted up alright. I made the mistake of painting one jack before I hot water straightened it's weapons and now it just keeps bending back each time I straighten it. I'm worried if I try to hot water straighten it now, the paint would be damaged or flake off or something.
I didn't participate in the Reaper Bones Kickstarter, but I've bought the occasional model. I find the material to be far better than the hard grey PVC stuff, but it still has its limitations. Reaper's sculpts that have deep details in metal made the transition to the bendy PVC just fine. The sculpts with shallow details though, are best avoided. I also find that higher end files can take off the mould lines without creating fuzzies at all. The ones I have are 2x100 files.
I don't think I'll ever buy another hard grey PVC miniature, but I'm sure I'll buy more Bones. The ones with deeper sculpted details only though.
But I urge you. Consider the cost of what you are about to embark on. You may remove that blemish which you set yourself upon... but at what cost? At what damage to your hobbying soul? To your spouse, as you take out your frustration upon them? To the very fingers with which you type upon the holy Dakka?
How will we know you have fallen, dear brother, if your fingers are to be sacrificed? How will we know?
I actually have looked into getting the very fine chainmail gloves fish butchers use, but they are around 90-100$. You can get fiber knit protective gloves for about 12$ a pair though on Amazon (Epica Cut Resistant Gloves). I haven't taken the plunge yet, but it might well be worth trying out if you are getting too cut up.
Eh, the tips of my thumbs are already a mass of scar tissue, so they don't have many problems.The rest of my twisted meat hooks are pretty fair targets
Brothers, I must admit I have been fortunate. Like the man who was injured boarding the plane to England before D-Day, I have avoided the worst of your travails.
My first experience with Restic was with the Privateers of the great Americas. My friends had told me the material was good, the plastics were as impressive as the great polymeromancer GW could produce. But I held them in my hands, brothers, and I felt a chill in my soul. Soft detail. Mould lines that stood out sharper than any facial feature. And when I tried to cut it, IT CUT BACK.
Still, I wallowed in ignorance, but my weakness as a modeller deterred me from purchasing any more. I felt the flaw to be within myself, that I couldn't manage the material.
Later, the Great Deceivers of Mantica lured me to purchase a box of their wares. Inside were some of their "sprueless plastic" miniatures. Bent weapons. Poor detail. Uncleanable flash. It was all there. And yet, I still did not learn.
I pledged on a Kickstarter. A restic Kickstarter. My first and only.
Red Box Games had sent me miniatures before, miniatures of spectacular quality. I thought "Well, what's the harm?"
I was lucky brothers. I recieved my pledge almost on time- perhaps a month late. I know others were no so lucky, and some languish in agony to this day. The miniatures, miraculously, and perhaps as a testament to the power of the Red Box, were good. Strong detail, clear molds. But at what cost? The weapons, truescaled, were brittle as the dead leaves of autumn. They crumbled in my clumsy hands. The delays, the endless delays. Even the power of the Red Box could not cleanse the evil of this wretched material. I realised then the common enemy that stalked all my brethren- this restic, this sprueless plastic, this trollforged material. The Beast has many names. He has many faces. He is Legion. But we know his spoor now. We have seen his sign. We are ready to face the truth of his manifold nature.
By x acto, by file and by hot water bath I abjure thee, Restic.
Edit: RiTides has pointed out to me that Trollforged is not, in fact, restic (which accounts for it's excellent ability to hold detail). Apologies to all involved- though I think this is yet more confirmation of the power of Restic to cloud the minds of the weak!
Wehrkind wrote: Eh, the tips of my thumbs are already a mass of scar tissue, so they don't have many problems.The rest of my twisted meat hooks are pretty fair targets
You are lucky... After one restic kickstarter, I wore through my entire left thumb due to horrible sanding and blade accidents. In order for me to continue to model and game I had to undergo a risky 'toe to thumb' transplant.
I only have one more replacement big toe so I can't risk my only good thumb on any more restic KS!
There is a darkness beneath darkness, my brothers, and yet that is brighter than the hell in which I dwell. I have sunk to my very core into the spongy, yielding depths of perversity. I speak of that most flaccid of depravities, The Bones, but also of something ...chunkier. A rigid vessel of catchpenny sin designed to allure the most vulnerable of innocents to the dark; I speak of Board Game Plastic.
Yea, it is right you avert your eyes and fork your fingers in the symbol of clippers, the Holy Instrument of the Sprue. It is rank hubris to do otherwise.
However, be warned! For once you have experienced the thrill of an entire box of miniatures at a price that would not buy a single Knave-o'-the-War from the Privateer of the Americas, you will never again spend the tithe for metal without a worm of doubt twisting in your blemished heart. There is also a spiritual danger to Board Game Plastic beyond anything in the realm of restic, a threat matched only by the cheapest of Bones panderers: gratification in the instant. Think on it! You open the packacging in a rush of emotion. No careful seduction this, but a brutal tearing of packaging, a yielding to the basest lusts in a modeller's heart. Then you have the minis prone before you, naked. At your tender mercies. And do you pause to reflect on your passions? Do you show reverence or even respect to your conquest? Do you show the courtesy of cleaning or provide the sensual caress of the blade and files? No. You give nothing but the spray...of primer and the squirt of paint. If even that much. Perhaps you simply use the piece as it is and throw it back into the darkness until you wish to use it again.
This moral decay is contagious. It is subtle. It is pervasive. Soon, you will find that you question why you should waste time cleaning any restic models. The time it takes to get even mediocre results could be spent better at the painting table or the gaming table. Why bother working so hard for your satisfaction when you can just take a miniature and plunk it down for your immediate pleasure? Why sweat and toil on a masterpiece when you can settle for okay? Soon, you will find that even resin and metal minis don't need to be 'perfect'.
And thus the rot has set in. Restic exposure has formed a bubble in your very soul. A malformed, spongy abscess on the psyche that can never be painted over. A neckbeard that no mere iron collar can contain.
Brothers, avoid the gateway to sloth, the pit of apathy. Avoid this otherworldly invasion that attacks and mars the mind. Do not be ground in the gears, warring for your dignity against a descent into the mansion-sized depths of madness. Be no epicurean who lives as if each were the last night on earth. Do not become another board gaming zombie.
But I urge you. Consider the cost of what you are about to embark on. You may remove that blemish which you set yourself upon... but at what cost? At what damage to your hobbying soul?
The privateer hard grey PVC has already blackened my soul. To the point that I think certain sculpts of white soft bones PVC are actually acceptable. My only warning to those who would consider Reaper's wares is that unless you see it in person, how will you know if the detail is there? For most of their figures, Reaper didn't sculpt them from scratch with extra deep details to make the best of the rubbery vinyl, but simply used sculpts meant for metal casting. What folly!
If bones are a shadow, hard grey PVC is a dark void. Spend sufficient time in the void and even a shadow will appear to be the light of the noon day sun!
How will we know you have fallen, dear brother, if your fingers are to be sacrificed? How will we know?
One of the few mercies of the softer bones PVC is that I never hold a sharpened blade when working on it. The material can be filed with good quality diamond files without marring up the surface like the hard grey excrement version of PVC.
You know, thinking about that, I wonder if one could use some manner of PVC cement on this still like one does with PVC piping. Granted, that isn't exactly a fun material, but now I am curious...
Welcome, Da Boss and BobtheInquisitor. I thank thee for sharing these tales of woe.
Lo, the serpent doth wear many disguises, I do not blame thee for thy confusion regarding the plastic of the troll's forge. For I, too, have stared into the void wondering from whence a substance comes. That is why we are here, brothers, we who together are stronger than any one could be alone.
Listen to the brother of the frozen wastes, my brethren, for his words are both wise and true.
Wehrkind wrote:You know, thinking about that, I wonder if one could use some manner of PVC cement on this still like one does with PVC piping. Granted, that isn't exactly a fun material, but now I am curious...
From what I've heard it does work, Perhaps you can get a tiny squeeze tube and not have to worry about the poison gas cloud that billows from the large bottles plumbers use?
but it's not as good for flat surface joints as the solvent does not soften/met things nearly as fast as plastic cement on polystyrene so it's hard to get it to grab
(says the man with 500ml of now pretty useless PVC cement cluttering up his cupboard)
Over the last decade tin prices have been very volatile. Consumption for tin has drastically increased and there are actually only a few high volume tin mines in the world. Tin makes up the majority of the alloys used in most metal miniatures. Often mixes that contain lead as the base will still have tin.
