I am doing a speech on why wargamers are stereotypically classed as nerds and is that stigma true. any advice/ arguments for me to use?? This is being used in my english Qualification so i will need good strong arguments both for and against the wargamer 'nerds' and should they be classed as such.
Myself, I am an avid D&D, Wh40K, LoTR SBG and Dropzone Commander player
2) How are you defining "Nerd" (is it any different from "Geek").
3) Do you have any other speech ideas? I cannot think of any reason not to call wargamers "Nerds" (Unless they are actually "Geeks"), and you said you needed both sides.
Plenty of wargames used by various militaries, both for training and even mission rehearsals. Heck, FT Hood used to have a 'SimCenter' with a HUGE 3d terrain board of NTC which was used with micro-armor for training purposes. (They also had other terrain sets available).
It sounds like you want us to do your homework for you.
It also sounds like the subject you've picked is asking us to explain to you why we're dorks.
And you have decided that's a social stigma.
WolfLordThunderfist wrote:
Any advice / arguments for me to use??
My advice - abandon your argument. Wargamers are not stereotypically classed as nerds, any more than Brits are stereotypically cast as Dr. Who fanatics. Wargamers cover all colors, professions, races, and creeds.
Neckbeards are stereotypically classed as nerds.
Pimple-faced acne kids are stereotypically classes as nerds.
Teenage guys with long ponytails.
Kids wearing braces and coke-bottle glasses.
Wargaming has zilch to do with it. If you want something useful for your english qualification, try this:
Why social-profiling associates certain physical appearances to a "nerd-pool," and is that profiling accurate?
-People associate clean-cut, physically fit people with athletes, not nerds.
-People associate neckbeards with nerds, not athletes.
-People associate bifocal wearing, receding hairline, trenchcoat-donned middle age men with pedophiles.
Stereotypes are how the human brain categorizes and stores interactions, visual input, and memories. A human being cannot stop stereotyping, or profiling. Our brains are designed to do so to make logical sense of the world around us.
-A tall, muscular, clean-cut guy wearing a varsity football jacket says, "I play with little plastic man barbies." The reaction of people will be to chuckle because they don't believe him, and think he's being funny.
-A short, skinny, pale kid with a ponytail says, "I play football." The reaction of people will be to chuckle because they don't believe him, and think he's being funny.
Physical and racial stereotypes are your subject matter. You can argue that the way people stereotype is wrong, and that they should be more cognizant of the world around them, but wargaming has zilch to do with it.
"Nerd (adjective: nerdy) is a descriptive term, often used pejoratively, indicating that a person is overly intellectual, obsessive, or socially impaired. They may spend inordinate amounts of time on unpopular, obscure, or non-mainstream activities, which are generally either highly technical or relating to topics of fiction or fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities.[1][2][3] Additionally, many nerds are described as being shy, quirky, and unattractive,[4] and may have difficulty participating in, or even following, sports. Though originally derogatory, "Nerd" is a stereotypical term, but as with other pejoratives, it has been reclaimed and redefined by some as a term of pride and group identity."
Guess we follow the checklist:
Overly intellectual: Wargames tend to be strategy based so some thought is needed, so sure, it works.
Obsessive: The arguments in the forums, painting all those miniatures... yep the description works.
Socially impaired: Gaming does have a certain stigma to it which can cause some social impairment in itself... sure a half mark here.
Inordinate time on unpopular, obscure, or non-mainstream...: OUCH, that whole sentence is a wee bit too close to home. Full marks and bonus points.
Shy, quirky and unattractive...: Thank goodness no comment on smell... oops, "unattractive". Middling here, many groups can have some of these traits.
OP, good luck with getting some "factual" data on this.
A very carefully prepared questionnaire is the only way to get this topic the least bit interesting on an academic level.
The military gamers who do war games on a professional level may have a bone to pick with this.
Yep, time I will not get back.
That one line though was worth finding and trying to forget, truth can be painful.
I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
Does the term "nerd" even hold any value anymore? Considering modern media is almost entirely dominated by what was once considered nerdy, it's all pretty common place these days.
You could argue that there are still shows like Big Bang Theory that go out of their way to ridicule the 'nerd' subset, but really, that show tends to poke more fun at autistic people than anything else (for the record, it's a horrible show, which is a shame, since Jim Parsons is such a fantastic actor).
Those who lack in social skills will always be picked and poked at, but that's because of a lack of social skills, regardless of interests.
Toofast wrote: I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
Thing is, for every one of you, there is 1000's of us who are your opposites. :p
It comes down to stereo types, and it's mostly true. Yes there is the exceptions. We may not be Revenge of the Nerds, type anymore but we are still nerds and geeks.
Toofast wrote: I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
I actually got into 40k because of one of my buddies who was in the army. He got into 40k during his deployment into Iraq, and most of his buddies overseas played to pass the time. A lot of my club doesn't fit the stereotypical nerd archetype. Plus, being nerdy is in nowadays.
I think it's all in how you handle yourself. If you look put together (not even fit, but groomed and look like you've showered in the last day or so) and aren't socially inept, no one really cares that you're into playing plastic dudesmen. Every woman I've ever been with has been AT WORST indifferent, and at best, interested haha. If you're a "dweller," it's not the wargaming that's hurting people's perception of you.
Toofast wrote: They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side".
