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Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 22:14:35


Post by: Rolt


Hi all

The Heavy Gear Blitz: War for Terra Nova Starter Set Kickstarter is now finished and funded, thank you everyone.

Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set

Final Funding: $150,406



From DP9 site and Kickstarter page:
The War for Terra Nova - Starter Set - Kickstarter is to fund molds for plastic miniatures. These high quality multi-part plastic miniatures for our tabletop
wargame will form the new two player Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures - with 4 different models at the start.

We don't want to stop there, a Core Starter Set is also available, with stretch goals that will unlock new models and add move plastic miniatures to the Core Starter Set.
Our desired goal is a Core Starter Set of 46 miniatures and color quick start rulebook, which will be accomplished by reaching the 13th stretch goal of $105K CAD. This
would allow for a variety of eighteen different models from 4 factions in a Core Starter Set for two players, with a multiplayer option of up to four players.

Reaching all our stretch goals will allow us to give our Backers even more, with 52 miniatures, twenty-four different models, for the cost of the Core Starter Set.

Heres the current contents of the starter set, keep in mind as this KS hits more stretch goals more hard plastic gears/units and factions will be added to the core set:

Final $115 backer rewards/core set


Final Stretch goals:


Enjoy people.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 22:31:54


Post by: mrondeau


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/620322.page, in the Misc. Miniature Games sub-forum, should probably be merged with this thread.

In case it is not:
If you want to know why pledging is not a good idea, look at this thread.
I'll also point out that DP9 the company might have 20 years, but the current team does not. Pretty much everyone left around 2003, and the current team has less than 5 years with the company.
The new rules writer has no previous experience in game design (or design, as far as I know), so beware if you want to actually play the game, especially if you care about game balance.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 22:39:05


Post by: Siygess


Ah Heavy Gear. What a great universe for an RPG..

..too bad it didn't stay that way. :(


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 22:40:22


Post by: Rolt



Thanks for posting Mrondeau, any info to help potential backers make an informed purchase is always welcome, like any kickstarter everyone should do their best to know
fully who and what they're getting into we don't need more KS related burns.

In terms of merging the threads I'll leave that to a Mods decision.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 22:44:37


Post by: Barzam


So, for those of us who don't want to read through 50+ pages of people arguing about being true fans, can you give us the reader's digest version of why we shouldn't back this?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 22:58:40


Post by: mrondeau


 Barzam wrote:
So, for those of us who don't want to read through 50+ pages of people arguing about being true fans, can you give us the reader's digest version of why we shouldn't back this?

The team constantly changes. The new hires have little to zero experience. All the problems are caused by either an ex-employee, some outside factor or by the evil complainers, like me, who saw the problems coming and raised the alarm.
There's no vision for the game, and the company never learn from mistakes.They keep doing the same thing, no matter how often it failed before.
Example: the playtest procedure. It never worked. It always failed the same way. Instead of changing it, they just blame the playtesters.

There are other problems, such as arbitrary change to the setting and an apparent wish to go from ranged-focused to melee-focused.
More subjectively, my experience with DP9 consists of broken promises, over-promising and under-delivering.

Honestly, I don't like having this kind of discussion in a news thread, since it makes finding news harder for those interested.
We can continue in the "complain about DP9" thread if you have questions.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 23:03:37


Post by: plastictrees


As someone who jumped in to Heavy Gear for about $350 a year ago, I won't be backing this.
Muddled rules, partial "not really new editions", invalidating models and builds with little understanding of lore or balance...just a big mess that the game isn't remotely good enough to overcome.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 23:05:52


Post by: Barzam


Okay, thanks. So, as long as I don't care about the rules, then it really isn't that big of a deal. I think I'd be more concerned about the fact that they don't actually have their planned material locked in yet. If they can actually pull off proper hard plastic like they say they want to do, I'd be down for getting some of the figures just to have some.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 23:24:24


Post by: Rolt


At the end of the day Barzam you could just wait for retail if your just looking for plastic mechs to build, it might just be the safer option.

Forgo the guessing issues of the material all together.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 23:36:41


Post by: Barzam


That's probably what I will do since I'm tapped out rigbt now for Kickstarters anyway. Plus, I gotta keep feeding those Gunpla ans Infinity addictions.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/23 23:38:31


Post by: Scrub


I've always liked the look of Heavy Gear's models, always wanted to give it a go but the price to get going in the UK is pretty steep (Warhammer has that aspect covered already!) That said the aesthetic really scratches an itch for me but the complaints about DP9 and the game in general does raise some concerns having just read through some threads here on Dakka about it.

Well. I'm in for now, see how it goes!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 01:00:20


Post by: paulson games


I want to love this, but after the games past issues I've quite wary of jumping into this. The scale change broke up the small group here and nobody ever got back onboard and they seem to change rules like somebody changes socks. Another concern is even the base funding level isn't going to afford them the ability to do plastics through the KS funds alone, not a problem if they are using it in combination with other funding sources but if it's being drawn exclusively from KS their base goal is far short of what they'll actually need. Going to have to give it some serious thought before I can throw in on it.

If there's one thing I love it's stompy robots and their designs are excellent. However I've had more than a few disappointments with the company track record and that's what has me gun shy.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 01:01:08


Post by: warboss


 Barzam wrote:
So, for those of us who don't want to read through 50+ pages of people arguing about being true fans, can you give us the reader's digest version of why we shouldn't back this?


In a nutshell, just look at the poll results in the misc games link above for popular reasons why people stopped or never started playing HG. In any case, this is supposed to be (yet another) clean start for the company so I wish them luck. I'll be following the thread here for news.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 01:52:20


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 Barzam wrote:
So, for those of us who don't want to read through 50+ pages of people arguing about being true fans, can you give us the reader's digest version of why we shouldn't back this?
I think this post summed up the salient points pretty well as to making that kind of decision:

 Firebreak wrote:
On the more general nature of this thread and the divisiveness issue, it's a great attitude to give the Pod another chance, but they have a lot to do before they can ever get back to "Well if the Pod's doing it, it's probably going to be good."
A LOT. We as consumers have next to no reason to trust them or support them.
If, for example, Rob and Dave were politicians running for reelection, why should we respond to their blunders with "Yes, they're arrogant and ignorant and refuse to address their mistakes and behavior, but, well, so what?"
There is no onus on us to give them any slack. There's a long, long uphill battle before the Pod can be trusted to do the right thing. And in fact, that time may never come, unless someone new takes over the license.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 03:22:40


Post by: Dream Pod 9


Hi Rolt,

Thank you very much for being a great supporter of Heavy Gear and our first Kickstarter, its very appreciated.

Robert Dubois
President Dream Pod 9


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 04:33:32


Post by: Kelly502


I loved the game when it first came out, the larger pewter miniatures, had a blast! Played at the War Room in Clarksville Tennessee with Darrick the owner, he ran some great games. I remember a scale change, I had all the books I needed, bunch of miniatures. but our group broke up and I don't even know if I have any of it left over. I would love to play again! Great setting, love the mechs/Heavy Gears! I'm going to check out the rules and review the KS. I may actually join this....after I read the 50+ pages of hate, that may save me from my this being my first KS to join.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 04:51:21


Post by: plastictrees


I think dismissing that discussion as 50+ pages of hate is a bit ridiculous. Everyone involved is obviously invested and cares about the game and the setting.
Obviously you're never going to make everyone happy, but when thats the only discussion on a gaming forum as active as Dakka, I think it's a valid assessment of the state of the game and it's curators.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 05:40:20


Post by: Kalamadea


Meh. Years ago I decided that DP9 wouldn't get another dollar from me over the treatment of Jovian Chronicles. Fortunately they offered all the PDFs for HG Blitz for free, I had intended on using it to play with all my 1/400 Gundam Collection figures with and they kept me from having to give them any money for the rules.

Honestly, I'd be pleased if HG got proper plastics done through this KS, but I can't find any mention of whether it's hard plastic sprues or restic.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 06:00:03


Post by: Veteran Sergeant


 Dream Pod 9 wrote:
Hi Rolt,

Thank you very much for being a great supporter of Heavy Gear and our first Kickstarter, its very appreciated.

Robert Dubois
President Dream Pod 9
If you're going to get involved in the conversation on a site like this, it seems kinda silly to just ignore the obvious questions being asked here.

I mean, nobody's asking you to battle the trolls, but some kind of response to show you're not just doing a flyby might be better than nothing.


And for the record, I'm not one of the people from the other thread. I've not been involved with the Heavy Gear universe in over a decade, so I'm fairly impartial. I just clicked into here out of curiosity since I'm familiar with the setting.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 08:48:31


Post by: Splod


Aaaaand funded

Bang on $27k as of 1947 Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time on 24 October 2014.

I'm so excited.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 12:08:44


Post by: spaceelf


Dream Pod 9 certainly has a bad reputation. Although the scale change kicked their customers in the nads, there was a reason behind it. Their other decisions regarding equipment options and army building border on GW craziness. I suppose the good news is that a bad rep in the gaming community is something of a badge of honor. Lots of companies have it, GW, PP, etc.. Even Corvus Belli is working on theirs with the Cascuda event.

Despite all of this, I love their models and the setting. Further, no one is preventing me from house ruling stuff. So I will continue to enjoy Heavy Gear regardless.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 13:59:34


Post by: godswildcard


I would love to get into heavy gear, but the lack of a playing group is kind of a no go for me. Still, I hope this works out for DP9. I would love to see heavy gear played more frequently. A good ruleset and plastic minis for the two most popular factions would make that much closer to real life.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 14:07:06


Post by: Alpharius


I'm interested, I'll admit, as I love the scale and the theme but...

Many of the concerns here concern me as well.

I will sit and wait and watch, for now...


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 14:21:56


Post by: BrandonKF


33k, folks. Funded, and now Stretch Goal 1 has been unlocked. The Grizzly Fire Support Gear, the Northern equivalent of the Southern Spitting Cobra, is now on the table.

Gear up!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 14:42:31


Post by: Alpharius


 spaceelf wrote:
Dream Pod 9 certainly has a bad reputation. Although the scale change kicked their customers in the nads, there was a reason behind it. Their other decisions regarding equipment options and army building border on GW craziness. I suppose the good news is that a bad rep in the gaming community is something of a badge of honor. Lots of companies have it, GW, PP, etc.. Even Corvus Belli is working on theirs with the Cascuda event.

Despite all of this, I love their models and the setting. Further, no one is preventing me from house ruling stuff. So I will continue to enjoy Heavy Gear regardless.


What was the reason behind the scale change?

What is the new scale?

And how do we know that they won't be changing scale again?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 14:54:35


Post by: BrandonKF


The company RAFM worked up 1/87-scale Gears from 95 to 97. In 1997 the RAFM 1/87 scale was dropped for Tactical 1/144 scale.

The current Blitz scale is still 1/144, but the Blitz line was carved by Phillipe LeClerc to more fit the artwork of the game. Making 10% reduction for scouts like the Iguana and Cheetah, and 10% increases in the Grizzly and Spitting Cobra, along with the new Gearstriders.

Edit: They are maintaining the 1/144 scale because Blitz is their flagship line and so many people own older Tactical minis and also proofed them to become like Blitz models.

For those who would like visuals, I am updating this fan post of mine with more comparison shots in the future, but it should show you everything well enough for now:

http://www.swirlpost.com/2014/10/how-big-are-heavy-gear-blitz-miniatures.html?m=1


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 15:11:07


Post by: Daba


Very interested but hesitant. I also already own a North and South force, too so probably wouldn't need the new figures...


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 15:18:48


Post by: BrandonKF


That's fair Daba. There is also this:

Gear Pilot Level – THANK YOU! This reward level will allow you to show your support, see all the updates, and pick any Add-on Rewards you select. It will ship out in our 4th wave of shipping. USA and Canadian Backers pay $15 shipping costs. International Backers pay actual shipping costs.

You could wait until Wave 4 and still pick out add-on Rewards that get unlocked as Stretch goals are hit.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 15:26:53


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


That is a hell of a proposed value. The first warning alarm for me was that at their ideal "13th stretch-goal" they'll be including almost 50 models, plus a lot of extra material for about $100usd... To be able to pull that off you need to have your production fully figured out to a "t" and yet this KS doesn't even confirm what material the models will be in yet.

I want to pledge, I really do... but this thread has me gun-shy.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 15:34:32


Post by: Firebreak


A thought exercise: I'm a new wargamer. I'm tired of Warhammer, and I want to try something new. I like mechs, but MechWarrior doesn't really appeal to me, so I go looking for something new. Ooo, what's this? Heavy Gear? Sounds good. And a Kickstarter, eh? Well that'd be a good time to get in on a budding, growing game and maybe - hm? 20th anniversary edition? Old game, I guess it's be re-released for the first time in a long time. ....oh. No. It's not. I wonder what's happened in the last 20 years? I wonder why the company isn't thriving, I wonder why I've never even heard of this game until I came across this Kickstarter?

What is Mr. New Player going to find when he looks into that 20 year history?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 15:47:44


Post by: Alpharius


What scale terrain goes with 1/144?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 15:57:41


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


N-scale if you mean model-train terms.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 16:30:59


Post by: warboss


 Daba wrote:
Very interested but hesitant. I also already own a North and South force, too so probably wouldn't need the new figures...


I'm in the same boat. I've got both polar and Nucoal forces so I'm basically waiting on the fence until the Caprice stuff is unlocked by the fine folks posting in this thread at which point I'll go in for $1 plus add ons in the pledge manager phase.

 Alpharius wrote:
What scale terrain goes with 1/144?


Technically N Scale railroad stuff but DZC at 10mm works well enough with 12mm HG. There are some pics in the battle report gallery below.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-1478-36825_Hg%20Interpolar%20War%201.html

Spoiler:


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 17:38:49


Post by: Alpharius


DZC terrain looks to work quite well!

Thanks!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 17:50:41


Post by: Smilodon_UP


BrandonKF wrote:
Catyrpelius wrote:No thanks I like this forum... Plus from what I've read its more active then their own.
Crowdfunding doesn't mean that people should blindly throw money at a company that obviously isn't ready to use it.
Choice of plastic has a lot more impact to the production process then just how hard the models are. Plastic choice is going to effect a lot of things and really needs to be taken into account when the models are first sculpted. There are things you can get away with using one type of plastic that you can't get away with using another.
You haven't visited the DP9 forums then. So I can say honestly that you don't realize that the fans are asking questions and making suggestions, and the company is listening.
No, crowdfunding isn't blindly throwing your money at the company. It is an investment in the future of the company and the community. This community wants to grow.
er, I think people being allowed to have discussions about a company outside of the company's own forums is healthier in the long run for a game and it's associated setting.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 18:19:29


Post by: Alpharius


Not being sure RIGHT NOW about what the material will be, or maybe even where it is going to be made?, well, that pretty much guarantees that this one will be significantly late.

(Aside from the "duh...Kickstarter!" excuse too! )

Not that that's a huge surprise, and it probably won't put off many, especially if the 'deal is too good to pass up' level is reached...


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 20:24:31


Post by: BrandonKF


Grizzlies unlocked.
Second Stretch Goal, Spitting Cobras, unlocked!

Current level now sitting at $40k.

The current reward levels for Core Starter Set:



The current progress on the Stretch Goal tracker:




As of right now the question of what material has been addressed on the DP9 Feedback forum by several forumites, and the general thought is to look at styrene as the most probable material to be used.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 21:20:53


Post by: Sinful Hero


Styrene as "Most probable"? Doesn't sound confirmed to me.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/24 22:31:58


Post by: BrandonKF


Now standing at 44k. Do I see an Earther hovertank on the horizon?

Edit: 45,000. MHT-95s just appeared.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 02:36:41


Post by: Galen


 Alpharius wrote:

What was the reason behind the scale change?

They changed the model size when they changed the combat scale from one squad (~5 gears) per player to multiple squads, plus infantry, tanks, etc. The larger models they wanted to add to the game were prohibitively expensive in the old scale. It seems to be the natural progression of wargames to want to support larger and larger battles.

I'll be keeping an eye on this. I don`t know yet how much the nastalgia is worth.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 02:39:50


Post by: warboss


 Galen wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:

What was the reason behind the scale change?

They changed the model size when they changed the combat scale from one squad (~5 gears) per player to multiple squads, plus infantry, tanks, etc. The larger models they wanted to add to the game were prohibitively expensive in the old scale. It seems to be the natural progression of wargames to want to support larger and larger battles.

I'll be keeping an eye on this. I don`t know yet how much the nastalgia is worth.


The old RAFM gears at the larger scale were very affordable IIRC at $4-7 each. The switchover from lead to non-lead metals though may have had a hand in the decision at it occurred in the industry at that time.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 04:25:20


Post by: BrandonKF


I couldn't speculate what caused the switch from the old RAFM models, but right now the funding stands at 48,000, and I thought I would share the latest 3D render of the MHT-95. Compared to the current HT-72, the 95 will be shorter by about 11mm.

Here are some attached pics.

I also attached a historical timeline for the world for those who aren't familiar with the game's history.



[Thumb - cf1eee05feba103c710479948bd9e614_large.jpg]
[Thumb - 3b096628bef95e03d8f470457748db9b_large.jpg]
[Thumb - 45c5e859704db5c6b3783936b36f086a_large.jpg]


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 04:43:54


Post by: warboss


I'm not a fan of the new tank design as it doesn't fit the redesigned resin ones or the HHT. I'm curious if the caprice stuff will stray far from the existing versions as well.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 04:57:32


Post by: BrandonKF


If I had to wager, no. The Mounts already cover four legs and six legs. The largest was the still-unseen Orion, and that eight-legged monstrosity was from the Humanist Alliance. The Acco is great, but switching the Caprice models to plastic will definitely save a few folks' wallets from tears.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 07:41:28


Post by: Albertorius


 warboss wrote:
I'm not a fan of the new tank design as it doesn't fit the redesigned resin ones or the HHT. I'm curious if the caprice stuff will stray far from the existing versions as well.

The turret is similar, I guess. I have more of a problem with a CEF vehicle completely reliant on ammo, though.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 11:25:10


Post by: spaceelf


 warboss wrote:
 Galen wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:

What was the reason behind the scale change?

They changed the model size when they changed the combat scale from one squad (~5 gears) per player to multiple squads, plus infantry, tanks, etc. The larger models they wanted to add to the game were prohibitively expensive in the old scale. It seems to be the natural progression of wargames to want to support larger and larger battles.

I'll be keeping an eye on this. I don`t know yet how much the nastalgia is worth.


The old RAFM gears at the larger scale were very affordable IIRC at $4-7 each. The switchover from lead to non-lead metals though may have had a hand in the decision at it occurred in the industry at that time.


My understanding was that the scale change was made on account of switching from lead. Large non-lead figures were deemed too expensive.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 15:01:46


Post by: warboss


 Albertorius wrote:
 warboss wrote:
I'm not a fan of the new tank design as it doesn't fit the redesigned resin ones or the HHT. I'm curious if the caprice stuff will stray far from the existing versions as well.

The turret is similar, I guess. I have more of a problem with a CEF vehicle completely reliant on ammo, though.


That is a good point. I'm ok with the railgun seeing as how they tend to rely on V in the kinetic energy 0.5M*V^2 equation but the others seem odd. Maybe this signifies another massive fluff change and now Paxton will overtake the CEF as the energy weapon specialist?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 15:08:11


Post by: cincydooley


I didn't realize the scale change was so drastic, but I'll be frank here:

I'd have never looked at the game at that larger scale. Ever.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 15:12:19


Post by: warboss


 cincydooley wrote:
I didn't realize the scale change was so drastic, but I'll be frank here:

I'd have never looked at the game at that larger scale. Ever.


When it was at that scale, it was a tabletop companion game to the RPG so most games involved a half dozen or so max models per side and tracked individual component damage like hits to fire control systems and such. As I said above, at $4-7 per gear, it was very affordable to me on my part time college student job paycheck.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 16:03:39


Post by: BrandonKF


Well, they just passed 51,000.

So that is FLAILS being added to the Core Starter Set.

For those who need more information and background on Heavy Gear, here is a Wiki with a good deal of near-current information regarding the setting.

http://hgwiki.net/Main_Page

The wiki was made for Heavy Gear Assault, but it can help anyone interested in any one of the three endeavors.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 16:07:00


Post by: Firebreak


warboss wrote: Maybe this signifies another massive fluff change and now Paxton will overtake the CEF as the energy weapon specialist?


Please no.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 16:09:41


Post by: BrandonKF


 Firebreak wrote:
warboss wrote: Maybe this signifies another massive fluff change and now Paxton will overtake the CEF as the energy weapon specialist?


Please no.


This we do not have to worry about. Since technically speaking, a 3-5 million GREL force kind of outweighs the 40 or 50,000 the PRDF employs.

Edit: And yeah, Peace River was one city-state of only a couple hundred thousand. I am fudging somewhat in favor of outlying colonies, towns and homesteads.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/25 17:35:34


Post by: Kalamadea


For some reason this KS is getting to me, I may actully pledge for it and break my nearly decade-long boycott of DP9. Even with undoubtedly significant delays we're going to see in this KS, it looks like this may turn into a too good to pass up deal

It's not helping that there is so much other great 10mm stuff out and on the horizon, between cheap Clicky-battletech, DZC, HG, and the incoming Spartan Games Planetfall, it's becoming hard to ignore 10mm.

It's also hard to ignore all the great secondary products that exist for 10mm/ N-scale / 1/144th. Not just the DZC terrain set (which is fantastic!), somebody in the KS comments suggested the Tomytec train line, a company I'd never heard of. Tomytec makes 1/150 buildings and vehicles for modern-day, which is hard to find in american N-scale (mostly 1950s and '60s style), and it's dirt cheap if ordered from Japanese scources! There's also a lot of Gundam and not-gundam accessories and sets in 1/144th that are very expensive in 1/100 or just plain don't exist. I like 15mm sci-fi because the troopers are more detailed, but more and more stuff is coming out in 10mm and the terrain/accessories is much more affordable.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 01:55:02


Post by: Alpharius


BrandonKF wrote:
Well, they just passed 51,000.

So that is FLAILS being added to the Core Starter Set.

For those who need more information and background on Heavy Gear, here is a Wiki with a good deal of near-current information regarding the setting.

http://hgwiki.net/Main_Page

The wiki was made for Heavy Gear Assault, but it can help anyone interested in any one of the three endeavors.


Heavy Gear Assault?

Is that some other variation of the HG game?

Is it still going to be supported?

And is there a chance that a decent game comes from this KS?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 03:08:08


Post by: Firebreak


Heavy Gear Assault is an online multiplayer arena-based game that may or may not ever actually launch, though it's well into alpha testing at the moment. It was plagued by a (two) failed kickstarters, one of which had ridiculous, unreasonable goals and next to no information. Dream Pod 9's marketing guy left to go help things with Heavy Gear Assault, and it's helped, but the Pod has suffered for it.

So there will, potentially, be three seperate companies making Heavy Gear games. The tabletop wargame made by Dream Pod 9, the tabletop RGP made by Arkrite, and the computer game made by.... is it StompyBot? MekTek? What are they calling themselves at this point? Anyway, for those of us keeping score at home, the new RPG will actually be the third (or technically fourth) version of the lore. There was Heavy Gear 2, later retconned to be a dramatic retelling of events. There were the Storyline books, which continued past HG2 but were mostly ignored after a certain point in future work. There's Blitz!, which has been a stop-start mess with several semi-abortive attempts at the War for Terra Nova. And now the RPG, which apparently will reset things back in time, as well as alter things.

Outside of that, there's the TV show, which was also turned into an "extreme reality TV show" in-setting, and who knows how or where Heavy Gear Assault will fit in?

As to this Kick starter producing a good game? Who knows. It's attracting money like flies to a meat plant - for now. But that doesn't mean the money will get used well, or to produce anything better than what's come out in the past few years.

More importantly, there's no guarantee that whatever DOES come of this KS, will last or be supported for more than a year or two before the next change.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 04:48:00


Post by: Breotan


 Firebreak wrote:
As to this Kick starter producing a good game? Who knows. It's attracting money like flies to a meat plant - for now. But that doesn't mean the money will get used well, or to produce anything better than what's come out in the past few years.

More importantly, there's no guarantee that whatever DOES come of this KS, will last or be supported for more than a year or two before the next change.
I thought they were just making figures for Blitz! Has anyone played it? How is it as far as a miniatures game?



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 04:58:43


Post by: Firebreak


Breotan wrote:I thought they were just making figures for Blitz! Has anyone played it? How is it as far as a miniatures game?



That remains to be seen. This KS is just for models, but they launched it in the middle of trying to make a new rules set. Which has kind of been backburner'd in favour of plastics, with the suggestion that, if this is successful, they'll make the rules after, possibly with another KS.

As to the game in it's current state..... there's a lot of discussion here and on Dream Pod 9's forum. Best to make your own judgements.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 05:07:52


Post by: warboss


 Breotan wrote:
 Firebreak wrote:
As to this Kick starter producing a good game? Who knows. It's attracting money like flies to a meat plant - for now. But that doesn't mean the money will get used well, or to produce anything better than what's come out in the past few years.

More importantly, there's no guarantee that whatever DOES come of this KS, will last or be supported for more than a year or two before the next change.
I thought they were just making figures for Blitz! Has anyone played it? How is it as far as a miniatures game?



http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/133719/Heavy-Gear-Blitz-Tabletop-Wargaming--Beta-Rules?filters=0_0_10108_0_0

It's in beta and going through roughly monthly changes (although I think that is slowing down now to every 3 months). It has some issues but as stated above it is probably best to make your own opinion about it since the download is free.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 12:03:24


Post by: Alpharius


Had no idea the rules were available for free - thanks!

So, Blitz! is the main game here, with support going forward?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 12:16:47


Post by: BrandonKF


That is correct, Alpharius.

With new players the open Beta can be fully fleshed out, and more importantly, played so that the final rulebook can be completed with options for tactics that folks can easily grasp. Trying to cut off some of the ties that Blitz held with the original RPG, so to speak.

While Heavy Gears are the 'bread-and-butter' of the game setting, the game is really trying to encompass it's combined arms aspect as well.

The new army building rules were shared in a recent update here:



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 13:20:02


Post by: Firebreak


 Alpharius wrote:
Had no idea the rules were available for free - thanks!

So, Blitz! is the main game here, with support going forward?


That's..... part of the core issue, here. Support going forward. In the past decade, Dream Pod 9 has shown an extreme reluctance to stick to anything for longer than two years.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 17:22:24


Post by: Alpharius


So very much like Spartan Games then?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 19:49:29


Post by: HudsonD


Yeah, except Spartan has improved a lot in the last 4 years, when DP9 hasn't in 8 years. So, not like Spartan, I guess.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 20:14:42


Post by: Alpharius


So Spartan has curbed their tendency to move on from previous game systems for new ones and now continues to actively support their older ones now?

This is great news!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 22:11:02


Post by: warboss


 Alpharius wrote:
So Spartan has curbed their tendency to move on from previous game systems for new ones and now continues to actively support their older ones now?

This is great news!


Didn't they just release their new version of the space ship game this year? And they're planning on the totally not 40k epic armageddon game later this year or early next? Spartan seems to move onto different games which is admittedly annoying when you don't get the support the previous ones need. DP9, on the other hand, reboots their only game every 2-3 years making your purchases relatively worthless as well as sprinkling in dead end games they don't plan on supporting with physical products like Arena and Rally.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/26 22:15:54


Post by: Firebreak


 Alpharius wrote:
So Spartan has curbed their tendency to move on from previous game systems for new ones and now continues to actively support their older ones now?

This is great news!

Don't know anything about Spartan, but DP9's problem has more been moving halfway to a new system, and then abandoning that to move halfway to ANOTHER system. (When it's all still the same game, just with different tweaks. There hasn't been a proper, new "edition" of the game in a long time, just stop-gap measures and bandaids.) While they have abandoned games, it's been more of a slow decline, than actually stopping anything outright. (Arena and Badlands Rally not withstanding, which they all but immediately ignored after debuting.) The other problem with DP9's "support" is that they are very much only interested in the next cool thing. There are two specific factions which regularly get ridiculous tweaks and additions, because they are the designer(s)' favourite(s).

The OTHER other problem, in extremely short though discussed at length elsewhere http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570123.page, is one of communication.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 02:23:11


Post by: BrandonKF


The rules as they currently stand in Beta are rough. That's why the community needs a wider fan base. You cannot expect the older generation of gamers to reliably deliver a product that the younger generation is going to necessarily want.

I look at it like this. The older Blitz rules were an attempt by the company to deliver a faster, more streamlined game that still used the older, more established fan base's RPG rules, or at least a facsimile of them.

The company also introduced newer, larger hovertanks at that time, the HT-68 and HT-72, and then proceeded to retcon in so that the smaller pewter HT-68 and HT-72 models would count instead as LHT-67s and LHT-71s. Again, pandering to the older fan base and not alienating them for their status.

The company then delivered Locked and Loaded after the original Blitz rules were gone over extensively by a determined few individuals.

Locked and Loaded was a rather good core rulebook overall, but it suffered in the fact that it offered several ideas that not everyone agreed with. Priority Levels being one of those. Morale rules were also questionable. There was also some questions about how the army-building was set up, since there were some variants that were possible with the construction rules that were not foreseen (like a Ferret Mark 2 scout being able to carry a Medium Rifle).

While the errata for the rules was ongoing, the company continued with progressing the storyline in Return to Cat's Eye, jumping over a large timeframe of nearly 10-12 cycles (the Terranovan equivalent of a year, only made up for 4 seasons with 36-hour days), and introduced the new CEF, the Caprice Mounts, and the Black Talons.

This was the book that set up the story for what we now call the War for Terra Nova.

It also brought a lot of questions from the fanbase, since the Black Talons were considered OP due to the Stealth mechanic, and often enough they ended up being just that in tabletop games.

The company then released a series of smaller booklets, including Operation Drop Bears Dive (which introduced the Koala and the Dingo), and then also introduced two smaller 'campaign' books intended to follow the opening days and weeks of the War, and also introducing the Golems and the Utopian forces.

Arena was a one-off that has a small, dedicated following, but the larger portion of the fanbase may or may not have been too keen on the idea. Badlands Rally was this as well, but it was also a test for some of the ideas presented in the 5th Edition Alpha when it came out.

The next cool thing, as it turns out, is often what drives a company's sales. Let's not get this twisted, Infinity players have been waiting for some miniatures for nearly a decade, while the Heavy Gear universe is pretty much well fleshed out with very few new armies to present to anyone because the company has constantly remanded itself to the dedicated fanbase and tried to keep all the older folks who stuck with them happy (even if the older fanbase may not always welcome the changes that occur).

The Beta is rough, but it is free, and it will be worked on. It is cutting its last ties with the RPG side of things.

Right now Mr. Dubois and Dave both are answering questions and comments by others on the Kickstarter as often as possible, and other fans are chiming in with information as they feel necessary.

This Kickstarter can present folks with that opportunity to get into the game and support the company transitioning over to plastic, but more importantly it is an opportunity for newcomers to join the game for a pittance.

Let's consider the reward levels you can select from:

$65 - Army Set - You don't have to wait until it gets unlocked. You can pledge the $65 by going into the Reward Levels, choosing $1, then use the Fundafull calculator for your shipping costs (in Canadian dollars, so exchange rates vary), and then pledge that amount and wait for the Stretch Goal to unlock. Once the Reward is posted, all you have to do is go to 'Manage Your Pledge' and pick the appropriate Reward.

$80 - Basic Set - 16 miniatures. Not many go this route, but if you're stretched and you want a pairing of the four 4-Gear cadres/squadrons that make up the North and South for introduction games, or even as a gift, it's not a bad deal.