So what do you do if you produce metal miniatures as your primary source of revenue like Privateer Press? You start investigating alternatives. And if you are a producer of metal miniatures, you likely don't have the sales volumes required to go all the way to styrene.
So Privateer launches a few kits in the new material. And they actually offered a reasonable discount for the new material relative to a similar sized miniature. They found they could make this work. People bought it.
And they've been both expanding it ever since and decreasing the discount with every release. The upcoming cephalyx infantry are being released in PVC for the price per figure of some of their metal kits.
Mantic also started using the material. And has made a lot of kits for their Kickstarters with the stuff. And other Kickstarters have jumped on the bandwagon. Now to the point that when you see a Kickstarter, it's best to assume it will be the hated restic until they prove otherwise.
Now on the Reaper Bones side of things, it's origins are not actually in just finding a cheaper way to produce miniatures. That came only in the last few years.
The origins of Reaper Bones is in the success of Mage Knight prepainted miniatures and then D&D prepainted miniatures. The only thing people truly hated about D&D prepainted miniatures was that if you wanted to use them for an RPG session, it could be very difficult to get say... 8 orcs with spears that you might need.
So Reaper released Legendary Encounters prepainted miniatures. Rubbery miniatures covered in gloopy vinyl paint at a price per miniature meant to compete with random D&D miniatures. And to a degree, it worked. Though not enough for Reaper to produce more than 30 figures.
There have been people who repainted prepaints like D&D miniatures. It takes some serious solvent to remove the vinyl goop paint. Others just prime over the prepaint and hope for the best.
Then an interesting conversation at ReaperCon happened. It was proposed that Reaper sell some of their Legendary Encounters figures without the prepaint vinyl goop on them.
I'm guessing at this point Reaper employees tried painting them, tried converting them and generally worked with their prepaints-without-prepaint. And they figured the product could work.
So they released the first 16 miniatures of Bones to distributors, stores and through direct retail. And they quickly came to dominate Reaper's sales. 16 miniatures made up a third of their sales volume.
So the Kickstarter happened. And now the second one is in fulfillment.
Reaper Bones is best thought of as a descendant of prepainted miniatures rather than from the restic hard grey PVC branch of the vinyl family tree.
The soft rubbery white bones material has it's own limitations:
1) Detail isn't as good. So you need sculpts that have deeper details that work with the material better. 2) Bendy. While most of the paints we use these days are flexible acrylics, There are still primers and varnishes that are a bit more rigid. And people get a toy like impression when a miniature they expect to be solid suddenly moves or bends. 3) Heat twisted parts. Like the grey hard PVC, you can still get bad twisted parts that need to be fixed with boiling water. So perhaps there's an opportunity to scald one's fingers here. I use chop sticks or tongs, but for those wishing for an excuse to plunge their hands into scalding water, this is the opportunity you have been waiting for. 4) Pre-assembly. Bones is meant to be a 'ready to go' product, so for everything but their largest kits already comes assembled. It can be annoying to paint behind a cape when the cape is already attached. And some times the parts were not pushed in as far as they could have been. And they use some sort of cement that really fuses things because pulling them apart tends to result in a tear in the miniature before the glue joint lets go. Basically you end up with some needless putty work on some of the figures where they just didn't push the parts together hard enough when assembling them for you. 5) The figures are light. It's even easier to knock them around with a shirt sleeve than metal miniatures. I've taken to weighting bases and mounting larger figures on clay poker chips or metal washers to help with the problem. 6) Mould lines can't be scraped. So you need to either slice them off or use a high quality abrasive. I use a 2x100 file. Others use rotorary tool polishing stones. Others use filing needles. Others make sanding sticks out of automotive sandpaper.
Privateer is pushing their PVC prices up to where their metal prices were. Just like GW has done with their styrene sprues. Hopefully Reaper does not have a plan to do likewise as the figures literally are prepaints without the prepaint and simply are not the equals of their metals.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: No careful seduction this, but a brutal tearing of packaging, a yielding to the basest lusts in a modeller's heart. Then you have the minis prone before you, naked. At your tender mercies. And do you pause to reflect on your passions? Do you show reverence or even respect to your conquest? Do you show the courtesy of cleaning or provide the sensual caress of the blade and files? No. You give nothing but the spray...of primer and the squirt of paint. If even that much. Perhaps you simply use the piece as it is and throw it back into the darkness until you wish to use it again.
Lord Inquisitor Bob, please no more. Is this a test? Do you seek to tempt us?
Already I am plagued by incessant visions and floundering rationalizations. Imagining the silken caress of fine resin where only plastic asphalt awaits does all of us disservice. The price might seem low but the cost is high! The crux of our dilemma, of my dilemma!
Be not deceived by Drakerys and their charms like the Confrontation of yore. Like a bewitching siren they call, luring you to certain damnation and despair. Steel your hearts and recite the oath!
A kickstarter gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until campaign end. I am the sword of truth in the comments. I am the watcher for the updates. I am the shield that guards the wallets of Dakka. I pledge my life and honor to the Restic Knights, for this project and all the and all the projects to come.
I had that exact experience with my Cryx stuff. And it wasn't just mould lines, but these uneven swirl formations on the larger flat surfaces. Like the PVC didn't cool evenly there. I ended up having to sand them smooth after the primer was dry, remove the mould lines as best I could and put another light coat of primer down.
And the stupid thing still has a big blemish facing right up at my opponent because they put the stupid gate for the casting on the top of the cowl on the front. This isn't a picture of mine, but from a person who didn't even bother trying to fix it:
And another
Sprueless plastic. Where we mangle your models by tearing the gates off so you don't have to!
Yea brothers and sisters, I have had a a revelation!
No, I do not test your modeller's patience by debating how many bits can be glued to the head of a pin. This is a personal story of my salvation, forged in dream and possibly the fumes of a most potent solvent.
And it came to pass last night that I dreamt of ten sickly Men at Arms devoured by 10 hale Paladins, and I was but a blind man before a stumbling block. Ronniel, the Promiser, dreaded King of War who tempts men with the lure of bigger armies, brought me to the top of the world and pointed to all four corners of the FLGS, and I saw that they were filled with teeming numbers beyond counting, restic all. Legion they were, all manner of creatures to walk upon the earth or to crawl upon their bellies because their hind legs were too slight to maintain their bipedal posture. "All this could be yours," he whispered, "If you would but turn away from the One True Polymer."
And it came to pass that I recalled the Betrayer, Tony the Ready, who sold out his friends and financial savior for thirty pieces of American silver (or approximately eighteen pounds plus exchange fees). And I saw that his works had turned to a fart in the wind. And his heart had curdled with defiance, but seriously the stench was terrible. And he piled upon the Chinese the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and if his chest had been a mortar, he would burst his hot heart’s shell upon it. But really, something smells suspiciously like bad Thai food.
And it came to pass that I took the path less travelled by, and that has made all the difference.
And it came to pass that the dream shifted location and I was not the only person in the car wash to revel in nakedness. But that was another story. Moving on...
And it came to pass that I beheld the tablets of steel, and the scales fell from my eyes and I could see again. For I saw the tablets were engraved into a mould, and in the mould I saw the shapes of great rectangular wheels with spokes of a design beyond my comprehension. And I saw upon the spokes four heads in accordance with the cardinal constellations of the Wargaming Heavens: the gas-masked sci-fi Stormtrooper; the screaming man with the Peaked Cap of Authoriteh; the more or less bare head of the Conscript; and the bionic eye of the Grimdark Screaming Bionic Eye Man head. And I saw that each had six accessories: two alternative arms or hand to hold up the righteously awesome blasters; two sets of pouches to cover the body and a holster paired with a medikit to cover their legs. And I saw many, many more accessories, enough to keep a modeller in a well-ventilated area for 40 days and 40 nights. And some four-legged chariots of iron to carry the ammo or something. For veritas.
And it came to pass that I knew a freakin' sweet deal when I saw one. Now, I am a believer. Not a trace of doubt in my mind. I couldn't leave styrene if I tried.
So, I have come to testify!
All praise be to the modeller's tetragrammaton: H-I-P-S.
There is no Plastic but HIPS, and WGF is its prophet.
Hear, O Dakka, Plastic is Great! Plastic is High-Impact PolyStyrene!
This is the internet, so I have to ask if you're being sarcastic, like my parents when they said I was born to be a surgeon, or if this is praise. I'm not good at recognizing praise. I paint spaceships.