What Davor said. I'll bet she didn't think it was as hot as being 6', muscular, and athletic.
I think 'nerd' has at least begun to be appropriated by the nerdy, and to some extent trendsetters*. Getting back to Davor's post again, we might've moved on since Revenge of the Nerds, but I think the speech at the end is still a good 'un.
*Though I might be just a wee bit more miffed by that than by the IMO dying stigmata of 'nerd'. If you want to be geek chic, go deeper than a superficial look, get a few of the hobbies and weird looks too.
I'm in my mid thirties, lean, well built, run half marathons for fun and am married to a beautiful woman, have an amazing job which earns me well north of $100k per year in US terms and have a life which I love, and which toy soldiers play an important part of.
Strangely most of my gaming club are in a similar position, while the 'cool' kids at school who tormented us mercilessly about being nerds are, judging by facebook at least, stuck in dead end jobs with no escape in site.
If this is what being a nerd means, then hey I'm down with that!
I would not call my self a nerd either. Did 10 years in the US army Airborne Infantry. Work at a prison as a guard, not the job I would consider a nerd doing. I will admit that I do enjoy a nerd hobby but would never consider myself as a typical nerd.
For those who are stuck or were raised in the 80's. Anyone see the movies Revenge of the Nerds. That is what a lot of people think of, when they think "nerd" in the 80's.
Now Nerds are Big Bang Theory. Now here is a difference. They are nerds, because they are smart. If you are like them but don't have the "smarts" you are a geek then. Sadly in Nerdom there was classifications back then, and even Nerds have their own social cliq you have to adapt to, in order to be accepted back then. Now I believe it has changed somewhat, like how all people's opinions change.
Sadly I wasn't good looking enough to hang with the Jocks, to social awkward to hang with the cool kids, not smart enough to be with the Nerds, so what is left? Geek. :(
Before only Nerds played with computers. Now playing with a computer or console is socially acceptable now. In the 80's it wasn't. Same thing is going on now with "Wargaming", but really playing with toy soldiers. Before it was Dungeons and Dragons. Only Nerds and Geeks played with them. In time, people saw how computers helped in every day life. People saw how you can have fun on consoles, because that was like going to the Arcade and not spending quarters all the time. (anyone here remember the Arcades? LOL Anyone not know what an Arcade is?) So people saw how playing games on consoles was having fun, and then started to realize that the gaming experience can be better on the computers. So now computer/console gaming is socially acceptable now.
So now the "wargaming" is in the "80's" where computer/console gaming was back then.
Will it catch on? No I don't think so. Why? Because if GW is suppose to be the biggest market share and the games they are making IS NOT FUN for most people Wargaming will never take off.
As a side note, this is why I think GW is happy where only having a select 2000-5000 customers world wide. They "niche market" is to Geeks and Nerds who they know will keep buying their product. They don't even try to expand on the untapped market like say Bethesda has done with The Elder Scrolls. Before that game was just for Geeks and Nerds who played on PC's first then on Consoles. Bethesda (or was it Zenimax the owners of Bethesda?) wanted to make more money. So they changed how their game was in Oblivion and then changed it again in Skyrim to get more of a market share and new customers. It was successful. Yes there were complaints but when you are selling over 10 million, 20 million units, you are doing something correct.
GW is not even attempting this. They are quite content selling their products to Geek and Nerds. They don't even do research on what people want because they know their 5000 or so customers will always be there. Yes I said 5000. Yes I know people are leaving in droves, the sales are not there. But that was when GW had 25 000 customers (give or take) but no matter how many leave, GW is still making a profit and is perfectly content where they are. Why? Because we are Geeks and Nerds and love our "plastic crack". GW doesn't think any other way. Their mind set is stuck in the 80's it seems and they think the Geeks and Nerds of the 80's are still the same in the 00's.
Have you not seen the many, many, many console and PC games released under the Warhammer / Warhammer 40K license? GW has been trying to reach a wider market for quite some time.
If the OP wants to continue with his original line of thinking, a British documentary series, Myth Hunters, flat out said that Himmler would have been a war-gaming nerd. I believe it was in episode 7, Himmler and the Holy Grail. It was released in 2012.
BairdEC wrote: If the OP wants to continue with his original line of thinking, a British documentary series, Myth Hunters, flat out said that Himmler would have been a war-gaming nerd. I believe it was in episode 7, Himmler and the Holy Grail. It was released in 2012.
How's that for a negative portrayal?
Not only that, but it doesn't even make sense...it's not as if wargames weren't contemporaneous with the Nazis.
That said, I do find it creepy when people want to paint their IG to look like the SS, or whatever...but it's not as if I'd use them to judge the whole community.
Azazelx wrote: 40-50% of wargamers active or retired military? I'd be incredibly dubious about numbers like that.
Would have to go back to read the article - but it was an article largely about GW, and largely about the US market...where 40-50% is active/prior service military. Honestly, sounds about right. Probably 95% of those who I have played with were (granted, a good bit of that time was while I was active myself). Lots of people get into gaming while overseas - and it is encouraged for cadet officers and still used in PME like the War College (not 40K type wargames - but those with a greater level of tactical or strategic depth).
To the core question...
