This is for people who left GW games (Partially or completely) and went on to play other games. This is not a place for rants against GW or for GW. I don't want to hear name calling such as "whiners" or "White Knights." What I do want to hear is why you left GW. Then tell us what games you went to and why you chose those over the numerous other options. Maybe a little background for context might help too.
So, no. This is not a GW bashing thread. Think of it as a celebration of diversity or something.
I'll start.
I started playing when my older brother bought a Rogue Trader from a friend. I was but a wee lad at the time but I fell in love with the darkness and warfare in the game. I loved the mixture of magic and technology and instantly started buying some space marines. After a while, me and my brother had a nice little collection of different factions. When 2nd hit, I started Sisters of Battle and they have been my primary army ever since. (by no means my only one though.)
Fast forward.
I took a little break in 5th and came back in 6th. I really liked 6th but was discouraged by the gross power differences in codexes. I heard much complaining that at the time I didn't understand. Then, when 7th came out, I saw all the things I didn't like about GW magnified and coupled with the business practices I had tried to ignore finally burst and I said "No more."
I started looking for alternatives. I had already been eying up Warmachine and Infinity. I heard they were both balanced and didn't have units that were usless rubbish or OP. They both looked very good and I'd hear players sing their praises. So I did my research carefully. The more of the fluff I read, the more I fell deeper into it. The world of Warmachine was far more deep and nuanced than I thought. Then I found the Iron Mother figure from Convergence of Cyriss from Warmachine and fell in love. I started a small army of Convergence. But I just couldn't escape Infinity either. The models were so dynamic and full of character (not to mention gorgeous details and proportion) that I couldn't resist. Also, the more I read up on the rules, the more fascinating they sounded. It was a deeply tactical game with realistic movements and a lot of thought put into it.
So, now I have a bunch of Lovecraftian machine worshiping cultists for Warmachine and a bunch of scrappy Nomads for Infinity. The more I play these games, the more excited I become about them.
I stopped buying GW products and broadening out the day I purchased some Victoria Miniatures squads in a whim. Once I say them i started seeking out alternatives and found so many amazing models for better prices etc.
Then I got Flames of War rules for very cheap and that rule book is far superior to GW so I ended up searching for other rules that I could enjoy and play as well.
So while I dont buy from GW anymore (no more books either) I will still play the game. So I guess I have partially left.
I do think all Wargamers need to play at least 3 different games standard to broaden their experience and so on.
So now I have 1 fantasy and 40k army only. 1 armada fleet. 1 FLames of War force, a crap ton of roleplay stuff (not a serious roleplayer at all though, just a casual thing here) and very few GW models.
So I guess what drives me away from GW is their doing just enough. For example the 6th edition guard codex has the bare minimum display/writing of non cadian regiments. Their models are largely really weird proportions and many have the laziest detail I have ever seen. The rules are somewhat lazy too. Plus the huge costs.
I enjoy the good bits enough to stick with the game itself.
So if you can play more than one wargame guys, I highly suggest you and a mate start a new game just to try it. There is a reason most people who have branched out recommend it.
Why I left GW:
From the start of my 40k days, I've been an advocate of using whatever models you can, GW, FW, converted or stock 3rd party models, so in that regard, I've been moving away from GW from the beginning. My Imperial Guard were the first army that used only 3 GW minis (2 Commissars and a Russ), and I also have a pre-Heresy army using Anvil Industry Exo-Lords.
My abandonment of, or rather a refusal to catch up with, the rules, came with the release of the new Imperial Guard and then 7th edition. For a start, I didn't feel the need to buy a new codex given that the 'current' (at the time) one worked perfectly well for what I wanted it for, and the changes could be summarised on a single side of A4 paper to tuck inside the codex.
Then, with 7th, it got worse; I had only 2 years mileage out of the book I paid £45 for on the week of release, and the new product I was being asked to buy contained huge amounts of recycled background, far less non-rules content, and the one major rules change (the introduction of a Psychic phase) was not something that was a part of the 40k I wanted to play. Fantasy can keep it's game-changing Wizards, I prefer Psykers as a more subtle and supporting role in sci-fi games. That, and the increased cost, meant 6th is here to stay for me.
Where I went afterwards:
Even before 40k took something of a back seat (and I do still play whenever I can, but the opportunities for that get fewer every week) I have opened myself up to other games. I've given Mantic's Warpath a shot in both iterations, vastly preferring the 2nd edition and if I could, I would get my dwindling gaming group to try that instead. I bought Deadzone on pre-release as I love the models, the rules, the gameplay, the aesthetic and the setting. Most recently, I've got into Malifaux with the money I would have otherwise spent on updating 40k books, and after only a couple of games I'm blown away with the quality of the rules. Having what are (in my opinion) the best models on the market for any game helps too
I've not left 40k behind, but it's not, and never really was, my only game.
I just jumped into All Quiet on the Martian Front, a 15mm scale game set in an alternate 1914 where the events described H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds actually took place. The game was designed and written by Rick Priestley, Alessio Cavatore and Ernie Baker.
It is a very new game and only recently became available at retail after fulfilling an extensive Kickstarter campaign. I didn't get involved during the Kickstarter, but I snagged a Kickstarter pledge on Bartertown and have two very large human and Martian armies. I am still muddling through the rules and haven't played a game yet, but the mechanics seem solid and the setting is really fun. The models are okay, not the best and certainly not the worst ones out there, and are reasonably priced. So far it seems that the company behind the game is very interactive with their fans, and there is a big emphasis on fun and creativity in the game. I need that. I was getting into a gaming funk, so to speak, and really began to lose interest in the endless purchasing cycle that I was starting to associate with 40k so something light hearted and fun has been most welcome.
I have also started playing Battletech again, and taught a friend of mine (and regular 40k opponent) to play. Battletech was my first game and holds a very dear place in my heart so it feels good to be stomping around in `Mechs again.
I haven't completely given up 40k, but I have not bought 7th edition and have no real plans to buy into that edition any time soon. The last 6 months have turned me off of 40k and 7th edition's release was the final nail in the 40k coffin. I just have no desire to deal with the negotiation required for 7th edition pick up games, and my regular gaming group of 4 guys was reduced to just me and another friend shortly before 7th's release. To be honest if that group of regular opponents was still functioning I'd likely still be playing 40k as my primary game, but now it is relegated to a tertiary spot on my priority list because dealing with all of the different codicies, formations, and expansions is just too much work.
So, for now I am going to push Martian tripods around and try to vaporize humans with heat rays. The lasguns and splinter weapons will have to sit on the shelf for a while.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I just jumped into All Quiet on the Martian Front, a 15mm scale game set in an alternate 1914 where the events described H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds actually took place. The game was designed and written by Rick Priestley, Alessio Cavatore and Ernie Baker.
It is a very new game and only recently became available at retail after fulfilling an extensive Kickstarter campaign. I didn't get involved during the Kickstarter, but I snagged a Kickstarter pledge on Bartertown and have two very large human and Martian armies. I am still muddling through the rules and haven't played a game yet, but the mechanics seem solid and the setting is really fun. The models are okay, not the best and certainly not the worst ones out there, and are reasonably priced. So far it seems that the company behind the game is very interactive with their fans, and there is a big emphasis on fun and creativity in the game. I need that. I was getting into a gaming funk, so to speak, and really began to lose interest in the endless purchasing cycle that I was starting to associate with 40k so something light hearted and fun has been most welcome.
I have also started playing Battletech again, and taught a friend of mine (and regular 40k opponent) to play. Battletech was my first game and holds a very dear place in my heart so it feels good to be stomping around in `Mechs again.
I haven't completely given up 40k, but I have not bought 7th edition and have no real plans to buy into that edition any time soon. The last 6 months have turned me off of 40k and 7th edition's release was the final nail in the 40k coffin. I just have no desire to deal with the negotiation required for 7th edition pick up games, and my regular gaming group of 4 guys was reduced to just me and another friend shortly before 7th's release. To be honest if that group of regular opponents was still functioning I'd likely still be playing 40k as my primary game, but now it is relegated to a tertiary spot on my priority list because dealing with all of the different codicies, formations, and expansions is just too much work.
So, for now I am going to push Martian tripods around and try to vaporize humans with heat rays. The lasguns and splinter weapons will have to sit on the shelf for a while.
I've never heard of that game. Seeing as how War of the Worlds if one of my all time favorite books, I'll have to check it out!
I haven't completely left GW, I still play their games, but I try to find much cheaper alternatives so its more like I've partially left.. (Hopefully that counts) The price range of GW's models is for me is quite simply, ridiculous.
I don't buy much from GW. The models, I've found, are too expensive for my taste. Instead, I buy the codex or army book related to an army that I want to play. After that, maybe I'll buy a commander model, but the majority, and sometimes all, of the army will be paper tokens or entirely proxied armies. I also make my own terrain, usually made out of cardboard. (I can't find foamboard) The unofficial WHFB army books also lower the costs I pay and appear to be quite good without being overpowered. There have also been some games where I've found FREE rules without the expectation of selling models, such as a Doctor Who miniatures game.
No idea if I will return to GW, but I will continue down this path until they change for (at least what I see as) the better.
I started out with Tau when they where first released. I played them even when the codex was showing its age compared to the other codexs. I started playing IG as a second army in part because of the OOP models. I even made an entire army full of them. But I got tired of my well painted figures staying in a transport only to exit be on the table for one or two turns and being shot off the board. Also the price increases made fell that I was starting to not get my bang for my buck.
I took a break from 40k, turning to Infinity and now have at 4 factions (I might purge down to 2 soon) and painted terrain for at least two different boards. I got into malifuax as I liked the new plastic models, and the western, victorian, gothic horror style appealed to me and it gives me a nice non science fiction game to play. I am sticking to 3 factions, Guild, Outcasts, and 10 Thunders (But 10 Thunders lets me use models from each faction so I get a lot of mileage out of the minis) and enough terrain for at least one board.
Finally I play X-wing. I have a good mix of rebels and imperials and I always feel that I can make interesting lists for the rebels and the imperials.
I moved away from 40k and never got into fantasy despite trying a high elf army for short while because the game seemed too tired and the price increases made me feel that i was not getting my monies worth for what I was buying. I still like the lore even if I find it a little dull with the never ending war and grimdark, but I think I just got tired of the whole thing. Plus losing with my Tau constantly and then either winning big or losing big with IG did not help. I am not sure when I got tired of 40k and its setting but when I did, it was a hard fall and it felt like GW was not doing anything that was making me come back. Compared to CB, Wyrd, and FF they where able to grab my imagination, excitement, and my money.
Despite having a new tau codex come along that was good and the ability to play a all battlesuit army via farsight, I had sold all of my other GW stuff by then and the entry price for a new tau army was to much for me. I would have to sell all of my infinity minis and terrain, along with my malifaux minis terrain, and my X wing ships to get back to my old tau level where I had at least 4,000 points of tau. And selling three games just to get into one game in my mind is dumb.
I saw a statement on here that I agree with wholeheartedly and that is to play at least 3 different war games. I've only been playing 40K since 2012 and since then I've branched out into quite a few different games. I play Deadzone, Dust Tactics, Bolt Action, Sedition Wars, Battles of Westeros, Battletech, and a few others whose names are escaping me at the moment. I love war and strategy games.
I can definitely understand the resentment towards GW's prices, especially when you can sometimes get a complete game for 25 bucks more than a standard unit for 40K costs. I've also recently discovered that certain games models make for excellent stand ins for some 40K armies. It's been a while since I've bought a new GW model, too busy spending money on other games. I love 40K but I left GW shortly after I got into the hobby....I think the thunderfire cannon might have been the last straw for me, 60 dollars for two shoddy models was asking a bit much.
When I started 40k, it was right before 3rd edition came out. I saw my cousin painting khorne berzerkers one night and was fascinated. I ended up getting into blood angels.
I was in 7th or 8th grade, and I tried to recruit some friends to play. I successfully got 3 or 4 to purchase some models, but only ended up playing a few pick up games with two of them. I mostly played once a week with my cousin and his friend. It was a great time in my life.
Then I went to college and left it behind. About this time last year, I found an old box of my valhallan models and got the itch to paint again.
Having a pretty big army painted, and a new project to paint, I really wanted to start playing again, and I still do.
What is burning me out is the LAYERS and LAYERS of rules. Honestly I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person but the rules are a pain in the ass to keep track of and I don't'haven't played enough games against enough opponents to even know what I'm up against half the time.
You could completely make up a rule and I wouldn't even bother to argue it. It just seems like its gotten SO complex since 3rd edition.
That said, it is still my goal to fnish my guard army, combine it with my blood angels, and I have a 2k list of imperial fists that I'm happy with and about 25% painted.
So, I really haven't left GW, but I am at the point where I will never invest in another game of theirs. I REALLY love the look of fantasy, but with the way I paint, and the amount of money I'd be looking at I can't even begin to imagine starting fantasy.
Not to mention problem number 1 for me- recruiting players. I don't know many people that play fantasy, and the ones that do are the annoying young ones that have an obscene model count of unpainted stuff. Sorry, but I spend a gakload of time on my models and I want to see a good looking game unfold.
I'm lookint at pulling the trigger on Kings of War by Mantic soon. I think it will be an easier game to learn and teach to others and I can still use fantasy models if I really like. I'm really excited by this game for some reason, and I hope it can keep me out of fantasy. We'll see.
I supplement my Games Workshop gaming with a bit of X-Wing , I paint and collect the occasional Corvus Belli Infinity model but I've not yet got around to playing a proper game.
At the moment I'm looking into Flames of War, I've got some PSC Panzer IV's and Tigers and they've been a blast to put together, hopefully the start of a DAK force.
I've not left GW but I've broadened my horizons, It's all great fun
Still an avid player of 2nd Ed 40k. I've played every version since Rogue Trader, and 2nd sits best with me. I've not really left GW games, I still play Blood Bowl, Warhammer Quest and Mordhiem, but just recently I've been getting into Dropzone Commander and I'll be playing some Deadzone for the first time soon.
As for the prices of miniatures, eBay is my friend.
I never really played Warhammer Fantasy, but I have every army book for 5th edition and the Perry's make some spot on Empire stand ins with their War Of The Roses minis. So I'll be doing that in the future. Although I still play GW games, it's the older versions and the specialist games that get my love and attention.
While I haven't left, I have picked up X-Wing and it's been fun so far.
That being said, TC, "why you left GW" doesn't really have a relevance to the conversation here, so if you want to not let it devolve at some point, I'd take that part out. The core of your post is "what games do you play beyond GW, and why do you enjoy them?", keep it simple.
troa wrote: While I haven't left, I have picked up X-Wing and it's been fun so far.
That being said, TC, "why you left GW" doesn't really have a relevance to the conversation here, so if you want to not let it devolve at some point, I'd take that part out. The core of your post is "what games do you play beyond GW, and why do you enjoy them?", keep it simple.
But the reason for this post was about exodus. I want to find out who left, why, and where they went.
It's hard to say why I got out of GW without going on a rant so I'll just say: an expanding interest in other games, maturing as a person, developing a life (college, job, wife, pets, house, etc...) and the ever rising cost of anything GW.
I was looking at other, smaller games. I found Warmachine back in Mk. I, but that didn't work out and I quickly became disillusioned with the game. I always loved Historicals, so when Flames of War came out I dove head first into that and haven't regretted it for a moment.
In general though I now look at smaller games that involve less of a financial commitment, be they miniature or collectible or what, that are stand alone or I just collect various figures for use with independent rule sets. There are a ton of 15mm rule sets out if you don't like FoW. I can use my small collection of 28mm cowboys with about any rule set. I also write my own rule sets for various games.
I quit buying GW for the prices, and stopped playing the game for the terrible rules. Sure, some people like them still. Some people are also into poo-porn. I try not to judge.
I started playing KoW right after GW, Deadzone and X-Wing followed, and now I'm starting Warmachine. Individual model costs are high, but I have a pretty large Khador force for $200: widowmakers, starter set, winter guard, Kovnik joe, standard/sergeant, eButcher, 3 units DRs and Fenris. All of that is metal except the starter, and I don't feel overwhelmed. The basics were taught to me within an hour and it feels less complex and more gratifying.
I haven't 'left' them really, I still have my Tyranids, and even bought the 5th edition codex. I haven't played for over a year though.
But what really put me off was simply Australian pricing. $40 for a box of infantry I can grudgingly swallow. $75 for 3 Warriors even more grudgingly. $100 for a single monstrous creature? Cast in the cheapest material you can for a miniature? No. $115 for something about the same size but with wings? feth off. When I need so many to make a standard sized army? I'm gone.
I stuck with 40k for a long time because it's what my group played. We tried forays into other game systems, almost always still GW games, but nothing really stuck. We always went back to 40k, and joked that 'the next price hike would be the last'. Well, it's ironic that GW's last actual price hike (before they moved to increasing prices only on repacks) was the last straw. I'm done. I'm not paying their prices, and haven't since I bought the 5th edition Tyranid codex. 7th edition 40k? Nope.
What I moved on to: Infinity
Here's a game that appeals to me. The small model count lets me paint one model at a time and still feel like I'm getting somewhere. Here's a game that lets me indulge in fantastic terrain that actually makes a difference on the table. And run by a company that not only interacts with the community but has studio members that play at tournaments and know their game, and playtest it properly. I can make a game out of a bunch of models I like the look of and have a competitive army - what a concept!
The challenge was getting people I knew to play it. As above, we never managed to break away from 40k before, but I wasn't giving up Infinity. I managed to talk my brother into trying it, and now he's as interested in the system as me. I got a friend into it as well, though a bit less enthusiastically. We're still working on getting the other two into it.
I haven't sold my Tyranids, nor do I intend to. If GW ever actually wake up, fix their pricing and fix their rules, I'll get back into 40k. But for now, I don't see the point.
Fantastic. Rules wise, it's similar to 6th edition fantasy, but with much less dependence on magic. Magic is a supplement, not a requirement. The rules are tight and blow WHFB out of the water.
I started 40k in 4th edition and played most of my games in that edition, playing several games a week at a local store. 5th edition, I bought the big book and the starter for the paperback rulebook just for transporting. 6th edition came out and I didnt even buy the big rulebook, just the paperback/starter. I honestly don't play anywhere like I did: life, family, work, local store closure all seems to affect time. I get maybe 2 games in a month (on a good month)...
Now, I'm looking at 7th edition with no starter paperback rule book. Since I play Orks I have that new codex and the source book I'm eying too. The big question is
Do I really wanna drop 85+50+50 for new books AND cash on models to tweek my orks to get them enjoying the new codex? Or just stop GW and try out another game entirely like Dropzone Commander? I could easily drop $350US. Do I? or do I look into a "lighter" game like one of those skirmish games from infinity, manic, or mallifaux that don't seem to require as much time and cash to play?
Phydox wrote: I started 40k in 4th edition and played most of my games in that edition, playing several games a week at a local store. 5th edition, I bought the big book and the starter for the paperback rulebook just for transporting. 6th edition came out and I didnt even buy the big rulebook, just the paperback/starter. I honestly don't play anywhere like I did: life, family, work, local store closure all seems to affect time. I get maybe 2 games in a month (on a good month)...
Now, I'm looking at 7th edition with no starter paperback rule book. Since I play Orks I have that new codex and the source book I'm eying too. The big question is
Do I really wanna drop 85+50+50 for new books AND cash on models to tweek my orks to get them enjoying the new codex? Or just stop GW and try out another game entirely like Dropzone Commander? I could easily drop $350US. Do I? or do I look into a "lighter" game like one of those skirmish games from infinity, manic, or mallifaux that don't seem to require as much time and cash to play?
I'd also throw in 'time' as another variable. Time to paint up a force, time for set up and time for play. Me, I just can't justify the time it takes for 40k anymore. I have deadlines to make. But the smaller games I can get in and often get more of my strategy ich scratched.
I started playing 40k at the tail end of the Rouge Trader days and left after (I think) 4th edition came out. I had a really nice crimson fist army and a awesome steel legion army. When the rules came out, GW saw fit to delete two of my main tanks, te griffon and the exterminator. Two models that I had paid good money for. I was already tired of buying a new rule book every couple years. Everything was going up in price. I played bloodbowl, man o war, necromunda, gorka morka, battlefleet gothic, and a few others. I got tired of the lack of support for the smaller games and increased costs and stupid rules changes with 40k. I still read the books though. Love the fluff.
I played 40k from 1996-2001, then ended up stopping playing because there was a falling out with my then-local FLGS that basically blacklisted me from the store, the next-closest FLGS was like an hour away and the people there weren't friendly (very cliqueish and seemed like they didn't take well to "outsiders") the few times I had gone over. I tried to start again in 2006 but got sidetracked and abandoned the idea. I wanted to start yet again the end of 2013/early 2014, but I saw what GW had become and didn't want to touch a broken game after reading and watching some things on how 6th edition played, it seemed like they took the worst qualities of everything and threw it out there with a refusal to care about making it good. I looked at the prices, and vowed to never pay such outrageous costs for so little.
I picked up Warmachine about two months ago, but have only played a few games. As far as games go, it's good, but the more I think about it the less I like it; I'm not 100% sure why, it just feels bland, mechanical and soulless, and I'm not sure if I'm going to continue with it; just something about it doesn't "click" with me. It feels almost opposite like 40k - where 40k didn't feel like a game, Warmachine feels too much like a game. The best way I can describe it is that it almost feels like playing an MMO or MOBA; the storyline is there, but I don't care about it, I want to win. It brings out the worst of me, tempered by several years now of playing World of Warcraft. Either I win, or I get frustrated at failure.
On Sunday I played a demo of Bolt Action, and it was amazing. I loved how the game played, how clear but cinematic it felt, and most of all how even though I lost both demo games I played, losing felt like part of the story (the "narrative" if you will), not "You messed up and failed" like I feel every time I lose in Warmachine (which is often). My Germans got overrun twice, and it didn't feel bad at all. It actually felt like that *should* have happened. I still recall some awesome "movie-like" moments in the demo games I played. It, for lack of a better way of expressing it, felt like a wargame should.
I want to play KoW, but nobody plays Fantasy here anyways and the few that did that I talked to refused to consider anything outside of GW and got openly hostile when I was talking up the benefits of Kings of War, so I abandoned that idea. It's on the slate as something I want to play with my brother at some point as many years ago he played WHFB with me. Other games somewhat interest me but there's zero interest in them, I think I was lucky enough that people wanted to try Bolt Action when someone offered to demo it, seeing as that particular FLGS had Malifaux people who disappeared (and it didn't look that great to me, but I'd have given it a try) and no longer stocks Warmachine because nobody wants to play that either. This FLGS is very much still in the GW/40k camp with people that just like 40k and can't give it up despite its failings, although hopefully with Bolt Action now being stocked and people showing interest that will be chipped away. I keep reiterating to everyone and anyone within earshot at the store that there is so much more out there than just 40k. I'd love to try more historicals like Ancients or Napoleonics or Civil War, I'd love to try FOW or DZC or Deadzone, even something I really have zero interest in like Dreadball. But nope, it's been all 40k all the time, and nobody knows or cares about the myriad of other games out there; I think it's because they've invested a bit in 40k (but ironically most of them buy secondhand on eBay) so don't want to put money into other games, so because a core group play 40k others play 40k so they have people to play with, etc. and they are kept on the treadmill.
I still think of giving 40k one final chance, since I have roughly 1,000ish points of Tau from 2006 lying around, and it's still popular at the FLGS with people who, for whatever reason, just won't look elsewhere. Of course, I'd buy anything off of eBay as I refuse to give GW any money for what they've become. For me, the prices are the biggest thing. If the prices were reasonable, I'd forgive a shoddy system because I'd only play it casually. But when the rules suck and the company charges an arm and a leg for "premium" products that in reality aren't any better than others, no way.
It is more accurate to say that I have left the current GW - I still play and enjoy Mordheim, Necromunda, and the third editions of both Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000.
But I play Kings of War more than any other game, though I still enjoy Mordheim more than either Warhammer or 40K.
Heck, I play more Deadzone than either, these days, and I do not get to play nearly enough Deadzone. (My group plays it a lot... on a night that I am working. The bastards.)
The why... I do not much like anything about GW these days - I do not like the rules, and I do not like a lot of the miniatures.
And I really do not like the shenanigans that GW is getting up to as a corporation.
While I do not like the prices, the prices are the least of the issues.
Started in third, played into fourth. During this time I had tried out a couple of interesting new games: Warmachine (Mk 1 rules) and Flames of War, neither really took hold for me.
Then the game store I played at closed down and the fallout caused my former group to scatter to the winds, so I took a extended break.
When I came back it was near the end of 5th. I gamely tried updating my Salamanders from their 3rd ed list (my 4th ed list would have been grossly illegal), but pricing made it difficult.
I rediscovered Warmachine with its Mk2 rules (a vast improvement) and started looking into FoW again (especially after Blood Guts, and Glory made my preferred army, US tank company, so much more viable).
Also, I discovered Dropzone Commander and its fantastic models.
Alas I was nowhere near fielding a FoW army, couldn't make it on the official WM nights (and they generally didn't show up on open gaming nights), and while people people were buying DZC armies, they just weren't bringing them in to play during 5th and 6th ed 40K Then I had to go on hiatus again (new future gamer was added to the family), and when I came back it was 7th, with needing to buy a new $85 rulebook and a whole new meta.
Luckily another DZC player appeared around this time and people were becoming much more interested in the game after watching us play...
I started with GW back in the 80s when my friend's brother introduced me to the world. One of my brothers also had a decent number of 40k models from the Rogue Trader era, and I still have a few of the books he had from then too (including Rogue Trader itself). I wasn't particularly old nor was I possessed of a great deal of money so my RTB01 marines were the sum of my collection for a while. In the late 90s some of my friends from high school were playing a game and it occurred to me that I could actually get some stuff now so I ended up getting gifts here and there, shopping on Bartertown, etc. A few years passed and having a real job and a hermit-like lifestyle enabled me to amass a staggering collection of GW stuff. My not-particularly-complete inventory has 3400 models in it, and it's likely only about 60-80% finished. I'm not a casual fly-by-night customer, in other words...or particularly sane thinking about it.
My drifting away really started back when the Helldrake came out. Yeah, the near-annual price increases to that point had sucked, as did my growing pile of obsolete codexes from 3rd Edition on, but I still loved most of the armies and models. The Helldrake and other CSM releases at the time just...didn't excite me. I didn't like the models at all, and thus I wasn't going to pay a premium for them. That's a pattern that repeated itself with nearly every release from that time (Oct 2012?) with the only notable exceptions being the Tau, Vampire Counts and Imperial Knights. In that time, many of my favorite armies have been updated, but I just couldn't muster the energy to care as the new stuff was not nearly cool enough to justify the asking price for me. Over time as my interests elsewhere picked up I stopped buying the books because it was money that could go to increasing interests rather than waning ones.
The "meh" attitude towards GW was cemented by their hurried release of 7th edition. I dropped a decent bit of coin on 6th and some of the neat toys it came with, and in 2 years GW basically sent the hat back around. My lack of playing a single game in 6th combined with a lot of their other dubious actions (not getting into a rant there) made me realize that I just had had enough. It's doubtful I'll get back into GW rulesets due to the $135 price tag currently, though I wouldn't rule out buying particular models I may like in the future.
In the interim, the game that's seen the most playtime from me is X-Wing, because I was a huge Star Wars nerd before I was a 40k nerd. I have ridiculously sized fleets for both sides (including 15 Wave 4 ships waiting for me to unpack them) and enjoy the game when I get a chance to play it. I'm not particularly good at it, but what's not to love about reliving all those times spent with the toys or the classic LucasArts video games?
For more traditional miniatures game stuff I have a *huge* amount of DeadZone stuff, and have a complete collection of DreadBall (including Extreme when it ships). Dreadball is a nice change of pace as a "sports" game and DeadZone scratches the "skirmish level game" itch. The idea of using DeadZone tiles to build a Death Star trench board for X-Wing still lingers in the back of my mind since I have the battlezones to do it (did I mention it was a huge amount of stuff?). I keep eyeing my WHFB models and Mantic's KoW rules so that might be something that happens in 2044 when I get around to actually finishing a WHFB army.
I'm also waiting on a few other KS projects; in particular KD:M has me in semi-permanent "Kid before Christmas" mode.
My latest foray has been into Flames of War because I loved old school Space Marine/Epic 40,000 and I love history, WW2 in particular (nostalgia...big selling point for me apparently). I haven't gotten too far into that other than collecting up the models I want to start with, but so far it's been fun to assemble and paint things. I'm also trying out all sorts of new hobby things as a result of FoW in terms of basing and such so it's like those heady first days in the hobby where you have no idea what you're doing, but it's still fun to just put something together. There will definitely be more dollars going towards this in the near future, even if I'm trying to be more sensible with my spending (mortgages don't pay themselves off, unfortunately).
I started collecting Lord of the Rings models waaaaay back when they first came out but never really played, just painted (I was like 12 at the time). I eventually branched out and entered 40k as 5th edition hit. I even joined a club to get some actual games in.
Since I began 40k I had had half an eye on fantasy and bought into it as 8th hit 2 years later.
Fast forward another year, year and a half years and the club had dwindled down to about 6 regulars. One of those regulars played blood angels (at the time a top teir army) with the typical netlist of the day. My fluffy armoured company couldn't do anything to beat that list and I quickly got sick of playing him. Fantasy took over more and more as my primary game. By the tail end of 6th I had stopped playing 40k, mostly due to the rules. The prices hurt too but it was the rules that did it.
I never actually stopped and considered that I had quit, I just waved it off as focusing on fantasy. I was fully prepared to jump back in when I heard 6th was coming. Then I played an introduction game of 6th and realized I was done.
I have now found the same thing has happened with fantasy in the last year, dystopian wars took its place as my main game, and I played fantasy less and less until I had a choice between a fantasy and dyst wars tournament on the same day. I went in for dyst wars and realized I had left fantasy behind too.
So thats how it went for me, not with a bang but with a fizzle. I found games with better rules, the same or better models at better prices and I just stopped caring. I play a lot more than just dyst wars now and I do still buy GW products to paint occasionally, but they used to get 100% of my hobby dollar, maybe $1,000 a year. Now that I work full time they have gotten all of $200 or so off me since the start of the years while I have spent well over $4,000 in the same time frame on the wider hobby.
I suppose it's cathartic to air ones grievances in a place "everyone knows your name" (or thoughts...).
I started in Oct 2010 in a small community built around beatface builds. Played in 'Ard Boyz my first year and took 4th or 3rd locally, pretty good for a scrub. Long story short, started traveling for work and I started getting snubbed for games because I was "too WAAC" to use the slang for brevity. The rules "slide," as creep implies a direction other than down, culminated this last December for me with the first attempt of adding Apoc to my 40k along with digital content as exorbitant pricing. Let it be said, the pricing never bothered me much until the value of the rules tanked hard and they started doing crap like Eldar Dire Avengers nonsense. Paying for quality is one thing, but for reduced value makes you feel like a sucker.
I've tried other games but not until recently did I double down on Warmachine, Infinity, and Malifaux. I'd play others if there was a following to try them, but I'm leery about investing into games without an established crowd. I sold a good chunk of 40k to grease the wheels on this but still have 4 armies in the wings to keep around. I'm taking the risk that the company will tank hard enough to either force better quality control and put the company on a different path or the out right failure and buy out of another company to "fix" things. Too much like TSR is what's being said these days.
