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My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 01:52:14


Post by: tenebre


Here is a video review of my chaos dwarf army and my experience with Blue Table Painting. Please watch and heed as a warning as well.
Chaos Dwarf Review

Follow the repaint blog here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/624649.page#7382552

LINK TO NEW THREAD:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/714878.page


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 07:36:24


Post by: winterdyne


Sucks, dude. BTP don't have a good rep, why'd you use them?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 09:32:06


Post by: YourWellPaintedArmyCom


Lol I'm wondering how much they charged you for this Please don't bypass the language like this. Reds8n ...
It's under BASE standard. The osl looks horrible disgusting. All looks horrible.... don't worth any penny to paint stuff like that. I will feel shame to show smth like that! I'm painting sometimes for my friends without charging them or taking just few penny for working time and it's looks way more better...
On your place I'll want to get my money back. Rly.
Stay strong dude.
Cheers


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 11:49:50


Post by: tenebre


winterdyne wrote:
Sucks, dude. BTP don't have a good rep, why'd you use them?


I have been away from the scene for many years but i remembered them being great. And honestly I had a hard time finding any other company in the states. Sending over $2000 worth of figs overseas was not an option. And they assured me they could do what i wanted.
I could not find any negative reviews, so i figured they were good. And they did a CD army a while back that looked cool, but they were selling that themselves so i guess they spent time on it.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 12:25:33


Post by: winterdyne


Stateside, GMM have an excellent reputation; I believe Brandon's normally booked up for around a year or so ahead (most good places are). Quite how he finds time for those AdeptiCon displays he does is beyond me. Possibly he's some kind of insane time-travelling insomniac.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 12:28:23


Post by: CptJake


Great video. Sorry you had such a bad experience with those guys.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 12:41:41


Post by: House Griffith


That sucks man. Sorry. Glad I never used that service, because I've thought about it. (I usually do all my own work, but had commission jobs done while I was deployed)

I have to point out (and I haven't watched the entirety of the video to see if you already got it) but the basing is just some cork painted black. That's it. When I lay down cork on a base, it gets primed, and then on goes a layer of texture paint, so it doesn't LOOK like cork, and then away I go with details, washes, etc...
Inexcusable for what was a costly paint job.
Looks like they're just assembly lining with no continuity just to rake in bucks.

Thanks for posting this; there's far better services out there that people will be able to use.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 13:53:43


Post by: Marshal Loss


Feel sorry for you dude, hope you can fix them up or have them fixed up for you


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 17:05:00


Post by: Romu


at one point i considered comissioning them too, after your video i'm not so sure.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 17:11:26


Post by: RiTides


BTP is far too hit-and-miss to use, imo... thanks for sharing your experience.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 17:39:37


Post by: jreilly89


That's really disappointing, man. The figures look nice, but not for being professionally commissioned. Also, the handling time is abysmal. Crappy way to find out, but I guess live and learn on using BTP


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 17:42:25


Post by: Bandages


That's a pity, as those Forgeworld CD's are stunning. Hope it all works out in the end.

On a side note, I recognise you from your previous line of work.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 17:55:21


Post by: StormKing


Wow that really sucks. How much did you pay? You said in the video it coated what 4x the cost of the models alone just for the painting?

The models don't look to bad but I think that the cost of them painting and them always being late (I have heard this around before) really sucks and makes it not worth it.

I will be painting my army myself haha


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 18:11:37


Post by: DarkTraveler777


tenebre, PM sent.

As winterdyne suggested, GMM is great as is Garden Ninja Studios.

There are plenty of quality paint studios in the US. I used BTP about 10 years back and had some initial successes with them, but subsequent commissions went south and I avoid them now entirely. I wouldn't recommend their paint service to anyone, but their assembly/conversion services seem solid. I can't comment on their turn around time, as its been a decade since I used them and I doubt anyone but Shawn is still part of the operation from that far back.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 18:39:16


Post by: Johnnytorrance


I too was strongly considering having them do some work for me. Glad you posted a video. Sorry you spent good money on that.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 19:04:40


Post by: PastelAvenger


I will be honest I didn't watch all the video and this was mainly due to the close ups, they were always being shown to the bottom of the camera and I couldn't see what was actually wrong.

I do have one question though, why did you pay for it if you weren't happy? I have had commission work done before now and I get detailed 360 pictures sent before any cash exchanges hands. It's pretty obvious the Lamasu (spell?) wasn't up to scratch so why not just tell them you don't believe that is level 4 and detail what you expect to see using the examples on there site to back up your claim.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 19:12:23


Post by: CptJake


 PastelAvenger wrote:
I will be honest I didn't watch all the video and this was mainly due to the close ups, they were always being shown to the bottom of the camera and I couldn't see what was actually wrong.

I do have one question though, why did you pay for it if you weren't happy? I have had commission work done before now and I get detailed 360 pictures sent before any cash exchanges hands. It's pretty obvious the Lamasu (spell?) wasn't up to scratch so why not just tell them you don't believe that is level 4 and detail what you expect to see using the examples on there site to back up your claim.


He explained in the video. You have to pay 65% up front, if you refuse to pay the rest they sell off your stuff, keeping what they make and the 65%.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 19:14:00


Post by: Eldarain


 PastelAvenger wrote:
I will be honest I didn't watch all the video and this was mainly due to the close ups, they were always being shown to the bottom of the camera and I couldn't see what was actually wrong.

I do have one question though, why did you pay for it if you weren't happy? I have had commission work done before now and I get detailed 360 pictures sent before any cash exchanges hands. It's pretty obvious the Lamasu (spell?) wasn't up to scratch so why not just tell them you don't believe that is level 4 and detail what you expect to see using the examples on there site to back up your claim.

He goes into it in the video.

Apparently they want a 65% deposit upfront. Their "work" is subject to such extensive delays that your paypal window is closed before they are done your project in many cases. There seems to be a worry that getting back your army if you don't pay might be difficult and it might be sold to someone else.

This is just the latest in a string of really bad experiences I've seen people have with BTP. The "quality" they are painting is deplorable for the prices they are requesting.

I appreciate your taking the time to make this video to help others see what they might be getting into.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 19:14:37


Post by: winterdyne


Which I'm sure is illegal. Or at least should be.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 19:23:30


Post by: House Griffith


 PastelAvenger wrote:
I will be honest I didn't watch all the video and this was mainly due to the close ups, they were always being shown to the bottom of the camera and I couldn't see what was actually wrong.

I do have one question though, why did you pay for it if you weren't happy? I have had commission work done before now and I get detailed 360 pictures sent before any cash exchanges hands. It's pretty obvious the Lamasu (spell?) wasn't up to scratch so why not just tell them you don't believe that is level 4 and detail what you expect to see using the examples on there site to back up your claim.


Yeah, he addresses this towards the end of the video.

If anyone is looking for a good stateside studio for commission work, I recommend Stiff Neck Studio.
They do quality work and were very good regarding updates and input for the direction of the job they were paid for.
They have also donated armies for auction to past NOVA Opens, for reference as to armies you may have seen.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 19:29:15


Post by: Theophony


PayPal just changed to 180 days for disputes though, so I'd look into that if your in that timeframe.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 20:23:36


Post by: tenebre


paypal wont take the dispute because its too old.

The close ups are by request of the Chaos Dwarf online forum

I did explain the pictures, It takes a week to get a picture and 360 pics never happen. I could not even get pictures of each model when i asked. I refused the models 3 times and still could not get pictures that i requested. I gave up and paid the last installment so i could at least get the models back. It literally took 10 days to get the hats painted on the war machine crew and get a picture.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 22:19:26


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Out of interest, how much did they charge for the "level 6" on the Drazhoath the Ashen (big bull thingy)?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/08 22:51:45


Post by: Quarterdime


I got a level 5 hero painted by BTP once. And his retinue painted at level 4. On both minis they didn't stay inside the lines when it came to details. On pretty much anything. I was shocked that they actually, for example, painted the nail on a clenched fist further up the finger, leaving the actual nail painted the color of the skin. Still, that's not the worst part of BTP.

The worst part was the customer service. I gave them concise and well formatted instructions and they half listened, apparently if you say "different colors" they just don't even bother and paint them all the same color anyway. When I called to correct the order they told me to just give them my address and they'd send them out. At that point my confidence in them was shot and I just complied and they sent over my models. I had to basically repaint them all myself.

P.S. Don't ask them to paint gemstones either, they don't. They'll paint it 2 colors that leak off the gem and call it a day. If they even paint it at all. Some of them were just left as black blotches that covered not only the gem but the surrounding area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
tenebre, PM sent.

I wouldn't recommend their paint service to anyone, but their assembly/conversion services seem solid.


If that was ever good it isn't anymore. I had them assemble 1 miniature, the hero I mentioned earlier. He had 2 weapon options, and I specified which one I wanted. That's right, they didn't listen AND got it wrong. I feel like even if you don't listen there's still that chance that you'll use the right one by accident, but I guess I got unlucky twice in a row. It makes me wonder if they wanted the same weapon to use as a bit, which they did keep as a bit, by the way. They keep all the bits unless you specify otherwise. Just kidding, that's just what they tell you. I specified otherwise and they still didn't send them.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 01:50:48


Post by: tenebre


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Out of interest, how much did they charge for the "level 6" on the Drazhoath the Ashen (big bull thingy)?


about $250


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 02:13:36


Post by: jreilly89


tenebre wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Out of interest, how much did they charge for the "level 6" on the Drazhoath the Ashen (big bull thingy)?


about $250

Jesus.Is this something you can take them to small claims court for? I assume you have emails of your conversations. I feel like there's a point where it goes beyond "yeah, just deal with it" to "this is a lot of money". Also, I believe Paypal changed their limit to 180 days now, not sure if that affects your payment


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 02:38:56


Post by: Peregrine


tenebre wrote:
paypal wont take the dispute because its too old.


Talk to your credit card company and report it as a case of fraud and extortion (holding your models hostage for the remaining 35%). With a little luck the bank will take your side because they want to keep the customer happy and don't care about the business, and they'll reverse the transaction. Alternatively, consider suing them if they won't give you a refund. If their work is clearly below the promised standards and their business is clearly designed around "take long enough that the dispute window closes and the customer can't do anything about our scam" the court might side with you, or BTP might just give you a refund because it's cheaper than paying their lawyers to deal with you.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 03:43:43


Post by: slk28850


Have you sent them the email yet and if so how did they respond?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 04:14:02


Post by: kronicpsycho


O dear :O
I hope they fix it all up for you mate.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 04:52:57


Post by: StormBringer328


Wow, what an experience! I was actually thinking about having a few things worked on and was looking at them to do it. Only because I've never had a commission job done and they were the ones that first came to mind. A lot of it looks like lazy, rushed work. If they were ever a good painting service, they seem to have lost their heart.

If I were you I would find a way to dispute this. I can understand not wanting to - feeling like you won something just by getting your stuff back. But someone needs to give BTP a bug up their ass so they change their ways. I can't believe they basically hold your minis ransom!?!?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 07:38:36


Post by: winterdyne


$250 is not a lot for a monstrous creature (to a decent level). I would almost certainly be charging around twice that, not including model, shipping, or nonstandard basing costs.

However, I'd probably be spending around 50 hours on it.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 11:15:57


Post by: tenebre


I was did not see any of the army until they posted that video on youtube even after asking for work in progress pics for 8 weeks straight.

He has emailed me and I will post when a resolution of some kind comes out of it. So far no offer has been made.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 11:47:29


Post by: YourWellPaintedArmyCom


250$ for...... this ????
dear lord....


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 12:20:33


Post by: tenebre


 YourWellPaintedArmyCom wrote:
250$ for...... this ????
dear lord....

Anyone thinking the price isnt high enough for that level.. i said I want a showcase army.. what level is that? before getting a quote.
keep in mind that was level 6 (they claim 7 is golden daemon level)

Also this is after i told them to fix it 3 times! (the first time the entire underside and face of the bull was solid primer. No eyes teeth or anything. They had 4 chances to fix the prolbme si mentioned in the video. I asked for these to be fixed when i saw the first video posted.

If you go back and look at their first video you can see it was even worse. as I explain it became clear after the 3rd round of "fixes" they were not going to fix anything, just make me wait a week then send a picture or two of a different model.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 13:22:45


Post by: winterdyne


Any service claiming to do Golden Demon level work really should have Golden Demon finalist (at least) stuff to show and ideally done as commission, not personal works. If they don't (and BTP most definitely don't) then there is a certain amount of caveat emptor at play.

This said, I'm actually pretty shocked by how bad that army is, even for the money you paid. You got terrible service, there's no argument there.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 15:58:31


Post by: Brother SRM


I knew BTP were bad, and I've known this since way back when I was doing commissions. This transcends bad and goes to robbery though. That's a really extensive and excellent video, and while it sucks that you had to go through it, it will hopefully serve as a stern warning against folks considering using them in the future.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 16:09:50


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 Quarterdime wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
tenebre, PM sent.

I wouldn't recommend their paint service to anyone, but their assembly/conversion services seem solid.


If that was ever good it isn't anymore. I had them assemble 1 miniature, the hero I mentioned earlier. He had 2 weapon options, and I specified which one I wanted. That's right, they didn't listen AND got it wrong. I feel like even if you don't listen there's still that chance that you'll use the right one by accident, but I guess I got unlucky twice in a row. It makes me wonder if they wanted the same weapon to use as a bit, which they did keep as a bit, by the way. They keep all the bits unless you specify otherwise. Just kidding, that's just what they tell you. I specified otherwise and they still didn't send them.


Ugh, that is awful. Too bad that even the conversion/modeling portion of their service has suffered. Sorry that you had that experience with them. Did you get any resolution out of them for the improper assembly?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 20:47:54


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


I've watched your video and I'm appalled they'd have the brass nerve to charge anything for that.

A forge world army, that you've basically hurled money at them to do and they produced that... and that's the results AFTER your initial complaints.

The command group... that standard bearer, are a joke. The delays are ridiculous, the lack of a completed army, the inconsistencies across each unit and the lazy woeful slapped together overall feel... the fact the entire underside of the giant bull wasn't initially even painted despite being turned upward on the model.


This entire army has been given the 'shake n bake' treatment and I'm impressed at your restraint in the video, I'd be using far stronger language.


Shawn @ Blue Table, you dropped the ball totally on this, either offer this guy a refund on the paint or sort it out for him fully and quickly! It's a disgrace.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 20:58:15


Post by: Stevefamine


BTP has a horrible rep

Did you research them before?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 21:54:46


Post by: tenebre


 Stevefamine wrote:
BTP has a horrible rep

Did you research them before?


I did but honestly did NOT find any of these bad rep reports. this was the reason i made my own review. To help others.

I have been away from the hobby for many years and when i was in BTP had a good rep, at that time.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 22:25:31


Post by: MightyGodzilla


Someone should get BTP on this thread. I'm curious as to how they respond.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 22:39:44


Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)


 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Someone should get BTP on this thread. I'm curious as to how they respond.


They have been known to delete bad reviews/comments from their youtube channel, facebook and anywhere else that will let them.

They were on here when the last of these threads popped up about a year or so ago when they tried to launch a kickstarter to fund selling people pre-painted armies which if I recall failed miserably.

As to pricing.... yea, thats really high.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 22:42:36


Post by: quickfuze


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phM2Jw3kjqM

Here is how BTP describes this same army lol...BTP is a joke. It should be fraud for them to use the term Pro-paint..
Welcome to the age of drybrush and washes...where everyone thinks they can paint

Side-note: Sweet Jesus those wolf riders are big lol


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 22:54:19


Post by: Eldarain


 quickfuze wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phM2Jw3kjqM

Here is how BTP describes this same army lol...BTP is a joke. It should be fraud for them to use the term Pro-paint..
Welcome to the age of drybrush and washes...where everyone thinks they can paint

Side-note: Sweet Jesus those wolf riders are big lol

Yeah. That was painful to watch/listen to.

"The client requested a muted palette"

So we just left Primer on 50% of the army.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 23:35:38


Post by: Howard A Treesong


winterdyne wrote:
Which I'm sure is illegal. Or at least should be.


I'm pretty sure it is illegal because even while the miniatures are in their possession they are not their property to do as their please. Should a client not pay for work done, regardless of the validity of their complaint, the right way to settle the matter is through small claims court or similar. The dispute over payment can then be thrashed out as can the ownership of the miniatures. At no point are you allowed to just sell someone else's property to recover non-payment or a debt when the matter has not even been before some legal authority to decide if there is a debt that needs to be covered.

BTP sound pretty crooked using tactics to coerce people into paying for services they were mis-sold (the standards offered clearly were no where near that supplied) and clearly unhappy with.

I had difficulty seeing exactly on the video, but the work looked like a mix of drybrushing and airbrushing over a black base. There was very little effort put into picking out detail or differentiating the many different parts of the miniature. One of the larger figures shown was just all the same looking, broad highlighting over black, despite the armour clearly being varied and patchwork in nature which should lend itself to a complex finish. What a shame such an expensive set of miniatures will have to now undergo a rescue effort.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 23:38:40


Post by: Yodhrin


That's....atrocious. Honestly the two things that really stick out to me are the fact they just decided to do the crummy OSL job on every model without even asking you first, and that they simply appropriated the money from your conversion budget seemingly without doing any actual conversions.

I hope you get it sorted somehow, the least they could do is refund the difference between whatever you paid and the basic level paintjob they obviously did.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 23:57:15


Post by: Azazelx


That's awful. Disgustingly so. I'd be taling to my credit card company, as described above.

The "Red lava glow" looks like it was a godsend to their lazy arses - let them get away with not painting most of most of those models and instead just give it a once-over run with the airbrush.

I'd offer to touch-up and detail your Taur'Ruk for free, if you were willing to cover the shipping both ways. Though it wouldn't look the same as the rest of the army anymore if I did that - in that it would no longer look like a black-primed model airbrushed with red..


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/09 23:57:19


Post by: curran12


I've used BTP a few times (last time was about a year ago) and their customer service is atrocious. When I first worked with them, when they were much smaller, the service was actually pretty good. But since then I've had details ignored, armies forgotten about and absolutely no communication from them. I hope this video gets signal boosted and spread, because they are extremely complacent now.

But yeah, I've had to wait the better part of a year for a Sisters project that they didn't even START until past the "late" deadline.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 00:34:39


Post by: tenebre


 Azazelx wrote:
That's awful. Disgustingly so. I'd be taling to my credit card company, as described above.

The "Red lava glow" looks like it was a godsend to their lazy arses - let them get away with not painting most of most of those models and instead just give it a once-over run with the airbrush.



especially because i did NOT ask for GLOW. I asked for "Blood and Gore to exceed that of a SAW film." not GLOW

He replied on the YT channel. But i havent heard fro him other than he is 'thinking of a solution." He is mad i posted the review. But i said "I want a showcase army that I will use for youtube battle reports" at the beginning so I don't understand how he thinks it would never be shown.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 00:57:34


Post by: Azazelx


Blood and gore? Really? Mate, I'm sorry, but that just mad me burst out laughing. There's no blood and gore there.

Of course he's mad. But tough gak. It's what we call "natural consequences".


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 01:02:32


Post by: Swastakowey


Sorry cant watch the video.

But I was wondering if you could post what you asked them to do, how long it took and maybe post some pics?

I had a glance but I cant have sound where I am and wouldnt mind getting more incite into this.

From what i can see they look like cheaply animated cartoon models. I wonder how much time they spent on that?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 01:16:19


Post by: Seriqolm


 quickfuze wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phM2Jw3kjqM

Here is how BTP describes this same army lol...BTP is a joke. It should be fraud for them to use the term Pro-paint..
Welcome to the age of drybrush and washes...where everyone thinks they can paint

Side-note: Sweet Jesus those wolf riders are big lol



I noticed that video is uploaded at 480p when many of their other videos are at 1080p, I wonder why, hmmm!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 05:02:15


Post by: Azazelx


Probably worth making a copy of the BTP one of that army just in case it comes down...

As for the stuff shown in the OP's video... I thought about it this afternoon. I've been doing a bunch of Gondor/Minas Tirith troops for the past few months. I find them bland, and not something especially worth showing off as individuals. Not models I'm especially proud of compared to others, and so I haven't to date. When they're all done, they'll look great as a finished army, so I'm waiting for that. Still, every single one of them has their straps painted and I'd be embarrassed as feth if they were finished to the degree of your $17/head Chaos Dwarves.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 05:31:19


Post by: jreilly89


 quickfuze wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phM2Jw3kjqM

Here is how BTP describes this same army lol...BTP is a joke. It should be fraud for them to use the term Pro-paint..
Welcome to the age of drybrush and washes...where everyone thinks they can paint

Side-note: Sweet Jesus those wolf riders are big lol


Just watched that. Wow. Why is the Hellcannon's mouth inside and outside the same color??

The bulls are okay looking, and even some of the dwarves. Seriously, the army doesn't look half bad, but not at that price and not at the skill level they claim to provide.

"This is where BTP shines." Yeah, obviously not


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 06:44:35


Post by: -Loki-


They're not bad (arguably) if you wanted, and paid for, tabletop quality. When you wanted and paid for showcase quality, it's insulting. It's basically giving the client a huge birdie.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 06:46:59


Post by: Azazelx


Agreed - as an army it passes the "four foot test" well. If someone was showing it off as something they'd done themselves, I'd be praising it. As a "professionally"-painted army, it's not worth the $17/model base, and god only knows what was charged for the larger models.