Are wargamers stereotyped as Nerds? Yes. Are a lot of wargamers Nerds? Yes - most stereotypes have some basis in reality. Are all wargamers Nerds? No. As a subject for an academic work - probably not much meat in it. Though you could make a case for the stereotype angle and work it out on the origins of gaming as well as case studies which break the mold.
There seems to be a distinct position that stereotypes are a bad thing. There is a strong argument that stereotypes are a good thing (the human race would not have survived long as we had were it not for stereotyping things with big teeth as dangerous for example). That can be the meat of a solid paper/speech/debate topic (falling on either side of the coin I guess...).
As a side note, this is why I think GW is happy where only having a select 2000-5000 customers world wide.
Off by a factor of...many. Haven't calculated it recently - but it was in the 100,000 active customer range a few years back. Now they are likely down in the 90,000 active customer range.
Tabletop wargaming has a bad reputation because you shove plastic miniatures around. And because of...a certain group of people that would stand out in any crowd.
I am a wargamer but I would never, ever tell anyone I work with unless those people are very close to me. It would weaken my position if the rumor of me playing with little plastic soldiers was to go around.
From my experience, most people don't know enough about wargaming or those who engage in it to stereotype gamers as anything. The 'gamers are nerds' tag, along with the 'wargaming is a bit weird' tag tend to be applied far more by gamers than by anyone else.
And outside of high school, who is going around stereotyping people based on their hobbies in the first place?
Sigvatr wrote: Tabletop wargaming has a bad reputation because you shove plastic miniatures around. And because of...a certain group of people that would stand out in any crowd.
I am a wargamer but I would never, ever tell anyone I work with unless those people are very close to me. It would weaken my position if the rumor of me playing with little plastic soldiers was to go around.
I doubt that very seriously.
I make no effort to hide the fact that I play tabletop games and paint models from the people I work with. Hell, I've brought models in to work to show people on more than one occasion. How does a hobby "weaken" your position at work? I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm a construction worker and I've run multimillion dollar jobs and had more than two dozen men working for me and never once felt the need to hide anything "nerdy" that I enjoy.
The fact that I paint toy soldiers and have Lord of the Rings and Star Wars tattoos doesn't make me less capable to do my job.
Sigvatr wrote: Tabletop wargaming has a bad reputation because you shove plastic miniatures around. And because of...a certain group of people that would stand out in any crowd.
I am a wargamer but I would never, ever tell anyone I work with unless those people are very close to me. It would weaken my position if the rumor of me playing with little plastic soldiers was to go around.
I doubt that very seriously. .
Likewise. I've never hidden my gaming from anyone. A few people haven't understood what it was about. A few haven't understood why it would be a fun thing to do. By and large, though, people appreciate the artistic side of it if nothing else.
I've encountered far more negative stigma about gaming from insecure gamers than from everyone else.
In my opinion everyone posting here is a nerd, thats how I see it !!
Being "fit" or ex military does not exclude you either I am afraid But then again, "nerd" does not have the stigma it once has either in my opinion.
A lot of what was once classed as nerdy stuff and was once upon a time, only found in basements, such as video games, computers, sci-fi and fantasy, are now mainstream big money earners.
Swan-of-War wrote: Have you not seen the many, many, many console and PC games released under the Warhammer / Warhammer 40K license? GW has been trying to reach a wider market for quite some time.
I don't believe they are. I believe this is just extra income for GW for giving out licences to other people. Also GW is not in the video game market. They are in the miniature or publishing market. GW is not making the video games themselves. You can't rely on other people to do your work for you. GW needs to make a GOOD, FUN game people will understand and want to play. Right now only Nerds and Geeks want to play it.
I guess GW is incapable of making a good fun game for the common gamer who wants to play. Then again, that would take advertising, and research into seeing what "the common" gamer wants. Bethesda seems to have done it and hit a Grand Slam 2 times now. I guess GW doesn't want to make $10 000 000 000. Is that how much Bethesda or Zenimax actually made? DAMN. See what a little bit of research will do for you.
5000 customers? Is that seriously your estimate? They did £123.5 million (about $212M in USD) in revenue for the last financial year. If they had 5000 customers that means each customer spent $42,500 on games workshop products in one year. Even at 100,000 customers that would be an average of over $2,000 per customer in one year. I believe the number of customers is closer to the 250,000 mark just based on revenue and what I see the average players around here spending.
Insaniak seems to have it right. Most of the insecurity around wargaming appears to be perpetrated by wargamers themselves.
Whenever I've talked about it to non-gamers, I don't think I've ever had a hostile or mocking reaction. Most people seem to at least want to talk about it a bit, which is just normal when having a polite conversation and someone's hobby comes up. And quite a few want to know more about it, stuff like asking how you have the patience to paint the models, etc.
2) How are you defining "Nerd" (is it any different from "Geek").
Not really one and the same
It's an interesting question, if you looked at me I don't think you would call me a nerd. I'm 6ft extremely fit and fight (boxing) for a living. I guess it comes down to your point of view, Vin Diesel has his favourite Vampire character tattooed on his leg and is a major RP player.
Just because I play war games doesn't make me your typical nerd/geek
I have to say... while 'being an adult' means you really don't have to worry if people think you are a nerd or not, the most 'mainstream' connection people seem to make when they find out I paint miniatures is to Steve Carell in the 40-year old virgin.
While Playing D&D has all sorts of culture exposure, Miniature painting is often seen as something different and for some reason, everyone seems to associate that with that movie.
