Found this quote in the GW life cycle thread and thought it was a great idea!
Who else is part of the reason GW took a dive in sales and profit this year?
I'm part of the reason because I used to spend £50-100 a month on GW stuff - books, paint, models etc...
BUT with the move to 7th edition I have really lost interest in GW. Prices are too high, new products seem a bit childish (murdefang) and I just feel they couldn't care less about me as a veteran gamer at all. Oh, they want my money but there seems no love for the game.
Anyone else feel this way?
Someone better at twitter campaigns take up the mantle and send this message to GW.
I started feeling that way in 6th, and then the quick turn around of 7th that I feel never fixed my issues with 6th just turned me off completely. So I relate to your feelings completely.
But I feel a twitter campaign is being abit over dramatic. I just spend my money on other things, and games. It's not that big a deal that GW doesn't offer people like us a compelling product anymore. Just give money to companies that do.
If you need ideas for other games to play just PM me, lol
A smallish group of people (those dissatisfied with a particular manufacturer) within a niche hobby (tabletop wargaming) within a niche hobby (traditional gaming) I doubt could move the twitter needle. If you're unhappy about something, write a real letter to GW on real paper. I've always gotten the impression that someone actually reads the mail that arrives at GWHQ.
OP and the others whom may post similar musings, take note:
Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning
teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are
otiose in a niche.
#impartofthereason because the only GW I've bought this year was Space Hulk (from an indy for 10% off RRP), 3 drinks & meal @ WHW, and a tape measure, whilst I've spend about as much every month on competitors stuff (Battlefront, Warlord, West Wind, SodaPop, Avatars Of War, Wyrd, Corvus Belli and Ramshackle Games).
I did buy a lot of Dwarfs for WHB but since my indy didn't get the army book in on time I bought infinity instead and shelfed the dwarfs. None of which were from GW either, so it's not as if I even play their games much.
I bought Space Hulk for the nostalgia factor, but I won't be buying the digital supplements and since they won't be releasing any real supplements my money is safe (I say safe, but I've just got hooked on Bolt Action, so I need to buy lots of Soviets).
For myself, I wouldn't say "I am part of the reason" because I am still buying from GW occassionally...just not directly (usually). Though I am definitely taking steps to move away from GW and envisage a point some time in the future (probably after the last Hobbit film and GW lets the LOTR SBG go OOP).
I recently got the 6th Ed 40K rulebook off ebay (only £11 ). I haven't liked what I've heard about 7th Ed so I won't be getting it. 6th is my final Edition.
Instead of quitting the game entirely, I'm aiming to complete my 40K army (Raven Guard) by collecting up to 4000pts or so. I only want a couple more things to complete the force (Vanguard Veterans, a Stalker and more Drop Pods - which I can get off eBay). I've considered starting 2nd & 3rd 40K armies in the past, like Chaos Space Marines (went so far as to get the 5th Ed book) and Dark Eldar (I'd really like a Wych army with Lililth Hesperax). But the prices and scale creep has put me off.
Instead, I just recently got the Gaunt's Ghosts set (Commissar Gaunt and Tanith Veterans) off eBay. I intend to supplement them with some Border World Rangers from Victoria Miniatures, so I can run a few veteran squads as allies alongside my Raven Guard (probably using 5th Ed rules or the Fandex by Chaos_Seer) instead of collecting a full blown Imperial Guard army. Plus it turns out that the Raven Guard were active in The Sabbat Worlds Crusade, as were the Tanith First and Only, so its a very fluffy combo. Both the Raven Guard and Gaunt's Ghosts specialist in stealth, so its not inconceivable that they would have worked together at some point.
I've got some WIP Anglo Saxons for SAGA/other historical games, and I've got some rulebooks for Bolt Action. Haven't yet decided which army to go for.
Point is, I'm not rage quitting, but I am planning to complete my collections so I can stop buying from GW, and instead start non-GW games.
I certainly used to throw about a thousand pounds a year on GW stuff up until the end of 5th. I was very disappointed in 6th, got my hopes up for 7th only to have them entirely dashed and much of what I disliked about in 6th doubled down on, then got excited for for the long awaited ork codex... and that put me through the floor. That disappointment didn't even cause anger in me, my interest just stopped. It was the weirdest thing, after so many years loving the game and figures and hating the corporate behavior and pricing... There wasn't anything. I'd bought some forgeworld stuff and it just sat on my desk untouched.
I am getting some interest back, gradually, a tiny amount. But unless something quite massive changes with the company, with the current frankly awful edition rules, I can't see me ever throwing huge swathes of my cash at it any more. It's quite sad really, given how much time and love I've put into these games. Whether GW is on it's last legs, drunkenly veering into wild attempts to glean every last penny or it's going to continue for another hundred glorious years, all I know is my interest is at perhaps the lowest it's been since I started collecting miniatures, at the age of 11, 27 years ago.
I am also keen to look into other options now, because we do find ourselves with many many choices of miniature ranges and games.
The last two things I've bought from GW were the IG codex and 6th ed rules.
Couldn't be arsed to shell out $100 for a minor game update so short after I bought the 6th ed rules. Sold my IG army. Now I'm rebuilding a smaller 3rd party force to keep around as a back up to my re-investment into Firestorm Armada and Planetfall shortly.
When it costs more to update my army with new units and rules than starting an entire new system with a tournament ready force, guess where my money is going.
I'd buy an army of Knights of the prices were easier to stomach. The FW variants are pretty slick, but $200+ is too steep for me now.
The last GW product I purchased was a box of Centurions to be hacked into Oblits for my long-suffering chaos army. That was when the box was released, however long ago that was. I haven't bought into 7th ed., nor have a purchased the new Ork codex. That's a zinger for me, as the ork books on my shelf go back to "Ere we go!", and anybody that has seen my man cave has seen the horde of greenskins on the shelves.
I'm out because GW has shown it's hand. They don't care. WHFB jumped the shark when the new edition encouraged little Timmy to field units of 50+ infantry, or 100 skavenslaves or night goblins. No thanks. I held out for 40k, until they started cutting old codices into multiple portions and $erving each up for it's own healthy price tag. Some of the new models look delicious, Nagash is gorgeous, and I'd *love* to chop up a Morkanaut or two and add them to the ranks, but at this point they'll never see a table or a game.
I know I'm beating a long dead horse here, and I haven't said anything new. I just vote with my wallet. Right now Spartan games is getting my 'fun money' budget, and I'm having a blast with my British, Russian, and Chinese fleets. I'm waiting for KD:M to ship, and between that, DW2.0, and my recently acquired Relic Knights minis, my gaming time is enjoyably occupied.
I was part of the reason once GW filed its complaint against Chapterhouse Studios. With the exception of one GW tape measure purchased because it was the only tape measure with centimeters available at hand, I haven't purchased a single GW product since 2011.
It has been a bit over two years since I last bought a GW model, and I am still taking one day at a time.
The Auld Grump, aw, who am I kidding, I have just switched addictions to cheaper drugs miniatures. Mantic had the first dose for free....
So I'm guessing you must not have an addiction to quality then
To be fair, I'll never understand the attraction that people have to Mantic's models. I tried with Deadzone. I really did.
I'd say I have an addicton to quality models, which is why I'm part of the reason.
I'm spending far more than I care to admit these days and most of it is going to infinity, historicals or places like Noctuna and Scale 75.
I still spend money on GW products, I picked up space hulk from my FLGS, I've been nabbing up old LotR model before they're gone for good and my local blackshirt is actually a cool guy so I try to get into his monthly painting comp. But really GW are getting maybe a fifth of my hobby budget.
Oh, especially when you factor in kickstaters, I have over a thousand dollars worth of stuff I'm hoping to have by the end of the year between Arena Rex and Toughest Girls in the Galaxy.
I bought a 3000 point CSM army in 2013 and a 2000 point IG in 2014 before 7th edition dropped. Now I'm spending what I would have spent on Infinity and WMH. Vote with your wallet people.
I bought Space Hulk. That's it. And that's all I'll be buying. It's a great game with great models, and I feel it's still great value. But things like the stupid Logan Sled? Bad value for a crap model. I feel sorry for anyone with crap taste enough to enjoy that plastic abortion.
I don't want to be part of the reason, but I have been for some 10 years, barring two times during that period. I just can't support a game with such a lousy company behind it. I even stopped going to a FLGS that had only 40k going on, because they offered nothing else to me and I refused to get in on 40k after seeing how bad things had become.
Given they have no active twitter presence(their last tweets are from February, at best, and I think most of those are Feb of earlier years), a twitter campaign would be less than useless.
Not me, I buy a lot, and in fact I'm currently beginning a Beastmen army and much of it will be bought retail. I buy paints and supplies from third-parties however. Models are all GW, with the exception of a few proxies/scratchbuilds.
Years ago I used to spend vast money stocks on GW product. From my First Tau battle force right down to the special edition Guardsmen. Over time I began to realize how terrible the company is, but I kept giving them chances. I then decided on a whim to simply sell it all and rebuild my army from scratch using non GW bits. The army has grown but my love for 40k has not.
Now I have joy in my hobby. Due to the huge cost of GW product in NZ its actually cheaper for me to buy 2 basic armies, all the rule books and more spare models to play Bolt Action, than it is to start a GW army. For a little more than half the cost of a GW army I got a FoW army. For the cost of a GW army I got a huge fleet AND a Planet Fall army plus terrain and extra books for the Firestorm Games.
I spend more money than I used to but get more for my money. Now my main concern is space.
The above is how I became part of the reason.
I mean, when one single Cadian costs $4.44 USD roughly (I think), the other wargames seem very cheap overall. Especially when you look at the Cadian model itself.
In a way, im kind of glad. If GW where cheaper then I may not have tried other games simply because nobody else would. But pricing and quality all changed that.
timetowaste85 wrote: I bought Space Hulk. That's it. And that's all I'll be buying. It's a great game with great models, and I feel it's still great value. But things like the stupid Logan Sled? Bad value for a crap model. I feel sorry for anyone with crap taste enough to enjoy that plastic abortion.
I like that plastic abortion so much that if I ever add land speeders to my space Wolves theure all going to be on sleds too.
Hell no, just finalised my Chaos Space Marines Army List and half way finishing off and i'll be expanding over to an Undead Army with that stunning Nagash figure.
Far from pulling back I am expanding. I'll still get my stuff from overseas and bypass the local market. GW still gets my money.
I bought some SM bundles this year which were good value from a US discounter ($24 for 10 new tac marines), I hope that helps show them we want their stuff when they play ball, even if they're still on the steep end of the spectrum.
Other than that #impartoffthereason and have no intent of purchasing any GW rulebooks, novels or models. Perhaps FFG40k rulebooks but again that's similar to the bundle purchases - they're great books with great fluff and rules at good prices. You have to speak with your wallet - imo that does also involve purchasing things when they *are* reasonable, however rare that may be. Though even massively discounted a lot of GW stuff is still way overpriced so you have to be careful. If GW want my $3-$5K a year on hobby purchases they're going to have to do a lot better. Until then Mantic, FFG and a number of other companies are now getting the entire share, not just the lions share as in the last couple years.
nanook wrote: Found this quote in the GW life cycle thread and thought it was a great idea!
Who else is part of the reason GW took a dive in sales and profit this year?
I'm part of the reason because I used to spend £50-100 a month on GW stuff - books, paint, models etc...
BUT with the move to 7th edition I have really lost interest in GW. Prices are too high, new products seem a bit childish (murdefang) and I just feel they couldn't care less about me as a veteran gamer at all. Oh, they want my money but there seems no love for the game.
Anyone else feel this way?
Someone better at twitter campaigns take up the mantle and send this message to GW.
with in 1 week of 7th ed rules coming out. I read maybe half, then dumped it on ebay along w/ all my armies except one.
I'm part of the reason since I realised WH/40K rules were all about listbuilding, and persisting in fiddling about with gratuitous nitpicky details despite driving players to buy ever more and increasingly expensive models.
I think the last major retail purchases I made were the 40K fifth ed Battle for Black Reach(?) box, the ork codex, and a discounted ork battleforce. Most of those are still lying around on sprues. Since then the number of model purchases I made from the local GW shop can be counted on the fingers of one hand, so few that I can remember them all: a plastic nurgle champion, a plastic wight king, a finecast Crom (ironically in good condition), a box of Empire knights, and a box of LotR dwarf warriors. Include indy discounts and you can add a box of HE shadow warriors/sisters of avelorn. (and that because I had thoughts of sculpting and selling vaguely feminine legs bits for aall those leftover sisters bits in the box)
I've definitely made a big move away from GW. Pricing was my main complaint. I've bought a few things - the SM book, the Inquisition ebook and one of the plastic dwarf characters - but it's been vastly outnumbered by spending on Deadzone and now Bolt Action. I still play 40K, as well, it's just that I use the models I already have.
I was ready to buy the 7th edition rules, but I realised I would rather buy Deadzone stuff - getting the entire Rebel range, one of the expansion books and the second wave cards for about the same price. For that game all you need is a faction starter box and straight away you can make multiple lists.
And as for Bolt Action, if you buy a box of plastic infantry you've got a legal army there (1 officer and two infantry squads) for less than the price of a Tactical Squad. Only useable in tiny games, but it still works. When my most recent order arrives my 1000 point BA army will be done for the time being, and I'll have got it and the rulebook for a total of £106 (and that's using Warlord minis, not even buying from cheaper ranges).
The main disadvantages 40K has against these two games are price and rules. Now that it's more like 28mm Epic and the rules have ballooned so much, you're spending a small fortune for an army and then games can last for an entire afternoon. I've started looking at games with a lower barrier to entry and more accessible rules.
When I eventually get into Bolt Action, I'm going to get a couple of the ~£50 army deals (Fallschirmjagers + Panzer Grenadiers for a Band of Brothers Battle of Carentan themed force) and a couple Stugs, Panzers and Tigers, all in one or two big bulk purchase (local FLGS does a big discount for bulk purchases)
That'll come to around £200, but it'll probably be the equivalent of an Apocalypse sized force and I won't ever need to expand again.
