Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

not sure on the full details yet. that said what we do know the answer is "it depends"

the new codex is going to be Grey Knights ONLY, so in that regard, they lose out on the cheap inqusition options.

they seem to be tweeking their points down as well from what we can see, but over all... we really can't tell yet. my guess is, like every other codex since 6th it's going to be a sidegrade of the old one.

Since the codex isn't out until next week, you may want to check the rumors thread in the N&R forum.

Link please

I feel that, unless the Codex super powers up all GK units, it will be considered a nerf/fail. GK players are losing half of the codex they are used to. Sure, we all saw it coming, but it still stings.

Losing half a codex, and given how the first two 7th edition codexes weren't about power, but were more lateral moves for both armies, I can't imagine GK becoming much better, just more consistent with 7th edition and the new codex format. That being said, they weren't bad, and the new psychic phase only helped them.

I always thought they just suffer from "low model syndrome", which makes maelstrom mission harder when you don't have extra fast models zooming around.

Take your GK codex, slap the 7th edition errata on it, maybe make some of the stuff cheaper, add a table of warlord traits, then RIP 20 pages out that contained all the Inquisition units, special characters, henchmen etc. and RIP out all the assassin units as well, stuff what's left in a hardcover binding and sell it for 30 quid.

That's going to be our new codex in 2 weeks.

Oh and for any new 40k players looking to start with GK - have fun. You'll feel the need to ally yourself with another faction more than any other main army right now. So yeah, have fun paying another 30 quid to get that ally codex

Also, goodbye Inquisitor Valeria. Because no model, no more presence in the new dexes.

The new codex. Twice the price and half the content. It's like Christmas in August.

It sucks, because some of the books out there about GK are awesome books. IMO they just weren't a good choice for a specialist SM chapter that gets its own book.

This codex, I think, more than any other recent one is going to offer nothing at all to established players and make picking the army up more difficult in the future. That being said, GW could shock us all and somehow avoid that.

"No mater how well balanced the codex is or how powerful it is, the internet will rage on it." - Macharius

I saw this comment on BOLS. So much truth.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Take your GK codex, slap the 7th edition errata on it, maybe make some of the stuff cheaper, add a table of warlord traits, then RIP 20 pages out that contained all the Inquisition units, special characters, henchmen etc. and RIP out all the assassin units as well, stuff what's left in a hardcover binding and sell it for 30 quid.

That's going to be our new codex in 2 weeks.
.

You say this in jest, but within a week the points costs will be out (most have already been leaked in the collection builder cock up), we know the Inq stuff is the same, imagine the assassins well be the same or similar. It won't be hard to just attack the old codex with a Biro, note down the new costs, and your got a $0 codex update with state for all three books. Sure, you take it to a tourney, but I imagine most clubs populated by reasonable people would have no issue with it. It's what I'll be doing, at least!

its kind of typical, i decided 3 weeks ago to start up an allied army for my sons Dark Angels, having read pandorax, i thought yeah why not go Grey Knights, i decided to start off with an inquisitorial element first.

Oh well looks like i will have to start again.

Any news on an Inquisition 'Dex? - sorry for change of subject

There's been an Inquisition dex out for almost a year now...

IMO I'm happy with it.
Inquisition and Assassins removed. Sad at loss of options, but they generally crowded out the GKs in their own book. Ordo Xenos and Hereticus never should have been in the first place. I'm hopin the leaked prices and rules are accurate:
Draigo- same price, LOW now

Mordrak- gone. Cool fluff, but rules-wise just a Grand Master with a special deepstrike and conjure: 1 GK terminator ability.

Stern- dropped in points

Crowe- bit more expensive.

Brother Captain/Grand master- Generally the same. Grand Master went up a tad, weapon options went down in price.

Librarian- far, far cheaper. 2/3 the old cost. Free CCW swaps. Can take combi-weapons

Techmarine- about the same price, CCW swaps are cheaper. Appears to have lost the grenade caddy option.

Purifiers- About the same. CCWs and Special weapons appear to have been standardized across units, so a bit more expensive for most loadouts.

Paladin- Base size of 3 now, not 1. Apothecary far far cheaper so now 3 paladins with 1 apothecary is the price of 2 with an apoth before. Weapon prices standardized.

Strike Squad- same base price, Sandardized prices mean cheaper CCW options and incinerators, Psylencers and Psycannons up a bit for them.

Terminator Squad- Appears about 20% cheaper base, standardized weapon costs. Still cheaper than before with nearly any loadout.

Thawn- gone.

Dreadnought. Bit more expensive base, far cheaper venerable. Elite now. Autocannons cheaper. Psybolts likely gone.

Interceptors- same base price, cheaper to add more. Standardized weapon prices help them quite a bit- incinerators and CCW especially.

Storm Raven- same price as Marine one. Same for the Rhino, Land Raider, and Razorback.

Purgators- tiny bit more expensive base, standardized weapon costs mean cheaper psycannons and CCW options for them

Dreadknight- same base price, far far cheaper teleporter, heavy weapon all 5-10 points cheaper, appears able to double up on the same weapon now.

I'm personally rather happy with the changes, but then I ran a pure GK force, not an Inquisition one with a few GK toys. If the leaked Dreadknight is true, that will be my next purchase after the codex.

 Random Dude wrote:
"No mater how well balanced the codex is or how powerful it is, the internet will rage on it." - Macharius

I saw this comment on BOLS. So much truth.

You enjoy paying more for half the content?
Don't confuse valid criticism with rage or whining.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
"No mater how well balanced the codex is or how powerful it is, the internet will rage on it." - Macharius

I saw this comment on BOLS. So much truth.

You enjoy paying more for half the content?
Don't confuse valid criticism with rage or whining.

I'm not saying there isn't valid criticism. I am saying that there is sure to be a fair amount of whining to go along with it.

*edit- "Fair" is used in the pejorative sense.

 Random Dude wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
"No mater how well balanced the codex is or how powerful it is, the internet will rage on it." - Macharius

I saw this comment on BOLS. So much truth.

You enjoy paying more for half the content?
Don't confuse valid criticism with rage or whining.

I'm not saying there isn't valid criticism. I am saying that there is sure to be a fair amount of whining to go along with it.

*edit- "Fair" is used in the pejorative sense.

In this case, I'd say that the whining is well earned.

wait arent there out some inqusition codexed ( from about 3E) ?
so i think is logical that inqusutor are out of the codex, after all : deamon weapon on a grey knight army? really?
now is more near the fluf, only bad maybe that it has no much models, but Tau were like that in last 2 editions and were pretty ok , i think it will be same whith GK but i dont play them to be 100% sure

So basically this makes IG players who lost most of their special characters and their artillery tanks look like they came off almost unscathed compared to what GK players are about to go through.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So basically this makes IG players who lost most of their special characters and their artillery tanks look like they came off almost unscathed compared to what GK players are about to go through.

and Iqusitor player do evil laught

Those who ran pure GK forces proably aren't going to be too negitivly impacted by the new codex, (I hope we get to keep psybolts though) the big lsoers here are gonna be the folks who ran Cortez with 4+ bands of henchmen.

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
IMO I'm happy with it.
Inquisition and Assassins removed. Sad at loss of options, but they generally crowded out the GKs in their own book. Ordo Xenos and Hereticus never should have been in the first place.

You know what? I understand a lot of people invested into Grey Knights in 5ith, but I am fething pissed at this idea that GK somehow deserved their own codex. In third edition, it was Daemonhunters. That was the codex I got into, and it's what made me fall in love with the inquisition. The 5th edition book should have been Codex: Inquisition. But no. GW knew it was easier to pimp out more space marines, and those of us who put love and effort into their IST and inquisitors got shafted, and we were continually relegated to obscurity with that abortion of a cash grab that was the supplement , and you people have the GALL to say that an organization with such a rich and diverse background is less important than more fething space marines.

removing almost 50% of an armylist and lowering the points cost of the remaining 50% to bring them in line with vanilla smurfs is what counts as a new codex these days...and people will rush and buy it because it has kool cover art

(i'm not joking...the current GK armylist section has 38 unit entries. The new one will remove 15 of them)

The cover looks ok, I'm not sure what people love about it so much over the other ones. If anything, they did a worse job with the forced perspective compared to some of the other codices.

About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

They are likely to take a hit in the psi department. 6th spi did not scale the way 7th does, thus they are likely to be brought in line with the new edition.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

Acolytes and jokero, death cult assassins and crusaders..

 Chaos Rising wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

Acolytes and jokero, death cult assassins and crusaders..

Well, I basically meant the Gk units like Mordrak and his Ghosts, Thawn.

Henchmen are a different story.
Inquistion is now available to all SM chapters and AM, which goes along with the fluff.
Dito for Assassins.

The only downside is the price hike if you want to use GK, Inquistion, and an Assassin in the same army.

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Hmm gee, let see:

Psyfleman Dreads? Pretty much everyone took them.

Cheap Inquisitor with a Chimera full of henchmen? Again, present in a lot of GK lists.

Mordrak and his Ghost Knights? Rare, but present in several 2k point lists.

Valeria? Anybody who was a fan of the Ordo Xenos would have gone with her for fluff reasons.

Karamazov? Okay, this guy was rare I'll admit.

Assassins? Well I know for a fact that the Vindicare was a regular occurence in many armylists.

For those of us "die hard" traditionalists who eschew e-books and like to have tangible paper in their hands, Codex Inquisition is indeed out of the question right now.

We can make a few BASIC assumptions about any space marine codex.

We'll see the price reductions that the other space marine armies have, and the inclusion of AA options.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they got access to Centurions and the Hunter/Stalker, but as far as I've seen there is no proof of this. (which adding these options would make up for lack of new kits, and removal of inquisition/assassins)

Ralis wrote:
We can make a few BASIC assumptions about any space marine codex.

We'll see the price reductions that the other space marine armies have, and the inclusion of AA options.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they got access to Centurions and the Hunter/Stalker, but as far as I've seen there is no proof of this. (which adding these options would make up for lack of new kits, and removal of inquisition/assassins)

Centurions and the AA tanks are pretty much definitely C:SM specific units at this point.

Yeah, if the Space Wolves didn't get it, then I doubt the GKs will.

Btw do Wolves now have access to Stormravens and Stormtalons?

Nope.

 Sir Arun wrote:
removing almost 50% of an armylist and lowering the points cost of the remaining 50% to bring them in line with vanilla smurfs is what counts as a new codex these days...and people will rush and buy it because it has kool cover art

(i'm not joking...the current GK armylist section has 38 unit entries. The new one will remove 15 of them)

The lower point costs do make them more attractive to field.

I'm happy with Assasins being moved to their own dataslate. They used to have thier own codex. I'm comfortable with them being thier own organization, instead of rolled into another codex.

Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1

Is Psybolt ammo gone from the codex?

 N.I.B. wrote:
Is Psybolt ammo gone from the codex?

We don't know yet.

Do the extra objectives in the cards in tge book as well? I am trying to decide if i should get the cards.

Stechovia wrote:
Do the extra objectives in the cards in tge book as well? I am trying to decide if i should get the cards.

I think you a word there.

I'm assuming you were asking whether or not the cards come in the book, and the answer is no, or at least, not with the past two codices (Wolves/Orks). The book has a page detailing what each objective is and which section of the objectives deck it replaces, but that's about it.

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

I played those units often as part of my GK army. I'll judge the book when it comes out based on how fun it is to play, but regardless of how the book plays it is not fun to pay close to $100 to continue to play your army.

Apologies for any offense.
My point is that the "I just popped into this thread to insult anyone airing grievances" posts are getting incredibly grating.
Grey Knights are actually my least favorite army, so I'm certainly not playing favorites; when a good chunk of your codex simply evaporates and you're expected to pay $60 for the privilege I don't think you have your head on crooked if you're unsatisfied.

The only unit being removed that I will miss is Mordrak and his Ghostly Bodyguards. Mordrak and company have been a staple of my army since the 5th Ed codex released, and I'll be sad to see him and his Ghosts sitting on the self when he 7th Ed book arrives. Have my fingers crossed that there will be a Relic or ability that lets a GM + GKT squad DS without scatter turn 1, for old times sake.

Thawn I'm less concerned about. While he had an OP special rule, his price point was way too high to be useful for me in most games. Maybe a Relic will see his model on the table, too?

SJ

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
IMO I'm happy with it.
Inquisition and Assassins removed. Sad at loss of options, but they generally crowded out the GKs in their own book. Ordo Xenos and Hereticus never should have been in the first place.

You know what? I understand a lot of people invested into Grey Knights in 5ith, but I am fething pissed at this idea that GK somehow deserved their own codex. In third edition, it was Daemonhunters. That was the codex I got into, and it's what made me fall in love with the inquisition. The 5th edition book should have been Codex: Inquisition. But no. GW knew it was easier to pimp out more space marines, and those of us who put love and effort into their IST and inquisitors got shafted, and we were continually relegated to obscurity with that abortion of a cash grab that was the supplement , and you people have the GALL to say that an organization with such a rich and diverse background is less important than more fething space marines.

Everyone knows that to GW and their target age group, Space Marines of all colours and flavours make the galaxy go round. The more special snow flake the better. And to GW's target audience 12 year olds, a shady mysterious and complicated group like the Inquisition, heavily involved in politics and subtlety, is far less interesting that supersoldier power rangers saving the day and being Superman x100


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The only unit being removed that I will miss is Mordrak and his Ghostly Bodyguards. Mordrak and company have been a staple of my army since the 5th Ed codex released, and I'll be sad to see him and his Ghosts sitting on the self when he 7th Ed book arrives. Have my fingers crossed that there will be a Relic or ability that lets a GM + GKT squad DS without scatter turn 1, for old times sake.

Thawn I'm less concerned about. While he had an OP special rule, his price point was way too high to be useful for me in most games. Maybe a Relic will see his model on the table, too?

SJ

I'm sad to see Thawn go, only because the Termies I'm building now have the Justicar's weapon swappable between Sword, Halberd for Thawn mode and Warding Stave. With Warding stave likely to changed to +2Str AP4 and Thawn gone its some effort in the temporary pin and the priming of the extra weapons gone to waste.

No word on a drop pod?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
No word on a drop pod?

"Drop pods? Drop pods! We don't need no stink'n Drop Pods!"

SJ

Man, this might make my army a good play again... My entire army of deep striking Terminators could see a viable use... I'm super psyched. Any word as to whether we get like a 1st turn drop so that we can keep the whole army in reserve for a fluffy deep strike move?? I'm definitely psyched if this is the case.

I just noticed all the tears in this topic. GRAY KNIGHTS was just about as Fluff as fluff can be. They are the army that you allied with not stand alone. U allied them with your guard for shock troops. But one huge thing in previous editions then 7th is now all the Imperials being battle brothers no longer just allies of convenience. Which is kinda a big deal.

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

I loved using Mordrak, his Ghost Knights, and 2 attached Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armour with Psycannons behind enemy lines on Turn 1, with NO SCATTER. It allowed me to unleash 8 S7, Rending shots into the rear armor of the scariest enemy vehicle on the map. The survivors would use subsequent turns to wreck his lines as the rest of my army surged forward.

I would field Thawn in every army that included Terminators. He was an immortal objective secured unit that generated 2 Warp dice in addition to the one generated by the rest of his unit.

I used 3 of the Assassins to good effect in my armies.

Again, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (Termi & Psycannon) was my favorite Warlord, because he was deadly, reasonably survivable, and not going to kill himself with a psychic power like the Librarian is prone to doing. Best of all he was only 80 points.

I used the Brotherhood Champion a lot in 6th edition, because he had a great power for trolling a more powerful opponent, and he could be transported in any vehicle. 7th Edition broke him, and the new Codex is just removing him instead of fixing him. Now our only non-Terminator HQ is Crowe.

As for the Henchmen, I would occasionally throw in two Inquisitorial Chimeras with Jokaeros' Lascannons, Servitors' Heavy Bolters, and an OMI's Psycannon shooting out of the 5 Firepoints. I never spammed them, but having them gave a little more variety to my lists.