$115 - Core Set - Of course, the full Monte here. We're already looking at the original 16 miniatures, 2 Grizzlies, 2 Spitting Cobras, 2 Iguanas, 2 MHT-95s, and 2 FLAIL squads. If you and a friend want to, you can chip in 75 each (the $115 goes up another $15 for shipping costs, so I dumped an extra $17 into my Pledge, and I'm planning on saving in the later days of November so it rolls through smoothly in my account), and split the forces between yourselves.

$350 - The basic retailer set isn't a bad deal either. You get 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set. $80 each normally. Just providing proof of brick and mortar set-up by taking a picture of your storefront and getting in touch with Mr. Dubois or Dave. US and Canadian stores have the shipping included in the cost of $350, but for the international fronts they'll get hit pretty hard.

$500 - For the storefronts who want free shipping. The entire Core Starter Set plus Stretch Goals, plus $385 worth of add-on rewards you can choose from.



One of the bigger bonuses of Pledging right now is not only does it give the Kickstarter more facetime, but it also Unlocks all the Stretch Goals you know are in line waiting. You already know what you're getting with this. There isn't any wait time for seeing what comes next, you already know it's there.

The only real uncertainty is if we pass the $170,000 mark and the weapons sprue. What then? Truly I do not even know if Mr. Dubois or Dave considered this, but if the hardcore backers and newcomers can raise just over $60,000 in 4 days, what happens when everyone puts a little more into the pot?

Yes, communication was a problem before. But the men on the other end of this Kickstarter are responding as rapidly as they feasibly can, and there is a lot to look forward to if you join in.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 02:51:36


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 Sinful Hero wrote:
Styrene as "Most probable"? Doesn't sound confirmed to me.
RJVF wrote:
I can't see them funding that much tool and die making and running profitable production runs with those numbers.
A production run of a 1000 is not a big one for any injection shop, so its not like DP9 will be a priority customer unless its a very small shop.


- from Facebook:
David McLeod
It will be a hard plastic, the decision of what one exactly will be made when we know as the molds are getting finalized. It has to be rigid enough to hold the detail but soft enough not to be brittle.
October 23 at 6:07pm
Dream Pod 9, Inc.
We are still investigating the many options available to us and want to make sure the models retain the basic shape they are cast in. So we believe that one of the harder types of plastics like styrene will be the best choice.
Yesterday at 12:27pm



Strangely enough the Kickstarter notice Dave posted to BoardGameGeek seems to have been removed, and it doesn't come up on a Google search any more.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 03:00:51


Post by: BrandonKF




Here's an update for the current Pledge level.

And here's Update #19:

"Tonight we are previewing the newly designed Heavy Gear Backer 2014 Patch, which is a free reward included in all Basic Starter Sets, Core Starter Sets, and Army Sets. The talented guys over at Arkrite Press helped design the patch. Arkrite Press is expanding the Heavy Gear Universe through novels and an upcoming new edition of the roleplaying game.
For more information about Arkrite Press and their work on Heavy Gear Universe, check out their facebook page at:

https://www.facebook.com/HeavyGearUniverse"


And Update #20 for the Stretch Goal #6:



"EW = Electronic Warfare: The use of forward observation for artillery assets and jamming of enemy critical communications and sensor assets that hinders your opponent's ability to prosecute an action. Also known as "that which you shall not forget in the Gear hanger". Recon gears in Heavy Gear pack powerful equipment that make them masters of co-ordination of indirect fire attacks and able to provide protection from enemy sensors, vastly improving your force's survival in the face of enemy attacks. Commanders rarely mount up in a recon Gear due to the challenges of coordinating troopers under their command while prosecuting EW. More often recon units are led by a commander using an advanced Gear such as a Thunder Jaguar or Razorfang Black Mamba command variant."

[Thumb - Heavy-Gear-Backer-2014.png]


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 11:20:44


Post by: riker2800


Only 1311$ for stretch goal#6, let's get this one today!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 12:29:25


Post by: BrandonKF


$62,175. The Goal is close.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 12:59:57


Post by: Zond


I like the Heavy Gear models and I could easily use them with say... Tomorrow's War if DP9 are still guff. Very hesitant at the should be, may be, hopefully be material issue however.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 13:47:29


Post by: Alpharius


Do you find you have a group at your FLGS that will play "Tomorrow's War", or are you lucky enough to have a Gaming Group?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 14:24:07


Post by: Zond


Lucky enough that all my close friends are into wargaming or some aspect of it, and we sometimes use Tomorrow's War with Epic or 40k figures, so if material is confirmed it's a strong option.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 16:01:33


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 Rolt wrote:
any info to help potential backers make an informed purchase is always welcome, like any kickstarter everyone should do their best to know fully who and what they're getting into we don't need more KS related burns.
Zond wrote:
[...]so if material is confirmed it's a strong option.
er, ...Although finally the material issue seems to have been decided, or at least for the moment, it would seem once again that giving any feedback, or saying anything, other than in the vein of "Wow, what a great idea." or "Everything is awesome." is absolutely not welcomed.

Creator Dream Pod 9 about 1 hour ago
Thank you everyone for posting on the different forums, blogs, and other websites. Keep on posting and getting the word out, we know that forums can be rough sometimes, there are some haters out there. But there are also lots of potential Backers that have valid questions, point them towards the Kickstarter. Keep posting the updates, don't let any comments on forums discourage you, and know that we really appreciate all your help.

To the best of my knowledge, there are very few if any people who hate the setting, it's the rules and the company that are disliked.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 16:15:52


Post by: mrondeau


Creator Dream Pod 9 about 1 hour ago
... there are some haters out there.

This is the fundamental problem with DP9. I have seen it in private conversation with them too.
To them, criticism is not motivated by a desire to improve the game or fix a problem. It is motivated by a desire to complain.
If they get a lot of criticism from one person, it's not because that person cares about the game and wants it to improve, it's because that person hates them and the game, and wants it to fail.
They do everything they can to block negative feedback. Their playtest procedure, for example, is designed to marginalize and ignore negative feedback.

TL;DR:
"Hater gotta hate" is one of the most stupid, counter-productive expression ever, and anyone who uses it while doing any form of quality control is utterly incompetent and should be fired immediately.

PS:
The fact that Dream Pod 9 did not bother posting here again, despite their exhortation to their fans to keep doing so, is also telling.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 16:31:13


Post by: Zond


I just noticed that this will be shipped to the UK and distributed by Wayland Games. I'm not a fan of Wayland so this might be a dealbreaker along with the shipping costs. I'll keep watching it anyway.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 16:39:42


Post by: DP9Dave


We (Dream Pod 9) have confirmed that the csating material will be styrene.

Some peoplel still prefer the old rules, and they are welcome to continue using them, we have made the old rule books available for free PDF download especially for the background that they include. The new rules will be in a free beta living rulebook format for a while as we iron out the issues with the rules. Anyone who is willing to participate is welcome as long as it is respectful and constructive.

And @Smilodon, my title is "Heavy Gear Line Developer, Rules Designer, and Production Manager at Dream Pod 9". The issues with the North book were regrettable but both sides could have communicated better and shown more patience. Hopefully some of the better concepts you explored in your preliminary work on the North Field manual can be utilized in the future. Sadly some of it was simply unfeasible to match with current production realities. I wish we could have worked this out earlier but at the time it was not possible. I wish you could have been more patient since on the whole your work was excellent. With a bit of time for everyone to cool off I hope that you will return to be a participant again, we need people with good ideas like yours.

Dream Pod 9 has had some difficulties with deadlines and communication in the past, though I think we can all agree that everyone can have a bad patch, companies included, and can emerge ready to turn things around. We have learned not to extend ourselves beyond our limitations and this Kickstarter shows that by limiting the goals to only four of the core factions.

Now back to the kickstarter:
We are about to open up the Iguana stretch goal, thanks to everyone who has backed the project for your support and for sharing on social media.
Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 17:06:25


Post by: warboss


 DP9Dave wrote:

The new rules will be in a free beta living rulebook format for a while as we iron out the issues with the rules. Anyone who is willing to participate is welcome as long as it is respectful and constructive.

*snip*

Dream Pod 9 has had some difficulties with deadlines and communication in the past, though I think we can all agree that everyone can have a bad patch, companies included, and can emerge ready to turn things around. We have learned not to extend ourselves beyond our limitations and this Kickstarter shows that by limiting the goals to only four of the core factions.


Dave, those patches for most companies don't last a full decade. In any case, I'm glad you're here and hopefully you can honestly answer some questions. I've been flat out lied to by a previous person in your position (both in person and online) so you'll have to excuse me if I'm blunt.

Will whatever rulebook that comes out be the definitive edition of the rules for at least 4-5 years? I'm not talking about expansions but rather replacements for the rules contained in it. The folks at the dp9 gencon booth flat out LIED to me when I bought original blitz and asked if they were going to replace it willy nilly like they did with the 1st edition RPG in less than two years; locked and loaded was apparently already in the plans from what I've been told since by former playtesters. I was told by the Pod at the booth that Blitz was the definitive edition for years to come and that they had learned their lesson so I came back into the HG hobby buying all the books... only to find out 6 months after the Paxton book came out that Locked and Loaded would be invalidating ALL of my recent purchases, the oldest of which was only two years from first printing. I was then told by John Buckmaster online that there would be an update PDF to help fans who were negatively affected by this, something which he later denied and later recanted when shown the exact post (since gone due to a forum software changeover). Will whatever comes out be replaced/null and void/useless in less than 4-5 years? In case you think that this is just some "hater" talking, you should be aware that the 1st edition RPG and blitz edition flip flops KILLED my local scene each time as everyone stopped buying due to disgust for the actions. The store also STOPPED carrying DP9 products as a result both times (they restarted with Blitz ONLY when the group I formed started special ordering blitz books after my gencon promise/lie).

Also, I've bolded a different portion of the post above. Previously, we were told that the rulebook would be a "living" free online download without any qualifications. Is it now only free during the beta process and will switch to a paid only download when the final product comes out?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 17:50:38


Post by: Catyrpelius


 DP9Dave wrote:
We (Dream Pod 9) have confirmed that the csating material will be styrene.

Some peoplel still prefer the old rules, and they are welcome to continue using them, we have made the old rule books available for free PDF download especially for the background that they include. The new rules will be in a free beta living rulebook format for a while as we iron out the issues with the rules. Anyone who is willing to participate is welcome as long as it is respectful and constructive.

And @Smilodon, my title is "Heavy Gear Line Developer, Rules Designer, and Production Manager at Dream Pod 9". The issues with the North book were regrettable but both sides could have communicated better and shown more patience. Hopefully some of the better concepts you explored in your preliminary work on the North Field manual can be utilized in the future. Sadly some of it was simply unfeasible to match with current production realities. I wish we could have worked this out earlier but at the time it was not possible. I wish you could have been more patient since on the whole your work was excellent. With a bit of time for everyone to cool off I hope that you will return to be a participant again, we need people with good ideas like yours.

Dream Pod 9 has had some difficulties with deadlines and communication in the past, though I think we can all agree that everyone can have a bad patch, companies included, and can emerge ready to turn things around. We have learned not to extend ourselves beyond our limitations and this Kickstarter shows that by limiting the goals to only four of the core factions.

Now back to the kickstarter:
We are about to open up the Iguana stretch goal, thanks to everyone who has backed the project for your support and for sharing on social media.
Cheers!
Dave


Styrene isn't all that descriptive... It's like saying "I'm going to build this bookcase out of wood"... Care to elaborate alittle more?

You say Styrene but it's used to make everything from rubber to red solo cups...


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 17:53:01


Post by: warboss


I don't think they'll be able to be more specific and frankly they don't need to be. The exact percentage of various chemicals doesn't need to be decided at this moment and the key clarification is made. It'll be styrene and by definition "plastic glue" will work on it. Unless you're a chemical engineer, any further detail is superfluous. Do you know the exact chemical makeup of GW plastics? How about Revell/monogram? Unlikely... you just buy them knowing that plastic glue works on them and they're easy to cut/assemble/convert. And that is coming from someone likely included under the "hater" umbrella that the Pod has made a thing.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 18:01:16


Post by: Catyrpelius


 warboss wrote:
I don't think they'll be able to be more specific and frankly they don't need to be. The exact percentage of various chemicals doesn't need to be decided at this moment and the key clarification is made. It'll be styrene and by definition "plastic glue" will work on it. Unless you're a chemical engineer, any further detail is superfluous. Do you know the exact chemical makeup of GW plastics? How about Revell/monogram? Unlikely... you just buy them knowing that plastic glue works on them and they're easy to cut/assemble/convert. And that is coming from someone likely included under the "hater" umbrella that the Pod has made a thing.


Actually I think it should be incredibly simple for them to provide and answer. It's either going to be Polystyrene or ABS... GW and Revell are a known quantity, some guy on the interenet that doesn't know what type of plastic they are going to use isn't.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 18:23:19


Post by: DP9Dave


Sure Warbass, I will answer what I can.

First, I have only anecdotal knowledge of the situation you describe having come to Heavy Gear about five years ago. Indeed most of the staff you mention are no longer with the company and have not been for some time. I don't speculate on what happened with the scale switch and the business reasons for doing so, we are now locked into the 1/144th scale which very much suits the scope and cost of the game. As a twenty year old company we have experienced a number of waves of staff, all of which have left for a variety of reasons. Right now we are stable, and though reduced in numbers we are committed to this long process of re-engagement and reestablishment of trust with our customers.

We have made efforts to smooth the transition with the rules change-over first with downgrading the last field manuals to PDFs to ensure that players were not buying full field manuals just before a rules direction change of the scale that the beta is. Dream Pod 9, like every company out there now, is learning to deal with the new reality of instant information, instant feedback and the increased pace of development. Even the switch to the kickstarter model, while still respecting the brick and mortar stores that are the front line of miniature gaming, is a delicate balance to make.

We know that the beta rules will be updated several times before they can be locked down as the definitive core rules of the game. We are planning to maintain a Black and White PDF of the rules as a free download going into the future since this is becoming the industry standard. We are a company that sells miniatures and we want players to be able to access the most current rules through all the different formats without having lug a number of books/FAQ/Errata/updates to lug around and sort through.

Once the beta rules have undergone some more revisions it will depend on the reception and demand for a locked down version to be printed and even then there are reasons to offer a print on demand service for those who appreciate a paper copy. The simple fact is that doing all the work to lay out a book costs money and time which we would rather spend on artists, sculptors, and development. A living rule book allows us to make changes and save on those layout costs for multiple books.

We fully expect the Beta rules to remain Beta until the completion stage of this kickstarter and only then be available in a locked format PDF with all the factions represented. When it comes to published material there are several formats such as the Art of Heavy Gear books on special right now on DrivethroughRPG.com, and story line books. In other words we are looking at a number of solutions and will be surveying our customers to see what will work the best. We would rather produce a regular e-book or e-magazine of support material once or twice a year than a paper field manual that won't be able to be renewed again until after another rules cycle in 4-7 years. Never mind the risks the company takes printing large numbers of paper books in order to get the price down.

I think players themselves are more interested in spending the money on the models than the rules over and over again, regardless of what system you play. If we decide to move to a business model with a premium 'pay to download' e-book that includes all the background, and the free rules-only living rule book with a minimum of fluff then the players will have a choice. Players who want the current story included would only pay for the book once for a premium version and then future updates to the story line could be included with an update to the PDF. This will depend on the demand. Arkrite press will be producing lots of material for background through their focus on the RPG side of things. DP9 rules focus on the tactical combat level of detail and the supporting material will reflect that in what we publish.

So I'm sorry for your experiences in the past and I understand that you are cautious. My experience in the gaming industry has been on the retail side of things as both a floor employee and on the management side. I have over 15 years of experience helping with play tests and being a highly successful player of miniature games. I bring a lot of customer service experience to Dream Pod 9 and now have a lot of pull in helping determine the pace and direction of the rules. I understand that open communication with our customers is really important and that the era of the ivory tower of game designers is over. The quality of games is ever increasing and the gaming culture of the future will involve a very interactive approach involving a lot of participation directly with the players. This kind collaboration will become the norm for games that require a lot of high value components and you can see with the board game companies including players in designing updates the face of things to come. It doesn't mean that the executive decisions will by made by the customers but that the player experiences can now be directly transmitted to the designers who can grapple with the questions and lead a discussion in real time. I can clearly point to several examples in the HGB beta rules where player involvement has directly changed a rules for the better, and some cases where player responses have resulted in better presented rules or terminology.

Determining how much time is required for these discussions to happen will be a balancing act which we are learning about too. One thing is for certain is that there are almost 500 backers to the kickstarter who are now involved with the game and will be participants in the future of Heavy Gear. So go ahead and point out where we've failed in the past, we can't do anything about that but try to improve for the future. So I leave it to the players to choose if you want to support or not.

Thanks for the opportunity to start this discussion.

And to recap:
Living free B&W beta rule book format is confirmed.
Possible premium core rule book with fluff based on interest.
Dream Pod 9, inc, is adapting and learning.
The Kickstarter very much a success and improving all the time.

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also once we have some samples of the Styrene that will be used for the models we will be able to post an update detailing the qualities of it to our backers.

Thanks!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iguana is unlocked!



Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 19:02:31


Post by: Firebreak


 DP9Dave wrote:
the era of the ivory tower of game designers is over


It is! And I think I speak for all of us when I say it's nice that you've left yours, to come and speak openly on a forum where you can't lock, prune, and delete threads and questions not to your liking. It's a very good first step towards reestablishing some of the community's trust in Dream Pod 9, and I, for one, thank you for it.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 19:11:16


Post by: yamato


looking forward to seeing the plastic sample,.... a video of how it reacts to bending, cutting, sanding, etc, would really help bring fence sitters in.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 19:48:24


Post by: Twelvecarpileup


@DP9Dave

Quick question, which might be a bit of a newbie question...

Is there any plans of a skirmish based version of Heavy Gear? Like 8-9 models instead of units?

Was the original Heavy Gear rules like this? (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/979/Heavy-Gear-Miniature-Rules-2nd-Edition?it=1)

Love the art design/world. It's just that the Blitz rules are pretty much unplayable (sorry).


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 19:53:35


Post by: BrandonKF


Newbie questions are good. Welcome!

Dave answered this in a DP9 blog post concerning the vision for the Beta earlier this month. The current Beta rules are aimed primarily to be played with 4-20 models.

Link to the design manifesto here:
http://dp9.com/content/design-manifesto

The one you see there is an older version of what we call Heavy Gear Tactical edition, a companion to the RPG.

Here is the download link for the Beta:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/133719/Heavy-Gear-Blitz-Tabletop-Wargaming--Beta-Rules?term=heavy+gear+beta


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 19:57:45


Post by: Twelvecarpileup


I've read over most of the Beta rules. I guess specifically what I'm looking for is a ruleset that doesn't require squads of units when building an army.

I know it can be played with a couple squads to make it 8 units, but what I'm looking more for is being able to build up my army purchasing individual models/upgrades in game, rather then one or two squads.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 20:02:17


Post by: DP9Dave


We won't finalize the exact composition of styrene until we can get some samples from the company we are planning to use for our casting. We have to see our molds in action to see how the detail stands up. We know the tolerances very well for the 3D printing so it's just getting the best material for the task. If there is any question about which is the best styrene material to use then we will be going to our backers with an update and a reason for the decision. For example most people expect grey styrene from their familiarity with Games Workshop products but Styrene is not naturally Grey, it is a colorless plastic that has additives. Our manufacturer has experience with casting plastic styrene model airplane kits with high tolerance details and we will be using their recommendation about material choice to maximize quality.

Cheers!
Dave




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Twelvecarpileup wrote:
I've read over most of the Beta rules. I guess specifically what I'm looking for is a ruleset that doesn't require squads of units when building an army.

I know it can be played with a couple squads to make it 8 units, but what I'm looking more for is being able to build up my army purchasing individual models/upgrades in game, rather then one or two squads.


In small games there is no reason to limit players. There is a mod some players are working on to use the rules as written to play Heavy Gear Arena just with every model being a solo model using the duelist upgrades. Take 4 models a size with ~20TV to spend per model and play for fun.

The army is built out of individual models organized into units. There are no 'units' to buy, only an organizational pattern to follow. If you buy a single model that does not fit with any of your existing squads you can always attach it to a unit as a single model support units whose Unit Availability rating does not have to match the rating of the attached unit. So you could choose a primary unit of four Hunter Gears with a variety of variants as a GP unit and then attach a single Cheetah for EW support, or a Grizzly for firepower as Recon or Fire Support units respectively (or both as a dragoon squad). The limit is that you can't put a third action in to the support unit until the primary unit it is attached to has five or six actions worth of models.

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks, I will check back in every day if you have questions.

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 20:41:45


Post by: Zond


That was a very interesting post. As a UK gamer I don't remember Heavy Gear being big over here, and I was only aware of the issues surrounding DP9 thanks to the interwebs.

I applaud your open and frank discussion on the issues raised, and the sexy picture of an Iguana doesn't hurt. I do hope that many of these promises are followed through on. Some of the kickstarter comments are decidedly more in the Palladium leaning, which isn't a good thing. However your communication is already a million times better thus far. I'm not a backer, not sure I will be, but I'm now watching with a lot of interest.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/27 23:21:26


Post by: BrandonKF


The 500th Backer arrives, and the Kickstarter passed up $66,000. The Stretch Goal for the Iguana was unlocked. Here follows the next, the Earth's F6-16 Frame:





Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 00:01:17


Post by: Alpharius


That's lightly armored?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 00:19:04


Post by: Fix


It's paper mache.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 00:28:10


Post by: BrandonKF


Lighter alloys than the durasheet of Terra Nova Northern Gears and the ceramics used in Southern Gears, the Earth Frames are hover capable, hence the need for less armor to keep themselves capable of matching their hovertanks.

"After their failed invasion of Terra Nova, what the 'Novans referred to as 'the War of the Alliance', the Earth's Eighth Fleet returned crippled and battered to their bases on the hub world of Caprice. Generals and dignitaries alike all agreed that the ferocity of the 'Novan defenses was coupled with the ingenious use of the cheap but reliable Heavy Gears. Scientists, technicians and engineers immediately began taking apart and re-engineering parts of Gears that had been taken during the war, and they were finally able to employ a humanoid armored combat vehicle that was dubbed 'the Frame'.

The original F6-16 Frame was the prototype on which all other Frames would follow, and it is almost always assigned to a human pilot, although recent indoctrination of sub-specialized GREL pilots have begun to fill the ranks with this frighteningly fast war machine. The Frame itself is also employed by front-line commanders for command-and-control, and as an electronic warfare platform."

And a total overview of everything so far:



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 03:09:33


Post by: Firebreak


Fix wrote:
It's paper mache.


Paper meche.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 03:19:53


Post by: Smilodon_UP


mrondeau wrote:
Creator Dream Pod 9 about 1 hour ago
... there are some haters out there.
This is the fundamental problem with DP9. I have seen it in private conversation with them too.
To them, criticism is not motivated by a desire to improve the game or fix a problem. It is motivated by a desire to complain.
If they get a lot of criticism from one person, it's not because that person cares about the game and wants it to improve, it's because that person hates them and the game, and wants it to fail.
I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more of an attempt at spin control for Robert's "hater" message.
Who does something like that in the middle of a campaign exhorting folks to pledge money to the company they represent.


 DP9Dave wrote:
One thing is for certain is that there are almost 500 backers to the kickstarter who are now involved with the game and will be participants in the future of Heavy Gear.
Zond wrote:
Lucky enough that all my close friends are into wargaming or some aspect of it, and we sometimes use Tomorrow's War with Epic or 40k figures, so if material is confirmed it's a strong option.
A point many of us keep trying to make is that no, the number of backers is not a guarantee that the people pledging will use the NuBlitz ruleset to game, will be able to find anyone willing to play, will join the forum community, or will even use the models beyond display/collection purposes.
Additional sales from the store-front by the backers after the KS is not a certain thing either.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 13:17:27


Post by: godswildcard


I'm starting to wear down here. I actually enjoyed my time with HGB!, and I liked being able to take the easy route (focusing on combat) or to go hard core with rules like EW and inertia.

That is an awful lot of models to get for $115, regardless of how long it takes them to ship it. Hell, if they make it to $75,000 CAD, you'll have a decent little earth force to go along with your northern and Southern forces.

I'm not really very kickstarter-savvy. I know I will be moving in less than a year. Can I change my shipping address after I've backed the kickstarter?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 13:39:46


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Whether you can change your address would all be down to the company running the project

KS lets them send out a single survey, but they can choose when to do so,

and most sensible companies also get in touch close to when shipping is going to happen just to make sure everybody has an up to date address


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 14:44:07


Post by: Alpharius


Does anyone know if these minis will have integrated bases?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 15:12:21


Post by: warboss


Thanks for the response, Dave. I sincerely hope it ends up a more accurate description of the future than when I heard largely the same thing from the person in your shoes with the advent of Blitz. I'm glad to hear that the rules will always be a free PDF and have no problem with a more fluff filled premium version being offered for sale.

Spoiler:
 DP9Dave wrote:
Sure Warbass, I will answer what I can.

First, I have only anecdotal knowledge of the situation you describe having come to Heavy Gear about five years ago. Indeed most of the staff you mention are no longer with the company and have not been for some time. I don't speculate on what happened with the scale switch and the business reasons for doing so, we are now locked into the 1/144th scale which very much suits the scope and cost of the game. As a twenty year old company we have experienced a number of waves of staff, all of which have left for a variety of reasons. Right now we are stable, and though reduced in numbers we are committed to this long process of re-engagement and reestablishment of trust with our customers.

We have made efforts to smooth the transition with the rules change-over first with downgrading the last field manuals to PDFs to ensure that players were not buying full field manuals just before a rules direction change of the scale that the beta is. Dream Pod 9, like every company out there now, is learning to deal with the new reality of instant information, instant feedback and the increased pace of development. Even the switch to the kickstarter model, while still respecting the brick and mortar stores that are the front line of miniature gaming, is a delicate balance to make.

We know that the beta rules will be updated several times before they can be locked down as the definitive core rules of the game. We are planning to maintain a Black and White PDF of the rules as a free download going into the future since this is becoming the industry standard. We are a company that sells miniatures and we want players to be able to access the most current rules through all the different formats without having lug a number of books/FAQ/Errata/updates to lug around and sort through.

Once the beta rules have undergone some more revisions it will depend on the reception and demand for a locked down version to be printed and even then there are reasons to offer a print on demand service for those who appreciate a paper copy. The simple fact is that doing all the work to lay out a book costs money and time which we would rather spend on artists, sculptors, and development. A living rule book allows us to make changes and save on those layout costs for multiple books.

We fully expect the Beta rules to remain Beta until the completion stage of this kickstarter and only then be available in a locked format PDF with all the factions represented. When it comes to published material there are several formats such as the Art of Heavy Gear books on special right now on DrivethroughRPG.com, and story line books. In other words we are looking at a number of solutions and will be surveying our customers to see what will work the best. We would rather produce a regular e-book or e-magazine of support material once or twice a year than a paper field manual that won't be able to be renewed again until after another rules cycle in 4-7 years. Never mind the risks the company takes printing large numbers of paper books in order to get the price down.

I think players themselves are more interested in spending the money on the models than the rules over and over again, regardless of what system you play. If we decide to move to a business model with a premium 'pay to download' e-book that includes all the background, and the free rules-only living rule book with a minimum of fluff then the players will have a choice. Players who want the current story included would only pay for the book once for a premium version and then future updates to the story line could be included with an update to the PDF. This will depend on the demand. Arkrite press will be producing lots of material for background through their focus on the RPG side of things. DP9 rules focus on the tactical combat level of detail and the supporting material will reflect that in what we publish.

So I'm sorry for your experiences in the past and I understand that you are cautious. My experience in the gaming industry has been on the retail side of things as both a floor employee and on the management side. I have over 15 years of experience helping with play tests and being a highly successful player of miniature games. I bring a lot of customer service experience to Dream Pod 9 and now have a lot of pull in helping determine the pace and direction of the rules. I understand that open communication with our customers is really important and that the era of the ivory tower of game designers is over. The quality of games is ever increasing and the gaming culture of the future will involve a very interactive approach involving a lot of participation directly with the players. This kind collaboration will become the norm for games that require a lot of high value components and you can see with the board game companies including players in designing updates the face of things to come. It doesn't mean that the executive decisions will by made by the customers but that the player experiences can now be directly transmitted to the designers who can grapple with the questions and lead a discussion in real time. I can clearly point to several examples in the HGB beta rules where player involvement has directly changed a rules for the better, and some cases where player responses have resulted in better presented rules or terminology.

Determining how much time is required for these discussions to happen will be a balancing act which we are learning about too. One thing is for certain is that there are almost 500 backers to the kickstarter who are now involved with the game and will be participants in the future of Heavy Gear. So go ahead and point out where we've failed in the past, we can't do anything about that but try to improve for the future. So I leave it to the players to choose if you want to support or not.

Thanks for the opportunity to start this discussion.

And to recap:
Living free B&W beta rule book format is confirmed.
Possible premium core rule book with fluff based on interest.
Dream Pod 9, inc, is adapting and learning.
The Kickstarter very much a success and improving all the time.

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also once we have some samples of the Styrene that will be used for the models we will be able to post an update detailing the qualities of it to our backers.

Thanks!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iguana is unlocked!



Cheers!
Dave



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Does anyone know if these minis will have integrated bases?


The current metals are slotta style bases and minis but I'd assume that would change with the switch over to plastics. Dave would probably be the best person to answer that. I would say, though, that I'd strongly prefer to have separate bases and flat "feet" on the minis without any tongue in grove insertions personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Smilodon_UP wrote:


ferrous wrote:
Gee, I'm a new player, I wonder which one I should pick up?
As opposed to:
Heavy Gear Tactical [1998]
[Heavy Gear Tactical Miniature Rules (2001)]
[Heavy Gear Silhouette Core Miniature Rules (2005)]
Heavy Gear Blitz [2006]
Heavy Gear Blitz Locked and Loaded [2008]
Heavy Gear Blitz Field Manual [2011]
[Heavy Gear Blitz Beta (2014)]





Shouldn't that list also include the 1st and second editions of the RPG since they had the fully functional and independent minis rules as a section in the back of the books? We tried the RPG for a bit but usually ended up playing the minis game only in our group. If so, the edition cycle DP9 has had for the miniatures portion of Heavy Gear is:

Heavy Gear RPG 1st Ed [1995]
Heavy Gear RPG 2nd Ed [1997]
Heavy Gear Tactical [1998]
[Heavy Gear Tactical Miniature Rules (2001)]
[Heavy Gear Silhouette Core Miniature Rules (2005)]
Heavy Gear Blitz [2006]
Heavy Gear Blitz Locked and Loaded [2008]
Heavy Gear Blitz Field Manual [2011]
Heavy Gear Blitz Alpha/Beta/KS edition (2013/2014/2015)

So... 9 editions in 20 years...and that is considering the "alpha" and "beta" and "Kickstarter" rules releases as a single evolving conglomerate edition. I knew it was alot but I don't think I've ever seen it listed year by year. I guess it is a good thing I missed the period between 1997 and 2006 specifically because of the 2nd edition RPG flip flop.

Albertorius, when you say you play the older rules, which particular set do you mean?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
That's lightly armored?


It is if the next step up in combat vehicles is a full on tank.


And it looks like on my daily check of the KS that folks are one average pledge away from the frames. Brandon needs some target practice, people! He can't just shoot at southerners all day!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 16:14:06


Post by: Twelvecarpileup


I really appreciated Dave's well thought out replies on this thread.

As someone who's tried to get into Heavy Gear in the past, and left due to frustration I'm willing to take a chance on this game once more. I've pledged and am interested in seeing how this develops.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 16:37:30


Post by: BrandonKF


warboss wrote:
The current metals are slotta style bases and minis but I'd assume that would change with the switch over to plastics. Dave would probably be the best person to answer that. I would say, though, that I'd strongly prefer to have separate bases and flat "feet" on the minis without any tongue in grove insertions personally.