I play Malifaux (Guild, Outcasts, & want Arcanists), Infinity (Ariadna), and Warmahordes (Cryx, Circle), for the record. Loving the decisiveness of the rules, but also see issues with each company. Wyrd has distribution problems, Infinity's rulebook layout makes GW look good in comparison (the rules are still better, though...), and PP gets a bit of stink eye for some expensive ass models of their own. BUT each company still goes out of their way to talk to customers and make them feel apart of a community, so I feel like I'm getting a better value. And I no longer worry about what models I bring or what lists I build; I just play.
jonolikespie wrote: I started collecting Lord of the Rings models waaaaay back when they first came out but never really played, just painted (I was like 12 at the time). I eventually branched out and entered 40k as 5th edition hit. I even joined a club to get some actual games in.
Since I began 40k I had had half an eye on fantasy and bought into it as 8th hit 2 years later.
Fast forward another year, year and a half years and the club had dwindled down to about 6 regulars. One of those regulars played blood angels (at the time a top teir army) with the typical netlist of the day. My fluffy armoured company couldn't do anything to beat that list and I quickly got sick of playing him. Fantasy took over more and more as my primary game. By the tail end of 6th I had stopped playing 40k, mostly due to the rules. The prices hurt too but it was the rules that did it.
I never actually stopped and considered that I had quit, I just waved it off as focusing on fantasy. I was fully prepared to jump back in when I heard 6th was coming. Then I played an introduction game of 6th and realized I was done.
I have now found the same thing has happened with fantasy in the last year, dystopian wars took its place as my main game, and I played fantasy less and less until I had a choice between a fantasy and dyst wars tournament on the same day. I went in for dyst wars and realized I had left fantasy behind too.
So thats how it went for me, not with a bang but with a fizzle. I found games with better rules, the same or better models at better prices and I just stopped caring. I play a lot more than just dyst wars now and I do still buy GW products to paint occasionally, but they used to get 100% of my hobby dollar, maybe $1,000 a year. Now that I work full time they have gotten all of $200 or so off me since the start of the years while I have spent well over $4,000 in the same time frame on the wider hobby.
The wargaming crowd at my FLGS has been dwindling for a while due to schedule conflicts, people moving away, and general apathy. 40k has been taking a rather large hit for casual nights but we've still been able to pack the store for tournaments and Apoc games. A couple of people have jumped over to Fantasy including myself which is much more balanced overall than 40k. I, for one, also enjoy the fresh setting (for me anyways) since I've grown weary of the "Grimdark" story in 40k among other things (every time I see someone on the internet type "HERESY!" anymore, I just say to myself "feth you"). At the same time, the Fantasy army I do play is Warriors of Chaos and I've been enjoying their background and how much more badass they are than the Chaos Space Marines. That they're considered one of the best armies in the game right now doesn't hurt either, especially when I look at certain 40k thread on here with people saying "GW doesn't care about Chaos" without specifying CSM. WOC are having a great time!
Even so though, MTG is what's keeping the store alive and I end up playing more games of EDH than anything which almost everyone in the store is prepared to play at almost any time. I probably spend more money now on cool or interesting cards for my four decks than anything else hobby related. Since EDH is a casual format anyways, people are usually quite cool with siding out cards other decks can't handle, but otherwise the shenanigans that go on are hilarious some times like seeing how many other players can take control of one guy's Sliver Overlord.
Reasons for leaving in rough order: Poor rule writing (balance, clunkiness), no attempts to listen or improve, business model change, pricing, regional pricing, lawsuits. When I say leaving, I mean no longer playing the tabletop game, I still plan to immerse myself in the fluff and continue modeling whilst giving as little money to GW as possible. Thankfully you don't need to buy any of the books to read them, and models can be obtained very cheaply if you know where and how to look. My entire gaming group has stopped with 40k, I'm the only one that hasn't and won't be selling up since I initially got into the hobby for modeling rather than gaming. I'm a PC Gamer through and through and on that note, I really love Dawn of War 1 and 2 and Space Marine and really hope more good PC games come out. I started at the tail of 5th.
Currently playing: Dreadball. Planning to play: Deadzone, X-Wing, Dropzone Commander.
I fething love Dreadball. Quick games with ample strategic depth. Lots of teams and - importantly - a rapidly expanding universe with 3 game systems set in it. I hope that one day it will rival 40k in scope. It will be less cheesy and grimdark, but more realistic and hopefully with less "GW-ness". I fell in love after seeing what Mantic had done after the Deadzone KS and immediately bought everythign available, then went in for the Dreadball Extreme kickstarter which I'm really looking forward to, probably spent almost $1K on it including the DBX KS. If you can't justify owning every team, what *can* you justify? ; p
Deadzone, like Dreadball is also set in the Warpath universe and is a skirmish scale game with fast rules that don't lack depth. It's a great system with great support and ample room to expand. I backed the KS (over $1K) so have all the models and terrain, I've cleaned all the restic (my GOD!) and just have to paint it now. 6 large armies and a boat load of terrain with a lot of individual characters.
Dropzone Commander is a different scale and I love the concept and from what I've seen of it, it looks really fun to play with a nice different gameplay style.
Videos: Dreadball Academy: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Ultimate. Beasts of War series intrroducing Dreadball, great videos highly recommended, as is the game. Deadzone: gameplay, terrain, unboxing. Beasts of War again. Love these guys! ; ) Dropzone Commander: part 1, part 2, starter set unboxing.
I'm still interested in their products, I still check the website almost daily, and I still have money to spend, but whenever I see something I like, the price is what always ALWAYS puts me off. And not in the "Hmmm, maybe later" kinda way, it's more of a "Woah! They can go feth themselves!" kinda put-me-off.
I tend to look at my money, look at what I can get for it, and I just conclude that I'd rather spend it on something that doesn't make me feel like I got raped.
Can't say I've bought even a pot of paint from GW since about 2011.
Instead of GW I've mainly moved over to playing miniature board games. Things like Zombicide, Super Dungeon Explore and Fantasy Flight games.
I find those games more rewarding because you can play them with anyone, or with a whole group of people. And they don't need to have their own miniatures with them, or a deep prior knowledge of the rules. You just get out the box, and start having fun.
I think you also get much more variety in terms of painting. I thought I would miss my Space Marines, but I find the weird proportions kind of ugly now after looking at other miniatures for so long. I still have a lot of 40k stuff, so I might drift back and forth, but I can't see me buying anything new unless prices come down.
I'm sure I'm missing some, but I'll write a prioritized list:
1. Recognizing the company for what it was through its own employees. I actually started playing again after about 10 years away from 40k when a GW store was opened literally 2 miles from my house. Having fond memories of 40k and always regretting not getting to go back to it, I got my friends to split AOBR and we were off and rolling. However, after about 5 years, I can vividly remember 5 distinct "managers" and watching all of their systematic progression from enthusiastic new employee, to potent salesman, to demoralized, management hating defeatist. What struck me was these guys were all pretty intelligent, reasonably dedicated people who should have been successful if they weren't set up for failure with unrealistic demands; particularly the demand of trying to build and support a community on the one man store model.
2. Lack of Balance. I have a friend who played Blood Angels. His army kicked ass for a little bit. Then my friend who played Tau got a new codex. I could custom-build a Tyranid, Guard, or Dark Angels army to play his and generally struggle to squeeze out a draw while he just face rolled himself across the board with non-overheating plasma suits, movement during the assault phase, vehicles getting invulnerable saves for a couple points, Skyfire for a song, marker lights, etc, etc. It was absolutely insane to see how flexible and insanely good his codex was while we struggled with trying to squeeze every last optimized build out of ours to compete. And guess what? It's not really that much fun to get your ass kicked, or kick the crap out of your opponent without even trying. We figured out Rock/Paper/Scissors had better balance than Blood Angels/Tyranids/Tau.
3. The garbage Chaos Space Marine Codex. What a piece of junk, really. I waited YEARS for that codex, the one that would make my really great set of models of ultimate bad guys viable and caught up with the game, and I got.... Heldrake, Plague Marines, Cultists/Zombies and Obliterators. Khorne Berserkers? No way to get into combat. Chaos Terminators? No more avoiding scatter. No matter what I tried, I could not get beyond the most efficient (and perhaps the only viable) build in the whole codex being Nurgle-themed Heldrake/Cultists/Oblits. What a letdown that was. My Chaos army was absolutely gorgeous, but god forbid I wanted to play a Khorne-themed army and not get wiped off the table in 3 turns. Seriously... who the hell play tested this and thought it would be fun?
4. Value. I say value referring to the ratio of price to quality. With the obvious exception of a hobby knife, which the Lowe's across the street sells for literally $2.99, the first thing I jumped off the bandwagon for was primer. I'm not stupid. I refuse to pay $18 for a can of spray paint when a can of auto primer is $3, and I can literally hold up two fully painted versions of the same model and you couldn't tell me which one I used which primer on.
5. Finecast. I don't like working with pewter, but after about a year, I simply refused to buy any more Finecast because of quality issues.
That being said, here's a few things I actually like:
The New Codices: I never had a problem paying a lot for books. I actually really liked the new full colored codices. I've always enjoyed reading gaming rulebooks. I actually like the layout of the new Ork codex from the pics I've seen.
The New Release Rate: I like the fact that things seem to be flying out at a crazy rate, and I'm glad GW seems to have recognized that their previous model was WAY too slow. That being said, I'd like to see them invest in a bit more quality control and game design to improve balance and rules wording.
Apocalypse: I honestly don't know that I mind having Lords of War in a regular-sized game, but I do know the most fun I ever had playing 40k was a giant Apocalypse game I organized. What a mess. A fun, insane, crowded mess.
The Paint Line:I hate mixing paint, and I kind of like collecting all of the tons of different colors anyways, so the paint line never bothered me. I know a lot of people feel like it's overpriced, and I don't like some of the goofy technical paints, but overall I like the citadel paint line and will continue to use it with Warmachine and Bolt Action and whatever else I play going forward.
I play 5th ed 40k at home with my old Ork codex, as well as Necromunda, 1st ed space hulk and once in a great while Blood Bowl or BFG.
Some of the older GW stuff is good. The newer stuff by and large leaves me cold. I'll give 7th a try, with the new codex, and if it doesn't do it for me i'll keep playing the older stuff.
I am always willing to try a new system or two though. Not tried Infinity yet, though it's on the cards...
I stopped with GW largely due to prices and them rehashing the rules that left me behind. I don't want to constantly but new rules and codecies to use the same figures. I started with RT and 2nd edition, everything beyond that has been inferior IMO. Also GW have pushed bigger and bigger armies, I don't have the time or finances to commit to such large numbers of figures simply because they are writing the rules to do this. I don't even like playing with so many figures. All my favourite small scale games, like Necromunda and Gorkamorka, have been abandoned.
I'm currently interested in Flames of War and the Batman miniatures game.
I also play mtg because, like board games, there's no need for painting for which I have limited time. There's a large group here and it's a guaranteed Friday night out, no fuss. Some people say mtg is expensive (it is if you simply net-list and then buy all the cards from dealers, durr), but having a whole night out drafting on £10 and getting a pile of cards is much better value than going to the pub or whatever else I'd probably find myself doing. GW doesn't offer anything comparable.
I started collecting Lord of the Rings models waaaaay back when they first came out but never really played, just painted (I was like 12 at the time). I eventually branched out and entered 40k as 5th edition hit. I even joined a club to get some actual games in.
Since I began 40k I had had half an eye on fantasy and bought into it as 8th hit 2 years later.
Fast forward another year, year and a half years and the club had dwindled down to about 6 regulars. One of those regulars played blood angels (at the time a top teir army) with the typical netlist of the day. My fluffy armoured company couldn't do anything to beat that list and I quickly got sick of playing him. Fantasy took over more and more as my primary game. By the tail end of 6th I had stopped playing 40k, mostly due to the rules. The prices hurt too but it was the rules that did it.
I never actually stopped and considered that I had quit, I just waved it off as focusing on fantasy. I was fully prepared to jump back in when I heard 6th was coming. Then I played an introduction game of 6th and realized I was done.
I have now found the same thing has happened with fantasy in the last year, dystopian wars took its place as my main game, and I played fantasy less and less until I had a choice between a fantasy and dyst wars tournament on the same day. I went in for dyst wars and realized I had left fantasy behind too.
So thats how it went for me, not with a bang but with a fizzle. I found games with better rules, the same or better models at better prices and I just stopped caring. I play a lot more than just dyst wars now and I do still buy GW products to paint occasionally, but they used to get 100% of my hobby dollar, maybe $1,000 a year. Now that I work full time they have gotten all of $200 or so off me since the start of the years while I have spent well over $4,000 in the same time frame on the wider hobby.
Why did you choose Dystopian Wars?
Well my friend got 4 of us together and showed us the deal on Spartan Games' site where you could buy any 4 starters at a good discount. I had played a little battlefleet gothic in the past and enjoyed it so I figured it was worth a try.
It was slow in the beginning, a couple of guys lost interest. Then after like a year me and my mate dusted our models off, found we hase missed a ton of new releases and dived back in. Our forces grew very quickly after that.
Interest began to waver again as the same problems that ruined 40k, namely poor balance and unclear rules, became obvious again but then 2.0 was announced. It seems to have fixed the vast majority of problems we had with the game and now as I type this there is a 14 foot table occupying my friend's living and dining rooms with 10,000 points a side waiting for us to find time to finish.
It was a rocky start looking back on it but were I keep seeing GW make the same mistake Spartan have learned from every misstep and keep pulling me back in every time my interest wavers.
Ever since I started 40k, the lack of tight rules bothered me. I was in a forum reading about Shrike (5th Ed) because I wanted to make an army surrounding him, and there was a debate about RAI and RAW and why Shrike can't use his first turn assault if we're tlaking RAW. I'm like, shouldn't be RAI and RAW one and the same. But my friends play it so what the hell.
Then I get to encounter the imbalance, the long wait when it's not your turn, some FLGS drama (along the lines of "Just have fun! Don't try to be too competitive." But I find fun in playing competitively. Ugh.), and I just stopped before 6th hit. When 6th hit I saw the price increases and Finecast (my friend bought me a box for my birthday) and how terrible it is.
I switched to Infinity. Tight rules, better models, better company. Although I still crave for mass-ish battles, so I'm also looking at Kings of War. Haven't played a game yet because no one plays it here so I'm starting two armies so I can let a friend borrow one.
This feels like some sort of AA meeting. I will stand up in the circle..
I won't say left, but I don't play the current games and haven't bought anything in a while bar the odd pot of paint.
Rather than it being one important reason, it's been more like a gradual wearing down of my defences, to the point where all enthusiasm for anything with GW written on the side of it has been squeezed out of me(!)
- Rest of World embargo - One from the 'summer of terror' from a few years ago. I used to live in a country with no GW, no local stock-ists (well, one, but it was an 8-hour round trip) I used to order all of my stuff overseas from Wayland, Maelstrom and others. New Orc and Goblin WFB army planned, several hundred £, I received an email from said shop "sorry we can't process your order". I phoned up, a few laughs of disbelief and comments of "how on earth is that legal?!" followed. End result, it forced me into looking at other games. I had played Flames of War previously, dabbled with War Machine, but this was the first time I had jumped into other games wholesale.
GW has aimed its releases at a younger audience, while I have got older. - This isn't a criticism of the product in objective terms as such, more a recognition. The gritty realism and sci-fi grimdark appealed to me when I was 10-11 years old, at the tale end of 1st edition. It appealed because it wasn't aimed at kids, and I think a lot of kids like that! It was distinctly adult. I must be honest, a lot of the new (especially 40k) releases wouldn't look out of place on the shelves of Toys'r'us, firing plastic missiles and with sound effects. The aesthetic is now designed to appeal to children, the universe has become more comic-book and mock grim-faced, square-jawed hollywood.
Burn out - Perhaps you can only do so much of something? I think most people are the same with music or video games - you don't listen to the same CD for years after years, or play the same game endlessly do you? After disgorging 10,000 marines from rhinos it gets tired. There aren't the other 'specialist' games out there from the company to keep things fresh, and really now the name itself 'Games Workshop' has become something of an ironic joke.
Principled buyer - Again, this is very much a personal thing, and will affect some people more than others. The constant price rises, the switch to a crappy material while increasing prices again (while making out it's the best thing ever), the canning of anything that doesn't have a large profit margin, the reduction to 1-man stores, the legal bullying of other, smaller, companies, the war on fan sites, and complete shut down on forms of communication with your customers. Having worked at the company you hear some pretty damning stuff - in short, I think the upper management have a major contempt thing going for their customers, the word 'sheep' coming up quite often, and it's so obvious as to be practically dripping from everything they do. Great if none of this stuff bothers you and you just want to paint some marines, but I don't want to support a company that behaves in such a fashion and all of it combined has been a massive buzz-kill for me.
Would love for GW to return to the company I knew of old, but for now I don't think that's a very likely proposition. Fortunately, we're not in a closed market economy, and there are plenty of other companies out there to give the player their wargaming fix.
I started from 1989, i am foremost a collector, Although i played a lot of games, but i never was a purist, played Warzone, Stalingrad, Chronopia, besides 40k i played BFG, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, WHFRP and Inquisitor. Dabbled in first edition Hordes and Warmachine, now i started a Russian Bolt action Army and Russian Dust warfare/tactics army. And i am thinking of Infinity.
The thing that killed it for me are the GW prices, when i started with GW i was still in school and could afford it with side jobs, but the prices has gone through the roof. I have a job get enough money to spend on my hobbies, but these prices are an insult to their customers. (Oh, and killing off BFG and Necromunda was also a smart move (hello X-wing and Deadzone)
After returning to tabletop gaming in my mid 20's I started to see GW are more of a cynical cash generating machine; the character I remember was fading, all the names that made the game I played (2nd Ed) had moved on, and they were suing everything that moved.
I only got back into the hobby after discovering Warlord, and bought a couple of ancients armies to paint, then my friend suggested we did out our old 40K, so we did and played that for a while, him using more or less stuff he already owned, and I built up my collection using eBay as compared to Warlord the prices were just too high for what you get.
Eventually I started feeling dissatisfied with 40K; there wasn't much strategy to it and games were often a foregone conclusion. I started looking at other games (like X-Wing and FoW) and quickly realised that there are much better games out there, so my 40K stuff has largely been shelved whilst I play other games (Malifaux, X-Wing, FoW). I've still got a core of about 3000pts of my IG army, and a substantial Dwarf army, but now I don't have any of the current edition books (rules or army books) and haven't had a game with either for the best part of a year.
When I started visiting my local club I really only played 40K (I collected allsorts though) and it was the common demoninator; everyone had a 40K army. But again I realised that most people played something else, so when I started getting into other games they became the arranged game of choice which I prefer (less stuff to bring, quicker set up, quicker play).
I probably won't get rid of all of my GW stuff, I'll trim it back a bit further though, but it's no longer my game of choice and I don't really feel the need to try and keep up. I can't say I've been tempted enough by any of my armies new releases to pay the asking prices either.
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That being said, here's a few things I actually like:
The New Codices: I never had a problem paying a lot for books. I actually really liked the new full colored codices. I've always enjoyed reading gaming rulebooks. I actually like the layout of the new Ork codex from the pics I've seen.
The New Release Rate: I like the fact that things seem to be flying out at a crazy rate, and I'm glad GW seems to have recognized that their previous model was WAY too slow. That being said, I'd like to see them invest in a bit more quality control and game design to improve balance and rules wording.
Apocalypse: I honestly don't know that I mind having Lords of War in a regular-sized game, but I do know the most fun I ever had playing 40k was a giant Apocalypse game I organized. What a mess. A fun, insane, crowded mess.
The Paint Line:I hate mixing paint, and I kind of like collecting all of the tons of different colors anyways, so the paint line never bothered me. I know a lot of people feel like it's overpriced, and I don't like some of the goofy technical paints, but overall I like the citadel paint line and will continue to use it with Warmachine and Bolt Action and whatever else I play going forward.
Some interesting points there.
Nex Codex Design: Personally I dislike the new codexes just because of price. To me, £30 for a codex that used to be £15 is not justifiable just because it has hard covers and colour pics. For some years I have advocated GW to adopt a publishing model of a high end codex/rule book and a stripped down budget version for people who just want the rules. They kind of moved towards that with the new 7th edition three volume set, but unfortunately have not released the rules only book which is what I want.
New Release Rate: Totally agree. We all want our armies updated in good time within the life of an edition of the rules. But we want them updated carefully and with balance.
Apocalypse: Another point I agree with. I don't like Apocalypse myself but I think it is a fun option for the game. It should have remained an option. The inclusion of Apocalypse units in the standard game was a mistake.d
Paints: GW offer their own premium paint line. Equally good paints can be bought elsewhere. There is good choice and you don't have to useGW paints for GW games. The ideal situation IMO.
Back on topic, as a senior wargamer who started before GW was set up, I have always regarded them as just one option in an increasingly rich landscape of possibilities.
GW have in the past few years put a lot of stuff into 40K that is detrimental to my interests, such as Escalation, Allies and Flyers. That sort of stuff of course can be ignored and ruled out. The basic reason I have moved away from 40K is pricing. I do not find the value for money in the modern priced books.
For a lot of players though, GW was their entry into wargames and for some, their only participation. Moving on to new games is good in one way, since the hobby is vast and offers all sorts of fun. In another way it is bad, if it means that GW are driving people away.
It is very interesting to hear what core GW players have to say, since if GW are beginning to fail to retain their core fans, it may augur badly for recruitment in the future. That would have wide implications.
I started on my 40k path around 1996 when my friend had 2nd ed. 40k, played all the way up until 5th edition during that time I was also dabbling with the Mk1 version of Warmachine on the side, but not with that much frequency. It was like 90% 40k to 10% WMH.
Why I left.
Well, the most obvious one really was 6th (and 7th) was a steaming pile of gak excuse for rules. To tell the truth I left just before 6th when a change of staff pretty much drove me out of my local GW. It was a perfect storm of the previously mentioned "summer of terror", Finecrap, jobsworth staff that pretty much would not let you even be in the store if you were not buying anything, terrible rules and just general disillusionment.
Finecrap was released and this was just a slap in the face to everyone who cared about quality. Any doubt that GW was just squeezing their customers for every last penny was removed with Finecrap's release. I was utterly disgusted with it as a material and GW's sheer arrogance regarding the defects and the SELLING stuff for you, as a customer to fix them. I refused to buy it and still do. Finecrap has tainted GW's brand more than anything they've ever done IMO.
But still, I held out hope that 6th would actually be good as I still wanted to play as I had several as I had (and still have, but it is greatly diminished) several large armies and had several friends who still played and we could play round my house or at the local club*.
It was not to be, after playing more and more WMH in the meantime made me see what utter garbage 40k's rules were by comparison. I tried 6th, played a couple of games and just didn't like it. It was a game that did not know what it wanted to be. It was schizophrenic mix of skirmish rules in a company level (or above) game, whilst 5th had this issue to an extent, it was in no way the same as 6th with its rules for challenges and individual CCW rules for example.
What the internet said was true, you needed to play this with close friends and pickup games would become a nightmare due to differing game philosophies and the balance being so out of whack and GW's frankly hippy dippy style of rules writing.
I'm sure forgetting a lot of bits and bobs, but the above were the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.
*Interesting note, there was a certain individual who drove me (and several others) away from that club and nearly WMH due to certain things he did. Yes, this was a bit of a dark time for me.
What I went to
I went full bore into Warmahordes and I've never really looked back. Whilst I've seen that PP as a company has a fair few problems of its own from what I've seen on here and other places, they are in no way on the same magnitude as GW and none of them directly affect me as a customer, unlike several from GW. Well, apart from the one GW indirectly caused during the "summer of terror" with the mass exodus from GW causing stock shortages of PP products pretty much everywhere.
The game is far better, although it is a lot more "intense" (I do occasionally long for a more relaxed game that I can switch to from time to time. This was the purpose 40k served up until 6th) the rules are tighter and as a result it is far more enjoyable to play. I've never ever seen a rules argument that was not solved in a few minutes, unlike 40k, where I saw full bore shouting matches at the GW store and local club.
As others have said, although it can feel a little "mechanical" at times, it does not have the same feel as 40k (also in terms of the previously mentioned relaxation, after a game on monday me and my friend looked exhausted after playing and we both let out a sigh of relief after the game was over, yes it got to be quite "cranial" towards the end as practically the only models left were our casters) but diving into the background does remedy this (my next stop probably will be the RPG).
Now, we've got a new FLGS that has just opened up so I've got WMH models on my doorstep! (Yay!) Before, there was a few small pockets of players (with some I refused to play due to their attitudes, unfortunately the local TFG plays WMH so its not all unicorns and rainbows, but I digress) but now the dam has well and truly burst with a fairly substantial group now more or less established with new players coming in all the time. Give it a couple more months and everyone will be established with full armies and everything will be good.
Pacific wrote: This feels like some sort of AA meeting. I will stand up in the circle..
Hello, My name is Strombones and I am recovering from a decade long GW relationship. I haven't played 40k in a year. cue group applause
I will always love the Grimdark, but I just can't keep up with the prices. I'm not exaggerating by any measure. I can't afford GW plastics. Apart from Hero's Quest, 40k is the only tabletop game I've ever played for the last 17 years. I guess I just didn't realize what else was out there.
With the recent price hikes and rules debates, the 40k community here has all but dried up. Towards the end it was far more likely for a meeting of 40k to turn into a hate discussion than an actual game. People would meet but not even unpack their models.
Probably the most influential factor for me leaving was the price. Even though I cannot afford GW, I'm still going to continue gaming and buying plastic crack. I saw the Open Fire! Flames of War boxed set for around 60 bucks online and thought "there is absolutely no reason to NOT buy that". Although I don't really care for Battlefront's rules, they really make some beautiful infantry models. I based them individually with the intention of writing my own skirmish game and then found Battlegroup. Whereas I use to play a game of 40k maybe once a month, now I have a small group that plays 15mm Battlegroup weekly.
15mm Battlegroup is amazing. Not only do I love the rules but you can get rolling for $30.
I started playing 40K when RT first hit the shelves in 88 or 89. I had so much fun playing, especially 2nd edition. Then third edition hit. Between the uber generic rules and joining the Army and college I didn't get back into 40K until 6th. I really liked 6th, but there were many flaws. When GW switched to 7th and doubled down on those flaws AND wrecked the fluff and combined with their business practices burst the bubble for me.
I have since gotten into Warmachine and Infinity. Of the two, I'm more excited about Infinity but both are amazing games. I already have a 25pt Cryx army and a 300pt Ariadna army...both of which are almost fully painted. Next up is X Wing.
heartserenade wrote: Ever since I started 40k, the lack of tight rules bothered me. I was in a forum reading about Shrike (5th Ed) because I wanted to make an army surrounding him, and there was a debate about RAI and RAW and why Shrike can't use his first turn assault if we're tlaking RAW. I'm like, shouldn't be RAI and RAW one and the same. But my friends play it so what the hell.
Then I get to encounter the imbalance, the long wait when it's not your turn, some FLGS drama (along the lines of "Just have fun! Don't try to be too competitive." But I find fun in playing competitively. Ugh.), and I just stopped before 6th hit. When 6th hit I saw the price increases and Finecast (my friend bought me a box for my birthday) and how terrible it is.
I switched to Infinity. Tight rules, better models, better company. Although I still crave for mass-ish battles, so I'm also looking at Kings of War. Haven't played a game yet because no one plays it here so I'm starting two armies so I can let a friend borrow one.
Make sure that folks know that they can use their Warhammer armies for much of the game. It makes it a lot easier to bring folks into the game, or at least that proved the case for me.
I do not think that there are any 'Pure Mantic' armies in my local group - my Undead are close, but also have miniatures from Reaper, Avatars of War, Heresy, Grenadier (who doesn't want an undead war rhino?), and Raging Heroes. (The rank and file are almost pure Mantic, though.)
Dwarfs are in a similar position, including some war machines from Ral Partha.
And, best of all, it is possible to make it through entire tournaments without any rules arguments....
My only gripe is that characters are solo - no bodyguard. (And there is a fix for that in Iron Watch issue 1.)
I had played GW games from Rogue Trader days. I dabbled in 3rd edition WHFB and play all the Specialist Games. Now days I only play Specialist Games and haven't bought a GW product since 2012(?). I think my last game of 40K was a Planetstrike game. I mostly left beacuse they priced me out of the market and kept increasing the scope of the game for more and more models. When I could no longer manuever my army beacuse it couldn't fit in the deployment zone I was out.
Since then, I dabbled in a lot of other games. I could list them all out, but that would just be tedious. Ultimately I landed on the following go-to games that I play:
1. Force-on-Force/Tomorrow's War- Flexible and scenario based
2. Specialist Games- Many using a lot of Homebrew Modifications
3. Homebrew Games
I actually found it was really fun to just make the games I wanted to play myself. This has become a hobby in its own right and I have an unhealthy stack of rulebooks for games I don't intend to play, but I want to understand their mechanics.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Make sure that folks know that they can use their Warhammer armies for much of the game. It makes it a lot easier to bring folks into the game, or at least that proved the case for me.
Problem is no one plays WHFB here as well.
I don't actually mind. I'm also trying to learn how to paint in batches and speedpainting while maintaining the quality I want. I tend to concentrate a lot on one figure at a time and though the output is great for me most of the time, it's unfeasible if I want to finish armies.
I'm almost done with one unit of 20 halberdiers and 5 swordsmen, as well as 9 cavalry models for my Kingdoms of Men army. I'm starting to pick up on speed with painting.
Well I guess I am the opposite as been painting more GW stuff then ever only buying books until I finish all of the figures I have. (filling in with ebay, new figures or transports to complete the unit)
I have historical armies both sides for ACW,AWI, WWII, WWI german east Africa, Arab medieval armies, LOTR, ECW, French Revolution, French and Indian wars, wild west, dinosaur hunting, spies, malifuax,great rail wars and some I cannot remember.
Also have WWI airplanes.
tried Warmachines, ironclads, spaceships and just do not like the type of battles (just consider the warjacks land ships)
Just like the flexibility of GW and use all of their source material and the material from the above eras to create the games. No this is wrong or right as you can play it how you want.
but Just ordered my first unit from Victoria miniatures to add to my Imperial guard units. Need more variety.
Why I left GW (just in the last two months) permanently (everything from 22 years of GW collecting is gone as of yesterday thanks to ebay): Insane prices for sub-standard products, a game system that is a first-grade hack-job compared to almost all their competition, their desire to have everyone playing Epic at 28mm scale and a company that views people as nothing more than suckers to fleece.
What I have been playing: Infinity (quite a bit), Hell Dorado (fairly regularly), Dropzone Commander and Bolt Action (on occasion).
Why I choose the two regular games I play: Hell Dorado - This fulfills my fantasy fix and I was really attracted to the setting. The miniatures are cool and the game has some unique elements that make it a fun skirmish game.
Infinity - I really like this game. After coming from the GW camp, it takes a little while to get used to a game that doesn't rely on list building, a universe where guns are actually lethal, and a game that keep both players involved non-stop from the start to the end. I like the background of the game as well and how Corvus Belli is moving the story forward as the game progresses. In addition, the models, especially the newer sculpts being released, are just plain gorgeous.
It seems like most people that have left GW have done so for very similar reasons, and this has been building for a number of years with the company doing nothing about it.
Why I left GW:
I started playing WFB when I was 7, some 25 years ago. That meant big armies. With reasonably priced Battallions it was quite easy and affordable to do (just go and check out the original White Dwarf "Tale of Four Gamers" articles). With a set amount of money you could add a unit or two and a character to your army each month. So the main reason for me now is pricing, the £25 to £35 pricing for 10 man elite units is obscene and I could just not justify it anymore in spite of loving the setting and miniatures.
What I Went to:
First Mantic's KOW, a great ruleset and it is possible to get bucketloads of units for a great price. The rules and army lists are free and are built so that you can use proxies from almost any miniature line, this is also not frowned upon by most opponents. There even some armies without any official models yet so this is a necessity in some cases. I have not looked back. The game is quick, but has a great level of depth and tactical flexibility. A great game.