Lost units I used: Mordrak, Thawn, Brotherhood Champion (until 7th), Inquisitors, Culexus, Calidaus, Vindicare & 2 Chimeras of Henchmen.

oh wait, the brotherhood champion is also removed now? goddamn. I'm guessing they'll also fiddle around with the nemesis warding stave and make it crappier.

I just don't like the fact we lost so much and are not gaining anything to replace it. Mordak was fun to play with and it sucks he is gone.

Maybe they will put out Draigo on a sled pulled by bound daemons.

ForeverARookie wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

I loved using Mordrak, his Ghost Knights, and 2 attached Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armour with Psycannons behind enemy lines on Turn 1, with NO SCATTER. It allowed me to unleash 8 S7, Rending shots into the rear armor of the scariest enemy vehicle on the map. The survivors would use subsequent turns to wreck his lines as the rest of my army surged forward.

I would field Thawn in every army that included Terminators. He was an immortal objective secured unit that generated 2 Warp dice in addition to the one generated by the rest of his unit.

I used 3 of the Assassins to good effect in my armies.

Again, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (Termi & Psycannon) was my favorite Warlord, because he was deadly, reasonably survivable, and not going to kill himself with a psychic power like the Librarian is prone to doing. Best of all he was only 80 points.

I used the Brotherhood Champion a lot in 6th edition, because he had a great power for trolling a more powerful opponent, and he could be transported in any vehicle. 7th Edition broke him, and the new Codex is just removing him instead of fixing him. Now our only non-Terminator HQ is Crowe.

As for the Henchmen, I would occasionally throw in two Inquisitorial Chimeras with Jokaeros' Lascannons, Servitors' Heavy Bolters, and an OMI's Psycannon shooting out of the 5 Firepoints. I never spammed them, but having them gave a little more variety to my lists.

Lost units I used: Mordrak, Thawn, Brotherhood Champion (until 7th), Inquisitors, Culexus, Calidaus, Vindicare & 2 Chimeras of Henchmen.

Brotherhood Champion is still in? And I wouldn't be surprised if his old power became a special rule, or at the very least, he was allowed to strike in CC even if killed by a higher Int.

Loss of Psybolt ammo has been rumoured... but could just be wishlisting.

Based on recent Codex releases, their rules will probably just be streamlined and brought in line with other books. Like the Space Wolves codex.

To those who spent time making Modrak and his ghosts, you have my sympathy, as I've seen some awesome conversion models of them on here.

On the plus side, you now have a unique Paladin unit, which isn't a good solution, but at least lets you use the models.

 Paradigm wrote:
To those who spent time making Modrak and his ghosts, you have my sympathy, as I've seen some awesome conversion models of them on here.

On the plus side, you now have a unique Paladin unit, which isn't a good solution, but at least lets you use the models.

its always fun to streamline 40k and get rid of its flavor and uniqueness

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
To those who spent time making Modrak and his ghosts, you have my sympathy, as I've seen some awesome conversion models of them on here.

On the plus side, you now have a unique Paladin unit, which isn't a good solution, but at least lets you use the models.

its always fun to streamline 40k and get rid of its flavor and uniqueness

To clarify, I was not at all celebrating the loss of Modrak and the Ghost Knights. I simply wanted to point out that one can keep using the models in a different role rather than relegate awesome minis like the ones above to the shelf.

Basically, I wouldn't want GW's stupidity to stop people using the models they have put time and effort into!

me and my gaming group have a houserule where we allow others to use ICs from older books if they dont make it to the new codex, as long as they werent dropped for a good reason, like being completely outdated in terms of mechanics

For the most part, I am happy with the changes seeing as I ran a pure GK army in the first place with the occasional allies to round out my weaknesses. My biggest loss was that of Mordrak and his Ghost Knights but I never got around to painting them so I will miss the alpha strike with no scatter especially when you had a Librarian casting invisibility on them. This seems to be solved in the new codex since the rumor is that everyone will get to alpha strike with reduced scatter so that makes up for the loss of Mordrak. This makes the GK the teleporting deep striking army they were meant to be and actually brings it into the fold of the fluff.

As far as getting rid of the Inquistorial and Assassins, I think it is a good move. They always felt out of place except for the Ordo Malleus and I never used anything that wasn't the Ordo Malleus so the only thing I ever had was an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. I never even used henchman because I saw it watering down of the GK. You can still ally into the Inquisition to still have that type of army but I am glad they stream lined the codex.

 Sir Arun wrote:
me and my gaming group have a houserule where we allow others to use ICs from older books if they dont make it to the new codex, as long as they werent dropped for a good reason, like being completely outdated in terms of mechanics

A good rule and easy enough to do.

Actually I think the last GK codex should have simply been renamed to Codex: Inquisition.

They could have added some 30 extra pages - 15 fluff, 10 bestiarum (SoB only have 10 unique units, if I am not mistaken), 5 armylist and squeezed the entire Adepta Sororitas into it and the codex would have been perfect.

Sisters dont have THAT many units when you take away all the inquisitors and henchmen.

But instead, GW being clever as they are, decided to split everything into 4 different books and sell them for 4 times the price, with 3 of those books being e-format only.

 Deadshot wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

I loved using Mordrak, his Ghost Knights, and 2 attached Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armour with Psycannons behind enemy lines on Turn 1, with NO SCATTER. It allowed me to unleash 8 S7, Rending shots into the rear armor of the scariest enemy vehicle on the map. The survivors would use subsequent turns to wreck his lines as the rest of my army surged forward.

I would field Thawn in every army that included Terminators. He was an immortal objective secured unit that generated 2 Warp dice in addition to the one generated by the rest of his unit.

I used 3 of the Assassins to good effect in my armies.

Again, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (Termi & Psycannon) was my favorite Warlord, because he was deadly, reasonably survivable, and not going to kill himself with a psychic power like the Librarian is prone to doing. Best of all he was only 80 points.

I used the Brotherhood Champion a lot in 6th edition, because he had a great power for trolling a more powerful opponent, and he could be transported in any vehicle. 7th Edition broke him, and the new Codex is just removing him instead of fixing him. Now our only non-Terminator HQ is Crowe.

As for the Henchmen, I would occasionally throw in two Inquisitorial Chimeras with Jokaeros' Lascannons, Servitors' Heavy Bolters, and an OMI's Psycannon shooting out of the 5 Firepoints. I never spammed them, but having them gave a little more variety to my lists.

Lost units I used: Mordrak, Thawn, Brotherhood Champion (until 7th), Inquisitors, Culexus, Calidaus, Vindicare & 2 Chimeras of Henchmen.

Brotherhood Champion is still in? And I wouldn't be surprised if his old power became a special rule, or at the very least, he was allowed to strike in CC even if killed by a higher Int.

He doesn't have a model, he isn't on the GW Websight, and I haven't seen any mention of him in the leaks I've seen. 7th Edition's FAQ explicitely took his unique power away, so it is unlikely they'll give it back. Also, They've removed Mordrak and Thawn, just because they had no official models. There was nothing broken about them, they were just oddities that gave the Grey Knights some unique flavor, now look at them. We can't, because they're gone. GW.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Actually I think the last GK codex should have simply been renamed to Codex: Inquisition.

They could have added some 30 extra pages - 15 fluff, 10 bestiarum (SoB only have 10 unique units, if I am not mistaken), 5 armylist and squeezed the entire Adepta Sororitas into it and the codex would have been perfect.

Sisters dont have THAT many units when you take away all the inquisitors and henchmen.

But instead, GW being clever as they are, decided to split everything into 4 different books and sell them for 4 times the price, with 3 of those books being e-format only.

Honestly, I do agree with this but the other problem is that the different parts of the Inquisition function differently from each other to the point it makes sense but at the same time paradoxically it doesn't. With the new allies matrix I honestly don't think that the Assassins would need their own codex and could fit into the Inquisition codex but the GK and SoB having their own codex I am quite fine with because they can operate independently on their own. I do think they need to refresh the Sisters though, give them their own plastic models and give them a hardback codex like the rest of us and SoB players would go nuts. Being a pure GK player, I am quite fine with them having their own stand alone codex and I solve them being a small force by supplementing other armies into them like they do in the fluff. This is easily achieved with the allies matrix but it does make you spend more on codices.

 Adam-Wayland wrote:
Loss of Psybolt ammo has been rumoured... but could just be wishlisting.

Based on recent Codex releases, their rules will probably just be streamlined and brought in line with other books. Like the Space Wolves codex.

Brought in line could mean shifting in the direction of vanilla Space Marines without access to units like Stormtalons, TFC, and whatnot.

ForeverARookie wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

I loved using Mordrak, his Ghost Knights, and 2 attached Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armour with Psycannons behind enemy lines on Turn 1, with NO SCATTER. It allowed me to unleash 8 S7, Rending shots into the rear armor of the scariest enemy vehicle on the map. The survivors would use subsequent turns to wreck his lines as the rest of my army surged forward.

I would field Thawn in every army that included Terminators. He was an immortal objective secured unit that generated 2 Warp dice in addition to the one generated by the rest of his unit.

I used 3 of the Assassins to good effect in my armies.

Again, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (Termi & Psycannon) was my favorite Warlord, because he was deadly, reasonably survivable, and not going to kill himself with a psychic power like the Librarian is prone to doing. Best of all he was only 80 points.

I used the Brotherhood Champion a lot in 6th edition, because he had a great power for trolling a more powerful opponent, and he could be transported in any vehicle. 7th Edition broke him, and the new Codex is just removing him instead of fixing him. Now our only non-Terminator HQ is Crowe.

As for the Henchmen, I would occasionally throw in two Inquisitorial Chimeras with Jokaeros' Lascannons, Servitors' Heavy Bolters, and an OMI's Psycannon shooting out of the 5 Firepoints. I never spammed them, but having them gave a little more variety to my lists.

Lost units I used: Mordrak, Thawn, Brotherhood Champion (until 7th), Inquisitors, Culexus, Calidaus, Vindicare & 2 Chimeras of Henchmen.

Brotherhood Champion is still in? And I wouldn't be surprised if his old power became a special rule, or at the very least, he was allowed to strike in CC even if killed by a higher Int.

He doesn't have a model, he isn't on the GW Websight, and I haven't seen any mention of him in the leaks I've seen. 7th Edition's FAQ explicitely took his unique power away, so it is unlikely they'll give it back. Also, They've removed Mordrak and Thawn, just because they had no official models. There was nothing broken about them, they were just oddities that gave the Grey Knights some unique flavor, now look at them. We can't, because they're gone. GW.

Ummm...he did have a model... It was the old PA GK metal/resin model with his arms out to the side and a sword :/ Used to be the Justicar model with Daemonhunters?

And I do recall seeing him listed on the leaked pics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed the model is no longer on the website, though the GK Brother-Captain model is still there so it could just be out of stock or something or a damaged mold.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

I think this is especially held up by their special detachment that we have seen, I see it as a better Ally detachment.

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

I think this is especially held up by their special detachment that we have seen, I see it as a better Ally detachment.

I have run pure GK and I have run them with allies and I will have to say that I kind of do agree with this despite my pride wanting to say that the GK are good on their own. I think they can deal fine on their own but they aren't a top tier army and adding allies helps a great deal with them. I have had Eldar, SM and even an Imperial Knight allies for them just because I wanted to experience other armies without having to start a new one when I having to loose focus on my GK. You know what? The GK are good at what they do, don't get me wrong but getting speed and anti-armor in their ranks goes a long way for them. The Eldar add speed to them and I also added a wave serpent with fire dragons to handle armor, they work beautifully together even being only allies of convenience. The Imperial Fist detachment brings some much needed anti-armor and range to the table while my GK deep strike into enemy territory with a drop pod to go in with the rest of the GK or hold an objective. The Imperial Knight is an Errant and I don't need to say too much more than that. So yeah, GK benefit a lot from a little help and it doesn't have to be much. All my allied detachments are just 500 points or below but they add a lot to the table regardless because of how expensive the GK are points wise.

People actually like paying more to have their dexes split up into several? I don't understand. If the several dexes were cheap, maybe. But wow.

 Envihon wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

I think this is especially held up by their special detachment that we have seen, I see it as a better Ally detachment.

I have run pure GK and I have run them with allies and I will have to say that I kind of do agree with this despite my pride wanting to say that the GK are good on their own. I think they can deal fine on their own but they aren't a top tier army and adding allies helps a great deal with them. I have had Eldar, SM and even an Imperial Knight allies for them just because I wanted to experience other armies without having to start a new one when I having to loose focus on my GK. You know what? The GK are good at what they do, don't get me wrong but getting speed and anti-armor in their ranks goes a long way for them. The Eldar add speed to them and I also added a wave serpent with fire dragons to handle armor, they work beautifully together even being only allies of convenience. The Imperial Fist detachment brings some much needed anti-armor and range to the table while my GK deep strike into enemy territory with a drop pod to go in with the rest of the GK or hold an objective. The Imperial Knight is an Errant and I don't need to say too much more than that. So yeah, GK benefit a lot from a little help and it doesn't have to be much. All my allied detachments are just 500 points or below but they add a lot to the table regardless because of how expensive the GK are points wise.

I like this post, it sounds how GK are meant to be: amazing fighting Daemons, but not quite up to the task of fighting other armies. They aren't designed or intended to fight armies with tanks (Daemons have none) or extremely fast moving units (Daemons only have flying Greater Daemons and Princes which Stormravens and Dreadknights fight, and the rest fast stuff are Cavalry and Beasts which are tackled by the infantry like the rest).

 MWHistorian wrote:
People actually like paying more to have their dexes split up into several? I don't understand. If the several dexes were cheap, maybe. But wow.

It's the whole "it's that or you get left behind" mentality. So people will buy whatever poop GW produces if they want to stay in the game. In this case, the "poop" being shelling out 3x as much to bring your old GK codex to the current edition, i.e. $94.50 instead of $33 (or $49.50 for the standard hardback format).

 Deadshot wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

I think this is especially held up by their special detachment that we have seen, I see it as a better Ally detachment.

I have run pure GK and I have run them with allies and I will have to say that I kind of do agree with this despite my pride wanting to say that the GK are good on their own. I think they can deal fine on their own but they aren't a top tier army and adding allies helps a great deal with them. I have had Eldar, SM and even an Imperial Knight allies for them just because I wanted to experience other armies without having to start a new one when I having to loose focus on my GK. You know what? The GK are good at what they do, don't get me wrong but getting speed and anti-armor in their ranks goes a long way for them. The Eldar add speed to them and I also added a wave serpent with fire dragons to handle armor, they work beautifully together even being only allies of convenience. The Imperial Fist detachment brings some much needed anti-armor and range to the table while my GK deep strike into enemy territory with a drop pod to go in with the rest of the GK or hold an objective. The Imperial Knight is an Errant and I don't need to say too much more than that. So yeah, GK benefit a lot from a little help and it doesn't have to be much. All my allied detachments are just 500 points or below but they add a lot to the table regardless because of how expensive the GK are points wise.

I like this post, it sounds how GK are meant to be: amazing fighting Daemons, but not quite up to the task of fighting other armies. They aren't designed or intended to fight armies with tanks (Daemons have none) or extremely fast moving units (Daemons only have flying Greater Daemons and Princes which Stormravens and Dreadknights fight, and the rest fast stuff are Cavalry and Beasts which are tackled by the infantry like the rest).

Except we aren't so great at fighting daemons apart from shutting down the psychic phase. Everything except the Storm Raven has to Snap-fire at flying Daemons, and they get a Jink, which means it is pointless to reduce their Invulnerable save, because Jinking doesn't effect attacks like Psychic Shriek. Also, taking allies to help fight other factions cuts into the dice pool for denying Chaos summoning.

I don't think factions should be reduced to not being viable on their own.

Ruling out the inquisition sucked.

ForeverARookie wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

I think this is especially held up by their special detachment that we have seen, I see it as a better Ally detachment.