An equivalent sized collection for 40K would probably be upwards of at least £500.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: When I eventually get into Bolt Action, I'm going to get a couple of the ~£50 army deals (Fallschirmjagers + Panzer Grenadiers for a Band of Brothers Battle of Carentan themed force) and a couple Stugs, Panzers and Tigers, all in one or two big bulk purchase (local FLGS does a big discount for bulk purchases)
That'll come to around £200, but it'll probably be the equivalent of an Apocalypse sized force and I won't ever need to expand again.
An equivalent sized collection for 40K would probably be upwards of at least £500.
I dropped $200 on bolt action recently with a promotion and it was an excellent purchase. Great quality models, far better price and most importantly, good looking rules. 150 infantry and 6 tanks/APCs... can't complain about that! (admittedly, a very good promotion that is now over hehe)
With the dwendling player base where i am and the fact that i can no longer afford to even pay 5$ for a single bottle of paint without feeling like im being ripped off has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I have a WM/H army, 2 40k armies and a lot of RPG stuff.
Im looking at P3, Vallajo and other paints but i havent found any i like yet. we'll see if i can find one that works.
Im switching my money over to RPG and FFGs items. GW earned the most out of my friends this years via me with a new chimera for my birthday. Otherwise i go to ebay. Although its second hand, i still prefer it over spending my money directly.
timetowaste85 wrote: I bought Space Hulk. That's it. And that's all I'll be buying. It's a great game with great models, and I feel it's still great value. But things like the stupid Logan Sled? Bad value for a crap model. I feel sorry for anyone with crap taste enough to enjoy that plastic abortion.
I'm going to be "that person" and disagree, I actually think the sled works for what the Wolves are, and their Viking influences. Then again my favorite Batman movie is the Adam West one so my tastes are admittedly not the best. I mean the Exorcist tank is what sold me on playing Sisters (or as I like to explain it to people "it's a tank, with a church organ on top that fires missiles! ").
Some of us just like cheesy things and can't help it.
I wanted to support my FLGS and picked up 40K again. Interest has grown there with the drop of 7th ed and there's a regular group of players that all seem cool. Plus, Eldar. Still enjoy painting them after all these years and I really like the variety of units.
I wanted to support my FLGS and picked up 40K again. Interest has grown there with the drop of 7th ed and there's a regular group of players that all seem cool. Plus, Eldar. Still enjoy painting them after all these years and I really like the variety of units.
I was almost in this boat, but instead I support a different FLGS that has Warmachine every weekend. So I don't have to spend money supporting a rubbish game, no matter how good the figures are.
I've sold my armies and bought heavily into Warmachine and Infinity. Not only does GW not get a cent from me anymore, but I try to steer people away from it when I can.
I'm part of the reason. I haven't played GW since March 2013, I've got a mass of stuff that I'm no longer enthusiastic about building or painting. So I sell my stuff on eBay or trade it off for other things. Others buy my stuff 2nd hand instead of straight from GW. GW doesn't make a sale, hence I'm part of the reason.
I bought 6th edition after my daughter turned one. For a year or so I didn't have the cash to do much hobby stuff due to the high cost of bringing up a child. Anyway, end of 2013, daughter was out of nappies and child costs went down leaving me with more hobby money. I started up a 40k daemon army and even popped into the local GW store now and then for a chat. Then just as I was getting up to speed with the rules, bang, 7th edition.
I never got to play 6th and feel I just wasted my money on the big rule book. I've not been to the store or bought anything GW since. Still painting the back-log of what I own though and will still be reading Black Library books.
cincydooley wrote: I'm a bigger part of the problem than I initially said.
I've purchased quite a bit from Forge World and Black Library in lieu of "regular" Games Workshop items.
I do wonder how much of GW's total profits come from FW these days. It seems a lot of veteran players, who either enjoy or dislike the current GW, seem happy to invest in FW products (not that I blame them, a lot of what FW is putting out these days is steller IMO).
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome. Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers. Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
Cant discount moderation
Sometimes modzies are a thing.
That and extremely like minded people congregating together in a selective manner.
Personally, I haven't bought any GW miniatures in about 18 months. In that time, the only GW product I purchased was the new Dwarf Army Book. I fully plan on finishing up a new Dwarf Army, but all the minis will be either AoW or Metal Beards.
While the newest edition of 40K hasn't really inspired me to start playing again, I'm willing to give the new DR codex a chance to see if it can regain my interest.
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RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
The only 2 GW things I have purchased in the last year are the Tyranid codex and a box of Bloodletters. I have only been playing sonce 2010 and they have already alienated me. I still play, mostly because my playgroup has a lot of old gamers that have literally thousands of GW models and don't want to buy into a whole new game. Even they have pretty much stopped buying the gw stuff, however; opting for "alternate" models of far eastern origins. After the abomination that was the 'Nid codex, i can state that I will never buy a GW rulebook or codex again, after getting charged a premium price for basically 80% copy/paste - fool me once and all that jazz . As far as models, even when I buy I stay on Ebay/3rd party. After the mess that was the financial report, I am really wanting to get out of GW entirely, but even the members of my group that have dropped GW have not gone to another tabletop game, but have instead gotten into board games, which only minimally interest me. I am really wanting to try Malifaux, however. I am considering buying 2 starter crews and the rulebook (for about the same as one battleforce it seems like) just to get the others to try without any buy in.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
That's all well and good in another industry but this is an immensely social and community driven hobby and GW rely on word of mouth as advertisment.
I've personally convinced at least a couple of friends not to start warhammer and a third to start infinity alongside his 40k. That's a lot of money GW is missing out on because I am dissatisfied and making noise about it.
If us unhappy people spread our experiences 10 times more than happy people GW should be focusing on maintaining at least 11 times as many happy customers as unhappy. At the moment it seems more like they expect us to buy anything they release without a second thought so why bother trying to keep us happy.
Look at it this way - when the biggest third party online seller of Games Workshop products in Australia says their Games Workshop sales have shrunk to 15% of their total sales over recent years, and that Dystopian Wars second edition was outselling 7th edition 40k7 to 1, Games Workshops flagship title, there's something wrong at least on this continent.
Yeah, I've barely bought anything since...six ed? I bought new books for armies I played, even the Warboss edition codex (which shipped WITHOUT its custom number properly printed)...even a box of Greatswords, which used to seem really overpriced but now actually feels quite affordable compared to their other offerings.
For funzies, I made a "wish list" spread sheet of all the models I would want in various games (along with their MSRP...the idea was to be able to have a quick reference if I could get a deal on something I wanted.) Even though my expansions for GW stuff were relatively modest, they were still the most expensive. I can practically buy the rest of the decent Cygnar faction models I don't own for a unit of Ironbreakers and some Gyros.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
That's a logical fallacy.
It is fair to assume that one negative comment probably represents three to four similar experiences whereas one positive comment probably represents eight to ten similar experiences. It is fallacious, however, to infer positive experiences from negative feedback.
At the end of the day, GW is having an increasingly difficult time concealing its hemorrhaging of customers. The financial reports are what they are, and have been painting a consistent picture for the past five years at least. And with the way that GW treats independent retailers, many will be happy to see GW's products eclipsed by competitors. As a lot of these responses have indicated, GW's loss of a customer does not usually equate to the industry's loss of a customer. In fact, the TTG market is growing fast and hard, with at least double digit growth each of the past several years, which is really fast growth.
GW's market share is being nibbled off by a rapidly expanding pool of competitors. Personally, my hobby expenditures have increased exponentially in the years since I stopped buying from GW, and have been spread to an increasingly diversified number of businesses. In short, I am buying more miniatures from more companies because there are more and better products available every year. That's a good thing for the industry.
What do the people posting in this thread #I'mNOTpartofthereason think of GW as a company in 2014 compared to the completely different entity that existed even 10 or 12 years ago? And which do they prefer? Which of those companies actually engaged with its fanbase, offered a wide variety of games for sale, supported tournaments and proper events etc?
The point I want to mention is that I don't think a monopoly is good for the customer in any industry. GW arguably came pretty close to monopolising sci-fi-fantasy wargaming, and you could say that a lot of their less popular policies in the last decade are based on the assumption that the customer, wanting to play sci-fi or fantasy games, has no other option than to buy from GW. I think really that is the only way to explain some of the jumps in price, the production of a low quality replacement of metal, the dropping of games and reduction in places to play, the RoW ban, the hard-line policies on independent sellers.. I could go on.
People turning to other games (or perhaps quitting altogether) will perhaps ultimately be a good thing for both GW and the industry. Money talks, and no matter how introverted and incompetent the upper management they will be forced to look at the reasons why the profits of the company have dropped. They might start trying to do more than increase frequency of re-launches and bolt-on DLC, and we could ultimately end up with a better GW once more. A return to imagination and creativity in terms of the products they release, let their rules and story writers do more than just regurgitate material, actually put the 'games' back into Games Workshop.
So, I think being a conscientious shopper, telling GW what they are doing right and doing wrong, ultimately that's good for everyone and even GW ultimately.
I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.
So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.
Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.
So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.
THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.
I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.
I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.
monders wrote: I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.
So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.
Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.
So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.
THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.
I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.
I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.
Wait, O;I box set threw you off? How? That thing's amazing. There's never been a better time to start Infinity.
monders wrote: I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.
So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.
Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.
So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.
THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.
I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.
I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.
Wait, O;I box set threw you off? How? That thing's amazing. There's never been a better time to start Infinity.
No, I meant I'm glad I didn't throw money at the current V2 rules and old PO starter set.
I may not be too clear as I'm giddy as a kipper about picking up my O:I set tomorrow!
jonolikespie wrote:I think he meant it as a good thing. Icestorm could be what kills his remaining interest in GW.
monders wrote: I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.
So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.
Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.
So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.
THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.
I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.
I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.
Wait, O;I box set threw you off? How? That thing's amazing. There's never been a better time to start Infinity.
No, I meant I'm glad I didn't throw money at the current V2 rules and old PO starter set.
I may not be too clear as I'm giddy as a kipper about picking up my O:I set tomorrow!
jonolikespie wrote:I think he meant it as a good thing. Icestorm could be what kills his remaining interest in GW.
Yep!
LOL! I misunderstood that one. My apologies. Glad you're excited about a game. I love that feeling.
monders wrote: I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.
So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.
This is the boat that I'm in, I backed the Mantic KoW and Deadzone Kickstarters and have been greatly disappointed with anything not in plastic (and even the Men at Arms in plastic). Then I've dealt with the constantly mispacked boxes and missing pieces, etc. Mantic is certainly not for me.
I tried Warmachine and got into Cryx; I like the models, the fluff and the gameplay but nobody in my area wants to play.
Most people in my area are now into XWing and I have zero interest in this game. I realize that it's still in its relative infancy but there is nealy no variety; if I got into a spaceship game, I'd be more interested in STAW but noone here plays that.
I'm lucky in that I'm somewhat spoilt for choice. There is a store that has 40k, but I found a comic shop near where I used to live (not far from where I live now) that has a thriving Warmachine community, like a dozen or more people all having fun every Saturday. So outside of the occasional morbid curiosity I have zero reason to play 40k again since I can play better game with friendlier people and not feel totally drained because it's on the weekends and I don't have work (the 40k store plays during the week, so I'd be leaving work and going to play and not getting home until late).
So much in fact that I'm going to look at becoming a Press Ganger for Privateer Press.
#I'mpartofthereason for sure. In total I have bought three GW products this year and I am currently awaiting the third order to come through this Thursday. It will spell the end of me buying GW kits from GW stores. They are just too damn expensive, especially when for the price of one of their tanks I can purchase a highly detailed historical kit with full interior detailing and some extra detail packs for it at 1:35th scale.
I try to go every friday to my flgs because that's when I find the other warmachine players. Last friday there were four WM players and two 40k players. By being regular with WM I'm helping others get games in more often. That will bring more attention to WM in my area and bring in more players.
It's not my fault 40K is a crappy game and not fun to play.
It's not my fault GW doesn't know how to write rules clearly and concisely.
It's not my fault GW doesn't know how to edit properly.
It's not my fault GW new layout for codices are bland and uninspiring.
It's not my fault GW doesn't support their games.
It's not my fault GW limits what you can buy and have to buy online.
It's not my fault GW decides to change rule editions less than every 2 years.
It's not my fault GW has poor game developers who don't know what they are doing, and don't know how to write a good rules system and make proper fun codices.
It's not my fault GW doesn't know how to balance their game.
It's not my fault there is no value in what they produce.
It's not my fault I am more of a burden to GW than actually wanting me as a customer. Wait, maybe that is my fault. Heaven for bid, I want value in the products I purchase from GW and not have a hard time trying to buy them, and want great quality in their books and support when mistakes are made. Heaven forbid I want to have a game where I don't have to argue with someone how a rule works and just want to have a fun game.
It has been a bit over two years since I last bought a GW model, and I am still taking one day at a time.
The Auld Grump, aw, who am I kidding, I have just switched addictions to cheaper drugs miniatures. Mantic had the first dose for free....
So I'm guessing you must not have an addiction to quality then
To be fair, I'll never understand the attraction that people have to Mantic's models. I tried with Deadzone. I really did.
I have an addiction to value for money.
If you like GW, I take it that you do not share that addiction?
I have an addiction to quality rules.
If you like GW, I take it that is not a concern?
I have an addiction to balance between forces.
If you like GW, I take it that you do not care if some of the forces hasn't been updated in three editions or more?
I have an addiction to quality models, I play Mantic undead.
I take it that you have an addiction to a company that makes frivolous lwsuits, and has price increases far in excess of either inflation or even the rest of the hobby?
I do not share that addiction.
I take it that you have an addiction to management that ignores market forces, and boasts of that in their own financial reports?
I do not have that addiction.
You have an addiction to company that belittles their own customers?
If I had that addiction then I would be using an iPhone.
Enough said?
In other words, I have weighed the merits of GW vs Mantic, and found GW badly wanting.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
But to be fair Dakka is a fairly cynical forum. Our motto is that we love Warhammer but hate GW. There are happy 40K forums out there, but they're just white knights.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.
Dismissing other people's opinions as 'trolling' doesn't somehow remove the problems GW are facing.