But I have also moved onto more skirmish level gaming in the form of Malifaux and Deadzone. Great intuitive rulesets and a growing community and support. malifaux is expensive, but for me they are they best miniatures out there and you only need 5-8 minis, a fate deck, the rules and you are set to go. All easily done for under £50, the price of an elite unit in GW's world that will get you nowhere. Deadzone is great too and has equally low startup costs.
Why I left GW: The constant dumbing down of their two main products was what ultimately led me to leave GW. I still have armies for almost all of their specialist games and a single WHFB army that I keep for nostalgia purposes and in the vain hope that GW finally sees the light and makes 9th edition a return to the golden age of 6th ed. WHFB. My last army of 40k was sold when 7th ed was released and the sheer amount of crap finally made me realise that there was no going back for that game.
What I have been playing: Warmahordes more regularly, Infinity and Malifaux a bit more sparsely. I also occasionally play Force on Force, Flames of War and X-Wing.
Why I choose the regular games I play: Warmahordes just scratches my tactical itch, this game has the best written rules set, bar none. Its just a pleasure to look back into a game and realise that it doesn't matter what the dice rolled, it doesn't matter what army you took, you can always pin point the exact decision that you made or that your opponent made that made you win or lose the game.
Infinity has gorgeous miniatures and fulfils my sci-fi quota of games. Malifaux has oodles of character and along with Infinity, provides endless truly cinematic moments that are just fun!
Why I left GW: Ever since getting the second edition boxed game for Christmas as a nipper, I was hooked. Games Workshop and their vision of the 41st millennium have been a part of my life for almost as long as I can remember. I loved the background, the stories, the art, the games...Space Hulk, Necromunda, Epic and of course, 40k. I missed out on 4th edition, but I jumped back in to 5th edition after deciding to up my modelling skills as well as play the games themselves. So I enjoyed building and playing with Imperial Guard, Space Marines & Orks. But things were not feeling the same. A box of twenty guardsmen had become ten. Prices climbed. Lawyers did questionable things in the shadows. Game balance became alarming wobbling. The atmosphere in stores became...odd. Less and less welcoming and less and less room and gaming time. Finecast. Fluff retcons. Then 6th edition hit. Nostalgia and familiarity ceased to be enough, so I decided to walk away. I have a few 40k modelling projects to finish off, but until things change within the fortress walls and moat, I am looking elsewhere for my gaming fix.
What I have been playing: Warmachine MKII has grabbed me and some of my friends. And we are having a brilliant time trying out the various factions. I am also looking into Infinity, Deadzone and a few other skirmish games. This really is becoming a golden age for choice when it comes to gaming!
Why I choose the regular games I play: Warmachine caught my eye with the style. Arcane, steampunk robots commanded by war wizards? Tell me more. The rules then surprised me by being pretty damn good. I like the majority of the models (though some are bloody awful to put together and keep together). The world is interesting, the background is growing on me and the game itself is quick and fun to play, and the smaller amount of models needed make it easy to start an army and get playing with it, without breaking the bank.
I'd been in the 40k hobby off and on since 2nd edition began, but I really I started leaving 40k when I started a club with a couple of guys that were all interested in playing small skirmish games. From then on (about 4 years ago) my 40k spending quickly fell to almost nothing until 7th edition arrived and I realized that I hadn't bought any new GW product in almost 2 years, and I wasn't about to spend $180 for a rulebook and 2 codices just to stay current with the rules.
What I went to instead was quite a few games, all of which the club also plays and which collectively I'm able to pursue for about the same cost as one 40k hobby. I buy whatever miniatures I like and use them in whatever rules I and the club enjoy most. For Fantasy gaming, I now play Song of Blades and Heroes (Mordhiem-size warband skirmish), Of Gods and mortals (LoTR SBG-size skirmish) and Kings of War. For 28mm Sci-Fi I play In The Emperor's Name, Tomorrow's War Warpath 1.0 and WarEngine. I've also been playing 10mm sci-fi with Mech Attack and Battletech's Alpha Strike. Though varied in style, mechanics, I find most of these rulesets to be streamlined (TW is a notable exception) and fast playing but still delivering a fun gaming experience, and all of them either have a unit creation mechanic or have enough stated units to cover virtually any unit I might wish to put put on the battlefield.
Put another way, I went to a style of gaming that for the most part leaves the selection and combination of miniatures, rules and background up to me. Compared to a prepackaged game experience, it does take a bit more work and more planning and cooperation with your opponents, but I've found the results to be very satisfying. I'm currently collecting, playing, building and painting as much or more than I ever did in my 40k era.
The other major aspect of my new gaming life is only playing with and against painted miniatures. For a variety of reasons, it is very difficult to play only against painted armies when gaming 40k/WHFB/WM. Myself and the club adore the spectacle of painted miniatures on great terrain and so we game accordingly. This is made much easier by the smaller scope of most of the games we play, but we maintain the same standards for our games of Kings of War . Regardless, after 4 years of painted only, when I look at a table now and see unpainted units (easily 60% of the 40k/WHFB/WM games I've observed in the past year) it just looks so unappealing that I can't summon up the interest to even want to play.
Put another way. I now feel that life's too short to play with unpainted miniatures.
How I got into it: I used to work at Blockbuster and I really hit it off with one of my customers. He came by all the time, started hanging out outside the store, and eventually I stumbled into a 40K game at his place between him and his brother. This was back in 2009, and I was instantly hooked. Loved 5th edition, played it every weekend with my buddies and had a great time. 6th edition hit and basically wiped out my gaming group. Half the guys I was playing with let it go. I didn't like a lot of the changes, but still played occasionally. Nowhere near my 5th ed playtime.
How I branched out: After 6th edition dropped, one of the guys in my group who was getting away from GW converted the rest of us to Warmachine. I liked the game at first, but absolutely hated the aesthetic. I eventually settled on Cygnar because they looked the least heinously ugly to me. I played it for over a year before finally realizing I just utterly despised the game.
During that time, I also let my huge obsession of WWII carry over to my tabletop and started playing Flames of War. Played that for a few months before I discovered Battlegroup, which is another historical ruleset and is now my favourite tabletop game. Oh yeah, X-Wing is also awesome. I play that on a regular basis as well. Also Infinity is great, I have about 10 guys for Ariadna. Haven't gotten to play much, but it's a solid game.
I'm not anti-40K now or anything like that, in fact I'm gonna be playing 40K this weekend with a friend of mine. It's definitely not the sole focus of my hobby anymore though, for which I'm grateful because there's so much good stuff out there now. All you have to do is look!
After reading this I've realised that there were 2 distinct turning points in my relationship with GW:
First was the closing of Maelstrom. Their various sales (regularly 30+% off) made GW pricing bearable when I got back into the hobby (I got the 6th Ed BRB for about £33, the Realm Of Battle board for £127). I can buy stuff for about 20% off now, but after another couple of price hikes it's just too much to justify.
Second was the Finecast thing. Buying the worst cast model I've ever seen and the staffer trying to sell me liquid green stuff when I brought it back; just no. Having 2 replacements checked by the customer service staff and send out whilst still miscast just shows how they viewed it. I gave up after 7 replacements and haven't bought finecast (or in fact anything else bar the occasional metal before they went OOP) since.
Have not stopped 40k yet but seeing a steady "drifting away".
X-wing = fun and immediate play.
Battletech: Played before 40k, come back and having fun again.
Robotech: Bought into that, anime stomping robots, see if Kickstarter pans out.
Just having fun, rules are great, at least feel balanced.
It just seems that people who want to "destroy" players with their carefully selected OP armies in 40k get stomped like anyone else in these other games (sometimes worse).
I LIKE Competitive, it just seems people looking for an ego boost are drawn to 40k and I find much more enjoyable tactical players in the other games.
FoW. Fantasy flight RPG's and a lot of boardgames like talisman and settlers of catan have been re-emerging.
Won't give reasons due to starting people moaning and thinking I hate GW due to me being somehow jumping on a bandwagon....ive played 40k since rogue trader and love the 40k universe but I find myself more and more not enjoying games as wraithknights, riptides, knights, screamerstar, necron nonsense make playing (for me) unfun.
I'm wish I never persuaded my gamer circle to abandon 2nd edition in 2012!
I like FoW because it's so simple, elegant and seems to have all the competitive aspects without all the nonsense plus the whole recreation of classic battles immersive element.
I love 40k. Just hate TFG. Which may be illogical. Can't help where the fun for me is at.
Why I left: The absolute disconnect between lore and gameplay, labyrinthine rules, and GW's attitude towards players.
When I saw what they did to the Ork army section of the new codex (ie, giant model photos and little else) I said screw this and have been listing everything online over the past few days.
Where I went: Infinity, which is absolutely fantastic. Tried out a few other games, such as Flames and Kings of War, but despite the quality of the former its just more IGOUGO and the latter I'm over giant model counts.
Looking at Malifaux and X Wing, which seem to be popular destinations for ex-40k players around here.
While I haven't left GW completely (I still play WHFB occasionally with my mantic elf army) I DID stop buying anything new off them.
- I prefer whfb to KoW.
I stopped playing 40k because I stopped liking the rules. I still have most of the models I had when I played (kept the GK and Eldar armies I had prior to 6th ed - kept the marine vehicles and most of the guard army, too) but they don't get used to play 40k and the eldar and GK stuff were originally bought because of how they looked not because of how they played on the table.
MY SF replacement game is Infinity. Well, one of them. The other is Tomorrow's War. My GW marines and guard models work fine in this game. They had no objections to not playing the rules they were meant for.
chromedog wrote: While I haven't left GW completely (I still play WHFB occasionally with my mantic elf army) I DID stop buying anything new off them.
- I prefer whfb to KoW.
I stopped playing 40k because I stopped liking the rules. I still have most of the models I had when I played (kept the GK and Eldar armies I had prior to 6th ed - kept the marine vehicles and most of the guard army, too) but they don't get used to play 40k and the eldar and GK stuff were originally bought because of how they looked not because of how they played on the table.
MY SF replacement game is Infinity. Well, one of them. The other is Tomorrow's War. My GW marines and guard models work fine in this game. They had no objections to not playing the rules they were meant for.
I hear they can even keep the same fluff if they want. I know, I know fluff NOT tied to a rule set, how could it be.
What are the main rivals to the main thing we like about 40k - the highly fleshed out setting? All I know of is Warpath which doesn't come close yet, but it's rapid expansion gives me hope. 3 gaming systems set inside it all fleshing out the setting in various ways are making it very immersive for me. For example, a new race is created for the Dreadball game (the insectoid Z'zor), and we start clamouring to have it as a faction in Deadzone and Warpath because it's an awesome concept. You also get cross polination in Deadzone missions where you have to protect Dreadball MVPs, and the more in depth Dreadball game inside a Deadzone game that's been bandied around where 2 players are playing Dreadball, 1 team is attacking (ie. rebels to make a political statement) and another is defending (ie. enforcers).
The Kings of War setting is slowly getting fleshed out, but no where near as rapidly as the Warpath one from what I can see. Warmahordes have a setting but it doesn't seem very deep to me yet and I'm not sure how quickly it's developing. Are there any others that are at a stage you get into yet? Other than Star Wars for x-wing ; p
edit: Speaking of Z'zor, I have a living, breathing oneIRL now! (2 weeks and going strong, found him in the yard)
Yonan wrote: What are the main rivals to the main thing we like about 40k - the highly fleshed out setting?
There isn't, IMO, and that's part of why I think a lot of people stay with 40k/WHFB (unless they're just masochists and think it's fine as long as they buy off eBay). KoW setting is still fairly generic, although I like it. Warpath's fluff is pretty lousy IMO, but the rules look good.
Have you kept up with the new fluff coming out with the Deadzone stuff? It's starting to get pretty in depth imo! But largely as I figured yeah, not much competition on the depth of setting front.
Yonan wrote: Have you kept up with the new fluff coming out with the Deadzone stuff? It's starting to get pretty in depth imo! But largely as I figured yeah, not much competition on the depth of setting front.
Honestly, I need to buy Deadzone. It looked really cool (like Necromunda).
Definitely look into it if you haven't, I linked some good videos for it on the previous page. They don't go over the fluff so much (though Beasts of War did do videos covering the factions too) but show the gameplay, box contents, terrain etc. I didn't play Mordheim or Necromunda but yeah, supposedly it's pretty much a great replacement for them.
I think Warmachine's fluff gets very in depth the more you look into it. The Iron Kingdoms RPG books has TONS of details and stories from the settings. I like it because it follows the flow and feel of history. (As a historian I like that.)
Yonan wrote: What are the main rivals to the main thing we like about 40k - the highly fleshed out setting? All I know of is Warpath which doesn't come close yet, but it's rapid expansion gives me hope.
Warpath isn't even close yet, but there are universes that do try. The one that definitely suprasses 40k is Battletech. The size of the battletech universe is smaller than the 40k universe, but the depth and detail puts 40k to shame. Like 40k, BT has alot of novels, but they also have an online fiction e-zine that's been going for almost a decade. Also, the game hasn't changed much, so nearly every sourcebook and expansion is still valid. Thus, rather than republishing fluff, the timeline continues forward with galaxy spanning arcs for characters, factions, etc. so each crop of new supplements add new information. Also, the depth to which the various cultures, armies, technologies, etc have been explained.
The giant stompy robot flavor isn't for everyone, but it's hard to deny that the setting is more fleshed out that Warhammer 40k.
Warmachine fluff is now being written by Larry Correia, New York Times best selling author and Hugo nominee (science fiction's most prestigious award). If you don't like Warmachine's fluff, read his story and then decide.
Past: I've been tabletop gaming for many years, and the main reason I got into it was the ability to create my own models. My main game was Heroclix and felt that the 'multiverse teamup' aspect was a fine system for importing characters I loved from other universes. Sadly, the game died at my venue, leaving me with nothing to do. A few of my friends were long time players of 40k and a few others joined in. I felt it was a great opportunity to hone my modeling skills and step up from a small scale skirmish game to large scale strategy.
Present: While the lore and technically superior models sharpened my artisan skills, the game itself strait-jacketed my imagination. If I wanted to play a model of Patton, in clix, no prob. In 40k, I'd have to find a grand and 6 months time and effort to build a new army. (He doesn't exactly fit in with orks or Slaanesh.) Speaking of the good General, I think he would fail miserably at a game which rewards cheese combos over tactical thinking. Still I enjoyed it as much as I could. Then GW went from greedy to desperate. 7th killed off a large chunk of the player base here. The evisceration of models from Guard left a bad taste in my mouth. Finally the ork codex proved to me that nobody at GW gave a tinker's damn. Should I play 40k for the models I can't afford, the story that never progresses, or the lovecraftianly tangled rules? Feh.
Future: Long story short, I'm selling the majority of my stuff, only keeping my personally built non-GW models for possible games in the hopefully less grim derp future. In the mean time I'm delving into the gorgeous models of Malifaux, the tight rules of Warmahordes, the X-Wing games with their large player base, and the inexpensive fast paced and addictively cerebral gameplay of Dice Masters.
Why I left: 6th ed was basically a hundred little nerfs/randomizations that wrecked my Wyche Cult/Homunculi Coven Dark Eldar and Tyranids. While I considered going straight Kabal, prices had escalated to the point that I wasn't very interested. I also didn't really have any way to deal with flyers (which several of my regular opponents loved). Since then, nothing has really caught my interest enough to get me back into it. While I still enjoy Fantasy, the general apathy around that game makes it too hard to find an opponent.
What I play now: X-wing and Magic mostly (those are the easiest to find/make opponents for). Warmachine and Infinity when I find opponents, but opponents are harder to find (as the only non -GW store is a bit of an expedition to get to).
If the fluff talk isn't derailing (it's the main reason people like 40k, but if it is I'll stop/remove it):
I've known about battletech since mechwarrior 2 on the PC and I do like my giant stompy robots, but I didn't realize it had much of an expanded universe though I know it's had a number of PC games and the tabletop game(s). I shall look into it!
I'll check that warmachine book Musashi, but it's not so much the quality as the quantity of it that I was referring to. There's just so much of it for 40k, 10k years of it with 2 periods heavily fleshed out.
I'm really hanging out for the Deadzone books coming with Wave 2 for the fluff to try to immerse myself in the Warpath universe. I think that'll help motivate me to paint my Deadzone armies up and probably con me into starting Warpath when they launch the Kickstarter for it. It's *that* important to me hehe.
Yonan wrote: If the fluff talk isn't derailing (it's the main reason people like 40k, but if it is I'll stop/remove it):
I've known about battletech since mechwarrior 2 on the PC and I do like my giant stompy robots, but I didn't realize it had much of an expanded universe though I know it's had a number of PC games and the tabletop game(s). I shall look into it!
Cool.
Also, note that even though alot of folks aren't' fond of the classic Battletech "board" game, there is now an "Alpha Strike" ruleset in the same universe that is a faster playing game, on 3d terrain (instead of hexes) with streamlined rules and more units. It's not a tournament-ready set of rules, as it has the same kind of balance issues as the original game. However, it's a fun game and definitely captures the feel of the BT universe.
It can be a hard universe to get into as it has been built over 30 years and has advanced about 150 years or so in game years (though there are "historical" sourcebooks that also go hundreds of years into the "Past") so there are different era's in the history and I think that over 100 game books (not counting novels) have been published. You can read more about the universe here:
http://bg.battletech.com The new-to tab has good information for the beginner, and the clearinghouse for all info BT is the Sarna.net wiki
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page Any BT term you hear likely has an entry.
Enjoy and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
I'm a D&D trueblood who picked up 40K as a sideline. One of my friends brought over the Rogue Trader rules and I played off and on until 2nd edition - primarily as Space Marines. After having my eyes beat out several times by chaos armies, I dropped the game, though I still collected some of the miniatures - mainly whatever vehicles I could get my hands on, such as the Armorcast Baneblade & Shadowsword. At one point, I picked up an Eldar Army for my brother's use. He never did - I think he got burned out on 40K as well.
When Tau were released (I think in 4E?), I picked up an army with the intention to play, and it's the only army I have that's fully painted. Never did to play though, was too busy with D&D - until 4E D&D. When Necrons were recently redone at the end of 5th, I picked that army up. By that time, I had a 10-year-old son, and to my horror, he wanted a CSM army - but I think to my credit, I still got one for him. I actually started playing and collecting the latest codexes and armies - figured I'd have a good five years before the game rolled over to the next edition. I put together a partial Orc army, a full Tyranid army, a full Necron army, expanded my Tau and painted the Eldar, gathered a mechanized Imperial Guard army (replete with a Knight) and enlarged my Space Marines Chapter to two companies worth of figures and vehicles (and Grey Knight allies to face those pesky daemons). Then 7th came along and I said f* it, I've got what I want, don't need more.
So, been playing some 6E 40K, but also picked up X-wing & Attack Wing, Bolt Action and Flames of War. Right now I'm sort of floundering, trying to decide what game I really want to run with.
After waffling for a few months now, I decided to sell all my 40k and my Fantasy. I will be keeping a small pile that will be my "I want to paint 40k" pile and if GW someday makes Blood Angels (and the game) good again, I'll jump back in with both feet.
Until then, who want's to cheat fate, play like they have a pair, or trigger some AROs?
Well, the games bored me. I didn't start tabletop gaming with GW games ( I started with Chainmail, the old TSR game), and I won't end tabletop gaming with GW. It was a phase. There were some fun times. But, the game grew stale and into such a production with all the minis on the table, and so much dice rolling. There were greener pastures elsewhere. So I went. Malifaux 1e, then Infinity, along with plenty of board games and LCGs. There are so many fun and interesting games out there that it seems almost criminal to restrict oneself to just one game. So I don't.
Yonan wrote: What are the main rivals to the main thing we like about 40k - the highly fleshed out setting?
Warmahordes have a setting but it doesn't seem very deep to me yet and I'm not sure how quickly it's developing.
Hi Yonan,
The simple fact is that you have not looked hard enough Yonan. Warmachine has a fantastic setting, and it has been developing for quite a long time now. Did you know it originally started off as a D20RPG setting using the DnD 3.5 OSL rules? this was back when the Witchfire Trilogy was their first outing. And that was well over ten years ago now, and the fluff has been constantly developed.
I’ll be honest. I’’m always that bit disappointed and annoyed when people post that the setting isn’t very deep, or hasn’t developed. Such as what you have said. I understand you are probably saying it more from lack of familiarity as much as anything else, but nonetheless you are perpetuating a falsehood, and it really does grind my gears that people continue to do it. the fluff? its there. its simply not true to suggest what you are suggesting. And I can back my statements up. Firstly, you have not only the fiction, and short stories in the various rules books, FOW books and expansions. I have to give a shout out to the Retiribution FOW book in particular –its fantastic, and really brings the race to life. you have frequent short stories and novella published throughout the No Quarter magazine. Ever wonder what made magnus such a ruthless character? its there. Did you wonder what happened to kallus at the end of Domination when he was “captured” by the skorne? read up on it, and you’ll see him exploring the ruins of a dragon worshipping elven conclave. The end of Apotheosis is in the NQ magazine too. Plenty other small bits of fiction too. And not just fiction. Read the Gavyn Kyle files and the Guts and Gears articles which go into rather exhaustive detail expanding on the characters, histories and deeds of the various named characters and other peoples that inhabit the setting. Guts n Gears goes into great detail about actual unit types, like doom reavers, or long riders, and their background and histories. The magazine itself is fantastic, and regularly provides other content for the RPG as well.
Look beyond what is a pblished rag. check out the Skull Island Expedition novels. Some of them are creaxking good reads, and genuine page turners. Into the Storm, Extraordinary Zoology, and the Warcaster Chronicles are top of the list. brilliant, fun reads. Really bring the world to life.
And beyond this. Look at the RPG material. I have all of it. Going back to the D20 material. I have it specifically for the fluff. And what fluff there is! Its amazing. its not just stories of battles, and who won where and when. It explores the setting, the entertainment, crimes and punishment, trade, education, cosmology, government, described the towns, cities, famous persons and locations. its old now but the D20 character guide and world guide are fantastic. the latter is over 400 pages of detail describing 4,000 years of history, as well as the cultures and mores of all the factions. Look at the Monsternomicons- the second one has a huge piece on the Skorne Empire and all its houses, and history as well as great details on the various monsters and races that inhabit immoren. the RPG material has been revamped into a proprietary system that runs very well alongside the wargame (and both share a lot of the same ‘DNA’). have a look through the IKRPG sourcebooks if you get a chance. the core rules, five fingers: port of deceit, and kings, nations and gods are all fantastic sources. Upcoming is the iron kingdoms: unleased book which will cover all the wilderness areas, and bring in the tharn, farrow, pygs and other races. Believe me when I say the setting is developed. It’s a living, breathing, well thought out, and believable setting. Its not grimdark. It is gritty. It is violent. And harsh. Its vivid, colourful, characterful, deep, endearing and enthralling. It’s a universe you can get lost in repeatedly, and enjoy every second of it. I dip my head into the books, and when I come up for air, I can taste the soot on the tip of my tongue, and smell the whiff of burning coal and oil.
So yes, you are wrong Yonan. Very wrong. the setting is both developed, continueally being developed and very, very deep and gripping. check it out. But don’t say what you’ve said – please. its simply wrong.
And as a final piece of note, go onto the PP forums and post a question, and the lead writer of the background material – Doug Seacat - will probably come to the rescue and discuss all the features himself and enlighten you. I cant imagine Jervis expanding on a particular war the Space Wolves fought in!
Yes! That exactly. I have the Iron Kingdoms books and the wealth of lore, setting and characters I think is deeper than 40k. It's not the same story copy and pasted edition to edition. It feels like a living world instead of a parody of one.
The simple fact is that you have not looked hard enough Yonan. Warmachine has a fantastic setting, and it has been developing for quite a long time now. Did you know it originally started off as a D20RPG setting using the DnD 3.5 OSL rules? this was back when the Witchfire Trilogy was their first outing. And that was well over ten years ago now, and the fluff has been constantly developed….
Spoiler:
I’ll be honest. I’’m always that bit disappointed and annoyed when people post that the setting isn’t very deep, or hasn’t developed. Such as what you have said. I understand you are probably saying it more from lack of familiarity as much as anything else, but nonetheless you are perpetuating a falsehood, and it really does grind my gears that people continue to do it. the fluff? its there. its simply not true to suggest what you are suggesting. And I can back my statements up. Firstly, you have not only the fiction, and short stories in the various rules books, FOW books and expansions. I have to give a shout out to the Retiribution FOW book in particular –its fantastic, and really brings the race to life. you have frequent short stories and novella published throughout the No Quarter magazine. Ever wonder what made magnus such a ruthless character? its there. Did you wonder what happened to kallus at the end of Domination when he was “captured” by the skorne? read up on it, and you’ll see him exploring the ruins of a dragon worshipping elven conclave. The end of Apotheosis is in the NQ magazine too. Plenty other small bits of fiction too. And not just fiction. Read the Gavyn Kyle files and the Guts and Gears articles which go into rather exhaustive detail expanding on the characters, histories and deeds of the various named characters and other peoples that inhabit the setting. Guts n Gears goes into great detail about actual unit types, like doom reavers, or long riders, and their background and histories. The magazine itself is fantastic, and regularly provides other content for the RPG as well.
Look beyond what is a pblished rag. check out the Skull Island Expedition novels. Some of them are creaxking good reads, and genuine page turners. Into the Storm, Extraordinary Zoology, and the Warcaster Chronicles are top of the list. brilliant, fun reads. Really bring the world to life.
And beyond this. Look at the RPG material. I have all of it. Going back to the D20 material. I have it specifically for the fluff. And what fluff there is! Its amazing. its not just stories of battles, and who won where and when. It explores the setting, the entertainment, crimes and punishment, trade, education, cosmology, government, described the towns, cities, famous persons and locations. its old now but the D20 character guide and world guide are fantastic. the latter is over 400 pages of detail describing 4,000 years of history, as well as the cultures and mores of all the factions. Look at the Monsternomicons- the second one has a huge piece on the Skorne Empire and all its houses, and history as well as great details on the various monsters and races that inhabit immoren. the RPG material has been revamped into a proprietary system that runs very well alongside the wargame (and both share a lot of the same ‘DNA’). have a look through the IKRPG sourcebooks if you get a chance. the core rules, five fingers: port of deceit, and kings, nations and gods are all fantastic sources. Upcoming is the iron kingdoms: unleased book which will cover all the wilderness areas, and bring in the tharn, farrow, pygs and other races. Believe me when I say the setting is developed. It’s a living, breathing, well thought out, and believable setting. Its not grimdark. It is gritty. It is violent. And harsh. Its vivid, colourful, characterful, deep, endearing and enthralling. It’s a universe you can get lost in repeatedly, and enjoy every second of it. I dip my head into the books, and when I come up for air, I can taste the soot on the tip of my tongue, and smell the whiff of burning coal and oil.
So yes, you are wrong Yonan. Very wrong. the setting is both developed, continueally being developed and very, very deep and gripping. check it out. But don’t say what you’ve said – please. its simply wrong.
And as a final piece of note, go onto the PP forums and post a question, and the lead writer of the background material – Doug Seacat - will probably come to the rescue and discuss all the features himself and enlighten you. I cant imagine Jervis expanding on a particular war the Space Wolves fought in
!
Thanks for posting that. I've heard from folks who enjoy WM background, but I didn't realize that the RPG goes back so far. Game universes with an RPG or RPG elements definitely tend to have better developed universes.
Thanks for posting that. I've heard from folks who enjoy WM background, but I didn't realize that the RPG goes back so far. Game universes with an RPG or RPG elements definitely tend to have better developed universes.
the RPG came first
apparently, they were making minis for the IKRPG,and came round to making their first warjack, which was a big hulk of a model. And so i heard, they realised if they wanted to either make a bit of money, or not have the jack sink the new company, they'd have to sell lots of them. best way to do that? as a wargame. you can see the differences in the "old" RPG based Iron kingdoms,which has a rather "romantic" twist (ie modern nation, aggressive, imperialistic nation, religious fanatic nation and undead malarkey) but was primarily an RPG sandbox - it was a traditional RPG setting undergoing an industrial revolution, with some twists. With the wargame as driver, they had to push the setting and the fluff to back the wargame, and have the world on a permanent war footing.
this one was printed in 2005 i think, but it orginally goes back to 2000 or 2001 when PP were formed. (my copy of the witchfire trilogy says 2001)
and for the eagle eyed amongst you,PP had the famous and much loved easter eggs in the legal terms and conditions even then! "Alexia can be quite protective of her copyrights, and you dont want to mess with Alexia" indeed.
The Warmachine world is very well developed - most people miss out on a lot of it though because...well, I am not sure. It isn't like PP has been hiding it exactly. If you look, you will find it easily enough.
For sci-fi, another well developed gaming world other than Warmachine and Battletech is Traveller. The RPG spanned 30+ years of development, with a hundred or so books and other supplements. Striker and Striker II are actually pretty good wargames based within the Traveller universe (written for 15mm...easily adapted to other scales). It is interesting in that you can take primitive armies fighting with bows and mounted on large animals and send them against advanced armies fighting with grav tanks and power armor.
Several books, a couple video games and most recently an attempt (still going on) to produce a pilot for a sci-fi TV show based within the Traveller universe.
There are plenty of non-gaming universes which lend themselves well to gaming too. Of course, official miniatures are more difficult to come by (which is fine...there is no shortage of "generic" sci-fi miniatures) and you will need to find a rules set to run them with (universal rules like Tomorrow's War and Defiance have never let me down though).
Slightly less developed would be universes like SpaceMaster from ICE. It was written for both RPG and table top wargames using cardboard counters (adaptable with little thought to miniatures...). The rules and background were developed over 10+ years, and like most RPG settings - there is a heck of a lot more background to it than what you find in a wargame rulebook.
Finally, there is the Kitchen Sink setting of Rifts. 40 some odd books, plus 50+ Rifter magazines comes out to 6000+ pages of RPG depth material. The setting lends itself well to wargames too, as there are plenty of factions organized enough to field armies against each other. Being a Kitchen Sink setting you have everything from psychics and magic to big stompy robots fighting dragons over the lost continent of Atlantis... There are plenty of issues...but if you want a developed setting that lets you be free to roam, it will certainly allow for that. No official wargame rules though, so you will need to use a universal system or adapt other rules to fit.
I'll be honest Deadnight, you came across as very condescending there - the only person in the thread to do so, you should probably check that. Not a conversation that I think will progress well so I'll leave it there.
edit: Sean, it does seem as though RPGs in general develop the setting a lot, I've known about traveller and Rifts for a long time - I only recently started tabletop wargaming, but I RPGed back during D&D through to 3.5 with other systems mixed in. I loved the depth of some of those settings like planescape, dark sun, forgotten realms - all of which you can sort of include as one setting I guess as travel is possible between them. Was hoping alternity would take off but sadly it died after a couple years. The fluff from the RPGs for 40k is some of the best I've found, really enjoyed reading through the Only War, Dark heresy, Deathwatch and Rogue Trader rulebooks.
Yonan wrote: I'll be honest Deadnight, you came across as very condescending there - the only person in the thread to do so, you should probably check that. Not a conversation that I think will progress well so I'll leave it there.
Tone is a hard thing to interpret when it comes to text. I can see when someone is pointing out that you are factually wrong, interpreting condescension is far more likely though.
The fluff from the RPGs for 40k is some of the best I've found, really enjoyed reading through the Only War, Dark heresy, Deathwatch and Rogue Trader rulebooks.
It's strange that the best material for the 40k universe is not put out by GW.
Yes...no one does the background for GW's universe like everyone other than GW...
Seriously, whether it is background books from BL or FW (yes...I know, technically GW - but out from under the thumb of the studio) as well as FFG with the RPG.