I have run pure GK and I have run them with allies and I will have to say that I kind of do agree with this despite my pride wanting to say that the GK are good on their own. I think they can deal fine on their own but they aren't a top tier army and adding allies helps a great deal with them. I have had Eldar, SM and even an Imperial Knight allies for them just because I wanted to experience other armies without having to start a new one when I having to loose focus on my GK. You know what? The GK are good at what they do, don't get me wrong but getting speed and anti-armor in their ranks goes a long way for them. The Eldar add speed to them and I also added a wave serpent with fire dragons to handle armor, they work beautifully together even being only allies of convenience. The Imperial Fist detachment brings some much needed anti-armor and range to the table while my GK deep strike into enemy territory with a drop pod to go in with the rest of the GK or hold an objective. The Imperial Knight is an Errant and I don't need to say too much more than that. So yeah, GK benefit a lot from a little help and it doesn't have to be much. All my allied detachments are just 500 points or below but they add a lot to the table regardless because of how expensive the GK are points wise.

I like this post, it sounds how GK are meant to be: amazing fighting Daemons, but not quite up to the task of fighting other armies. They aren't designed or intended to fight armies with tanks (Daemons have none) or extremely fast moving units (Daemons only have flying Greater Daemons and Princes which Stormravens and Dreadknights fight, and the rest fast stuff are Cavalry and Beasts which are tackled by the infantry like the rest).

Except we aren't so great at fighting daemons apart from shutting down the psychic phase. Everything except the Storm Raven has to Snap-fire at flying Daemons, and they get a Jink, which means it is pointless to reduce their Invulnerable save, because Jinking doesn't effect attacks like Psychic Shriek. Also, taking allies to help fight other factions cuts into the dice pool for denying Chaos summoning.

I don't think factions should be reduced to not being viable on their own.

Except you do realise that that's a matter of meta? In the fluff it would be extremely rare to 4+ Greater Daemons and/or Daemon Princes and a handful of Horrors. Most fluff incursions would involve 1 Greater Daemon and its underlings from the same deity. Or else a number of Greater Daemons leading a mixture of lesser daemons.

Its extremely fluffy to have the GD flying around, unable to be shot down. Also extremely fluffy to think of Stormravens chasing down those FMC and the GD and DP jinking out of the way, smashing them from the air and then dueling on the ground with Grand Masters and Dreadknights while the Knights and Daemons go head to head.

 Chaos Rising wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
About the "GK lose so many units! Gawd!" argument:

How many of "all" those units have GK players regularly fielded?

Exactly.

Worst reason ever to lose units.

How many? None at all.

Acolytes and jokero, death cult assassins and crusaders..

so no GK units then?

this is GK we are talking about, not codex inquisition, units being moved to the codex they are supposed to be in instead of being rolled into one they shouldnt be in isnt a big deal, ESP when GK can still take them, just now, so can everyone else.

at WORST, GK have slightly less access to those units then before, but now multiple codexes have better access (read any access at all) to them, needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few here.

"Just pay more and you can have your old units back!" - GW

 Deadshot wrote:



Ummm...he did have a model... It was the old PA GK metal/resin model with his arms out to the side and a sword :/ Used to be the Justicar model with Daemonhunters?

And I do recall seeing him listed on the leaked pics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed the model is no longer on the website, though the GK Brother-Captain model is still there so it could just be out of stock or something or a damaged mold.

do you have an image?

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:



Ummm...he did have a model... It was the old PA GK metal/resin model with his arms out to the side and a sword :/ Used to be the Justicar model with Daemonhunters?

And I do recall seeing him listed on the leaked pics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed the model is no longer on the website, though the GK Brother-Captain model is still there so it could just be out of stock or something or a damaged mold.

do you have an image?

 Deadshot wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Is the new codex a nerf or a buff? If it is a buff it might solidify my idea to start them after a year of hesitating.

Well, after reading the new WD, I think the new GK are meant to be played as an ally force or a main detachment with allies like vanilla SM or AM.
The low model count is a serious downside at the competitive level especially against very shooty or horde armies.

I think this is especially held up by their special detachment that we have seen, I see it as a better Ally detachment.

I have run pure GK and I have run them with allies and I will have to say that I kind of do agree with this despite my pride wanting to say that the GK are good on their own. I think they can deal fine on their own but they aren't a top tier army and adding allies helps a great deal with them. I have had Eldar, SM and even an Imperial Knight allies for them just because I wanted to experience other armies without having to start a new one when I having to loose focus on my GK. You know what? The GK are good at what they do, don't get me wrong but getting speed and anti-armor in their ranks goes a long way for them. The Eldar add speed to them and I also added a wave serpent with fire dragons to handle armor, they work beautifully together even being only allies of convenience. The Imperial Fist detachment brings some much needed anti-armor and range to the table while my GK deep strike into enemy territory with a drop pod to go in with the rest of the GK or hold an objective. The Imperial Knight is an Errant and I don't need to say too much more than that. So yeah, GK benefit a lot from a little help and it doesn't have to be much. All my allied detachments are just 500 points or below but they add a lot to the table regardless because of how expensive the GK are points wise.

I like this post, it sounds how GK are meant to be: amazing fighting Daemons, but not quite up to the task of fighting other armies. They aren't designed or intended to fight armies with tanks (Daemons have none) or extremely fast moving units (Daemons only have flying Greater Daemons and Princes which Stormravens and Dreadknights fight, and the rest fast stuff are Cavalry and Beasts which are tackled by the infantry like the rest).

Except we aren't so great at fighting daemons apart from shutting down the psychic phase. Everything except the Storm Raven has to Snap-fire at flying Daemons, and they get a Jink, which means it is pointless to reduce their Invulnerable save, because Jinking doesn't effect attacks like Psychic Shriek. Also, taking allies to help fight other factions cuts into the dice pool for denying Chaos summoning.

I don't think factions should be reduced to not being viable on their own.

Except you do realise that that's a matter of meta? In the fluff it would be extremely rare to 4+ Greater Daemons and/or Daemon Princes and a handful of Horrors. Most fluff incursions would involve 1 Greater Daemon and its underlings from the same deity. Or else a number of Greater Daemons leading a mixture of lesser daemons.

Its extremely fluffy to have the GD flying around, unable to be shot down. Also extremely fluffy to think of Stormravens chasing down those FMC and the GD and DP jinking out of the way, smashing them from the air and then dueling on the ground with Grand Masters and Dreadknights while the Knights and Daemons go head to head.

I have never had a problem with daemons...ever, except maybe Nurgle and that is not because of the reasons you stated but just the things that makes a Nurgle army hard to be beat in the first place. You forget that GK have Preferred Enemy when it comes to Daemons and can re-roll everything and it doesn't solve snap shots but it makes it easier. The allies just make dealing with armies a bit more and more like the fluff.

if someone Jinks they can only snap shot next turn. most FMC deamons are T5 or 6 or so, so I'm not sure what the issue here is, a Stormraven should be able to handle it. Anti-air is a specialized Niche. expecting your entire army to be able to deal with fliers is pretty much flying in the face of the basic design intent of the things is

Honestly GKs didn't lose those options as codex Inquistion and codex Assasins now are ou there. So GKs didn't lose them instead all imperial armies gained them.

Orkhead wrote:
Honestly GKs didn't lose those options as codex Inquistion and codex Assasins now are ou there. So GKs didn't lose them instead all imperial armies gained them.

No but the issue for most people that had everything under 1 codex is now everyone must buy multiple codexs at like 100$ Total just to play what you used too have.

 Desubot wrote:

Orkhead wrote:
Honestly GKs didn't lose those options as codex Inquistion and codex Assasins now are ou there. So GKs didn't lose them instead all imperial armies gained them.

No but the issue for most people that had everything under 1 codex is now everyone must buy multiple codexs at like 100$ Total just to play what you used too have.

Isn't that like that for every codex that has come out? Orks had to buy Gazhukul (spelt wrong I know.) Nids bought 3 small data slates still totalling $100. I think only Astra Militaruium are the only ones who didn't have to buy anything. Unless that other guard book was it, but I thought it had units in the AM.

Orkhead wrote:
Honestly GKs didn't lose those options as codex Inquistion and codex Assasins now are ou there. So GKs didn't lose them instead all imperial armies gained them.

If a student bought a school lunch, and the next day he has to pay twice as much for the lunch, and then they tell him that it only gets him the sandwich, and that he has to pay more to get the rest, that would be exactly the same as what GW did to Grey Knights. Inquisition wasn't "made available to other factions". It can fill the regular CAD on its own in the GK codex, so no one had to pay a "HQ/Troop tax" to field them.

As for the Assassins, if they're going to be their own thing, then they need more than the 4 unique single-model units.

Davor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Orkhead wrote:
Honestly GKs didn't lose those options as codex Inquistion and codex Assasins now are ou there. So GKs didn't lose them instead all imperial armies gained them.

No but the issue for most people that had everything under 1 codex is now everyone must buy multiple codexs at like 100$ Total just to play what you used too have.

Isn't that like that for every codex that has come out? Orks had to buy Gazhukul (spelt wrong I know.) Nids bought 3 small data slates still totalling $100. I think only Astra Militaruium are the only ones who didn't have to buy anything. Unless that other guard book was it, but I thought it had units in the AM.

Not sure about Gaz but everything is still in the Nid book and is playble out of the nid book. its not the same thing as having data slates even if it helps em.

Its like saying To play tau you actually need two books to play because the fire base data slate exists.


You CANNOT play inquisitors or Assassins with a GK book alone and REQUIRES you to buy 2 addition digital books to actually play them at the cost of roughly 50 more $.

Dont get me wrong assassins and and inquisition never really belonged in those books and now that 7th CADS are a thing its going to be intresting i think, but its still a slap in the face wallets for those who invested in GK INQ and ASS.

 Desubot wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Orkhead wrote:
Honestly GKs didn't lose those options as codex Inquistion and codex Assasins now are ou there. So GKs didn't lose them instead all imperial armies gained them.

No but the issue for most people that had everything under 1 codex is now everyone must buy multiple codexs at like 100$ Total just to play what you used too have.

Isn't that like that for every codex that has come out? Orks had to buy Gazhukul (spelt wrong I know.) Nids bought 3 small data slates still totalling $100. I think only Astra Militaruium are the only ones who didn't have to buy anything. Unless that other guard book was it, but I thought it had units in the AM.

Not sure about Gaz but everything is still in the Nid book and is playble out of the nid book. its not the same thing as having data slates even if it helps em.

Its like saying To play tau you actually need two books to play because the fire base data slate exists.


You CANNOT play inquisitors or Assassins with a GK book alone and REQUIRES you to buy 2 addition digital books to actually play them at the cost of roughly 50 more $.

Dont get me wrong assassins and and inquisition never really belonged in those books and now that 7th CADS are a thing its going to be intresting i think, but its still a slap in the face wallets for those who invested in GK INQ and ASS.

Oh I agree, it's not right. All I meant was that since Tyranids so basically 2014, any time anyone bought a codex in 2014, they had to spend almost $100 for "complete" book. Yes all books are playable by themselves but the better options are in the other book. That's not right and pretty low for a company to do. I could understand if the books were being sold for like $30 Canadian, but they are being sold double that. Just not right.

It's like we have to pay for all the people who left. 1/2 the people left, so double the price for the the other 1/2 who stayed.

Well it is the DLC edition

Yes it is. Sadly, Day One DLC almost. I guess Week One DLC?

GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

There was not tax on Inquisition. Coteaz is one of the best HQs in the game for the points, and he makes Warbands Troops (in the GK Codex) which means they can fill a Force Organization Chart on their own.

And Assassins could have gotten a Formation that is just a Lone Assassin to make them available to everyone.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

You coulda just bought one dex, the old GK dex. It had it all in one easy package. No one got screwed. The new way, everyone does!

Ok did anyone notice in the new white dwarf the box of the LR only for them. The fact they get their own stormraven shows most likely special weapons only they can use. Then flip to the army of GK later. 2x Twin linked auto cannons. And a new dread psychic dread? So there is 3 most likely upgrades to them.

a GK dread with twin AC options would by itself proably end a lot of complaints. hell it'd turn into one of the more popular released in the past year.


which of course is why I'm sure it's not actually in the kit

It's a conversion as has been pointed out in the N&R thread.

 agnosto wrote:
It's a conversion as has been pointed out in the N&R thread.

yeah, and it's proably right still we can hold onto hope that it's not and they used the peices to actually create a new kit.

hey it's a fool's hope but possiable right. *isn't counting on it but is willing to hope that GW'll give us SOMETHING positive with the relase*

MW- only if you wanted to run coteaz could you run pure inquisition, so it wasn't all available. This way two very shoved together forces can function more appropriately, and can be updated more flexibly.

Sucks froma cost, but it's fairly logical
Also - you're not forced to do anything. Your sense of entitlement is strong. If You don't want to, don't.

I know people don't like having to pay even more money for codices when we could have more things shoved together so that the cost to us isn't that bad but I don't see any malicious intent especially when they first made the Inquisition codex, it was to give access to Inquisitorial forces without having to get a GK codex but still have an Inquisitor be the warlord of any Imperial force and still have them be battle brothers. This has changed in 7th with all Imperial forces being Battle Brothers but the Inquisition keeping their own force since the GK can and do work autonomously, an Inquisitor can just request a group of GK go with him.

The only thing is that I do think the Assassins should of went with the Inquisition but other than that, I actually like the splitting of the codices because it gives people options without all the things they don't want. Also, from a fluff stand point, the Inquisition codex gave Inquisition specific fluff while they got nothing in the GK codex besides their unit entries which I really liked.

So yeah, it sucks that it costs more money but I like it and I do feel it gives players more of a choice about what specifically they are trying to do with their armies. I am just hesitant that GW is handle bar mustache villain trying to steal all of our money.

Honestly, if there was any negativity associated from this it would probably be a design stand point. If you really think about it, the Inquisition codex didn't come out until one key thing happened: People stopped taking actual GK, took Coteaz and made henchman armies with them and those armies did pretty well. Crack open the Inquisition codex and which Inquisitor is featured pretty heavily? Coteaz. So the devs took notice and released an Inquisition specific codex so people could place that way without the bloat from GK codex. Then with the new release of the new hard bound codices (Which are nice and an upgrade from the papaer back. I know they cost more but they are miles above the paper backs in quality.) and wanting to bring every codex so that everyone has that same quality, they release a new GK codex with the Assassins kind of just hanging out so they cut the odd man out of the codex and streamline it. That is my one criticism, Assassins should of went with Inquisition but other than that, I can see why they did it and I am happy they did it since I play a pure GK army with some times adding the Inquisition to be there. I am just unhappy about the loss of Mordrak but then if every single GK can Alpha Strike, I don't care but I do feel the pain of everyone who made the Ghost Knight conversions. I had never gotten around to mine.

 Envihon wrote:
I know people don't like having to pay even more money for codices when we could have more things shoved together so that the cost to us isn't that bad but I don't see any malicious intent especially when they first made the Inquisition codex, it was to give access to Inquisitorial forces without having to get a GK codex but still have an Inquisitor be the warlord of any Imperial force and still have them be battle brothers. This has changed in 7th with all Imperial forces being Battle Brothers but the Inquisition keeping their own force since the GK can and do work autonomously, an Inquisitor can just request a group of GK go with him.

The only thing is that I do think the Assassins should of went with the Inquisition but other than that, I actually like the splitting of the codices because it gives people options without all the things they don't want. Also, from a fluff stand point, the Inquisition codex gave Inquisition specific fluff while they got nothing in the GK codex besides their unit entries which I really liked.

So yeah, it sucks that it costs more money but I like it and I do feel it gives players more of a choice about what specifically they are trying to do with their armies. I am just hesitant that GW is handle bar mustache villain trying to steal all of our money.

