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Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 09:55:14


Post by: Purifier


For the past few books like 'Nids, there has been tremendous amounts of whine coming down after the first few playtests, people throwing their hands in the air, calling it quits.

The GK book was completely gutted, leaving a bare remnant of what it used to be, adding not a single new unit, scrapping special characters (Castellan Crowe and Mordrak) and completely scratching a lot of the rules that made the army special. (Grand Strategy, Psybolt ammo, +2ini halberds...)

And yet, after the first few cries of "there's nothing left!" before the book was released, I've not really read any whine about it. Personally, I quite like the new book.
I guess the people that were never really interested in the GKs moved on to the Inquisition book, and the rest of us enjoyed the terminator buff enough to keep us satisfied.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 10:03:19


Post by: Zewrath


Mostly it's due to the fact that most GK are trashing their opponents in many of their games. The NDK is even more a beast and the new organization that lets them generate warp charges on 3+ (Added with the dirt cheap lvl 3 psykers) is actually quite good and flavorful. Added bonus is that Draigo is a beast and joining with the SW's for pods with combat squadded purifiers (that generates a warp charge each) can put quite a hurt on blobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, even though the interwebz cries about how everything was gutted and destroyed, the ACTUAL GK's actually got better and no matter how much nostalgia sprinkle dust people poured over the old codex, the fact remains is that a good "GK" army was maxed out Psydreads, inquisitors, henchmen and psybacks. Which largely indicated a blatant issue with internal balance, and let's not even talk about the stupidness that was the double Cortezz clone.


PS: The only real valid complaint I can relate to, is that fething atrocious layout of the new 7th. Edition codices have been sporting. Trading old artwork on unit entries with pictures of gakky drybrushed models, and the absurd page flipping you need to do in order to check the unit's rules, cost, war gear, rules on war gear.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 10:50:30


Post by: Purifier


 Zewrath wrote:
PS: The only real valid complaint I can relate to, is that fething atrocious layout of the new 7th. Edition codices have been sporting. Trading old artwork on unit entries with pictures of gakky drybrushed models, and the absurd page flipping you need to do in order to check the unit's rules, cost, war gear, rules on war gear.


Totally disagree. I love the new lay out. I wasn't sitting there admiring the drawings anyway, and the new lay out has the "bestiary" and "shopping" sections smashed together. If anything, I find it has cut down dramatically on my flipping.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 10:56:27


Post by: Zewrath


 Purifier wrote:
 Zewrath wrote:
PS: The only real valid complaint I can relate to, is that fething atrocious layout of the new 7th. Edition codices have been sporting. Trading old artwork on unit entries with pictures of gakky drybrushed models, and the absurd page flipping you need to do in order to check the unit's rules, cost, war gear, rules on war gear.


Totally disagree. I love the new lay out. I wasn't sitting there admiring the drawings anyway, and the new lay out has the "bestiary" and "shopping" sections smashed together. If anything, I find it has cut down dramatically on my flipping.


Well, that's your opinion, I've almost heard nothing but the opposite but of course, what I hear from a couple of people doesn't necessarily represent the majority.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 11:22:25


Post by: Jidmah


People are more likely to complain that to praise

Personally, I like the new layout as well. After the initial reading pictures don't matter anyways, and you find the stuff you're looking for a lot faster than previously. The only odd thing about the ork codex is warlord traits being listed in the back, rather than in front of the army rules. But they suck anyways, so not much of a loss.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 11:26:13


Post by: Purifier


 Jidmah wrote:
People are more likely to complain that to praise

Personally, I like the new layout as well. After the initial reading pictures don't matter anyways, and you find the stuff you're looking for a lot faster than previously. The only odd thing about the ork codex is warlord traits being listed in the back, rather than in front of the army rules. But they suck anyways, so not much of a loss.


So is the GK. Just a new place for them, together with the army special rules.

I guess the new layout is better for GK than others, though. For me, each unit type taking up a whole page is no big deal, as there are only 18 of them. SW have over 40 of those pages, so that might contribute to the complaint of the page-flipping.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 12:09:59


Post by: Kerrathyr


Globally, I like the new Codex, in structure asin contents, even if...

Even if there are some points that puzzle me, but most can be my personal view of the GKs.

For example the (relative) short range of psycannond, the elimination of servo skulls or the "lack" of deep strike on purgators and purifiers (an option, even costly, would have fitted more my image... Idk, a 50 pts. option (not having drop pods by themselves) for those squads (and dreadnoughts?).

But again, I like the new Codex. I think I can bring in all the weapons (finally.. I always liked the style for psilencers) and a "mix" of PA units.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 12:20:25


Post by: Purifier


 Kerrathyr wrote:
Globally, I like the new Codex, in structure asin contents, even if...

Even if there are some points that puzzle me, but most can be my personal view of the GKs.

For example the (relative) short range of psycannond, the elimination of servo skulls or the "lack" of deep strike on purgators and purifiers (an option, even costly, would have fitted more my image... Idk, a 50 pts. option (not having drop pods by themselves) for those squads (and dreadnoughts?).

But again, I like the new Codex. I think I can bring in all the weapons (finally.. I always liked the style for psilencers) and a "mix" of PA units.


I think GK Dreads should definitely have deep strike.
For balance purposes, I can actually understand purifiers not being able to DS, but then they go and ruin that balance by allowing us to ally drop pods instead...


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 13:05:19


Post by: MWHistorian


I heard a great deal of criticism about the book being cut in half but with a higher price.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 13:10:03


Post by: Murenius


Almost frightening... the Assassins Dataslate is also quite solid. Not too strong, not too weak, giving additional options. I think this is also the case for GK: you got a strong theme, have enough options to variate and will see rewards if you stick to the theme. I certainly hope the next codex will work out as well...

I guess removing the options to cut down complexity is acceptable collateral damage. Better than the CSM codex where several units are simply trash which nobody will take (e.g. Mutilators or Possessed).


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 14:50:45


Post by: Sledgehammer


They did a lot of the same things with the new IG book.

Took out Cherkov, and Al'Reheim, which were cool units that changed the dynamic of some ig armies.

it feels like to me that instead of balancing asymmetrical armies with each other they are homogenizing a lot of them to perform similarly.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 15:55:24


Post by: Grey Templar


 Purifier wrote:
scrapping special characters (Castellan Crowe and Mordrak)


Crowe is still in the book. The characters who got removed were Thawn and Mordrak(and the inquisitors)

And yeah, the book is definitely playable. It is a new playstyle focused on lots of psychic powers and deep striking.

Only thing I'm really cheesed off about is losing Psybolts.

I think we all saw the change to Salvo for psycannons so we've just accepted it.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 19:31:04


Post by: Makumba


if he doesn't make purfiers troops, then crow may as well not be in the book.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 19:47:08


Post by: Grey Templar


True. He doesn't occupy the "dirt cheap HQ" spot anymore either.

Kitted out Librarian is cheaper.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 20:14:09


Post by: TheKbob


It could be that many simply just said "No, thanks." to the release. I've seen an uptick if GK armies on swap groups. Many of the personal gaming groups of just friends and acquaintances simply just shelved them or didn't care.

There's something that could be said that hatred and frustration expressions still show a keen interest in the subject. Complete apathy means people are looking elsewhere. The GK book got gutted and killed two of the popular army play styles. I'm hoping many folks were sensible enough to simply say no to such a blatant disregard to the customer.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 20:31:10


Post by: Smotejob


Absolutely loving the new dex.. The gk have been tabling or almost tabling their opponents by turn 3 quite often (even the leman Russ heavy lists..proof we can deal with heavy armor) in their first few weeks of trial.

Where we struggle is against other terminators/2+ saves and av13+ still. But deepstriking/shunting behind vehicles is very easy and totally a thing and we have the mobility to choose our engagements now

This week I am going to start to bring my inquisition back into the game for skulls and some meltas to teleport around with dragio and see how it goes.

(We have some competitive players in our community to include some who do very well in national tournaments and we all usually bring a fluffy list and a competitive one for either type of game)




Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 20:53:06


Post by: ClassicCarraway


Well, to be fair, most of the whining dies down after the book actually comes out. Prior to every new codex, people see the rumors, leaks, etc, lose their mind, come on Dakka and BOLS and rant and rave how they are done, selling the army, etc.

Then the codex is released, players play a few games, and suddenly all is calm. This happened with Marines, AM, Orks, Space Wolves, and now Grey Knights. Nids seems to be one of the few exceptions as there is still alot of grumbling and grousing on that one.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 20:55:13


Post by: Grey Templar


Most of the time it takes at least 3-4 months before the "Doom and Gloom" settles, or at least another codex release. Much more than "a few" games.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 20:57:50


Post by: MWHistorian


 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Well, to be fair, most of the whining dies down after the book actually comes out. Prior to every new codex, people see the rumors, leaks, etc, lose their mind, come on Dakka and BOLS and rant and rave how they are done, selling the army, etc.

Then the codex is released, players play a few games, and suddenly all is calm. This happened with Marines, AM, Orks, Space Wolves, and now Grey Knights. Nids seems to be one of the few exceptions as there is still alot of grumbling and grousing on that one.

Could be that those dissatisfied with the dex stop playing it, leaving only those who like it? Seems plausable.
You hear Nid complaints more because its less justifiable even with its fans?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 21:03:22


Post by: Jancoran


 Purifier wrote:
For the past few books like 'Nids, there has been tremendous amounts of whine coming down after the first few playtests, people throwing their hands in the air, calling it quits.

The GK book was completely gutted, leaving a bare remnant of what it used to be, adding not a single new unit, scrapping special characters (Castellan Crowe and Mordrak) and completely scratching a lot of the rules that made the army special. (Grand Strategy, Psybolt ammo, +2ini halberds...)

And yet, after the first few cries of "there's nothing left!" before the book was released, I've not really read any whine about it. Personally, I quite like the new book.
I guess the people that were never really interested in the GKs moved on to the Inquisition book, and the rest of us enjoyed the terminator buff enough to keep us satisfied.


they didnt scrap Crowe...

But anywho, all the books have been a lot more balanced. everyone wants to complain when they LOSE. THAT'S ALWAYS been the problem. Change comes HARD and its not like the prices are allowing new players to flood in at a rabid pace nor older players to adjust QUICKLY with a couple (not free but not uber expensive) upgrades. That's on GW. They just let their greed get the better of them when selling starter boxes. But even that's changing, for those paying attention. the recent starters have been at a savings. Unfortunately, a discount from a very high price to begin with but lets give credit where its due: its a start.

So Grey Knights are not going to get a lot of sympathy nor a lot of hatred. You can PRETTY much play the same lists and as long as you use multiple CADS, EXTREMELY similar lists. All the GK book is doing is forcing the hand of TO's into allowing multiple CAD's. And frankly while Im really NOT a "multi-CAD fan" I am now seeign that the codex's are ALL going to be written with the Multiple CAD's in mind.

Grey KNights require two CADS and another Detachment for me to play my list. And as long as my opponents dont care, that's what Ill do.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 21:03:34


Post by: Grey Templar


Not many people will just walk away from an investment like a 40k army just because the codex gets worse unless it totally shafts the army(which isn't what happened)

We got it worse than most, but we hardly got gutted like other codices have in the past.

At the very least we'd have a bunch of angry "I'm quitting GKs" threads.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 21:05:01


Post by: MWHistorian


 Grey Templar wrote:
Not many people will just walk away from an investment like a 40k army just because the codex gets worse unless it totally shafts the army(which isn't what happened)

We got it worse than most, but we hardly got gutted like other codices have in the past.

At the very least we'd have a bunch of angry "I'm quitting GKs" threads.

No, but people with multiple armies tend to shelf the ones they're not playing.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/11 23:52:48


Post by: Psienesis


... there's also the possibility that the game has lost pretty much all of the casual players its going to lose, and all that's left are the die-hards (even if they only play fluff/fun lists and not power-lists).


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 01:00:15


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Well, to be fair, most of the whining dies down after the book actually comes out. Prior to every new codex, people see the rumors, leaks, etc, lose their mind, come on Dakka and BOLS and rant and rave how they are done, selling the army, etc.

Then the codex is released, players play a few games, and suddenly all is calm. This happened with Marines, AM, Orks, Space Wolves, and now Grey Knights. Nids seems to be one of the few exceptions as there is still alot of grumbling and grousing on that one.

To be fair, there wasn't a lot of complaining about SM, AM or SW... and most of the complaining that did exist were in regards to BT getting folded and crappy new models (Centurions, Tauroxes, etc), nothing about the actual Codices. I'm still complaining about what they did to Nids...


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 01:12:01


Post by: MWHistorian


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Well, to be fair, most of the whining dies down after the book actually comes out. Prior to every new codex, people see the rumors, leaks, etc, lose their mind, come on Dakka and BOLS and rant and rave how they are done, selling the army, etc.

Then the codex is released, players play a few games, and suddenly all is calm. This happened with Marines, AM, Orks, Space Wolves, and now Grey Knights. Nids seems to be one of the few exceptions as there is still alot of grumbling and grousing on that one.

To be fair, there wasn't a lot of complaining about SM, AM or SW... and most of the complaining that did exist were in regards to BT getting folded and crappy new models (Centurions, Tauroxes, etc), nothing about the actual Codices. I'm still complaining about what they did to Nids...

And Chaos Space Marines.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 01:43:09


Post by: Envihon


I love the new Codex and it has really has me excited to play. I don't even mind that they aren't self-sufficient because it lets me have my Imperial Knight and Imperial Fists all in one go with needing a whole bunch of different armies.

A good amount of guys are buying the new codex in my local gaming group as well to get GK allies because of how well they fit that role. It definitely seems like all in all this was a win.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 01:51:15


Post by: Anpu42


Looking at everything since Codex: Space Marines landed has been balanced with each other is why my group has hade very little bad to say.
The Nids haves some issues, but seem to be doing ok.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 02:17:10


Post by: Dezstiny


 Purifier wrote:
For the past few books like 'Nids, there has been tremendous amounts of whine coming down after the first few playtests, people throwing their hands in the air, calling it quits.

The GK book was completely gutted, leaving a bare remnant of what it used to be, adding not a single new unit, scrapping special characters (Castellan Crowe and Mordrak) and completely scratching a lot of the rules that made the army special. (Grand Strategy, Psybolt ammo, +2ini halberds...)

And yet, after the first few cries of "there's nothing left!" before the book was released, I've not really read any whine about it. Personally, I quite like the new book.
I guess the people that were never really interested in the GKs moved on to the Inquisition book, and the rest of us enjoyed the terminator buff enough to keep us satisfied.


The primary reaons are because..

1. The Units that were hit are not actually units that were played that much, not as fun as it is now. Before it was about Paladins, Psyfleman Dreads, and Inquisitorial henchmen in razorback spam.
This playstyle, is not the playstyle in my personal opinion that Most Gk got into this faction for. They liked Gk because of the terminators as troops, Dreadknights, interceptors, and purifiers. All of said units were buffed by decreasing the point cost of the units, enabling you to field more of them, which was a primary problem before. You can get a lot more for your points now.

2. The Nemsis Strike formation ability to deepstrike on turn 1 while not necessarily appeasing to me all that well, is very appeasing to players who really like the idea of turn 1 alpha strikes with a ton of terminators backed up by shunting Knights and Interceptors. Before you had to wait a turn to deepstrike or get a rhino for your strike squads... that is no longer the case

3.The final reason being that they are amazing when combined with allies. I mean combined with allies I'm pretty sure your chances to win probably rises by a full 10%. They synergize so well with the top tier armies (SM, NECRONS, ELDAR) it's like "Happy New Year Everyday" I mean DraigoCenturion star is utterly crazy.. having the best 2 death stars in the game... Libby/Khan is absolutely crazy that you can now back up grav gun bikers with dreadknights and a solid and respectable libby star support squad. Draigostar/Wraithstar... is utterly crazy because you get an extremely fast headache death star backed up with Night scythes and ahinlation barges backing up dreadknights and a draigostar. Draigo Star Wave Serpent Spam grants you exactly what you wish you had in a waveserpent spam list... a strong central unit to rely on when your opponent gets close. DraigoStar/Wyvern guard grants guard a strong central unit to lead as your guardsman shoot the enemy from afar without being subject to most of the attention.

Really there is just no way not to be happy about this codex. It perfectly compliments 7th edition which is playing 2 armies half in half and enabling each armies strengths to help cover their main weaknesses..This is proably the best codex out the 3 daemonhunter/gk codexes, in terms of balanced units and consistently respectable results.

Trust me, the bandwagon is only getting longer... just like I said in my thread... this codex would probably change the meta in some manner



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 03:05:14


Post by: chnmmr


For me, the reason I am not saying much and I am sure others are not saying much is because there is little to say. There is very little to this codex, very little variation and mechanically far blander than it was before. I played a game with my GKs vs some nids and while I won, I realised that I'll probably be playing the same librarian/terminator/DKnight list over and over because that is all there is. yes I know there are strike squads, paladins, etc, I just believe that there GK codex is severely limited when it comes to viable lists now.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 04:08:45


Post by: greyknight12


The reason is because with the exception of 5th edition GK players have had to be creative. Codex: Daemonhunters required creativity and adaptability and GK in 6th did as well. We never expected to roll through GTs, we just did the best we could with the tools we were given.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 04:15:19


Post by: Toofast


People are just upset that codex GK isn't codex GK/inquisition/assasins any more. Personally I'm ok with them making the GK codex actually about GK instead of people fielding a "GK" list where 2/3 of the models weren't even GK. It's still a strong book, especially as allies to marines. Quite a few players in my local meta have started GK since the new book came out and my meta is all tournament lists so it must not be all that bad.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 05:02:47


Post by: Quickjager


What is there to say about GKs anymore?

Your going to be taking Dreadknights, Termies as troops, and a ML3 Libby everytime, toss in the odd Draigo.

Those units literally form the basis for their own standalone army, as well as a allied detachment if you're playing as something else.

Lots of options were lost with the codex change, so either we just don't play or we suck it up and do so. Our Dreadnought were head and shoulders above everyone elses, not anymore. Purgation Squads "compete" (lol) with Dreadknights for the HS slot. Strikes now serve to be a cheap way to fill the troop slot if you're looking on maxing Dreadknights.

The unit that really did get direct upgrade besides the DK are Purifiers with their ML2 and nova, but in turn were hurt with the lack of +2 int halberds as they fall as easily as a tac marine still and we still lack a good in-codex way to deliver them. We look to SW allies for that now.

I just want my Mordrak back :(


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 05:17:11


Post by: Dezstiny


chnmmr wrote:
For me, the reason I am not saying much and I am sure others are not saying much is because there is little to say. There is very little to this codex, very little variation and mechanically far blander than it was before. I played a game with my GKs vs some nids and while I won, I realised that I'll probably be playing the same librarian/terminator/DKnight list over and over because that is all there is. yes I know there are strike squads, paladins, etc, I just believe that there GK codex is severely limited when it comes to viable lists now.


QFT, though where you will obtain variety is by that of which ally you choose to play alongside... that is if you dont play pure gk


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 05:30:16


Post by: Toofast


Playing pure anything just isn't that viable any more when everyone uses allies to shore up their weaknesses. GK can be played pure but they will do far better with SM or SW allied in.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 06:00:05


Post by: SHUPPET


It's a combination of things I think.

For starters, I think everyone was semi expecting a subpar released by now, we are used to it - wasn't as much of a surprise as others.

Secondly, the main complaint everyone has about the codexes is not actually that it's poorly written, or lack of playable units, or stupid nerfs, these are all just scapegoat acceptable reasons to express disappointment at the fact that their army got weaker.
I discovered this with the Nid release, as soon as the Skyblight dataslate dropped, 95% of the people complaining about the "blandness" of the codex were suddenly all smiles and thanking GW for coming through with some "better written formations". When in reality, Skyblight is one of the blandest builds in the game, the list practically writes itself, everyone just changed their tune because they received a top Flyer Spam tier build to cheese with. And the reality of the codex being poorly written was still just as prominent as ever, people just used it as a scapegoat to begin with.

GK got stronger, much more blatantly than the other dexes, and also mostly to models already used competitively. Even though they lost more than half their codex, there is the least complaining so far. This is not a coincidence.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 07:45:10


Post by: Dezstiny


 SHUPPET wrote:
It's a combination of things I think.

For starters, I think everyone was semi expecting a subpar released by now, we are used to it - wasn't as much of a surprise as others.

Secondly, the main complaint everyone has about the codexes is not actually that it's poorly written, or lack of playable units, or stupid nerfs, these are all just scapegoat acceptable reasons to express disappointment at the fact that their army got weaker.
I discovered this with the Nid release, as soon as the Skyblight dataslate dropped, 95% of the people complaining about the "blandness" of the codex were suddenly all smiles and thanking GW for coming through with some "better written formations". When in reality, Skyblight is one of the blandest builds in the game, the list practically writes itself, everyone just changed their tune because they received a top Flyer Spam tier build to cheese with. And the reality of the codex being poorly written was still just as prominent as ever, people just used it as a scapegoat to begin with.

GK got stronger, much more blatantly than the other dexes, and also mostly to models already used competitively. Even though they lost more than half their codex, there is the least complaining so far. This is not a coincidence.


Totally agree, Gk players lost half its codex, but as long as they are still highly competitive, nobody seems to care to much. I mean tbh there is literally 1 build to play then you + an ally and that is Draigo, Libby, Termis and 2x Knights but as long as it does work and is enjoyable to the player... no complaints.

I believe that give it a month or 2 and GK players will stop playing as much given the totally linear nature of the faction right now. I mean you go that build or some manner of Deepstriking 4 Terminator squads, and even then the list looks very much the same, because all you added were 3-5man terminator units, maybe a unit of interceptors combat squaded and a stormraven... I mean at the end of the day... one can only play a list so many times and win until they finally bore of playing out the same strategy over and over again.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 08:48:40


Post by: Jancoran


My opinion is that codex driven problems have been reduced and ONLY power gamers pretty much complain too loudly. The Main ruleset makes play so much better and Im just happy wit hthe direction honestly.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 20:01:09


Post by: Murenius


And there we are again with the problems of pleasing a heterogeneous fanbase. In the past GW tried to please them all, make some models more powerful ("Sure, they make the expensive models strong to sell more of them"), add new models that are not auto includes ("They add useless gak that nobody plays") and generally add a variety of rules ("All those rules without clear precedence are not well written and conflict with others").

I think everyone is better off if they take the risk of pissing those off who want variety and instead create codices that are clearly written, usable and have reduced complexity. Complexity comes with the addition of allies, if wanted, and if all those rules are grouped in codices, supplements and dataslates it is easier for GW to fix problems without having to republish large parts of their merchandise. After all it's a huge cost issue if you have shipped codices in all stores and then a new one comes.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 10:58:42


Post by: Envihon


chnmmr wrote:
For me, the reason I am not saying much and I am sure others are not saying much is because there is little to say. There is very little to this codex, very little variation and mechanically far blander than it was before. I played a game with my GKs vs some nids and while I won, I realised that I'll probably be playing the same librarian/terminator/DKnight list over and over because that is all there is. yes I know there are strike squads, paladins, etc, I just believe that there GK codex is severely limited when it comes to viable lists now.


That being said though, they make it easy for GK to ally or be allies and I think that is where the creativity truly begins. I actually like that the GKs aren't self-sufficient and need allies or be allies because it allows the encouraged use of other codices. I know that makes it so someone who wants to play GK would have to buy two codices at least for them to get the most out of their army but in the end it is nice. When this new Codex came out, I went into a list making creative mode like I have never done before because before hand, the GK were so expensive, they needed to be taken as a lone force or with huge amounts of henchman which I saw spoiling the flavor of the GK as much as having to ally them to other Imperial forces. Now? I am working up different ways to run them with my Imperial Fists and Imperial Knight, and now they feel like that exclusive fighting force like they are suppose to be as an Imperial Force comes in from the front laying down fire, the GK DS in the back striking at a key point to cripple an enemy. That is everything a GK is suppose to be and I love it even if the standard template for the GK is Librarian, Terminators and DKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dezstiny wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
It's a combination of things I think.

For starters, I think everyone was semi expecting a subpar released by now, we are used to it - wasn't as much of a surprise as others.

Secondly, the main complaint everyone has about the codexes is not actually that it's poorly written, or lack of playable units, or stupid nerfs, these are all just scapegoat acceptable reasons to express disappointment at the fact that their army got weaker.
I discovered this with the Nid release, as soon as the Skyblight dataslate dropped, 95% of the people complaining about the "blandness" of the codex were suddenly all smiles and thanking GW for coming through with some "better written formations". When in reality, Skyblight is one of the blandest builds in the game, the list practically writes itself, everyone just changed their tune because they received a top Flyer Spam tier build to cheese with. And the reality of the codex being poorly written was still just as prominent as ever, people just used it as a scapegoat to begin with.