On the fantasy side - we have been using (as our core game system...we dabble with dozens of them) TSR's Battlesystem and playing through various D&D worlds (Forgotten Realms and Dark Sun mostly...with expeditionary forces doing planar raids to the Abyss). I just started sculpting a new Dark Sun inspired Elf army that I hope to have finished by Christmas (already have 4 different "armies" for Dark Sun...Thrikreen, Elves and Gith remaining to complete the core armies from the Dragon Kings book).
Battlesystem is actually a pretty solid set of rules for fantasy gaming - and they are flexible enough that you can pretty well put any sort of army together. Even 25 years after it was first printed, I find it better than a lot of newer fantasy games. We have adapted and refined the conversion/creation rules some to take advantage of a computers ability to manage complex calculations - but other than that, not much has changed for us with the game.
Eilif wrote: The one that definitely suprasses 40k is Battletech. The size of the battletech universe is smaller than the 40k universe, but the depth and detail puts 40k to shame. Like 40k, BT has alot of novels, but they also have an online fiction e-zine that's been going for almost a decade. Also, the game hasn't changed much, so nearly every sourcebook and expansion is still valid. Thus, rather than republishing fluff, the timeline continues forward with galaxy spanning arcs for characters, factions, etc. so each crop of new supplements add new information. Also, the depth to which the various cultures, armies, technologies, etc have been explained.
That's the core difference between BTech and 40K. 40K is a setting. It has specific story lines, and a time line that spans thousands of years, but it's so open that you can pretty much do anything anywhere and justify it. BattleTech is a history. Everything from every single planet name, the required jumps to go from one to another and even the names of CEO's of major companies is defined within the BTech world. You can't just do anything like you can in 40K because BTech is very rigid. That's not necessarily a bad thing mind you, but it is a major structural difference between the two.
Alright, to side step this and go onto my tale why left GW (kind of):
Part one: Beginnings:
Alright, so I did not start off my wargaming career in 40k. I played some card games back in the day like, most of which I played was three: Magic: the Gathering, .Hack//enemy and Anachronism, which was kind of my introduction to Tabletop wargaming of sorts. Most often this was done at a local store before they closed down after the owner died. Before he died though, he showed me Warmachine in the mki format and my friend showed me Warhammer 40k and Fantasy. I bought a few things to try both games, and when the owner died, I went to playing 40k more since I had a Games Workshop near me. However, I kept the Warmachine stuff on the side for no particular reason. Played since the ending of 4th and mostly 5th, and 5th I enjoyed the most despite its problems. I played 40k and fantasy for a bit since I had a group to play and I did not drive for the time and could go out to father places.
Part two: Leavings:
After 6th edition came out for 40k and 8th for Fantasy, as well as the price hikes at the time, I debated on staying in the games and in the hobby in general since I did not like the direction the games too, and to be frank, I felt it was sub-par quality for the price the rules where going for. After a few more games with it, I kind of got fed up with it and almost decided to quick the hobby all together. Then I remembered I had a few things for Warmachine for a starting faction, I just needed to get the mkii two card. Although the drive up to the store was longer than the one to GW, I went to meet with the local Press Ganger. Which goes into my next part....
Part three: Moving Forward:
Playing a demo game of Warmachine, I had a blast with it, almost more than any game of 40k and fantasy I have ever played in my opinion. I also checked out Infinity, which I have known about a bit and wanted to give a go but did not have the time and that. Now in this day and age, I play a varied amount of games, the Tabletop wargames being Warmahordes, Infinity, and Nercomunda with a possibility of starting Mordheim, Malifaux, and possibly Flames of War with my dad. Well, I did not truly leave GW I guess, since I do trade for parts with others here and play the games they sadly do not support anymore. I also do like the setting to 40k (despite some opinions I have on it) very much, but I have FFG to help me with that with their RPG's and new 40k LCG they are coming out with and want to give a try.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: Alright, to side step this and go onto my tale why left GW (kind of):
Part one: Beginnings:
Alright, so I did not start off my wargaming career in 40k. I played some card games back in the day like, most of which I played was three: Magic: the Gathering, .Hack//enemy and Anachronism, which was kind of my introduction to Tabletop wargaming of sorts. Most often this was done at a local store before they closed down after the owner died. Before he died though, he showed me Warmachine in the mki format and my friend showed me Warhammer 40k and Fantasy. I bought a few things to try both games, and when the owner died, I went to playing 40k more since I had a Games Workshop near me. However, I kept the Warmachine stuff on the side for no particular reason. Played since the ending of 4th and mostly 5th, and 5th I enjoyed the most despite its problems. I played 40k and fantasy for a bit since I had a group to play and I did not drive for the time and could go out to father places.
Part two: Leavings:
After 6th edition came out for 40k and 8th for Fantasy, as well as the price hikes at the time, I debated on staying in the games and in the hobby in general since I did not like the direction the games too, and to be frank, I felt it was sub-par quality for the price the rules where going for. After a few more games with it, I kind of got fed up with it and almost decided to quick the hobby all together. Then I remembered I had a few things for Warmachine for a starting faction, I just needed to get the mkii two card. Although the drive up to the store was longer than the one to GW, I went to meet with the local Press Ganger. Which goes into my next part....
Part three: Moving Forward:
Playing a demo game of Warmachine, I had a blast with it, almost more than any game of 40k and fantasy I have ever played in my opinion. I also checked out Infinity, which I have known about a bit and wanted to give a go but did not have the time and that. Now in this day and age, I play a varied amount of games, the Tabletop wargames being Warmahordes, Infinity, and Nercomunda with a possibility of starting Mordheim, Malifaux, and possibly Flames of War with my dad. Well, I did not truly leave GW I guess, since I do trade for parts with others here and play the games they sadly do not support anymore. I also do like the setting to 40k (despite some opinions I have on it) very much, but I have FFG to help me with that with their RPG's and new 40k LCG they are coming out with and want to give a try.
When I played my first game of Warmachine I fell in love. This was the strategy game I've been waiting for. It scratched my itch that 40k just couldn't do.
My problem with Warmachine is that i love to get into Warmachine: I like the setting and the fluff and the fact that the rules are tight and good for competitive play. It's just that the aesthetic of the models doesn't appeal to me.
Maybe I'm just tired of heroically-proportioned models. This is why I'm collecting Infinity and Perry WotR now for my KoW army.
heartserenade wrote: My problem with Warmachine is that i love to get into Warmachine: I like the setting and the fluff and the fact that the rules are tight and good for competitive play. It's just that the aesthetic of the models doesn't appeal to me.
I have the same issue I also dislike being forced to use special characters. I have a Cygnar army (all the infantry are proxied though) but I doubt it will ever see the table again.
I have been playing GW games since the early 90's although I never really was exclusively a GW gamer. Warhammer 8th completely killed any interest I had in WHFB and 7th killed my residual interest in 40k. I will happily play any of the specialist games although I haven't managed a game in years. I still like 40k's fluff but these days I get mine exclusively from FFG.
My reasons for walking away from the current core games are mostly rules based. Terrible rules+terrible balance=bad game.
Yonan wrote: I'll be honest Deadnight, you came across as very condescending there - the only person in the thread to do so, you should probably check that. Not a conversation that I think will progress well so I'll leave it there.
.
If I came across as condasdcending yonan, then I will apologise wholeheartedly, and honestly, it certainly was not my intention. Nor was it meant as anything personal. Internet, and tone and all that. Can we call it something that was lost in translation? It's just that what you said (without meaning to,I'm certain) was a commonly stated, and commonly repeated falsehood that I've seen crop up repeatedly. Think along the lines of someone saying 'balanced games are rubbish. All you get is homogenisation and boring similar lists' etc despite all the evidence. It'll grind your gears as much as mine. I'd dearly like to end that cycle, and put the truth out there, which is why I listed a lot of the areas describing the large amount if fluff fir for pp's works. It anything, that was why I might have come across harsher than intended.
*offers internet beer as peace offering*
With respect though, i don't see why a further conversation wouldn't end well. Refresh? I would whole heartedly recommend checking out the iron kingdoms fluff though. You will be amazed. if you're genuinely interested, pm me or open up a thread in the pp boards - I can give you a lot if headers in where to look.
It's not that I'm opposed to having to field special characters. It's more of I don't like the look of those said characters. I'm all for the fluff and the theme and the rules... just not the actual look of the models. I can see why people would like the look of them, but it's not for me.
That's the core difference between BTech and 40K. 40K is a setting. It has specific story lines, and a time line that spans thousands of years, but it's so open that you can pretty much do anything anywhere and justify it. BattleTech is a history. Everything from every single planet name, the required jumps to go from one to another and even the names of CEO's of major companies is defined within the BTech world. You can't just do anything like you can in 40K because BTech is very rigid. That's not necessarily a bad thing mind you, but it is a major structural difference between the two.
Shush white knight , I am trying to enjoy hearing how people like gaming. I do not need you trumpeting the virtues of GW everywhere.
-Loki- wrote: Calling HBMC a white knight is fairly ridiculous.
Humour score=0
Anyways, back OT:
I started in the hobby with WHFB. I first read the book Loathsome Ratmen and all their Vile Kin and fell in love with the evil conniving rat people at once. Over the years I amassed a large army before starting on an IG army for 40K when WHFB started becoming less popular.
What got me out was a combination of massive price hikes (A single decent sized Clanrat unit was going to cost me around £44.00 and the Stormvemin unit I desired was going to be over £50.00), issues and discrepancies within the rules to the point where I was lost, the new rulebooks massive amount of special rules, non of which where in an appendix, but where somewhere in the middle of the book, the general clunkiness and finally the fact that the books where so totally unbalanced that it pretty much removed any fun. I last fought against Chaos Dwarfs, and lost owing to the massive gunline. Hell, the last two rule books have both favoured armies other than Skaven, 7th loving Cavalry (Which Skaven have non of) and 8th loving gunlines and magic (of which Skaven can only do the latter). Finally the sheer number of minis that I had to purchase and assemble, not to mention paint, caused me to back down.
I turned to Warmachine just over one and a half years ago and I have just about stopped looking back. In Warmachine I found a game with clear and concise rules that favours tactical and strategic thinking to win. Now I have a 35PT army, with two Casters (P,Deneghra and The Witch Coven of Garlghast) and all for about £10 more than the cost of a GW starter box. With the reduced model count I can now afford to lavish the attention that each mini deserves on my army and assemble a beautifully painted army. Whats more I can actually win. In WHFB I was usually massacred with Cavalry or RoFLed with arrows/muskets/whatever whilst in 40K my inability to have sufficient funds to purchase the meta units left me being chewed up by richer players. And the dice. Never mention the dice. Ever. Rolling that many for one units attacks was heinous.
In Warmachine I can pull off amazing strategies and bold attacks. And if all else fails, smashing a Seether into my opponents caster usually works.
I have also been getting into Battletech and soon hope to won the intro box.
I havnt quit GW fully as I still wish to play WHFB, but I am moving away and until the prices drop drastically my dreams for a HE army, Empire army and to finnish off my older Brothers Brettonians will have to be shelved.
I just cannot excuse or afford £20+ for a basic unit box that I will need at least two of.
Why I left GW: Because playing Sisters of Battle is like playing chess with pawns only : the codex and rule books sold by GW are inferior to many fan-made creations. My minis may be worthless on the field, but they're worth more on the second-hand market than what I paid for them a few years ago. Most of them aren't even OOP, and that says a lot about the insane price increases of the last few years.
Most of my wargaming friends are moving on anyway. Even if some of my non-wargaming friends can afford a GW army at the standard size, none will pay that much for plastic minis, and I can understand them. I just can't justify buying another army to make a matching pair.
I got rid of all of my 40k stuff and most WHFB. Just kept the minis (stored at my parent's), they can always be useful for other gaming systems like KoW. Most of them are from the fifth edition, they're classic now.
What I have been playing: Mostly board games and historicals.
I will probably start Bolt Action soon. Ticks all the right boxes : not too many minis, interesting rules, dirt cheap minis (1/72 scale)
Why I choose the regular games I play: I'm done with games that cost something into the four digits if you want to field two average forces.
I'm done with games that require you to have a wheelbarrow to carry your minis.
I'm done with games that need endless hordes of minis that take forever to paint.
I'm done with games that take one entire afternoon to finish ONE game.
I'm done with games that have crappy, inefficient and wildly unbalanced rules.
If it has good value, works smoothly and doesn't need too much involvement (I have a life too) because of the sheer complexity of the rules, the game length or the time needed to paint minis, I'm interested.
When I first discovered GW I was tickled pink about the idea of building up model armies and model terrain and then directing the former over the latter with machiavellian strategies and canny tactics, though even back then I thought the prices were a bit steep and my army purchases were a steady, slow trickle rather than great big splurges. I tootled along for a while like this.
Three main things stopped that. In general order...
Epic
I was there for Epic's last official hurrah as Epic: Armageddon. Some of us vets got into it, but when I looked through the book I was horrified by the fact that space marine characters didn't get a gazillion different options and things! But when I played it, I saw how that didn't matter. The game flowed like a dream. It actually delivered those ideals I was attracted to back at the start of my hobby. It opened my eyes to what a real wargame was like. Warmaster and BFG did pretty much the same, but Epic was the first inkling of it
Banishment
GW Belfast's clearing out of veterans on Thursday nights (the first I experienced) coincided rather neatly with their inclusion into the 'Northern Europe' area, or catchment, or whatever, and that latter's ban on SG in stores.
Ironfists
I liked Ogre Kingdoms when they appeared. I'm a dinosaur nut, but I even dumped my lizardmen in favour of ogres. I didn't really like the mooby mongol look, though, so I set myself to convert them to the more tradional, european-styled ogres. It's a project that's still puttering on to this day, with a lot of delays and shelvings, but a big reason for that is...
I'm a kind of indecisive person. When I'm faced with two or more choices offering generally similar outcomes, I tend to get a bit flustered. So it was when I perused the 6th ed ogre book, faced with all the usual weapon and magic item and special trait choices of all army books, and in particular the choice between additional hand weapons and ironfists, which my ogres would be permanently fastened to. Which is better? Which is better? +1 attack, or sometimes +1 attack and sometimes +1 Sv? Which is better?
Then I had the sudden realisation. It doesn't matter. It really shouldn't matter. Not when you're supposed to field dozens of ogres or even hundreds of thinlings. All this fussing and picking over tiny, pointless things meant two things: GW's two core games are clunky, tedious, and overgranular skirmish games, disguised as battle games by having too many minis; and the two core games are much more concerned with listbuilding and 'mathammering' the numbers to take advantage of unbalanced units and combos, than they ever were with any kind of tactics on the tabletop.
I gave up on 40K and WHFB there and then.
What I went to instead. What can't I go to instead? Some fellow gamers expressed an interest in Warmachine, but I wasn't really into the 'page 5' headbutting style, or the GW-style ferreting out of combos. Ditto with Malifaux a few years later, a game that is probably even more broken and beardy than 40K (with the ridiculous pro that it's less random because you draw cards rather than roll dice ) which is a pity 'cos our main game host quickly became a Wyrd henchman, devoted to the cause.
I joined a historicals club, primarily to play something other than GW games. They played WAB, and I joined in a small tourney they held. (My last few games of anything called Warhammer, and proof to me that Warhammer doesn't need wizards and goblins to be clunky and tedious) They gave it up pretty soon in favour of Warlord Games' historical trio, particularly Pike & Shotte as a replacement for WAB ECW. These games, IMO, are great; which is a little unsurprising given they're bred from Warmaster stock. I've had more fun losing with these than getting good dice rolls with GW's core 2.
Other historical games at the club, or on my bookshelf, include Battlegroup Kursk (more historical than FoW's tank parks, tho I haven't noticed the stifling simulation that people dislike in 'more historical' games), Valhalla, Dux Bellorum, Ronin, Warmaster Ancients, and Gutshot.
S/F-wise... I was a bit tardy in selling or chucking most of my 40K/WHFB minis, which wasn't a bad thing, because I figured that if I don't stick with GW's look for their ogres, why should I stick with their rules for their minis, too? It took me a while to peruse different 28mm fantasy battle options out there...
I downloaded HOTT, and it looks like a decent tactical game, but I thought the level of abstraction was just a wee bit too much in places. In particular, I'd have trouble handwaving 28mm archers as shooting only two inches.
I thought Kings of War looked pretty good, nice tactical abstractions, the book was shiny, and there were plenty of fanlists for Warhammer factions pouring out. But there were a few subtle little things that put me off, that gave the vague impression of a stopgap for bored GW fans before they went back to Warhammer. The basing footprints, and the justifications for copying GW's 25mm basing for orcs (they need room to swing, see?); the role of characters as skirmishing combat monsters rather than leaders; and a bit I heard from game designer extraordinaire Jake Thornton about he who has the fastest cav, wins.
Speaking of Jake Thornton: God of Battles. Also looks quite tactical, and actually lets you field ogres and halflings in the same force without proxy (part of my OK theme) but by the time I read it I'd gone well off the idea of farting around, picking out casualties in a battle game. Though it fits with the game, which seems more about warband battles than larger army battles. (Loads of skirmish units, little cav, and no moving your arty) Although I've seen a couple of clever proxy armies, it also seems a bit too wed to Foundry's fantasy range, the different parts of which are either unavailable or execrable.
Fantasy Hail Caesar or Basic Impetus Fantasticus... doable, but the yahoogroup for the former is dead as a doornail with nothing to show for it. (and now I wouldn't go to yahoogroups for love nor money) I'm not entirely sure why I didn't look harder at fantasy impetus ATM...
I wouldn't say no if I was offered a game of any of the above, but at the mo the fantasy mass battle game I've settled on is Mayhem. It looks to have a scoop of Warmaster, a glug of HOTT, but it's also it's own, distinctive game. Flexible in terms of scale, and very flexible in terms of minis or units. Rather than too generic or too rigid, it's got balanced unit creation rules to go with any minis or background you like. It's mechanics are based round the typical RPG polydice (D6s, D8s, D10s, and the rest of the bunch), and I can see how that might put people off, but having read the rules I can also see the enormous tactical depth, risk and reward they bring to the game. And there's always EM4.
An alternative sci-fi game was slightly easier to settle on. I saw a few reviews and reports of Victory Decision: Future Combat, bought the download, and that was that. It has some elements of (uncluttered, unbroken) 40K, as well as Epic: A (the author was an E:A playtester, IIRC), with some pretty simple-looking switches between platoon-level skirmish and company-level battles.
Otherwise, some of us got into Dystopian Wars, which is quite fun, and I even got the historicals club interested in it. I also had my first demo game of Infinity fairly recently. I'd thought the models were pretty but disregarded the game, foolishly assuming it was a far-future version of Malifaux. Nope! I was quite impressed with it, and I should get round to buying a starter set for it before too long.
I played for a bit in the late 90s (just before 3E came out), and stopped when I went to university. I came back to wargames in 2010, and got back into 40K, picking up an army for the faction that interested me....Sisters of Battle. Do I really need to say any more?
Well, the shoddy treatment of my army wasn't the only reason. There was also the scale bloat of 40K, where you were putting down twice as many models as in 2E and quite often scooping up a good number of them before they got to do anything. There were the once-or-twice per game rules arguments, where we would either both waste ten minutes flipping through rambling rulebooks which sometimes weren't designed for the edition in question, or invoke the "cheat on a 4+" rule. It was hard to ignore that some things I'd have liked to take for fluff reasons were obviously overpriced or purpose-less (Celestians get an ability that makes them better in CC, but can't take CC weapons?).
Mainly, I just got into other things. The start of 2010 was, as it turned out, a very good time to start wargaming. Warmachine 2E had just come out, and Malifaux was launched, and I got into both. And I simply liked them better--a scale that felt like more of a fit for my tastes (closer to 2E 40K, which was probably not a coincidence), rules where questions could be answered by checking what the rulebook actually said and there was no stigma for trying to win, companies that actually seemed to like their fans and wanted to talk to them. And so on.
I did stick with Blood Bowl & Necromunda for a bit, but then Specialist got capped in the back of the head gangland-style, so that was the end of my association. I do keep an eye on GW's progress, because I hope when the management pull their golden parachutes, the company won't be completely destroyed.
When I first discovered GW I was tickled pink about the idea of building up model armies and model terrain and then directing the former over the latter with machiavellian strategies and canny tactics, though even back then I thought the prices were a bit steep and my army purchases were a steady, slow trickle rather than great big splurges. I tootled along for a while like this.
Three main things stopped that. In general order...
Epic
I was there for Epic's last official hurrah as Epic: Armageddon. Some of us vets got into it, but when I looked through the book I was horrified by the fact that space marine characters didn't get a gazillion different options and things! But when I played it, I saw how that didn't matter. The game flowed like a dream. It actually delivered those ideals I was attracted to back at the start of my hobby. It opened my eyes to what a real wargame was like. Warmaster and BFG did pretty much the same, but Epic was the first inkling of it
Banishment
GW Belfast's clearing out of veterans on Thursday nights (the first I experienced) coincided rather neatly with their inclusion into the 'Northern Europe' area, or catchment, or whatever, and that latter's ban on SG in stores.
Ironfists
I liked Ogre Kingdoms when they appeared. I'm a dinosaur nut, but I even dumped my lizardmen in favour of ogres. I didn't really like the mooby mongol look, though, so I set myself to convert them to the more tradional, european-styled ogres. It's a project that's still puttering on to this day, with a lot of delays and shelvings, but a big reason for that is...
I'm a kind of indecisive person. When I'm faced with two or more choices offering generally similar outcomes, I tend to get a bit flustered. So it was when I perused the 6th ed ogre book, faced with all the usual weapon and magic item and special trait choices of all army books, and in particular the choice between additional hand weapons and ironfists, which my ogres would be permanently fastened to. Which is better? Which is better? +1 attack, or sometimes +1 attack and sometimes +1 Sv? Which is better?
Then I had the sudden realisation. It doesn't matter. It really shouldn't matter. Not when you're supposed to field dozens of ogres or even hundreds of thinlings. All this fussing and picking over tiny, pointless things meant two things: GW's two core games are clunky, tedious, and overgranular skirmish games, disguised as battle games by having too many minis; and the two core games are much more concerned with listbuilding and 'mathammering' the numbers to take advantage of unbalanced units and combos, than they ever were with any kind of tactics on the tabletop.
I gave up on 40K and WHFB there and then.
What I went to instead. What can't I go to instead? Some fellow gamers expressed an interest in Warmachine, but I wasn't really into the 'page 5' headbutting style, or the GW-style ferreting out of combos. Ditto with Malifaux a few years later, a game that is probably even more broken and beardy than 40K (with the ridiculous pro that it's less random because you draw cards rather than roll dice ) which is a pity 'cos our main game host quickly became a Wyrd henchman, devoted to the cause.
I joined a historicals club, primarily to play something other than GW games. They played WAB, and I joined in a small tourney they held. (My last few games of anything called Warhammer, and proof to me that Warhammer doesn't need wizards and goblins to be clunky and tedious) They gave it up pretty soon in favour of Warlord Games' historical trio, particularly Pike & Shotte as a replacement for WAB ECW. These games, IMO, are great; which is a little unsurprising given they're bred from Warmaster stock. I've had more fun losing with these than getting good dice rolls with GW's core 2.
Other historical games at the club, or on my bookshelf, include Battlegroup Kursk (more historical than FoW's tank parks, tho I haven't noticed the stifling simulation that people dislike in 'more historical' games), Valhalla, Dux Bellorum, Ronin, Warmaster Ancients, and Gutshot.
S/F-wise... I was a bit tardy in selling or chucking most of my 40K/WHFB minis, which wasn't a bad thing, because I figured that if I don't stick with GW's look for their ogres, why should I stick with their rules for their minis, too? It took me a while to peruse different 28mm fantasy battle options out there...
I downloaded HOTT, and it looks like a decent tactical game, but I thought the level of abstraction was just a wee bit too much in places. In particular, I'd have trouble handwaving 28mm archers as shooting only two inches.
I thought Kings of War looked pretty good, nice tactical abstractions, the book was shiny, and there were plenty of fanlists for Warhammer factions pouring out. But there were a few subtle little things that put me off, that gave the vague impression of a stopgap for bored GW fans before they went back to Warhammer. The basing footprints, and the justifications for copying GW's 25mm basing for orcs (they need room to swing, see?); the role of characters as skirmishing combat monsters rather than leaders; and a bit I heard from game designer extraordinaire Jake Thornton about he who has the fastest cav, wins.
Speaking of Jake Thornton: God of Battles. Also looks quite tactical, and actually lets you field ogres and halflings in the same force without proxy (part of my OK theme) but by the time I read it I'd gone well off the idea of farting around, picking out casualties in a battle game. Though it fits with the game, which seems more about warband battles than larger army battles. (Loads of skirmish units, little cav, and no moving your arty) Although I've seen a couple of clever proxy armies, it also seems a bit too wed to Foundry's fantasy range, the different parts of which are either unavailable or execrable.
Fantasy Hail Caesar or Basic Impetus Fantasticus... doable, but the yahoogroup for the former is dead as a doornail with nothing to show for it. (and now I wouldn't go to yahoogroups for love nor money) I'm not entirely sure why I didn't look harder at fantasy impetus ATM...
I wouldn't say no if I was offered a game of any of the above, but at the mo the fantasy mass battle game I've settled on is Mayhem. It looks to have a scoop of Warmaster, a glug of HOTT, but it's also it's own, distinctive game. Flexible in terms of scale, and very flexible in terms of minis or units. Rather than too generic or too rigid, it's got balanced unit creation rules to go with any minis or background you like. It's mechanics are based round the typical RPG polydice (D6s, D8s, D10s, and the rest of the bunch), and I can see how that might put people off, but having read the rules I can also see the enormous tactical depth, risk and reward they bring to the game. And there's always EM4.
An alternative sci-fi game was slightly easier to settle on. I saw a few reviews and reports of Victory Decision: Future Combat, bought the download, and that was that. It has some elements of (uncluttered, unbroken) 40K, as well as Epic: A (the author was an E:A playtester, IIRC), with some pretty simple-looking switches between platoon-level skirmish and company-level battles.
Otherwise, some of us got into Dystopian Wars, which is quite fun, and I even got the historicals club interested in it. I also had my first demo game of Infinity fairly recently. I'd thought the models were pretty but disregarded the game, foolishly assuming it was a far-future version of Malifaux. Nope! I was quite impressed with it, and I should get round to buying a starter set for it before too long.
Wow, it's been a very long time since a post told me about two rulesets I wasn't familiar with. I'll check them out.
Our ending points may be different (I love KoW, and SBH and "Of Gods and Mortals" are my other fantasy favorites), but your journey sounds alot like mine. Alot of trying different rulesets until you find ones that fits you best. It's really the way to go if you can find opponents.
Has anyone either toned down their wargaming overall after leaving GW and/or moved more to video gaming? I'm wondering how much overlap there is and if PC strategy games are considered much of a replacement for tabletop wargaming for people. I got into tabletop wargaming about the same time I cut down on RTS games (ie. starcraft) and played more TBS games (ie. Europa Universalis, Civilization) and this continues after no more 40k gaming. So many good turn based strategy games, some are even good multiplayer so scratch that social itch.
Yonan wrote: I'm wondering how much overlap there is and if PC strategy games are considered much of a replacement for tabletop wargaming for people.
I genuinely don't know. I don't spend as much time and money on wargaming as I used to when I still actively played GW games but that was about a decade ago and my personal circumstances have changed significantly in that time, not least because I have a family now.
Yeah it was mentioned in another thread that it's more a time than price thing in relation to tabletop vs video games especially for us older bastards (I'm 31, I'm not old!) with work, family etc. You only have so many hours for fun, do you use that time for tabletop, video games or other stuff. The accessibility of video gaming is one of the huge pros for it I find so that makes it pretty attractive compared to tabletop. When you can launch a great looking 3d strategy game each from your own homes and be in voice chat with your mates, save the game if someones kids act up and so on... it's very appealing compared to the time investment required for a 2k game of 40k.
The time required is a big part of why I love Dreadball, you can smash out games in 15 mins. I really can't call 40k a "beer and pretzels" game as some people seem to.
Yonan wrote: Has anyone either toned down their wargaming overall after leaving GW and/or moved more to video gaming? I'm wondering how much overlap there is and if PC strategy games are considered much of a replacement for tabletop wargaming for people.
It's funny - I'm the opposite.
When I was a teenager, I was hugely into video games. University happened and my whole interest there died. I guess aside from my mega drive emulator, a few old strategy games on the PC (Starcraft brood war) which I play once in a blue moon - I don't play computer games, nor do I have any interest in playing computer games. Heck even the games I play are over ten or fifteen years old!
Yonan wrote: Has anyone either toned down their wargaming overall after leaving GW and/or moved more to video gaming?
I see playing more games and getting more painted in other games. I always had a dread of chugging through 50+ guys just to be the core of my army, not counting for tanks, heavy support choices, etc. Then bigger models like aircraft or super heavies. I just don't enjoy painting them than models of characters. I still fully intend to do GW dioramas that fit (or don't...) within the context of Grimdark.
Playing bare metal in Warmachine doesn't draw stink eye much either.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I got a super-stupid crazy gaming rig last year and have played more video games than wargames since then. Does that count?
PC Master Race represent! *fistbump*
Out of interest, does it include many strategy games? Also any 40k games like DoW 1/2 and Space Marine?
Deadnight wrote: When I was a teenager, I was hugely into video games. University happened and my whole interest there died. I guess aside from my mega drive emulator, a few old strategy games on the PC (Starcraft brood war) which I play once in a blue moon - I don't play computer games, nor do I have any interest in playing computer games. Heck even the games I play are over ten or fifteen years old! Old school gaming all the way!
I may be slowly joining you as I was a PC gamer and have now got the tabletop bug, but I can't seem to kick the video games yet. WoW is a harsh mistress too ; p
TheKbob wrote: I see playing more games and getting more painted in other games. I always had a dread of chugging through 50+ guys just to be the core of my army, not counting for tanks, heavy support choices, etc. Then bigger models like aircraft or super heavies. I just don't enjoy painting them than models of characters. I still fully intend to do GW dioramas that fit (or don't...) within the context of Grimdark.
Playing bare metal in Warmachine doesn't draw stink eye much either.
Once I'm good enough I'd love to do some dioramas too, you see some amazing work there. I'm still working on my Blood Ravens purely for "I fething love Blood Ravens", and I have IG Tanith First, IG renegade Guard and CSM to work on still too -_-. And 300 Deadzone minis -_-
Warmachine draws a lot more "gamers" due to the better rules so yeah I've seen that too. I've also seen more beautifully painted warmachine armies, having less models helps you devote more time to each one I guess, and they are very stylised. The biggest powergamer (not waac/douche) I know who fielded grey hordes in 40k is paying to get his Circle and Khador professionally painted, he's really into warmahordes which is a big seal of approval for me, he knows his games be they tabletop or video.
I haven't quit GW, but I am on a purchasing hiatus from them. My wargame funds will go towards Dropzone Commander in the meantime. Everything about DZC impresses me immensely.
Yonan wrote: Out of interest, does it include many strategy games? Also any 40k games like DoW 1/2 and Space Marine?
Umm... not so much. I mean, I bought World in Conflict, Dawn of War II (plus its expansions) and Company of Heroes (the first one), but aside from the first couple of levels in DoWII I haven't played them yet. Looking over what I have played since I got my new PC we have... Spec Ops: The Line, Tomb Raider, The Witcher 2, X-Com Enemy Unknown/Within, FarCry 3, Torchlight 2, and things like that. I'm currently playing through Skyrim, but got distracted by Assassin's Creed Black Flag (got that in the recent Steam sale). So it's not really a strategy game "replacement", more just something I do instead of wargaming stuff (though, I am currently doing another 40KRPG book for FFG, so that probably counts towards my war gaming 'head space' at the moment).