Honestly, if there was any negativity associated from this it would probably be a design stand point. If you really think about it, the Inquisition codex didn't come out until one key thing happened: People stopped taking actual GK, took Coteaz and made henchman armies with them and those armies did pretty well. Crack open the Inquisition codex and which Inquisitor is featured pretty heavily? Coteaz. So the devs took notice and released an Inquisition specific codex so people could place that way without the bloat from GK codex. Then with the new release of the new hard bound codices (Which are nice and an upgrade from the papaer back. I know they cost more but they are miles above the paper backs in quality.) and wanting to bring every codex so that everyone has that same quality, they release a new GK codex with the Assassins kind of just hanging out so they cut the odd man out of the codex and streamline it. That is my one criticism, Assassins should of went with Inquisition but other than that, I can see why they did it and I am happy they did it since I play a pure GK army with some times adding the Inquisition to be there. I am just unhappy about the loss of Mordrak but then if every single GK can Alpha Strike, I don't care but I do feel the pain of everyone who made the Ghost Knight conversions. I had never gotten around to mine.

You make good points, but I still feel that if something is broken, you fix it, and you don't just take away the other options to force the players in the direction you want them to go. The fact is that Inquisition and Grey Knights are separately tiny codexes, and the value was much better with them together.

With the ally rules there was literally no point in making the Inquisition Codex except to squeeze money from customers. People could have simply bought the GK codex. It especially makes no sense from the perspective of 7th edition and unbound.

So you see, players would have choice regardless of whether everything was in one codex or three.

 MWHistorian wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

You coulda just bought one dex, the old GK dex. It had it all in one easy package. No one got screwed. The new way, everyone does!

Well no. Under the new system, if I just want assassins or inquisition I pay less. You are advocating that I should pay more, why should I?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForeverARookie wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

There was not tax on Inquisition. Coteaz is one of the best HQs in the game for the points, and he makes Warbands Troops (in the GK Codex) which means they can fill a Force Organization Chart on their own.

And Assassins could have gotten a Formation that is just a Lone Assassin to make them available to everyone.

Irrelevent. I should be able to take an Inquisiton ally without taking a HQ as well. You're being facetious.

KommissarKarl wrote:
Irrelevent. I should be able to take an Inquisiton ally without taking a HQ as well. You're being facetious.

I thought that was the purpose of the whole "unbound" thing, take whatever you want from any codex/supplement/book you want; there's no need to divide up army books into smaller components.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

You coulda just bought one dex, the old GK dex. It had it all in one easy package. No one got screwed. The new way, everyone does!

Well no. Under the new system, if I just want assassins or inquisition I pay less. You are advocating that I should pay more, why should I?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForeverARookie wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

There was not tax on Inquisition. Coteaz is one of the best HQs in the game for the points, and he makes Warbands Troops (in the GK Codex) which means they can fill a Force Organization Chart on their own.

And Assassins could have gotten a Formation that is just a Lone Assassin to make them available to everyone.

Irrelevent. I should be able to take an Inquisiton ally without taking a HQ as well. You're being facetious.

Your way screws over people with existing armies. (GK) The old way screws over people with a pure Inquisition army and let's face it, that's a much smaller percentage. Stop acting like a special snowflake and think of the majority. This is just another way to fleece more money out of people. Next up, Rhino dataslate, only $15!

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

You coulda just bought one dex, the old GK dex. It had it all in one easy package. No one got screwed. The new way, everyone does!

Well no. Under the new system, if I just want assassins or inquisition I pay less. You are advocating that I should pay more, why should I?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ForeverARookie wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
GW Exec - How can we squeeze more money out of our customers? We've already sold them Space Marines, Guard, Knights and a new edition. We must keep the money flowing, but how?
GW Bean Counter - Sir? What if we divide the codecies up, raise the price, and make them buy all of them to play the army they had?
GW Exec - Genius! They'll love it and they'll thank us for making it simplier. Make them pay more for less. That should be our new motto!
GW Bean Counter - Umm...I'm not sure that'll go over too well.

So screw the people who wanted assassins or inquisition but didn't want a full GK codex? And don't want to pay a tax to take them as allies in non-Unbound lists?

There was not tax on Inquisition. Coteaz is one of the best HQs in the game for the points, and he makes Warbands Troops (in the GK Codex) which means they can fill a Force Organization Chart on their own.

And Assassins could have gotten a Formation that is just a Lone Assassin to make them available to everyone.

Irrelevent. I should be able to take an Inquisiton ally without taking a HQ as well. You're being facetious.

What are you talking about? You want Henchmen without an Inquisitor? The only way to do that with either the old or new rules would be to go unbound. Or did you not realise that INQUISITOR Coteaz is part of the Inquisition?

As for the Assassins, $33 for Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Assassins is still a better value than $20 for the rules on 4 lone model Assassin units. So no, it's not irrelevant and I'm not being facetious.

 agnosto wrote:
With the ally rules there was literally no point in making the Inquisition Codex except to squeeze money from customers. People could have simply bought the GK codex. It especially makes no sense from the perspective of 7th edition and unbound.

So you see, players would have choice regardless of whether everything was in one codex or three.

See, I disagree, this pattern of "behavior" from GW doesn't reek of money grubbing but quite frankly, "eureka!" moments. The Inquisition Codex illustrates that by itself but just the whole structure of everything that 7th has brought doesn't feel to me to have any ill will and for the most part since a lot of people already are saying that it is edition 6.5 which it kind of is with the restructuring of the ally matrix, a response to certain metas like jink and flyers, all shows that GW is listening to the community...finally but the problem is that for them to have this kind of turn around, it has been costing us more money but the changes people have been wanting have been happening. From people complaining that they want their army to have the nice hard back codices to the fact that they would like to see campaign boxes like the ones coming with Sanctus Reach. All signs that GW is wanting to turn around what happened in 6th and create a better game as well that they are listening to the community because many of the changes and new things that have come in 7th edition are the changes that I saw suggested here on this first or on BoLS, etc. no matter where it came from, it came from the community and is now in 7th. I support this but these awesome changes come at a cost as GW tries and turn things around.

Things are never going to be perfect and I am not saying to stop criticism because for anything to be good, criticism and critique must go on otherwise these awesome things that happened with 7th, wouldn't of happened but I see this rapid release schedule in the next year as GW trying to get things back on track as well as create a more community driven game as well as the ability to get people into the game more easily. What I am trying to say is kind of bear with it and I might at the end of this eat my words but I just don't see a greed driven business model but a reactionary business model as GW tries to align with the community more.

Should the Inquisitorial forces, GK, SoB, and Assassins just be wrapped up into one solid Codex called Inquisition (With an option to have a Death Watch contingent) be something GW should do? Maybe, it would save us money but the same thing could be argued for the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels but there aren't that many people wanting to have that happen especially the players of those armies, they like having their own codices and recognition that their army has a distinct fluff flavoring as well as a distinct tactical play styles. There is why they were split. Despite being related by fluff the GK play a lot differently than Inquisitorial forces which play like almost a specialized AM contingent with specialized weapons and units unique to them because they are Inquisition. The GKs on the other hand are the Teleporting Deep Striking specialists of 40k now especially with the rumors surrounding this new codex. The meta on how to play them is use their shunting ability or deep strike them, otherwise, you were doing it wrong so the split is just like when they decided to split SW, BA, and DA from the main SM codex. The split happened for the same reason it happened before but you can't make everyone happy and I am sure the same complaints happened during that time as well but those players would never want to go back even if it would be cheaper.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Your way screws over people with existing armies. (GK) The old way screws over people with a pure Inquisition army and let's face it, that's a much smaller percentage. Stop acting like a special snowflake and think of the majority. This is just another way to fleece more money out of people. Next up, Rhino dataslate, only $15!

How am I "acting like a special snowflake"? Inq and Assassins never belonged in GK to begin with, they only put them in because they stopped releasing WD codexes. Now they're split from GK, and people who want to add assassins or inquisition will not have to pay the full GK codex price. They are saving money.

It's fine if you think GW players who already have inq and assassins built into their rules are more important than players who do not, but at least say that, don't just ignore the issue and spam anti-gw hyperbole.

 Envihon wrote:

Should the Inquisitorial forces, GK, SoB, and Assassins just be wrapped up into one solid Codex called Inquisition (With an option to have a Death Watch contingent) be something GW should do? Maybe, it would save us money but the same thing could be argued for the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels but there aren't that many people wanting to have that happen especially the players of those armies, they like having their own codices and recognition that their army has a distinct fluff flavoring as well as a distinct tactical play styles. There is why they were split. Despite being related by fluff the GK play a lot differently than Inquisitorial forces which play like almost a specialized AM contingent with specialized weapons and units unique to them because they are Inquisition. The GKs on the other hand are the Teleporting Deep Striking specialists of 40k now especially with the rumors surrounding this new codex. The meta on how to play them is use their shunting ability or deep strike them, otherwise, you were doing it wrong so the split is just like when they decided to split SW, BA, and DA from the main SM codex. The split happened for the same reason it happened before but you can't make everyone happy and I am sure the same complaints happened during that time as well but those players would never want to go back even if it would be cheaper.

First let me compliment you on a well-reasoned response, devoid of emotional hyperbole.

I rolled-together codex would make a great deal of sense as each of these forces seems to be "unfinished" in that they don't seem to be meant to be fielded on their own merits but require additional support from other sources. It also would have been an opportunity to put the Inquisition "codex" into print. Opportunity lost in my opinion and money lost for GW as I have zero intention of buying into the current trend of ala carte army books releases.

 agnosto wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

Should the Inquisitorial forces, GK, SoB, and Assassins just be wrapped up into one solid Codex called Inquisition (With an option to have a Death Watch contingent) be something GW should do? Maybe, it would save us money but the same thing could be argued for the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels but there aren't that many people wanting to have that happen especially the players of those armies, they like having their own codices and recognition that their army has a distinct fluff flavoring as well as a distinct tactical play styles. There is why they were split. Despite being related by fluff the GK play a lot differently than Inquisitorial forces which play like almost a specialized AM contingent with specialized weapons and units unique to them because they are Inquisition. The GKs on the other hand are the Teleporting Deep Striking specialists of 40k now especially with the rumors surrounding this new codex. The meta on how to play them is use their shunting ability or deep strike them, otherwise, you were doing it wrong so the split is just like when they decided to split SW, BA, and DA from the main SM codex. The split happened for the same reason it happened before but you can't make everyone happy and I am sure the same complaints happened during that time as well but those players would never want to go back even if it would be cheaper.

First let me compliment you on a well-reasoned response, devoid of emotional hyperbole.

I rolled-together codex would make a great deal of sense as each of these forces seems to be "unfinished" in that they don't seem to be meant to be fielded on their own merits but require additional support from other sources. It also would have been an opportunity to put the Inquisition "codex" into print. Opportunity lost in my opinion and money lost for GW as I have zero intention of buying into the current trend of ala carte army books releases.

I would try to argue that the it ultimately saves money for the person wanting to play just Inquisition into their army would be saving money but there is already talk about the Inquisition getting their own hard bound book (But we are still leaving the SoB high and dry? There is a design decision I don't get) so that point would be moot. I do argue as far as the Inquisition forces go that they do seemed unfinished but not so much as the GK because the things that the GK lack to make them a TAC codex are found in other codices and not with the Inquisition. I mean, you could get anti-armor with the Inquisition but the anti-armor I get with my Eldar, Imperial Fists, and Imperial Knight is far superior than what I got with the Inquisition at least that was my experience but you are right, the GK significantly lack the anti-armor capabilities and do rely on allies more than others but again, I think this was a conscious fluff design decision based on the fact that a lot of people didn't like that the GK could be a self-reliant force onto themselves and not the Daemonhunters they were before so they made their point cost a bit higher and gave them this obvious flaw.

One thing that you can't ignore though is that although most Imperial armies can operate autonomously just out of their codex, allying goes a long way for Imperial forces. SM and AM are the best ones that can work just by themselves but you combine forces and it feels a lot more well rounded, again I think it was another design choice by GW. We saw the "What is the point of SM?" thread here and I think having the sides show their strengths and weaknesses in this manner goes to the fluffy reasons why they exist and also show the strategy and tactics about it as well having it proven on the tabletop why the SM and why the AM exist as someone uses both allied with each other to make a better strategy. That is probably why I like the Imperial Forces the most, you get to dip into other codices to make an awesome army which 7th has gone to cater to even more. It is all coming together and I have a feeling this is how GW wanted it. Not so much wanting to run our wallets dry but allow Imperial players to really pick and choose what armies they want to use to represent the Imperium with as well as refine an awesome strategy which other self-contained armies like the Tau and the Eldar don't really get but their single codex is more self reliant than the Imperial codices. It is an attempt at marriage of fluff and game mechanics which for a person like me who makes an army for fluff reasons and not competitive reasons appreciates.

Of course, it is your money and you can choose to support it or not by buying or not buying it which you have chosen to do as I have chosen to buy into it. That is after all how we tell a company whether we truly like something or not. They make a good design decision the community supports it and if not, they go by the way side. This is why they really need to release a SoB hard bound codex with plastic models and I think the community would go nuts for it.

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that you can't ignore though is that although most Imperial armies can operate autonomously just out of their codex, allying goes a long way for Imperial forces. SM and AM are the best ones that can work just by themselves but you combine forces and it feels a lot more well rounded, again I think it was another design choice by GW. We saw the "What is the point of SM?" thread here and I think having the sides show their strengths and weaknesses in this manner goes to the fluffy reasons why they exist and also show the strategy and tactics about it as well having it proven on the tabletop why the SM and why the AM exist as someone uses both allied with each other to make a better strategy. That is probably why I like the Imperial Forces the most, you get to dip into other codices to make an awesome army which 7th has gone to cater to even more. It is all coming together and I have a feeling this is how GW wanted it. Not so much wanting to run our wallets dry but allow Imperial players to really pick and choose what armies they want to use to represent the Imperium with as well as refine an awesome strategy which other self-contained armies like the Tau and the Eldar don't really get but their single codex is more self reliant than the Imperial codices. It is an attempt at marriage of fluff and game mechanics which for a person like me who makes an army for fluff reasons and not competitive reasons appreciates.

You bring up some good points but it feels like GW is almost giving up on certain armies. Like they realized that they couldn't be autonomous on the game table so why bother trying to make them that way, instead let's separate them out and expect players to sort out what they want to do. Though I understand what you and others are saying, and it does provide some flexibility, I can't help feel that they could have accomplished the same thing by leaving them all together. I know that I'm in the minority when I say this but I really dislike allying. I personally want armies that can stand alone without the crutch of bringing in an ally to fill gaps in battlefield needs; by separating the books, I'm now stuck with more than likely losing if I play my GK force because the only anti-tank I'll have is stompy DKs or point expensive storm ravens. And I really, really dislike having to use more than one book for rules; I play once a month (if that) and I will forget rules, my opponent doesn't need to sit for 10 minutes as I sift through a shelf full of reference materials to find what I'm looking for.

Just some thoughts and a general gripe; I'll adjust or I'll shelf the army like I did Tau in 5th.

 agnosto wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that you can't ignore though is that although most Imperial armies can operate autonomously just out of their codex, allying goes a long way for Imperial forces. SM and AM are the best ones that can work just by themselves but you combine forces and it feels a lot more well rounded, again I think it was another design choice by GW. We saw the "What is the point of SM?" thread here and I think having the sides show their strengths and weaknesses in this manner goes to the fluffy reasons why they exist and also show the strategy and tactics about it as well having it proven on the tabletop why the SM and why the AM exist as someone uses both allied with each other to make a better strategy. That is probably why I like the Imperial Forces the most, you get to dip into other codices to make an awesome army which 7th has gone to cater to even more. It is all coming together and I have a feeling this is how GW wanted it. Not so much wanting to run our wallets dry but allow Imperial players to really pick and choose what armies they want to use to represent the Imperium with as well as refine an awesome strategy which other self-contained armies like the Tau and the Eldar don't really get but their single codex is more self reliant than the Imperial codices. It is an attempt at marriage of fluff and game mechanics which for a person like me who makes an army for fluff reasons and not competitive reasons appreciates.