I have yet to find someone who didn't think it was cool, but being an adult really eliminates the whole 'Lord of the Flies' mentality kids are put in, and the drive to raise your status in a closed system above your peers by any means necessary.
From my experience, most people don't know enough about wargaming or those who engage in it to stereotype gamers as anything. The 'gamers are nerds' tag, along with the 'wargaming is a bit weird' tag tend to be applied far more by gamers than by anyone else.
Largely - because of its fringe nature. Pop culture helps as well - while most people don't have direct exposure to wargames, movies like the 40 Year Old Virgin tie it to nerds. Geeks & Sundry (one of the less fringe, fringe sites) hooks wargames and RPGs to nerds...or rather geeks - which for many people are interchangeable. The various video series which are linked to it (Will Wheaton's Tabletop for example) carry that same thing out to a broader audience.
The stores that sell wargames also help a good bit. They are not tobacconists with lots of wood and leather, or hipster joints with white and chrome - they tend to be generalist stores which have a focus on a variety of nerdy past times (RPGs, comics, boutique board games, model stores...).
insaniak wrote: And outside of high school, who is going around stereotyping people based on their hobbies in the first place?
People in business, people in marketing, people in legal fields, politicians, doctors, insurance companies...
When I used to meet with clients, I had to make certain adjustments based off from what I knew about them. That might be a bass hanging on a wall of their office, a picture of their classic car or a souvenir from a vacation. Marketing types have to stereotype all the time, they use it for ad buys, language and imagery. Lawyers and other legal pros use stereotypes to stack jury boxes, work over the witnesses and generally get an idea of a person. Politicians...well, they change their face more often than I change my socks - campaign footage shows them doing ridiculous things all the time in order to fit in with the locals. Doctors make snap judgements all the time regarding patients and what background they know about them (including hobbies). I pay a higher insurance rate because of my hobbies as well (scuba and mountain climbing).
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Toofast wrote: 5000 customers? Is that seriously your estimate? They did £123.5 million (about $212M in USD) in revenue for the last financial year. If they had 5000 customers that means each customer spent $42,500 on games workshop products in one year. Even at 100,000 customers that would be an average of over $2,000 per customer in one year. I believe the number of customers is closer to the 250,000 mark just based on revenue and what I see the average players around here spending.
Correct - forgot to say...US market. Not enough information available really to get into Europe and the rest of the world (which is largely Australia...).
I suppose, as Sean O'Brien is saying in a post above, anything that is not 'mainstream' or can be considered 'fringe' is more likely to be viewed with suspicion by people that don't understand what it's about. And from this, prejudice begins.
I will say though that at a certain age you stop caring what people think about you
Interestingly, in the mid to late 80's I think there was a lot more stigma about computer games - now that they have become more mainstream, there probably isn't a household with kids in the developed world that doesn't have a gaming machine in some form or another, that seems to have largely disappeared (although.. I'm not a kid any more, maybe it is still there to an extent!)
I graduated from high school in the mid to late 80s. Everyone had an Atari and the Cool Kids had nintendo NES and the rich cool kids had a sega genesis.
CptJake wrote: 5K is still way too low, even if you mean US only.
That was someone elses number...
Off by a factor of...many. Haven't calculated it recently - but it was in the 100,000 active customer range a few years back. Now they are likely down in the 90,000 active customer range.
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Pacific wrote: I suppose, as Sean O'Brien is saying in a post above, anything that is not 'mainstream' or can be considered 'fringe' is more likely to be viewed with suspicion by people that don't understand what it's about. And from this, prejudice begins.
I will say though that at a certain age you stop caring what people think about you
For the most part. Though I don't know if I would consider it prejudice anymore than people have a specific view of me when I go out for a track day, take my boat out, go golfing or whatever else.
We all have things in our mind that are connected to different activities, and when something that is more obscure comes along - our brains work to compartmentalize that with things we know. Wargaming, being more obscure than something like golfing - is more likely to be linked to things like the places they are purchased in or the few points of contact they may have had with them (40 Year Old Virgin movie). Golf will also have a lot of preconceived ideas connected to it - though because it is more wide spread, those ideas will be more varied based on the persons contact with the activity (whether it is something their Grandpa does, something they do or something their brother does...).
Granted, that is all well and good - nothing wrong with that, any more than the preconceived idea that I can't dance...or jump... At this point in my life, I have no problem with people doing that...any more so than I would be less willing to take financial advice from someone with a neck tattoo or get dental work from someone with pierced eyebrows. Those are part of the stereotypes I have developed over the years.
insaniak wrote: And outside of high school, who is going around stereotyping people based on their hobbies in the first place?
People in business, people in marketing, people in legal fields, politicians, doctors, insurance companies...
When I used to meet with clients, I had to make certain adjustments based off from what I knew about them. That might be a bass hanging on a wall of their office, a picture of their classic car or a souvenir from a vacation. Marketing types have to stereotype all the time, they use it for ad buys, language and imagery. Lawyers and other legal pros use stereotypes to stack jury boxes, work over the witnesses and generally get an idea of a person. Politicians...well, they change their face more often than I change my socks - campaign footage shows them doing ridiculous things all the time in order to fit in with the locals. Doctors make snap judgements all the time regarding patients and what background they know about them (including hobbies). I pay a higher insurance rate because of my hobbies as well (scuba and mountain climbing).
