Over 6,000 years ago an Elven prince was denied his birthright. Now he seeks to reclaim it. The bloodiest, most tragic war of the End Times is about to begin. Be here on Saturday the 22nd of November to find out more.
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
Copied from talkwargaming for completeness in thread.
After a few weeks of 40k releases we are back to the End Times, however it appears that we will not be receiving any new Warhammer Fantasy miniatures on the 29th November. We will however be getting the latest chapter in the campaign; Warhammer: Khaine. From the name of the book and the hints posted on GWs Daily Blog it is clear that this next installment will be covering the Elves. However we currently have little more than speculation.
In addition to the End Times book we also have our annual release of The Hobbit miniatures. With The Battle Of The Five Armies soon to hit cinemas it was expected that the LOTR franchise would be revisited.
The full set of releases due for the 29th November can be found below, courtesy of Meraklis over at Warseer. We will keep you posted should any images of the upcoming White Dwarf be leaked.
New Release items for this week are: -
· White Dwarf - Issue No. 44 - 36 pages of everything that is exciting and new in the Hobby this week.
· The Hobbit - Thranduil, King of the Woodland Realm: Available While Stocks Last - Contains 2 Finecast miniatures of Thranduil mounted on horse and on foot in a clampack.
· The Hobbit - Legolas Greenleaf, Prince of Mirkwood: Available While Stocks Last - Contains 2 Finecast miniatures of Legolas mounted on horse and on foot in a clampack.
· The Hobbit - Tauriel, Mirkwood Exile: Available While Stocks Last - Contains 1 Finecast miniature of Tauriel on foot in a clampack.
· The Hobbit - Mirkwood Armoured Captain: Available While Stocks Last - Contains 1 Finecast miniatures of Tauriel on foot in a clampack.
· The Hobbit - Mirkwood Armoured Bowmen: Available While Stocks Last - Contains 3 Finecast miniatures in a Clampack.
· Warhammer: Khaine - Available While Stocks Last - The next installment of the End Times.
Black Library New Release items for this week are: -
· The End Times: The Curse of Khaine - 400 page hardback novel tie-in for Warhammer; The End Times, in English language only.
· Horus Heresy: Templar - 1 CD audio drama, 70 minute run time.
Update 1
More information regarding what information can be found within the Khaine Book.
The book contains rules for characters including Malekith, Tyrion, Imrik, some chap called the Eternity King and The Avatar of Khaine.
Apparently there are "amazing changes to how magic works in the End Times" and it looks like each lore gets a new spell, there's a preview in the magazine but I don't have time to type it out now.
They talk about the lists in the magazine: There is the Host of the Phoenix King which seems to be a combined Asur, Asrai, Druchii army under Malekith and Teclis and the Aestyrion, who are loyal to Tyrion.
There is a third list mentioned but no details given other than: "In Warhammer: Khaine there is, once and for all, an absolute winner in the war for the Phoenix Crown. The third army represents the Elves that survive."
Warhams-77 wrote: End Times IV is about Skaven and released in January 2015. It will bring a new Thanquol and a bone ripper model. Source: Arthurius11 on Warseer
Given how ancient Thanquol and Boneripper are, I'm not surprised. Would probably be a 3in1 pack IMO so you could have a Grey Seer/Warlord/Thanquol riding a big nasty rat ogre
There is some more info from Felwether (Warseer) directly from the magazine
New WD just landed in. The book contains rules for characters including Malekith, Tyrion, Imrik, some chap called the Eternity King and The Avatar of Khaine.
Apparently there are "amazing changes to how magic works in the End Times" and it looks like each lore gets a new spell, there's a preview in the magazine but I don't have time to type it out now.
EDIT: They talk about the lists in the magazine: There is the Host of the Phoenix King which seems to be a combined Asur, Asrai, Druchii army under Malekith and Teclis and the Aestyrion, who are loyal to Tyrion.
There is a third list mentioned but no details given other than: "In Warhammer: Khaine there is, once and for all, an absolute winner in the war for the Phoenix Crown. The third army represents the Elves that survive."