To be fair to BTP, though - I assume some of that fee covers cleaning, assembly, (cork?) basing to give that lava floe effect, and magnetising them - which is a lot of fething about and isn't something I'd be cheap on charging - since it's a right pain in the arse. Especially assembling those CD Warmachines. I haven't taken on clients for years now, but I'd charge a fair bit more, but the quality would be that much higher as well. It seems like BTP put more effort into the assembly, magnetising and basing than on the painting.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 07:03:03


Post by: Mecha_buddha


I will start by saying I am not connected to BTP and have no inside information. My entire post is speculation from watching their videos and reading information posted about them on various boards.

The business has expanded and contracted a few times. but there was a core of artists that stuck around. now it seems to be a revolving door of zero experience painters. All of the old skilled painters have left. They occasionally appear to do a few one off contract commissions but they are not there to mentor new painters.

Even the admin staff seems to cycle through that place in short order, again always new faces on the videos.

The catalyst to this seems to be a change in how BTP was run. for a long time Shawn ran the company with a woman named Sarah (not sure if her last name was ever mentioned) She seems to be out of the picture now and around the same time BTP started to hemorrhage all of their long term artists.

They now seemed more concerned about pushing projects out the door rather than any sort of quality.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 07:12:44


Post by: -Loki-


There's no problem with a high turnover of painters. All sorts of businesses hire inexperienced people and still get them to eventually turn out good work. Training and quality control measures exist for a reason.

These are the same quality control measures they claim to have a lot of (in the Youtube comment from the OP's video) that failed. There's the problem - quality control is failing. When that happens, you offer compensation to a paying client - in my experience, if it's an expensive error, a full do-over isn't unwarranted - and revise your systems you have in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Ignoring the client, ignoring their requests, producing a low quality product when they asked and paid for a high quality product, then making no effort to actually resolve the issue other than 'we're looking into it' is piss poor customer service and a piss poor way to run a business.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 08:21:31


Post by: OgreChubbs


well to be fair maybe the skullz and heads are the same colour as the bull tauros lol


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 10:41:40


Post by: RoninXiC


I do like the overall look of your army. It IS a sweet looking ARMY. But the thing is: You payed for more than that.. you paid for indidivual miniature quality... and that's not exactly what you got :(


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 10:43:04


Post by: Quarterdime


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Quarterdime wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
tenebre, PM sent.

I wouldn't recommend their paint service to anyone, but their assembly/conversion services seem solid.


If that was ever good it isn't anymore. I had them assemble 1 miniature, the hero I mentioned earlier. He had 2 weapon options, and I specified which one I wanted. That's right, they didn't listen AND got it wrong. I feel like even if you don't listen there's still that chance that you'll use the right one by accident, but I guess I got unlucky twice in a row. It makes me wonder if they wanted the same weapon to use as a bit, which they did keep as a bit, by the way. They keep all the bits unless you specify otherwise. Just kidding, that's just what they tell you. I specified otherwise and they still didn't send them.


Ugh, that is awful. Too bad that even the conversion/modeling portion of their service has suffered. Sorry that you had that experience with them. Did you get any resolution out of them for the improper assembly?


No, I told you that my confidence in BTP has been shot. Contacting them is a hassle because they rarely reply via email. The first email has about a one in four chance of getting a response, which is why you need to message them every 2 days or call them, at which point they'll tell you that they're sorry. I know this because I already went through this went them over a 6 month period prior to the order. I figured I'd put my faith in them with a $900 army order but unfortunately they forgot to even start it because I asked them to order the models themselves (as they have advertised they can do) and they never did. And considering I paid the first $450 of that order in model trade-ins and told them I'd pay them in money for the other half, I never paid them in money. But they still made out with those models like thieves. The only silver lining to any of it is they put me through to Shawn and agreed to let me pay for 7 models I sent them entirely in store credit, which they normally don't do. By the time they said "just send us the address and we'll send them out" I felt like they were tired of dealing with me and were on the verge of doing something drastic like keeping the models. I really do not want to even talk to them any more. I consider my losses irretrievable at this point.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 11:50:44


Post by: tenebre


 Quarterdime wrote:

No, I told you that my confidence in BTP has been shot. Contacting them is a hassle because they rarely reply via email. The first email has about a one in four chance of getting a response, which is why you need to message them every 2 days or call them, at which point they'll tell you that they're sorry. I know this because I already went through this went them over a 6 month period prior to the order. I figured I'd put my faith in them with a $900 army order but unfortunately they forgot to even start it because I asked them to order the models themselves (as they have advertised they can do) and they never did. And considering I paid the first $450 of that order in model trade-ins and told them I'd pay them in money for the other half, I never paid them in money. But they still made out with those models like thieves. The only silver lining to any of it is they put me through to Shawn and agreed to let me pay for 7 models I sent them entirely in store credit, which they normally don't do. By the time they said "just send us the address and we'll send them out" I felt like they were tired of dealing with me and were on the verge of doing something drastic like keeping the models. I really do not want to even talk to them any more. I consider my losses irretrievable at this point.


This communication is DEAD on. If you get them on the phone you will get pleasant lip service but no action comes from it. and emails often go ignored.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 12:14:07


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


It appears that Blue Table has far too much on it's plate to handle, that Shawn says yes to everything and makes promises initially that he is ultimately unable to meet.

I know way back when I first started watching their videos that they put out some very cool armies with really nice individual conversions. Shawn always seemed a genuine guy in the videos. It looks very much to me that they have increased their intake without matching the level of staff and due diligence, hence the lack of communication, the huge delays and worst of all, the totally gakky painting.

I would hope this incident serves as a wake up call, but as the OP has said, Shawn is angry about this being made public instead of kept under wraps and containable. He shouldn't be angry, he should be grateful someone's very publicly identified serious issues with his business so he can work to put them straight.

Because this isn't the first time we've seen this sort of fall out from Blue Table lately, it's certainly the loudest so far, but there's been complaint after complaint surfacing about the company, along very similar lines, for some time.

Shawn, if multiple complaints are arising about the same issues, simple Root Cause Analysis and Process Improvement can put that right and strengthen your business.

It's a free troubleshooting session, if you choose to treat it as such. Look for the causes of complaint and work out how to change them and improve. You're being given a chance to improve now or ignore and suffer consequence, this hobby is internationally linked now via sites like these, word of mouth and reputation are all. Use this free feedback or ignore it at your peril.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 12:29:55


Post by: tenebre


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It appears that Blue Table has far too much on it's plate to handle, that Shawn says yes to everything and makes promises initially that he is ultimately unable to meet.

I know way back when I first started watching their videos that they put out some very cool armies with really nice individual conversions. Shawn always seemed a genuine guy in the videos. It looks very much to me that they have increased their intake without matching the level of staff and due diligence, hence the lack of communication, the huge delays and worst of all, the totally gakky painting.

I would hope this incident serves as a wake up call, but as the OP has said, Shawn is angry about this being made public instead of kept under wraps and containable. He shouldn't be angry, he should be grateful someone's very publicly identified serious issues with his business so he can work to put them straight.

Because this isn't the first time we've seen this sort of fall out from Blue Table lately, it's certainly the loudest so far, but there's been complaint after complaint surfacing about the company, along very similar lines, for some time.

Shawn, if multiple complaints are arising about the same issues, simple Root Cause Analysis and Process Improvement can put that right and strengthen your business.

It's a free troubleshooting session, if you choose to treat it as such. Look for the causes of complaint and work out how to change them and improve. You're being given a chance to improve now or ignore and suffer consequence, this hobby is internationally linked now via sites like these, word of mouth and reputation are all. Use this free feedback or ignore it at your peril.


Exactly... not to mention when i client comes to you with a high $ project that they say will be used for public display.... Assign a dedicated PM for that project. But certainly do not be surprised when that product is on public display.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 12:36:23


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


tenebre wrote:

Exactly... not to mention when i client comes to you with a high $ project that they say will be used for public display.... Assign a dedicated PM for that project. But certainly do not be surprised when that product is on public display.


I listened to your video from end to end, it was a very fair and forgiving assessment, you gave them credit where ever you could find it, it's just a shame there was so little to praise about any of it.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 21:35:20


Post by: TheAuldGrump


Ummm.... those are what Blue Table thinks are showcase quality?

Those... umm... yeah....

Not the worst that I have seen, but definitely among the worst for that price.

By any chance, do you have a copy of the original order as you made it to them - their excuse seems to be that they decided what you wanted, rather than painting what you said that you wanted.

I don't know about you, but when I say that 'I want blood and gore' I generally do not mean 'I want lava glow'.... Hell... if they used the technique that I think that they used... I would do it myself rather than pay $5 a figure, let along $17.

I really get ticked off when somebody tries to tell me what I wanted rather than asking me....

The Auld Grump


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/10 23:54:14


Post by: tenebre


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Ummm.... those are what Blue Table thinks are showcase quality?

Those... umm... yeah....

Not the worst that I have seen, but definitely among the worst for that price.

By any chance, do you have a copy of the original order as you made it to them - their excuse seems to be that they decided what you wanted, rather than painting what you said that you wanted.

I don't know about you, but when I say that 'I want blood and gore' I generally do not mean 'I want lava glow'.... Hell... if they used the technique that I think that they used... I would do it myself rather than pay $5 a figure, let along $17.

I really get ticked off when somebody tries to tell me what I wanted rather than asking me....

The Auld Grump


Of course i hate it When i get a response or decide he is not going to respond to me I will go over the original order.
From my sheet I wanted the llamasu to look like this only red: http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/773_sphinxofuthuun.jpg
The sample i gave for my hellcannon: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Mo6m2xs6ZzY/SxMyEKWb_eI/AAAAAAAAAnk/VXX62YWLNe0/s1600/hc3.jpg
I did send the pictures from the Tamrukhan book and NONE of the models look like that. The dwarves in the book all have boltgun metal armour under the red rust color as well.
Also i asked for one of the magma cannons to be spewing blue sorcerer fire.. as you can see he did "exactly" what i wanted. I asked for status weekly and received none. I saw their "idea" the same time as anyone else on youtube. No one ever spoke to me even though i asked for WIP photos and a demo model before starting.

But all of that is irrelevant.. compared to the "quality" of what they did do. Had their ideas been true 4-6 level I probably would not have minded.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 00:14:56


Post by: curran12


Aside from the comment on your video, have you heard anything else from BTP?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 00:38:55


Post by: tenebre


 curran12 wrote:
Aside from the comment on your video, have you heard anything else from BTP?


He sent me an email last night and this morning stating he was still "preparing" a response ..... because i had "chosen to take this to the court of public opinion"

thats it.

I still dont get that... who would pay that much for an army and NEVER show anyone?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 00:59:45


Post by: curran12


Ugh, what a scummy reply. Why would your review affect anything?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 01:26:36


Post by: Eldarain


tenebre wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
Aside from the comment on your video, have you heard anything else from BTP?


He sent me an email last night and this morning stating he was still "preparing" a response ..... because i had "chosen to take this to the court of public opinion"

thats it.

I still dont get that... who would pay that much for an army and NEVER show anyone?

How much faith can you have in your commission service if you hope to hide your painted figures from the public? Shady all the way around.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 01:48:51


Post by: Riquende


Weren't these the guys that tried that scam kickstarter?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 01:57:23


Post by: Breotan


I don't know if it was technically a scam or not but it violated KS rules because it was basically using crowdfunding to purchase supplies so they could build/sell armies and not really a project in and of itself. They offered "credit" toward getting your own army painted in return. It really wasn't a good deal for the people pledging and it went down in flames rightly so.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 03:20:47


Post by: Azazelx


tenebre wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
Aside from the comment on your video, have you heard anything else from BTP?


He sent me an email last night and this morning stating he was still "preparing" a response ..... because i had "chosen to take this to the court of public opinion"

thats it.

I still dont get that... who would pay that much for an army and NEVER show anyone?


What a fething idiot. People review goods and service all the time. Make sure your gak is up to scratch and you'll get glowing reviews - which I'm sure he wouldn't complain about "the court of public opinion" for.

Me, I still think you should be doing a VISA chargeback.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 03:42:46


Post by: Breotan


Preparing a response? So, dinner and a show then?



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 07:53:49


Post by: Sining


This should be interesting. Isn't this the same BTP that was accused by an ex-employee of horrible mistreatment of its painting staff? This was during their KS iirc


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 08:45:20


Post by: curran12


What kind of accusations, Sining? I never heard about this.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 09:16:27


Post by: Sining


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/483683.page#5002320

Was discussed in this thread I believe

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/477183.page

And this
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/comment-page-1/#comments


Absolutely pertinent to the whole "validity of BTP Kickstarter project" debate:

(taken from TGN thread)

"BTPemployee wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 2:42 pm

I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.

The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.

I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And from the TMP page


I was paid $8.00 an hour. I was there 8 AM to 7-8 PM Mon-Thu and 8-noon Fri but claimed only 40 hours because overtime was not authorized. I was told at 1130 AM on Friday by Josh that I was not authorized overtime and that “they” wanted to talk to me later. I took the hint and packed my stuff and left. I drove straight through back to Texas 22 hours, calling my wife on the way to tell her I was heading home and that she had been right (ugh).

My cost for the entire trip to/from plus lodging was over $1,000.

I was initially interviewed by Shawn via Skype. Art Director Josh sat in. Shawn asked the questions and after each question, he would mute the mic and lean over to Josh and interpret to him the meaning of my response. Several times he missed the mute and I should have known then to forget it, but I was sucked in by what I took to be an opportunity I might one day regret not going for.

In one instance during the interview, in response to question Shawn asked about my willingness to work for what they were paying, I told him that I get a disability retirement check from the military that gives me a bit of a cushion. He asked me to wait and talked to Josh – without muting – about how careful you have to be hiring disabled people and all the ADA rules. So in my opinion he might have just offered me the trial to be safe but never had any intention of keeping me on. Too bad for him, though, he would have received a $14,800 tax break for hiring a disabled vet.

At the end of the Skype interview – about 35 minutes – they invited me out for a trial.

They sublet a 4 bedroom house and rent out the rooms (part of Hollingsgate or whatever they call their joint real estate venture that also runs Valhalla). I was told by Shawn it was $15.00/night when interviewed but it turned out Sarah charged me $25.00 (better than $65 for a hotel, but still not what they had told me).

My accomodation was a small room with no furniture other than a single-wide bed with a sleeping bag on top of the mattress. I signed a 3 or 4 page rental agreement for 6 nights. I left Friday so did not use 2 nights I paid in advance for. Of course they kept the money. I returned the key to the house but never got my $10.00 key deposit back either.

I was referred to as “newbie” by a several people. Few introduced themselves, though I must admit I really like Mrs. Gately, whose sunglasses I repaired. She was very nice. So was Jon.

I was never invited out to lunch or over to anyone’s house or out gaming. Never met with Shawn and he skipped right past me during his famous Studio Updates. The only time we spoke was in passing. A few of the others were just downright rude.

Though Josh called me “Padawan” once or twice, I was never taught anything. Oh, he did once ask me why I was using my own brushes and straight away brought me over a fistful of hobby brushes more suited to painting a mural than a miniature. I did not use them . . . I couldn’t.

I’ve been painting miniatures since 1987, but was willing to learn some new stuff but got nothing. I think that I painted as good or better than anyone there from what I saw – and as fast – but did not really get a good feel for the talent level because of the assembly-line-hurry-up-nature of the place.

I received an art scholarship when I was 10 years old. I have B.S. degrees in history and art. I am a hard worker. I’ve done work for the Smithsonian and for numerous museums and private individuals, but looked forward to learning what they had to teach me. I have 25 years miniatures painting experience. I worked for President Bush for 2-1/2 years taking care of all of his art and memorabilia. I was a museum curator for 5 years. But apparently I fell short.

Those are the facts and an opinion or two. Can’t say much more than that. I do know that BTP has a huge painter turnover issue and must need painters bad. Check out the recent group photo on the BTP blog. Only 4 or 5 out of the 16 people in the picture are full-time painters.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 13:14:12


Post by: tenebre


He responded to me this morning.

He offered 4 solutions. 2 of which involved me sending my army to them therefore those are not on the table.

one was a partial refund (half of the partial refund i requested)
The other was an offer to fly a painted to me to repaint.

I asked about the details of the second one. Honestly if he is willing to do that it at least says a lot about commitment to customer service.

The refund is nowhere near enough to get a repaint so that would only soften the blow.
Once he responds on the specifics of having someone come to me to repaint then I will inform you all as well.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:18:01


Post by: Quarterdime


tenebre wrote:
He responded to me this morning.

He offered 4 solutions. 2 of which involved me sending my army to them therefore those are not on the table.

one was a partial refund (half of the partial refund i requested)
The other was an offer to fly a painted to me to repaint.

I asked about the details of the second one. Honestly if he is willing to do that it at least says a lot about commitment to customer service.

The refund is nowhere near enough to get a repaint so that would only soften the blow.
Once he responds on the specifics of having someone come to me to repaint then I will inform you all as well.


Fly a painter to you? That sounds too good to be true. Maybe you'll have to pay for that, too.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:20:47


Post by: winterdyne


Uh what, seriously? Is he mental? Those responses are extremely bizarre.

I'm sorry, but you need several man-months of decent quality work doing to hit the standard you've asked for. I fail to see how dispatching one painter to you (presumably being paid by the company - or are you to pay them for their time?) makes any kind of sense whatsoever.

I wonder if any of those offers have some sort of 'gag request' added to them?

The second artwork leaves an artist or studio, their reputation is on the line. It has to be to the agreed standard or word will get around (especially in a niche field like wargames miniatures).

It's not your remit to protect BTP's reputation or bottom line, it's theirs. Stick to your guns, keep plugging your story and sooner or later BTP will have to refund in full, or risk continued critical damage to an already shaky reputation. You've said you've already written off your losses, so to me this looks a principle thing rather than a financial 'client trying to cheap out' one. Absolutely the worst kind of complaint to get. That you offered them the get out of a refund to the lower level of work speaks to your honesty in the matter (and I hope you have a record of the offer).

Most commission places I know are happy to stand out 'in the court of public opinion' and defend their pricing, product and practices.




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:26:28


Post by: heartserenade


Fly a painter? Seriously?

I think it's better if you just get a refund. Then hire another painting company to fix the things you don't like with said refund.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:36:14


Post by: Johnnytorrance


I have 2000 point FW upgrade plague marine army, 36 troops, 4 obliterators, 4 rhinos, 1 turkey. All painted, all champions are magnetized.

I was offered $105 in paint work credit. I was left a little confused. He offered me 4 different types of credit. $40 I think for models or something. I'm glad I saw your review. I almost sent him two small army's.

I always thought they were reputable.
Running a painting service has got to be one of the most difficult businesses to run.
One person's standard is not always going to be seen in the same light by another.

I could never do it. Unless I improve my speed painting skills.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:40:40


Post by: tenebre


 heartserenade wrote:
Fly a painter? Seriously?

I think it's better if you just get a refund. Then hire another painting company to fix the things you don't like with said refund.


The refund he offered is only about 20% so not enough to get a repaint. I got a quote for the repaint and he offered half of that. I wanted more details on how playing a painter would work. I agree its going to take at least a week with a very good painter working all day and night. So I am not sure how that would work. I also said if we pursue this option I will gladly film the process and final result. I am not out to "hurt" anyone. I am trying to offer a fair and unbiased review of a service i received.

The refund wont make up for the months of stress and gut wrenching disappointment.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:49:15


Post by: heartserenade


Why isn't a full refund possible?!?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:51:15


Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)


I'd call his bluff on flying out a painter.

Where would said painter stay? Would they come to your house and paint? What would they do while you are out at work? How long would the painter be there? Till it's done? Over a weekend? Sounds like a load of gak to me. Hell it would be cheaper to refund you then to do this option. It would be a logistical nightmare.

I'm sorry you are going through all this, but hey if it's the final nail in the coffin of BTP then at least some good will come of it.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 14:55:23


Post by: winterdyne


Dude, no. Looking at what you have, to bring that up to scratch is more than a few tweaks - it's basically a full repaint that's needed. Long, long job.




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 15:14:33


Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)


winterdyne wrote:
Dude, no. Looking at what you have, to bring that up to scratch is more than a few tweaks - it's basically a full repaint that's needed. Long, long job.




You're just saying that because you are a professional with ethics and a true desire to provide customers with product they paid you for.......


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 15:34:32


Post by: SBG


I, for one, will never use their services after hearing this. Wow.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 16:08:39


Post by: Chute82


Flying a painter out to you sounds to good to be true.. The price you payed per model is insane and them not picking out the small details on the models is just pure laziness. Figure out what the cost would be at a level 2 compared to the level 4/6 that you payed. Ask for that % of a refund.

Trick me once shame on you, trick me twice shame on me.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 16:13:47


Post by: OldSkoolGoff


 heartserenade wrote:
Why isn't a full refund possible?!?