You bring up some good points but it feels like GW is almost giving up on certain armies. Like they realized that they couldn't be autonomous on the game table so why bother trying to make them that way, instead let's separate them out and expect players to sort out what they want to do. Though I understand what you and others are saying, and it does provide some flexibility, I can't help feel that they could have accomplished the same thing by leaving them all together. I know that I'm in the minority when I say this but I really dislike allying. I personally want armies that can stand alone without the crutch of bringing in an ally to fill gaps in battlefield needs; by separating the books, I'm now stuck with more than likely losing if I play my GK force because the only anti-tank I'll have is stompy DKs or point expensive storm ravens. And I really, really dislike having to use more than one book for rules; I play once a month (if that) and I will forget rules, my opponent doesn't need to sit for 10 minutes as I sift through a shelf full of reference materials to find what I'm looking for.

Just some thoughts and a general gripe; I'll adjust or I'll shelf the army like I did Tau in 5th.

I can certainly relate to that because I was in the same position when I first started playing, my lifestyle at my unit wasn't the best for the hobby and I wasn't living with my wife so I was running back forth. A new unit has changed that and I get to play more regularly and now the ally system works heavily in my favor just because it saves money. I am a person who likes a lot of different stuff and I like a small aspect of almost every army despite being a die hard fan of the GK so I get distracted a lot because I also like the Imperial Fists, the Eldar and the Imperial Knights. The allies system let's me experience those armies without having to spend even more money to make full sized armies. I am also a pretty slow painter as I am still working on my GK let alone getting anything else done so it let's me have my main force of my GK that I can focus on with my rotating ally line up to mix things up if I get bored of running pure GK or another of my ally combinations so that is why I kind of champion this system because in the long run it has saved me a lot of money. I have seen people with army ADD and they drop tons of money on a new army or are constantly buying and selling armies. To me, the ally system and lots of codices helps to some what alleviate that problem, at least for me it does. It also provides a basis a future full army since most allied detachments are smaller versions of a full army.

There are pros and cons to having it either way and we have to adjust and adapt as best we can. I wish the GKs were more generalist so I could continue fielding pure GK but that doesn't suit who they are really. The generalists are the SM and AM, with this whole "forge a narrative" I feel that GW is trying to make it that way with the smaller forces like the Inquisition, GK, SoB, and Militarum Tempestus being more specialized forces to supplement the rest of the Imperium but with a adjustments can achieve some autonomy but to do so is a merit to someone strategy and tactical knowledge almost like GW is challenging us to think of different way to use those pure armies but at the same time realize the benefit of allies. Regardless, I will have multiple lists with a list of pure GK, GK with Eldar, GK with Imperial Fists and GK with Imperial Knight. I probably will still pick up the Inquisition codex as well because despite falling out of love and respect for the Inquisition because of the events in The Emperor's Gift and all that happened with Armageddon, I still kind of like them. Also, I have converted specialist models that I want to use from time to time.

 agnosto wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that you can't ignore though is that although most Imperial armies can operate autonomously just out of their codex, allying goes a long way for Imperial forces. SM and AM are the best ones that can work just by themselves but you combine forces and it feels a lot more well rounded, again I think it was another design choice by GW. We saw the "What is the point of SM?" thread here and I think having the sides show their strengths and weaknesses in this manner goes to the fluffy reasons why they exist and also show the strategy and tactics about it as well having it proven on the tabletop why the SM and why the AM exist as someone uses both allied with each other to make a better strategy. That is probably why I like the Imperial Forces the most, you get to dip into other codices to make an awesome army which 7th has gone to cater to even more. It is all coming together and I have a feeling this is how GW wanted it. Not so much wanting to run our wallets dry but allow Imperial players to really pick and choose what armies they want to use to represent the Imperium with as well as refine an awesome strategy which other self-contained armies like the Tau and the Eldar don't really get but their single codex is more self reliant than the Imperial codices. It is an attempt at marriage of fluff and game mechanics which for a person like me who makes an army for fluff reasons and not competitive reasons appreciates.

You bring up some good points but it feels like GW is almost giving up on certain armies. Like they realized that they couldn't be autonomous on the game table so why bother trying to make them that way, instead let's separate them out and expect players to sort out what they want to do. Though I understand what you and others are saying, and it does provide some flexibility, I can't help feel that they could have accomplished the same thing by leaving them all together. I know that I'm in the minority when I say this but I really dislike allying. I personally want armies that can stand alone without the crutch of bringing in an ally to fill gaps in battlefield needs; by separating the books, I'm now stuck with more than likely losing if I play my GK force because the only anti-tank I'll have is stompy DKs or point expensive storm ravens. And I really, really dislike having to use more than one book for rules; I play once a month (if that) and I will forget rules, my opponent doesn't need to sit for 10 minutes as I sift through a shelf full of reference materials to find what I'm looking for.

Just some thoughts and a general gripe; I'll adjust or I'll shelf the army like I did Tau in 5th.

I don't think they are giving up on Grey Knights, if anything, it feels more like GW has finally figured out how they want to represent the various armies of the IoM. It NEVER made sense that the Inquisition and Assassins were rolled into the GK codex. Sure, it worked for the inquisition specific codexes of 3rd edition, because Inquisitors were the focus and GKs were just a form of ally. But with the shift to Grey Knights as the focal point, it was just a lazy approach to roll those Inquisition and Assassin units in with them. As far as losing economical anti-tank, aren't GKs gaining access to the standard Space Marine tanks such as predators, vindicators, and whirlwinds?

Does it suck for those GK players that built a significant portion of their army around inquisitors and assassins? Sure, because now they have to drop another $50 US on two e-books to still use the models in their collection. However, its a huge boon for those of us that play non-GK imperial armies that have long wanted to include an inquisitor and/or assassin, and it actually makes sense to have them this way.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Does it suck for those GK players that built a significant portion of their army around inquisitors and assassins? Sure, because now they have to drop another $50 US on two e-books to still use the models in their collection. However, its a huge boon for those of us that play non-GK imperial armies that have long wanted to include an inquisitor and/or assassin, and it actually makes sense to have them this way.

But you've been able to bring Inquisition and Assassins in since 6th edition because of allies and especially now in 7th, in the age of "unbound". I get the separation but in the same sense I guess it feels unnecessary because "one book to rule them all" is just simpler and makes it easier for part-time gamers like me who will have to fiddle with several books to find rules that I'll need to play. I don't care about the cost of the books, for me it's a convenience issue.

(sorry, starting to sound like a broken record)

It's not the end of the world for me, I'm primarily GK but liked to sprinkle Inquisition in for flavor and to fill holes; I just don't like being forced to reference too many sources during a game (see my signature), it takes quite a bit of the fun out of playing a game.

In my opinion, if the rumors that the Psycannon can only be fired up to 12" on the move by models in Power Armour, that is the single worst change in this codex.

I think we can come to forgive the loss of Assassins and Inquisition. I'll even give Mordrak and Thawn a moment of silence, but gimping the workhorse of the Grey Knight army down to practically pistol range is worth all the hate people can muster. It destroys the only weapon the power armored troops could used to face off against vehicles and Monstrous Creatures at more than 8" away. Their only options have been reduced to the Incinerator (8.5" Template), Psycannon (12"), and the Psilencer (Still worthless, even with Force)

But we can hope against hope that GW had the sense to make the Psycannon a 36" Salvo instead of leaving it at 24".

ForeverARookie wrote:
In my opinion, if the rumors that the Psycannon can only be fired up to 12" on the move by models in Power Armour, that is the single worst change in this codex.

I think we can come to forgive the loss of Assassins and Inquisition. I'll even give Mordrak and Thawn a moment of silence, but gimping the workhorse of the Grey Knight army down to practically pistol range is worth all the hate people can muster. It destroys the only weapon the power armored troops could used to face off against vehicles and Monstrous Creatures at more than 8" away. Their only options have been reduced to the Incinerator (8.5" Template), Psycannon (12"), and the Psilencer (Still worthless, even with Force)

But we can hope against hope that GW had the sense to make the Psycannon a 36" Salvo instead of leaving it at 24".

This is the first time I have heard about this. Do you have a link to where these rumors come from? To do this would utterly take the point away from taking Psycannons on anyone except for Terminators which may be the reason why they reduced the cost of them.

The rumor thread as it atm

Some one on 4chan has the book (with pictures)

Im more sad at the nemesis weapon nerfs

And psychic out grenades no longer making initative 1 instead of being a god damnned defensive grenade against psyker/daemons....

 Envihon wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:
In my opinion, if the rumors that the Psycannon can only be fired up to 12" on the move by models in Power Armour, that is the single worst change in this codex.

I think we can come to forgive the loss of Assassins and Inquisition. I'll even give Mordrak and Thawn a moment of silence, but gimping the workhorse of the Grey Knight army down to practically pistol range is worth all the hate people can muster. It destroys the only weapon the power armored troops could used to face off against vehicles and Monstrous Creatures at more than 8" away. Their only options have been reduced to the Incinerator (8.5" Template), Psycannon (12"), and the Psilencer (Still worthless, even with Force)

But we can hope against hope that GW had the sense to make the Psycannon a 36" Salvo instead of leaving it at 24".

This is the first time I have heard about this. Do you have a link to where these rumors come from? To do this would utterly take the point away from taking Psycannons on anyone except for Terminators which may be the reason why they reduced the cost of them.

The person on Bolter and Chainsword with the codex confirmed salvo on the psycannon 2/4 and 3/6 (heavy). He did not confirm the range (to my knowledge) but the assumption is no change so 12" move and shoot or 24" stationary.

Terminators of course can "run and gun".

 Desubot wrote:
The rumor thread as it atm

Some one on 4chan has the book (with pictures)

Im more sad at the nemesis weapon nerfs

And psychic out grenades no longer making initative 1 instead of being a god damnned defensive grenade against psyker/daemons....

Yeah I looked it up. If it is true, umm...Psylencers just became the new Psycannons against Monstrous Creatures...especially a Nemesis Dreadknight with a Gatling Psylencer. We will have to see but the Psycannons days might be numbered on regular troops.

Not exactly.

Lacking in the AP section at ST4 to generally what will be t5+ then armor and other goodies. + casting (which shouldn't be that hard)

It will however be AWESOME at taking out Necron Wraiths and possibly spawns (which i hate those guys)

I am kind of not surprised that they turned Psycannons into Salvo weapons, it goes with the assault portion of the army to try and make your GKSS and Interceptors want to get into Assault range and it honestly gives purpose to Purgation squads again giving them their function as a heavy weapons team. That being said, I still don't think they will be used and we are going to have to deal with Psycannons being Salvo. Still a ranged Force weapon is kind of nuts.

So there are a few things I don't like but it will do one thing that I want to happen: Bring back GK Terminators into being useful again. Relentless still let's them fire full Salvo doesn't it?

Scans of the whole book are up in the N+R thread chaps, no need to speculate any more!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Scans of the whole book are up in the N+R thread chaps, no need to speculate any more!

no need to buy anymore

Can't believe no one's pointed out yet, Libby now comes with Nemesis Ward Stave STANDARD. Coupled with ML3, thats a 3+ DTW in almost any situation...

DTW being nearly pointless considering the best spells 90% of the time are blessings...

Is so dumbs.



Also looks like no relic terminator armor techmarines since it has to replace terminator armor......

Hot damn a fully kitted out NDK (Heavy Psy, Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter, Sword) for only 225 pts!?

Yep Codex: Dreadknights is a go.

Dreadknights are going to be huge, not that they already weren't. I might as well retired my Dreadnoughts now and buy a third Dreadknight and now my Dreadknight with the Heavy Psycannon actually becomes useful again instead of having to tell people that it isn't actually there but the reduced cost is going to open up a lot of things especially if you go with the standard template of DK. Still disappointed by the Psycannon going Salvo but it is permanent Rending so that is a plus.

Well no real 3 dread knights considering the force org is 2 HS

So you will need some double cad action for the 3rd

 Envihon wrote:
Dreadknights are going to be huge, not that they already weren't. I might as well retired my Dreadnoughts now and buy a third Dreadknight and now my Dreadknight with the Heavy Psycannon actually becomes useful again instead of having to tell people that it isn't actually there but the reduced cost is going to open up a lot of things especially if you go with the standard template of DK. Still disappointed by the Psycannon going Salvo but it is permanent Rending so that is a plus.

figures they would push the baby carrier even harder.

Hmm no one seems to confrim on NR.

It seems that you might possibly never be able to get Objective secured since they have there own specific cad detachment that only have command benefits of reroll WLT and T1 Deepstrikage

Also cant seem to confirm if the types of cad detachments are optional.

 agnosto wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that you can't ignore though is that although most Imperial armies can operate autonomously just out of their codex, allying goes a long way for Imperial forces. SM and AM are the best ones that can work just by themselves but you combine forces and it feels a lot more well rounded, again I think it was another design choice by GW. We saw the "What is the point of SM?" thread here and I think having the sides show their strengths and weaknesses in this manner goes to the fluffy reasons why they exist and also show the strategy and tactics about it as well having it proven on the tabletop why the SM and why the AM exist as someone uses both allied with each other to make a better strategy. That is probably why I like the Imperial Forces the most, you get to dip into other codices to make an awesome army which 7th has gone to cater to even more. It is all coming together and I have a feeling this is how GW wanted it. Not so much wanting to run our wallets dry but allow Imperial players to really pick and choose what armies they want to use to represent the Imperium with as well as refine an awesome strategy which other self-contained armies like the Tau and the Eldar don't really get but their single codex is more self reliant than the Imperial codices. It is an attempt at marriage of fluff and game mechanics which for a person like me who makes an army for fluff reasons and not competitive reasons appreciates.

You bring up some good points but it feels like GW is almost giving up on certain armies. Like they realized that they couldn't be autonomous on the game table so why bother trying to make them that way, instead let's separate them out and expect players to sort out what they want to do. Though I understand what you and others are saying, and it does provide some flexibility, I can't help feel that they could have accomplished the same thing by leaving them all together. I know that I'm in the minority when I say this but I really dislike allying. I personally want armies that can stand alone without the crutch of bringing in an ally to fill gaps in battlefield needs; by separating the books, I'm now stuck with more than likely losing if I play my GK force because the only anti-tank I'll have is stompy DKs or point expensive storm ravens. And I really, really dislike having to use more than one book for rules; I play once a month (if that) and I will forget rules, my opponent doesn't need to sit for 10 minutes as I sift through a shelf full of reference materials to find what I'm looking for.

Just some thoughts and a general gripe; I'll adjust or I'll shelf the army like I did Tau in 5th.

Not to sound like I'm mitigating the issue, but I always found that writing things down saves me a boatload of time. Then again, I always prepare lists ahead of time. In my area, we don't have people loitering in the store to play pick ups. We often plan them a week in advance or so. I'll write down any special rules that go with the units/weapons, so I have it right in front of me (Along with page number for opponents who wish to read it themselves from the source). This keeps me from having to keep picking up my stuff. By the time the new Ork book came out, I was a master of my book, knowing all the rules/points by heart. Of course, now with a new book, I'm back to jotting stuff down so I don't need to flip open my book every time I forget. I can just pick up my piece of paper with everything right there.

Just my .02 on that sort of issue. Though I will agree it would get pretty tedious if Orks had a book for severy Klan (Which...they might soon? Who knows...) and I'd have to bring those books with me every time I played. But, I can (for the most part) keep them in my backpack and out of mind unless someone things I'm lieing and wants to read it themselves. But, page is on my paper so I can flip right to it for them.

So did I miss something or did they get rid of Psybolt ammo? That is one loss that I might feel and morn quite hard but I am thinking about so much that I could do right now.

Despite the losses of things, taking the Nemesis Strike Force and basically being able to start with nothing on the ground first turn is pretty awesome not to mention the fact that Dreadknights can Deep Strike now as well as teleport is freaking amazing. Deep Strike them where you need and then save the shunt is just unbelievably good. I will not be surprised if we see Unbound Dreadknight lists.

Honestly, we took some nerfs but what we gained is huge imo. I can have the Deep Striking army I have always wanted and that is awesome. The Nemesis Strike Force formation is going to hinge on going 2nd in a turn with nothing for them to shoot at. It gives a huge distinct advantage to the GK. Albeit, you can only take 2 Fast attacks and 2 Heavy which is probably to prevent people abusing the Shunters too much especially the DKs.