I'm not part of the reason yet. I've spent between $1,200-1,500 on GW since 7th was released. However, the last tournament I played in left a bad taste in my mouth and my GW is in the process of looking for a new manager so I started WMH. I played a tournament at the GW where everything was allowed and we only used rulebook missions. I went up against a necron player using the c'tan. Even with my list that's capable of top tens at major tournaments, I got slaughtered. It was 3 turns of rules lawyering and me picking up models so I conceded and won't be back for the next round. Myself and another guy are typically the top 40k guys in the area and after speaking to him, he's starting WMH also. We're slowly going to convert our 20-25 strong 40k group over to WMH. Considering we were the ones keeping the local GW alive (old manager said our core group was 80% of his revenue), if we all switch to WMH that store won't be around much longer.
I have come to the conclusion that it is not the people that have stopped buying GW products that are the problem - it is the ever shrinking pool of white knights, that give GW a vocal minority that they can agree with.
And that GW tunes out the ever growing pool of disgruntled gamers....
I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....
It is strange... I cannot help but compare what GW is doing with what WotC did with D&D 4e... and seeing that at least WotC took steps to correct the problems.
If I were to guess which company would still be here in ten years... I would not make even odds on GW, but feel fairly confident that WotC will still be around.
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.
Dismissing other people's opinions as 'trolling' doesn't somehow remove the problems GW are facing.
I didn't dismiss anyone's opinion. At all.
It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAuldGrump wrote: I have come to the conclusion that it is not the people that have stopped buying GW products that are the problem - it is the ever shrinking pool of white knights, that give GW a vocal minority that they can agree with.
Or, as if on queue, someone would jump in to call that positive "white knighting."
I didn't dismiss a single opinion. Read my comment, which was on direct response to "unhappy people make the most noise"
Perhaps I should be specified that I meant "start a thread about positive GW experiences?" I assumed that would be inferred, as there's not that much nuance of language in there, but clearly not.
I again clarified in my following post when I said:
It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.
So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:
I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.
cincydooley wrote: So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:
I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.
You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?
cincydooley wrote: So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:
I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.
You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?
History??! What's that?!?! Links or it didn't happen. OH WAIT....
Automatically Appended Next Post: But seriously this is kind of a bash thread. A couple of pages ago it started off constructive enough, not the GW people would read anything from Dakka. By page 3 it's just CHAOS!!!!
cincydooley wrote: I didn't dismiss a single opinion. Read my comment, which was on direct response to "unhappy people make the most noise"
Perhaps I should be specified that I meant "start a thread about positive GW experiences?" I assumed that would be inferred, as there's not that much nuance of language in there, but clearly not.
I again clarified in my following post when I said:
It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.
So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:
I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.
I see a lot of positive comments in the DakkaDakka modeling blogs but those do not count off course right?
RunicFIN wrote: Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.
In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.
The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.
Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.
I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.
Dismissing other people's opinions as 'trolling' doesn't somehow remove the problems GW are facing.
I didn't dismiss anyone's opinion. At all.
It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.
Hyperbole aside, if you post a thread about something on a discussion forum, you have to expect views from the opposite side. It's a discussion, after all. What you're expecting is a circlejerk.
cincydooley wrote: So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:
I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.
You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?
History??! What's that?!?! Links or it didn't happen. OH WAIT....
Automatically Appended Next Post: But seriously this is kind of a bash thread. A couple of pages ago it started off constructive enough, not the GW people would read anything from Dakka. By page 3 it's just CHAOS!!!!
That tends to be the way of things in, well, all aspects of life. The loudest and most outspoken tend to drown out the more moderate and less adamant folks.
I don't really want to be part of the reason, but I will say that I've largely dropped off the GW radar. I haven't been down with the shift to more models in games with bigger units making the rest of the army less important to the overall battle.
I want something bigger than a skirmish- 3rd edition of 40k did that well. The game kept inflating and each new edition/codex lowered the points of models a bit, and everyone cheered for their respective armies with all the new toys they could field. But the end result is we now have massive armies that I frankly don't have the patience to play with/against. These armies now represent the status quo, it''s what people expect when you go into a store.
All of this would be tolerable if it didn't feel like GW was raking you for every dollar and penny at any possible occasion. Release of 7th edition, only two years after 6th, was a sour pill to swallow, regardless of the state of 6th edition (a state GW put themselves into, mind you). The new rulebook was almost as expensive as the collector's edition from two years before, and the codexes all went up to $50. I just decided I didn't want to keep buying the books, and without a viable other option (people don't really play old editions, although I always keep the idea in mind), the game has slipped away more and more.
I want to finish up my Dark Eldar and Ork armies, but I don't know if I'll ever get around to it now.
cincydooley wrote: So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:
I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.
You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?
Oh snap!
I made a list of links of posts somewhere that showed all the threads derailed by the negativity of GW apologists.
Also, no one's trying to "antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong." You're reading a lot of toxicity in there that simply isn't so. You're taking criticisms of GW and 40k and assuming they're hateful and so you're dismissing what they're actually saying. If you think the above is what they're saying, you have a reading comprehension problem.
I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....
The ones that know what they are doing have been working to address the writing on the wall for several years now. They have begun to transition into whole miniatures, self-sustaining lines, unique fictional universes, and even their own games. Just look at Anvil Industries as an example, and MaxiMini's Green Alliance Kickstarter.
I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....
The ones that know what they are doing have been working to address the writing on the wall for several years now. They have begun to transition into whole miniatures, self-sustaining lines, unique fictional universes, and even their own games. Just look at Anvil Industries as an example, and MaxiMini's Green Alliance Kickstarter.
I was thinking about this as well.
But also in terms of FLGS that heavily rely on GW products. I hope they start diversifying their selection and building up alternative communities. My FLGS (the best one I've ever seen, FTW Games/Spiky bits...no, I don't work for them, they're just that awesome) is trying to build up their warmachine, heroclix and Relic Knight. They're running demos of Relic Knights and it seems to be going pretty good.
I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....
The ones that know what they are doing have been working to address the writing on the wall for several years now. They have begun to transition into whole miniatures, self-sustaining lines, unique fictional universes, and even their own games. Just look at Anvil Industries as an example, and MaxiMini's Green Alliance Kickstarter.
I want GW to continue in a nice orderly decline so their market share can get transfered to the smaller competitors that do want to know what the market wants.
Anvil's stuff is awesome. I'm a huge Kromlech fan as well.
Because of basically everything listed on here I take the utmost steps to avoid giving money to GW. The only time I buy their stuff new and direct is via Forge World who I don't feel bad for rewarding with my funds. Otherwise, it's second hand and 3rd party. Or Malifaux.
The only reason I'll stick with building and painting my marines is that they offer a level of customisation I have yet to experience with another model range (even within the GW product line).
#impartofthereason
When 5th was ending I had three armies, regularly played 40K, bought new stuff monthly - I have bought one model since 6th ed was released, played 3 games and bought lots of other companies miniatures.
GW´s sales are affected by competitors and the fact their miniatures have existed for over 20 years ( yes, a portion of their profit shrinks continously as people own more and more models, not having to buy all new ones, and more of them are sold and bought second hand.) Alternative bitz manufacturers and recasters also take their slice. Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.
Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.
Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.
RunicFIN wrote: Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.
Does the fact of the wargames industry's growth in the last few years need to be trotted out again?
Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.
People are buying fewer GW products. They're buying more of other wargames and minis. I don't think this is because they're ecstatic with GW stuff.
Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.
I think we're closer to the real reason for this little rebuttal, here. Nasty people said mean things about 40K.
Go through all this topic again. All these people aren't leaving GW in droves because it's 'kewl' to suddenly hate the games they play and the miniature collections they've painstakingly built up. I'm guessing most would gladly stay and continue, I know I would; but there are lots and lots of reasons why they can't and won't. They've been stated many times. Try reading and understanding a few of them before handwaving it all away as 'haterz'.
Does the fact of the wargames industry's growth in the last few years need to be trotted out again?
All other industries that have experienced general growth are still affected by economical decline, just like this one. Growth is a thing of scale, and a bad economical situation still affects things negatively. GW is also in a different position than other manufacturers - they have grown ages ago. It´s easier to grow the smaller you are, because growth is a thing of scale. In humble beginnings a hundred sold kits is a big deal. Later it´s nothing, and merely covers a fraction of production costs and so on. The amount of buyers of your product -always- scales down when you reach a certain treshold, you can´t keep selling 100% of your production capability forever, as the amount of people ( of which a certain % are your customers ) on the planet doesn´t multiply in ratio to your companys size, and no amout of good marketing, customer care and whatnot will make it so. Not to say it hurts to do those things right, but still. At some point a business will reach it´s highest point, and the going gets tougher.
Vermis wrote: People are buying fewer GW products. They're buying more of other wargames and minis. I don't think this is because they're ecstatic with GW stuff.
Or they could just be interested in other things aswell, or wanting a change despite being content in GW´s games too. There´s a lot of reasons you can buy other manufacturers miniatures. And I believe people still buy "more of GW´s minis" than many others, if you look at sales reports of different leading wargaming companies.
Vermis wrote: I think we're closer to the real reason for this little rebuttal, here. Nasty people said mean things about 40K.
Go through all this topic again. All these people aren't leaving GW in droves because it's 'kewl' to suddenly hate the games they play and the miniature collections they've painstakingly built up. I'm guessing most would gladly stay and continue, I know I would; but there are lots and lots of reasons why they can't and won't. They've been stated many times. Try reading and understanding a few of them before handwaving it all away as 'haterz'.
Didn´t respond to anyone in this thread per say, just a some general pointers that came to mind. So no need to re-read, I know the reasons, and they are numerous. I´ve followed different wargaming communities for over 13 years and been a part of them, it´s always the same. It always will be. This same continous trend has been ongoing for over ten years. I´ wonder if it ever gets old on a community-wide level.
RunicFIN wrote: GW´s sales are affected by competitors and the fact their miniatures have existed for over 20 years ( yes, a portion of their profit shrinks continously as people own more and more models, not having to buy all new ones, and more of them are sold and bought second hand.) Alternative bitz manufacturers and recasters also take their slice. Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.
Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.
Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.
You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page For the record, until very recently I loved 40k. LOVED IT. I was an avid SOB player and had a good SM force as well. Been playing since RT days of yonder. I wanted to love the game but GW gave me many reasons not to.
RunicFIN wrote: GW´s sales are affected by competitors and the fact their miniatures have existed for over 20 years ( yes, a portion of their profit shrinks continously as people own more and more models, not having to buy all new ones, and more of them are sold and bought second hand.) Alternative bitz manufacturers and recasters also take their slice. Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.
Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.
Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.
You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page For the record, until very recently I loved 40k. LOVED IT. I was an avid SOB player and had a good SM force as well. Been playing since RT days of yonder. I wanted to love the game but GW gave me many reasons not to.
Indeed. I haven't even sold my 40k stuff. I just haven't bought anything recently. I'm quite willing to play the game again if GW fix their rules and start being sane about international pricing.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Loki. I haven't sold any of my GW stuff...well, I have reduced my original army projects from 3 to 2...and then I wasn't impressed with the new trotting out of rules with higher and higher costs in such short order, and so I just never made it to 7th.
And as it stands, it doesn't even seem like 7th is that bad a system...but I don't like feeling like I'm being nicke'd and dime'd with every new purchase, where the costs are always premium and you never have all of the things you need.
-Loki- wrote: Indeed. I haven't even sold my 40k stuff. I just haven't bought anything recently. I'm quite willing to play the game again if GW fix their rules and start being sane about international pricing.
Pretty much same here. I love the stuff I have. Financially I'm doing the best that I ever have, I spend at least a couple hundred on miniatures/entertainment twice a month (paychecks). But I haven't bought a GW product in about 16 months. There are a couple of reasons
Reason 1 - GW Shenanigans. I'm tired of GW boning the international market and their vertical pricing evolution screwing the domestic retailers because of the direct order model. I'm tired of them chasing down and suing little companies for total BS reasons. I'm tired of not even being able to see a picture of a GW product on web retailers like Minimarket and TheWarStore, or use a shopping cart there because GW has some bug up its ass. I'd like to think the people I back with my wallet and my time aren't total asshats.
Reason 2 - I'm not seeing the value for the money in GW products like I used to. Plastic model airplane I bought in 1995 (Hasegawa $7.50), same model 2014 $9.00 vs. The Eldar Falcon 1995 (GW $25.00) same model in 2014 ($49.50)....why??? Eldar Wraithknight $115. Why? it's not articulated, no precolored or multicolored plastic, not snapfit (glueless), and has nothing going for it other than aesthetics (meaning that it's Eldar). In the past 16 months I've bought about 10 model robots all of comparable size from different companies (Bandai, Kotobukiya, etc) all of them were articulated, glueless, swappable weapons, with colored sprues (meaning paintless if you want), and all were a general treat to build. Price range generally $50.00 with the most expensive being $85.00. Cheaper actually ($25.00-$85.00) but since I'm using retail on the Wraithknight. They only thing they was they weren't a GW piece. But not being a GW piece didn't matter because I've passed up buying a Wraithknight about 30 times now. It's truly a great piece, but I'm having so much fun elsewhere.
I could wax intellectual for a page or two for sure, and I've tons more reasons than just the two I've cited and I think the community can relate with the two reasons I did cite, but instead I'm just going to say that I had an epiphany some time back. I'm trying new things in the wargaming hobby and I'm really enjoying myself.
I've been strongly suggesting to my friends not to buy directly from GW, and recommending other sites or at least Ebay. I myself have not brought 40K of any sort for almost a year now. As for a gaming system, I've been playing other TT games and RPGs. I now play Aetherverse instead of 40K (roping my housemates in as well, which has worked spectacularly) and all sorts of RPGs instead of Deathwatch - Call of Cthulhu, Steamcraft, Pathfinder, Fate and others.
Hey, I want to like GW games again. I like the models, the lore, and even the basic core of the rules. I don't like (in fact, I actively hate) many aspects of newer editions of the game, I think the money spent-to-value of product ratio is very out of whack, I think their strategy is incredibly flawed, and I think GW bites the hand that feeds them at every opportunity.
Just because I think other games have better rules, better models, or both, isn't some weird hipster-esque desire to not be mainstream, and I'm sure that goes for most players of non-GW games.
Heck, despite all the weak points of 40K, I was a bit tempted by the prospect of new Dark Eldar... until I saw that I'd have to buy $100 of Codecies to run a Haemonculus Coven, plus $72 per full unit of Wracks.
I don't hate on people who enjoy 40K and Fantasy. I do hate on people who hate on people for enjoying other things in an asinine manner, though, and I see a lot of that, from both sides. Unless you consider explaining why you don't like thing X or Y and/or like thing X or Y in a calm, rational, and informed manner "hating", of course.