GK got stronger, much more blatantly than the other dexes, and also mostly to models already used competitively. Even though they lost more than half their codex, there is the least complaining so far. This is not a coincidence.


Totally agree, Gk players lost half its codex, but as long as they are still highly competitive, nobody seems to care to much. I mean tbh there is literally 1 build to play then you + an ally and that is Draigo, Libby, Termis and 2x Knights but as long as it does work and is enjoyable to the player... no complaints.

I believe that give it a month or 2 and GK players will stop playing as much given the totally linear nature of the faction right now. I mean you go that build or some manner of Deepstriking 4 Terminator squads, and even then the list looks very much the same, because all you added were 3-5man terminator units, maybe a unit of interceptors combat squaded and a stormraven... I mean at the end of the day... one can only play a list so many times and win until they finally bore of playing out the same strategy over and over again.


I disagree because that is the beauty of DSing in the first place, the flexibility of being able to put units where you need them, hopefully, when you need them. I have never had a a rinse repeat strategy with GK despite having pretty much the same list for a good while and I haven't gotten bored either because each battle is different with a different mission set and a person who uses different tactics. You can't play Maelstrom missions like you would regular missions and you can't just go killing things either. Part of the reason I have won my games is applying DS in the correct ways to win the mission and this makes so no battle is the same, only set up is quicker because I know what I am taking all the time. DS is probably one of the most flexible mechanics for getting units around where they need to be besides using units like bikes and on top of that, we have shunters. Using the same tactics every game because you are using the same list every time is just bad strategy.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 12:00:15


Post by: SHUPPET


 Jancoran wrote:
My opinion is that codex driven problems have been reduced and ONLY power gamers pretty much complain too loudly. The Main ruleset makes play so much better and Im just happy wit hthe direction honestly.


Interesting opinion. Any supporting logic as to why it's STRICTLY limited to power gamers who might be upset at losing half their codex and being herded into one of the most blandest monolist codexes since SoB? Because you didn't mention any. I mean there is practically one sensible build in the dex, sure the dex is stronger than it used to be, but far more linear.

Logic how I see it, is that power gamers would be the only ones HAPPY with these changes. They get to win more games, and they are the type of people who don't care about anything BUT the strongest monobuild, so no loss to them whatsoever.

Calling everyone who disagrees with your opinion a powergamer, regardless of which side of the fence they sit on, isn't going to hold for very long. The people asking for better internal balance and complaining about lack of options and list building versatility from their dex are not the powergamers, the people complaining that they didn't get a top tier build or a Rapetide level MC are the powergamers. Except they did get one. Hence why they aren't complaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Envihon wrote:
chnmmr wrote:
For me, the reason I am not saying much and I am sure others are not saying much is because there is little to say. There is very little to this codex, very little variation and mechanically far blander than it was before. I played a game with my GKs vs some nids and while I won, I realised that I'll probably be playing the same librarian/terminator/DKnight list over and over because that is all there is. yes I know there are strike squads, paladins, etc, I just believe that there GK codex is severely limited when it comes to viable lists now.


That being said though, they make it easy for GK to ally or be allies and I think that is where the creativity truly begins. I actually like that the GKs aren't self-sufficient and need allies or be allies because it allows the encouraged use of other codices. I know that makes it so someone who wants to play GK would have to buy two codices at least for them to get the most out of their army but in the end it is nice. When this new Codex came out, I went into a list making creative mode like I have never done before because before hand, the GK were so expensive, they needed to be taken as a lone force or with huge amounts of henchman which I saw spoiling the flavor of the GK as much as having to ally them to other Imperial forces. Now? I am working up different ways to run them with my Imperial Fists and Imperial Knight, and now they feel like that exclusive fighting force like they are suppose to be as an Imperial Force comes in from the front laying down fire, the GK DS in the back striking at a key point to cripple an enemy. That is everything a GK is suppose to be and I love it even if the standard template for the GK is Librarian, Terminators and DKs.

Posts like this hurt my head.

You are celebrating the fact that you have LESS options, and are linearly pushed into one build or forced into taking an ally.

Allies are in no way a defense of a codex's flaws, because.... you are discussing using a new codex. This is one of the most poorly written releases yet, I'd almost say it's worse than the Nid one. I'm already unimpressed, not sure how I'd feel if I was a GK player.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/12 12:45:37


Post by: zephoid


The GK competitive crowd has long ago moved on to other armies. Besides them, not many people wanted to play GK. They were incredibly bland in fluff with a lot of mary sue descriptions and not much in the way of actually distinguishing features in the fluff. Ooo they are all psykers. That really doesnt mean much in terms of fluff since they rarely give descriptions of them actually doing anything more than denying other pskers with this ability.

In gameplay they were VERY boring. LITERALLY every single PA squad could be replaced with an upgrade to strike squads. Characters are pretty meh across the board now that the interesting inquisitors arent there.NDK is just a face-palm bad model that is brokenly OP in 7th (but, like the 5th tervigon, the only thing the codex has).

So, boring codex+ Marine army (easier to convert to another marine army)+nerfed codex= far less interest.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 07:36:59


Post by: Jancoran


 SHUPPET wrote:

Interesting opinion. Any supporting logic as to why it's STRICTLY limited to power gamers who might be upset at losing half their codex and being herded into one of the most blandest monolist codexes since SoB? Because you didn't mention any. I mean there is practically one sensible build in the dex, sure the dex is stronger than it used to be, but far more linear.

Calling everyone who disagrees with your opinion a powergamer, regardless of which side of the fence they sit on, isn't going to hold for very long. .


Overstating my opinion to make a point doesnt hold for very long either.

Power gamers DO in fact, complain more loudly. One can say otherwise if one wants to but...

I do not IN FACT hear a bunch of fluff gamers getting up in arms about much of anything unless its...yes.,..fluff. Or maybe they just hate change. But people who hate change are not NEARLY as loud. Just loudER.

And I hear this monobuild thing all the time. Im not going to go through the annuls of history and give you 50 links to prove the bitching and complaining starts before they even see the damn thing but trust me: I could. EVERY codex gets this silly label of Mono-build. Not buying. Sorry, but with all respect that is due, not buying. Cant name ONE codex right now that is "monobuild" and even less than zero that ever were before that. Its a myth. It SOUNDS good so people say it and because it SOUNDs good or sage, people buy it. Not this hombre.

I understand that the first and most obvious build jumps out at people sometimes but after playing for a bit you rapidly learn that myth. Remember the leafblower. Sure. It'll getcha. Once. It was monobuild right? And power gamers with their focus on winning HATE it when they lose their pet toy that won them lots of toys. Dont tell me otherwise. Ive seen a dude rage quit over it and he was actually GOOD. Just too lazy to be bothered with looking a little deeper.

Now you're not wrong about one thing. Power Gamers are okay with uber builds wherever they find them but like most gamers, they dont lose their chance to whine and complain first. No no no. But far more vociferous are their complaints than any of the serious generals who "get" the game and dont NEED win buttons to play. For us: Meh. I am going to play Purifiers because I happen to like them and they're painted. I am going to kill a lot of people with them and when someone explains to me that my 100 wins or whatever that total reaches were anecdotal I'll just tell them how much fun "anecdotal" is and smile. Cause the scoreboard at the end of the day is going to make me look wise or like a liar. I'll own it either way it goes. But at least I'll have spared you the sky is falling attitude which one hopes you'll appreciate me for THEN if not NOW.





Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2018/09/25 07:43:09


Post by: SHUPPET


So basically, you're a casual gamer, and anybody else who would like to see codexes balanced competitively and equally is a PowerGamer?

Why can't people who enjoy the competitiveness of a strategy game just be competitive gamers?

Obviously there is no balance related problems for people who don't care about balance and only care about "which models look cool".


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 07:42:01


Post by: Jancoran


 SHUPPET wrote:
So basically, you're a casual gamer, and anybody else who would like to see codexes balanced competitively and equally is a PowerGamer?

Why can't people who enjoy the competitiveness of a strategy game just be competitive gamers?


Again, dont oversimplify my point. Im not a casual gamer. Ask around.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 07:59:08


Post by: BlaxicanX


What metric are people using to state that GK are highly competitive? I'm not a GK player, myself.

In any case, I think people are more or less apathetic about the entire situation by now. The latest string of codices aren't like how they used to be, where there was always the possibility that the latest codex might be the next Eldar, or Tau, or Necrons on the power-scale. Every codex since the Tyranid codex has basically just been the same as its prior edition, with a bunch of options/flavor removed and points drops sprinkled over everything, maybe a token new unit that no one gives a gak about (Haruspex, Bullgryns etc).

So now we have Grey Knights, and what do we get? It's pretty much a resounding "meh". Stuff was taken out of it and sold separately as DLC, and a few points drops were sprinkled around to make most things slightly better. Oh and some of the good stuff like psycannons were nerfed because lulz.

After Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Orks and Space Wolves, this seems to be pretty par the course. I have no doubt the Deldar codex is going to be the same.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 07:59:12


Post by: SHUPPET


If someone was to ask me and I'm sure pretty much anyone else what the definition of a casual 40k player is, the simplest answer is "someone who takes models that look cool instead of building a cohesive list with better balanced models from the dex". It doesn't mean you play less, it doesn't mean you care less about the game, it merely means you approach the game with a different attitude than people who do care about rules balancing. But whatever, you aren't a casual gamer, your definition of a casual isn't even relevant to my statement which you blatantly skirted, my point is how come anybody who mentions the bad balancing inside a dex has to be a "power gamer"?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 08:40:46


Post by: Jancoran


 SHUPPET wrote:
If someone was to ask me and I'm sure pretty much anyone else what the definition of a casual 40k player is, the simplest answer is "someone who takes models that look cool instead of building a cohesive list with better balanced models from the dex". It doesn't mean you play less, it doesn't mean you care less about the game, it merely means you approach the game with a different attitude than people who do care about rules balancing. But whatever, you aren't a casual gamer, your definition of a casual isn't even relevant to my statement which you blatantly skirted, my point is how come anybody who mentions the bad balancing inside a dex has to be a "power gamer"?


I know that was your question. Your question is based on things I didn't state or that we havent agreed are true!

I didnt say anyone who "mentions...", you are claiming "bad balancing" which I recognize as being highly subjective; and your "reactive question" here also ignores my answer in which I said that they didn't have to be a power gamer to COMPLAIN.

So I didnt skirt it. I just am not going to allow you to change the terms of what I said nor presuppose things we dont agree on. Thats simple enough i think.

So IF your question is WHY do I find the practice of "saying its monobuild" ANNOYING? I think I answered it. And that answer sort of extends in the broader sense to the GENERAL misasma of negativity espoused every time a Codex drops and someones army has to change or whatever.

Let me ask you a point blank question. Why do I, your "casual gamer" (Im not offended by the way, but its not accurate) win? Why? Why does it work, regardless fo the codex? My blog might give you some insight.

Now take whatever answer you came up with and answer the next question: Youre not dumber than me; so if it works for me, CAN it work for you? The obvious answer: yes. It can be duplicated. The game isnt so arcane that you cant execute the most basic function of monkies: mimicking. You just need to change your thinking. And isnt it how we think about this stuff that we've been talking about?

While I will READILY agree that the codexes are only "roughly" fair and that certain specific matchups will at least give an edge to an opponent... Why are we talking about EXCEPTIONS as if they are rules? That seems wrong minded to me.

So I, a competitive player with a dozen best overalls and like 4 times that in Best General Awards can tell you that this codex, while not the worlds greatest (Im not stupid) is also pretty much par forthe course: easier to play and understand and a lot more like an actual Daemon Hunter codex than the previous one. Do i like it all. Nope. Do i need to? Nope.






Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 13:47:40


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


 MWHistorian wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Well, to be fair, most of the whining dies down after the book actually comes out. Prior to every new codex, people see the rumors, leaks, etc, lose their mind, come on Dakka and BOLS and rant and rave how they are done, selling the army, etc.

Then the codex is released, players play a few games, and suddenly all is calm. This happened with Marines, AM, Orks, Space Wolves, and now Grey Knights. Nids seems to be one of the few exceptions as there is still alot of grumbling and grousing on that one.

To be fair, there wasn't a lot of complaining about SM, AM or SW... and most of the complaining that did exist were in regards to BT getting folded and crappy new models (Centurions, Tauroxes, etc), nothing about the actual Codices. I'm still complaining about what they did to Nids...

And Chaos Space Marines.

Exactly. When there are valid complaints, the complaints are much louder and last much longer, compared to the "eh, I could do with/without ___" that characterizes the other "complaining" when a new Codex drops.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 14:00:46


Post by: MWHistorian


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Well, to be fair, most of the whining dies down after the book actually comes out. Prior to every new codex, people see the rumors, leaks, etc, lose their mind, come on Dakka and BOLS and rant and rave how they are done, selling the army, etc.

Then the codex is released, players play a few games, and suddenly all is calm. This happened with Marines, AM, Orks, Space Wolves, and now Grey Knights. Nids seems to be one of the few exceptions as there is still alot of grumbling and grousing on that one.

To be fair, there wasn't a lot of complaining about SM, AM or SW... and most of the complaining that did exist were in regards to BT getting folded and crappy new models (Centurions, Tauroxes, etc), nothing about the actual Codices. I'm still complaining about what they did to Nids...

And Chaos Space Marines.

Exactly. When there are valid complaints, the complaints are much louder and last much longer, compared to the "eh, I could do with/without ___" that characterizes the other "complaining" when a new Codex drops.

Nids and Chaos are inexcusably bad.
Nids, Chaos, and SOB are mono-build armies. (Yes, they do exist.) If you want to win with chaos, gotta go for nurgle+olbiterators+heldrake. For SOB, it's so limited that it's take as many exorcists and dominion squads as you can.

I was a fluffy player but the codex imbalances (internal and external) really helped push me out of the game. I was tired of the units I liked (repentia, penitent engines) being worthless on the field. I was tired of losing just because I fought a certain army. I'm not a competitive guy, but I don't like being punished for taking units I liked.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 14:28:33


Post by: SHUPPET


The issue win the Nid codex is the terrible internal balance. Out of the top 10 worst models in the game, I'd be surprised if at least 5 of them are not n the Nid dex. Almost 2/3's of our codex is not just uncompetitive but borderline unplayable and requires a fight to find a way to even include in a list. They nerfed terrible units that were already unplayable, into a further state of uselessness. They removed units without models. This is annoying when you lose a few named unique characters like AM did. It's deadset crippling to an entire style of play when it's your army's only transport in the game, and the units that get models instead are the freaking Haruspex and the Harpy. Really badly modelled at that I might add. We also lost the versatility of BRB powers, all our useable biomorph upgrades where nerfed and replaced with junk, we got a bunch of relics, and not once, still never, have I ever seen them even considered in a sensible list. Not a single one is even PLAYABLE. Nerfs to Synapse, nerfs to every single Synapse UNIT. Nerfs to every single CC weapon, nerfs to our Psychic Powers themselves brb aside, nerfs to our casters. Nerfs to the freaking Swarmlord who just became the worst model in the dex. The only thing that wasn't suitably nerfed was our troops, who were for the most part ignored, and still see zero play as always. Outside of the Tervigon, who was played, so he of course was nerfed to a state where he now sees zero play.

Then to compound all this, it was clearly written with 7th in mind, and yet not a single army had more units nerfed harder than Nids did. Smash nerfed to oblivion, FMC assault nerfed to oblivion, Vektor Strike nerfed to oblivion, we have units literally dedicated to doing all 3 of these things. The survivability of tanks being buffed, combined with the fact that we have no tanks, and the fact that all our AT from the last codex was suitably nerfed into "never taken" mode, and now our dex basically survives on the buffed Dakkafex, supported by some more focused models on the sidelines.



I'm not sure which release was handled worse. Nids or GK. Nids didn't get an NDK model so there was much more whinging truthfully stemming from this fact. However, OP models aside, I'm not sure what I would be less happier with. GK is actually probably worse. They give up the pretence of even bothering. I honestly feel for the legit GK mariners out there who wanted to see their dex rebalanced, not just a bunch of gak cut being made up for with an OP pubstomper


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 15:23:06


Post by: Jidmah


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. When there are valid complaints, the complaints are much louder and last much longer, compared to the "eh, I could do with/without ___" that characterizes the other "complaining" when a new Codex drops.


Not to mention that you often see the exact same people complaining in every post about every new codices. It's basically a baggage train of whiners that follow all the new releases around.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 15:56:54


Post by: SHUPPET


And does that make legitimate gripes any less relevant?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 16:03:32


Post by: Yonan


 Jidmah wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. When there are valid complaints, the complaints are much louder and last much longer, compared to the "eh, I could do with/without ___" that characterizes the other "complaining" when a new Codex drops.


Not to mention that you often see the exact same people complaining in every post about every new codices. It's basically a baggage train of whiners that follow all the new releases around.

Seem to recall you in those exact same threads saying everything was fine, nothing was broken. Weird!

 Purifier wrote:
And yet, after the first few cries of "there's nothing left!" before the book was released, I've not really read any whine about it. Personally, I quite like the new book.
I guess the people that were never really interested in the GKs moved on to the Inquisition book, and the rest of us enjoyed the terminator buff enough to keep us satisfied.

Many of us have moved further from GW and 40k. The exodus has only increased in speed since 7th so you might see less complaining because there are less people here to complain. As was said a few times in these discussions, the worst thing for GW is for us to become apathetic - GW moved me there very rapidly with the release of 7th, the day one dlc and the gutting of codices. Now I really just don't care what they do.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 16:59:20


Post by: Grey Templar


GK aren't so much mono-list as maybe having 2-3 possible lists and only one viable play style.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 17:05:06


Post by: TheKbob


I cannot see anyone defending splitting up $30 of content into $95 worth of content, deleting handfuls of things, and adding nothing of note (warlord traits, y'all!). Still the most asinine thing that's happened to the codex and it invalidated armies.

So yea, I still say that there isn't a big stink over GK just because people just packed up and left/shelved the army.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 17:08:15


Post by: SHUPPET


 Yonan wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. When there are valid complaints, the complaints are much louder and last much longer, compared to the "eh, I could do with/without ___" that characterizes the other "complaining" when a new Codex drops.


Not to mention that you often see the exact same people complaining in every post about every new codices. It's basically a baggage train of whiners that follow all the new releases around.

Seem to recall you in those exact same threads saying everything was fine, nothing was broken. Weird!



I remember him generally just complaining about people complaining without explaining how any of their complaints are unfounded. And here we are. What's changed?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 17:33:14


Post by: Super Newb


 TheKbob wrote:
I cannot see anyone defending splitting up $30 of content into $95 worth of content, deleting handfuls of things, and adding nothing of note (warlord traits, y'all!). Still the most asinine thing that's happened to the codex and it invalidated armies.

So yea, I still be that there isn't a big stink over GK just because people just packed up and left/shelved the army.


Ta da! We have a winner. I still haven't purchased the new GK dex, the Inquisition digital dex I now need to play what I could play before and the Assassins dataslate which I also now need to play.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 17:39:59


Post by: Jancoran


 MWHistorian wrote:

Nids, Chaos, and SOB are mono-build armies. (Yes, they do exist.) If you want to win with chaos, gotta go for nurgle+olbiterators+heldrake. For SOB, it's so limited that it's take as many exorcists and dominion squads as you can.
.


I cant disagree more. I play Night Lords successfully. I play Sisters of Battle EXTREMELY successfully. One of the best Sisters of Battle armies Ive seen was a GREAT combination of units. Just one Exorcist, two SMALL Dominion squads and the rest was things like Penitent Engines, 2 Immolatiors for them, a Retributor squad and the big thing was the LandRaider with Battle Conclave and priests which was positively a GREAT unit. It did WORK and took it like a champ.

My list looks nothing like it. Both my Sisters lists look nothing like each other. One is a ton of armor and the other is a ton of bodies. His hybrid was a little of both. Regardless, I think the assertion on mono builds, again, is mythical.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/13 18:18:01


Post by: SHUPPET


I actually kind of agree to an extent. Some codexes have a pretty clear cut best style of build, with maybe minor differences here and there. I think GK is one of them, Tau and Eldar are others. I think they share in some is some really bad balanced models in the direction of OP that make it hard to justify taking anything else. Eldar has other playable builds, Tau you can play differently and still compete with as well, but at the end of the day there is a clear cut mono build in the competitive scene. Tyranids have a bit of variation with ground lists being strong as well as flyer spam being popular, CSM is most definitely not a mono build dex, even sisters seems to have no clear cut best build although I'm admittedly not fully up to par with my knowledge on this army.

So while I agree that a lot of armies aren't mono builds, a lot are. But mono build or not, it's a terrible term that gets thrown around to describe different criticism far too often - mono build or not, Zyranid and CSM sexes are still in need of major fab lance fixes.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 00:43:05


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


 SHUPPET wrote:
I actually kind of agree to an extent. Some codexes have a pretty clear cut best style of build, with maybe minor differences here and there. I think GK is one of them, Tau and Eldar are others. I think they share in some is some really bad balanced models in the direction of OP that make it hard to justify taking anything else. Eldar has other playable builds, Tau you can play differently and still compete with as well, but at the end of the day there is a clear cut mono build in the competitive scene. Tyranids have a bit of variation with ground lists being strong as well as flyer spam being popular, CSM is most definitely not a mono build dex, even sisters seems to have no clear cut best build although I'm admittedly not fully up to par with my knowledge on this army.

So while I agree that a lot of armies aren't mono builds, a lot are. But mono build or not, it's a terrible term that gets thrown around to describe different criticism far too often - mono build or not, Zyranid and CSM sexes are still in need of major fab lance fixes.

Sisters and GK both have the problem of lacking in options in general though, they're almost written as an ally-dex, like Militarum Tempestus or Imperial Knights. In this sense, they may not be mono-build, but they don't have a lot of choices in a viable list.

And before someone pounces on me this, of course, is discounting the casual gamer who can take whatever the heck they want in their army without a worry about making a strong list (eg, Chaplain, a couple AA tanks, Scouts and Tac Marines and Tactical Termies in a single list - not bad, but far from a truly viable build).


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 05:51:41


Post by: Jancoran


Andilus Greatsword, have you got access to the codex? Played with Sisters of Battle? I'm always surprised at the way they are dismissed. First of all they are rarely seen in comparison to any other codex, so I suspect the list of well informed people on this subject is not large. So I do make allowance for that fact and know it plays a part in peoples underestimation of that codex. It makes it no less inaccaurate.

To be clear: you can win, and ABSOLUTELY crush people, using just that codex. Not as an ally. Not WITH allies. JUST IT.

Now the GK Codex is the same way: it seems to play on its own. You have to be okay with jarring losses at times with GK and not be one of these poor sport types that throws their hands up in exasperation with every casualty to play them.

The alternative here is to allow the constant escalation, which it seems the internet has resoundingly condemned over the years. Most players DON'T want uber codex's dropping. If you took and made Wave Serpent Shields 18" or 24" inch range and made it STR 6 all the time, the ENTIRE Eldar Codex would be regarded as just another codex! Really, the Serpent Shield is WHY people cry about that codex and they're not totally unjustified in being incredulous about its range and Ignoring cover but think about it honetly. Does the rest of the codex REALLY scare you so much? No. its a NORMAL, potentially Psyker heavy codex that happens to have this one kinda crazy weapon system in it.

More time is needed for me to play and see if I can "live" with the changes and compete with it, but my recent games seem to indicate that it can beat good armies. Dice are dice but overall I was pretty jazzed about my games thus far.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 06:32:22


Post by: SHUPPET


So what you are saying is that you are a power gamer, who doesn't care about the quality or internal balance or variability inside a codex, being just as happy with a codex because it wins games? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

Let me clear one thing up for you. Nobody is complaining that the new GK dex is too weak. The complaint is that it's too bland and instead of gaining any flavour or build versatility, it lost a bunch of units that could have easily been balanced. Or at least replaced with something new.

This is a legit complaint, without even needing to play a single game with the dex to find out. I don't play GK, however, my disappointment in the amount of effort GW put towards this release is not built off my cares for how well it shapes up against OP dexes like Eldar. This is just a bad codex, power level aside for a second. Allying to open up a new style of build should be an OPTION like it is for other dexes.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 06:56:24


Post by: Jancoran


 SHUPPET wrote:
So what you are saying is that you are a power gamer, who doesn't care about the quality or internal balance or variability inside a codex, being just as happy with a codex because it wins games? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

Let me clear one thing up for you. Nobody is complaining that the new GK dex is too weak. The complaint is that it's too bland and instead of gaining any flavour or build versatility, it lost a bunch of units that could have easily been balanced. Or at least replaced with something new.

This is a legit complaint, without even needing to play a single game with the dex to find out. I don't play GK, however, my disappointment in the amount of effort GW put towards this release is not built off my cares for how well it shapes up against OP dexes like Eldar. This is just a bad codex, power level aside for a second. Allying to open up a new style of build should be an OPTION like it is for other dexes.