A good question to ask warboss.

And it looks like on my daily check of the KS that folks are one average pledge away from the frames. Brandon needs some target practice, people! He can't just shoot at southerners all day!


Twelvecarpileup wrote:I really appreciated Dave's well thought out replies on this thread.

As someone who's tried to get into Heavy Gear in the past, and left due to frustration I'm willing to take a chance on this game once more. I've pledged and am interested in seeing how this develops.


You guys...

F6-16 has landed!

THANK YOU!

"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me!"


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 17:02:42


Post by: DP9Dave


With regards to the bases we explored the idea of casting the bases with the miniatures but the mold real estate was better used on more weapon or pose options so we are going for the traditional black plastic bases on the side sorted into a baggie. We will get flat topped bases if required through the decision to include tabs or not is yet to be made as we are too early in the layout for the 3D models we have. Naturally some poses like a one leg standing pose is easier with a tab for gluing purposes.

Once we know these details there will be an update confirming them but in the mean time we won't speculate just to make noise.

We have more than enough to make noise about already.

Cheers!
Dave



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/28 19:20:02


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 warbass wrote:
 Smilodon_UP wrote:
ferrous wrote:
Spoiler:
Gee, I'm a new player, I wonder which one I should pick up?
As opposed to:
Heavy Gear Tactical [1998]
[Heavy Gear Tactical Miniature Rules (2001)]
[Heavy Gear Silhouette Core Miniature Rules (2005)]
Heavy Gear Blitz [2006]
Heavy Gear Blitz Locked and Loaded [2008]
Heavy Gear Blitz Field Manual [2011]
[Heavy Gear Blitz Beta (2014)]
Shouldn't that list also include the 1st and second editions of the RPG since they had the fully functional and independent minis rules as a section in the back of the books? We tried the RPG for a bit but usually ended up playing the minis game only in our group. If so, the edition cycle DP9 has had for the miniatures portion of Heavy Gear is:

Spoiler:
Heavy Gear RPG 1st Ed [1995]
Heavy Gear RPG 2nd Ed [1997]
Heavy Gear Tactical [1998]
[Heavy Gear Tactical Miniature Rules (2001)]
[Heavy Gear Silhouette Core Miniature Rules (2005)]
Heavy Gear Blitz [2006]
Heavy Gear Blitz Locked and Loaded [2008]
Heavy Gear Blitz Field Manual [2011]
Heavy Gear Blitz Alpha/Beta/KS edition (2013/2014/2015)

So... 9 editions in 20 years...and that is considering the "alpha" and "beta" and "Kickstarter" rules releases as a single evolving conglomerate edition. I knew it was a lot but I don't think I've ever seen it listed year by year. I guess it is a good thing I missed the period between 1997 and 2006 specifically because of the 2nd edition RPG flip flop.
True enough, you could likewise add in the products & Gear Up emags that introduced or consolidated new rules and/or factions for stretches when the main books were delayed:

Old Company: Partial list, with miniature oriented products noted in red. (For the pre-Blitz! mini rules the Tactical & RPG sourcebooks still provided varying amounts of model data used in game.):
Spoiler:
Heavy Gear RPG (1st Ed) [July 1995]
Field Guide(s): Northern Vehicles 1 & Southern Vehicles 1 [Dec 1995]
Field Guide(s): Northern Vehicles 2 & Southern Vehicles 2 [April 1996]
Tactical Air Support [May 1996]
Duelist's Handbook (1st edition) [Aug 1996]
Tactical Field Support: Artillery & Ground Warfare [Oct 1996]
Southern Army List One: Southern Republic (No other books were published in this format.) [Nov 1996]
Northern Vehicle Compendium One: Gears & Striders [Dec 1996]
Southern Vehicle Compendium One: Gears & Striders [Jan 1997]
Northern Record Sheets One & Southern Record Sheets One: Gears & Striders [Feb 1997]
The New Breed: Battle Before The Storm (Activision PC game tie-in #1.) [Sep 1997]
Heavy Gear RPG (2nd Ed) [Dec 1997]
Northern Vehicles Compendium Two & Southern Vehicles Compendium Two: Tanks & Artillery [Feb 1998]
Heavy Gear Tactical [1998]
Terranovan Military Powers Book One: Northern Guard [Aug 1998]
Tactical Pack One: Battle of Two Towers [Dec 1998]
Tactical Pack Two: Shadow War [March 1999]
Armor Pack Volume One: Tanks and Striders [May 1999]
Terranovan Military Powers Book Two: Southern MILICIA [Aug 1999]
Tactical Pack Three: Operation Sudden Fire [October 1999]
Black Talon - Mission to Caprice (Activision PC game tie-in #2.) [Jan 2000]
Tactical Space Support - Space Warfare [March 2000]
Duelist's Handbook (2nd edition) [Dec 2000]
Heavy Gear Tactical Miniature Rules [Feb 2001]
Earth Book One: Colonial Expeditionary Force [April 2001]
Raids & Raiders - Interstellar Strikes (Miniatures Supplement) [June 2001]
Tactical Dueling - Arena Champions (Miniatures Supplement) [Oct 2001]
Heavy Gear Player's Handbook (3rd Edition) [Sep 2003]
Heavy Gear Vehicle Companion (3rd Edition) [Jany 2004]



New Company:
Spoiler:
Heavy Gear Silhouette Core Miniature Rules [2005]

(DP9 ceased producing RPGs between 2006 - 2008 for their entire game catalog, including Heavy Gear.)

Heavy Gear Blitz [Aug 2006]
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Hammers of Faith (North) [Dec 2006]
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Swords of Pride (South) [Mar 2007]
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Shields of Freedom (Peace River) [Dec 2007]

Heavy Gear Blitz Locked and Loaded [May 2008]
- Black Talon: Return to Cat's Eye (Caprice, CEF, Black Talons) [May 2009]
- Shattered Peace: The War for Terra Nova Book 1 (Eden) [2010]
- Terra Nova Gambit: The War for Terra Nova Book 2 (Utopia) [2010]
- Gear Up (Utopian rules primer & template, Field Testing: Defense Modifiers, Errata) [Issue 1 - Spring 2010] pdf
- Gear Up (Medical Support Section rules, The Drop Bears Diggers rules, Field Testing: Revised Range Bands, Errata, Quick Reference Flowcharts) [Issue 2 - Summer 2010] pdf
- Gear Up (Field Testing: HHT-90 Combat Group & Multi-Component Vehicle Rules, Field Testing: New Overkill Rules, Revisions & Errata, Southern Medical Support Section, PRDF Medical Section, PAK/CEF Medical Section) [Issue 3 - Winter 2010] pdf
- Gear Up (Combat Engineering Companies, Official Rules: New Heavy Hover Tank combat group) [Issue 4 - Summer 2011] pdf
- Gear Up (Captain Alston Ash-Dreyes: NuCoal Special Character) [Issue 5 - Winter 2012] pdf
- Gear Up (Lieutenant Colonel Mikhaela Moore: NuCoal Special Character, Constable Keiko Hijikawa: Drake Pilot & Ace Special Character) [Issue 6 - Spring 2013] pdf

Heavy Gear Arena (Unsupported after release save for a Gear Up article or two.) [2010]

Heavy Gear Blitz Field Manual (Consolidation of Gear Up field testing rules with a partial reprint of Locked & Loaded) [Nov 2011]
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Perfect Storm; NuCoal Field Guide [Nov 2011]
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Forged in Fire; Southern Field Guide [~late Dec 2012]
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Blood Debt; Peace River Army List [Dec 2013] pdf
- Heavy Gear Blitz! Lion's Wrath; Northern Army List [June 2014] pdf

Heavy Gear Badlands Rally (Unsupported stand-alone tabletop game introducing rule concepts similar to the Alpha/Beta ruleset) [2013]

Heavy Gear Blitz! Field Support Guide (Consolidation of Gear Up material & unsupported factions to Field Manual rules) [2014] pdf

Heavy Gear Blitz Alpha/Beta/KS edition [~late 2012/2013/2014/2015]

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 03:25:38


Post by: DP9Dave


I see you have identified the need for a living rule book to create a stable, yet flexible, product that can adapt to the steadily increasing line of models.... Boy have I got great news for you!

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 03:47:34


Post by: cincydooley


Well, DP9Dave's responses here have pushed me pretty close to backing.

I have a full NuCoal force that I don't know what to do with, so It'll be nice to have new starter to pull people in with.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 04:51:10


Post by: Smilodon_UP


RJVF wrote:
I know a little bit about the plastics industry, having worked in it for awhile, and the numbers don't seem right to get a finished injection mould and run production with it.
By the stretch numbers, they are figuring $5000 per tool (figuring 1 sprue per model, each sprue will be a separate tool), and not simple tools at that.
I can't see them funding that much tool and die making and running profitable production runs with those numbers. A production run of a 1000 is not a big one for any injection shop, so its not like DP9 will be a priority customer unless its a very small shop.
 paulson games wrote:
Another concern is even the base funding level isn't going to afford them the ability to do plastics through the KS funds alone, not a problem if they are using it in combination with other funding sources but if it's being drawn exclusively from KS their base goal is far short of what they'll actually need.
Although Dave says different, I have no independent reason to have faith in his opinion for material the company has never used, but this could very well be why Stretch Goals #9 & #10 seem like such a $$$ grab for essentially nothing.
I'm curious to know if knowledgeable folks think an extra $18K CAD is enough of a contingency fund to cover for everywhere the company's estimates are off or might be off?


 DP9Dave wrote:
There was a comment about the mold costs compared to the length of the stretch goals. We have done an incredible amount of diligence with regards to how the molds will be constructed and costed. As the biggest capital purchase that will result from the Kickstarter we have investigated the process and the costs very seriously. The biggest risks to the KS was that the mold costs would get out of hand, or we would promise more than was feasible for our fulfillment schedule. We have received enough information now to be certain of including at least two additional weapons for each model pus some alternate poses for legs and arms.




 DP9Dave wrote:
Boy have I got great news for you!
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I can be swayed to share the viewpoints of Dream Pod 9 and your absolute supporters.
My only interest in anything for current HG has been helping to make potential consumers/investors aware of real, actual problems that existed in the past and continue to exist in the present.

In my opinion expecting the consumers/investors to not only pay for the company's products but to also be the ones to advertise for the company instead of being a minor adjunct to a sustained professional effort not only makes for poor exposure, it is also poor business practice.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 04:54:23


Post by: cincydooley


 Smilodon_UP wrote:

Multiple folks advised the Pod of the need to advertise before the KS went live, and neither you nor Robert did so.
Multiple folks advised the Pod of the need to advertise on more industry sites after the KS went live, and you or Robert have barely posted up to, or sent news to, half-a-dozen'ish sites almost a week after the fact.

_
_


I'm sorry, why are these two problems?

I mean, maybe they are to you, but they don't affect my desire to back at all.

Nor are they by any means necessary to run a successful KS campaign.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 05:29:44


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 cincydooley wrote:
I'm sorry, why are these two problems?
I mean, maybe they are to you, but they don't affect my desire to back at all.
Nor are they by any means necessary to run a successful KS campaign.
The problem I see is that every time the company comes out with a product or idea they virtually never bother to promote it outside of their own forums and Facebook page, or even between those two venues in a coherent manner.
Their campaign had 164 backers on Thursday, 209 on Friday, but only 28 on Sunday - expecting word of mouth to make up for not promoting the KS themselves either isn't cutting it or anyone willing to back them has already done so for the most part.
Yet the Pod keeps doing this same thing to hinder their potential successes over and over, despite the fact that both of the people who currently make up the company have a background in marketing or retail.

This was also just one example of the kind of counter-productive things DP9 keeps doing, even when pointed out to them by one of their supporters.
If any company can't be bothered to do something this basic, what else can't they be bothered to do.

I do not think what the company, game, setting, or past and present fans/players need is any more salespeople offering only a string of snow-job missives filled with partial truths and hype.
To truly change, which can apply to any company with this kind of history really, individuals dedicated to simply living up to their word by doing what they say are needed.

Admittedly no one is perfect, human beings are flawed and for the most part do not lead innocent or even largely blameless lives.
That being said, it should never be acceptable to be carrying on in a manner contrary to what is being said even in the most minor of things yet repeatedly be asking folks to hand over money in good faith.


As a final thought;
I do not think it unreasonable to be concerned to the point of disinterest if I look into something and find that a person or persons worthy of respect who laid the groundwork for everything that followed have chosen to no longer continue along whatever path the project took.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 05:33:41


Post by: cincydooley


I guess I still don't understand why you have such a problem with it.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 05:38:27


Post by: Kalamadea


 Smilodon_UP wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I can be swayed to share the viewpoints of Dream Pod 9 and your absolute supporters.


Then why the hell are you still posting here? I have absolutely no love for DP9 having been burned by them in the past (at least they still freaking MAKE your game!), but there's already a thread for this line-by-line argument, air-all-past-grievances crap and it was linked in the first response to this topic. I'd kind of like to hear discussion about the kickstarter itself, not read through page after page of how a couple posters feel they were single-handedly utterly ignored last time just because now they have a company rep posting. I'd rather the rep stick around and "You won't convince me ever" isn't exactly a healthy stance to discuss a topic over. I don't want a fanboi-only, all-is-honey-and-cupcakes-and-sunshine reaction, but maybe just a little less "everything you've done is wrong and I told you so!" in the thread would be pretty fantastic.

Personally, I'm pleased enough with how this is proceeding that I've pledged DP9 some money for the first time in nearly a decade, for a game system I had only a passing interest in before and as long as the KS does eventually deliver (and I fully expect it to be a year+ late) then I consider it worth it. If you don't then you don't, but attacking a rep the first time he starts posting here probably won't really help the rest of us get new info out of him.

Honestly, most people should know what to expect out of DP9 by now, they have a history that's been pretty well established even just in this very thread. At this point you either accept that and back anyways or pass up the KS because you know better, but it's getting pretty difficult to find actual news when you need to sift through even more of these same posts that were beaten to death in the 50+ page thread and on other forums


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 06:25:28


Post by: HudsonD


I think the point Smilodon's trying to make is that DP9 talks the talk, as they always have, but to trust them for actually walking the walk this time, is kind of going out on a limb.

Anyway, let's check the "we mean it this time !" DP9 list.

Blaming the previous designers for the current issues ? Check and check.
Claiming that this time they're listening to feedback, when just last month, critical posts were being pruned of the official boards ? Check.
Asking for trust and support, because this time they'll be able to deliver ? Check.

I could go on and on, but it'd be pointless. I'll just point to Paladium's very successful kickstarter campaign as an example of what happens when a company with history tries something they've never done before.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 08:42:29


Post by: reds8n


Whilst any issues with previous actions concerning relevant parties any worth raising I think the issue has been covered so it'd be better if that particular tangent was dropped for now.

As ever when indulging oneself with some toy soldiers caveat emptor should be borne in mind.

Best of luck with the campaign


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 08:48:07


Post by: frozenwastes


Twelvecarpileup wrote:@DP9Dave

Quick question, which might be a bit of a newbie question...

Is there any plans of a skirmish based version of Heavy Gear? Like 8-9 models instead of units?

Was the original Heavy Gear rules like this? (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/979/Heavy-Gear-Miniature-Rules-2nd-Edition?it=1)

Love the art design/world. It's just that the Blitz rules are pretty much unplayable (sorry).


The 2nd edition miniature rules are excellent, and yes, they'll work great with 8-9 models on the table. When I got Blitz, I too was told that it would be the standard rules for years to come and then they replaced it with a new edition right away and I haven't been back since. I have a couple gaming buddies who have all the 1st and 2nd ed books (both RPG and minaitures) and we play it a couple times a year at cons/club nights and probably should play it more regularly (too many games vying for our attention!).


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 11:50:34


Post by: BrandonKF


Please allow me to point out a very useful tool and a reward that some might miss out on if I don't point it out.

The Faction Army Set.

Not everyone has the cash to afford the full Core Starter Set. If you would like instead just to get a run on the models that are in each individual faction, you may do the following.

1. Go to the Kickstarter.
2. Pledge $1. (Canadian currency.) You may see a charge under your card, but none of this money leaves your personal bank account until the Kickstarter ends November 22.
3. Go to the Kickstarter calculator with Fundafull.
4. Here is the direct link. I do not know if it operates without you pledging first, but I will share it here with everyone for completeness' sake.
https://www.fundafull.com/projects/dream-pod-9/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set/pledge-calculator/
5. Select your home nation.
6. Scroll down to 'Rewards Available'.
7. Click on the second Gear Pilot level, 'Gear Pilot Level with Add-ons Available'. This should have $16 next to it.
This reward level will allow you to show your support and see all the Kickstarter updates. Plus it unlocks Add-Ons Available below, for you to add to your pledge. The $16 includes the $1 Gear Pilot Level pledge plus $15 shipping for US and Canadian Backers. International Backers will have deferred shipping cost (the actual shipping cost minus the $15 paid as part of this reward level)

8. Scroll down to Add-ons Available.
9. Scroll down near the bottom. Just above the $80 Basic Starter Set is, currently, the Northern Army Set and Southern Army Set.
10. Click on that and select how many you want.

The Pledge Calculator will tell you how much you should pledge for the number of Army Sets you want.

The Northern Army Set includes the following:
4x Hunters, 4x Jaguars, 2x Grizzlies, 2x Cheetahs
The Southern Army Set, predictably, includes:
4x Jagers, 4x Black Mambas, 2x Spitting Cobras, 2x Iguanas

Now, if you select the $1 Gear Pilot Pledge, you can add $80 to the Pledge, and the Earth (CEF) Army Set will include the following:
2x MHT-95s, 2x FLAIL squads, 2x F6-16 Frames, and (when they unlock) 2x BF2-21 Frames

The Faction Army Set deal also includes any 1 each of additional Northern, Southern, or Earth miniatures that are unlocked in later stages.

For the North that includes:
1x Ferret, 1x Tiger, 1x Kodiak

The South:
1x Sidewinder, 1X King Cobra

The CEF:
1x BF2-19, 1x BF2-25

And if the Backers break even further, the Caprice Army Set includes 4x Bashan Mounts with the conversion parts to make them Aphek heavy scout Mounts, Kadesh heavy trooper Mounts, or Meggido assault Mounts, plus the unseen Acco Mount.

For comparison, the current non-sale price for one Meggido Mount in resin and metal in Canadian currency is $30.28 ($27 in American currency).

For a pair of Bashans in resin and metal, $29.16 Canadian currency.

For one Kadesh, $26.79.

For one Aphek, $23.55.

The current non-sale price for a Fusilier (the equivalent of the MHT-95 in size) is $24.67 in Canadian currency.

The current non-sale price for one BF2-19 in metal is $26.79 CAD.

For two BF2-21s in metal, $37.01.

So, for $81 ($1 plus the $15 shipping in America and Canada, or whatever deferred expense the VAT is in nations elsewhere), the Faction Army Sets are not a bad deal for you to explore.

I hope this helps.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 12:23:23


Post by: Alpharius


 cincydooley wrote:
Well, DP9Dave's responses here have pushed me pretty close to backing.


Same here...argh!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 12:39:53


Post by: riker2800


Let yourself go for the Pledge, got two Warhammer 40K players that really love playing Heavy Gear with the Beta rules! I have someone else at my gaming club that will take take the plunge.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 16:12:08


Post by: DP9Dave


I like telling people just pledge for $1, get the updates and let the update messages rolling and maybe something will twig your interest. If you're not sure you want to go all in by yourself find a friend and get them to go splits.

We've now spoiled that there will be some secret interim goals that will get unlocked as we get closer to the Mounts so keep an eye out for them!

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 16:35:51


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Can I just say, I am all about healthy skepticism... but coming in neutral, with no experience with any of the parties involved... this thread reads like a mountain of angry, sour grapes on the part of a couple posters, and with DP9Dave coming across as a normal poster, making an effort to share information.

I appreciate that it COULD be all smoke and mirrors, but i've got to say, he's coming across looking reasonable, and making this company/product look pretty good.

As value keeps getting added here, i'm thinking this might prove too tempting to pass up. Its a Kickstarter, so I always go in expecting delays and such... but I am also seeing some cool looking renders for a mountain of models that look more interesting to me than that round of Reaper Bones ones which just came and went.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 16:55:16


Post by: Aesop the God Awful


I probably won't get in on this, but I'm glad to see some love for Heavy Gear


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 17:50:39


Post by: DP9Dave


I think there might be a surprise or two for Caprice... Keep eyes on!

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 19:57:39


Post by: warboss


 DP9Dave wrote:
I think there might be a surprise or two for Caprice... Keep eyes on!

Cheers!
Dave


That's good to hear. I'm curious how the sculpts and parts will look since you're combining so many different models into one. It would be like making a combo cheetah/hunter/jaguar kit.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 20:40:44


Post by: HudsonD


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Can I just say, I am all about healthy skepticism... but coming in neutral, with no experience with any of the parties involved... this thread reads like a mountain of angry, sour grapes on the part of a couple posters, and with DP9Dave coming across as a normal poster, making an effort to share information.

I appreciate that it COULD be all smoke and mirrors, but i've got to say, he's coming across looking reasonable, and making this company/product look pretty good.(...)

You know what ? You're right.
Taking a step back, I realize, that's exactly how it looks for a new comer.
On one side, you have somebody apparently affable and confident, who asks for support and claim a sincere wish for improvement, that the company is finally trying to improve and shed of its bad reputation. On the other side, you have a bunch of bitter haters* that appear intent on taking him and the company down regardless.
(*: "Beware the haters" is the actual warning given by DP9's owner when asking for people to go spread the word on other forums in their KS comment section)

I suppose I could spend some time explaining how DP9 has a long history of broken promises and failed deliveries, that they shouldn't trusted, much less supported, that they make GW looks good, they bath in kitten blood, blablabla... That'd be a waste of time, mine and yours, and there's already 50 pages of it by actual insiders.

What matters are deeds, not words. DP9 claims they're finally trying to get it right this time ? Fine. Time, and their actions, will tell for certain whether they were actually sincere.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/29 22:29:38


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 Kalamadea wrote:
Honestly, most people should know what to expect out of DP9 by now, they have a history that's been pretty well established even just in this very thread.
 HudsonD wrote:
I could go on and on, but it'd be pointless.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Can I just say, I am all about healthy skepticism...
 warboss wrote:
I agree that it should probably be best left as said.
By popular request, posts have been shortened - although I could swear there used to be a way to delete them yourself instead of having to report those you wanted gone.

/shrug, No worries.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 01:53:49


Post by: DP9Dave


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Can I just say, I am all about healthy skepticism... but coming in neutral, with no experience with any of the parties involved... this thread reads like a mountain of angry, sour grapes on the part of a couple posters, and with DP9Dave coming across as a normal poster, making an effort to share information.

I appreciate that it COULD be all smoke and mirrors, but i've got to say, he's coming across looking reasonable, and making this company/product look pretty good.

As value keeps getting added here, i'm thinking this might prove too tempting to pass up. Its a Kickstarter, so I always go in expecting delays and such... but I am also seeing some cool looking renders for a mountain of models that look more interesting to me than that round of Reaper Bones ones which just came and went.


We know we're putting a lot of value in the core set but this is only four of the factions because we're keeping it within the limits of the fulfillment period. We don't want that period to drag on past the scheduled date and we even have hope of fulfilling our obligations earlier than that (but, y'know, reality). We've kept our estimates conservative as a just in case.

Terra Nova also includes the NuCoal and Peace River factions. Then there are the additional colonies of Utopia and Eden and the Terra Novan off-world strike force called the Black Talons (What would happen if the bad asses from the Predator move got mecha and went hunting Earthers). Then there are the unexplored colonies in the setting that we have never seen such as the prison colony of Botney Bay, the mountain canton world of Jotenhein, and the mysterious colony of New Jeruselem (Where whole earth fleets have disappeared!).

So yeah, keep checking it out. I can't make excuses for mistakes made in the past but we have learned from our mistakes will not repeat them again. We've had to play catch up to the new reality in the miniature games markets though this does mean that we've able to be mentored by some friends who have completed kickstarters so we benefit from the experiences of many who went before us. Kickstarters by their nature are a trust relationship and it's through our openness and communication that you will choose to trust us, or not.

Cheers!
Dave



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 01:55:23


Post by: motyak


Guys, a mod directed you to stop talking about whatever happened in the past, as it had been well covered. You should have listened to him. Some posts have been removed now


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 02:05:35


Post by: DP9Dave


 warboss wrote:

That's good to hear. I'm curious how the sculpts and parts will look since you're combining so many different models into one. It would be like making a combo cheetah/hunter/jaguar kit.



It's funny that the legs of the Caprice models were always designed to be a basic leg shape and then have heavier and heavier armor mounted on them as their roles changed. There are also only two distinct shapes of body and a lot of similarities between the weapons and equipment they were equipped with. The Mount may be a slightly more complicated model than most, but they are more similar than they might appear at first.

As it has been pointed out the process of casting in resin/metal differs from the plastic process so some minor adjustments will have to be made to the design for casting but the look will be the same. And by minor adjustments I mean angles of detail so they can be removed from the molds, not re-design of how the mounts look. The Corporate unanimity of how their security forces look are part of the allure of a Caprician force.

And weirdly enough the first attempt to make a market ready mecha in Japan starts looking rather disturbingly like a Caprician forefather. I know it's really a test but if that is the model T ford of mecha then I think protesters might need some new tactics.

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we just broke the $75000 Goal and added two BF2-21 Frames to the core starter set plus opened up the CEF starter army for anyone who wants CEF but doesn't want to go all in for a core starter set.

Thanks for backing!
Cheers!
Dave




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And at least we're not weaponizing kids Like this guy


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 05:24:26


Post by: BrandonKF


Having passed $75,000, many Backers wondered how the next couple Stretch Goals would go. Then Dream Pod 9 decided to drop surprise Stretch Goals and Hidden Goals in.




Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 08:54:43


Post by: Albertorius


 warboss wrote:

Shouldn't that list also include the 1st and second editions of the RPG since they had the fully functional and independent minis rules as a section in the back of the books? We tried the RPG for a bit but usually ended up playing the minis game only in our group. If so, the edition cycle DP9 has had for the miniatures portion of Heavy Gear is:

Heavy Gear RPG 1st Ed [1995]
Heavy Gear RPG 2nd Ed [1997]
Heavy Gear Tactical [1998]
[Heavy Gear Tactical Miniature Rules (2001)]
[Heavy Gear Silhouette Core Miniature Rules (2005)]
Heavy Gear Blitz [2006]
Heavy Gear Blitz Locked and Loaded [2008]
Heavy Gear Blitz Field Manual [2011]
Heavy Gear Blitz Alpha/Beta/KS edition (2013/2014/2015)

Hm... yes and no. Up until Blitz!, the actual rules changes were quite a bit minimum. Only real change on those was the default damage system on the Tactical rules (similar to Blitz!'s, but even less complicated), where the "full" damage tracking rules from the RPG were optional.

The SilCORE miniature rules had a couple of small changes, but it still was 95% compatible with the previous stuff. Most of the changes between those editions I'd sau were on the "look and feel" category.

So... 9 editions in 20 years...and that is considering the "alpha" and "beta" and "Kickstarter" rules releases as a single evolving conglomerate edition. I knew it was alot but I don't think I've ever seen it listed year by year. I guess it is a good thing I missed the period between 1997 and 2006 specifically because of the 2nd edition RPG flip flop.

Albertorius, when you say you play the older rules, which particular set do you mean?

The core would be 2nd edition tactical rules, most of the time with the full RPG damage rules, but with the simpler ones for larger engagements.

Then I tend to add rules I like from the Tactical Support books, the Duellist book and the SilCORE book. As everything is basically compatible and the stats from all those editions are exactly the same, it is quite easy to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Twelvecarpileup wrote:@DP9Dave

Quick question, which might be a bit of a newbie question...

Is there any plans of a skirmish based version of Heavy Gear? Like 8-9 models instead of units?

Was the original Heavy Gear rules like this? (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/979/Heavy-Gear-Miniature-Rules-2nd-Edition?it=1)

Love the art design/world. It's just that the Blitz rules are pretty much unplayable (sorry).


The 2nd edition miniature rules are excellent, and yes, they'll work great with 8-9 models on the table. When I got Blitz, I too was told that it would be the standard rules for years to come and then they replaced it with a new edition right away and I haven't been back since. I have a couple gaming buddies who have all the 1st and 2nd ed books (both RPG and minaitures) and we play it a couple times a year at cons/club nights and probably should play it more regularly (too many games vying for our attention!).

Yeah, 2nd edition rules are the ones I'm using now, and as the Beta hasn't really addressed any of my problems with the system, I don't expect to be changing that.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 09:44:04


Post by: frozenwastes


 Albertorius wrote:

Yeah, 2nd edition rules are the ones I'm using now, and as the Beta hasn't really addressed any of my problems with the system, I don't expect to be changing that.


The 2nd edition tactical rules work. They aren't some fast play version meant to push up model counts to sell more miniatures. Each gear feels valuable in the game. Blitz and the versions that followed are like 40k and 2nd edition is like Infinity. Less models, more depth.

The cool thing is that they're still available in PDF and in Print on Demand. If anyone is thinking of getting into this KS for the miniatures, you may also want to do yourself a favor and get into 2nd edition too:

http://www.rpgnow.com/browse.php?keywords=heavy+gear+2nd

I'd actually recommend the RPG book rather than the separated miniatures rules. Yeah, it's a few dollars more, but the RPG rules give you a larger context that's quite valuable if you like the world of Terra Nova and still has all the tactical rules (and hexless miniature rules) you might want.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/837/Heavy-Gear-Rulebook-2nd-Edition

To DP9, I say consider giving away a PDF of the old tactical miniature rules as a stretch goal. Right now Classic Battletech is in the middle of a huge revival and you never know what could happen with going a bit old school with Heavy Gear.




Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 10:51:30


Post by: Albertorius


 frozenwastes wrote:
I'd actually recommend the RPG book rather than the separated miniatures rules. Yeah, it's a few dollars more, but the RPG rules give you a larger context that's quite valuable if you like the world of Terra Nova and still has all the tactical rules (and hexless miniature rules) you might want.

The tactical miniatures rules book also has pretty interesting stuff, IMHO. Like simplified damage rules in case you want to use them, Skirmish rules with reworked ranges and action stuff, and the fabulous Heavy Gear Toy Combat rules!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 13:32:47


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


I'll sign on for that. We're doing that over at Strange Aeons Kickstarter (IE giving away the old rules/expansions), as it gives gamers something to proxy and muck with during the long wait.

I'd definitely be interested in a 2nd Ed set of rules to play while beta is still in flux.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 14:21:24


Post by: Nicorex


I did not notice are they sticking with the 15mm sizes?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 14:35:06


Post by: warboss


 Nicorex wrote:
I did not notice are they sticking with the 15mm sizes?


The scale isn't changing this time around. I think 12mm is the correct conversion from their 1/144 or N scale number. It may seem pedantic but some people care about those few mm when making or buying terrain judging from the resistance the DZC sets got from some Robotech pledgers.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 14:38:39


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Out of curiosity... are there any plans for infantry during the KS? I see some for sale on the website, so I know they're part of the game, but haven't seen any via stretch-goal, etc...

Are infantry a substantial part of this game?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 15:22:00


Post by: Alpharius


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Out of curiosity... are there any plans for infantry during the KS? I see some for sale on the website, so I know they're part of the game, but haven't seen any via stretch-goal, etc...

Are infantry a substantial part of this game?


Good question!