EDIT: Warhammer: Khaine is the same price as the Glottkin book, there also seems to be an abridged paperback version for the price of an army book.
Holy crap, just noticed that there are magic cards being released!
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
I could see Skaven fitting also, but meh.
What's the thinking? That that the ogres eat everybody?
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
I could see Skaven fitting also, but meh.
What's the thinking? That that the ogres eat everybody?
Ogres just naturally engage in total war. If there's food they are staying to eat before they move on and taking prisioners is a foreign concept.
Imrik and Tyrion don't get along.
The whole hidden text works quite well in this regard. Tyrion becoming the Phoenix King after Finubar isn't too hard to believe, but Imrik most likely would not enjoy that.
It's a pretty safe bet to assume that Finubar will get the chop, as he's always been a background character, Phoenix kings never outlive Maleketh, and it'll neatly move the story arc along.
Shame, because I always hoped to see Finubar in miniature.
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My knowledge of such matters is entirely.derived from comic books
Technically Conquest, War, Death and Famine are the four horsemen, but Conquest has been frequently subsumed by Pestilence, especially latterly, so either is possibly correct, depending on what you're drawing your references from, but Conquest is the original.
Flashman wrote: Still intrigued to see where all this End Times stuff is leading to.
Experience suggests that supplements such as this are all but forgotten (in terms of support) a year later.
I expect to see Blightkings, maggoth lords etc as part of chaos armies on the 9th. But yes your right.
To be honest we do need more buzz in wfb and these end of time waves are doing just that.
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
I could see Skaven fitting also, but meh.
How is Nurgle Conquest?
What a passive-aggressive way to point out my ignorance.
Eldarain wrote: Good question. I'm hoping they use it as a springboard to really shake up the game and setting in 9th
I'm really hoping they don't, there was never any need to "shake up"(ie, completely wreck) the setting in order to fix the issues with the game mechanics.
First - Anti Christ - White horse
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come and see!” I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. ( Revelation 6:1-2)
Second - War - Red horse
When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come and see!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. ( Revelation 6:3-4)
Third - Famine - Black Horse
When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!” (Revelation 6:5-6)
Forth - Death - Pale Horse
When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come and see!” I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Revelation 6:7-8)
The comic books and popular tv has changed it for a more.... less offensiveness
War, Famine, Plague and death
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
I could see Skaven fitting also, but meh.
Actually youre 2 for 3, Pestilence isnt one of the horsemen, look it up. Rumors indicate that theres a 5th book in the series in any case.
The implication is that Malekith isnt the bad guy. Also, its not split along factions, one of the lists is the Wood, Dark, and High elves united behind Malekith, the other list is the resistance lead by errr.... Tyrion or Teclis I forget which because I confuse the two constantly. The third list is the survivors lead by unknown.
First - Anti Christ - White horse I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come and see!” I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. ( Revelation 6:1-2)
The white horse is actually Conquest, not the Antichrist. The antichrist is repeatedly called "The Beast(of the earth)" and the False Prophet in Revelations.
Such a disappointing model to have on the front cover.
I thought there were bits in the new plastic kit that resemble Malekith... Though I guess they don't sell their old finecast Malekiths that way...
Aren't the old dragons still metal? A combined force makes the banner of Nagarythe pretty awesome assuming the list gives us access to the proper units.
Actually youre 2 for 3, Pestilence isnt one of the horsemen, look it up.
Wow. Isn't it windy up there on that horse?
Except in pop culture it is. Every 4 horsemen trope has a rider of pestilence. Do you think if GW were to base in on the 4 horsemen they would dig up the real Revelations or use the pop culture horsemen which everybody knows?
Actually youre 2 for 3, Pestilence isnt one of the horsemen, look it up.
Wow. Isn't it windy up there on that horse?
Except in pop culture it is. Every 4 horsemen trope has a rider of pestilence. Do you think if GW were to base in on the 4 horsemen they would dig up the real Revelations or use the pop culture horsemen which everybody knows?