Let me be clear on one thing for you: People ARE actually complaining that its too weak. ACTUALLY. No idea how you can say otherwise, but uh...

Also, I don't recall anyone saying those "power gamer" things you mention. So no. I guess I...didn't...say that I am any of that? I think what I intimated was: stop underestimating your opponents.

And that you don't play GK means you really...dont... know what its like. Fair to say? So your opinion on it is essentially based on what you read in places like this. it's too new for you to know based on "extensive game experience" against it, now isnt it? I've played them. I own it. Ive played them for a long time WITHOUT the Henchman, Coteaz and the whole lot. So I already KNEW it could be done anyways. And now the Codex is what it probably should have been: Grey Knights.

Reminds me of the smug Blood angel guy I faced in the second round of the Ard Boyz tourney with his 4+ FnP and Corbulo craziness vs. my lowly DaemonHunter codex. He took one look at my Daemon Hunters list back then and laughed. Not figuratively, just flat out laughed and said "Well im really sorry you had to face me". I think he left with a different opinion. Him and his disabled Bhaal predator and one scout. Same goes for those who choose to underestimate other codex's or other peoples lists. Theres just a basic level of respect lacking here. Theres this basic lack of appreciation for actual results because everyone wants to believe things for reasons that sound good instead of good sound reasons! I don't understand it. Do I have to win another 100 games to convince you? Would it even matter if I did?

I may come to agree with you after 20 or so games (we'll see), but for now I find little reason to. They in fact unleash IMMENSE amounts of firepower and Psychic power at a time and its kinda impressive to see. You can play catchup in a hurry with them. Thats what my games have been like: Take it to the face for a round, lose some stuff, grunt and grimace a little, fogre forth and then suddenly its like the fourth of July.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 07:09:08


Post by: SHUPPET


Well fair enough on the first half of post, if people are complaining about GK being at one of the weaker levels of overall dexes, then I agree with you, I just haven't seen that yet. It appears to me that most the criticism is of the size of the dex and the amount of versatility in unit choice, which is well founded, and I need not play the dex personally to know just as well as the most experienced GK player in the world, who I'm sure would agree that this dex is quite bland.

The second half in your post I have no idea how to respond to or how it's relevant to me, I never once said GK is a weak dex or won't win games, I actually think its probably one of the strongest races there is right now. Nor did I say they wouldn't be fun to play. Just that they are very limited in the ways that they CAN be played, in comparison to pretty much every dex in the game.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 09:13:55


Post by: Makumba


The only problem people have with GK here , is that it went from an army out of one codex, to an army that needs 2 or 3 to be played. If GW decided that GK should be played with purfires in drop pods or with a centurion star, then those unit should have been in the codex and not forced people to buy books.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 10:01:12


Post by: nosferatu1001


GW haven't forced you to do anything. Only local players have

The "GK" dex previously was nothing of the sort in 5th - it was boring henchman spam. Yawn.

Now it's actually about GK. And finally assassins are available correctly to other armies. Inquisitors can function without coteaz to get needed troops, etc

From a design standpoint it was all incredibly obvious - the horrible mashup of the old dex has been split to the sensible components, and now each can be explored properly, not hampered by the other.

As a GK player I love the new dex, as if rewards you for..playing GK. Kinda obvious, but that's a good thing

Yes, annoyed at loss of Mordrak, however expect to see him return at some point


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 10:05:39


Post by: SHUPPET


Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 11:11:22


Post by: Makumba


yeah Shuppet. I got more options for my IG, because GW removed specials I actualy used and rised the cost of units I was using, so I can no longer play enough of them to make them work properly. So many options.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 11:40:11


Post by: Accolade


I've seen this in other places in the boards, but I think it's pretty apt here for why people aren't more vocal about the Grey Knights codex-

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference."

The army may function more competitively on the table, and/or it may be more mono-build, or any of the usual issues people have with new releases. But what makes people not care about this release is the awfulness of it was apparent six months ago. With the unit-slashing and parsing-out of content GW has been doing, it was obvious the Grey Knights codex was going to be the same crappy thing.

The only defense people have is "well I wanted a pure GK army". Cool, so you don't mind paying GW more while they give you less-in-return. You are probably the exception. But I would hazard a guess the layman is less interested in continuing an army whose book content was radically decreased. And hence there is no cry out against GK- because there are many less people now who play the army.

Hurray, Pyrrhic victory for the purists!


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 13:17:10


Post by: SHUPPET


Exactly.

People acting as if they couldn't still build a pure GK army if it still had all the models that were removed. Ridiculous thing to be happy about.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 13:51:49


Post by: nosferatu1001


 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 14:51:40


Post by: valace2


I actually quite like the new dex, after 6th dropped I shelved my knights. I used a lot of psyfle dreads and Razorbacks before the coming of hull points, so there was no point in running them into a wall against Necron, Tau, and Eldar.

I won't be bringing those units back, but I do have a couple dreadknights and a couple Storm Ravens that I am itching to get back on the table, but more importantly I am foaming at the mouth to run a Draigo Cent star. Grav Cannons where ever I want them sounds just brutal. They seem like a logical ally for my Imperial Fists, I can also run my cheaper terminators in my Spartan Assault Vehicle.

I have been playing my 30k Adeptus Mechanics lately, but I am going to give them a break and ally up my Fists and Knights.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 17:44:36


Post by: Envihon


valace2 wrote:
I actually quite like the new dex, after 6th dropped I shelved my knights. I used a lot of psyfle dreads and Razorbacks before the coming of hull points, so there was no point in running them into a wall against Necron, Tau, and Eldar.

I won't be bringing those units back, but I do have a couple dreadknights and a couple Storm Ravens that I am itching to get back on the table, but more importantly I am foaming at the mouth to run a Draigo Cent star. Grav Cannons where ever I want them sounds just brutal. They seem like a logical ally for my Imperial Fists, I can also run my cheaper terminators in my Spartan Assault Vehicle.

I have been playing my 30k Adeptus Mechanics lately, but I am going to give them a break and ally up my Fists and Knights.


I can not tell you how awesomely Imperial Fists and Grey Knights compliment each other. Just ran what you are proposing (I can give you my list if you want) and it worked wonderfully. Absolutely loved the way everything works now.

And as for everything else, to me the GK codex was a pretty good update. It trimmed the fat so to speak. Did GW make mistakes to get here? Yeah, they did but they have been showing a willingness to correct them. This constant railing against them is getting tiring. Do the GK have to rely on allies to be competitive? Yes. Do I care? Nope. It let's me run several different elements of my scattered interests in the Warhammer 40k because a contingent of GK running with a bigger force like Space Marines or Imperial Guard is more fluffy than taking Coteaz and an army of Henchman. That isn't GK. Far from it. Now the army runs like the fluff says it does and it is competitive. This satisfies my interest in the game both from a playing the tabletop to my interest in the fluff. That is my opinion and there is nothing that anyone has said against this that is going to change that opinion. I can kind of the complaints but some of these aren't as valid as others. I am also willing to give GW a bit of leeway here because they have been shaping up their act. The last days of 6th was having me considering hanging up the hobby but the release of 7th and everything has me thoroughly enjoying the game again.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 17:49:39


Post by: WrentheFaceless


They're saving all of their energy to complain about this month's Dark Eldar release?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 17:53:16


Post by: MWHistorian


I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 17:55:32


Post by: WrentheFaceless


 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 18:42:30


Post by: Accolade


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?


Is that a counter to his argument or just a dig at him personally?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 18:47:56


Post by: Red Marine


I think peoples complaints about the changes to GKs are based on either not knowing about the GKs fluff or just not caring. THEE only thing that GKs do is fight demons. ONLY. In the old fluff, if your opponent had no demons you COULDNT DEPLOY THEM. Seriously. if the other player didn't put demons on the table you simply lost out on hundreds of points. The idea that they don't do well versus orks or tau is entirely in keeping with the fluff. Also in the fluff is/was the idea that GKs don't play well with others. To keep themselves secret they mind rape or MURDER their allys. Assassins are an entirely separate force. The Ordo Malleus doesn't own the GKs. There close ally's with a similar duty, not bonded together in any real way. And who knows how many Inquisitors or Jr Inquisitors they've murdered to keep themselves more secret than the Dark Angels big secret.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 18:53:18


Post by: MWHistorian


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 19:20:41


Post by: Furyou Miko


When the Inquisition were cut from the Sisters codex, I rejoiced. Finally, we were our own army again, respectable and independent!

The situation is slightly different because Grey Knights have always been tied into the Inquisition rather than having it shoe-horned in, but I think the same kind of feeling can be explored. Welcome to independence, baby codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 19:24:01


Post by: Envihon


 Furyou Miko wrote:
When the Inquisition were cut from the Sisters codex, I rejoiced. Finally, we were our own army again, respectable and independent!

The situation is slightly different because Grey Knights have always been tied into the Inquisition rather than having it shoe-horned in, but I think the same kind of feeling can be explored. Welcome to independence, baby codex.


This is much of the same with the Grey Knights, especially considering both the book fluff and the Black Library fluff. Grey Knights are connected to but not ruled by the Inquisition.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 20:08:05


Post by: WrentheFaceless


 MWHistorian wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.


As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 20:10:09


Post by: MWHistorian


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.


As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

Saying "you're being ripped off" and saying "You're an idiot for enjoying the game" are two different things. People are saying the former, not the latter.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 20:11:35


Post by: WrentheFaceless


 MWHistorian wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.


As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

Saying "you're being ripped off" and saying "You're an idiot for enjoying the game" are two different things. People are saying the former, not the latter.


They're saying the former and implying the latter. Its pretty obvious


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2189/10/05 15:20:34


Post by: MWHistorian


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.


Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.


As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

Saying "you're being ripped off" and saying "You're an idiot for enjoying the game" are two different things. People are saying the former, not the latter.


They're saying the former and implying the latter. Its pretty obvious

I'm saying the former and meaning the former. If someone is implying the latter then they're wrong. No one has a right to tell someone what they can and can't enjoy.
But don't be quick to see offense where none is meant. If someone criticizes 40k, don't take it as a personal attack. I like plenty of stuff that is crap. Like the movie "Pathfinder." Horrible movie but I love it. However, I see that it has problems and don't pretend they don't exist.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 21:03:18


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


 Jancoran wrote:
Andilus Greatsword, have you got access to the codex? Played with Sisters of Battle? I'm always surprised at the way they are dismissed. First of all they are rarely seen in comparison to any other codex, so I suspect the list of well informed people on this subject is not large. So I do make allowance for that fact and know it plays a part in peoples underestimation of that codex. It makes it no less inaccaurate.

To be clear: you can win, and ABSOLUTELY crush people, using just that codex. Not as an ally. Not WITH allies. JUST IT.

Now the GK Codex is the same way: it seems to play on its own. You have to be okay with jarring losses at times with GK and not be one of these poor sport types that throws their hands up in exasperation with every casualty to play them.

The alternative here is to allow the constant escalation, which it seems the internet has resoundingly condemned over the years. Most players DON'T want uber codex's dropping. If you took and made Wave Serpent Shields 18" or 24" inch range and made it STR 6 all the time, the ENTIRE Eldar Codex would be regarded as just another codex! Really, the Serpent Shield is WHY people cry about that codex and they're not totally unjustified in being incredulous about its range and Ignoring cover but think about it honetly. Does the rest of the codex REALLY scare you so much? No. its a NORMAL, potentially Psyker heavy codex that happens to have this one kinda crazy weapon system in it.

More time is needed for me to play and see if I can "live" with the changes and compete with it, but my recent games seem to indicate that it can beat good armies. Dice are dice but overall I was pretty jazzed about my games thus far.

I'll admit I haven't read the GK Codex yet, so I'm more basing info on what I've heard and how some of their more interesting things were removed (Inquisition could totally change a GK list and added whole other dimensions to the list-building process). I'm not so concerned about its strength level as I don't play as or against GK outside of the very rare pickup game, but my point is that their options have been reduced significantly. It's the same sort of problem I have with the Nids codex, although in that case it's more because the options they have are mostly utter trash, leading to mono-builds.

But as for Sisters, I know they're powerful, I actually love their current Codex. I don't understand why everyone says they're lower-tier, it's like they've never seen the rules. However, it never-the-less lacks options just from the physical lack of units that GW has given us to play with. It basically boils down to spamming special weapons, ideally through MSUs in transports imho (in fact, I'm starting a small Sisters force based around this philosophy).


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/15 21:37:39


Post by: Jancoran


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I'll admit I haven't read the GK Codex yet, so I'm more basing info on what I've heard and how some of their more interesting things were removed (Inquisition could totally change a GK list and added whole other dimensions to the list-building process). I'm not so concerned about its strength level as I don't play as or against GK outside of the very rare pickup game, but my point is that their options have been reduced significantly. It's the same sort of problem I have with the Nids codex, although in that case it's more because the options they have are mostly utter trash, leading to mono-builds.

But as for Sisters, I know they're powerful, I actually love their current Codex. I don't understand why everyone says they're lower-tier, it's like they've never seen the rules. However, it never-the-less lacks options just from the physical lack of units that GW has given us to play with. It basically boils down to spamming special weapons, ideally through MSUs in transports imho (in fact, I'm starting a small Sisters force based around this philosophy).


I can agree that the options were numerically reduced, but you can play with the same stuff using the Codex: Inquisition with very little difference in the list. So the book makes more sense being on its own now andf i think that was GW's thought too: we sell more codex: Inquisition by doing it and we make the actual codex ABOUT grey Knights instead of about this Henchman shenanigan. We Hi-lite the things that are Grey Knights and we diminish those that aren't yet the option to include that stuff is still there.

The TO's are slowly realizing that multiple detachments just is the way it's going to be. militarum Tempestus actually kinda started that revolution going but Grey Knights cinched it. 2015 will be the year of the Multiple Detachment forces and I really haven't seen enough compelling abuse, other than flying Daemon Circus lists, to really worry me...and even those lists were pretty much already uber with just allies, so whether it swings the pendulum much is debatable to say the least.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 00:22:32


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Yeah we'll see, it seems to be the philosophy of 40k these days. My group largely does 1 FOC with allies being taken a minority of the time, but as I said, none of us play GK. I'm not sure what point level you'd have to be playing at where more than 1 CAD is really necessary, I usually play around 2k and don't really see much of a need for it - YMMV of course.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 02:55:52


Post by: Envihon


 Jancoran wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I'll admit I haven't read the GK Codex yet, so I'm more basing info on what I've heard and how some of their more interesting things were removed (Inquisition could totally change a GK list and added whole other dimensions to the list-building process). I'm not so concerned about its strength level as I don't play as or against GK outside of the very rare pickup game, but my point is that their options have been reduced significantly. It's the same sort of problem I have with the Nids codex, although in that case it's more because the options they have are mostly utter trash, leading to mono-builds.

But as for Sisters, I know they're powerful, I actually love their current Codex. I don't understand why everyone says they're lower-tier, it's like they've never seen the rules. However, it never-the-less lacks options just from the physical lack of units that GW has given us to play with. It basically boils down to spamming special weapons, ideally through MSUs in transports imho (in fact, I'm starting a small Sisters force based around this philosophy).


I can agree that the options were numerically reduced, but you can play with the same stuff using the Codex: Inquisition with very little difference in the list. So the book makes more sense being on its own now andf i think that was GW's thought too: we sell more codex: Inquisition by doing it and we make the actual codex ABOUT grey Knights instead of about this Henchman shenanigan. We Hi-lite the things that are Grey Knights and we diminish those that aren't yet the option to include that stuff is still there.

The TO's are slowly realizing that multiple detachments just is the way it's going to be. militarum Tempestus actually kinda started that revolution going but Grey Knights cinched it. 2015 will be the year of the Multiple Detachment forces and I really haven't seen enough compelling abuse, other than flying Daemon Circus lists, to really worry me...and even those lists were pretty much already uber with just allies, so whether it swings the pendulum much is debatable to say the least.


I partially blame the Henchman lists for the separation in the first place. What was the point in taking a codex about the GK if you were going to side track that and go for Coteaz and his Henchman anyway? It left a large portion of the codex out so what did GW do, streamline the process by giving separate codices. The GK are no less viable than they were and imo, they are more viable in their current form and I have had great success with making lists for them. GK now have the most cost effective Terminators in game, have an awesome MC, Draigo is back with a vengeance, arguably one of the best ML3 Psykers (Farseer is good but GK Librarian wins in the psychic defense game) in game, Purifiers are still awesome, maybe a bit more awesome because of soul blaze being attached to all the incinerators and cleansing flame and Interceptors are still worth their points. Do I miss psybolts? Yeah but I am kind of thinking it was a point sink anyway with the performance I have been getting out of lately. The thing I miss the most is storm bolters to rear armor and not being as affected by T5 as much but other than that, my army seems to be able to function quite well without it. I miss Mordrak but they gave his power to the entire army so you don't have to take a certain unit to Alpha Strike it. Stream lined the codex to be the Deep Striking army of the game. Did I mention we have soul blaze now?

So I am not upset by this, rather I am happy about it. I remember not to long ago when I would come here and ask what is a good GK list and someone would give me a list that was pure Henchman and Coteaz without a single GK in it. Are people that surprised when they decided to split the codices? And it has been drifting towards this for a while and the writing is on the wall, GW wants to encourage allies where allies should be and giving autonomy to codices where it is appropriate and I like this fluff addition.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 03:45:27


Post by: TheKbob


nosferatu1001 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.


Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 19:46:57


Post by: nosferatu1001


Another strawman. I never mentioned unbound. But hey, you rail against that imaginary argument all you want.

Conceptually the book is superior. It's a GK book about GK. Not a GK book about GK, but mostly Inq and occasionally bad assassins. It means the books are all where they should be. Not mashed together. They're not tied to the fate of each other any longer

I guess it's not for you. Frankly, I could care less. If it's important to you, continue with the fifth ed book. I'll enjoy the change.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 20:33:55


Post by: Envihon


 TheKbob wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.


Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.


Now, to play devil's advocate, ask a Chaos Marines player if they like all the different Chaos and Traitor forces mashed together in one force that gives the flavor of each but doesn't explore either with much depth. If Chaos players were satisfied with this, why do they want separate books for each Chaos god or a book that explores and gives better rules to Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion who work fundamentally different from their Chaos counterparts?

I see this as the same thing, the Sisters and Grey Knights may be apart of the Inquisition but are fundamentally different from the Inquisition and other Imperial forces to warrant their own codices and I will enjoy that fact as well as mix and match with other Imperial books because they are all battle brothers and can act as one force anyway, the individual paying attention is nice and makes each army feel unique though. My one wish is not to have all these forces slammed back into one codex that is the Inquisition but that Chaos is treated the same way and some of their forces who deserve individual attention, get the same treatment.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 20:42:02


Post by: Furyou Miko


 Envihon wrote:
Did I mention we have soul blaze now?


Soul Blaze?! NOOO!!!!!

Welcome to the ranks of the Thousand Sons, now that you have mastered our ultimate power, you must join us... or die.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 21:27:43


Post by: Envihon


 Furyou Miko wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
Did I mention we have soul blaze now?


Soul Blaze?! NOOO!!!!!

Welcome to the ranks of the Thousand Sons, now that you have mastered our ultimate power, you must join us... or die.


NEVER! Ours is a sanctified soul blaze that burns Chaos to their very core! Back vile daemon!


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 22:29:20


Post by: BoomWolf


Now in-players doing blood ravens as a GK/1ksons army.


Back to topic-the reason that less people complain is that the ones who complain the hardest are powegamers about the codex being weak, but given how obviously good the codex is (power level wise), most of them find it hard to excuse complaints.

They don't have a single "glaring error" unit that is just way too good for the price like the eldar WS, but everything in the codex is at the very least solid, if not outright powerful.

Not the most versatile codex out there, but he gets the job done, and honestly-there is not any more INTO the gray knights fluff-wise than what is in the codex. the only way the codex could improve is if they found a way to keep the named characters without making the book silly, and if the had-they would have kept them in the book.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 22:33:13


Post by: SHUPPET


 Envihon wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.


Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.


Now, to play devil's advocate, ask a Chaos Marines player if they like all the different Chaos and Traitor forces mashed together in one force that gives the flavor of each but doesn't explore either with much depth. If Chaos players were satisfied with this, why do they want separate books for each Chaos god or a book that explores and gives better rules to Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion who work fundamentally different from their Chaos counterparts?

I see this as the same thing, the Sisters and Grey Knights may be apart of the Inquisition but are fundamentally different from the Inquisition and other Imperial forces to warrant their own codices and I will enjoy that fact as well as mix and match with other Imperial books because they are all battle brothers and can act as one force anyway, the individual paying attention is nice and makes each army feel unique though. My one wish is not to have all these forces slammed back into one codex that is the Inquisition but that Chaos is treated the same way and some of their forces who deserve individual attention, get the same treatment.


CSM player here, and although the individual flavour and rules could use some work, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them being in the same book. I could see some people maybe wanting codex: death guard etc but that's never going to happen, plus it's less of a money grab this way and allows me more flexibility. It's certainly preferable to the alternative of well, having nothing but one faction to choose from.

Having multiple factions in the one codex is proven to work well, look at this years SM book.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 22:39:52


Post by: nosferatu1001


Chaos could work in one book - 3.5 was horribly, horribly flawed, but gave some legion feel. Unfortunately the same cannot be true of GK+Inq+assassins. Too disparate. Too forced together


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/16 22:47:31


Post by: Envihon


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.


Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.


Now, to play devil's advocate, ask a Chaos Marines player if they like all the different Chaos and Traitor forces mashed together in one force that gives the flavor of each but doesn't explore either with much depth. If Chaos players were satisfied with this, why do they want separate books for each Chaos god or a book that explores and gives better rules to Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion who work fundamentally different from their Chaos counterparts?

I see this as the same thing, the Sisters and Grey Knights may be apart of the Inquisition but are fundamentally different from the Inquisition and other Imperial forces to warrant their own codices and I will enjoy that fact as well as mix and match with other Imperial books because they are all battle brothers and can act as one force anyway, the individual paying attention is nice and makes each army feel unique though. My one wish is not to have all these forces slammed back into one codex that is the Inquisition but that Chaos is treated the same way and some of their forces who deserve individual attention, get the same treatment.


CSM player here, and although the individual flavour and rules could use some work, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them being in the same book. I could see some people maybe wanting codex: death guard etc but that's never going to happen, plus it's less of a money grab this way and allows me more flexibility. It's certainly preferable to the alternative of well, having nothing but one faction to choose from.

Having multiple factions in the one codex is proven to work well, look at this years SM book.


But those are all the SM Chapters that follow the Codex Astartes and get their own Chapter Tactics to give the nuances to the different Chapters but the Chapters that highly deviate from it like the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels (Technically could throw the Grey Knights in there as well), all have their own codices with their own set of unique rules set to that Chapter. Are there CSM that operate roughly the same way? Yes there are but there are others like the Iron Warriors and the Alpha Legion that deviate from this "Chaotic catch-all" that would deserve their own codex. I would also love to see a Codices or even just a supplement devoted to the Four Chaos Gods that would cover both CSM and Daemons.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:16:44


Post by: Super Newb


I can't tell, is anyone here actually claiming that it is a good thing that what was once in one book, is now in three and thus a person who actually enjoyed playing with and using elements from all three (GK/Inq/Assassins) has to now pay $100 for three books to regain what they once had in one (now out of date) book?

Is anyone actually saying this particular point is unreasonable, as in folks shouldn't complain about it?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:25:19


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
I can't tell, is anyone here actually claiming that it is a good thing that what was once in one book, is now in three and thus a person who actually enjoyed playing with and using elements from all three (GK/Inq/Assassins) has to now pay $100 for three books to regain what they once had in one (now out of date) book?

Is anyone actually saying this particular point is unreasonable, as in folks shouldn't complain about it?

Well...yes I also have not spent one cent on the book yet, though I will be getting the GK Codex next month.
This is from a Grey Knight Player not an Inquisition Player. Who occasional added in an Assassin.
To me this is a good book.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:30:03


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
To me this is a good book.


Not money-wise. Half the options are gone and it costs more than before.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:43:49


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
To me this is a good book.


Not money-wise. Half the options are gone and it costs more than before.

It is a better put together book for me.
The Book:
>I don't have to hunt back and forth to find things.
>Every Unit is on one easy to read page .
>I don't have to flip though pages of units that are not Grey Knight Units.
The Army itself
> It is competitive without Henchman Spam.
>There are lots of options if you want for Playing Grey Knight.
>Grey Knight Terminators are worth the price you pay.
For Inquisition Players
>Yes you lost your book...no wait you still have YOUR Inquisition Codex not cluttered with Grey Knights for those who did not play them at all.
>Yes you have to pay a lot to get copies of all of the Caudexes and Data Sheets. I don't have a Apple Device so I cant use them legally anyways.