I've been looking for a game in this scale, with mechs, tanks and infantry ever since GW abandoned Space Marine/Titan Legion!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 15:33:33


Post by: BrandonKF


Heavy Gear liked to place combined arm forces on the table specifically because the Heavy Gears are not the most powerful machines on the battlefield. Infantry aren't on the Kickstarter right now, but then neither are the larger heavy tanks, the original light tanks, nor the striders or Gearstriders.

Infantry forces in 2nd edition were often good as a pillbox defense. Stick them inside a building or bunker, arm them with an AGM (Anti-Gear missile), and let them do their work.

Blitz has expanded on the infantry options by including the ATV-mounted infantry, cavalry (barnabies, armadillo beasts, and greater pack lizards), motorcycles, turtles hell heavy infantry... there are a slew of options.

The downside is that being 12mm, the ground pounders are tiny enough you have to be careful how you store them.

As far as releasing 2nd Edition Tactical rules, I am unsure if DP9 might release them since Arkrite Press is preparing to go into its Test Pilot Program for the RPG rules. It isn't a bad idea though.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 15:37:45


Post by: Albertorius


 Alpharius wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Out of curiosity... are there any plans for infantry during the KS? I see some for sale on the website, so I know they're part of the game, but haven't seen any via stretch-goal, etc...

Are infantry a substantial part of this game?


Good question!

I've been looking for a game in this scale, with mechs, tanks and infantry ever since GW abandoned Space Marine/Titan Legion!

They are to me, that's to be sure. In HG, every unit has pros and cons. Infantry is still the units you want to actually take and hold territory, as they can be pretty hard to dislodge, and they have access to some heavy stuff (or rather had: the infantry weapons in the beta are on the weaksauce range so far).

OTOH, the Gears' niche would be similar to the current IFVs: relatively light vehicles able to carry heavy ordnance, but not really able to face real MBT weapons without dying. They tend to shine in difficult and built-up terrain where other more conventional vehicles have trouble, and where unobstructed lines of sight are kinda hard to come by.

Tanks are still the kings of the battlefield, and can kill anything on open ground. Terra Nova's weather makes air power not really all that powerful, so that's even more so than here.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 15:46:17


Post by: warboss


 Albertorius wrote:

Tanks are still the kings of the battlefield, and can kill anything on open ground. Terra Nova's weather makes air power not really all that powerful, so that's even more so than here.


The weather is SUPPOSED to make air power not really all that powerful but now that they're introducing new and expensive resin models for the airpower in blitz scale for the first time that may change (see the Gear$trider We Need to $ell These Model$ Retcon Effect). I've never tried out airpower in the alpha/beta rules so I'd have to depend on others to tell me if it actually still is the case. I ended up using DZC fighter bombers for my airstrike counters for my blitz armies.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 15:50:37


Post by: Albertorius


BrandonKF wrote:
Infantry forces in 2nd edition were often good as a pillbox defense. Stick them inside a building or bunker, arm them with an AGM (Anti-Gear missile), and let them do their work.

Or don't. You were also able to airdrop them, or give them jetpacks to make them faster, or ATVs/ORVs for the same. There were lots of options.

Infantry was kind of a pain because most weapons were not designed to attack them by default (so they had problems hitting them) and also most weapons did damage to a limited amount of them. Also, infantry squads usually fielded 2 kinds of weapons, standard and heavy ones: although usually the only weapons actually useful against vehicles were the heavy ones, the fact that infantry received bonuses to their RoF made them abble to mass standard weapons against light vehicles to damage them.

Blitz has expanded on the infantry options by including the ATV-mounted infantry, cavalry (barnabies, armadillo beasts, and greater pack lizards), motorcycles, turtles hell heavy infantry... there are a slew of options.

Those were on 2nd edition too, actually. And also jeptack infantry, that has since apparently disappeared from the game.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 16:34:47


Post by: BrandonKF


warboss wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

Tanks are still the kings of the battlefield, and can kill anything on open ground. Terra Nova's weather makes air power not really all that powerful, so that's even more so than here.


The weather is SUPPOSED to make air power not really all that powerful but now that they're introducing new and expensive resin models for the airpower in blitz scale for the first time that may change (see the Gear$trider We Need to $ell These Model$ Retcon Effect). I've never tried out airpower in the alpha/beta rules so I'd have to depend on others to tell me if it actually still is the case. I ended up using DZC fighter bombers for my airstrike counters for my blitz armies.


The hoppers aren't exactly like the fighter-bombers and bombers. They all have the Fragile Movement vehicle trait. Once they lose Hull points, they suffer a -2D6 penalty to their PILOT checks, making flying them when they are crippled very unpleasant.

Albertorius wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
Infantry forces in 2nd edition were often good as a pillbox defense. Stick them inside a building or bunker, arm them with an AGM (Anti-Gear missile), and let them do their work.

Or don't. You were also able to airdrop them, or give them jetpacks to make them faster, or ATVs/ORVs for the same. There were lots of options.

Infantry was kind of a pain because most weapons were not designed to attack them by default (so they had problems hitting them) and also most weapons did damage to a limited amount of them. Also, infantry squads usually fielded 2 kinds of weapons, standard and heavy ones: although usually the only weapons actually useful against vehicles were the heavy ones, the fact that infantry received bonuses to their RoF made them abble to mass standard weapons against light vehicles to damage them.

Blitz has expanded on the infantry options by including the ATV-mounted infantry, cavalry (barnabies, armadillo beasts, and greater pack lizards), motorcycles, turtles hell heavy infantry... there are a slew of options.

Those were on 2nd edition too, actually. And also jeptack infantry, that has since apparently disappeared from the game.


You know I never saw the jump jet infantry except in Gear Krieg. Probably for the best.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 16:48:39


Post by: MightyGodzilla


Interesting thread. I played HG in the first edition when it was 87th scale as a companion to the first RPG, very fun. I also got to play a couple of games in the 144th scale at conventions, also good times. I haven't been a Heavy Gear aficionado in about a decade, but this could change with the KS. Definitely plastics are appreciated.

144th scale is pretty cool. There's a lot of cool 144th scale models from Japan to throw in for terrain.

These plastics aren't going to be restic like Mantic or Relic Knights are they? If so, that's a deal breaker for me. I hate that stuff...bane of the earth.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 17:20:39


Post by: BrandonKF


No. Dave mentioned earlier in this thread they were switching to styrene and they are working with a company dealing with professional aircraft models.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 22:01:21


Post by: frozenwastes


Albertorius wrote:The tactical miniatures rules book also has pretty interesting stuff, IMHO. Like simplified damage rules in case you want to use them, Skirmish rules with reworked ranges and action stuff, and the fabulous Heavy Gear Toy Combat rules!


You're right. It does have some cool stuff in there too. People should get both.

I hope the end result of this Kickstarter is the widespread availability of reasonably priced plastic gears at retailers. I'm not a fan of the general approach of Blitz and later, but I've enjoyed some of DP9's model releases over the years.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 22:36:01


Post by: MightyGodzilla


Great. I only know restic by name, didn't know if it was a type of styrene plastic, I just know that polystyrene is the good stuff. I didn't see the post with the aircraft models.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 23:42:38


Post by: RedSarge


Wonder if the plastic casting will be done in Canada? Or be an international company?

I think this Kickstarter should add some TERRAIN, eh?
Being plastic or even resin, size could be only a minor factor, think a huge colony dome? Or maybe some Badlands outposts. Extraneous to the current resin terrain... as in more terrain please!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/30 23:54:25


Post by: BrandonKF


@RedSarge. In their FAQ they confirmed it is an American company they are talking to.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 00:30:07


Post by: frozenwastes


KS Page FAQ wrote:Are the prices we see here going to be the retail cost of the models when they are released?

No. We expect to have to adjust the cost upwards from 10 to 50%. The individual Add-on rewards cost is being kept low during the Kickstarter as a thanks to our backers.


If this ends up anywhere near +50% then they're approaching charging the same price for plastic as they currently do for metal.

If the end result of this KS is that plastic Hunters, Jaguars, Jagers and Black Mambas end up near the +10% over KS, then that would definitely allow for some lowered barrier to entry for new players.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 02:27:50


Post by: DP9Dave


 warboss wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

Tanks are still the kings of the battlefield, and can kill anything on open ground. Terra Nova's weather makes air power not really all that powerful, so that's even more so than here.


The weather is SUPPOSED to make air power not really all that powerful but now that they're introducing new and expensive resin models for the airpower in blitz scale for the first time that may change (see the Gear$trider We Need to $ell These Model$ Retcon Effect). I've never tried out airpower in the alpha/beta rules so I'd have to depend on others to tell me if it actually still is the case. I ended up using DZC fighter bombers for my airstrike counters for my blitz armies.


The Dragonfly and Varis hopper are more light hovertanks than aircraft. They are treated like normal vehicles except that they can move over any terrain regardless of the height of them. Otherwise they follow all the normal rules.

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 02:27:55


Post by: BrandonKF


True frozenwastes. I don't think they would charge the same in plastic as they would for metal however, since some of the cost of the miniatures involves the increased weight the metal has over plastics.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 05:09:47


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:
True frozenwastes. I don't think they would charge the same in plastic as they would for metal however, since some of the cost of the miniatures involves the increased weight the metal has over plastics.


Here's hoping. It does make sense that they'd increase the cost of heavier miniatures as they both cost more in metal and cost more to ship.

I just realized we're looking at a full year for the proposed release date for this KS. So while it's cool to think about DP9 getting plastic gears out at a good retail price, we are talking about a year from now.

It's cool to get reminded of Heavy Gear, but I think I'm going to sit the KS out and use my funds for more immediate purchases and when the fulfillment happens, see how the kits actually turn out as people receive them.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 05:29:15


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 frozenwastes wrote:
I just realized we're looking at a full year for the proposed release date for this KS. So while it's cool to think about DP9 getting plastic gears out at a good retail price, we are talking about a year from now.
Originally the KS was hoped/intended to be fulfilled around the time of Gencon '15.
But that was for the very first printed rulebook-oriented preview poll, and only somewhat the same time frame for the second or third idea that had more miniature-oriented plans, with elements of the later ideas then combined into the last preview before the Pod decided to go live with it.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 07:41:39


Post by: Kalamadea


 frozenwastes wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
True frozenwastes. I don't think they would charge the same in plastic as they would for metal however, since some of the cost of the miniatures involves the increased weight the metal has over plastics.


Here's hoping. It does make sense that they'd increase the cost of heavier miniatures as they both cost more in metal and cost more to ship.

I just realized we're looking at a full year for the proposed release date for this KS. So while it's cool to think about DP9 getting plastic gears out at a good retail price, we are talking about a year from now.

It's cool to get reminded of Heavy Gear, but I think I'm going to sit the KS out and use my funds for more immediate purchases and when the fulfillment happens, see how the kits actually turn out as people receive them.


engineering and tooling the molds for plastic injection is neither cheap nor fast, especially with how many are appearing in the KS. I'd be absolutely astonished if it doesn't take far longer than the 1 year quoted. Hell, look at Robotech KS, took them 2 years just to get the initial plastics out, no second wave in sight. Relic Knights was delayed just as long, and it wasn't even HIPS, just restic. Mantic has been more or less spot-on with their projections, but often at the cost of getting it done right (just look up the Men at Arms fiasco). No matter what DP9 is saying right now this is going to be a very delayed project, and I don't think anybody here who has been following kickstarters believes there won't be significant delays on this one. Better accept it now or you're gonna be REAL angry in a year. If that makes you squeamish than you might want to just take your money elsewhere.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 08:01:12


Post by: Morgan Vening


 Kalamadea wrote:
engineering and tooling the molds for plastic injection is neither cheap nor fast, especially with how many are appearing in the KS. I'd be absolutely astonished if it doesn't take far longer than the 1 year quoted. Hell, look at Robotech KS, took them 2 years just to get the initial plastics out, no second wave in sight. Relic Knights was delayed just as long, and it wasn't even HIPS, just restic. Mantic has been more or less spot-on with their projections, but often at the cost of getting it done right (just look up the Men at Arms fiasco). No matter what DP9 is saying right now this is going to be a very delayed project, and I don't think anybody here who has been following kickstarters believes there won't be significant delays on this one. Better accept it now or you're gonna be REAL angry in a year. If that makes you squeamish than you might want to just take your money elsewhere.
While I would not in the slightest be surprised at delays, that it's an American company that they're dealing with should mitigate at least some of the issues that lead to significant delays in other projects. Shipping of prototypes should cut days, if not weeks off each iteration. Factory inspections would be a day trip, and phone calls can be handled during business hours. And you'ld hope that the communication issues that plagued RRT (apparently PB and the manufacturer sat on their thumbs for two weeks, waiting for a response from the other, seemingly due a lack of clarity in the last sent email) and just the general issue of translation won't be apparent in this project.

Will that fix every problem? Probably not. But it does remove several of the potential road blocks that other companies have had, by dealing offshore.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 08:03:54


Post by: frozenwastes


 Smilodon_UP wrote:
Originally the KS was hoped/intended to be fulfilled around the time of Gencon '15.
But that was for the very first printed rulebook-oriented preview poll, and only somewhat the same time frame for the second or third idea that had more miniature-oriented plans, with elements of the later ideas then combined into the last preview before the Pod decided to go live with it.


I noticed on the DTRPG page for the free beta rules that it mentions the Kickstarter as if it's about funding the printing of the rulebook. So it does look like this project when through some revisions before launch.

I can't get excited about the Blitz line of game development. I'm not interested in fast play rules meant to jam more and more miniatures onto the table. So I'm glad this KS is more than a printing of a rulebook I don't care about. It would be nice if Kalamadea ends up being wrong and that this new DP9 team manages succeed where others have failed and actually make their deadlines, but I'm not willing to put my money on it.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 09:06:17


Post by: AAN


Time to chime in.


I always loved Heavy Gear, I played the two PC games, I own the videos and have a ton of old RPG books and most of their miniature rules.
I was amazed to see some of the bad comments and personal experiences mentioned above or on other threats, for me dealing with DP9 was always satisfying.
Both as a customer or licenser for my Victory Decision books.
(see: http://www.wargamevault.com/product/109526)

And all that despite the fact that I rarely played the actual game since the interest for the HG rules is very limited at my hometown…

I have to say that I like the direction the KS takes, already overfunded and the cool pledges fall by the minute.
Even for an old fart fan like me this KS holds some real value.

I already have for example most of the Northern and Southern minis, but the CEF and Caprice minis adds value to me.

I am especially looking forward to the Caprice mounts. 1st, I do not already have them, 2nd these mounts can serve double duty as SWTOR Droids etc!

And announcements like this makes me really happy, brings back some nice nostalgia.
“Plus for all our old school fans, our original artist, Ghislain Barbe, is back and will be doing the cover for the book.“

 RedSarge wrote:
I think this Kickstarter should add some TERRAIN, eh?
Being plastic or even resin, size could be only a minor factor, think a huge colony dome? Or maybe some Badlands outposts. Extraneous to the current resin terrain... as in more terrain please!

I can only support this! DP9 already have some VERY nice terrain. I would love to see this in plastic or even some additional pieces...

Infantry would be cool too, but IMO the existing metal infantry is good and affordable enough…


Want to see more? -> http://www.adpublishing.de/html/dp9_stuff.html


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 16:56:50


Post by: warboss


Brandon, in honor of your recent train of thought elsewhere on the interwebs, I'll repost my old joke pic that borrows from Yahtzee and a PC gaming meme.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 17:56:32


Post by: BrandonKF


.... OK, it's a good ha-ha meme, but please tell me I didn't come across like that....

I was trying to keep things concise for new potential players.

http://heavygearthunder.blogspot.com/2014/10/oh-look-new-tau-one-pledgers-mantra.html


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 18:32:02


Post by: DP9Dave


Hey AAN, Freaking awesome mini pics there. Very old school.

Yes, our original idea was to do a kickstarter to fund a new super sized core rulebook but that didn't really get any hearts racing.

So we asked our customers what to do and the poll came back to do a book but do some miniatures too. So we thought, hmmm, is there more to this miniatures idea? And lo and behold the response to doing plastic miniatures seemed key to doing a successful kickstarter. We played with a couple of ideas, with some very ambitious early plans and finally settled something more manageable on the concept that North vs South would appeal as a base set that we could add the Earth Forces in as the counter force if we expanded.

That plus the fact that we already had a number of the 3D images for North vs South helped settle the planning.

I have a new found sense of respect for people who do kickstarters. It's a ton of work!

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 19:39:01


Post by: Alpharius


Is base size/shape a big thing in Heavy Gear?

I much prefer round bases to those odd hex bases that seem to be on these newer models?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 20:17:15


Post by: frozenwastes


Round bases even work with the older rules as long as you have a hex or something like it handy for measuring (we use Warmachine scatter templates). Round bases are pretty much 100% normal in Blitz.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/10/31 21:10:30


Post by: BrandonKF


@Alpharius and frozenwastes, the new Beta rules do not use the old Tactical rules of hex facings, so any base is appropriate. They also have really sweet scenic bases for the universe here:

http://store.dp9.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=69_96

And the new Beta rules use silhouettes for each vehicle type so there is less discussion of how much you see or don't see.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 00:07:41


Post by: Laemos


This looks nice but seems a little expensive for what we get. I must think some more on this.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 04:29:01


Post by: BrandonKF


@Laemos,

From the Frequently Asked Questions of the Kickstarter:

Are the prices we see here going to be the retail cost of the models when they are released?
No. We expect to have to adjust the cost upwards from 10 to 50%. The individual Add-on rewards cost is being kept low during the Kickstarter as a thanks to our backers.

-
Will my rewards be packaged for retail?
These rewards will be for the models and components selected only. Final packaging and casting for retail will be completed only after the rewards due to our backers have been cast. This is to keep the total time to completion as short as possible

-
Any plans for an exclusive or limited edition plastic miniature for backers?
No plans for a limited edition plastic miniature just for Backers as making a mold for 1 model would cost a lot and we would not be able to use it afterwards. If we were to do something exclusive it would need to be in pewter.

-
How many additional weapon loadouts will you be providing with the models?
As many as we can, we expect each model to have its standard weapons plus at least 2 extra weapon options. Weapons will always be available as parts on the online store. Here is link for those interested:
https://store.dp9.com


To summarize, this is the cheapest these sculpts will be. The Kickstarter is intended specifically to get the new machinery and tools and company set on making these models into plastic.

Retail will be more costly.

If you are looking for immediate purchases, the DP9 store is holding a special sale for the Kickstarter.

There is also Atomic Empire, although some of their products are reading as temporarily out of stock.

I hope that information helps.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 05:27:47


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:

And the new Beta rules use silhouettes for each vehicle type so there is less discussion of how much you see or don't see.


While my favorite preference is defined area terrain for LOS purposes, if you are going to go true line of sight, silhouettes are the way to go. I always liked that in Warmachine, which has the heights printed on the side of the spray template:





Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 05:59:31


Post by: BrandonKF


@frozenwastes, Being introduced to Infinity last year, I always found the 'if I see you, you see me' mechanic very intuitive and also helpful, if perhaps sometimes nonsensical that a machine could see through a hole where its foot was located when somebody saw it.

The silhouette profile, however, does aid in Line of Sight and also helps to resolve any major issues that might come up in a game where players disagree on how much of a model is revealed.

There are some vehicle traits in the Beta rules that can modify this, such as 'Low Profile', but those traits are specific to their individual vehicles.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 08:35:23


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:
@frozenwastes, Being introduced to Infinity last year, I always found the 'if I see you, you see me' mechanic very intuitive and also helpful, if perhaps sometimes nonsensical that a machine could see through a hole where its foot was located when somebody saw it.


Infinity is going with the silhouette approach with the new 3rd edition that's about to come out. True line of sight from any point of the silhouette of the firer to any point on the target's silhouette. I think it'll work great both there and in Heavy Gear (if it ends up being included), just like it does in Warmachine.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 08:37:17


Post by: BrandonKF


Is that a hint?

You really ought to join us in the Beta development forums. It's a ghost town right now while everyone sits back and eats popcorn watching the ticker and commenting on the newest updates, but a fresh pair of eyes is welcome.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 08:44:03


Post by: frozenwastes


The bold part is me emphasizing the topic of this thread, Heavy Gear.

It's more that I've been playing with base volume rather than miniature-part-sees-miniature-part for a while. Like since Warmachine MK2 came out in 2009. I know the approach works and was happy to see it coming to Infinity.

My view of play testing is that I shouldn't comment outside of the context of actual play. And I certainly don't want to impact the direction of the game considering that it would be unfair for DP9 to listen to my ideas, which would be based on reading a document and not playing the game it describes.

I just threw the beta rules on my ereader and if reading them inspires me to actually break out some models (or get my friend who run 2nd edition every 6 months or so to try it out too) then after I play I'll have some feedback. Right now my gears serve as light mechs in other mech and 6mm sci-fi rules, but maybe they can be used for HG again more regularly than twice a year or so.

I'm willing to comment positively on using base volume/silhouette because I have positive experience with it in other games and expect people will be happy with it here. It could be though that there's something in the larger context of play that makes that unfounded though. Don't know as I haven't played the beta rules (yet?).




Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 08:45:40


Post by: BrandonKF


Thank you for that explanation frozenwastes.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 12:21:33


Post by: Steel Paladin


Had a game with a good fellow on the Game Summit Forums known as Packadurm. We did NuCoal (me) vs. Northern (him) at 100tv with two combat groups a side, mainly Gear-based forces as we were relearning the new edition of the rules.

What did I learn?

- Rockets are way better in the new ruleset. Like just so much better. The always-on AE and the Blast:1D6 trait are mucho caliente.
- We're in Trouble is so much more effective and useful. So awesome to see a Gear just spend an action shrug off a few damage points.
- I think lasers kinda ended up with a bit of a nerf.
- Rear arc and from-above shots don't get bonuses anymore? What? (Was later informed by folks on the Heavy Gear Pictures group on FB that an update to the PDF version added these back in. We were using the printed book version.)
- Fusiliers got an upgrade from MAC to HAC.
- Chevaliers (and maybe FS Gears in general) are DAMN tough. I mean, they'll take even more punishment than a Fusilier. Which is a hovertank. A TANK. Six armour points and two structure? Yes please.

I put my photos from the game in my DakkaDakka gallery for y'all.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/90820-Steel%20Paladin.html


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 22:40:49


Post by: Albertorius


That bit about Chevaliers being tougher than tanks... worries me, TBH. Worries me a lot. Gears are NOT supposed to be as tough as tanks, nevermind tougher. Not even things like Kodiaks.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/01 23:19:00


Post by: riker2800


Believe me, he is talking hover tank, which are not very real tank, when you speak of things like Aller or Visigoth, those are tanks that takes forever to kill I have enough games under my belt to know what I'm talking about!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 00:51:31


Post by: Albertorius


riker2800 wrote:
Believe me, he is talking hover tank, which are not very real tank, when you speak of things like Aller or Visigoth, those are tanks that takes forever to kill I have enough games under my belt to know what I'm talking about!


Er... I know what a hovertank is, thank you very much. And it changes nothing, even less in the particular case of a Fusilier, which was the hardest LHT in the whole game at 26 armor + Sturdy box and +0 Defense at Combat Speed. Had it been designed in 2nd edition, it would also have had the customary tank +5 front reinforced armor and the +5 HEAT resistant armor.

A Gear should NEVER, EVER, be as tough as that. NEVER.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 12:01:54


Post by: Alpharius


Maybe they are going to be now though?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 12:25:08


Post by: frozenwastes


They have progressed the timeline quite a bit haven't they? Could these larger gears finally be getting developed to the point of being sufficiently resilient?

I will say though, that part of the appeal of the gears is that they are their own class of combat unit and not tank substitutes. It goes against quite a bit of established HG lore to redefine gears into possessing the characteristics of other combat units.

With Heavy Gear starting as an RPG, there's a lot of previous customers out there who really love the world so I can see where the "A Gear should NEVER, EVER, be as tough as that. NEVER." approach comes from.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 13:12:49


Post by: mrondeau


 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe they are going to be now though?

In which case, it's no longer Heavy Gear. It just wear Heavy Gear's skin.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 14:05:32


Post by: Alpharius


Well, it will be Heavy Gear if that's what DP9 chooses to do with it!

Everything's still in beta though, right?

Not much cause for concern yet...maybe?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 14:25:47


Post by: Albertorius


 Alpharius wrote:
Well, it will be Heavy Gear if that's what DP9 chooses to do with it!

Everything's still in beta though, right?

Not much cause for concern yet...maybe?

One of the fun things about HG is (or maybe was) that there's a proper tool for every job, which promoted the use of combined arms. If now FS Gears are for some reason going to be tougher that light tanks, and said light tanks mount a similar amount of weapons, cannot traverse as many terrain types, are less maneuverable, and are costlier (both in $ and in TV)... why the hell would you be using light tanks, again?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 14:32:07


Post by: Steel Paladin


I submitted my observations to DP9Dave for his review. I agree with Albertorius that an FC Gear from ANY faction should not be able to take more damage than even a light hover tank.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 14:36:09


Post by: mrondeau


 Alpharius wrote:
Well, it will be Heavy Gear if that's what DP9 chooses to do with it!


And if GW decides that imperial guard will now slaughter space marines in terminator armour in close combat, it will still be 40K.

Yes, a company can change the fundamental assumptions behind their settings and games. In which case, using the original name is borderline dishonest, and those who liked the original settings can complain and stop caring about the product.
Because it's no longer the setting they liked.
It's now a different setting. A new setting, that's using the name of the old. It is no longer the old setting.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 14:37:41


Post by: riker2800


Light tanks like Klemm and Hun get Armor of 10 and more hit points, while support Gear are at armour 8, so, no, Support Gear are not as tough as a light tank, however, yes, light tank are overpriced by around 4TV each. This I agree with.

Hover tanks are a complete other matter.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 15:18:06


Post by: Firebreak


 frozenwastes wrote:
They have progressed the timeline quite a bit haven't they? Could these larger gears finally be getting developed to the point of being sufficiently resilient?

I will say though, that part of the appeal of the gears is that they are their own class of combat unit and not tank substitutes. It goes against quite a bit of established HG lore to redefine gears into possessing the characteristics of other combat units.


For a long time I've considered the idea of a "far future" Heavy Gear as something that might be worth it. The appeal, as I've always distilled it, about HG is that the mechs aren't magic teenager carriers. They're warmachines with a specific purpose. If a Gear has the same armour and weapons as a tank then.... why bother making tanks? Or if a tank is as maneuverable as a Gear, then why bother with Gears? But one of the hallmarks of the game has always been a (deliberately vague) sense of technological advancement. Older Gears feel older. Newer Gears are better. But at some point, if the story keeps going, to express that development on the tabletop, we're going to need every Gear acting like a hover-Gearstrider.

Which would be stupid.

But, mash down the fast-forward button a couple hundred years, dial up the anime, and make a full-on super-robo game to compliment the realistic combined arms approach of Heavy Gear. "Colony Wars" or anything more original. Perhaps some kind of Chronicle.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 16:01:43


Post by: Albertorius


riker2800 wrote:
Light tanks like Klemm and Hun get Armor of 10 and more hit points, while support Gear are at armour 8, so, no, Support Gear are not as tough as a light tank, however, yes, light tank are overpriced by around 4TV each. This I agree with.

A Klemm has Armor 10, yes. It also has DC 5/3 and Pilot 6+, and the enemy gets additional rolled attack dice when flanking it. For 22 TV.
A Hun also has Armor 10, with DC 5/4 and Pilot, again, 6+ and additional attack dice for flanking. For 20 TV.

On the other hand, let's look at the Chevalier and other FS Gears:

A Chevalier has Armor 8. It also has DC 6/2 and Pilot 5+, which means that when damaged, it will keep at peak performance longer, and can use maneuver defenses and cover much, much more efficiently than light tanks, which make the armor difference very much moot (also, light tanks are much more vulnerable when flanked, which makes the armor even less of a point). It also sports as much weapons as those regular light tanks. All for 14 TV.
A Spitting Cobra has, again, 8 Armor, but gets even more DC at 6/3, with Pilot again 5+. Only this one costs 13 TV.
A Grizzly's core stats are pretty much the same as the Chevalier's, 8 Armor, DC 6/2 and Pilot 5+. This one costs 12 TV, though.

At least light tanks have 2 Actions when the other has only one, right? But then, when you look at the really "heavy" class Gears, the Kodiak and the King Cobra... well, you see this:
A Kodiak has 9 Armor, with DC 6/2, Pilot 5+, the enemy doesn't get additional attack dice for flanking it and has about twice as many weapons as the light tanks. And 2 Actions. For 18 TV.
And the King Cobra? Well, the King Cobra has 9 Armor, too, and +5 Pilot and reduced flank attack dice, and loads of weapons, and 2 actions... but DC 6/3 instead. Same 18 TV, though.

Hover tanks are a complete other matter.

No, they are not. They are tanks with Hover movement. By the same token, would Hover Gears be a complete other matter, when compared with regular Gears? Because I can assure you that's NOT the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Firebreak wrote:
For a long time I've considered the idea of a "far future" Heavy Gear as something that might be worth it. The appeal, as I've always distilled it, about HG is that the mechs aren't magic teenager carriers. They're warmachines with a specific purpose.

Pretty much this.

If a Gear has the same armour and weapons as a tank then.... why bother making tanks? Or if a tank is as maneuverable as a Gear, then why bother with Gears? But one of the hallmarks of the game has always been a (deliberately vague) sense of technological advancement. Older Gears feel older. Newer Gears are better.

Of course, but that's the thing... so is everything else. Any advancement you make to make Gears faster, lighter, tougher and better are advancements that you can apply to other, more conventional units. And it's something that the setting has done.

But at some point, if the story keeps going, to express that development on the tabletop, we're going to need every Gear acting like a hover-Gearstrider.

Which would be stupid.

When dealing with advanced/obsolete tech, I'd advice using this:


Hooks & Tips: Advanced Technology
The game system has been calibrated to handle the capabilities of most technological items within a few hundred years’ timespan. Extremely long-lived campagins, however, might find cost and size spiralling upward as Gamemasters try to adjust game stats to reflect a rapidly improving technology base.

The solution is to use Technical Levels. Each construct or piece of equipment can be assigned an abstract numerical value that represent how sophisticated the item is. Abstract, because none can predict the future’s capabilities. Items of the same technological level are built and used with the standard rules. If pitted against a lower or higher Tech Level, however, the difference between the two is applied to the dice roll. If using Threat Value and cost to choose units, each Tech Level multiply the cost by ten. Sensor and Comm Base Ranges are also multiplied by ten.

For example, a 2210-era campaign can be used as the Tech Level baseline. If one of the campaign’s mecha is pitted against a 1990 jet fighter (which would be, say, two TLs lower), it will gain an automatic bonus of +2 to all die rolls. If the very same mecha was found and used by rebels in the year 13,508 to be pitted against TL+5 grav-spheres, the latter would have a +5 modifier to all dice rolls.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 16:39:58


Post by: grujav


I agree with Albertorius, though I didn't know it had gotten this bad. I played up until early Blitz where hordes of cheap gears (in other words MILITIA) was king. But that was then.

Tanks do have two actions so they can shoot that Spitting Cobra or Grizzly twice which can cause more damage then the one shot that they will suffer in return. So if King Cobras and Kodiaks did not have two actions I could almost see a point to tanks, though it does seem they are over priced.

With that said tanks have an issue in design that has bothered me as well from back when I played and that is by HG world definition tanks have multiple actions, good armor, bad maneuverability and flank weakness. Why would any government throw money at close support tanks? Why wouldn't they all mount long range weapons with one point defense weapon? It makes no sense if your vehicle is vulnerable to side attacks to then design some for urban warfare (unless the urban warfare is to level that city that is two clicks that way) when you have cheaper both in terms of cost to the military, in life, everything except maybe training in gears who are better suited for dealing with threats close in and from most angles.