All praise be to the modeller's tetragrammaton: H-I-P-S.
There is no Plastic but HIPS, and WGF is its prophet.
Hear, O Dakka, Plastic is Great! Plastic is High-Impact PolyStyrene!
Gloria in excelsis polymer!
You'll have become HIPSters!
I will not stop playing Gachapon, i need my PVC Hello Kitty Heads!
All must bow to The Japanese superior PVC figurines, but i will not lower myself to using the western infidel's PVC creations.
I stand for resin. Through its magic the darkest corner of my basement yields wonderful miniatures, crisp in detail and easily cleaned. It is an ancient, well understood arcana, serving to make fine models where metal and beloved HIPs ask too much of us.
And one of these years when I have more money than sense again, I am going to make spin casting work with it, goddamn it. There shouldn't be a good reason to use a pressure chamber instead of spining the bastards at 3000rpm or whatever.
Greetings brothers, I, MoO of England seek entrance to your hallowed halls.
My first encounter with this demon material came with my purchase of a pair of Cryx Bonejacks, my very first. At this time i was a mere innocent to this dread material, having only worked with plastic and metal. Oh how I was to be tortured. How my innocence was to be lost and my virgin hands mutilated. If i had but known then I would have placed that box of accursed figures back on the shelf and left them for some other poor soul to suffer.
But alas, i did not. In my innocence I presumed that these where true plastic and would be easy to work. Indeed I had never even heard of this Restic by this point. Oh how i was to be deceived. How I was to fall. When I first got working on these figures i was surprised by the seemingly soft detail and the odd quality of the plastic. I presumed that this was just a new type though, and so I set out to tackle these kits, scalpel boldly held in my hands. In that confrontation I would first learn the true properties of this devilish substance, though as I plunged my knife in and attempted to cut away the flash the restic fought back. Crying in anger I drew my file to, and with both weapons wielded i laid into the monstrous substance, slashing and cutting for all my worth. But alas it was to no avail and no matter how hard I fought the restic device countered and riposted my every move. Beaten I fell back, my hands bleeding and sore from thousands of cuts, cause by that demons foul trickery and its strange power of turning my own blade on me.
However I was not to be beaten. The next morn I arose and once more sallied forth. This time I had learned from my previous encounter and so rather than attempting a shallow to remove just the line, I cut deep into the substance, cleaving it deep. And i thought myself victorious, but in secret the restic still had won. For as I looked upon my models I saw that in my victory I had carved great chunks of detail from them, detail that was to be rebuilt with the sacred Greenstuff. The Restic was to fight once more, for as assembly finally came about I was to learn the true nature. For Plastic glue, that holy substance with which countless models have been assembled was to prove incapable of aiding in the conquering of this fell foe. Although I had vixctory the models still proved capable of collapsing and losing bits at the very worst of moments.
And so brothers, I have laid bare my tail of woe. May I now be accepted into your holy order?
master of ordinance wrote: *snip*
And so brothers, I have laid bare my tail of woe. May I now be accepted into your holy order?
You need not beg acceptance, brother. You have been of our kind since your fateful purchase many moons ago. We do not grant status or make members. We only seek to congregate and recognize our ilk, to allow them to crawl from beneath their hobby desks, to enter the light of acceptance.
This is the internet, so I have to ask if you're being sarcastic, like my parents when they said I was born to be a surgeon, or if this is praise. I'm not good at recognizing praise. I paint spaceships.
master of ordinance wrote: *snip*
And so brothers, I have laid bare my tail of woe. May I now be accepted into your holy order?
You need not beg acceptance, brother. You have been of our kind since your fateful purchase many moons ago. We do not grant status or make members. We only seek to congregate and recognize our ilk, to allow them to crawl from beneath their hobby desks, to enter the light of acceptance.
Well said, brother gunslingerpro. We welcome you, master of ordinance, thank you for sharing your story.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I will not stop playing Gachapon, i need my PVC Hello Kitty Heads!
All must bow to The Japanese superior PVC figurines, but i will not lower myself to using the western infidel's PVC creations.
Jehan-reznor, I cannot speak to our nemesis' eastern cousin, but tread carefully! Thy passion for those kitties of greeting may yet lead to darker introductions.
Ahhh....I most humbly beg your pardon. I suffer from a recently diagnosed ailment called RTSD. It is akin to the malady afflicting many of our fine service men and women after they return from combat. I too have been waging a battle, though not in the theater of war, but on my work table. My desire is to find solace and peace in the hobby I love, but low! I find nothing of the sort.
Approaching the bench I feel the bile rise into my mouth. A cold sweat breaks out on my brow. The world spins, I clutch the table for support.....
MENOTH WARJACK!!!!
Ohhhh......Again I am most sorry. The only relief I find is at at my local hobby shop in perusing the plastic finery, fondly recalling the melodic sounds of a spru cutter snipping. The gentle removal of flash. Searching in vain for mold lines, and finding none. As I turn the corner into another aisle my heart quickens, for before me is the x-acto section. Numbly I look down at my left hand and see the blood seeping from hundreds of tiny cuts. No amount of bandaging will stem the flow of my life from those wounds. I feel light headed.....
RELIC KNIGHTS!!!!!!
Gods help me.....I hold now the only thing that helps me get through a modeling section. The ponderous weight of real spuncast resin. The smooth texture, the weight, the detail.
Friends, please, I beg you, allow not your fellows to fall into the debilitating trap I am stuck in now. There is little precious relief.
Ahhh....I most humbly beg your pardon. I suffer from a recently diagnosed ailment called RTSD. It is akin to the malady afflicting many of our fine service men and women after they return from combat. I too have been waging a battle, though not in the theater of war, but on my work table. My desire is to find solace and peace in the hobby I love, but low! I find nothing of the sort.
Approaching the bench I feel the bile rise into my mouth. A cold sweat breaks out on my brow. The world spins, I clutch the table for support.....
MENOTH WARJACK!!!!
Ohhhh......Again I am most sorry. The only relief I find is at at my local hobby shop in perusing the plastic finery, fondly recalling the melodic sounds of a spru cutter snipping. The gentle removal of flash. Searching in vain for mold lines, and finding none. As I turn the corner into another aisle my heart quickens, for before me is the x-acto section. Numbly I look down at my left hand and see the blood seeping from hundreds of tiny cuts. No amount of bandaging will stem the flow of my life from those wounds. I feel light headed.....
RELIC KNIGHTS!!!!!!
Gods help me.....I hold now the only thing that helps me get through a modeling section. The ponderous weight of real spuncast resin. The smooth texture, the weight, the detail.
Friends, please, I beg you, allow not your fellows to fall into the debilitating trap I am stuck in now. There is little precious relief.
Easy brother. Easy. May I recommend a course of Metal? Perhaps an injection of plastic? Perhaps, some gentle worship at the alter of resin? You need to sooth your troubled soul with more pure worship lest you be lost to us for good.
The inability of plastic glue to bond accursed restic is well documented in the many texts of the interwebs.
As I honed my hobbying craft from the AGE OF LEAD, I feel many hobbyists have been spoiled by working with HIPS. The ancient arts of cutting and joining are lost to the masses or decried as no longer relevant as the AGE OF PLASTIC took hold. The arts of converting metal figures and sculpting details have largely been banished into the hinterlands of our lands - and those who still practice these arts with mastery are simultaneously revered and ridiculed as craftsmen to be emulated, or cellar dwelling madmen.
Ah... but here's the crux of this tale - it is those same skills of yesteryear that are the best tools to deal with this accursed restic. Having to remove mold slippage from a restic model is no more difficult than performing repair to a model cast from primeval pewter. In the days of old, we did not have the great library of INTERNETS to refer to for hobbying advice - use this great resource brothers and learn from our battle scarred brethen. The tools may be different, and the technique may differ slightly, but the overall methods are the same.
We are upon a new age. The restic hordes are here to stay. With some sweat from your brow, more times than not (edit) when working with models designed to be cast in this medium (/edit), that accursed restic can be made to yield. (In the Privateer Theatre... components that are found to be unsalvagable can be exchanged by sending a message to their Temple of Frontdesk)
keezus wrote: The inability of plastic glue to bond accursed restic is well documented in the many texts of the interwebs.