Those are very specific examples of how relative strangers perceive each other, and no one is claiming that stereotyping doesn't happen.
I believe what Insaniak and myself are talking about is interpersonal relationships with peers in a work setting, not political stump speeches and insurance rates.
insaniak wrote: And outside of high school, who is going around stereotyping people based on their hobbies in the first place?
People in business, people in marketing, people in legal fields, politicians, doctors, insurance companies...
When I used to meet with clients, I had to make certain adjustments based off from what I knew about them. That might be a bass hanging on a wall of their office, a picture of their classic car or a souvenir from a vacation. Marketing types have to stereotype all the time, they use it for ad buys, language and imagery. Lawyers and other legal pros use stereotypes to stack jury boxes, work over the witnesses and generally get an idea of a person. Politicians...well, they change their face more often than I change my socks - campaign footage shows them doing ridiculous things all the time in order to fit in with the locals. Doctors make snap judgements all the time regarding patients and what background they know about them (including hobbies). I pay a higher insurance rate because of my hobbies as well (scuba and mountain climbing).
Those are very specific examples of how relative strangers perceive each other, and no one is claiming that stereotyping doesn't happen.
I believe what Insaniak and myself are talking about is interpersonal relationships with peers in a work setting, not political stump speeches and insurance rates.
You have mentioned coworkers (in response to another about his job) - but by and large stereotypes are applied to strangers, not people we deal with day in and day out. We have enough information to make an informed decision on those people.
Insaniak has been very general in his terminology (anyone...who is stereotyping...). Those general terms, and the nature of the question refer to broad generalizations as opposed to how a specific individual might react to another specific individual.
Here is the thing, dont care at all and enjoy your hobby. Several times I have told my co-workers what I do? Their response "That sounds so cool" even when I said I did D&D.
It may be that im younger(22) and my generation has less of a stigma.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: How does a hobby "weaken" your position at work? I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm a construction worker and I've run multimillion dollar jobs and had more than two dozen men working for me and never once felt the need to hide anything "nerdy" that I enjoy.
I'm working very high up in a huge company. I just can't afford any slanter going on about me. I don't want to wake any sleeping dogs. I am open about my "strong" hobbies with a positive connotation, such as running and taking part in marathons all over the world. It's highly acceptable and generally seen as admirable in our society and thus profitable for anyone who's going strong in such a hobby. Having b fit body is a very nice side-product and further adds to your professionalism - it's unacceptable to not be fit. Lead by example.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: How does a hobby "weaken" your position at work? I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm a construction worker and I've run multimillion dollar jobs and had more than two dozen men working for me and never once felt the need to hide anything "nerdy" that I enjoy.
I'm working very high up in a huge company. I just can't afford any slanter going on about me. I don't want to wake any sleeping dogs. I am open about my "strong" hobbies with a positive connotation, such as running and taking part in marathons all over the world. It's highly acceptable and generally seen as admirable in our society and thus profitable for anyone who's going strong in such a hobby. Having b fit body is a very nice side-product and further adds to your professionalism - it's unacceptable to not be fit. Lead by example.
Except there is nothing negative about having a creative hobby, nor is it a case of failing to lead by example. There also isn't a negative connotation about war gaming.
Sorry mate, I don't believe people knowing about a hobby like ours would hinder you in your professional life.
Really, I feel sorry for you since you feel the need to hide such a benign thing about yourself. Sounds like a miserable way to live.
It isn't a miserable way to live - it is simply making informed decisions based off from observations.
Corporate culture can be very cut throat - a lot of my past customers were the same way...both regarding gaming and other parts of their life. When they would visit my home office (as opposed to my regular office) - they would often become more open about less "masculine" hobbies. Even female gamers who work in large corporations are under pressure (both from within and without) to avoid certain hobbies...or at least not make them commonly known.
Granted, since I don't really feel the need to share details of my life with people I work with...it has never really been an issue to me. What I do away from work, is one thing. What I did at work was something completely different. Being able to separate the two is actually a perfectly healthy way to live.
Sorry mate, I don't believe people knowing about a hobby like ours would hinder you in your professional life.
Really, I feel sorry for you since you feel the need to hide such a benign thing about yourself. Sounds like a miserable way to live.
There is no need to feel sorry for me. It's a choice I made and I chose to live by it. War gaming is a rather small part of my life and I gladly choose not being able to openly talk about it when the wage I receive ensures a life free of any financial worries for me, my wife and our daughter (and future children) along with being able to spend a lot of quality time with our little family. I am not allowed to go into further detail in regards to my occupation, but let's just say that some branches require absolute and flawless professionalism when dealing with international partners all over the planet and most people in said branch being highly conservative and stiff with little to no tolerance for stepping out of the line.
A) If it is for a qualification, I assume some fairly important design, you need to be able to gather your thoughts better than by asking a board to gather for you. Otherwise, you picked a topic you don't have the ability to deliver on. Regardless, a forum is not a valid information source for a formal assignment unless it's for a sociology, communication, or perhaps psychology class.
B) It is simply a matter of framing, and then pointing out counter examples.
