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Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/08 21:42:15


Post by: M0ff3l


Let me start this thread off by making it clear that as soon as this thread derails into another hatred filled bandwagon against BTP/MWG or anything like that I will immediately PM a mod and ask for closing of the thread. I am making this thread to (hopefully) showcase an average interaction with BTP.

The Army:

I converted this army from the following GW kits:
Dark Vengeance
2 Space Marine Rhino's
1 Box of Obliterators
1 Typhus
1 Space Marine Tactical Squad
And a lot of Greenstuff

(pictures were taken with my phone and I was in a hurry)

The entire thing:

Terminators + Typhus:

The Rhino's:

The Helbrute, Sorcerer and Cypher:

The Plague Marines:

The Chaos Bikers:

The Obliterators:


Sending them off to the states:

I have send stuff to the US before, mainly magic cards for trade-ins to online stores. But had never send anything big/fragile like a 40k army. Luckily we had a lot of bubblewrap and other packaging material in the house and after a good 30 mins the box didnt rattle when we threw it, so good sign! (hopefully)...

Off to the post office we went aaaaaand:

Proof the receiver matches BTP's adress:

Email correspondence:

My email correspondence with BTP went slow, that is however not their fault as I am from the EU. They usually answered one email at around 8 pm my time I would answer and then it would either get a response later that day when I was sleeping or the next day at around 8 pm again. However as I was still working on the last few plague marines during this correspondence I didnt mind the wait.

My first email asking them for a quote:
Hello BlueTable Painting,

I have a ~1500 point Chaos Space Marine army that I might want to get painted up, they are all assembled and based. For most of the models, table top standard would be enough (that would be level 2 or 3 with your company?). For a few I would be looking at a higher level like 5-6.

Here is a list of the table top standard stuff:
14 Plague Marines
2 Rhinos
3 Obliterators (Resin)
5 Terminators
3 Bikers
1 Helbrute
1 Sorcerer & spell familier

Then I have 2 characters that I would like to have extra detail etc.
1 Typhus (Resin & primed black)
1 Cypher (Own conversion)

I also have very specific ideas for the paint job on some models, would these requests increase the cost?


Thank you for your time,

Name


A day later I got a response from the employee whom I have been talking to since. No correspondence has been made with or to Shawn Gately from me. Everything has been handled by this employee who I will not name.

Name,

Here's that quote! Let me know what you think!

-Name


The file attatched was an excel sheet, it had been set up in a way were you can change the painting levels of some models and the price will update accordingly, here is an image of said excel document (above whats seen in the picture was the project name and my name):


After looking through the excell sheet I figured the prices were fair and responded to BTPs email:
Hey Name,

These prices look fair, since sending my email I thought of 2 things that I might want to add to my order;

Both of my chaos rhinos have been converted from space marine rhinos, and they have Hunter Killer Missile launchers counting as Havoc Launchers. Could BTP replace the Hunter Killers with actual Havoc launchers? Also, I would like one of the rhinos to have a fly icon painted on the top similar to this http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/4/16/354197_sm-Chaos,%20Nurgle,%20Rhino.JPG

Could you please tell me if this will be possible, and update the price accordingly?

-Name


A quick response later I had my updated (and final quote):

Name,

Here's that revised quote!

-Name


Picture of the updated excell:


I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here. If I was gonna pay this much for my army anyways, a little too much on the bits couldnt really hurt. The freehand budget seemd high aswell, but I dont know how they calculate this. From their website I figured they just set them to a certain amount and go from there. I mailed BTP about this aswell:

Hey Name,

Thanks for the updated quote, the prices for the conversions and free hand are steeper than I expected. But I would still like them anyways. After changing shipping to Europe it came to 803,28$ which is a price I can agree on. Where can I send my models to and where do I send my paypal deposit?

-Name


After that came an email from BTP about their shipping adress and paypal information. which I could share but it would basically come down to number, name. number, name "let me know when youve placed that deposit" name.... so lets save some space. After I made the deposit I mailed them again:

Hey Name,

The 65% deposit has been made and my army is all packed up pretty much ready to ship.

I would like to repeat the request that I made in the deposit. Please when returning the project to me write "Returned Goods" and "Teruggestuurde Goederen" on the customs form. This has to do with Dutch import laws, and if it is neglected I would have to pay import fees for the models themselves instead of the painting service.

Thank you very much,

-Name


After that this email came:

Awesome! In a few days you will receive a "Request for Final Instructions" email, in which you will explain every detail of your project, including pictures, web references, etc.

At the end of the process when they verify your shipping address, be sure to reiterate those instructions

-Name


It actually only took like 3 hours for the request for final instructions email to come in:

This is a request for Instructions for your project. Please read this carefully as this is our contract. I will solidify quote and accept deposit once this is in.

If you have already sent Instructions, you will need to re-send them in response to this email before your project can proceed.

We need from you a single document that we can print out and put in a bin with your models such that Assembler and Painter will all know what to do without any further input. The artists do not have access to company email.

You may use the attached as a fill-in-the-blanks or just respond to this email. It is up to you to give us all the information that we need.

Nothing from emails or phone calls will make it to the artist. It ALL must go into a single written document.

You are welcome to leave details up to us. We will fill in where information is lacking using our best judgment.

If something you put in your Instructions was not quoted for, we will add that to the project total, just like ordering at a restaurant.

Take a few days to carefully consider your project as we would prefer not to alter the project after it starts. Making alterations after the project is started often creates complications.

When your project is done, if you want alterations of any kind there are two categories:

1) It was in your instructions and we did not follow them. There is no charge for this.

2) It was not in your instructions, but you still want it changed. We are happy to make the change, but there might be a charge. As long as you are willing to pay we are glad to re-do.

All projects are under our Terms of Service. By submitting your Instructions sheet you are agreeing to the Terms of Service.



BTP



I send them my master Instructions by mail, the master instructions:












After that I send an email about the freehand DA logo I wanted on cyphers shoulder and if it would fit into the 60$ budget, BTP told me they suggested adding another 20$ or just see what the artist can do within the period of time 60$ would get me. As I found that 60$ estimation to be on the high end of things for the freehand I asked for (I'd imagine it wouldnt be that much work, make a stencil out of the fly and spray it black or actually freehand it, which still, its a pretty simple shaped fly.) I said that I would keep it at 60$.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/08 21:56:57


Post by: StormKing


Interested in seeing how the models turn out. Heard good things and bad things about btp so hopefully you end up with something good tho!

The prices seem pretty expensive but I've never gotten anything painted on commison before so I'm not familiar with the cost.
How long did they say that it would take for them to paint up your army before sending it back to you?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/08 22:01:39


Post by: M0ff3l


 chiefbigredman wrote:
Interested in seeing how the models turn out. Heard good things and bad things about btp so hopefully you end up with something good tho!

The prices seem pretty expensive but I've never gotten anything painted on commison before so I'm not familiar with the cost.
How long did they say that it would take for them to paint up your army before sending it back to you?


Shipping from me to them will take 7-14 business days I think. After that on their site it says some projects take 4-7 weeks, but most 7-10 weeks, + shipping back to me. So maybe they will get here late january-ish (considering christmas and new-years usually slow down postal services).


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/08 22:54:21


Post by: jreilly89


Please post updated pictures of the models when they are done. Interested to see how your experience holds up. Also, please update on the communication after everything is finished, as mid/post production communication seems to be one of their flaws.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/08 23:49:34


Post by: winterdyne


The pricing is dirt cheap. Actually really very surprisingly cheap. I'd go so far as to say way too cheap.

The current Utah state minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

You have therefore paid for a fair amount under (taking into account studio and material overheads) 100 hours. I would guess possibly around 50 hours, 60 tops; a single working week. To my eye to a decent standard I'd allow at least 4 weeks, more likely 6 or 8.

Set your expectation for quality to very low indeed...

I hope you don't feel you've wasted your money when you get stuff back, but I always advise people to consider what they're paying for when they're concerned about how much, or how cheap something is.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 00:01:04


Post by: Ignatius-Grulgor


I'm not sure how much of a 'painting and modelling blog' it will be if you're not doing any painting or modelling past this point, or am I missing a point somewhere?

If it is to showcase an interaction with a company might be more appropriate elsewhere. Interested to see how an interaction with a commission company goes though, especially as I'd like to try doing a few commission models myself.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 00:03:23


Post by: Ustrello


 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a 'painting and modelling blog' it will be if you're not doing any painting or modelling past this point, or am I missing a point somewhere?

If it is to showcase an interaction with a company might be more appropriate elsewhere. Interested to see how an interaction with a commission company goes though, especially as I'd like to try doing a few commission models myself.


It isn't a P and M thread since he isnt doing any work. But this was a guy white knighting BTP in the chaos dwarves thread, so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets better than usual treatment or painting if shawn was paying attention to the thread, which we know he was.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 00:09:18


Post by: Ignatius-Grulgor


 Ustrello wrote:
 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a 'painting and modelling blog' it will be if you're not doing any painting or modelling past this point, or am I missing a point somewhere?

If it is to showcase an interaction with a company might be more appropriate elsewhere. Interested to see how an interaction with a commission company goes though, especially as I'd like to try doing a few commission models myself.


It isn't a P and M thread since he isnt doing any work. But this was a guy white knighting BTP in the chaos dwarves thread, so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets better than usual treatment or painting if shawn was paying attention to the thread, which we know he was.


Ah that's a shame then, not sure which thread you're referring to, I'll have to go hunt it down, I'm assuming a less than positive one given the white knighting comment. Don't really know much about the company beyond that odd very iffy kickstarter thing they did at one point.

Edit: reading the BTP dwarf-gate thread now, this is totally a useful guide to the world of commissions, if you're looking for a 'how not to'.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 00:52:55


Post by: motyak


We're going to go to Dakka Discussions with this. We can review it when we get some images of actual painting and modelling as to whether it still belongs there or here.

And to the thread in general, make sure you keep this civil. Any disagreements with users from other threads that are bought into this one are going to break several rules of the site, so don't do it


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 01:45:45


Post by: Breotan


 M0ff3l wrote:
I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here.
After looking on eBay, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I'd be quite comfortable with the wait.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 04:26:49


Post by: Azreal13


Have they essentially just charged the trade price for two CSM Rhinos?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 07:49:42


Post by: frozenwastes


This is actually a smart way to get good painting from BTP. Everyone will be watching and it'll be a chance for BTP to give this project the attention they should give to every project.

I'm guessing this $800 project is going to turn out better than the much more expensive chaos dwarf army did.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 08:01:02


Post by: Surtur


Is it just me or does this post seem like a bit of post-purchase rationalization? I mean coming right after the other thread on BTP makes it look defensive, but proclaiming this a blog of another person's work just seems a bit self serving.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 08:16:42


Post by: Physh


 Surtur wrote:
Is it just me or does this post seem like a bit of post-purchase rationalization? I mean coming right after the other thread on BTP makes it look defensive, but proclaiming this a blog of another person's work just seems a bit self serving.


This is a comparison to what happened in the other Thread. Sure its not on the scope of the Chaos Dwarves, and probably this will be done to a better standard vs that of what happened due to how public this has gotten. OP is being kind enough to do this to prove his points that were said in Tenebre's thread. Whether or not one agrees with Tenebre or M0ff3l, its nice to be able to see the full process play out.

I will also say that $60 for conversion just for 2 Havocs is gonna be $55 profit for BTP. I am sure they have the bits in their "collection". Not to start bashing BTP, but thats just plain stupid if that is all M0ff3l is going to get even with asking for the freehand DA for Cypher.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 09:40:02


Post by: Ouze


I can't wait to see how this comes out. I've never seen this process in action before - I painted all my own stuff - so I'm fascinated.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 10:27:37


Post by: M0ff3l


winterdyne wrote:
The pricing is dirt cheap. Actually really very surprisingly cheap. I'd go so far as to say way too cheap.

The current Utah state minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

You have therefore paid for a fair amount under (taking into account studio and material overheads) 100 hours. I would guess possibly around 50 hours, 60 tops; a single working week. To my eye to a decent standard I'd allow at least 4 weeks, more likely 6 or 8.

Set your expectation for quality to very low indeed...

I hope you don't feel you've wasted your money when you get stuff back, but I always advise people to consider what they're paying for when they're concerned about how much, or how cheap something is.


I dont think I will be dissapointed with the quality. Its all in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. You paint professionally, so your standards are way higher than mine. So far I've only painted 1 army myself and it didnt turn out that amazing. Just recently they uploaded a level 3 ork army to their youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv_WxBM5jfg&list=UU-aSLyvFLGEmNFcGomzL47w . If this is the level of painting Im getting for my 800$ I will be happy with it. But more experienced painters might not.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 10:35:54


Post by: Art Steventon


I'm a little confused...
Why, given the amount of commission painters across the UK, would you then take the risk of sending what isn't a small amount of financial risk, across the pond for painting, where if anything goes wrong, there's absolutely no chance of you even visiting the studios?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 11:35:29


Post by: winterdyne


 M0ff3l wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
The pricing is dirt cheap. Actually really very surprisingly cheap. I'd go so far as to say way too cheap.

The current Utah state minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

You have therefore paid for a fair amount under (taking into account studio and material overheads) 100 hours. I would guess possibly around 50 hours, 60 tops; a single working week. To my eye to a decent standard I'd allow at least 4 weeks, more likely 6 or 8.

Set your expectation for quality to very low indeed...

I hope you don't feel you've wasted your money when you get stuff back, but I always advise people to consider what they're paying for when they're concerned about how much, or how cheap something is.


I dont think I will be dissapointed with the quality. Its all in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. You paint professionally, so your standards are way higher than mine. So far I've only painted 1 army myself and it didnt turn out that amazing. Just recently they uploaded a level 3 ork army to their youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv_WxBM5jfg&list=UU-aSLyvFLGEmNFcGomzL47w . If this is the level of painting Im getting for my 800$ I will be happy with it. But more experienced painters might not.


You're missing the point. I think much more than a week is required, even for a nice neat basic standard, which is the minimum a professional commission outfit should be putting out.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 11:39:19


Post by: calamarialldayerrday


I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 12:02:41


Post by: M0ff3l


 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?


Because painting isnt fun for everyone? I really dont like painting, partially because im not good at it and partially because its really tedious to me. Also I dont have the motivation and time to paint myself. I have some necrons that Ive had assembled and primed for 3 years and still havent painted. And it is because I went trough the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing that I dont want this army to sit unpainted/primed in my shelf.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 12:06:01


Post by: frozenwastes


Getting people to paint stuff for you is totally legit. And the price tag on this project isn't high at all.

M0ff3l - If you haven't already you should send info about this thread and why you made it to Blue Table Painting so they can see it's an opportunity for them to show what they can do. After all, there's no reason for you to be unhappy with your stuff given that it's too late to change your mind at this point.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 12:12:53


Post by: M0ff3l


 frozenwastes wrote:
Getting people to paint stuff for you is totally legit. And the price tag on this project isn't high at all.

M0ff3l - If you haven't already you should send info about this thread and why you made it to Blue Table Painting so they can see it's an opportunity for them to show what they can do. After all, there's no reason for you to be unhappy with your stuff given that it's too late to change your mind at this point.


I could notify them of the post, however many people already think that BTP reads these threads. Also I wanted to showcase the average experience with BTP, so maybe telling them what Im doing will really skew the outcome. Or they will simply not care.

I would like to hear more opinions on whether or not I should notify BTP. If most people really think they already know about it, then I could atleast ask for their response?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 13:59:31


Post by: Ouze


 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you.


I hate painting, I find it to be an unpleasant, tedious chore that I must overcome because I do enjoy having painted miniatures, and am too cheap to pay someone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 M0ff3l wrote:
I would like to hear more opinions on whether or not I should notify BTP. If most people really think they already know about it, then I could atleast ask for their response?


Scientifically, you should not notify BTP so that we get a fair comparison between that thread and an "anonymous", average commission experience Joe Schmoe would get.

Obviously, it's in your own self interest to tell BTP about this thread because realistically you will get a substantially better job than you would normally expect to get when this thread is, in a way, set up as a counterpart to the other one.

Pragmatically, it won't matter, they've already seen it anyway since they do read Dakka.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 14:17:25


Post by: winterdyne


 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?


And you (and people like you) are the reason that companies like BTP exist providing surprisingly low standards of work. A simple check of minimum wage against the quoted fee gives you how many hours you're paying for?
Why is it insane? You think perhaps painters don't need to eat, pay rent, pay for the paint, pay for their kids clothing? I shake my head sadly at you, sir.

M0ff3l, I would not bother notifying BTP. As you say, it will skew the result - though I would think the result will now be skewed anyway - BTP are under pressure to show they can deliver the goods, so to speak.

This said, I'm reasonably confident that you will (after a longer than expected turnaround) get a reasonable low-end tabletop finish on the bulk of your stuff. There's simply no way it can be done in a week, but there's nothing to say a service can't go over and beyond what they've been paid to do (I do it all the time, much to the chagrin on my wife). I certainly think they can hit what they class as level 3 easily enough (but then so can most people given a little bit of practice).

What will be more interesting is the standard of finish on the higher level stuff you wanted - I'd classify that (level 5 as described) as a high-end tabletop skirmish squad (or elite infantry), which is a touch over my basic - boiling down to more cleanup on any rough blends or transitions, which on rank and file are not particularly noticeable. Now for that level I start at around £35 ($60 ish) per model, in batches of 5 which take around 3 working days. Singles I start at around £65 ($115 ish) and produce a similar result, but concentrate on the individual model more taking up to a full working day each. My prices include assembly and basing - I generally do not accept pre-assembled work - it can make life more difficult.

My result is something like:

Multi-tone flesh (eyes, brows if suitable, lips, teeth, cheek blush, stubble). At least 3 levels of colour on major colours, plus tight edges. Freehand where needed. No slips, no screwups. It's not competitive, but it's a solid, shove-it-in-yer-cabinet paintjob. Around a 50-50 chance (based on the few squads I've entered over the years) of Golden Demon finalist, but no chance of top 3. I only charge additional amounts for freehand if it's something silly or overly complex - a mural on the top of a Rhino for example. Most logos or emblems are included in the basic cost.

You've paid between a third and half the cost. I'd say you'll get 2 1/2 - 3 hours on the two marine size models and maybe 4 hours on Typhus. You are going to get VERY rushed work - the standard will not match.

I think at the higher end BTP are out of their depth and have been for some time from what I've seen them produce. If they're charging normally what they've charged you I can see why.





Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 14:33:26


Post by: Rusty Trombone


 frozenwastes wrote:
This is actually a smart way to get good painting from BTP. Everyone will be watching and it'll be a chance for BTP to give this project the attention they should give to every project.

I'm guessing this $800 project is going to turn out better than the much more expensive chaos dwarf army did.


So much this.

I'm rooting for it, too, if only because some good should come about from this debacle. The wag in me though wants an implosion. Honestly, BTP can't 'win' here, methinks...a poor job and we say we knew it because of their history, a great job and we say it's because they knew it was being microscoped. The only winner is M0ff3l, assuming a satisfactory transaction.

Now...anyone up for a wager?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 14:39:28


Post by: winterdyne


With the numbers being out in the open, it's pretty easy to guess what he should get.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 14:43:54


Post by: Rusty Trombone


winterdyne wrote:
 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?


And you (and people like you) are the reason that companies like BTP exist providing surprisingly low standards of work. A simple check of minimum wage against the quoted fee gives you how many hours you're paying for?
Why is it insane? You think perhaps painters don't need to eat, pay rent, pay for the paint, pay for their kids clothing? I shake my head sadly at you, sir.







It's just an opinion. Just like someone who only utilizes a bike for transportation would balk at the expense of a car. If you don't ever travel far from home of course an automobile is silly. Different strokes and all.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 14:50:07


Post by: M0ff3l


Rusty Trombone wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
This is actually a smart way to get good painting from BTP. Everyone will be watching and it'll be a chance for BTP to give this project the attention they should give to every project.

I'm guessing this $800 project is going to turn out better than the much more expensive chaos dwarf army did.


So much this.

I'm rooting for it, too, if only because some good should come about from this debacle. The wag in me though wants an implosion. Honestly, BTP can't 'win' here, methinks...a poor job and we say we knew it because of their history, a great job and we say it's because they knew it was being microscoped. The only winner is M0ff3l, assuming a satisfactory transaction.

Now...anyone up for a wager?


This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 14:53:19


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


maybe you could ask a mod to "hide" the thread temporarily (e.g. in the DCM sub-forum) until the paint commission is complete and the models are back in your possession?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 15:09:30


Post by: nkelsch




Here is the issue... This level of paint job for nurgle is easy to do. Base colors, drybrush, details, wash in camo, and slight highlights, usually more drybrush.

It is a nice paintjob, and easy to get quickly and will look better to the eyeball than it will to a zoomed in photo.

To compare a Nurgle paint job quality, or a muddy ork to a airbrushed fire effect chaos dwarf or highly detailed arbites makes a futile exercise.

And for those who think this is anything but 'money = time' remember:
42 Dollars to paint Typhus...
You need to recover some profit, to cover company expenses.
You need you cover raw materials, paint adds up.
You need to have a slight cost for infrastructure.
So that is probably going to be 5-8$ just on 'overhead' stuff...

So even if 35$ went to the painter... That is 3 hours MAX paint job. You can't get blending and extreme highlighting in that time.

I think you will probably get decent tabletop models you probably will be happy with... but I also think nurgle are easier to paint compared to tzeeench or models with actual fleshtones. I would love to see all 4 chaos gods presented as a single job since you would run the gambit of technique, styles and paint colors with the 4 gods.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 15:15:03


Post by: Rusty Trombone


Unfortunately for BTP, we are defined by how we handle adversity, not how we handle...whatever the antonym of adversity is.