As I honed my hobbying craft from the AGE OF LEAD, I feel many hobbyists have been spoiled by working with HIPS. The ancient arts of cutting and joining are lost to the masses or decried as no longer relevant as the AGE OF PLASTIC took hold. The arts of converting metal figures and sculpting details have largely been banished into the hinterlands of our lands - and those who still practice these arts with mastery are simultaneously revered and ridiculed as craftsmen to be emulated, or cellar dwelling madmen.
Ah... but here's the crux of this tale - it is those same skills of yesteryear that are the best tools to deal with this accursed restic. Having to remove mold slippage from a restic model is no more difficult than performing repair to a model cast from primeval pewter. In the days of old, we did not have the great library of INTERNETS to refer to for hobbying advice - use this great resource brothers and learn from our battle scarred brethen. The tools may be different, and the technique may differ slightly, but the overall methods are the same.
We are upon a new age. The restic hordes are here to stay. With some sweat from your brow, more times than not (edit) when working with models designed to be cast in this medium (/edit), that accursed restic can be made to yield. (In the Privateer Theatre... components that are found to be unsalvagable can be exchanged by sending a message to their Temple of Frontdesk)
Then maybe there is hope brother, maybe we can one day conquer this foul foe that threatens our fingers.
I hope so soon, for the sake of the hands of all.
Hope... tis a foolish hope, brothers. A wise man once said:
Bruce Wayne: Why didn't you just... kill me?
Bane: You don't fear death... You welcome it. Your punishment must be more severe.
Bruce Wayne: Torture?
Bane: Yes. But not of your body... Of your soul.
Bruce Wayne: Where am I?
Bane: Home, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying.I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize Gotham, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls.
I think a better reading would be that restic will always be a torturous experience for you due in part to the hopes sold by the purveyors. That is, unless you are the goddamned Batman.
Wehrkind wrote: I think a better reading would be that restic will always be a torturous experience for you due in part to the hopes sold by the purveyors. That is, unless you are the goddamned Batman.
JudgeShamgar wrote: Numbly I look down at my left hand and see the blood seeping from hundreds of tiny cuts. No amount of bandaging will stem the flow of my life from those wounds.
The... The STIGMATA! You have truly been blessed (cursed)!
Yours is a soul in need of purification. I know of only one way to save thee. Do you happen to be near a large herd of swine and a lake?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Remember brothers the Plastic Rule of Master Hillel: "That which you find hateful upon thine workbench do not sell unto others. All the rest is profanity. Now go paint something."
For further exploration, may I suggest Moses Maimedextremites' Guide for the Apoplexed.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I will not stop playing Gachapon, i need my PVC Hello Kitty Heads!
All must bow to The Japanese superior PVC figurines, but i will not lower myself to using the western infidel's PVC creations.
Jehan-reznor, I cannot speak to our nemesis' eastern cousin, but tread carefully! Thy passion for those kitties of greeting may yet lead to darker introductions.
This eastern heaven shows how the dreaded Restic can be used in a "positive?" way to ensnare "the eternal locked in puberty male", I grieve for my Western com-padres that have encountered this inferior PVC that is called restic. May the Anime PVC goddesses shine on you, my betrayed brothers.
I think the difference is that the anime kits are made to be stand alone and not need hobbying to finish them off. So the makers of those kits really pay attention to the tooling process and make sure mould lines are as minimal as possible. If you're going to make a PVC anime kit, imagine going into the board room to show off your wares and you have twisted sections and visible mould lines.
I've seen some anime kits and they're not the same mix as the hard grey PVC that mantic and privateer use. Just as reaper bones is a different PVC mixture, so are the Japanese figures.
Hello, my name is Aegis, and I am an ashamed owner of a still-unassembled copy of Sedition Wars.
What's worse, I was an original backer of the kickstarter, so I also own two different incarnations of horrible rules to use all that restic with, if I can ever muster the mental fortitude to spend all the hours required to get even the basic set of figures assembled- not to mention all the surplus figures from the biohazard level pledge!
Luckily I was able to resist the forbidden fruit that is Deadzone, though I may have to take the plunge with Forgefathers so I can have my 2nd edition 40K Squat force. Necessary evils must sometimes be faced!
AlexHolker wrote: Do the Japanese PVC kits work for more detailed art styles, or is it just that the bland manga sculpts hide the weakness of the material?
You think the details of that angel's dress is bland?
Or that this figures hair is just hiding heat twisting behind a bland sculpt somehow?
I highly recommend this article on the massproducing vinyl kits.
It's for a doll, but the technique used has been widely used for figure kits as well... Not viable for small scale stuff but interesting nontheless.
AlexHolker wrote:Do the Japanese PVC kits work for more detailed art styles, or is it just that the bland manga sculpts hide the weakness of the material?
Here is a 1/400 Gundam, made of PVC and about the size of a GW Terminator.
I think at this point we can see the weakness of lumping all types of PVC together. Bones are prepainted plastics without the prepaint which vary in quality by sculpt. Japanese figures are another process that is designed for the end purchaser to buy in a finished state. Hard grey "restic" or "sprueless plastic" or whatever is the excrement that is our true foe.
While there are some Reaper Bones kickstarter backers that lament the shallowness of the detail on sculpts unsuitable to the material, it's the Sedition wars, Mantic, Privateer and the like hard grey PVC that is the true source of our sorrow.
AlexHolker wrote: Do the Japanese PVC kits work for more detailed art styles, or is it just that the bland manga sculpts hide the weakness of the material?
It ranges from cheap gachapon figures
Spoiler:
to expensive big figurines
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I always chuckle at GW's claim that they are the best in the business, when i see what get's released in Asia, from garagekits, miniatures, model kits etcetera
when they can't even do this ;
or this
frozenwastes wrote: I think at this point we can see the weakness of lumping all types of PVC together. Bones are prepainted plastics without the prepaint which vary in quality by sculpt. Japanese figures are another process that is designed for the end purchaser to buy in a finished state. Hard grey "restic" or "sprueless plastic" or whatever is the excrement that is our true foe.
While there are some Reaper Bones kickstarter backers that lament the shallowness of the detail on sculpts unsuitable to the material, it's the Sedition wars, Mantic, Privateer and the like hard grey PVC that is the true source of our sorrow.
EXACTLY!
These companies need to have a few Kickstarter flops in a row in order to learn their lesson...
frozenwastes wrote: I think at this point we can see the weakness of lumping all types of PVC together. Bones are prepainted plastics without the prepaint which vary in quality by sculpt. Japanese figures are another process that is designed for the end purchaser to buy in a finished state. Hard grey "restic" or "sprueless plastic" or whatever is the excrement that is our true foe.
While there are some Reaper Bones kickstarter backers that lament the shallowness of the detail on sculpts unsuitable to the material, it's the Sedition wars, Mantic, Privateer and the like hard grey PVC that is the true source of our sorrow.
EXACTLY!
These companies need to have a few Kickstarter flops in a row in order to learn their lesson...
Here is both the blessing and the curse of "restic" type PVC. Kickstarter has made the wholesale flooding of the stuff almost a plague. People see they can get 3 or 4 armies worth of models for the price of a Landraider, for instance. The volume of models is just huge. Then when these things finally arrive you look at them in shock and loathing. Into a drawer they go, not even good enough to sell or give away.
Alph, you are so right. Companies would think twice if there were a massive backer azazelx movement, and the project just fell apart.
I can't stop seeing "Azazelx" and "The Prince Who Was Promised" in the same sentence image in my head..........clearly there has been some lasting damage from this restic experience.
Sinful Hero wrote:Okay, so we're cool with Anime PVC figures and Bones right?(phew! Dodged two bullets there)
Our order of knights does not require the universal hatred of all PVC, but some among us still hate Bones & anime figures equally alongside the grey abomination. Whether it is they who are unfairly lumping these different types of figures together unfairly, or if it is that people like myself who have been tempted by perfidy through bones or anime pvc will likely be an ongoing doctrinal debate
Bones: I'll buy them on a case by case basis. And generally only in person at a local store when I get into town. Anime Figure PVC: I have a few friends that are really into anime and I've got them figures in the past as presents and will do so again in the future. Grey Abomination: I will never buy this again. Nor pledge for a Kickstarter that doesn't explicitly state it's materials on the off hand chance that it ends up being this stuff. I will spend money on polythene toy soldiers before I get more hard grey PVC.
Alpharius wrote:These companies need to have a few Kickstarter flops in a row in order to learn their lesson...
Definitely.
H.B.M.C. wrote:There are very few things I can say I regret. Sedition Wars and Deadzone are two of them.