Toofast wrote: 5000 customers? Is that seriously your estimate? They did £123.5 million (about $212M in USD) in revenue for the last financial year. If they had 5000 customers that means each customer spent $42,500 on games workshop products in one year. Even at 100,000 customers that would be an average of over $2,000 per customer in one year. I believe the number of customers is closer to the 250,000 mark just based on revenue and what I see the average players around here spending.
I just said that is why would GW make products that only limit to 2000 customers? Even some minis are limited to $1000 customers? What ever happened to GW excuse that they have to pay for molds? So if GW only makes limited edition for 1000-2000 customers, so was going off that. Again, GW doest things that never makes sense to me. If you have a quarter of a million cutovers why are you ignoring the rest of the 248 000 customers then?
Toofast wrote: I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
Hey bro, Im the midwest version of you. I dated a girl who, for whatever reason, got turned on too to the nerd thing. It got to where I told I was going to the game store to Dork out and it was our little laugh. I get what you mean though. our hobby doesn't make any of us 'nerds'.
They may not be Nerds, but they are GEEKS then. Anyone who plays with plastic toy soldier is at least Geek minimum. If you say you are not, then you are in denial. While a lot of us may look like geeks, some nerds and some my even look like jocks, but EVERYONE has a inner geek in them and it comes out when it comes to our hobby.
I've stopped caring about what people think of my wargaming hobby. It's more fun than just getting wasted every week (don't mind occasional drink sesh myself) or just loafing in front of the tv every night.
It's nerdy in the sense that it takes up a lot of your time, it sometimes deals with science fiction or fantasy, and most of the rulesets are extremely complex.
The Cones of Dunshire, a fake game in Parks and Recreation that's kind of a pastiche of every "nerd" game ever made, has what looks to be Warhammer Fantasy models.
I hide the fact that I play Dungeons and Dragons from most people older than me because the mainstream either views it as dangerous (one person asked if I ever cut myself while playing) or pathetic, or simply confuse it with something like World of Warcraft (which I myself hypocritically view as both dangerous and pathetic.)
Wargaming is a bit different though in that it seems more constructive. Every experience I've had in sharing the hobby with "outsiders" has been positive. I even found out that my brother in law used to play Chaos, and a female friend has a large Sisters of Battle army sitting around somewhere.
I think it's considered nerdy because it isn't necessarily the norm for a lot of people. I don't hide my hobby from my friends and often have tried to get them involved with it, but it's not football and doesn't involve throwing pointy things at a numbered circle. But they respect me for doing something I enjoy and more often than not I'm the one taking the mick out of myself for doing it.
My misses says I am a nerd because I play with toy men. I say she is a nerd because she likes embroidery. I guess we all have something that makes us a nerd.
my opinion about this: I sport alot, have a very good job, own a car and a house, have a girlfriend and so on. One of my favourite hobby's is warhammer, but it's just a hobby for me.
For others, it's more like a lifestyle, and that's where the 'nerd' comes in i think. If i look at our local store,
95% are male (offcourse) and this contributes nerd factor
a big group of these guys/kids spend most of their free time and most of their money in the store, as is their right, but it's also considered nerdy.
and something i've noticed myself: some are normal dudes who just play WH as hobby, they talk to girls,...
but others crawl away in between the pages of their rulebook as soon as a girl enters the shop, they don't speak to girls, only to stare at them and gossip between the dudes about here.
So imo there are alot of WH players you can easily call nerds, but not all, there are cool dudes too
The definition for nerd seems to keep evolving.
I had covered the "common" definition of a nerd earlier, this is what I think it means to be a nerd:
"A person that takes great pride in obsessively involving themselves in esoteric facts of some topic or hobby at the expense of other life experiences."
I feel this allows it to be inclusive to sports fanatics (can rattle-off stats on all players of a team) to people who like their guns: an obsession bordering on unhealthy.
So many things are mainstream now, I would be hesitant to label many people on this board as "nerds" since their grasp of "life balance" runs contrary to the nerd stereotype.
So many people (myself included) would derive joy in knowing some obscure fact about the topic of interest no-one else knew, a means of showing off I guess.
Any holes in this definition or refinements to it?
Talizvar wrote: The definition for nerd seems to keep evolving.
I had covered the "common" definition of a nerd earlier, this is what I think it means to be a nerd:
"A person that takes great pride in obsessively involving themselves in esoteric facts of some topic or hobby at the expense of other life experiences."
I feel this allows it to be inclusive to sports fanatics (can rattle-off stats on all players of a team) to people who like their guns: an obsession bordering on unhealthy.
So many things are mainstream now, I would be hesitant to label many people on this board as "nerds" since their grasp of "life balance" runs contrary to the nerd stereotype.
So many people (myself included) would derive joy in knowing some obscure fact about the topic of interest no-one else knew, a means of showing off I guess.
Any holes in this definition or refinements to it?
Whichever way you define it, you are going to generalise to a major extent so you are both right and wrong
Frankly i do not give a dam what people think about it, sure folks may poke fun at the cost, but after all they cannot comment, as they spend money on things that I don't understand either. Moreover many myths are peddled about the wider community when in my expereince it only applies to a small section of it, and tars us all with the same brush. Sure GW stores are where we get the bad wrap, but most of the gamers i know are very decent people.
Some people are just blind to what the hobby gives those who partake, not to mention its more often than not it makes us the "unique" person in a room etc, and despite my best efforts to hide things being a wargamer always comes to bite me on the bum when i'm least expecting it
Many people just think its strange or unusual, to the layperson a totally vaild viewpoint.