Presumably because the guy has spent the money already.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 16:57:15


Post by: tenebre


 Chute82 wrote:
Flying a painter out to you sounds to good to be true.. The price you payed per model is insane and them not picking out the small details on the models is just pure laziness. Figure out what the cost would be at a level 2 compared to the level 4/6 that you payed. Ask for that % of a refund.

Trick me once shame on you, trick me twice shame on me.


He stands by all those models being at least a 3/5 so that was the refund he offered.

The painter flying out would be a great resolution providing he comes for 3 weeks. He said on the youtube channel that if i had sent these back they would all have been fixed already which worries me. It is IMPOSSIBLE to paint this many models that fast. (with any quality)

If i was rich I would hire another company to paint them as expected and them show a before and after so it will be even more evident.

As soon as he responds about the painter coming out with details I will post another video going over my original spec sheet and a comparisons between the images i sent and what was painted. Iron is NOT matte back.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 17:00:54


Post by: heartserenade


But on his end, how much would plane tickets, board and lodging, food, and labor pay of a painter would be for 3 weeks? Would that exceed how much he's willing to refund you?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 17:10:58


Post by: tenebre


 heartserenade wrote:
But on his end, how much would plane tickets, board and lodging, food, and labor pay of a painter would be for 3 weeks? Would that exceed how much he's willing to refund you?


no idea how much he pays the painters. His refund offer is too low as it will not allow a repaint. its 50% of what i got estimates for repaint. They had 3 chances to fix these issues over the past month so honestly their cost is no longer my concern. I should not have to tell a painted "Hey can you please paint the side of my cannon instead of leaving it primer black?". But even after i told them 3 times just that they still did not.

I don't trust sending the models to them again so the only way to "repair" the damage would be to have a painter under supervision. Keep in mind he offered this solution, and I inquired about the specifics so I am not sure what he had in mind yet.

I am waiting to post the follow up video so i can tell what he opted to do. But i will go over all the communication that was sent during this process.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 17:20:27


Post by: winterdyne


Do not accept the painter coming out. It's not worth the aggravation, and it won't fix the issue. I say this as a pro painter with a good few years experience- the task in hand is at least 8-10 weeks full time work.

This is all just blowing hot air. It's interesting to see exactly how outlandish this suggestion will become, but please don't think of it as an actual solution; it is not.

Edit; it is also likely to be a very bad experience for the painter.

Edit2: if you actually want this fixed (rather than pushing BTP to see how insane Shawn really is), drop a line to GMM or Garden Ninja, pay a reasonable deposit and reasonable amount for work and get a quality result back, you really have picked what is widely regarded as the worst established commission studio.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 17:29:06


Post by: heartserenade


winterdyne wrote:
Edit; it is also likely to be a very bad experience for the painter.


This is a really huge concern, as well. And a grumpy painter might make things worse for you because you have to deal with him/her (thus stressing you out) and it might affect the quality of their work. I sure as hell can't paint when I'm in a bad mood, and flying to another state and staying in a place you're not familiar with for weeks because someone didn't do their job right (and I doubt that the painter is gonna be paid well, I bet to cover for the whole operation he would be paid less than a full refund) would sure put anyone in an understandable bad mood.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 17:39:01


Post by: TheAuldGrump


In the words of Judge Wopner - Take Him To Court.

This is what small claims court is for.

Get others to join you.

He may not have started as a con man, but he has become one.

It looks like you can document what you were ordering, and it looks like you can document that what he sent you was not what you ordered.

And the terms of service that he has tried to push on you will work against him.

Treat him like you would any other fraudster that has scammed the better part of a thousand dollars out of you.

The Auld Grump


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 18:16:15


Post by: winterwind85


havent read the whole topic but an advise from me..
take him to court.
the overall money envolved is way to much to be shoot into the abyss.
you have clearly a contract with him.
for example.. you order a professional painter to paint your living room.
when seeing his work you notice he hasnt painted any corners, spilled paint on your carpet etc...
exactly this case has happened.
maybe its a special topic and you have to invest some money for a lawyer ( if you dont have an insurance convering this case) but in the end he has to pay your costs..
also maybe check his entry for his company, if he is paying taxes etc etc...


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 18:22:29


Post by: Quarterdime


Thinking about the whole flying the painter over thing...

Here's how I see this going: If the painter comes over you two will eventually reach a compromise and the painter will have to leave early before the entire army is complete, so then at the end of the day Shawn can say "After hearing he wasn't satisfied we took the liberty to fly a painter over free of charge and that still didn't work". Muddying the case to his benefit. The longer this drags through the mud the more attrition you'll be put through the more likely you are to just let them go.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 18:30:03


Post by: Bossk_Hogg


 Breotan wrote:
I don't know if it was technically a scam or not but it violated KS rules because it was basically using crowdfunding to purchase supplies so they could build/sell armies and not really a project in and of itself. They offered "credit" toward getting your own army painted in return. It really wasn't a good deal for the people pledging and it went down in flames rightly so.



Yeah, it was pretty friggin stupid. Their project was to paint armies. Except... they already paint armies. If you paid them money through kickstarter, you could have them paint you an army later. You know, like you could already do.

It was essentially a Ponzi scheme for them to use KS funds to pay for existing commissions, and hope they got something in later to pay for the armies the guys pledged for during the KS. But why would anyone who wanted their crap service not just go through their store like normal? It was clear they fronted a lot of the money themselves, as there was a massive spike, then a plateau. They got close, which means that they'd already dumped all their available funds into the "project", otherwise they could have backed themselves at the end to push it over the line so they would have received the remainder of the funds.

The guy who runs it is some conspiracy theorist wacko - I remember when he'd only accept paypal or gold, because government currency was just "fiat currency". Dumbass, what do you think that paypal transaction pays you in?

Sorry you got ripped off man.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 19:24:00


Post by: Yodhrin


 Quarterdime wrote:
Thinking about the whole flying the painter over thing...

Here's how I see this going: If the painter comes over you two will eventually reach a compromise and the painter will have to leave early before the entire army is complete, so then at the end of the day Shawn can say "After hearing he wasn't satisfied we took the liberty to fly a painter over free of charge and that still didn't work". Muddying the case to his benefit. The longer this drags through the mud the more attrition you'll be put through the more likely you are to just let them go.


This. It sounds very much like the painter offer is a poison pill, because if it isn't the bloke is clearly a bit mad - there's no way the costs associated with flying someone to a different part of the country, putting them up, and paying for their time would come to less than the partial refund you requested. Stick to your guns, and if they won't give you the "as if it were level 2" refund it's lawyerin' time.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 19:32:36


Post by: Red Corsair


@tenebre
Ask him for a full refund on service in exchange for the army.

-You will eat the cost of that army, but you will get the 8-9 grand back in service it sounds like you spent. Use it to rebuy your models and find a new service or paint it yourself.

-They have an army that is according to them a high standard that they "should" be able to sell at a profit. They still win.

In the end you will lose out, but I am sure there is no way of you walking away from this without a loss. Even small claims court will cost you more time and money.

Offer it to him and see what he says.

It puts his money where his mouth is. According to him and his review it is a stellar army so why wouldn't he do it?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 19:34:03


Post by: swampyturtle


My word. this video, that army.....

I have no words to say, that army deserved so much more better than that.

Like my friend "end" said, "if somebody sends you a forge world army to paint, you'd go all out on that gak"

Not this worthless paint job of a scam.

BTP painting really really dropped the ball on this one. Just wow.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 19:45:33


Post by: Peregrine


From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 19:48:55


Post by: hotsauceman1


No, Insult to those that use painting commisions, but this is why I stay clear of them and paint myself. I do not want to risk having my stuff taking.
I will say this, I love BTP dzc videos though


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 19:49:13


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 Peregrine wrote:
From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.
And in court that will be a millstone around their necks - making any charges of fraud much, much easier to press.

The Auld Grump - if they start drowning, then you should be willing to throw them an anchor.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 20:10:58


Post by: Breotan


Take the partial refund and call it done. It's probably the best offer you'll get.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 20:14:23


Post by: SBG


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.
And in court that will be a millstone around their necks - making any charges of fraud much, much easier to press.

The Auld Grump - if they start drowning, then you should be willing to throw them an anchor.


Wise words.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 20:23:46


Post by: jreilly89


 Red Corsair wrote:
@tenebre
Ask him for a full refund on service in exchange for the army.

-You will eat the cost of that army, but you will get the 8-9 grand back in service it sounds like you spent. Use it to rebuy your models and find a new service or paint it yourself.

-They have an army that is according to them a high standard that they "should" be able to sell at a profit. They still win.

In the end you will lose out, but I am sure there is no way of you walking away from this without a loss. Even small claims court will cost you more time and money.

Offer it to him and see what he says.

It puts his money where his mouth is. According to him and his review it is a stellar army so why wouldn't he do it?


This. Might be the best chance of getting the largest refund, other than what pitiful refund he offers


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/11 22:22:24


Post by: Azazelx


If you paid with credit card, go the visa chargeback.

If not, small claims court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
scumbags like this bank on people not wanting to be bothered to take it further. He'd have done nothing if you hadn't posted and put it on YouTube


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 00:20:41


Post by: plastictrees


 heartserenade wrote:
But on his end, how much would plane tickets, board and lodging, food, and labor pay of a painter would be for 3 weeks? Would that exceed how much he's willing to refund you?


A crack head on a bicycle can be anywhere in the US and painting in under 24 hours for about $20.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 00:33:56


Post by: SBG


Hide your kids, hide your wife.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 01:27:45


Post by: tenebre


 Breotan wrote:
Take the partial refund and call it done. It's probably the best offer you'll get.



its too small. Court is the better option. I am waiting to hear back on this painter flying in idea. i requested a 60% refund based on a quote from another studio to repair his work. I would be happy with that. But I cant accept a 20% refund. My stress alone is worth more than that.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 04:30:30


Post by: SBG


Personally, I'd be extremely leery of their proposal to fly in a painter. That's likely a trap as mentioned by a previous poster; allowing them to say that you were the unreasonable one when their work still got flubbed.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 04:36:08


Post by: heartserenade


And with their current lack of professionalism so far, do you really think that it would be possible for them to implement that solution (given its logistical complexity) without problems?

I highly doubt it'll go well. Insisting on a refund is the way to go, at least it's simple.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 04:39:44


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Yeah I'd try and steer clear of the whole idea of them flying out a painter to you. That just sounds like a giant hornets nest in every way

I'd stick to getting them to refund you, or as an earlier poster suggested, if they think their paint job is fine, get them to refund you the money and you give them back the models and they call sell them to someone else, allowing you to buy a new set of models and get someone else to do the work for you.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 05:10:24


Post by: twinner


Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 05:44:12


Post by: jah-joshua


that sucks, twinner...
i get a lot of flack for my prices being high, and these guys are straight up taking the piss...
i know i probably would have quoted $350 for a Flyrant like you described, but you would have gotten exactly what you wanted...
it bums me out when people give me a hassle about my prices, but i don't think anyone can fault my conversions and paintjobs...
at least now i have a good frame of reference to use when people talk smack...

@tenebre: sorry you are going through such a hassle...
stories like this make me so glad i turned down their job offer ten years ago...
it's been a good ten years of freelance work instead...

i've never been impressed by anything BTP has done, and even years ago i was hearing horror stories about lots of parts of minis that don't show being left unpainted...
while i don't think $17 is a lot for a rank and file mini, you should at least get the quality you asked for, and have your desires met with the paint scheme...

Shawn has always struck me as a guy who is two steps away from being a cult leader...
creepy dude, even though he is friendly and enthusiastic in the videos, something just gave a wierd vibe about him from the beginning...

hopefully these stories will save people a lot of hassle in the future...
these guys just need to give it up, if they can't bring the quality up, and leave commission painting to the people who have a passion for bringing the client's vision to life....
that's the whole point of the job, as far as i'm concerned...

cheers
jah


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 05:49:32


Post by: SBG


That... is not 'converted'. The tail is mildly tweaked. And the painting is unacceptable for $130. At first glance there's unpainted bits (the stranglethorn cannon in particular) and the terminator looks straight out of the box.

Ugh. Sorry to hear your tale of woe, twinner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
twinner wrote:
Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 06:42:06


Post by: Breotan


twinner wrote:
Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k
Looks like the same drybrush over black primer action. Is that what happened or was there any base coat used on the model?



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 11:55:09


Post by: tenebre


twinner wrote:
Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k


The conversion budget is a huge problem. I actually did not get SOME of the conversions i asked for. (I did most of the converting, i did not make the blunderbusses)
Sorry this happened to someone else. If you were in thee states i would start a class action with you. The best we can do is make sure this doesnt happen to anyone else.
There are good companies out there and they should not suffer because of a bad one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:
@tenebre
Ask him for a full refund on service in exchange for the army.



But i did a lot of work finding OOP models and converting them, not to mention the $2k i paid FW. so that deal leaves me out time and money and gives him an army to sell for a profit. That just doesnt seem right.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 19:36:24


Post by: spacewolf407


Another reason why I prefer to paint my own models. I get to pick out all the details that I want and go back and touch up the models as much as I want. There are times where I feel that painting is too time consuming and a pain to do, but once I see a completely finished model that I myself painted, I feel a great sense of accomplishment.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 20:03:28


Post by: quickfuze


Honestly small claims court is about $250 to file and special service fees. Even if you win and he doesnt pay, you can put a lien against his business and he wont ever be able to get a loan or other such business practices without satisfying the lien first.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 20:23:53


Post by: Swastakowey


There should be consumer laws for this. The difficulty is the time and money it takes to get your money if they put up a fight.

But if they fail to abide by the service they offered, they MUST ensure they offer compensation or refund you. It doesnt matter that they put "no refunds" they still have to do it. I cant just put no refund on all items in my store. It doesnt work like that. Very few items are allowed to have no refund and those are things such as underwear and so on.

So if I were you, I would be compiling ALL the emails exchanged (emails are important for this) and printing them out, sorting them in order and taking photos.

First get the emails that contain what you asked for. Have 2 copies, write notes all over one version, and have one clean one. Take photos of the units and put them with what you asked for. Write what is missing. This includes things like "level 6" and so on. Have every detail fleshed out and compared to the final product.

Then get all the emails that have something to do with the time it took, and the communication. On their site it will say they communicate as the job goes by. So print that and compare that to the emails you had that showed progress and so on. Write how long it took and how long was quoted.

Get every single promise, initial agreement and contact and compare it with the final product in picture.

Then go see a legal adviser or take it to court or whatever. Have everything prepared BEFORE you go in. Dates, emails, photos, links and costs etc.

If what you are telling us is true and once you have all this info handy dont talk to the guy again. The more you talk the more crap you get into to. He has given you his options and you arent happy with them. Plus I dont think they fill in their legal obligations but I could be wrong (not sure what your laws are etc). So fight them.

It will cost them more than it will cost you at the end of the day. They have wages that need to be paid, company time will be used and if they lose then all the time spent on the project (however much) is also lost. If they are smart they wont let it happen again because situations like this will hurt their reputation and their coffers.

I think so anyway.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 23:16:57


Post by: tenebre


 Swastakowey wrote:
There should be consumer laws for this. The difficulty is the time and money it takes to get your money if they put up a fight.

But if they fail to abide by the service they offered, they MUST ensure they offer compensation or refund you. It doesnt matter that they put "no refunds" they still have to do it. I cant just put no refund on all items in my store. It doesnt work like that. Very few items are allowed to have no refund and those are things such as underwear and so on.

So if I were you, I would be compiling ALL the emails exchanged (emails are important for this) and printing them out, sorting them in order and taking photos.

First get the emails that contain what you asked for. Have 2 copies, write notes all over one version, and have one clean one. Take photos of the units and put them with what you asked for. Write what is missing. This includes things like "level 6" and so on. Have every detail fleshed out and compared to the final product.

Then get all the emails that have something to do with the time it took, and the communication. On their site it will say they communicate as the job goes by. So print that and compare that to the emails you had that showed progress and so on. Write how long it took and how long was quoted.

Get every single promise, initial agreement and contact and compare it with the final product in picture.

Then go see a legal adviser or take it to court or whatever. Have everything prepared BEFORE you go in. Dates, emails, photos, links and costs etc.

If what you are telling us is true and once you have all this info handy dont talk to the guy again. The more you talk the more crap you get into to. He has given you his options and you arent happy with them. Plus I dont think they fill in their legal obligations but I could be wrong (not sure what your laws are etc). So fight them.

It will cost them more than it will cost you at the end of the day. They have wages that need to be paid, company time will be used and if they lose then all the time spent on the project (however much) is also lost. If they are smart they wont let it happen again because situations like this will hurt their reputation and their coffers.

I think so anyway.



All is done. I play WH with 2 lawyers actually. I recorded a video today going over the contract line by line. Once he responds to criticisms of his offer and I make a final decision I will post the result. I am trying to avoid internet arguing and want to simply show facts and results not conjecture and grand standing.
I have every email exchange and when i was going through it, the result is far worse than i ever let on in the review.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 23:32:22


Post by: Swastakowey


Awesome dude, well im glad you are doing that.

Lets hope they take the easy way then.

Good luck.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/12 23:42:26


Post by: OldSkoolGoff


over/under on BTP disappearing mysteriously before this guy gets him money back? \

Portions redacted; be polite. --Janthkin


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/13 00:01:18


Post by: Peregrine


 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
over/under on BTP disappearing mysteriously before this guy gets him money back?


Not too likely IMO. It's a big financial loss, but not a fatal one. BTP can pay off the OP's demands and people will continue to fall for their scam.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/13 00:11:05


Post by: curran12


Yeah. It might shake up the company a good deal, but not so much to require a vanishing act.

Plus, he has got himself into a position where he can't really disappear. Way too much invested into it in terms of property and people.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/13 03:09:09


Post by: warboss


I was wondering why they suddenly put up a video about the behind the scenes painting process talking about how artists communicate with customers and how they don't have a backlog with their "to do" shelf being so empty. I was considering using them for my remaining 40k minis that I have no interest in painting due to a lack of interest in GW and their game and corporate changes but there is no way in hell I'd send them a squad of all characters so that they can just paint them quick with an airbrush and some drybrushing.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/13 03:44:52


Post by: Forar


 Peregrine wrote:
From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.


Man, I love Star Trek as much as any nerd with a Facebook profile pic of him and Patrick Stewart, but when one is quoting the Ferengi in business, you've gone to a strange and not positive place.

That said, we know he doesn't follow the Rules of Acquisition. There was a fe-male (if you've seen the episode in question, this is a killer reference) in one of their vids who was fully clothed.

... the Ferengi don't allow their women to be clothed and have an odd way of pronouncing female, I'll get my coat and see myself out.

Anyway, these folks did the Robotech Tactics figures up for Palladium Books when they went to Gencon this year. It got some scorn and mockery, but I didn't quite grasp what the big deal was.

Now I do.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/13 11:29:14


Post by: tenebre


 warboss wrote:
I was wondering why they suddenly put up a video about the behind the scenes painting process talking about how artists communicate with customers and how they don't have a backlog with their "to do" shelf being so empty. I was considering using them for my remaining 40k minis that I have no interest in painting due to a lack of interest in GW and their game and corporate changes but there is no way in hell I'd send them a squad of all characters so that they can just paint them quick with an airbrush and some drybrushing.


wow I need to watch that. I asked for the artist to call me before they start and was promised they would. I was NEVER allowed to speak to any artist. When i post the video of his response you will see even more detail some of their practices.
I request WiP pictures for 7 weeks straight and was told "later this week" every time. I saw the army the same day as the rest of the internet did for the first time.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:10:37


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Forar wrote:

Anyway, these folks did the Robotech Tactics figures up for Palladium Books when they went to Gencon this year. It got some scorn and mockery, but I didn't quite grasp what the big deal was.
Now I do.


I have also read a poor review of the Robotech gencon displays, didn't know it was BTP!

Are they referring to these?



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:13:32


Post by: winterdyne


Yep. The pieces they used for actual demo games were painted by volunteer fanboys, but those in the picture are 'display quality'.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:16:49


Post by: Acephale


Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:18:06


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


winterdyne wrote:
Yep. The pieces they used for actual demo games were painted by volunteer fanboys, but those in the picture are 'display quality'.


Ummmmmm, yeeesh...


If I was Palladium, I'd be furious about that, this does not show their minis in a favorable light at all and that affects their sales when you're taking them to show off at one of the largest cons on earth.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:35:28


Post by: Howard A Treesong


 Acephale wrote:
Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?


Hasn't Warseer done similar before? They seen a bit quick to run from legal threats. There's no libel here, the thread comments on a product/service review put on YouTube. BTP may not like it, but they'll have to address the issues more effectively.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:47:22


Post by: tenebre


I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:48:40


Post by: Acephale


 Howard A Treesong wrote:
 Acephale wrote:
Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?


Hasn't Warseer done similar before? They seen a bit quick to run from legal threats. There's no libel here, the thread comments on a product/service review put on YouTube. BTP may not like it, but they'll have to address the issues more effectively.


Yeah, the OP has been very civil about it imo and the fact that some posters in the thread used the words "scam" or "fraud" is certainly not enough to close it down. If Warseer chickened out after being threatened by BTP it's a real shame - things like this need to get out in the open so that potential customers can make informed decisions. BTP's public image just took another nosedive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tenebre wrote:
I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.