The first game I played on my new PC when I got it was Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion, a cross between real time space combat and an a 4X, so maybe that means something? Or it just means I like watching ships explode.
Why I (mostly) left GW: the rules for 40k suck. I won't bother writing a full essay about why, but the simple version is that every single aspect of the game is broken. Balance sucks, design consistency is nonexistent, not even YMDC knows how the rules actually work, and the whole thing is just a giant bloated mess of special rules and exceptions to special rules and exceptions to the exceptions. And attempting to play even semi-competitively is a nightmare, as the outcome of the game is almost entirely based on which player's chosen balance exploits win the rock-paper-scissors match. I'm honestly surprised that anyone writing GW's rules is still employed when they display such staggering levels of incompetence. But the end result is that the game just isn't fun anymore.
What I replaced GW with: X-Wing. It's fun, there aren't any rule arguments, and it's balanced well enough that I can play random pickup games with whatever list I feel like using and feel like I have a fair chance of winning as long as I've made a reasonable attempt to put together a functioning strategy. And it's just so much cheaper, despite buying 3-4 copies of every ship. I'm also still looking for a few OOPFW models on ebay, which is a lot easier now that I can save all of my gaming budget for them instead of having to waste money on $50-100 rulebooks or buying the latest overpowered tournament list.
The thing that finished it for me in a final and complete way was when GW sent their lawyers after the Talk BloodBowl community. You don't send your most ardent fans legal threats and you don't demand to take over the domain name of a fan community for your product.
I will never, ever be a customer of a company that sees me as it's legal enemy.
I largely do historicals now. And sci-fi and fantasy games using other rules from the internet. Song of Blades and Heroes, FUBAR, Chain Reaction, Tomorrow's War, Fantasy Rules!, SuperSystem, Goal System: Delves, etc.,. I also occasionally play Warmachine/Hordes.
Yonan wrote: Has anyone either toned down their wargaming overall after leaving GW and/or moved more to video gaming?
I'm sure some for some folks it works this way, but not for me. I've taken various breaks from wargaming over the years, but I don't recall ever filling that time with much-increased video gaming. For me, nothing about Video gaming has the same tactile experience, or the same creative outlet of actually building something.
As to the "social" itch, it may be an old fashioned opinion, but I don't consider playing video games with someone in front of the TV or talking to somone online to have the same quality of interaction as actually having someone across the table, face to face with a boardgame or tabletop wargame. While no doubt enjoyable and having some social value, it just doesn't have the same quality of interaction for me, and most social scientists agree.
What model count range do you play x-wing at, when you own 3-4 of each model, and how long are the games do you find? I'm pretty keen on X-wing for a number of reasons. Do you think the game will scale well with the larger stuff that's (I think) coming out now? --- I'll refrain from derailing on the relative social interaction despite it being a very interesting topic for me ; p
H.B.M.C - Sins is great! I've played a lot of stock Sins since it's release with friends, it's really good as a "4x-lite". I'd love a Battlefleet Gothic mod for it, but as is there are some other great ones such as Star Wars and Star Trek that are worth a look if you haven't already.
Yonan wrote: Has anyone either toned down their wargaming overall after leaving GW and/or moved more to video gaming? I'm wondering how much overlap there is and if PC strategy games are considered much of a replacement for tabletop wargaming for people. I got into tabletop wargaming about the same time I cut down on RTS games (ie. starcraft) and played more TBS games (ie. Europa Universalis, Civilization) and this continues after no more 40k gaming. So many good turn based strategy games, some are even good multiplayer so scratch that social itch.
Yes, but not strategy games. I've played WoW for the past couple of years when I had all but forgotten about wargaming as a hobby; I've only even come back to wargaming as a whole within the past year, if even that.
Wow, it's been a very long time since a post told me about two rulesets I wasn't familiar with. I'll check them out.
Happy to be of service.
Our ending points may be different (I love KoW,
Well, I don't despiseKoW. As said, it does look good for the most part, and I will play it. Given the general state of fantasy battle gaming round here I can't afford to be inflexible, to the point that I'll probably magnetise my minis just to put them on different games' base sizes or unit footprints.
and SBH and "Of Gods and Mortals" are my other fantasy favorites), but your journey sounds alot like mine. Alot of trying different rulesets until you find ones that fits you best. It's really the way to go if you can find opponents.
Reminds me, I talked about my bookshelf but forgot most of my book folder. I've got a copy of SBH meself, and CROM, IIRC.
Yonan wrote: Has anyone either toned down their wargaming overall after leaving GW and/or moved more to video gaming?.
I've found the opposite. The less 40k I played, the more wargaming I did in total. Once I found rules and players who didn't fight me every step of the way , the whole experience just became so much more enjoyable and worthwhile.
I was happy playing lots of GW games , the boxed games,Blood bowl,Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, Dark Future.
And the big battle games BFG, and Epic.
And the big skirmish game of 40k.
When GW messed up 40k skirmish by changing the game size without changing the rules.
I just suck to Epic,BFG, and the other boxed games.
Then GW decided that all these other games were not a suited to milking money out of a shrinking customer base , as 40k and WHFB.
So they dropped the games I enjoyed.
Then other companies made these games I wanted to play , so I went where the games were developed .
GW stopped caring about games and gamers, and focused on collectors.
I am a gamer so moved to companies that write games for game play , not short term sales pitches.
Drop Zone Commander, X-wing.Dead Zone, Dread Ball.(FoW and looking at BA for my WWII fun.)
I would try Infinity and Warmachine if they were played locally.
What model count range do you play x-wing at, when you own 3-4 of each model, and how long are the games do you find? I'm pretty keen on X-wing for a number of reasons. Do you think the game will scale well with the larger stuff that's (I think) coming out now?
---
I'll refrain from derailing on the relative social interaction despite it being a very interesting topic for me ; p
H.B.M.C - Sins is great! I've played a lot of stock Sins since it's release with friends, it's really good as a "4x-lite". I'd love a Battlefleet Gothic mod for it, but as is there are some other great ones such as Star Wars and Star Trek that are worth a look if you haven't already.
X-wing is usually played at 100 points, which is the standard tournament format. 100 points gets you between 3-8 ships per side, depending on if they are bare-bones rookie pilots, or tooled up characters. tournament rules are 60 minutes per game, and once you are up to speed with the rules, its pretty easy to finish the game within 60 minutes.
The new epic format allows for 300 points a side, or 200 per person in team battles. These take a good bit longer, and are more akin to a game of 40k in terms of set up and play time.
I've play a couple epic games now and they do take a couple hours, but they are great fun. I love the jamming that big transport ship with no weapons does.
It really did provide a new game experience beyond just dueling with small squads of fighters. The big ships and the extra points really changed things. There was some hard decision making about whether to take out fighters or concentrate fire on the larger craft.
With the larger crafts also having lower agility, it felt pretty cool to finally get the most out of things like the slave 1 and tie bomber barrages. That big pig is not dodging that missile!
I've only played one epic game so far, but the satisfaction from ramming a pair of tooled up bombers with my corvette was immense. Sadly, the maneouvre crippled the fore...
It was genuinely epic in scope though. Lots of fun to be had with huge fleets and ships! Various skirmishes were happening all over the board, with a wings dueling with interceptors, the falcon and a hwk battling the firespray and some ties, and some bombers with a shuttle tackling the behemoth.
Can't wait to see what the imperial huge ships will be.
Ok first off I would not say I've truly left 40k as at the end of the day it is the game to go to at my FLGS but I have been drifting away from it..
Why I'm drifting away Well its not because of the money surprisingly, I know that if I want anything I can go to Ebay or another store such as Wayland Games or my own FLGS which offer discounts, nor is it from a poorly worded rulebook as I have a good few friends who keep their sensible hats on. My main reasons is mainly divided onto two sections:
Balance issues: I know that rules are meant to be reflective of fluff, which in a game I agree with completely however some of those rules do give others too much of an advantage one such example is the Blade storm rule for Eldar which can be compared to a bad rule that supposed to reflect the fluff such as the Mob Rule for Orks one one side we have an awesome rule which can kill MC's without giving them any saves and the other rule in this instance Mob Rule makes you roll a mini mindshackle scarab table in which while it does pass the moral check does kill your own guys unless your prepared to spend 'eavy armour for 10pts a boy. Another example is all armies have strengths and weaknesses, this is core game mechanics of any game. However there are certain ways which not only cover a weakness of an army but also take the strength of another army and shoves it right into their backside, a good example of this is the Midshackle scarabs, to not only cover your weakness of low Inititve but to also make certain good units in other armies useless is just plain wrong imo..
It is examples like this where some armies have to prepare for fixing their own issues within their codex whilst others get to have good rules that really boost an army without having to pay many or any points at all, that do discourage my motivation form playing many 40k games imo.
Tournament scene because of the balance issues in 40k I personally really do dislike the competitive scene in 40k, I like competitive play in games in general as I like testing out my skill, but I feel with 40k that the only skill is your job in real life so you can quickly pay upfront for the latest net list just to win some prize money, it is this kind of attitude that really does peeve me off when thinking about 40k.
Ok so what have I been drifting off into? Well a couple of games tbh..
Warmachine: I like Cygnar as I love the models of the knights, trenchers and lighting and Steamnpunk.. Count me in
X-Wing: Bought a starter set just recently and I am getting about 4 more TIE fighters on the cheap, which is a good starting point for me
Deadzone: Got the starter for my birthday, played/reffed on demo game using the free intro rules on the Mantic website and loved it, better yet a lot of people down my FLGS also want to flock to Deadzone for is awesome minis for cheap affordable cost as well and those who have played the demo game fell in love with it instantly
Maliufaux, Bought Archanists because I loved all the themes surrounding them, however since most of the FLGS plays Archanists anyway I decided to start up the Guild and since then never looked back
Batman Miniatures Game: Played this got Jokers starter with Mr.Freeze and never looked back. My all time favorite game. Ever. And now Arkham Origins Deathstroke is coming soon I am really looking forward to seeing it
What I plan on getting into:
Dystopian Wars: I used to play this as part of a school club game, but since leaving school I have had no chance of a game since, but one day I plan on getting back into it with my KoB
Infinity: I have heard good and bad from this, however when looking at the factions I was always in a conflict whether to choose Pan-Oceania or the Normads... Now since the upcoming release of the Starter set I feel like i really want to give that a head start as its probably the first starter set that has both factions I want in it which I feel deserves a big amount of credit for Corvus Beli
Firestrom Armada/Planetfall: Love the designs for this, would be nice to see how it plays
All Quiet on the Martian Front: Love War of the Worlds, and would love a Tri-Pod force screeching "Oolaa".
Will add any more games if I think of any I can recall..
Eggs wrote: I've only played one epic game so far, but the satisfaction from ramming a pair of tooled up bombers with my corvette was immense. Sadly, the maneouvre crippled the fore...
It was genuinely epic in scope though. Lots of fun to be had with huge fleets and ships! Various skirmishes were happening all over the board, with a wings dueling with interceptors, the falcon and a hwk battling the firespray and some ties, and some bombers with a shuttle tackling the behemoth.
Can't wait to see what the imperial huge ships will be.
What everyone wants is a Star Destroyer but at the scale it would be nearly 6 metres long so I am afraid it will remain in the realm of imagination.
I "started" 40k in 08, during my second tour in Iraq. While out there, I had bought the 4th edition rule book, and Marine codex (right before 5th came out)... My first miniatures purchase was the Apocalypse Reloaded release of the Space Marine Company, plus Land Raiders, plus Termie chaplain (huge mistake)... Ever since, my wife has bitched about the costs of doing what I honestly love to do: paint models and game.
So, I got the 5th ed. rule book, kept up the codices with most of the armies (though for some reason, I cannot find my CSM book). When I saw the announcement for 6th, and later the price of the BRB for it, I said "I'm done" I didn't like the cost of the book, and I didn't like all the rules disputes that ultimately came up whenever I played in store.
Since then, I've collected models for various DnD campaigns, as well as starting a Mercenaries and now Convergence force for Warmachine. I've started playing Malifaux with the wife (honestly the first TT "wargame" that she has enjoyed, so thats a plus), as well as eyeing/collecting Infinity and Helldorado minis/rules.
The warmachine thing sort of ended up a small "mistake" as I was preparing for a third deployment, a buddy in my unit and I were planning on taking gaming stuff with us, and he didn't want to take his full DA army, so we both mutually decided Warmachine was the way to go for Afghanistan... Well, turns out, I didn't deploy with the unit, and he bought a whole new 40k army down range
The thing with Infinity and Helldorado were actually kind of accidents in themselves. I had long eyed an Empire WHFB army, and I LOOOVE the Warrior Priest (it was my main class on the doomed MMO), but I didn't like the models offered, so I looked for a suitably heavy armored, hammer wielding loony, and came across a Helldorado model for Augustus Raimond. Very similarly, as I was starting my "poor-mans Death Korps" army for IG, I was looking at sniper models, and found a ton of really awesome looking infinity models, a couple of which made it into that army.
Malifaux was the one extra game where I went into it, looking for a new game to play. And once I showed my wife the card mechanic instead of dice, she wanted to try it, and so we got the rule book, some supplements (because who doesn't love more fluff) and a couple of Crews and tried it out.
I constantly read about people moving to another systems and 40К declining as a result in certain areas. Well, it happened in our community. I sold my last 40К army two days ago at a huge discount just because I didn't wand to have anything to do with GW. They lack of respect to their customers, their total disconnect from their fan base, their total disregard of the quality of their rules... I can go on. My decision to finally let go was the best thing to come out of my brief flirtation with 40K. Today I went to the club and only few were feeling like playing warhammer. Most of the people were socializing, doing stuff for the club, a friend of mine was assembling his Dropzone Commander models and two guys were playing proxied game of Warmachine, because our models haven't arrived yet. Warhammer was played only on two tables and usually you can see 8-10 people playing. I felt both relieved and quite sad. Sad for a friend who feels left behind, because he is quite attached to the game. He is one of the best opponents I had pleasure to play with, and he is in 40К mainly for the fluff and the social interactions. And it seems that everyone is loosing interest in his favorite past time. Actually I find this terrible. Why did it have to turn this way? But I couldn't go on. I started to feel like a hypocrite for playing a game, made by people who hate me. It simply wasn't fun and all the models I loved had to go.
I've just played my first few games of Dropzone Commander and it has been quite enlightening! Miniature wargames can be fun(40K was my first)! This game is one of the best tactical games that I've played . I am eagerly awaiting the rest of the 3000 points of Scourge that I've ordered. Also I look forward to put my 20 points Menoth on the table. We are indeed living in the golden age of wargaming !
Don't buy or use anything GW has come out with since at least 2008 and you'll have a great time with 40k. 40k is only as unpleasant as GW can make it for you.
I left GW in that I still play 6th, but all my purchases go to ebay, for cut-price models. And I've recently taken to buying paint from Privateer Press.
My tanks be rollin', 'Dubs be hatin, tryna catch me fightin' dirty!
Eggs wrote: I've only played one epic game so far, but the satisfaction from ramming a pair of tooled up bombers with my corvette was immense. Sadly, the maneouvre crippled the fore...
It was genuinely epic in scope though. Lots of fun to be had with huge fleets and ships! Various skirmishes were happening all over the board, with a wings dueling with interceptors, the falcon and a hwk battling the firespray and some ties, and some bombers with a shuttle tackling the behemoth.
Can't wait to see what the imperial huge ships will be.
What everyone wants is a Star Destroyer but at the scale it would be nearly 6 metres long so I am afraid it will remain in the realm of imagination.
Let's start a kickstarter for a 6M Start destroyer playsheet! for massive X-wing games! (Turrets not included!)
Im slowing down my GW partaking and getting into X-Wing.
When I lived in Somerset we did a tone of Warmachine and Zombie Hunters Extreme or it could of been Extreme Zombie Hunters, I left Frome and started back with 40k and Im in a new club so Im starting Warmachine back up and getting my toe wet with a bit of 40k X-Wing and back with Warmachine Mk II
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I want to see an Imperial Shipyard to play games on and see if the Imps can hold onto it.
For me it all started at the release of 6th ed 40k i played a few games and just hated the rule set combine that with the price hikes and I started to look elsewhere after playing old gw favourites like mordheim, necromunda and gorkamorka. I played a few other games like warhammer historicals legends of the high seas and rules of engagement. Then tried flames of war but it felt to much like 40k set in ww2 for me so had picked up battlegroup kursk using 15mm models so I could persuade the flames guys to play its now our go to ww2 system. Being converted to a smaller scale of models a new game dropzone commander caught my eye after I picked it up I havnt looked back I love it.
I still have my 40k armies lots of orks some guard and some space wolves I still want to use these im going to try out warpath. After gw I have also started playing alot more board games.
Now I still love alot of gws models but the price still puts me of at the moment. The rules though the only thing im doing is playing old games that gw has long ago lost interest in.
Not a dramatic stop, but a slow drift for me. I used to play 40K and Fantasy regularly about 5 years ago in a competitive club in Dublin, and travel to tournaments. I picked up Warmachine and Hordes and enjoyed them for a while.
Now I've been moving around a lot, and my heavy metal Warmachine and Hordes models have been taking a beating, so I switched back to 40K for 6th edition when it came out. Still haven't played a game of it, because the rules just seemed too clunky and it nullified my favourite army (horde orks) as far as I could see. Work meant I was getting no games in, but still painting models and following things online.
Not getting games in meant that the models lost some value to me as a consumer, as did the rules. When the rulebooks went hardback, I decided they weren't worth the money to upgrade for my armies any more. I sometimes buy a plastic boxed set if I think it is nice enough, but that has declined big time. I've not bought into 7th and my enthusiasm for the whole thing has just ebbed away. I'm not angry or indignant, just bored!
So, not being tied to any system due to not playing, I began to purchase miniatures for other reasons. I got into Red Box Games fantasy miniatures for aesthetic reasons alone- I just love them! Their more realistic scaling grew on me, and made me look more favourably at Historicals. I began to read more history and listen to historical podcasts, and now I've got 3 army projects for Saga and a plan for Pike and Shotte on the way. I'm collecting all the armies myself and if I don't get to play they are still fun little projects for me to play with and try to get right. If I meet someone who might be interested, I can give them an army and the systems I can choose to use to play with them are simple enough to teach that I can do so in half an hour, as opposed to the clunky mess that GW is selling these days.
The last nail in the coffin was probably that GW closed their awesome store in Dusseldorf so now the only dedicated gaming store stocks mostly historicals and Warmachine and Hordes.
(All of that said, I've also drifted away from Privateer Press games due to issues with the price and quality of their miniatures. I don't find the scaling consistent enough and I hate working with clunky metals that come apart even after they've been extensively pinned. Only exquisite metals or hard plastic kits are good enough for me now, especially when I do a price comparison with many high quality plastic historical kits!)
Eggs wrote: I've only played one epic game so far, but the satisfaction from ramming a pair of tooled up bombers with my corvette was immense. Sadly, the maneouvre crippled the fore...
It was genuinely epic in scope though. Lots of fun to be had with huge fleets and ships! Various skirmishes were happening all over the board, with a wings dueling with interceptors, the falcon and a hwk battling the firespray and some ties, and some bombers with a shuttle tackling the behemoth.
Can't wait to see what the imperial huge ships will be.
What everyone wants is a Star Destroyer but at the scale it would be nearly 6 metres long so I am afraid it will remain in the realm of imagination.
Let's start a kickstarter for a 6M Start destroyer playsheet! for massive X-wing games! (Turrets not included!)
Nah, that's what they made Legos for.
Lots and lots o' Lego.....
More seriously... I think that the Star Destroyer might be better done as a battle mat - a playing surface that fires back. *EDIT* Maybe some 3D elements like the towers and some turrets.
Kilkrazy wrote: You could have the bridge and some gun turrets as plastic models. The sort of top level of the ship's outer hull would be the battlemat.
That's still enormous! I like the idea, but I don't see them doing it. It's just too big!
Kilkrazy wrote: A 3D battlemat of a Star Destroyer is a great idea!
You could have the bridge and some gun turrets as plastic models. The sort of top level of the ship's outer hull would be the battlemat.
The rest of the ship would be off the edges of the table.
Not sure if he ever got any further with it - but a month or so ago...we cut out plywood for doing a the front end of a Star Destroyer (forget which class - but the Tie Fighters launch out of the nose on it). My friends idea is that the tie fighters would effectively "respawn" from the launch tubes til the end of the scenario. You could go up and over the destroyer and hide on one side or the other - but we didn't want to mess with going under it. It is probably the first 3 1/2 feet of a to scale Star Destoyer done sort of as a "waterline" model that he was going to detail out with bits and pieces.
I have given up on 40k since 7th edition arrived. While I was disappointed in the release and the cost, it was really because my friends gave up on it and sold their armies.
We now play poker. we have been playing draw and stud, along with Texas Hold'em and Omaha, and creating our own 40k variants to ease the transition.
The best is WAAGGH poker, played like Omaha but with some new rules. At any point in the game, a player holding an Ace can declare a WAAGGH, thus ending the hand but leaving the pot in place for the next round.
techsoldaten wrote: I have given up on 40k since 7th edition arrived. While I was disappointed in the release and the cost, it was really because my friends gave up on it and sold their armies.
We now play poker. we have been playing draw and stud, along with Texas Hold'em and Omaha, and creating our own 40k variants to ease the transition.
The best is WAAGGH poker, played like Omaha but with some new rules. At any point in the game, a player holding an Ace can declare a WAAGGH, thus ending the hand but leaving the pot in place for the next round.
Try a skirmish game. A lot less set up and you can play multiple games in one night, or relax and let one game take the entire night.
Kilkrazy wrote: You could have the bridge and some gun turrets as plastic models. The sort of top level of the ship's outer hull would be the battlemat.
That's still enormous! I like the idea, but I don't see them doing it. It's just too big!
I think if you compromised on the scale it would be doable. Perhaps introduce a "Star Frigate" ship that is smaller than a destroyer. The Bridge unit should be maybe two feet wide. It could be moulded in separate sections.
It is great to see that people have already started to make some of their own items in this direction.
I have played 40k since early 3rd Ed., and have dabbled with Fantasy from time to time, but never got as in to it as 40k. I stopped playing some time in 4th Ed due to the silly rules..and me sucking since I didn't power game. Soon after I got into Flames of War in the back end of 1st Ed. and have played it ever since, since each addition fixes (minor) problems and doesn't create new ones. They have been getting out of my price range but I already have three complete armies (German Mech, Russian Inf/Hvy Tank, Vietnamese inf) so I am cool. I have also bought models just for painting (Perry Napoleonics and Warlord/Empress Zulu War) and have done a number of other games. Force on Force let's you build a dozen armies on the cheap, and thus I just supply minis for my usual opponents. I got back into 40k for a bit in 5th Ed. (Waaargh!) but thought the one game of 6th I played was crap. 7th...not gonna do it (read that in the SNL George H.W. Bush voice, cuz that's how I wrote it.). The thing with 40k is, I still LOVE the story line and some of the olde rmodels. One thing that FoF has allowed me to do is play 40k again using their Tomorrows War rules. It has a few hiccups so far but I am liking it and will probably like it more as time goes on.
Damn y'all are making it hard for me to keep putting off x-wing.
Edit. Also my friend and I are thinking of playing saga with whfb models. I always loved fantasy models, just never cared to play the GW rules. We also have thought about whfb models for Lardies Dux Britanniarum.
Kilkrazy wrote: You could have the bridge and some gun turrets as plastic models. The sort of top level of the ship's outer hull would be the battlemat.
That's still enormous! I like the idea, but I don't see them doing it. It's just too big!
Play-sheet, Battle-mat, i meant the same thing,you could do it in 3 sections of mats! Campaign battle 1 on the first mat, battle 2 on mat two etcetera
To me it's about how a company treats their customers. Yes, GW has terrible rules and hgh prices but what really gets me is that it's become apparent in the last few years that at BEST they think nothing of their customers or fans and at worse they have active contempt for them.
Kirasu wrote: To me it's about how a company treats their customers. Yes, GW has terrible rules and hgh prices but what really gets me is that it's become apparent in the last few years that at BEST they think nothing of their customers or fans and at worse they have active contempt for them.
That's what really turned me away from GW
Same here. I can look over a lot, but I can't look over that.
Kirasu wrote: To me it's about how a company treats their customers. Yes, GW has terrible rules and hgh prices but what really gets me is that it's become apparent in the last few years that at BEST they think nothing of their customers or fans and at worse they have active contempt for them.
That's what really turned me away from GW
Same here. I can look over a lot, but I can't look over that.
That feeling when you're trying to justify to your wallet to buy a new box of minis, and then GW simultaneously converts to a cheaper method of production and raises prices across the board.
And thereafter considers a change of box art worthy of a 5-10% price hike.
Started in 5th ed when the Black reach starter was on $50. Played plenty of games at home, LGS and tournies.
6th comes around and I keep playing, but rules + WAACCAH = no fun.
7th come out 22 months later, I read the rules and "DEEP SIX" them.
Playing Dropzone commander now . If you want a game with a solid no swiss cheese holes in it to exploit = try dropzone commander (DzC). Plus hawk wargames has great online support for the game.
I was introduced to 40k at the end of 2nd edition. I started playing in 3rd ed, and played all the way through until I started to taper off in 5th. Played maybe three games of 6th and was not impressed. In between the editions I also started to play Warhammer Fantasy around the time the Lizardmen first came out. I also had some Skaven that I looted from my brother. Stopped playing Fantasy around 7th ed I think , shortly after the new book came out that got rid of the special spawnings . I also started playing Flames of War British infantry company, For King and Country! Whichever edition that was.
I have bought a lot of 40k, Fantasy and Flames of War, although I for the most part stopped play Warhammer, I still collected a lot of models. I now vow to not buy GW anymore (it won’t last, I keep making up excuses ) simply because over the years I have seen a slight quality drop and a major price increase. Plus the short turnaround from 6th to 7th, they started to release sloppy rules adding super heavies and D weapons into normal games, and over all silly things. This is where some of the excuses come in, I am going to buy some misc boxes of guard and empire to build three warbands for Necromunda and I am also going to build a 30k army. Hay, its Forge World, not GW.
We now try to get games in every other Friday. We play mostly FoW, FoW Vietnam, X-Wing, some Force on Force and Battlefleet Gothic. I got a Necromunda book for 4 bucks at the FLGS so I am going to build up some gangs for us to play with, to further break up the game cycle. I also hoping we can start playing so old hammer, go back to the 5th ed 40k rules.
I have looked into some other games but none of them really intrigue me. Plus we don’t have a very large playing group here so most games would just be with my brother and friend. I’m not really into the other models like Infinity and Malifaux so I’m just going to stay away from them. I do like the Warmachine models but the other two really aren’t into it all that much. On the other hand me and my brother are considering Dust miniatures, they look exciting!
Kirasu wrote: To me it's about how a company treats their customers. Yes, GW has terrible rules and hgh prices but what really gets me is that it's become apparent in the last few years that at BEST they think nothing of their customers or fans and at worse they have active contempt for them.
That's what really turned me away from GW
Same here. I can look over a lot, but I can't look over that.
That feeling when you're trying to justify to your wallet to buy a new box of minis, and then GW simultaneously converts to a cheaper method of production and raises prices across the board.
And thereafter considers a change of box art worthy of a 5-10% price hike.
Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.
Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.
And why should we care what another company with a completely different business model does or doesn't do?
Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.
Because there's a lot more to an Aston Martin than just making a Mondeo and adding a new badge. They tried that with the Cygnet (Toyota IQ) and it didn't go down well. Whilst AM's use Ford parts, it's entirely re-engineered where needed. There's no point re-tooling for components if you have access to suitable components already, it saves you money and time to focus on the value add stuff.
I have not left GW for good, I don't think. The Ork Codex has, however, been the final nail in the coffin of my purchasing for the immediate future.
I still intend to build and paint what I have in spare time and enjoy that part of my collection as much as possible.
The wife and I are about to get into Star Trek Attack Wing, which will, from all I am reading, provide a much better gateway drug to wargaming for her than 40k was doing (so many books and minor rules she became quickly uninspired, along with her growing resentment of how much of our money it eats). She will be starting a Dominion fleet and I'll be bringing Romulans.
It goes to show the level of nerd I am that I am already sourcing minis for more correct scale for home games and working out alternative minis for timeline inaccurate models (we want to bring DS9 era fleets).
Also my love of fishkeeping is calling me back in a big way and I'm attempting to secure a 180gallon tank 2nd hand atm, which will be all sorts of money sink unto it's self, at least initially.
Aston Martins are built using Ford Mondeo/Vauxhall Vectra parts and you pay a premium for AMs! Not sticking up for GW there, just pointing out driving down costs whilst inflating profits isn't a purely GW symptom.
My Jag is also made from some Mondeo parts. Find me a production model Mondeo that is as comfortable, or as quick as my Jag, and I'll sell all my other games systems and play 40k exclusively...
Cars are made of all sorts of parts. I had a Wolseley 1500 once and was surprised to find the suspensions were from MG.
Most likely. I got one and it's great. But then Mondeos are pretty good to begin with and from what I can gather the X-Type is something like 90% re-engineered. Even if it's using Mondeo parts it's a very different beast.
It's worth noting that the Mondeo ST220 is probably faster than the X-Type 3.0 V6, but the rest of them won't be as fast as the Jag equivalents, or as luxurious. Or have 4x4
I enjoy burning off the boy racers in my 'old man' car. All below 70 mph and legal of course.
I do the same in my Audi Ohh, and because I'm near a US military installation, I "get" the privilege of showing all those morons who dump 30-50k into a Mustang, Camaro or some other Pony car, that they ain't very special
Have gotten into a lot of heated discussions with people in this thread! Despite the fact that I think a lot of the criticism of GW on the forums is unjustified, I do think there are a couple of problems which have led to me looking at alternatives [so far X-Wing and Infinity].
The first big issue for me is the IGOUGO system. I find it very difficult to immerse myself in the narrative when I could walk the dog, have a cigarette, and come back without it influencing the game. Horde armies only exacerbate this problem.
The second is the amount of time it takes to play. I've played a number of 7 or 8 hour games, and I'll be honest, by the end I just want the game to finish, win or lose. 3 hours is about the sweet spot for me, any more and I'm brain-dead for 48 hours afterwards.
So, partially left GW [although it is very difficult to get a game of Infinity/X-Wing], and still flirting with a few game systems,
When I first started dabbling in x wing, I had no opponents apart from the wife. A post on dakka, and a search on Facebook turned up enough local opponents to start up a 12 person league, with one around the corner!
A little bit of legwork went a very long way for me. Hope you find some opponents. I'm finding the game a breath of fresh air.
tyrannosaurus wrote: The first big issue for me is the IGOUGO system. I find it very difficult to immerse myself in the narrative when I could walk the dog, have a cigarette, and come back without it influencing the game. Horde armies only exacerbate this problem.
The second is the amount of time it takes to play. I've played a number of 7 or 8 hour games, and I'll be honest, by the end I just want the game to finish, win or lose. 3 hours is about the sweet spot for me, any more and I'm brain-dead for 48 hours afterwards.
Both large problems with enjoying the game for sure. Systems like deadzones limited activations per player until all units have been activated is much more engaging. The rapid turns of Dreadball is really engaging. 15-20 minute games of Dreadball let you smash out a few, trying different teams and tactics without a loss of tactical depth. Both games scale from one to 6 or so player with no problems, but of course an increase in time required that's well worth it.
A while ago some of us were working on a Deadzone 40K conversion... I let my involvement lapse due to health issues that I hope to resolve soon, but if we ever get it finished it will be a great way to play 40k at the skirmish level. 40k is awesome, GWs tabletop rules are not.
Warpath v3? is coming out soon which will hopefully provide a nice, clean mass combat ruleset for us to use because there's definitely something to be said for large scale 28mm combat.