Too many times I'll see a discussion of "I like X for (reason)." "Well, I don't like X for (reason)." 'YOU'RE OBJECTIVELY WRONG FOR NOT LIKING X FOR (REASON) BECAUSE (REASON) IS GREAT/NOT A BIG DEAL/CAN BE CIRCUMVENTED IN THIS FASHION" and then it all degenerates.
Anyway, I'm part of the reason (won't use hashtags because I'm a stubborn old man who hates twitter ). Don't like the direction GW games have taken, not a fan of their relationship with FLGS, don't think their general corporate culture is healthy. Last GW things I've purchased since I decided to give them up in 2011 have been a tape measure and five Black Library Publications (I do love the lore!). Played some Dark Heresy, Black Crusade, and Deathwatch. Picked up a copy of Space Marine. Quite happy with the other miniature games I collect and play, but I'm open to playing GW games again if I hear good news.
In 7th I have 2. I downsized two armies (keeping only certain models that I really liked). I won't go back to 40k unless they fix the rules and stop making it simpler with each edition (and then introduce exceptions in each codex to re-complicate it).
ah ha, I thought this thread was "I'm part of the reason GW makes dumb products, because I love dumb products."
You know that 40k started out as a very reasonably proportioned narrative skirmish game like the infinities and warmachines of the world, but with actually more hobby-integrity.
The reason for preposterous models and unbalanced rules is that while Citadel wanted people to play sophisticated asymmetrical scenarios with neutrally-controlled wild animal attacks and elaborate terrain, it turned out that the players wanted to make finely tuned "personal armies," that they could lie around fantasizing about their next purchase for and then occasionally bring down to a store to play against some people they barely know.
Accolade wrote: Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Loki. I haven't sold any of my GW stuff...well, I have reduced my original army projects from 3 to 2...and then I wasn't impressed with the new trotting out of rules with higher and higher costs in such short order, and so I just never made it to 7th.
And as it stands, it doesn't even seem like 7th is that bad a system...but I don't like feeling like I'm being nicke'd and dime'd with every new purchase, where the costs are always premium and you never have all of the things you need.
That's just my $0.02
I'm not sure I would go back. A month or two ago and I would say yes, but now I'm not sure. The santa sleigh is still out there. But really, they would have to make drastic and fundamental changes for me to go back.
Sigvatr wrote: I'll go buy anything from GW tomorrow just to protest against the stupid hashtags. I hate those.
#gobuyGWtomorrow
Thanks to GW practices i am now finding new systems and new miniature companies the fill price gap that GW has created.
If GW hadn't killed Necromunda, i wouldn't have gone to Infinity.
If GW prices weren't that high i wouldn't have started a Bolt action/Dust Tactics(warfare) army.
If Gw hadn't killed Battlefleet Gothic i wouldn't be interested in Armada.
The only thing i often still buy are the books from Black Library because i love the 40k fluff
How insecure do you have to be to translate 'here's why I don't like 40k anymore' into 'here's why you're stupid for liking 40k'? Or to equate some topics in Dakka Discussions with the entire forum? And to connect those with some kind of mass exodus that's apparent to someone with thirty-nine posts? Who posts here to tell us he's part of it and that's why he doesn't post here anymore...
Sorry to nitpick every little bit of your post. I know it's being pedantic. But... seriously. Like the last guy, I can only guess that you're lashing out.
As for 'different forums', it's like this on Warseer too, at least. The GW General board there is like Dakka Discussions here; the gathering point for people that posters on the game-specific boards dismiss as 'haters' because they're disillusioned with GW and dare to point out what's wrong with it and how bad the financial reports are. (And you want to see how some 'different forums' react to GW, put on a hazmat suit and look at Frothers, sometime)
On that note, I personally don't think you and people like you are stupid. I do think you're a bit blinkered, though - too willing to overlook the many obvious problems with GW. For us, those problems eventually outweighed the enjoyment. That's why we stopped buying. That's why we're part of the reason. You might be too, some day. That, or fiddle while GW burns.
You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.
Nah, I´m not. Just because it doesn´t happen in that thread doesn´t mean it doesn´t happen anywhere. I´m sorry but it just does, I´ve encountered such behaviour numerous times. Not to say everyone acts like that.
In any case, GW will probably continue to exist and end up fine, no matter how the 10 year old "GW is doomed and bad and this and that" makes it appear. Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.
Depends, since some people are indeed fine with the way things are. If they are content to beginwith and things don´t change in a way that they find unsavory, they will remain happy, ofcourse.
To me it seems 40K is taking a better direction now than in the last few editions. For the record, I play WARMACHINE also.
You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.
Nah, I´m not. Just because it doesn´t happen in that thread doesn´t mean it doesn´t happen anywhere. I´m sorry but it just does, I´ve encountered such behaviour numerous times. Not to say everyone acts like that.
In any case, GW will probably continue to exist and end up fine, no matter how the 10 year old "GW is doomed and bad and this and that" makes it appear. Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.
Demonstrably means demonstrate. I demonstrated evidence of people saying why they left and it doesn't match with what you said, so yes, your post was demonstrably wrong.
I think you're just misinterpreting peoples' behavior.
I showed many people stating exactly why they left and all you have is a biased opinion with nothing to back it up.
RunicFIN wrote: Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.
Aaaaaand again, GWs sales volume is falling steadily and at an increasing rate while the hobby as a whole has doubled in size since '08.
It's entirely possible the happy quiet fans do still outnumber the unhappy people, but that can't last if things don't change.
It is also very likely that many of those quiet, happy folks are playing older editions of WH40K - and just aren't buying anything new.
It was a problem for D&D, with each new edition - the biggest competitor for AD&D 2nd ed. was AD&D 1st ed. - and TSR even had at least one printing of 1st ed. after 2nd ed. came out.
3e brought some of those folks back - appealing to the amateur qualities that were so much a part of 1st ed.. 3.5 was a mixed message... on one hand WotC was telling folks outright that if you had 3e then you didn't need to update your books - yet it caused a massive crash because players and GMs both wanted stuff that was fully compatible with the updated rules. (I had no problem updating on the fly - and still do exactly that with Pathfinder.)
4e... tried to turn the Etch-A-Sketch over and give it a shake. Only to discover that folks still preferred the older versions.
With WH40K - I know folks that still play 2nd ed.; I know folks that play a monthly game of Rogue Trader using Laser Burn miniatures; I still play 3rd ed. WH40K every now and again.
I bought 4th ed WH40K, but never played it. (I can even pinpoint the exact rules that made me stay with 3rd.)
And I skipped 5, 6, and 7 completely.
The only real result has been my selling or giving away my stuff for WH40K - each new edition means that I play less.
Fantasy... I have played right up to the current edition, where I choked on the changes and switched completely to Kings of War. (I really do not like the current edition of Fantasy. But 3rd edition was my favorite - clunky rules, badly bound hardcover, and all. It looked and felt like a game that people had written because they wanted to play.)
So, yeah, it is entirely possible that 7th editions greatest competitor isn't Infinity or Warmahordes - it is 2nd edition WH40K. (2nd edition isn't my favorite - but I can find games of it pretty danged easily.)
While I have severed the GW cord I don't hate the company. I see it more as that relative you were fond of growing up. they gave you things, helped entertain you, and slowly, over time, you watch them decline. I stuck with them for a little while, even picked up WHFB for a while. But in the end the cost of figures, the cost of rulebooks, the constant change of said rules invalidating previous builds drove me away. That and new editions kept coming out while some armies were using the codex or army book two or more generations ago.
I hope fresh blood in GW management rights the boat. I doubt that they'll go away fully. Their IP will get snatched up before they close their doors.
Every time someone on here says they like 7th, they get ten guys jumping on them to lecture them about how it's their fault GW sucks now because if they quit like all the cool kids, GW would change their business practices.
Which is BS of course, and is a product of the current generation's way over-inflated sense of self that they think they're so important that them quitting something is going to 'change the system' because they're 'voting with their dollars' or whatever nonsense. All that will happen is GW stuff will get MORE expensive to make up for the lost sales from all the people who switch to Infinity so they can come to the FLGS on 40K night and lecture people and bitch that there's no table for Infinity on 40K night.
Just sick of the same guys we have to put up with at the FLGS going online and talking the same gak. We've heard it all before. You used to like GW, now you don't. Congratulations.
As someone who's been playing GW games off and on for over 20 years, we were fine before you guys and we'll be fine after.
Every time someone on here says they like 7th, they get ten guys jumping on them to lecture them about how it's their fault GW sucks now because if they quit like all the cool kids, GW would change their business practices.
Which is BS of course, and is a product of the current generation's way over-inflated sense of self that they think they're so important that them quitting something is going to 'change the system' because they're 'voting with their dollars' or whatever nonsense. All that will happen is GW stuff will get MORE expensive to make up for the lost sales from all the people who switch to Infinity so they can come to the FLGS on 40K night and lecture people and bitch that there's no table for Infinity on 40K night.
Just sick of the same guys we have to put up with at the FLGS going online and talking the same gak. We've heard it all before. You used to like GW, now you don't. Congratulations.
As someone who's been playing GW games off and on for over 20 years, we were fine before you guys and we'll be fine after.
Enjoy those rising prices then.
But this is a capitalist economy and voting with your wallet is a perfectly okay thing to do. You have this strange notion that we should just accept what we're given whether we like it or not and keep our mouths shut.
Sorry, but no. This is a free society and if I don't like a product, I'll voice my opinion about that product. If GW wants my money, they have to cater to my wants. If they don't fulfill those wants, I take my money elsewhere. Judging by the latest two financial reports, I'm not the only one doing so.
It's GW's job to make money and to do that they need to sell what people want. They're not doing that. They're just selling what they want to make and assume that's what people want.
Enjoy those rising prices then.
But this is a capitalist economy and voting with your wallet is a perfectly okay thing to do. You have this strange notion that we should just accept what we're given whether we like it or not and keep our mouths shut.
Sorry, but no. This is a free society and if I don't like a product, I'll voice my opinion about that product. If GW wants my money, they have to cater to my wants. If they don't fulfill those wants, I take my money elsewhere. Judging by the latest two financial reports, I'm not the only one doing so.
It's GW's job to make money and to do that they need to sell what people want. They're not doing that. They're just selling what they want to make and assume that's what people want.
Yes it's a perfectly OK thing to do. You've done it now. Move on. You don't have to accept anything. Just stop playing 40k and go do something else. Stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.
I showed many people stating exactly why they left and all you have is a biased opinion with nothing to back it up.
Firstly it´s not an opinion to state an observation of something that actually happens, on other forums aswell. Secondly, I don´t take notes everytime I encounter something on the internet so yeah, can´t back it up. But I don´t feel a need to back it up anyway, since I´ve seen it myself and I know it happens and that´s enough for me in this case. But no need to bicker about people behaving like I described; I´ve seen it happen many times and nothing will change that. Even if you refuse to accept such behaviour takes place, it does.
Another thing that came to mind, I wonder why some feel the need to make such a big deal about quitting a game. If you´re playing another game anyways and are happy with it, just quit and be done with it. Why announce it allround haha, especially in a continous manner.
Anyway, I guess we´ll just have to wait and see if GW continues to exist normally and things go on like they have for 10 years, or if the "doom of GW if they dont do what we want" -takes place. Pretty sure it´s the former, but hey, let´s wait and see.
I showed many people stating exactly why they left and all you have is a biased opinion with nothing to back it up.
Firstly it´s not an opinion to state an observation of something that actually happens, on other forums aswell. Secondly, I don´t take notes everytime I encounter something on the internet so yeah, can´t back it up. But I got no need to bicker about people behaving like I described; I´ve seen it happen many times and nothing will change that. Even if you refuse to accept such behaviour takes place, it does.
Another thing that came to mind, I wonder why some feel the need to make such a big deal about quitting a game. If you´re playing another game anyways and are happy with it, just quit and be done with it. Why announce it allround haha.
Same reason the kids who listened to Green Day made a big deal about it when they discovered Black Flag and FEAR. Because what's the point in being awesome if no one else knows about it? If you weren't so mainsteam you'd totally get it.
40k night here is a ghost town, while warmachine night has around 25 players. I find it hard to believe that all the tables are occupied on 40k night. Enjoy those rising prices .
Yes it's a perfectly OK thing to do. You've done it now. Move on. You don't have to accept anything. Just stop playing 40k and go do something else. Stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.
Find something else to talk about.
Why? What impact does he talking about it has on your enjoyment of the game?
If he is saying something that isn't true, then correct him, otherwise all you guys sound like you're trying to get him to shut up just because you don't like what he is saying.
Same reason the kids who listened to Green Day made a big deal about it when they discovered Black Flag and FEAR. Because what's the point in being awesome if no one else knows about it? If you weren't so mainsteam you'd totally get it.
And here come the ad-hominem attacks... You guys really don't have any other arguments do you?
Yes it's a perfectly OK thing to do. You've done it now. Move on. You don't have to accept anything. Just stop playing 40k and go do something else. Stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.
Find something else to talk about.
Why? What impact does he talking about it has on your enjoyment of the game?
If he is saying something that isn't true, then correct him, otherwise all you guys sound like you're trying to get him to shut up just because you don't like what he is saying.
Same reason the kids who listened to Green Day made a big deal about it when they discovered Black Flag and FEAR. Because what's the point in being awesome if no one else knows about it? If you weren't so mainsteam you'd totally get it.
And here come the ad-hominem attacks... You guys really don't have any other arguments do you?
I think that's a big reason. If I didn't have people telling GW critics to shut up and go away, I would have have actually shut up and gone away long ago. And I've come to expect little more than personal attacks from GW apologists. It's all they got.
PhantomViper wrote: If he is saying something that isn't true, then correct him, otherwise all you guys sound like you're trying to get him to shut up just because you don't like what he is saying.
Maybe you don´t like what he is saying and you´re trying to make him shut up?
And I've come to expect little more than personal attacks from GW apologists. It's all they got.
I like how you just mocked people who like GW while previously saying no one ever does that, and you even talk about "GW apologists" like they are inferior people. You´re 100% elitistic and paradoxical now, has to be one of the greatest cases of "talked myself into a bag" - I´ve seen in a long time. It´s made even better by the fact that all you have done is personal attacks in this thread. Double paradox award. You will probably try to squirm away from this with some pseudointellectual counterargument but you just did the exact thing I was talking about and nothing will change that until the end of time and space.