So did Warseer remove your thread?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:51:07


Post by: Davylove21


I've just started watching this video but, I can't shake it, isn't this guy featured in Louis Theroux's weird weekends?

Dead ringer for him if not!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:54:25


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


tenebre wrote:
I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.
If I were you, I'd offer that they give you a full refund and then you'll pull the YT videos and forum posts.

Or you could just offer that whatever they do to fix it, you'll amend the video (change the description or add annotation) and forum posts (edit the first post) to reflect what they did to rectify the problem.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 11:58:36


Post by: tenebre


 Acephale wrote:
Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?


Yes,
I have received a few "threats" from random accounts on YT and WS about BTP might sue me.

While i can sue them and have already sought legal action, they have no case against me. I posted a product review. Nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
tenebre wrote:
I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.
If I were you, I'd offer that they give you a full refund and then you'll pull the YT videos and forum posts.

Or you could just offer that whatever they do to fix it, you'll amend the video (change the description or add annotation) and forum posts (edit the first post) to reflect what they did to rectify the problem.


I always offered to gladly post a video with their resolution and I still will. The problem is all his resolutions came with the caveat of immediate "repair" in other words removal of everything. This is unethical.
I have no problem telling the truth but the have yet to rectify anything. So far they have spent time finding ways to remove my review instead of just working with me.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 12:19:20


Post by: CptJake


So far they have spent time finding ways to remove my review instead of just working with me.


Unfortunately for you, from their standpoint it may make a lot of sense to do this. Any working with you is going to take time (if they were to repaint) or cash (to refund) and cash flow is likely an issue with a company using this business model. They may not have available liquid funds to use for a big refund. Any time involved is time in which your review and forum topics like this one are still up and active which is undoubtedly costing them new business which further exacerbates cash flow problems.

Getting rid of your review (and squelching associated social media/forum topics) they feel are hurting/slowing business is going to be a priority for them.




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 13:12:12


Post by: Bora77


I watched your video twice and I feel for you tenebre.
I hope you will get a minimum 50% refund and/or win a court case!

It is a sad story about commissioning services and the quality they deliver really...

Years back I evaluated to have things done at BTP, since they were the first studio to use youtube successfully to promote themselves.

Back in those times I decided to not take that route, because I was worried about the quality delivered and the communication (time difference Germany/US) and seriously didn't trust them.

I remember this one overenthusiastic guy, jumping around/moderating the videos... he might appeal to some, but to me he was annoying.

One should be realistic about expectations towards the quality and look at what they charge. If you pay 17 USD (~14 EUR) for getting a standard mini painted I say thats not even close to enough to cover the manpower needed to achieve the highest display expectations!

I am a slow painter, maybe I lack the routine, but I know I need hours to pick out details, paint gems, shadings, highlights, face details etc... so I doubt even a PRO could paint a mini better than I do in less than 3 hours.

If BTP was no business but a single person doing comissions, he might cover his costs, but even then its less than 5 EUR brutoo per hour of work!

Nobody works for this money here in Germany... decent work for this amount of money is maybe only possible in Eastern Europe, but surely not the US!

I recently checked German paint services and their quality is horrible, even the highest class! Luckily I visited them personally to see what they do... The quality is surely OK for tabletop standard, but if they label the highest quality "showcase or pro painted" it is just silly.

Then I compared with a polish service (denofimagination.com) and they are very nice people, BUT i saw my buddies army, painted there. He is very happy, but I was shocked when he told me what he paid for the quality received... some awesome freehands mixed with some solid tabletop standard...

tl;dr you will never get showcase/golden demon standard with custom bases and modifications from commissions without paying 5-10 hours work time per model.

at least that is my experience and this is why i do it myself :-)


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 13:22:11


Post by: Sining


I feel like them asking for the video to be taken down is kind of dishonest. The critique is valid and honest, and frankly, you can't whitewash that. Instead, you should be reaching in all earnestness so that you can get the original guy to post that everything was resolved to his satisfaction instead of trying to censor everything. But with this kind of attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried using C&D letters to try and get you to take down the video


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 13:22:18


Post by: Bora77


PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 14:23:19


Post by: M0ff3l


These models do definately not look level 4.

I would just ask them to refund me the difference between these level 2/3 models and the level 4-6 you paid for.

Also you sigh after every sentence and it is really annoying to watch, especially if you do it 46 fething minutes long.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 14:27:24


Post by: Ouze


 Breotan wrote:
Take the partial refund and call it done. It's probably the best offer you'll get.



I think I agree, if you're looking for a refund.

Your choices are A.) Trying to get a refund from your payment provider, B.) Suing, C.) Going to small claims, or D.) trying to leverage public opinion into a full refund.

A.) This is either the best option or the worst option. If you paid with a credit card, you can likely pressure them for a chargeback even if it's outside their normal claim window if you explain the circumstances. On the other hand, if it was Paypal, even if the facts are 100% on your side you're probably going to get boned and since the facts are in dispute, your chances of prevailing are... iffy.

B.) Suing is probably a bad idea. You probably will spend substantially more than the army cost to litigate, and you run the risk of hey, guess what, someone in his family is an out-of-work lawyer who will work for free, so now you're in it forever! Even if you win it's a Games Workshop style Pyrrhic victory.

C.) Small claims is a great option depending on what you're out. Was it $900? If so, this would work, but someone else said $6 or 7 grand? This is probably well above the small claims cap. Additionally, there is a lot of hassle involved with small claims, and a lot of time spent, and you're assuming you will win. The facts seem cut and dried to you but "pro-painted" is a pretty subjective concept even for the initiated, let along whoever might be judging your case.

D.) Leveraging public opinion - this is really the last resort and I think it won't work here. At this point the barn door is open and the horses are gone. They have no reason not to stand firm on what they already offered and just give non-statements to the effect of they made multiple fair offers to resolve the complaint but they can't speak any more to the confidential details of a client's account.


If you want the least headache, you should just take the offered partial refund.


The thing I don't get about this is - they have a video up showing their painting levels:




And they sort of all look pretty terrible. I mean, what you got seems pretty good relative to what they claim to sell. Even the highest levels offered aren't particularly great to my eye.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 14:52:26


Post by: Chute82


Bora77 wrote:
PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.


He says in the video that the painting cost 4x what he paid for the army.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 14:52:36


Post by: Flippa


 M0ff3l wrote:
These models do definately not look level 4.

I would just ask them to refund me the difference between these level 2/3 models and the level 4-6 you paid for.

Also you sigh after every sentence and it is really annoying to watch, especially if you do it 46 fething minutes long.


Seriously? You can bet your bottom $ I would be sighing too if I'd spent a few K$ on that. I've watched the vid a couple of times now and even showed it to gamer friends, who are agreed, it is such a waste to see such fantastic models painted that way.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 15:00:28


Post by: Bora77


 Flippa wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
These models do definately not look level 4.

I would just ask them to refund me the difference between these level 2/3 models and the level 4-6 you paid for.

Also you sigh after every sentence and it is really annoying to watch, especially if you do it 46 fething minutes long.


Seriously? You can bet your bottom $ I would be sighing too if I'd spent a few K$ on that. I've watched the vid a couple of times now and even showed it to gamer friends, who are agreed, it is such a waste to see such fantastic models painted that way.


Sorry, I have no clue how much he paid for the army itself... hence the question.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 15:46:54


Post by: Flippa


 Chute82 wrote:
Bora77 wrote:
PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.


He says in the video that the painting cost 4x what he paid for the army.


TY Chute82 4x the cost Bora77, I haven't been on the FW website to work it out exactly but it's deffo a few K$


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 15:49:29


Post by: warboss


About the only good thing I see about the Paypal dispute period being changed to 6 month is the ability to automatically apply to get your money back if it doesn't arrive as scheduled or is SNAD. With an established business like this, they likely can't afford to just close down their paypal payment like new swap shop or ebay scammers do so you can put a hold on your money and actually likely have a chance to get it back if things go south.

I wonder if they'll stop taking paypal for that reason now.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 16:26:25


Post by: swampyturtle


He said he paid 2k for the army and 4x times the army cost for painting.



Edited: I guess my math is still bad as it was in High School


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 16:38:30


Post by: CptJake


 swampyturtle wrote:
He said he paid 2k for the army and 4x times the army cost for painting.

Math says that's 8k total spent on this fiasco


2k+(4 x 2k) =/= 8k....




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 16:48:38


Post by: swampyturtle


 CptJake wrote:
 swampyturtle wrote:
He said he paid 2k for the army and 4x times the army cost for painting.

Math says that's 8k total spent on this fiasco


2k+(4 x 2k) =/= 8k....




10k then.

This is why i am not a math person.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 17:14:54


Post by: heartserenade


 Ouze wrote:
And they sort of all look pretty terrible. I mean, what you got seems pretty good relative to what they claim to sell. Even the highest levels offered aren't particularly great to my eye.



It seems to look very hit or miss for me. The level 6's have some parts good, but some parts are just plain or simpley meh. Level 5's look like high level tabletop quality at best, and tabletop quality at worst.

The basing is the worst part. All of it is lackluster.

Really, you can't even begin to compare them with what other studios produce. I think winterdyne's tabletop quality is better than their level 5 or 6.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:08:35


Post by: tenebre


Bora77 wrote:
PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.


the estimates presented by many others are close

I paid for the models myself separately and sent them. So that I paid for BT service only

I dont say how much because i was horrifically embarrassed at what i paid for what I got.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:20:43


Post by: Ouze


Why don't you just say how much it was? I mean, what they charged for what they delivered is salient, and their failure to deliver doesn't really reflect on you.

There's not any kind of NDA or anything is there?



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:21:21


Post by: curran12


It's not really our business, though, is it?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:31:51


Post by: Lt. Coldfire


My guess is he paid $8,600.00 + Shawn's special 2% rush fee = $8,772.00.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:35:38


Post by: tenebre


 Ouze wrote:
Why don't you just say how much it was? I mean, what they charged for what they delivered is salient, and their failure to deliver doesn't really reflect on you.

There's not any kind of NDA or anything is there?


Coldfire is close a little high but close.

I dont like to discuss the money because then i get private messages attacking me for being so stupid to pay that much. (I have already received such messages)

That amount seemed reasonable for the level of army I was requesting.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:46:32


Post by: Lt. Coldfire


So, minus the rush fee then. Lucky break.

That's obviously pretty steep, but if you would have gotten what you wanted then this would have been an army for the ages.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:49:39


Post by: Ouze


 curran12 wrote:
It's not really our business, though, is it?


It becomes salient in terms of advice. If he paid $900, no one would suggest litigation, if he paid $9,000, we can't suggest small claims court. Also, it's a lot easier to say "cut your losses" if he's out a couple of hundred dollars vs a couple of thousand dollars.

Finally, it seems one of the OP's goals is to establish BTP doesn't offer good value, and that kind of goes hand and hand with that - but I ask for the former reason.

I would definitely alert a mod about any rude messages OP got, that is ridiculous.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:51:29


Post by: winterdyne


I charge (successfuly, satisfactorily) between £175 and £250 for a 10 man space marine squad, to high end tabletop standard.

People really don't get how much work is involved in decent commission painting. It's a laborious process, and (per hour) the money is not good.

I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army. If you have a full inventory, it might be fun for me to give a ball park of what I'd charge and an approximate, high end tabletop turnaround. My ball park figures are (after a few years in the game) getting pretty accurate for the most part.

I do think you didn't get what you were promised - not even close. Basic work should be sold as basic work. High end work as high end. All this talk of 'levels' and 'passes' is frankly a load of bollocks, and is deliberately confusing. Think about the job, quote for the job. If you get it wrong, next time adjust your quote. That's how the game works.

Edit: I don't know about the US, but in the UK small claims courts can rule on matters up to £100k.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:52:27


Post by: Jackal


For what should have been a high level commission that price seems fine to be honest.

For the quality of the work though, that is another matter altogether..
It seems like someone ran through the basic details, hit it with a drybrush then hit it with the airbrush to finish them off.

Not only is the painting sloppy, the communication was even worse.
Now, when a companies reputation is built from their work, you would think service to the customer is the top priority.

I just hope they send you some form of apology for this. (preferably in a $$$ value)


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:54:55


Post by: winterdyne


 Jackal wrote:
For what should have been a high level commission that price seems fine to be honest.

For the quality of the work though, that is another matter altogether..


No. It's a huge job. Eyeballing it, I'd guess around double ($16k) with almost a year turnaround, full time work to what I call 'high end tabletop'. (Most GW cabinet / WD display armies, not 'EM single piece work).



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:55:50


Post by: carmachu


winterdyne wrote:
Sucks, dude. BTP don't have a good rep, why'd you use them?


When did blue table paint stop having a good rep? I'd have used them for years and no problems. Now having said that I havent used them in the last 3 years at least.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 18:57:58


Post by: Eilif


Just watched the video.

Tenbre,
You were way to easy on them. I heard "It's nice but" or "It looks cool, but…" so many times I could almost lipsync along with you. Just come out and say what we all see, that the models are so far below the level of what was paid for that it's either gross negligence, incompetence, dishonesty or some combination thereof. Hope you get at least a refund for these models since none of them seem to be at the level you paid for.

Also, there's no reason it had to be 46 minutes long, but most you-tube hobbyist gaming videos are far longer than necessary, so it's just running with the pack.

Above all, thanks also for warning the community. You've provided a very valuable service. I've heard rumblings about these guys for quite a while, but your video shows that they are close (if not completely over) the line of scamming.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 19:06:38


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


After watching their videos, it looks like you got a level 2 for the most part, and a 3 on some others (like the vehicles). You might have actually accidentally gotten a level 4 job on the sexy slave girls or whatever.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 19:08:24


Post by: kb305


winterdyne wrote:
I charge (successfuly, satisfactorily) between £175 and £250 for a 10 man space marine squad, to high end tabletop standard.

People really don't get how much work is involved in decent commission painting. It's a laborious process, and (per hour) the money is not good.

I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army. If you have a full inventory, it might be fun for me to give a ball park of what I'd charge and an approximate, high end tabletop turnaround. My ball park figures are (after a few years in the game) getting pretty accurate for the most part.

I do think you didn't get what you were promised - not even close. Basic work should be sold as basic work. High end work as high end. All this talk of 'levels' and 'passes' is frankly a load of bollocks, and is deliberately confusing. Think about the job, quote for the job. If you get it wrong, next time adjust your quote. That's how the game works.

Edit: I don't know about the US, but in the UK small claims courts can rule on matters up to £100k.



Doesnt help people's perception when some random tit always comes in saying that he won golden demon after speed painting his entry in 20 minutes and other such BS claims. Many people seem to lie to themselves and others about how long it takes to paint things. (GMM studio and a few others not withstanding, Brandon is insanely fast)


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 19:28:58


Post by: winterdyne


carmachu wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
Sucks, dude. BTP don't have a good rep, why'd you use them?


When did blue table paint stop having a good rep? I'd have used them for years and no problems. Now having said that I havent used them in the last 3 years at least.


They were having questionable reports about quality when I went full time which was about 4 or 5 years ago. At that point I actually was referring people to them that wanted lower budget work doing.

After that, further 'not quite as good as they say, but OK for the money' kept creeping in, with the occasional report of poor communication - understandable as the number of projects increases. I started to get clients asking for remedial work (which I don't do).

The issue of them offering high end work without being able to follow through has continued to grow - Shawn is extremely (and to me annoyingly) gushing about the work he presents - which if the work was better would be great!

But this in-your-face sales banter now leads to a false representation in the client's eyes - they listen and think they'll get something in the high-end-tabletop / display capable niche* like GMM, Garden Ninja, Myself at a fraction of the cost or at much lower wait.

This simply can't happen; but clients don't tend to see it. If it takes a skilled painter 3 hours to paint a model, they're going to want around £25 to paint it, at UK minimum wage, including a little bit for materials.This is the raw, bottom line truth of it.
A service is a service to make money; there are few that do it purely for the love of it - the demands of rent, food, survival, family all add up. I harp on this line all the time, but very few people (except the commission painters who learn it at the sharp end) seem to take it on board.

Bluntly, for a client: Expect to pay a living wage for the country your service is in.
Expect the service to be able to tell you roughly how many hours they think the job will take (averaging down to a per-model rate on units). If it seems stupid, chances are it is.
Check that the quote matches the expected working time. If it's very low in comparison, expect problems. If it's very high, think about why - is it high standard work? Is the scheme difficult? Did you ask for conversions or parts to be bought? Is there a shedload of brass etch to buy?

Anyway, back to the question - BTP's reputation as I've heard of them now is as pretty much a bog-standard service, being over (zealously) sold, with poor communications, confusing pricing structure and delusions of better quality than they actually produce.

They did at one point have some very good painters working for them; but in a field like this that doesn't last long unless appropriate prices are being charged for appropriate level work (to the artist as well as the client). They weren't.

*: I hope the painters I've named don't mind me labelling them as such, and I hope I don't seem arrogant to include myself in their company; both are extremely talented (Brandon, I hate you ;p) established services who I've heard nothing bad about.. There are of course also many other painters in this niche, but these two spring to mind first when I think of the 'high end tabletop' concept. Awaken Realms, YourWellPaintedArmy are both hot incoming services who look to be shaping up very well indeed.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 19:53:11


Post by: techsoldaten


I know several people who have done commissions with BTP and come away with models that were expensive and underwhelming.

Kudos to the op for restraint and reason. These concerns make sense and are things that are valuable to the community.

One question I have for the OP is, given there was no bulk discount, why spend the money to do the entire army all at once? Why not commission a single unit first so you can understand the services?






My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 19:57:29


Post by: Eilif


Winterdyne, you raise some good issues. That's the kind of in formation all potential buyers should know. However they really are beside the point as relates to the OP's problem.

Only germane point is this:

BTP agreed to a price for a certain level of product. They have their money, but the customer did not receive a corresponding product.

That said, I do agree about BTP's reputation. There's plenty of folks singing their praises, but if you search around there's enough reports of folks paying more and getting less to steer clear of them.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 21:18:51


Post by: Quarterdime


The video said at level 5 there will be "absolutely no slops".

I can attest to that being false from a level 5 hero that they painted, if you didn't notice that orc's eye slopped onto his cheek as he was saying it. I know this is an aside to the current discussion but I just had to point that out...


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 21:37:23


Post by: winterdyne


On a professionally done paintjob there shouldn't be any 'slops' anyway. A detail should either be painted, or not (and if not, the rule of 'if it's not important, paint it black' goes a long way). A highlight should be applied, or not.

Flaws should be minimal (perhaps a wash pool if it doesn't detract from the finish, maybe rougher transitions on blends/gradients) and in general a factor of the budget - faster methods are required to hit lower budget jobs. This does not give carte blanche to 'paint outside the lines' as it were.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 22:35:04


Post by: carmachu


winterdyne wrote:


They were having questionable reports about quality when I went full time which was about 4 or 5 years ago. At that point I actually was referring people to them that wanted lower budget work doing.

After that, further 'not quite as good as they say, but OK for the money' kept creeping in, with the occasional report of poor communication - understandable as the number of projects increases. I started to get clients asking for remedial work (which I don't do).


Fair enough. Sounds about slightly after I stopped playing with painted models or playing regularly. I always got table top quality(which is all I ever ordered).


But this in-your-face sales banter now leads to a false representation in the client's eyes - they listen and think they'll get something in the high-end-tabletop / display capable niche* like GMM, Garden Ninja, Myself at a fraction of the cost or at much lower wait.


Who is GMM?


They did at one point have some very good painters working for them; but in a field like this that doesn't last long unless appropriate prices are being charged for appropriate level work (to the artist as well as the client). They weren't.


Oh I know they did. I know and am friends with one of those good painters. but she hasnt painted for them in more then a few years. No idea if it was fall out or just that she's moved on to other things she wanted to do. Pretty sure its the later.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 23:09:37


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.
The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.

The quality of these is more if I asked some kid at my local club who is looking to make some money in order to buy more plastic crack to paint me some models when I know they won't come out awesome but I don't have the time to do them myself. It's not even in the realm of what I expect professional painters to do.

It looks like there's ~120 infantry models, 5 or so war machines, maybe ~10 small monsters/cav sized models and half a dozen larger monsters. If I try and imagine what the time/effort would be, I'd say maybe the equivalent of 200 infantry sized models? So about $40 per infantry model averaged over the army? At that price you'd expect, what, around 3 hours per model from a mildly skilled painter and maybe 4 from a reasonably unskilled painter? (trying to think US prices where the minimum wage is much lower than it is here ).

So at 3-4 hours per model... yeah, I think you overpaid a bit. The bigger problem to me is that it's a HUGE investment for the army, around $10000 Given the investment and the advertised quality from BTP, I think you have the right to feel cheated on that and expect some recompense. If it were at the start of the project and the OP was asking for advice, sure, I'd tell them they should just pay a bit more and get them painted elsewhere.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/14 23:21:24


Post by: -Loki-


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.
The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.