With the amount of cost reduction and everything, I am pretty excited and I am happy to see the return of my Terminators to the field.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Scans of the whole book are up in the N+R thread chaps, no need to speculate any more!

Where is this N+R thread?

 Envihon wrote:
So did I miss something or did they get rid of Psybolt ammo? That is one loss that I might feel and morn quite hard but I am thinking about so much that I could do right now.

Nobody knows. They have been integrated into the units now is a theory. Thing is we are guessing, we just don't know.

Looks like Psybolt is gone from what the scans show.

The changes to the Nemesis Force Weapons is interesting, automatically upgrading Swords looks to be pretty much assured, Halberds are very good but different. Falchions might see use? Termi's are cheap now.

Looks like they cut out a bunch of the powerful but fidgety/controversial wargear and rules, cut costs on some units and options, make Dreadnoughts totally pointless and Dreadknights auto-take, made killy HQ's very expensive and Librarians very cheap, and gave them some relatively powerful army wide special rules, particularly when Deep Striking.

What about the Stormraven. Did I miss something, or did it lose the side sponsons, as well as the ability to exhchange the Heavy bolter and Assault Cannon for aTwin-linked Lascannon and Multi-melta?

I was wondering that about the Stormraven as well. And I am pretty sure the Grand Master is actually cheaper and is now a Psychic Mastery Level 2.

I also think that Halberds in the least are pretty much going to be a must take for all squads since they are that cheap for everyone giving +1 S which means with Hammerhand it is going to be a +3 S giving every unit a 7 S which allows more wounds and that means that they will be able to crack armor 12 in melee. Kind of sucks though because I have nothing but swords on my guys, or hammers so I am definitely going to be out of wysiwyg even more now until I can get around getting new models and giving them halberds. My Terminators are fine though.

It kind of has me wondering what the point of having Interceptors though since with the new Deep Striking rules, you kind of don't need to have them shunting anymore and it would be cheaper to just take GKSS and keep them in reserves unless you are worried that you won't have half your force on the board by the end of turn one. Instead, you could have two Stormravens filling the Fast Attack slots and just have GKSS and Terminators filling the Troops and then DKs filling the Heavy slots.

 Envihon wrote:
Yeah I looked it up. If it is true, umm...Psylencers just became the new Psycannons against Monstrous Creatures...especially a Nemesis Dreadknight with a Gatling Psylencer. We will have to see but the Psycannons days might be numbered on regular troops.

The new psylencer is pretty ass against Monstrous Creatures, tbh. Due to being strength 4 AP- it can't even hurt Wraithknights, and statistically needs ~54 shots at BS4 to put one wound on a Riptide or swooping T6 5++ FMC.

Those three types of MC's pretty much make up the super majority of MC's that you'll see on the field. Even for when you come across the relatively obscure walking MC, like a Carnifex, it takes ~27 shots from a Psylencer to put one wound on a T6 3+sv MC. So with a Gatling Psylencer Dreadknight, that's about 3 straight turns of shooting to kill a single Carnifex.

- - -

Has anyone seen the prices for psylencers? Taking them en masse could be their saving grace.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
Yeah I looked it up. If it is true, umm...Psylencers just became the new Psycannons against Monstrous Creatures...especially a Nemesis Dreadknight with a Gatling Psylencer. We will have to see but the Psycannons days might be numbered on regular troops.

The new psylencer is pretty ass against Monstrous Creatures, tbh. Due to being strength 4 AP- it can't even hurt Wraithknights, and statistically needs ~54 shots at BS4 to put one wound on a Riptide or swooping T6 5++ FMC.

Those three types of MC's pretty much make up the super majority of MC's that you'll see on the field. Even for when you come across the relatively obscure walking MC, like a Carnifex, it takes ~27 shots from a Psylencer to put one wound on a T6 3+sv MC. So with a Gatling Psylencer Dreadknight, that's about 3 straight turns of shooting to kill a single Carnifex.

- - -

Has anyone seen the prices for psylencers? Taking them en masse could be their saving grace.

So mass shooting to bring down enemies. I guess that means Grey knights are just guardsmen with better armor and a fraction of the models. Force doesn't add much to the Psilencer. Still being S4 means a lot of things it can't hurt at all. The bigger change is that the Psycannon's range has been reduced to uselessness (if they are close enough to shoot it, they're close enough to charge, and being as the two are mutually exclusive, the unit should charge every time). As of the release of this new codex, the Incinerator is the best specialist weapon option. as the other two sacrifice too much for too little in return.

Wraithknights... no one runs those! PSH!

ForeverARookie wrote:
What about the Stormraven. Did I miss something, or did it lose the side sponsons, as well as the ability to exhchange the Heavy bolter and Assault Cannon for aTwin-linked Lascannon and Multi-melta?

He didnt post the 2nd page with the points and trade options for the stormraven. Its pretty much the same points/swaps though as the raven is now

 Desubot wrote:
Hmm no one seems to confrim on NR.

It seems that you might possibly never be able to get Objective secured since they have there own specific cad detachment that only have command benefits of reroll WLT and T1 Deepstrikage

Also cant seem to confirm if the types of cad detachments are optional.

No need to confirm it, as the BRB states you can use the CAD and Allies.

There is ONE CAD. ONE. The one from the BRB. Everything else is just another named type of detachment, which its own command benefits.

I'll happily swap OS for T1 DS

 Envihon wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:
In my opinion, if the rumors that the Psycannon can only be fired up to 12" on the move by models in Power Armour, that is the single worst change in this codex.

I think we can come to forgive the loss of Assassins and Inquisition. I'll even give Mordrak and Thawn a moment of silence, but gimping the workhorse of the Grey Knight army down to practically pistol range is worth all the hate people can muster. It destroys the only weapon the power armored troops could used to face off against vehicles and Monstrous Creatures at more than 8" away. Their only options have been reduced to the Incinerator (8.5" Template), Psycannon (12"), and the Psilencer (Still worthless, even with Force)

But we can hope against hope that GW had the sense to make the Psycannon a 36" Salvo instead of leaving it at 24".

This is the first time I have heard about this. Do you have a link to where these rumors come from? To do this would utterly take the point away from taking Psycannons on anyone except for Terminators which may be the reason why they reduced the cost of them.

Please find a summary of the weapons here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/607598.page
page 53.

A lot of people are spelling doom and gloom on this new Codex for the Grey Knights and I get their arguments but I still don't see it really especially with the cost reduction of everything. Yes, Psycannon went to Salvo but is now always rending. A unit that is going to kill something in CC should be in 12" anyway. My GKSS and GK Interceptors have rarely been not that close.

Terminators are viable with us again and still get their benefits of the Psycannon. DKs are even better since they cost less and can have two cannons strapped to their wrists for less than the price that they were to have one with a great sword and teleporter. Not to mention that with the Nemesis Strike Force formation we can Deep Strike turn 1. We can be like Drop Pod armies and start Turn 1 with nothing on the table, have them go first and then drop everything on our turn thus denying them a turn. That is a huge advantage that people really aren't seeing the value of.

The two things I am most disappointed in is the loss of Psybolt ammunition and the Halberds not adding +2 I but it does do +1 S so added in Hammerhand and most squads would be able to dismantle Armor 12.

People are right that we didn't solve our anti-armor problem with DKs or a Stormraven our best options but I long reconciled this with taking allies.

My biggest issues after looking at the scans are the loss of psybolt ammo and the fact that I now feel GK can only be run either with Allies or as Allies.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
My biggest issues after looking at the scans are the loss of psybolt ammo and the fact that I now feel GK can only be run either with Allies or as Allies.

I feel that you are right but in a way it makes them come in line with the fluff. The GKs rarely work without some kind of supporting force while they go in to take care of the daemons. In all pieces of fluff written about them, it has always been this way especially counting the fact that they have mind wipe or kill you after seeing them. Grimnar used them in that way as 100 GKs teleported in to take care of Angron, the SW played their part in keeping everyone away so the GK could do their thing without being seen. It makes the Nemesis Strike Force seem more relevant but feth if I won't mourn the loss of psybolt ammunition.

I love the idea of being able to deep strike turn 1 but I also love purifiers so I'm conflicted on how to use them... perhaps putting them in Stormravens or allying drop pods from Space Wolves?

I guess they could just start on the board in Rhinos but that kind of defeats the point of denying my opponent a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:
Yes, Psycannon went to Salvo but is now always rending.

What do you mean by 'now always rending'? Weren't they always rending before?

Zimko wrote:
I love the idea of being able to deep strike turn 1 but I also love purifiers so I'm conflicted on how to use them... perhaps putting them in Stormravens or allying drop pods from Space Wolves?

I guess they could just start on the board in Rhinos but that kind of defeats the point of denying my opponent a turn.

I was looking at that and with the buffs Purifiers have gotten, for once I am considering using them in game but that is the problem is that they don't deep strike like the rest of the army does. Heck, even the DK can Deep Strike now so the only thing would be to hold them in a Raven, and then Deep Strike them from the Raven so that they function like the rest of the army. Their attacks put Soul Blaze on the target, plus they have Hammerhand and they have Cleansing Flame. Purifiers did get a huge buff but at the same time they aren't as portable as the rest of the army. You could also stick in a Land Raider and keep the the Land Raider off the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:
I love the idea of being able to deep strike turn 1 but I also love purifiers so I'm conflicted on how to use them... perhaps putting them in Stormravens or allying drop pods from Space Wolves?

I guess they could just start on the board in Rhinos but that kind of defeats the point of denying my opponent a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:
Yes, Psycannon went to Salvo but is now always rending.

What do you mean by 'now always rending'? Weren't they always rending before?

If you fired a Psycannon as an Assault weapon because you moved that turn, you only got to fire two shots and you would loose the Rending aspect of the Psycannon while if you didn't move and fired the Psycannon you got 4 shots with Rending. Now with it changed to Salvo, you get Rending no matter which of the modes you firing in.

Wow, I never realized the assault 2 version did not have rending. I've been playing that wrong. Oops.

I'm unfamiliar with how you deep strike a flyer. If you do so with the Storm Raven, is there anywhere that you can deploy the men inside since there's no spot on the board that the Storm Raven 'moved over?'?

You cannot Deep Strike a Storm Raven and the special detachment only allows units that are Deep Striking to be rolled for turn 1.

Zimko wrote:
Wow, I never realized the assault 2 version did not have rending. I've been playing that wrong. Oops.

I'm unfamiliar with how you deep strike a flyer. If you do so with the Storm Raven, is there anywhere that you can deploy the men inside since there's no spot on the board that the Storm Raven 'moved over?'?

Ah, so playing the Psycannon that way I can see why it would be a major nerf. In reality based on how it was functioning before, it was acting like a Salvo weapon just without the distance reduction but hey, I will take that Rending on both modes now. Like I said, the units that will be effected by the Salvo shouldn't be that far away from their targets in the first place.

When you have a Flyer come in from Reserves, you have to move in at least 18" from your side of the board. I believe the rule is called "Fury of the Skies", it is something like that either way the special rule is that if the flyer has moved more than 6" during your turn you can still drop off the troops they are carrying but you have to Deep Strike them out of the Flyer and only in the path that the Flyer took from it's starting point to it's ending point. That is how you would have to "Deep Strike" Purifiers. The one problem would just be the 18" so they might be delayed an additional turn if you can't put them exactly where you wanted so it might be imperative to get the Raven on the board Turn 1 and have your Purifiers hit the board Turn 2 unless you can get your flyer where you need it on the turn that it comes in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
You cannot Deep Strike a Storm Raven and the special detachment only allows units that are Deep Striking to be rolled for turn 1.

See I took it as you are allowed you have any Grey Knight Reserves arrive on Turn 1. I might have to go re-read that. Edit: Yeah it is only Deep Strike Reserves so a Flyer will still have to wait until Turn 2 which means you might have to wait until Turn 3 to get your Purifiers.

Zimko wrote:
Wow, I never realized the assault 2 version did not have rending. I've been playing that wrong. Oops.

I'm unfamiliar with how you deep strike a flyer. If you do so with the Storm Raven, is there anywhere that you can deploy the men inside since there's no spot on the board that the Storm Raven 'moved over?'?

The Psycannon profile was "Assault 2 or Heavy 4, Rending"

My understanding is that everything between a pair of commas go together. (Assault 2 or Heavy 4), Rending. That would mean that Rending applies to all shots made by the Psycannon. Also, there was never an FAQ to say otherwise.

Most of the folks on here seem to have taken the alternate approach and chosen to split the profile at the "or". Assault 2, or (Heavy 4, Rending).

I still hold with the first interpretation, and the new Salvo profile seems to confirm it.

Yea I always played it as Rending either way you fired it

Ditto with the rending.

I've never seen anyone not use Rending on the "assault 2" profile...

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've never seen anyone not use Rending on the "assault 2" profile...

Same here, but most of the threads I've looked at here take that position, and it doesn't make sense to me. It would be very awkward for that to be for format if the Rending was not intended to apply to the Assault 2 profile.

Ah, then maybe I was told the wrong interpretation of the rules because when I was first starting my GK I played against a guy that when I tried to apply Rending to the Assault function he told me it didn't work like that because the rule would of been written like this Assault 2, Rending or Heavy 4, Rending. I do believe I was lied to so that I wasn't about to score the penetrating shot on his vehicle. This was a long time ago but it was my first almost board wipe crushing defeat I had and now I kind of know why. Makes me wonder what else he lied about as I made rules clarifications with him, Leaves me a bit bitter but that was long in the past and I don't play with that gaming group anymore.

In that case, yeah Salvo does hurt non-Terminator units a lot more than I first thought but I will have to see how much it hurts my overall strategy. I still think that with the point lower cost and the Salvo, Terminators are finally worth their points and honestly I think we are going to see the basic allied detachment of GK HQ combined with Terminators and maybe a DK.

HQ Librarian, Terminators and a DK all being allowed to Deep Strike first turn will be a great allied force.

I've been using psycannons on Purifiers in a Rhino. Firing them as Heavy 4 with snap shots at 24" range on the move. Obviously the new Salvo rule puts a complete stop to this. It also nerfs their overwatch killing power for when the Rhino is charged.

So now I'm thinking of using incinerators or psi-lencers but i dread remodelling all those psycannons (10 of them for 5 squads).

For me, it doesn't change much. I might convert over to the incinerators but I am not totally sure whether I would want to do it or not. With the loss of Psybolts, I kind of feel that they are going to need the Psycannons still especially against an armored opponent and unfortunately.

I also used Deep Strike exclusively so this codex works heavily in my favor. I am so glad I didn't get around to converting my Terminators over to Ghost Knights though and I still have a chance of getting the awesome Alpha Strike ability that Mordrak used to have. Although, now it is just re-roll your scatter instead of just putting him where you want. I feel that even with the buff the Purifiers got, they still left them high and dry seeing as they heavily favor deep striking things in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I have been calculating the potential of the Librarian that comes stock with the Warding Staff and his Deny the Witch ability is kind of insane. AW +1, being a Psyker +1, and if the Librarian is a higher Psyker level another +1 to Deny the Witch giving the Librarian and those 12" around him a +3 Deny the Witch for Offensive powers. That is insane and it makes so that the Librarian is going to be a must take HQ for every army.

Zimko wrote:
HQ Librarian, Terminators and a DK all being allowed to Deep Strike first turn will be a great allied force.

I've been using psycannons on Purifiers in a Rhino. Firing them as Heavy 4 with snap shots at 24" range on the move. Obviously the new Salvo rule puts a complete stop to this. It also nerfs their overwatch killing power for when the Rhino is charged.

So now I'm thinking of using incinerators or psi-lencers but i dread remodelling all those psycannons (10 of them for 5 squads).

Same here, I put Purifiers as Combat Squads in a Rhino, so 1 Psycannon Purifier from each combat squad was firing, so they could each manifest their own Cleansing Flame if the enemy got too close to the Rhino. And if the Rhino got popped, there would be 4 Psycannons to punish whatever unit did so.