In the end, this transparent(and generously offered) glimpse at a business dealing with BTP can at best only offer one good mark on their resume. Too bad it takes (way)more than one to diminish the black eye that Shawn has given his company.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 15:23:28


Post by: Kanluwen


 M0ff3l wrote:

This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread.

Like they didn't already know about this thread?
When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good.

If, not when, BTP delivers a really good job.

And yeah, people will say that. Because of late there has been very little positive to say about BTP.

I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

Maybe not when it initially started but as mentioned this seems to be the trend now. They don't give a crap about quality they care about turnaround.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 15:46:58


Post by: Gullinbursti


I'd suspect, for the next few months, that BTP will do their utmost to do their best on every miniature they send out. There is enough negative press currently that if I was in the same position, I'd do it to try and get some positive press going. However, when I compare even their best work to Jolly Roger Studios, Den of Imagination, Awaken Realms, it still isn't going to be the same jaw dropping gorgeousness. Also, as previously mentioned, barring maybe a vampire counts army, Nurgle is one of the easiest to paint armies in GW's range. I'm not wishing ill on the army (though I'd have given BTP an FU on $60 for two havoc launchers), I'd just guess that the next few months will be a good time to have an order in with BTP.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 15:49:10


Post by: TheAuldGrump


winterdyne wrote:
 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?


And you (and people like you) are the reason that companies like BTP exist providing surprisingly low standards of work. A simple check of minimum wage against the quoted fee gives you how many hours you're paying for?
Why is it insane? You think perhaps painters don't need to eat, pay rent, pay for the paint, pay for their kids clothing? I shake my head sadly at you, sir.

M0ff3l, I would not bother notifying BTP. As you say, it will skew the result - though I would think the result will now be skewed anyway - BTP are under pressure to show they can deliver the goods, so to speak.

This said, I'm reasonably confident that you will (after a longer than expected turnaround) get a reasonable low-end tabletop finish on the bulk of your stuff. There's simply no way it can be done in a week, but there's nothing to say a service can't go over and beyond what they've been paid to do (I do it all the time, much to the chagrin on my wife). I certainly think they can hit what they class as level 3 easily enough (but then so can most people given a little bit of practice).

What will be more interesting is the standard of finish on the higher level stuff you wanted - I'd classify that (level 5 as described) as a high-end tabletop skirmish squad (or elite infantry), which is a touch over my basic - boiling down to more cleanup on any rough blends or transitions, which on rank and file are not particularly noticeable. Now for that level I start at around £35 ($60 ish) per model, in batches of 5 which take around 3 working days. Singles I start at around £65 ($115 ish) and produce a similar result, but concentrate on the individual model more taking up to a full working day each. My prices include assembly and basing - I generally do not accept pre-assembled work - it can make life more difficult.

My result is something like:

Multi-tone flesh (eyes, brows if suitable, lips, teeth, cheek blush, stubble). At least 3 levels of colour on major colours, plus tight edges. Freehand where needed. No slips, no screwups. It's not competitive, but it's a solid, shove-it-in-yer-cabinet paintjob. Around a 50-50 chance (based on the few squads I've entered over the years) of Golden Demon finalist, but no chance of top 3. I only charge additional amounts for freehand if it's something silly or overly complex - a mural on the top of a Rhino for example. Most logos or emblems are included in the basic cost.

You've paid between a third and half the cost. I'd say you'll get 2 1/2 - 3 hours on the two marine size models and maybe 4 hours on Typhus. You are going to get VERY rushed work - the standard will not match.

I think at the higher end BTP are out of their depth and have been for some time from what I've seen them produce. If they're charging normally what they've charged you I can see why.



People always think that the price of having somebody else paint their minis is high - and most times what the price really means is that the artists are getting paid far less per hour, for skilled work, than the customer would be willing to work for.

I like painting - I get twitchy if I haven't painted in a while.

For a time I made a substantial part of my income from painting miniatures.

Now, I only take commissions from people that I know, and paint mostly for myself. (My girlfriend gave me a talking to... time no longer spent painting for others is now spent either painting for us or just doing things together.)

Not just miniatures painting, either - the number of times I have heard artists kvetching about people that aren't even willing to pay them minimum wage for their work....

*EDIT* Heck, GW used to pay the 'Eavy Metal team minimum wage....

The Auld Grump


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 16:35:16


Post by: winterdyne


It's *still* a pretty damn poor salary, but until artists (as a whole) start to stand up for themselves that sort of treatment will continue.




Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 16:41:49


Post by: Ustrello


winterdyne wrote:
It's *still* a pretty damn poor salary, but until artists (as a whole) start to stand up for themselves that sort of treatment will continue.




I've only done one commission piece, a mercs squad, the pay does suck. But at the same time I did enjoy doing it.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 17:03:38


Post by: frozenwastes


M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.


If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 17:08:05


Post by: Ustrello


 frozenwastes wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.


If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.


Being right on the internet to strangers is the most important thing


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 17:08:47


Post by: M0ff3l


 frozenwastes wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.


If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.


Im still not entirely convinced that BTP would care enough about this that they would actually dedicate more time/effort into this project.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 17:11:08


Post by: Ustrello


 M0ff3l wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
M0ff3l wrote:This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.


If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.


Im still not entirely convinced that BTP would care enough about this that they would actually dedicate more time/effort into this project.


This is shawn we are talking about, never underestimate stupid.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 17:12:19


Post by: Anfauglir


 frozenwastes wrote:
If your choice is between creating an accurate review of the average customer experience with BTP and getting a superior paint job on your miniatures, please choose the better paint job. Being right on the internet is less important than the quality of your miniatures.

There is no choice. OP's quest for an honest, fair, transparent, "average" BTP experience is an exercise in futility at this point. The fallout of Movie Mayhem's (aka tenebre) video review, the backlash, subsequent MWG's involvement and further backlash, means that even if BTP were completely ignorant of M0ff3l's intentions and/or these Dakkadakka threads, the nock-on effect of all this for BTP's current/near future commissions will ensure a skewed result.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 17:13:49


Post by: swampyturtle


I hope this army goes well and I will be watching. Honestly I love the conversion work and the green stuffing job. You did a wonderful job on getting it all prepared.

My entire tanith army was a job that took me 4 years to finish to playable standard (No camo on cloaks or bases done yet) but i'll get there eventually. Its certainly no where near Winterdyes standards but i'm happy with it. If you feel your hard earned money is better off spent on BTP that's your prerogative.

I do hope it turns out well. Still a little confused why you wouldn't have used a European painter but i send you my best wishes on how this turns out.

example of my work over 4 years for myself.





Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 19:56:48


Post by: plastictrees


Good on you for starting this.
If you are comfortable continuing the thread I don't think you can really worry about how people interpret the results. You could equally claim to be satisfied by any results BTP achieved. All you can do is present the facts as you see them, which, I believe is what tenebre has done.

Can you tell us WHY you chose BTP in the first place? Did you shop around? Was their a specific project they had done that caught your eye? Did you look at European options?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 20:29:03


Post by: M0ff3l


 plastictrees wrote:
Good on you for starting this.
If you are comfortable continuing the thread I don't think you can really worry about how people interpret the results. You could equally claim to be satisfied by any results BTP achieved. All you can do is present the facts as you see them, which, I believe is what tenebre has done.

Can you tell us WHY you chose BTP in the first place? Did you shop around? Was their a specific project they had done that caught your eye? Did you look at European options?


I did look at a few other companies (also some in europe) because my first thought was just getting the Cypher model I put a lot of effort into painted on a high level. While looking for a company that had some nice results for single characters http://www.golempaintingstudio.co.uk/ caught my eye. I was still not sure about it and told a friend that I might want to get my Cypher painted by a company. He told me it would look weird having Cypher be painted display quality while the rest of my army was M0ff3l-Level paintjob . So my I restarted my search for a company that could do my entire army + cypher and typhus in a higher level. Golem Painting Studio's prices were pretty high (pounds are crazy compared to dollars/euros) so I looked for some alternatives. Now I have been watching BTP videos on and off since before even starting the hobby, so getting a "BTP painted army" was always something I looked up to. Until ofcourse the Tenebre incident happened, which happened around the same time as my interest in getting my army painted.

During the thread about his chaos dwarves I felt like people were not giving BTP a fair shot. Yes what they did to Tenebres army is not level 4-6, its not even close. However when I saw BTPs vid of the army I thought it looked awesome (without knowing what the client actually wanted). Yes there was a lot of black primer, but it didnt look bad to me as a whole. So I started toying with the idea of just letting BTP doing my army and posting a blog about the experience, so that there was a "neutral" review of the entire process from the first quote to the final product on my doorstep.

I have been told about all these awesome polish and UK studios that do awesome work and are more in my area, but honestly the shipping doesnt cost that much and BTP has way more projects under their belt than any of these local studios.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 20:39:38


Post by: Anfauglir


 M0ff3l wrote:
I have been told about all these awesome polish and UK studios that do awesome work and are more in my area, but honestly the shipping doesnt cost that much and BTP has way more projects under their belt than any of these local studios.

But this, in itself, is not a criterion of value or any form of quality assurance. Quite the opposite, in fact, as you and MWG are keen to point out; "well obviously when you churn out as many commissions as BTP does, the odd one is sure to slip through the QC net". Okay, let's pretend that this is a valid, legitimate defence for what happened to tenebre for a moment... why still choose them? Making the choice on that factor alone makes exactly zero sense for any reasonable, rational-thinking paying customer. The choice should be quality over quantity. Every. Single. Time.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 20:41:45


Post by: M0ff3l


 Anfauglir wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
I have been told about all these awesome polish and UK studios that do awesome work and are more in my area, but honestly the shipping doesnt cost that much and BTP has way more projects under their belt than any of these local studios.

But this, in itself, is not a criterion of value or any form of quality assurance. Quite the opposite, in fact, as you and MWG are keen to point out; "well obviously when you churn out as many commissions as BTP does, the odd one is sure to slip through the QC net". Okay, let's pretend that this is a valid, legitimate defence for what happened to tenebre for a moment... why still choose them? Making the choice on that factor alone makes exactly zero sense for any reasonable, rational-thinking paying customer. The choice should be quality over quantity. Every. Single. Time.


What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 20:55:25


Post by: BrookM


Shipping doesn't cost as much? Are you using PostNL or a different service for this?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 21:04:15


Post by: M0ff3l


 BrookM wrote:
Shipping doesn't cost as much? Are you using PostNL or a different service for this?


PostNL, insured for up to 500 euros, and it only costed 25 euros. (dimensions and weight of the package are in the OP). And BTP sending it to me is only 25$ so even cheaper.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 21:06:43


Post by: Anfauglir


 M0ff3l wrote:
What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus?

That's something else entirely, and should be the primary basis upon which your decision is made. You should choose the service with which you are most happy to pay for whatever quality they advertise as being able to deliver. The only real value volume would have with a service like this is the experience of the professional artists working on your minis, something that is void with BTP due to their staff turnover. They may have a lot more commissions under their belt, but that isn't directly proportional to the experience of the artist or artists that will work on your models.

It's your money, your models and your choice, of course. Personally I wouldn't go near BTP with so much as a Grot after everything I've seen and read, but hey. I genuinely wish you and your army the best of luck. The way I see it, worst case scenario you get the "average" BTP treatment - something which you are already entirely satisfied with, best case scenario you get the "super special premium customer care package" in light of recent rep damage. A win-win for you.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 21:28:10


Post by: plastictrees


 M0ff3l wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.


It sort of is...except that obviously none of these other studios have a 0 rating, and NONE of them have feedback of 'absolutely not what I ordered or paid for'.
The fact that it was reading tenebre's thread that prompted you to hire BTP is a testament to any publicity being good publicity I suppose. It also suggests that you just spend $800 in order to be contentious on the internet, which is a bit weird.

Honestly it sounds like you've set your expectations to near 0, so I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe you would be happy to field tenebre's CD army as painted by BTP, I'm guessing that you would be much less happy to field it had you paid $8,000-10,000 for it to be painted in a manner completely counter to your requests.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 21:34:32


Post by: conker249



What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

May just be me, but I would trust a ebay seller with 10 sales and 100% feedback, than someone with 1000 and 80% feedback. especially when it comes to items not as described, items incomplete, ect


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 21:35:33


Post by: M0ff3l


 plastictrees wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.


It sort of is...except that obviously none of these other studios have a 0 rating, and NONE of them have feedback of 'absolutely not what I ordered or paid for'.
The fact that it was reading tenebre's thread that prompted you to hire BTP is a testament to any publicity being good publicity I suppose. It also suggests that you just spend $800 in order to be contentious on the internet, which is a bit weird.

Honestly it sounds like you've set your expectations to near 0, so I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe you would be happy to field tenebre's CD army as painted by BTP, I'm guessing that you would be much less happy to field it had you paid $8,000-10,000 for it to be painted in a manner completely counter to your requests.


As I said, I thought the army looked cool on BTPs vid, where none of the clients requests where known to me and I didnt even know what level the army was. Also I must have not made my post clear, I had the thought of getting a BTP army since I started the hobby. Now seemed the perfect time as I needed an army painted and BTP was getting a lot of bad rep for Tenebres project (which is deserved to a certain level). Tenebres project was a huge failure on BTPs end. there is no denying that. However BTP has been around for 8 years, so there must be some people who think they are good, as they have many returning customers.

And no I certainly dont have my expectations set to near 0, as I put a lot of time and effort into converting this army from mostly space marines I would like it to get a paintjob worthy of that effort. That is the exact reason Im not trusting myself with the paintjob...

 conker249 wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

May just be me, but I would trust a ebay seller with 10 sales and 100% feedback, than someone with 1000 and 80% feedback. especially when it comes to items not as described, items incomplete, ect


Even when you send them expensive models that you put a lot of effort in? Also I dont even know if BTP has 80% feedback, Its just that negative reviews usually shout louder, and people with positive experiences stay out of it.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 22:14:54


Post by: Rusty Trombone


 conker249 wrote:

What if Im happy with the usual quality BTP produces and their quantity is an added bonus? Also quantity is a factor to some extend. Its sort of like ebay feedback, you would be hessitant to buy something from someone who has 0 rating than from someone with over a thousand.

May just be me, but I would trust a ebay seller with 10 sales and 100% feedback, than someone with 1000 and 80% feedback. especially when it comes to items not as described, items incomplete, ect


Yes, me too. However, arguably the ten sales is too low to be a true indicator of sustainable performance. The 80% though is an immediate pass, regardless of sales count.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 22:56:05


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


winterdyne wrote:
It's *still* a pretty damn poor salary, but until artists (as a whole) start to stand up for themselves that sort of treatment will continue.
I think the problem you'll always have, especially around forums like these where people largely play 40k and WHFB which require a large number of models, people will have sticker shock when you tell them how much it'll cost to paint a force. For most wargamers, it IS a large amount of money and most wargamers probably haven't timed how long it takes them personally to assemble and paint a model to have any idea how much it might cost before reading something like "$10,000 to paint an army".

People aren't trying to degrade artists so much as they don't even stop to think... wait... if I had to paint a 4000pt army with 200 models to a decent standard (maybe 3 hours per for assembly, priming and painting) that it would take them 3 months working full time to do. Most people don't even go to the point of realising it would take them 3 hours per model let alone taking the next step of figuring out it would take 3 months for the whole army so to pay someone to do it they would need to pay them one quarter of a yearly salary.

40k and WHFB is full of people who misjudged the time it takes to paint an army and have ended up with much smaller armies than they intended or armies that are only a quarter painted.

I think when it comes to skirmish games people might be a bit more understanding because the sticker shock isn't so bad with a smaller number of models and the cost of the models is often higher to begin anyway.

On a mostly unrelated note, what actually surprised me with your earlier post, it does seem like you don't actually paint much faster than me (you do... but I was expecting a huge gap like you'd paint twice as fast, it actually seems like a small gap to me). Most of what is in my gallery is assembled and painted in under 2 hours, that's my target for non-horde 40k or WHFB army, a lot of it is actually assembled and painted in under 1 hour (Hormagaunts and the like) as that's my target for horde armies. The one model in my gallery I did spend a comparable amount of time on is my Warboss, painted in ~5 hours (not sure how long it took to assemble) and while it doesn't look as good as your "high-end tabletop skirmish squad", the gap isn't as large as I thought it would be for a squad you probably spent similar time per model doing. If I'd spent a couple more hours on the Warboss I could have smoothed out a lot of the blends, but because I wanted him to look rough and ready from table top distances (to match the rest of my army) I decided to not bother using glazes to blend the transitions which definitely saved me a couple of hours.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 23:34:07


Post by: hotsauceman1


You have several problems here
1: This is a case study, which are notoriously bad. If these end great, good for you, but it will prove nothing. Because there is a wealth of evidence against BTP. Like the tau outpost.
2: The quality was never really on trial, it was their inability to do damage control correctly. And admit they failed
3: you would need to send several armies of differing types to them. Why? Becase it can prove that they are able to do more then drybrush/wash.
4: your results are skewed no matter what, why? Your order comes off the heels of a fiasco, theyou will be painting their best.
5: you are doing what every researcher shold not be doing, showing a bias towards a certain result. You are clearly favoting btp here, clouding your judgement


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 23:38:34


Post by: M0ff3l


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You have several problems here
1: This is a case study, which are notoriously bad. If these end great, good for you, but it will prove nothing. Because there is a wealth of evidence against BTP. Like the tau outpost.
2: The quality was never really on trial, it was their inability to do damage control correctly. And admit they failed
3: you would need to send several armies of differing types to them. Why? Becase it can prove that they are able to do more then drybrush/wash.
4: your results are skewed no matter what, why? Your order comes off the heels of a fiasco, theyou will be painting their best.
5: you are doing what every researcher shold not be doing, showing a bias towards a certain result. You are clearly favoting btp here, clouding your judgement


I never said this was a research lol, I just said it was a review of how BTP works from start to end, so people can shape their own opinion on their service and decide for themselves if they wish to use it. Also I was sort of requested to post this partially as proof and partially because people were interested in seeing how BTP worked after asking for a quote etc. So thank you for telling me something I already knew, that this is not a research but a review.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 23:47:27


Post by: hotsauceman1


Again, a problem arises that even if you give thme a glowing review, 5 outta 5 stars, we can point to a myriad of cases against the contary, you don't base your opinion on one review.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/09 23:54:13


Post by: M0ff3l


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Again, a problem arises that even if you give thme a glowing review, 5 outta 5 stars, we can point to a myriad of cases against the contary, you don't base your opinion on one review.


Only half of the review is the end result, the other half is whats in the OP right now, that is the communication with BTP and how setting up a project works with that company. I feel you are also very biased towards an opinion here. Saying this one review doesnt count for anything. Also not every client of BTP will do a review of their stuff, and people unhappy with their result are more likely to do a review. So in my opinion if youre just going off of reviews on the internet your opinion will be skewed against BTP just because of that fact right there.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 00:02:35


Post by: hotsauceman1


No, looking around formed my opinion. They are a poorly run company that does rushed jobs, even for display miniatures, like the heavy gear ones at Gen con, the tau outpost, even in their own website, they are not that good.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 00:02:35


Post by: plastictrees


To be fair to M0ff3l (and I think your reasons for using BTP are bizarre) the thread itself is intended to be the useful source of info for interested parties, not the result.
People can judge for themselves based on the information he/she provides, expecting scientific method to be applied is a bit silly.

As far as the broader BTP review comment, I would have thought that people would have been excited to show off their awesome newly painted armies.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 00:03:58


Post by: M0ff3l


 plastictrees wrote:
To be fair to M0ff3l (and I think your reasons for using BTP are bizarre) the thread itself is intended to be the useful source of info for interested parties, not the result.
People can judge for themselves based on the information he/she provides, expecting scientific method to be applied is a bit silly.

As far as the broader BTP review comment, I would have thought that people would have been excited to show off their awesome newly painted armies.


Or a lot of their customers are just not people who visit forums like dakkadakka etc.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 00:09:58


Post by: Ustrello


 M0ff3l wrote:
 plastictrees wrote:
To be fair to M0ff3l (and I think your reasons for using BTP are bizarre) the thread itself is intended to be the useful source of info for interested parties, not the result.
People can judge for themselves based on the information he/she provides, expecting scientific method to be applied is a bit silly.

As far as the broader BTP review comment, I would have thought that people would have been excited to show off their awesome newly painted armies.


Or a lot of their customers are just not people who visit forums like dakkadakka etc.


I'd go to the warseer thread, you'll see a lot more cases like ten's.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 00:10:46


Post by: plastictrees


 M0ff3l wrote:
 plastictrees wrote:
To be fair to M0ff3l (and I think your reasons for using BTP are bizarre) the thread itself is intended to be the useful source of info for interested parties, not the result.
People can judge for themselves based on the information he/she provides, expecting scientific method to be applied is a bit silly.

As far as the broader BTP review comment, I would have thought that people would have been excited to show off their awesome newly painted armies.


Or a lot of their customers are just not people who visit forums like dakkadakka etc.


Or the internet in general apparently.

Regardless, not the point.
I assume your next expected contact from BTP is upon receipt of your minis?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 00:17:57


Post by: M0ff3l


 plastictrees wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 plastictrees wrote:
To be fair to M0ff3l (and I think your reasons for using BTP are bizarre) the thread itself is intended to be the useful source of info for interested parties, not the result.
People can judge for themselves based on the information he/she provides, expecting scientific method to be applied is a bit silly.

As far as the broader BTP review comment, I would have thought that people would have been excited to show off their awesome newly painted armies.


Or a lot of their customers are just not people who visit forums like dakkadakka etc.


Or the internet in general apparently.

Regardless, not the point.
I assume your next expected contact from BTP is upon receipt of your minis?