And well, this comment really sums your view on things up perfectly. But have fun hating on GW and people who like GW and their games ( which is, again, what you just undeniably factually did... )
PhantomViper wrote: If he is saying something that isn't true, then correct him, otherwise all you guys sound like you're trying to get him to shut up just because you don't like what he is saying.
Maybe you don´t like what he is saying and you´re trying to make him shut up?
Personal attacks, why no, that's not usually liked.
You basically don´t like GW and you think people who do are inferior ( as they got nothing else than personal insults according to you, while many people in this thread alone have given many other valid reasons and not a single personal attack. )
RunicFIN wrote: You basically don´t like GW and you think people who do are inferior ( as they got nothing else than personal insults according to you, while many people in this thread alone have given many other valid reasons and not a single personal attack. )
We get it already.
Apparently you don't because you think people are criticizing GW out of some hipster elitism. No, I'm angry that a game I love and spent over 20 years with has turned to crap and the company can't be bothered to do anything about it. On top of that I get GW apologists criticizing me personally because I find faults in their game.
(And pointing out personal attacks isn't a personal attack on the person doing the insulting.)
Believe me, we get it. Just the last 2 pages of your posts:
"I wish you the best of luck and I hope you find a good time in a game that more suits your style of play. (I hope you go Warmachine because I happen to love that game.)"
"And compared to the rest of the wargaming hobby, GW kinda sucks."
"Warmachine sounds a lot more like what you're looking for.
I have no doubt that if GW had kept that store open, I'd still be playing 40k now."
"If only there was a thread specifically for people listing the exact reasons for leaving 40k."
"Well, 7th hasn't been good for GW."
"If you want tactics, you're playing the wrong game. 40k is complex but shallow."
"That's a very elitist attitude. When GW goes under, don't wonder why."
"That's why so many have left the game. And there is more skill envolved in other war games than gw games."
Talk about biased opinions. But hey, all opinions are biased... And no, this is not a personal attack. Just pointing out that I´ve seen you post and the vibe above is present almost always. I´m not a GW apologist, I´m quite aware of the bad bits since I´ve played both Warhammer and WARMACHINE for 10 years ( 40k way longer. ) But I´m quite fine with 40K as a game and I find it´s going in a better direction at the moment. I just find the doomsayers funny, because like I said before, this same old song has been sang for 10 years and it never seems to stop, yet there are more players now than there ever have been. GW isn´t gonna go under in ages, probably not during my lifetime and I find it hilarious that people think so. Sure they are having a difficult time right now, so will every other game manufacturer when they become as big. All big companies occassionally have trouble - it´s way easier to grow when your company is smaller. It´s just the way it really is.
And yeah, fair enough regarding the last bit you said.
RunicFIN wrote: Believe me, we get it. Just the last 2 pages of your posts:
"I wish you the best of luck and I hope you find a good time in a game that more suits your style of play. (I hope you go Warmachine because I happen to love that game.)"
"And compared to the rest of the wargaming hobby, GW kinda sucks."
"Warmachine sounds a lot more like what you're looking for.
I have no doubt that if GW had kept that store open, I'd still be playing 40k now."
"If only there was a thread specifically for people listing the exact reasons for leaving 40k."
"Well, 7th hasn't been good for GW."
"If you want tactics, you're playing the wrong game. 40k is complex but shallow."
"That's a very elitist attitude. When GW goes under, don't wonder why."
"That's why so many have left the game. And there is more skill envolved in other war games than gw games."
Talk about biased opinions. But hey, all opinions are biased...
And yeah, fair enough regarding the last bit you said.
I have strong opinions, yes. Since when is that a crime? But what I don't do is insult anyone for liking 40k. I receive insults though.
Also, I never realized that voicing an opinion on a public forum was so offensive to you.
When I usually speak up its when someone says something ignorant like "people hate on GW just because it's cool to hate on GW." Ignorance if offensive to me. What they're saying is an opinion, but its one based on false assumptions. I try to correct them on the reasons people are leaving in hopes that they'll see what's wrong and maybe try to understand and keep people from leaving. AKA, fix the game/community. A healthy gamer community is good for everyone. But ignoring problems isn't healthy.
RunicFIN wrote: Didn´t say it´s a crime. You said "we" don´t get it, I just pointed out that we do.
So, I won't hear "GW haters just hating cause it's cool" anymore?
Sweet!
EDIT:
Oh, wait, I just read this. My work continues...
I agree custom. learning new strategies and tactics however is not balencing the game, it is becoming a better player and learning to adapt.
the players who are complaining about the rules now are the ones who were adept at working with the broken rules of previous editions and are mad that their pet exploits no longer work and are unwilling to learn new ones or unwilling to learn to win without having to rely on those crutches.
I agree with you 100% though.
Like I said before, I´ve seen it happen and it does. How does me saying your strong opinions aren´t crime relate to people behaving the way I describe?
It feels to me you´re just bickering out of spite now.
But mate, after reading your posts I´d say you fit the quota of a ( GW )"hater" pretty well. Just a neutral observation.
In 5th and 6th I had 10 armies (all 5000+ points).
In 7th I have zero.
#i'mpartofthereason
- since I was the motivator (battles and campaigns) in my group, the four other people haven't played a game of 40K since 7th dropped.
They have played quite a bit of X-Wing, though -due to my interest in that game.
This is just another stupid XBOX vs Playstation turf war. I like GW games, I like some other games too. There's room for both.
No, it's not.
But there will always be a small, vocal minority, that can't shut up about GW even though they claim not to even play GW games anymore.
And there will always be a silent majority that have walked away from GW, never to be seen again. GW is either haemorrhaging customers or the same amount of people are buying less. One of these things is true. The financials don't lie.
This is just another stupid XBOX vs Playstation turf war. I like GW games, I like some other games too. There's room for both.
But there will always be a small, vocal minority, that can't shut up about GW even though they claim not to even play GW games anymore.
Are you completely blind to the concept of some people really liking 40K and its setting, but hating what GW has become?
Do you understand that some people like the setting of 40K so much that they are willing to hang on despite the greedy and idiotic moves made by GW?
Do you get that some people hang around here and in other 40K/GW related threads and forums because they desperately look for a reason to keep playing?
Do you realize that most of us would like to play 40K for many years to come.....and that's why we rail against what GW is doing?
This is just another stupid XBOX vs Playstation turf war. I like GW games, I like some other games too. There's room for both.
But there will always be a small, vocal minority, that can't shut up about GW even though they claim not to even play GW games anymore.
Are you completely blind to the concept of some people really liking 40K and its setting, but hating what GW has become?
Do you understand that some people like the setting of 40K so much that they are willing to hang on despite the greedy and idiotic moves made by GW?
Do you get that some people hang around here and in other 40K/GW related threads and forums because they desperately look for a reason to keep playing?
Do you realize that most of us would like to play 40K for many years to come.....and that's why we rail against what GW is doing?
Sure. Do you realize that I remember when 3rd edition 40k came out and the exact same thing happened? Or when 8th fantasy came out?
Some people don't like new things. They get comfortable with things being one way and when those things are changed they can't handle it. 7th edition with the Maelstrom cards is probably actually MORE tactical than 5th (which you guys used to cry about when IT was the current system as well). 'Oh but I don't like Maelstrom blah blah blah' yeah well, Maelstrom makes the game balanced and tactical, so what do the crybabies do? Come up with a reason to hate Maelstrom so they can still cry.
What you guys who think you have it all figured out need to understand is some of us have been playing longer than you, have MORE information than you, MORE experience and end up at a different conclusion than you did. Which is fine. You can still play 5th edition 40k if you and your group like it better. No one is preventing you from doing that.
This is just another stupid XBOX vs Playstation turf war. I like GW games, I like some other games too. There's room for both.
But there will always be a small, vocal minority, that can't shut up about GW even though they claim not to even play GW games anymore.
Are you completely blind to the concept of some people really liking 40K and its setting, but hating what GW has become?
Do you understand that some people like the setting of 40K so much that they are willing to hang on despite the greedy and idiotic moves made by GW?
Do you get that some people hang around here and in other 40K/GW related threads and forums because they desperately look for a reason to keep playing?
Do you realize that most of us would like to play 40K for many years to come.....and that's why we rail against what GW is doing?
Sure. Do you realize that I remember when 3rd edition 40k came out and the exact same thing happened? Or when 8th fantasy came out?
Some people don't like new things. They get comfortable with things being one way and when those things are changed they can't handle it. 7th edition with the Maelstrom cards is probably actually MORE tactical than 5th (which you guys used to cry about when IT was the current system as well). 'Oh but I don't like Maelstrom blah blah blah' yeah well, Maelstrom makes the game balanced and tactical, so what do the crybabies do? Come up with a reason to hate Maelstrom so they can still cry.
What you guys who think you have it all figured out need to understand is some of us have been playing longer than you, have MORE information than you, MORE experience and end up at a different conclusion than you did. Which is fine. You can still play 5th edition 40k if you and your group like it better. No one is preventing you from doing that.
So what are your opinions on
Three straight years of price increases on the same products?
Edition changes every other year?
The company dicking out the independent retailer that made them into the giant they are today?
The company's international policy?
I included the quote because Steelmage99 made some serious points on how many people feel and you went straight to the "You just hate new stuff" card.
Until someone to addresses these two posts I think dismissing people who are unhappy with GW as internet hipsters doesn't only hole absolutley zero weight but kinda makes the people pushing it look like trolls.
Grimtuff wrote:
And there will always be a silent majority that have walked away from GW, never to be seen again. GW is either haemorrhaging customers or the same amount of people are buying less. One of these things is true. The financials don't lie.
MightyGodzilla wrote:
So what are your opinions on
Three straight years of price increases on the same products?
Edition changes every other year?
The company dicking out the independent retailer that made them into the giant they are today?
The company's international policy?
I included the quote because Steelmage99 made some serious points on how many people feel and you went straight to the "You just hate new stuff" card.
I'd also like to add to that list;
GWs legal department and IP bullying
Or, if you want to go really far back, the blatant theft of other IPs they made games for when creating their own games (D&D, 2000 AD at least that I know of).
jonolikespie wrote: Or, if you want to go really far back, the blatant theft of other IPs they made games for when creating their own games (D&D, 2000 AD at least that I know of).
Yeah, but at least back then they didn't pretend they were original about it
(In case anyone doesn't get this, please see the Chapterhouse case where the GW representative states under oath that their designer's ideas come from scratch)
Enjoy those rising prices then. But this is a capitalist economy and voting with your wallet is a perfectly okay thing to do. You have this strange notion that we should just accept what we're given whether we like it or not and keep our mouths shut. Sorry, but no. This is a free society and if I don't like a product, I'll voice my opinion about that product. If GW wants my money, they have to cater to my wants. If they don't fulfill those wants, I take my money elsewhere. Judging by the latest two financial reports, I'm not the only one doing so. It's GW's job to make money and to do that they need to sell what people want. They're not doing that. They're just selling what they want to make and assume that's what people want.
Yes it's a perfectly OK thing to do. You've done it now. Move on. You don't have to accept anything. Just stop playing 40k and go do something else. Stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.
Find something else to talk about.
This was a thread specifically asking people why they have moved on from GW. His posts are on topic. You are the one not liking the topic and attacking people for it.
We get that you like GW. But when a thread specifically asks people who don't for their reasons, you can't blame people for giving them, and defending those reasons against people ciriticising them in a thread about those reasons.
You are as bad as those who criticise GW in positive threads about those games. You've become the people you're complaining about.
Given the thread title and OP I am surprised anyone has come on here expecting to see anything other than 'why I dislike/left GW', which would suggest they came in looking for a fight.
The more constructive approach would be to start a thread about why you're sticking with GW; y'know what inspires you about the changes they make? What new releases have you as giddy as a twelve year old getting his first model?
If someone then comes into that thread and starts telling you GW sucks I can see some slight justification for the amount of hostility displayed on the last page. However, in this thread, it is unacceptable and charges of trolling aren't wide of the mark.
Honestly if people want to discuss the reasons people are leaving in a civil manner then I'd be perfectly happy with people replying to someone who dislikes 7th ed rules with why they in fact like them.
Just like if I see someone in a 'why I'm sticking with GW' thread saying they think GW still make the best models on the market I'd like to debate that point.
But instead we have people who seem to think any criticism of GW is a personal insult and replying in kind.
RunicFIN wrote: Like I said before, I´ve seen it happen and it does. How does me saying your strong opinions aren´t crime relate to people behaving the way I describe?
It feels to me you´re just bickering out of spite now.
But mate, after reading your posts I´d say you fit the quota of a ( GW )"hater" pretty well. Just a neutral observation.
If you're neutral, then I'm the queen of France. your armor is so white that I'm going blind. For what it's worth, I never ran cheese lists that broke the game, never ran net lists, I just played and won or lost. But 6th was garbage. 7th sucks too. I hate what the game turned into-bloated and over complicated. Are the models still usually awesome? Yes. But they're over priced. And the rules attached to them suck. One day you'll either figure that out or be homeless with a sign saying "will work for warhams". Choice is yours.
Also: I love the Warhammer universe. Horus heresy is what the fall of Darth Vader SHOULD have been. I wish the game was still good. But it's not anymore. Numbers and facts have proven the number of people is declining while other game companies are stealing GW customers. Take the blinders off and look to what's really going on. Or don't. It's your money, your time, and ultimately your decision. But don't attack others, then declare yourself neutral.
@RunicFIN and OldSkoolGoff
So if you are not part of the reason then why are you posting in this thread, It is great that you love GW and think they can do no wrong.
But do not come here attacking people who do not agree with your view.
And waow, many posters here are long time GW aficionado's, i have only been playing GW for 25 years, so i think that gives me a voice on their recent business practices.
This is just another stupid XBOX vs Playstation turf war. I like GW games, I like some other games too. There's room for both.
But there will always be a small, vocal minority, that can't shut up about GW even though they claim not to even play GW games anymore.
Are you completely blind to the concept of some people really liking 40K and its setting, but hating what GW has become?