I have a total of 21 Psycannons modeled on Purifiers (it's a big army). There's no way I'm changing out so many Psycannons, so I'll have to find opponents that will let me sub them as Incinerators.

I forgot all about the Ghost Knights. I have 4 of them painted grey/white with cotton around their feet for a ghostly effect. And now they're not even in the codex. I guess repainting them to normal colors won't be hard...

Zimko wrote:
I forgot all about the Ghost Knights. I have 4 of them painted grey/white with cotton around their feet for a ghostly effect. And now they're not even in the codex. I guess repainting them to normal colors won't be hard...

Why Repaint them?
I would leave them if they look cool.

Well I only have 4 of them so they'd only fit in as a paladin squad. The 5th model in the box was used to make Mordrak who now is a Grand Master with a hammer and cape.

I probably won't repaint them and just keep them around as a novelty.

Thought units firing out of transports counted as "relentless"

Or am I thinking of something else?

Zimko wrote:
Well I only have 4 of them so they'd only fit in as a paladin squad. The 5th model in the box was used to make Mordrak who now is a Grand Master with a hammer and cape.

I probably won't repaint them and just keep them around as a novelty.

Or add a couple to make a cool bodyguard for your new Grand Master.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Thought units firing out of transports counted as "relentless"

Or am I thinking of something else?

No, but they do get "fearless". If the vehicle moves at all then the unit inside counts as moving. If it moves at cruising speed then they can only make snap shots.

Ok that must have been what I was thinking then

Buying a cheap Comms Relay and having a Shuntknight or Interceptors man it might be a good combo with omni-Deep Strike. Everything comes in on a 3+ with rerolls and then you just shunt to support. Most of your army'd be murdering a flank turn 1. Same principle as Mordrak-bomb, although there's still scatter to worry about.

Yeah, this codex hurts. GKs were already struggling to compete, but this just shoves them down even further. A lot of their unique wargear got dumbed down (nemesis weapon nerfs) while others got removed (psybolts, mindstrike missiles). Very little in compensation in terms of new wargear, units, or abilities that were not present before. Honestly, they should have just skipped making this codex until they had a better idea of how to make GK unique without being OP. As of now, they could have just tacked the DK and a generic GK squad into the SM codex with how bad this codex is.

 zephoid wrote:
Yeah, this codex hurts. GKs were already struggling to compete, but this just shoves them down even further. A lot of their unique wargear got dumbed down (nemesis weapon nerfs) while others got removed (psybolts, mindstrike missiles). Very little in compensation in terms of new wargear, units, or abilities that were not present before. Honestly, they should have just skipped making this codex until they had a better idea of how to make GK unique without being OP. As of now, they could have just tacked the DK and a generic GK squad into the SM codex with how bad this codex is.

I am really trying to not have this view. I understand we lost stuff but I would like to think it isn't this crippling and the fact is that we got some awesome stuff in the Codex as well. It certainly makes some units worth more than others but I don't think it has destroyed the army. DKs dual wielding Psycannons and Incinerators with Greatsword and Teleporter are definitely going to be the big thing now and I think Terminators are going to come back in a big way but I don't feel like the army got destroyed, we just didn't get the self sufficiency that some wanted but others feel were OP. There were a lot of complaints about Psybolt ammo apparently saying it gave GK too much of an advantage. I happen to think they are wrong but I feel like GK players will be able to adapt and move on. Do really want to start sounding like CSM players?

About the psycannon:

Take the profile of an assault cannon for example.

It says: Heavy 4, Rending.

Not Heavy 4 Rending

Thus, if the Psycannon were to always be rending, GW would have to write it longhand: Assault 2, Rending or Heavy 4, Rending.

 Sir Arun wrote:


Thus, if the Psycannon were to always be rending, GW would have to write it longhand: Assault 2, Rending or Heavy 4, Rending.

Or you could take it as follows:

(Type and number of shots), (Special Rules), as in (Assault 2 or Assault 4), (Rending).

 Sir Arun wrote:
About the psycannon:

Take the profile of an assault cannon for example.

It says: Heavy 4, Rending.

Not Heavy 4 Rending

Thus, if the Psycannon were to always be rending, GW would have to write it longhand: Assault 2, Rending or Heavy 4, Rending.

See this is what I always thought so I seeing the fact that even though the Psycannon went Salvo, we at least get Rending on it no matter what. Still a nerf but not as bad of a nerf.

I am very intrigued to see how the new Grey Knights turn out, as I currently only have 7x Grey Knight Models (Strike Marines, 6x SB, Nemesis Sword, 1x SB, Daemon Hammer), and I look forward to the new book. Biggest thing I am really curious about is to see how the Crowe formation turns out, as I have always been intrigued by the Purifier list, however I am also curious to see what GW will do to make the Strike Squads a more appealing choice. Will be nice to see how it turns out so that we can see more variety other then the traditional Terminator or Draigo-Wing lists.

As for the Psycannon, I have always rolled the Assault version as Rending, as it clearly says Heavy 4, Assault 2, Rending. Doesn't specify that the Heavy 4 is the only rending shot, as if that where case, it wold read as such: Heavy 4, Rending, Assault 2. Anyone who tries to argue that it isn't is clearly trying to cheat you out of your weapons ability, which isn't right at all and I hate people who do that. That being said, with Psybolt Ammo apparently gone, does that mean that our weapons will automatically come with it then?

 Rommel44 wrote:
I am very intrigued to see how the new Grey Knights turn out, as I currently only have 7x Grey Knight Models (Strike Marines, 6x SB, Nemesis Sword, 1x SB, Daemon Hammer), and I look forward to the new book. Biggest thing I am really curious about is to see how the Crowe formation turns out, as I have always been intrigued by the Purifier list, however I am also curious to see what GW will do to make the Strike Squads a more appealing choice. Will be nice to see how it turns out so that we can see more variety other then the traditional Terminator or Draigo-Wing lists.

The book is already leaked online. Crowe is worse and had a price increase and Draigo is better and had a price decrease. The same happened with strikes squads and terminators. Draigowing with 3 dreadknights is the only power list int the book at first glance.

Agtthot wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:
I am very intrigued to see how the new Grey Knights turn out, as I currently only have 7x Grey Knight Models (Strike Marines, 6x SB, Nemesis Sword, 1x SB, Daemon Hammer), and I look forward to the new book. Biggest thing I am really curious about is to see how the Crowe formation turns out, as I have always been intrigued by the Purifier list, however I am also curious to see what GW will do to make the Strike Squads a more appealing choice. Will be nice to see how it turns out so that we can see more variety other then the traditional Terminator or Draigo-Wing lists.

The book is already leaked online. Crowe is worse and had a price increase and Draigo is better and had a price decrease. The same happened with strikes squads and terminators. Draigowing with 3 dreadknights is the only power list int the book at first glance.

I heard about the leak but I haven't seen the new book yet. Sad to hear that Crowe is a lot weaker and worse off now so I guess I can forget the Purifier formation then. What about the Grey Knight Strike Squads? Can you run an effective list utilizing them or as you said, the Draigowing and Dreadknights. However, according to there force organization, we can only run 2x heavies, so only 2x Dreadknights, not 3x.

 Sir Arun wrote:
About the psycannon:

Take the profile of an assault cannon for example.

It says: Heavy 4, Rending.

Not Heavy 4 Rending

Thus, if the Psycannon were to always be rending, GW would have to write it longhand: Assault 2, Rending or Heavy 4, Rending.

That is not how English is written or properly translated. Things contained within commas are a set, things after the comma are another set,

So "Assault 2 or Heavy 4, Rending" is the same thing as saying "Assault 2 and Rending or Heavy 4 and Rending"

The comma is there to separate it because it is an additional weapon quality. You can have, for example, a Heavy 4 weapon that doesn't have Rending. The comma separates the either/or statement (Assault 2 or Heavy 4) from the additional property of the weapon.

They would not write it out as you've described, that's simply not how English is written, in either casual or technical formats.

Thinking about the new formation and an all deepstriking force, do we need to deploy anything on the table in turn 1 ?

I think I remember back when necrons had just come out people were leaving a lord and bikes on the table turn 1 so they wouldn't be considered tabled before thei rreserves arrived. Does 7th edition share this stipulation, or can I leave my opponent nothing to shoot at turn 1 ?

 adamsouza wrote:
Thinking about the new formation and an all deepstriking force, do we need to deploy anything on the table in turn 1 ?

I think I remember back when necrons had just come out people were leaving a lord and bikes on the table turn 1 so they wouldn't be considered tabled before thei rreserves arrived. Does 7th edition share this stipulation, or can I leave my opponent nothing to shoot at turn 1 ?

You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Roll badly, since it's a 3+ for each unit, and you'll lose turn1.

Killermonkey wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Thinking about the new formation and an all deepstriking force, do we need to deploy anything on the table in turn 1 ?

I think I remember back when necrons had just come out people were leaving a lord and bikes on the table turn 1 so they wouldn't be considered tabled before thei rreserves arrived. Does 7th edition share this stipulation, or can I leave my opponent nothing to shoot at turn 1 ?

You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

Killermonkey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

Hmm They would be "easier" to DS then charge if they survive and having multiple units can help them from getting over killed. and most things in CC with them generally wont survive.

As well they all get to has special issue wargear so can master craft away (IIRC)

Storm bolters never really did anything for me besides the psy type


OH also getting paladins to 5 can net you 2 special weapons. so they could get a bit more heavy gunnage. (but otherwise if they dont wont get any special weapons )

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

Hmm They would be "easier" to DS then charge if they survive and having multiple units can help them from getting over killed. and most things in CC with them generally wont survive.

As well they all get to has special issue wargear so can master craft away (IIRC)

Storm bolters never really did anything for me besides the psy type


OH also getting paladins to 5 can net you 2 special weapons. so they could get a bit more heavy gunnage. (but otherwise if they dont wont get any special weapons )

Well as far as heavy weapons; For a squad of 10 barebones termies with 2 psycannons you can get 6 barebones paladins with 2 psycannons. Given that CC weapons upgrades are the same and can be discounted in pricing, are the 4 extra bodies better? It's hard to say as you can give the paladins an apothecary that increases their lifespan by 33%, unless 1/3 of the time you are being killed with a str 8 or better gun, then it would be a wash. Seems like some play testing, or serious math hammer, might need to be done to determine the best option. At least its a discussion in this codex whereas in the last codex it was an obvious slam dunk choice of going to the paladins.

They can get Special Issue Wargear and have access to more Special Weapons.
Master-crafted and Digital Weapons seems nice, but I think it's too expensive.
Perhaps a Master-crafted Daemon Hammer to nearly guarantee that Vehicle to die?

I think Paladins could be useful for the Alpha-strike.
Turn 1:
Deep Strike them.
Shoot some dangerous crap down with two Psycannons.
Turn 2:
Deep Strike the Terminators without scatter (hidden Teleport Homer on Paladins)
Shoot more stuff down with Paladins and Terminators.
Let the Paladins charge into combat with S6 Force Swords, S7 Halberds or S10 Hammers.
Or even better! Deep Strike a Nemesis Dread Knight with them and see how it doesn't scatter!

Its defently a crap shoot as the second they get hit with a melta or las cannon they will start getting owned

But its 370 for a 10man double psycannon terminator squad
and 690 for a 10man quadruple master crafted psy terminator squad with FNP

Its less than half the price and half the models of 2 terminator squads with the same amount of wounds and FNP

They will output a bit more damage and survive a bit more small arms fire, but the second they get molested by St8 they start losing favor. (captain obvious)

Killermonkey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

It would be 4x attacks when charging if the Paladin squad has the Banner that Generates an extra attack, making a small unit of 6x have 24x attacks total.Paladins are good, but I feel that +22 points for them might be a bit to high, as the issue I see with that is that there is so much in this edition from other armies that can wipe out Paladins in a single shot or hurt them easily (Plasma, Melta, lascannons, Grav, etc). For me I think more bodies would be more worth it when it comes to deciding between Terminators and Paladins, but I am willing to try both and see how each of them fare.

The biggest thing I am debating however is if I should go with Strike Squads as my troop selection. They are a solid unit for there point cost, however I do like the idea of running terminators as my Troop choice and going with Purifiers, as Soul Blaze for the entire unit seems very strong and its not too expensive either. The new Force Organization will limit the number of Dreadknights we can use, however it's pretty cool that they are a lot cheaper then they used to be.

Grav cant single shot it???

From what i can tell you can just use the BRB Force org as well so can take 3 dreads and OS at the cost of T1 DS.

 Desubot wrote:
Its defently a crap shoot as the second they get hit with a melta or las cannon they will start getting owned

But its 370 for a 10man double psycannon terminator squad
and 690 for a 10man quadruple master crafted psy terminator squad with FNP

Its less than half the price and half the models of 2 terminator squads with the same amount of wounds and FNP

They will output a bit more damage and survive a bit more small arms fire, but the second they get molested by St8 they start losing favor. (captain obvious)

Yeah that makes sense.

I just ran some basic math hammer on a squad of 10 termies with 2 psycannons (370pts) and 6 paladins with 2 psycannons (370pts) and the math comes out on the side of the termies. They average 29% and 62% more wounds caused (with failed saves) in shooting against MEQ and GEQ, respectively. In CC against the same equivalents , it is 25% and 67% more wounds caused. This is while the paladins are only 20% more survivable against small arms fire. Against big guns, it obviously is less survivable.

I would say that the 33% apothecary survivability added offsets the inherent vulnerability vs str 8 when you are comparing them so I would maybe call that option a wash. So math tells me on a pt by pt basis, the standard termies are more efficient at dealing damage than paladins are at surviving.

I suppose mileage will vary though.

Edit: Ah, I forgot about the banners you can take which will force multiple your CC attacks out for a lower cost. That'll throw off my math if you are taking larger squads of paladins as they will be more efficient in CC in that case.

Yeah, I too forgot about the banner.
Personally I think a mix of both units would be the best option.
Paladins for the Banner and FNP with a hidden Beacon and perhaps the additional Special Weapons.
Terminators for the bodies.

At this point I feel as if a ADL/Bastion with Comms Relay is almost a must.

Dont forget the Master crafted

But it's sooo expensive :(
I would only take it on the one Daemon Hammer I happen to be fielding.
Remember that you can only make one weapon Master-crafted per model, so it's either melee or ranged.

Edit: Wouldn't it be time we bring this talk to Tactics?

its 10 to take a MC PC..

If i wanted to do well in combat id take a Priest or a terminator chaplain for hatred

Edit: Well its only a few days away till the book actually comes out

I am more likely to take Terminators over Paladins even with Draigo on the table. They still can get one shot with a S8 AP2 weapon all day long so the extra wounds don't come into effect there. Not to mention Grav is still a big opposition to a heavily armored infantry unit like Paladins and Terminators where those extra points would hurt instead of help.

Honestly, I am not changing up my list much, I am just adding the Terminators back into my list. A Librarian is definitely going to be my HQ but I don't know if I am going to include a second HQ in the form of a Brother Captain/Grand Master for the simple fact that I want a full 10 man Terminator squad that will be combat squaded so that means 10 GKSS, 10 Interceptors, 10 Terminators, 2 GKDKs, and a Librarian. I need to calculate that out though so I see what I am working with when it comes to points because I will throw in a Stormraven or a Grand Master.

So is Draigo now the only model in the entire codex that can take a stormshield? :p

So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

DaPino wrote:
So is Draigo now the only model in the entire codex that can take a stormshield? :p

Well to be fair only he and Crusaders could have them last time, and Crusaders are Henchmen. Inquisition should have never been in the Codex. And for the last few months the changes to the Psychic system have made a whole bunch of Psykers a must-take.

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

This makes me happy and is basically what I was envisioning when I saw the new rules and is virtually the way I want to build mine except I will have a GKSS. I like to keep the option open to take a Stormraven. Did you have anything on the table or did you start all in reserves? Also, does it look like Incinerators are going to be the new way to equip GKSS and Interceptors?

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

Congrats.

Did you shunt the NDK's and the Interceptors in turn 1 ?