Sedition Wars had such potential. I am so glad it ended up on my "pick up at retail if everyone loves it" list. Deadzone happend just after I started a large historicals project, otherwise that one would have got me for sure.
JudgeShamgar wrote:Here is both the blessing and the curse of "restic" type PVC. Kickstarter has made the wholesale flooding of the stuff almost a plague. People see they can get 3 or 4 armies worth of models for the price of a Landraider, for instance. The volume of models is just huge. Then when these things finally arrive you look at them in shock and loathing. Into a drawer they go, not even good enough to sell or give away.
People like Perry, Victrix, Warlord, Gripping Beast, Fireforge and others are showing you can produce hard styrene figures for really cheap. Like 75 cents to a dollar per miniature.
Quantity is no excuse! Brothers, sisters! Do not fall for it!
Alph, you are so right. Companies would think twice if there were a massive backer azazelx movement, and the project just fell apart.
There are many blades in this world, some better than others, but none is greater than the hand that wields it. Perusing the neverending Scrolls of Google, unpainted raw examples of those figures are not readily available. There were some but of a larger scale than what we're generally used to, I believe. I won't decry the material used or form taken. However, it might not be the most precise comparison.
A small search for "japanese pvc miniatures" didn't lead me to anything worth comparing. My unfamiliarity with Japanese figures makes it difficult to discern their size; there were many smooth surfaces that looked very satisfying to paint, though.
No matter. This does not alter our course: safeguarding the innocent from restic monsters.
The miniatures in Sedition Wars is an ongoing lamentation for me. Evidently I chose to graduate from restic squire to restic knight in one fell, misguided swoop.
At least with Deadzone, one only needs to clean and prep a squad-sized force.
@Wehrkind: Yeah it's too good not to share Very interesting for fans of the old vinyl kits. If you ever get round to fooling around with that stuff, it would be greatly appreciated if could follow your endeavours
Was that for the kits or the already painted version?
This comment is strictly for vinyl kits (pvc) produced according to the methods explained in the article by Danny Choo.
PVC figure collectibles (readypainted) that are not produced in this matter, consist of solid parts more often than not and are usually cast in more traditional molds and thus still have moldlines. They just hold a much higher quality overall and I think that also comes down to QC more than anything.
I will share some pictures for those that are not familiar with this type of kit so you can get a better idea of what I am talking about. Sorry about the upside down Predator photos, didn't realise how I was holding the phone
Spoiler:
With vinyl kits you have to deal with large pieces of excess flash from where the vinyl comes into the mold. You will need a hair dryer handy for trimming and adjusting pieces that might be a tad warped.
Generally the parts have a "memory" from when the plastic went solid (as the molecular bonds were formed) and if you heat it gently it will find it's original form. A little help doesn't hurt though.
Other problems that can arise depend on the specific material - as some kits are softer and will sag in a warm climate unless you reinforce them.
This is a closeup of Horizon's Hulk in 1/6 scale. It's just six parts and doesn't have the same amount of detail overall, but it's got details where it matters.
And here you can see it in "raw form" with the flash trimmed (the stuff that looks like calamari rings at the top of the photo)
This is ArgoNauts Predator 2 vinyl kit in 1/6 scale. I find that the Japanese kits have a higher part count than contemporary western produced kits. Granted the Predator has a lot of details and complex undercuts so it has more parts than a figure kit in general.
I have that Predator. It's amazing. I painted it so long ago I actually forgot it was vinyl, but it is.
Here are some pictures of a 7 inch tall vinyl godzilla kit:
The vinyl of these kits is definitley more pliable than the hard grey PVC, but at the same time the actual surface is tougher and harder to mar or scratch. I would love miniatures made of this material and off the quality of the godzilla above.
Brothers, I will say this- we already know PVC works fine for larger miniatures, such as those shown above. Does this alter the horror we have witnessed with human sized 28mm models? I say no.
We've always been hoping the next campaign will be better... it's time to no longer hope (and risk money) on what had been proven over and over again not to be suitable for consistent, high quality 28mm models.
Even now, the brothers receiving "relic knights" try to talk themselves into believing: "It has some detail, and with some work I can maybe remove that nasty mold line". No, brothers! We have come too far to backslide now.
For me, PVC on 28mm scale is like electric cars. I think it may be great in the future, when more things have been worked out, and I can see it pushing the industry forward, but it's just not to the point of replacing more traditional methods.
Quite possibly Alph. I am interested to get my Relic Knights now that some people have reported decent results. Not entirely optimistic, but at least not dreading it. Of course I haven't gotten any notifications yet, but FedEx/USPS are super fast around here, so I will probably get the boxes a few days before notification...
SPM's pictures have shown some terrible miscasts/loss of detail. User pictures have so far shown at least a "decent" quality. I'll know for certain myself on Monday.
Ok, bringing this over from the Fallen Frontiers thread, since Cyp thought the same thing I did but got promptly shouted down.
This picture "resin" model does not look right.
First off, look at the range of shadows on it. Particularly, compare the arms to the exposed chest under the chin in the middle photo. See the color difference, and note the plasticy, bright highlights off the center of the pectoral area visible and how the arms themselves have zero shininess like that, but rather a smooth transition from the highest point of color to the darkest shadows under the muscles. That's... odd. If miniatures at this scale generated shadows like that arm we wouldn't have to highlight and shade them, but rather just paint them a flat color and be done. Instead there is a nice, smooth matte surface with shadows on the arm, and the normal bright, shiney plasticy look in the chest we expect.
Similarly, look at the shoulder plates. That is painted. Resin doesn't look like that (neither does HIPS, PVC or any other plastic right out of the mold.) Note the muzzle of the gun too, same issue. Or the pouches and holster on his hips; that piping around the edges is REALLY popping, isn't it? Almost like they painted it.
Note the backdrop too; by his feet there is some lint on the black. Where is it on the rest of the back drop? Now, photoshopping a back drop a bit is hardly a crime, but it does suggest that some work has been done to the picture.
Now, I am not saying the model isn't resin; it could be anything (the chest area reminds me of PP style PRV instead of the resin you usually see, however, which comes out with a more matte finish unless you pull it early and it air cures). What it is is painted/photoshopped. My guess is that they took an airbrush and did a quick zenithal highlight of the model with a grey/white paint before taking the pictures. Maybe threw on a light wash, though the absence of paint one the chest there suggests not.
So, just saying. They are not telling you everything about that model.
Some of the sedition wars minis came out nice all thing considered, such as the Samaritan.
The biggest problem is working with the material.
Unless you can create a miniature with mold free lines than I'm not entirely interested, or if there is some new magical formula that makes cleaning up equivalent to metal or HIPs.
I could see even using restic for certain terrain bits where metal would just bend and hips would just snap.
It's got it's place, but should not dominate the market and be the go to choice of material.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They were metal and some in resin.
Alph: Actually, I am pretty certain that is PVC like PP's models. The chest is far too glossy for most resins I have seen; like I said, usually they cure to a matte finish unless pulled from the mold less than fully cured on the outside, which in my experience happens only when the silicon mold is <100% cured and the alcohol from the mold hardener inhibits the cure on the resin model.
Cyp: I make no warranties or assurances regarding your sanity, but your eye for pictures of miniatures works fine so far as I can tell
Wehrkind- I've gotten glossy resin before- from you even! They were in a rush for this so maybe it wasn't cured fully, and likely they washed it or photoshopped it to highlight detail, but I'd bet quite a bit that that is resin, as they say. Any other explanation is too elaborate, imo- they do in-house resin casting, not PVC, and that's the fastest way for them to show a sample. Just photoshopping or washing it doesn't make it PVC when all other data indicates otherwise. Once you accept the image was doctored slightly, or the model washed, that's as far as you can go, imo.
I know you have RITides, but that's because it was an early pull like I said
It is entirely possible that it is proper resin with air brushing. My eye tells me it isn't though. I have seen a mess of air cured resin models, and the light doesn't play off them like that. Maybe the air brushed paint is screwing me up, but I would give 3:2 odds that is a PVC model. The parts that are bare plastic remind me way too much of PP's models, but then maybe it is more of a Trollcast style resin? That looked kind of odd to me too when you brought yours by.
All the models from the RK Kickstarter are PVC. They previously released models in "real resin". The PVC models are from the same factory that has produced a lot of poor Kickstarter models for various projects, and also PP's models, if I remember correctly.