You never know. Also, again, rumored as a 5 book series, so I wouldnt focus too much on the "Horseman of the Apocalypse" angle
Opeth30 wrote: Aren't the old dragons still metal? A combined force makes the banner of Nagarythe pretty awesome assuming the list gives us access to the proper units.
The dragon in the Malekith kit I bought 10 years ago had a plastic one.
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
I could see Skaven fitting also, but meh.
Actually youre 2 for 3, Pestilence isnt one of the horsemen, look it up. Rumors indicate that theres a 5th book in the series in any case.
The implication is that Malekith isnt the bad guy. Also, its not split along factions, one of the lists is the Wood, Dark, and High elves united behind Malekith, the other list is the resistance lead by errr.... Tyrion or Teclis I forget which because I confuse the two constantly. The third list is the survivors lead by unknown.
In pop culture and common knowledge pestilence is one of the 4 horsemen.
Ask any random fellow on the street, and they will (incorrectly) say pestilence.
Unless they are familiar with the Bible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote: After all the excitement all we get is a reminder that GW have no fething idea how to make a cool looking dragon
Yeah, GW dragons aren't great. FW is slightly better, but not by much.
So there is going to be a combined Elves list in this book? What is the pre order date? Because if it's before I get paid I'm gonna miss out on this due to their stupid 'let's make these books that are selling really well limited edition' policy.
Well, this promises to be a wild story! And some wild games.
Just gotta watch GWs site like a hawk and get it ordered before it sells out!
And on the topic of Dragons, I think the Dragon for the Lord of the Rings game made by GW is pretty nifty. Its simple and a pretty vanilla dragon, as far as they go, but I always liked it.
And why have they not made any new models, halfway through a series which so far has had awesome new models? Why do GW have this innate ability to take what should be a good thing and somehow completely mess it up.
ImAGeek wrote: So there is going to be a combined Elves list in this book? What is the pre order date? Because if it's before I get paid I'm gonna miss out on this due to their stupid 'let's make these books that are selling really well limited edition' policy.
It'll be 22nd November 2014 and hit shelves on the 29th.
I quite like the current Dark Elves Dreadlord/Sorceress dragon. Of the old type designs, the Forest dragon was pretty good. Bud I cannot stand either the old Beastlord Rakarth dragon or the Malekith dragon. Ick.
"Right I've had a bit of a read through the White Dwarf and I can make out the following regarding End Times spells:
In a game set during the End Times, Wizards of Level 3 or higher know End Times spells in addition to the other spells that they know. Each different End Times spell can be cast only once per Magic phase and "cannot be dispelled if successfully cast" (see page 8).
Most End Times spells are extensions of existing Lores of Magic and benefit from the lore attribute of their parent lore in the usual way. Any Wizard who knows the lore in question will also know any End Times spells associated with that lore.
Some End Times spells are not associated with any lore (for example, Conjure Arcane Fulcrum - on page 10). These spells can be used by any wizard, unless they state otherwise.
Battle Magic: End Times consists of 22 cards so it would seem that there are quite a few spells.
Also, it's stated in WD that Tyrion draws the Widowmaker, not Malekith.
There's a picture of Malekith, Teclis and the Everqueen at the head of a combined Asur, Asrai and Druchii army. This is 'The Host of the Phoenix King' list.
Malekith is stated as being the sole claimant to the Phoenix Crown and there's a suggestion that Tyrion might actually be the bad guy."
Khaine is War. So we're 3 for 3 for the actual Horsemen of the Apocalypse analogues. This leaves Famine. Does this mean the last End Times release will be Ogre based? That would be epic.
Meh. I was kinda grinding the idea of them chilling in their forest, not giving a damn about all those "nagashes", "glottkins", "uber karls" and "malekiths".