Either the receipt of my minis or a response to wether or not they are watching this thread and what they think about it, if I decide to ask them.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 02:01:50


Post by: jonolikespie


Reading all this is making me want to go and have like 10 different people/studios do the same model for me with the same instructions and reference material to the highest standard they offer and review them all, comparing end result, price, time taken, ect.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 02:33:19


Post by: frozenwastes


 jonolikespie wrote:
Reading all this is making me want to go and have like 10 different people/studios do the same model for me with the same instructions and reference material to the highest standard they offer and review them all, comparing end result, price, time taken, ect.


That's a big project. Amazing idea, but it would take a lot of time and resources to pull off.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 03:58:47


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 jonolikespie wrote:
Reading all this is making me want to go and have like 10 different people/studios do the same model for me with the same instructions and reference material to the highest standard they offer and review them all, comparing end result, price, time taken, ect.
A more useful thing would be to get them to paint it for X amount of dollars. Getting them to paint their highest standard will just tell you which is the best painter and who is willing to spend the most time on it, but if you fix the $$$ amount you'll get a better idea of how the actual value compares from one to the next.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 04:07:09


Post by: Moktor


This post should have waited for a completed project, if only to remove the possibility of BTP making this one look better than normal.

Also, since so many people here obviously don't paint their own models I would just like to say this:

I can't afford a commission. I paint my own stuff, and even when I put my best effort in it doesn't come close to the quality of a good commission. It takes me a VERY long time to paint some models (I spent a good 8 hours on Mulg the other night) and if you do the math at what I get paid at my regular job I can't imagine surviving on painting. It IS expensive, and it should be expensive.

If you have better uses for your cash, I understand. But don't bash someone who pays a reasonable price for the talents and skills of a professional painter... time is money. Some of us have more of one than the other.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 04:08:12


Post by: jonolikespie


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
Reading all this is making me want to go and have like 10 different people/studios do the same model for me with the same instructions and reference material to the highest standard they offer and review them all, comparing end result, price, time taken, ect.
A more useful thing would be to get them to paint it for X amount of dollars. Getting them to paint their highest standard will just tell you which is the best painter and who is willing to spend the most time on it, but if you fix the $$$ amount you'll get a better idea of how the actual value compares from one to the next.

I meant it more like paying for level 6, or the equivalent of, from each person/company, without letting them know its a review, then comparing price and quality.

Its important to compare price but I'd also want to see the highest standard commercially available at each place.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 04:14:12


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 jonolikespie wrote:
I meant it more like paying for level 6, or the equivalent of, from each person/company, without letting them know its a review, then comparing price and quality.

Its important to compare price but I'd also want to see the highest standard commercially available at each place.
Personally I tend to think the highest standard isn't really relevant to this discussion as BTP don't even try to produce high end figures. Despite all the fluff and big noting of themselves, they still say a level 6 isn't the highest possible, simply the highest they sell. Compare that to winterdyne who both can and will sell you models that are high level competition standard, or one of the Eastern European painters who pump out really high quality stuff.

You have to compare apples to apples, which is why I think fixing the price is more useful. Pay me $2000 and I'll paint you something awesome simply because I'll take time off work and spend all week on it


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 04:19:07


Post by: totalfailure


 Moktor wrote:
This post should have waited for a completed project, if only to remove the possibility of BTP making this one look better than normal.


This. Regardless of how well this project ends up, it means nothing as a review of BTP or anything else. The OP went out of way to criticize tenebre and make himself a 'white knight official internet defender of BTP'. The chance that the trolls at BTP are not aware of who the army is for and what the poster has done for them is about zero. Thus, its worth as a 'review' of their process and standards is about the same - zero.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 05:31:33


Post by: Azazelx


 Surtur wrote:
Is it just me or does this post seem like a bit of post-purchase rationalization? I mean coming right after the other thread on BTP makes it look defensive, but proclaiming this a blog of another person's work just seems a bit self serving.


No - I challenged the OP multiple times to man up and post his new/ongoing experiences with BTP publicly in response to his criticism in the other thread. He's now done so, so kudos to him and let's all please keep it civil and pleasant and not regress to flaming or unpleasantness. I'd hate for this thread to be locked.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 07:14:11


Post by: gailany222


you have done a great job


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 08:53:24


Post by: Herzlos


 Gullinbursti wrote:
I'd suspect, for the next few months, that BTP will do their utmost to do their best on every miniature they send out. There is enough negative press currently that if I was in the same position, I'd do it to try and get some positive press going. However, when I compare even their best work to Jolly Roger Studios, Den of Imagination, Awaken Realms, it still isn't going to be the same jaw dropping gorgeousness. Also, as previously mentioned, barring maybe a vampire counts army, Nurgle is one of the easiest to paint armies in GW's range. I'm not wishing ill on the army (though I'd have given BTP an FU on $60 for two havoc launchers), I'd just guess that the next few months will be a good time to have an order in with BTP.


But I bet that if you were in that position, you'd have just offered a refund or to pay someone else to paint it and turn the bad job into a PR win, instead of doubling down on the bad attitude.


Anyway, Kudos to the OP for putting his money where his mouth is. I don't understand why he chose BTP since he's so close to Poland, but still, I'm looking forward to seeing the results and I hope he gets something he's happy with.

Not that I need convincing that BTP are capable of doing good work, but I also don't need convincing that they are capable of terrible work as well.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 12:29:04


Post by: sarpedons-right-hand


gailany222 wrote:
you have done a great job


What does that mean?

Regardless, I hope that the OP gets the results that he is looking for and that BTP live up to his expectations. Speaking as someone who has never had the disposable income to use a commission painter, and I earn good money, I'm intrigued as to the whole process.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 14:29:18


Post by: warboss


 totalfailure wrote:
 Moktor wrote:
This post should have waited for a completed project, if only to remove the possibility of BTP making this one look better than normal.


This. Regardless of how well this project ends up, it means nothing as a review of BTP or anything else. The OP went out of way to criticize tenebre and make himself a 'white knight official internet defender of BTP'. The chance that the trolls at BTP are not aware of who the army is for and what the poster has done for them is about zero. Thus, its worth as a 'review' of their process and standards is about the same - zero.


Agreed. It would have been a fair review if he had submitted it, had it done, and then showed the results prior to exposing it to the "court of public opinion".


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 17:16:12


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


The OP is in an unwinnable situation as far as the public goes in this instance. If he says good things about BTP then he is "white knighting" if he says bad things then he's "just bad mouthing BTP without any proof/reason".
When he said that he would put his money on the line and make his own judgement people wanted him to show them every step of his way. If he doesn't do it in the present tense then he would be accused of manipulating events or ignoring bad experiences (assuming that he likes the results that he gets). This thread is purely his subjective opinion on BTP's work manner and their results. It is a courtesy to us that he chooses to share it.
This is not a scientific endeavor nor does it need to be fair. It is one persons experience with BTP. He will show us the results that he gets and share his opinion of it. You are free to accept or disregard his opinion. If you are that concerned about fairness then put your own money on the line and let us know how it turns out for you.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 18:07:43


Post by: M0ff3l


 warboss wrote:
 totalfailure wrote:
 Moktor wrote:
This post should have waited for a completed project, if only to remove the possibility of BTP making this one look better than normal.


This. Regardless of how well this project ends up, it means nothing as a review of BTP or anything else. The OP went out of way to criticize tenebre and make himself a 'white knight official internet defender of BTP'. The chance that the trolls at BTP are not aware of who the army is for and what the poster has done for them is about zero. Thus, its worth as a 'review' of their process and standards is about the same - zero.


Agreed. It would have been a fair review if he had submitted it, had it done, and then showed the results prior to exposing it to the "court of public opinion".


This is what I told people in the other thread, but they "demanded" proof and kept asking for the thread to be made. I cant please everyone so sorry that I went this route. However this thread will still be able to show anyone thinking about using BTP how the entire process goes from start to end. And not just how good the army turns out, but communicaiton, pricing, how the master instructions are going to look like etc.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The OP is in an unwinnable situation as far as the public goes in this instance. If he says good things about BTP then he is "white knighting" if he says bad things then he's "just bad mouthing BTP without any proof/reason".
When he said that he would put his money on the line and make his own judgement people wanted him to show them every step of his way. If he doesn't do it in the present tense then he would be accused of manipulating events or ignoring bad experiences (assuming that he likes the results that he gets). This thread is purely his subjective opinion on BTP's work manner and their results. It is a courtesy to us that he chooses to share it.
This is not a scientific endeavor nor does it need to be fair. It is one persons experience with BTP. He will show us the results that he gets and share his opinion of it. You are free to accept or disregard his opinion. If you are that concerned about fairness then put your own money on the line and let us know how it turns out for you.


Thank you, this is exactly the predicament I am in right now.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 18:33:34


Post by: techsoldaten


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The OP is in an unwinnable situation...


The OP is not in any situation because he hasn't gotten any kind of an outcome on the services he paid for. His issue is not with the community, it's with BTP, and anything anyone says at this point is just noise.

Let the OP go through this process, get the models back, show some pictures, etc. and then people can judge. Despite any concerns about points of service, it's really the final outcome that speaks to the quality BTP provides.

FWIW, there are other people going through the process with BTP right now who are also documenting their experiences and will be sharing them when they get their models back. The OP is going to be one of many people offering insight into what a typical transaction with BTP looks like.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 21:09:30


Post by: Azazelx


winterdyne wrote:

My result is something like:



As a quick aside - where are the hound and handler from? They look like Forge World? But if so, what line/figures?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 21:15:20


Post by: swampyturtle


 Azazelx wrote:
winterdyne wrote:

My result is something like:



As a quick aside - where are the hound and handler from? They look like Forge World? But if so, what line/figures?


Games day 2012 mini


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 21:23:32


Post by: winterdyne


Yes, 2012 event only models. I think I picked it up at the FW open day.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 21:46:00


Post by: techsoldaten


winterdyne wrote:
Yes, 2012 event only models. I think I picked it up at the FW open day.


The whole squad is outstanding. I know this is a very generic color scheme, but it's so well executed.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 22:19:28


Post by: Steelmage99


 techsoldaten wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
Yes, 2012 event only models. I think I picked it up at the FW open day.


The whole squad is outstanding. I know this is a very generic color scheme, but it's so well executed.


I wouldn't say it is a generic colour scheme.

This is the traditional scheme;



I think that Winterdyne has given it an excellent twist with adding the green, and moving the red to the visors and the yellow to the shoulders.'
On top of that he, as you said, have executed it very well.

I agree with you. You might say I agree+ with you.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 22:28:26


Post by: Ustrello


Steelmage99 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
Yes, 2012 event only models. I think I picked it up at the FW open day.


The whole squad is outstanding. I know this is a very generic color scheme, but it's so well executed.


I wouldn't say it is a generic colour scheme.

This is the traditional scheme;



I think that Winterdyne has given it an excellent twist with adding the green, and moving the red to the visors and the yellow to the shoulders.'
On top of that he, as you said, have executed it very well.

I agree with you. You might say I agree+ with you.


Ugh that yellow is so terrible


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/10 22:43:12


Post by: winterdyne


Let's not hijack the thread, eh?

I've bumped the showcase thread for those enforcers where I discussed the colour choices.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 00:18:12


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


 jonolikespie wrote:
Reading all this is making me want to go and have like 10 different people/studios do the same model for me with the same instructions and reference material to the highest standard they offer and review them all, comparing end result, price, time taken, ect.
Right right, we all know Winterdyne is great. I want to see THIS.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 04:27:29


Post by: Anpu-adom


I hope that this project turns out well for you. Everyone deserves to get their money's worth.
I've been following BTP for 3 years, dreaming of a day when my kids are out of diapers and I have that thing I hear other people talk about "disposable income" with which to get an army done. I've also fantasized about going to Valhalla or doing a painting camp. About a year ago, I removed them from my subscriptions because I couldn't keep up with the 3 or 4 videos per day.
Ok, enough rambling. I really have 2 things to say. #1. I too, find that their OSL tends to go over the top. #2. Companies with thousands of satisfied clients are rare in niche markets... and it isn't surprising BTP occasionally has difficulty transforming a person's vision into reality.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 04:36:17


Post by: Eldarain


 Anpu-adom wrote:

Ok, enough rambling. I really have 2 things to say. #1. I too, find that their OSL tends to go over the top. #2. Companies with thousands of satisfied clients are rare in niche markets... and it isn't surprising BTP occasionally has difficulty transforming a person's vision into reality.

It's pretty damn surprising that when they bungle a commission as badly as the Chaos Dwarf army which inspired all of this recent discussion that they choose to deal with it in such an insulting and unacceptable manner.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 08:11:06


Post by: Pyeatt


 Eldarain wrote:
 Anpu-adom wrote:

Ok, enough rambling. I really have 2 things to say. #1. I too, find that their OSL tends to go over the top. #2. Companies with thousands of satisfied clients are rare in niche markets... and it isn't surprising BTP occasionally has difficulty transforming a person's vision into reality.

It's pretty damn surprising that when they bungle a commission as badly as the Chaos Dwarf army which inspired all of this recent discussion that they choose to deal with it in such an insulting and unacceptable manner.


There's a thread for that.

Back to THIS thread, OP, why did you want the sharp angled fly over the rounded one?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 09:39:38


Post by: winterdyne


Presumably because he's got a Typhus in there, and that's the style that on his shoulder pad.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 10:36:49


Post by: M0ff3l


winterdyne wrote:
Presumably because he's got a Typhus in there, and that's the style that on his shoulder pad.


Exactly this. Also the Rhino is a very edgy vehicle, so I think it fits better.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/11 18:07:29


Post by: Anfauglir


 BewareOfTom wrote:
didnt see this yet, but here is the MWG ad video


Spoiler:




RoninXiC wrote:
The painting quality is atrocious


This has already been posted in the other, more directly related thread. Let's try and keep from having the same discussion here as well. Save this thread for posts/updates/discussion about the CSM commission and BTP's early process/communication with OP, as intended, eh?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/12 03:14:44


Post by: Pyeatt


Let me just say... BTP can seriously kitbash.. I think daemon wings or hive tyrant wings would have went better with the big bug, but still amazing work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 M0ff3l wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
Presumably because he's got a Typhus in there, and that's the style that on his shoulder pad.


Exactly this. Also the Rhino is a very edgy vehicle, so I think it fits better.


I don't play CSM, just really liked the circular fly. After a quick google search, I realized you're right about Typhus' shoulder pad. Good call, carry on.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/12 05:13:40


Post by: motyak


Limit your discussion to this thread, stuff to do with other BTP related shenanigans can be mostly confined to the other thread. Further OT stuff will receive warnings


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/12 09:59:25


Post by: -DE-


Steelmage99 wrote:
I think that Winterdyne has given it an excellent twist with adding the green, and moving the red to the visors and the yellow to the shoulders.'
On top of that he, as you said, have executed it very well.


Not to belittle Winterdyne, but that scheme is the original Judge Dredd scheme, not his own creation.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/12 10:04:13


Post by: winterdyne


In this thread they're irrelevant other than as an example of what 'level 5 / character/skirmish work' should look like.

Probably best to keep further discussion of enforcers etc here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/527098.page


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 04:02:05


Post by: conker249


General question since you are getting BTP's painting service. With them changing their number scales from current 2-7, to 2-10,(Saw in recent video) are they changing yours or updating it to their new system of scale painting?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 11:59:05


Post by: M0ff3l


 conker249 wrote:
General question since you are getting BTP's painting service. With them changing their number scales from current 2-7, to 2-10,(Saw in recent video) are they changing yours or updating it to their new system of scale painting?


Personally I believe people misunderstood shawn in that video, their scale has always been 1-10 but they only offered 2-6. To answer your question, I have not received any information about an updated painting scale. Which I assume I would be one of the first to be informed if they indeed updated it, as I am a current client.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 12:50:25


Post by: Dysartes


I take it your figures are still in transit, M0ff3l?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 13:07:56


Post by: Anpu-adom


 M0ff3l wrote:
 conker249 wrote:
General question since you are getting BTP's painting service. With them changing their number scales from current 2-7, to 2-10,(Saw in recent video) are they changing yours or updating it to their new system of scale painting?


Personally I believe people misunderstood shawn in that video, their scale has always been 1-10 but they only offered 2-6. To answer your question, I have not received any information about an updated painting scale. Which I assume I would be one of the first to be informed if they indeed updated it, as I am a current client.


That's how I understood it as well. When they first rolled out the scale years ago, Shawn mentioned doing insurance estimates... A golden daemon winning model or unit had better darn well be level 9 or 10.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 13:20:54


Post by: M0ff3l


 Dysartes wrote:
I take it your figures are still in transit, M0ff3l?


According to the tracking site they are now in the US waiting to be delivered to BTP, so soon I will hear from them hopefully.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 15:32:09


Post by: winterdyne


 Anpu-adom wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 conker249 wrote:
General question since you are getting BTP's painting service. With them changing their number scales from current 2-7, to 2-10,(Saw in recent video) are they changing yours or updating it to their new system of scale painting?


Personally I believe people misunderstood shawn in that video, their scale has always been 1-10 but they only offered 2-6. To answer your question, I have not received any information about an updated painting scale. Which I assume I would be one of the first to be informed if they indeed updated it, as I am a current client.


That's how I understood it as well. When they first rolled out the scale years ago, Shawn mentioned doing insurance estimates... A golden daemon winning model or unit had better darn well be level 9 or 10.


You cannot put a grade on a GD winning model. Winning GD is NOT just about the paintwork. I know, I got a demon out of some nice, but not technically excellent paintwork on a diorama that was designed from the outset just to tell a story (which is what I and others think got me the trophy).

You can't even put a grade on finalist. It's not a by-the-numbers competition - I have numerous finalist pieces that I simply picked out of the cabinet for something to put in. I have pieces that I really put effort into that sat on the shelf all day with ne'er a sticker in sight.

So those things are pointless - you can state whether it should potentially be a contender - I refer to that as competition grade (as do many other places), and it really just boils down to putting in your best effort. It's down to the artist what competition grade means. You can't do better than your best; but year on year and job on job you can certainly push on what your best is. In terms of charging for it - the time involved can range from quick, to ridiculously long - depending on style / detail / size / many other factors.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 16:47:48


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I think if we're going to go down the road of talking about what level is "GD level" then we should stick to referencing things BTP have actually said.

I'd imagine what BTP actually said is something along the lines of... this hypothetical level that we don't actually offer would be high quality to the point that we would consider worthy of entering in to a high level competition such as GD.

I can't help but feel the whole levels thing is getting taken out of context now that BTP have removed references to levels (which is their own fault, I know, but I'd still rather see what BTP themselves have said about their levels rather than 2nd hand recycled memories from forum dwellers).


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 19:49:28


Post by: plastictrees


As soon as you get anywhere close to something that could legitimately be described as 'Golden Demon Level' then the level system loses all meaning. You can't say that it gets X number of layers of paint or X amount of details.

My gold winning 40k squad would have failed to meet most 'number of highlights' criteria, and after judging I noticed that I had completely missed the detail on a skull on the commanders belt.
As winterdyne said it's all about how the various elements come together, trying to quantify work at that level is silly.

The best you can do is say, it will be as impressive and impactful as THIS: (pictures of awesome work).


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 20:19:50


Post by: jah-joshua


Edit: Plastictrees basically said the same thing while i was typing, and it is exactly my point on the subject...

i don't even understand why any painting service would postulate on what rating a GD level paintjob is, especially if they don't offer that level of service...
even more confusing, are they postulating on what level would be good enough to enter, good enough to win, or what???
the reality is, anyone can enter a contest, no matter there level of painting skill, and minis are judged against what is entered on the day, so both entries, and winners, are of variable skill levels in any given contest...
then there is open style judging, which is a whole other can of worms...
what's more, that is just one level, out of a possible ten, to try and quantify...
what a confusing mess...

in the last decade of being a professional painter, and contest competitor, i've only ever offered one level of service, which is the best of my ability...
over those ten years, my skill level, published work, prize wins, and prices have grown...
i try to push my skills further with each mini, develop a recognizable personal style, and strive to be considered among the best painters in the world...
this is a personal choice, and restricts my customer base to the high-end collectors, but is deeply satisfying, and customers know they will get something better than they expected...

cheers
jah



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 20:23:24


Post by: M0ff3l


I think you got the wrong topic jah-joshua, this thread is not about Tenebre...


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/15 20:25:10


Post by: jah-joshua


you're right, i did go off on a tangent there...
i'll edit that out...

cheers
jah


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 13:07:29


Post by: M0ff3l


Update!

They received my army, this is the mail I got:

Hi, Name!

We just unpacked the package you sent. We now have all the models for your Chaos Space Marines 01 project. Name will check through your instructions and let you know if we have any questions. Then it's on to assembly! I know you aren't having us assemble anything, but a few things (rhino bolter, sorcerer scythe, and biker meltagun) broke off in transit. We'll fix those fee of charge. Once those are taken care of, we'll move it into painting.

Thanks!
~Name


Nice of them to fix it free of charge, but holy moly am I glad my cypher appears to have survived the trip... maybe its because I wrapped him in 4 layers...


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 15:19:20


Post by: Dysartes


Glad to hear your stuff arrived mostly in one piece - I take it the use of Name in the quoted email was after you editted it?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 16:56:13


Post by: M0ff3l


 Dysartes wrote:
Glad to hear your stuff arrived mostly in one piece - I take it the use of Name in the quoted email was after you editted it?


Yes, as I said in the OP I will leave every employee name out of this.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 18:10:52


Post by: Medium of Death


Do BTP know about this thread?

I'd say it's probaby biased your dealing with the already. I doubt you'll get the "ten treatment" if they know you're making a public log of progress/results.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 18:49:29


Post by: M0ff3l


 Medium of Death wrote:
Do BTP know about this thread?

I'd say it's probaby biased your dealing with the already. I doubt you'll get the "ten treatment" if they know you're making a public log of progress/results.


I dont know if they know about it, I was debating asking them/showing it and asking for their opinion on this whole matter. But I do agree that this might skew the result. However I will also say that I was planning to make this entire post after I got my army back etc. But I got pressured to post it earlier because people were questioning my credibility.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 19:00:25


Post by: Casey's Law


 Medium of Death wrote:
Do BTP know about this thread?