Do you understand that some people like the setting of 40K so much that they are willing to hang on despite the greedy and idiotic moves made by GW?
Do you get that some people hang around here and in other 40K/GW related threads and forums because they desperately look for a reason to keep playing?
Do you realize that most of us would like to play 40K for many years to come.....and that's why we rail against what GW is doing?
Sure. Do you realize that I remember when 3rd edition 40k came out and the exact same thing happened? Or when 8th fantasy came out?
Some people don't like new things. They get comfortable with things being one way and when those things are changed they can't handle it. 7th edition with the Maelstrom cards is probably actually MORE tactical than 5th (which you guys used to cry about when IT was the current system as well). 'Oh but I don't like Maelstrom blah blah blah' yeah well, Maelstrom makes the game balanced and tactical, so what do the crybabies do? Come up with a reason to hate Maelstrom so they can still cry.
What you guys who think you have it all figured out need to understand is some of us have been playing longer than you, have MORE information than you, MORE experience and end up at a different conclusion than you did. Which is fine. You can still play 5th edition 40k if you and your group like it better. No one is preventing you from doing that.
You literally have no idea what you're talking about. It's been stated many many times why people don't like Maelstrom missions and yet you make up fake reasons that are easier to argue against.
As a combat veteran I find Maelstrom missions to be completely ridiculous and it kicks me out of the immersion that like when I game. I laugh at the idea that one moment my LT is telling me to take the farm house and then the next minute telling me to shoot down a plane that isn't there and then come back to his position and sit there.
Maelstrom balances out bad codexes by making everything completely random. If it doesn't matter what army you play, why bother?
I could go on but you won't listen. You're not hear to listen to real reasons but to make up your own and put yourself on a pedestal.
And for the record, I've been playing since RT and I've NEVER seen the player base this fractured and upset with GW's direction. Never.
Oh, and I do adapt to change. I like change. When its for the better. What I don't like is change for the worse.
If you aren't open to the fact your objectives can and do change dynamically, then that's a massive fib. And that's accounting for the fact you seem to be American and therefore aren't used to as much dynamisim in your mission as other nations.
I've played since RT and never liked it more than now. I've had others say the same. And it's worth mentioning that the online community, and therefore whingepits like Dakka etc, have a loud3er voice than before thanks to technology.
If you aren't open to the fact your objectives can and do change dynamically, then that's a massive fib. And that's accounting for the fact you seem to be American and therefore aren't used to as much dynamisim in your mission as other nations.
I've played since RT and never liked it more than now. I've had others say the same. And it's worth mentioning that the online community, and therefore whingepits like Dakka etc, have a loud3er voice than before thanks to technology.
Well yeah, but we're not playing a combat simulation. Not even a sci fi combat simulation. It's a heavily abstracted wargame, and you need to start considering balance and gameplay. It needs to be acheivable and fun for both parties with armies that aren't deciding the game at the faction selection stage, or it fails in its goal of being entertainment. Sure, objectives can change that fast and in real war, sometimes you're just hopelessly outmatched. It doesn't make for a particularly balanced game, nor fun game if you keep getting things you can't complete or chose an army the designers don't give a gak about anymore.
If we're going to start measuring dick length over time played, I haven't played that long. I got in at the start of 2nd edition. And I haven't enjoyed the game as much as I did during 3rd edition.
Opinions and all that. That's why people are in this thread. They don't share yours.
You've become the people you're complaining about.
Well yeah, except that I'm the opposite. I came online to look for other 40k players to disuss the game with. Because I like the game. I want to discuss something I like. Instead, all I get in every thread is a mountain of people bitching about how much better the game used to be. Which is nothing new. That happens literally every edition. I just wish the people who rage quit at the beginning of 6th had ACTUALLY quit instead of just crying for 2 years and waiting for the next edition. At which point they started all over again.
There's a pretty big difference between going online seeking discussion on something you LIKE and going online to find an echo chamber to bitch and bitch incessantly about something you don't like. One is a costructive use of your time, the other is a masturbatory act designed to feed your own need to be right. About everything.
You guys are Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons now. 'Worst edition ever' blah blah blah. How about you put as much effort into liking something as you do into hating everything.
You've become the people you're complaining about.
Well yeah, except that I'm the opposite. I came online to look for other 40k players to disuss the game with. Because I like the game. I want to discuss something I like. Instead, all I get in every thread is a mountain of people bitching about how much better the game used to be. Which is nothing new. That happens literally every edition. I just wish the people who rage quit at the beginning of 6th had ACTUALLY quit instead of just crying for 2 years and waiting for the next edition. At which point they started all over again.
There's a pretty big difference between going online seeking discussion on something you LIKE and going online to find an echo chamber to bitch and bitch incessantly about something you don't like. One is a costructive use of your time, the other is a masturbatory act designed to feed your own need to be right. About everything.
You guys are Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons now. 'Worst edition ever' blah blah blah. How about you put as much effort into liking something as you do into hating everything.
You keep missing the fact that A) While true it's happened constantly, this is the worst it's ever been and that's 100% due to GW basically not giving a crap what people want (because they do no market research etc.) and putting out garbage and then having the gall to charge an arm and a leg for it, and B) 40k is the only game that seems to have this problem. There are complaints with Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux and other games, but nowhere near the level of "Choose a side" like you see here. It's almost like 40k has two factions like in WoW, and both sides hate the other because reasons, except unlike WoW both sides actually need to cooperate in order to play the game.
I used to come to Dakka during 3rd edition (the original EZ Board forums) and there were still complaints then (mostly about assault and min/maxing IIRC but even then YMDC was the largest forum due to the dubious rules quality), but it's nowhere close to what you saw in 6th and now 7th edition. The game has gotten objectively worse, and now it's showing, and a big part of that is that GW is turning the game into something it's not but either doesn't know how or doesn't have the guts to actually change the core rules to facilitate that new direction. 40k is declining (slowly, but surely) while tabletop miniatures games are growing.
You've become the people you're complaining about.
Well yeah, except that I'm the opposite. I came online to look for other 40k players to disuss the game with. Because I like the game. I want to discuss something I like. Instead, all I get in every thread is a mountain of people bitching about how much better the game used to be. Which is nothing new. That happens literally every edition. I just wish the people who rage quit at the beginning of 6th had ACTUALLY quit instead of just crying for 2 years and waiting for the next edition. At which point they started all over again.
There's a pretty big difference between going online seeking discussion on something you LIKE and going online to find an echo chamber to bitch and bitch incessantly about something you don't like. One is a costructive use of your time, the other is a masturbatory act designed to feed your own need to be right. About everything.
You guys are Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons now. 'Worst edition ever' blah blah blah. How about you put as much effort into liking something as you do into hating everything.
The hypocrisy here is hilarious.
You accuse people who don't like GW games anymore of circlejerking about why they dislike it, and state that you want to find discussion.
Then in the same post state that it's only a constructive use of your time to find positive circlejerking. Negative opinions are not allowed.
Discussion has both points of view. That's why it's a discussion. You obviously know this. But it's not what you want by your own admission in that post.
My advice? Don't be like the people you hate. Yes, this thread is just here for people who dislike the games to discuss why. The very first post told you this, and the thread title would have hinted it to you. If you're not looking for this discussion, yet came in anyway to start an argument about it, then yes, you are exactly like the people who drop into a 40k thread to troll it. Only you're dropping into a GW negative thread to troll it.
My advice? Go circlejerk positively in threads that appeal to you. That's what you're looking for.
#i'mpartofthereason. I have several gripes with GW. One of the things that drove me away was their treatment of their employees. The one man store thing was a disaster. Managers could not even go to the bathroom without closing the store. There were also totally unrealistic sales expectations. This would lead to them getting reamed out by their supervisors. It is one thing to raise prices, but treating people badly is something else entirely. I did not approve, so I stopped buying GW products.
Other gripes include their poor rule sets, nerfing armies, squatting armies, and high prices/need lots of models to play. Fortunately, I do not need to worry about these things, as I am happily playing other games.
I still spend at GW - but only at Forgeworld. I'll reward what I perceive to be good value and I find Forgeworld's line of books and models to be good value. Yes, they are expensive but, for me, with Forgeworld's books, I find I can still enjoy games and campaigns based on the rich background the Imperial Armour or Horus Heresy series brings. The stories, explanations, equipment details and other richness is a blessing to 40k. They're well written, engaging and the models stay true to 40k of old.
As for buying from GW core, my only recent purchase was Space Hulk. Before that, I bought the last few bits and pieces from their Specialist Games range before they disappeared. I've not purchased the new 40k 7th rulebook, but probably will get a 2nd hand one when I need it. The majority of models released recently hold little appeal to me. Overblown proportions, a very in your face over the top style. Though the recent Imperial Knight release deserves praise and I will purchase one or two soon. It is an excellent model that bucks the current trend and style of 40k releases. I've moved on from their overpriced paints; Vallejo, Scale75 and others I prefer. Fantasy is a joke and my tastes lie elsewhere for my fantastical fix and, I can honestly say, I'll probably never buy into fantasy ever again - far too generic and bland at too high a cost.
As for games, I play plenty of other games now - X-Wing, War at Sea, Sedition Wars, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic and Darklands. And they're all getting plenty of money from me now.
Grimtuff wrote: GW is either haemorrhaging customers or the same amount of people are buying less. One of these things is true. The financials don't lie.
Or they might´ve made investments or competitors are causing less sales ( which always happens, regardless if a customer is happy with the other companys product. ) Their production might have not been in scale to the lessened demand and causing too much expenses. There are numerous other things that affect a financial report than just a wargames nerd who refuses to buy. People who don´t realizet this shouldn´t even discuss matters related to business.
Grimtuff wrote: GW is either haemorrhaging customers or the same amount of people are buying less. One of these things is true. The financials don't lie.
Or they might´ve made investments or competitors are causing less sales ( which always happens, regardless if a customer is happy with the other companys product. ) Their production might have not been in scale to the lessened demand and causing too much expenses. There are numerous other things that affect a financial report than just a wargames nerd who refuses to buy. People who don´t realizet this shouldn´t even discuss matters related to business.
You do realize that the financial report shows all the numbers for all of that and that it doesn't say anything of what you are talking about, right?
You'd be wise to go and read it before making baseless claims like you're making, you'd also be wise to go and read the analysis that people that are actual financial experts before making the claims that you are making but I'm thinking that that would be asking too much.
If you're neutral, then I'm the queen of France. your armor is so white that I'm going blind.
Nah, just because I´m a realist doesn´t make me a white knight, sorry. GW´s isn´t the nicest of companies, I find Privateer Press has a much more customer friendly image ( and a balanced set of games ) and what I described before is still true. I can like Privateer Press more than GW and at the same time I can see GW won´t be going under in our lifetime, and that their financial reports aren´t caused by just players who refuse to buy, but by many other factors aswell. That´s what mature people are capable of, seeing things the way they really are and admitting that is the case, even if they don´t like it.
You do realize that the financial report shows all the numbers for all of that and that it doesn't say anything of what you are talking about, right?
You'd be wise to go and read it before making baseless claims like you're making, you'd also be wise to go and read the analysis that people that are actual financial experts before making the claims that you are making but I'm thinking that that would be asking too much.
It doesn´t show how competitors affect a companys finances, nor does it show the scale of production costs in scale to a declining demand. Maybe you should go read instead... but that´s probably too much to ask especially since you just said something paradoxical.
If you're neutral, then I'm the queen of France. your armor is so white that I'm going blind.
Nah, just because I´m a realist doesn´t make me a white knight, sorry. GW´s isn´t the nicest of companies, I find Privateer Press has a much more customer friendly image ( and a balanced set of games ) and what I described before is still true. I can like Privateer Press more than GW and at the same time I can see GW won´t be going under in our lifetime, and that their financial reports aren´t caused by just players who refuse to buy, but by many other factors aswell. That´s what mature people are capable of, seeing things the way they really are and admitting that is the case, even if they don´t like it.
You do realize that the financial report shows all the numbers for all of that and that it doesn't say anything of what you are talking about, right?
You'd be wise to go and read it before making baseless claims like you're making, you'd also be wise to go and read the analysis that people that are actual financial experts before making the claims that you are making but I'm thinking that that would be asking too much.
It doesn´t show how competitors affect a companys finances, nor does it show the scale of production costs in scale to a declining demand. Maybe you should instead go read instead... but that´s probably too much to ask especially since you just said something paradoxical.
Nope. The financial reports clearly show a dramatic loss in sales. That means people are buying less. Everything else going bad is a separate issue.
Yeah, never said it doesn´t show loss in sales. I said:
"It doesn´t show how competitors affect a companys finances, nor does it show the scale of production costs in scale to a declining demand"
There is no "Privateer Press caused us to lose X amount of money" and so on in the report. Just general sales. And before that I said:
"Or they might´ve made investments or competitors are causing less sales"
-which isn´t all necessarily ( and most likely ) just because someone got fed up. People get interested about new products and things all the time without being displeased in their "original product of the same field." You can be completely satisfied about your car, and still exchange/buy another just because you feel like it.
It doesn´t show how competitors affect a companys finances, nor does it show the scale of production costs in scale to a declining demand. Maybe you should go read instead... but that´s probably too much to ask especially since you just said something paradoxical.
The report shows a 12% drop in sales. A drop in a financial year that not only included the release of SM, but of a new 40k edition as well. A drop in sales in an industry that is growing by double digits. Please explain to me oh wise one, how this can be interpreted in any other way than as the result of a drop in the number of overall customers or at least as the result of a drastic reduction in spending of existing customers.
And while you are at it, please explain how this is actually the sign of a healthy company instead, since that seems to be your opinion of it.
RunicFIN wrote: Or they might´ve made investments or competitors are causing less sales ( which always happens, regardless if a customer is happy with the other companys product. ) Their production might have not been in scale to the lessened demand and causing too much expenses. There are numerous other things that affect a financial report than just a wargames nerd who refuses to buy. People who don´t realizet this shouldn´t even discuss matters related to business.
The breakdown of the report clearly shows that less money is coming in when you look only at sales. It has nothing to do with investing money in other places, they are either selling less stock or selling stuff cheaper (which we know is not happening).
As for the underlined part, the people commenting on this (well, not me but a few users on Dakka as well as the guy writing the Future of Games Workshop articles) have some very serious credentials, like having worked as CEOs and CIOs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How is the effect of competitors not linked directly with the loss of sales?