Make sure you don't discount the problems others have with the game just because you don't share them though. A little empathy goes a long way ; )
Eggs wrote: When I first started dabbling in x wing, I had no opponents apart from the wife. A post on dakka, and a search on Facebook turned up enough local opponents to start up a 12 person league, with one around the corner!
A little bit of legwork went a very long way for me. Hope you find some opponents. I'm finding the game a breath of fresh air.
Yep forums are how I've found gamers to play with, along with recruiting IRL and PC gamer friends. The smaller games like Dreadball and Deadzone, X-wing no doubt too are so much easier to sell people on. The dakka player finder sounds good, but thankfully my state has it's own tabletop forum that's very active, managing multiple groups, interaction from shops and so on so that's been great. Not a dig at those that enjoy gaming in shops, but it's really not my thing - I much prefer clubs and games organised online to be played at houses. More relaxed, easier to organise etc.
tyrannosaurus wrote: The first big issue for me is the IGOUGO system. I find it very difficult to immerse myself in the narrative when I could walk the dog, have a cigarette, and come back without it influencing the game. Horde armies only exacerbate this problem.
The second is the amount of time it takes to play. I've played a number of 7 or 8 hour games, and I'll be honest, by the end I just want the game to finish, win or lose. 3 hours is about the sweet spot for me, any more and I'm brain-dead for 48 hours afterwards.
Both large problems with enjoying the game for sure. Systems like deadzones limited activations per player until all units have been activated is much more engaging. The rapid turns of Dreadball is really engaging. 15-20 minute games of Dreadball let you smash out a few, trying different teams and tactics without a loss of tactical depth. Both games scale from one to 6 or so player with no problems, but of course an increase in time required that's well worth it.
This is a similar situation to Malifaux and Helldorado... In Helldorado especially, how you do from Turn 1, affects the initiative phase of Turn 2, and Turn 2 goes to 3, etc. Beyond turn 1, the initiative can shift wildly, depending on your actions, etc. Malifaux is fairly similar in that there's no real "set" order of play, the person who got the better initiative and went first will always go first, and each player alternates actions until all models have been activated.
For me IGOUGO is not inherently bad as long as a) one turn's worth of movements can't significantly cripple an enemy without a chance of them fighting back and b) one turn won't take one million years to finish.
IGOUGO has the advantage of simplicity, though given the amount of complexity in a lot of the rest of the rules, I suspect it is there because the designers in 1980 could not think of anything better.
There are many other games which use IGOUGO. Often they mix up the turn sequence with things like charge reactions and defensive firing, which prevent it belonging all to the phasing player. Fantasy and 40K have incorporated some of these ideas in recent editions.
A skirmish level game however is arguably more suitable to use the kind of card activation system used in various historical wargames. It would be easy to introduce it as an option. There are a number of different ways of using the basic idea.
The Maelstrom cards are a nod in that direction. They allow the player to game the objectives rather than the unit tactics. I do not think that approach suits a short, skirmish level game.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Malifaux is fairly similar in that there's no real "set" order of play, the person who got the better initiative and went first will always go first, and each player alternates actions until all models have been activated.
In Malifaux Initiative is flipped for each turn, so there's no guarantee who goes first. You can burn a soul stone to cheap the initiative flip if you really want first activation though.
Even then, with the alternating activations you're never waiting long between actions, and you can easily spend most of that time thinking about what you're going to do next anyway as there's always a lot going on.
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
This is a similar situation to Malifaux and Helldorado... In Helldorado especially, how you do from Turn 1, affects the initiative phase of Turn 2, and Turn 2 goes to 3, etc. Beyond turn 1, the initiative can shift wildly, depending on your actions, etc. Malifaux is fairly similar in that there's no real "set" order of play, the person who got the better initiative and went first will always go first, and each player alternates actions until all models have been activated.
heartserenade wrote:For me IGOUGO is not inherently bad as long as a) one turn's worth of movements can't significantly cripple an enemy without a chance of them fighting back and b) one turn won't take one million years to finish.
Although I still prefer Infinity's ARO approach.
Kilkrazy wrote:IGOUGO has the advantage of simplicity, though given the amount of complexity in a lot of the rest of the rules, I suspect it is there because the designers in 1980 could not think of anything better.
There are many other games which use IGOUGO. Often they mix up the turn sequence with things like charge reactions and defensive firing, which prevent it belonging all to the phasing player. Fantasy and 40K have incorporated some of these ideas in recent editions.
I've found that all activation mechanics have their place if they serve the objective of the rules.
-For a Fast Play game like KoW, that also has a damage accumulation system for units and no casualty removal, a very strict IGOUGO speeds up the game while not giving the starting player too much of an advantage.
-For a skirmish game like SBH, IGOUGO is used, but the gambling activation mechanic makes it less certain and it doesn't overly slant the advantage.
-WM has a smaller number of units and many of them are quite powerfull, so "alternating activation" keeps things a bit more balanced.
-Various games use card activation. I can't speak to many of them directly, but it is a way of keeping players on their toes and making in-the-moment decisions count as much as overall strategies or listbuilding.
-Lastly, reaction mechanics such as 5150 or Tomorrow's War are designed to make players both think far ahead in terms of strategy as well as to take a lot of the results out of the hands of the player and more accurately simulate the chaos of battle.
There are others, and they all have their place. I think the only bad reaction system is one that doesn't serve the game. The other problem we face is that many folks think a given rulset's activation mechanic is bad, when it's really just not their style. Many folks don't like games that take away some of their decision making, and some don't like games that put as much emphasis on list-building as in-game-strategy. Sometimes the game is truly flawed, but in many (perhaps most?) cases it's just not your style of game.
The above is why I'm such a strong advocate of not staying within the boundaries that any game company sets. If you like the models and fluff, but not the rules, find some rules that better fit your playsyle. If you love the rules, but not the models, choose your own. Etc, etc. As long as you can find some like-minded gamers (I realize this is difficult) you don't have to buy the whole package.
Heavy Metal wrote: I see after taking a haitus from this forum it has not learned to pull its head out of its ass and only grown to have similar toxicity levels as League of Legends communities.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Maybe you have the wrong thread? I don't see any toxicity here. I see a lot of positive conversation about games we love...and one we want to love. Valid criticism isn't toxic. In fact, there hasn't been any negativity on this thread until you came along and insulted everyone. Well done.
Heavy Metal wrote: I see after taking a haitus from this forum it has not learned to pull its head out of its ass and only grown to have similar toxicity levels as League of Legends communities.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
To your right are two features you might fine handy; The Ignore feature and the Alert Mod button.
Very true, I thought he might like to talk to a Mod since people enjoying other games is "Toxic" to him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started wargaming in 1994 when I picked up the 40k 2nd edition box. I think for me, I've never really like the background of the game. I think I loved the idea of 40k much more than the reality. So I've had a long and sometimes torturous relationship with this game. I haven't quit just yet, but I'm going to get rid of a lot of my extra stuff. I figure one army for each GW game will be sufficient in the future. I'm going to stop playing, more than actually quit the game. It will be fairly easy since most of my group has already stopped playing.
Where I'm going:
All Quiet on the Martian Front: I jumped in on the Kickstarter and it has proven to be a lot of fun so far. I've mainly been doing demo games for my friends.
Drop Zone Commander: I haven't been able to get many games in so far, but I really like it. The starter set is great.
Hordes: I've had Trollbloods for a while. I kind of consider myself a "fluff" gamer because always pick my Warlock based on story over rules, because I just love Gunbjorn. I have several of the other Warlocks, but I never seem to get around to them.
I also play: Flames of War, DUST Warfare, Bolt Action, SAGA, & Black Powder.
It really is a great time for alternative war games.
Heavy Metal wrote: I see after taking a haitus from this forum it has not learned to pull its head out of its ass and only grown to have similar toxicity levels as League of Legends communities.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
I think you should be stripped of your user name...
Also, believe that comparing the Dakka community to League of Legends is mentioned specifically in the forum rules as an instant banning offence?
Do non-wargaming stuff count? Because now i'm spending things on other hobbies that are used to be reserved for 40k, since I don't need to spend much on the other wargames. Nowadays I'm taking up archery and boxing so my hobby money now goes to making my bow more expensive.
Well this is kind of a wargames forum so probably people are not so interested in your spending on archery. (I arched at university for a few years. Fun sport.)
You can air that kind of stuff in the OT Forum if you like.
There's always something huh heartserenade? I got into music in my teens; first guitar, then bass, then drums, then recording and production. I now have a wee music studio that has a bigger insurance policy on it than my house does... You think miniatures are expensive? Try pricing up some decent microphones and preamps!
I started in 2nd edition, but didn't start playing heavily until 3rd. I played a lot of 4th and quit when 5th edition CSM codex came out. I have looked at restarting each time a new edition of 40K or a new CSM codex is published, but as of now the army is still sitting on the shelf.
I played a bit of 6th edition(?) Fantasy and have quit that as well and would like to sell my army.
I am currently playing MtG most heavily and have a good play group. I still throw some money to Privateer Press as well for Warmachine/Hordes, even though I don't play.
heartserenade wrote: Do non-wargaming stuff count? Because now i'm spending things on other hobbies that are used to be reserved for 40k, since I don't need to spend much on the other wargames. Nowadays I'm taking up archery and boxing so my hobby money now goes to making my bow more expensive.
To this end, I've saved some money by playing rugby...
However, more in line with this topic, while I left the GW games, and picked up some others (as mentioned in my previous posts), but I've also spent GW levels of money on 1:48 scale military aircraft, 1:24 scale automobiles and the like (does that count, your Royal Modded Highnesses?)
I dropped GW in 2005, mostly due to the 'this thing in the game doesn't exist any more' policies. Price and White Dwarf being terrible helped. I moved onto Confrontation (then dropped it again when the plastics happened), Flames of War and Warmachine.
I'm currently selling off bits of my final 40k army (a once 10,000+ point Imperial Guard army) to pay for new gaming projects. I'll keep my Squats and my converted carapace armoured Imperial Guard for sentimental reasons but every thing else will eventually go.
FeindusMaximus wrote: Started in 5th ed when the Black reach starter was on $50. Played plenty of games at home, LGS and tournies.
6th comes around and I keep playing, but rules + WAACCAH = no fun.
7th come out 22 months later, I read the rules and "DEEP SIX" them.
Playing Dropzone commander now . If you want a game with a solid no swiss cheese holes in it to exploit = try dropzone commander (DzC). Plus hawk wargames has great online support for the game.
I'm thinking of trying games other than WH40k but I don't want to invest in a whole new bunch of supplies and terrain if I get into it. What games could I play using my modelling supplies and terrain I have for WH40K?
I was thinking Warmahorde, but I like the more military structure of WH40K. Also being more affordable is a huge plus.
I was thinking Warmahorde, but I like the more military structure of WH40K. Also being more affordable is a huge plus.
This is somewhat silly, as yes, Warmahords models are more expensive per model... BUT!!!!!!! you need fewer models to play Warmachine/Hordes.
As to other games to play that can use 40k terrain: Infinity, Malifaux, Helldorado, I believe Dropzone commander is the right scale.... Basically, you're looking for anything that is roughly 28mm scale (Malifaux is more like 32mm, but it's not "heroic" scale, so they are more appropriately proportioned, thus they are roughly the same size as other 28mm models)
FWIW I still play Warmahordes, I've also explored Bolt Action, and decided to kick up some historical Ancients using I'm not sure what rules yet :p with my brother for at home only games.
I still am tempted by 40k, I really am. Just I'm not sure why. It's actually a very weird thing. I constantly think of trying 40k again (since like December), but I never quite cross that threshold to bother; I think it's either because I look at what I'd have to spend to get a viable army, or because I see how the rules appear to work, and lately it's because I have other games I am playing or want to play and don't have a lot of disposable income so I don't want to be paying for 2+ expensive games.
I was thinking Warmahorde, but I like the more military structure of WH40K. Also being more affordable is a huge plus.
This is somewhat silly, as yes, Warmahords models are more expensive per model... BUT!!!!!!! you need fewer models to play Warmachine/Hordes.
The idea that 40k is more affordable than Warmahordes is a complete joke. The prices run about the same, but things mean a lot more in Warmahordes: A unit can change your entire gameplay or add new tactical opportunities while in 40k it tends to just be something to soak wounds. Also, it feels like you get more value out of Warmahordes as you typically only buy one of a unit, so you don't feel cheated by having to buy two or more of the same kind of unit. There is also the fact that you can get started much cheaper in Warmahordes so you can attract new players and have them slowly build up forces than expecting them to fork over a couple of hundred bucks to play a real game.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Also my love of fishkeeping is calling me back in a big way and I'm attempting to secure a 180gallon tank 2nd hand atm, which will be all sorts of money sink unto it's self, at least initially.
Try not to burn your house down.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Despite the fact that I think a lot of the criticism of GW on the forums is unjustified
No, no, no. You don't get to just say that and then leave it hanging. If you've got reasons for why you disagree with "a lot of the criticism of GW", then please go through and tell everyone what they are.
robam45 wrote: I'm thinking of trying games other than WH40k but I don't want to invest in a whole new bunch of supplies and terrain if I get into it. What games could I play using my modelling supplies and terrain I have for WH40K?
I was thinking Warmahorde, but I like the more military structure of WH40K. Also being more affordable is a huge plus.
A lot of terrain is pretty generic. A hill is a hill is a hill.
A neo-gothic cathedral encrusted with skulls looks pretty 40K specific but it still works as a building if you don't need specifically themed terrain. I mean, you wouldn't be going too far wrong to use 40K terrain for say the ruins of European cities at the end of WW2. It would look a bit ridiculous for an Ancient Greek set up though.
Paints and so on work with any models so don't worry about them.
If you get something like the Dropzone Commander starter set, you get some terrain with it: - 2x Urban Streets Posters, will join together in 4 different ways to create a 48”x33” road layout - Both posters feature stunning artwork on the reverse face! - 10 x Pre-cut, pre-folded card buildings in 10 different designs
So while you cannot use your terrain with it as such, you do get some new stuff to use with it anyway ; )
I believe Dropzone commander is the right scale....
Dropzone Commander is 10mm so realistically only 28mm scaled hills and possibly water features would be usable. It is easy to get terrain for DZC though due to the starter set.
Fantasy Flights X Wing has me hooked. It's a propper beer n pretzel game with little admin needed. I find the fact that the minis are prepainted helps me out too, just throw down a board and get at it. I have become tired and bored of GWs fiddling at the edges of rule sets, reducing their playability and making unbalanced (I win) games.
Saying that, I'm feeling some more FW love recently.
I started in 2nd edition 40k and played avidly through 3rd, only played one or two games of fourth edition. I finally bought he rules for sixth last year not even looking at seventh. I really began playing fantasy before all of 40k as a friends father brought it back from England and would run campaigns. At one point I've had every army out their in both ranges and every gang in necromunda as well as most of the common bloodbowl armies.
I left due to the rules getting stupid, models getting overpriced but most importantly because it wasn't fun anymore. The new meta of each rulebook coming out and hosing every other army out there was frustrating. Mono build armies, and overly competitive people ruining a fun beer and pretzels game.
I've moved on to x-wing, Kings of War, and recently bought deadzone . They are just fun quick games that I can get into and not spend a ton on them. Plus the rules are easier, and my kids are getting old enough to learn and play the game too.
Wish i could get back even a fraction of what I've bought from GW over the years
robam45 wrote: I'm thinking of trying games other than WH40k but I don't want to invest in a whole new bunch of supplies and terrain if I get into it. What games could I play using my modelling supplies and terrain I have for WH40K?
I left due to the rules getting stupid, models getting overpriced but most importantly because it wasn't fun anymore. The new meta of each rulebook coming out and hosing every other army out there was frustrating. Mono build armies, and overly competitive people ruining a fun beer and pretzels game.
Well, there's the train of thought, wot I tentatively subscribe to, that the rules and mechanics of GW's two core games are tailored to their target market. I.e. 12-14-year-olds. Success in the game largely boils down to memorising or referring to loads of special rules and tables, and pre-game strategy in the form of listbuilding (and paying to win?); so that in-game you can just wind up yer space marines and watch 'em go, with tactical on-the-fly decisions mostly reduced to just where to move to get your guns in range or get out of range of their guns. ('forward', 'back' and 'behind that wall') Add the grimdark, superpowered heroes 'n' monsters settings and it all apparently appeals to younger minds, which makes sense, and I know it all once did to me.
Which is fine, and also fine if playing with beer 'n' pretzels without too much taxing thought in-game; but if you're fed up with the rules and meta, and moving to less granular, more tactical offerings like X-Wing and KoW, it seems like a natural progression.
Me, I'm lucky if I get more than one game a month, if that, so for me gaming is more an 'event' than casual 'beer 'n' pretzels'. I don't want to waste it on rules I've left behind almost as far as I've left snakes 'n' ladders or top trumps.
I believe Dropzone commander is the right scale....
Dropzone Commander is 10mm so realistically only 28mm scaled hills and possibly water features would be usable. It is easy to get terrain for DZC though due to the starter set.
Just remembered it was Dust Tactics I was thinking of
Yonan wrote: If you get something like the Dropzone Commander starter set, you get some terrain with it:
- 2x Urban Streets Posters, will join together in 4 different ways to create a 48”x33” road layout
- Both posters feature stunning artwork on the reverse face!
- 10 x Pre-cut, pre-folded card buildings in 10 different designs
So while you cannot use your terrain with it as such, you do get some new stuff to use with it anyway ; )
It's worth mentioning Infinity will be following this route as well. The 2 player starter they've been slowly teasing will contain the same foldable terrain and game mats.
robam45 wrote: I'm thinking of trying games other than WH40k but I don't want to invest in a whole new bunch of supplies and terrain if I get into it. What games could I play using my modelling supplies and terrain I have for WH40K?
And your current minis?
Warpath
Victory Decision: Future Combat
Stargrunt
5150
etc.
We have a number of members of the club that use 40k miniatures and terrain in games other than 40k.
Warpath is a great one. If you want to play really big battles (3000 points plus) in a reasonable amount of time, search for the warpath 1.0 rules. It's basically Kings of War in space, but they have rules that correspond to most 40k armies.
Another rulest worth checking out if you already have 40k is In The Emperor's Name. It's a free small skirmish ruleset in the 40k universe complete with army lists and a campaign system. Stick to the 2nd edition though as the 3rd isn't quite ready for primetime.
http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/ Other games that our club has used 40k figures with include…
Tomorrow's War. A very gritty and realistic take on future combat. VERY different from 40k with a reaction system that is deep, but not as comprehensive as 5150.
Yonan wrote: If you get something like the Dropzone Commander starter set, you get some terrain with it:
- 2x Urban Streets Posters, will join together in 4 different ways to create a 48”x33” road layout
- Both posters feature stunning artwork on the reverse face!
- 10 x Pre-cut, pre-folded card buildings in 10 different designs
So while you cannot use your terrain with it as such, you do get some new stuff to use with it anyway ; )
It's worth mentioning Infinity will be following this route as well. The 2 player starter they've been slowly teasing will contain the same foldable terrain and game mats.
Never miss any opportunity to miss this new forthcoming starter set!
Everyone here has pretty much given up on 40k - the scene is pretty much dead in all the clubs. The vast majority just find it unplayable, and we just do not have the time to homebrew rules and patches for the broken ruleset.
Even just for fun, 'beer and pretzels' type games it doesn't work anymore and is just frustrating. I think the consensus is "Why bother investing so much time into the broken system when so many other games are out there that are cheaper, less time consuming and with infinitely better rulesets?" All 40k seems to really have now is the fluff - which is vast and fantastic - which I think is why Dark Heresy is becoming popular.
It's sad really as almost everyone got into gaming through 40k/WHFB, so seeing the sorry state of the game now is frustrating for everyone.
As for games I have gotten into now: The new 2nd edition ruleset for Dystopian Wars is a massive improvement on the 1st, and so far I am absolutely loving it. The new wave models coming out by Spartan Games are fantastic. It's cheap to get into (you don't need much scenary at all with naval and aerial games, just a few iceburgs on a blue mat suffice) and storage space is never an issue, as this is an epic scale game.
Malifaux; Easier ruleset than DW, games are quicker, again the storage spoace required is minimal. And you don't have to spend months painting an army. The background is cool too, the mix of Horror, Wild West and Steampunk is infectious and addictive, and is represented in the models and ascetic very well. It also has a great sense of humour in the game, especially with the Gremlins faction. Moonshine drinking, pig catapulting hillbillys. Then you have Zombie hookers, killer teddy bears and giant gorillas wandering around causing chaos...What's not to like? lol
I honestly think from people i've spoken to at FLGS here that the main sticking point of 40k is how much time it takes up, just getting an army together and painting it all can take forever, especially if you go IG or Orks...I think with older people (late 20's 30's) this becomes much more of an issue, as obviously you have more commitments as you get older and perhaps less time to dedicate to gaming.
I think it might be a case of changing demeographics (an ageing fanbase) more than anything, and GW are just not adapting to that, or perhaps simply cannot adapt to it.
FifteenHours wrote: Everyone here has pretty much given up on 40k - the scene is pretty much dead in all the clubs. The vast majority just find it unplayable, and we just do not have the time to homebrew rules and patches for the broken ruleset.
Even just for fun, 'beer and pretzels' type games it doesn't work anymore and is just frustrating. I think the consensus is "Why bother investing so much time into the broken system when so many other games are out there that are cheaper, less time consuming and with infinitely better rulesets?" All 40k seems to really have now is the fluff - which is vast and fantastic - which I think is why Dark Heresy is becoming popular.
100% my view on this. I and a friend spend more time discussing lore and imagining the universe than actually playing a game (which is pretty significant as I haven't seen a 1.5k game be completed in under three hours for about 5 years, including numerous T3 tables). We do, however occasionally use the 6e ruleset to create a mission (usually a kill-team variant), ignore as much BS from the book as possible, and just enjoy some bloodshed from two painted armies. Any purchases we make for GW products comes from ebay.
Dolls, terrifying little dolls!
Once upon a time they were second of the two hobbies I had, but now, since I largely dropped off from playing warhammer (I've not touched 40k since, well the day before 6th came out is the last time I played)
I've dabbled in fantasy but any mini's I get aren't GW.
So now instead of tanks and evil space elves, its those and tiny clothes.
This one costs more then a land raider.
To be fair not all my dolls have swords and guns and...other violent weapons, mostly just her and her bff/gf
Oh and there's a lot of forging a narrative in this hobby.
The last GW model I bought was the IG Valkyrie back when it was originally released for the army but I continued to play 40K until just after 5th edition was released. My gaming group started playing it and found it to be a tedious, unfun chore.
About six months before the 5th ed release one of my gaming group convinced me to give Warmachine/ Hordes a try and so when I stopped playing 40K I just naturally moved to Wm/H full time as my main game. Eventually all of the gaming group followed suit.
Occasionally I get in a game of X-wing but I never bought into it myself. Also, about eight months ago I picked up some Infinity models to paint since they looked so sweet and now I'm starting to get into that as well. While I haven't played a game just yet I have spent a bunch of time trying to get the rules down.
The last model I bought for my 40k was a dreadknight for my GK.
When it had just come out. I stopped playing the game not long after. I still have the army, and many of the models from the other armies I also used to play in 40k - but not enough of either to make a battleforged detachment - I could use them all to make a 2000pt unbound list - but I think 7th ed sucks balls.
I started playing Infinity (with infinity models) and Tomorrow's War with my 40k stuff.
I left GW in 2011 during one of the price hikes. I also had not enjoyed the games of 8th edition WHFB I had played, and it seems like a lot of local WHFB players agreed as their numbers dropped sharply.
I was also dissatisfied with their lack of support for specialist games and their near-hostility directed toward the internet, their fans, and even independent retailers. I've been tempted to return from time to time but haven't yet, and as time goes on it gets easier to resist temptation.
I had almost always dabbled in non-GW games but never got into them like I got into 40K. In 2011 I bit the bullet and dove into Warmahordes full bore, and while i haven't been able to play as much as I want to over the past couple of years, it's my primary game and I'm quite satisfied with it.
Frankly, right now, there's too many games I'm interested in and even if I had the money to buy every miniature I could possibly want, I wouldn't have the time to paint them and play all the games. As it currently stands, though, I plan on picking up some Infinity, Warzone: Resurrection, Wargods of Aegyptus and perhaps some Malifaux, too.
The main factor for me playing these other games is the lower cost for a full force for a standard-sized game (number of models nonwithstanding, though Warzone resembles earlier editions of 40K in scale and Wargods is like a smaller WHFB, which is a bonus for me; I have no desire to paint 100+ of the same model), and for me, the gameplay found in those games is more enjoyable. I also find Warmahordes to be more well-balanced than either 40K or WHFB.
RatBot wrote: The main factor for me playing these other games is the lower cost for a full force for a standard-sized game (number of models nonwithstanding, though Warzone resembles earlier editions of 40K in scale and Wargods is like a smaller WHFB, which is a bonus for me; I have no desire to paint 100+ of the same model)
This is my prime factor now when I look at games. Skirmish games are my cup of tea these days. Small initial investment for a playable force, cheap to expand your force, and the ability to spend more time on each model when painting. Painting my Tyranids has tought me that I simply don't want to paint that many models to field an entirely painted force. My Vampire Counts are destined to remain in a box for eternity, I feel.
Right now I'm looking to branch out of Infinity, into Malifaux. A starter, and the rulebook, for 80% of what I'd have paid for a new large Tyranid. Bonus points for doing new kits in plastic. That's my kind of value.
Gave up on GW when 7th ed dropped. Had gotten increasingly disillusioned with 6th because of the loose and sloppy ruleset which led to greater imbalances, much more clamoring about comp, increasingly boring lists and ridicolously time-consuming games.
When 7th dropped and I saw that practically nothing bad was changed and that they went even further into "Make up your own rules and make PEW PEW noises" I knew I wouldn`t pick up 40k for a long time.
To play without planning COMP for hours with your opponent, you now also have to buy so much stuff all the time. For me, it is not the price of individual items that is the problem, it is the constant power creep which means the unit you just finished painting can be made unusable for 5 years which gets me.
The increasing childishness of their miniatures and the removal off everything non-GW from their communication also help pushing me away.
I dont want to continously spend money, time and shelf-space trying to keep up anymore.
It is sad to see how much wrong they continue to do. Even my former hardcore pro-GW fanboy friends have stopped playing and collecting GW.
I already had Warmachine and FoW, so I just dont split my focus into 40k anymore. Currently warmachine has my fancy. In addition, I play more boardgames as non-tabletop friends can easily join in the fun.
TLDR
Reasons for quitting GW:
1: Horrible unbalanced ruleset
1b: leading to boring lists
1c: and tedious games
1d: and COMP
1e: and lots of unusable and overpowered units
1f: and insane amounts of money, time and space needed to be able to keep up
2: Horrible PR
2b: removal of all non-GW 2c: denial of internet/customer feedback
2d: lawsuits
RatBot wrote: The main factor for me playing these other games is the lower cost for a full force for a standard-sized game (number of models nonwithstanding, though Warzone resembles earlier editions of 40K in scale and Wargods is like a smaller WHFB, which is a bonus for me; I have no desire to paint 100+ of the same model)
This is my prime factor now when I look at games. Skirmish games are my cup of tea these days. Small initial investment for a playable force, cheap to expand your force, and the ability to spend more time on each model when painting. Painting my Tyranids has tought me that I simply don't want to paint that many models to field an entirely painted force. My Vampire Counts are destined to remain in a box for eternity, I feel.
Right now I'm looking to branch out of Infinity, into Malifaux. A starter, and the rulebook, for 80% of what I'd have paid for a new large Tyranid. Bonus points for doing new kits in plastic. That's my kind of value.
Like many others on here I haven't left GW, just stopped buying their over priced plastic, so what I did with all the money I wasn't wasting on them I went into:
Dystopian wars- steampunk syfi game with fun rules that are not complicated for the average IQ person (like me).
Flames of war- a historical "fantasy" game with well written/tested rules and decent minis.
And soon to get into Battletech.
I still play 40k and fantasy when I get the chance, it's just that I no longer feel the need to be connected to them.
Kilkrazy wrote: Time and again price is mentioned as a key problem with Games Workshop.
Perhaps they finally have exceeded the limit of inelasticity of their consumers.
I used to be able to help direct folks to armies I thought they'd like if they approached a game I was watching or playing in and were interested in starting.
Last Friday I had that happen again for the first time in years, a young guy (like 13 or so), came up to a 40k game I was watching and started asking about getting started in the game. I couldn't, in good conscience, point him towards Games Workshop games. To start it would be at minimum $125 (if he got one of the two people starters with the rulebook), and he would end up with two unbalanced armies that he would have significant problems getting games with outside of the starter.
If he decides he likes one of the armies, he'd have to spend at minimum $50.00 (MSRP) for the main rulebook for the faction, and then probably drop another $300.00+ more on models to get to a decent sized list.
Telling a kid that he'd have to spend around $500.00 just to start in the game was a bit hard to swallow. Meanwhile if he went with say, WM/H the buy-in is $50-$100 (battlebox or 2p starter), and no codex, and then he can step up in army size at around $20-$80 per army size bracket (unless he goes whole hog and gets a colossal)...
I'm still in GW and I love and hate different parts of the game, just like I always have and always will.
I'm actually leaving PP games, mostly, because the things I hate about it are far outweighing the things I like, but that's not the point of the thread.
Games I am trying to get to popularity in the Dallas area as OTHERS leave GW, though, are:
Dropzone Commander
Dystopian Wars
Firestorm Armada - because everyone needs more spaceship games!
I haven't left GW, I still play but with the stuff I already have. I just haven't bought anything since the Space Marine release, bar the odd model for painting. I can't justify the expense.
I recommend Deadzone. Easy to learn, quick games, much cheaper and I like the models (Restic is horrible, however). One thing I particularly like about DZ is the clarity of the rules. The main rulebook is a bit confusingly laid out (solely in terms of design) but I haven't really had any situations where there could be an argument over RAW vs RAI or whatever. When I don't know what happens at a particular time I just look it up and it's there in black and white.
I haven't left GW, but I'm definitely 'on a break' with it after the 7th edition dropped. I have deliberately not purchased the new rulebook, and have made the decision that if I do purchase any more 40k models, I will buy them secondhand, because they lose value faster than a new car.
The reasons for my falling-out with GW:
-They are turning over books far faster than they need to, and they are designed to give advantages to new units purely for marketing, at the expense of balance. A new core rulebook in two years? Not gonna happen.
-Warhammer Visions is atrocious. Who thought that was a good idea?
-Minis are getting much more expensive, though this isn't huge for me because I have more unfinished projects than I could finish in quite a few years.
-Balance is completely out of whack. Unless you play strictly with a group of non-competitive gamers who don't break lists, it's no fun at all.
The reasons I'm still holding out hope for the future:
-I'm invested. 12 years of collecting and playing has left me with enough models and associated stuff to comfortably fill a 20ft cargo container as my hobby corner. Time, effort, and money.
-I still love the universe, despite the fact that the fluff is being recycled. I know the 'minute to midnight' is GW's tag-line for the state of the universe, but there are still ways they could advance the plot of things or expound on certain wars, and thus add new content.
-I really like the miniatures, honestly. The sculpts aren't the best perhaps, but I do like the overall look of most of the 40k armies.
-I think GW is close enough to going under that they're going to have to make some hard decisions to fix their system and repair relations with their customer base, or be simply bought out. So, while I won't buy anything new for a while, I'm not going to unload everything just yet.
I'm like a number of posters on here- I haven't completely forsaken GW and its flagship 40k, but I am in a bit of a odd spot since I'm refusing to get the 7th edition (and hence, all the books that go with it).