I know design wise it gets boring having another tank with a light field gun or heavy mortar but that is what makes sense and instead building a small tank with lots of flamethrowers or large tank with a close in snub cannon, well if you wanted to do something like that use a Strider. Many of them can still turn around in your average sized street.

Its just a fluff issue but it has always bothered me. I could take this Hun with a bunch of flamethrowers for some good fluff reason and watch it get pasted because it has to get in so close or I could take these two Flamm Jagers.

When designing a combined arms game its important that all pieces have their place and use. You can't get perfect balance across all units, some of them will be not as effective point for point compared to another within their respective forces but you need to at least find a niche for every class of unit.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 17:53:41


Post by: Albertorius


grujav wrote:
With that said tanks have an issue in design that has bothered me as well from back when I played and that is by HG world definition tanks have multiple actions, good armor, bad maneuverability and flank weakness.

Well, to be fair tanks didn't really had any real weakness to being flanked until now. They just had reinforced armor in the front xD.

Why would any government throw money at close support tanks?

A very fair question.

Why wouldn't they all mount long range weapons with one point defense weapon? It makes no sense if your vehicle is vulnerable to side attacks to then design some for urban warfare (unless the urban warfare is to level that city that is two clicks that way) when you have cheaper both in terms of cost to the military, in life, everything except maybe training in gears who are better suited for dealing with threats close in and from most angles.

Agreed. Southern tanks might get a (slight) pass in those terms because they tend to be cheap, cheap, cheap and only have 2 crewmembers. As to side attacks vulnerability, see above.

I know design wise it gets boring having another tank with a light field gun or heavy mortar but that is what makes sense and instead building a small tank with lots of flamethrowers or large tank with a close in snub cannon, well if you wanted to do something like that use a Strider. Many of them can still turn around in your average sized street.

The Visigoth with the double Snub cannon is... well, one of the most stupid payloads ever. At least it had a VHAC and AP charges, but... yeah.

As to the Hittite (the one with a flamer and 4 HMGs, not lots of flamers )... well, it's an anti infantry escort, really, ad a cheap one at that (like, Jäger cheap) so I think it makes some sense, at least in older editions where infantry packed a mean punch and GREL infantry was basically a terror in the field. As an escort for other tanks I think it had its place, even though it was very specialized. Then it got retconned to also be an infantry transport and, well, it made even more sense, I think.

Its just a fluff issue but it has always bothered me. I could take this Hun with a bunch of flamethrowers for some good fluff reason and watch it get pasted because it has to get in so close or I could take these two Flamm Jagers.

True, but as I said it was a really good AI plattform.

When designing a combined arms game its important that all pieces have their place and use. You can't get perfect balance across all units, some of them will be not as effective point for point compared to another within their respective forces but you need to at least find a niche for every class of unit.

Absolutely agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrandonKF wrote:
You know I never saw the jump jet infantry except in Gear Krieg. Probably for the best.

You probably didn't look very closely then, because there were some in both the MILICIA and the NorGuard army books from 2nd edition.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/02 19:14:38


Post by: Firebreak


 Albertorius wrote:



Hooks & Tips: Advanced Technology
The game system has been calibrated to handle the capabilities of most technological items within a few hundred years’ timespan. Extremely long-lived campagins, however, might find cost and size spiralling upward as Gamemasters try to adjust game stats to reflect a rapidly improving technology base.

The solution is to use Technical Levels. Each construct or piece of equipment can be assigned an abstract numerical value that represent how sophisticated the item is. Abstract, because none can predict the future’s capabilities. Items of the same technological level are built and used with the standard rules. If pitted against a lower or higher Tech Level, however, the difference between the two is applied to the dice roll. If using Threat Value and cost to choose units, each Tech Level multiply the cost by ten. Sensor and Comm Base Ranges are also multiplied by ten.

For example, a 2210-era campaign can be used as the Tech Level baseline. If one of the campaign’s mecha is pitted against a 1990 jet fighter (which would be, say, two TLs lower), it will gain an automatic bonus of +2 to all die rolls. If the very same mecha was found and used by rebels in the year 13,508 to be pitted against TL+5 grav-spheres, the latter would have a +5 modifier to all dice rolls.


Hm. Simple, elegant, easy. I like it!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 09:43:36


Post by: BrandonKF


Currently the Kickstarter has been holding steady at over $85,000. We need $8,000 more to unlock the new Caprice Mounts in plastic.

Dream Pod 9 released a new 3D run-around of the MHT-95 here.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=893295520683329

And also updated with the following:

"We just added a graphic to the front page to let everyone know that the plastic miniatures for this Kickstarter will be made in the USA. And that the Kickstarter is United Kingdom and European Union Friendly.

Dream Pod 9 has arranged for Wayland Games in the UK to act as our forwarder for UK and EU Backer reward shipments. All UK and EU Backer rewards will be packed up at our office in Canada, with Backer address labels on the packages. They will all ship out in our 4th wave of shipping as a large consolidated air freight shipment to Wayland Games in the UK, who with then mail out all the packages to our Backers. By doing this our UK and EU Backers will not have to worry about any VAT costs. If a UK or EU Backer with an earlier shipping wave pledge or the Heavy Gear Universe pledge level does not wish to wait for the wave 4 shipping, they just need to inform us. We'll ship the rewards package to them directly in the selected wave and they will be responsible for the VAT costs when it arrives.

Our 3D Modeler is busy working on the Spitting Cobra, Cheetah and Iguana models now. As he gets them finished up over the next several week, we'll get you all updates to show how they are looking. After that he'll move on the CEF models that have been unlocked and then on to the other stretch goals that get unlocked. He took a bit of time the other day to make a MHT-95 Hovertank turn around video, which I have posted below for you to checkout.

Help us get the news out to friends in the UK and European Union.

Thank you all!"


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 20:14:05


Post by: Smilodon_UP


Dream Pod 9, Inc. on November 2 at 4:11pm on FB wrote:We won't be giving out that information, as they are just an injection plastic company and have requested that we don't give out the info for now.
 warboss wrote:
If you watch enough KS, you end up seeing a general trend. I don't think there is anything to worry about at the moment but the next 48 hours will be key.
Whether they chose to back or not I think this is why such a number of people knowledgeable about KS campaigns were telling the Pod all Summer & Fall that a good deal of advertising needed to be done by the company before, during, and after the funding drive.
Every other business in the world finds it necessary to spend both time and money on advertising to try and get the exposure to generate sufficient profits, none are exempt from this process.

People in the KS comments have also repeatedly pointed out that not taking the time to proofread for grammar & spelling errors gives off an unprofessional vibe, but, well, enough said on that for the moment.

It also does no good at all in my opinion for the company to keep asking in their own venues for more people to pledge when TPTB are already speaking to their supporters.
Even in the KS comments people pointed out that asking for a pledge increase from the current backers does not equate to a needed increase in overall backer numbers.
And any appearance of begging for more support should probably be avoided at all cost by the company itself, because it could give off a negative impression that they might not want to be doing with (20) days yet to go in the drive.

Dream Pod 9 has admittedly managed to garner for the moment a far greater amount of promised pledges than most anyone thought they would, but it may just be that they have to accept the well of collective support has for the most part given what all it can for this campaign.
If planned or additional models have to be put on hold until another KS campaign can be run at a better time in the new year or down the road, maybe that is what has to happen for now once the final tally is reached on this one.



grujav wrote:
Why would any government throw money at close support tanks?
 Albertorius wrote:
A very fair question.
Even from a plausibility standpoint, and not necessarily from a hard sci-fi realism standpoint, a ground vehicle with a stressed metallic or bonded ceramic+metal skin is absolutely going to be easier (and for comparable overall mass likely cheaper) to design, manufacture, maintain, and repair than any legged combat vehicle at the cost of the easy versatility of swapping a hand-held delivery system.

But then again, how many weapons does one vehicle actually need to field.
Obviously one system can't do everything, but adding more systems instead of more versatile systems cuts into the volume available for ammunition/stores etc able to be carried so much that it would probably be detrimental rather than beneficial.


grujav wrote:
I know design wise it gets boring having another tank with a light field gun or heavy mortar but that is what makes sense and instead building a small tank with lots of flamethrowers or large tank with a close in snub cannon, well if you wanted to do something like that use a Strider. Many of them can still turn around in your average sized street.
 Albertorius wrote:
The Visigoth with the double Snub cannon is... well, one of the most stupid payloads ever. At least it had a VHAC and AP charges, but... yeah.
I honestly never understood the anemic ranges even in the RPG, nor the overabundance of delivery systems when it was the terminal effect of the munitions that were supposed to matter, whether cheap or high-end.

One thing that also always struck me as odd was in the 2e Technical Manual;
Rocket packs on a Gear are there for anti-structure and/or area effect purposes.
The Hunter/Jäger were supposed to have the protection of a modern day T-72 versus frontal attacks but carried a weapon that we know just from today, no matter how good the penetrator, is going to be lucky to damage that kind of armoring from the flank or rear.
Sure, explosive 20mm rounds are murder against unprotected infantry troops with even one capable of blowing quite a large hole in a soldier, but the whole point of the main delivery system on a vehicle is to be able to kill a comparable opposing vehicle.

On numerous occasions Bradleys in Desert Storm engaged Iraqi T-72s with APDS rounds from the 25mm chain-gun and were unable to effectively mission kill those kind of tanks.
Which is why current maneuver combat vehicles are future proofing with Supershot 25/30mm rounds or else being designed to carry 40mm cannons made compact through the use of electro-thermal propulsion or whatnot where overall vehicle size/mass can't be made greater.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 20:25:37


Post by: Rolt



This may interest any non-US backers:
We just added a graphic to the front page to let everyone know that the plastic miniatures for this Kickstarter will be made in the USA. And that the Kickstarter is United Kingdom and European Union Friendly.

Dream Pod 9 has arranged for Wayland Games in the UK to act as our forwarder for UK and EU Backer reward shipments. All UK and EU Backer rewards will be packed up at our office in Canada, with Backer address labels on the packages. They will all ship out in our 4th wave of shipping as a large consolidated air freight shipment to Wayland Games in the UK, who with then mail out all the packages to our Backers. By doing this our UK and EU Backers will not have to worry about any VAT costs. If a UK or EU Backer with an earlier shipping wave pledge or the Heavy Gear Universe pledge level does not wish to wait for the wave 4 shipping, they just need to inform us. We'll ship the rewards package to them directly in the selected wave and they will be responsible for the VAT costs when it arrives.

Thank you all!



Also OP updated, sorry for letting it languish for so long guys and gals, other things came up.





Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 20:34:43


Post by: mrondeau


So, DP9 is making an appeal to patriotism... for a foreign country. How patriotic.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 21:13:56


Post by: Firebreak


I really wish they plastics were going to be produced in Canada (alongside the metals and resins, as they pointed out on their FB page). I understand why they aren't, but it's still too bad that buying Canadian won't really mean Canadian, in this specific case.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 21:49:57


Post by: DarkTraveler777


mrondeau wrote:
So, DP9 is making an appeal to patriotism... for a foreign country. How patriotic.


"'Murica: Our patriotism is so strong, other countries do it for us!"



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 21:55:33


Post by: Alpharius


Has this one plateaued then?

Is it at that "too good to resist" level, or was that something that was more like around the $100K level?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 22:03:41


Post by: warboss


 Alpharius wrote:
Has this one plateaued then?

Is it at that "too good to resist" level, or was that something that was more like around the $100K level?


A few hours on kicktraq doesn't make a defunding trend... yet. If it continues tonight and tomorrow then we've likely reached an inflection point in funding and not just the typical mid KS peaks and valleys plateau. My ballpark estimate was that the base pledge is "worth it" at 99k as you'll have four fully unlocked factions in the set that each give you a full average sized army in the OLD/CURRENT rules and four smaller ones/two allied average sized ones for the NEW/BETA rules.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/03 23:52:38


Post by: Alpharius


Whoa!

No one mentioned 'defunding' here - just, perhaps, that this one's found it's level.

I don't actually think it has, and I think it will hit that magic $99K level which will make it a 'great deal' and that will also make this one late + extra late when it comes to delivery! Hopefully just not "Robotech Late"!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 00:02:40


Post by: warboss


Sorry, I was just taking the thought to its next logical step (aka Thon). If you watch enough KS, you end up seeing a general trend. I don't think there is anything to worry about at the moment but the next 48 hours will be key.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 00:39:07


Post by: frozenwastes


Well, I finished my read through of the rules. The end result is that I was not sufficiently interested to want to play the game it described.

The rules were described in a clear, technical manner with diagrams that look like they are from a science textbook. They're clear and show what's what, but make me feel like HG is written for a small subset of the gamer market who enjoy reading support documents for software they use.



This is a great document for people who already play the game and want the rules in a very efficient manner, but it's the last thing I'd give someone to entice them to play the game.

As to the game described, it looks fine. I just can't think of a reason why I should play it compared to everything else that's vying for my attention these days. I've already got 2nd edition HG if I'm feeling nostalgic for 90s TerraNova. And to be honest, I'm currently not.

If the game takes off and people I know who used to play break out their collections and invite me to play, I will. I'm just not sufficiently enthused about it to be the one hosting games and driving things forward locally.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 01:01:33


Post by: Laemos


How do the models and game compare to the Paulson one? Which is better value for money?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 02:05:38


Post by: plastictrees


One is a one man operation producing resin/metal models and the other is IP that's been around for a couple of decades that is trying to fund plastic minis right now.
Model for model you'll get more stuff with HG.

At 15mm Paulson mechs would kick HG mechs around like soccer balls, and I can certainly speak to the high quality of Paulson's resin casting.

Does Paulson have a game out yet?

Really hard to make a valid comparison between the two.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 03:04:00


Post by: riker2800


 frozenwastes wrote:
Well, I finished my read through of the rules. The end result is that I was not sufficiently interested to want to play the game it described.

The rules were described in a clear, technical manner with diagrams that look like they are from a science textbook. They're clear and show what's what, but make me feel like HG is written for a small subset of the gamer market who enjoy reading support documents for software they use.



This is a great document for people who already play the game and want the rules in a very efficient manner, but it's the last thing I'd give someone to entice them to play the game.

As to the game described, it looks fine. I just can't think of a reason why I should play it compared to everything else that's vying for my attention these days. I've already got 2nd edition HG if I'm feeling nostalgic for 90s TerraNova. And to be honest, I'm currently not.

If the game takes off and people I know who used to play break out their collections and invite me to play, I will. I'm just not sufficiently enthused about it to be the one hosting games and driving things forward locally.


The Beta will be updated in a few weeks, and many stuff like your Sat up example will be gone, a lot of stuff is being removed in the name of streamlining and faster game. EW is being completely rewritten as of now, all for the better.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 04:44:42


Post by: frozenwastes


riker2800 wrote:
The Beta will be updated in a few weeks, and many stuff like your Sat up example will be gone, a lot of stuff is being removed in the name of streamlining and faster game. EW is being completely rewritten as of now, all for the better.


I'm currently more interested in games that are deep yet elegant rather than streamlined and fast. I agree it's a good thing to get rid of unnecessary rules, but I can't help thinking that these incremental changes from a more complex version from long ago over time is probably not as good as doing game design from the ground up. If the goal is a fast and streamlined game, then designing *that* game (rather then slowly tweaking towards it) might be a better way to go. I get though that there's this whole existing customer base who may not want more than tweaking over time.

I understand that it's basically a reference book for the rules. It's a good document for that purpose, but it doesn't capture the imagination like other game books I've read. If the goal is, at all, to get people excited for the kickstarter and for the idea of playing the game in the future so they will fund more, then some other document is needed. Or maybe a video series (record the audio in a silent place though so there's no hiss).

If the goal is an actual starter set for people who are new to get into the game, then I don't think the reference manual approach is really appropriate for first contact with the game either. I'd recommend a series of scenarios that teach you the rules as you play them, introducing more and more rules in each of them as you play.

I'm out on this Kickstarter, but hopefully it'll work out great for those interested. I'm just not interested in a fast and streamlined heavy gear. I know that miniatures need selling and a game that needs more miniatures can create an opportunity to sell them, but such an approach is not for me.

EDIT: I've enjoyed participating in this thread and being reminded of something I played regularly in the 90s. Gear Krieg was ahead of its time in terms of the popularity of weird WW2 and will always remain one of my favorite games. Keeping previous editions of heavy gear available in PDF and print on demand is great as well. Glad to see they are still available. I hope this funds and funds well and nice plastic gears will be available to me as a retail customer even if I don't want to sign up to get a ton of them at once.




Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 18:11:01


Post by: warboss


Yeah, Gear Krieg was definitely ahead of its time. I remember when they tested out the rules at gen con pre release and used hunter and jaeger minis IIRC with scale soldier heads on top of the gear ones (so curvy russian gears were Jaegers with russian WW2 helmets and angular hunters with german helmets). Frozen, you could always pledge the princely sum of $1 and then increase it during the pledge manager phase if you change your mind or just prefer to procrastinate and delay the decision. I don't know how long they'll keep the pledge manager open but hopefully they'll take the mantic route and right up until they start production and/or ship.

It looks like yesterday was an anomaly most of the day and rallied late last night. I checked on kicktraq occasionally throughout the day and it was negative until the evening (I saw up to -3 backers but a little birdie told me it dipped to -6 at one point) but apparently the fanbase rallied with a net zero backer number by the end with a few folks already pledging increasing their individual pledges.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set/#chart-daily


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 18:20:43


Post by: Alpharius


Definitely in the KS Mid-Campaign Lull Period:




This one should still get up to ~$125K - $150K though!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/04 19:26:18


Post by: BrandonKF


Here is Update #35 for the Kickstarter, a preview of the Acco Mount from Caprice that will be unlocked at $99,000.

While working on the new edition of the Heavy Gear Blitz rules, we realized that Caprice needed a small low cost trooper mount to counter opposing factions. So the Acco was designed around the idea of having a Mount about the same size as a Gear with light weapons. The cockpit area in the front of the mount is just a bit smaller than a Hunters, with hatch for the pilot enter at the top. Behind the pilot is the iconic dome covering, on all Caprice Mount engines, and there are hard points on each side to attach the weapons systems. The standard Acco has a medium machine gun in the front, light rocket pack on the left, and light autocannon on the right. It will also have two variants; one with a light frag cannon and the other with a light flamer.

We hope you all like the preview image below with Acco at the top and then a smaller image of the Acco and a Hunter shown to scale, side by side. The Acco Mount will be unlocked when we reach stretch goal 12 at $99K in Pledges. At that point 4 of them will be added to the Core Starter Set, making it an even more amazing backer reward.






Currently the Kickstarter is at $86,000. With $7,000 more the plastic Caprice models will be unlocked.

Maybe others don't like the idea of a simplified ruleset, but the fact is that a simpler ruleset can make for a faster game once the rules are learned. This Kickstarter is not just for old existing players, it is meant for retailers and newcomers too. New players will be able to get 4 full forces with the Core Starter Set at a price that is arguably good. Retailers can also purchase these sets ahead of time with an eye on expanding their groups.

I hope to look forward to many more players. I created a Facebook Group a year back that recently received a new name, covering every update between Heavy Gear Assault, Heavy Gear Blitz, and the Heavy Gear Universe RPG.

The name of the group is Terra Nova DMZ: Heavy Gear Universe Fans.

If you are having trouble locating someone in your local area, feel free to come over and join. We also regularly post updates on the models we are currently painting. And we don't mind answering questions others may have for the universe.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 00:01:45


Post by: riker2800


I really like that new Acco design, quite respectful of the existing Caprician designs.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 00:24:07


Post by: Morgan Vening


BrandonKF wrote:
Maybe others don't like the idea of a simplified ruleset, but the fact is that a simpler ruleset can make for a faster game once the rules are learned. This Kickstarter is not just for old existing players, it is meant for retailers and newcomers too. New players will be able to get 4 full forces with the Core Starter Set at a price that is arguably good. Retailers can also purchase these sets ahead of time with an eye on expanding their groups.
But simplified/faster doesn't necessarily mean better. While I don't want a game between two reasonable sized forces taking nine hours, having that same sized force take 30 minutes isn't my cup o' tea either. Nor do I want to need to triple my "reasonable" sized force just to get some longevity/tactical variety. I'm liking the base mechanics I've seen, but I'm more interested in the 10-15 models range, rather than the 40-50 range. I want the choices of individual figures to matter.

It's a balance, between being overly complicated, and reducing tactical options. Too many options and complexity taken to one extreme, is bad. Not enough, IMO, is worse. Because it leaves little room for growth, and lists/armies/the game itself, get boring fast. I don't play 40K, because there's few tactical choices on the tabletop, it's move/shoot, and the only variations are figure/weapon stats, and some positional/targetting options. But the decisions by players, while important, are limited. And frankly, the market for that kind of game is kinda full.

On the other side, I want to be clear, while Battletech was my first love, and I still love it, the (relatively) complicated combat system doesn't actually add tactical complexity. There are some definite decisions in there, but mostly those are on the positional/firing choice options. Both of which this version of Heavy Gear has. But I don't want it to be Battletech without the paperwork either (that's called Alpha Strike, apparently). I just want at least some models to have options beyond move/shoot. I think Malifaux 2E captures that well. And given the style of this genre, I'm really hoping we don't lose (and hopefully expand upon) the whole command/control/EW/battlefield intelligence element that is missing from nearly all of these games. While I'm not sure if the Sattelite Uplink thing mentioned earlier is necessarily mechanically right (having only just started), I think I'll be disappointed if the concept is flat out shelved, to make the game "simpler".


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 01:50:54


Post by: frozenwastes


warboss wrote:Yeah, Gear Krieg was definitely ahead of its time. I remember when they tested out the rules at gen con pre release and used hunter and jaeger minis IIRC with scale soldier heads on top of the gear ones (so curvy russian gears were Jaegers with russian WW2 helmets and angular hunters with german helmets). Frozen, you could always pledge the princely sum of $1 and then increase it during the pledge manager phase if you change your mind or just prefer to procrastinate and delay the decision. I don't know how long they'll keep the pledge manager open but hopefully they'll take the mantic route and right up until they start production and/or ship.


If DP9 can make the initially mentioned plastic kits in a nice hard styrene with the funding they have, then the KS has already accomplished the only goal I'm interested in. At this point it's either going to all work out and I'll be able to get plastic gears at retail or there will be post-KS issues and it won't. Either way I don't see any advantage to putting money up a year in advance. I didn't pledge for any of the three Reaper KS for the same reason-- I don't want a ton of miniatures to bloat my unpainted pile and at this point the products are being developed and brought to retail. So congrats to DP9 for a successful KS, even half way through!

KS Update wrote:So the Acco was designed around the idea of having a Mount about the same size as a Gear with light weapons.

...

Currently the Kickstarter is at $86,000. With $7,000 more the plastic Caprice models will be unlocked.


I think the Acco looks great and pretty much all the mounts are also great models for use as drones in 15mm and 28mm sci-fi gaming. If they end up being plastic and more accessible, that would be awesome too.

BrandonKF wrote:Maybe others don't like the idea of a simplified ruleset, but the fact is that a simpler ruleset can make for a faster game once the rules are learned.


There's nothing wrong with a simplified set of rules. I also don't have any problem with the idea of a simplified set of rules for Heavy Gear except that it seems like a mandate to increase model count to drive up sales. I get that companies need to sell miniatures, but I'm just not that interested in such an approach.

I also think the Blitz line of development isn't a good way of making such a rules set. It's incremental tweaks to a more complicated base done over and over again over a decade. The best way to make a simple, fast and elegant game is to design that game rather than force another game to be that way with revisions.

I sent an email to some people I know who have gotten some of the recent Heavy Gear starter armies to let them know about the KS (I want the availability of plastic gears at retail to happen, after all). I think the starters they got came with a little pocket sized HG:B:L&L:1.1 (lol... revisions) and they all ended up being largely disappointed by the rules and don't play. I told them there's an open beta and they can go give feedback about what happened. Maybe one or two of the six who originally got into the game together but no longer play will do that. I bet there are quite a few people who bought starters as a result of Wayland promoting them but haven't stuck with the game at all. It's possible that my local experience isn't typical, but it seems like Blitz is the type of game where a small minority click with it and the rest sort of lose interest.

That said, I know I've said positive things about 2nd edition in this thread in previous posts. I'm not sure it's the type of game that would succeed now either. It's success in the 90s was probably the result of the importance of distribution and retail and developing a product appropriate to the shelf space rather than anything about the game. Like White Wolf and Palladium filling up shelves with RPG books. The 90s aren't coming back but there might be a place for Heavy Gear in a new way. Like how Onyx Path runs continual Kickstarters to print material for White Wolf's products. Maybe Heavy Gear can become like Mantic's approach with continual Kickstarters every year.

On the other hand though, Catalyst pretty clearly demonstrates that continuing to support a game that was popular in the 90s can really work. So maybe I'm wrong about that.

BrandonKF wrote:This Kickstarter is not just for old existing players, it is meant for retailers and newcomers too. New players will be able to get 4 full forces with the Core Starter Set at a price that is arguably good. Retailers can also purchase these sets ahead of time with an eye on expanding their groups.


Actually it kind of seems like it is meant for old existing players. Another incremental tweak to the Blitz line of development. This could be the rebirth of the game with a design that matches the goals of the design from the ground up. Instead, we have a KS that originally started as an idea to print a rulebook revision and based on the feedback of existing customers expanded to include plastic miniature production.

This KS is all about giving existing gamers what they want. And I think it might end up being at the expense of getting new customers as apparently even with Wayland picking up the game and general distribution of the game going up with HG:B:L&L:1.1 things didn't grow enough for the existing management of the company to go forward with it.

riker2800 wrote:I really like that new Acco design, quite respectful of the existing Caprician designs.


It really is excellent.

Morgan Vening wrote:I'm liking the base mechanics I've seen, but I'm more interested in the 10-15 models range, rather than the 40-50 range. I want the choices of individual figures to matter.


The individual figure choices matter to a degree but the base maneuver element appears to involve multiple models most of the time.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 01:59:54


Post by: riker2800


The goal is to have mostly all the tactical option you see in the Beta rules, but instead make those rules easier in their execution.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 02:05:40


Post by: frozenwastes


riker2800 wrote:
The goal is to have mostly all the tactical option you see in the Beta rules, but instead make those rules easier in their execution.


Admirable goal. The question is whether or not you can get there tweaking the existing rules set or if you have to start from scratch.

It's a tough place to be in, having to appeal to existing loyal Blitz players and try to expand the game to new players.

I don't envy the designer's jobs.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 02:19:58


Post by: riker2800


That is quite a job indeed.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 02:55:57


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 frozenwastes wrote:
I also don't have any problem with the idea of a simplified set of rules for Heavy Gear except that it seems like a mandate to increase model count to drive up sales.
..
It's incremental tweaks to a more complicated base done over and over again over a decade. The best way to make a simple, fast and elegant game is to design that game rather than force another game to be that way with revisions.
I notice these two points keep coming up again in conversations on most any venue since the Alpha material was released back around the end of January.


 frozenwastes wrote:
Morgan Vening wrote:I'm liking the base mechanics I've seen, but I'm more interested in the 10-15 models range, rather than the 40-50 range. I want the choices of individual figures to matter.
The individual figure choices matter to a degree but the base maneuver element appears to involve multiple models most of the time.
Something I think folks might be hesitant about with this type of ruleset is that high model count, as other games at a similar scale just seem to devolve into a slug-fest because there isn't any room to maneuver on a typical gaming board when so many get fielded.

But I'm not sure that can be avoided by utilizing things like multiple scales in the same ruleset, or at least it didn't work as tried in the Silhouette Core Miniature Rules publication.
Although failures of that kind could also be from different scales having the effect on games of this type being oriented towards more traditional types of wargames and being less about anime-oriented vehicles.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 07:12:40


Post by: Albertorius


riker2800 wrote:
I really like that new Acco design, quite respectful of the existing Caprician designs.

You think so? Huh. My reaction was actually the opposite. The newest update, with all the mounts side by side, shows how big of a departure is that new mount's design from the rest.

Can't say I like it much.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 08:16:14


Post by: frozenwastes


Smilodon_UP wrote:I notice these two points keep coming up again in conversations on most any venue since the Alpha material was released back around the end of January.


That's very interesting. It was this Kickstarter thread that caused me to look at Heavy Gear again. Perhaps I'm just typical of people who used to play but don't and have been exposed to other rules sets on the market. I know getting back into Battletech and getting into Infinity and X-Wing has really increased my appreciation for a full game experience with a lower model count. I no longer have any interest for higher model count games like 40k and am even finding the model count of Warmachine/Hordes to become a bit tiresome beyond 25 points.

Something I think folks might be hesitant about with this type of ruleset is that high model count, as other games at a similar scale just seem to devolve into a slug-fest because there isn't any room to maneuver on a typical gaming board when so many get fielded.

But I'm not sure that can be avoided by utilizing things like multiple scales in the same ruleset, or at least it didn't work as tried in the Silhouette Core Miniature Rules publication.


I'm not that concerned about model count vs. table size and room to maneuver. I get that can be an issue for many games, even of medium model count, but it's not really my issue when it comes to model count.

My main issue with games that have individually based miniatures acting as a unit is that I'm just tired of it. In what way? I'm tired of my miniatures being wound counters or being less than a full game piece in their own right. When I see how valuable a single mech miniature is to a BT player during a game or a single TIE is to an X-Wing game in terms of game depth and decision making, I wonder why I should bother with any game that groups individually based models into squads. Or any game that markets itself as being about playing faster or more streamlined or whatever. I don't want fast and streamlined rules that cause miniatures to matter less, I want them to matter more.

It's totally okay if I'm not the target market and this project just isn't for me though. I just wonder how typical I am these days. Do people actually care about games being fast and streamlined versions of previous rules? Or is that just trying to walk the tight rope between keeping existing customers and getting new ones? They can't make a new game from scratch without losing the small customer base they have so all they can do is put out another version of basically the same thing and hope they can market it to new people better than the last time with HG:B:L&Lv1.1?

I hope this KS continues to succeed and that there are no issues with fulfillment and then retailers and distributors all stock the new plastic HG miniatures. I really do. I will buy some for use with other rules, but I'm not interested in yet another revision of Blitz and I think at this point, I've fully explained why.






Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 10:13:37


Post by: Albertorius


The games I'm invested into right now are more on line with X-Wing and Infinity than they are with Warhammer 40.000, that's for certain. But I'm also into FoW, so...

I can certainly say that I'm quite more interested in the old HG 2nd edition game than I am with the Beta currently being developed, but I'm not sure if that has to do with game size or with the fact that the decisions taken for the game are decisions I don't really care for.

I don't think I particularly dislike "big army" games, all in all, as everything has its place, and I love me a big game of OGRE from time to time. But I do think that I dislike games that use big armies just for the sake of using big armies. I don't like the new WFB edition at all, for example, and I think that the Horde rules and the like have hampered the game as a whole.

What I realize I'm into right now is games with fully realized "campaign modes", like Deadzone or the old Necromunda. I would have played the gak out of HG: Arena if only the rules didn't suck so bad... :(


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 12:03:49


Post by: BrandonKF


@frozenwastes

The target number for the current Blitz is 4-20 models. At its highest point level currently, 150, you might get 3 5-Gear squadrons of Jaguars (10 points each).

Or a mixture of low and high point models, as you see fit. But 40-50 models would probably be reserved for an all-infantry battalion, with lots of infantry bases. Which would make for a great early era fight between common Jagers and Hunters assaulting a defended position sometime prior to the War of the Alliance, but it might be a bit slow to play out.

I have a rendition of crossover between Infinity and Heavy Gear on my blog, but that is in need of folks playtesting and letting me know how things stack up. It is also aimed more at the high model count that I envisioned for Blitz prior to this Beta, although you can certainly make it work for lower point confrontations if you so desire. I just have to wait for the new N3 rules to be shown so I can double-check its compatibility with the current ruleset and stats I have.