My plan going forward is to have GK and SW allied together. Principally so I can put Purifiers in a SW drop pod (this can be done now, yay FA slot Drop Pod) so they also arrive turn one and can reliably use Cleansing Flame with as much target saturation as possible.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
My plan going forward is to have GK and SW allied together. Principally so I can put Purifiers in a SW drop pod (this can be done now, yay FA slot Drop Pod) so they also arrive turn one and can reliably use Cleansing Flame with as much target saturation as possible.

Strange, but true: Can embark on each other's Transport vehicles.
Thus from an SW ally detachment, GK has access to one Drop Pod.

Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

 Smotejob wrote:
Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

Well done.

I guess the deep strikers in turn 1 scatter normally, don't they.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

Well done.

I guess the deep strikers in turn 1 scatter normally, don't they.

This is my one concern. You can put a teleport homer on the Interceptors but since Reserves comes in first before you shunt, I don't know how worth it is to do it in the first place unless you deep strike the Interceptors in first and then everyone else afterwards. Deep striking in the shunters also has it so that shunt could be used later on to take out other targets.

Also, I know you took mostly Sanctic powers on the Librarian especially with that Relic let's him basically get all the powers that Sanctic allows, do you feel it was enough on the Terminators to get the +4 Invul save or would Invisibility still work better as a defensive option? I hate to say this but I play GK for fluffy reasons but taking Telepathy and Invisibility for pure tactical reasons but I have wanted to correct this so I could get the most out of my GK since they have the best access to the Sanctic powers. I have been going back and forth but I still feel that Invisibility is a better choice. The problem? Although being ML3 gives you a 50% chance of getting Invisibility, this is almost full proof to get Sanctuary which only costs 1 Warp Charge (Do you know how many times I have Periled because of the amount of dice I throw at Invisibility to make sure it goes off) plus you can get Gate of Infinity meaning more mobility and as you pointed out all the offensive powers like Cleansing Flame and if you want to try it, the dreaded Vortex of Doom. I am wondering if because that relic, it will change things around for what powers a GK Libby takes in favor of the assurance of getting virtually access to every single Sanctic power instead of the chance to get Invisibility.

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

That is very good to hear

 Envihon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

Well done.

I guess the deep strikers in turn 1 scatter normally, don't they.

This is my one concern. You can put a teleport homer on the Interceptors but since Reserves comes in first before you shunt, I don't know how worth it is to do it in the first place unless you deep strike the Interceptors in first and then everyone else afterwards. Deep striking in the shunters also has it so that shunt could be used later on to take out other targets.

Also, I know you took mostly Sanctic powers on the Librarian especially with that Relic let's him basically get all the powers that Sanctic allows, do you feel it was enough on the Terminators to get the +4 Invul save or would Invisibility still work better as a defensive option? I hate to say this but I play GK for fluffy reasons but taking Telepathy and Invisibility for pure tactical reasons but I have wanted to correct this so I could get the most out of my GK since they have the best access to the Sanctic powers. I have been going back and forth but I still feel that Invisibility is a better choice. The problem? Although being ML3 gives you a 50% chance of getting Invisibility, this is almost full proof to get Sanctuary which only costs 1 Warp Charge (Do you know how many times I have Periled because of the amount of dice I throw at Invisibility to make sure it goes off) plus you can get Gate of Infinity meaning more mobility and as you pointed out all the offensive powers like Cleansing Flame and if you want to try it, the dreaded Vortex of Doom. I am wondering if because that relic, it will change things around for what powers a GK Libby takes in favor of the assurance of getting virtually access to every single Sanctic power instead of the chance to get Invisibility.

Where I found interceptors useful was in combo with gate of infinity. I could put my Libby anywhere my interceptors could go each turn which made placing his nova and warp rift where I wanted it really nice. Other than that it is not worth on them. Strikes may be useful here as the first teleported units to hit the board for a little cheaper and hold everything in reserve and deep strike the entire army. But as it is, this army is going to be strong up against gun line type armies. Also thinking of starting with libby on board with purifiers and warp riftng them around (since libby will have 4 to 5 rolls on sanctic based on warlord trait which I got yesterday) could take libby against most armies and sacrifice primaris on sanctic for rolls else where one you get the powers you want.

Think I'll run something like this against my tau friend this weekend, to see how it goes

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I have:
1x Librarian - 160
3x Terminator - 236 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2x Dreadknight - 240 each
Total: 1888

Are you sure the list was correct?

That is the thing I am highly wondering with that Warlord trait plus the Relic: Domina Liber Daemonica you could get a lot of rolls on Sanctic. Since Banishment is everywhere in the GK codex on most units, you don't really need the Primaris so maybe it is useful to see what you get out of Telepathy and then use the other rolls to Sanctic but I do feel that Psychic Shriek is a little too good to let go to waste but putting all in Sanctic to get most of the powers, the Cleansing Flame can replace the Shriek and you will get with more assurance Sanctuary to help the Terminators tank shots.

I am kind of torn on this and will need to play a few games with the new rules to try out the different combos but I am definitely taking the Libby as my HQ, just don't know about the Grand Master quite yet.

Kangodo wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I have:
1x Librarian - 160
3x Terminator - 236 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2x Dreadknight - 240 each
Total: 1888

Are you sure the list was correct?

I think Smot might have tabled his friend using the secret 10% more points-rule...
Absolutely the best rule in the new leaked GK codex!

I just realized, that unless I misread, The Teleport Homers work with Gate of Infinity because it uses the rules for Deepstrike. So you could 1st turn ds some units behind enemy lines with Teleport Homers, and the Librarian could bring in a 10-man Paladin squad without scatter on turn 2 near a surviving unit. That could be good, because it wouldn't trigger Interceptor because it isn't arriving from reserves.

I dont think Teleport Homers work (if its the same from other imperial books) as it requires you to "teleport" which is only specific to terminators IIRC

GoI does work with homing bacons however.

Kangodo wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I have:
1x Librarian - 160
3x Terminator - 236 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2x Dreadknight - 240 each
Total: 1888

Are you sure the list was correct?

Your math is off slightly

1x librarian = 160
3x terminator - 203 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2 x Dreadknight - 230 each

Total: 1769
If he drops the homers off of the interceptors its 1749.

Which is what I would do as they dont do much

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think Teleport Homers work (if its the same from other imperial books) as it requires you to "teleport" which is only specific to terminators IIRC

GoI does work with homing bacons however.

You're right, I just re-read it. They don't scatter "when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve". I missed that last word. I'm back to not being a fan of the Teleport Homer.

Teleport Homers only work when the unit arrives from 'Deep Strike Reserve'.
So for GK's they also work on other Deep Striking models, in the C:Blood Angels it only works on Terminators.

Locator Beacons always work on every form of Deep Strike, but are only found on Gunships.
You could ally in Blood Angels and Infiltrate Scouts with a Locator Beacon?

ForeverARookie wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think Teleport Homers work (if its the same from other imperial books) as it requires you to "teleport" which is only specific to terminators IIRC

GoI does work with homing bacons however.

You're right, I just re-read it. They don't scatter "when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve". I missed that last word. I'm back to not being a fan of the Teleport Homer.

Yeah, that definitely dampers my hopes of using it, seems like points I could place elsewhere.

Termie squads were cheaper. 195 per squad...and I lied they all had halberds. Oops. Played the game with no hammers on them. Dk In my set up was 230. the math from leaked images... So, my math had me at 1745.


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Kangodo wrote:
Teleport Homers only work when the unit arrives from 'Deep Strike Reserve'.
So for GK's they also work on other Deep Striking models, in the C:Blood Angels it only works on Terminators.

Locator Beacons always work on every form of Deep Strike, but are only found on Gunships.
You could ally in Blood Angels and Infiltrate Scouts with a Locator Beacon?

I played that wrong then, but it didn't make much of a difference on the outcome as I only goi once.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Your math is off slightly

1x librarian = 160
3x terminator - 203 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2 x Dreadknight - 230 each

Total: 1769
If he drops the homers off of the interceptors its 1749.

Which is what I would do as they dont do much

You are correct! My Dreadknights were too expensive.
I am now on 225 for them each, so you were off too

Correct on Terminators too, I accidentally had 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer ánd a Justicar.
That is why they were 33 points too high.

That still brings him to 1759, slightly above so should drop a single Teleport Homer.

 Smotejob wrote:
Termie squads were cheaper. 195 per squad...and I lied they all had halberds. Oops. Played the game with no hammers on them. Dk In my set up was 230. the math from leaked images... So, my math had me at 1745.

That explains all! But how did you get to 230?
130 + 30 + 35 + 20 + 10 = 225

Kangodo wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Your math is off slightly

1x librarian = 160
3x terminator - 203 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2 x Dreadknight - 230 each

Total: 1769
If he drops the homers off of the interceptors its 1749.

Which is what I would do as they dont do much

You are correct! My Dreadknights were too expensive.
I am now on 225 for them each, so you were off too

Correct on Terminators too, I accidentally had 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer ánd a Justicar.
That is why they were 33 points too high.

That still brings him to 1759, slightly above so should drop a single Teleport Homer.

 Smotejob wrote:
Termie squads were cheaper. 195 per squad...and I lied they all had halberds. Oops. Played the game with no hammers on them. Dk In my set up was 230. the math from leaked images... So, my math had me at 1745.

That explains all! But how did you get to 230?
130 + 30 + 35 + 20 + 10 = 225

Hmm website I'm looking at lists base DK price as 135. Is that not correct?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
SNIP

From the scans they are 130

Welp there you go, theres that 5 points

And now that list minus both homers plus a level 2 librarian is 1850, which my normal area plays.

Btw did you combat squad your interceptors or run em as 10 man squads?

I ran 2 ten man. But combat squads would be nice... especially against demons for the extra psykout grenade throw.

That and 2 extra warp dice

Combat Squads help out with shooty armies as well since they have to choose each 5 man they fire at. I can't remember ever not combat squading my Interceptors especially if I go second.

I know you used the rules but I can't wait to get my book for easy reference for making a list. I know a lot of people are going to double up on Psycannon and Incinerator for the DKs but I want to see what I can fit in. This is significantly going to change how I run DKs and the rest. I might run halberds on most of my troops now, I know the Terminators are at least going to have them. I might have to buy a new DK. The one I outfitted with both guns but the other I bought second hand and only has the Incinerator. I might have to sub in things until I get more money. Definitely going to have to sub for my troops though until I can slowly convert to Halberds.

Do you think Hammers are worth their expense? It would help at least Terminators crack armor over 12.

As a fan of the old halberd wielding GK, I am glad that it will seem that is going to the favored weapon. I think the warding staff is going to stay on the Libby, too good not to have and I think Hammers will still have their place. Swords will be where we need to cut point costs and Falchions...is anyone going to use those?

Running 1 hammer in a term squad always seems like a good idea.

Str 10 with hammer hand is nice.

Might do a mix of halberds and falchions.

I know at the very least ill be getting another box of terms and another DK, have 2 currently.

I do find it funny that two weeks ago if someone said they were going to take Falchions people looked funny at you.

Well, other armies often take Power Fists at 25 points and Thunderhammers at 30.
So taking one for 10 points is rather a good deal.
I'd use a Hammer on at least a couple of units to deal with Vehicles and big MC's with a Sv2+

Falchions aren't that bad.
Let's say you have a Terminator that charges T4-models and you can pick:
Falchion: 4 points for 33% more wounds.
Halberd: 2 points for 16% more wounds.
That is quite balanced.

But Falchions give you 50% more wounds when you are being charged.
Whereas Halberds have the benefit of being able to gain S7 if you combine it with Hammerhand.
On the other hand Halberds are 'throwing away' points if you manage to activate Hammerhand when you attack T4-models.

So my conclusion:
Halberds are good if you face a lot of T5+ or if your opponent has enough Warp Charges to DtW your 'Hammerhand'.
Otherwise I think Falchions would be better.
On PAGK I would also prefer Falchions because they always give 50% more attacks on the charge, which beats +1S.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I know at the very least ill be getting another box of terms and another DK, have 2 currently.

Awesome!
I'm personally hoping for some local rage-quitters because I would love to get my hands on a GK-army after reading this Codex ten times.

Kangodo wrote:
Well, other armies often take Power Fists at 25 points and Thunderhammers at 30.
So taking one for 10 points is rather a good deal.
I'd use a Hammer on at least a couple of units to deal with Vehicles and big MC's with a Sv2+

Falchions aren't that bad.
Let's say you have a Terminator that charges T4-models and you can pick:
Falchion: 4 points for 33% more wounds.
Halberd: 2 points for 16% more wounds.
That is quite balanced.

But Falchions give you 50% more wounds when you are being charged.
Whereas Halberds have the benefit of being able to gain S7 if you combine it with Hammerhand.
On the other hand Halberds are 'throwing away' points if you manage to activate Hammerhand when you attack T4-models.

So my conclusion:
Halberds are good if you face a lot of T5+ or if your opponent has enough Warp Charges to DtW your 'Hammerhand'.
Otherwise I think Falchions would be better.
On PAGK I would also prefer Falchions because they always give 50% more attacks on the charge, which beats +1S.

I tend to mix and match a little
Examples: {This more of a WYSIWYG issue and me being to lazy to rebuild.]
My Purifiers is the Justicar has Falchions, 2 Halberds and one Hammer to go with my 2 Incinerators
>This five my Justicar a lot of Attacks and a Good number of S5/S7 Attacks.
My Interceptors are the opposite, Justicar with Halberd and 2x Paired Falchions and one Hammer to go with my Incinerator.
>This one five my Justicar the higher strength attacks and the squad a greater number of Attacks.

That is true, mixing and matching is always a good idea.

You don't want to stack a lot of Falchions and then have your Hammerhand-fail as you are about to charge into T5-models.
Changing that 5+ to Wound into a 4+ with a chance for 2+ is just great.

I'm hoping that the Necron-Codex makes Lychguard good, that means you might see a lot of T5 models
And I have to say that my Scarabs are terrified of those S4+2 weapons!

I'm banking on other GK players cashing out. So far I've picked up 10 Terminators for half price and a Storm Raven (still in sprue) for $50. I may convert some of my PAGK into Brotherhood Champions to tack onto other units for challenges (it's hard to beat a rerollable 2+,4++ save on a model with WS8, S6, AP3)


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Or if I add him to a unit with a Ministorum Priest, the entire unit can re-roll saves, and he can attack at AP2 every turn.

And if the unit they are attached to is a Paladin squad with an Apothecary, they all get a 5+ FNP in addition to the re-rollable saves.

ForeverARookie wrote:
I'm banking on other GK players cashing out. So far I've picked up 10 Terminators for half price and a Storm Raven (still in sprue) for $50. I may convert some of my PAGK into Brotherhood Champions to tack onto other units for challenges (it's hard to beat a rerollable 2+,4++ save on a model with WS8, S6, AP3)

Jesus H. Christ you sure know how to land a deal, buddy.

Unfortunately I'm only one of 2 local GK players, so no deals for me from people rage quitting

ForeverARookie wrote:
I'm banking on other GK players cashing out. So far I've picked up 10 Terminators for half price and a Storm Raven (still in sprue) for $50. I may convert some of my PAGK into Brotherhood Champions to tack onto other units for challenges (it's hard to beat a rerollable 2+,4++ save on a model with WS8, S6, AP3)

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Or if I add him to a unit with a Ministorum Priest, the entire unit can re-roll saves, and he can attack at AP2 every turn.

And if the unit they are attached to is a Paladin squad with an Apothecary, they all get a 5+ FNP in addition to the re-rollable saves.

You could always try for Sanctuary to get a rerollable 3++

Hmm, just noticed that Dreadknights are now Characters.
Many armies rely on Characters to get through 2+ armour, so you could challenge them and either kill them before they hit, or have them cower behind the unit.
Any remaining wounds are spilled over to the unit anyway.

WS8 is only for Crowe, but the loss of Force, MasterCrafted and Daemonbane is probably worth the extra bonuses.
Especially if you can give HoW to your Paladins.