So I feel it is a better book for Grey Knights, not the Inquisition.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:44:59


Post by: Grey Templar


Thats definitely a bonus. The old codex layouts were confusing, especially if you weren't familiar with a new book yet.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:47:31


Post by: Anpu42


 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats definitely a bonus. The old codex layouts were confusing, especially if you weren't familiar with a new book yet.

I was also looking at my Blood Angels Codex and it told me to reference a page for a weapon and then that page referenced me to a different page.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 00:50:28


Post by: Quickjager


In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more! Then would you kindly give me your money, because for some reason you are laboring under the idea giving away money is a good idea.

Besides... there was that leak of the entire codex on Dakka...


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:04:20


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
To me this is a good book.


Not money-wise. Half the options are gone and it costs more than before.

It is a better put together book for me.



NOT MONEY-WISE THOUGH. There are less options than before and it costs more now. Less options for more money. On this singular point you cannot, no matter how much you strangely try to, you cannot make a real argument against this. It is factually less options for factually more money. That's a straight up fact. No need to even respond to this, we all know it is a straight up fact.

It is also a straight up fact that to keep the options one had the 5th edition book, they must now buy three books, for triple the price of that 5th edition book. This too cannot be argued against. This too is a fact. This too is something you do not need to respond to because it is a blindingly obvious fact that cannot be argued against.

But hey, I'm not the boss around here, so if you want to be absurd and claim you are a fan of less options for more money, or around the same options for a lot more money (triple), then be my guest.





Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:05:33


Post by: Anpu42


Quickjager wrote:
In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

I am not saying the book is better off with the loss of Characters and without new stuff. I am saying it is still a good Codex.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

I thought people wanted less rules.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more!

Yes I [and others] think it is a Good and Balanced Codex, both Internally and Externally. We have two units that are not up there with the rest and those are only on the edge of being "not-so-good" because of their price.
This is what we wanted right?

And yes it is a better GREY KNIGHTS CODEX than DEAMON HUNTERS was at being a Grey Knights Codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:06:20


Post by: Super Newb


Quickjager wrote:
In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more! Then would you kindly give me your money, because for some reason you are laboring under the idea giving away money is a good idea.

Besides... there was that leak of the entire codex on Dakka...


Egads! Someone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid. Praise jeebus, the FSM and the Emperor.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:28:27


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
Egads! Someone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid. Praise jeebus, the FSM and the Emperor.

Drunk the Kool-Aid?
I drank the Kool-Aid because the new Codex lets me take my old 2250 army and make it 2,000 points with improved ability?
If so give me another glass.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:43:31


Post by: BoomWolf


I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:51:17


Post by: Mechanical Crow


 TheKbob wrote:
It could be that many simply just said "No, thanks." to the release. I've seen an uptick if GK armies on swap groups. Many of the personal gaming groups of just friends and acquaintances simply just shelved them or didn't care.

There's something that could be said that hatred and frustration expressions still show a keen interest in the subject. Complete apathy means people are looking elsewhere. The GK book got gutted and killed two of the popular army play styles. I'm hoping many folks were sensible enough to simply say no to such a blatant disregard to the customer.


Yeah it didn't seem to fly off the shelves like other books, I believe it may have a lot to do with the common theme in any relationship with GW, there is passive compliance, neutral hatred, outrage, and silent vacating. The people that leave the hobby generally just ghost. Out of the grey knight players I know only a few keep trying to make them work which seems to boil down to spam warp charge and dread knights (despite being just as squishy as before) while the rest just shelved them.



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:54:07


Post by: Anpu42


 Mechanical Crow wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
It could be that many simply just said "No, thanks." to the release. I've seen an uptick if GK armies on swap groups. Many of the personal gaming groups of just friends and acquaintances simply just shelved them or didn't care.

There's something that could be said that hatred and frustration expressions still show a keen interest in the subject. Complete apathy means people are looking elsewhere. The GK book got gutted and killed two of the popular army play styles. I'm hoping many folks were sensible enough to simply say no to such a blatant disregard to the customer.


Yeah it didn't seem to fly off the shelves like other books, I believe it may have a lot to do with the common theme in any relationship with GW, there is passive compliance, neutral hatred, outrage, and silent vacating. The people that leave the hobby generally just ghost. Out of the grey knight players I know only a few keep trying to make them work which seems to boil down to spam warp charge and dread knights (despite being just as squishy as before) while the rest just shelved them.


I could also be that there are just not a lot of Grey Knight Players or we were still recovering the Space Wolf Release.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:54:39


Post by: Super Newb


 BoomWolf wrote:
I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"


1) I am not saying it's horrible for gameplay. I am saying it is a poor value in real-world dollars. Which is unarguable - compare the cost relative to the content versus the 5th edition book.
2) Your fellow dakkaite Apnu seemed to be doing a contortionist act in order to not admit the book is less of a value than the previous one.
3) "More but lousy"? Please expand on this stunning statement! What was lousy before exactly? So lousy that it needed to be expunged from the book?
4) "Less but better"? So when the next codex is just Draigo and nothing else, an even better version of Draigo than before, you will rejoice. Because who cares if less options, if what is left is better than it was? Lol. Talk about a shoddy, completely fabricated (false) dichotomy. "less but better" versus "more but lousy" my buttocks.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:57:29


Post by: BoomWolf


I find calling dreadknights squishy amusing.

The are T6 with 4W in termi armor. it does not get much tougher than that.


EDIT: answering whatever is relevant

1-apperantly it is arguable, as multiple people argue with you. as I already said more=/=better. if I can have two mecdonadls for 5$ or one good burger (same size as a single mcdonald) for 7$, I'd go for the good one.

2-what someone else is or isn't doing has no connection to me, nor to facts. also this statement is an ad-hominem fallacy anyway, do not use fallacies-it only makes oyu look bad.

3-Psyblot was that lousy. is was a dreadful mechanic and pointless, and could NOT be balanced, it would always boil down to a simple mathematical qustion of when to take it, making it a math quiz, not a decision.
The assassins were that lousy. not only they were not any good, they had no buisness being in that codex. they do not work for the GK. AFAIK they do not even work WITH the GK all that often, given the latter's "we do not exist" behavior and the difficulty getting rid of an assassin after he is used.
The inqusition was that lousy. they are their own organisation, parts of it do not even work WITH the gray knights, let alone have an "always as one" setup (you could not get a non-coteaz inqusitior without getting knights even as allies)

4-Now a strawman combined with a slippery slope fallacies. you are good at making up arguments that appear intelligent to a fool, yet not in having actual content to your points.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 01:59:56


Post by: Super Newb


 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Yeah it didn't seem to fly off the shelves like other books, I believe it may have a lot to do with the common theme in any relationship with GW, there is passive compliance, neutral hatred, outrage, and silent vacating. The people that leave the hobby generally just ghost. Out of the grey knight players I know only a few keep trying to make them work which seems to boil down to spam warp charge and dread knights (despite being just as squishy as before) while the rest just shelved them.


I have not played a 7th edition game with GK / Inquisition yet and I do not have those books yet. Or the Assassins one which I'd also need to approximate some of my old lists. And I am not in any rush to buy them. Why? Not because I can't afford it, I most certainly can. Because I think it is absurd that I need to pay triple what I paid before to get around the same options I had before.

I'll tell you this, when I do get around to playing GK / Inquisition again I am *strongly* considering just going off what's in my noggin (as I already know the changes for all of the units I would field) rather than buy GW's overpriced nonsense. This is the first time I'm even entertaining this idea.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:03:15


Post by: Envihon


Quickjager wrote:
In regards to the book as a whole.

Conceptually *cough* it is a worse book actually, we are being charged more for even less fluff, Modrak? Gone. Thawn? Gone. Stuff added to replace it? Nada, zip, zilch, nothing.

From a Table perspective, it's worse; less units less rules, higher price.

If you argue this is a GOOD codex compared to what we had, which was the same but even more! Then would you kindly give me your money, because for some reason you are laboring under the idea giving away money is a good idea.

Besides... there was that leak of the entire codex on Dakka...


Actually, it expands the fluff quite a bit, detailing the 8 Brotherhoods and their purpose as well as the other aspects of the Chapter itself. Mordrak is still mentioned but it is true, he doesn't get a full page like he used to and Thawn got little in the old codex. So it expanded on other areas and other characters of the codex while removing two.

Functionally, the codex has gotten better and I have gotten a streamlined Codex that I have always wanted without the clutter of the last Codex trying to muscle the Inquisition in. When the prevailing army became Henchman, I was wondering what the point of having a GK codex actually was so when GW did this, I was happy about it. To me, the made actual GK units useful instead of just having Henchman be the only cost effective list. And a lot more people have taken notice to the point that I know a lot of people in my local group are buying the codex to get them as allies because of how viable they are. The new codex has helped me, not hurt me and my games have been pretty awesome with the new rules and mechanics. I think the GK are going to come back in big way.

I feel bad for those who did mix the two armies, but really, those are few and far between. From my perspective you used the 5th edition codex in one of two ways: To play GK with actual GK units despite the over-costed units or you used GK codex to play the Inquisition with Henchman even though the title of the codex was Grey Knights...so when the split happened with the original e-book release of the Inquisition codex, I didn't here many of either party complaining. And really that is the reason why GW split it, how would you feel that the players marginalized most of the Codex to play a small portion of that codex so what do they do, they make it so that it is its own codex. Why are you mad about that? It would seem a simple cause and effect issue here. Instead of buying the full codex for GK to get your Inquisitorial army, you just pay for the e-book and don't have to buy the GK book. Not only that but the Inquisition book has fluff pertaining to just the Inquisition with it's specific characters and nuances.

I just don't understand how people don't see how we got here from people using the Henchman spam to that influenced the separation of the Codices. Not to mention the tactics are fundamentally different tactics between the two Codices with the Inquisition being almost a specialized AM and the GK being the Deep Strike and Psychic specialists of the Imperium. Many would agree that the SoB are better off when not slammed together with the Inquisition as the Witch Hunters so why would you get on the GK being separate? Not only that but the Inquisition feels like the Inquisition now (Especially the way the old allies matrix used to work out since the GK weren't Battle Brothers with anyone, it allowed every Imperial force to take them, like it should be since the Inquisition is the overarching force while the SoB and the GK more specialized.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, quick addendum, the Nemesis Strike Force was the best thing to happen to the GK. Not only does it allow you to take only 1 troop but it highlights the fact that these guys are suppose to be Deep Striking. Teleportation is their biggest asset and the codex is highly geared to this playstyle which only hinders one unit: Purifiers but I have been hearing a lot of good solutions to this so yeah, as a player who loves this mechanic, it is nice to have the codex reward that with a detachment that was geared towards my playstyle.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:08:53


Post by: Yonan


 BoomWolf wrote:
I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"

Those are not the only two options. There is also "more but better" too. When being asked to pay more for a replacement product, expecting this should be a given for any rational consumer.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:13:14


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
I think the point that the "its horrible" camp fail to get is that we do not claim at any point that its better that there is less content, but that the existing content is higher quality, and the end result of "less but better" is superior to "more but lousy"


1) I am not saying it's horrible for gameplay. I am saying it is a poor value in real-world dollars. Which is unarguable - compared the cost relative to the content versus the 5th edition book.
2) Your fellow dakkaite Anpu seemed to be doing a contortionist act in order to not admit the book is less of a value than the previous one.
3) "More but lousy"? Please expand on this stunning statement! What was lousy before exactly? So lousy that it needed to be expunged from the book?
4) "Less but better"? So when the next codex is just Draigo and nothing else, an even better version of Draigo than before, you will rejoice. Because who cares if less options, if what is left is better than it was? Lol. Talk about a shoddy, completely fabricated false dichotomy. "less but better" versus "more but lousy" my buttocks.

I have not been dancing around it. I don't consider it a factor for me. It is also a moot point for me because I cant spend the $100 as I dont have an Apple device so my only choice is to find it on PDF. So it is not an issue for me.
I am also supposed to hate it when it does everything I wanted it to do even though stuff was taken out of it.

Cash Wise: It should have been a $40 book, and I am planning on paying $42 though Amazon Prime.
Content of the Book: I would have loved some new units, the idea of Centurions armed with Psilencers and Psycannons. I did not get it, so there is money saved. Jet Bikes would also have cool, more money saved.
So after my $42 investment I may pick up some more Grey Knight Terminators and Power Armored Grey Knight I am done. So to ME it is a good investment.
My Space Wolves are going to run me another $500 minimum to get what I want and they added more stuff, I was done with them, but now I need a Flyer, at least 3 more Dreads, Logan Claws and more Thunderwolves.
Witch has turn out to be a better investment for me?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:20:51


Post by: BoomWolf


Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

Now, is it worth shelling out your money for a whole new codex? not necessarily if you are just a gamer and does not care much for the books themselves, but lets not deliud ourselves, nearly all of us are using downloaded codices even when we own original ones. especially for armies we do not play.

For a new GK player is much preferable to the old codex. to the veteran? mech, you are not in a rush, and a copule of notes could make up the difference between the books-and that is true for EVERY re-release, of every game of similar nature, not alot changes from edition to edition, its usually mostly just fine tuning-and thats for the best. do you really want a massive change to your army every new codex, especially now that the cycle has been stepped up to over triple to old speed?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:36:58


Post by: Grey Templar


I'd actually say with confidence that this codex is the codex I wanted/hoped the 5th edition codex was going to be. Inquisition crap cut out(and that stuff was crap) and just an update to the dated rules.

I've just had to wait 2 editions and a codex to get it.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:50:06


Post by: Yonan


 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

When said improvement is basically a couple point adjustments that could have been contained in a 1 page FAQ it is nowhere near enough to be called decent, let alone an improvement. 1 page of balance tweaks and a lot of removed content for a higher price.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd actually say with confidence that this codex is the codex I wanted/hoped the 5th edition codex was going to be. Inquisition crap cut out(and that stuff was crap) and just an update to the dated rules.

I've just had to wait 2 editions and a codex to get it.


"The Grey Knights act as the military arm or Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Daemonhunters who form the oldest branch of the virtually omnipotent Inquisition."

The inquisition was totally out of place there hey? And at half the pages of the space marine codex, they just totally bloated the thing.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:57:53


Post by: Accolade


 Yonan wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

When said improvement is basically a couple point adjustments that could have been contained in a 1 page FAQ it is nowhere near enough to be called decent, let alone an improvement. 1 page of balance tweaks and a lot of removed content for a higher price.


Yeah, this is the part I really don't get. It seems (to me at least) that most of the changes for the book are minimal-> re-tinkering of unit costs and such. $50 seems like a hefty price for something that could have been given as a 2-page addendum.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 02:59:46


Post by: Anpu42


 Yonan wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

When said improvement is basically a couple point adjustments that could have been contained in a 1 page FAQ it is nowhere near enough to be called decent, let alone an improvement. 1 page of balance tweaks and a lot of removed content for a higher price.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd actually say with confidence that this codex is the codex I wanted/hoped the 5th edition codex was going to be. Inquisition crap cut out(and that stuff was crap) and just an update to the dated rules.

I've just had to wait 2 editions and a codex to get it.


"The Grey Knights act as the military arm or Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Daemonhunters who form the oldest branch of the virtually omnipotent Inquisition."

The inquisition was totally out of place there hey? And at half the pages of the space marine codex, they just totally bloated the thing.

Yes they could have done that, but it still would have been "Codex: Inquisition, with Grey Knights included." to Codex: Grey Knights.
Now Grey Knights have their own Codex after 20+ Years!
And it is a good one, a little thin on Units, but it is finally Codex: Grey Knight, that is was we were wanting for 3 Decades. This might also be why most of us love our new Codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:01:36


Post by: Grey Templar


While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:10:38


Post by: Yonan


 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:17:18


Post by: Anpu42


Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:17:40


Post by: BoomWolf


How come multiple people keep quoting half of a message, then answering it by something I specifically talked about in the second half without even referring to it is beyond me.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:20:49


Post by: Envihon


 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:22:37


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yes it should tell "us" that you need to get out more. Lol.


The GK dex should've been $15 dollars instead of $50. That way I won't feel like a chump if I ever decide to buy it (and the Inquisition dex and the Assassins dex which I would also need).


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:23:10


Post by: Anpu42


 Envihon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

Yes, I have even thought of giving it my Space Wolf Synergy treatment when I am done with my Space Wolves.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:26:14


Post by: Super Newb


 Envihon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.


But what about all those apathetic folks who are posting? Oh wait, apathetic folks don't really post due to their apathy. Can we say response bias? We could if we wanted to attempt to have even a smidgen of objectivity, but that wouldn't be fun, would it? Nah.

Anyway, I look forward to 6 years from now when Codex: Grey Knight: Draigo drops, consisting only of Draigo. People are gonna love that one model codex for $90 dollars, because Draigo will be so badass in it.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:29:37


Post by: Quickjager


 Envihon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.


I'm doing both, want me to take my wine to that thread as well? I'm also in another thread on how to make the two under performing units in the codex SS and Purgs a more desirable choice, compared to the other units in their slots. This codex has done many things, and people are going to disagree in the direction where it went. GK players will either as I mention suck it up and play the good units they have, because undoubtedly they do have them, or shelve their army to go with another faction that offers more versatility at a lower point cost.

The codex as it stands is overpriced for what players were given originally, less content for more moolah? But it's up to the individual player if its worth the price.

EDIT: Also correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Space Wolf release was CONSIDERABLY better, more models, kept the same units everything was more or less still viable with that new flyer taking the spotlight.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:39:49


Post by: Yonan


 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

You must have missed all the other threads where people were complaining about all the complaints about grey knights. Also you're complaining about us not making off topic comments... really?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:47:39


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.


But what about all those apathetic folks who are posting? Oh wait, apathetic folks don't really post due to their apathy. Can we say response bias? We could if we wanted to attempt to have even a smidgen of objectivity, but that wouldn't be fun, would it? Nah.

Anyway, I look forward to 6 years from now when Codex: Grey Knight: Draigo drops, consisting only of Draigo. People are gonna love that one model codex for $90 dollars, because Draigo will be so badass in it.

No because it will probably be another 20 years and $150. [Sorry I had to get that out]
I think that was a little over-dramatic and absurd.

The new Codex gave us exactly what it promised, Grey Knight and only Grey Knight.
>$50 Price Tag: " No we did not enjoy it, but those of who saw the writing on the wall just sucked it up and moved on. Once the Codex came out we were happy with the product, complained for a day or two and moved on to the new play style.
>The Loss of Material: We lost the Inquisition, those who played Pure Grey Knights have truly not noticed other than there are less units to passed.
Power Level: Our now "Fluffy" Armies are now "Competitive", but not Over Powered.
Mixed Inquisition/Grey Knights Players: We have sympathy, but that can only go so far. I am a Guard Player and I lost big Characters that were the core of my army. Our local Nid and Ork Players lost Characters and units, but they complained for a little bit and then moved on and created new list and adjusted there armies.
It is not the end of the world though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yonan wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

You must have missed all the other threads where people were complaining about all the complaints about grey knights. Also you're complaining about us not making off topic comments... really?

No it was more of an observation and I think it was on topic.
I have been trying to take the positive side of the argument.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:55:47


Post by: Yonan


Ahh k gotcha my bad.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 03:56:39


Post by: Anpu42


 Yonan wrote:
Ahh k gotcha my bad.

No problem.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 04:42:33


Post by: Envihon


Quickjager wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.


Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.


I'm doing both, want me to take my wine to that thread as well? I'm also in another thread on how to make the two under performing units in the codex SS and Purgs a more desirable choice, compared to the other units in their slots. This codex has done many things, and people are going to disagree in the direction where it went. GK players will either as I mention suck it up and play the good units they have, because undoubtedly they do have them, or shelve their army to go with another faction that offers more versatility at a lower point cost.

The codex as it stands is overpriced for what players were given originally, less content for more moolah? But it's up to the individual player if its worth the price.

EDIT: Also correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Space Wolf release was CONSIDERABLY better, more models, kept the same units everything was more or less still viable with that new flyer taking the spotlight.


You see, people complaining about "overpriced codices" is a bit much, mostly because the GW is shifting from paperback to hardbound books which do cost more to produce so we will see an increase no matter what to off set the cost of making the hardbound book, there is no getting away from that unless people are saying that they are not wanting the hardbound books which is another complaint entirely. Again, I like them, the keep better and are made better than the paperback. Regular use tends to get the paperbacks beat up after awhile.

Also, GW wasn't promising anything like new models or anything like that because in terms of an update, GK wasn't that far behind seeing as they were updated at the end of 5th right before 6th came out. This was a quick release to update the GK fully into 7th since they had to do with one of the major changes in 7th regarding the Psychic Phase and the fact that they lost their codex powers in favor of getting their discipline that only they can cast with any regularity and less risk. This wasn't a full update and GW never said it would be, if they did, I could see a lot of these complaints being more valid. They smoothed out the wrinkles that faced the codex since it came out late in 5th and then the rapid change from 6th to 7th. GW did what they said they did and it is a good product that I am satisfied with. It gave me what I wanted and unexpectedly since no one knew about this release until it happened. This wasn't a restructuring or a major overhaul that was needed to bring the army in line with the rest of the game like the SW, just a short jump from 5th to 7th to bring everything into a neat and tidy umbrella.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 05:23:47


Post by: Makumba


How was there no major restructuring done, if coteaz and henchman and assasins and psychic pilot were removed from the books. That is as if sudddenly all IG started to be build around ogryns and saying nothing has changed for the IG.

Also the production cost of hardbound books is not that high for them to cost as much , and let us not forget that before to play GK you needed 1 codex now you need multiple ones to get access to drop pods or gravstar.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 07:01:06


Post by: BrianDavion


Makumba wrote:
How was there no major restructuring done, if coteaz and henchman and assasins and psychic pilot were removed from the books. That is as if sudddenly all IG started to be build around ogryns and saying nothing has changed for the IG.

Also the production cost of hardbound books is not that high for them to cost as much , and let us not forget that before to play GK you needed 1 codex now you need multiple ones to get access to drop pods or gravstar.


keep in mind it's not JUST hardcover books, but it's also Full colour so yes that does bump the price up. I imagien GW's likely trying to increase their profit margins at the same time though. as for weather or not they should have gone hard cover, it's possiable GW felt they had no choice. a lot of the big gaming companies out there are now producting their rule books in hard cover/full colour format.

and the Ogryn comparison is a poor one. because it's "codex: Imperial guard" not "codex: Ogryns" removing cortez and his henchmen is fine to me, because I bought codex: grey knights. not Codex: Cortez.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 08:57:45


Post by: nosferatu1001


 Yonan wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 10:55:14


Post by: Envihon


nosferatu1001 wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.


When did the amount of models become the barometer for how much a codex costed? What about the amount of fluff or other areas that are expaned? GK may not have the Inquisition still with it but the fluff section has gotten bigger and despite having less units than the Eldar codex, it is still thicker than the Eldar codex so it has more content than the Eldar. So yes, less units but more content in terms of other areas in the codex as they distinguish the GK as a force onto their own that the Inquisition sometimes uses. It makes the GK feel like the independent faction like they actually are with their own traditions and uses. The Inquisitorial Codex does the same thing for the Inquisition and fills you in more about what that faction is all about. So why is the amount of units such an importance?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 11:13:40


Post by: SHUPPET


Since people buy codexes for gameplay content not a black library novel.

It's funny because grey knights have probably as many or less playable units than the horrible Nid release. They just don't have as much crap. Codex is still extremely linear and shouldn't be sold as a full price codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 11:24:49


Post by: Jidmah


nosferatu1001 wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.


Don't worry about them nos. They very same people tried to convince me how much of a terrible cashgrab the ork codex was and how it was gutted of options. Once the next release comes around, they'll disappear from all the GK threads as well.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 11:48:41


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


Can I have Mordrak and Thawn back?
Can I also have the option for running an inquisitor/ inquisitorial things without having to pay for a separate book?
Can I take an assassin that isn't a vindicare (when I feel like swapping a strike squad out), without having to buy a separate book?

I think as a 'pure' grey knight player I've lost out. First I'm paying more for the book (hooray things I never really ran got a buff), lost the building blocks of my army (Mordrak, Thawn and psybolt ammo), lost access too the things I might want to try to add variety (inquisitors/ henchmen/ assassins), oh wait... I can BUY a separate book to re-include them. This is okay, it makes my smaller codex and it's even smaller DLCs worth it.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 12:49:48


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:

Anyway, I look forward to 6 years from now when Codex: Grey Knight: Draigo drops, consisting only of Draigo. People are gonna love that one model codex for $90 dollars, because Draigo will be so badass in it.

No because it will probably be another 20 years and $150. [Sorry I had to get that out]
I think that was a little over-dramatic and absurd.


Of course it is absurd. The position of "less but better" in response to the new book lacking value due to lacking so many units and characters from the past book is absurd so I took it to its logically absurd conclusion. I am glad you agree with me that the "less but better" argument is *terrible*.