As far as Heavy Gear Arena, there is a group of players who are already working on a fan update of the Arena ruleset on the DP9 forums. I don't know all of the problems that are there, Albertorius would know more about the issues than I would.

I will straight-up argue with you about the use of individual models in squads because straight-up the newer Orders mechanics included in the Beta allow squads to perform as a team to take down hard targets together, and there are plenty of instances where lone models have made a difference in a game by achieving the mission goal for their player. This isn't a game of wound counters unless you want it to be. The mission choices of Blitz are also expected to be extended into 5th edition, and do not make the game all about just shooting your opponent dead.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 15:25:19


Post by: Firebreak


I don't understand what tactics means.

What, really, needs to go on, on the tabletop, beyond moving and shooting, to represent tactics? Does there absolutely have to be command points or EW or, well, let's call it what is is - sci-fi's answer to magic's roll in a traditional tabletop game - to make "tactical" decisions? Is moving to a better spot so you can kill that guy not a tactic?

I used to play Warhammer. It had moving, shooting, fighting, and magic. Does that mean it had tactics?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 15:33:48


Post by: riker2800


Tactic is using many different options to achieve the goal you want to attain. Which most of the time is killing the other guy.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 15:38:54


Post by: Albertorius


 Firebreak wrote:
I used to play Warhammer. It had moving, shooting, fighting, and magic. Does that mean it had tactics?

In my experience... a bit, but much less so than other games, not necessarily more complicated ones, like for example OGRE, which is surprisingly deep for a game so simple.

One of the problems of WFB/40K is that you can pretty much win or lose a game during the army building.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 15:46:30


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:

The target number for the current Blitz is 4-20 models. At its highest point level currently, 150, you might get 3 5-Gear squadrons of Jaguars (10 points each).


This puts it into the same sort of model count as Warmachine/Hordes. You can play small games with a warcaster and a few jacks or have 20+ models depending on game size and the things you choose.

Or a mixture of low and high point models, as you see fit. But 40-50 models would probably be reserved for an all-infantry battalion, with lots of infantry bases.


To get those kinds of numbers in Warmachine you'd also need to go very infantry heavy.


I will straight-up argue with you about the use of individual models in squads because straight-up the newer Orders mechanics included in the Beta allow squads to perform as a team to take down hard targets together


I do apologize if I misrepresented things. In the beta you do indeed choose a model, decide what it's going to do and then resolve what it does and then move on to another one and another one until the entire combat group has been activated. Then the opponent activates a combat group and goes through the actions the members of that group takes. I just don't think this needs to be combined with a fast and streamlined approach with a higher model count. The best games of 2nd edition we ever had were multiplayer convention/club games where we activated model by model rather than command group by command group.

As for Infinity it strikes me as odd every time I play it. I love that I spend an order and do something with a miniature and then there are reactions and I'm making important decisions on an action by action basis with one model. I do, however, detest cheerleaders. Models there just to give better models more actions. It really makes miniatures feel pointless. They at least should be watching lines of fire and making AROs. A basic trooper with a rifle can really do a lot in that game.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 15:55:37


Post by: Albertorius


 frozenwastes wrote:
I do, however, detest cheerleaders. Models there just to give better models more actions. It really makes miniatures feel pointless. They at least should be watching lines of fire and making AROs. A basic trooper with a rifle can really do a lot in that game.

Heh, agree. Cheerlead as much as you want, basic trooper, but first get your ass into position and watch those lines of approach. I'm not paying points in my list for you to get comfy behind a wall


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 15:57:36


Post by: DP9Dave


Here are some recent updates:











I just love the little Acco, it's going to look great on the table.

Don't forget to go pledge!
Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 16:11:06


Post by: BrandonKF


No apology necessary. I understand that you are worried this game will be dumbed-down because the rules are being made simpler in their effects. But just because the effects of the game are being simplified in their intent, that doesn't necessarily invalidate models in this new rendition. Yes, it is a tweak off the old 2nd Edition Tactical days, but I apologize, the 90s were the 90s.

We already know that the RPG will be revisited, but for now this new edition of Blitz should be worked on to such a degree that it will be fun for anyone who picks it up. If you want to cut out some parts of the rules, it shouldn't negatively impact the game. Likewise, the players should be in it for fun. And I like to think that this new Kickstarter is a great opportunity.

You have a new living rulebook that the players can use for free, just like Infinity, you have models that were previously made of metal going to plastic molds so they can be shipped for a lot less cost to the manufacturer, thus making the price more affordable for the player, and you have the opportunity to get brand new models on order before others can lay their hands on them in retail.

Sure, folks are saying, I will wait until they go to retail, but if you know this Kickstarter will be given priority by the company for the Backers, wouldn't you want your stuff as soon as possible?

I also understand that a LOT of people are weary of Kickstarters in general, especially after Robotech. But I want to point out that this Kickstarter is not aiming to fill you up with 50-60 models that get carved down to a whopping 24 bits for a basic trooper. The company is aiming for a reasonable 40ish miniatures, with the most pieces being 10-12 bits, unless production has to change.

I would like to see the molds myself, but the fact is that won't be coming on for another 2 or 3 months, depending on purchasing everything necessary to get it all set up. Then again, maybe it will take a little longer, or maybe I will get a surprise and they are able to do it in record time with the new manufacturer.

If you want to jump into the open Beta, there are a few different places still to get HG pewter miniatures for a fair price, and you wouldn't need that many to get the jump on things while you wait for the Kickstarter set to be sent.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 16:33:58


Post by: Alpharius


Sorry to ask what has probably already been asked (maybe even by me!) and answered, but, what scale if this game in?

Thanks!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 18:03:07


Post by: warboss


BrandonKF wrote:
No apology necessary. I understand that you are worried this game will be dumbed-down because the rules are being made simpler in their effects. But just because the effects of the game are being simplified in their intent, that doesn't necessarily invalidate models in this new rendition. Yes, it is a tweak off the old 2nd Edition Tactical days, but I apologize, the 90s were the 90s.


This has always been a problem for HG. While technically faster and more streamlined than CBT (a selling point back in the mid 1990's), the same can be said of a glacier. Compared with games nowadays, Heavy Gear is on the complicated side due to a dichotomy that the company (until this KS and the alpha rules) barely pretended to address. Put simply, HG games take way too long for the model counts indicated in the rules that you supposedly should be playing. The only games in the last "north american championship" at gencon a few years ago that came close to a natural ending (3 turns) were the ones where the super elite force of Black Talons faced off against the same. For those not familiar with HG, it's the equivalent of Draigo and Grey Knight Paladins facing off against the same... the highest point cost gears you can find that give you the smallest model count possible without busting out tanks and striders. There are only two solutions to this... you either

a) Decrease the intended model count... which makes less money for the company. I'd suspect they're hesitant to do this on the eve of investing (your money) big into plastics production just to sell less models per player army than before. Corvus Belli and Infinity seem to be rocking this idea at the moment to good effect (as in 75% annual growth) by staying with metals and staying focused on a dedicated skirmish game.

or

b) Decrease the rules complexity. That is ostensibly what we're doing here. I have my reservations about how that goal is being met as it seems like more and more complexity is being added back in since the pre-alpha proof of concept stuff I played. I like EW and command stuff in HG... but they absolutely slow the game down and I personally think the pendulum has swung too far at the moment towards slowing the game down. I like my decisions determining the chances of success (like moving, cover, actions, etc) but it seems like we're getting back to where we started in that there are too many mods to keep track of for a "quick" game and the defensive stuff has grown more (leading to more "nothing happened" rounds that typically happened in blitz and were pretty much hated).

That is the nitty gritty. You can't have a larger model count (and the 4-20 intended for this is larger than blitz in reality was) AND maintain the complexity without further increasing the play time which is already close to unbearable for alot of players. The 2-3 hour quasi-demos that I play (largely with the same player hence the "quasi" demo as he's partly familiar due to yearly games I harangue him into doing) involve only 6 models per side with my already simplified house rules. I'm afraid that the HG of the future is not what fans of the complexity of the old RPG/Tactical or even Blitz games are used to and enjoy.


I would like to see the molds myself, but the fact is that won't be coming on for another 2 or 3 months, depending on purchasing everything necessary to get it all set up. Then again, maybe it will take a little longer, or maybe I will get a surprise and they are able to do it in record time with the new manufacturer.

If you want to jump into the open Beta, there are a few different places still to get HG pewter miniatures for a fair price, and you wouldn't need that many to get the jump on things while you wait for the Kickstarter set to be sent.


Brandon, I think you're seriously underestimating that time frame. I've only pledged for one KS but I've followed relatively closely probably a dozen more and I don't think any of the larger ones that were more than just one or two sprues had anything even remotely close to a mould done in 2-3 months. I'd expect them to get the moulds done in 6-8 months assuming EVERYTHING goes as planned without any hiccups.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 18:08:54


Post by: riker2800


 warboss wrote:
I have my reservations about how that goal is being met as it seems like more and more complexity is being added back in since the pre-alpha proof of concept stuff I played.


This is where a lot of stuff is being working on at the moment, some rules are already been axed out. The number of rolling as also been reduced drastically, mostly in the EW and Order section.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 18:18:28


Post by: Firebreak


Small detail, but it's nice to see the faction badges get a little facelift. I still think the simpler versions should "remain in circulation", as it were, because they'll come across a bit better on a transfer, but it's cool to see some makeovers. Looking forward to the Northern leagues getting the same treatment!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
riker2800 wrote:Tactic is using many different options to achieve the goal you want to attain. Which most of the time is killing the other guy.


So to use a hypothetical fantasy game where armybuilding and balance are not an issue, I have the option of shooting him, close combating him, magicing him, and moving around to do all the above from a better position. Those are my options for achieving my goal. Swap out magic for "EW/command" and you've got a sci-fi game. (Yeah, I know it's not the same as shooting a fireball, but it essentially fills the same roll of "other beneficial stuff happening outside of movement and combat".)

In what way(s) does HG want for tactics? It has moving and shooting and magic, so it appears to a non-player that it's all there to be used. What gets in the way of using tactics/being tactical in HG?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 19:58:41


Post by: solkan


 Alpharius wrote:
Sorry to ask what has probably already been asked (maybe even by me!) and answered, but, what scale if this game in?

Thanks!


It's officially 1/144 scale.

I say that because if you're building terrain for those 25mm tall gears to move around in, you're likely to find yourself with a mix of 25mm buildings and scenery, 12mm buildings and scenery, and some "close enough" 15mm scenery.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 20:08:22


Post by: Alpharius


So close to 6mm scale?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 20:15:19


Post by: Reecius


Frontline Gaming backed this KS at the Retailer level! Looking forward to seeing it grow.

We also have an interview with Robert Dubois of DP9 coming up on the next episode of Signals from the Frontline, which we will repost here!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 20:36:36


Post by: BrandonKF


Close to 15mm scale.

Also, Stretch Goal 10 was switched by request of multiple folks.

Caprice Mounts were just unlocked.

"This update is to announce that we have decided to push back our Quick Start Rulebook Color Book Upgrade to a later stretch goal. It is being moved from slot 10 to slot 13.

This will move up the Caprice Mounts and BF2-19 CEF Frame stretch goals by one slot each. The Stretch Goal 10 at $87K is now to unlock the Caprice Bashan Mount plus Aphek, Kadesh, and Meggido conversion parts sprue and will add 4 Free Bashan/Conversion parts sprues to Core Starter Set.

Stretch goal 10 will also Unlock the Caprice and CEF Patches for $5 each and the Caprice Bashan/conversion parts sprue for $13 each Add-On Reward.

Below we have included a revised Stretch Goal info graphic to show the changes, this info graphic will replace the older one on the main page. Plus we have images of the Caprice and CEF patches that will be available once goal 10 is unlocked.

Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions on the stretch goals, we are listening and we appreciate your support."

So. Is it a good enough deal now Alpharius?

Edit : At Reecius, interested to see more retailers jump in and more news for the KS. See you then!

Second edit: warboss, if you say so I won't doubt your word concerning the molds. I just hope that if it does take that long the community will have playtester enough to solidify both the rules and the models for everyone to enjoy.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 21:03:57


Post by: solkan


The original four Caprice mounts in plastic are go!

 Alpharius wrote:
So close to 6mm scale?


The individual human infantry models are 12mm from base to top of head. (I measured the first one that came to hand, a forward observer person...)

The typical heavy gear is about an inch to an inch and a quarter from base to top of model.

So it's slightly smaller scale than Flames of War, but Flames of War terrain is likely to be "close enough" to use if you have some.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 21:20:57


Post by: Alpharius


It is damn close!

I love Mechs, and this scale...I'm close now...very close!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 21:21:50


Post by: BrandonKF


Thanks for clarifying that, solkan. I didn't catch the desire to use FoW terrain, and I haven't played that game either.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 21:27:27


Post by: Albertorius


 Alpharius wrote:
So close to 6mm scale?

12mm

This scale:


(I'd say "Space Marine" is more or less a generic ruler nowadays)


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 22:01:15


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 frozenwastes wrote:
I just wonder how typical I am these days. Do people actually care about games being fast and streamlined versions of previous rules?
Agreed, I find it hard to judge at times if my attraction or dislike for a game has to do more with the official presentation or due to how fan-based presentation may not reflect the actual rules & gameplay.

I also have had the same reaction that you and others pointed out about Infinity or another similar title despite the popularity those games enjoy; including models in a force just to let a single model do everything during actual play is pointless if not a waste of a player's $$$ and time.



 warboss wrote:
I've only pledged for one KS but I've followed relatively closely probably a dozen more and I don't think any of the larger ones that were more than just one or two sprues had anything even remotely close to a mould done in 2-3 months. I'd expect them to get the moulds done in 6-8 months assuming EVERYTHING goes as planned without any hiccups.
 solkan wrote:
The original four Caprice mounts in plastic are go!
I had been giving thought to coming up with the funds to pledge for some Frames or the CEF starter if the KS hit those levels, because they are so absurdly expensive in metal for their usefulness in some versions of the rules.
But now that the Pod has chosen to try and fund (3) different types of models for at least $6K less each than what was originally planned as the necessary amounts, on top of needing to add all (10) of those types to every core pledge if the campaign reaches those levels, forget it.

And, with better than two weeks yet to go in the campaign, that the company is spamming multiple threads on their own forums with the same updates plus lowering planned goals may give an impression that they once again do not want to be giving off.
I think putting a hold on certain models until another KS if that has to happen would probably be better for the company's exposure and reputation than giving the appearance of desperation or panic when only halfway through the very first funding campaign ever run by DP9.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 22:24:33


Post by: BrandonKF


Considering the fact that the levels continued to go for several days jumping between 86k and 85k, it feels to me like there were some individuals who were continually pledging and then unpledging, bobbing the target numbers and leaving folks in a state of flux that was ruining the forward momentum of the Kickstarter.

So if they lowered the Stretch Goals for the most desired models to accommodate those who want the Caprician models and the BF2-19 to help them achieve the even higher funding goals, than so be it. That's smart business in my book. If you get folks who are trolling just to play with folks by pledging and unpledging repeatedly, you get a bad image either way.

I don't know if that is the case or not, perhaps it was all innocence and some folks really were just having a hard time with their daily lives, but the fact that the $65 CAD reward levels were added and only 3 people have chosen to back at that level, with the number fluctuating between 4 or 5 folks who seemed to pledge, then unpledge, then repledge and unpledge, for 2 or 3 days, well, now there aren't anymore excuses for folks not to want to keep pledging. The company wants the KS to be successful, and it wants the community and newcomers to be happy. So they are accommodating the desires of the Backers, both present and future.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 22:38:23


Post by: Sinful Hero


BrandonKF wrote:
Considering the fact that the levels continued to go for several days jumping between 86k and 85k, it feels to me like there were some individuals who were continually pledging and then unpledging, bobbing the target numbers and leaving folks in a state of flux that was ruining the forward momentum of the Kickstarter.

So if they lowered the Stretch Goals for the most desired models to accommodate those who want the Caprician models and the BF2-19 to help them achieve the even higher funding goals, than so be it. That's smart business in my book. If you get folks who are trolling just to play with folks by pledging and unpledging repeatedly, you get a bad image either way.

I don't know if that is the case or not, perhaps it was all innocence and some folks really were just having a hard time with their daily lives, but the fact that the $65 CAD reward levels were added and only 3 people have chosen to back at that level, with the number fluctuating between 4 or 5 folks who seemed to pledge, then unpledge, then repledge and unpledge, for 2 or 3 days, well, now there aren't anymore excuses for folks not to want to keep pledging. The company wants the KS to be successful, and it wants the community and newcomers to be happy. So they are accommodating the desires of the Backers, both present and future.

I believe when a person goes back in to adjust their pledge(such as to add money for an add-on), it removes their old pledge total and it sometimes takes a while for them to post their new higher(or lower) total. This sometimes explains odd "bumpiness" in some campaigns.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 22:51:35


Post by: warboss


 Reecius wrote:
Frontline Gaming backed this KS at the Retailer level! Looking forward to seeing it grow.

We also have an interview with Robert Dubois of DP9 coming up on the next episode of Signals from the Frontline, which we will repost here!


Does that mean we'll be seeing the next round of "how to" HG videos being played on FAT mats? There's an old adage about scratching backs that comes to mind. Also, don't forget to post the link to the interview here in the thread.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/05 22:51:59


Post by: BrandonKF


I had heard about the adjusting of pledges affecting the levels, but for it to be going on for two or three days was odd. We went as high as $87k and then as low as $84.9 at one point.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 03:12:15


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:
Sure, folks are saying, I will wait until they go to retail, but if you know this Kickstarter will be given priority by the company for the Backers, wouldn't you want your stuff as soon as possible?


When it comes to Kickstarters, reliability is far more important than getting the miniatures before retail availability. As this is a new management team running a company with past issues doing something they've never done before, I want to see them make the product, send it to backers and then backers can post reviews, pictures and videos so I know it actually turned out okay. Then I'll order some at retail.

But give them money for a year in the hopes it turns out okay? When the amount of plastic miniatures being promised is really high compared to the amount of money raised?

Wait and see is the smart move here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote:There are only two solutions to this... you either

a) Decrease the intended model count... which makes less money for the company.
...
b) Decrease the rules complexity. That is ostensibly what we're doing here.


And you have to accomplish this while balancing the need to appeal to both existing customers and potential new ones.

While I am a 2nd edition fan, for Heavy Gear going forward, I can only advocate a complete reboot where the game is designed from scratch to meet the design goals of the company. I just don't believe that yet another revision of HG:B:L&L:1.1 will get there. I'd advocate for a complete cutting of the cord with 2nd edition and Blitz ideas as I don't think they're appropriate for today's retail gaming market unless you're trying for an appeal to existing players from back in the day like Catalyst does with Battletech.

Smilodon_UP wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
I just wonder how typical I am these days. Do people actually care about games being fast and streamlined versions of previous rules?
Agreed, I find it hard to judge at times if my attraction or dislike for a game has to do more with the official presentation or due to how fan-based presentation may not reflect the actual rules & gameplay.


Heavy Gear is an interesting situation where you basically have really loyal fans and then a bunch of people who check it out, maybe buy a starter and then never revisit it. It seems like it's aimed at a niche within a niche and now DP9 is in the awkward position of keeping existing customers while trying to develop new player and retailer friendly products.

I also have had the same reaction that you and others pointed out about Infinity or another similar title despite the popularity those games enjoy; including models in a force just to let a single model do everything during actual play is pointless if not a waste of a player's $$$ and time.


Yeah, I have a zero tolerance policy for cheerleading in Infinity. Though with 3rd edition I'm looking forward to taking a lot of E/M and hacking and isolating the super soldiers from their order pool. Normally if I know someone is taking a cheerleading army list, I'll just pass on the game and play someone or something else, but once 3rd truly hits, I may go cheerleader game hunting. I quit 1st edition because it was just endless cheerleading locally at a time when the game didn't have as many answers as it does today (and will have even more of in the near future with N3).

I think that there definitely seems to be quite a serious disconnect between what the rules intend and what the rules and force construction allow as things stand.
It's still a whole lot of skirmish oriented model & equipment swaps for a single combat group, in a ruleset that continues to be heavily melee oriented, but that at the same time is intentionally trying to up overall model count.


Spoiler:


EDIT:

Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels. Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?






Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 05:25:52


Post by: solkan


BrandonKF wrote:
Thanks for clarifying that, solkan. I didn't catch the desire to use FoW terrain, and I haven't played that game either.


I just mention the Flames of War terrain because it's pretty available in my area, and the desert buildings and a lot of the secondary terrain is easily adaptable to Heavy Gear, especially if you're aiming for badlands tables. I mean, I've got a 10 gallon storage box of that game's terrain, but I picked up my first Flames of War model (a box of M113's) to convert into placeholder APCs while I try some stuff out.

But "That's some nice terrain you guys got there. Want to see two squads of giant robots fight through that city?" makes a good line, I think, even if it's a bit anachronistic to have gears running through a WWII era village.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 06:14:18


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels.
Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?
This is definitely a question one of the fluff-gurus like Albertorius or Firebreak might have to look into if they don't already know.
As best I can recall offhand myself, the disembodied brain-in-a-jar idea was quite heavily hinted at in one or both of the War for Terra Nova books, and discussed on the forum at length, but I'm not at all sure a definitive answer was ever presented in a published product.

I think the arguments leaned towards the brain-in-a-jar view because there were also FLAIL controlled hovertanks & FLAIL piloted frames, not just power armored infantry.

On the practical side though, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because a force already dependent on high-tech equipment now has to maintain another type of intricate computer control system while lacking those physical bodied crewmembers that would normally perform the constant and necessary front-line maintenance for all of those vehicles.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 06:47:17


Post by: frozenwastes


 Smilodon_UP wrote:
I think the arguments leaned towards the brain-in-a-jar view because there were also FLAIL controlled hovertanks & FLAIL piloted frames, not just power armored infantry.


Right, forget how many flail controlled things there were.

On the practical side though, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because a force already dependent on high-tech equipment now has to maintain another type of intricate computer control system while lacking those physical bodied crewmembers that would normally perform the constant and necessary front-line maintenance for all of those vehicles.


I always got the sense that flails were more of a tactical insertion type force where they'd go out, do their mission and then be extracted rather than holding or patroling on the front line. And that there was some sort of advantage to having this degree of specialization in terms of an engineered brain-in-a-jar that would make having separate maintenance personal worth it.

I've had a fondness for brain-in-a-jar cyborgs since the 80s though, so maybe it's me just being fond of the idea.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 07:35:55


Post by: Albertorius


 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels. Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?


This is the original FLAIL fluff:

FLAILs
Front-Line Augmented Infantry Legionnaires are the CEF’s “upgraded” GRELs. In a distinctly uncharacteristic move, the CEF started offering veteran GRELs a chance to receive “upgrades” that let them utilize new equipment. Many accepted, some were forced, and even new GRELs who had not yet been woken up were sent to the Sandrakar-Xia Interworld facility on Botany Bay. Those that came back had a new designation and were wearing very sophisticated powered armor. After a few trials, the CEF has implemented mass upgrades, with the goal to have as many FLAILs as possible for the second assault on the colonies.

Scuttlebutt in the fleet is that these new units are far more obedient, able to react quicker, and are unnaturally aware of their surroundings. Only the scientists placed in charge of the FLAILs have seen them outside of the armored suits. Officers have been assured the upgrades have dealt with the personality “problem” and that FLAILs will respond much better on the field of battle than GRELs. FLAIL tanks are being outfitted and only FLAILs are able to pilot the main line Battleframes. Another very strange thing about the FLAILs is every unit seems equipped with a self-destruct mechanism that activates in case of severe damage or capture. While not enough to cause damage to a large area, it will turn the entire powered armor suit to slag, along with the user.


So, yeah, basically advertised as "upgrades" for the GREL, actually basically brains in jars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 frozenwastes wrote:

On the practical side though, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because a force already dependent on high-tech equipment now has to maintain another type of intricate computer control system while lacking those physical bodied crewmembers that would normally perform the constant and necessary front-line maintenance for all of those vehicles.

They are... a solution for a problem that kind of doesn't really exist, actually. The GRELs "personality problems" had all to do with their hypnotraining regime and nothing at all to do with the actual GRELs.

I always got the sense that flails were more of a tactical insertion type force where they'd go out, do their mission and then be extracted rather than holding or patroling on the front line. And that there was some sort of advantage to having this degree of specialization in terms of an engineered brain-in-a-jar that would make having separate maintenance personal worth it.

I've had a fondness for brain-in-a-jar cyborgs since the 80s though, so maybe it's me just being fond of the idea.

They probably would make more sense as ultra-special forces, yeah ^^


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 16:49:01


Post by: frozenwastes


 Albertorius wrote:


(I'd say "Space Marine" is more or less a generic ruler nowadays)


I was thinking a bit more about this picture. I think if I was relaunching the game and plastic was going to happen, I'd take the opportunity to make the miniatures more impressive than just being space marine equivalents.



I took the picture and grew the miniature up to being 1/87 like the very fist HG miniatures were. The miniatures weren't able to be maintained at that scale because the industry moved away from lead in the miniatures and price for the larger miniatures was thought to be just too high at that scale.

But we're talking plastic here. And the sprues are being 3d designed from scratch.

I imagine it's just like the rules though-- too much of a need to maintain the interest of the small current player base to do a proper relaunch from the ground up reconsidering everything.

Just making more space marine sized gears seems like a missed opportunity. Even if they do go with my (and other's) existing collections.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 19:50:05


Post by: Firebreak


Smilodon_UP wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels.
Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?
This is definitely a question one of the fluff-gurus like Albertorius or Firebreak might have


He beat me to it! (And frankly knows much more than I do anyways.)

Albertorius wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Also about the Flails. I thought they were brains in jars put into robotic bodies. Now the description makes them sound like power armour for grels. Or am I remembering my background wrong and they're actually cyborg grels rather than brains in a jar?


This is the original FLAIL fluff:

FLAILs
Front-Line Augmented Infantry Legionnaires are the CEF’s “upgraded” GRELs. In a distinctly uncharacteristic move, the CEF started offering veteran GRELs a chance to receive “upgrades” that let them utilize new equipment. Many accepted, some were forced, and even new GRELs who had not yet been woken up were sent to the Sandrakar-Xia Interworld facility on Botany Bay. Those that came back had a new designation and were wearing very sophisticated powered armor. After a few trials, the CEF has implemented mass upgrades, with the goal to have as many FLAILs as possible for the second assault on the colonies.

Scuttlebutt in the fleet is that these new units are far more obedient, able to react quicker, and are unnaturally aware of their surroundings. Only the scientists placed in charge of the FLAILs have seen them outside of the armored suits. Officers have been assured the upgrades have dealt with the personality “problem” and that FLAILs will respond much better on the field of battle than GRELs. FLAIL tanks are being outfitted and only FLAILs are able to pilot the main line Battleframes. Another very strange thing about the FLAILs is every unit seems equipped with a self-destruct mechanism that activates in case of severe damage or capture. While not enough to cause damage to a large area, it will turn the entire powered armor suit to slag, along with the user.


So, yeah, basically advertised as "upgrades" for the GREL, actually basically brains in jars.


Your usual pilot or soldier is going likely going think they're GRELs in sweet new armour, at least for a little while longer. A commander or spec-ops guy might know the truth though. Because they are technically power armoured GRELs, so why get into semantics with the regular schmucks?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 20:07:29


Post by: Albertorius


 frozenwastes wrote:



I took the picture and grew the miniature up to being 1/87 like the very fist HG miniatures were. The miniatures weren't able to be maintained at that scale because the industry moved away from lead in the miniatures and price for the larger miniatures was thought to be just too high at that scale.

But we're talking plastic here. And the sprues are being 3d designed from scratch.

I imagine it's just like the rules though-- too much of a need to maintain the interest of the small current player base to do a proper relaunch from the ground up reconsidering everything.

Just making more space marine sized gears seems like a missed opportunity. Even if they do go with my (and other's) existing collections.

1/87 scale plastic Gears would be awesome, true, but they are fighting against inertia here (as all their current player base uses 1/144 minis) and the size of the minis would probably run counter with their objective of bigger games.

That said, I'd certainly like to see that. And I would like even more to see them done in 28mm. That would rock my socks off. Imagine: a 28mm HG game with about a squad/cadre per side with supporting infantry/guns/small vehicles. <drools>

EDIT: Warboss was doing something similar, and I think it rocks:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/635230-Counts%20as%20TAGs%20VOTOMS.html?m=2


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/06 22:36:57


Post by: Dream Pod 9


Hi All,

Just want to update everyone on our first Kickstarter, its now half way through the campaign and we are now over $87K Pledged and have unlocked our 10th stretch goal.

We made an updated graphic of what's included in the War for Terra Nova - Core Starter Set with all the stretch goals that are unlocked so far, here it is for everyone to check out.



The other day we also previewed the new Acco light trooper Mount for the Caprice faction that is our next major stretch goal, the preview is below.



Thank you everyone for your support, and please help us by sharing this post with friends.

Here is a link to the Kickstarter for you to go check it out:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 03:47:17


Post by: frozenwastes


 Albertorius wrote:

1/87 scale plastic Gears would be awesome, true, but they are fighting against inertia here (as all their current player base uses 1/144 minis) and the size of the minis would probably run counter with their objective of bigger games.


Yeah, considering this project originally started as an idea to make another revision to the printed rules and only became about miniatures when the existing customer base told them they wanted plastic miniatures, there's just no way any real ground up changes in terms of either rules or miniatures would be made here.

That said, I'd certainly like to see that. And I would like even more to see them done in 28mm. That would rock my socks off. Imagine: a 28mm HG game with about a squad/cadre per side with supporting infantry/guns/small vehicles. <drools>

EDIT: Warboss was doing something similar, and I think it rocks:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/635230-Counts%20as%20TAGs%20VOTOMS.html?m=2


It's a shame votom models aren't easy to find right now. I think 28mm would be cool and the models a bit big, but GW and PP have shown people seem to want things like colossals, knights, trygons, and such. And even at 28mm, they wouldn't be that big as gears are like 15ft tall or so. I wonder if bigger gears could have also gotten crossover buying for people who might want to use them in other games like as 40k tau.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 04:50:20


Post by: BrandonKF


You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.

Blitz is for wargaming. Right now, for 102 American dollars, I think the Kickstarter is at a good place with the number of Models you can get.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 04:52:00


Post by: solkan


 frozenwastes wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

1/87 scale plastic Gears would be awesome, true, but they are fighting against inertia here (as all their current player base uses 1/144 minis) and the size of the minis would probably run counter with their objective of bigger games.


Yeah, considering this project originally started as an idea to make another revision to the printed rules and only became about miniatures when the existing customer base told them they wanted plastic miniatures, there's just no way any real ground up changes in terms of either rules or miniatures would be made here.


Arkrite Press, the folks who are going to working on the Heavy Gear RPG, are planning on doing some larger scale models. Probably for next year, although I don't know if any details have been announced yet.

That's your best bet for seeing Heavy Gear in a larger scale, I think. If you don't want to scratch build V-engines for 1/20 or 1/35 models kits.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 05:47:57


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.


I found the Arkite site very sparse with information about exactly what they will be producing. Has the production of 28mm scale gears been confirmed anywhere at all?

solkan wrote:
Arkrite Press, the folks who are going to working on the Heavy Gear RPG, are planning on doing some larger scale models. Probably for next year, although I don't know if any details have been announced yet.


I was saying that if you're going to take the opportunity to fund some plastics and relaunch the game, not making the actual central miniatures of the game a bit more impressive than space marine equivalents is a missed opportunity.