With the SM dex, IG, Knights and 7th and they still sold 12% less stuff, that's a really bad sign.
Of course not all of them were dissatisfied with GW, but the fact that the competition gets their money instead shows that GW needs to change and figure out why they're losing sales.
(Cue dramatic music)
But they don't do market research to find out why they lose sales so they won't know how to fix it. They'll keep losing sales until they change for the better or go out of business. Those are the two options. It may take a long while to go out of business, but it will happen if they don't change.
RunicFIN wrote: Or they might´ve made investments or competitors are causing less sales ( which always happens, regardless if a customer is happy with the other companys product. ) Their production might have not been in scale to the lessened demand and causing too much expenses. There are numerous other things that affect a financial report than just a wargames nerd who refuses to buy. People who don´t realizet this shouldn´t even discuss matters related to business.
The breakdown of the report clearly shows that less money is coming in when you look only at sales. It has nothing to do with investing money in other places, they are either selling less stock or selling stuff cheaper (which we know is not happening).
As for the underlined part, the people commenting on this (well, not me but a few users on Dakka as well as the guy writing the Future of Games Workshop articles) have some very serious credentials, like having worked as CEOs and CIOs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How is the effect of competitors not linked directly with the loss of sales?
Oh but we're all haters and those guys don't know anything and these complaints have been going on for 10+ years and GW is still around so they MUST be doing something right, and PP/Mantic/etc's quality is garbage and those games aren't sci-fi grimdark large-scale with small-scale rules that feature Space Marines so they aren't a valid comparison to 40k.
PhantomViper wrote: The report shows a 12% drop in sales. A drop in a financial year that not only included the release of SM, but of a new 40k edition as well. A drop in sales in an industry that is growing by double digits. Please explain to me oh wise one, how this can be interpreted in any other way than as the result of a drop in the number of overall customers or at least as the result of a drastic reduction in spending of existing customers.
I don´t know how to articulate this any clearer, and thus this will be my last attempt at it: I´m not saying what you describe.
What I´m trying to say is:
The loss of sales and/or customers isn´t just people who are angry at GW and are protesting. It is also people who got interested in other games while being content with GW´s games. It is also people who might be on a break from 40K for example. Being fed up/angry isn´t the only reason a person stops buying products at any given time. There are numerous other reasons and factors.
That is all I am trying to say. Should someone interpret it at something else after this, they can only blame themselves.
Oh but we're all haters and those guys don't know anything and these complaints have been going on for 10+ years and GW is still around so they MUST be doing something right, and PP/Mantic/etc's quality is garbage and those games aren't sci-fi grimdark large-scale with small-scale rules that feature Space Marines so they aren't a valid comparison to 40k.
Yeah and everyone who doesn´t agree with the hilariously fictional "GW is going under unless they do what I want" -trend must be white knights asmuch as you are haters, right. I like how this discussion, like the all the ones before, end up in this same age old setting. You can´t be neutral, you can´t be a realist, you´re either an apologist/white knight or a hater. Such a black and white way of looking at things.
People aren't being realists though. The financials state that GW is losing sales and, therefore, losing profit. They WILL go under unless they fix it (as would any business that consistently loses profit while cutting costs to the bone - eventually you won't have any costs left to cut and if you are still losing profit, you'll eventually go negative and operate at a loss), and all indication has been they don't know what's wrong because they act like it's 1984 not 2014 and really do think that people will buy GW products simply because they're GW products, and the rules are just for that small group that want to play a game and not collect figures.
In fact the closest thing to the realists are the people who get called "haters", because we actually use facts and evidence not say "40k is doing great in my area so everything is perfect" or "I'm having fun, what's the problem" and claim it's evidence.
A realist would say that they might be having fun with 40k, but they see the problems the game has and the reasons people have issues with GW. Instead it's usually a hard divide and the more rude and condescending people seem to be on the pro-GW side of things.
A realist might say there still being copies of Space Hulk in stores 3 and a half weeks after release is as clear a sign as any things are bad.
A realist might also say the biggest FLGS in Australia reporting GW having fallen to 10-15% of their revenue indicates that GW is almost irrelevant in the Australian market.
Ah well, I believe they are quite aware of what is wrong, and I believe they are taking action, but things move slowly in the corporate world.
But I feel there´s not much else to discuss, won´t be reading the thread after this as it´s just useless bickering that helps no one I´m afraid. I know the following though:
-GW isn´t going under in the foreseeable future, just not gonna happen. Might get reduced in size, but they wont go under. Keep believing it if you want, I´ll laugh at you in 10 years when they´re still up and running. At least you ( anyone, not directed at an individual ) can base your belief in an undefined timeline and cry out "I was right!" when they go under in like a 60 years or so.
-People that are fine with GW´s games and still play other games exist.
-People who don´t hate GW and like their games while simultaneously liking other manufacturers as a company + their games exist.
-You don´t necessarily have a positive or a negative standing regarding a company, you can also factually be neutral as with all things.
-GW isn´t evil, and me not seeing them as evil doesn´t make me an apologist. There are probably individuals who only care about money involved, but I am confindent that in the heart of GW there is a team of designers and professionals who love the universe and the games and use every ounce of their know-how to try and develop their product with passion, just like I imagine in Privateer Press´s studio for example.
The problem is that they priced people out and continue to do so, seemingly just because they can, while at the same time making it so you can easily screw yourself over if you like units that are bad because they can't be bothered to write a balanced game.
WayneTheGame wrote: People aren't being realists though. The financials state that GW is losing sales and, therefore, losing profit. They WILL go under unless they fix it (as would any business that consistently loses profit while cutting costs to the bone - eventually you won't have any costs left to cut and if you are still losing profit, you'll eventually go negative and operate at a loss), and all indication has been they don't know what's wrong because they act like it's 1984 not 2014 and really do think that people will buy GW products simply because they're GW products, and the rules are just for that small group that want to play a game and not collect figures.
In fact the closest thing to the realists are the people who get called "haters", because we actually use facts and evidence not say "40k is doing great in my area so everything is perfect" or "I'm having fun, what's the problem" and claim it's evidence.
A realist would say that they might be having fun with 40k, but they see the problems the game has and the reasons people have issues with GW. Instead it's usually a hard divide and the more rude and condescending people seem to be on the pro-GW side of things.
This is what I was trying to say but with an emphasis on the fact that they do no market research so probably don't understand what the problem really is and thus won't know how to fix it.
If they don't fix it, (at this rate) they will go under eventually.
Like a plane in a dive, if they don't pull up, they will crash.
I don´t know how to articulate this any clearer, and thus this will be my last attempt at it: I´m not saying what you describe.
What I´m trying to say is:
The loss of sales and/or customers isn´t just people who are angry at GW and are protesting. It is also people who got interested in other games while being content with GW´s games. It is also people who might be on a break from 40K for example. Being fed up/angry isn´t the only reason a person stops buying products at any given time. There are numerous other reasons and factors.
That is all I am trying to say. Should someone interpret it at something else after this, they can only blame themselves.
Did you read the thread title before you started posting? Right there in the thread title it says: #i'mPARTofthereason The thread started as an offshoot of the GW Life Cycle thread because people who are spending less on GW and playing fewer GW games or who have stopped doing any of that at all are PART of the reason GW is seeing a decline in revenue and profits. Nobody stated that dissatisfied gamers spending less on GW products was the sole reason for their financial decline. You just posted that you AGREE with that sentiment. Why did you spend time and energy provoking arguments with people that you're in agreement with? That's just trolling.
#i'mpart of the reason because when I started in this hobby 40K was just starting 2nd Edition but as I got older I had less time for the hobby and stopped buying the new rulebooks and codices or playing games and now I can't justify the cost of buying all the books I'd need to play 7th Ed and since I won't be playing the game buying new models for it is hard to justify. It also frustrates me when GW stops supporting games with good rulesets like LOTR and Necromunda but refuses to improve the rules for their core games. Now I purchase minis from other companies when I want something new to paint as I slowly work through painting all the GW stuff I've acquired over the past decades.
RunicFIN wrote: Ah well, I believe they are quite aware of what is wrong, and I believe they are taking action, but things move slowly in the corporate world.
But I feel there´s not much else to discuss, won´t be reading the thread after this as it´s just useless bickering that helps no one I´m afraid. I know the following though:
-GW isn´t going under in the foreseeable future, just not gonna happen. Might get reduced in size, but they wont go under. Keep believing it if you want, I´ll laugh at you in 10 years when they´re still up and running. At least you ( anyone, not directed at an individual ) can base your belief in an undefined timeline and cry out "I was right!" when they go under in like a 60 years or so.
-People that are fine with GW´s games and still play other games exist.
-People who don´t hate GW and like their games while simultaneously liking other manufacturers as a company + their games exist.
-You don´t necessarily have a positive or a negative standing regarding a company, you can also factually be neutral as with all things.
-GW isn´t evil, and me not seeing them as evil doesn´t make me an apologist. There are probably individuals who only care about money involved, but I am confindent that in the heart of GW there is a team of designers and professionals who love the universe and the games and use every ounce of their know-how to try and develop their product with passion, just like I imagine in Privateer Press´s studio for example.
They likely (again, likely: not for sure) don't know what the problem is, because they FLAT OUT admitted that they don't do market research. It's right in Kirby's pre-ramble (not a mistype), and he's proud of the fact. Ignoring that is sticking your head in the sand. I'm sure I speak for almost everyone in this thread when I say that if GW got back in gear, to the way it used to be, quit over bloating, quit the crap prices, did market research, and acted like a game company, I'd come back. But as it stands now, they're crap. And you'll either realize it or you won't. If you really hate that many of us have gotten upset at being treated like crap by a company we used to love, there are other forums out there that are GW friendly still. We're all sad that we aren't GW fans anymore. But they caused it-we just woke up to it.
People with adjacent points of views trolling eachother. Brilliant. How about taking the off topic bits to PM’s for a page.
Thank you Spaceelf, Zedmeister, and Prestor Jon for attempting to get us back on track with your responses to the OP. You have not been ignored.
nanook wrote: Found this quote in the GW life cycle thread and thought it was a great idea!
Who else is part of the reason GW took a dive in sales and profit this year?
I'm part of the reason because I used to spend £50-100 a month on GW stuff - books, paint, models etc...
BUT with the move to 7th edition I have really lost interest in GW. Prices are too high, new products seem a bit childish (murdefang) and I just feel they couldn't care less about me as a veteran gamer at all. Oh, they want my money but there seems no love for the game.
Anyone else feel this way?
Someone better at twitter campaigns take up the mantle and send this message to GW.
I normally would not hashtag unless drunk, but in attempt to revive the OP and stop the madness.
#Impartofthereason
Not GW’s fault but I don’t like heroic scale. Big heads, big hands, not for me so much anymore. Funny thing was I never even noticed it till about 2008 (been playing since 1990) when my girlfriend at the time told me she didn’t like my minis because their heads and hands were disproportionately big. A couple years later I inquired about it and learned about heroic scale. I love the net. Once again not GW’s fault.
I also don’t buy %100 Citadel paints anymore. They’re more like 10% of my line up, even though they’re the only choice at either of my FLGS’s. I use my airbrush more and more for projects. The pigment particles in Citadel paints are just way too big and I get clogs all the time. I will however always be a fan of Tin Bitz.
I had it pointed out to make a slight amendment to my last post: I don't want to suggest that Dakka is "anti GW". Merely that there are other forums out there that only support positive GW material, where independent thought against GW is squashed. Dakka allows us to voice our opinions, regardless of whether they're positive, negative, or constructive criticism. Apologies for putting out a semi-inaccurate post.
timetowaste85 wrote: I had it pointed out to make a slight amendment to my last post: I don't want to suggest that Dakka is "anti GW". Merely that there are other forums out there that only support positive GW material, where independent thought against GW is squashed. Dakka allows us to voice our opinions, regardless of whether they're positive, negative, or constructive criticism. Apologies for putting out a semi-inaccurate post.
And that's how it should be. Pushing out North Korea-style propaganda and squashing any complaints just pisses the people who have legitimate complaints off. I've seen a few forums like that, with mods that lock threads and ban anyone who doesn't paint a rosy picture, and I'm glad Dakka isn't like that.
Yup. And that's all I meant by my first post. But, I was at work. I had it pointed out how it came out, so I let the person know what I really intended, and added it to the thread. I notice he hasn't replied back to me though. I'm wwwwwwwwaiting...
One thing that I have noticed - the longer I go without buying GW stuff, the less of an urge I seem to have to get any more.
I... think part of the problem for GW is that they used to have folks that quit the H-H-Hobby for a while, then come back.
Now... I think that a lot of the folks that quit these days are staying away.
There is less reason to come back now - mostly, I think, because of the increasingly insane prices, but I suspect that the rules do not help.
Also... there are now alternatives - my WHFB group has gone to KoW. There is an Infinity group going, and there is a Deadzone game that is on nights that I am unavailable, dammit.
I've certainly found the biggest obstacle between GW and my money are the other companies out there showing them up.
If I want a game, there are plenty of companies doing better games.
If I want pretty models to paint there are plenty of companies making better models.
If I want some cool fluff... we'll that's an area they are still ahead in but man I haven't been excited about Black Library at all recently so that's going downhill fast imo and other companies are picking up the slack.
The biggest obstacle keeping me from getting back into 40K or WHFB is the cost to get the current rulebooks. I have points worth of armies already but when I look at the total cost of purchasing all the books I'd need for either or both systems and then realize all of the minis, paint, brushes, etc. that I won't be getting due to the opportunity cost of spending a large chunk of my hobby budget on rulebooks it's easy to stay away.
I constantly think of starting up again but the combination of high prices and crap rules makes me change my mind. But I still every so often will see a figure or look at an old White Dwarf and think of playing again. Just when I look at the prices to do so or the cost of the books or even just having a cool idea that turns out to not be viable because the game isn't balanced, I shelve it again. I'm in a weird position where I know I could get games if I did play again, but it's not worth the hassle of dealing with GW and their outright lack of care. Not when I also play Warmachine with a friendly group of people and have a company that is supportive.
Maybe someday if GW gets a clue, because I can feel the urge to play rising.
FW's offerings and Knights still make me breathe heavily, but I've learned to control those urges.