This is all just to make sure we're informed and to openly discuss what has been some lackluster results from many projects in the material. People keep believing the next one will be different... and keep ending up disappointed. Better to be critical upfront than to have unrealistically high expectations and be upset by the results. Better also for companies to be upfront about quality, and not pretend this material will come close to the results resin yields.
I also updated the title to be clearer as to what this thread is about. Open communication is the best way for us to help one another avoid future PVC mismarketing and customer disappointment.
RiTides wrote: All the models from the RK Kickstarter are PVC. They previously released models in "real resin". The PVC models are from the same factory that has produced a lot of poor Kickstarter models for various projects, and also PP's models, if I remember correctly.
This is all just to make sure we're informed and to openly discuss what has been some lackluster results from many projects in the material. People keep believing the next one will be different... and keep ending up disappointed. Better to be critical upfront than to have unrealistically high expectations and be upset by the results. Better also for companies to be upfront about quality, and not pretend this material will come close to the results resin yields.
I also updated the title to be clearer as to what this thread is about. Open communication is the best way for us to help one another avoid future PVC mismarketing and customer disappointment.
Slides a keg of ale across the bartop to brother RiTides. A toast to such a dire reality might seem gloomy, but alas the dragon must be drawn out of it's cave before it can be slain! Well said brother.
My Sedition Wars minis didn'thave aby sort of problems with detail. That was all great, some easily as good as some of my favorite metal models.
It's the cleanup involved. If 40k made models in restic, a ten-man Space Marine squad would take about two hours just to clean the mold lines from. And thats just for inorganic shapes. Models like the Strain figures are a frigging nightmare, with their organic curves to have to dig down into.
Then of course you have all the parts of models that are marred by having them twisted off the sprues at the factory. I love it when models come pre-damaged.....
Someone please transport me back to the days of pewter miniatures being awesome.
Do any of the PVC casters talk about the reasons they have decided to use this material over the others?
Cheap....as....all...hell for the company to produce and then mark up?
RiTides wrote: Brothers, I will say this- we already know PVC works fine for larger miniatures, such as those shown above. Does this alter the horror we have witnessed with human sized 28mm models? I say no.
We've always been hoping the next campaign will be better... it's time to no longer hope (and risk money) on what had been proven over and over again not to be suitable for consistent, high quality 28mm models.
Even now, the brothers receiving "relic knights" try to talk themselves into believing: "It has some detail, and with some work I can maybe remove that nasty mold line". No, brothers! We have come too far to backslide now.
I completely agree. I don't know if the process used for larger vinyl kits makes sense for 28mm miniatures and whatever the process is, the material of these larger good kits and the prepainted anime figures is substantially different than the currently available hard grey PVC 28mm miniatures.
If a company releases some figure or runs a Kickstarter that uses the vinyl process of larger kits and successfully applies them to 28mm, we're still at a point of needing to wait and see. The current trend of bad PVC 28mm miniatures is just more of the same crap.
Do any of the PVC casters talk about the reasons they have decided to use this material over the others?
Dollars.
Simple as that. It comes down to dollars.
The game designers in the instances of all of the KSes using PVC have chosen the cheapest form of the PVC. There are other forms (which are harder and hold detail better, but also require better care in designing their moulds) that are available; they've simply not been chosen yet.
In the process for Arcadia quest, 4 different PVCs were tested before the final material was chosen.
We'll see if it helps for things like Arcadia Quest- but at this point, companies need to prove they can get good results from the medium... as up to this point, such faith has not been rewarded.
Granted, chibi board game miniatures are the best application of it, imo... and even if those look good, it doesn't mean much for broader wargaming use. Wrath of Kings could be very revealing... but we'll see.
You mean Wrath of Kings has the potential to be Wrath of ugly Ducklings? If so I want some kinky fat ladies so I can paint their pasties in the official Restic Knights banner colour of bandaid.
basement.dweller wrote: You mean Wrath of Kings has the potential to be Wrath of ugly Ducklings? If so I want some kinky fat ladies so I can paint their pasties in the official Restic Knights banner colour of bandaid.
I'm pretty confident Wrath of Kings is going to be far and away the best example of the material we've seen because the proper money has been spent to do it correctly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if it comes to it, I'm prepared to eat crow, too
I am all for it if it's good - I was amongst the people that kept screaming about more information on the material when they were kickstarting and all we got was videos of people holding the models and saying "yeah they are nice" after being asked the very neutral question "they are great aren't they?" So I took my Restic Knight stance before I knew it was a thing and vowed to never pledge on restic unseen.
I sulked quite a bit and was very close to succumbing to the shinies... but I didn't. Waiting on the verdict
.
First came Sedition Wars. And I was taken in heavily. And while I do love some of the models and the Samaritans clean well, the organics, as mentioned are the stuff of nightmares. This doesn't include the dreaded second character wave.
After the Sedition Wars my ardor for Kickstarter waned. I admit then to seeing Wrath of Kings. The models, seemingly so beautiful, called to me. The initial campaign and 2 survey's openings later stands me heavily invested in this. Partially on Cincy's word. Partially on product shown. My hopes of restic ride on this.
That said, I initially went in rather heavy on Deadzone. But common sense reached out her hand and cradled me to her chest. I only went in for hard plastic scenery. Upon seeing the castings people received there was much rejoicing. My terrain is fabulous and there are no mold lines for me to clean. I cry out and bow my head to the hand of common sense for she saved me this day.
I have learned the hard way of the evils of restic. My last hope lies with Wrath of Kings. And even then I shall avoid in the future purchasing Restic from any other manufacturer should WoK answer my dreams. From this day forth the only answer is HIPS.
For this Games Workshop, Dream Forge, Kingdom Death, and Tablescape have my support.
My friends, I name is Gymnogyps and I am a Restic Knight.
I was a sucker. I had purchased many beautiful McVey resins, and seeing his name, I went in big for Sedition Wars.
The wall of shame in the back corner of my basement is full of his work.
Wave one was killed for me by the amount of work needed to get the minis tabletop appropriate, combined with incomprehensible rules.
I'd have worked through it, but my heart broke with my fanservice minis. I was a sucker for the BSG and Serenity models, and the shrinkage/complete lack of viability of these fine, truescale minis shattered me. The problem being, I bought based on the McVey name and did not get the implied quality.
Restic is not suitable to current, conventional methods. Do I think it can work, eventually? Yes. But it appears it requires a non-linear adjustment formula, i.e. skinny stuff shrinks more than thick stuff, so molds must compensate.
Its gonna be hard. Is it doable? Yes, but it needs to be reduced to a pre-programmed ratio formula for the cmms to sculpt the molds. Not necessarily easy to do. They'd have to figure out the shrinkage rate per surface area/volume. Yeah. That's gonna require resources to figure out, not cutrate kickstarters.
I have not backed a Restic mini kickstarter since, and will not back any until they figure out what the feth they are doing. I'm not willing to finance R&D via kickstarter, where there is zero accountability for rewards that don't meet quality, since the only contract is reward yes/no.
As for PP. Gah. Convergence was the final nail in the coffin. I lost all interest after seeing those minis, for all my factions. PP is increasing prices horribly for PVC to metals level. I would rather have metal at that price, thanks.
Please, my brothers and sisters, help me remember that the vapid empty promises of kickstarter are nothing but sales pitches. The temptation keeps perking its head, and I have to remember the SW wall... I need your support!
I currently own over 200 restic Mantic Basileans. All unassembled, with the mould lines half-heartedly removed on a dozen angels, a few knights cleaned up here and there, etc... after receiving them last year. The motivation is not exactly there.
I estimate 100 hours total just to clean and assemble the lot.
Then another 100 hours to paint.
This is the problem with restic, a model should never take as long to clean and assemble as it does to paint. I like painting. Cleaning, bending and assembling... feth no. Stabby with the knive, inhaly with the superglue. No fun.
Cautiously awaiting the 110+ pre-assembled minis from the DBX Kickstarter in "neo-restic". It's like restic, but rad-wicked-cool according to the marketing.
For once I made a smart decision and picked a team cast in clear plastic to play so even if the rest of it sleeps in the packaging for an indefinite amount of time, I will get some use out of it.
Oh and there's wave 2 deadzone (more restic) next month, and Mars Attacks (first neo-restic I'll have besides Loka) the month after.
I have to say a few words in favour of neo-restic... I did manage to paint 36 Loka minis in one week. Didn't bother priming them either!