Also - that's your pricing. Not BTPs. If they're charging for showcase quality what you'd charge for tabletop quality, that's simply them charging less. It doesn't lower the expected delivered quality.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 00:04:12


Post by: tenebre


So here is my last video on BTP. I wanted to address some of the many questions I have seen as well as present all the facts. Sorry its long but I added some skip ahead links. I go over the initial contract as well as the un-edited response from BTP
http://youtu.be/3Po381lu1ds




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 00:06:50


Post by: Deadawake1347


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.
The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.

The quality of these is more if I asked some kid at my local club who is looking to make some money in order to buy more plastic crack to paint me some models when I know they won't come out awesome but I don't have the time to do them myself. It's not even in the realm of what I expect professional painters to do.

It looks like there's ~120 infantry models, 5 or so war machines, maybe ~10 small monsters/cav sized models and half a dozen larger monsters. If I try and imagine what the time/effort would be, I'd say maybe the equivalent of 200 infantry sized models? So about $40 per infantry model averaged over the army? At that price you'd expect, what, around 3 hours per model from a mildly skilled painter and maybe 4 from a reasonably unskilled painter? (trying to think US prices where the minimum wage is much lower than it is here ).

So at 3-4 hours per model... yeah, I think you overpaid a bit. The bigger problem to me is that it's a HUGE investment for the army, around $10000 Given the investment and the advertised quality from BTP, I think you have the right to feel cheated on that and expect some recompense. If it were at the start of the project and the OP was asking for advice, sure, I'd tell them they should just pay a bit more and get them painted elsewhere.


Well, minimum wage varies from state to state, but in Florida it's $7.93 an hour. If you want to use $40 per model, that would turn out to be just a few minutes over five hours per model at Florida's minimum wage. Even from a brand new, hideously unskilled painter I'd expect at least an attempt to paint up some of the details if you gave them five hours on a model.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 01:32:24


Post by: Lockark


These responses from BTP are ridiculous.

Every time anything about Shawn's perceptions of the world come to light, they are mind blowing. And not for the reasons Shawn thinks they are.....


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 03:30:43


Post by: ClockworkChaos


I watched all of that video and that hurt to hear their response. The politest term I can think of using in this context is they seem to have a bad case of "selective hearing" and "attention blindness". I hope things work out for you in the end. The review was fair and actually in their favour considering the quality they provided. Now they are just back-tracking what they said. I am glad stuff is becoming more public about things like theses so people can get a fair and well rounded image of things.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 03:53:36


Post by: Physh


BTP isnt what it presents itself to be for a while. From what I gather from the studio updates, just having it said to be painted by an artist is probably false and was painted by a group of them. 99% of the large projects get worked on by more than 1 person. A lot of the time you see employees relaxing, playing a video game, or working on their personal stuff for them or fellow employee. I've seen a few BTP armies that get played at local cons and they don't look like money well spent. Much of the stuff they bring to adepticon isn't that great, and want an arm and a leg for it. A few of the artist that have left are the ones that put out quality work and begs to wonder why they left. I have a friend that commissioned some of his FW eldar, and found that at the lvl4/5 mark its subjective to paint the bottoms of vehicles and do some eyes vs others.

Haven't watched the latest video, but best thing I can say is just get a refund somehow.

In addition to this, I remember a good chunk of years ago say 5, that he received a Armorcast Phantom Titan in what was to be a trade for terrain. He literally flipped and sold the titan(after it was painted w/ an army to match IIRC) before the client that traded it got the terrain. Upon getting the terrain it was a mockery of what was agreed upon and went public with people able to see the Face on Pringle cans through paint and Tide bottles just painted over with no additional work to transform it at all.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 04:29:15


Post by: Eilif


Anyone want to post a bit about BTP's response for those who don't want to click through the video?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 05:46:57


Post by: SuperHappyTime


 Eilif wrote:
Anyone want to post a bit about BTP's response for those who don't want to click through the video?


Really, you should just watch the video. I think tenebre probably said verbatim what was sent to him by BTP (or at least I hope he did, because if he didn't he should probably expect a lawsuit).

IMO on the issue (slightly biased, knowing only tenebre's side of the story), if there was a college class on Customer Service 101, this is a classic case of failure. To a point: Customer Service is the art of either making customers happy and losing money, or making money but getting your ******* torn open in public (i.e. a Public Relations disaster).

If from what I gather from several of BTP's earlier responses, the original artist clearly hadn't been working on the project (at least not to quality) and then tried to steal the figures. If this was the case, the quick customer service fix would be a 10-20% discount to the client (for being late), a note to the client regarding the situation, and the eventual delivery of the project at desired quality (albeit late).

Instead, someone covered the issue up and hoped the work would be glossed over by a dumber client (based on the first video, tenebre is a legit art critic, thus problems got caught)

tenebre,
I'm sorry you lost your money and may never get it back. I hope you never have to deal with a customer service issue like this ever again.
Thank you for your video to the community. You've managed to inform the rest of us this might be a scam and prevented the similar loss of money.
I hope another painting service offers to take your project at a discounted price or in a timely manner to restore everyone's faith in the community and/or raise their community standing.

Sincerely,
Me


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 07:23:27


Post by: winterdyne


 -Loki- wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.
The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.


Also - that's your pricing. Not BTPs. If they're charging for showcase quality what you'd charge for tabletop quality, that's simply them charging less. It doesn't lower the expected delivered quality.


The one thing I can agree with Shawn on is that quality is subjective. We can only go on general consensus of services with good reputation.
This gives a set of baselines of sorts. I boil down to two levels really; high end tabletop (what I game with) and competition grade. Talking about passes, layers blah blah is technically pointless. Too much depends on specifics for the job.

As for them charging less; they're charging for their level of quality (any place does). If they can demonstrably be proven to have lied about something they're in trouble, and up to that point it's very much caveat emptor. My point was the expected quality really needs to be measured against the two yardsticks of time and money. Thirdly, there's experience, which is not so easy to put numbers on. I've been painting for nearly thirty years, but I'm nowhere near as fast as Brandon (GMM) or as skilled at NMM as Tommie (Golem). I do other stuff and I wheedle out what's in my clients' heads. That latter part is more of the job than you might think; this is not paint by numbers, and clients often have contradictory ideas which take some work to codify.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 07:58:49


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Is there somewhere that has samples of the BTP levels?

At the end of the day, quality wise, that's what it comes down to. If they aren't putting out the advertised quality then they're doing the wrong thing. I know what you're saying, winterdyne, with buyer beware, but the buyer should not have to be looking through false advertising.

But that said... I can't find samples of their levels. I remember they used to have them up and I remember a level 4 being something that didn't look terrible.

Beyond the quality issue, there's the issue of not living up to the contract which outlined how the models should be painted. I'm very much with the OP on this, just because a picture looks dark doesn't mean most of it can be left black primer. The reference images for the army are definitely dark... but they're dark reds and metals and browns, not black.

At the end of the day, I think if a company can't produce something for the price they say they can produce it, the company is pretty much entirely in the wrong. It's up to them to tell you that no they can't do it and it's not up to them to take artistic license with the contract.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 08:37:43


Post by: winterdyne


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Is there somewhere that has samples of the BTP levels?

At the end of the day, quality wise, that's what it comes down to. If they aren't putting out the advertised quality then they're doing the wrong thing. I know what you're saying, winterdyne, with buyer beware, but the buyer should not have to be looking through false advertising.

But that said... I can't find samples of their levels. I remember they used to have them up and I remember a level 4 being something that didn't look terrible.

Beyond the quality issue, there's the issue of not living up to the contract which outlined how the models should be painted. I'm very much with the OP on this, just because a picture looks dark doesn't mean most of it can be left black primer. The reference images for the army are definitely dark... but they're dark reds and metals and browns, not black.

At the end of the day, I think if a company can't produce something for the price they say they can produce it, the company is pretty much entirely in the wrong. It's up to them to tell you that no they can't do it and it's not up to them to take artistic license with the contract.


I fully agree with all of this. Similarly doing anything extreme (the red 'glow' for example) without the say-so or approval of the client is a definite no-no. The Mayan-style space marines I'm doing at the moment were originally to be all turquoise (according to the client). I thought a beige/sandstone sorf of colour would hold the theme better, said so, said why, and did a test model to show the better scheme. Client approves (or not) at that point and the rest of the job grinds on. That's what should be done with ideas, and that's what gets clients to trust you and accept your guidance in future.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 13:36:05


Post by: Lockark


 Physh wrote:


In addition to this, I remember a good chunk of years ago say 5, that he received a Armorcast Phantom Titan in what was to be a trade for terrain. He literally flipped and sold the titan(after it was painted w/ an army to match IIRC) before the client that traded it got the terrain. Upon getting the terrain it was a mockery of what was agreed upon and went public with people able to see the Face on Pringle cans through paint and Tide bottles just painted over with no additional work to transform it at all.


I think I know what phantom you are talking about. I recall seeing a video of that army. I never heard this story about a trade for terrain or even seen this terrain.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 15:24:57


Post by: curran12


Having seen the second video, I'm starting to rethink my stance of BTP's issues arising solely from being overwhelmed and out of touch. There is some very clear and deliberate attempts at (for lack of a better term) bullying tenebre. First and foremost is the constant attempts to shift the blame onto him, to make him feel like he is the one at fault for posting his review, rather than it being BTP's fault that they fail;ed the project in the first place. Second is the really poor "we have so many happy clients" angle which has no bearing at all on the current situation, it's another attempt to pressure someone into accepting a resolution they are not happy with.

Finally, I think what we most see is something anyone who has had a bad experience with BTP has shared; there is a huge reliance on stalling, delay, overwheming-with-words and what is seemingly intentional muddying of the concerns in order to get the client to simply give up and take what is being offered out of frustration. I know I had this happen to me, and reading this thread, it seems to have happened to others. I wonder how much of that is intentional now.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 15:36:03


Post by: Eilif


This looks like a clear case of a money grab to me. No one viewing the first video can think that the models are painted to the standard that was agreed upon, and it's hard to believe that BTP expected to get repeat business for such work.

This smacks of a company that is desperately looking to pad their bottom line even if that means losing any chance of repeat customers. That is not the kind of company that one would be wise to deal with.

I suspect that some customers who paid for (and received) lower table-top level armies are pleased with the results, but that in no way make up for scamming those who pay for top quality results.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 22:06:52


Post by: winterdyne


Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 22:34:48


Post by: Flippa


Seriously nice offer Winterdyne!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 22:36:51


Post by: Anfauglir


 Flippa wrote:
Seriously nice offer Winterdyne!

Seconded!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 22:45:08


Post by: neal1975


OP - any other update, or continued response from BTP ?

Any legal heat yet?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 23:35:41


Post by: swampyturtle


That was a nice offer winterdyne. Exalted!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/15 23:59:29


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Is there somewhere that has samples of the BTP levels?

At the end of the day, quality wise, that's what it comes down to. If they aren't putting out the advertised quality then they're doing the wrong thing. I know what you're saying, winterdyne, with buyer beware, but the buyer should not have to be looking through false advertising.

But that said... I can't find samples of their levels. I remember they used to have them up and I remember a level 4 being something that didn't look terrible.


 Ouze wrote:
.....
The thing I don't get about this is - they have a video up showing their painting levels:




And they sort of all look pretty terrible. I mean, what you got seems pretty good relative to what they claim to sell. Even the highest levels offered aren't particularly great to my eye.


Page 5 is not an excuse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: JINKIES! The video is gone now!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 00:04:26


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Yeah, it was that removed video I encountered when I tried searching.

I would like to a reference of level 4 for comparison... but I have a feeling that's why the video was removed, they don't want to incriminate themselves in the public eye (or legal eye) by having reference images of different levels.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 00:05:10


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those Wave Serpents are way better level 3's than tenebre's vehicles.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 00:11:34


Post by: Eldarain


 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those Wave Serpents are way better level 3's than tenebre's vehicles.

"But that's the general rule when you upgrade from level 3 to level 4. You can expect a lot more scrutiny and a lot more detail to be put in to the models."

You don't say...


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 00:16:38


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those Wave Serpents are way better level 3's than tenebre's vehicles.
It's really quite hard to see, but the lines do look cleaner and details don't seem to be missing.

But for some reason I can't play the video in 720p and it's rather blurry in the lower resolutions so it's hard to say.

They also chose the wave serpents which are very easy to paint with an airbrush, there's probably only 3 to 4 hours painting in each one (plus assembly, no idea how long they take to assemble).

It is a worry when they don't provide static pics of somewhat reasonable resolution. A video where you pick up a model and wave it in front of the camera is really not sufficient for getting an idea of the painting quality.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 00:27:22


Post by: Salamandrake


 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
http://youtu.be/s7gkXVuUz4E?t=3m9s.

LOL, the bluetooth in the ear at all times... Strike 1.

Tenebre, I'm really sorry for how much you've gone through in this ordeal. For what it's worth, your Chaos Dwarves army is awesome despite the unfortunate paintjob. I wish you the best of luck in getting satisfaction from BTP and want to thank you for bringing this issue to light so that others might be spared the same bad experience. High five.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 01:02:26


Post by: totalfailure


Looks like they've taken the video of their painting levels private - for good reason, too. What they were showing in it as representative of level4/6 painting is nothing like what this poor army got.

The work they did looked rushed, sloppy, and inconsistent (except in its mediocrity). By their own standards I'd say this army was level 2, with some lazy airbrushing to pass it off as a higher level. How does something like the OSL lava 'effects' he didn't even request get in there, when the blood and gore he wanted was no where to be seen?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 01:21:49


Post by: TheKbob


So when I attended Feast in '13, I was curious about what BTP offered and had them explain to me their levels and what not. I got the "looks good to the opponent, looks good to me, looks good at arm length, and finally results in looks good at close scrutiny". I acted as a pleb just trying to see what I would charge if I started to commission (I'm no Garden Ninja, GMM, Winterdyne, etc.), but I know people were interested in my ability. My thoughts were always level variation on model costs and start from there... basic paint? 1x. Good-Great paint? 2x. My best? 3x. (negotiate if it's a rare model with an absurd cost versus a reaper mini)

I work full time and have plenty of my own projects, so I didn't pursue the endeavor, but I then asked BTP about what it would cost to paint at my level...

I showed them this, which I got a 3rd place result for the local crystal brush:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/555331-.html?m=2

Not gonna lie, followed BuyPainted almost to a T just to see if I could. But I digress, I was told that it was a Level 6 model easy and that it would cost hundreds for them to do. I shrugged and thought if I asked the $200 to do one, I'd not feel too bad.

Now, fast forward to this thread,... I'm shocked. While they have good, clean colors and know where to place it for the glow effects, the amount of bare primer and dry brushing is a big pile of nope. I may yet commission someday, but that's just asinine for what you paid for. I hope for a reasonable resolution, but take note that there are many folks watching this thread who will withhold dollars from them (or maybe even compete against them... ).


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 01:24:23


Post by: curran12


I wonder if the pulling of the painting level video is in reaction to tenebre's video where he says he is getting lawyers involved?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 01:58:35


Post by: cyberjonesy


That army looks gorgeous imo :/


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 01:59:28


Post by: TheKbob


 cyberjonesy wrote:
That army looks gorgeous imo :/


Yes, but does it look ~$8,000 USD gorgeous? A solid pre-owned vehicle gorgeous?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 02:11:02


Post by: Breotan


I can't even wrap my head around paying that much for getting an army painted. Which is why most of my stuff isn't, I guess.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 02:46:54


Post by: tenebre


winterdyne wrote:
Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.


This is very kind. I truly appreciate the support. I will let you know. Right now I am playing 40k to avoid being soured on everything.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 02:58:09


Post by: jreilly89


tenebre wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.


This is very kind. I truly appreciate the support. I will let you know. Right now I am playing 40k to avoid being soured on everything.


Right on. Any batreps as of yet to speak of?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 03:11:16


Post by: xxvaderxx


Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 03:21:41


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.
I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.

Of course now that tenebre has put up his review which has almost 6000 views... he can probably rely a bit more on them to actually communicate and fix the problems instead of just giving the "we'll do that tomorrow/this week/later" and it never happening.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 03:52:39


Post by: xxvaderxx


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.
I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.


Look nobody is denying that, but reality is, no company in any field has any incentive to give you money for you to go spend it in a competitor after you very publicly criticized their service for millions to see. That how ever does not mean a company cant own up to it and do right by you.

It is not so much he does not have the right, he certainly does, but what does he exactly expects to get out of this. If what he wants is a refund for somebody else to do it, he is not going to get it, not from btp or anybody else in this situation for that matter, if all you really want it to post it here, then by all means. If how ever he wants to have a crack at receiving a better service, which btp has offered to pay the shipping and redo the army from scratch, then yes it does require for him play ball and time, paint and models do not simply materialize out of thin air.


He has the completed product in his hands, he has complained about it (rightfully so) and he has been contacted and offered the option of a full re do. Personally i think that along some small refund or an extra say monstrous model or something as an apologetically gesture is an adequate answer from BTP. The ball is in his court now.

Should he proceed with it and receive yet another sub par service, then most certainly another video would be due with the according criticism. That judgment how ever, should wait until such event.




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 03:57:30


Post by: Swastakowey


The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 03:58:28


Post by: jreilly89


xxvaderxx wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.
I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.


Look nobody is denying that, but reality is, no company in any field has any incentive to give you money for you to go spend it in a competitor after you very publicly criticized their service for millions to see. That how ever does not mean a company cant own up to it and do right by you.

It is not so much he does not have the right, he certainly does, but what does he exactly expects to get out of this. If what he wants is a refund for somebody else to do it, he is not going to get it, not from btp or anybody else in this situation for that matter, if all you really want it to post it here, then by all means. If how ever he wants to have a crack at receiving a better service, which btp has offered to pay the shipping and redo the army from scratch, then yes it does require for him play ball and time, paint and models do not simply materialize out of thin air.


He has the completed product in his hands, he has complained about it (rightfully so) and he has been contacted and offered the option of a full re do. Personally i think that along some small refund or an extra say monstrous model or something as an apologetically gesture is an adequate answer from BTP. The ball is in his court now.

Should he proceed with it and receive yet another sub par service, then most certainly another video would be due with the according criticism. That judgment how ever, should wait until such event.




Seriously? How can you even think this is an option? It's already been shown they have a terrible turn around time, piss poor communication, inability to follow through on their promises (he asked em to fix several things and they never did), and unwillingness to paint at the level expected. He never asked for the glow effects or the lava base, something they did against his will.

I don't think its likely that they'd steal his minis so much as this would only drag out the process and upon return, if hes still unsatisfied, they'd just say "Well, we paid for them to be shipped to us, completely stripped and repainted, and he's still not happy!"

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:21:52


Post by: xxvaderxx


 jreilly89 wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Was the work sub par and are you in your right to complain about it?, personally i think that yes you most certainly are. As you pointed out primary color does not equal use this X colors, but a range or a pallet of them. Details are generally speaking lacking, and to be honest the army in general seems primer + drybrush.

Having said that, Shawn seems a reasonable business man (whom should have likelly asked a 3rd party to write the responses to your emails) and willing to make up for this clear lapse in quality. If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.

In case it was not clear, yes this is a colossal feth up on BTPs part, but if you really want them to fix it, which they should, you need to agree to work with them.
I understand where you're coming from, but at this point it just seems like tenebre wants to cut his losses and get the largest refund possible to try a different company. If they'd just sent him the models and they sucked and so he was refusing to send them back to have them fixed, yeah ok, but while the project was still with BTP he was requesting pictures, communication and amendments that never happened.


Look nobody is denying that, but reality is, no company in any field has any incentive to give you money for you to go spend it in a competitor after you very publicly criticized their service for millions to see. That how ever does not mean a company cant own up to it and do right by you.

It is not so much he does not have the right, he certainly does, but what does he exactly expects to get out of this. If what he wants is a refund for somebody else to do it, he is not going to get it, not from btp or anybody else in this situation for that matter, if all you really want it to post it here, then by all means. If how ever he wants to have a crack at receiving a better service, which btp has offered to pay the shipping and redo the army from scratch, then yes it does require for him play ball and time, paint and models do not simply materialize out of thin air.


He has the completed product in his hands, he has complained about it (rightfully so) and he has been contacted and offered the option of a full re do. Personally i think that along some small refund or an extra say monstrous model or something as an apologetically gesture is an adequate answer from BTP. The ball is in his court now.

Should he proceed with it and receive yet another sub par service, then most certainly another video would be due with the according criticism. That judgment how ever, should wait until such event.




Seriously? How can you even think this is an option? It's already been shown they have a terrible turn around time, piss poor communication, inability to follow through on their promises (he asked em to fix several things and they never did), and unwillingness to paint at the level expected. He never asked for the glow effects or the lava base, something they did against his will.

I don't think its likely that they'd steal his minis so much as this would only drag out the process and upon return, if hes still unsatisfied, they'd just say "Well, we paid for them to be shipped to us, completely stripped and repainted, and he's still not happy!"

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


Yes we have already established he received a bad service, that is not the point, the point is what is he willing to do if anything to have the situation rectified, as he said, it is no like a they have not given him reasonable options, under your logic you better directly not contact or complain about any product with any company because what is the point?. His second video is about follow up and options, he got them, now what is he going to do about it?