However i'm sure we also could brand the model railway crowd as nerds yet they never seem to have the "image" problems wargamers have: ingnorance isn't bliss
Sigvatr wrote: I don't quite see the need for any sort of definition. Why would I use the word "nerd" to begin with?
Because the human animal likes to categorize?
You would use the word "nerd" if someone fits the definition and you do not want to give a long descriptor = shorthand, a macro language.
I am a Canadian, white, male, heterosexual, liberal, roman catholic... you get the drift.
Different levels of group belonging with all the prejudices that entails.
Thinking harder now on the OP topic: wargaming and being a nerd is not mutually exclusive.
You can enjoy and play a tabletop game but it does not mean you are an Otaku.
As pointed out, a fair number of military personnel enjoy tabletop wargaming which has been a part of their history for centuries, they tend not to fit the "nerd" stereotype.
Sigvatr wrote: I don't quite see the need for any sort of definition. Why would I use the word "nerd" to begin with?
Because the human animal likes to categorize?
You would use the word "nerd" if someone fits the definition and you do not want to give a long descriptor = shorthand, a macro language.
Just say that someone is a "fan" of something. Add adjectives to factorize. "Big", "remarkable". You get my point. "Fan" has a positive connotation, "nerd" has a negative connotation. So why would you use the latter?
Sigvatr wrote: I don't quite see the need for any sort of definition. Why would I use the word "nerd" to begin with?
Because the human animal likes to categorize?
You would use the word "nerd" if someone fits the definition and you do not want to give a long descriptor = shorthand, a macro language.
Just say that someone is a "fan" of something. Add adjectives to factorize. "Big", "remarkable". You get my point. "Fan" has a positive connotation, "nerd" has a negative connotation. So why would you use the latter?
Because "fan" and "nerd" are not equal, I would say it infers a certain degree of cost to their extreme liking of a given topic.
They become a bit odd socially due to that extreme focus (other topics and social graces are secondary if not cursory to that individual).
History has many accounts of highly intelligent and focused individuals forgetting "simple" things when living in their head.
It has a similar feel to the label "idiot-savant" but more self-inflicted.
Though "geek" seems to have replaced the traditional meaning of "nerd" where nerd still has the connotation of being smart while geek is more the focus aspect.
WolfLordThunderfist wrote: I am doing a speech on why wargamers are stereotypically classed as nerds and is that stigma true. any advice/ arguments for me to use?? This is being used in my english Qualification so i will need good strong arguments both for and against the wargamer 'nerds' and should they be classed as such.
Myself, I am an avid D&D, Wh40K, LoTR SBG and Dropzone Commander player
Toofast wrote: I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
First of all, I want to meet you - you sound like my dream man.
Secondly, 'extremely attractive women that play 40k'.. you had me until that moment I don't think I've met one in 25 years of wargaming (maybe it's my location?) although I have met about 5000 'overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills' in that time.
Well I've gotten a few of my exes into 40k back when we were dating. They were all attractive so I count that. Outside of myself or friends getting hot girls to play, I haven't seen an attractive female wargamer. Does that still count?
But then some people have that auto switch that says wargaming = nerdy and can't see past that. It's like, burned into their very being. You might be a bronzed adonis but all they do is stare, point and laugh as you move your space mans over the board, biceps rippling
I was the captain of my highschool rugby team, I'm in marketing for supply chain solutions company, I dress very well on a daily basis (considering I'm only 24). I can cook, build furniture, repair engines, know more useless movie/music information than I'll ever need, I paint (canvases not just models), and I've typically has a pretty successful sex life with the ladies.
I don't think anything about me can be defined by any one label, and I think that of all people.
Toofast wrote: I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
First of all, I want to meet you - you sound like my dream man.
Secondly, 'extremely attractive women that play 40k'.. you had me until that moment I don't think I've met one in 25 years of wargaming (maybe it's my location?) although I have met about 5000 'overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills' in that time.
I grew up in a Navy town/family. it was amazing that most of the players were in fact military and you could guess what they did in their branch by what army they were playing. Jump out of a plane? Blood angels! Medic? Red Scorpions.
Toofast wrote: Well I've gotten a few of my exes into 40k back when we were dating. They were all attractive so I count that. Outside of myself or friends getting hot girls to play, I haven't seen an attractive female wargamer. Does that still count?
hmm thats what they all say,
I think there could be bias here !
To all of those who cannot understand OPs pov, your not in high school Nobody likes it when you tell them that you play a modelling board game in your free time.
Toofast wrote: I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.
Sorry mate, I don't believe people knowing about a hobby like ours would hinder you in your professional life.
Really, I feel sorry for you since you feel the need to hide such a benign thing about yourself. Sounds like a miserable way to live.
There is no need to feel sorry for me. It's a choice I made and I chose to live by it. War gaming is a rather small part of my life and I gladly choose not being able to openly talk about it when the wage I receive ensures a life free of any financial worries for me, my wife and our daughter (and future children) along with being able to spend a lot of quality time with our little family. I am not allowed to go into further detail in regards to my occupation, but let's just say that some branches require absolute and flawless professionalism when dealing with international partners all over the planet and most people in said branch being highly conservative and stiff with little to no tolerance for stepping out of the line.