The apologists here seem to ignore how bad of a value this new book is. It is far less options, for more money. It's really quite comical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind it's not JUST hardcover books, but it's also Full colour so yes that does bump the price up. I imagien GW's likely trying to increase their profit margins at the same time though.


Have you been to a bookstore? Ever? Take a gander at how many color hardcover books are priced at $15 - $20 US. There's tons of them. $50 for a codex with half the options of the last codex is absurd to the extreme even with the hardcover.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 13:11:28


Post by: wuestenfux


OP: And yet, after the first few cries of "there's nothing left!" before the book was released, I've not really read any whine about it. Personally, I quite like the new book.

It was little effort to get the new codex out of the old one.
Just a week for some editing. Not very inspiring.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 19:10:57


Post by: BoomWolf


EVERY argument is silly when you stretch it out to the extreme on the sole purpose of making it silly.
The mere fact you felt the need to do so demonstrates just how much you lack an actual point behind your complaints, and require to make strawman fallacies in order to even be able to respond.


In any case, for those of you that say you pay for the codex for its rules content alone.
Seriously, you guys have no business buying a codex, ever. no matter how vast or impressive it might be.
If all you care about is the rules, they are on the internet, for free, just get battlescribe or the likes.
Why would you even NEED a codex for just a rules section?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 19:39:07


Post by: nosferatu1001


 Jidmah wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.


Don't worry about them nos. They very same people tried to convince me how much of a terrible cashgrab the ork codex was and how it was gutted of options. Once the next release comes around, they'll disappear from all the GK threads as well.

I just would like them to correct at least one blatant untruth. I know the arguments they make have been adequately rebuffed, and they'll likely go quiet again on this point , but it's worth highlighting the lies.

I'm still amazed at how many "have quit 40k" posters still post here. I thought they'd moved on.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 19:46:29


Post by: Super Newb


 BoomWolf wrote:
EVERY argument is silly when you stretch it out to the extreme on the sole purpose of making it silly.
The mere fact you felt the need to do so demonstrates just how much you lack an actual point behind your complaints, and require to make strawman fallacies in order to even be able to respond.


Aw how cute, someone who knows the word strawman but then strangely does not know of the valid tactic of taking an opponent's argument to its logical conclusion to show how bad the argument is. One day, when you are older and wiser, you will learn. Instead of ironically complaining about straw men while also completely mischaracterizing your opponent's argument. Gold star for you lol!


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 20:47:47


Post by: Envihon


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Can I have Mordrak and Thawn back?
Can I also have the option for running an inquisitor/ inquisitorial things without having to pay for a separate book?
Can I take an assassin that isn't a vindicare (when I feel like swapping a strike squad out), without having to buy a separate book?

I think as a 'pure' grey knight player I've lost out. First I'm paying more for the book (hooray things I never really ran got a buff), lost the building blocks of my army (Mordrak, Thawn and psybolt ammo), lost access too the things I might want to try to add variety (inquisitors/ henchmen/ assassins), oh wait... I can BUY a separate book to re-include them. This is okay, it makes my smaller codex and it's even smaller DLCs worth it.



Mordrak's mechanics are still in the game, only now they have been made army wide. Hey, do you want to Alpha Strike your entire army instead of just ONE unit out of the codex? Can't do that in 5th Edition but wait, the new Codex has a way to Alpha Strike everything on Turn 1 as long as it can Deep Strike, so GKSS, Terminators, Paladins, and Nemesis Dreadknights can all Deep Strike Turn 1 with the new Nemesis Strike Force Detachment so that it has expanded to more than just one HQ unit? Oh, and now every single HQ also has access to the exact mechanic that only Mordrak had? So if that was a building block of your entire army, it would seem that this new codex encourages the playstyle that came with Mordrak.

Mordrak was key in my strategy and all my play tests lately, I have been winning because of the Nemesis Strike Force. Terminators are now cheaper so to run a GM, 5 Terminators and Librarian that Deep Strike Turn 1 which was the way to play Mordrak, is still viable and cheaper because unlike the Ghost Knights, I can put a Psycannon on those Terminators. Oh, and the Ghost Knights didn't have access to Psybolts. Your complaint that your "building blocks" have been taken away are unfounded and this codex highly caters to those who liked to Deep Strike and Shunt their armies.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 21:11:44


Post by: nosferatu1001


Super Newb wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
EVERY argument is silly when you stretch it out to the extreme on the sole purpose of making it silly.
The mere fact you felt the need to do so demonstrates just how much you lack an actual point behind your complaints, and require to make strawman fallacies in order to even be able to respond.


Aw how cute, someone who knows the word strawman but then strangely does not know of the valid tactic of taking an opponent's argument to its logical conclusion to show how bad the argument is. One day, when you are older and wiser, you will learn. Instead of ironically complaining about straw men while also completely mischaracterizing your opponent's argument. Gold star for you lol!

Actually it's called a slippery slope fallacy, because it is, indeed, a fallacy.hile it doesn't invalidate an argument, it doesn't lend much weight.

Reported for rule one for your older and wiser snark.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 21:42:28


Post by: Super Newb


Environ, it's not the exact same mechanic. Mordrak always came down turn 1 with no scatter. No one can do that now, well an hq can if you get the right warlord trait but that's it.

Anyway, the Nemisis Strike Force detachment is great, I agree with you there. Running and shooting after deep striking is very nice and of course so is coming down on turn 1 on a 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
EVERY argument is silly when you stretch it out to the extreme on the sole purpose of making it silly.
The mere fact you felt the need to do so demonstrates just how much you lack an actual point behind your complaints, and require to make strawman fallacies in order to even be able to respond.


Aw how cute, someone who knows the word strawman but then strangely does not know of the valid tactic of taking an opponent's argument to its logical conclusion to show how bad the argument is. One day, when you are older and wiser, you will learn. Instead of ironically complaining about straw men while also completely mischaracterizing your opponent's argument. Gold star for you lol!

Actually it's called a slippery slope fallacy, because it is, indeed, a fallacy.hile it doesn't invalidate an argument, it doesn't lend much weight.

Reported for rule one for your older and wiser snark.


It isn't a slippery slope. It is using the exact same logic applied to a different hypothetical set of facts. His logic equally supports codex Draigo.

My 'snark' is warranted... *snip* Snark isn't warranted on Dakka. Ever. --Janthkin


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 22:11:15


Post by: BoomWolf


Also, saying "older and wiser" to a university student of engineering is REALLY not buying you any points in me taking you seriously.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 23:21:21


Post by: Envihon


Super Newb wrote:
Environ, it's not the exact same mechanic. Mordrak always came down turn 1 with no scatter. No one can do that now, well an hq can if you get the right warlord trait but that's it.

Anyway, the Nemisis Strike Force detachment is great, I agree with you there. Running and shooting after deep striking is very nice and of course so is coming down on turn 1 on a 3+.


To give Mordrak's rules to everyone in the army would be overpowered compared to the rest of the game, it would be that the GK players could just put everything where they like without consequence and just give them auto-win tactics so those measures were put in place to balance it out but still, being able to Deep Strike Turn 1 is a huge advantage and if you work a Comms Relay and then go second leaving your entire army off the board, you just basically denied your opponent a turn. Still a risky move but it is still there. The Nemesis Strike Force Detachment and the Warlord trait more than make up for the loss of Mordrak because Mordrak and his Ghost Knights were only one unit with capabilities that are basically army wide. That is huge and in the games I have played it has made the difference. People who used GK as Deep Striking and Shunters should be seeing their playstyle rewarded with this codex which is why I like it so much.

I digress though, let us look at how we got here. At the end of 5th, GK were ruling the game, placing high in the Tournament scene and it really didn't seem like it was going to change, until the changes in 6th happened. With this we saw the fall from grace of the GK especially in the tournament scene now that Draigowing was a lost strategy to the rules of 6th. This lead to two major flaws to appear for the GK, lack of mobility and lack of anti-armor but the GK weren't without their tricks and several ways to get around this became apparent. Running Rhinos and Psybacks became popular especially with Purifier spam armies as well as exploiting the Deep Striking and Shunting mechanics so we saw armies rise that used Shunting DKs and Interceptors with one specific unit at its head, Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. Anti-armor could be solved with psybolted autocannon dreadnoughts or using those DKs to punch things. (I sometimes used Eldar to solve my mobility problems since I didn't trust Rhinos after having bad experiences with them but this was after the Eldar release) Still, anti-armor was the biggest problem but there was one place that all these previous problems could be solved: Coteaz and his Henchman. Not only was Coteaz cheap for what he brought but he also turned an elite unit into a troop unit. This lead to more and more people just dropping the GK out of the list completely in favor of taking nothing but Henchman and ignoring most of the book. GW took notice and eventually came up with the supplemental Inquisition Codex allowing not only for all Imperial forces to take an Inquisitor but now you could have the Henchman army that you wanted as well as have it be your own Inquisitor if you didn't feel like taking Coteaz, plus let's face it, an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Psycannon was pretty awesome. This is what would lead to the eventual split and I was waiting for a FAQ to come out making the Inquisition part of the GK obsolete and forcing people to buy the Inquisition codex if they wanted to have Inquisitors and their Henchman in their armies but that never happened and mostly because 7th would drop to yet again change things. Another sign GW had big plans to change the way the GK and the Inquisitors operated was the fact that only GK units could use Sanctic with only Periling on double 6s instead of all doubles. The Inquisition still has it FAQ included with the GK Codex though so it was bound to go either way until the unexpected announcement of the release of a new GK codex that would bring the GK into 7th properly. And that is how we arrived to this point. The official removal of the Inquisition out of the GK codex and a Codex devoted solely to the GKs eliminating any chance of using the GK codex for Inquisition forces.

Looking at it this way, the split was a long time coming after the ending of 5th and the emergence of those separate strategies. It was at that time that it looks like GW realized the flaw in the 5th edition codex and they sought to fix it by not only giving the Inquisition players their own codex but also started to work on ways of restoring a viable GK codex that actually makes their codex useful to use the GK. People did mix the two but with how expensive the units were, you had to go one way or the other either with one of the pure GK armies or the Henchman army to get the full effect. I was told many times to keep what I liked or keep the Dreadknights and go full Henchman, that was the advice all over Dakka at the time. Take a small piece of this kind-of useful GK unit and fill the rest of the points with cheap Inquisitorial Henchman. That didn't feel like GK to me, that felt like the Inquisition but I trudged on trying to come up with pure GK solutions with minimal Inquisition which is why I eventually with Mordrak and shunting units. It was the most effective at the time, not tournament worthy but able to hold it's own in casual games so I grew satisfied but hungered to get a pretty good tournament level army so I started experimenting with allies anyway. It was obvious back then that the anti-armor was huge chink in the GK strategy so I used Henchman, I used Fire Dragons and I used Space Marines which is the strategy I would later keep. Then 7th edition hits and I see my GK army get a bit better, still not up there but better especially with GK being able to dominate in the Psychic Phase and then this unexpected Codex release out of no where right when I was getting comfortable in 7th. At first, I freaked out too, loss of Psybolts and Mordrak with Psycannons going Salvo made me almost loose my crap too, that they ruined my army but I bought my Codex anyway. I got through 6th and I would get through this too because I like the GK a lot. I started to toy around with everything and with the new points restructuring, the inclusion of the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment and I saw the light and got excited to play test. When I did I was decently surprised to see the GK functioning like they were suppose to with my play style being rewarded by the Codex this time. Honestly, the only time I really have missed Psybolts is on T5 and above opponents, other than that, the army functions well. Albeit, there is still an anti-armor gap but it can be remedied with a few creative ways.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/17 23:51:22


Post by: Anpu42


 Envihon wrote:

To give Mordrak's rules to everyone in the army would be overpowered compared to the rest of the game, it would be that the GK players could just put everything where they like without consequence and just give them auto-win tactics so those measures were put in place to balance it out but still, being able to Deep Strike Turn 1 is a huge advantage and if you work a Comms Relay and then go second leaving your entire army off the board, you just basically denied your opponent a turn. Still a risky move but it is still there. The Nemesis Strike Force Detachment and the Warlord trait more than make up for the loss of Mordrak because Mordrak and his Ghost Knights were only one unit with capabilities that are basically army wide. That is huge and in the games I have played it has made the difference. People who used GK as Deep Striking and Shunters should be seeing their playstyle rewarded with this codex which is why I like it so much.

I digress though, let us look at how we got here. At the end of 5th, GK were ruling the game, placing high in the Tournament scene and it really didn't seem like it was going to change, until the changes in 6th happened. With this we saw the fall from grace of the GK especially in the tournament scene now that Draigowing was a lost strategy to the rules of 6th. This lead to two major flaws to appear for the GK, lack of mobility and lack of anti-armor but the GK weren't without their tricks and several ways to get around this became apparent. Running Rhinos and Psybacks became popular especially with Purifier spam armies as well as exploiting the Deep Striking and Shunting mechanics so we saw armies rise that used Shunting DKs and Interceptors with one specific unit at its head, Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. Anti-armor could be solved with psybolted autocannon dreadnoughts or using those DKs to punch things. (I sometimes used Eldar to solve my mobility problems since I didn't trust Rhinos after having bad experiences with them but this was after the Eldar release) Still, anti-armor was the biggest problem but there was one place that all these previous problems could be solved: Coteaz and his Henchman. Not only was Coteaz cheap for what he brought but he also turned an elite unit into a troop unit. This lead to more and more people just dropping the GK out of the list completely in favor of taking nothing but Henchman and ignoring most of the book. GW took notice and eventually came up with the supplemental Inquisition Codex allowing not only for all Imperial forces to take an Inquisitor but now you could have the Henchman army that you wanted as well as have it be your own Inquisitor if you didn't feel like taking Coteaz, plus let's face it, an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Psycannon was pretty awesome. This is what would lead to the eventual split and I was waiting for a FAQ to come out making the Inquisition part of the GK obsolete and forcing people to buy the Inquisition codex if they wanted to have Inquisitors and their Henchman in their armies but that never happened and mostly because 7th would drop to yet again change things. Another sign GW had big plans to change the way the GK and the Inquisitors operated was the fact that only GK units could use Sanctic with only Periling on double 6s instead of all doubles. The Inquisition still has it FAQ included with the GK Codex though so it was bound to go either way until the unexpected announcement of the release of a new GK codex that would bring the GK into 7th properly. And that is how we arrived to this point. The official removal of the Inquisition out of the GK codex and a Codex devoted solely to the GKs eliminating any chance of using the GK codex for Inquisition forces.

Looking at it this way, the split was a long time coming after the ending of 5th and the emergence of those separate strategies. It was at that time that it looks like GW realized the flaw in the 5th edition codex and they sought to fix it by not only giving the Inquisition players their own codex but also started to work on ways of restoring a viable GK codex that actually makes their codex useful to use the GK. People did mix the two but with how expensive the units were, you had to go one way or the other either with one of the pure GK armies or the Henchman army to get the full effect. I was told many times to keep what I liked or keep the Dreadknights and go full Henchman, that was the advice all over Dakka at the time. Take a small piece of this kind-of useful GK unit and fill the rest of the points with cheap Inquisitorial Henchman. That didn't feel like GK to me, that felt like the Inquisition but I trudged on trying to come up with pure GK solutions with minimal Inquisition which is why I eventually with Mordrak and shunting units. It was the most effective at the time, not tournament worthy but able to hold it's own in casual games so I grew satisfied but hungered to get a pretty good tournament level army so I started experimenting with allies anyway. It was obvious back then that the anti-armor was huge chink in the GK strategy so I used Henchman, I used Fire Dragons and I used Space Marines which is the strategy I would later keep. Then 7th edition hits and I see my GK army get a bit better, still not up there but better especially with GK being able to dominate in the Psychic Phase and then this unexpected Codex release out of no where right when I was getting comfortable in 7th. At first, I freaked out too, loss of Psybolts and Mordrak with Psycannons going Salvo made me almost loose my crap too, that they ruined my army but I bought my Codex anyway. I got through 6th and I would get through this too because I like the GK a lot. I started to toy around with everything and with the new points restructuring, the inclusion of the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment and I saw the light and got excited to play test. When I did I was decently surprised to see the GK functioning like they were suppose to with my play style being rewarded by the Codex this time. Honestly, the only time I really have missed Psybolts is on T5 and above opponents, other than that, the army functions well. Albeit, there is still an anti-armor gap but it can be remedied with a few creative ways.

^This


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 01:57:08


Post by: SHUPPET


 BoomWolf wrote:



In any case, for those of you that say you pay for the codex for its rules content alone.
Seriously, you guys have no business buying a codex, ever. no matter how vast or impressive it might be.
If all you care about is the rules, they are on the internet, for free, just get battlescribe or the likes.
Why would you even NEED a codex for just a rules section?

Well for starters people care differing levels about the lore, and no matter what level, they still need a codex to play the game. I know plenty of people who are invested in this game to the point of having multiple armies who don't know and in some cases don't particularly care to listen to anything revolving around the fluff, instead just enjoying the strategy game aspect of the largest tabletop strategy game in the world. Remember, not everyone's hobby is the same as yours.

That being said, i have yet to see a post like this in this thread. Your average person obviously appreciates good fluff in a codex, but you can get good fluff any number of novels and there is plenty of online lore encyclopaedia/depositories that work just as well as the dex or better, while the same can't be said vice versa for army rules, they are in the codex alone. Stop being ridiculous, the primary motivation for every PLAYER who buys a dex is the rules. Using a large fluff section to excuse poorly written/lack of gameplay rules for the army makes my head hurt.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 02:38:42


Post by: Envihon


 SHUPPET wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:



In any case, for those of you that say you pay for the codex for its rules content alone.
Seriously, you guys have no business buying a codex, ever. no matter how vast or impressive it might be.
If all you care about is the rules, they are on the internet, for free, just get battlescribe or the likes.
Why would you even NEED a codex for just a rules section?

Well for starters people care differing levels about the lore, and no matter what level, they still need a codex to play the game. I know plenty of people who are invested in this game to the point of having multiple armies who don't know and in some cases don't particularly care to listen to anything revolving around the fluff, instead just enjoying the strategy game aspect of the largest tabletop strategy game in the world. Remember, not everyone's hobby is the same as yours.

That being said, i have yet to see a post like this in this thread. Your average person obviously appreciates good fluff in a codex, but you can get good fluff any number of novels and there is plenty of online lore encyclopaedia/depositories that work just as well as the dex or better, while the same can't be said vice versa for army rules, they are in the codex alone. Stop being ridiculous, the primary motivation for every PLAYER who buys a dex is the rules. Using a large fluff section to excuse poorly written/lack of gameplay rules for the army makes my head hurt.


There are people who just buy the Codices for the fluff and see the Codices as the final word on the fluff when it disagrees (and it happens quite frequently) with the things that Black Library produces so the Codices are seen as the source books for all the fluff. This makes them especially important to those who like to read about the word, otherwise people wouldn't of been so up in arms about the Bloodtide incident, which got ret-conned in this edition or that Draigo was a mary sue, also ret-conned in this edition. I know people who buy the Codices and they don't even play because they like to read them. To discount the fluff that is within a codex is to be missing half the worth of the Codex in the first place otherwise they would of do what they did with the Core Rulebook and split everything up but the Codices are split up and the fluff is still in there contributing to worth of the Codex itself and should not be discounted. The fluff and everything that goes into the codex adds value to it whether you acknowledge it or not, the rules are just a part of Codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 03:25:07


Post by: Accolade


 Envihon wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:



In any case, for those of you that say you pay for the codex for its rules content alone.
Seriously, you guys have no business buying a codex, ever. no matter how vast or impressive it might be.
If all you care about is the rules, they are on the internet, for free, just get battlescribe or the likes.
Why would you even NEED a codex for just a rules section?

Well for starters people care differing levels about the lore, and no matter what level, they still need a codex to play the game. I know plenty of people who are invested in this game to the point of having multiple armies who don't know and in some cases don't particularly care to listen to anything revolving around the fluff, instead just enjoying the strategy game aspect of the largest tabletop strategy game in the world. Remember, not everyone's hobby is the same as yours.

That being said, i have yet to see a post like this in this thread. Your average person obviously appreciates good fluff in a codex, but you can get good fluff any number of novels and there is plenty of online lore encyclopaedia/depositories that work just as well as the dex or better, while the same can't be said vice versa for army rules, they are in the codex alone. Stop being ridiculous, the primary motivation for every PLAYER who buys a dex is the rules. Using a large fluff section to excuse poorly written/lack of gameplay rules for the army makes my head hurt.


There are people who just buy the Codices for the fluff and see the Codices as the final word on the fluff when it disagrees (and it happens quite frequently) with the things that Black Library produces so the Codices are seen as the source books for all the fluff. This makes them especially important to those who like to read about the word, otherwise people wouldn't of been so up in arms about the Bloodtide incident, which got ret-conned in this edition or that Draigo was a mary sue, also ret-conned in this edition. I know people who buy the Codices and they don't even play because they like to read them. To discount the fluff that is within a codex is to be missing half the worth of the Codex in the first place otherwise they would of do what they did with the Core Rulebook and split everything up but the Codices are split up and the fluff is still in there contributing to worth of the Codex itself and should not be discounted. The fluff and everything that goes into the codex adds value to it whether you acknowledge it or not, the rules are just a part of Codex.


I suppose I'm more like to discount fluff value in equating the cost of the books based on the fact that a significant portion of it is regurgitated from previous books. Unless I'm missing something and the new book has a lot? (genuine question, not being snarky)

As SHUPPET was saying, the codex serves a necessary "subscription" renewal for continuing an army. I've seen some posts suggesting you can get the rules off the internet as a work-around, but I'm not sure if they're suggesting stealing the rules or just using rules from older books (and judging off another thread about using the old GK codex, that idea doesn't seem popular). I just feel there is a tendency to give GW a *lot* of slack on the costs of these new books. "Well, it's hardback/color" -> those have been shown to not be as significant contributors to cost as suggested. And I think it's fair to say there isn't really much rules development that goes into the codexes these days (certainly not compared to the earlier books), so there's not a lot of cost there. Then with dataslates for assassins coming up at $20, I can't see anyone making a solid argument for why those should be so expensive- is it a privilege thing? Do we want to keep the casual peasants from enjoying the game and therefore don't care how much the rules are if it excludes the yokels?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 03:44:01


Post by: SHUPPET


However, nobody is discounting the fluff.

Yet even if they were, it would be their personal opinion and would be well within reason to complain about a lackluster collection of units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On top of that, even if it does have plenty of fluff, that just puts it on par with every other codex. While it still lacks is in the units department, so lets stop skirting the real issue here.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 10:31:03


Post by: nosferatu1001


Yes, the real issue is that a fair number of people are much happier with the new codex, can understand the reasons for splitting them up (and I also know, for a fact, that I am correct in the reason- I can't prove it to random internet people, but I am happy with my info) and appreciate having a grey knight codex for the grist time. Not coteaz and friends.

Can any of the doom and gloomers explain how you played no-GK, no - coteaz in 5th?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 10:53:16


Post by: Envihon


Even if you want to side skirt the issue of the bulk of a codex being fluff with the unit sections being the smallest part of a codex, no one has addressed those points I brought up in that long post above this one where looking at how we got here and how everyone was surprised by this when it could be seen a mile away once people just started taking Inquisition units out of the GK codex without taking GK and how really, the split is our fault because of using the codex in that way.

Also, how many people here have actually play tested the new rules for the army? Really dug into the codex and not just sat there saying this sucks because things I like were taken out? My play testing has a stark difference to the "this codex sucks" to this is an awesome codex where all the rules work in concert for an awesome strategy and we may actually see GK return to the tournament scene, maybe not any pure GK but definitely GK with allies or another army with GK allies. To me that is enough if GK return to tournaments even as just allies because it shows that they added enough mechanics and made the units more efficient that it becomes competitive. Right now, that is looking like it is the case which is just another reason why I am satisfied with this codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 11:15:03


Post by: Apple fox


My grey knights army has become impossible to field in the way I like it, being forced to change for 80$ not realy a great news.

They could have done change in a way not to be such a hassle, making me want to update.
In the end I don't realy care that much.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 14:05:18


Post by: agnosto


After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 17:14:47


Post by: Envihon


 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


Are they normal GKSS or Interceptors?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 18:43:01


Post by: nosferatu1001


Apple fox wrote:
My grey knights army has become impossible to field in the way I like it, being forced to change for 80$ not realy a great news.

They could have done change in a way not to be such a hassle, making me want to update.
In the end I don't realy care that much.

Then don't update. Keep the fifth ed codex. GW are not forcing you to change.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 20:17:59


Post by: Furyou Miko


 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


How has the codex impacted PAGKs against Termies? Just the increase on special weapon prices?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 20:22:20


Post by: Envihon


 Furyou Miko wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


How has the codex impacted PAGKs against Termies? Just the increase on special weapon prices?