I'd say it's probaby biased your dealing with the already. I doubt you'll get the "ten treatment" if they know you're making a public log of progress/results.
I think that's really the point at this stage. It's not going to be a good test of their service because we know they read these threads on all the major forums. What it will do is make sure the OP gets a better than average product for his bucks. They know that if they mess up here that's another nail in the coffin so he is going to get better service than anyone else would.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 21:05:57


Post by: swampyturtle


Lets remember the other side of the coin guys. M0ff3l's army if it is being watched by BTP is safer than Tens was because they know if they screw up then that's another nail in the coffin. Instead of it being a test of BTP, its keeping them accountable for the job they promised to do.

M0ff3l, personally i still confused why you used BTP when there are amazing painters in Europe for you to use. However, I want to say that's only my opinion and i appreciate you going through this for the community to show us how a BTP interaction works.

So Thank you for taking the time to put this all together. Your doing a service, (Like Ten) for the community at large.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 21:14:24


Post by: Casey's Law


 Casey's Law wrote:
It's not going to be a good test of their service because we know they read these threads on all the major forums. What it will do is make sure the OP gets a better than average product for his bucks. They know that if they mess up here that's another nail in the coffin so he is going to get better service than anyone else would.
 swampyturtle wrote:
Lets remember the other side of the coin guys. M0ff3l's army if it is being watched by BTP is safer than Tens was because they know if they screw up then that's another nail in the coffin. Instead of it being a test of BTP, its keeping them accountable for the job they promised to do.
Did you really just reiterate exactly what I said as if it was the opposite of what I said? Yes, yes you did.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/22 21:38:57


Post by: swampyturtle


 Casey's Law wrote:
 Casey's Law wrote:
It's not going to be a good test of their service because we know they read these threads on all the major forums. What it will do is make sure the OP gets a better than average product for his bucks. They know that if they mess up here that's another nail in the coffin so he is going to get better service than anyone else would.
 swampyturtle wrote:
Lets remember the other side of the coin guys. M0ff3l's army if it is being watched by BTP is safer than Tens was because they know if they screw up then that's another nail in the coffin. Instead of it being a test of BTP, its keeping them accountable for the job they promised to do.
Did you really just reiterate exactly what I said as if it was the opposite of what I said? Yes, yes you did.


Maybe


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 14:55:31


Post by: timetowaste85


Has there been any news on this? I actually thought the thread had been nuked, as no updates have shown up and I didn't see it on page 1 or even 2 of discussions. OP has been quite silent about how things have been going: wanted to see if any news has reached you yet about the beginning of your project.

Also, I know this comes down to personal choice, but if I was asking for a combo conversion and the studio charged me for a full Rhino to get the part, that would have been enough to get me to go elsewhere. Or you could have offered to buy the rhino (and sell what you didn't need) and send them the part to add on. I feel like they really took advantage of you here.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 15:19:07


Post by: tgjensen


OP writes on the first page that projects tend to take 4-10 weeks. BTP only received the models four days ago. I'd be surprised if anything noteworthy has been done in such a short time.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 17:53:40


Post by: M0ff3l


The repairs are done and the project is being moved to the painters floor. The next update I get will be pictures of the finished project and if I approve of them.

So this thread will go silent for a while I guess, but Im sure that when I get the pictures there will be a lot more discussing going on.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 19:42:20


Post by: Ustrello


 M0ff3l wrote:
The repairs are done and the project is being moved to the painters floor. The next update I get will be pictures of the finished project and if I approve of them.

So this thread will go silent for a while I guess, but Im sure that when I get the pictures there will be a lot more discussing going on.


So in a few weeks when the project is done?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 20:35:03


Post by: Azazelx


I thought you'd be getting WIP photos?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 timetowaste85 wrote:

Also, I know this comes down to personal choice, but if I was asking for a combo conversion and the studio charged me for a full Rhino to get the part, that would have been enough to get me to go elsewhere. Or you could have offered to buy the rhino (and sell what you didn't need) and send them the part to add on. I feel like they really took advantage of you here.


Really? I missed that part. Yeah, if they charged you for a Rhino, then they need to give you the rest of the kit. That's fething dodgy, if true.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 20:51:50


Post by: Alfndrate


 Azazelx wrote:
I thought you'd be getting WIP photos?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 timetowaste85 wrote:

Also, I know this comes down to personal choice, but if I was asking for a combo conversion and the studio charged me for a full Rhino to get the part, that would have been enough to get me to go elsewhere. Or you could have offered to buy the rhino (and sell what you didn't need) and send them the part to add on. I feel like they really took advantage of you here.


Really? I missed that part. Yeah, if they charged you for a Rhino, then they need to give you the rest of the kit. That's fething dodgy, if true.

This is from their Terms of Service:

http://bluetablepainting.com/terms-of-service/
Bitz
Extra parts from kits that we buy on behalf of a client are not returned except on request. This allows us to keep the cost of conversions down– clients that leave their bitz with us benefit other clients and vice versa. The request has to be made in the Assembly portion of your Instructions sheet.


So it's probable that they bought the kit, pulled the bit and charged the client for the entire model...


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 20:56:37


Post by: Eldarain


Charging the price of a Rhino for a couple bits sure is "keeping the cost of conversions down"


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 20:57:34


Post by: timetowaste85


Exactly. It's a joke. Then again, if the buyer is okay with it...shrug. His money. But I'd go somewhere else. Buying them two free tanks to add two small guns on is complete BS, putting it in their ToS doesn't make it right. Moff3l, I hope they do you some serious damn justice as a paint job. Because at the moment it looks like you're getting robbed blind. Good luck.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 21:49:36


Post by: kb305


Nothing wrong with only sending bits if it's requested, most people buying painted models probably don't care.

you guys are sounding cheap and bitter at this point.

tattoo artist charge between 140-200 dollars per hour, I'm just saying.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 21:56:42


Post by: Ustrello


kb305 wrote:
Nothing wrong with only sending bits if it's requested, most people buying painted models probably don't care.

you guys are sounding cheap and bitter at this point.

tattoo artist charge between 140-200 dollars per hour, I'm just saying.


For initial work, afterwords their prices drop significantly.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 22:42:47


Post by: Alfndrate


kb305 wrote:
Nothing wrong with only sending bits if it's requested, most people buying painted models probably don't care.

you guys are sounding cheap and bitter at this point.

tattoo artist charge between 140-200 dollars per hour, I'm just saying.

If I was charged 65 dollars for a havoc launcher I'd be just north of livid if I did not receive the rest of the Rhino. I could have bought the kit for far less than that and shipped them the launcher.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 22:56:08


Post by: Thairne


I understand less and less why BTP is still in business. This Rhinothing really is nothing short of a scam...
Just compare it to how the GOOD guys treat their customers... 4 days and no pics? In 4 days DoI hat my freakin' Fire Raptor completely painted!


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 23:18:11


Post by: RivenSkull


 Eldarain wrote:
Charging the price of a Rhino for a couple bits sure is "keeping the cost of conversions down"


This is the same company that charged $60 to swap hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers.

But keeping bits keeps the cost down


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 23:30:31


Post by: Lockark


 RivenSkull wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Charging the price of a Rhino for a couple bits sure is "keeping the cost of conversions down"


This is the same company that charged $60 to swap hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers.

But keeping bits keeps the cost down


So not only dose he make you pay for a rhino+work, he then get's to keep the rhino and sell it at a premium over normal retail once it's painted and assembled in the next studio army.

He must make a nice profit off the free rhinos he gets to sell to other people at the end of that day.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/26 23:57:47


Post by: Stormwall


 Lockark wrote:
 RivenSkull wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Charging the price of a Rhino for a couple bits sure is "keeping the cost of conversions down"


This is the same company that charged $60 to swap hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers.

But keeping bits keeps the cost down


So not only dose he make you pay for a rhino+work, he then get's to keep the rhino and sell it at a premium over normal retail once it's painted and assembled in the next studio army.

He must make a nice profit off the free rhinos he gets to sell to other people at the end of that day.


Well, I mean this guy did jump into buying from BTP just because of Ten's thread. I too thought we were going to be getting some WIP photos, not to sound salty. Regardless, I'd be going off like a St.helens if I got charged a rhino for a weapon swap/for a bit. This guy doesn't seem to care though, he loves throwing money at a "good company."


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 00:13:34


Post by: Bi'ios


 Lockark wrote:
 RivenSkull wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Charging the price of a Rhino for a couple bits sure is "keeping the cost of conversions down"


This is the same company that charged $60 to swap hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers.

But keeping bits keeps the cost down


So not only dose he make you pay for a rhino+work, he then get's to keep the rhino and sell it at a premium over normal retail once it's painted and assembled in the next studio army.

He must make a nice profit off the free rhinos he gets to sell to other people at the end of that day.


Unless he wants the rhino. Which it says they'd give to him if he requested it. They already charged him for it, so he can either leave it as a "tip", or ask for it back. What happens to it afterward really doesn't matter.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 00:46:58


Post by: Lockark


 Bi'ios wrote:
 Lockark wrote:
 RivenSkull wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Charging the price of a Rhino for a couple bits sure is "keeping the cost of conversions down"


This is the same company that charged $60 to swap hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers.

But keeping bits keeps the cost down


So not only dose he make you pay for a rhino+work, he then get's to keep the rhino and sell it at a premium over normal retail once it's painted and assembled in the next studio army.

He must make a nice profit off the free rhinos he gets to sell to other people at the end of that day.


Unless he wants the rhino. Which it says they'd give to him if he requested it. They already charged him for it, so he can either leave it as a "tip", or ask for it back. What happens to it afterward really doesn't matter.


I know for a fact their was a period of time that BTP use to keep all the bits from any kit they got. This police was "changed" after people started raising a stink in their youtube comments. This came about when he started bragging about his bits wall, and people started becoming aware with the fact he was obsessed with hoarding them.

Even after that their is a track record for them "forgetting" to ship it with the rest of your stuff, and then asking for you to pay additional in shipping for the "bitz" separate. They will not pay for their own "mistake". I recall this happening a few times to people that had projects with BTP. Many do no bother fighting/paying BTP even more just to get their bitz back and drop the issue.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 09:25:30


Post by: Herzlos


 Bi'ios wrote:
Unless he wants the rhino. Which it says they'd give to him if he requested it. They already charged him for it, so he can either leave it as a "tip", or ask for it back. What happens to it afterward really doesn't matter.


They should be at least asking him if he wants the rest of the sprue, or returning it by default, instead of requiring you ask them in the assembly stage. Especially if it's a single irrelevant bit from a large kit. Personally, if they'd bought 2 tank kits on my behalf and charged me full price I'd be assuming the rest of the kit was coming back to me.

If they'd already had a store bits box, then I'd expect to only pay a fair price for the bit and not see anything back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thairne wrote:
I understand less and less why BTP is still in business. This Rhinothing really is nothing short of a scam...


I'm starting to wonder that as well. Everything seems a bit scammy.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 14:36:10


Post by: winterdyne


I charge for kits bought for use as bits, and I operate with the assumption that unused bits go in the pool. I do also use a lot of bits that I have without charge, if something fits the pose, style or whatever I am trying to achieve.

However, I state when I'm doing so and usually suggest that something be done with those bits. As 'written' I too would keep a Rhino bought for one part (but it would have been more efficient to buy the part only from a bits reseller). I wouldn't suggest buying a kit if it was inefficient to the client.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 14:42:30


Post by: Herzlos


winterdyne wrote:
However, I state when I'm doing so and usually suggest that something be done with those bits.


As in you tell them that you normally keep the sprue, and suggest additional sprue parts that can be used in the users projects? That seems fair, everything is up front and you're trying to be cost effective.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 14:45:33


Post by: Thairne


It's definately a more honest approach. Just telling how many missed that "detail" in the comission in the first part.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 15:00:03


Post by: Lockark


winterdyne wrote:
I charge for kits bought for use as bits, and I operate with the assumption that unused bits go in the pool. I do also use a lot of bits that I have without charge, if something fits the pose, style or whatever I am trying to achieve.

However, I state when I'm doing so and usually suggest that something be done with those bits. As 'written' I too would keep a Rhino bought for one part (but it would have been more efficient to buy the part only from a bits reseller). I wouldn't suggest buying a kit if it was inefficient to the client.


But do you buy a new in box tac squad just for a single melta gun or missile launcher, then keep the rest of the box for your self?

Like if you built a tac out of the box, and kept the unused bits that's fine, or if you at least check bit sellers before resorting to buying a whole box of dudes.

But when your 1st choice to get a single thunder hammer is to buy a box of termies, then keep the rest of it for your self unless your client fights with you to get them. Because every story of btp communication I've heard is pulling teeth.

I agree their is a fine line between reasonable and unreasonable in this situation.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 15:01:45


Post by: winterdyne


Herzlos wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
However, I state when I'm doing so and usually suggest that something be done with those bits.


As in you tell them that you normally keep the sprue, and suggest additional sprue parts that can be used in the users projects? That seems fair, everything is up front and you're trying to be cost effective.


Yeah. As I normally work from unbuilt stock, getting in a box of Death Company to tart up rank and file Blood Angels (for example) is worthwhile. Obviously there I'd end up with spare bits and bobs which could be used later (if I have parts handy) on other projects. I'm currently using Lizardman bit leftovers on the Mayan marines I'm doing for example - client's not had to pay for parts, there, but did pay for a sanguinary guard set a long time ago which is still donating parts (both to his projects and others) now. What goes around comes around - my objective is obviously not to find myself out of pocket on a job. I don't see why that should necessarily put the clients out for stuff they've not used. Sometimes, if I know the parts will be useful I only charge a portion of the cost of the kit I'm getting in for bits. Again, I try to be fair.

Edit: I might buy in a tac squad box for a weapon if I think the rest of it would be useful - I'd probably charge a going rate for parts if only one is used (bitzbox.co.uk is my go-to guy). If half the squad is going to be used as casualties or corpses on a diorama, I'd charge for half the squad.

Edit2: I usually specify a conversion budget on a project, which includes any parts to buy for use beyond a stock build, as well as actual chopping and greenstuffing time. If I have the spare parts available already I usually don't charge at all for them.

Of course sometimes you're left with bits that have no clear purpose - I did a Obyron destroyer lord a while back, the client paid for a destroyer and Obyron. Still have a destroyer torso (Obyron's legs were destroyed in the process) that I may use eventually for something, but no idea what right now. Sometimes you're left after part-wrangling with significant spares - I have a whole Warhound titan (yes, all parts, some in multiples) that could be built, albeit with significant work to repair casting problems.




Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 15:09:55


Post by: Lockark


So yah, that sounds reasonable, and the way it should be handled in all honesty. Giveing the client a price break on kits your keeping for bits is totally reasonable.

It's just btp pocketing a whole rhino as "left over bits" after makeing someone eals pay for the whole kit is outrageous.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 16:11:51


Post by: Peregrine


 Lockark wrote:
Even after that their is a track record for them "forgetting" to ship it with the rest of your stuff, and then asking for you to pay additional in shipping for the "bitz" separate. They will not pay for their own "mistake". I recall this happening a few times to people that had projects with BTP. Many do no bother fighting/paying BTP even more just to get their bitz back and drop the issue.


"Hello {bank that issued my credit card}, I would like to report a case of fraud. Why yes, I would like to initiate a chargeback against BTP, thank you for being so helpful."


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 18:02:25


Post by: rigeld2


 M0ff3l wrote:
The repairs are done and the project is being moved to the painters floor. The next update I get will be pictures of the finished project and if I approve of them.

So this thread will go silent for a while I guess, but Im sure that when I get the pictures there will be a lot more discussing going on.

No test models? Just "We're done -ready to ship?" That seems awkward.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 18:11:51


Post by: winterdyne


It sounds risky from a business point of view. Proof of concept is normally needed in most large projects. Btp assume the instruction sheet is gospel, and as I think I said earlier in my experience it very rarely is.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 18:44:58


Post by: M0ff3l


I have asked a mod to close the thread. This post was made to showcase how an average interaction works with BTP. As the very first sentence states I didnt want it turning into another hate bandwagon. Which probably half of you didnt read as most of you only now start raging at the 60$ conversion even though that was in the opening post from the start... Also I cant believe how unthankfull you people are, I make this thread to give an honest review from start to finish and you people criticize me for having BTP make my army etc. Its my money, they are my models and its my choice. So If there is anything you want to ask me related to how working with BTP was so far or any other questions about the general process with BTP, ask me now or PM me.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 18:51:44


Post by: Ustrello


Coward


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:14:16


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae




Reported.

I dislike BTP as much as anyone but the guy is right, this thread is supposed to be an objective, neutral blog to document the BTP process. But you prats are just hijacking it to make it your own personal rant thread. Take it to Tenebre's thread.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:17:48


Post by: Azreal13


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Reported.

I dislike BTP as much as anyone but the guy is right, this thread is supposed to be an objective, neutral blog to document the BTP process. But you prats are just hijacking it to make it your own personal rant thread. Take it to Tenebre's thread.


If it were truly meant to be objective and neutral, starting a discussion thread was a flawed idea from the get go. At least, one created before/during the event.

EDIT
Oh, and don't declare you're reporting someone for name calling and then call them names - kinda undermines your position.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:18:56


Post by: Lockark


 M0ff3l wrote:
I have asked a mod to close the thread. This post was made to showcase how an average interaction works with BTP. As the very first sentence states I didnt want it turning into another hate bandwagon. Which probably half of you didnt read as most of you only now start raging at the 60$ conversion even though that was in the opening post from the start... Also I cant believe how unthankfull you people are, I make this thread to give an honest review from start to finish and you people criticize me for having BTP make my army etc. Its my money, they are my models and its my choice. So If there is anything you want to ask me related to how working with BTP was so far or any other questions about the general process with BTP, ask me now or PM me.


If the $60 conversion involved buying a whole new rhino to get the parts, ask for them to send the rest of the rhino on sprue back to you with the army. You could easily resell the rest of the kit at like $20 to someone locally to you.

I'm outraged at the fact your just letting them pocket a whole rhino off of you.



Uncalled for.....


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:24:56


Post by: Ustrello


 Lockark wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
I have asked a mod to close the thread. This post was made to showcase how an average interaction works with BTP. As the very first sentence states I didnt want it turning into another hate bandwagon. Which probably half of you didnt read as most of you only now start raging at the 60$ conversion even though that was in the opening post from the start... Also I cant believe how unthankfull you people are, I make this thread to give an honest review from start to finish and you people criticize me for having BTP make my army etc. Its my money, they are my models and its my choice. So If there is anything you want to ask me related to how working with BTP was so far or any other questions about the general process with BTP, ask me now or PM me.


If the $60 conversion involved buying a whole new rhino to get the parts, ask for them to send the rest of the rhino on sprue back to you with the army. You could easily resell the rest of the kit at like $20 to someone locally to you.

I'm outraged at the fact your just letting them pocket a whole rhino off of you.



Uncalled for.....


a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

He sits there and rags on tenebre and calls him out, then when it happens to him its all of a sudden too much and shuts it down.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:26:44


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Azreal13 wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Reported.

I dislike BTP as much as anyone but the guy is right, this thread is supposed to be an objective, neutral blog to document the BTP process. But you prats are just hijacking it to make it your own personal rant thread. Take it to Tenebre's thread.


If it were truly meant to be objective and neutral, starting a discussion thread was a flawed idea from the get go. At least, one created before/during the event.

EDIT
Oh, and don't declare you're reporting someone for name calling and then call them names - kinda undermines your position.


I think even the mods would agree that calling people cowards is prattish behaviour.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:27:08


Post by: M0ff3l


 Azreal13 wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Reported.

I dislike BTP as much as anyone but the guy is right, this thread is supposed to be an objective, neutral blog to document the BTP process. But you prats are just hijacking it to make it your own personal rant thread. Take it to Tenebre's thread.


If it were truly meant to be objective and neutral, starting a discussion thread was a flawed idea from the get go. At least, one created before/during the event.

EDIT
Oh, and don't declare you're reporting someone for name calling and then call them names - kinda undermines your position.


I would like to remind you that people were basically calling me a liar/accusing me of being a BTP employee in tenebre's thread for wanting to make this thread AFTER the entire process was done. ALSO the post was originally in the painting & modelling blogs but was moved by a moderator.

And now I am being called a coward because people cant read/dont want to follow the rules I set in my threads.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:28:37


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ustrello wrote:
a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

He sits there and rags on tenebre and calls him out, then when it happens to him its all of a sudden too much and shuts it down.


Regardless, its off topic. Take it to Tenebre's thread.

I want to watch this BTP project from start to finish. That won't happen if you guys hijack this thread and prompt the OP to close it.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:29:53


Post by: Ustrello


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Reported.

I dislike BTP as much as anyone but the guy is right, this thread is supposed to be an objective, neutral blog to document the BTP process. But you prats are just hijacking it to make it your own personal rant thread. Take it to Tenebre's thread.


The hypocrisy is strong in this one.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:30:45


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Still off topic.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:33:56


Post by: Azreal13


 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Reported.

I dislike BTP as much as anyone but the guy is right, this thread is supposed to be an objective, neutral blog to document the BTP process. But you prats are just hijacking it to make it your own personal rant thread. Take it to Tenebre's thread.


If it were truly meant to be objective and neutral, starting a discussion thread was a flawed idea from the get go. At least, one created before/during the event.

EDIT
Oh, and don't declare you're reporting someone for name calling and then call them names - kinda undermines your position.


I would like to remind you that people were basically calling me a liar/accusing me of being a BTP employee in tenebre's thread for wanting to make this thread AFTER the entire process was done. ALSO the post was originally in the painting & modelling blogs but was moved by a moderator.

And now I am being called a coward because people cant read/dont want to follow the rules I set in my threads.