Who are you, Donald Trump?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Entirely personal perspective.
I don't tell people I play wargames. They know me as they know me. I got nothing to hide, but it's not something I advocate. It's my personal hobby, that's all.
When I'm not drooling over Golden Demon models I'm drinking p*ss, taking dr*gs and trying to smash whatever p*ssy chooses to stand in my way. Lol. Sorry but it's pretty much how it is.
REGARDLESS I LOVE WARHAMMER DEM LIL MINACHORES ARE KEWL AND FUN TO PAINT CAUSE IM A CREATIVE PERSON IM MY SPARE TIME.
Toofast wrote: Well I've gotten a few of my exes into 40k back when we were dating. They were all attractive so I count that. Outside of myself or friends getting hot girls to play, I haven't seen an attractive female wargamer. Does that still count?
hmm thats what they all say,
I think there could be bias here !
I think you should hook up with Pacific.
Toofast wrote:I need a pic of Pacific before that happens
Time for me to leave the thread then, haha !
40-50% from the military sounds very high, I can only imagine it is different in the US? I know a couple of guys that play who are ex-army, but that's probably all out of a large group of friends and whatnot. Know lots of people who play that know a lot about the military and history, but that's different.
Nerd is just a word and since gaming in many flavours became a mainstream thing it's not the same as 20 years ago. In my school time playing video games, RPGs or tabletop definitely made you a nerd since most people didn't understand at all what you are doing. If you are a 14 years old today chances are high that your dad played video games (or still does) and probably at least knows what roleplay is (even if he calls all systems D&D). In the late 80s and early 90s there even were campaigns by church groups condemning such games as work of the devil.
So nowadays being a nerd is maybe something different. I also noted that while back in the days the "classic nerd" mostly was intelligent, interested in science, reading, etc. if I go to a tabletop shop or gaming event I see a much more diverse target audience. In the late 80s the typical jock wouldn't have played a video game at all, today most of them own a PlayStation. Not a bad thing at all I guess, maybe there is a bit more understanding than back then.
I like what I like, and hang with people who like the same things. My wife likes that I have passionate interests and supports me as such. Anything else is but so much dust in the wind.
A nerd/geek can never become a jock and be able to play great at sports and have a great physique, but a Jock can be a geek and play with plastic toy soldiers.
Why am I seeing "closet geek" for a few people here? To ashamed to admit it?
Davor wrote: A nerd/geek can never become a jock and be able to play great at sports and have a great physique
Why not? Getting good at a sport simply takes dedication and practice at it, and getting a better physique just some hard work at the gym or other outside activities.
I was never a 'jock', but when I was in school I both played wargamed and surfed.
Davor wrote: A nerd/geek can never become a jock and be able to play great at sports and have a great physique
Why not? Getting good at a sport simply takes dedication and practice at it, and getting a better physique just some hard work at the gym or other outside activities.
I was never a 'jock', but when I was in school I both played wargamed and surfed.
I didn't say that properly. Ok let's try again.
A nerd geek in the classic sense, very skinny no muscle, or fat and out of shape, just normal looking and very social awkward will in most cases never become a jock. Usually a Jock has good looks, very good body physique and socially acceptable. A nerd/geek as I just said could never do this in most cases. No matter how good they are, we will never have a Bill Gates looking like he can be a Quarter Back or Captain of a Football/hockey/baseball/what ever manly sport you think of. He will never be a UFC fighter/boxer with good looks. He will never be a Brock Lesnar.
But all these people if they play with plastic toy soldiers are Geeks because that is what us geeks do. Call it an "inner geek" which a lot of people don't want it know to others that is what they do. We even have a few posters here who have an "inner geek" they are ashamed of to admit. To say you are not a geek means you are ashamed to say that you are a geek because you like doing geeky things.
As someone who has had a rather colourful history, played sports all my life, used (cba these days) to have abbs I could have used to grate Jason Stathams chin on. Im a proud toy soldier geek.
Anyone got an issue with that. Well step into the ring son and see who the real biatch is shall we
Really in this day and age the whole gamers (PC, consoles, modelling) =/= geek/nerd is total garbage.
Another reason why 40K gaming and some other games are considered for Geeks and Nerds. Just look at the forums.
Mathhammer. Number crunching. When ever it's number crunching, it's usually for geeks and nerds.
Monopoly. Is it really number crunching? No. You roll your dice and play, everyone is on equal footing at the beginning. Playing a game like 40K, Warmahordes or what ever, for a lot of people it comes down to number crunching, what army is "better" so that is why Monopoly is a board game for "normal" people and 40K/Warmahordes is for Geeks/nerds.
Maybe that is why Risk is not considered a Geek/Nerd game because there is no number crunching in the game. Again everyone is on equal footing from the beginning.
I believe that is why board games are considered ok to play but when it comes to miniature games, when number crunching is involved, no matter on how much a small or big scale, it's for geeks and nerds to play with.
That is why computers was for nerds in the beginning. Number crunching. Now we don't need to know DOS or what ever came before DOS. To use a console or computer doesn't need number crunching anymore so it's ok to use now without any stigma to it.
Only number crunching that is ok for a Manly man to play is Poker, and Sports stats like Baseball. Then again when it comes to baseball if you know the stats for that game and players, it's more of a compulsion than being a real fan and could have a stigma to that.