People heralding how great Terminators are is maybe making people think that is the only way to field GK when it's really not. PAGKs got better, with GKSS probably better if they go with Incinerators vs. Psycannons. I think Interceptors can stick to using the Psycannon because they can keep the Salvo range. Incinerators are still really good though S6 and they have Soul Blaze. Furyou Mike has it, it really shouldn't of affected your PAGK. Unless you face a lot of AP3 in your local gaming group.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 20:23:15


Post by: WrentheFaceless


 Furyou Miko wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


How has the codex impacted PAGKs against Termies? Just the increase on special weapon prices?


Probably a combination of Terminator point reduction, and Psycannon going to Salvo. Salvo Psycannons hurt PAGK's


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 20:55:17


Post by: Furyou Miko


 Envihon wrote:

Incinerators are still really good though S6 and they have Soul Blaze. Furyou Mike has it,


It's Miko.

Soul Blaze really isn't worth writing home about though.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 21:12:25


Post by: agnosto


 Envihon wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


Are they normal GKSS or Interceptors?


They're regular. I've got 40 PAGKs that I used to use as a ground-pound force. The change to salvo on psycannons has really put me off the whole army now. 24" salvo....yeah. Now my psyfleman dreads are near worthless IMO (amazing how one pt of S makes such a difference). Psibolt ammo in general being gone was a big blow to me and IMO compensated for the lack of range on all weapons in the army.

I ran a straight GK force without the cheesy internet gimmicks or special characters so my units are all kitted wrong to fit the new play style and I'm not investing in bits and tearing painted models apart to tack on incinerators and personal teleporters.

I have 10 terminators; not nearly enough to run an effective deep-striking force which seems to be the new play-style.

I face a lot of AP3/2 against my regular opponent, a CSM, heavy Nurgle player.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 21:39:02


Post by: Envihon


 Furyou Miko wrote:
 Envihon wrote:

Incinerators are still really good though S6 and they have Soul Blaze. Furyou Mike has it,


It's Miko.

Soul Blaze really isn't worth writing home about though.


Sorry it was an autocorrect that I didn't catch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 agnosto wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


Are they normal GKSS or Interceptors?


They're regular. I've got 40 PAGKs that I used to use as a ground-pound force. The change to salvo on psycannons has really put me off the whole army now. 24" salvo....yeah. Now my psyfleman dreads are near worthless IMO (amazing how one pt of S makes such a difference). Psibolt ammo in general being gone was a big blow to me and IMO compensated for the lack of range on all weapons in the army.

I ran a straight GK force without the cheesy internet gimmicks or special characters so my units are all kitted wrong to fit the new play style and I'm not investing in bits and tearing painted models apart to tack on incinerators and personal teleporters.

I have 10 terminators; not nearly enough to run an effective deep-striking force which seems to be the new play-style.

I face a lot of AP3/2 against my regular opponent, a CSM, heavy Nurgle player.


10 Terminators is really all you need. I only field about 5-10 terminators at a time. And you could deep strike all those PAGKs in during the first turn to be within Incinerator range or 12" with Psycannons. I do it all the time and it has become easier to do this in the new codex.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 21:41:14


Post by: Anpu42


 agnosto wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
After a couple of games, I've decided to shelve my GKs. I'm heavy PAGKs and the new dreadknights with terminator friends thing turns me off.


Are they normal GKSS or Interceptors?


They're regular. I've got 40 PAGKs that I used to use as a ground-pound force. The change to salvo on psycannons has really put me off the whole army now. 24" salvo....yeah. Now my psyfleman dreads are near worthless IMO (amazing how one pt of S makes such a difference). Psibolt ammo in general being gone was a big blow to me and IMO compensated for the lack of range on all weapons in the army.

I ran a straight GK force without the cheesy internet gimmicks or special characters so my units are all kitted wrong to fit the new play style and I'm not investing in bits and tearing painted models apart to tack on incinerators and personal teleporters.

I have 10 terminators; not nearly enough to run an effective deep-striking force which seems to be the new play-style.

I face a lot of AP3/2 against my regular opponent, a CSM, heavy Nurgle player.

Actually the PAGK are good even with the Psycannon going to Salvo. What they truly lost was 12" of range if you moved and it is no long an Assault Weapon, that is about it.
It is just the Terminators are so cheap compared they make them look bad.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 22:17:01


Post by: BoomWolf


I'm sorry, but did you seriously said psyfledreads and PAGK psycannon spam and "without internet gimmicks" in a single breath?
These are like, the definition of gimmick GK in the old codex, along with coteaz.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 22:25:55


Post by: agnosto


I don't know. Its not like I can give them plasma and melta or other special/heavy weapons. It was psycannon or spilencers and since my regular opponent plays daemons as well, psilencers weren't a fun choice. It's the same reason I never used warp rift as a psychic power since he plays nurgle. I never use special characters and the psyflemen were my only anti tank since I don't usually take a dreadknight.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 22:41:18


Post by: Anpu42


 agnosto wrote:
I don't know. Its not like I can give them plasma and melta or other special/heavy weapons. It was psycannon or spilencers and since my regular opponent plays daemons as well, psilencers weren't a fun choice. It's the same reason I never used warp rift as a psychic power since he plays nurgle. I never use special characters and the psyflemen were my only anti tank since I don't usually take a dreadknight.

So with your self imposed limitation you are going to have to change your play style.
The Strike Squads might have to become more static.
The Rifleman Dreads, well you might need to ally to get cheaper ones or just use them to increase the Warp Charges available to them. That or use them as "Count As" what I call True Rifleman, Twin-Linked Auto-Cannon and Twin-Linked Las-Cannon. As they are Rifleman Dreads are still as affective vs. T5 or less as before and you can't ID T4. You can't Glance AV14, but there is not a lot out there, so I am not seeing that drastic of a reduction of firepower especially if you tack on the Las-Cannon.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/18 22:48:45


Post by: agnosto


Oh, I'm sure that I'll come back to them eventually but I'm just off of them for now; I'm not feeling any of the excitement that I felt when Tau were updated.

I'm only posting because people were talking about the silently apathetic.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/19 08:20:29


Post by: jeffersonian000


I love this new codex. With it, I can play the exact sane way I've been playing my GK army since 5th. Pre-5th, it was Water Warror. Post-5th, it was Ghostwing, followed by Shuntwing in 6th. 7th? I swap out Mordrak and his Ghostly Bodyguard for Draigo and more Interceptors. And best part? I don't have to buy a single new model.

SJ


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/19 10:40:19


Post by: Envihon


 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I love this new codex. With it, I can play the exact sane way I've been playing my GK army since 5th. Pre-5th, it was Water Warror. Post-5th, it was Ghostwing, followed by Shuntwing in 6th. 7th? I swap out Mordrak and his Ghostly Bodyguard for Draigo and more Interceptors. And best part? I don't have to buy a single new model.

SJ


This is exactly what happened to me but what made me happier is that I could bring out all those Terminators that I had shelved that I never though I would use again except the 5 I was painting to be Mordrak's Ghost Knights. I am kind of glad, I never got around to painting them and now I get to use all my Terminators again.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/19 22:00:22


Post by: Anpu42


Ok, I have been working on my Space Wolf Synergy thread.
I was working on Allies.
How do you create a legal Inquisition List without Troops?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/19 22:32:33


Post by: Jancoran


Inquisitors require no troops in the Codex: Inquisition. so if you wanted and had unlimited Detachments you could take all the inquisitors you'd ever want.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/19 22:38:12


Post by: Anpu42


 Jancoran wrote:
Inquisitors require no troops in the Codex: Inquisition. so if you wanted and had unlimited Detachments you could take all the inquisitors you'd ever want.

So how do you fill your required Troops for an CAD or Allied Detachment or do you just have to go Unbound?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/19 23:40:29


Post by: nosferatu1001


 Anpu42 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Inquisitors require no troops in the Codex: Inquisition. so if you wanted and had unlimited Detachments you could take all the inquisitors you'd ever want.

So how do you fill your required Troops for an CAD or Allied Detachment or do you just have to go Unbound?

You aren't getting 7th ed yet. Inquisition have their own detachment, with only 1 hq required. You can have an army of nothing but inquisitors if you want, fully bound.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/20 06:06:48


Post by: Anpu42


nosferatu1001 wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Inquisitors require no troops in the Codex: Inquisition. so if you wanted and had unlimited Detachments you could take all the inquisitors you'd ever want.

So how do you fill your required Troops for an CAD or Allied Detachment or do you just have to go Unbound?

You aren't getting 7th ed yet. Inquisition have their own detachment, with only 1 hq required. You can have an army of nothing but inquisitors if you want, fully bound.

So I got just let AB whine at me, great.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/20 17:33:24


Post by: Jancoran


I spose so, yeah. Army Builder gets things wrong. Points on eldar Wave serpents for example are wrong. Watch that with opponents. Easy to tell who used army builder cause they are off on some of the wargear for them. Army builder will likely need a new edition for it to handle the unlimited options of 7E.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 00:55:12


Post by: Super Newb


So is this a proper analogy?

Codex: Space Marines is updated. Today (hypothetically obviously). And it turns out only Ultramarines are in the new codex. People complain about the loss of value in the book, as it doesn't have other chapters. Other people poo poo that and say things like "ah, I didn't need that other junk anyway, this ultramarine stuff is better, which is all I care about!"

That's pretty much what happened to the GK codex, but worse, as it wasn't just chapter tactics and a few HQs lost, but a bunch of other units as well.




Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 01:10:28


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
So is this a proper analogy?

Codex: Space Marines is updated. Today (hypothetically obviously). And it turns out only Ultramarines are in the new codex. People complain about the loss of value in the book, as it doesn't have other chapters. Other people poo poo that and say things like "ah, I didn't need that other junk anyway, this ultramarine stuff is better, which is all I care about!"

That's pretty much what happened to the GK codex, but worse, as it wasn't just chapter tactics and a few HQs lost, but a bunch of other units as well.



If they played Ultra-Marines, they would have no problems with it.

What are not seeing is that those who already have the Inquisition Codex [or got a PDF of it] or Played Pure Grey Knights don't see what they did as a problem.

I do see that a lot out there are don't like what happened and I feel for them. I don't like what they did with the Black Templars.
My issue with the Black Templars now is not that they were rolled into Codex: Space Marines, it is that they did not get there supplement.

Available to everyone, if they are willing to look for them are in order that they came out.
Codex: Inquisition
Codex: Grey Knights
Data-Slate: Assassins

Now though I have the option to play a large inquisition force without worrying about HAVING to take Cotez, without a single Grey Knight in it using any Imperial Unit I want to make up any force I feel like taking.
If I want to take an Assassin to tag along with my Space Marines I can just do it without having to take 1 HQ and 1 Troop First of Grey Knights first.
Sure it may cost more, but now there are a lot more options.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 01:25:24


Post by: Super Newb


text removed.

reds8n


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 01:43:31


Post by: Anpu42



I have not said it was "Better than Sliced Bread".
I said it was a Good Codex that gives Grey Knight Players what they wanted, a Pure Grey Knight army. Nothing more nothing less.

So let me say something again:
I HAVE NEVER SAID THIS THIS BOOK WAS A BARGAN! ALL I HAVE EVER SAID WAS THIS BOOK GAVE ME EXATLY WHAT I WANTED THAT IS WHY IT IS GOOD INVESTMENT FOR ME!





Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 02:10:42


Post by: Super Newb


Seems some people can't differentiate general comments versus specific ones directed only towards them.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 02:14:13


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
Seems some people can't differentiate general comments versus specific ones directed only towards them.

Well when you quote me what am I supposed to think?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 02:38:35


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Seems some people can't differentiate general comments versus specific ones directed only towards them.

Well when you quote me what am I supposed to think?


Oh no, not again, lol. Are you 'people'? I doubt you think of yourself in the plural. That's the first tip. Context helps too. *shrugs*


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 09:18:36


Post by: nosferatu1001


Really, "cheerleaders"? Sorry that we're not reflexively agreeing with you...

Your attempts at pretending you weren't directing comments, despite quoting anpu, is hilarious.

Care to explain how you could run a non Coteaz Inq force in fifth, without taking grey Knights? Something that, FACTUALLY, you can do now? Is that not an improvement?

Fact - this is a better GREY KNIGHTS book than previously. That is indisputable. There is no possible response to that other than "I am a person who can agree whena fact is a fact"


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 11:16:14


Post by: Quickjager


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Really, "cheerleaders"? Sorry that we're not reflexively agreeing with you...

Your attempts at pretending you weren't directing comments, despite quoting anpu, is hilarious.

Care to explain how you could run a non Coteaz Inq force in fifth, without taking grey Knights? Something that, FACTUALLY, you can do now? Is that not an improvement?

Fact - this is a better GREY KNIGHTS book than previously. That is indisputable. There is no possible response to that other than "I am a person who can agree whena fact is a fact"


That does not make it a better book for the players who primary army is GK, all that does is prove that GW is pushing an Ally agenda in 7th now. However IF I was running a Inq force only anyway, how does this make it a better GK book? You are essentially arguing that BECAUSE the Grey Knight codex was hamstrung in one aspect, it is better FOR them.



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/21 16:15:03


Post by: nosferatu1001


It's a better book about grey Knights, which is helpful for a book titled the same.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 15:28:35


Post by: Super Newb


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Really, "cheerleaders"? Sorry that we're not reflexively agreeing with you...


The (now deleted for some absurd reason) post was not about everyone agreeing. It was about some people not tolerating or accepting that others are not fans of the new GK book. Not empathizing with people's opinions but instead either always trying to minimize those folks' opinions or outright showing glee that those people's lists are no longer playable (or that a person would have to spend triple what they spend before in real world dollars in order to field their old list).


Your attempts at pretending you weren't directing comments, despite quoting anpu, is hilarious.


Anyone who read that post would see I was addressing a GROUP of people. I intentionally kept it general. No one should assume everything mentioned in an e-mail to a broad group of people would apply only to them. That if anything is what is 'hilarious.'


Fact - this is a better GREY KNIGHTS book than previously. That is indisputable. There is no possible response to that other than "I am a person who can agree whena fact is a fact"


This in fact is very disputable. What does better Grey Knights book even mean? Dreadnoughts are worse. PAGK are worse. Mordrak and Thrawn are worse (they don't exist). Yes DKs are better. Yes, the deep strike formation is great, yes GKTs are better. It's a mixed bag and 'better' depends on how much value people place on each unit.

*My* complaint, is based on an objective fact, which is that the new GK book has far less options than the previous book, even though it costs more money. That is actually a fact which actually cannot be disputed. That's different than your claim as I hope you can see now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It's a better book about grey Knights, which is helpful for a book titled the same.


Which Grey Knights? It's not better for psycannon toting PAGK. Not better for people who loved to run Mordrak (I am sure these people exist somewhere lol). Not better for people who converted up autocannon dreads. etc; etc;

It's a more narrowly focused book, yes, since half the material was cut out of it. Sure. And you think that is better. Ok. Strange opinion but ok. I am sure you can accept that for me, where I'd have to pay TRIPLE in real world dollars to get the rules to run at least 80% of my old lists, that I *don't* think the new GK codex is better. You can accept that that is my opinion, Yes?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 17:02:27


Post by: Envihon


I loved running Mordrak but not because I was attached to the character. He had an awesome story but I loved him for his rules. Since his rules still exist and are army wide, I am not that upset by the loss of Mordrak as a unit. GW didn't even deem him important enough to warrant a specific model.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 18:07:33


Post by: Anpu42


 Envihon wrote:
I loved running Mordrak but not because I was attached to the character. He had an awesome story but I loved him for his rules. Since his rules still exist and are army wide, I am not that upset by the loss of Mordrak as a unit. GW didn't even deem him important enough to warrant a specific model.

He can also be easily replicated by taking the following:
A Grand Master with the Cuirass of Sacrifice
A Paladin Squad with the Nemesis Banner and an Apothecary
Then use the Nemesis Strike Force and with the Re-Roll for your Warlord Trait you get a good chance of pulling off First to the Fray giving you 1st Turn Arrival with a re-roll on scatter.
You can also add a ALD with the Array for a 2+ First Turn Arrival.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 18:34:09


Post by: Super Newb


 Envihon wrote:
I loved running Mordrak but not because I was attached to the character. He had an awesome story but I loved him for his rules. Since his rules still exist and are army wide, I am not that upset by the loss of Mordrak as a unit. GW didn't even deem him important enough to warrant a specific model.


His rules don't exist army wide. Please try to be precise instead of misleading. I would hate for someone to get the wrong impression after reading your words. Which they will because what you said is actually false. I'm troubled you phrased it this way, again, after this was already discussed earlier.

Mordrak has rules you said. Note the plural. Which one of his rules are army wide? Guaranteed first turn deep strike? Nope. No scatter deep strike? Nope. Ghost generation? Nope.

So what you meant to say is the new GK book has what you deem to be a sufficient replacement for Mordrak - namely the formation that lets units deep strike in on the first turn on a 3+ which also lets units run and shoot on the turn they DS down. That is NOT Mordrak's rules at all of course. But you like it (so do I, it's a great formation). But again, it is not Mordrak's rules.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 18:35:33


Post by: nosferatu1001


Supernewb- I loved running Mordrak, and still love this book. You're not doing well here...

It isn't strange that, for someone who loves grey Knights, that a book all about them, where many lists are viable and interesting, is a better hook.

You still don't understand, which is fine, as your opinion isn't majorly important. I am not happy that half the material was cut. I am happy that a book titled GREY Knights is actually about grey Knights. Not coteaz, henchmen spquads in psybacks, and psyriflemen. I am happy that, conceptually and LONG TERM things are where they should be.

Oh, and "real world" dollars to play your old army? 0. GW has not forced anything on you. Peers may do, but GW hasn't.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 18:38:42


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
I loved running Mordrak but not because I was attached to the character. He had an awesome story but I loved him for his rules. Since his rules still exist and are army wide, I am not that upset by the loss of Mordrak as a unit. GW didn't even deem him important enough to warrant a specific model.

He can also be easily replicated by taking the following:
A Grand Master with the Cuirass of Sacrifice
A Paladin Squad with the Nemesis Banner and an Apothecary
Then use the Nemesis Strike Force and with the Re-Roll for your Warlord Trait you get a good chance of pulling off First to the Fray giving you 1st Turn Arrival with a re-roll on scatter.
You can also add a ALD with the Array for a 2+ First Turn Arrival.


Easily replicated to you means what, a 33% chance of occurring in the game? Six warlord traits, one reroll, that's about a 33% chance right? Is that really easy? Two out of Three games it won't happen. Also note that Paladin Squad costs a heck of a lot more than Mordrak's old ghosts did.

Anpu, you don't have to try to rebutt everything someone says in here. Especially when there is no good rebuttal to make. Ever hear of the phrase "putting lipstick on a pig"? That's what you did here. By trying to claim Mordrak could *easily* be replicated in the new dex. That just ain't true no matter how hard you try to dress it up all nicely.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 18:49:37


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
I loved running Mordrak but not because I was attached to the character. He had an awesome story but I loved him for his rules. Since his rules still exist and are army wide, I am not that upset by the loss of Mordrak as a unit. GW didn't even deem him important enough to warrant a specific model.

He can also be easily replicated by taking the following:
A Grand Master with the Cuirass of Sacrifice
A Paladin Squad with the Nemesis Banner and an Apothecary
Then use the Nemesis Strike Force and with the Re-Roll for your Warlord Trait you get a good chance of pulling off First to the Fray giving you 1st Turn Arrival with a re-roll on scatter.
You can also add a ALD with the Array for a 2+ First Turn Arrival.


Easily replicated to you means what, a 33% chance of occurring in the game? Six warlord traits, one reroll, that's about a 33% chance right? Is that really easy? Two out of Three games it won't happen. Also note that Paladin Squad costs a heck of a lot more than Mordrak's old ghosts did.

Anpu, you don't have to try to rebutt everything someone says in here. Especially when there is no good rebuttal to make. Ever hear of the phrase "putting lipstick on a pig"? That's what you did here. By trying to claim Mordrak could *easily* be replicated in the new dex. That just ain't true no matter how hard you try to dress it up all nicely.

I did not rebut him, I gave him and option.
Why can't you accept that someone believes something different than YOU. If you have not noticed I have stopped trying to convince you for the past few days.
I have stated that I think you are wrong, you disagreed with me. We had a day or two of arguing and then I moved on.
Some one comment on how he like a unit that does not exist anymore. I gave an Option on how to Replicate him closely. If he did not like my option, that is fine.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 18:53:15


Post by: Super Newb


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Supernewb- I loved running Mordrak, and still love this book. You're not doing well here...


I don't understand your point. Not doing well here? How about you elaborate so you make some sense to me. Should I assume you think my argument is that Mordrak is gone and no one who liked him will like the new book? Why in the blazes would you ever think I said anything remotely like that? Seriously why? I am puzzled by your dismissive remark. Also my main 'complaint' is completely and utterly objective - no one can actually argue against it. Less options for more money (or around the same options, with three dexes for TRIPLE the money). There is no well or unwell there. It's a straight up fact.

You still don't understand, which is fine, as your opinion isn't majorly important.


This is borderline insulting. I do understand. In your haste to reply, where you didn't even quote my words, it seems you missed / forgot what I actually said and are going off some faint memory / dream of what you think was said. Can you please, in the future, if you want to discuss things with me, actually quote what you are responding to? Thanks. Also, no one's opinion anywhere here is important (or at least more important than anyone else's), though by your general dismissive and rude tone I am sure you disagree.


I am not happy that half the material was cut. I am happy that a book titled GREY Knights is actually about grey Knights. Not coteaz, henchmen spquads in psybacks, and psyriflemen. I am happy that, conceptually and LONG TERM things are where they should be.


So the last book wasn't about Grey Knights? Could've fooled me, tons of GK stuff was in the last book. MORE GK stuff was in there than there is now actually. So please, at least phrase your opinion properly. You are happy that a book titled GREY Knights is only about Grey Knights now, because you don't want the book to have other non-GK options. That's a fine opinion. One I don't share, but whatever. I actually used all the 'branches' of the last dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
I loved running Mordrak but not because I was attached to the character. He had an awesome story but I loved him for his rules. Since his rules still exist and are army wide, I am not that upset by the loss of Mordrak as a unit. GW didn't even deem him important enough to warrant a specific model.

He can also be easily replicated by taking the following:
A Grand Master with the Cuirass of Sacrifice
A Paladin Squad with the Nemesis Banner and an Apothecary
Then use the Nemesis Strike Force and with the Re-Roll for your Warlord Trait you get a good chance of pulling off First to the Fray giving you 1st Turn Arrival with a re-roll on scatter.
You can also add a ALD with the Array for a 2+ First Turn Arrival.


Easily replicated to you means what, a 33% chance of occurring in the game? Six warlord traits, one reroll, that's about a 33% chance right? Is that really easy? Two out of Three games it won't happen. Also note that Paladin Squad costs a heck of a lot more than Mordrak's old ghosts did.

Anpu, you don't have to try to rebutt everything someone says in here. Especially when there is no good rebuttal to make. Ever hear of the phrase "putting lipstick on a pig"? That's what you did here. By trying to claim Mordrak could *easily* be replicated in the new dex. That just ain't true no matter how hard you try to dress it up all nicely.

I did not rebut him, I gave him and option.
Why can't you accept that someone believes something different than YOU. If you have not noticed I have stopped trying to convince you for the past few days.
I have stated that I think you are wrong, you disagreed with me. We had a day or two of arguing and then I moved on.
Some one comment on how he like a unit that does not exist anymore. I gave an Option on how to Replicate him closely. If he did not like my option, that is fine.


Let's cut the baloney and victimization routine and stick to the point. Your opinion is a 33% chance of getting something in game is an easy way to replicate something from an old dex that worked 100% of the time in that dex. I say a 33% chance is not easy. It means in most games you won't get it at all. If you believe that is "easy" than heck yeah we disagree! IF you said Mordrak can be replicated in game a minority of the time, for more points than before, then I'd agree with you. But you tried to make it sound easy peasy. Which it ain't.

Accept that and move on, or keep trying to argue it is 'easy' to replicate him even though it'll mostly fail. Choice is yours.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 19:17:13


Post by: nosferatu1001


The last book was called grey Knights, but had a huge chunk of not grey Knights. Clumsy, cluttered, stupid combos (daemon hosts and grey Knights. Woo).

Objectively this is a better book about grey Knights conceptually, as it is a GK book now. Not coteaz and friends.

I'm not dreaming, as you so rudely put it. Just finding your arguments not at all persuasive. Fact: every GK player I know of loves the new book,as we can play interesting GK armies now.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 19:26:39


Post by: Super Newb


nosferatu1001 wrote:
The last book was called grey Knights, but had a huge chunk of not grey Knights. Clumsy, cluttered, stupid combos (daemon hosts and grey Knights. Woo).

Objectively this is a better book about grey Knights conceptually, as it is a GK book now. Not coteaz and friends.

I'm not dreaming, as you so rudely put it. Just finding your arguments not at all persuasive. Fact: every GK player I know of loves the new book,as we can play interesting GK armies now.