I've been learning Dystopian Wars and have enjoyed that quite a bit actually! I was surprised, it was the first game I really got into beyond 40k and the models are pretty damn good for not a ton of money!
I'm also really fascinated with All Quiet on the Martian Front, I'm going to pick that up when I have a chance or maybe visit GenCon since I live so close to it, and see how the game works.
I don't really want to play more than 3 games, and I prefer them to all be noticeably different scales, plus I am "limited" by what I can fit in my glass case. I'm still quite attached to my Dark Eldar and Ork armies, so I've been exploring the idea of "old-GW" and trying to get people into one of the older editions, like 3rd or 4th, where the books are very cheap and the armies aren't as big (since point-inflation hadn't gotten so far yet).
My final tallies are in and post-40k I have netted myself a nearly complete Ariadna Merovingian Sectorial (I'm missing one or two models, it's nearly 1000pts!, includes Anaconda), a complete p/e Baldur Tier List circle army save the Woldwrath and one Sentry Stone unit, 2 Malifaux Crew boxes plus 3 add-on boxes, and some sprinkles of love to my Cryx like Deathjack and some bile thralls.
And I still had a fist full of cash left over spent on other personal items/stashed away.
I cannot see going back to GW as-is because of the mind blowing amount of money I've sunk into one game. I'd be down for a skirmish game set in the GrimDark 41st Millenium (one were fielding A terminator is like OH EM GEE!), but never again army unless it's smaller scale.
Best of luck to everyone else and their endeavors. Maybe we'll cross paths!
TheKbob wrote: I cannot see going back to GW as-is because of the mind blowing amount of money I've sunk into one game. I'd be down for a skirmish game set in the GrimDark 41st Millenium (one were fielding A terminator is like OH EM GEE!), but never again army unless it's smaller scale.
I've been talking with a friend recently about doing something like this with DoW 2 size squads (3 tac marines and a sgt, 2 assault and a sgt, ect). I think it could work with a modified version of the infinity rules treating each 'squad' as a fireteam.
TheKbob wrote: I cannot see going back to GW as-is because of the mind blowing amount of money I've sunk into one game. I'd be down for a skirmish game set in the GrimDark 41st Millenium (one were fielding A terminator is like OH EM GEE!), but never again army unless it's smaller scale.
I've been talking with a friend recently about doing something like this with DoW 2 size squads (3 tac marines and a sgt, 2 assault and a sgt, ect). I think it could work with a modified version of the infinity rules treating each 'squad' as a fireteam.
Give Deadzone a look. It's not the Grimdark 41st MIllennium but you can easily represent the different factions with GW models - Space Marines for Enforcers, Eldar for Asterians, Tyranids for Plague, Orks for...Orcs). The various faction decks can be downloaded for free as PDFs (not sure if they're exactly the same as the final retail versions, but better than nothing). It was what I immediately thought of when I saw the idea of a Terminator appearing in a game being a big deal - for example, Peacekeepers (the game's equivalent of Terminators) cost something like 20 points with the standard list being 70 points.
I've partially left GW. Haven't played a game since the 2013 Bay Area Open (First week of March) haven't bought a model since then either. I've still got plenty to paint and once in a while I do.
For me it's not price, but value for the money. Also they haven't Wow'd me with anything in quite some time. I'm pretty easy going with the rules so as bad as they are (are they? I don't know) rules weren't a factor. I'm an Eldar player first, then Dark Angels. So fifteen year old guardian plastics, no plastic aspect warriors, price creep on existing old models. All that stuff wained my enthusiasm for "the hobby". BAO was the last set of games I played, and I had a great time doing them.
So for the past year I engaged in other aspects of modeling. I had this idea to grab any type of 72nd scale model fighter (military or fantasy or etc) and have them sitting side by side for scale. They're all the same size so you can see what a TIE advance looks like sitting next to the Redtail (from Cowboy Bebop) sitting next to an F-14 Tomcat sitting next to a Macross Valkyrie. Pretty fun actually, and more than anything it was a change of pace. At the tail end of 2013 I wanted to do a robot so of course I bought like 10, 1/100 scale bots from either Gundam (not really into the show, just whatever looked cool) or Muv Luv (because there are other robots besides Gundam).
Late this May I picked up a box called "Guild's Judgement" for the Mailifaux game. Box art depicted these awesome looking Ghost Ridery guys called Death Marshall's. They looked badass, seriously, I wanted to paint them, and after looking at the box for four weeks I decided to pull the trigger and buy it. As a modeler I was appeased, because these plastics are super detailed. They're not the GW heroic scale either, so no huge faces and hands.
It's a skirmish game so every "crew" of 7-9 guys I can paint and base with a different theme. It's got magik, steampunk, horror, wildwest, martial arts so within the same game system I can build, paint, and use a wide palette of characters. This appeals to me. With this game I get to use a huge variety of colors, and I like this a painter. Not just going to the FLGS and buying three bottles of Caliban Green for the weekend. Also being a skirmish system for the same price as a small GW army you can get 2 or 3 crews of Malifaux, multiple playstyles FTW really (and you have enough product to teach your friends how to play).
After buying my first box I started going online and checking out the Wyrd website and the Malifaux wiki to get a feel for what the game was about. I like the mechanics of the game. I found out that last year they switched to a new edition and did a couple of months (6-8 weeks) of open beta so Wyrd the could get input from its player base. This also appeals to me as a player. I played my first game a couple of weeks ago and I'm playing my second game tonight. At this point I'm hooked.
Also the Double Savior for Relic Knights just came in!
So now I build and paint whatever...GW, model planes and robots, Malifaux. Like a true war gamer I've got about a dozen half finished projects on my table. I'll still play 40K if anyone wants to, but until then my nights are full.
-They are turning over books far faster than they need to, and they are designed to give advantages to new units purely for marketing, at the expense of balance.
This statement is SOOOO wrong and false. While yes they are turning over books faster, that is not a problem. I can't understand why people are saying a faster pace is bad. It's great. More to buy and you don't have to wait if you want a redo.
Now you say it's designed to give advantages and that is a false statement. What is the advantage for Orks? Tyranids? Are you sure it's done for marketing? GW admits they don't market. So how are the sales for the Pyrovore? Only a few units are considered Over Powered or unbalanced. Reading your statement you seem to be saying it's for EVERY release, and that is simply false. To say this is just lying.
I can't believe people are quitting because of a faster release schedule. I can see how some Codices are released and they have overpowered and unbalanced units, it can't be said for all. I can see why people will leave because there is no balance in 40K and you never know if the next release is going to be overpowered or just meh and boring release.
And yet DarkElf27 is now not giving GW money because of that reason you disagree with.
I think the truth of the matter is that it's about selective memory. If you believe that new = more powerful you will remember the more powerful releases and tend not to remember the meh ones. But because balance is just not there at all, each release has a higher chance of being either too powerful or too weak. And if you already are predisposed to remembering the too powerful ones, it's only natural to come to DarkElf27's conclusions.
And the end result is that he's fallen out with GW. Wrong or not.
This statement is SOOOO wrong and false. While yes they are turning over books faster, that is not a problem. I can't understand why people are saying a faster pace is bad. It's great. More to buy and you don't have to wait if you want a redo.
Yes, because I enjoy paying over $100 just to use models I've had for years, every year or so.... It is a problem, because they are trying to use a bucket to remove the water from the boat, when they need an 8000/minute pump to get this much water out.... They're putting stuff out before it is ultimately ready, and we can see this in multiple releases, and in the form of FAQs (that actually don't answer the majority of questions I've ever seen)
I'm sorry, but your statement of "faster is better for 40k, no matter what" just screams to me that you are a kid, or are still living at home and have no bills/responsibilities. Myself, I DO have bills/responsibilities, and it would be completely irresponsible for me to put down the kind of money GW is "demanding" that I do, just to play a game that I once upon a time enjoyed. I've long since gone on to "greener pastures" where the company that produces the things that i like actually accepts, and values input from it's customers.
Davor wrote:I can't understand why people are saying a faster pace is bad. It's great. More to buy
Truly, the GW hobby is buying GW products.
The faster pace is only bad if you stop to look at your purchases. If you stop to take the shrink wrap off your stuff than your doing the HOBBY(TM) wrong.
I quit when GW took me to court, accusing me of creating a model for Chapterhouse, which I never had anything to do with.
The whole situation could have been resolved by a ten minute phone call, but instead they dragged their buttocks through court for a year and half. If you think that wargaming is expensive try retaining a lawyer for a year and a half. That could have paid my entire gaming budget for the rest of my life.
I am guilty of breaking out my Mordheim stuff from time to time as I still enjoy the game and won't ever need to spend a dime on it again as they killed it, companies like Mantic or Reaper can cover models should I find myself in need.
Since I quit GW I've dabbled with Infinity, Xwing, Zombicide and now Deadzone. I also play battletech from time to time but because I felt that the things I wanted from a gaming system weren't being provided I said feth it and started making my own game line. Not the typical "I typed up these house rules to play with friends" but a stand alone game with dedicated models and funded it on kickstarter. It scratches the itch I had for quite a while, it lets me work with rules I actually enjoy using and by doing all the sculpting and casting work it satisfies my hobby appetite quite well.
For me gaming has always been about doing what you enjoy and mixing interests, not buy from one company and one company alone. GW has become a fricking bloodthirsty vampire that has no soul and is intent on leeching life from the rest of the gaming world. Which is a shame as they used to be a company I enjoyed prior to going public as it's all been headed downhill ever since.
When you look beyond the GW kiddie pool the gaming world is pretty huge and there's tons of interesting stuff out there.
For me gaming has always been about doing what you enjoy and mixing interests, not buy from one company and one company alone. GW has become a fricking bloodthirsty vampire that has no soul and is intent on leeching life from the rest of the gaming world. Which is a shame as they used to be a company I enjoyed prior to going public as it's all been headed downhill ever since.
When you look beyond the GW kiddie pool the gaming world is pretty huge and there's tons of interesting stuff out there.
For me gaming has always been about doing what you enjoy and mixing interests, not buy from one company and one company alone. GW has become a fricking bloodthirsty vampire that has no soul and is intent on leeching life from the rest of the gaming world. Which is a shame as they used to be a company I enjoyed prior to going public as it's all been headed downhill ever since.
When you look beyond the GW kiddie pool the gaming world is pretty huge and there's tons of interesting stuff out there.
Literally THE ONLY reason I haven't left GW is because I have too much invested already (playing since Rogue Trader) and I don't really want to learn a new ruleset. But I have stopped buying rules and models.
I'll occasionally venture into a friendly local for a game, but the days of getting excited about starting a new army and buying a ton of models are pretty much over. Now, the only models I paint are kitbashes of parts I already have.
A buddy of mine tried to get me into Infinity. I really dislike the N.Models = N.Orders mechanic, as it really doesn't make any sense at all, but aside from that the game play is solid. I like how shooting at enemy units is somewhat risky and the miniatures are fantastic. I dunno...
NuggzTheNinja wrote: Literally THE ONLY reason I haven't left GW is because I have too much invested already (playing since Rogue Trader) and I don't really want to learn a new ruleset. But I have stopped buying rules and models.
I'll occasionally venture into a friendly local for a game, but the days of getting excited about starting a new army and buying a ton of models are pretty much over. Now, the only models I paint are kitbashes of parts I already have.
A buddy of mine tried to get me into Infinity. I really dislike the N.Models = N.Orders mechanic, as it really doesn't make any sense at all, but aside from that the game play is solid. I like how shooting at enemy units is somewhat risky and the miniatures are fantastic. I dunno...
More powerful units, less orders. More weaker units, more orders to make up for it.
Also, since leaving GW, I've found that learning new rules is actually quite exciting! It's amazing what a rule set that doesn't hate the player does for a game.
MWHistorian wrote: Also, since leaving GW, I've found that learning new rules is actually quite exciting! It's amazing what a rule set that doesn't hate the player does for a game.
Well said that man! The wargames rules part of my bookshelf (and my hard drive) has grown a lot since I chucked 40K and FB. Part of my wargaming hobby is now collecting rules! There are a couple that turned out a bit iffy, even a bit stinky (cant stand Malifaux, f'r instance) but mostly it's been a fascinating education.
Vermis wrote: There are a couple that turned out a bit iffy, even a bit stinky (cant stand Malifaux, f'r instance) but mostly it's been a fascinating education.
As a fan of Malifaux, and not that I desire to change your mind, but what about the rules don't you like? (I'm usually curious as to why people dislike a certain rule set, aside from GW, because I personally think that they're ALL right and I also dont like GW rules )
MWHistorian wrote: Also, since leaving GW, I've found that learning new rules is actually quite exciting! It's amazing what a rule set that doesn't hate the player does for a game.
Wholeheartedly agree. I've enjoyed reading RPG systems rules since I stopped playing dnd 3.5 in mid 00's. Even never having played a game of it, I know a lot of rule systems simply because it's great fun to learn them. Most recently was 40k deathwatch which I've been pouring over and making chars for despite not playing. I haven't made the transition into reading wargame rules that I don't play yet, but I don't think it's far off.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: As a fan of Malifaux, and not that I desire to change your mind, but what about the rules don't you like? (I'm usually curious as to why people dislike a certain rule set, aside from GW, because I personally think that they're ALL right and I also dont like GW rules )
How long ya got?
First off, I'll admit that part of it is that I was caught like a deer in the headlights. The host of our regular gaming night got into Malifaux in a big way, becoming a henchman pretty quickly. Others in the group went mad for it too. Me, I wasn't completely regular attendee (much longer travel distance than others) so I mostly got by with borrowed crews and minis from the others. By the time I settled on my main master and his box-set crew, I was a bit like a noob with a 40K starter set, taking on hardcore tourney gamers.
But, I settled on C. Hoffman, and I think that's where I really started to sour on the game. There were some aspects to the game that I didn't much like anyway, reminding me of 40K in ways. The enormous heap of unique special rules on each model's card, for instance. There may be many fewer minis in a game of Malifaux but they all had a card like that, that had to be squinted at too often to see what the options were, and how exactly they were resolved, and if they triggered anything else, and what effect they'd have in any given situation. The 'combos' were an extension of that, and it's part of what put me off Warmachine for this long, too.
I have to say that I might be a grumpy old grognard, but I didn't like the aesthetic of the models either. Some interesting poses and I have to admit, clever cutting up of pieces for the plastic sprues, but overall I thought they looked too overwrought and trying too hard to be edgy and grimdark. F'r instance, I prefer the older metal of the Governor's Proxy to the new plastic. (Or what'll be the new plastic) The former is just an old guy standing there with quill and book, but I think it has more character than the latter. The new version just makes me think... Poochie. And for all the new flapping robes and Joker-grin and grr-pose and claws and floating quill, is he still just basically a tagalong who provides a couple of buffs and trip-ups?
Not to mention the trend for ludicrously long limbs, particularly legs, that seemed to appear with the new plastics. More noticeable to me after learning a few anatomical proportions for mini-sculpting. My henchman friend never noticed 'til I pointed it out!
But, I digress. Hoffman. This is where the imbalance in 1st ed really started to bite me, when I was literally invested in the game. Probably the slowest master, even with 'drawn to metal' and other tricks, in a game where mobility, rushing to the objectives and getting first licks in is very important. His starter set comes with a bunch of constructs, at a time when constructs (or at least guild constructs) were made of glass. (armor 2 and minor healing buffs aren't much cop when you've got pisspoor toughness and a CC monster wailing on you and chewing off wounds like corn on the cob) Even my henchman friend was surprised by just how fragile the hunter was, even when I stopped running it into combat and tried to use it's speed to grab objectives.
Then the Ten Thunders were released, and the henchman snapped up Mei Feng right away. Holy frickin' moley. And people think GW's power creep is bad. Talk about your mobile CC monsters. When that thing springs halfway across the board to kick your master in the face, you feel it yourself. He also used a rail golem, which was worse. Here's the thing: I also used a guild peacekeeper in some games. Both it and the rail golem were constructs, both the same 'size' in the rules, and both the same cost in soulstones. One had to use up resources in order to merely remain at it's standard power level. The other automatically generated resources which it could immediately use to give itself more power, more actions, or whatnot. Guess which one was which?
I had the peacekeeper and rail golem face off in a game, once. The rail golem charged the peacekeeper. The peacekeeper was demolished in moments, with no possibility to react. Then the rail golem turned it's attention to Hoffman and his guardian.
I like tactical games, or at least I like to think I like tactical games. Games between two equally-pointed and balanced forces (not cookie-cutter, just appropriately pointed for the power level), in which your in-game decisions actually matter. Games in which 'combos', or supported assaults, or clever maneuvering or whatever arise from the basic mechanics and universal special rules, not auto-triggered or near-automatic choices of exceptional effects. (in a game where ironically, everyone possesses at least one exceptional effect) Malifaux may be some kind of tactical game, to some people, but it didn't feel that way to me.
Maybe Hoffman is a tricky master, and you need to spend more time and brains in order to coax out his real power and tactics. I admit I got on the first couple of rungs of that ladder - I almost gained control of rail workers and the rail golem a couple of times, learned to keep constructs close by (though again, in a game where mobility is king), and even snuck a peek at Pullmyfinger once or twice. But y'know, it's bleedin' difficult when - like I say - you have Mei Fengs and rail golems and Lady Justices and things that don't need extra time and brains to run up to your characters and squash them flat. I've had a couple of games where I didn't get past turn two (see peacekeeper vs. rail golem) and couldn't see how I could have prevented it at all. Not to repeat myself, but the other crew just leapt forward and that was that. Games with that kind of powerlessness and lack of control turn me right off.
Maybe I'd be blamed as a bad loser, or a 'fluff gamer' who purposely hobbles their list. For the former: I don't think it's that. There are other games, more balanced in my view, where I haven't minded losing because of my own stupid decisions (then it's my own limitations, and those don't seem as bad, or as impossible to overcome, as a game's limitations) or even when the dice occasionally go against me. One of the best laughs I had in a game was when I blundered a Black Powder order: my ACW gun crew picked up their piece and charged straight towards the confederate lines - waaagh!
For the latter: maybe. Maybe I shouldn't have stuck with Hoffman and his small crew (plus one or two extras). But maybe I want to be able to pick or stick to any models or units I like, within reason and to an agreed points limit, and have them able to perform as well, in their own way, as the agreed points limit of the other side. It's the mark of an unbalanced game if you can't, IMO. I've seen the same condescending 'fluff gamer' remark in 40K and WHFB gaming, as if it's a disability, and I'd like to shoot a condescending 'learn to play a real game rather than hiding behind your Listbuilder 40,000 autowin, dudebro' back at it.
But I digress. Again. Crewbuilding in Malifaux gets me too. When I finally got the idea that you pick your crew after determining the scenario, I started to think: well, that implies that you're better off not using the same crew for each scenario. The game almost requires you to buy a load of extra models to tailor your 5-8 model crew each time, and stay competitive. It started to feel like Pokemon - gotta catch 'em all! - or like 40K's pay-to-win aspect.
Then there's the cards... Early on I heard them touted as better than dice because they were... less random. Drawing from a 52-card deck is less random than a D6. I admit the context was in the ability to cheat fate with the cards in your hand, but all the same, you still have to draw that hand from a full deck. And its like rerolls weren't a thing, all of a sudden.
I've moaned about having to keep referring to the rule cards, but I felt the fate cards were a speedbump too. Eventually I began to feel that Malifaux was more of a card game, and the minis were just convenient counters to be referred to from time to time to determine range. Hmm and haa about the difference in numbers and what kind of flip that tells you to make - double positive, positive, straight, negative, double negative; flip; flip; scrutinise your hand for any trigger suits; cheat; cheat; hmm and haa some more about the difference in numbers and what kind of result that gives you; see if that sets off any triggers that need resolved, with a strong chance that you need to hmm and haa, flip, cheat, cheat all over again...
It's not elegant. Not to me.
I've heard that 2nd ed balanced things better, and maybe it did. I liked how the rules cards were pared right down, with extra rules held off to one sides as purchasable (and ignorable) options. In the couple of 2nd ed games I've managed to play so far, I almost scraped a draw, once! Almost. But I don't know if it's enough to draw me back. Once bitten, twice shy.
The game nights have moved from the henchman host's home to the nerd-club at the nearby uni, where he continues to, I have to say, do a pretty good job as a Wyrd henchman. There isn't much other tabletop wargaming going on there among the RPGs and MtG (not even 40K!) but there is some Infinity happening alongside. In a ridiculous turn of events, some of the guys heavily into Malifaux also took a shine to Infinity, so I've been avoiding it as a kind of 'Malifaux in space'. But then on a quiet night, I had a demo game and realised what a moron I was to do that. It seems more intuitive, at least. These days I'm thinking a wee haqqislam team might let me see the group semi-regularly, but perhaps without playing a game that I can't enjoy.
I gotcha... Thing that I quickly got from Malifaux v1, was that different crews maintained an internal balance, and so long as you got the "right" mission for the crew you had, you'd do alright (but alas, this has never happened to me and my showgirls crew :( )
As for the card mechanics, I guess it's one of those things that, like rerolls in 40k, you *can* pick it up and things smooth out some, but yeah, there is a TON to learn right off the bat
I've also been curious about Infinity (more than curious, I actually bought the rule book)... but as I bought the rule book, and on paper the rules are set up within the book in a less than intuitive manner (at least to me they were)
Ensis Ferrae wrote: I gotcha... Thing that I quickly got from Malifaux v1, was that different crews maintained an internal balance, and so long as you got the "right" mission for the crew you had, you'd do alright (but alas, this has never happened to me and my showgirls crew :( )
As for the card mechanics, I guess it's one of those things that, like rerolls in 40k, you *can* pick it up and things smooth out some, but yeah, there is a TON to learn right off the bat
I've also been curious about Infinity (more than curious, I actually bought the rule book)... but as I bought the rule book, and on paper the rules are set up within the book in a less than intuitive manner (at least to me they were)
The rulebook being set up in a less than intuitively way is a general consensus in the infinity community. Just get the fan revision of rules or use the wiki.
Am I a rarity? Just a week ago I got back into the 40k universe with a purchase of the re-released Dark Vengeance set.
I mainly make and paint rather than game so the duff rules do not mean much to me, but for a great price I get a lot of great plastic miniatures to paint up. Will it lead to larger SM/ Chaos SM armies? Probably not. But for what I see as a fair price I will more than reclaim my initial investment with the fun of painting them.
@Yonan you mentioned it a few pages back, but after you dropped out did your friends make any progress with the Deadzone/40k mashup? That I could play.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Am I a rarity? Just a week ago I got back into the 40k universe with a purchase of the re-released Dark Vengeance set.
I mainly make and paint rather than game so the duff rules do not mean much to me, but for a great price I get a lot of great plastic miniatures to paint up.
I've always said that GW makes (mostly) very good models, and the price per kit is (mostly) not more than I would pay for an individual kit, though this is rapidly changing. The problem for me is that the rules are not very good, IMO, and the cost for a "complete" army at the standard game size is far too much. The rules are poorly written, clunky, and not balanced. It comes closest to being balanced at around 1500 to 2000 points, where the average single army plus rules cost is between $550 and $700, and that's the bare minimum rules required to play (Rulebook+Codex).
In comparison, for that price I can get, say, The Warmachine rules and two to four 35 or 50 point armies (the points values most commonly played in WM/H), or god even knows how many Infinity squadrons or Malifaux crews. Even in larger scale games like Warzone Resurrection or Wargods of Aegyptus I can get two armies for the cost of one 40K army.
I would never seriously argue that a 40K army should be as cheap as an Infinity force. That would be silly and unreasonable. But the steep cost of a full army PLUS the steep startup costs PLUS the poor rules PLUS the rising quality of competitor's miniatures, which in some cases surpass GW's, makes 40K a very unattractive option for me, and looking at the lastest financial statement, I don't think I'm alone.
Other games may be more costly per model, but that's rapidly becoming untrue (Flash Gitz and Dire Avengers, I'm looking at you!), but the other issue is that I'll pay $50, 60, even more for a full unit of infantry, but generally with GW's stuff you need multiple copies of the same kit to be effective in the game, which is, again, more than I care to pay. Yeah, the, say, Gatorman Posse in Warmahordes is $45 for 5 models. But I'll never need more than one Gatorman Posse. Those Flash Gitz aren't going to be great with less than 10 of them. I'm gonna need three+ boxes of Tactical Marines for my Space Marine army.
I will say that GW still has most of the competition beat in terms of customization and extraneous bitz, but I'm not keen on the idea of paying a premium for bitz I'm never gonna use, ever.
Really, and again, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this,for me, the models are only a part of the equation. I like miniatures. I also like background, aesthetics, rules, value for money (admittedly a very nebulous concept), etc, with value-for-money and rules being the most important thing for me. With that said, I still place value on aesthetics and fluff (hence why I buy models instead of playing games with plastic army men or paper cutouts or what have you). It's just that GW doesn't have the proper balance of these elements for me. I will say that kit-for-kit Warmachine is also pretty damned expensive.
I've heard that 2nd ed balanced things better, and maybe it did. I liked how the rules cards were pared right down, with extra rules held off to one sides as purchasable (and ignorable) options. In the couple of 2nd ed games I've managed to play so far, I almost scraped a draw, once! Almost. But I don't know if it's enough to draw me back. Once bitten, twice shy.
I've got to agree, 1E Malifaux was getting to be a bit of a bloated mess near the end, and it felt like skill mattered less and less compared to finding some ludicrous unpredictable combo buried amongst the bajillion special rules that each new model had.
But FWIW, I found 2E to be a huge improvement in terms of cutting the rules bloat, balancing out power levels and fixing other stuff like the utility of objectives and schemes. Indeed, looking at the ongoing improvement in editions in this and games like Firestorm Armada only soured me more on GW, where nobody seems to expect that the rules will be improved between editions or rules or codexes of 40K. They just grit their teeth and hope that the random rules changes and arbitary points values and "Wouldn't it be cool if...." new stuff doesn't completely shaft the army they've spent so much on.
1E Malifaux did have a lot of issues, remember when The Dreamer and his crew first came out? They were nigh on unbeatable. 2E is certainly a lot more balanced.
@Ratbot: I pretty much agree with all of your points. Ultimately it is your own hobby (and to an extent that of your friends/gaming group), you should own it. Play whatever rules you want, with whatever models you want. The only type of gamer that cannot really do this is the hardcore tournament gamer where you are obviously a lot more restrained in terms of choice.
But, like many, I love the 40k world so will continue to involve myself in it but also a whole slew of other games and their worlds. The sad thing is that current management at GW seem prepared to ruin a lot of what made their IP so enjoyable. But the player base is certainly declining, and at quite a rate. The sheer volume of alternatives highlighted in this thread also offer a reason as to why so many are leaving GW. In the past few decades there was just not the variety of rules systems and miniatures that you get today.
Yeah, man, I'm with you. I love the 40K universe and I still like playing Dawn of War and Space Marine and the FFG roleplaying games, and reading Black Library novels. I just wish GW made a decent set of rules with a lower barrier to entry, that they understood their market, their product, and the diverse industry they're a part of.
I'm a bit embarassed, looking back and seeing just how much I ranted there. But I had been keeping up with the Joneses so long, it just kinda built up. And you did ask!
MRPYM wrote:The rulebook being set up in a less than intuitively way is a general consensus in the infinity community. Just get the fan revision of rules or use the wiki.
Got it! Same thing with Dystopian Wars: another game the group got into, though didn't play anywhere as regularly as Malifaux! I quite enjoy that, but trying to refer back to the rulebook (again, 1st ed I think) for some obscure bit of effect resolution is a nightmare.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote:I mainly make and paint rather than game so the duff rules do not mean much to me
I think that would help a lot.
RatBot wrote:I've always said that GW makes (mostly) very good models, and the price per kit is (mostly) not more than I would pay for an individual kit, though this is rapidly changing...
I would never seriously argue that a 40K army should be as cheap as an Infinity force. That would be silly and unreasonable. But the steep cost of a full army PLUS the steep startup costs PLUS the poor rules PLUS the rising quality of competitor's miniatures, which in some cases surpass GW's, makes 40K a very unattractive option for me, and looking at the lastest financial statement, I don't think I'm alone.
Other games may be more costly per model, but that's rapidly becoming untrue (Flash Gitz and Dire Avengers, I'm looking at you!), but the other issue is that I'll pay $50, 60, even more for a full unit of infantry, but generally with GW's stuff you need multiple copies of the same kit to be effective in the game, which is, again, more than I care to pay.
For some reason this made me think that - besides and beyond the problems of rules - GW should try to claw back a wee bit of the impulse-buy market, like the days of metal blisters where you dropped a bit of pocket money on 3-5 models and slowly built your unit that way. Obviously you can't do that these days, but what about a pricing structure on plastic kits that takes the sting out out of it for people with a wee bit more disposable income? (and I mean a wee bit more) Needless to say it's different for everyone - I'd balk at $50-60 (£30-35). I think £20 would be the cutoff point for me. Much over would make me much more likely to put the box back on the shelf to 'think about it', and then forget about it. I have the feeling, based on no facts or information whatsoever, that'd be the sweet spot for a lot more potential customers than they have at the mo.
It depends what you get in the box, too. I don't suppose 15-20 infantry figures would be too much to ask? 40 would be even more welcome, though. (I mean, they might be little jewel-like items of wonder, cast in shapes that makes the brains of gamers go mad with devotion for the 40K universe, but they're still cheap, mass-produced plastic fer the luvva Mike.)
But of course, this just boils down to a generic 'I wish they cost less' moan, and there's much doubt if that'll do them much good at this point anyway.
Elemental wrote:But FWIW, I found 2E to be a huge improvement in terms of cutting the rules bloat, balancing out power levels and fixing other stuff like the utility of objectives and schemes.
Maybe I'll hang onto Hoffman for another while.
RatBot wrote:Yeah, man, I'm with you. I love the 40K universe... reading Black Library novels. I just wish GW made a decent set of rules with a lower barrier to entry, that they understood their market, their product, and the diverse industry they're a part of.
I bought Lords of Mars the other day! I hope they get Gods of Mars and the rest of the Bequin trilogy out before that pesky death spiral catches up with them.
But, yeah, the fact I only bought Lords of Mars now has to do with that impulse buy thing. I didn't fancy paying a whole extra tenner for a cardboard sandwich, and I've been waiting for the paperback. I snapped that up this week, despite having splashed out on a £100+ airbrush compressor minutes before, and feeling a bit tender in the wallet.
I'm like you. Despite the Age of Ward, I still like much of the Warhammer universes, and the look of most Warhammer minis. That's why I still hang around a GW-oriented forum and moan about what GW is doing. I own, play and enjoy other games with other minis and other settings, but I'd add the GW core two back into that mix in a heartbeat if they came to their senses and started acting like other gaming businesses - like they wanted happy customers and players. (And if it's not too late for them) In my first post in this topic I mentioned that I bought and have a lot of interest in ViDe:FuCo and Mayhem. It's primarily because I can use these generic, customisable, thoughtful, interesting, inexpensive and playtested rules as substitutes for awful Warhammer rules, but still use Warhammer minis* and the Warhammer settings.
*I managed to scrape quite a few of the excellent Seb Perbett skaven off ebay and other places, for not too much. Most spent on one mini was £10 for the Games Day exclusive warlord. It helps that Mayhem, despite being a mass battle game (actually built for mass battles) doesn't require the sheer numbers of miniatures as WHFB to get a decent game in; that resellers sometimes carve up IoB rather cheaply; and, of course, regular clanrats are 20 for £20.
frozenwastes wrote: I think the truth of the matter is that it's about selective memory. If you believe that new = more powerful you will remember the more powerful releases and tend not to remember the meh ones. But because balance is just not there at all, each release has a higher chance of being either too powerful or too weak. And if you already are predisposed to remembering the too powerful ones, it's only natural to come to DarkElf27's conclusions.