So far everything in this KS is just more of the same sort of stuff that DP9 has been doing since Blitz came out. It'll be cool for the existing player base and people who remember it from back in the day to get some plastic gears, but considering what a true relaunch kickstarter could have been, it doesn't really offer anything new as it's specifically designed to appeal to the existing anemic player base. As I posted earlier:



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 08:45:07


Post by: Albertorius


frozenwastes wrote:Yeah, considering this project originally started as an idea to make another revision to the printed rules and only became about miniatures when the existing customer base told them they wanted plastic miniatures, there's just no way any real ground up changes in terms of either rules or miniatures would be made here.

They're actually changing the core rules of the game, although probably it would be fairer to call it a revision. But their alledged goal seems to be for it to play faster with more minis (what the current system looks like right now is another thing).

It's a shame votom models aren't easy to find right now. I think 28mm would be cool and the models a bit big, but GW and PP have shown people seem to want things like colossals, knights, trygons, and such. And even at 28mm, they wouldn't be that big as gears are like 15ft tall or so. I wonder if bigger gears could have also gotten crossover buying for people who might want to use them in other games like as 40k tau.


A regular Hunter is 4.3m high, which in 1\56 scale would translate to about 7,67 cm high. Which would be at about 3'' high with a bit of change (EDIT: Standing absolutely upright, that is. I assume they usually wouldn't be). Seeing as going by the GW page an Imperial Knight is about 8'' high, I don't think it would be too much. It would basically be about the size of a SM dreadnought (a bit higher, less wide).

Taking that into account, I'd say that yes, the potential for crossover buying would certainly be high.

BrandonKF wrote:You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.

Yes. I also know that Arkrite has no current plans for doing a ruleset for them other than the RPG.

I would love to see a game with meaningful and characterful campaign rules, in the vein of games like Deadzone or the old Necromunda, which would allow a smallish force to advance and evolve.

Also, something like a 28mm version of HG Arena (only with rules that, you know, actually worked) would be really sweet.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 09:30:16


Post by: frozenwastes


 Albertorius wrote:

They're actually changing the core rules of the game, although probably it would be fairer to call it a revision. But their alledged goal seems to be for it to play faster with more minis (what the current system looks like right now is another thing).


I think it only really counts as a change of the core rules to those who are very familiar with the minutia of the revisions from Blitz, to L&L to 1.1 to field manual to whatever. It's seems to me to be pretty much the same branch of design, development and testing as everything that's come before. It's just another revision of a game that's failed to really work as a product for DP9 (as evidenced by the rapid rate of revisions and replacement of rules often before all the armies get updated from the last time) or for the gaming community (as evidenced by the failure of the game to spread even with things like Wayland and Beasts of War pumping it).


A regular Hunter is 4.3m high, which in 1\56 scale would translate to about 7,67 cm high. Which would be at about 3'' high with a bit of change (EDIT: Standing absolutely upright, that is. I assume they usually wouldn't be). Seeing as going by the GW page an Imperial Knight is about 8'' high, I don't think it would be too much. It would basically be about the size of a SM dreadnought (a bit higher, less wide).

Taking that into account, I'd say that yes, the potential for crossover buying would certainly be high.


I wasn't say they'd be analogous to knights or trygons, but simply that people are willing to get larger kits for their 28mm gaming these days. So you can still have larger tanks and whatnot. And even then, the gears wouldn't be that big. So it's not that much of a stretch in terms of sprue/kit design and production.

This whole KS seems to be an attempt to take an approach that hasn't worked well for years and then bank on KS marketing to get people to pre-pay for the same thing all over again. Let's do what hasn't worked in the past, but this time we'll get people to prepay a year in advance! What could go wrong?



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 09:36:23


Post by: BrandonKF


 frozenwastes wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:You already know the 28mm scale is under Arkrite.


I found the Arkite site very sparse with information about exactly what they will be producing. Has the production of 28mm scale gears been confirmed anywhere at all?


They speak specifically of using characters to start with. Gears themselves would need funding. The fact that it is sparse on information is their desire to get the rules done right. Hence the Test Pilot program.

solkan wrote:
Arkrite Press, the folks who are going to working on the Heavy Gear RPG, are planning on doing some larger scale models. Probably for next year, although I don't know if any details have been announced yet.


I was saying that if you're going to take the opportunity to fund some plastics and relaunch the game, not making the actual central miniatures of the game a bit more impressive than space marine equivalents is a missed opportunity.

So far everything in this KS is just more of the same sort of stuff that DP9 has been doing since Blitz came out. It'll be cool for the existing player base and people who remember it from back in the day to get some plastic gears, but considering what a true relaunch kickstarter could have been, it doesn't really offer anything new as it's specifically designed to appeal to the existing anemic player base. As I posted earlier:



You sound like someone who is convincing themselves not to give the new ruleset a chance. You have reiterated the same points that have already been covered by Smilodon, mrondeau and others.

This switch to plastics is intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game.

Nor just for the existing player base. Many of those involved already have PLENTY of miniatures to their collections to hold larger battles than 20 miniatures.

A proper relaunch, as you put it, would have been a new ruleset. IceRaptor did that with the new edition by changing the dice mechanics.

The company should listen to the players about the Beta. Clearly, they are, because the Beta will remain open until it can be finalized for the new players who decide to join in.

The rules should be free. They are. And they will remain free, and be placed in a living format that will be updated once every six months or yearly.

The miniatures should be affordable. With this KS, they are.

Do you have any new objections?

Because clearly for new players, this KS is everything you seem to think it isn't.

Edit: What do you call a "proper relaunch"?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 09:54:16


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:

You sound like someone who is convincing themselves not to give the new ruleset a chance.


Reading the rules gave me the sense that they're not worthy of a chance. It's a huge collection of technical complicated messes. Hyped up in the language of playing more fast and streamlined. All based on the fact that this Kickstarter originally started as a means of revising the rules for the existing player base and only switching to being about plastic miniatures because the existing player base asked for it.

The game isn't really growing. It's important to look at what a company has been doing if you want to evaluate how they might handle a Kickstarter. And it's not good news.

This switch to plastics is intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game.


And before that the starter sets were intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game. Hyped on Beasts of War, distributed by Wayland and yet... here were are back at another new version of the same game.

Just because something is intended to make it easier for new players doesn't mean that they'll stick around after getting their starters and trying the game out. I just don't see why this would be any different than when people got the last batch of Heavy Gear starters and didn't really stick around.

A proper relaunch, as you put it, would have been a new ruleset. IceRaptor did that with the new edition by changing the dice mechanics.


That's simply not sufficient to call it a new game. It's a revised dice mechanic plopped into the same pre-existing framework that didn't work in the past. It's still Blitz at its core, but with 8 years of convoluted development and then a rewrite that reads like software documentation. But it's not a new game, not really.

Because clearly for new players, this KS is everything you seem to think it isn't.


I think the KS is asking people to prepay a year out in order to experience pretty much the same thing that people have experienced with the last line of starters. A substandard set of rules and miniatures that are less impressive than space marines, but cost more.

Edit: What do you call a "proper relaunch"?


Product design from the ground up. Design a game of gear vs gear combat where you identify the types of decisions you want players to make. Where you craft the experience of each step of the game process. It may even work better as a miniature wargame/board game hybrid like Deadzone. And if the gears are supposed to be the cool thing about the Heavy Gear universe, I just don't think that space marine sized miniatures really pop enough.

A proper relaunch would be realizing what hasn't been working and electing not to go through another round of working the same plan, but somehow expecting different results.

At an absolute minimum, I'd expect a relaunch to have a really engaging set of quick start rules that people can use to jump in really easily. The Reaper CAV KS had the same issue-- here's a beta of a full rules set that you'll need to work through to really engage with this game. A relaunch should have finished, fun rules that aren't a barrier to people's interest.







Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 10:22:25


Post by: BrandonKF


 frozenwastes wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:

You sound like someone who is convincing themselves not to give the new ruleset a chance.


Reading the rules gave me the sense that they're not worthy of a chance. It's a huge collection of technical complicated messes all dressed up in the language of playing more fast and streamlined. All based on the fact that this Kickstarter originally started as a means of revising the rules for the existing player base and only switching to being about plastic miniatures because the existing player base asked for it.


Because the existing player base wants new players.

The existing player base isn't working. The game isn't really growing. It's important to look at what a company has been doing if you want to evaluate how they might handle a Kickstarter. And it's not good news.


If new players show up, yes it is good news.


And before that the starter sets were intended to make it easier for NEW players to get in the game. Hyped on Beasts of War, distributed by Wayland and yet... here were are back at another new version of the same game.


You mean the week they painted a pink Wildcat? Yeah, I was there for that. You think that was the look HG wanted?

The original Starter Set of 3 vs. 3 was limited. This Core Starter Set is 4 different factions for 102 dollars American.

Just because something is intended to make it easier for new players doesn't mean that they'll stick around after getting their starters and trying the game out. I just don't see why this would be any different than when people got the last batch of Heavy Gear starters and didn't really stick around.


And right now those old returning players and the existing player base is attempting to get the word out and to broaden the appeal to new players so they will stick around. What you see is what you see presented here.


That's simply not sufficient to call it a new game. It's a revised dice mechanic plopped into the same pre-existing framework that didn't work in the past.


It isn't a new game. Edit:But they want it to play as a game that will be fun for everyone who picks it up.


I think the KS is asking people to prepay a year out in order to experience pretty much the same thing that people have experienced with the last line of starters. A substandard set of rules and miniatures that are less impressive than space marines, but cost more.

Product design from the ground up. Design a game of gear vs gear combat where you identify the types of decisions you want players to make. Where you craft the experience of each step of the game process. It may even work better as a miniature wargame/board game hybrid like Deadzone. And if the gears are supposed to be the cool thing about the Heavy Gear universe, I just don't think that space marine sized miniatures really pop enough.

A proper relaunch would be realizing what hasn't been working and electing not to go through another round of working the same plan, but somehow expecting different results.


You call it substandard. That is the point behind the Beta is to make the ruleset work.

Out of all that, the most I got was that you think it would operate like Deadzone.

Are the Gears the cool thing about the Heavy Gear Universe? Sure. They make for a great antagonist, without going full-fledged Gundam Wing.

But they are by no means the only thing. With Blitz you can use combined arms as freely as you wish. Heavy Gear may have been titled that for the primary war machine, but they are not the only vehicle type to land on the tabletop. Designing the product to only aim towards Gears would make the entire idea of Gears being used in teams to war against advanced hovertanks and supersoldiers less ideal. The days of the old North versus South Interpolar War are well behind. A great time to visit in roleplaying opportunities, but it is limited for a tabletop miniatures game.

They elected to switch to plastic so new players can purchase in easily, but you call it prepaying. It isn't prepaying, it is a crowdfunding effort.

And while the idea of having a slick Quickstart rules guide is nice, they have already said they will give Backers a short Quickstart guide with the basics included for all the Backers. With more Backers and more playtesters and a broader community we can expect everything to come around very nicely.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 11:23:17


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:

Out of all that, the most I got was that you think it would operate like Deadzone.


What?! No. Why would you assume that? It was just an example inside a larger point that things need to be questioned in a far wider scope than they are. Like asking "is this game even the right format for a new heavy gear game?"

Because the existing player base wants new players.


So doing more of the same that hasn't really expanded the player base in the past is suddenly going to work this time around? Because you want it to?

And right now those old returning players and the existing player base is attempting to get the word out and to broaden the appeal to new players so they will stick around.


Getting the word out has nothing with them sticking around. The first deals with recruiting, the second with retention. The issue is going to end up being product experience once people try it. Just like was with the last rulebook release. People got their starter armies and read the rules therein and then... nothing.

This new version of the rules is the product of those who stuck around from the last version of the rules. Anyone who had different ideas has been slowly frozen out of the process. It's incestuous game design where you write to appeal to a narrow segment of the player base because they stuck around and then pretend it'll attract new blood and somehow, magically, keep them this time.

What HG really needs are for people to get their game and get their friends to try it and become the active force in their community for the playing of the game. If the Blitz rules worked as a foundation for such an approach, it would have worked already last time they tried it.

But they [gears] are by no means the only thing.


I didn't say they were the only thing. I said they were the cool thing. They're iconic to the setting. They're even eponymous. So if you're going to relaunch the game, then focusing on them would be smart. They take centre stage in this KS, for example. I mentioned them as the basis for a true relaunch because when it comes to HG, they are what makes it immediately recognizable and asking what goes on when gears fight gears can be the basis for game design from scratch.

But this KS isn't a relaunch. It's the next revision of Blitz in a long line of revisions. This is DP9 wanting to make a new rulebook, going to the existing customer base and finding out they are interested in plastic miniatures and then making a KS for a new starter set with the new rulebook and the plastic miniatures. My whole point is that this is a missed opportunity for a real relaunch of the brand.

Also, if you don't see paying and getting the product a year later (or more) as prepaying, I can't help you. Yes, it's also called crowdfunding. DP9 is asking people to give money in advance and get product much later. Just like any KS for product purchase.




If someone is backing this or thinking about backing it, they really should take the opportunity to download the PDF of the beta rules and give it a read through and ask themselves if they really want to play it. It'd be crappy to spend $100+, wait a year and then find out. And if it clicks with you? Great. You found a game you know you'll enjoy, so back the project.




Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 11:57:12


Post by: Albertorius


BrandonKF wrote:

The miniatures should be affordable. With this KS, they are.

That's relatively true. The current starter, at KS prices, is quite cheap, compared with the current minis line, yes.

But that is not the retail price, and DP9 has already said as much. So even with all these stretch goals unlocked, we don't really know how "affordable" will it be, once it hits retail.

And then there's the individual minis.

1 single plastic Hunter/Jäger for 5 bucks or 1 Jaguar/BM for $6 is... not bad, I guess, particularly taking into account the metal prices, but it's nothing to write home about either, for a Space Marine sized mini.

1 single plastic Grizzly/Spitting Cobra for 9 bucks is, again, cheaper than the current metal ones... but that was easy, because the current metal prices for those minis are kinda GW level. And $9 for a single plastic mini is not that cheap, either.

And then there's the mounts, that go for $13 each, in plastic. Again, affordable in comparison with current metal prices, not that much when compared with the whole of the market.

And once again, we don't really know how much will they cost at retail.

It is a great step in the right direction? Absolutely. Is really cheap, compared with other, comparable offers in the market. Well...


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 12:09:16


Post by: Morgan Vening


BrandonKF wrote:
They elected to switch to plastic so new players can purchase in easily, but you call it prepaying. It isn't prepaying, it is a crowdfunding effort.
My only concern here is the aftermarket cost. As with the other major "big stompy robot" game, I'm concerned for attraction of new player after the KS. Sure, the KS prices at the moment are pretty reasonable (and going to get better), but charging $100 for 16 miniatures, and $5-$9 + retail markup percentage on figures afterwards, may be problematic after the fact.

It's the same thing I see with Robotech. A disconnect between the people that got good/great deals on their product, and the new guy who's looking at having to pay at least $156 to just get the North/South figures (much more to add CEF/Caprice). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be offering significant deals. Don't get me wrong there. But as with Robotech, I think it gets lost on people how much these games will cost for people after the KS. Caprice Mounts at $52+ per squad. Are they going to be cheaper than the current metal versions? Sure. But with the end price likely to be higher, how much of a difference will there be?

I'm currently in for 4 core starters, because that gets me, for the most part (I have supreme faith we'll hit the 99K mark) 3 more than complete armies. But I'm looking at the add-on costs (and adding the aftermarket/shipping costs), and I'm honestly not sure, having already put in that much, how many, if any, I'll spend on getting more plastics, let alone having to pay current retail on tanks and infantry (if I want them in the near future).

I've been collecting the game since the cardboard box/standee/paper mat set, and have bought the rules/background books for quite a while (I'm very much OCBuyer in that regard). On the bookshelf, it's about 25" across the spines. But I never got into the miniatures, because it was just prohibitively expensive to have anything more than token forces. The KS allows me to get a large bulk of stuff at a reasonable price. But if I'd missed the KS, or as a theoretical "New buyer", I doubt I would buy in.

TLDR- What Albertorius said.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 13:44:25


Post by: IceRaptor


BrandonKF wrote:

A proper relaunch, as you put it, would have been a new ruleset. IceRaptor did that with the new edition by changing the dice mechanics.


I changed significantly more than just the dice mechanics - but I think it's correct to say that the Beta is a refinement of ideas expressed in Blitz and L&L rather than a 'new ruleset'. What substantially changed was how you roll dice - but most other concepts remain close to where they were in Blitz. There are differences, sure - but things like activation remain the same, the general premises of weapons and how you do damage remains mostly the same, etc. Changes in how the math is expressed doesn't imply changes in the core of the game, which I think is where frozenwastes is coming from. This is one of those things where what your definition of a 'new ruleset' is will determine if you think the Beta is a new ruleset, or not.



Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 13:49:51


Post by: BrandonKF


Albertorius wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:

The miniatures should be affordable. With this KS, they are.

That's relatively true. The current starter, at KS prices, is quite cheap, compared with the current minis line, yes.

But that is not the retail price, and DP9 has already said as much. So even with all these stretch goals unlocked, we don't really know how "affordable" will it be, once it hits retail.

And then there's the individual minis.

1 single plastic Hunter/Jäger for 5 bucks or 1 Jaguar/BM for $6 is... not bad, I guess, particularly taking into account the metal prices, but it's nothing to write home about either, for a Space Marine sized mini.

1 single plastic Grizzly/Spitting Cobra for 9 bucks is, again, cheaper than the current metal ones... but that was easy, because the current metal prices for those minis are kinda GW level. And $9 for a single plastic mini is not that cheap, either.

And then there's the mounts, that go for $13 each, in plastic. Again, affordable in comparison with current metal prices, not that much when compared with the whole of the market.

And once again, we don't really know how much will they cost at retail.

It is a great step in the right direction? Absolutely. Is really cheap, compared with other, comparable offers in the market. Well...


Morgan Vening wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
They elected to switch to plastic so new players can purchase in easily, but you call it prepaying. It isn't prepaying, it is a crowdfunding effort.
My only concern here is the aftermarket cost. As with the other major "big stompy robot" game, I'm concerned for attraction of new player after the KS. Sure, the KS prices at the moment are pretty reasonable (and going to get better), but charging $100 for 16 miniatures, and $5-$9 + retail markup percentage on figures afterwards, may be problematic after the fact.

It's the same thing I see with Robotech. A disconnect between the people that got good/great deals on their product, and the new guy who's looking at having to pay at least $156 to just get the North/South figures (much more to add CEF/Caprice). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be offering significant deals. Don't get me wrong there. But as with Robotech, I think it gets lost on people how much these games will cost for people after the KS. Caprice Mounts at $52+ per squad. Are they going to be cheaper than the current metal versions? Sure. But with the end price likely to be higher, how much of a difference will there be?

I'm currently in for 4 core starters, because that gets me, for the most part (I have supreme faith we'll hit the 99K mark) 3 more than complete armies. But I'm looking at the add-on costs (and adding the aftermarket/shipping costs), and I'm honestly not sure, having already put in that much, how many, if any, I'll spend on getting more plastics, let alone having to pay current retail on tanks and infantry (if I want them in the near future).

I've been collecting the game since the cardboard box/standee/paper mat set, and have bought the rules/background books for quite a while (I'm very much OCBuyer in that regard). On the bookshelf, it's about 25" across the spines. But I never got into the miniatures, because it was just prohibitively expensive to have anything more than token forces. The KS allows me to get a large bulk of stuff at a reasonable price. But if I'd missed the KS, or as a theoretical "New buyer", I doubt I would buy in.


@Albertorius, With the whole of the market, I can't speak for how cheap you can get comparable figures across the board. Then again, I would want to look for affordability, and also quality.

I do not know how others view Heavy Gear's product line, but in the history of my purchasing their miniatures, I am not displeased with the quality of the miniatures themselves.

The question of these plastic miniatures' quality and their level of detail is something that should be addressed by the company, absolutely, but I am willing to pledge and wait to see the results. So far I have had no complaints from their existing lines.

@Morgan, Personally I am hoping that the retail price mark-up is not as significant as the aforementioned 50%. I would prefer it be kept within the 20% margin, if at all possible. The Kickstarter is already a very successful one, as you said, and it would be great if more retailers and distributors caught onto it and began getting into it. Often, from what I read among fans, the retailers are either die-hards who won't support something from Dream Pod 9, due whether to the RAFM change or due to previous editions' changes, or they won't support something that they feel will just collect dust on their shelves. In this I can't convince a retailer to take risks if they see it as such, but I would want to bug their ears a bit.


frozenwastes wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:

Out of all that, the most I got was that you think it would operate like Deadzone.


What?! No. Why would you assume that? It was just an example inside a larger point that things need to be questioned in a far wider scope than they are. Like asking "is this game even the right format for a new heavy gear game?"

Because the existing player base wants new players.


So doing more of the same that hasn't really expanded the player base in the past is suddenly going to work this time around? Because you want it to?

And right now those old returning players and the existing player base is attempting to get the word out and to broaden the appeal to new players so they will stick around.


Getting the word out has nothing with them sticking around. The first deals with recruiting, the second with retention. The issue is going to end up being product experience once people try it. Just like was with the last rulebook release. People got their starter armies and read the rules therein and then... nothing.

This new version of the rules is the product of those who stuck around from the last version of the rules. Anyone who had different ideas has been slowly frozen out of the process. It's incestuous game design where you write to appeal to a narrow segment of the player base because they stuck around and then pretend it'll attract new blood and somehow, magically, keep them this time.

What HG really needs are for people to get their game and get their friends to try it and become the active force in their community for the playing of the game. If the Blitz rules worked as a foundation for such an approach, it would have worked already last time they tried it.

But they [gears] are by no means the only thing.


I didn't say they were the only thing. I said they were the cool thing. They're iconic to the setting. They're even eponymous. So if you're going to relaunch the game, then focusing on them would be smart. They take centre stage in this KS, for example. I mentioned them as the basis for a true relaunch because when it comes to HG, they are what makes it immediately recognizable and asking what goes on when gears fight gears can be the basis for game design from scratch.

But this KS isn't a relaunch. It's the next revision of Blitz in a long line of revisions. This is DP9 wanting to make a new rulebook, going to the existing customer base and finding out they are interested in plastic miniatures and then making a KS for a new starter set with the new rulebook and the plastic miniatures. My whole point is that this is a missed opportunity for a real relaunch of the brand.

Also, if you don't see paying and getting the product a year later (or more) as prepaying, I can't help you. Yes, it's also called crowdfunding. DP9 is asking people to give money in advance and get product much later. Just like any KS for product purchase.




If someone is backing this or thinking about backing it, they really should take the opportunity to download the PDF of the beta rules and give it a read through and ask themselves if they really want to play it. It'd be crappy to spend $100+, wait a year and then find out. And if it clicks with you? Great. You found a game you know you'll enjoy, so back the project.




I believe the history behind the rules' editions has already been explained enough here to warrant just dropping it.

As to the right format for the game, I guess you and I just have very different ideas of how a wargame is played.

As to doing more of the same, no.
Do I want the community to broaden? Yes.

And I think you are missing the point about the existing player base wanting the rulebook versus wanting plastic miniatures.

So I will use this from the DP9 forums to explain what went down:

From Dave to the fans for the Poll about a Kickstarter in August of this year (2014).

"Originally we had been very adamant about the kickstarter being a rulebook kickstarter only, with no miniatures component.
Our intention was to have a successful kickstarter and then leverage that into a kickstarter for a new starter set using plastic models to reduce to cost of entry for players into Heavy Gear by a factor. having reviewed our feedback on this concept we have now concluded that the goal of the kickstarter may have to modified to raise the interest and exposure of Heavy Gear in a kickstarter campaign.

Responding to feedback:
As we have read from the initial feedback from our kickstarter announcement on facebook and from here on the forums the concept of a book is not driving player imaginations wild.
Realigning the kickstarter's goals from a book to a Starter set with plastic figures, basic materials for playing (dice, tokens, card terrain, minimized rulebook with limited models listed) would mean pushing back the planned production of a core rule book, possibly for a year, possibly longer. The Online Beta PDF would continue to be the defacto organized play rules with printings of the rules in paper being available only at limited times. Ideally this would be supplemented by a living rule book on a dedicated App platform or a website.

Target product:
All the options we are considering vis a vis a miniatures kickstarter would consist of a starter set. The goal would be to create a high value set that would provide an easy point of entry to the game for a new player. Established players would benefit from this influx of new players and could access new poss for classic models.

Goals:
As the poll indicates there are several options regarding the composition of a starter set.
our goal would be a set with a minimum of two units a side, either Gears vs Gears, or Gears vs light hovertanks with infantry (CEF) with a target of 20-30 models not including terrain.
Our target price point would be a MSRP of $60-80 USD.
The model count could vary but There would likely be no more than 5-7 different models in the set (though some variety in poses, or parts for assembly). Keeping the model count low would allow us to use some already existing 3D files to be used thus getting the molds cut sooner and considerably shorten the time between closing the kickstarter and shipping out completed starter set rewards to players..

Diligence:
Because we believe in covering all the angles we have already completed some basic due diligence regarding the costs associated with creating a new starter set for Heavy Gear. Regardless of the final form and contents of a kickstarter campaign we believe it would be feasible to complete either a starter set project or a book project before Gencon 2015 (Rewards shipping early June 2015). Dream pod 9 has almost 20 years experience bringing products to market.

Thank you for your responses and enthusiasm! If we take the plunge and commit to a miniatures kickstarter I am sure it would be a success thanks to our fans.
The poll will cease to be effective on the 15th of September. After that time a decision will have to be made regarding the kickstarter so that preparations can begin. We aim to make this process transparent and receptive to backer ideas and feedback so let us know what you think by responding to this thread, completing the short poll, and leaving a message with your feedback."



Since the time of that post, it became clear that the Beta would not adequately be made ready for both existing fans or for any new fan by the time period suggested.

Dave and Robert both have been open about that fact, and as a result of that, they opted instead to do a single quickstart ruleset with the modified Beta rules when those rules have been finalized. Since the intended shipping date of this KS has been pushed back to November of 2015 (instead of the previously mentioned Gencon 2015), that gives many new players the opportunity to step up and affect change in the game by asking questions on the Beta development forums and also by posting their findings when they have.

Here is what one Pledger had to say on the comments recently:

"Gotta say, I'm impressed with how this campaign has been run, so far. The Pod has been very responsive to questions and feedback from backers - the home page keeps getting better organized and more attractive with the addition of graphics and background info. Shifting the stretch goals to maximize the value of the starter box was a very good idea. The stretch goals themselves were well thought out, and the time frame achievable. I commend the Pod for committing to having the models produced in North America. The comments have been a breath of fresh air as well. Minimal complaining, and many helpful posts and links provided to acclimate backers unfamiliar with the rules or setting. The overall atmosphere is very positive. Kudos to all."

So now you know that we as a community, and Dave and Robert in the company, have been addressing returning fans as well as newer individuals who haven't seen Heavy Gear.

I invite new individuals to Pledge and ask any questions they might have in the Kickstarter comments. Or, feel free to join my Facebook Group over at Terra Nova DMZ - Heavy Gear Universe Fans. We have members across the U.S., Australia, Canada, and Spain, to name a couple, and players, be they old fans or newcomers, are more than welcome to ask whatever questions they might have.

Edit:

I changed significantly more than just the dice mechanics - but I think it's correct to say that the Beta is a refinement of ideas expressed in Blitz and L&L rather than a 'new ruleset'. What substantially changed was how you roll dice - but most other concepts remain close to where they were in Blitz. There are differences, sure - but things like activation remain the same, the general premises of weapons and how you do damage remains mostly the same, etc. Changes in how the math is expressed doesn't imply changes in the core of the game, which I think is where frozenwastes is coming from. This is one of those things where what your definition of a 'new ruleset' is will determine if you think the Beta is a new ruleset, or not.


I see. Thank you for correcting my previous statements Ice. Also thank you for explaining where frozenwastes is coming from. But I fail to see how the core of the game needs changing.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 13:50:17


Post by: IceRaptor


 frozenwastes wrote:

I didn't say they were the only thing. I said they were the cool thing. They're iconic to the setting. They're even eponymous. So if you're going to relaunch the game, then focusing on them would be smart. They take centre stage in this KS, for example. I mentioned them as the basis for a true relaunch because when it comes to HG, they are what makes it immediately recognizable and asking what goes on when gears fight gears can be the basis for game design from scratch.


Very well said. Historically this has been one of the major disconnects between fans of the the RPG and fans of the Wargame. IMO the market is by and large interested in the Giant Stompy Robots, and the combined arms is a nice addition. So designing the game to feature the GSRs makes sense. However, the background places them in a strange place where they are essentially disposable IFVs. You can make both of those stresses work; but it's natural to swing too far to one side or the other and each person's perspective decides if it's too much a change or not. Warboss was very good about reinforcing this point during pre-Alpha and I owe him quite a bit of gratitude for the sanity checks during that time.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 13:54:58


Post by: frozenwastes


 IceRaptor wrote:

I changed significantly more than just the dice mechanics - but I think it's correct to say that the Beta is a refinement of ideas expressed in Blitz and L&L rather than a 'new ruleset'. What substantially changed was how you roll dice - but most other concepts remain close to where they were in Blitz. There are differences, sure - but things like activation remain the same, the general premises of weapons and how you do damage remains mostly the same, etc. Changes in how the math is expressed doesn't imply changes in the core of the game, which I think is where frozenwastes is coming from. This is one of those things where what your definition of a 'new ruleset' is will determine if you think the Beta is a new ruleset, or not.


I actually like the new dice mechanic. I think it's relatively quick and gives a nice answer to "did you succeed and how well?". For me the issue comes with the overall approach of trying to take a technical game with lots of separate elements/subsystems and try to force it into being fast play. I love games with lots of technical elements. I play Battletech and even have no issues with Federation Commander/Star Fleet Battles. I like some fast play games too (Song of Blades & Heroes, Dux Bellorum, DBA, etc.,). I just think the problems with the beta are from tweaking existing frameworks rather than starting with the design goals and designing from scratch to accomplish them.

When you're revising or making a new edition of a game that's not growing, you're caught between a rock and a hard place. Either you design to appeal to existing customers and likely continue to decline, or take a huge, huge risk and design from scratch. I know I'm really hard on the Blitz approach to Heavy Gear and have criticized DP9's current approach to development/testing rather strongly, but I just don't see how doing more of the same is going to produce different results.

The current zeitgeist at DP9 appears to be the same as at GW. Models matter and rules are there to sell them. So the rules just need to be an idea to get people buying miniatures. That's the feeling I'm getting and I'm guessing people who have contributed to the alpha, beta and other testing in the past have felt obstructed by the company's design culture.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 14:13:41


Post by: IceRaptor


 frozenwastes wrote:

For me the issue comes with the overall approach of trying to take a technical game with lots of separate elements/subsystems and try to force it into being fast play.


These systems I think you're referring (EW, Command, Support, etc) were torn down from their prior incarnations and then rebuilt to specific design ideals. The approach pre-Alpha was to create the kitchen sink and refine backwards, until you had a streamlined product that could meet the playtime to model ratio desired. We threw everything together and intended to refine or remove pieces until what you had enough tactics to make the game interesting to play at medium model counts (8-12 per side) and not completely deadlocking at higher counts (20+ per side). As you've pointed out the goal of the edition was supposed to be to make the mechanics easier, not to add or remove functionality from the game. Which is why I agreed it's essentially another edition, rather than a 'new ruleset'.