If the rules become better, or the prices drop significantly, I'd probably hop on some of that plastic, but until then, my money is being spent elsewhere.
I can get a whole faction fleet of Firestorm Armada for the price of a Knight. We're talking tournament sized, competitive fleet for a little over $100CAD.
That discussion earlier seemed fun. I don't know what they expected with a thread about not buying GW products.
I still don't own the model for Farsight, and Ebay's not throwing me any bones :/ Having said that, £30 for a single model means I'll remain a part of the reason.
liquidjoshi wrote: I still don't own the model for Farsight, and Ebay's not throwing me any bones :/ Having said that, £30 for a single model means I'll remain a part of the reason.
It's a crap model, too. Two guys at my local store have one, and both have had him break in several places on them from just regular table use. He's finecast, with just a single tiny little foot there between him and whatever your base him on. He's kind of hard to pin with the angle he's at, too.
I had an email response from GW investor relations saying that they don't apologise about the price and that they don't go online because of trolls, so I'm part of it too.
I really don't want to be, but GW are forcing me to not buy their stuff through pricing me out and being arrogant donkey-caves
Davylove21 wrote: I had an email response from GW investor relations saying that they don't apologise about the price and that they don't go online because of trolls, so I'm part of it too.
I really don't want to be, but GW are forcing me to not buy their stuff through pricing me out and being arrogant donkey-caves
I forget the quote but I know they were quoted at one point for spouting some bullcrap about how their products are worth the price they're advertised at. Same like I recall a quote about their "one click collections" with $0 savings that said the same thing. They are worth full retail price, so any savings would diminish the value of the product.
If you have been out for 5 or more years you are not part of the problem. You haven't been in the equation so long you are not a factor.
If you jumped to another game system because you like it better, you are not part of the problem. You discovered a new game that better suits you - probably because you never knew other games existed. GW brought you in, it was your first game and you enjoyed it but you grew as a player , discovered there is a whole world of other games and found you liked them better. GW games just aren't for you and odds are you'll be back one day.
If you dumped 7th edition without ever having played a game you aren't part of the problem. You are just having classic nerd rage and there is no helping people like you. Your leaving the hobby was inevitable.
If you can't afford the game you aren't part of the problem. You're just broke and these games aren't for you.
We wrote: If you have been out for 5 or more years you are not part of the problem. You haven't been in the equation so long you are not a factor.
If you jumped to another game system because you like it better, you are not part of the problem. You discovered a new game that better suits you - probably because you never knew other games existed. GW brought you in, it was your first game and you enjoyed it but you grew as a player , discovered there is a whole world of other games and found you liked them better. GW games just aren't for you and odds are you'll be back one day.
If you dumped 7th edition without ever having played a game you aren't part of the problem. You are just having classic nerd rage and there is no helping people like you. Your leaving the hobby was inevitable.
If you can't afford the game you aren't part of the problem. You're just broke and these games aren't for you.
Ah yes everyone who dislikes GW is a hater or poor or a whiner. Can't be logical reasons.
I've started playing, but I don't buy directly from GW, I've gotten all my minis from Ebay and secondhand retailers, while I have yet to buy any paint or tools from them.
Case in point: Tau skin? Simple, instead of buying Russ Grey, use P3 Underbelly blue.
What odds are you offering? I could make a packet.
If you dumped 7th edition without ever having played a game you aren't part of the problem. You are just having classic nerd rage and there is no helping people like you.
'Cos everyone knows it's impossible to know you dislike crazy new rules by reading their words in a, y'know, book.
Also, says the classic white knight.
Your leaving the hobby was inevitable.
We didn't leave the hobby. We just stopped buying and playing one or two games in the hobby.
If you can't afford the game you aren't part of the problem. You're just broke and these games aren't for you.
We wrote: If you have been out for 5 or more years you are not part of the problem. You haven't been in the equation so long you are not a factor.
If you jumped to another game system because you like it better, you are not part of the problem. You discovered a new game that better suits you - probably because you never knew other games existed. GW brought you in, it was your first game and you enjoyed it but you grew as a player , discovered there is a whole world of other games and found you liked them better. GW games just aren't for you and odds are you'll be back one day.
If you dumped 7th edition without ever having played a game you aren't part of the problem. You are just having classic nerd rage and there is no helping people like you. Your leaving the hobby was inevitable.
If you can't afford the game you aren't part of the problem. You're just broke and these games aren't for you.
Some of the worst argued points that I have ever seen - since the proper response to each of those is - 'Uhm, that is why I am part of the reason'.
If you stopped playing the game five years ago and never came back or even came back, and left again - then you are part of the reason.
If you jumped to another game system because you like it better, and feel that GW kinda sucks at making rules these days then you are part of the reason
If you are not willing to pay GW prices but are perfectly willing to spend your money elsewhere - then you are part of the reason.
The problem is that GW's sales are in freefall. That people are jumping away from GW games, and playing something else instead.
Anybody that is still buying tabletop gaming products but not GW products - are part of the reason. Arguing otherwise is... well, kind of silly, really.
Each of those customers are expending moneys that are not going to GW - and they are each part of the reason.
I've been playing 40K for about 5 odd years now, well, was, and amassed quite a collection in that time, not unlike others. As you can see below, I have the models and time to play 40K should I choose - not unlike others.
However, I choose not to play 40K because of a number of reasons. While I don't buy GW products partially because of pricing, and partially because I don't wish to support the company due to its horrid attitude. But that's just it. I, like many others, choose not to play or buy GW games and products. No matter the reason, that makes all of us part of the problem.
#We'reallthereason.
Oh, and thanks for the tip about the Farsight model SRSFACE. That's a few quid saved for me
jonolikespie wrote: I've certainly found the biggest obstacle between GW and my money are the other companies out there showing them up.
If I want a game, there are plenty of companies doing better games.
Oh so correct.
If I want pretty models to paint there are plenty of companies making better models.
Sort of agree. GW still have great minis, but for the price and VALUE, other companies seem to be better.
If I want some cool fluff... we'll that's an area they are still ahead in but man I haven't been excited about Black Library at all recently so that's going downhill fast imo and other companies are picking up the slack.
Disagree. GW doesn't have great fluff anymore. It's the same fluff for over 25 years. Adding a few sentences or paragraphs, doesn't make for great fluff.
Disagree. GW doesn't have great fluff anymore. It's the same fluff for over 25 years. Adding a few sentences or paragraphs, doesn't make for great fluff.
I'd have to agree with this. After each major campaign a huge reset button is pressed. Chaos is driven back to the warp, but barely. The forces of the Imperium are victorious but now must continue their ever vigilant fight against the forces of Chaos and the Heresy. A planet might be destroyed or trade hands - but in general nothing moves forward. What's the point, other than total war?
We wrote: If you have been out for 5 or more years you are not part of the problem. You haven't been in the equation so long you are not a factor.
If you jumped to another game system because you like it better, you are not part of the problem. You discovered a new game that better suits you - probably because you never knew other games existed. GW brought you in, it was your first game and you enjoyed it but you grew as a player , discovered there is a whole world of other games and found you liked them better. GW games just aren't for you and odds are you'll be back one day.
If you dumped 7th edition without ever having played a game you aren't part of the problem. You are just having classic nerd rage and there is no helping people like you. Your leaving the hobby was inevitable.
If you can't afford the game you aren't part of the problem. You're just broke and these games aren't for you.
Wow, that was complete elitist BS.
Please tell us poor, nerd raging, common fools what is the real reason GW is failing.
Quite frankly the real reason are the massively over inflated prices, lack of care, lack of, well, everything....
But of course I am but a poor nerd raging and the HMS GW is not plunging into oblivion and is most certainly not headed by blind idiots.
No no, they are doing amazingly well and all whom say otherwise are just poor underclass less-than-man peasants whom have no lives and those finacial reports and sales figures from around the world are all blasphemous lies made by those haters and thy are not to be trusted. Only Kirby is right.
Oh and those other companies like PP and such? They are nothing but pale copies of GW's might and grace whom will not last the yea. Indeed tat is if they even exist at all, as we all know that Kirby does not belive in their existence and as such these other companies are nothing but anti GW propoganda lies and GW's products are amazingly well priced and do not resemble toddlers toys.
We wrote: GW games just aren't for you and odds are you'll be back one day
That is the problem though; there's less and less reason to go back. I get all of my gaming fixes elsewhere for much less.
Yeah.. if GW is not a game for me then whatever, but when GW's hemorrhaging sales then GW should be bending over backwards to make their game appeal to me.
We wrote: GW games just aren't for you and odds are you'll be back one day
That is the problem though; there's less and less reason to go back. I get all of my gaming fixes elsewhere for much less.
Yeah.. if GW is not a game for me then whatever, but when GW's hemorrhaging sales then GW should be bending over backwards to make their game appeal to me.
They're just shedding the dirty poor people. The game will be much better without them.
I can just picture those high-level executives stopping by a Warhammer store in their Lamborghinis, buying a single plastic Space Marine Captain to put on their desk as a status symbol for all their subordinates to see.
In fact, Warhammers should simply get it over with and hang up a sign on the door, saying "No peasants allowed". Would be much quicker than these endless, clumsy policies and relentless price bumps.
While I will still buy the odd character or box of infantry for my Mordheim activities, I used to buy every Codex/Army Book released and built up a number of 1000pt armies.
1. I disliked the 'scaling up' of a what was supposed to be a skirmish game. 40K is now Epic in 28mm.
2. They abandoned the aspect I truly loved which is the modelling of scenery and terrain. Now while I freely admit this is never going to make them vast sums of money (aside from selling modelling guides perhaps), it is what adds depth to the hobby. Do the Hornby crowd play with trains on prefabricated train set boards? No, because the entire point is making your own stuff. Ok, modelling terrain may not be the entire point of Warhammer for some people, but it was a large part of it for me.
-DE- wrote: I can just picture those high-level executives stopping by a Warhammer store in their Lamborghinis, buying a single plastic Space Marine Captain to put on their desk as a status symbol for all their subordinates to see.
In fact, Warhammers should simply get it over with and hang up a sign on the door, saying "No peasants allowed". Would be much quicker than these endless, clumsy policies and relentless price bumps.
And eventually they will have one customer - Donald Trump, who will mount gold plated Space Marines in every bedroom in the Taj....
We wrote:If you have been out for 5 or more years you are not part of the problem. You haven't been in the equation so long you are not a factor.
I helped convince a friend to not run an annual 40k tournament that usually gets 40ish people. He quit playing when 8th dropped so soon after 7th and was still going to rent the hall and put on the event anyway as the edition change was really unexpected and he felt too many of his gaming buddies expected him to put in the weekend anyway. A bunch of us had a chat about how giving up an entire weekend to run an event for a game you don't play isn't a realistic expectation for anyone. The weekend came and went at the end of summer and the event didn't happen.
People buy and build armies for events like this. They talk about it like "For the next X-con, I think I'm going to make a Nurgle army-- I really like those new Forge World models that came out" and they buy the stuff and make the army and show up with it painted at the event. So I know this is going to (indirectly) cost GW money.
When you run a business based on word of mouth advertising for a hobby that is profoundly social in nature (people playing games and talking shop with one another) you can develop a local cadre of evangelical customers who will selflessly spread the good news of your product to their friends. A veritable volunteer sales force. Or... you can create an anti-sales force that will take the opportunities that arise to show people alternatives to your product or provide reasons to not go with your company.
I think the remaining GW customers have entered into fortress mode now. Every friend contemplating an alternative set of rules or miniatures is one more potential opponent who evaporates. Enough of those and local events and gaming nights stop being scheduled. And when key motivators and action oriented individuals switch to something else, it can spell the end for a local group of 40k players. I think the hostility from the only-40k crowd is largely because they know that their approach and preference really is threatened. The next person that switches games or quits in their local area really could be the tipping point that ruins everything for them.
#I'mpartofthereason even though I haven't played 40k since late 4th.
I think that you mean 6th to 7th. 8th edition will only come out next year.
- I get the edition numbers of WFB and 40k confused given how rapidly 40k is catching up to WFB. They used to be 3 editions apart, now they're down to 1.
I have bought an alarming volume of 40k miniatures, starting up several fresh armies, over the past few months....
....and every single one (bar two exceptions) has come from eBay and has required varying degrees of salvage!
I vowed to never purchase from GW again as I watched WHFB (once my favourite pastime without question) devolve into gigantic, over-the-top monsters and the over-reliance on 'lolrandom' factors with the advent of 8th edition, and the fluff of 40k (once my favourite setting) degenerating into schoolyard fanfiction. That's not to mention the frankly appalling practices, behaviour and attitude of the company itself, the decreasing quality of their products, the creative bankruptcy present in their new ideas, and of course, the astronomic and constant price rises I stopped being able to justify as far back as the Dark Angel Veterans leaping from £12 to £15 for no appreciable reason. 7th edition 40k may well be the most ridiculous and idiotic thing of all and I reserve a special level of disdain for it.
What once was unconditional fanboy-ism on my part (I distinctly remember dismissing Warmachine in its early days because of that, a fact I'm not proud of) has been turned to a violent hatred, and I'll confess to a spiteful bias against them, wanting them to collapse as 'payback' for what they have done to games and universes I cared a great deal for - certainly I go out of my way to steer others clear of them, and to make snide comments about them in relevant conversation (and sometimes in irrelevant conversation too - such is my anger). It's a little over the top in its vitriol, perhaps, but that is the relationship the company has fostered.
As for the slew of 40k armies I mentioned at the start of the post, well, me and a friend play a house-ruled version of 5th ed 40k, because we both still like some of the older (3rd-5th ed period)models, and the universe. We just both ignore GW as an entity, and have divorced what we liked from any connection with them.
One of the things I've noticed is that previously when someone had a break from GW, they would often come back, and try a new faction etc
Now they leave and try a while new system, and I think thats the difference.
Where I live there used to be GW bunker and another store which both (circa 5 years ago) had thriving games nights. Both of those no longer happen, and you go to the local clubs (which have only really started since this void occurred) and there's whilst GW games still get played there are people trying and playing other things, it's just easier to get these now, and the alternatives steal people away
). I haven't liked what I've heard about 7th Ed so I won't be getting it. 6th is my final Edition.
don't know what came over me!
Or because Gamesworkshop found me. 
Only a few squads at the moment though.