I'm sorry to tell you, but unless the discussion is off topic or breaks some other Dakka rule, and consequently becomes a moderation issue, you have no more right to set "rules" in your thread than I do. We all tacitly agree to be bound by forum rules by continuing to post here, one of those rules is not to only talk about what other people tell us it is ok to talk about.

You cannot have been ignorant to the controversy this thread may have attracted when starting it, and if you weren't prepared to rise above it, ignore it or confront it, then I stand by my assertion that starting a discussion thread perhaps wasn't the best idea - Dakka has an article system that may have better suited your purposes.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:34:03


Post by: Ustrello




Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:40:57


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ustrello wrote:


Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Says the person who's committing the same behaviour that he's accusing M0ff3l of.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:42:50


Post by: Ustrello


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:


Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Says the person who's committing the same behaviour that he's accusing M0ff3l of.


Being a coward? No i'd say not, I called you out on your behavior that is facing the problem head on

Anyways I am done with you.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:44:14


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ustrello wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:


Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Says the person who's committing the same behaviour that he's accusing M0ff3l of.


Being a coward? No i'd say not, I called you out on your behavior that is facing the problem head on


Accusing him of lying. Hijacking the thread.

Anyways I am done with you.


Good riddance.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:44:57


Post by: M0ff3l


 Ustrello wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:


Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Says the person who's committing the same behaviour that he's accusing M0ff3l of.


Being a coward? No i'd say not, I called you out on your behavior that is facing the problem head on

Anyways I am done with you.


Youre argueing/calling names over the internet, basically the embodiment of courage right?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:45:42


Post by: Ustrello


 M0ff3l wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:


Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Says the person who's committing the same behaviour that he's accusing M0ff3l of.


Being a coward? No i'd say not, I called you out on your behavior that is facing the problem head on

Anyways I am done with you.


Youre argueing/calling names over the internet, basically the embodiment of courage right?


And you doing the same in tenebre's thread?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:47:44


Post by: M0ff3l


 Ustrello wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:


Still a hypocrite. Also it doesn't matter as OP asked for it to be locked.


Says the person who's committing the same behaviour that he's accusing M0ff3l of.


Being a coward? No i'd say not, I called you out on your behavior that is facing the problem head on

Anyways I am done with you.


Youre argueing/calling names over the internet, basically the embodiment of courage right?


And you doing the same in tenebre's thread?


Please quote ANY post I made where I called tenebre anything.

The only thing I did in tenebres thread was being skeptic and asking for proof, and not in the form of a 40 minute video.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:48:58


Post by: Azreal13


Please, can we try to act with just a modicum of maturity, so the thread is simply closed, rather than closed with extreme prejudice, I'm seeing enough backbiting here to result in some time on the naughty step - remember it is Thanksgiving and many of the Mods will be drunk.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:50:07


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


M0ff3l, just ignore him. Add him to your block list. If they want to rant, let them rant amongst themselves.

Just post your updates and keep everyone informed.

I'm by no means a fan of BTP (as anyone can see by my posts in Tenebre's thread) but I want to see this whole process and project play out.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:54:45


Post by: M0ff3l


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
M0ff3l, just ignore him. Add him to your block list. If they want to rant, let them rant amongst themselves.

Just post your updates and keep everyone informed.

I'm by no means a fan of BTP (as anyone can see by my posts in Tenebre's thread) but I want to see this whole process and project play out.


Im thankfull for your support of this thread, but im done with it. I already asked for the closing and Im happy. If all the people want is more reason to rage at BTP I wont put effort into supplying it for them.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 19:55:39


Post by: Stormwall


You guys are acting like kids on a playground. Just block him.

As far as setting your own rules OP, the only people here who do this are the moderators and administrators of Dakka, you have as much control as I do or a man on the moon.

Quite frankly, these posts are right to a degree though. Now that your work seems to be in jeopardy by BTP/others are criticizing your actions, you are okay with the thread lock. Also, you did white knight this little project of yours in BTP's threads just to spite Ten. Now that it hasn't gone all rainbows and sunshine for you, you want the lock. Those of us following this want to see what happens so we can quite calmly state "I told you so," or something else, should you actually get what you pay for.

Honestly OP, I would be livid over a company walking off with a rhino worth of bits. To each his own but, throwing money at a scammy charity is stupid.

Anyways, I hope this thread stays open so that we may see the fruits of your, and BTP's labors.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:03:08


Post by: Alpharius


Wow.

Just...wow.

Next person to break the rules in this thread?

Loooooong vacation from Dakka Dakka.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:03:45


Post by: M0ff3l


 motyak wrote:
Limit your discussion to this thread, stuff to do with other BTP related shenanigans can be mostly confined to the other thread. Further OT stuff will receive warnings


I would like to redirect you to this post by a MOD made earlier in this thread when things went off rails. So clearly there is some agreement between me and the mods about what this topic is for. Yes I cant set rules, what I did was warn people that I would do exactly what I did when this thread became a hate wagon against BTP like tenebres thread.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:20:03


Post by: Azreal13


Granted, but people's reaction to how much you have been charged for an element of your project is absolutely on topic. If that's been largely negative, it may suggest something to you.

You're absolutely correct that it's your money and your models, but if you're going to share this information in a public forum, you have no right to dictate how people react to it.

Frankly, I'm only surprised at the fact that it seems to have been a substantial delay between you sharing the info about the Havoc Launchers and the apparent backlash, I remember commenting something akin to "you could buy the whole Rhino for that" what feels like weeks ago, but it didn't appear to phase anyone else back then.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:25:39


Post by: jah-joshua


commenting on personal feelings about being charged for two Chaos Rhino kits to get two Havoc Launchers is very much on topic...
some people feel you are getting ripped off in this instance...
you are obviously fine with their policy...
a difference of opinion is not an attack on you, nor is the subject off-topic...
it is directly related to this commission that you are having done...

calling out the fact that you are not being given pics of work in progress, or a test mini for the scheme to get approved is more worrying than the bits policy...
how do you know that you will be getting the look that you want???
this is an honest question to you, by the way, MOff3I...

cheers
jah


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:27:46


Post by: M0ff3l


 Azreal13 wrote:
Granted, but people's reaction to how much you have been charged for an element of your project is absolutely on topic. If that's been largely negative, it may suggest something to you.

You're absolutely correct that it's your money and your models, but if you're going to share this information in a public forum, you have no right to dictate how people react to it.

Frankly, I'm only surprised at the fact that it seems to have been a substantial delay between you sharing the info about the Havoc Launchers and the apparent backlash, I remember commenting something akin to "you could buy the whole Rhino for that" what feels like weeks ago, but it didn't appear to phase anyone else back then.


Thats just because Tenebres thread is slowing down, so people are now actively looking for reasons they can flame BTP for... And youre right, there was going to be negative feedback. But people on this forum could be bit more polite and reasonable. If the responses had been something along the lines of:

Hey M0ff3l, I believe paying 60$ for 2 havoc launchers is a rip off, you should send them an email asking for clearafecation of this and maybe ask them if you can get the rest of the kit they took the bits from.

instead of:

WOW I CANT BELIEVE BTP CHARGES THAT MUCH AND THEN WONT EVEN GIVE THE BITS BACK TO THE CLIENT WHO DIDNT EVEN ASK FOR THAT YET JEEZ!

Because honestly, I only saw 1 post resembling my first example and the rest were all along the lines of that second example. And that is the exact reason why I am happy this thread is getting closed.


 jah-joshua wrote:
commenting on personal feelings about being charged for two Chaos Rhino kits to get two Havoc Launchers is very much on topic...
some people feel you are getting ripped off in this instance...
you are obviously fine with their policy...
a difference of opinion is not an attack on you, nor is the subject off-topic...
it is directly related to this commission that you are having done...

calling out the fact that you are not being given pics of work in progress, or a test mini for the scheme to get approved is more worrying than the bits policy...
how do you know that you will be getting the look that you want???
this is an honest question to you, by the way, MOff3I...

cheers
jah


I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:32:02


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Because honestly, I only saw 1 post resembling my first example and the rest were all along the lines of that second example. And that is the exact reason why I am happy this thread is getting closed.


What, so you're not going to document the process now?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:32:20


Post by: Flippa


Is it getting closed? I've seen mod activity since you requested it and it's still open?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:32:26


Post by: Stormwall


See, I would comment on what you said about instructions but, you've made it clear Ten's thread cannot be discussed in correlation to yours. Still, it's almost impossible not to due to your behavior on the other thread, so I'm going to leave this one and lurk on it instead, or PM you my thoughts directly.

Also, this.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Because honestly, I only saw 1 post resembling my first example and the rest were all along the lines of that second example. And that is the exact reason why I am happy this thread is getting closed.


What, so you're not going to document the process now?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:33:50


Post by: Flippa


 M0ff3l wrote:


I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Do you honestly think repainting an army is more time efficient than painting 1 mini and sending you some HD pics?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:33:53


Post by: M0ff3l


 Flippa wrote:
Is it getting closed? I've seen mod activity since you requested it and it's still open?


The mod who posted and the mod I pm'd are not the same. I didnt pm every single mod on the forum to close my thread...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Because honestly, I only saw 1 post resembling my first example and the rest were all along the lines of that second example. And that is the exact reason why I am happy this thread is getting closed.


What, so you're not going to document the process now?


Clearly it is not appreciated, so no I will not put anymore effort into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Flippa wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:


I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Do you honestly think repainting an army is more time efficient than painting 1 mini and sending you some HD pics?


If they can get enough projects right on the first try then yes I would believe so.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:36:14


Post by: Stormwall


Edited: See, I want to post something but, I'm afraid to due to the weird setup this thread has. Is it cool if I just PM it to one of you guys or the mods to see if it is alright to post?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:36:43


Post by: Flippa


And if they don't then they have weeks or months worth of repaints?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:38:36


Post by: M0ff3l


 Stormwall wrote:
Edited: See, I want to post something but, I'm afraid to due to the weird setup this thread has. Is it cool if I just PM it to one of you guys or the mods to see if it is alright to post?


The thread is already getting closed, so at this point, post what ever pleases you.

EDIT: that is ofcourse as long as it follows the regular rules for posting.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:41:04


Post by: Stormwall


 M0ff3l wrote:
 Stormwall wrote:
Edited: See, I want to post something but, I'm afraid to due to the weird setup this thread has. Is it cool if I just PM it to one of you guys or the mods to see if it is alright to post?


The thread is already getting closed, so at this point, post what ever pleases you.


 M0ff3l wrote:

I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Very well. What is the difference between what Ten showed that he did in his videos than you've done here? You've not gotten any wips like you hinted at, which is worrying, the paint scheme (nurgle,) is simple, and then the bit issue that suddenly blew up on here. If I recall correctly, Ten left /tons/ of instructions for BTP and they were not followed at all. I understand this is for a fair review but, what I don't understand is how is it more efficient that your army gets repainted and shipped about several times than getting it right the first time?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:41:54


Post by: M0ff3l


 Flippa wrote:
And if they don't then they have weeks or months worth of repaints?


I dont think that they mess up projects with detailed instructions to the point where they have to spend months changing it very often. Yes that is what happened to Tenebres project, but Im sure if that happened on the regular BTP would be out of business by now.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:43:07


Post by: Stormwall


Oh then you just pretty much answered what I wrote then. Edit: I hope you don't get burned on this deal but, I was hoping that you would keep this open.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:47:00


Post by: M0ff3l


 Stormwall wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Stormwall wrote:
Edited: See, I want to post something but, I'm afraid to due to the weird setup this thread has. Is it cool if I just PM it to one of you guys or the mods to see if it is alright to post?


The thread is already getting closed, so at this point, post what ever pleases you.


 M0ff3l wrote:

I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Very well. What is the difference between what Ten did in his videos than you've done here? You've not gotten any wips like you hinted at, which is worrying, your army shipped, and then the bit issue that suddenly blew up on here. If I recall correctly, Ten left tons of instructions for BTP and they were not followed at all. And how is it more efficient that your army gets repainted and shipped about several times than getting it right the first time?


I did not ask for any WIP pictures as you can see from every email I posted in the OP. Also who was talking about shipping anything? They send you pictures when they are done painting then you do 1 of 3 things:
1) you feel like its not the way you described in your instructions and give them a few pointers as to why - they change it for free
2) they followed your instructions but you dont like it that much - they change it for a fee
3) you approve they ship it back to you.

Maybe you are confused, they have not put any paint on my models and certainly have not shipped them to me... They will send me pictures once they are done painting and before shipping them to me. What I believe happened with Tenebre is that they completely messed up the instructions and the instructions for the repairs so he just asked it to be shipped to him. But I certainly do not believe that this is how every project with them goes.

EDIT: Also what the difference is between this and tenebres thread, Tenebre received a faulty product and made a review of the product and how he was dissapointed with it and the company. This is a thread made to showcase how an interaction with BTP works, showing emails, instructions, pricing etc. And then compare the instructions to the product I received and the price I paid for said product. From the start Tenebres thread was negative, mine was supposed to be neutral.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:49:51


Post by: Flippa


 M0ff3l wrote:
 Flippa wrote:
And if they don't then they have weeks or months worth of repaints?


I dont think that they mess up projects with detailed instructions to the point where they have to spend months changing it very often. Yes that is what happened to Tenebres project, but Im sure if that happened on the regular BTP would be out of business by now.


It appears that BTP has indeed gone through several iterations of company. I wouldn't like to speculate as to why Shawn didn't file renewal documents on other BTP's. I hope that your army comes back and that it's everything you hoped it would be, and that you'll share with us, even if it's an article post with no replies.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:52:21


Post by: Stormwall


I reread the start of the thread, dangers of playing telephone, I must have misread someone elses post.

According to the process you just listed, it seems like a QC error shouldn't happen. Still, we will see how it goes.

 Flippa wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Flippa wrote:
And if they don't then they have weeks or months worth of repaints?


I dont think that they mess up projects with detailed instructions to the point where they have to spend months changing it very often. Yes that is what happened to Tenebres project, but Im sure if that happened on the regular BTP would be out of business by now.


It appears that BTP has indeed gone through several iterations of company. I wouldn't like to speculate as to why Shawn didn't file renewal documents on other BTP's. I hope that your army comes back and that it's everything you hoped it would be, and that you'll share with us, even if it's an article post with no replies.


Sums it up nicely. If you don't pursue the thread, I hope you consider an article.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 20:53:44


Post by: Azreal13


 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Granted, but people's reaction to how much you have been charged for an element of your project is absolutely on topic. If that's been largely negative, it may suggest something to you.

You're absolutely correct that it's your money and your models, but if you're going to share this information in a public forum, you have no right to dictate how people react to it.

Frankly, I'm only surprised at the fact that it seems to have been a substantial delay between you sharing the info about the Havoc Launchers and the apparent backlash, I remember commenting something akin to "you could buy the whole Rhino for that" what feels like weeks ago, but it didn't appear to phase anyone else back then.


Thats just because Tenebres thread is slowing down, so people are now actively looking for reasons they can flame BTP for... And youre right, there was going to be negative feedback. But people on this forum could be bit more polite and reasonable. If the responses had been something along the lines of:

Hey M0ff3l, I believe paying 60$ for 2 havoc launchers is a rip off, you should send them an email asking for clearafecation of this and maybe ask them if you can get the rest of the kit they took the bits from.

instead of:

WOW I CANT BELIEVE BTP CHARGES THAT MUCH AND THEN WONT EVEN GIVE THE BITS BACK TO THE CLIENT WHO DIDNT EVEN ASK FOR THAT YET JEEZ!

Because honestly, I only saw 1 post resembling my first example and the rest were all along the lines of that second example. And that is the exact reason why I am happy this thread is getting closed.


But none of it seems to be aimed at You, but is more an exclamation to the sky. I can understand when it is you who's paying how it must be difficult for you to separate the two, but you mustn't take criticism of BTP in general too personally. Of course, if someone flat out calls you a moron for using them, that's a separate issue, but merely expressing an opinion on the facts as you've presented them is unlikely to be intended as a personal attack, but might need a bit of effort in your part not to take it as such.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 21:02:44


Post by: M0ff3l


 Azreal13 wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Granted, but people's reaction to how much you have been charged for an element of your project is absolutely on topic. If that's been largely negative, it may suggest something to you.

You're absolutely correct that it's your money and your models, but if you're going to share this information in a public forum, you have no right to dictate how people react to it.

Frankly, I'm only surprised at the fact that it seems to have been a substantial delay between you sharing the info about the Havoc Launchers and the apparent backlash, I remember commenting something akin to "you could buy the whole Rhino for that" what feels like weeks ago, but it didn't appear to phase anyone else back then.


Thats just because Tenebres thread is slowing down, so people are now actively looking for reasons they can flame BTP for... And youre right, there was going to be negative feedback. But people on this forum could be bit more polite and reasonable. If the responses had been something along the lines of:

Hey M0ff3l, I believe paying 60$ for 2 havoc launchers is a rip off, you should send them an email asking for clearafecation of this and maybe ask them if you can get the rest of the kit they took the bits from.

instead of:

WOW I CANT BELIEVE BTP CHARGES THAT MUCH AND THEN WONT EVEN GIVE THE BITS BACK TO THE CLIENT WHO DIDNT EVEN ASK FOR THAT YET JEEZ!

Because honestly, I only saw 1 post resembling my first example and the rest were all along the lines of that second example. And that is the exact reason why I am happy this thread is getting closed.


But none of it seems to be aimed at You, but is more an exclamation to the sky. I can understand when it is you who's paying how it must be difficult for you to separate the two, but you mustn't take criticism of BTP in general too personally. Of course, if someone flat out calls you a moron for using them, that's a separate issue, but merely expressing an opinion on the facts as you've presented them is unlikely to be intended as a personal attack, but might need a bit of effort in your part not to take it as such.


I never said I was taking those things personal. The first sentence of my thread reads: Let me start this thread off by making it clear that as soon as this thread derails into another hatred filled bandwagon against BTP/MWG or anything like that I will immediately PM a mod and ask for closing of the thread. I am making this thread to (hopefully) showcase an average interaction with BTP.

Note, it doesnt say if people are being mean to me I will close the thread. No It says if people start using this thread as their tool to communicate their hatred towards BTP I will close it, as it is not the threads inteded use.

With that post you quoted, I merely meant that if people would just give cincere input like "hey ask BTP what they are doing with those 60$ and if you can get some bits back maybe" instead of immediately assuming that they would never return bits to customers or anything.

I will admit, this whole thing would have been easier if I actually had an entire project from start to finish to review. But it was a loss/loss situation for me, in Tenebres thread I was being called out for "lying" etc because I wasnt posting proof of my project with BTP. When I said I would post the entire project with a review of the entire process people said I would just paint them myself or whatever. So I made the thread. Now people blame me for posting it without results and all I can do is refer them back to the people hating on me in Tenebres thread. This alone has really shown me that I cant please people with this thread and it isnt being appreciated. So just close it then, because I wont be the gasoline you people pour onto your BTP hate fire.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 21:29:25


Post by: Azreal13


Excuse me?

Let's be clear, I've barely participated in this thread until just recently, and I don't recall posting in Tenebre's thread at all, I've certainly not kept up to date with it, so kindly don't be making any "you people" statements in my direction, you've no real idea what my opinions are, because I haven't really articulated any.

Regardless of your stated intentions, I have to say, as an impartial (or the closest you'll get to it) observer that there is a definite hint of you taking your ball home because the other boys aren't playing the way you want. That's not intended as an attack, merely an honest observation.

You say "hatred fuelled bandwagon" I hear "as soon as people start voicing opinions too far removed from my own."


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 21:36:36


Post by: winterdyne


 M0ff3l wrote:


I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Really not sure what's kicked off in this thread. I will say this on the point above; it is most efficient (I speak from experience) to do as little rework as possible. Typically this means a test photo from the first batch being done to go to the client so product can be compared to specification.

I'm not trying to rag on BTP, but honestly from a professional point of view so e of their working procedures baffle me.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 21:46:20


Post by: M0ff3l


 Azreal13 wrote:
Excuse me?

Let's be clear, I've barely participated in this thread until just recently, and I don't recall posting in Tenebre's thread at all, I've certainly not kept up to date with it, so kindly don't be making any "you people" statements in my direction, you've no real idea what my opinions are, because I haven't really articulated any.

Regardless of your stated intentions, I have to say, as an impartial (or the closest you'll get to it) observer that there is a definite hint of you taking your ball home because the other boys aren't playing the way you want. That's not intended as an attack, merely an honest observation.

You say "hatred fuelled bandwagon" I hear "as soon as people start voicing opinions too far removed from my own."


you can hear it as whatever you want. In the end I am the one to judge the criteria I set myself, I have already given you 2 examples of how people could have posted their opinions in a more civil/neutral fashion instead of immediately blaming BTP for it. Also I am supposed not to take things personal but when I say you people and you feel somehow included even though as you said it doesnt say anything about you, you get mad at me? What?!

EDIT: Also about your comparison to a kid taking his ball home. You forgot to mention that the kid warned the other boys that they should play along his rules or he would go home, thats the first thing he did. The other boys could then decide to play or not, but if they played and didnt follow the rules that kid is outa there.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 21:55:32


Post by: Azreal13


You said it in a reply to me, it isn't a leap to consider you were considering me as part of the group you were referencing.

But the point again remains, you can't make people express their opinion in a way you find acceptable, unless they're expressing it in a way that contravenes the forum rules, what you're essentially proposing is censorship, and if you want that sort of control I'm afraid you'll have to start your own blog or forum.

EDIT in response to edit.

Just because someone declares in advance they're going to do something, it doesn't make it any more acceptable/right/justified. Saying you'll close the thread essentially if people start disagreeing with you too strongly isn't really an amazing thing to be doing, and trying to get the thread closed because people have done exactly that remains not an amazing thing to be doing.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:01:19


Post by: Zywus


 Flippa wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:


I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


Do you honestly think repainting an army is more time efficient than painting 1 mini and sending you some HD pics?