So in summary. You won't quote what you are responding to even after I asked you to (after pointing out your odd comment earlier that appeared to have no relation to anything I actually said). Also, you won't apologize for dissing me, saying I don't understand and that my opinion is not important. And you have the audacity to call me rude?

We're done. (Edited to add - In case the implication wasn't clear you've been put on ignore - I hope your post following mine here has an apology for your behavior. Not that I will ever see it, but I hope it does at least. Good day)


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 19:51:31


Post by: nosferatu1001


No need to quote, as I was replying directly after yours.

You showed no understanding of the point made, as you claimed I thought dropping half the content was a good idea. I never said that, it was just the latest poor post from you.

You are, indeed, done.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 20:59:44


Post by: Envihon


Yeah, I am almost done with this thread. I came here for discussion, not so much a condescending and know-it-all tone of how everyone is wrong and the people that disagree are right.

I may have phrased something that could be a bit mis-leading but it was far from wrong. The essence of the Grey Knights are still contained in this book. The essence of Mordrak is still in the book. What made Mordrak good which was an alpha strike first turn to go in concert with a shunting move, is still in the codex and my point was that the players who played Mordrak lists should actually like this book instead of lamenting the loss of that specific character. No longer do you need to take a specific HQ to build a strategy around because the entire book now supports the strategy which to me is a reason to celebrate it.

Have you even done any play testing? Seen the failings of the book or simply doing the "equations" and calling it crap. If my play tests would of failed, I would of admitted to it and perhaps moved on to do more of my Imperial Fist army but the codex does work as intended and is an enjoyable, fun codex to play with. My GKs have done really well in matches, my tactics and strategy have never been stronger, this is with missing a key character in my strategy, Mordrak but my army still plays like it did when I had Mordrak, the only difference is that is does it more efficiently. And I will take real world results over some guy on the internet just saying that it is crap.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 21:24:44


Post by: Super Newb


 Envihon wrote:
Yeah, I am almost done with this thread. I came here for discussion, not so much a condescending and know-it-all tone of how everyone is wrong and the people that disagree are right.


What does this even mean? Who is saying everyone is wrong? Where? Care to find a quote of this claim you just made?

I may have phrased something that could be a bit mis-leading but it was far from wrong. The essence of the Grey Knights are still contained in this book. The essence of Mordrak is still in the book. What made Mordrak good which was an alpha strike first turn to go in concert with a shunting move, is still in the codex and my point was that the players who played Mordrak lists should actually like this book instead of lamenting the loss of that specific character. No longer do you need to take a specific HQ to build a strategy around because the entire book now supports the strategy which to me is a reason to celebrate it


You. Said. Something. 100% Incorrect. It is not a crime to point that out (nor is it a crime to admit when one totally messes up a sentence and ends up stating a falsehood). Mordrak's rules aren't army wide now. You said they were. That is flat out, 100% wrong. There is no other way to state it. I corrected you, that's all. Now, of course, some similar to Mordrak stuff is army-wide, similar in that a form of first turn deep strike can happen (a form of first turn deep strike vastly different than Mordraks first turn deep strike mind you, the only similarity is potentially deep striking on the first turn). Words have meaning and when you are so imprecise in what you are trying to get across that you actually state falsehoods, people are going to call you out on it. Now, thankfully, you used much better language just now "the essence of Mordrak is still in the book." That's a lot broader and includes what you explained nicely now I about Mordrak lists. That's a good paragraph. But come on man, you gotta admit you wrote a sentence that was absolutely 100% false earlier. Mordrak's rules aren't army wide. He auto deep struck on turn 1, army-wide doesn't have that now, they have to roll for it. He didn't scatter, army-wide now does. He and his squad could either run or shoot, now army-wide they can do both. Very different rules-wise.


And I will take real world results over some guy on the internet just saying that it is crap.


Who said this? Are you referring to me? Care to find a quote? What are you even talking about here? Did I say anything about how deep strike and shunt lists play competitively? Nope. I just said Mordrak wasn't in the codex (along with a ton of other stuff removed). Then you said that false statement about Mordrak and his rules, I corrected you and here we are. So I am not sure why you are implying things I never said. This is why quoting your fellow commenter is important.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 21:27:33


Post by: Jancoran


Mistakes happen.

and i agree: Real world results speak to me. theory crafting when terrain can be infinitely variable is something im not down with especially unless there's just insufficnet real evidence to go on. Which isnt the rule.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 21:32:45


Post by: Anpu42


 Jancoran wrote:
Mistakes happen.

and i agree: Real world results speak to me. theory crafting when terrain can be infinitely variable is something im not down with especially unless there's just insufficnet real evidence to go on. Which isnt the rule.

Same here, my Motto with that is:
I Loath MathHammer!
I Love MathHammer with Play Testing!


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 22:52:35


Post by: Envihon


Super Newb wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
Yeah, I am almost done with this thread. I came here for discussion, not so much a condescending and know-it-all tone of how everyone is wrong and the people that disagree are right.


What does this even mean? Who is saying everyone is wrong? Where? Care to find a quote of this claim you just made?

I may have phrased something that could be a bit mis-leading but it was far from wrong. The essence of the Grey Knights are still contained in this book. The essence of Mordrak is still in the book. What made Mordrak good which was an alpha strike first turn to go in concert with a shunting move, is still in the codex and my point was that the players who played Mordrak lists should actually like this book instead of lamenting the loss of that specific character. No longer do you need to take a specific HQ to build a strategy around because the entire book now supports the strategy which to me is a reason to celebrate it


You. Said. Something. 100% Incorrect. It is not a crime to point that out (nor is it a crime to admit when one totally messes up a sentence and ends up stating a falsehood). Mordrak's rules aren't army wide now. You said they were. That is flat out, 100% wrong. There is no other way to state it. I corrected you, that's all. Now, of course, some similar to Mordrak stuff is army-wide, similar in that a form of first turn deep strike can happen (a form of first turn deep strike vastly different than Mordraks first turn deep strike mind you, the only similarity is potentially deep striking on the first turn). Words have meaning and when you are so imprecise in what you are trying to get across that you actually state falsehoods, people are going to call you out on it. Now, thankfully, you used much better language just now "the essence of Mordrak is still in the book." That's a lot broader and includes what you explained nicely now I about Mordrak lists. That's a good paragraph. But come on man, you gotta admit you wrote a sentence that was absolutely 100% false earlier. Mordrak's rules aren't army wide. He auto deep struck on turn 1, army-wide doesn't have that now, they have to roll for it. He didn't scatter, army-wide now does. He and his squad could either run or shoot, now army-wide they can do both. Very different rules-wise.


And I will take real world results over some guy on the internet just saying that it is crap.


Who said this? Are you referring to me? Care to find a quote? What are you even talking about here? Did I say anything about how deep strike and shunt lists play competitively? Nope. I just said Mordrak wasn't in the codex (along with a ton of other stuff removed). Then you said that false statement about Mordrak and his rules, I corrected you and here we are. So I am not sure why you are implying things I never said. This is why quoting your fellow commenter is important.


Saying Mordrak's rules are army wide, isn't 100% wrong, maybe misleading but not 100% wrong. If I would of said something like "Every rule Mordrak had exactly the way Mordrak had it is now army wide" that would be an incorrect statement. "Mordrak's rules are army wide now" is vague enough to be a correct portrayal of the new rules that the GK have but misleading at the same time but the statement still contains no specifics so it can't be 100% wrong. This is arguing semantics at this point though which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I can admit my mistakes and I admit to the statement being misleading but not wrong. An attempt to show people that Mordrak wasn't eliminated merely had his rules taken and basically given to the whole army because Mordrak was probably the one thing that functioned like GK do in the fluff. A way to show those who are having misgivings that Mordrak was gone, that they still have the army they had in the 5th edition codex. Someone has already detailed how to make a Mordrak and even GW said that they may have been taking some of the named characters away but they were making sure that their rules were still in the codex. To have given Mordrak's exact rules to the army would have been ridiculously good and made non-GK players flip tables, people already got upset when it was just Mordrak and his Knights so this is something that I had in mind when making such a statement and something that I think that readers are also discern if they knew Mordrak's rules. I don't like to be outright condescending to people and if someone was mislead by it, to ask questions instead of flipping out and belittling other posters which makes for a distasteful conversation. I am not deliberately trying to mislead people, merely not have anyone give up one the army because of some changes when the essence of the character they liked are contained within the codex.



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 23:33:39


Post by: Super Newb


 Envihon wrote:
Saying Mordrak's rules are army wide, isn't 100% wrong, maybe misleading but not 100% wrong. If I would of said something like "Every rule Mordrak had exactly the way Mordrak had it is now army wide" that would be an incorrect statement. "Mordrak's rules are army wide now" is vague enough to be a correct portrayal of the new rules that the GK have but misleading at the same time but the statement still contains no specifics so it can't be 100% wrong. This is arguing semantics at this point though which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I can admit my mistakes and I admit to the statement being misleading but not wrong. An attempt to show people that Mordrak wasn't eliminated merely had his rules taken and basically given to the whole army because Mordrak was probably the one thing that functioned like GK do in the fluff. A way to show those who are having misgivings that Mordrak was gone, that they still have the army they had in the 5th edition codex. Someone has already detailed how to make a Mordrak and even GW said that they may have been taking some of the named characters away but they were making sure that their rules were still in the codex. To have given Mordrak's exact rules to the army would have been ridiculously good and made non-GK players flip tables, people already got upset when it was just Mordrak and his Knights so this is something that I had in mind when making such a statement and something that I think that readers are also discern if they knew Mordrak's rules. I don't like to be outright condescending to people and if someone was mislead by it, to ask questions instead of flipping out and belittling other posters which makes for a distasteful conversation. I am not deliberately trying to mislead people, merely not have anyone give up one the army because of some changes when the essence of the character they liked are contained within the codex.



Oh my god, are you serious!? Why are you doing this?

Literally NONE of Mordrak's special rules are available army wide. Not his ghost friends related rules, not his auto first turn deepstrike, not his no scatter deep strike.

It's ok, you slipped up and said an entirely wrong sentence. It happens. Get over it already. I've gotten rules wrong in this forum. I've said incorrect things. I get corrected. It happens. The world keeps on spinning. It's ok. [Insert picture from the hit Disney movie 'Frozen' here, specifically from the song 'Let it Go']


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 23:49:33


Post by: Envihon


Super Newb wrote:
Oh my god, are you serious!?

Literally NONE of Mordrak's special rules are available army wide. Not his ghost friends rule, not his auto first turn deepstrike, not his no scatter deep strike.

It's ok, you slipped up and said an entirely wrong sentence. It happens. Get over it already.


You see this is where one twists words to make sure that their points are the ones that come out on top. You have been splitting hairs and nit-picking every argument in order to belittle and trying to show how right you are over every one else while completely ignoring other parts of their points. I explained myself and this post here addresses nothing I said. This post might as well of said "I am entirely right and you are wrong regardless what you have to say, so agree with me and say I am right, you are wrong". You haven't contributed constructively to the conversation for quite a while but continue to degrade not only the arguments but the people themselves. I said that my sentence may have and can be misleading which is why I later fully explained my sentiments later in the post and I have explained it several times but you are the only one who continues to have a problem with it. To what end?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/23 23:58:46


Post by: Super Newb


 Envihon wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Oh my god, are you serious!?

Literally NONE of Mordrak's special rules are available army wide. Not his ghost friends rule, not his auto first turn deepstrike, not his no scatter deep strike.

It's ok, you slipped up and said an entirely wrong sentence. It happens. Get over it already.


You see this is where one twists words to make sure that their points are the ones that come out on top. You have been splitting hairs and nit-picking every argument in order to belittle and trying to show how right you are over every one else while completely ignoring other parts of their points. I explained myself and this post here addresses nothing I said. This post might as well of said "I am entirely right and you are wrong regardless what you have to say, so agree with me and say I am right, you are wrong". You haven't contributed constructively to the conversation for quite a while but continue to degrade not only the arguments but the people themselves. I said that my sentence may have and can be misleading which is why I later fully explained my sentiments later in the post and I have explained it several times but you are the only one who continues to have a problem with it. To what end?


WHAT!? That is the least accurate summary of what has occurred. I said your comments on the "essence of Mordrak" were good. I have said quite a few times that I like the new deep striking formation in the GK dex. Go back and look and see for yourself.

Now I *also* pointed out that you said something entirely incorrect. In that first post I said I wanted to be sure no one reading this thread would get the wrong idea. Which is why I went over how your statement was wrong. And it is wrong. 100% wrong. And for some reason you are taking extreme offense to me pointing out this simple slip-up of yours. I don't know why. One of the other posters said mistakes happen. And they do. All the time, to everyone, including me. Get over it.




Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 00:12:43


Post by: Psienesis


Dude. Literally no one cares. Let it drop.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 00:19:56


Post by: Envihon


Super Newb wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Oh my god, are you serious!?

Literally NONE of Mordrak's special rules are available army wide. Not his ghost friends rule, not his auto first turn deepstrike, not his no scatter deep strike.

It's ok, you slipped up and said an entirely wrong sentence. It happens. Get over it already.


You see this is where one twists words to make sure that their points are the ones that come out on top. You have been splitting hairs and nit-picking every argument in order to belittle and trying to show how right you are over every one else while completely ignoring other parts of their points. I explained myself and this post here addresses nothing I said. This post might as well of said "I am entirely right and you are wrong regardless what you have to say, so agree with me and say I am right, you are wrong". You haven't contributed constructively to the conversation for quite a while but continue to degrade not only the arguments but the people themselves. I said that my sentence may have and can be misleading which is why I later fully explained my sentiments later in the post and I have explained it several times but you are the only one who continues to have a problem with it. To what end?


WHAT!? That is the least accurate summary of what has occurred. I said your comments on the "essence of Mordrak" were good. I have said quite a few times that I like the new deep striking formation in the GK dex. Go back and look and see for yourself.

Now I *also* pointed out that you said something entirely incorrect. In that first post I said I wanted to be sure no one reading this thread would get the wrong idea. Which is why I went over how your statement was wrong. And it is wrong. 100% wrong. And for some reason you are taking extreme offense to me pointing out this simple slip-up of yours. I don't know why. One of the other posters said mistakes happen. And they do. All the time, to everyone, including me. Get over it.




I have looked on the past comments, and most of your comments have been frankly, insulting quips back and forth to people. I am also not the only one to call you out for your behavior. It is not what you said but how you said it. A lot of your posts have been insulting. I am not taking offense to what you said but how you said it and the way you point it out which only contributes to escalate the situation instead of having a civil conversation on the pros and cons of a codex.

You are still arguing semantics and I still do not believe that my statement was not "100% wrong" but it did in fact, need more clarification when I say that Mordrak's rules were still in the book and army wide. Previously in the post, I pointed out why the modification was needed for those rules and why with what they did with the rules, why they couldn't just make a carbon copy of Mordrak's rules, again, you ignored that post which was a previous clarification before these latest serious of posts. I don't know why it upsets you to have it phrased that way. I simply wanted to convey that Mordrak and his strategy are basically still in the codex. That is all. How this lead you to have the reaction you had, still escapes me. I can understand pointing it out or asking for clarification but frankly, many of your responses to me and other people is uncalled for.



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 05:20:03


Post by: SHUPPET


Super Newb wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Oh my god, are you serious!?

Literally NONE of Mordrak's special rules are available army wide. Not his ghost friends rule, not his auto first turn deepstrike, not his no scatter deep strike.

It's ok, you slipped up and said an entirely wrong sentence. It happens. Get over it already.


You see this is where one twists words to make sure that their points are the ones that come out on top. You have been splitting hairs and nit-picking every argument in order to belittle and trying to show how right you are over every one else while completely ignoring other parts of their points. I explained myself and this post here addresses nothing I said. This post might as well of said "I am entirely right and you are wrong regardless what you have to say, so agree with me and say I am right, you are wrong". You haven't contributed constructively to the conversation for quite a while but continue to degrade not only the arguments but the people themselves. I said that my sentence may have and can be misleading which is why I later fully explained my sentiments later in the post and I have explained it several times but you are the only one who continues to have a problem with it. To what end?


WHAT!? That is the least accurate summary of what has occurred. I said your comments on the "essence of Mordrak" were good. I have said quite a few times that I like the new deep striking formation in the GK dex. Go back and look and see for yourself.

Now I *also* pointed out that you said something entirely incorrect. In that first post I said I wanted to be sure no one reading this thread would get the wrong idea. Which is why I went over how your statement was wrong. And it is wrong. 100% wrong. And for some reason you are taking extreme offense to me pointing out this simple slip-up of yours. I don't know why. One of the other posters said mistakes happen. And they do. All the time, to everyone, including me. Get over it.




Agreed, you corrected him on an incorrect statement, what the hell is with this alphadog crap, that is contributing to keeping the thread moving positively towards an accurate discussion. Some people need to just accept that they said something incorrect and keep it moving from there. It's not you making a big deal about this, its quite clearly that guy.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 08:42:19


Post by: nosferatu1001


 Psienesis wrote:
Dude. Literally no one cares. Let it drop.

Agreed, on both sides. I think most understood the essence of what Envihon was saying, before S. Newb jumped all over it, haranguing yet another poster.

Overall, this is a good book about Grey Knights, as Grey Knights have some interest back and it is no longer a horrendous mish mash of poorly defined concepts shoved together into one book. That is "overall", not unqualified as others will insinuate was said - I do dislike loss of MOrdrak, but it was to be expected (anyone who couldnt see this was a tidy up coming a mile off, meaning dropping non-modelled characters, was very naive / ill informed, or just didnt think too much about it) and same for Thawn (had models converted for both, and an army initially built around Mordrak, yet i STILL like this book - guess that makes me odd, according to some) BUT know that *he can return* - and wont have to wait for a new codex. Theyre model led, as a company, so if someone comes up with a cool sculpt, they can add him in without waiting for 5 years to do it. Thats a *good thing*

Its a strong book, with every unit viable - PAGK definitely have their place, and not just with interceptors. Purifiers got a buff (ML2, cleansing flame hitting everyone in combat and out within 9" and not just confined to combat any longer) to go with their nerf (no DS, but can be fixed with SW...., psycannon salvo) and with two complimentary force orgs to use - CAD or Nemesis work very well. Once tournaments get over the "one detachment!!!!" panic, and embrace multiples as they should be doing, you could well see this (OS PAGK holding the line while termies DS in first turn with a reroll? Hells yes) happening.

Its a fun book. its gotten me to play my all foot terminator army again, but ive succumbed and bougth a LRR as it fits how I see this army going. I am sad about Mordrak, loved the guy (won me more than a few games, as people just couldnt cope with c1k points (with 2 DK) being in their deployment zone turn 1, even if it didnt really shoot you that well!) and thawn was a laugh - again, kept getting back up (with me going second) to deny a DW player the win by hogging an objective most of a game in 5th, but I can cope and move on. It was all expected, so I was prepared for it.

If you really, really dont want to be "forced" into paying more - then dont. PLay with the 5th ed codex. If other people dont let you, thats not really GWs fault.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 09:08:30


Post by: SHUPPET


What on earth is the matter with correcting someone putting incorrect information out there? Or is it just because you stand on the side of the fence that Envihon sits on? Because thats genuinely what it sounds like. "I'll argue my perspective to the death in this thread - wait whats that? Someone pointed out a mistake in the logic we are pursuing? Dude, nobody cares about that, this thread is all about how CORRECT we are, we don't need our MISTAKES pointed out by people who DISAGREE with our opinion !"


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 10:22:10


Post by: nosferatu1001


There isnt anything the matter with pointing out errors - the way it was done was the problem. AS is clear, if you actually read through the posts from S newb coldly.

Your bias is funny to watch, it really is. S Newbs responses overall havent been great, but because theyre on "your" side you seem to see no issue. I've said there is an issue on both sides, and yet you still insinuate more bias....

Dont "quote" your made up, fabulously inaccurate opinions, thanks.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 10:55:41


Post by: Envihon


 SHUPPET wrote:
What on earth is the matter with correcting someone putting incorrect information out there? Or is it just because you stand on the side of the fence that Envihon sits on? Because thats genuinely what it sounds like. "I'll argue my perspective to the death in this thread - wait whats that? Someone pointed out a mistake in the logic we are pursuing? Dude, nobody cares about that, this thread is all about how CORRECT we are, we don't need our MISTAKES pointed out by people who DISAGREE with our opinion !"


There is nothing wrong with it, as I said in my last post which you conveniently ignored so that you could still make a "point". I pointed out that it was the way he has been conducting himself and the way he has been saying things that have been a bother. It became clear that he doesn't want to have a discussion but just prove how right he is which he did in an ungraceful manner that insults people. I corrected and clarified what I said which doesn't make someone "100% wrong", just that I made a vague, possibly misleading statement but he continued to insist that I was "100% wrong" in order to show how right he actually was. There is quite a difference in pointing out something and doing what Super Newb was doing. There is no getting around that.

You accuse someone else about having a bias because we are on the same side of the argument but it is easily turned around on you as well. This wasn't even an issue about the original post but how someone acting distastefully spiraled the conversation our of control and by making posts like this, you are only contributing to it. Again, I ask, to what end?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 12:21:15


Post by: SHUPPET


nosferatu1001 wrote:
There isnt anything the matter with pointing out errors - the way it was done was the problem. AS is clear, if you actually read through the posts from S newb coldly.

Your bias is funny to watch, it really is. S Newbs responses overall havent been great, but because theyre on "your" side you seem to see no issue. I've said there is an issue on both sides, and yet you still insinuate more bias....

Dont "quote" your made up, fabulously inaccurate opinions, thanks.


How is it a "side"? Yes, I stand on the side of accurate discussion, the guy said something completely wrong and was corrected on it. I'm not even following this thread to the point that I know how any of you feel about the greater debate between good codex or not, all I saw was the argument about Mordraks special rules, in which someone made a statement and was corrected, but apparently doing this makes you a negative contributor for going against the grain. Your post just further reinforces this, by projecting a bunch of crap on to me that I'm not even sure what it is in reference to. Whatever, you guys are fully right about whichever "side" you stand on and whatever your opinions are, fact is the crap spouted about Mordrak needed correcting.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 12:36:16


Post by: nosferatu1001


Sigh

Again, yes, it needed correcting. I even stated that there isnt anything wrong with correcting errors, in the post you quoted but clearly didnt digest.

What was wrong was the way it was corrected. Which, again, I stated, but you didnt take in (or rather, nothing in your above post gives any clue that you understood the difference, which is all I can go on in making this assessment) in that post due to this statement "fact is the crap spouted about Mordrak needed correcting."

Nobody disputed that. The poster who made the comment didnt dispute it - although would probably suggest your pejorative was more insulting than helpful, as do I - however the FACT is they *way* the correction made was rude, condescending, and against rule 1.

The fact you dont seem to see that suggests some bias on your point, and the fact you havent really followed the thread just increases your chance of bias or error.



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 13:40:45


Post by: Anpu42


I just wished they had given us a Dreadnaught Kit at least, with the option for the Nemesis Force Weapons.
We may even house rule that with our group using Dreadknight Weapons.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 15:44:05


Post by: Super Newb


 SHUPPET wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
There isnt anything the matter with pointing out errors - the way it was done was the problem. AS is clear, if you actually read through the posts from S newb coldly.

Your bias is funny to watch, it really is. S Newbs responses overall havent been great, but because theyre on "your" side you seem to see no issue. I've said there is an issue on both sides, and yet you still insinuate more bias....

Dont "quote" your made up, fabulously inaccurate opinions, thanks.


How is it a "side"? Yes, I stand on the side of accurate discussion, the guy said something completely wrong and was corrected on it. I'm not even following this thread to the point that I know how any of you feel about the greater debate between good codex or not, all I saw was the argument about Mordraks special rules, in which someone made a statement and was corrected, but apparently doing this makes you a negative contributor for going against the grain. Your post just further reinforces this, by projecting a bunch of crap on to me that I'm not even sure what it is in reference to. Whatever, you guys are fully right about whichever "side" you stand on and whatever your opinions are, fact is the crap spouted about Mordrak needed correcting.


Apparently your bolded statements are very controversial in this thread. I don't know why, it's like I'm in Bizarro world. One where correcting a simple mistake (while even agreeing with the guy's larger point on deep striking!!! lol) somehow leads to ridiculous push back. Sad really...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Anpu42 wrote:
I just wished they had given us a Dreadnaught Kit at least, with the option for the Nemesis Force Weapons.
We may even house rule that with our group using Dreadknight Weapons.


Fun idea.

Yeah, at least an add on kit or something would've been nice. But instead, sadly, they nerfed the dreadnaughts points-wise (and of course took away psybolts). The big buff to DKs makes up for that some though.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 15:50:35


Post by: Grey Templar


Its not that you corrected him, its that you were a bit of a jerk while doing so. And he really didn't mean Mordraks rules were literally copy pasted, he just meant the spirit of his rules were.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 15:54:38


Post by: Super Newb


 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not that you corrected him, its that you were a bit of a jerk while doing so. And he really didn't mean Mordraks rules were literally copy pasted, he just meant the spirit of his rules were.