Most of the restic I received from Mantic has found its way to the trash heap or been given away. I've kept the deadzone stuff in the vain hope that I'll actually get around to it someday.
If someone can actually crack the code on the material and the various mixes and resulting characteristics and remove the actual issues with the end product for 28mm miniatures, then I'm all for them giving it a go.
I think it's something they should not do on the dime of prepaying kickstarter backers though.
And if someone wants to give Mantic money in the hopes that "this time it will be different" after having already gotten the previous kickstarted products, I don't know what to say.
And if someone wants to give Mantic money in the hopes that "this time it will be different" after having already gotten the previous kickstarted products, I don't know what to say.
That is their business model and it seems to work as people still back their KS. Basically make a sub-standard product, lie about it and then say 'sorry, next time it will be better!'
I think that's because they were throwing a literal gakton of free models at people. I almost backed it and I know better. The only reason I backed Deadzone after the KoW debacle is because it was cleverly kickstarted before I received the most egregious violators of resticicity. Never again. Mantic will never see another dime from me and I'm actively campaigning against them in the local group. Friends don't let friends buy Mantic Restic.
I am not a restic knight. I am a metal snob (a very smug metal snob right now). But as a commission painter I have been afflicted with this PVC and I can say that yes, mold lines were a right painful issue and lead me to underestimate my estimate. But I persevered and scrapped and filed and the end result was pretty bloody good - here's some deadzone minis I rehabilitated: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/616521-.html?m=2 and http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/601214-.html?m=2
So you know what to do - send your restic to me with a big wad of cash and I'll sort em right out!
My Sedition Wars stuff looked so bad to my experienced eye that I have done nothing more than open the main box. I haven't opened a single baggie, as I can fully gauge the extent of the mould lines and what it will take to deal with them through the plastic.
Pewter and HIPS all the way for me. I would rather clean and assemble ten pewter models than one restic model. It is now up there with Finecast for me. So far the only restic I will willingly buy from this point is the Forgefather warband from Deadzone. Because it will allow me to play Squats again, and would really only
be a single squad, a support weapon, maybe a bike or two, and an Iron Anscestor in restic, because of the HIPS exo-armor. Less than twenty models in restic is doable if it's for Squats. But only Squats.
"Yea, as I walk through the valley of the thumb-cuts of death, I shall fear no material: for the art is within me; pin rods and thy scalpel they comfort me."
Having survived Sedition wars, I feel I have earned a stripe or badge, fulling convincing me I can survive any modeling project. I CALL UPON THEE, OLD METAL GALRAUCH. I CHALLENGE YOU, HELLCANNON!
Now that I fear no miniature, I fear I have been allured and tempted by Drakerys!
Perhaps.. if I only buy the large elementals? If I eschew the elves for the elemental boxes! Do we know that it will be as bad as it's predecessors?
Last month I took on a painting commission for a friend, several Privateer Press Convergence Vectors.
I will never, ever do that again. God those models were awful castings.
I don't mind mold lines, that's perfectly normal, but when you get mold lines that are almost .5mm thick and there is a shift in the main body that shift the two parts by almost 1mm it's almost impossible to fix properly.
The legs were all warped. I tried to use the hot water trick but they just bent back out of shape after a few hours.
There's also this odd "squishing" on most of the parts, the heavy and light Vectors. Almost like too much pressure was put on the mold and the cavities were compressed. There's no way I could fix that.
For now, I'm staying away from restic/PVC models. It's just not worth the trouble.
Ironically, I can't do battle with my Deadzone Marauders tonight because I have a large cut on my "knifing" thumb (that's the one that normally gets stuck by the blade) where I was being a bit laissez-faire with a block of Jarlsberg earlier.
If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Restic correction CNC laser? Sounds great. Just put the crappy Restic model in the machine and get out of it what the manufacturer would have made had they actually given a damn about quality.
My wallet saved me from deeper crimes at the end, and i only got Bones and Deadzone in my profile. At least i managed to not buy anymore stuff, besides my desire to do so. (lies, i went into deadzone wave-2, i NEED those forge fathers).
So my brothers, may i have to honour and be a Restic Squire?
In the sake of our quest, some brother can share their techniques they use to deal with our horrid enemy? Right now i only fight with the hobby knife and sandpaper...
I'd check Barter Town; lots of people probably have some floating around from the old days. I have 2-3 from a blister I picked up on a whim many years ago.
Thanks for the testimonials Hulksmash, Gymnogyps, Scarletsquig, and The Dwarf Wolf.
Regarding these:
weetyskemian44 wrote: But as a commission painter I have been afflicted with this PVC and I can say that yes, mold lines were a right painful issue and lead me to underestimate my estimate.
...
So you know what to do - send your restic to me with a big wad of cash and I'll sort em right out!
prplehippo wrote: Last month I took on a painting commission for a friend, several Privateer Press Convergence Vectors.
I will never, ever do that again. God those models were awful castings.
I don't mind mold lines, that's perfectly normal, but when you get mold lines that are almost .5mm thick and there is a shift in the main body that shift the two parts by almost 1mm it's almost impossible to fix properly.
I am sensing a trend: foist the impossible-to-deal-with minis off on your commission painter!
Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Pumpkins.....
Never had a problem with a pumpkin. Other than guts gettin under my fingernails. Perhaps everyone just needs a sharper knife, or better hand-eye coordination?
Restic-induced wounds, at least, I blame on the subpar material, not the user... I really can't speak to vegetables, though
This IS dakkadakka right? When don't we blame the victim?
Also, at least my(and my buddies) copy of Relic Knights looks good. Only two models with "No-Face" from everything Noh, Black Diamond, and Cerci plus Prismatics and the Void Angel. Mold lines aren't bad at all from what I've seen. One or two run in an elbow, but nothing deal-breaking.
I think some of these aren't as bad as others - like I said I found deadzone bearable, but I would have to draw the line at a badly slipped cast as there's nothing you can really do to save it. Send it back!
And lo I sit and prepare for my own impending doom. For the floodgates will soon open, and a tide of Wrath of Kings dual-restic shall wash over the near-sighted fool who dreamed that perhaps CMoN could deliver me redemption by Restic. I shall flagellate my hands in anticipation, but fear it shall be nothing compared to the penance one will have to pay for one's folly!
Let us recite our pledge:
Fealty with metal, valor with plastic, disloyalty with restic.
My brothers help me, for I fear that the Restic is manipulating my mind to make me buy more.
Just this day gone I found myself considering the purchase of the Slayer and Corruptor Helljack boxes, and a box of Nightwretches to accompany them. Where this but all that I had felt it would be nothing for my Cryx do need expanding.
Alas though, I now feel the urge to invest in Malifaux and Kings of War miniatures.
Worse still, I now dream such terrible dreams of mould lines, slippage and the terrible, terrible warping and sprue marks. They haunt my dreams and whisper their foul promises in my mind, telling me of the models and what they could be used for...
HARK There they are now, the whispering shadows that creep around the edges of my vision and haunt my every hour.
Even as I type this I know that I am to be forfeit, for they are closing and even now I can feel prickling sensations in my thumb......
The light of the metal is fading and around me the restic shadows draw close.....
I fear I will soon b~
Mantic had a golden opportunity to be the top dog of large scale fantasy wargames and blew it. Mantic Basileans are a prime example.
In many ways I find Mantic to be the exact mirror image of GW. With GW we (often) love the product and hate the company. WIth Mantic it is very hard to hate the company - it's like kicking a puppy! But man, their product.... pheeeew! I mean their hard plastic undead they got Renedra to do were lovely, but the KoW stuff they outsourced to China..... What a whiff!
And here I admit my addiction and bare my soul for the excoriation of the enlightened.
I admit it. I have far too much Mantic Restic for my own good. I got into the KoW starter with a huge Orc army. and even after palming off the fething awful gobboes on my youngest son (shameful, yes I know, but seriously what's a dad to do other than take advantage of the poorly developed aesthetic sense of one's junior offspring?) and two years of "meaning to get round to it" I've only got about 10% of the stuff painted, and I'm finding my ambitions for the large Orc army I wanted are being filled by my occasional foray into the realms of Oldhammer and dodgy 1980's "heritage" sculpting. It's not that I can't prep them well, or even that the sculpts (other than those gobboes....) are that bad. It is just the balance of fun to drudgery is off! Too much drudgery (prep) compared to not enough fun (painting). And boy, is there a lot of drugery in an Orc horde. But still, I get bored sticking hard plastic stuff together, basically doing anything other than painting = boring. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
And Bones. Bones. OK I did that too. And at least these are one-piece sculpts so no superglue hassles, and I had low expectations as I was just wanting a random box of el-cheapo crap for those times when I just needed a fantasy model. Like you do. And Cthulhu. Fhtagn!