If they can get enough projects right on the first try then yes I would believe so.


Flippa wrote:And if they don't then they have weeks or months worth of repaints?

I guess the reasoning (from BTB) is that if they paint the whole army and then there are some things the customer isn't really satisfied, they will often prefere to bite the bullet and take the army anyway instead of waiting or the entire army to get fixed. (as long as it's reasonable minor stuff).

If they show a test mini then the customer may give feedback that cause the painting to be more time consuming.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:04:51


Post by: M0ff3l


 Azreal13 wrote:
You said it in a reply to me, it isn't a leap to consider you were considering me as part of the group you were referencing.

But the point again remains, you can't make people express their opinion in a way you find acceptable, unless they're expressing it in a way that contravenes the forum rules, what you're essentially proposing is censorship, and if you want that sort of control I'm afraid you'll have to start your own blog or forum.

EDIT in response to edit.

Just because someone declares in advance they're going to do something, it doesn't make it any more acceptable/right/justified. Saying you'll close the thread essentially if people start disagreeing with you too strongly isn't really an amazing thing to be doing, and trying to get the thread closed because people have done exactly that remains not an amazing thing to be doing.


Its not about disagreeing with me, this whole thread is not even an opinion, did you even read my opening post? I just didnt want it to turn into another thread where people disect every bit of info they can get on BTP to justify their reason for disliking the company. If people had that additude comming into this thread why would they post? It is about reviewing the entire process and seeing what the results are like. As I have told you twice now, if people had kept their concerns with the process so far civil as for example: "Hey 60$ for 2 havoc launchers, thats way too expensive! you should mail them and ask what exactly the 60$ entails and if you can get money/bits back if they are leftover". I would have gladly emailed them and documented their response. But thats not how most of the posts go. So the topic is getting closed.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:06:05


Post by: ClockworkChaos


You are free to make your own choices, but it seems a bit odd to request this to be closed. I mean if you start something you should see it to the end as that is just a trait of integrity but it is your thread to do with what you want.

Also just to clarify cause misinformation drives me insane- Ten's thread started off as a neutral review which many pointed out as being extremely forgiving and neutral. It only got negative after people realized the actual quality of the work. It did not start negative though, just wanted to clarify that.

 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Excuse me?

Let's be clear, I've barely participated in this thread until just recently, and I don't recall posting in Tenebre's thread at all, I've certainly not kept up to date with it, so kindly don't be making any "you people" statements in my direction, you've no real idea what my opinions are, because I haven't really articulated any.

Regardless of your stated intentions, I have to say, as an impartial (or the closest you'll get to it) observer that there is a definite hint of you taking your ball home because the other boys aren't playing the way you want. That's not intended as an attack, merely an honest observation.

You say "hatred fuelled bandwagon" I hear "as soon as people start voicing opinions too far removed from my own."


you can hear it as whatever you want. In the end I am the one to judge the criteria I set myself, I have already given you 2 examples of how people could have posted their opinions in a more civil/neutral fashion instead of immediately blaming BTP for it. Also I am supposed not to take things personal but when I say you people and you feel somehow included even though as you said it doesnt say anything about you, you get mad at me? What?!

EDIT: Also about your comparison to a kid taking his ball home. You forgot to mention that the kid warned the other boys that they should play along his rules or he would go home, thats the first thing he did. The other boys could then decide to play or not, but if they played and didnt follow the rules that kid is outa there.


What you say is true but it just means you are the strict judge, jury and executioner of this thread. I don't really see that as fair as once a thread is started only the mods should be able to close it when they see fit but maybe that is just me. I honestly don't know.

Finally that ball quote doesn't make much sense to me. If the kid lays out rules and shoos everyone away in the future no one is going to want to play with him and he is going to end up all alone. That seems like a sad/depressing analogy.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:12:35


Post by: M0ff3l


ClockworkChaos wrote:
You are free to make your own choices, but it seems a bit odd to request this to be closed. I mean if you start something you should see it to the end as that is just a trait of integrity but it is your thread to do with what you want.

Also just to clarify cause misinformation drives me insane- Ten's thread started off as a neutral review which many pointed out as being extremely forgiving and neutral. It only got negative after people realized the actual quality of the work. It did not start negative though, just wanted to clarify that.

 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Excuse me?

Let's be clear, I've barely participated in this thread until just recently, and I don't recall posting in Tenebre's thread at all, I've certainly not kept up to date with it, so kindly don't be making any "you people" statements in my direction, you've no real idea what my opinions are, because I haven't really articulated any.

Regardless of your stated intentions, I have to say, as an impartial (or the closest you'll get to it) observer that there is a definite hint of you taking your ball home because the other boys aren't playing the way you want. That's not intended as an attack, merely an honest observation.

You say "hatred fuelled bandwagon" I hear "as soon as people start voicing opinions too far removed from my own."


you can hear it as whatever you want. In the end I am the one to judge the criteria I set myself, I have already given you 2 examples of how people could have posted their opinions in a more civil/neutral fashion instead of immediately blaming BTP for it. Also I am supposed not to take things personal but when I say you people and you feel somehow included even though as you said it doesnt say anything about you, you get mad at me? What?!

EDIT: Also about your comparison to a kid taking his ball home. You forgot to mention that the kid warned the other boys that they should play along his rules or he would go home, thats the first thing he did. The other boys could then decide to play or not, but if they played and didnt follow the rules that kid is outa there.


What you say is true but it just means you are the strict judge, jury and executioner of this thread. I don't really see that as fair as once a thread is started only the mods should be able to close it when they see fit but maybe that is just me. I honestly don't know.

Finally that ball quote doesn't make much sense to me. If the kid lays out rules and shoos everyone away in the future no one is going to want to play with him and he is going to end up all alone. That seems like a sad/depressing analogy.


Misinformation? I beg to differ, this is the very first sentence in Tenebres thread: Here is a video review of my chaos dwarf army and my experience with Blue Table Painting. Please watch and heed as a warning as well.

Heed as a warning, that doesnt sound neutral to me.

Also how is it unfair for me to want a civil and fairly neutral discussion about BTP until we can actually see their work and judge then how the project went?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:16:05


Post by: Azreal13


 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
You said it in a reply to me, it isn't a leap to consider you were considering me as part of the group you were referencing.

But the point again remains, you can't make people express their opinion in a way you find acceptable, unless they're expressing it in a way that contravenes the forum rules, what you're essentially proposing is censorship, and if you want that sort of control I'm afraid you'll have to start your own blog or forum.

EDIT in response to edit.

Just because someone declares in advance they're going to do something, it doesn't make it any more acceptable/right/justified. Saying you'll close the thread essentially if people start disagreeing with you too strongly isn't really an amazing thing to be doing, and trying to get the thread closed because people have done exactly that remains not an amazing thing to be doing.


Its not about disagreeing with me, this whole thread is not even an opinion, did you even read my opening post? I just didnt want it to turn into another thread where people disect every bit of info they can get on BTP to justify their reason for disliking the company. If people had that additude comming into this thread why would they post? It is about reviewing the entire process and seeing what the results are like. As I have told you twice now, if people had kept their concerns with the process so far civil as for example: "Hey 60$ for 2 havoc launchers, thats way too expensive! you should mail them and ask what exactly the 60$ entails and if you can get money/bits back if they are leftover". I would have gladly emailed them and documented their response. But thats not how most of the posts go. So the topic is getting closed.


Right, so people have expressed their skepticism about the cost of the Havocs, but because they haven't done so in a manner you arbitrarily decided was the correct one, you haven't emailed BTP in order to document the response?

Not seeing that one, sorry, if the point is valid (and, yes, in the case of this charge, I personally find people's reactions totally understandable) then why is it important how they express it to you? Or are you just writing off (potentially) valid criticism and dismissing it as "hating" (ugh, I hate that word) as so often happens with GW advocates in the more controversial GW debates?

If your intention was to genuinely try and document a typical BTP experience (something which likely failed as soon as you made the thread, but meh) then your most important job is to mitigate the extremity of the criticism and try and act as a filter for that, not pack up and go home as soon as things got heated. You had an opportunity to contact BTP and get a rationale as to the cost of an elementary alteration to your models, but have instead opted to throw your hands up and walk away.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:30:31


Post by: Alpharius


Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:31:30


Post by: M0ff3l


 Azreal13 wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
You said it in a reply to me, it isn't a leap to consider you were considering me as part of the group you were referencing.

But the point again remains, you can't make people express their opinion in a way you find acceptable, unless they're expressing it in a way that contravenes the forum rules, what you're essentially proposing is censorship, and if you want that sort of control I'm afraid you'll have to start your own blog or forum.

EDIT in response to edit.

Just because someone declares in advance they're going to do something, it doesn't make it any more acceptable/right/justified. Saying you'll close the thread essentially if people start disagreeing with you too strongly isn't really an amazing thing to be doing, and trying to get the thread closed because people have done exactly that remains not an amazing thing to be doing.


Its not about disagreeing with me, this whole thread is not even an opinion, did you even read my opening post? I just didnt want it to turn into another thread where people disect every bit of info they can get on BTP to justify their reason for disliking the company. If people had that additude comming into this thread why would they post? It is about reviewing the entire process and seeing what the results are like. As I have told you twice now, if people had kept their concerns with the process so far civil as for example: "Hey 60$ for 2 havoc launchers, thats way too expensive! you should mail them and ask what exactly the 60$ entails and if you can get money/bits back if they are leftover". I would have gladly emailed them and documented their response. But thats not how most of the posts go. So the topic is getting closed.


Right, so people have expressed their skepticism about the cost of the Havocs, but because they haven't done so in a manner you arbitrarily decided was the correct one, you haven't emailed BTP in order to document the response?

Not seeing that one, sorry, if the point is valid (and, yes, in the case of this charge, I personally find people's reactions totally understandable) then why is it important how they express it to you? Or are you just writing off (potentially) valid criticism and dismissing it as "hating" (ugh, I hate that word) as so often happens with GW advocates in the more controversial GW debates?

If your intention was to genuinely try and document a typical BTP experience (something which likely failed as soon as you made the thread, but meh) then your most important job is to mitigate the extremity of the criticism and try and act as a filter for that, not pack up and go home as soon as things got heated. You had an opportunity to contact BTP and get a rationale as to the cost of an elementary alteration to your models, but have instead opted to throw your hands up and walk away.


Yes my intention was to document a typical BTP interaction, AND YES AS I HAVE SAID, it would have been better if I had posted this thread AFTER I received the army, BUT LIKE I SAID people in Tenebres thread were pushing me to make it calling me liar or accusing me of being a BTP employee whiteknighting the company. So yeah you can blame me for having good intentions and not executing them well, or you can blame the posters who insulted me and made me feel pushed into opening the thread. And how is it my job to mitigaste criticism? This thread is not an OPINION how can people critisize it or me? This thread serves the sole purpose of showing people who are potential customers or are just curious about the interactions between client and BTP. I POSTED IT IN P&M BLOGS, IT WAS MOVED TO DISCUSSIONS BY A MOD. And another thing, since im not updating this thread anymore how the hell would you know if i didnt already contact BTP about the havocs? Since im taking my ball home, you wont know if I did and what BTPs response was. You can argue all you want about how my abritrary rules are not well defined and bla bla bla, point is, the thread is getting closed and if it doesnt I wont update it anymore. I tried to give some insight into how a BTP transaction worked, people used it to find more reasons to hate BTP over whatever if thats what they are getting out of it then fine but I wont be part of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:35:34


Post by: BrookM


So, this was all for nothing then? Unsubscribed.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:46:30


Post by: ImAGeek


Well that was a roller coaster from start to finish...

It does seem a bit like throwing your toys out of the pram to not update it now though. You started it, you may as well see it through. From what I read no one overly broke the 'rules' you set anyway, they were just offering opinions that happened to be counter to your own, in terms of things like the havoc launchers etc. there's a reason a lot of the replies to that part were negative, and that's because it's a pretty dick move to charge you for a whole rhino kit for one part.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:52:14


Post by: TinBane


M0ff3l - If you are concerned about being anti-BTP ammo, then the ammo is already in play. You may as well update with your experience from here on out.

I think the problem is probably that the vocal minority are voicing their feelings. For posterity, and for the silent watchers of the thread, it's probably worth updating (in my opinion).

I'd be interested in your experience at the end. One of Ten's criticisms was that he didn't receive photos as he requested, and that his amendments were no carried out.

So I'd be interested in your candid appraisal of how that section works out, because I think that was one of the key areas they failed with Ten's commission.

Are you absolutely resolved, not to update this thread? Honestly, I think if you get stuff sorted with the rhino things, then surely the worst of it will be already out in the open.

Also, I'd like to point out to the critics. He was pretty honest in his appraisal of the value of the $60 conversion fee and freehand painting fee.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 22:55:31


Post by: ImAGeek


Oh yeah I've just read that, even you weren't happy with the price of the conversion? So people were agreeing with your opinion about that, but they still broke your rules...?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 23:01:07


Post by: ClockworkChaos


I suppose me and you are using neutral in different ways. I see it was during the review he looked at all the angles, and at the end gave a warning based on a neutral/fair/level-headed choice. You are using neutral more in the sense of an emotionless opinion less post. Both are correct just different views on the same thing.

You can have a neutral discussion but people are going to disagree on points and bring up points of concern they feel are important (such as costs). I concede your point that some have handled that very very badly but the mods seem to have reeled them in for the most part. The mods are doing a good job on this thread (thanks guys!) so I dont see the reason why it needs to be closed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


So your not going to update anything at all? Not even the results or the times that they give you more info?

I hope you realize that this lack of updates just gives reason to everyone who doubts BTP and gives an even more negative light for newcomers who see this. It makes it seem like someone who is using BTP had a concern arise really early in the process and then stopped posting anything about it. I suppose I would like to ask you from a purly objective standpoint (or as objective as you can make it), does that seem like what you have done has helped your point/actually portray an interaction with BTP or does this not make it look like all interactions with them are of poor quality? Just something to consider.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 23:13:01


Post by: M0ff3l


ClockworkChaos wrote:
I suppose me and you are using neutral in different ways. I see it was during the review he looked at all the angles, and at the end gave a warning based on a neutral/fair/level-headed choice. You are using neutral more in the sense of an emotionless opinion less post. Both are correct just different views on the same thing.

You can have a neutral discussion but people are going to disagree on points and bring up points of concern they feel are important (such as costs). I concede your point that some have handled that very very badly but the mods seem to have reeled them in for the most part. The mods are doing a good job on this thread (thanks guys!) so I dont see the reason why it needs to be closed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


So your not going to update anything at all? Not even the results or the times that they give you more info?

I hope you realize that this lack of updates just gives reason to everyone who doubts BTP and gives an even more negative light for newcomers who see this. It makes it seem like someone who is using BTP had a concern arise really early in the process and then stopped posting anything about it. I suppose I would like to ask you from a purly objective standpoint (or as objective as you can make it), does that seem like what you have done has helped your point/actually portray an interaction with BTP or does this not make it look like all interactions with them are of poor quality? Just something to consider.


A neutral review, to me atleast, means: "form your own opinion, here is the info I have on the subject". Starting your review with take this as a warning comes with a pre-formed opinion.
Also I cant see how anyone would think I have concerns with BTP or any interaction with them, as that is not the reason I am closing this thread. I just feel like people are not using this thread for the purpose I intended for it. Oh and telling me that I am wasting my money didnt help either. And no I wont post any results or any more interaction, I wont even tell anyone if they give me a rhino kit or a refund of some sort. Im kinda done with DakkaDakka and its community. Most are really nice, but some people I just cant stand anymore.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 23:31:34


Post by: ImAGeek


In terms of the other thread, just think about how much Tenebre would have paid, and what the results were. He's going to have a pre-formed opinion, and fair enough! It's his money, and his army.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/27 23:45:40


Post by: Riquende


Shame this couldn't last, it was shaping up to be interesting. Kinda suspicious the plug just getting pulled like that. Maybe Shawn's holiday to the Netherlands has come to an end.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 00:14:48


Post by: TinBane


 Riquende wrote:
Shame this couldn't last, it was shaping up to be interesting. Kinda suspicious the plug just getting pulled like that. Maybe Shawn's holiday to the Netherlands has come to an end.


You think Shawn posted this entire thing, including mentioning the $60 price tag for "conversion" and freehand, and his dissatisfaction with it?

Seems like he's pulling the plug, because he's sick of people jumping to conclusions. I can kind of see his point: he got called a shill and a liar because he was going to wait, then called a shill and a liar because he posted an in progress comission, and now he's a fraud because you think he is Shawn.

I mean, I'm defending him, so I'm Shawn too?
Skink (from the other thread) was likely Shawn as well? I mean he didn't jump on the band-wagon with both feet, right?

If Shawn was going to bother posting something like this, it wouldn't have anything like the conversion fee. He would have quoted a couple of bucks for the havoc launcher.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 00:19:27


Post by: Peregrine


 M0ff3l wrote:
I just feel like people are not using this thread for the purpose I intended for it.


But your purpose was not legitimate. You might have intended for this to be a "why BTP is awesome" thread, but that's not a very good start for an open and honest discussion. If you genuinely want a neutral review and not a BTP propaganda thread then that includes allowing criticism of BTP's actions in relation to your commission. But it seems like your stated desire for neutrality was less about an honest attempt to document the process from a neutral starting point and more about using "neutral" as a cover for a biased review.

Oh and telling me that I am wasting my money didnt help either.


But you were indisputably wasting your money. If BTP says "we keep extra parts unless you ask for them" and you don't ask for them then you're just throwing away money. It might be a small enough amount of money that you don't care about wasting it, but you're still wasting it.

Im kinda done with DakkaDakka and its community.


So because people dared to criticize a painting service (for very good reasons) and didn't follow your "rules" for how they're "allowed" to talk about BTP you're taking your ball and going home? I'm not going to say that the people accusing you of being a BTP employee are indisputably right, but you sure aren't making a good case for your third-party neutrality.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 00:55:43


Post by: Lockark


 Lockark wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:
I have asked a mod to close the thread. This post was made to showcase how an average interaction works with BTP. As the very first sentence states I didnt want it turning into another hate bandwagon. Which probably half of you didnt read as most of you only now start raging at the 60$ conversion even though that was in the opening post from the start... Also I cant believe how unthankfull you people are, I make this thread to give an honest review from start to finish and you people criticize me for having BTP make my army etc. Its my money, they are my models and its my choice. So If there is anything you want to ask me related to how working with BTP was so far or any other questions about the general process with BTP, ask me now or PM me.


If the $60 conversion involved buying a whole new rhino to get the parts, ask for them to send the rest of the rhino on sprue back to you with the army. You could easily resell the rest of the kit at like $20 to someone locally to you.

I'm outraged at the fact your just letting them pocket a whole rhino off of you.


So mof. You ignored this post. Are you planning on letting blue table pocket the two rhinos they made you pay for, or are you going to ask for them?


 Peregrine wrote:

Im kinda done with DakkaDakka and its community.


So because people dared to criticize a painting service (for very good reasons) and didn't follow your "rules" for how they're "allowed" to talk about BTP you're taking your ball and going home? I'm not going to say that the people accusing you of being a BTP employee are indisputably right, but you sure aren't making a good case for your third-party neutrality.


If I'm out of line, then I apologize. But I think mof is suffering from "escalation of commitment". He likes BTP, and came across as insulted at ten's thread. He's now spent his own money to prove ten wrong, and we have pointed out alot of our basic criticism's are applying to this project. No test modles, questionable ethics in regards to their bits, ect.

To me if feels like now that he realizes he can't justified thows things he now wants to put his fingers in his ears and ignore us.

Mof, I do hope you get a army your happy with out of this. Because to me you are basicly playing "painting roulette", because the lack of test modles means hope your happy with the color pallet you get. plus It will be impossible to see any imperfections before approving the project due to their shotgun "here is everything finished" approach.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 01:53:54


Post by: Stormwall


 M0ff3l wrote:



 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


"Daddy doesn't agree so I will go to Mom," style argument. I think the mods are a hard working team and usually work together...

So anyways, are you going to write BTP about the two rhinos worth of bits and update us... or are you basically not concerned about it/throwing your hands up in the air about the whole thread? I feel like I am in total agreement with Lock's last post.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 02:42:44


Post by: Sidstyler


TinBane wrote:
You think Shawn posted this entire thing, including mentioning the $60 price tag for "conversion" and freehand, and his dissatisfaction with it?

Seems like he's pulling the plug, because he's sick of people jumping to conclusions. I can kind of see his point: he got called a shill and a liar because he was going to wait, then called a shill and a liar because he posted an in progress comission, and now he's a fraud because you think he is Shawn.

I mean, I'm defending him, so I'm Shawn too?
Skink (from the other thread) was likely Shawn as well? I mean he didn't jump on the band-wagon with both feet, right?


I'M SHAWNACUS!

But yeah, I don't know about anyone else but I was genuinely interested in seeing how this turned out. Even though I'm admittedly not going to be changing my opinion of BTP despite the outcome.

If I ever do use a commission painting service I would at the very least expect a test model or some WIP shots along the way, kinda sucks that you won't even know if they followed your basic instructions and painted them in the desired color scheme until the entire product is finished and its too late to change. As for the rhinos, isn't that kind of ridiculous? I mean if all you needed was the havoc launcher bits you still wouldn't need to buy an entire rhino kit to get them, you can buy the accessory sprue from GW's website for $15. Which is still a little high in my opinion but still better than buying the full kit, I would think. It just sounds like they took the most expensive option to get those parts, and probably plan on building and painting those rhinos up to sell later at a nice profit.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 04:03:55


Post by: zlayer77


TinBane wrote:
 Riquende wrote:
Shame this couldn't last, it was shaping up to be interesting. Kinda suspicious the plug just getting pulled like that. Maybe Shawn's holiday to the Netherlands has come to an end.