Quoting is our friend.

 Envihon wrote:
Mordrak's mechanics are still in the game, only now they have been made army wide.



Here comes my rude response. GOD I am such a jerk:

Super Newb wrote:
Environ, it's not the exact same mechanic. Mordrak always came down turn 1 with no scatter. No one can do that now, well an hq can if you get the right warlord trait but that's it.

Anyway, the Nemisis Strike Force detachment is great, I agree with you there. Running and shooting after deep striking is very nice and of course so is coming down on turn 1 on a 3+.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 15:55:46


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
Apparently your bolded statements are very controversial in this thread. I don't know why, it's like I'm in Bizarro world. One where correcting a simple mistake (while even agreeing with the guy's larger point on deep striking!!! lol) somehow leads to ridiculous push back. Sad really...

Actually the issue is that id someone seem to disagree with you your responses to us [weather you mean are not] come across like you are calling ignorant children and you know "Better Than Us".
I don't know if you intend to be this way, but this is how you sound. it has nothing to do with your rules interpretation, you opinion of the Book. It is just an attitude issue.
I love a good debate, but you keep making it "Yes I Know What I am/Now What You Are" style Arguments.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:02:00


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Apparently your bolded statements are very controversial in this thread. I don't know why, it's like I'm in Bizarro world. One where correcting a simple mistake (while even agreeing with the guy's larger point on deep striking!!! lol) somehow leads to ridiculous push back. Sad really...

Actually the issue is that id someone seem to disagree with you your responses to us [weather you mean are not] come across like you are calling ignorant children and you know "Better Than Us".


You must not have been reading this thread recently. Guy writes false statement. Twice (days apart). I correct him twice. Guy has massive problems with being corrected (most specifically my claim that his statement was 100% wrong, which it actually is. Luckily his actual meaning he wanted to convey is now in this thread, where he talks about the 'essence' of Mordrak lists, lucky no lurkers will get the wrong idea about the new GK and deep striking rules. All should be well. Unluckily he still has massive problems that he was simply corrected. I don't know why. It is not behavior anyone should emulate in these forums. Yet because of blinders and 'sides' some people can't see that I guess.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:08:47


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Apparently your bolded statements are very controversial in this thread. I don't know why, it's like I'm in Bizarro world. One where correcting a simple mistake (while even agreeing with the guy's larger point on deep striking!!! lol) somehow leads to ridiculous push back. Sad really...

Actually the issue is that id someone seem to disagree with you your responses to us [weather you mean are not] come across like you are calling ignorant children and you know "Better Than Us".


You must not have been reading this thread recently. Guy writes false statement. Twice (days apart). I correct him twice. Guy has massive problems with being corrected (most specifically my claim that his statement was 100% wrong, which it actually is. Luckily his actual meaning he wanted to convey is now in this thread, where he talks about the 'essence' of Mordrak lists, lucky no lurkers will get the wrong idea about the new GK and deep striking rules. All should be well. Unluckily he still has massive problems that he was simply corrected. I don't know why. It is not behavior anyone should emulate in these forums. Yet because of blinders and 'sides' some people can't see that I guess.

Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.



Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:13:55


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.


Did you scroll up and see what I replied to Grey Templar? Did that offend you? No, of course not, I was super nice there, the first time I corrected your friend. I was all business the second time, which you are welcome to quote and show exactly what was so bad about it (saying words need to be precise is bad maybe?). But it was the second time. The second time he said a literally false statement about the rules. After being corrected on it before. In the grand scheme of things that is not bad at all. And of course is FAR BETTER than having a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected - which you still haven't commented on btw. This is what I am talking about with taking sides. If you weren't so concerned with sides you would easily see what the inappropriate behavior is regarding the discussion on Mordrak and his rules. And it ain't coming from me.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:16:48


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.


Did you scroll up and see what I replied to Grey Templar? Did that offend you? No, of course not, I was super nice there, the first time I corrected your friend. I was all business the second time, which you are welcome to quote and show exactly what was so bad about it (saying words need to be precise is bad maybe?). But it was the second time. The second time he said a literally false statement about the rules. After being corrected on it before. In the grand scheme of things that is not bad at all. And of course is FAR BETTER than having a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected - which you still haven't commented on btw. This is what I am talking about with taking sides. If you weren't so concerned with sides you would easily see what the inappropriate behavior is regarding the discussion on Mordrak and his rules. And it ain't coming from me.

Why don't you mind me of what you were correcting me on. I have lost it in all of the chest beating going on.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:21:33


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.


Did you scroll up and see what I replied to Grey Templar? Did that offend you? No, of course not, I was super nice there, the first time I corrected your friend. I was all business the second time, which you are welcome to quote and show exactly what was so bad about it (saying words need to be precise is bad maybe?). But it was the second time. The second time he said a literally false statement about the rules. After being corrected on it before. In the grand scheme of things that is not bad at all. And of course is FAR BETTER than having a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected - which you still haven't commented on btw. This is what I am talking about with taking sides. If you weren't so concerned with sides you would easily see what the inappropriate behavior is regarding the discussion on Mordrak and his rules. And it ain't coming from me.

Why don't you mind me of what you were correcting me on. I have lost it in all of the chest beating going on.


I don't understand what you are saying and I definitely don't understand how it relates to what I said above. Are you abruptly changing the course of the discussion? Please don't reply to one thing and start talking about something else.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:27:05


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.


Did you scroll up and see what I replied to Grey Templar? Did that offend you? No, of course not, I was super nice there, the first time I corrected your friend. I was all business the second time, which you are welcome to quote and show exactly what was so bad about it (saying words need to be precise is bad maybe?). But it was the second time. The second time he said a literally false statement about the rules. After being corrected on it before. In the grand scheme of things that is not bad at all. And of course is FAR BETTER than having a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected - which you still haven't commented on btw. This is what I am talking about with taking sides. If you weren't so concerned with sides you would easily see what the inappropriate behavior is regarding the discussion on Mordrak and his rules. And it ain't coming from me.

Why don't you mind me of what you were correcting me on. I have lost it in all of the chest beating going on.


I don't understand what you are saying and I definitely don't understand how it relates to what I said above. Are you abruptly changing the course of the discussion? Please don't reply to one thing and start talking about something else.

You said I did not Address something, I just asked what did I not address?


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:37:52


Post by: Super Newb


 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.


Did you scroll up and see what I replied to Grey Templar? Did that offend you? No, of course not, I was super nice there, the first time I corrected your friend. I was all business the second time, which you are welcome to quote and show exactly what was so bad about it (saying words need to be precise is bad maybe?). But it was the second time. The second time he said a literally false statement about the rules. After being corrected on it before. In the grand scheme of things that is not bad at all. And of course is FAR BETTER than having a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected - which you still haven't commented on btw. This is what I am talking about with taking sides. If you weren't so concerned with sides you would easily see what the inappropriate behavior is regarding the discussion on Mordrak and his rules. And it ain't coming from me.

Why don't you mind me of what you were correcting me on. I have lost it in all of the chest beating going on.


I don't understand what you are saying and I definitely don't understand how it relates to what I said above. Are you abruptly changing the course of the discussion? Please don't reply to one thing and start talking about something else.

You said I did not Address something, I just asked what did I not address?


Wait what? Seriously? Unfortunately the last bunch of posts in this thread have been about a certain someone who had a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected. Which is why I said that in the post above immediately prior to the part you bolded. That is not about you, unless you have two dakka accounts, which I doubt you do. My point is, for some unknown reason, it is 'bad' to correct someone yet the inappropriate response to being corrected is ignored by you and others. Correct info is actually a good thing (especially when false info is stated again after the first correction). Inappropriately responding to a correction is not good. It is actually very very bad. But you wouldn't know it by reading this thread. If this thread was the only thing to go on, one has a god-given right to be massively offended by a simple correction.

Why the heck am I even talking about this still? It blows my mind this is going on.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:41:33


Post by: Anpu42


Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I have been following it. My Comments have Nothing to do with the Rules Statements, NOTHING!
It was HOW you did it.


Did you scroll up and see what I replied to Grey Templar? Did that offend you? No, of course not, I was super nice there, the first time I corrected your friend. I was all business the second time, which you are welcome to quote and show exactly what was so bad about it (saying words need to be precise is bad maybe?). But it was the second time. The second time he said a literally false statement about the rules. After being corrected on it before. In the grand scheme of things that is not bad at all. And of course is FAR BETTER than having a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected - which you still haven't commented on btw. This is what I am talking about with taking sides. If you weren't so concerned with sides you would easily see what the inappropriate behavior is regarding the discussion on Mordrak and his rules. And it ain't coming from me.

Why don't you mind me of what you were correcting me on. I have lost it in all of the chest beating going on.


I don't understand what you are saying and I definitely don't understand how it relates to what I said above. Are you abruptly changing the course of the discussion? Please don't reply to one thing and start talking about something else.

You said I did not Address something, I just asked what did I not address?


Wait what? Seriously? Unfortunately the last bunch of posts in this thread have been about a certain someone who had a massive inappropriate reaction to being corrected. Which is why I said that in the post above immediately prior to the part you bolded. That is not about you, unless you have two dakka accounts, which I doubt you do. My point is, for some unknown reason, it is 'bad' to correct someone yet the inappropriate response to being corrected is ignored by you and others. Correct info is actually a good thing (especially when false info is stated again after the first correction). Inappropriately responding to a correction is not good. It is actually very very bad. But you wouldn't know it by reading this thread. If this thread was the only thing to go on, one has a god-given right to be massively offended by a simple correction.

Why the heck am I even talking about this still? It blows my mind this is going on.

Again you Quoted me and then put that question in. If you quote someone you are talking to them unless you state otherwise, at least that is how most of us understand it.
Maybe this understanding can be fixed with how you make your statements. Us things like @Anpu42 or removing my name from the Quote.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:48:29


Post by: Super Newb


I'm at a loss for words Anpu. My post was clearly not about you. See mentions to "your friend", me repeatedly saying 'he' and not 'you' and *all* the context or explicit statements referencing someone else regarding: Mordrak's rules and the correction there of. I just can't even.

Point is you're chewing me out, even though Envihon behaved in a very inappropriate, thread destroying manner. All because of a simple correction which blows my mind. All I wanted was clarity, for people to know Mordrak's rules aren't actually army-wide. And that humble goal was met with extreme push back, by Envihon, and then less extreme push back, but still push back from the likes of Grey Templar, that n guy I ended up ignoring and you. Why? I don't know. But I am not going to comment on my correction of Mordrak's rules anymore. Because this is well beyond ridiculous right now. Good day.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 16:53:13


Post by: Anpu42


Well as part of the community I still don't know what you are talking about.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 17:08:42


Post by: Envihon


Super Newb wrote:
I'm at a loss for words Anpu. My post was clearly not about you. See mentions to "your friend", me repeatedly saying 'he' and not 'you' and *all* the context or explicit statements referencing someone else regarding: Mordrak's rules and the correction there of. I just can't even.

Point is you're chewing me out, even though Envihon behaved in a very inappropriate, thread destroying manner. All because of a simple correction which blows my mind. All I wanted was clarity, for people to know Mordrak's rules aren't actually army-wide. And that humble goal was met with extreme push back, by Envihon, and then less extreme push back, but still push back from the likes of Grey Templar, that n guy I ended up ignoring and you. Why? I don't know. But I am not going to comment on my correction of Mordrak's rules anymore. Because this is well beyond ridiculous right now. Good day.


There is something we can agree on. Like I said, many of times that you seem to ignore was that I had no problem with being corrected, otherwise I wouldn't of clarified my statement and we would have been going on about another topic. My main problem was your behavior and attitude to not only me but others in this thread and your constant insistance on the point that I was a 100% wrong. If you would of been fine with just the clarification, you would of left it there and it wouldn't of gotten to this point but your constant push to have to be right about the statement and the way you have stated things in this post is what got us here. Now your attempt to turn around things and say that myself and everyone else derided the thread in order to try and save face but you have been constantly belligerent and belittling. I am sorry for my actions that lead to this but you have yet to take appropiate actions to even confirm your inappropiate behavior.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 17:13:07


Post by: SHUPPET


Am I the only person who didn't think the correction was actually said in such an offensive tone that it required this massive argument? No amount of telling me otherwise and accusing me of refusing to view thigs from an unbiased perspective, and that this is just my blatant bias at work, blah blah blah, can convince me otherwise. Also, im still actually unsure what exactly it is that I'm meant to be biased towards. What is the underlying debate here again?

But I guess everyone else here feels otherwise, so maybe I'm wrong. Looks to me like the whole "attitude issues" that I've yet to actually see specified in text, has just become a scapegoat for people trying to argue with SuperNewb/agree with Evilon.

But meh, this argument is pointless, and I think Ill make my exit from this thread before I too get bogged down into it any further, or witness somebody else's attempt to make me part of the scapegoat again. Have fun.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 17:16:13


Post by: Super Newb


 Envihon wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
I'm at a loss for words Anpu. My post was clearly not about you. See mentions to "your friend", me repeatedly saying 'he' and not 'you' and *all* the context or explicit statements referencing someone else regarding: Mordrak's rules and the correction there of. I just can't even.

Point is you're chewing me out, even though Envihon behaved in a very inappropriate, thread destroying manner. All because of a simple correction which blows my mind. All I wanted was clarity, for people to know Mordrak's rules aren't actually army-wide. And that humble goal was met with extreme push back, by Envihon, and then less extreme push back, but still push back from the likes of Grey Templar, that n guy I ended up ignoring and you. Why? I don't know. But I am not going to comment on my correction of Mordrak's rules anymore. Because this is well beyond ridiculous right now. Good day.


There is something we can agree on. Like I said, many of times that you seem to ignore was that I had no problem with being corrected, otherwise I wouldn't of clarified my statement and we would have been going on about another topic. My main problem was your behavior and attitude to not only me but others in this thread and your constant insistance on the point that I was a 100% wrong. If you would of been fine with just the clarification, you would of left it there and it wouldn't of gotten to this point but your constant push to have to be right about the statement and the way you have stated things in this post is what got us here. Now your attempt to turn around things and say that myself and everyone else derided the thread in order to try and save face but you have been constantly belligerent and belittling. I am sorry for my actions that lead to this but you have yet to take appropiate actions to even confirm your inappropiate behavior.


This is my last response on this. You were literally 100% incorrect in your statement. Twice. This has been well demonstrated. What has also been well demonstrated is your massively inappropriate response to being corrected. For some reason saying you were 100% wrong in that sentence the second time around set you off. I don't know why, but that's what happened. You still don't accept it either which is strange. The fact that no one complained about your absurd behavior except for some drive-by 'outsider' speaks volumes. Also, odd you keep forgetting I've agreed with your larger point on the new deep strike formation. The first time I corrected you, days ago, I even agreed with you. But that kept getting ignored by you, with your inappropriate hyper focus on the fact that I said '100% wrong'. In the future, try to be a little more chill (instead of inappropriately hyper-mega defensive) when someone corrects you. Thanks.





Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 17:16:28


Post by: SHUPPET


Super Newb wrote:
IBut I am not going to comment on my correction of Mordrak's rules anymore. Because this is well beyond ridiculous right now. Good day.

Pretty much this. Lol.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 18:15:53


Post by: Anpu42


Ok, in a feeble attempt to get back on what was supposed to be the topic of this thread.

They are a multitude of reasons for the lack of "The World Is Ending Treads" I people weather they recognize it is Consistent Patterns are starting to emerge and most people like consistency.
The Codex's are getting better: Not more Powerful, but since Codex: Space Marines they have mostly with come with lots of balance, both internally and externally with a few exceptions. Those being TauDar and Nids.
TauDar: Got hit with no longer being Battle-Brothers
Nids: Just has a series of fails, but can still be comparative.
Most of the new Codex's have addressed and issue or two, sometimes removing characters and sometimes adding some.
The main issue was overpriced Units, for the most part they have been doing a good job of that.
The other is Air Defense. Most of them added a Flyer or ground based Anti-Aircraft-Artillery or AAA. They all tend to be a little underwhelming and the major complaint has been a lack of Interceptor. However if you look at all of them, none of them have it so people are starting to see that is the new Norm.

Then you com to the Inquisition which now gives 4 Codex's in most peoples eyes, Sister of Battle, Inquisition, Grey Knights and Assassins.
Three of them are only available in Electronic Format only [This is a truly worthy complaint], though all of them have a prevision allowing you to make one physical copy for yourself.
Codex: Grey Knight though did their best to address their issues, but not all of them.
One was had become a watered down Codex where most people were nor playing Grey Knights and thus not buying Models and an Electronic Inquisition Codex was already in existence that was basically the 5th Edition Codex: Grey Knights without Grey Knights. When it came to Making a new Codex: Grey Knights there was no Need to put in Inquisition forces, especially with the new 7th Edition FOC/Allies System. Now why they removed Character I will not know, but with their No Model/No Rules policy I can see why, it was just easier than coming up with new models. To be honest, Grey Knights did not need new Models.
Two Lack of AAA. it would have been nice to get the Stalker/Hunter, but I agree with most it did not fit Grey Knights and with Allies, they did not need to. Them not getting a Air Superiority Fighter, the same is true and the Stormtalon does not fit with all of their Vehicles [other than walkers] are troop Transports. The Stormraven also make a good Air Superiority Fighter, more like a P-47 Thunderbolt than a P-51 Mustang, but still good.
Also a lot of Grey Knight Players [Notice the lack of Codex: Grey Knights] feel like it is a Grey Knight Codex. It is Balanced both Internally and Externally. They now play like Grey Knights should, a Small Elite Fast Moving Deep Striking Terminator Heavy Army.

Could they have added more, yes, but What?
Terminators in all FOC Slots?
Special Dreadnaught?
Jet Bikes?
All of those would have been nice, but they can all be replicated by either going unbound or with Allies.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 18:39:10


Post by: Psienesis


... the Inquisition has basically been removed from its involvement with the Sororitas. It would seem that they are no longer the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they simply "work closely together"... but that's only a minor part of the issues with the SOB.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 18:46:25


Post by: Anpu42


 Psienesis wrote:
... the Inquisition has basically been removed from its involvement with the Sororitas. It would seem that they are no longer the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they simply "work closely together"... but that's only a minor part of the issues with the SOB.

Yes I know , but only us few of us know/acknowledge that.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 19:33:53


Post by: Quickjager


The codex is NOT balanced internally, the only slot that could be argued for is the Elite slot, which ironically is also the LEAST contested slot because we have up to 4 units in it.

Externally... yes I could see that being true, once a pass over Eldar has been made even though it isn't a ridiculous stomp like TauDar was.

HQ we already know who we are taking
Troop we already know who is better in point efficiency. Only reason to take PAGK is to go double CAD and have 4 Dreadknights.
HS we already know who we are taking
FA MOST of the time Stormraven will be taken competitively because it is our AA, doesn't stop me from doubling down on Interceptors.

Elites are really the only place in the codex we have a semblance of actual flavorful choice that remains competitive.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 19:46:14


Post by: Envihon


 Psienesis wrote:
... the Inquisition has basically been removed from its involvement with the Sororitas. It would seem that they are no longer the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they simply "work closely together"... but that's only a minor part of the issues with the SOB.


So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote:
The codex is NOT balanced internally, the only slot that could be argued for is the Elite slot, which ironically is also the LEAST contested slot because we have up to 4 units in it.

Externally... yes I could see that being true, once a pass over Eldar has been made even though it isn't a ridiculous stomp like TauDar was.

HQ we already know who we are taking
Troop we already know who is better in point efficiency. Only reason to take PAGK is to go double CAD and have 4 Dreadknights.
HS we already know who we are taking
FA MOST of the time Stormraven will be taken competitively because it is our AA, doesn't stop me from doubling down on Interceptors.

Elites are really the only place in the codex we have a semblance of actual flavorful choice that remains competitive.


I will say that although liking the new codex, you have a point. There is a set way to take GK. For HS, Nemesis Dreadknights all day long. You will never see a Purgation squad on the table. Troops are pretty much going to be Terminators or maybe some cheap GKSS for someone running a Purifier army. Other codices do have more options but I feel like this is how GW wanted to go anyway. They were essentially making an army that is specialized in Deep Striking and the GK most certainly do it the best. So list building might be boring but you at least get an effective army is the one take away from this.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 20:33:51


Post by: Psienesis


So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 20:49:45


Post by: Anpu42


What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:01:57


Post by: Quickjager


 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.


Problem with Purgation Squads is that Purifier squads do the same thing as them, thus giving the slot to Dreadknights. I would be interested in Purgation squads if they were moved in say... Troop slot.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:09:16


Post by: Psienesis


 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.


Which would make them non-viable, no? If the unit they compete against for that slot is an auto-include, then the Purgation squad simply might as well not exist.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:15:14


Post by: Anpu42


Quickjager wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.


Problem with Purgation Squads is that Purifier squads do the same thing as them, thus giving the slot to Dreadknights. I would be interested in Purgation squads if they were moved in say... Troop slot.

Then they would compete with Strike Squads.
Not everyone plays with three Dreadknights.
The only real issue I have with them that they have Night Fighting witch is useless most of the time.
It is also depends on how you use them, just one 5 man squad in a Razorback or ADL with a Quad Gun in a good place for them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Psienesis wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.


Which would make them non-viable, no? If the unit they compete against for that slot is an auto-include, then the Purgation squad simply might as well not exist.

One Dreadknight is an Auto-Take for me, but not 3.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:28:04


Post by: Envihon


 Psienesis wrote:
So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.


But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:33:42


Post by: Anpu42


 Envihon wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.


But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

True, they were not as good as they were, but is can still some uses for them. I will have to play test them a few times before tossing them aside. I still would like a Squad of them, for completeness sake if anything else.
Also Every Codex has one Unit that is not as good as the others and Purgation Squad seem to be that, but one unit does not make the Internal Balance within a Codex an issue, even one with this few units.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:40:00


Post by: Envihon


 Anpu42 wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.


But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

True, they were not as good as they were, but is can still some uses for them. I will have to play test them a few times before tossing them aside. I still would like a Squad of them, for completeness sake if anything else.
Also Every Codex has one Unit that is not as good as the others and Purgation Squad seem to be that, but one unit does not make the Internal Balance within a Codex an issue, even one with this few units.


That is true. I really like the Purgation Squads too. I always thought that Astral Aim was an awesome ability. It is a shame that they have just become a glorified GKSS that can take more heavy weapons. I don't think we will see our Dreadnoughts being fielded anytime soon either. The loss of psybolt ammo hit them hard and they are basically as good as any other SM Dreadnought now. It is a shame really.

That being said, I don't think the GK codex is as cut and dry as some have made it but I do think there are two distinctive styles of play now. Nemesis Strike Force utilizing deep strike and the shunt or the Purifier spam known from last edition with options to stick them in tin cans and run them over or utilizing the allies matrix to take SW allies and drop pod the Purifiers in.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 21:46:29


Post by: Anpu42


 Envihon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.


But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

True, they were not as good as they were, but is can still some uses for them. I will have to play test them a few times before tossing them aside. I still would like a Squad of them, for completeness sake if anything else.
Also Every Codex has one Unit that is not as good as the others and Purgation Squad seem to be that, but one unit does not make the Internal Balance within a Codex an issue, even one with this few units.


That is true. I really like the Purgation Squads too. I always thought that Astral Aim was an awesome ability. It is a shame that they have just become a glorified GKSS that can take more heavy weapons. I don't think we will see our Dreadnoughts being fielded anytime soon either. The loss of psybolt ammo hit them hard and they are basically as good as any other SM Dreadnought now. It is a shame really.

That being said, I don't think the GK codex is as cut and dry as some have made it but I do think there are two distinctive styles of play now. Nemesis Strike Force utilizing deep strike and the shunt or the Purifier spam known from last edition with options to stick them in tin cans and run them over or utilizing the allies matrix to take SW allies and drop pod the Purifiers in.

The Dreadnaught is not as bad as they look. Yes we did loose S8 Auto-Cannons, but they can still pull off a 6++ Save and add a Warp Charge. I do have two thoughts on how to use them.
>Sky-Shield Landing Pad: Put him on there with Shields up and with Sanctuary pull off a 3++ Save.
>Stormraven Assault: Just unleashed him with a Close Combat load out along with Purifiers and Crowe followed by 3 Cleansing Flames and an Assault.


Have you noticed how little The End is Nigh there has been on the new GK book? @ 2014/09/24 22:17:18


Post by: Envihon


Huh, that Stormraven assault is an interesting way to play them allowing for a delivery method for the Purifiers and giving some armor to help out the Purifiers. I would love to hear if that would work. I might take some Purifiers in my next game.