I had a further thought about this.
Imagine that X% of a given new codex is out of balance. And let's say that half of that is too strong and half is too weak. I've already made the case that selective memories will cause someone who thinks new release = more powerful to see the examples that support their conclusions.
But what if there's a selection pressure that goes beyond just having a selective memory?
What if people don't play crappy units? What if you don't see the half of the out of balance stuff on the table that sucks because it's not any good. It just dies and loses and does nothing and doesn't give a good game experience.
So the end result is that even if there's an equal distribution of unbalanced-strong and unbalanced-weak, the selection pressure of unbalanced-weak feeling impotent on the table top means that after a few games, those things are going to stay on the shelf.
The end result is that codex imbalance ends up pushing an arms race even in situations where unbalance is distributed equally between overly strong and overly weak units.
It's also more important for casual players than for competitive ones to have balance in the game. It sounds backwards I know, but competitive players will figure out the meta. They'll figure out what subset of each codex is worth taking and which is not. Whereas two casual players might take things based on what looks cool, what concepts they like or story/fiction reasons. And what happens if someone ends up selecting too many weak units compared to the opponent's strong units?
Just by random happenstance this is going to ruin a lot of people's gaming experience.
This statement is SOOOO wrong and false. While yes they are turning over books faster, that is not a problem. I can't understand why people are saying a faster pace is bad. It's great. More to buy and you don't have to wait if you want a redo.
Yes, because I enjoy paying over $100 just to use models I've had for years, every year or so.... It is a problem, because they are trying to use a bucket to remove the water from the boat…
Gonna chime in with this as well. A well-done game system does not need to be updated every 22 months. Whether it's not playtested enough, or simply the result of progressive changes rather than a full overhaul is debatable, but It's been the better part of 2 decades since 40k underwent a major redo (3rd edition). From then on it's just been incremental, and when I realized it was going to be about $140-180 just to buy the rulebook and 2 Codices I needed to continue the game, I said no thanks.
Also "more to buy" has never been an incentive for me to stick with a game.
I left GW because of the decline in fluff and the increase in prices. I will always have a soft spot for their older fluff and the aesthetic and atmosphere of their games.
I've had a hard time moving on though, not because there isn't other games I am interested in but because after being burned by GW most of my gamer friends aren't interested in giving other companies a chance.
I love Warmachine/Hordes but it's prices aren't that far off from 40k and that makes my friend wary. I've also tried convincing them to try other games like Dropzone Commander, Malifaux, Infinity, Deadzone, etc. But they always have some kind of excuse. It's unfortunate, but I have become only a collector at this point.
If you switch to a project approach where you build both armies, paint them and host a game combined with a dinner, you'll get takers. Well, I always do.
frozenwastes wrote: If you switch to a project approach where you build both armies, paint them and host a game combined with a dinner, you'll get takers. Well, I always do.
I used that as a means to get players for an Airship Pirates game that I was running with my girlfriend - an in character steampunk dinner. (Recipes came from Fuel for the Boiler - a steampunk cookbook, and well worth reading.)
I am considering doing the same thing with Deadzone..... (Though the idea of opening up some post expiration MRE for the dinner amuses me... I think I will be a little less in character than that. )
I actually have been thinking about buying the Dropzone Commander, Infinity and Deadzone starter sets, painting them up and having them ready and just inviting people to come play.
It's how I do most of my historical projects. I have 15mm WW2 stuff that is individually based rather than based like Flames of War, I have 54mm Horse & Musket stuff, and when it comes to sci-fi I have a ton of 6mm (like Epic was) scale stuff. I'll pick miniatures, pick rules, bolster my terrain collection as needed and then start thinking about food and drinks to go with it.
A couple towns over there's a board game club that meets in a Royal Canadian Legion hall, and I've gone and set up a game there as well and just chatted and played other games, enjoyed some of the Legion's food and drink and run a game a couple times throughout the day for those interested.
I find this whole "I only want to play something that i can find opponents who will provide the other side" approach to be backwards. Why would I want my gaming of the things I enjoy to depend on other people buying and painting?
It's awesome when someone I got interested in a game buys into it themselves (I've been spreading Battletech around for using my 6mm scifi and like 8 locals ended up getting the newest starter set because of games I hosted and ran at gaming days), but I don't ever rely on it and certainly would never get into either a set of rules, a figure range or a historical era or genre because it's what other people want.
Zatsuku wrote: I actually have been thinking about buying the Dropzone Commander, Infinity and Deadzone starter sets, painting them up and having them ready and just inviting people to come play.
I just picked up the DZC one myself. I know there's a few people already interested in playing at my LGS...
To echo Frozenwastes (who I wish would post some project logs or something, because the stuff he's doing always sounds interesting ) - I've switched to the "project" path, and it's very liberating. You get to make what you want, with the narrative you're into, and paint it all yourself. This is satisfying on it's own. Getting people to play with is a bonus in my view, and if they are enthused enough to join in, that's awesome, but not required.
Providing both sides is one way to do it, and certainly a must for certain obscure gaming. Historical gamers have long realized that if you're going to run a game representing a more obscure era or campaign, you've pretty much got to prepare both sides.
However, I think the best thing to do is to grow a group of gamers who are into indie gaming. If you steer clear of the big-games, you can do alot of different kinds of gaming for the same $. It's a time consuming process to build such a group but the results are worth it.
Our club plays the following games and most of us have acquired our own forces so only occasionally does someone have to borrow an army.
-Song of Blades and Heroes
-Of Gods and Mortals
-Tomorrows War
-Alpha Strike and Mech Attack (using rebased mechwarrior clix)
-WarEngine
-Full Thrust
-Nuclear Renaissance- and other post apoc games
-In The Emperor's Name
-and others.
We're able to do this because
-These rules are free or quite affordable
-most of the games above don't require too many miniatures
-Some games can use the same miniatures as others
-Most importantly, the club members know if the collect the minis for these games at least a few times a year (more for most games) they'll get a chance to play them.
A few times we have quit games, but it's almost always because we find a better ruleset to use the same minis with. I think it's the knowledge that a reliable club exists that supports these games that lets members know they're not just buying another batch of minis that won't get played. And this is a club that only uses painted minis, so you know the members are confident if they're buying and painting figs for games that you'll almost never see in your FLGS.
If you want to see what I'm on about, check the links in my sig.
Da Boss wrote:To echo Frozenwastes (who I wish would post some project logs or something, because the stuff he's doing always sounds interesting )
I'm only just figuring out how to make the whole picture taking thing work for miniatures, so soon I'll be able to do that. I just got new lamps and am figuring out gimp/paint.net.
I'm also planning on getting more organized around an Indy gaming club like Eilif recommended. And I might be selling my business and going semi-retired. While its been cool to travel and game across the land, I think club building in one place might be better.
Eilif wrote: Providing both sides is one way to do it, and certainly a must for certain obscure gaming. Historical gamers have long realized that if you're going to run a game representing a more obscure era or campaign, you've pretty much got to prepare both sides.
Once you get out of the GW pricing mindset it's a lot more palatable too. I'd never dream of collecting a matched pair of WHFB armies, but I've got matched sets of armies for 15mm WW2/Ancients as well as a few skirmish games, most costing well under £100 all in (rules + 2 factions).
Eilif wrote: Providing both sides is one way to do it, and certainly a must for certain obscure gaming. Historical gamers have long realized that if you're going to run a game representing a more obscure era or campaign, you've pretty much got to prepare both sides.
Once you get out of the GW pricing mindset it's a lot more palatable too. I'd never dream of collecting a matched pair of WHFB armies, but I've got matched sets of armies for 15mm WW2/Ancients as well as a few skirmish games, most costing well under £100 all in (rules + 2 factions).
Very True.
Despite my emphasis on club building, I just looked at my list and realized that I have 2 (or more) sides for almost every one of the games I listed. Between bargain miniature lines and buying used and many of those forces were acquired for less than the price of one GW infantry unit!
I've found it very easy to justify new games by comparing them to a Leman Russ Battle Tank (£31), which is more than most rulebooks / starter sets cost these days
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Am I a rarity? Just a week ago I got back into the 40k universe with a purchase of the re-released Dark Vengeance set.
I mainly make and paint rather than game so the duff rules do not mean much to me, but for a great price I get a lot of great plastic miniatures to paint up.
I've always said that GW makes (mostly) very good models, and the price per kit is (mostly) not more than I would pay for an individual kit, though this is rapidly changing. The problem for me is that the rules are not very good, IMO, and the cost for a "complete" army at the standard game size is far too much. The rules are poorly written, clunky, and not balanced. It comes closest to being balanced at around 1500 to 2000 points, where the average single army plus rules cost is between $550 and $700, and that's the bare minimum rules required to play (Rulebook+Codex).
In comparison, for that price I can get, say, The Warmachine rules and two to four 35 or 50 point armies (the points values most commonly played in WM/H), or god even knows how many Infinity squadrons or Malifaux crews. Even in larger scale games like Warzone Resurrection or Wargods of Aegyptus I can get two armies for the cost of one 40K army.
I would never seriously argue that a 40K army should be as cheap as an Infinity force. That would be silly and unreasonable. But the steep cost of a full army PLUS the steep startup costs PLUS the poor rules PLUS the rising quality of competitor's miniatures, which in some cases surpass GW's, makes 40K a very unattractive option for me, and looking at the lastest financial statement, I don't think I'm alone.
Other games may be more costly per model, but that's rapidly becoming untrue (Flash Gitz and Dire Avengers, I'm looking at you!), but the other issue is that I'll pay $50, 60, even more for a full unit of infantry, but generally with GW's stuff you need multiple copies of the same kit to be effective in the game, which is, again, more than I care to pay. Yeah, the, say, Gatorman Posse in Warmahordes is $45 for 5 models. But I'll never need more than one Gatorman Posse. Those Flash Gitz aren't going to be great with less than 10 of them. I'm gonna need three+ boxes of Tactical Marines for my Space Marine army.
I will say that GW still has most of the competition beat in terms of customization and extraneous bitz, but I'm not keen on the idea of paying a premium for bitz I'm never gonna use, ever.
Really, and again, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this,for me, the models are only a part of the equation. I like miniatures. I also like background, aesthetics, rules, value for money (admittedly a very nebulous concept), etc, with value-for-money and rules being the most important thing for me. With that said, I still place value on aesthetics and fluff (hence why I buy models instead of playing games with plastic army men or paper cutouts or what have you). It's just that GW doesn't have the proper balance of these elements for me. I will say that kit-for-kit Warmachine is also pretty damned expensive.
This is spot on. My issue with 40k is twofold: The crappy rules and the high price when you factor in what you actually need for a normal sized force. $40 for 10 Marines isn't terrible in the grand scheme of things, but it's when you figure that you need 3 boxes, plus 3x Rhinos, plus a Captain, and a tank, and whatever else for a normal army. Yes, Privateer's boxed sets can get pricey, especially the metals, but it's balanced by the idea that you typically don't need more than one box except in rare cases. For instance, I recently priced out doing a themed force in Warmachine (eKreoss, so Exemplars galore). It came to about $320, which is on the high side for a 35-point army, but still that's about 50% less than a 1500 point 40k army for basically anything except maybe something like Draigowing or 3x Imperial Knights.
That's my problem in general. It's the combination of poor rules and needing a few hundred for a normal army. Compare that to something like Bolt Action, where a normal 1,000 point army is under $150; not for a minuscule demo game force, but for the regular size game. That's the size and price point 40k should be hitting.
MWHistorian wrote: Rumors are that Infinity's Operation Ice Storm is outselling 7th edition. I pre-ordered it and didn't buy 7th edition. Anyone else?
I'm waiting for the new Inf main rulebook and I have no intention of buying 7th edition. If I needed the starter box, I'd 100% purchase.
This^^
I just won't buy the starter box because I don't play any of those factions and the terrain is going to be released separately. But I'll 100% buy the 3rd edition rulebook when it comes out, even if the rules are free.
MWHistorian wrote: Rumors are that Infinity's Operation Ice Storm is outselling 7th edition. I pre-ordered it and didn't buy 7th edition. Anyone else?
I'm waiting for the new Inf main rulebook and I have no intention of buying 7th edition. If I needed the starter box, I'd 100% purchase.
This^^
I just won't buy the starter box because I don't play any of those factions and the terrain is going to be released separately. But I'll 100% buy the 3rd edition rulebook when it comes out, even if the rules are free.
It helped that I play Nomads and that I really want that limited edition corporate figure with the Ghost in the Shell briefcase gun.
To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Father-Knight is an entirely new unit.
His stat-line
Spoiler:
MOV4-4, CC23, BS14, WIP13, ARM5, BTS9, W2, S2 (this is silhouette, a new characteristic) Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Pistol (new), DACCW, Assault (new) Kinematika L1(new), Religious, 43 points 0 SWC.
He looks formidable. No idea which sectorial will get him, apart from MO.
When I have the money (4 kids eats up a lot of disposable income). I will be getting the infinity starter set. It looks like what I finally need to push me over the edge into getting it.
I haven't quite quit but my buying has definitely gone down to a bare minimum. Ebayed 7th rules, the last set of models were at half price from a friend. The reasons I don't leave for good are that I enjoy the background, I have three 3000+pt armies! and my group still enjoys and plays.
The reasons I've slowed down is price, codex creep, time, time time. Normal sized games seem to take way to long with a lot of it looking at the rules and codex.
I've been spending time and money on blood bowl, x-wing, marvels dice masters, and an assortment of board games.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Father-Knight is an entirely new unit.
His stat-line
Spoiler:
MOV4-4, CC23, BS14, WIP13, ARM5, BTS9, W2, S2 (this is silhouette, a new characteristic) Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Pistol (new), DACCW, Assault (new) Kinematika L1(new), Religious, 43 points 0 SWC.
He looks formidable. No idea which sectorial will get him, apart from MO.
What I mean by my words is that he is going to be legal or not later in tournament play and putting in lists in general after Ice storm. Sorry, I should have meant to type that out, as I thoughtmi saw his stats. :p
Still, it seems he his fomitable, but inexpensive for what you get with him.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Father-Knight is an entirely new unit.
His stat-line
Spoiler:
MOV4-4, CC23, BS14, WIP13, ARM5, BTS9, W2, S2 (this is silhouette, a new characteristic) Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Pistol (new), DACCW, Assault (new) Kinematika L1(new), Religious, 43 points 0 SWC.
He looks formidable. No idea which sectorial will get him, apart from MO.
What I mean by my words is that he is going to be legal or not later in tournament play and putting in lists in general after Ice storm. Sorry, I should have meant to type that out, as I thoughtmi saw his stats. :p
Still, it seems he his fomitable, but inexpensive for what you get with him.
Every unit is legal in ITS outside of Mercs, unless they're part of a factions list as standard.
The Father Knight is a new Knight unit for Pan Oceania, so yes, he'll be ITS legal, just like the Nomads new Reverend Healer (who sounds pretty boss as well. Linkable with both Moiras and Custodiers!).
Janthkin wrote:Back on topic, folks. The "I'm still playing/I'm not playing" conversation is interesting, but inappropriate here. There are other threads for that.
Fair do's. Hopefully this one's a better fit.
Toofast wrote:I guess I should've expected my intentions to be misrepresented and clarified a little more.
That's alright. People were taking my 'don't buy into 40K as a self-contained, special-snowflake sealed bubble' bit and turning it into 'buy this other self-contained, special-snowflake sealed bubble instead'.
Toofast wrote:I have 5k points worth and all the necessary books. I don't have time/energy/desire to spend more money on another system and learn all new rules/strategies, try to make all new friends or convince people who have no problem playing 40k to switch games, and play in the dark, cramped FLGS on felt tables with no scenery... people start new 40k armies with $200-300 initial purchases....
I see zero reasons to switch...
I see at least three.
1) To quit buying as opposed to switching: you have 5K points worth, all the necessary books, and it takes $200-300 dollars to start a new army. Less if you don't need the BRB, I guess. What more do you need? Fair enough, in your case you want to start eldar, try something different rather than keep up with the space wolf meta and all it's shenanigans, and you're going to try to get them on the cheap; but the latter might be more tricky than you think, for a few reasons. (Though I can sympathise, trying to snap up a few skaven bargains - though that's why I know it can be tricky!)
2) The time, energy and desire to spend more money on another system. Again, fair enough with the desire, but I'm wondering where you got the time and energy, not to mention the moolah, to pull together 5k points of space wolves for 40K? Other systems have much cheaper rulebooks, require much fewer models to start, and much fewer models overall. Even for some mass battle games, which might require fewer models per unit/element and have fewer elements overall (I look at rules rather than number of models to guess whether a game's mass or skirmish - 40K and WHFB are skirmishes. 'Warband' at best.) or allow smaller scales for even more saving.
Though I'm not personally asking you to give all that 5K points up. Like I hinted above, I'm not suggesting switching wholesale to Warmachine or Dropzone Commander, but to keep your space wolves and maybe think about trying an alternative ruleset with them. There are a few. A bit more generic and abstracted than 40K, but then I don't think much of the idea of equating fluff with rules. The rules are there for a hopefully fun, flowing game, not for determining what flavour breath your marine captain has this morning.
3) The time, energy and desire to learn all new rules/strategies. On one hand I see this as starting to clutch at straws to rationalise the sunk cost fallacy - how you gonna have the time, energy and desire to learn all new rules and strategies for eldar? On the other: I've said it before, others have said it many times before, but please take take it from us that other rules are not as complicated, convoluted, and just plain massive as 40K. Some seem like it, but other, great rulesets are simplified in comparison - taking less time to learn and much less to actually play, too. Also, deceptively simple in cases, in that fewer, more thoughtful rules can mesh together in interesting combinations on the tabletop.
That is, some other rules have a much better balance between strategy and tactics; let alone balance of individual armies and unit types. 40K is way overloaded on the strategy side. Some canny individuals can apply deep tactical thinking and others take advantage of one or two little tactical tricks, but overall the game is ruled by listbuilding and autorunning units to the point that I'm not sure if the average 40K player knows what a tactic is. (And people think admech robots have unusual rules. Though I could be wrong. Feel free to admonish) Other games still depend on strategy - pointed army lists still need a bit of balance, tanks need antitank strategies etc.. - but there's more emphasis on how you use the army list, too. Not a simple thing in itself, maybe, but the point is do you think that'd save you a few minutes of hunching over a calculator, mathshammering out the best choices vs. MEQs?
40K might seem like the norm because it's so widespread, so readily available and played in GW shops and most FLGSs, and the first wargaming experience for a lot of people, sometimes for quite a long time. I know; I was there. But when you take that and WHFB as just two games in the wide spectrum out there (it goes way beyond the other 'box set' games) they look ever more bizarre and aberrant. I hesitate to bring up Epic: Armageddon for the umpteenth time, but IMO it's a good example of a tactical, 'easy to learn hard to master' game, wrapped in a familiar setting, with free downloads out there for easy comparison.
GW stores vs. FLGSs... I don't include that as a point because it's much more specific and personal. However, welcome to the world of us non-GW gamers. It often involves some amount of cajoling, organisation, preparation and effort. Can't rely on the blueshirts out there. Sometimes you have to act as your own blueshirt, or outrider, or pressganger.
If (if) GW keeps circling the bowl financially, you might be thrust into that world before too long. Maybe even sooner if your local GW manager, or his superiors, wonder why you keep turning up to play your eldar without having bought any eldar there. Oh yes. I was there too. Not so much in the specific situation of turning up with ebay armies, but as one of a bunch of vets cleared out to make way for newer paying customers. I'm not threatening or gloating; just saying that you might be in a cosy place now, but don't take it for granted.
Recently I've moved on to Bloodbowl, and found it to be hilarious.
I and one of my friends have taken to alternating between 40k games and Bloodbowl. Atm, I'm waiting for my team to arrive from Black Scorpion, and once they are here we'll be starting a tournament as per the ruleset.
We've also been looking into more obscure, large-scale conflict games, and found this place, which looks like a good supplier of such things.
MWHistorian wrote: Rumors are that Infinity's Operation Ice Storm is outselling 7th edition. I pre-ordered it and didn't buy 7th edition. Anyone else?
That was a quote from the owner of Wayland Games, which I believe is the biggest independent seller in Europe.
He said that Icestorm has outsold 40k 7th edition by some margin, which also equated to about half of 40k 6th edition during the same period. Also interesting in terms of how much less 7th edition is selling compared to 6th edition, at least from an independent seller.
The boxset looks like an absolutely perfect place to start the game from new, I'm going to use it for Intro games, but it possibly holds less appeal for established players who don't have interest in Pan O or Nomads (and who will most likely just wait for the 3rd edition rulebook).
Semi related, according to one of Australias biggest online stores, The Combat Company, 2nd edition Dystopian Wars (I think? The latest edition) has been outselling 40k 7th edition 7:1.
Seems Australians weren't thrilled being asked to buy a new edition so early.
How soon does a new edition have to arrive before nobody is thrilled to buy it?
Perhaps GW should issue a smartphone app that automatically buys 8th edition for you while you are on the way home from buying 7th edition, and buys 9th edition while you are going to pick up your 8th edition books. By the time you get to the shop, 10th edition is also ready for collection.
-Loki- wrote: Semi related, according to one of Australias biggest online stores, The Combat Company, 2nd edition Dystopian Wars (I think? The latest edition) has been outselling 40k 7th edition 7:1.
Seems Australians weren't thrilled being asked to buy a new edition so early.
I buy a bit from The Combat Company, while I don't think they'd lie, they do seem to hate GW. Maybe they just got fed up with the trade agreements or something else, but The Combat Company doesn't actively advertise GW games anymore. They carry them, but 40k and WHFB used to have their own sections, now they are buried alongside all the other sci-fi and fantasy games respectively. They also haven't featured anything GW related in any of their newsletters for ages and when they do have new GW products they do put them in the "Recent Updates" they do their best not to really highlight them in the more prominent "New Products" section (this is probably partly thanks to GW not letting independents use GW images for advertising, so they have to wait until they actually get them and can photograph them).
So if you don't know that new GW products are coming out and you buy from The Combat Company, you'll quite possibly never even realise that they are carrying it.
Compare this to basically all the other games they carry which get prominently displayed in banner ads, have promotions and when new stuff comes out you see it in the "New Products" area.
Currently I see big ads for new Infinity stuff, AK Interactive hobby products, the X-wing wave 4 restock, Bolt Action boot camp along with new products for Dropzone Commander, X-wing and 4Ground scenery. It would be easy to miss the fact we are in the middle of a Space Wolves release for 40k.
GW did stiff CC pretty bad with stock for new releases... Tau was especially bad iirc? Getting less than 1/10th of what they had pre orders for. I can well understand their desire to give one back to GW wherever possible. Defiant Gaming the other major online retailer in Aus doesn't even carry GW stuff anymore iirc, other than paints I think.
Seeing the stats in the report, ~55% of aussie GW sales were direct compared to 20-30% in the US which shows that 1. independents are sick of GW and 2. A lot of Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly.
--- I'll add Star Wars Armada for where I plan to sink a fair bit of cash now that I've largely left 40k. Mantics Dungeon bash could see a fair entry purchase out of me too. Wolfmurder the Murdering Wolf Lord of Wolferhampton on his chariot of blizzardfrost wolfaxes is making it very easy to let the 40k universe slip way down the priority list for me.
Kilkrazy wrote: How soon does a new edition have to arrive before nobody is thrilled to buy it?
Perhaps GW should issue a smartphone app that automatically buys 8th edition for you while you are on the way home from buying 7th edition, and buys 9th edition while you are going to pick up your 8th edition books. By the time you get to the shop, 10th edition is also ready for collection.
The speed of the release didn't bother me so much as 1. the timing to desperately prop up the financials and 2. partially because of the timing it was 6.1 edition, not 7th and even somehow managed to be worse for the game overall. If it had of been used as a "windows 7" which fixed virtually everything wrong with Windows Vista I would have been ecstatic for a new release so soon after 6th - especially with a "50% discount on BRB with proof of ownership of 6th BRB" as a "we're sorry we're so hopelessly incompetent" which MS also did iirc. I guess it's more of a Windows 8 with unbound being the "metro" which cripppled an otherwise good.... no can't even use that analogy as win 7 was good, 40k 6th was not ; p
So if you don't know that new GW products are coming out and you buy from The Combat Company, you'll quite possibly never even realise that they are carrying it.
I wonder how much of this is GW not letting independents use their stock imagery and box art in a lot of cases? It must make life much more difficult for the site, who are otherwise forced to use a massive block of text in Times New Roman saying '40k! Woo!'
When Wayland Games had pre-orders on for the 40k Imperial Knight, they actually used pictures of the Dreamforge Games Leviathan miniature instead.
So, it could be both that, and the fact that GW are known for a doing a dance that consists of thrusting their groin in the face of independent retailers repeatedly, while whipping them.
Yonan wrote: GW did stiff CC pretty bad with stock for new releases... Tau was especially bad iirc? Getting less than 1/10th of what they had pre orders for. I can well understand their desire to give one back to GW wherever possible. Defiant Gaming the other major online retailer in Aus doesn't even carry GW stuff anymore iirc, other than paints I think.
Yeah, I haven't heard a good thing about how GW treats independents in Australia for about 20 years. The guy who used to own the FLGS I bought stuff from when I started all those years ago said he used to have a good relationship with GW until a GW store opened 10 minutes down the road and suddenly it got harder for him to get stock.
All the time I ordered GW stuff from him in the past few years before he closed, GW screwed him around which resulted in long delays before I got my models. The tin foil hatter in me thinks GW expects us customers to go to GW stores instead of having to wait weeks or on occasion months to get the same things from our FLGS... instead I just massively reduced my purchasing of new GW junk and spent more money on other games and traded GW stuff of which the FLGS sees large profits and GW sees zero.
Yonan wrote: Seeing the stats in the report, ~55% of aussie GW sales were direct compared to 20-30% in the US which shows that 1. independents are sick of GW and 2. A lot of Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly.
Actually from what I read Aussies are 67% direct vs 44% for the US.
It doesn't really mean "Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly". It could simply mean that the only people still playing are the few that play in GW stores and buy from that store (which is my experience, GW games aren't played much in most FLGS's these days in my area, only the GW store has people regularly playing GW games and even then it's a shadow of what it used to be). I'd also argue that GW stores have a greater presence per head of population than the US.
The state of GW products in Australia is pretty grim from what I can see. Not being able to find games outside of the GW store is part of the reason my GW purchasing has come to a halt. It's hard to justify buying new models when there's no where to play except the local GW and I don't like rocking up with models that I've obviously bought elsewhere, lol (the store manager is actually a nice guy).
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I buy a bit from The Combat Company, while I don't think they'd lie, they do seem to hate GW. Maybe they just got fed up with the trade agreements or something else, but The Combat Company doesn't actively advertise GW games anymore. They carry them, but 40k and WHFB used to have their own sections, now they are buried alongside all the other sci-fi and fantasy games respectively. They also haven't featured anything GW related in any of their newsletters for ages and when they do have new GW products they do put them in the "Recent Updates" they do their best not to really highlight them in the more prominent "New Products" section (this is probably partly thanks to GW not letting independents use GW images for advertising, so they have to wait until they actually get them and can photograph them).
This is why GW needs to stop shafting independents so much. IIRC, The Combat Company stated that since they can't rely on getting sufficient launch stock to supply the pre-orders, they'd stop advertising new GW releases because it sucked for the customers that they got excited about a new release and had to wait months for pre-orders. So this one is entirely GW's making and I really don't blame independents from trying to push other companies to reduce their reliance on GW. It's a complete joke the way they are treated, and I'm just surprised they haven't been dropped from more places.
Kilkrazy wrote: How soon does a new edition have to arrive before nobody is thrilled to buy it?
Perhaps GW should issue a smartphone app that automatically buys 8th edition for you while you are on the way home from buying 7th edition, and buys 9th edition while you are going to pick up your 8th edition books. By the time you get to the shop, 10th edition is also ready for collection.
Meanwhile, the rules dev team had ben cut dow to one man - Matteus Wardicus, your spiritual liege! GOOD NEWS everyone!
Yonan wrote: Seeing the stats in the report, ~55% of aussie GW sales were direct compared to 20-30% in the US which shows that 1. independents are sick of GW and 2. A lot of Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly.
Actually from what I read Aussies are 67% direct vs 44% for the US.
Ahh I see, you included the mail order which yeah is direct, I didn't.
The state of GW products in Australia is pretty grim from what I can see. Not being able to find games outside of the GW store is part of the reason my GW purchasing has come to a halt. It's hard to justify buying new models when there's no where to play except the local GW and I don't like rocking up with models that I've obviously bought elsewhere, lol (the store manager is actually a nice guy).
Yeah this mirrors what I've seen. I haven't set foot in a GW so can't assess that but so much less 40k being played. Lots of Warmahordes, Dreadball, X-Wing etc.
The state of GW products in Australia is pretty grim from what I can see. Not being able to find games outside of the GW store is part of the reason my GW purchasing has come to a halt. It's hard to justify buying new models when there's no where to play except the local GW and I don't like rocking up with models that I've obviously bought elsewhere, lol (the store manager is actually a nice guy).
Yeah this mirrors what I've seen. I haven't set foot in a GW so can't assess that but so much less 40k being played. Lots of Warmahordes, Dreadball, X-Wing etc.
The GW store near me always seems to have at least a couple of people in it but with only one and a half tables not many games get played. The nearest FLGS used to have a string 40k presence but that has dried up since 7th (although apparently that's just a coincidence and it was because the club leader didn't like having to take what space Magic left him). Now it's all X wing there.
Further out than that the next FLGS would laugh at you for trying to get a game of 40k because they all play Warmachine, Dyst Wars, X wing and Flames of War. Even the Battle Bunker in the city was practically deserted last time I was there. The drop off of interest in 40k over the last 3 years or so is really quite amazing.
Hobby centres 42% - 46% - 59% - 31% - 57%
Trade 36% - 41% - 28% - 56% - 33%
Mail order 13% - 13% - 13% - 13% - 10%
Forge World and Black Library 9% - - -
Thanks.
The UK difference is only slightly weighted towards mail order and trade (60% / 50% split), so unless there are disproportionate numbers buying the rulebook (and only the rulebook) directly via hobby centres or mail order (and keeping in mind margins should in theory be greater from those), we are in the ball park where 40k customers who have continued with 7th edition no longer massively outnumber a couple of more much more fringe games now.
We've also been looking into more obscure, large-scale conflict games, and found this place, which looks like a good supplier of such things.
Take a look at Steel Crown, Onslaught Miniatures and Troublemaker Games too. The four are the 'inheritors' of epic, coming about during and after the slow death of specialist games, and counting a few epic fans among them.
We've also been looking into more obscure, large-scale conflict games, and found this place, which looks like a good supplier of such things.
Take a look at Steel Crown, Onslaught Miniatures and Troublemaker Games too. The four are the 'inheritors' of epic, coming about during and after the slow death of specialist games, and counting a few epic fans among them.
I left GW because I simply could not justify the price anymore. I hardly get to play any games as it is, so a huge portion of my time is with the actual hobby side of it. That led to the value vs price to not really be worth it at that juncture. I have since moved on to historical miniatures and I am very impressed by all that is out there, and at such wonderful prices.
That all being said, I'd get back into both Warhammers if GW did a sudden 360 and grew some sense.
) which is a pity 'cos our main game host quickly became a Wyrd henchman, devoted to the cause.
, shortly after the new book came out that got rid of the special spawnings 
) simply because over the years I have seen a slight quality drop and a major price increase. Plus the short turnaround from 6th to 7th, they started to release sloppy rules adding super heavies and D weapons into normal games, and over all silly things. This is where some of the excuses come in, I am going to buy some 
Run little pony! Run!