At this point in time this whole affair to me reads like this(with out the vitriol on either side)
+Customer A requested an expensive service with company B.
+Customer A received a sub par experience from company B.
+Customer A complained about the sub par experience from company B.
+Company B offered appropriate alternatives to amend Customer A experience.
+Customer A has opted to decline Company B offer and terminate their relationship.


That is what has happened so far, and any further judgement should be reserved for and if further developments happen.


 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


On his second video, he explains BTP offered to re do the project from scratch, that essentially entail doing everything again assuming with the corrections and better communication, not a copy paste of the previous failed job.




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:29:12


Post by: plastictrees


They were horrible to communicate with and in no way met the expectations they established the first time, when they were paid. Now he's supposed to trust a clearly embittered company owner with his $1000s of minis to fix them in a timely manner and, from BTPs perspective, for free?
I don't think I'd describe considering that to be an undesirable option to be "childish".


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:31:25


Post by: Swastakowey


No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:31:34


Post by: plastictrees


Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:38:16


Post by: xxvaderxx


 plastictrees wrote:
Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.


No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.


 Swastakowey wrote:
No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.


They did offer it, dont remember the minute exactly is on the second video when he talks about the 4 options given to him.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:47:41


Post by: jreilly89


xxvaderxx wrote:
 plastictrees wrote:
Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.


No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.


 Swastakowey wrote:
No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.


They did offer it, dont remember the minute exactly is on the second video when he talks about the 4 options given to him.


This is an unusual business, as most of their reputation lies on visuals and word of mouth. They are a service company, they produce no products of their own, and when you deliver subpar service on thousands of dollars of miniatures, then yeah, you're going to catch some gak. Also, compannies risk getting sued all the time, that's why they have lawyers. Trust me, this is not what I would call an established company, they are shady in terms of communication and have been getting bad reviews for years, but instead of fixing them, trying to get them removed.

I've done tons of work in the customer service and seriously, this is NOT the way to handle it. Had they been decent on their communication, him resending the minis to get redone would be absolutely acceptable. Given their lack of communication, though, he is correct to be wary. I think even a partial refund is their best be of remedying the situation.

Seriously, Shawn, is this you?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:53:23


Post by: plastictrees


xxvaderxx wrote:
 plastictrees wrote:
Honestly, an established company expecting to get a 'do-over' on intentionally sub par work is childish.


No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.


 Swastakowey wrote:
No he said they offered to fix the things marked QC that the BTP guy thought needed fixing. They wont be redoing the entire project as far as I heard on there. Only that they would fix the Quality control errors.

I could be wrong but thats what I got from BTPs list of amendments. Unless the painter that gets sent over there is redoing the whole thing, but we all know thats not happening.


They did offer it, dont remember the minute exactly is on the second video when he talks about the 4 options given to him.


What's clear is that you enjoy being contentious for it's own sake. In my industry if you did an equivalent job to the on BTP did here you would refund your clients money and desperately hope they still didn't sue you.
Please bear in mind that this isn't a case of, 'not quite meeting expectations', there was clearly no miscommunication between the client and BTP, instructions were simply ignored. If we had framers that took three times as long as stated to finish their work, ignored code and drawings and decided to use wood they found somewhere they would NOT be given an opportunity to fix their work on our dime.
This isn't a mistake, this is shoddy work that BTP chose to deliver and are now being called on. There's no benefit of the doubt here.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:54:43


Post by: RiTides


Commissioning is so hard- I've had varied experiences with it. For a long time, I decided to only paint things myself, but recently commissioned a LOCAL painter to do some Infinity for me, and was very pleased (enough that I'm having him do a second round now).

However, I think staying local is the best bet, because worst case you can just easily get the models back (or, really worst case, recover them through small claims court).

I finally got to watch the video in the OP, and the paint jobs actually look OK- but the price is the issue, if he paid something like $7-8K for the work (he hasn't posted what he paid, just based on hints from earlier in the thread).

I've also found that disasters are more common in huge army commissions like this- unless you're using GMM Studios, it overwhelms most commission painters. They take on the job, but are unable to follow through due to the time required.

Anyway, just some thoughts since I've been lurking this thread for a bit.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 04:54:56


Post by: xxvaderxx


 jreilly89 wrote:

This is an unusual business, as most of their reputation lies on visuals and word of mouth. They are a service company, they produce no products of their own, and when you deliver subpar service on thousands of dollars of miniatures, then yeah, you're going to catch some gak. Also, compannies risk getting sued all the time, that's why they have lawyers. Trust me, this is not what I would call an established company, they are shady in terms of communication and have been getting bad reviews for years, but instead of fixing them, trying to get them removed.

I've done tons of work in the customer service and seriously, this is NOT the way to handle it. Had they been decent on their communication, him resending the minis to get redone would be absolutely acceptable. Given their lack of communication, though, he is correct to be wary. I think even a partial refund is their best be of remedying the situation.

Seriously, Shawn, is this you?


Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?. Im assuming we or he wants the best possible outcome, thats why i said a refund is a non starter.

As i previously mentioned, i fully agree Shawn should not have written the answers him self, some one more detached should have done so but in my opinion this is far from an unsolvable situation. Fault lies in principle with BTP but the customer does need to be reasonable as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 plastictrees wrote:
What's clear is that you enjoy being contentious for it's own sake. In my industry if you did an equivalent job to the on BTP did here you would refund your clients money and desperately hope they still didn't sue you.
Please bear in mind that this isn't a case of, 'not quite meeting expectations', there was clearly no miscommunication between the client and BTP, instructions were simply ignored. If we had framers that took three times as long as stated to finish their work, ignored code and drawings and decided to use wood they found somewhere they would NOT be given an opportunity to fix their work on our dime.
This isn't a mistake, this is shoddy work that BTP chose to deliver and are now being called on. There's no benefit of the doubt here.


As you acknowledged this is not your industry, and nobody is asking for the benefit of the doubt, btp fethed up, that is already established. It is also established they have offered to re do the job and so far he has declined the offer. It could very well be that btp turn up another sub par product, but that should be on their heads when and if that happens. If all you would want to do about it is to pout in you bedroom, then so be it, but the second video is about getting the situation resolved.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 05:15:43


Post by: Manchu


Please keep an eye on using swear words. Some times the filter does not catch it. Everyone is responsible for what they post including what they quote. Thanks


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 05:29:08


Post by: plastictrees


xxvaderxx wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:

This is an unusual business, as most of their reputation lies on visuals and word of mouth. They are a service company, they produce no products of their own, and when you deliver subpar service on thousands of dollars of miniatures, then yeah, you're going to catch some gak. Also, compannies risk getting sued all the time, that's why they have lawyers. Trust me, this is not what I would call an established company, they are shady in terms of communication and have been getting bad reviews for years, but instead of fixing them, trying to get them removed.

I've done tons of work in the customer service and seriously, this is NOT the way to handle it. Had they been decent on their communication, him resending the minis to get redone would be absolutely acceptable. Given their lack of communication, though, he is correct to be wary. I think even a partial refund is their best be of remedying the situation.

Seriously, Shawn, is this you?


Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?. Im assuming we or he wants the best possible outcome, thats why i said a refund is a non starter.

As i previously mentioned, i fully agree Shawn should not have written the answers him self, some one more detached should have done so but in my opinion this is far from an unsolvable situation. Fault lies in principle with BTP but the customer does need to be reasonable as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 plastictrees wrote:
What's clear is that you enjoy being contentious for it's own sake. In my industry if you did an equivalent job to the on BTP did here you would refund your clients money and desperately hope they still didn't sue you.
Please bear in mind that this isn't a case of, 'not quite meeting expectations', there was clearly no miscommunication between the client and BTP, instructions were simply ignored. If we had framers that took three times as long as stated to finish their work, ignored code and drawings and decided to use wood they found somewhere they would NOT be given an opportunity to fix their work on our dime.
This isn't a mistake, this is shoddy work that BTP chose to deliver and are now being called on. There's no benefit of the doubt here.


As you acknowledged this is not your industry, and nobody is asking for the benefit of the doubt, btp fethed up, that is already established. It is also established they have offered to re do the job and so far he has declined the offer. It could very well be that btp turn up another sub par product, but that should be on their heads when and if that happens. If all you would want to do about it is to pout in you bedroom, then so be it, but the second video is about getting the situation resolved.


This is your industry then is it? Are you a professional painter?
You ARE asking for BTP to be given the benefit if the doubt. I don't define screwing up as purposefully doing sub par work and ignoring client instructions. So now you expect him to send his army off to them _again_ otherwise he's being difficult?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How many opportunities would they get to turn in acceptable work? How many times would you send your miniatures to a service provider that has shown no integrity before you're the idiot.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 05:40:29


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


xxvaderxx wrote:
No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.
I feel like you're missing the gigantic point where on several occasions he requested WIP pics, where he had specific requests that weren't met and until he made a video review there was very poor communication.

If a mechanic fixes my car and something is wrong, yeah, I'll take it back and get them to fix it. If they repeatedly ignore my requests, do things without telling me and in general have a poor level of service, hells yes I will want a refund and take it somewhere else.

+Customer A requested an expensive service with company B.
+Customer A requested communication on how the service would be completed.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested work in progress pictures on several occasions.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested some work to be repaired.
+Company B did fix some things and not others.
+Customer A attempted to communicate about how the project was proceeding.
+Company B did not satisfactorily comply.
+Company B is taking a lot longer than initially agreed
+Customer requests updates on where it is
+Company tells customer "couple of days" but nothing happens... twice.
+Company finally tells customer that the army is only half done... even though it's 60% beyond the date it should have been completed by.
+Customer gets uphappy so company puts a rush on it... says it will take 2 days but it actually takes a week and another 3 days for pictures.
+Customer complains and requested some work to be repaired
+Company did fix some things and not others, some things taking an excruciatingly long time.
+Customer finally receives work and it is sub par.
+Customer complained about the sub par experience from company B.
+Company B offered appropriate alternatives to amend Customer A experience.
+Customer A has opted to decline Company B offer and terminate their relationship. because it is already way past the allotted time and has received poor customer service

Fixed that for you.

I do feel like you're ignoring the whole "lots of stuff happened before finally getting army in hand and complaining that it is subpar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?
I am not up with US consumer law... but my guess would be the incentive is to avoid going to court in a case you will most certainly lose because you didn't provide a satisfactory product, satisfactory customer support and not in a satisfactory timeframe.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 05:58:03


Post by: Physh


How about this in the 2nd video during the QC part." Lighting on the Axe or w/e- opinion! " If I heard it right, it is Shawn that is saying he is of the opinion that the Light needs not be changed because he thinks it looks good. I work in hospitality and have been 90% of my working adult life. Customer is ALWAYS right reguardless of what you the Employee think, even when in fact Customer is wrong(Not saying OP is at all in this example). When told by the Employee/Owner/Manager/Whomever that they dont think this or that needs to be fixed because it looks good to them is wrong way of going about what the client wants.

If Someone were to come to me saying the Medrare steak that they ordered med rare isnt, No questions asked, I take the steak back, ask for it to be redone even if that steak was originally sent out at exactly Med Rare. BTP said they fired a staff member due to this project early on, and OP said he(stating this was Renn- who is missing from most videos again) was the best painter on the project. Whether or not it had to do with this and having the project go missing(could just be a lie that they decided to take a break) or because real life got in the way is BS when you see how the place is run. I said in an earlier post that it just isn't one artist, its a group of them and how in the hell do/can those 4 people paint the exact same? Cut corners. Why does it take for so long for something to go through painting(regardless of scale and time)? Cut corners and work on other projects at the same time, include other commissions and that of the personal sort. There is a very open door feel to most of the Studio updates that we see, and know people are playing video games when you'd think they'd be working or doing personal armies when it should be focused on clients. Maybe it has to do with the rumor they are behind on $$$. Maybe the Staff is "over worked'- LOL. To me when its of the opinion they look good to the employee and the client doesn't agree, you bite your tongue and you fix it.

It feels more and more like this was one of those projects they just saw the $$$ and spent it before work even started. you see it all the time with Roofing Contractors and such that come in to repair off down or full payment up front and skip town. Now we all know that they dont necessarily do it, but sure feels that way knowing they put out a product a lot of people are happy with


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 06:01:02


Post by: jreilly89


Guys it's okay. xxvaderxx is not so secretly Shawn. Give BTP the benefit of the doubt


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 06:06:22


Post by: ClockworkChaos


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
No it isnt, it happens all the time in every industry, what is childish is to think that an established company will risk getting sued and quite likely getting permanently burned on the public eye, over 1k in merchandise. Handiwork has to be redone, mechanic work re done, pieces fail specs and need to be re done or re designed so on and so forth, it strikes me that you have little experience on the customer service side of things.
I feel like you're missing the gigantic point where on several occasions he requested WIP pics, where he had specific requests that weren't met and until he made a video review there was very poor communication.

If a mechanic fixes my car and something is wrong, yeah, I'll take it back and get them to fix it. If they repeatedly ignore my requests, do things without telling me and in general have a poor level of service, hells yes I will want a refund and take it somewhere else.

+Customer A requested an expensive service with company B.
+Customer A requested communication on how the service would be completed.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested work in progress pictures on several occasions.
+Company B did not comply.
+Customer A requested some work to be repaired.
+Company B did fix some things and not others.
+Customer A attempted to communicate about how the project was proceeding.
+Company B did not satisfactorily comply.
+Company B is taking a lot longer than initially agreed
+Customer requests updates on where it is
+Company tells customer "couple of days" but nothing happens... twice.
+Company finally tells customer that the army is only half done... even though it's 60% beyond the date it should have been completed by.
+Customer gets uphappy so company puts a rush on it... says it will take 2 days but it actually takes a week and another 3 days for pictures.
+Customer complains and requested some work to be repaired
+Company did fix some things and not others, some things taking an excruciatingly long time.
+Customer finally receives work and it is sub par.
+Customer complained about the sub par experience from company B.
+Company B offered appropriate alternatives to amend Customer A experience.
+Customer A has opted to decline Company B offer and terminate their relationship. because it is already way past the allotted time and has received poor customer service

Fixed that for you.

I do feel like you're ignoring the whole "lots of stuff happened before finally getting army in hand and complaining that it is subpar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Really? partial refund, what is exactly their incentive to do a partial refund at this point?
I am not up with US consumer law... but my guess would be the incentive is to avoid going to court in a case you will most certainly lose because you didn't provide a satisfactory product, satisfactory customer support and not in a satisfactory timeframe.


This, this this! I know people are suppose to turn the other cheek when wronged, but you are also taught not to be taken for a fool. The OP is in the right to do what he did. As stated the trust is broken and honestly nothing can be expected of BTP. It is unrealistic to expect anything from them when all they have done is stall during the project and almost all request to correct mistakes were ignored.

Also to clarify, if he went with the painter option on the QC options would be altered. As for the full repaint, that honestly seemed a bit vague on the fixes and with what they produce so far... hmmm.

Also I do agree with some from far away the army looks fine. BUT that isn't the point, it should look great close up and filled with at least some level of detail for what he paid. Also who leaves primer sticking out?? I just can't believe that.

Overall this just appears like neglect on so many levels from BTP and I do not feel like the OP should have to trust them when they have broken that trust.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 07:21:58


Post by: Big Mac


BTP is definitely in the wrong here, the fair options are 1) full refund and apology, 2) on failed painted models, as some of the units were up to par, buy brand new models and paint them to the standard and send to the client.

About sending back the models and have them retouch them: the problem is not so much as a missing highlight, it's more like a mold line where you have to strip it and start over. The amount of money he paid, there should be enough to replace the models not up to par.

A solution for BTP painting techniques in the future: a watered down base coat would cover the black primer easily before painting.

A possible solution for the client to mask the black primer effect on the models: FW dry powders.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 07:30:15


Post by: winterdyne


With a balls up of this magnitude there is going to be a hit on reputation.

This is not the clients problem.

The work should not have gone out the door, and the situation is not fixable by BTP; despite requests to put right they have failed to comply, repeatedly and demonstrably.

BTP's only option now is a significant refund, and even then that is not going to fix the 'this really shouldn't have left the studio' issue. It would however reassure customers that they should according to BTP processes get what they pay for. Note: not 'will', as you can bet something will go wrong sooner or later, but at least some acknowledgment of the issue should take place,

What BTP are doing now is further damaging their standing; the army is clearly substandard, and attempting to defend it just shows they don't want to accept responsibility for mismanaging the project.

Legally speaking, I don't know about the US, but in the uk this would be a case of goods or services not as described. If insufficient attempt to make good has been made (after several emails in before delivery this is the case) there is a breach of sales contract and the client can take the service provider for damages, not limited to; financial damages in putting right the work, legal costs, punitive damages for stress or inconvenience, loss of business revenue etc. It's a pain in the backside and generally needs to be done with the assistance off local trading standards groups.


Edit: Shawn's comment that the internet is like a funhouse mirror is true; even isolated, this case is damaging. Again, though, this is not the client's problem- it is a factor of working in a connected age. You need to get your stuff right before it goes out the door. Failure to do so leads to situations that are highly damaging and nearly impossible to fix.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 07:57:34


Post by: sarpedons-right-hand


It's a real shame and I feel terrible for you tenebre. Having watched your video I think you show remarkable restraint, especially considering that some minis, specifically the war machines, look to have been rushed out of the door. Heck, I and many others on here could probably have done a better job with those.
For the amount of money paid and the time invested both on your part and BTP's, I would have expected something a whole lot better. The other thing to note is that on BTP's YouTube video that details your army, the guy filming it seems genuinely enthused about it and seems to really love the miniatures themselves. If that's the case why does there seem to have been no love and care put into the painting itself?

I can only speak for myself, but when a miniature really enthuses me, I do a much better job on the paintwork.

I hope you can get something sorted out here. Good luck!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 11:13:11


Post by: tenebre


 jreilly89 wrote:
tenebre wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
Just watched through your vid Tenebre.

Terrible treatment you're getting; I massively disapprove - it casts the commission industry as a whole in a very negative light.

I'll repeat my earlier statement - you have several months, full time work, to bring that up to a decent standard. Only accept a faster estimate from someone provably fast (to which I'd say Brandon at GMM - he is sorcerously quick).

I'll also make an offer; I will paint, for free (shipping not included), that character model you had issues with, to 'high end tabletop' standard, so you know what you can get in other places from decent artists. Drop me a PM if you'd like this and we can discuss details.

Edit: Yes, this will lead to a perhaps inconsistent army. What you have now is gak anyway.


This is very kind. I truly appreciate the support. I will let you know. Right now I am playing 40k to avoid being soured on everything.


Right on. Any batreps as of yet to speak of?


I couldnt bring myself to play with my CDs. However I will post in the appropriate forum when the Batreps start going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Big Mac wrote:


A possible solution for the client to mask the black primer effect on the models: FW dry powders.

I had not thought of that option! brilliant!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 11:29:45


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Big Mac wrote:
A possible solution for the client to mask the black primer effect on the models: FW dry powders.


To be honest, given the availability and ease of use of airbrushes and washes, i can not fathom why they still opt to use drybrushing on a massive project such as this. Airbrush + washes creates better results than coats + drybrushing in something like 90% of the models out there, muscle checked, plated armor checked, fur checked. The only real situation where a model merits drybrush in my opinion is for small enclosed details, like say a fire/torch in an otherwise different colors army. It boggles my mind why BTP keeps using this kind of technique.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 12:28:12


Post by: Bora77


tenebre, seriously.

at the amount of money you invested and they way BTP failed to coomunicate with you or amend any mistakes for a presumably highest level painting level they offer, you should not be too lazy to get a lawyer.

The lawyer will cost you a couple hundred bucks, but they will eventually give in to your reasonable refund demands, unless they want to really duke it out at court, losing not only all the money you gave them, but also their reputation and additional layer costs..


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 13:07:45


Post by: brendan


OP, sorry to view/read your tale of woe. It has put me off commissioning as I can't afford the pros elsewhere discussed in this thread.

I will caution that small claims court will not be the cakewalk that others here suggest. Painting quality is subjective.

Good luck in any event, and I hope the misfortune does not put you off the hobby entirely.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 13:37:57


Post by: Lockark


People keep saying he should of gone for the full re-do. The problem is if you watch the video they were only going to repair what they felt needed repainted.

Shawn said himself he doesn't see anything wrong with the fact the chaos dwarf blocks are mostly visible primer. That is acceptable for a $14 per model paint job.


Shawn and blue table will just repaint what they feel like repainting. Not what the OP wanted them to paint.

BP has failed on many levels here. Your option as a paying customer doesn't matter as much as shawn's.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 13:53:08


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


 brendan wrote:
OP, sorry to view/read your tale of woe. It has put me off commissioning as I can't afford the pros elsewhere discussed in this thread.


Local painters doing it for spare cash is probably a way to do it on a budget, you get so see them in person to check out their work and pay in much smaller chunks of cash.

EDIT: although you may well find they get 'bored' or just stop taking on paid work so you may not get all of a large army done over the time period finanaces mean you need to take


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:00:41


Post by: Saldiven


 Ouze wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
It's not really our business, though, is it?


It becomes salient in terms of advice. If he paid $900, no one would suggest litigation, if he paid $9,000, we can't suggest small claims court. Also, it's a lot easier to say "cut your losses" if he's out a couple of hundred dollars vs a couple of thousand dollars.