It looks like the Beta retained many more elements from the pre-Alpha than I would have expected personally - but there may be a rationale behind keeping all of that complexity that I'm not aware of. I know they are actively talking about simplifying EW right now on the main forums, which I think is a good sign that the Beta is mutable enough to be more of an 'Alpha' than a 'finished product'. With additional refinements they can probably reach the original goals of making everything simpler to play without losing all of the rich options from the setting. The plan for the rulebook I think is for it to be updated frequently, but I don't know if that will cover core systems or not. I'm reserving judgement for a few months after the kickstarter to see if they continue this forward momentum or not.

 frozenwastes wrote:

When you're revising or making a new edition of a game that's not growing, you're caught between a rock and a hard place. Either you design to appeal to existing customers and likely continue to decline, or take a huge, huge risk and design from scratch.


It's more a spectrum than a binary decision, but yes - you have to decide how much you're going to change to appeal to new players and how much you retain to keep existing players. I know for a fact that they lost players because the multiplication of damage was dropped - but that other people were now interested in the system because you didn't have to figure out what (19 * 4) /13 was to calculate damage. There are many reasons (that I won't articulate here) that a middle of the road approach was taken, and in the end the market will decide if that was a good choice or not.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 14:15:00


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:

As to the right format for the game, I guess you and I just have very different ideas of how a wargame is played.


I don't think there is "how a wargame is played." I think every game should have the "how" that accomplishes the goals of the designer in terms of desired player experience.

As for the remainder of your post, all I can say is you have a wonderful skill at addressing points I'm not making. Thus, I disagree with very little that you said.

I see. Thank you for correcting my previous statements Ice. Also thank you for explaining where frozenwastes is coming from. But I fail to see how the core of the game needs changing.


The most obvious reason I can give for why it does need changing is the simple fact that it hasn't worked. Other companies over the last few years have seen massive increases in market share and massive success selling and spreading their game. Heavy Gear continues to have an anemic fan base. There's something about the game itself that isn't grabbing people. It seems like it's a rare individual that really clicks with the game and that's designing a game like that is a pretty poor plan if you want to expand your customer base.




Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 14:18:01


Post by: BrandonKF


@IceRaptor, you might also want to know that Dave has already been playtesting with his group and has been exposing several ideas to eliminate some of the more extraneous rules.

Both We're In Trouble and Hull-Down are currently on the chopblock:

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16653

And he is also discussing rewriting the Persistent Damage rules.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16640&page=1


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 14:25:16


Post by: riker2800


Also, the AT and AP rule are being merged as one with a new way of doing damage, stay tuned for update coming!


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 14:35:39


Post by: IceRaptor


BrandonKF wrote:
@IceRaptor, you might also want to know that Dave has already been playtesting with his group and has been exposing several ideas to eliminate some of the more extraneous rules.


Great, I'm glad to hear that. I (as previously stated) hope that trend continues because I think it's good for the game.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 14:46:26


Post by: frozenwastes


 IceRaptor wrote:

These systems I think you're referring (EW, Command, Support, etc) were torn down from their prior incarnations and then rebuilt to specific design ideals.


Those systems are certainly part of it. My concern is more with the underlying structure that all these systems sort of plug into. Like how the new dice mechanic sort of plugged into it. The larger turn structure and the decisions made by the player seem to pretty much stay the same-- you just use different numbers and roll different dice to produce a result.

The approach pre-Alpha was to create the kitchen sink and refine backwards, until you had a streamlined product that could meet the playtime to model ratio desired. We threw everything together and intended to refine or remove pieces until what you had enough tactics to make the game interesting to play at medium model counts (8-12 per side) and not completely deadlocking at higher counts (20+ per side).


This approach does make me wary. I get the sense that if the goal was to have 10 models per side take X time, then you'd start with 10 models per side and design from there rather than making everything and cutting back with tweaks. Or start with a big list of "things that should/could happen in a game of Heavy Gear" and try to make it work from there. What should the players do during the game? What should they decide? How often should the situation change in terms of a turn structure and how does that impact the decision making? When a player wants to do something from the list of things that should happen, what does it mean in terms of play experience? For example, what does it "mean" to use electronic warfare as a game decision? As a human, standing there and moving miniatures around, saying things to the opponent and rolling dice.

I think starting with the pre-existing Blitz framework in place means that a lot of these questions become fairly limited in their range of possible answers.

It's more a spectrum than a binary decision, but yes - you have to decide how much you're going to change to appeal to new players and how much you retain to keep existing players. I know for a fact that they lost players because the multiplication of damage was dropped - but that other people were now interested in the system because you didn't have to figure out what (19 * 4) /13 was to calculate damage.


I like multiplication but think the new system still gets the same sort of "did you succeed and how well" answer in a faster way. I don't really like division though and tended not to use it. I always thought target numbers for the different results worked pretty well at the time:


Now that I think about it, this is definitely a player experience issue. You can either have the procedure be that you solve x=(19 * 4) /13 or you can create a back and forth which includes looking at a little three line chart in order to get rid of one part of the equation (/13). Or you can replace it with a different dice mechanic where you still have margin of success, but now do something else with it (which I did like). But what doesn't change is the basic framework of what it means to shoot at an opponent's model. It's still a process that involves the same basic framework whether you solve for x, look up part of it on a chart or use a new dice system. The overall frame work is still to check for modifiers, roll dice and use skill and modifiers to generate MOS and then use weapons and armour values to figure out final damage. And this frame work isn't just a Blitz one, it's all of Heavy Gear going back to 1st edition.

So does that mean it's sacrosanct? That it can never be done a different way and still be Heavy Gear? I'm not so sure. Especially if the existing approach isn't having the same success as other games on the market over the last half decade. I'm also not convinced that having all these subsystems/functions get called as players making decisions is really all that great either. Instead of a bolted on special rule, I tend to prefer trying to find a way to use the existing resolution mechanic to have the experience be more emergent. Infinity N3 is doing this with hacking, which will now use the same system as a weapon attack rather than have its own bolted on subsystem. Why? To maximize face-to-face rolls as they are central to the player experience of playing infinity (I'm talking about the experience of the players actually both picking up dice and rolling and seeing who got their way).

There are many reasons (that I won't articulate here) that a middle of the road approach was taken, and in the end the market will decide if that was a good choice or not.


I actually think it only really looks like a middle of the road approach because familiarity with the differences between blitz, l&l, 1.1, field manual, pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc., make the differences look bigger than they actually are. I think it's very, very easy to alienate an existing customer with small differences because they've got their noses pressed against the page, so to speak, so I get it though.

The real challenging part is going to be post-kickstarter. Taking the cash and using it for both operations and project development in such a way that all the backer rewards get filled in the projected time frame and all the products for retail sale get developed and distributed. It'll also be interested for DP9 in terms of learning about just how many backers are new and how many are repeat customers and watching and seeing if there's a direct sales revenue drop as people who might have bought $100 worth of Heavy Gear models in December don't because they pledged for this instead. The more new (and regained former) customers, the less likely it will be that it could be an issue.

My estimation is that there will be another KS of some sort this time next year. Perhaps for the printing of the rules, perhaps for more miniatures being converted into plastic. I'm also going to predict that it'll happen before everything for this KS has completely shipped. It's an approach worked for Onyx Path for keeping revenue coming in off of the World of Darkness RPG lines that no longer really have a retail market. So maybe DP9 can keep doing KS and related internet marketing and create their own segmented market through Kickstarter like Onyx Path has for the WW RPGs.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 15:29:47


Post by: IceRaptor


 frozenwastes wrote:

Or start with a big list of "things that should/could happen in a game of Heavy Gear" and try to make it work from there. What should the players do during the game? What should they decide? How often should the situation change in terms of a turn structure and how does that impact the decision making?


Some of that design work was present - but the body of work also grew out of houserules designed to make L&L faster, so there wasn't as much as a ground-up redesign. A large part of the flaws in the process can be attributed to my inexperience - this was my first time 'designing' any sort of wargame system. In hindsight there are things that could have been made better, but weren't. But that's the nature of experience - you understand too late what went wrong!

And to be fair to Dave - I contributed most of the mechanics, but he has run with it for more than a year at this point. So I'm only discussing my exposure to the process, not what's happened since the point that I left the design team.

 frozenwastes wrote:

I actually think it only really looks like a middle of the road approach because familiarity with the differences between blitz, l&l, 1.1, field manual, pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc., make the differences look bigger than they actually are. I think it's very, very easy to alienate an existing customer with small differences because they've got their noses pressed against the page, so to speak, so I get it though.


Fair point. My closeness to the process poisons my view of it. So that's a fair criticism.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 15:47:46


Post by: frozenwastes


 IceRaptor wrote:

Some of that design work was present - but the body of work also grew out of houserules designed to make L&L faster, so there wasn't as much as a ground-up redesign. A large part of the flaws in the process can be attributed to my inexperience - this was my first time 'designing' any sort of wargame system. In hindsight there are things that could have been made better, but weren't. But that's the nature of experience - you understand too late what went wrong!


I don't really think too much went wrong in terms of the goals for a rewrite that doesn't change the core player experience too drastically. I think keeping the framework the same and the bolt-on subsystem approach was likely non-negotiable in the end. I may think a more ambitious redesign would be better, but DP9 clearly wants to keep doing down the Blitz development path and I think you gave them what they wanted (to what degree it has been properly appreciated, I don't want to comment on).

You coloured within the lines and made some real contributions. "Highest die + 1 for each die over n, compare with opponent for MOS" is a great way to determine MOS and do away with division. The level of ground up redesign I'd want to see was simply outside the scope of this project. I consider it a missed opportunity, but it's certainly not your missed opportunity, but DP9s. The level of change I'm advocating for is something only the person at the top could really lead and I'm guessing that's never going to happen.

Fair point. My closeness to the process poisons my view of it. So that's a fair criticism.


I don't think it's a criticism at all. Nor do I think your view is poisoned. I just have an outside perspective which conversely makes me not appreciate the nuances of the changes I can't really see due to a lack of familiarity.

I'm totally open to being wrong on this whole issue though. I'd love it if somehow the current development/play test procedure magically produces a great game despite the current testing "plan" of just sort of talking about whatever in a beta forum. I'd also love it if the miniatures arrive on time, end up being great value at retail and turn out great in terms of detail and kit engineering. While I may wish to let my meager collection fade from use and replace it with nice big gears like Warboss' scope dog kits, I'm willing to add more at 1/144 if they're good.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrandonKF wrote:

And he is also discussing rewriting the Persistent Damage rules.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16640&page=1


Just wanted to give some props here:

Dave on DP9 forums wrote:What is your opponent's response to those models? Can you use the weapons effectively? Is the resolution clean and simple?


Real player experience centred questions!

I don't think in four pages that anyone actually answered them though. There was a lot of theoretical discussion and one actual play report where the person gave a game summary just skipped to their conclusion that the change was in the wrong direction. He goes on to talk about power level and never actually addresses the questions.

Persistent Damage rules text wrote:9.6a Persistent Damage Penetration ratings and tokens:

Attacks with a Persistent Damage are noted with a PEN:X/Y rating where a X is the normal Penetration rating and Y is a number and letter combination that gives the token intensity limit of the persistent damage attack. Persistent Damage tokens are used to indicate and track the effects of persistent damage. The token will have an intensity equal to the MOS of the attack up to the maximum intensity rating of the weapon. Example: A flamer attack with MOS:3 hits a target. The flamer has a maximum intensity rating of 2F so the fire token placed on the model will have an intensity of 2. Damage is still calculated with a MOS of 3. If the attack had a MOS:1 then the fire token intensity would be 1.


I think dealing with this text needs to be thought of in terms of player experience as well. It's not the most inviting approach for getting backers for the KS into testing. I'd like to contrast it with this:

the text for the Hordes MK2 fieldtest wrote:Continuous Effects

Continuous effects remain on a model and have the potential to damage or affect it some other way on subsequent turns. A model can have multiple continuous effects on it at once, but it can have only one of each continuous effect type on it at a time. Resolve continuous effects on models you control during your Maintenance Phase.

First roll a d6 for each continuous effect; if the result is a 1 or 2 the continuous effect immediately expires without further effect. On a 3, 4, 5, or 6 the continuous effect remains in play. After rolling for expiration for all continuous effects, apply the effects of all continuous effects that remain in play simultaneously.

Continuous effects do not require fury points for upkeep and cannot be removed voluntarily. Remove a continuous effect only when it expires, a special situation causes it to end, or the affected model is removed from the table.


Hopefully this contrast is helpful.





Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 16:49:50


Post by: mrondeau


A few points.
First, changing the scale, again, would be a horrible idea. Do you want to finish killing the company reputation with the few retailers that gave them a chance and are already stuck with not-selling miniatures by making them literally unsellable ? 'Cause that's what another scale change would do. I'm not even going to start about the remaining players, and all those that DP9 discarded over the years.

Second, somehow, I doubt that selling plastic minis at (or near to) the price of the metal minis is going to solve any of DP9 problems. Especially since the real problem is not the first sale, it's player retention. The solution to that problem is to have good, balanced rules, and to truly support them. Not plastic minis.

Third, Ice, that design procedure is, honestly, the worse way to do it. I think you were overfocused on keeping the original components, rather than on keeping the original requirements, if you see what I mean. Modifying the "how", rather than the "why". It's better to start with essential requirements, figure out the bare minimum to meet those requirements and build up. Otherwise, you are wasting your time by designing rules to throw away, you are wasting the testers' time by making them test rules to throw away, and you will end up with rules that are more complex than they need to be since your pruning is not going to be perfect. Good design minimizes complexity as much as possible. Complexity, by itself, is bad. It takes some of the players' mental workload away from tactics and wastes it on the rules. It's also harder to balance, prone to weird interactions and corner cases, and makes it harder for the designer to build a good mental model of the game.
By building up, from the most essential elements, you ensure that you are working from a solid foundation at each step, the designer and the testers can learn the fundamentals of the game before working on the rest, and you know that every element in the game is essential.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 17:10:58


Post by: frozenwastes


mrondeau wrote:
A few points.
First, changing the scale, again, would be a horrible idea. Do you want to finish killing the company reputation with the few retailers that gave them a chance and are already stuck with not-selling miniatures by making them literally unsellable ? 'Cause that's what another scale change would do. I'm not even going to start about the remaining players, and all those that DP9 discarded over the years.


Yeah, it's something that could only be done in a total reboot. Like if HG actually died and someone was bringing it back later.

It's just that as someone with very little skin in the game (I think I own 8 gears all 1/144), I'm really impressed when I see nice big sci-fi kits and think the space marine sized ones are underwhelming.





Awesome!





Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 22:49:00


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 frozenwastes wrote:
The most obvious reason I can give for why it does need changing is the simple fact that it hasn't worked. Other companies over the last few years have seen massive increases in market share and massive success selling and spreading their game. Heavy Gear continues to have an anemic fan base. There's something about the game itself that isn't grabbing people. It seems like it's a rare individual that really clicks with the game and that's designing a game like that is a pretty poor plan if you want to expand your customer base.
These points definitely seem to be among those most pertinent to issues where perception(s) may diverge from reality.

I cannot easily recall, which I'm sure is not a unique experience for any fan of HG, how often I have heard in person or seen on a web venue direct or indirect comments and anecdotes where someone states "I love (or am attracted to) the setting of Heavy Gear, but [x]."

So yes, there is definitely a long-term unaddressed problem somewhere such as exposure, pricing, rules, community, company actions, or whatever if not a combination of factors.
And I think that while a KS may or may not help with some of that, in reality no campaign or possibly even multiple campaigns is going to magically fix everything as seems to be expected.

_
_


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/07 23:29:08


Post by: frozenwastes


 Smilodon_UP wrote:

I cannot easily recall, which I'm sure is not a unique experience for any fan of HG, how often I have heard in person or seen on a web venue direct or indirect comments and anecdotes where someone states "I love (or am attracted to) the setting of Heavy Gear, but [x]."

So yes, there is definitely a long-term unaddressed problem somewhere such as exposure, pricing, rules, community, company actions, or whatever if not a combination of factors.


Maybe I'm off in my thinking that the value of [x] is rules when it may actually be community and company actions. I've just seen multiple people have their interest fade once they actually crack open a rulebook and put models on the table to play. It's entirely likely that these people are going to DP9 for customer support like FAQs and rules clarifications and just finding abandoned Q&A threads. And discovering that the rulebook that came in their army is already out of date. So maybe even the rules issues are actually company action issues.

And I think that while a KS may or may not help with some of that, in reality no campaign or possibly even multiple campaigns is going to magically fix everything as seems to be expected.


A KS isn't going to fix any issues, it's just going to dump a lot of preorder dollars into DP9's bank account all at once. The real fun will be managing the funds through the product development process as DP9 figures out plastic production for the first time.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/08 06:00:56


Post by: warboss


 Albertorius wrote:


EDIT: Warboss was doing something similar, and I think it rocks:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/635230-Counts%20as%20TAGs%20VOTOMS.html?m=2


Thanks! It took me a while to get the models for a full squad and then I ran into a snag with the plastic reacting to spray primer (luckily I checked ahead of time on an unneeded bit). It's on hiatus at the moment. Even with me planning on using my modified blitz rules and really tiny forces (one squad of gears and an infantry section with an apc versus some LHT from my 40k collection), I don't think a 28mm scale model is practical for HG outside of just a display model or an RPG single character vehicle. I'd definitely prefer DP9 sticking with the current scale as they're planning.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/08 13:16:47


Post by: spaceelf


There was talk of why HG has not really caught on. Many people buy into the game. However, I have not seen local communities grow. I suspect that this may be caused by the sales that DP9 puts on periodically. They undercut retailers. The retailers in turn push other games, and local HG scenes die. Another point of note, is that most serious painters shy away from games at this scale. Thus HG needs to attract people with the game. I found blitz entertaining. It certainly was not balanced, but that was not a issue for me. The constant rule changes were a problem, and I am certain that they drove people away from the game.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 00:11:43


Post by: Chairman Aeon


spaceelf... I think DP9's problem isn't undercutting retailers, so much as nothing much moving at retail. It's hard to know if the old scale was a boon or bane. Back in the days of Nirvana those gears were $10 a pop and that was considered outrageous. There was no online sales because, well... early '90s.

My guess is the economics of the game make it a direct to customer type business. It's not like HG ever game Battletech a run for its money.

One of my personal observations of trying to recruit new players is that deputes the obvious anime aesthetics the rules are presented very conventionally as a war-game. The trade dress is more Battletech than Battletech. And the game is a bit clunky. I love the idea of throwing a handful of six-siders, but then the math sets in. For all the promise of the anti-Battletech, it's different not-so-much less complicated than its main competitor. Why is this a big deal? Because obviously the market still prefers Battletech and if you don't like the complexity of BT, then HG really isn't an alternative.

That all said and done, I'm in for $160 as I rummage around for my HO scale RAFM Gears.

Iain.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 00:24:27


Post by: warboss


I don't recall the old RAFM stuff being $10. IIRC, it was $4-$7 depending on which models (scouts at the low end, troopers in the middle, and the big FS at the upper end). One of the reasons I got into it was that it was so affordable at the time which made up for the relatively pricey books ($15 for a 30 page book like a vehicle compendium back when I could buy a Robotech book with 5x the page count for $5 more).


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 09:53:10


Post by: frozenwastes


The Canadian and US exchange rate explains the $10 vs $6 difference in the 90s.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 17:30:37


Post by: warboss


That could indeed account for it. Thanks for pointing it out as I didn't consider it.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 20:41:31


Post by: BrandonKF


I wasn't around for RAFM minis, so I can't comment.

Blitz went through a lot of revisions, but the longer this Beta goes on the more accustomed I become to the new dice mechanic. It isn't as difficult as I initially figured, but that was due more to my own train of thought being stuck in multipliers and comparing to armor ratings. The new PENvsAR mechanic and the use of the skills looked like Warhammer to me at first, but after reading IceRaptor's explanations and Dave'S own comments in the Beta Development forum and the Kickstarter I am growing used to it.

Just now they unlocked the Acco Mounts, so that is 4 more Accos to the package. The next big Stretch Goal is the BF2-19 Battle Frame, a monster in itself. It is the Grizzly of the Earther faction, fast but armored like a light tank.

They also updated with the variant weapon loadout for the Acco. I like how Warphound calls the flamethrower variant a Fire Ant. It is a nice little machine, I just hope to see the details get enhanced like they did with the MHT-95.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 21:12:58


Post by: frozenwastes


BrandonKF wrote:
Blitz went through a lot of revisions, but the longer this Beta goes on the more accustomed I become to the new dice mechanic. It isn't as difficult as I initially figured, but that was due more to my own train of thought being stuck in multipliers and comparing to armor ratings.


It's a neat little mechanic. It's got a few too many steps for a fast play game, but the beta isn't about 40 miniatures a side, so it's not out of place. Build your pool and roll them. Find the highest die, check the rest against a target number, add to the highest die, compare to the opponent's result. PEN/ARM step. Apply damage. Lots of steps when you write it out, but maybe quicker once you get used to it and you no longer have to think through each step.

To me, the thing that feels the most HGish in the rules is that how well you hit really matters. The new dice mechanic keeps that as the focus of every attack. Regardless of issues I have with the rules from the Blitz line of development (and the tax code like expression of the current rules) that is something they never abandoned.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/09 22:19:47


Post by: BrandonKF


One player asked a good question about an Attack roll and if it went under their Skill, was it an automatic miss.

The response was that the highest value stands. So, if your GUN skill is 4+ and you roll a 3 and a 2, you keep the 3 and compare it. Obviously the rules for that need clarifying, but the feedback on the Development forum is going very well.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/10 15:36:26


Post by: DP9Dave


Thanks for all your feedback guys. Certainly we're getting a lot of it these days but we're continuing with what we've started.

Just to clear a couple of things up so there's no confusion:

1) There will be no scale change in the future in Heavy Gear Blitz. We are officially 1/144 or 12mm for the duration. I would not be a party to a scale change that would invalidate so many players armies, and make so much retail stock that is out there obsolete.

2) Arkrite Press LLC will be producing some Heavy Gear collectibles under license to use in the 2nd Ed RPG reboot that they are producing. Watch their website for announcements regarding this.

3) The living rule book, currently in it's beta form, is on an open schedule of development. That means that the final release date of it has not been set because we are not yet done the development of the rules. As anyone watching the Dream Pod 9 forums will know i have started putting out previews of the changes that are coming with the Nov/Dec update. This update is important because it is the six month date from the first release of the rules in Beta form and a lot of players and posters have helped us learn in that time. Six months is a lot of time in terms of the internet but it is a not a lot of time if you want to put dice to the table and test ideas in a rigorous way. We're taking the time to test and ruminate on the effects and needs of the system. The early beta was about making sure the proverbial place setting had content. Now we're going to take some time to literally clean away some stuff (rules) that are not required.

4) We've had a LOT of discussion about rules direction on this thread, reliability and what actions Dream Pod 9 should take. We've committed to ongoing open communication through our forum and online, everyone is welcome to participate respectfully. Right now what you see is Dream Pod 9 taking direct action to secure the future of Heavy Gear using the Kickstarter method. This is happening right now and nothing is going to change that at this point. So go and pledge and become a backer if you haven't already, we need your support!

5) We are committed to completing this kickstarter before we start another one because it is a LOT of work running a kickstarter. Take your normal work day and then make it a month long social media marathon and you might be getting close to an idea. Props to everyone who runs crowd funding campaigns. This is by far the hardest way to earn a living that I know of, except for the Alaska crab fishermen, those guys are nuts. We are not crazy enough to run two Kickstarters concurrently, though that doesn't mean we won't start getting ready for the next one during any down time we have when getting the plastic molds made before we move into shipping mode to get those rewards out to our backers.

6) Question: Will the metal models still be available? Answer: Yes!
Running a kickstarter does not magically mean that those rubber metal molds have gone away. It would be economically unfeasable to reproduce the whole line in plastic simply due to the demand for them so we are not mothballing our in house metal production capacity. We recently adjusted the prices on our metal figures and re-packaging them in smaller unit boxes to cut a lot of the costs of packaging out of the equation. If you want alternate poses or parts in metal or just want an army filled with something a little off the normal track (Western Frontier Protectorate players, I'm looking at you with your Bears and Bobcats!) then there are a host of options for you, though it will cost a little more. That's the nature of the metal. But hey, with future Kickstarters anything does become possible, even other forces and colonies that are only hinted at in the background.

Hey, today we're trending towards the BF2-19 Heavy Battleframes today so go and pledge!

Cheers!
Dave



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrandonKF wrote:
One player asked a good question about an Attack roll and if it went under their Skill, was it an automatic miss.

The response was that the highest value stands. So, if your GUN skill is 4+ and you roll a 3 and a 2, you keep the 3 and compare it. Obviously the rules for that need clarifying, but the feedback on the Development forum is going very well.


Exactly correct.

If your attack check is low and your opponent's check is also low then you can cause a hit regardless. The munitions are still fired because you made an attack. There is always the change that though you missed your opponent blundered into the shot regardless!

In a recent play test game the Black Adder I was using took a pot shot on 1D6 at a Ferret behind some crates. That Ferret had 3D6 to roll. I rolled a 6, he rolled triple ones and was just an inch out of formation with the commander so no re-roll. That was a pretty big overkill but even if I had rolled a 1 on my attack check it still would have been a hit with a margin of success of zero since 1=1. That hit still would have crippled the Ferret. (off the box, off the truck, nothing but overkill!)

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 spaceelf wrote:
There was talk of why HG has not really caught on. Many people buy into the game. However, I have not seen local communities grow. I suspect that this may be caused by the sales that DP9 puts on periodically. They undercut retailers. The retailers in turn push other games, and local HG scenes die. Another point of note, is that most serious painters shy away from games at this scale. Thus HG needs to attract people with the game. I found blitz entertaining. It certainly was not balanced, but that was not a issue for me. The constant rule changes were a problem, and I am certain that they drove people away from the game.



We have a new policy of stable prices so that players can order without worrying about sales changing the price later. We'll be doing promotions through articles and blog posts instead of pricing. We want our retailer friends to have a reason to support us.

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/10 21:02:33


Post by: Firebreak


I'm glad you're addressing these kinds of questions, Dave. It's a promising start, for things much more positive than the KS could ever accomplish. Thank you.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/11 16:49:44


Post by: BrandonKF


To the 700+ Backers, their families and friends, I say thank you. I pray this Veterans Day is good, and that all of you have a blessed time. The same goes for all those who have been in discussion here. Even those I have disagreed with.

To my fellow veterans, I thank you. Those who came before, those who gave up life and limb, those who have fought hard fights in secret, I say God bless you all. "Keep up the fire."


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/11 17:32:39


Post by: DP9Dave


The kickstarter is for molds to make models and to help get the word out about Heavy Gear. It's the community of players getting together to enjoy Heavy Gear in stores, homes, at conventions and online that is the future of Heavy Gear. Plastic minis remove some cost barriers. It's up to us to do the rest because if it isn't a fun hobby to participate in then what's the point, right?

Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/11 18:10:16


Post by: HudsonD


DP9's record for community building in the last few years has been thoroughly abysmal, and I'd rather not repeat the derogatory comments about the company some retailers shared with me when I was in Montréal, the Pod's home turf.

Lowering the entry barrier is one thing, but how is DP9 going to change that bad reputation with players and retailers, and improve player retention ?


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/11 18:20:24


Post by: mrondeau


 DP9Dave wrote:
It's up to us to do the rest because if it isn't a fun hobby to participate in then what's the point, right?
(Emphasis added)

If by "us", you mean DP9 then you have a point. DP9's action, over the last 10 years, have cancelled out all attempts at community building. In general, there was a clear inverse correlation between "enthusiasm" and "number of game actually played". Player retention was, more or less, nonexistent. Reporting problems was a good way to be insulted and called a troll by DP9 and DP9's "fans" (who, weirdly enough, tended not to play the game).
A move from DP9's strategy of producing something that look superficially good, getting the initial sales, then expecting players to ignore the flaws and refusing any responsibility for the player retention problem would be more than welcomed.
DP9 should and must address the player retention problem. The first step to do so is to accept that it is caused by DP9's actions and decisions, rather than blaming it on detractors.

If by "us", you mean DP9's customers, I doubt that using the same strategy with plastic minis will help with player retention. It should help you get more initial sales, since the impulse buy cost will be lower, but I doubt that burning bridges with more players and their acquaintances is a good long term strategy.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/12 09:05:01


Post by: Albertorius


Right now, I'm in a bit of a weird position regarding the KS. I'm not overly interested in the new rules (the ones I have work for me well enough that I don't feel the need to "upgrade" to the new ruleset, for which I'm ambivalent right now), and the 3d renders we've been shown so far have been... well, not really as good as I was expecting.

Yes, I know that they are work in progress, and I know that working with plastics has its issues, but... the current renders are not selling me the new minis. They look awkward, weirdly proportioned and... low definition, if that makes any sense. And we've all seen what it's possible to do with plastic sprues.

So I don't know... will we see any "finalized" render of any model before the end of the KS? And hopefully any physical prototype of them? Because right now, I must say I'm not sold. Which is a shame.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/12 11:42:21


Post by: frozenwastes


 Albertorius wrote:
I don't feel the need to "upgrade" to the new ruleset, for which I'm ambivalent right now),


"upgrade"

So I don't know... will we see any "finalized" render of any model before the end of the KS? And hopefully any physical prototype of them? Because right now, I must say I'm not sold. Which is a shame.


As long as a KS is renders only, I wait until the models are in the hands of the backers so I can see reviews of what I'll actually get if I buy them. Especially if the product is a first for the company like a new material.


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/13 03:08:12


Post by: DP9Dave


The issue with getting a good enough quality of 3D print to show backers the final print quality is that doing that for all the 3D models we will be producing will cost thousands of dollars, which would be fine if we were just commissioning new versions or poses of models for metal production but it's not so the money is better spend elsewhere.

Instead we will have the renders and work with the sculptor to add as much detail as the molds can handle. As the models are mechanical in nature we can't cheat the same way you can with a biological creature by just filling in gaps and spaces with extra hair/fur/cloth/skulls.

And of course when I refer to us I mean Dream Pod 9. I'm building lists of things that have to be done as follow-up support. Organized play packages, better quality videos, website force building apps, online support, more engagement on forums, interactive FAQs etc. Players can support us by introducing people to the new Heavy Gear.

My experience comes from working in game stores from 1999-11 and at Dream Pod 9 since. Game stores are swamped with products and if a product can't grab a client and make a sale by itself then it doesn't last long. I'm already working with some local stores to get some organized gaming going, but in the end I'm just one guy. I could get paid to visit stores full time and run demos and I still wouldn't make as big a difference as I would making showcase quality videos for online support. Or assembling a properly written selling guide for game stores. My goal will be to make it easy for a fan to point out Heavy Gear to a game store owner or game club, point them at the resources and then allow us to directly support the group. Not an impossible task by any stretch but it will be a job that's for sure.

We're on our way to 400% backing. WooT!



Cheers!
Dave


Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406 @ 2014/11/13 03:55:36


Post by: warboss


 Albertorius wrote:
Right now, I'm in a bit of a weird position regarding the KS. I'm not overly interested in the new rules (the ones I have work for me well enough that I don't feel the need to "upgrade" to the new ruleset, for which I'm ambivalent right now), and the 3d renders we've been shown so far have been... well, not really as good as I was expecting.

Yes, I know that they are work in progress, and I know that working with plastics has its issues, but... the current renders are not selling me the new minis. They look awkward, weirdly proportioned and... low definition, if that makes any sense. And we've all seen what it's possible to do with plastic sprues.

So I don't know... will we see any "finalized" render of any model before the end of the KS? And hopefully any physical prototype of them? Because right now, I must say I'm not sold. Which is a shame.


Dave said before that they plan on keeping the pledge manager open until just before manufacturing begins so you can always pledge $1 and then add a pledge level like the standard $115 starter pledge if you like what you see in the intervening months. Dave, feel free to correct me if the details here have changed since IIRC a week ago when you said it.