Then Deadzone came about and I thought "hey. its a skirmish game so no big armies to paint, right?!" Fething wrong! Bloomin' kickstarter fever kicked in and I got loads of factions. Why? Beats me! But still, the terrain was great and the game is... ok... so.... And I did get all the models painted up for this one (after palming two factions off on my son and a friend.... there's a theme building here....)
And then I got click-happy on DBX. But at least these are one-piece sculpts so maybe the fun/drudgery balance will work out in my favour. And if not, there's still my son...
But now Deadzone 2nd wave is almost here. Why did I do it? I think the safest thing will be just to eBay it when it arrives without even opening the packet. That's it. I'm not sure my son will be able to take any more.
But I think I'm over it now. My backlog is too huge. I resisted the Mercs kickstarter and the Dust one is passing me by unclicked. Anything by Coolminiornot I now consider to be toxic. Mantic are rethinking their whole kickstarter strategy, so the lure of a bazillian models will not be there. For me, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it is in the shape of one-piece metal sculpts from traditional sources.
master of ordinance wrote: My brothers help me, for I fear that the Restic is manipulating my mind to make me buy more.
Just this day gone I found myself considering the purchase of the Slayer and Corruptor Helljack boxes, and a box of Nightwretches to accompany them. Where this but all that I had felt it would be nothing for my Cryx do need expanding.
...snip...
Fear not, dear brother. You shall not be alone wading through those masses of Privateer PVC. It appears the price we pay for the succinct rules is to suffer the inequities of Restic.
However, they have acknowledged the folly of the casts on their forums, though change, as with all necessary things, is slow.
Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Pumpkins.....
Never had a problem with a pumpkin. Other than guts gettin under my fingernails. Perhaps everyone just needs a sharper knife, or better hand-eye coordination?
If the temperature is too warm when you're carving, the flesh under the skin turns to slime, especially on larger pumpkins.
No fuzzies from a file, and you can take a ln x-acto to them just fine. They are noticeably harder than GW plastic, but they're not impossible to clean.
Despite the rule 'crunchiness' I don't regret backing Myth at all. The minis are fantastic, and the gameplay, once you learn it, is one of the most fun group games I've ever played.
Anything by Coolminiornot I now consider to be toxic.
Personally, I think that's a mistake.
Rivet Wars proved that pretty well, and I think Wrath of Kings and Arcadia Quest (which looks beautiful) are only going to change that further.
From that list, though, I consider Myth, Rivet Wars, and Arcadia Quest true board games with a lot of sculpts with exaggerated features. PVC works fine for those kinds of board game pieces, many of which will never need to be painted.
Wrath of Kings, much more of a wargame, will be the real test.
RiTides wrote: From that list, though, I consider Myth, Rivet Wars, and Arcadia Quest true board games with a lot of sculpts with exaggerated features. PVC works fine for those kinds of board game pieces, many of which will never need to be painted.
Wrath of Kings, much more of a wargame, will be the real test.
Quit yucking my yum, oh lord of the Restic Knight Pantheon
I'll grant you Rivet and Arcadia (even if both look great!) but I think, while Myth is a board game, the minis are definitely "minis" even if they are pre assembled.
But yeah... I think Wrath is going to impress a lot of folks. I've been hands on with "most" of the plastics that have been completed and I was happy with what I saw.
Then again... I didn't mind the clean up or detail on the Sedition Wars minis and some of the Deadzone stuff (the Orks, mainly), so I'm probably a bit more forgiving than others.
Alright, so I think I have an actually useful agenda item for us (beyond reminding each other not to buy more models we hate.)
In a lot of Kickstarters and forum threads there is a great deal of confusion about what "restic", resin, PVC, hard PVC, hard plastic and HIPs actually mean. It would be nice to develop at least a cultural norm for using only specific words for these different materials such that we could eliminate confusion and publicly shame those companies who try to keep that confusion going. For example, the Drakyris KS which refers to its hard PVC as "hard plastic" is confusing, and perhaps not intentionally so, because people ask about hard plastic (which PVC is) when they really mean HIPS like GW and Wargames factor use.
So, to educate ourselves, here are some relevant articles on the topic of the various types of plastics we see:
Resin : The resin we think of when we think of high end boutique miniatures. Hand cast, hard to do in very large volume. Holds detail very well, and is easy to clean up. Also called Urethane Resin, or Epoxy Resin, which seem to be subsets. Urethane (poly or otherwise) are the normal sorts you see. Material properties can vary a good bit, with Ramshackle using a somewhat brittle resin that is stinky while other brands (and many home done models) use a less brittle and not so stinky resin.
PVC (poly vinyl chloride) Same sort of stuff they use in making pipes. Privateer Press, Mantic and others use this material as it is much cheaper to make the molds compared to HIPS, but can be mass produced better compared to resin. Downsides are that it tends not to hold sharp detail well, and filing/cleaning is a pain due to the toughness of the material. Goes by the other names of "restic" and "plastic". Huge range of variability in the final product due to huge range of variability in material properties.
HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) The kind of plastic used in modeling kits, GW and Wargames Factory models. Usually considered the gold standard for mass production, as details can be very fine and parts fitted together very cleanly, as well as being easy to clean up on the user's end. Plastic glue can be used instead of super glue to weld pieces together. Downsides on the producer's side is that the mold tooling is very expensive, and you cannot have undercuts.
That's the quick and dirty. Epoxy resin (resin), polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and high impact styrene (HIPS) are the three materials we are likely to see. We should learn these and become sticklers for the proper use of the name, and teach others the same. By this we might encourage manufacturers to be more forthcoming with information, and go after those who attempt to obfuscate what they intend to make their models out of. Knowledge is power, and we must wield that power against those who seek refuge in vaguaries and deception, as well as their supporters in the comments sections and forums who claim "Hey, they never said it was hard styrene! They said hard plastic!" etc. People will try to deflect blame and that is understandable, but the duty for us to shine the light of truth and clarity so that everyone can see. Our sloppy use of terms in the past has hurt us all, and we must step up.
Apparently I don't remember how to do embedded URLs... little help? ok got it.
That's a fantastic list, Wehrkind! Maybe making it into a Dakka article that could be linked to would be good for information campaign purposes?
I think you could also just edit a line into the Epoxy Resin description mentioning that what is most commonly used is urethane. Smooth On gave a great demo of it at AdeptiCon showing the various durometers that can be achieved using different urethanes... I think you even mentioned that you've tried one which gives you a more flexible cast.
It's all fascinating, and the more wargamers know about the three most common processes for making "plastic" wargaming models, the better they can make decisions about what to purchase.
Edit: I see you already edited in a line about urethane. Later today, I will try to type up a similar list describing how each is produced, as I think that's something people don't understand, either. Epoxy resin is generally cast using a flexible silicone mold, whereas the others require metal tooling. HIPS is the least forgiving of undercuts, and models must be designed specifically with it in mind, while epoxy resin can accomodate a lot of undercuts... and PVC is somewhere in the middle from what I've gathered (it can be flexed out of the metal mold more easily than HIPS).
Drakerys said High Strength PVC as I recall. Or very hard pvc... it is in one of the posts in the thread today.
ABS is pretty close to HIPS (being a styrene derivative.) Apparently what Lego are made of.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From zreef in the Drak KS thread:
The FAQ is pretty clear on this:
What kind of plastic do you use for the miniatures ?
Our cumulated previous experience with plastic miniatures on other endeavours has made us decide on a very hard PVC plastic.
It should be noted that VERY few producers use Epoxy resin, it is to thick and the set times often too fast/slow for the use in small miniatures, it is also very hard in silicone molds, leading to early mold failure. PU comes in many formulations and is often colored grey to show detail, hence the confusion between Epoxy resin and PU resin.
Epoxies are stronger but usually more brittle, most typically used in other industries for larger thicker walled castings that require strength or chemical resistance.
PU is formulated anywhere from a rubber constancy to very high impact, just short of what you will find in an Epoxy.
When working with miniature scale you would use a PU with a moderate set time and very low viscosity to help deal with the trapped air in your open face mold pour.