You think Shawn posted this entire thing, including mentioning the $60 price tag for "conversion" and freehand, and his dissatisfaction with it?

Seems like he's pulling the plug, because he's sick of people jumping to conclusions. I can kind of see his point: he got called a shill and a liar because he was going to wait, then called a shill and a liar because he posted an in progress comission, and now he's a fraud because you think he is Shawn.

I mean, I'm defending him, so I'm Shawn too?
Skink (from the other thread) was likely Shawn as well? I mean he didn't jump on the band-wagon with both feet, right?

If Shawn was going to bother posting something like this, it wouldn't have anything like the conversion fee. He would have quoted a couple of bucks for the havoc launcher.


I feel it is strange that "the plugg has been pulled" I mean what did the OP expect, This is not BTPs first scandal. And not the first customer they screwed over.. Threads about the poor quality off BTP have been around for years now... It is Just that "THIS TIME" the Community has just hade enough off it and are speaking out louder then ever....hehe.. And the OP clearly wants no negative feedback from this thread, but then he post things about the priceing etc that people find unacceptable, and the community speaks out.. And he pulls the plugg. If he wanted it to be an impartial review of their service, you can't pull the plugg, when negative stuff are found out and brought into the light.... You have to take the good with the bad... But the OP just wanted the GOOD to come out.. And stoped making uppdates when the desired effect dident happen... "STRANGE" is what i call that

Now the responses were not what he expected but seriously charging that kind of Chash and keeping stuff etc.. It just showed once again the true face of BTP...


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 04:13:52


Post by: Toofast


OPs thread sounds like MWG review request. "We know there's a ton of valid, negative things to say about BTP but we only want to hear good things." Then pull the plug when you get more bad than good.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 04:43:43


Post by: Casey's Law


Came here for a review of BTP, got nothing. Thanks for wasting everyone's time.
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.
Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open.
Hahaha! Yeh that's how it works, 'play' them against each other and see how long your stay on Dakka is.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 05:12:57


Post by: TinBane


 zlayer77 wrote:

You have to take the good with the bad... But the OP just wanted the GOOD to come out.. And stoped making uppdates when the desired effect dident happen... "STRANGE" is what i call that

Now the responses were not what he expected but seriously charging that kind of Chash and keeping stuff etc.. It just showed once again the true face of BTP...


How sure are you?
Because the way I read the OP, he was more cautiously interested, rather than overly supporting of BTP.
I mean, he's downright critical himself, in the $60 conversion and freehand painting charges. You wouldn't even mention those kind of costs, if it was a promotional peice. Or alternatively, you'd pay $60 and get them to actually convert something awesome. Not get a few bits and magentise them on/stick them on.

Yeah, it does come across as a bit immature to blow the entire thing off because people on the internet are saying bad things.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 06:15:18


Post by: ClockworkChaos


 M0ff3l wrote:
ClockworkChaos wrote:
I suppose me and you are using neutral in different ways. I see it was during the review he looked at all the angles, and at the end gave a warning based on a neutral/fair/level-headed choice. You are using neutral more in the sense of an emotionless opinion less post. Both are correct just different views on the same thing.

You can have a neutral discussion but people are going to disagree on points and bring up points of concern they feel are important (such as costs). I concede your point that some have handled that very very badly but the mods seem to have reeled them in for the most part. The mods are doing a good job on this thread (thanks guys!) so I dont see the reason why it needs to be closed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


So your not going to update anything at all? Not even the results or the times that they give you more info?

I hope you realize that this lack of updates just gives reason to everyone who doubts BTP and gives an even more negative light for newcomers who see this. It makes it seem like someone who is using BTP had a concern arise really early in the process and then stopped posting anything about it. I suppose I would like to ask you from a purly objective standpoint (or as objective as you can make it), does that seem like what you have done has helped your point/actually portray an interaction with BTP or does this not make it look like all interactions with them are of poor quality? Just something to consider.


A neutral review, to me atleast, means: "form your own opinion, here is the info I have on the subject". Starting your review with take this as a warning comes with a pre-formed opinion.
Also I cant see how anyone would think I have concerns with BTP or any interaction with them, as that is not the reason I am closing this thread. I just feel like people are not using this thread for the purpose I intended for it. Oh and telling me that I am wasting my money didnt help either. And no I wont post any results or any more interaction, I wont even tell anyone if they give me a rhino kit or a refund of some sort. Im kinda done with DakkaDakka and its community. Most are really nice, but some people I just cant stand anymore.



Ok so we seem to take what we see as neutral as different. That is fair enough.

The problem is with closing it now is that new people will read the thread and see two things:
1) BTW doesn't do WIP shots or at least you didn't ask for them so GG on getting an idea of whats going on (aka unprofessional)
2) They overcharge for modifications (since you said you will not update if they will fix this, this is the only message we can take away)

By not clarifying your points you have both left a negative image of BTP and (reading the other comments) angered those who wanted you to do this in the first place.

I am saying this as someone who just lurked the thread and did not comment until you said you were stopping info. I do not care per say why you opened this thread (to be a white knight, for your own interest, or to help others ect), I just think you are closing it at a bad time for bad reasons. It just does not seem like a good idea.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 09:16:27


Post by: motyak


Alpharius has the right of it, sorry for the late reply Moff


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 11:13:32


Post by: Kubik


Hey M0ff3l, i was one of the silent lurkers of this thread and I'm really sorry you decided to leave it. I saw how you got called on tenbres thread and you showed,you have the balls to take up the challenge. For that alone you have my respect. I'm not going to express my opinion on the BTP issue because it's not relevant. I just hope you'll finish this and show us the results, because I'm really interested how it ends.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 11:24:55


Post by: frozenwastes


I was very interested in seeing the final results and think it's sad when people say they will do something and don't follow through.

I hope he reconsiders.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 13:41:01


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


@M0ff3l
Just ignore all discussion and comments here - don't read the comments, and don't respond.

If its a choice between the OP ignoring everybody and just posting project updates as and when he gets them; or rage quitting the thread and refusing to post further updates in response to the vitriol hes getting from a couple of people, I'd prefer the former.

I'd like to see the BTP process play out from start to finish.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 14:35:22


Post by: zlayer77


 frozenwastes wrote:
I was very interested in seeing the final results and think it's sad when people say they will do something and don't follow through.

I hope he reconsiders.


I think that the OP might have come the realisation that if he compleated this and showed the miniatures, they would get compared to other companies whos work is now on display (like frontline gaming for exmaple), and the end result would not bee in BTPs favor at all haha.. Better to stop posting now, before the end product gets totaly trashed by the comunity..

Facts at this point are that BTP just dont have the skills to pull off more then table top quality on the stuff.. And with all the, Inks and special paints that are now readily available to people, everyone can pull off that level of painting themselves at home without spending thousands of dollars having BTP do the same hehe

So people who are looking for someone ells to paint their stuff, falls into 2 mayor categories..

1: They dont have the time to paint it themselves, and then you want something cheap, and BTP is not cheap for the level of painting they do..
2: They want stuff painted better then they themselves can do, and then BTP do not have the skill to do that..

So it is clear that BTP is not a viable option for anyone hahah it is kinda sad..


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 15:20:17


Post by: TheAuldGrump


I actually do not think that this thread should be closed until the OP actually gets his army back from BTP - he may be arguing that the point was to demonstrate a typical interaction with BTP - but the reality is that getting your painted army is also part of that interaction.

The OP may be annoyed that people are pointing out that the interaction that he is highlighting is rather poor - but even so, it is not yet the entirety of the interaction.

It is possible that the rest of that interaction will be 'And the OP got his Chaos Space Marines, and lived happily ever after'.

It is also possible that the rest of the interaction will be 'And the OP got his Chaos Space Marines, and was so disappointed that he rage quit the interwebs forever'.

Either way, the interaction with BTP is not over.

My suspicion is that the OP will get his models, and will be happy enough with them, but that a lot of folks (including me) will comment that they would not have been happy with that paint job.


*EDIT* I will admit that I know folks that chose Nurgle for their armies just because it is really hard to screw up a Nurgle paint job.... On the other hand, I really enjoyed converting and painting Nurgle vehicles... the danged things are just fun to do.

The Auld Grump


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 15:39:06


Post by: xxvaderxx


Here is a novel idea, how about we wait to bash on btp until the project is actually either done or late?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 16:05:01


Post by: TheAuldGrump


xxvaderxx wrote:
Here is a novel idea, how about we wait to bash on btp until the project is actually either done or late?
How about noticing that people are, for the most part, commenting on the portion of the interaction that has already happened, since we are talking about novelty? Hmmm?

People are commenting on BTP charging for a full kit, when they only use a small portion of the kit.

People are commenting that the amount of information that BTP is providing is less than ideal.

People are commenting that the amount of money charged for freehand painting seems excessive.

And people are commenting that the OP wants to pull the plug because posters are pointing these problems out.

But the comments are, again, for the most part, based on the portions of the interaction that have already taken place - and that folks do have a reason to remark upon.

On the other hand, folks commenting on the OP being a coward for wanting to close the thread were way, way over the top. He stopped enjoying the thread - I may disagree with his reasons, but not wanting continue in a thread because he is not having fun... is his choice.

Following with people bickering on whether the comments were over the top... was adding annoyance to annoyance.

The Auld Grump


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 16:26:27


Post by: Davylove21


This was never going to end well and, to be honest, this was never really going to be neutral either. Not when OP has dropped almost $800 on the army, with $120 being on havoc launchers and 30 minutes worth of freehand. It's come off to me since the beginning as a bit of a BTP defense thread at a time when hatred for BTP is at fever pitch here.

Letting it die now might be best for this thread, although I've enjoyed reading much of the back and forth so far.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 16:40:40


Post by: timetowaste85


 Davylove21 wrote:
This was never going to end well and, to be honest, this was never really going to be neutral either. Not when OP has dropped almost $800 on the army, with $120 being on havoc launchers and 30 minutes worth of freehand. It's come off to me since the beginning as a bit of a BTP defense thread at a time when hatred for BTP is at fever pitch here.

Letting it die now might be best for this thread, although I've enjoyed reading much of the back and forth so far.


Since we sit want inaccurate info, I believe it was $60 total for the two launchers. Not each. It's already bad, but doesn't need to be made worse. I feel kinda bad, since I'm the one who dredged up the launcher overcharge info, but mostly I wanted the OP to realize he was being taken advantage of. But hey, based on the money spent, he's an adult and can decide what's worth it to him.

OP, Dakka is just about the best forum for Warhammer you're going to find. But if you expect everyone to agree with your viewpoint all the time, the Internet is probably not the best place for you. The guys on here have actually been REALLY a good, all things considered. Try going to 4chan, if you wanna see how bad it could have been. Or go to Warseer if you want to see "BTP?! Kill the thread so nothig hurtful gets said like 'I don't like that'!!" DAKKa is a good middle ground of discussion. If you want free reign with no rules, hit 4chan. If you want every opinion squashed that ever entered your brain, you're looking for Warseer. Put it in D&D terms: do you want chaotic neutral (with chance of baning), lawful good, or chaotic evil


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 16:42:35


Post by: Reality-Torrent


I agree, the thread could never be neutral when it was created in defence of BTP against rising anger twards their business policys.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 16:50:09


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Reality-Torrent wrote:
I agree, the thread could never be neutral when it was created in defence of BTP against rising anger twards their business policys.


Perhaps, but explaining the process and his interactions with BTP in detail updating us as and when he received updates from BTP, would have allowed everyone to consider the "facts" and come to their own conclusions, the OP's bias notwithstanding.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 16:52:16


Post by: xxvaderxx


 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Davylove21 wrote:
This was never going to end well and, to be honest, this was never really going to be neutral either. Not when OP has dropped almost $800 on the army, with $120 being on havoc launchers and 30 minutes worth of freehand. It's come off to me since the beginning as a bit of a BTP defense thread at a time when hatred for BTP is at fever pitch here.

Letting it die now might be best for this thread, although I've enjoyed reading much of the back and forth so far.


Since we sit want inaccurate info, I believe it was $60 total for the two launchers. Not each. It's already bad, but doesn't need to be made worse. I feel kinda bad, since I'm the one who dredged up the launcher overcharge info, but mostly I wanted the OP to realize he was being taken advantage of. But hey, based on the money spent, he's an adult and can decide what's worth it to him.

OP, Dakka is just about the best forum for Warhammer you're going to find. But if you expect everyone to agree with your viewpoint all the time, the Internet is probably not the best place for you. The guys on here have actually been REALLY a good, all things considered. Try going to 4chan, if you wanna see how bad it could have been. Or go to Warseer if you want to see "BTP?! Kill the thread so nothig hurtful gets said like 'I don't like that'!!" DAKKa is a good middle ground of discussion. If you want free reign with no rules, hit 4chan. If you want every opinion squashed that ever entered your brain, you're looking for Warseer. Put it in D&D terms: do you want chaotic neutral (with chance of baning), lawful good, or chaotic evil


The way i understand their service, the conversion budget you set it yourself and they might use it all or not, strictly speaking i would never give them any conversion budget except what they specifically state they need for a particular specific conversion. At the end of the day they are paint oriented contractors, you dont just hand money to a contractor and say "do something with it", it boggles my mind how can anyone think that could possible end up well for you, it seem to be one of those "first world situations" like the one the guy sen in a 1k pluss titan for some terrain he had no specifics about and had never seen in person. I mean sure he got ripped of but honestly, thats like walking ijnto a slum with 3 thousand dollars shoes and a rolex and expect not to get mugged..


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 19:11:37


Post by: rigeld2


It wasn't "some terrain". It was Terrain valued at a certain dollar amount.

And yes, I'd expect to deal with any business for any amount of money and receive professional service - not the bare minimum to make me go away.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 19:22:34


Post by: flabluker


man i hope the op gets what he was looking for as far as results from there company but if the point was too be neutral review i think between this thread and tenebre thread most of us here have all the btp facts we need too form a opinion on there service or at least know what too expect from them when commissioning them for work .thanks again op was interesting i would love too see the end results but kinda think i have a good idea of what you will end up with but hope they go the extra mile for ya


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/28 19:46:12


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'd like to see the BTP process play out from start to finish.


Same. I saw this hop up the first page and though that there had been an update.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 01:23:00


Post by: M0ff3l


My email asking about the bits:
Hey Name,

Thanks for keeping me updated! Im sure its a very busy time of year for you guys, so I understand any delay there might be!

I was having a gander at your terms of service and this part caught my eye:
Bitz
Extra parts from kits that we buy on behalf of a client are not returned except on request. This allows us to keep the cost of conversions down– clients that leave their bitz with us benefit other clients and vice versa. The request has to be made in the Assembly portion of your Instructions sheet.

The reason it caught my eye is, when I asked Name about wanting to swap my hunter killer missiles for havoc launchers he quoted me for a 60$ conversion budget. Now I understand that conversions take time and bits also dont come free. But this conversion is a very minor one. So here is my question, what exactly did I buy with that 60$? And if you had to buy a new Rhino for the bit could I receive the rest of the kit? Im a little confused by this, so maybe I have it all wrong.

Thanks for everything so far, also a great Thanksgiving to you and everyone at BTP!

-Name


Their reply:
Hi, Name!

Name, our quotes guy (who did your pricing), must have thought we needed to buy kit(s) to get those Havoc Launchers.
We currently had them in stock on our bits wall here at the studio, however, so there wasn't really any extra cost involved.
I've gone ahead and removed that $60 from your project sheet (see attached). Thanks for pointing that out!

Happy holidays!
~Name


Also to be clear, I will only post this type of update from now on. I will not respond to any posts. If you want to ask me something about the project or something similar, please do so via pm.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 01:31:20


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Cheers Moff.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 01:55:58


Post by: Azreal13


Ok, so a number of possibilities jump out, I'm not intending to suggest one as more likely than another, merely sharing my thoughts.

1. It was a genuine mistake, which, nevertheless, had the query not been raised, would have stiffed a customer out of $60. These things can happen, but it is slightly concerning that an established company in any sphere wouldn't have checks and balances in place to catch these things.

2. They try this a lot, and probably get away with it often enough to be worthwhile.

3. They're monitoring this thread, were expecting the contact and were prepared to respond.

Like I say, not suggesting one over another, just spitballing.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 02:28:56


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, so a number of possibilities jump out, I'm not intending to suggest one as more likely than another, merely sharing my thoughts.
2. They try this a lot, and probably get away with it often enough to be worthwhile.


Dude it is right there on their TOS that they do this.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 02:58:54


Post by: Peregrine


Yeah, they say explicitly that they will buy stuff and keep the remaining parts unless you remember to ask for them. They took back the charge in this case, but I have no doubt that if the OP hadn't said anything they would have happily kept the $60 charge and profited from the free Rhino kits.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 03:01:01


Post by: Azreal13


xxvaderxx wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, so a number of possibilities jump out, I'm not intending to suggest one as more likely than another, merely sharing my thoughts.
2. They try this a lot, and probably get away with it often enough to be worthwhile.


Dude it is right there on their TOS that they do this.


I'm aware, I meant that they had no need to buy the Rhino, but billed for it anyway, rather than legitimately needed to purchase a Rhino and keep the balance of parts.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 05:55:38


Post by: Lockark


Thank you moff. I'm very happy to hear that you asked about this, and how it was handled. This is very good news.
^-^


But the fact BTP has a track record of these kinds of "mistakes", still worries me. BTP expects you to cross you t's and dot your i's when you deal with them. (You yourself tend to allude to this in both ten's and this thread.) THEIR mistake almost cost YOU $60, in this situation.

What bugs me about BTP is that so many times I've read about BTP on this and other message boards is that these "mistakes" tend to be to BTP's benefit if not caught....



If Shawn was telling the truth, then this is a failure of inventory management. The person handling the commission was not aware of stock and thus needlessly overcharged a customer. This is a running theme you even see that happened in the case of ten's army. Ten mentioned that he spent alot on a converstion budget in his army, but BTP did very little with the army. I think they over charged for the few bits needed for the small conversions they did do on his army.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 08:44:37


Post by: Casey's Law


It feels like their set up is intentionally designed to slip these charges under the net without clarifying them to the customer. The hope being that they can get free kits out of it for use in later projects, or worse, cash in the bank, worse again, the miniatures in their back pockets.

The whole operation feels like an attempt to dupe people out of money. Very disconcerting.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 08:59:53


Post by: Sidstyler


At least they caught their mistake (or "mistake", whatever the case may be) in this case.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 09:00:14


Post by: Herzlos


It does strike me as one of the companies you need to be very careful when dealing with.

Moff - I'm glad that they dropped the charge, though the cynic in me thinks that that's how they run the business - sneak in unnecessary charges and fineprint and drop them when spotted.

I'd have assumed that they'd have a bin full of Rhino parts and known that the launcher isn't often used, so would also have assumed that the conversion budget would be an "up to", on the premise that they'd charge the full amount if they needed to buy the kits, but would try and source them from stock. The flat rate reads that they'd charge the full amount even if they didn't need to buy anything. Because realistically at the quote stage they can't know what they'll have in stock at the time the comission comes in, it makes bad business sense to reserve the parts before the deposit, and an ability to see into the future to quote for the kits before the comission is on their assembly desk.

But still, at least it's sorted in your case


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 09:35:51


Post by: Reality-Torrent


 Sidstyler wrote:
At least they caught their mistake (or "mistake", whatever the case may be) in this case.


They didn't catch it, it was pointed out to them..


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 11:12:22


Post by: Sidstyler


Well...it did get fixed at least.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 12:46:35


Post by: xxvaderxx


IMO the problem here was that the OP accepted the charge to begin with, there is no cloak and dagger here, it is right there in the open. This is again what i stated before, when you asked how much for X, and thy said 60, the answer should have been "No Thanks" or Use alternative parts or what ever. Not Ok here is my money, and then have second thoughts about this. It really surprises me that people conduct their business the way they show on Dakka Dakka.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 14:41:30


Post by: jonolikespie


xxvaderxx wrote:
IMO the problem here was that the OP accepted the charge to begin with, there is no cloak and dagger here, it is right there in the open. This is again what i stated before, when you asked how much for X, and thy said 60, the answer should have been "No Thanks" or Use alternative parts or what ever. Not Ok here is my money, and then have second thoughts about this. It really surprises me that people conduct their business the way they show on Dakka Dakka.


Unless, you know, BTP themselves admit it's a mistake. At that point I think it's safe to say all blame can be removed from the OP because, as we've covered, BTP have themselves said they where at fault.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/29 15:20:54


Post by: xxvaderxx


 jonolikespie wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
IMO the problem here was that the OP accepted the charge to begin with, there is no cloak and dagger here, it is right there in the open. This is again what i stated before, when you asked how much for X, and thy said 60, the answer should have been "No Thanks" or Use alternative parts or what ever. Not Ok here is my money, and then have second thoughts about this. It really surprises me that people conduct their business the way they show on Dakka Dakka.


Unless, you know, BTP themselves admit it's a mistake. At that point I think it's safe to say all blame can be removed from the OP because, as we've covered, BTP have themselves said they where at fault.


No it isnt, because btp did it to show good will(which is actually bs), they could have just as well said no and they would still have not deceived the op and would still have been fair game. That is a situation the OP got him self into.

1- Op had perfect knowledge of the conversion budget TOS
2- The Op had perfect knowledge of the how much he was being asked for the conversion.
3- The OP accepted the TOS and the Charges.
4- The OP wrote to btp with a concern regarding the TOS and The money Asked
5- BTP offered to wave the charges. (with a bs excuse) to keep the customer happy.

It could all have been addressed at 2.5 but the op didnt.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/11/30 22:47:57


Post by: Anfauglir


xxvaderxx wrote:
No it isnt, because btp did it to show good will(which is actually bs), they could have just as well said no and they would still have not deceived the op and would still have been fair game. That is a situation the OP got him self into.