You can still go to small claims for $9K in most of the country. Most states have it as $10K or less.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:24:31


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Ouze wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
It's not really our business, though, is it?


It becomes salient in terms of advice. If he paid $900, no one would suggest litigation, if he paid $9,000, we can't suggest small claims court. Also, it's a lot easier to say "cut your losses" if he's out a couple of hundred dollars vs a couple of thousand dollars.


This is far too much of a rational piece of advice, i demand you desist in you lethargy and pick up your pitch forks and torches.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:28:27


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
 brendan wrote:
OP, sorry to view/read your tale of woe. It has put me off commissioning as I can't afford the pros elsewhere discussed in this thread.


Local painters doing it for spare cash is probably a way to do it on a budget, you get so see them in person to check out their work and pay in much smaller chunks of cash.

EDIT: although you may well find they get 'bored' or just stop taking on paid work so you may not get all of a large army done over the time period finanaces mean you need to take
Yeah, the problem with such a large army that you want painted to a reasonably good quality... it's just a huge amount of work. For someone to do it in their free time you're looking at 6 months to a year assuming they're dedicating a few hours a day to it on average. Even doing it as a full time job you're looking at 3 or 4 months of work.

That's not something most small time commission painters are set up to do. Only people who are doing it as a job or have a studio with multiple workers would even consider it... assuming they actually made a realistic timeline. I'm sure a lot of small time commission painters just starting out might accept it and then a week in to the project think "what the hell have I gotten myself in to."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Saldiven wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
It's not really our business, though, is it?


It becomes salient in terms of advice. If he paid $900, no one would suggest litigation, if he paid $9,000, we can't suggest small claims court. Also, it's a lot easier to say "cut your losses" if he's out a couple of hundred dollars vs a couple of thousand dollars.


You can still go to small claims for $9K in most of the country. Most states have it as $10K or less.
It has a surprisingly large variance across the US, ranging from $2.5K in Kentucky and Rhode Island up to $25k in Tennessee.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-suits-how-much-30031.html


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:34:34


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


Second video minute 49:50


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:44:44


Post by: Lockark


xxvaderxx wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


Second video minute 49:50


Yah, Sept he would still be stuck with that God awful object source lighting he didn't even want in the 1st place.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:47:53


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


xxvaderxx wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


Second video minute 49:50
Which is not reasonable because the army uses OOP models, conversions he has done himself and would take a long time to do. Not to mention the fact they've already shown themselves to be unreliable.

I will say though... I don't really think tenebre should have posted his 2nd video until after he came to some sort of resolution. As interesting as it was to watch (though I did skip through bits as I don't have time to watch it through ) I don't think it benefits the situation to post that video until it was without a doubt you weren't going to get a satisfactory resolution and/or if BTP were just stalling.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:49:34


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Lockark wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


Second video minute 49:50


Yah, Sept he would still be stuck with that God awful object source lighting he didn't even want in the 1st place.


One assumes the whole point of redoing the army is to take the feedback into consideration. Should he get a carbon copy of what he has now, then most certainly they should be bashed about it, but sadly none of us has a crystal ball thus that should wait until the redo is complete.

He purchased a service, a process, at the end of the process he is not satisfied with the result and requests very publicly that they fix the mistake. They have offered exactly that.

Dont get me wrong, should they come up after the second process with the same crap results, i will be the first to grab my pitch forks and torches, but their attempt to rectify the situation has in my opinion been reasonable up to this point.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:52:32


Post by: neal1975


Tenebre - any update? where do things stand, and what is your course of action?




My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:53:05


Post by: Lockark


xxvaderxx wrote:
 Lockark wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


Second video minute 49:50



Yah, Sept he would still be stuck with that God awful object source lighting he didn't even want in the 1st place.


One assumes the whole point of redoing the army is to take the feedback into consideration. Should he get a carbon copy of what he has now, then most certainly they should be bashed about it, but sadly none of us has a crystal ball thus that should wait until the redo is complete.


Wait. Are you talking about the option were they sell his army and try to make a better one?

A army full of op models that they even said on camera they did not recognize?

The best conversations in that army were the ones the OP did. Not to mention Shawn has discarded the op's opinion multiple times.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:54:59


Post by: winterdyne


I've said this before in this thread, but I'll repeat, more clearly:

To rework this army is a massive, massive undertaking.

It is not possible to remove / retouch much of it because of the 'OSL' glow effect. (I use quote marks to imply derision).

It's a full repaint (and most likely rebase) of each and every model that is needed to up the quality in any meaningful way.

I would be dubious about this - cleaning up existing models and/or stripping paintwork if required takes FAR LONGER than assembling fresh models off sprue. This is actually the reason I don't take on 'redo' jobs. My pay per hour is already low enough, without taking on more work for no return.

Edit: Due to the number of OOP and converted models, it is extremely difficult to reproduce the model collection.





My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 14:59:12


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Lockark wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
 Lockark wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
The problem is, xxvadrexx is BTP only will address the items marked as QC which are things like the goblin feet being pink etc. But they wont fix up the army in the way he originally wanted. Which means if BTP have their way then that means the army wont be fixed, it will just be minutely better.

So I think its best if he gets a refund since they didnt even do what he asked in the majority of cases. They cant fix it, they have to re do it. Which they wont do.


Second video minute 49:50


Yah, Sept he would still be stuck with that God awful object source lighting he didn't even want in the 1st place.


One assumes the whole point of redoing the army is to take the feedback into consideration. Should he get a carbon copy of what he has now, then most certainly they should be bashed about it, but sadly none of us has a crystal ball thus that should wait until the redo is complete.


Wait. Are you talking about the option were they sell his army and try to make a better one?

A army full of op models that they even said on camera they did not recognize?

The best conversations in that army were the ones the OP did. Not to mention Shawn has discarded the op's opinion multiple times.


That is not what he described on the video, what he said they offered him is for him to keep that army until the new one from scratch is completed, once the 2nd army is complete he can send in that one and they will send him the new one. Regarding the names of the models, lets not be childish here, there are thousands of models out there from thousands of manufactures, the fact that on a quick glance of the top of his head he got a few names mistaken does not really mean much.

Dont get me wrong, should they come up after the second process with the same crap results, i will be the first to grab my pitch forks and torches, but their attempt to rectify the situation has in my opinion been reasonable up to this point.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:01:18


Post by: tenebre


 neal1975 wrote:
Tenebre - any update? where do things stand, and what is your course of action?




Keep in mind all of the options provided required removal of video and ceasing all action prior to BTP doing anything. Which would render me, the client, powerless and back on their terms and timelines.
BTP has already removed the option of flying out a painter as well as others due to the points i made in the video.

I will find resolution. But I will not be making more videos on BTP. If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:09:16


Post by: Lt. Coldfire


tenebre wrote:
If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


I think everyone is just curious how this situation is going to get resolved and the end result of the painted army, but that's going to be a while so maybe we should all calm down.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:11:24


Post by: tenebre


 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
tenebre wrote:
If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


I think everyone is just curious how this situation is going to get resolved and the end result of the painted army, but that's going to be a while so maybe we should all calm down.


I promise to post the result of what happens when i can. At this point I can say BTP is not willing to compromise on any point.

I will also make videos on the repainted army when that happens (however that may come about, but it will not be by BTP)


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:13:21


Post by: xxvaderxx


tenebre wrote:
 neal1975 wrote:
Tenebre - any update? where do things stand, and what is your course of action?




Keep in mind all of the options provided required removal of video and ceasing all action prior to BTP doing anything. Which would render me, the client, powerless and back on their terms and timelines.
BTP has already removed the option of flying out a painter as well as others due to the points i made in the video.

I will find resolution. But I will not be making more videos on BTP. If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


Videos can be taken down as well as they can be re uploaded. Really, if the project is redone and for it to be done properly it requires time, regardless of who does it. At this point what do you exactly have to loose?, money you are not going to get, the army you can keep until the other project is finished, chasing down oop models is their problem not your and a follow up video on that is ofcousre warranted. I think you should take a step back chill out and let this play out. The follow up video on this does not need to be all rainbows and flowers either, the screw up was there regardless of what was done to rectify it afterwards. I happen to have worked a fair bit for big companies and customer service (and with its policies) and i tell you, you are getting as a reasonable attempt at rectifying the situation as you can expect, and in my opinion a reasonable one in general.

Now it could very well be that they screw up again, but that should not be your working assumption, your assumption should always be that rectification is possible otherwise there is no base for dialog.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:16:05


Post by: gunslingerpro


xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
 neal1975 wrote:
Tenebre - any update? where do things stand, and what is your course of action?




Keep in mind all of the options provided required removal of video and ceasing all action prior to BTP doing anything. Which would render me, the client, powerless and back on their terms and timelines.
BTP has already removed the option of flying out a painter as well as others due to the points i made in the video.

I will find resolution. But I will not be making more videos on BTP. If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


Videos can be taken down as well as they can be re uploaded. Really, if the project is redone and for it to be done properly it requires time, regardless of who does it. At this point what do you exactly have to loose?, money you are not going to get, the army you can keep until the other project is finished, chasing down oop models is their problem not your and a follow up video on that is ofcousre warranted. I think you should take a step back chill out and let this play out. The follow up video on this does not need to be all rainbows and flowers either, the screw up was there regardless of what was done to rectify it afterwards. I happen to have worked a fair bit for big companies and customer service (and with its policies) and i tell you, you are getting as a reasonable attempt at rectifying the situation as you can expect, and in my opinion a reasonable one in general.

Now it could very well be that they screw up again, but that should not be your working assumption, your assumption should always be that rectification is possible otherwise there is no base for dialog.


Does the fact that he asked multiple times for simple fixes and was ignored not mean anything to you?

Dialogue only works if both sides are listening. BTP had multiple opportunities to fix this and was asked multiple times to do so, as evidenced in the video. How many times must Tenebre be ignored before he stops accepting their attempts at repairs?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:20:53


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


xxvaderxx wrote:
Dont get me wrong, should they come up after the second process with the same crap results, i will be the first to grab my pitch forks and torches, but their attempt to rectify the situation has in my opinion been reasonable up to this point.
Except it's not their 2nd attempt. From the beginning the client was requesting communication on the project (which he was told would be fine). He requested images throughout the process which didn't come. The project went way beyond the initial allotted time. THEN the models finally got done (after some stalling on their part) and photographed and were unsatisfactory (as were the images themselves in evaluating the models). After trying to get those issues addressed he FINALLY received the unsatisfactory army.

I wasn't really trying to keep count, but if you then get them to paint a whole new army this would be, what, their 6th attempt to feth things up? How many times along the way of the newly painted army are they again going to do the wrong things and further delay the whole project? How are they going to deal with the fact some of the models are OOP or conversions by the client?

If it were as simple as them doing something, getting it wrong and then seeking to make amends, I would be agreeing with you, xxvaderxx, but after fething up on so many levels over the course of the whole project I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to seek a refund over giving them yet another chance of fixing it when they've already had several chances.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:25:05


Post by: xxvaderxx


 gunslingerpro wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
 neal1975 wrote:
Tenebre - any update? where do things stand, and what is your course of action?




Keep in mind all of the options provided required removal of video and ceasing all action prior to BTP doing anything. Which would render me, the client, powerless and back on their terms and timelines.
BTP has already removed the option of flying out a painter as well as others due to the points i made in the video.

I will find resolution. But I will not be making more videos on BTP. If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


Videos can be taken down as well as they can be re uploaded. Really, if the project is redone and for it to be done properly it requires time, regardless of who does it. At this point what do you exactly have to loose?, money you are not going to get, the army you can keep until the other project is finished, chasing down oop models is their problem not your and a follow up video on that is ofcousre warranted. I think you should take a step back chill out and let this play out. The follow up video on this does not need to be all rainbows and flowers either, the screw up was there regardless of what was done to rectify it afterwards. I happen to have worked a fair bit for big companies and customer service (and with its policies) and i tell you, you are getting as a reasonable attempt at rectifying the situation as you can expect, and in my opinion a reasonable one in general.

Now it could very well be that they screw up again, but that should not be your working assumption, your assumption should always be that rectification is possible otherwise there is no base for dialog.


Does the fact that he asked multiple times for simple fixes and was ignored not mean anything to you?

Dialogue only works if both sides are listening. BTP had multiple opportunities to fix this and was asked multiple times to do so, as evidenced in the video. How many times must Tenebre be ignored before he stops accepting their attempts at repairs?


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.

The process broke down, granted, it cant be your working assumption that this is the norm and not the exception and at the same time work with the service provider for them to rectify the situation, both of this are contradictory.

Now if the same thing repeats on the rectification attempt, then yes most certainly you should start assuming that is the norm.



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:29:06


Post by: tenebre


xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.

The manufacturer will refund 100% and profusely apologize.

My friend had a similar problem with cabinet work. The cacked up the 2nd time. Then immediately gave 50% refund and paid ANOTHER company to redo those. These were around $30k.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:29:38


Post by: Yodhrin


xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
 neal1975 wrote:
Tenebre - any update? where do things stand, and what is your course of action?




Keep in mind all of the options provided required removal of video and ceasing all action prior to BTP doing anything. Which would render me, the client, powerless and back on their terms and timelines.
BTP has already removed the option of flying out a painter as well as others due to the points i made in the video.

I will find resolution. But I will not be making more videos on BTP. If anyone does not have a clear picture of what happened by now ,,, I dont know what to say.


Videos can be taken down as well as they can be re uploaded. Really, if the project is redone and for it to be done properly it requires time, regardless of who does it. At this point what do you exactly have to loose?, money you are not going to get, the army you can keep until the other project is finished, chasing down oop models is their problem not your and a follow up video on that is ofcousre warranted. I think you should take a step back chill out and let this play out. The follow up video on this does not need to be all rainbows and flowers either, the screw up was there regardless of what was done to rectify it afterwards. I happen to have worked a fair bit for big companies and customer service (and with its policies) and i tell you, you are getting as a reasonable attempt at rectifying the situation as you can expect, and in my opinion a reasonable one in general.

Now it could very well be that they screw up again, but that should not be your working assumption, your assumption should always be that rectification is possible otherwise there is no base for dialog.


You've been told, multiple times, that they're not offering to rectify the problems he's identified, only the problems he identified which they agree are problems - for example the OSL stays, despite the fact they did it without even asking if he wanted it, and as far as I'm concerned that alone constitutes sufficient breach of trust that returning the army to them for further work is unreasonable. Beyond that though, we're not talking about giving them a second chance, they already had a second chance, and a third, to fix the problems tenebre described, and instead they fannied about for many times the original quoted length of time and then sent him a half-painted army. Telling tenebre he needs to "chill out" is a bit of a cheek frankly, most people would have posted a shouty expletive-filled rant not a product review in which he went out of his way to try and find positive things to say and the most agitation that was on display was an occasional exasperated sigh, and that would apply doubly when BTP's response to that review was to try and turn things around and make this whole fiasco somehow his fault and argue that many of the examples of their incompetence present in the army are merely subjective artistic interpretations.

In the UK, BTP's behaviour would be grounds to set Trading Standards on them and to sue the crap out of them, it's just a shame that the USA often doesn't have robust consumer protection laws.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:33:28


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


xxvaderxx wrote:
It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.
But that analogy is not even close to accurate.

A more apt analogy would be taking a car... a nice car, think an 60's mustang or corvette... to a mechanic that needs a lot of work. You outline the work you want done. They just do other things without actually telling you what they've done, they don't fix your original problems, they just do some other stuff... and they do it poorly... and they aren't communicating with you even though you are trying to communicate with them... and they are stalling along the way and taking far longer than they estimated and agreed to take.

THEN you finally see the car (because, ya know, lack of communication, you're only seeing it when they say they're done) and you ask them "wtf?" and ask them to fix some of the issues with their poor workmanship and not doing what you asked. They then screw around a bit more, fix a couple of the things you asked for but not all of them and again take longer than they say they'll take, finally delivering you your substandard car.

This is now the point Tenebre is at... does he send the car back to that same mechanic to have another crack at it? I know if it were me I sure as hell wouldn't be trusting them any more.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:34:23


Post by: Forar


xxvaderxx wrote:
If i may be blunt, you being unwilling to ship the army to them (provided they pay the costs of said shipping) is simply not reasonable if you are looking for an amiable solution.
Yes it will take longer and yes it should be mentioned in a post resolution video, but them paying a 3rd company or you not giving them your army to fix is simply not realistic.
Personally i think you should go with the new army they option they offered you. Lets just say that worrying about them dissapearing with your models is a bit childish.


It absolutely is not. I've only been on Dakka for a couple years now and I've seen plenty of horror stories about armies being held for ages, if not flat out never returned. A pile of models (some apparently self converted and/or rare/hard to come by) worth thousands of dollars, along with thousands more being spent on their 'work' is not something to just hand back over to the people who proved unable to meet their own standards.

While we know the numbers aren't perfect, the general ones batted around have been 2k for the army and 8k for the painting, making that army a ten thousand dollar investment. Handing it back simply means instead of being out thousands for a substandard paint job, he's now out that money, plus the models, plus the potential need to buy them again should the worst case scenario happen.

That's not 'childish', that's recognizing that the service in question may not, in fact, be worth trusting with quite that much money and materials.

People have done dumber things over less. Frankly, I would have a hard time trusting them either. Perhaps a chance to redeem themselves, but for that much money? There's plenty of reasonable concern that it'd simply become throwing good money after bad.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:39:45


Post by: xxvaderxx


tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.


Then you cross that bridge when you get there. Not before.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:42:59


Post by: gunslingerpro


xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.


Then you cross that bridge when you get there. Not before.


You're not understanding. The bridge has been crossed.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:44:20


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.

The manufacturer will refund 100% and profusely apologize.

My friend had a similar problem with cabinet work. The cacked up the 2nd time. Then immediately gave 50% refund and paid ANOTHER company to redo those. These were around $30k.
I don't know what the law is in the USA, I imagine it's similar when it comes to breaking contracts... but out here they are allowed to try and fix it if they can fix it within "reasonable time", if they can't fix it within reasonable time they're obliged to give you a refund. "reasonable time" is variable, but where it was specifically outlined in the original contract that the project would be completed in 8 weeks and it actually took 15 and the result is still unsatisfactory, I don't think they'd have a leg to stand on when it comes to refusing a refund. Especially when the contract has been breached not only on time but also on what they said they would produce and the quality of what they did.

I would be interested to know if US law is similar, I imagine it would be, even if you don't have as good consumer protection laws as Australia/UK/etc, I imagine actual breach of contract would be a big thing, as would false advertising.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:46:47


Post by: tenebre


AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I would be interested to know if US law is similar, I imagine it would be, even if you don't have as good consumer protection laws as Australia/UK/etc, I imagine actual breach of contract would be a big thing.


US law is actually a bit more stringent than UK (havent dealt with contracts in Oz) law concerning contract execution and breach.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:47:50


Post by: Lt. Coldfire


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.

The manufacturer will refund 100% and profusely apologize.

My friend had a similar problem with cabinet work. The cacked up the 2nd time. Then immediately gave 50% refund and paid ANOTHER company to redo those. These were around $30k.
I don't know what the law is in the USA, I imagine it's similar when it comes to breaking contracts... but out here they are allowed to try and fix it if they can fix it within "reasonable time", if they can't fix it within reasonable time they're obliged to give you a refund. "reasonable time" is variable, but where it was specifically outlined in the original contract that the project would be completed in 8 weeks and it actually took 15 and the result is still unsatisfactory, I don't think they'd have a leg to stand on when it comes to refusing a refund. Especially when the contract has been breached not only on time but also on what they said they would produce and the quality of what they did.

I would be interested to know if US law is similar, I imagine it would be, even if you don't have as good consumer protection laws as Australia/UK/etc, I imagine actual breach of contract would be a big thing, as would false advertising.


In the US, you can rent a house, stop paying rent, continue to live in the house and the home owner can't kick you out. We tend to favor bad behavior and criminals.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 15:55:53


Post by: xxvaderxx


 gunslingerpro wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.


Then you cross that bridge when you get there. Not before.


You're not understanding. The bridge has been crossed.


No, i am not agreeing which is different, the process was not over until he signed it over. After that he rightfully so uploaded a review with his experience of said process.

The process breaking down is not in dispute either.

Them giving it another crack at the process with the working assumption that this was the exception and not the norm is not unreasonable.

This kinds of services much like software development, which i happen to work on, should be weighted as a whole thing, not every single step individually. Communication broke down, ok, i get that, that is just one step in the process not multiple attempts at fixing the same project, even if that is what you call them. In fact i would venture most projects they handle go through some correction or modification steps, whether it be because the artist screws up or the client just changes his mind. The problem here was that his feedback was not taken into account for what ever reason until he eventually desisted and there you get the finished product.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:02:05


Post by: warboss


xxvaderxx wrote:

Videos can be taken down as well as they can be re uploaded. Really, if the project is redone and for it to be done properly it requires time, regardless of who does it. At this point what do you exactly have to loose?


Unless of course they added the condition that the videos must PERMANENTLY be taken down before they do anything which given their alleged tone and stance is likely. If he breeched that assuming that they sent him more substandard work, he'd be open to a nuisance lawsuit himself for breeching that contract and I'm guessing that BTP has more money to throw at that to draw it out than a single lone gamer does.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:22:08


Post by: Chute82


Take BTP on the Judge Judy show. I would like to see her yell at Shawn


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:24:37


Post by: Flippa


xxvaderxx wrote:
 gunslingerpro wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.