There seems to be some confusion. BTP didn't need to buy any kits for the parts needed for the OP, because BTP already had them in their "wall" or whatever, probably from previously bought kits on earlier commissions... you know, that whole "keeping costs down for customers" thing they have going. So, when the OP logged his conversion request, the quote should have been $0, not $60. However, they just charged the going rate on the assumption that they'd need the whole kit and didn't think twice about checking. If it was a genuine "mistake" then it's still malpractice via negligence that leaves the paying customer $60 out of pocket. If not, then it's theft, plain and simple. Does that look like "good will" or "fair game"? Hmm?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/01 01:23:13


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


"benefits other customers" I think was the wording.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/01 21:30:36


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
"benefits other customers" I think was the wording.
The rule is, jam yesterday, and jam to-morrow, but never jam today. :p

The Auld Grump


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/01 22:07:35


Post by: Saldiven


 M0ff3l wrote:

I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Painting a single model like a space marine, even to a high degree of detail, should be done in a single day. Sending a photo of the sample via e-mail is virtually instantaneous. Even with differences of opinion, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to end up with a satisfactory representation. Then, the rest of the project is painted to the same standard, and the project is finished.

Painting the whole project before submitting for the customer's review is a gamble. If the customer is happy, then you've saved some time (like a day or two for project delivery). If the client is unhappy, the company has dramatically increased the time for delivery as the changes have to be made to the entire project.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/02 00:49:10


Post by: Stormwall


Cheers on calling them out on that Moff. Ugh, that's pretty shifty though.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/02 04:12:36


Post by: plastictrees


Saldiven wrote:
 M0ff3l wrote:

I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.


I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Painting a single model like a space marine, even to a high degree of detail, should be done in a single day. Sending a photo of the sample via e-mail is virtually instantaneous. Even with differences of opinion, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to end up with a satisfactory representation. Then, the rest of the project is painted to the same standard, and the project is finished.

Painting the whole project before submitting for the customer's review is a gamble. If the customer is happy, then you've saved some time (like a day or two for project delivery). If the client is unhappy, the company has dramatically increased the time for delivery as the changes have to be made to the entire project.


Especially given the size of BTP this should just be part of the process. Presumably no painter is working on just one project at a time, sample models go in the 'sample tray', some intern photographs them and sends them off to the client, while in progress projects continue. It literally wouldn't waste any time other than removing that test model from the batch painting conveyor belt.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/03 04:24:23


Post by: Bagombo


Hey Moff, as a chronic lurker, I want to say thanks for continuing to post updates. I am always on the edge of getting models painted by a service (so far I have always been too cheap), and this kind of info is very valuable for me.

I will say, the thing that strikes me about the Havoc launcher cost is that (iirc) in your original reply to the quote, you pointed out to the staff member preparing the quote that it was more expensive than you were expecting. I'm surprised they didn't take a second look at that point and figure out the mistake.

*edit: LETTERS FOR THE SPELLING GOD!


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/04 23:42:30


Post by: Azazelx


 M0ff3l wrote:

I will admit, this whole thing would have been easier if I actually had an entire project from start to finish to review. But it was a loss/loss situation for me, in Tenebres thread I was being called out for "lying" etc because I wasnt posting proof of my project with BTP. When I said I would post the entire project with a review of the entire process people said I would just paint them myself or whatever. So I made the thread. Now people blame me for posting it without results and all I can do is refer them back to the people hating on me in Tenebres thread. This alone has really shown me that I cant please people with this thread and it isnt being appreciated.


Seriously mate. Names.

"People" is useless. The posters on this board are not a hivemind.

I'm the one who kept calling you out to show proof (based on your repeated skepticism and calling of Tenebre to show "proof" that you'd find acceptable.

Eventually you started this thread. I've posted like 4 times total in it in total now - including this post. No posts of mine have been offensive or derogatory towards anyone, including BTP. I've posted a kudos to yourself for manning up and starting it, one question to Winterdyne about his Dredd-Arbites, one question about the conversion policy, and this post.

I still feel that you have a moral obligation to follow through with your proof right to the end. You'll have to ignore the bs in this thread order to prove that you're not full of bs yourself. You wanted to champion their painting services, so follow through.


I also think others might need to try some self-moderation to an extent so that we get to see the finished product.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/05 01:33:48


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
"benefits other customers" I think was the wording.
The rule is, jam yesterday, and jam to-morrow, but never jam today. :p

The Auld Grump


You are an absolute treasure.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 01:25:38


Post by: M0ff3l


Name,

Your models are ready to move into painting now. A Painter is now available and ready to start in on them. Here are some snapshots of your havoc launchers. let me know if you want something more or different. We are at your beck and call.

Name


image(they send several, this one sums it up... not much different than i expected obviously):


A bit of damage from were my plastic glue was but I'm sure that it will make some nice rust or nurgly effect once painted over. I send them my approval and 5 secs later got a reply:

Name,

Thank you very much. Check in whenever you like.

Name


So I can check in whenever I like even if I didnt ask for this treatment, seems like they have learned from the Tenebre incedent.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 01:28:40


Post by: Eldarain


It would be nice if that is the case. Either way I'm glad that you are being treated far better than he was.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 02:06:41


Post by: Alfndrate


Thanks for the update man, you did the GS work on those Rhinos right?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 02:17:02


Post by: Sidstyler


I like the tentacle coming out of one of the bullet holes, that's a neat idea. Never thought about it before but it's kinda cool imagining the tank taking damage and then..."stuff" just coming out of it.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 08:20:13


Post by: Redbad


Lurker here:

Really nice. I'm glad BTP isn't dicking you around.

I hope things work out for them, and that they learned from the tenebre incident.
Hopefully this works out

Thanks
Austin


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 08:39:09


Post by: Capamaru


The mere fact that they are watching this whole thread compromises any sincere attempt to treat you as they should be treating all their customers.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 08:57:40


Post by: Sidstyler


Do we know for a fact they are watching the thread?


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 09:03:49


Post by: Delephont


 Capamaru wrote:
The mere fact that they are watching this whole thread compromises any sincere attempt to treat you as they should be treating all their customers.


Well, that's not entirely a bad thing. It means that BTP can be regulated by public review of the work they do. It also provides them with free public advertising.....so in the end, everyone's a winner.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 09:05:38


Post by: Capamaru


I am pretty sure they are watching carefully forums like this one.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 14:52:29


Post by: squall018


I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 17:36:08


Post by: xxvaderxx


 squall018 wrote:
I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.


I dont see why they would, they are a business, they did what they considered appropriate with Tenebre but at some point they just move on, for better or worst that was just 1 project.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 21:09:34


Post by: Ustrello


xxvaderxx wrote:
 squall018 wrote:
I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.


I dont see why they would, they are a business, they did what they considered appropriate with Tenebre but at some point they just move on, for better or worst that was just 1 project.


Yeah a 7-9 thousand dollar mistake on their end. Pretty sure that was the biggest project they have every done, and it shows they can't handle that or anything really beyond a piss poor painting level.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/06 22:07:08


Post by: Herzlos


xxvaderxx wrote:
 squall018 wrote:
I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.


I dont see why they would, they are a business, they did what they considered appropriate with Tenebre but at some point they just move on, for better or worst that was just 1 project.


It's a business, run by an ego. You can bet that he's reading everything on here related to his company.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/07 05:52:20


Post by: Toofast


While I highly doubt it was their largest project ever, it certainly was far larger than the average 1500-2500 point army they do. The fact that it didn't receive any extra care or customer service shows a lot about the way the ccompany views their customers.

However, that discussion is better left in the other thread. I hope this OP has a pleasant experience, but I hardly see how this could be considered a test for the "average" BTP job. I'm 99% sure they're aware of this thread and the other thread, and will do their best to give OP his money's worth on this job.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/10 23:48:02


Post by: M0ff3l


Got a surprising email today:

Name,

I started working on your project today and I wanted to show you a sample I did. Let me know what you think of it and if any improvements or changes to bring it as close to what you would like as possible.

Thanks for your time!
Name.
Art Director
BTP


Here are some of the pictures they sent me:





The only improvement I told them was that the legs could maybe be a little more rusty on the front side. Everything else I'm pretty happy with, maybe the little eye smudge could get neatened up.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 00:45:31


Post by: Casey's Law


That looks pretty poor to my eye but the photographs are horrendously unprofessional so it's hard to actually see anything worth seeing. I'm glad you are happy with it though even if I wouldn't be. Wouldn't be very nice if you were disappointed after paying all that money.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 01:30:35


Post by: plastictrees


This is level 3 remember.
Moff3l: Did BTP specify what level 3 meant for your project?

My only real comments would be that they eyes seem lazy, it's not hard to put the paint in the lens.
Also I think they could be tying your GS work in to the armour a bit more. Right now it's a little obvious as there is no overlap between the green armour and the GS rot.
That's probably outside the scope of level 3 though.

Sending you a sample pic out of the blue suggests that they have either changed their policy or are reading this thread.

I'm sort of hoping that theres is someone lurking out there with another BTP project on the go that can let us know if they are having an experiance similar to yours.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 01:57:18


Post by: melkorthetonedeaf


 plastictrees wrote:


Sending you a sample pic out of the blue suggests that they have either changed their policy or are reading this thread.


Maybe both! I'm just glad for the update.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 02:04:13


Post by: Casey's Law


It's entirely possible that it looks a lot better than I currently think it does but those pictures are just not up to scratch to show the miniature.

Put it this way, if someone posted them on Dakka for feedback then they would be getting quite a few responses with advice on better photography set ups.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 02:48:33


Post by: Ustrello


plastictrees wrote:This is level 3 remember.
Moff3l: Did BTP specify what level 3 meant for your project?

My only real comments would be that they eyes seem lazy, it's not hard to put the paint in the lens.
Also I think they could be tying your GS work in to the armour a bit more. Right now it's a little obvious as there is no overlap between the green armour and the GS rot.
That's probably outside the scope of level 3 though.

Sending you a sample pic out of the blue suggests that they have either changed their policy or are reading this thread.

I'm sort of hoping that theres is someone lurking out there with another BTP project on the go that can let us know if they are having an experiance similar to yours.


Yeah the eyes are pretty terrible. Otherwise it looks okay, then again it is hard to mess up a nurgle chaos space marine army.

Casey's Law wrote:It's entirely possible that it looks a lot better than I currently think it does but those pictures are just not up to scratch to show the miniature.

Put it this way, if someone posted them on Dakka for feedback then they would be getting quite a few responses with advice on better photography set ups.


Yeah the reflection from the overhead lights are taking a lot away from the model.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 06:50:03


Post by: winterwind85


This is One paint airbrushed on with a wash and some drybrushing.. Poor paintjob.. Lenses are poor done.
Dont Kniebundhose everyone can paint like this while only Reading a tut


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 07:03:25


Post by: RoninXiC


For level 3 it's alright I guess. Not great, but alright.

The foto itself is a joke... no seriously, no professional company should be this horrible.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 07:53:09


Post by: RivenSkull


The edges of the bolter aren't drybrushed or edged well. It looks like paint has been glopped on.





It does look like just an airbrush base, a wash, and maybe a drybrush.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 08:12:18


Post by: winterdyne


Blunt man joins in.

That's a pretty poor conversion with a poor paint job, even for the $9.97 the OP is paying,

I would have rejected both. The former as 'I won't be able to make this look like anything other than something stuck into a space marine', and the latter as an appalling waste of effort.

The OP is paying for what in most studios equates to about 45 minutes to an hour of average working time. This does not look like an hour's work. More like 20 minutes.

OP: sorry if I seem insulting. It's not personal. It takes a while to master making what I consider decent plague marines (I can only think of two guys I know of). I just calls it as I sees it. I appreciate you making these posts, so thanks.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 09:08:23


Post by: Gorlack


I'm actually positively surprised - I assume that model isn't finished but is a work in progress. If it is in fact a finished model, my opinion will obviously be different.

But as far as a WIP goes I think it looks promising. It needs some details and a wee bit of love, and I hope the base isn't meant to look like that, but overall a good start.

And I think the nurgly-conversions are just fine


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 09:13:27


Post by: filbert


It helps that BTP are undoubtedly reading this thread and so will probably not make a hash of the final product. It helps that the OP did the GS work himself (at least I believe he did before sending the models to BTP, correct me if I am wrong) so that is one less thing for them to bodge or screw up. It also helps he has chosen a Death Guard/Nurgle colour theme that lends itself very well to speed painting/undercoat/wash/drybrush techniques. All in all, I am sure the OP will be very satisfied with his army but it really doesn't serve to prove anything other than add a little extra scrutiny on BTP's methods.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 09:13:49


Post by: Reality-Torrent


Not gonna say it's horrible, but it aint good either.. If you look at the eye the painter has painted outside of the eye.. This is not what I would expect to get for paying money to get someting painted.

Actually several things..

The backpack have clear damage from cutting..
The eye paint is outside of the eye..
The bolter makes me cry..

It is just an ugly model that even I could produce.. And I sure ain't no prof painter..

Lets just face it.. BTP just can't match up to the real painting studios..


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 09:40:50


Post by: Toofast


I've done better paint jobs while watching football games drunk. It's not terrible but I certainly wouldn't pay someone else to paint to that standard. I can do tac squads to that level in an afternoon.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 09:57:58


Post by: Capamaru


 Toofast wrote:
I've done better paint jobs while watching football games drunk. It's not terrible but I certainly wouldn't pay someone else to paint to that standard. I can do tac squads to that level in an afternoon.


Well in order for them to make money that is the whole idea behind their painting technique. Paint whole tac squads in an afternoon. As long as you are fine with that for the money you pay then no problem. The thing is they keep on producing lesser quality results as their painting level rises, compared to what other studios produce for the same amount of money. I don't care if they paint thousands of minis each year or if they paint ten. As long as they are unable to keep up with other studios in the market they are obsolete and need to reconsider their work practices.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 12:10:12


Post by: M0ff3l


 Gorlack wrote:
I'm actually positively surprised - I assume that model isn't finished but is a work in progress. If it is in fact a finished model, my opinion will obviously be different.

But as far as a WIP goes I think it looks promising. It needs some details and a wee bit of love, and I hope the base isn't meant to look like that, but overall a good start.

And I think the nurgly-conversions are just fine


The base is pretty much as per my requests in the instructions, and I really like how the base turned out.

Also please note I did the greenstuff work on all of the models, also the conversions etc. So any cuts or bad greenstuffing is not their fault. This model is a bit of a bad one, it's one of my earlier ones, and its from the DV kit, so no posing, I had to cover a lot of DA symbols etc. The one thing thats cool on this one is his left hand is melted with the bolter, but you cant really see it on this picture.

Also:

Name,

I confirm the smudge on the eye and will clean that up!

Thanks,
Name


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 14:19:17


Post by: flabluker


hey M0ff3I thanks for the update eye and bolter should be a bit neater easy fix at least they are communicating and working with ya .but at the end of the day if you are pleased they did there job


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 14:44:59


Post by: NuggzTheNinja


If that's Level 3, what should we expect from Levels 1 or 2?

It's pretty clearly been speed-painted, but the key to good speed-painting is to keep is simple and let the technique do the work (rather than precision brushwork), and keep it clean. That's not a very clean paintjob at all...the eye looks horrendous and the bolter looks pretty rough too.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 14:50:40


Post by: House Griffith


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
If that's Level 3, what should we expect from Levels 1 or 2?


Level 1: Primer
Level 2: Basecoat
Level 3: Wash
Level 4: 1-2 Details
Level 5: Half-assed edging
Level 6: OSL
Level 7: GOLDEN DEMON

To paraphrase winterdyne, that marine looks terrible. I certainly hope that the OP isn't trying to put a good face on possibly getting burned. OP, if this is your standard for what you consider quality, well then more power to you.
I'm only talking about the paint job, since I'm tracking the modeling was done by the OP.
The picture quality alone should tell you the standards under which this company operates.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 14:56:28


Post by: Lockark


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
If that's Level 3, what should we expect from Levels 1 or 2?

It's pretty clearly been speed-painted, but the key to good speed-painting is to keep is simple and let the technique do the work (rather than precision brushwork), and keep it clean. That's not a very clean paintjob at all...the eye looks horrendous and the bolter looks pretty rough too.


I think level 1 is you pay them to spray a primer on, and two is a base coat.

Like not joking I belive that came from a video.

Level 3 is their basic table top standard. A standard they charge a lot more for then other studios.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 15:19:49


Post by: tenebre


nkelsch wrote:


Here is the issue... This level of paint job for nurgle is easy to do. Base colors, drybrush, details, wash in camo, and slight highlights, usually more drybrush.

It is a nice paintjob, and easy to get quickly and will look better to the eyeball than it will to a zoomed in photo.

To compare a Nurgle paint job quality, or a muddy ork to a airbrushed fire effect chaos dwarf or highly detailed arbites makes a futile exercise.

And for those who think this is anything but 'money = time' remember:
42 Dollars to paint Typhus...
You need to recover some profit, to cover company expenses.
You need you cover raw materials, paint adds up.
You need to have a slight cost for infrastructure.
So that is probably going to be 5-8$ just on 'overhead' stuff...

So even if 35$ went to the painter... That is 3 hours MAX paint job. You can't get blending and extreme highlighting in that time.

I think you will probably get decent tabletop models you probably will be happy with... but I also think nurgle are easier to paint compared to tzeeench or models with actual fleshtones. I would love to see all 4 chaos gods presented as a single job since you would run the gambit of technique, styles and paint colors with the 4 gods.


The picture above and the work produced are far from equal or even close in quality. I agree with what you said, but its the responsibility of the business to quote the price needed to produce the quality requested. I have to admit the dedication the OP has to trying to show BTP as being good awes me. It spits in the face of the community and myself personally. This commission was sent in after my problem and therefore shows direct support for the actions of BTP against the gaming community and myself.

I will not say much else on this thread, but i do feel the what the OP is trying to do here is despicable. (while as a rule I would hope no one has their models damaged, since this was done as a direct retort to my problem i could not care less)

While this is a cheap job, there are plenty of other studios who can do better work or even the same for the same cost (especially when considering shipping), so there is no reason to use BTP except to show support for their recent actions.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 15:33:03


Post by: Thud


People are happily paying $10 for that?

lol


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 15:46:57


Post by: Rayvon


Looks to me like the OP is blatantly trying to justify his decision choosing BTP to do this job.

At the end of the day if he is happy, then more power to him, just don't take this thread as any sort of legitimate cross sample as they are obviously monitoring it.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 17:37:58


Post by: Redbad


I, as an OK painter, would be somewhat proud of that if I painted it. My best piece of work was a tomb king standard bearer, that is where I finally figured out washing, and proper drybrushing. I was so pleased, but it took 4 hours in all, and about 6 layers of drybrushing, and 5 colors, it looked better than this.

But if I were speed painting for a tourney, I'd be happy with this

Thanks
Austin


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 17:44:07


Post by: RiTides


The paint job on that test mini looks alright to me, depending on cost. Then again, I have a feeling they're keeping a special eye on this project given that the progress is being logged and with the "other project" (chaos dwarfs) that this was supposed to sort of be "in contrast" to.

Regardless, I appreciate the tenaciousness of the OP, and wish him the best of luck in getting his army back to a good standard! I think logging the progress every step of the way is the absolute smartest thing you can do to ensure their best effort.



Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 18:05:53


Post by: winterdyne


Please stop bad mouthing or disparaging the OP.
Fact is that's $10 of BTP work. Everything else is opinion.
As for blends and extremes in a 3 hour job, certainly possible. I reckon I could do a pretty damn fine typhus in 3 hours.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 18:35:24


Post by: Lockark


The fact they contacted mof with a test mini when he never even asked? It's obvious btp is watching this thread, and did thus due to comments in this thread.

We already saw how btp actually REFUSED to do this for a much larger and more expensive project.

No offense but mof is obviously Benefiting a lot from the fact he has made this thread, and is already getting better service then the average btp customer.

Despite some grips with the paint job on that guy, i would argue mof has gotten a better paint job then ten who paid almost twice a much per individual guy for higher levels.

If mof wasn't benefiting from a bias created from this thread, that is still pretty damning on btp's part on how bad ten got screwed.

To claim now this is going to be a fair review would be unethical because of the bias both mof and btp are giving to each other.

I still would like to see the finished army. But in all honesty btp has demonstrated their true colors once agien in my mind. Apparently you can't get good work out of them unless your creating a social media circus around them from the start.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 18:40:48


Post by: winterdyne


It's also a good yardstick for what BTP can put out at best for a certain level of work. And what they think the optimal handling of a project is. It's worth observing, regardless of any perceived bias. Really speaking, any work out out by any studio should be observed by someone looking to place a commission. It's hard to disguise capabilities, or lack thereof. Again that makes this thread worth observing.


Blue Table Painting CSM Blog @ 2014/12/11 19:41:14


Post by: M0ff3l


I still think it might be possible that they just do the sample fig for everyone now, not just me. I didnt ask for it, they still did it.

Maybe they are reading the thread and thats why they did it, maybe they just do it for all customers now. Maybe both. I would love it if someone else who has done or is going to do a project with BTP since the tenebre thing could PM me and tell me if this is the case. (PM so that there can be no doubt about that BTP just read his post and did it..)

And the last thing before I go back to update only mode,

The picture Tenebre linked was only for the color (as the text above it clearly says), they didnt get it exactly right but I like it this way. I 100% honestly like this model (After the extra rust and the eye clean up I asked for ofcourse). If any other service had delivered this I would have been happy, if I had gotten better fromm a different service, thats my fault for not picking them then.

But saying that I am white knighting them because I like the model? Thats like saying anyone who likes [insert crappy band here]'s music is just white knighting them... Its like winterdyne said completely opinion based.

I feel like inserting my opinion on MY models has nothing to do with the review whatsoever. If you like their work, maybe give em a spin, if you hate it, dont use them.