Then you cross that bridge when you get there. Not before.


You're not understanding. The bridge has been crossed.


No, i am not agreeing which is different, the process was not over until he signed it over. After that he rightfully so uploaded a review with his experience of said process.

The process breaking down is not in dispute either.

Them giving it another crack at the process with the working assumption that this was the exception and not the norm is not unreasonable.

This kinds of services much like software development, which i happen to work on, should be weighted as a whole thing, not every single step individually. Communication broke down, ok, i get that, that is just one step in the process not multiple attempts at fixing the same project, even if that is what you call them. In fact i would venture most projects they handle go through some correction or modification steps, whether it be because the artist screws up or the client just changes his mind. The problem here was that his feedback was not taken into account for what ever reason until he eventually desisted and there you get the finished product.


It's like you developing a game that looks like doom when gears of war was requested, them asking you to make it into gears of war and you come back with doom2 and say that's enough, it's all subjective and there's nothing wrong with doom2!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:28:10


Post by: Saldiven


 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.

The manufacturer will refund 100% and profusely apologize.

My friend had a similar problem with cabinet work. The cacked up the 2nd time. Then immediately gave 50% refund and paid ANOTHER company to redo those. These were around $30k.
I don't know what the law is in the USA, I imagine it's similar when it comes to breaking contracts... but out here they are allowed to try and fix it if they can fix it within "reasonable time", if they can't fix it within reasonable time they're obliged to give you a refund. "reasonable time" is variable, but where it was specifically outlined in the original contract that the project would be completed in 8 weeks and it actually took 15 and the result is still unsatisfactory, I don't think they'd have a leg to stand on when it comes to refusing a refund. Especially when the contract has been breached not only on time but also on what they said they would produce and the quality of what they did.

I would be interested to know if US law is similar, I imagine it would be, even if you don't have as good consumer protection laws as Australia/UK/etc, I imagine actual breach of contract would be a big thing, as would false advertising.


In the US, you can rent a house, stop paying rent, continue to live in the house and the home owner can't kick you out. We tend to favor bad behavior and criminals.


Not quite correct. The laws vary from state to state, but they all require a dispossessory action to be filed. Some states make it more difficult to file a dispossessory action than others. In the state where I live, Georgia, it rarely takes more than a month to process an eviction. The other extreme would be California, where it can take 6+ months to process the eviction. It isn't about protecting "bad behavior and criminals," it's about protecting the consumer from over zealous efforts of eviction.

That being said, if you don't get a full refund, it might be worth filing in small claims, though the law might require you to file it in a court where BTP is located, and you'll need to nail down to whom the suit needs to be served. If you can demonstrate that you paid for a specific quality of product and can then demonstrate that the quality you received was far less than what you paid for, you should be awarded at least some portion of your request. However, getting a judgment is the easy part; collecting on it is a totally different kettle of fish.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:38:08


Post by: plastictrees


xxvaderxx wrote:
 gunslingerpro wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.


Then you cross that bridge when you get there. Not before.


You're not understanding. The bridge has been crossed.


No, i am not agreeing which is different, the process was not over until he signed it over. After that he rightfully so uploaded a review with his experience of said process.

The process breaking down is not in dispute either.

Them giving it another crack at the process with the working assumption that this was the exception and not the norm is not unreasonable.

This kinds of services much like software development, which i happen to work on, should be weighted as a whole thing, not every single step individually. Communication broke down, ok, i get that, that is just one step in the process not multiple attempts at fixing the same project, even if that is what you call them. In fact i would venture most projects they handle go through some correction or modification steps, whether it be because the artist screws up or the client just changes his mind. The problem here was that his feedback was not taken into account for what ever reason until he eventually desisted and there you get the finished product.



You're just being willfully dense at this point.
1: "the process didn't breakdown", they didn't comply with any of his requests or meet any of their own timelines.
2: They aren't offering to rectify things to his satisfaction, but to _theirs_ which is absurd.

This isn't software development (hilarious that you commented on me being in an unrelated industry btw), this is a physical product. BTP has been paid in full, has shown to be completely unwilling or incapable of listening to instruction, have stated that they will only fix what they consider to need fixing and you are expecting him to send his remaining investment back to them _knowing_ that they have stated that they will _not_ be fixing it to _his_ satisfaction.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:40:56


Post by: SBG


xxvaderxx wrote:
 gunslingerpro wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
tenebre wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:


It means a lot in regards to the sub par service he received, which again has already been established and nobody is disputing, at least from our side. It does not mean much in regards to which course to follow. If you buy an electronic product and when you receive it is defective, you are going to request an exchange, you are not going to not let the manufacturer rectify it because you assume all his products are defective. Same thing applies here.



Sure. Then you get another defective one.. Request 2nd exchange, then get a 3rd and 4th defective one.


Then you cross that bridge when you get there. Not before.


You're not understanding. The bridge has been crossed.


No, i am not agreeing which is different, the process was not over until he signed it over. After that he rightfully so uploaded a review with his experience of said process.

The process breaking down is not in dispute either.

Them giving it another crack at the process with the working assumption that this was the exception and not the norm is not unreasonable.

This kinds of services much like software development, which i happen to work on, should be weighted as a whole thing, not every single step individually. Communication broke down, ok, i get that, that is just one step in the process not multiple attempts at fixing the same project, even if that is what you call them. In fact i would venture most projects they handle go through some correction or modification steps, whether it be because the artist screws up or the client just changes his mind. The problem here was that his feedback was not taken into account for what ever reason until he eventually desisted and there you get the finished product.


Guys... Vader's sitting at his bank of monitors, cat on lap, twirling his mustache and chuckling while his goons set ineffective plans in motion and the laser beam-on-shark project is underway.

He's just trolling at this point, no one is quite that vacant.

I really hope there's appropriate remuneration for this army fiasco, good luck OP!



My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:42:29


Post by: neal1975


Heres the way i see it:


Tenebre: you are NEVER going to get the money back from them. Well, your not going to get nearly what you deserve or would feel good about. They might offer a 15-18% refund, but thats a slap in the face compared to what they owe you for the utter disgrace of a paintjob and service they gave you. In my honest opinion, they owe you about a 60% refund. maybe more, maybe 70%. It will take that much to get the army repainted. You are *NEVER* going to see that. Just forget about that and plan accordingly. The only way you could ever hope to get the money back in some meaningful percentage would be to fight them for it in court and that could cost, in legal fees and travel / lodging fees, FAR more than the refund ever would be. It could also drag out so long that by the time you got the money you would have allready gone insane from fatigue and despair.

BTP knows this. They know that it is just not feasable for you to fight them for the money in court, or small claims court. They know no one is driving or flying to utah. So they are using this to their advantage and get away with this type of treatment to their customers and control any $&%#storms like this that come up like this.

However, one thing they CANT control is the internet. The internet makes the world a very small place. Especially youtube. The financial damage and havok you have caused to their reputation far exceeds by orders of magnatude any amount of the refund. Which doesnt make any sense really why shawn would rather play the spin game and try to worm his way out of any responsibility and meanwhile allow this devastating review of his company persist online. As other posters have said, its basically business suicide.


So, it seems :

You want something - You want $$$$. You know you are done with the artists of this company, so its ludicrous to give them another shot for more shoddy paintwork. You dont want their paintwork. you want $$$.

They want something - They want this horrific PR to go away, and quickly. (the threads and youtube reviews to come down). They want you to go away, quickly.

If i was a mediator, i would encourage both parties to concentrate on what the other wants and try to meet in the middle for a resolution. $$$$ for removal of all negative PR. They pay you a respectable refund, you sign a statement saying you will remove all negative PR and never make another statement about them again.


However, if your ethics are more important than $$$$, and you the type of guy would rather watch something burn to the ground instead of compromising your ethics, then i say just write the cash off your taxes - and make sure that you know every single miniature collector and gamer in the entire world knows this company is a dirty, unethical pit of slime and fraud.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:46:09


Post by: curran12


Ethics should be more important than money, I don't even see why this is even a question.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 16:50:07


Post by: plastictrees


I've never understood why Corvus Belli have a relationship with these guys. They seem to make smart choices with all their other partners and then you have these jokers.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 17:29:10


Post by: ClockworkChaos


 plastictrees wrote:
I've never understood why Corvus Belli have a relationship with these guys. They seem to make smart choices with all their other partners and then you have these jokers.


I agree. Corvus Belli is only of the top quality and I greatly respect that. They have great relationships with all their partners and all their partners are hard working good reliable companies. Then you have BTP. It is so out of place with the quality, honesty and community communication that CB is known for. Maybe someone should let them know how they run stuff? It is possible that they literally have no idea all the shady stuff that is coming to light (cause you know, being in Spain and all). Cause if that was the case, that would make sense.

Also yes, OP made it pretty clear in the video he would not compromise his ethics. It may cost him but he made it clear he would not remove the videos. That is commendable as so many places just bully those smaller when they can to hide the bad press.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 17:29:50


Post by: Saldiven


Here's another way to look at this situation. I am not a lawyer, but the following is based on my understanding of the laws in my state and a limited amount of experience I have on the subject.

Say, for example, you hire a contractor to paint your house. You have a specific paint scheme in mind, pastel blue with white trim on the soffits, fascia, and faux shutters. You agree on a price. When you return from vacation, you discover that the wrong colors of paint were used, and added elements like stencils on the fascia were added without our request. You request corrections to be made, but after one or two attempts, the work still does not match what was contracted.

At this point, you don't have any further legal requirement to work with the original contractor. At this point, you could (within your legal rights) hire a totally different contractor to correct the mistaken paint job. At that point, you take the bill from the second contractor and use it as the basis for "damages" when filing a lawsuit against the original contractor.

It's a risk, of course; you might not win the suit. However, the burden of proof is pretty low. You'd have your original request, agreement and contract. You made good-faith effort to work with the original contractor, but they failed to live up to their part of the bargain. That's really all you would have to prove. After that, you would then have to document that the amount that you are seeking in damages is reasonable, and that might include testimony or an affidavit from the second contractor in addition to that contractor's bill for services. The defendant would then be placed in a situation where they would have to either provide a legal basis for their failure to meet the terms of the original agreement, or convince the judge that their original work actually did meet the terms of the agreement.

Dunno if it's worth the time, effort, hassle, additional financial expenditure, and risk of capital loss, but this is an option to pursue.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 17:44:51


Post by: swampyturtle


Lets all be honest, at this point BTP has "crossed the Rubicon", There's no going back.

We all know the video is staying up and I for one think that the video is a far assessment of the work given and payed for. He does not yell or scream. He gives a fair review and to me that's what the video was there for.

That being said, a lot of what BTP has done is worthy of note. Hiding videos, deleting his army off their photo gallery. Forcing him to remove the videos? Its all sketchy.

Does anyone have a idea how much it would cost them to return 60% of his refunds. 60% of 8000$ would be 4,800$ dollars. That's a lot of money to talk about. If he did take the 10-15% it would be 1,200$. That's a 3,600$ difference. Then there is the question if BTP even still has the money?

That is a lot of money to be talking about. I wouldn't give up without a fight either. I hope Tenebre gets his funds back because i personally would love to see that army painted up to standard as it should have been!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 18:28:22


Post by: privateer4hire


 neal1975 wrote:
...They know that it is just not feasable for you to fight them for the money in court, or small claims court. They know no one is driving or flying to utah...


I dunno. Anybody who can afford both that much Forge World and the extremely costly painting fees discussed in this thread (plus an amazing hobby room shown in the vids) might just be able to jump in their Lexus or have Alfred pilot the family Learjet to wherever it's needed to get papers served and see a court case through to the end without problem.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 18:36:46


Post by: curran12


Nice attacking of Tenebre, privateer. Real classy.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 18:39:40


Post by: privateer4hire


 curran12 wrote:
Nice attacking of Tenebre, privateer. Real classy.

Not an attack. I'm saying the OP obviously has a financial resources that would be foolish to ignore.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 18:40:17


Post by: Lt. Coldfire


 curran12 wrote:
Nice attacking of Tenebre, privateer. Real classy.


Agreed. And I'm willing to bet that tenebre's butler is not named Alfred. That would be too obvious.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 18:49:07


Post by: Alpharius


RULE #1 seems to be seeing a bit of a test in here.

Let's not skirt that line anyone, please?

And, you know, On Topic, etc.

Thanks!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 19:55:47


Post by: Saldiven


privateer4hire wrote:
 neal1975 wrote:
...They know that it is just not feasable for you to fight them for the money in court, or small claims court. They know no one is driving or flying to utah...


I dunno. Anybody who can afford both that much Forge World and the extremely costly painting fees discussed in this thread (plus an amazing hobby room shown in the vids) might just be able to jump in their Lexus or have Alfred pilot the family Learjet to wherever it's needed to get papers served and see a court case through to the end without problem.


Or, he could just hire an attorney in Utah.

Small claims court doesn't require an attorney, but you can still have one if you want. And, the fees can be added to the judgment.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 20:08:06


Post by: knighthaunter


I don't feel privateer4hire was attacking him, and really i have been thinking along these lines myself since i first watched this. I believe the nuts and bolts of it is that BTP has picked a fight with the wrong guy. Tenebre clearly is not only thinking about his own remediation but also seems to be fighting this on principal, lets face it we are looking at a 10k ish drop of capital over a short period, not a trival thing. If it were some of us at an even smaller number many of us could not afford to fight it. This is something a great many people bank on. Obviously we cannot judge (nor should we try) Tenebre's entire financial situation based on the little we know, but it surely leans towards someone who's not a pauper, which i as the little guy who would normally be pretty powerless in a situation like this, salute him for sticking to his guns.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 20:11:55


Post by: xxvaderxx


 knighthaunter wrote:
I don't feel privateer4hire was attacking him, and really i have been thinking along these lines myself since i first watched this. I believe the nuts and bolts of it is that BTP has picked a fight with the wrong guy, Tenebre clearly is not only thinking about his own remediation but also seems to be fighting this on principal, lets face it we are looking at a 10k ish drop of capital over a short period, not a trival thing, if it were some of us at an even smaller number many of us could not afford to fight it. This is something a great many people bank on, obviously we cannot judge (nor should we try) Tenebre's entire financial situation based on little we know, but it surely leans towards someone who's not a pauper, which i as the little guy who would normally be pretty powerless in a situation like this, salute him for sticking to his guns.


Have to agree, this is a lot of money in both merchandise and service, be it me i could not really afford it nor feel inclined to go to court about it, but his situation might be different. Last i heard having money was not a crime...


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 20:21:07


Post by: hungryp


xxvaderxx wrote:

Have to agree, this is a lot of money in both merchandise and service, be it me i could not really afford it nor feel inclined to go to court about it, but his situation might be different. Last i heard having money was not a crime...


Depends whose money it is


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 20:29:35


Post by: privateer4hire


 knighthaunter wrote:
I don't feel privateer4hire was attacking him, and really i have been thinking along these lines myself since i first watched this. I believe the nuts and bolts of it is that BTP has picked a fight with the wrong guy, Tenebre clearly is not only thinking about his own remediation but also seems to be fighting this on principal, lets face it we are looking at a 10k ish drop of capital over a short period, not a trival thing, if it were some of us at an even smaller number many of us could not afford to fight it. This is something a great many people bank on, obviously we cannot judge (nor should we try) Tenebre's entire financial situation based on little we know, but it surely leans towards someone who's not a pauper, which i as the little guy who would normally be pretty powerless in a situation like this, salute him for sticking to his guns.


Thanks, Knighthaunter. You read my intent exactly.
Not an attack at all, just knowing that anybody who can spend that much on one army has considerable resources.
I will now bow out of the thread and let things get back on topic.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 22:59:19


Post by: Gymnogyps


Been lurking in this thread for a while, and haven't seen this explicitly stated, but...

BTP's response seems to be from the perspective of responding to the BBB. From what I remember from a BBB complaint I made a long time ago (for a completely different product/issue, but it should be the same)... the process is:

1. consumer files complaint
2. Business responds, or does not. Lack of response is a ding from BBB.
3. Response is considered reasonable by consumer, or not. I know I was asked by BBB as to whether my resolution was reasonable, and since I never got an actual response from the company regarding my issue, I said no. The issue went away, though, and I have no idea what BBB did.
4. If response is acceptable to consumer, no BBB ding. If not accepted, I believe that BBB judges whether to ding the company on rating or not. This, I think, is what BTP is trying to establish... that tenebre is unreasonable, but they made an effort. Which is completely out of line based on the evidence as noted here previously, but they can spin to BBB however they want.

Anyway, as others have noted, a court case is not likely for most consumers. But a BBB rating reduction is very possible, which is why it is the angle I think BTP is attacking. The wording in the BTP response actually sounded like what I recall in my BBB dispute from back then.

Anyone else ever gotten that far with BBB? Have any other insight?

Oh. and tenebre... dude. This totally sucks. I felt so badly for you when hearing the frustration in your voice. BTP appears to be working on undermining you instead of acting to fix the issues in good faith. That is incredibly frustrating.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 23:33:16


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
Nice attacking of Tenebre, privateer. Real classy.


Agreed. And I'm willing to bet that tenebre's butler is not named Alfred. That would be too obvious.
Since when is it an attack to suggest someone might have money? If I had a butler I think it'd be written in to the contract that he has to change his name to Alfred... or Jeeves. In the case of the latter he would also be required to refer to me as Mr Wooster.

But anywho... there's probably not a lot of point offering legal advice unless we actually have some experience or qualifications on the matter in the particular state where it would occur.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/16 23:44:29


Post by: Malik_Raynor


Dude I'm sorry you wasted your money with that horrible speed painting over costed service. Both my buddy and I completely wasted our money. We as a support community should ban together and let the DakkaDakka community know what kind of work they will be paying for :/
I also would love Shawn to go up against Judge Judy...make the man cry cuz dude he is was to happy about his products his teams put out!


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/17 00:21:07


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I normally don't watch Judge Judy because I found it hard to get the palm print off my face, but I would definitely watch the BTP episode


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/17 01:06:45


Post by: neal1975


here is their BBB page
http://www.bbb.org/utah/business-reviews/painting-contractors/blue-table-painting-in-spanish-fork-ut-22300407


I noticed they have an A+ rating, and zero complaints WTF?

Tenebre, the first step would be to file a formal complaint on the BBB, did you do this?


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/17 01:18:04


Post by: Boggy Man


Sadly BBB has become more of a corporate protection racket of late than an actual tool. Member companies pay dues and BBB gives them an A+ rating.

My late father got burned by a well known loan company, but I'd rather not get into it.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/17 01:58:25


Post by: neal1975


i think the rating system has more to do with their resolution of complaints. They can have 4000 complaints but if they have made an attempt to resolve them all, they get to keep an A rating.

But yes, its all smoke and mirrors, but its at least one avenue you can pursue to try and put some heat on a company. its better than nothing i guess.

Anothing thing you could do is report Fraud to the FTC (federal trade commission)
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint

(is this technically "fraud"? not sure where you draw the line on that)

Art is a tricky thing to quantify.





My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/17 02:02:27


Post by: tenebre


 neal1975 wrote:
here is their BBB page
http://www.bbb.org/utah/business-reviews/painting-contractors/blue-table-painting-in-spanish-fork-ut-22300407


I noticed they have an A+ rating, and zero complaints WTF?

Tenebre, the first step would be to file a formal complaint on the BBB, did you do this?


yes i did. Which is why i believe he is responding at all and the way in which he is responding as mentioned already.


My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves @ 2014/10/17 02:13:58


Post by: Gymnogyps


 Boggy Man wrote:
Sadly BBB has become more of a corporate protection racket of late than an actual tool. Member companies pay dues and BBB gives them an A+ rating.

My late father got burned by a well known loan company, but I'd rather not get into it.


Yeah, man. I getcha. I didn't go into my details in my previous post, either, but I did feel that getting the BBB involved helped made my issue go away... so maybe my context might be relevant.

My mother and I were customers of the same company. Same last name, same address for a long time, then I moved out. Couple years later, that company sent me a bill for my mother's outstanding balance on something (her name on line item, my name as billable address somehow). I called them thinking it was an error, and told them this was not OK; I was not a payee for her as a customer. They asked me to contact her and ask her to pay her bill to them. That's when I got BBB involved and the issue... disappeared.

My case is much more clear cut than tenebre, which is why I spelled out and qualified my understanding of the BBB complaint process. There are many, many ways for a business to slant the results in their favor. Which is why I view an A+ rating as neutral. My impression, after reviewing the process back then, is that it takes real stupidity/negligence or total lack of effort by a company to get a negative rating applied by BBB.

I recall that a BBB complaint had been filed in this situation, so it does seem that BTP's response is to undermine the customer instead of resolve the issues. Sadly that may be a viable tactic as far as BBB rating, which may explain the A+? Or customers that are vaguely dissatisfied never file a complaint? Not sure. But the wording/tactics seem very pointed.

ETA- tenebre ninja'd my post as I overthought/overedited my response. Edited to reflect info.