Doesnt that have some, errr.... interesting implications for things? Given that the Dark Elves, at least in part, worship Khaine, and Tyrion is now, evidently, the living embodiement of Khaine... does that mean that the Aestyrion have access to things like Wyches, Blood Cauldrons, etc?
chaos0xomega wrote: Doesnt that have some, errr.... interesting implications for things? Given that the Dark Elves, at least in part, worship Khaine, and Tyrion is now, evidently, the living embodiement of Khaine... does that mean that the Aestyrion have access to things like Wyches, Blood Cauldrons, etc?
From the look of things, the three armies are mashed together and torn apart again, so Khainite stuff going with the avatar of khaine makes sense.
Well, should be interesting, I await with bated breath.
The one thing that I'm wondering though is if the next edition is post end times, and the 'survivors' list is made up of a limited smattering of units from each book... what happens to everything that doesn't survive? Is it getting 'squatted'? I mean, presumably they won't be keeping Malekith and Tyrions forces around at that point, right?
It were the characters of Tyrion and Teclis that got me interested in Warhammer two decades ago. I do not know what I should think about this fluff ... I definitely do not like my hero Tyrion being the villain here.
I have always seen Tyrion and Teclis as GW's version of the Dragonlance characters Caramon and Raistlin (i.e. twins, with one a mighty warrior and the other a sickly but powerful mage).
Pure speculation here, but I suspect the arrow Alith Anar looses will be at Tyrion at the very end after he kills Malekith, and it will kill him and bring the conflict to a halt. Alternatively, maybe it is directed at Malekith after he kills Tyrion and similarly ends everything.
To be fair, Tyrion, and the High Elves as a whole, never really were good guys... If you actually read the fluff you see that they, much like the Dark and Wood Elves, are actually petty, brutal, and treachorous xenophobes
Iracundus wrote: I have always seen Tyrion and Teclis as GW's version of the Dragonlance characters Caramon and Raistlin (i.e. twins, with one a mighty warrior and the other a sickly but powerful mage).
Pure speculation here, but I suspect the arrow Alith Anar looses will be at Tyrion at the very end after he kills Malekith, and it will kill him and bring the conflict to a halt. Alternatively, maybe it is directed at Malekith after he kills Tyrion and similarly ends everything.
I dont think Tyrion or Malekith will survive. I'm thinking that events will culminate with the surviving elves swearing fealty to the Everqueen and abandoning the concept of the Phoenix King entirely. IEither that or Darkblade somehow steals the show...
My guess is that the referenced 'rescue attempt' to the Chaos Wastes is to either retrieve Darkblade or to retrieve Morathi. If Darkblade, through some twist of fate it turns out he's the offspring of Malekiths older brother (and therefore a legitimate heir to the Phoenix Crown). If its Morathi, my guess ist hat we discover that she was involved with the flames burning Malekith for whatever reason and she gets offed for her treachery (thus removing any potential dark counterpart to the Everqueen from the picture to prevent there being a dissident faction of Elves).
Urgh.. I hate this.
I disliked the idea of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings working together.
I HATE the idea of the Elves working together. Not only does the studio army look stupidly random on the pictures, there is no way whatsoever to convince me of the fluff background making any sense.
The distinction between the different races of Elves has been one of THE fundamental aspects of the Warhammer world.
For a stupid money grab they throw it over board..
RoninXiC wrote: Urgh.. I hate this.
I disliked the idea of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings working together.
I HATE the idea of the Elves working together. Not only does the studio army look stupidly random on the pictures, there is no way whatsoever to convince me of the fluff background making any sense.
The distinction between the different races of Elves has been one of THE fundamental aspects of the Warhammer world.
For a stupid money grab they throw it over board..
I hate this.
See, I'm the opposite. I've literally just started collecting a Dark Elf army, I was trying to think of some fluff reasons why I'd start collecting a Wood Elf army, too. Wood Elves have dark elements that I quite like exploring, so this announcement from GW is quite good for me!
RoninXiC wrote: Urgh.. I hate this.
I disliked the idea of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings working together.
I HATE the idea of the Elves working together. Not only does the studio army look stupidly random on the pictures, there is no way whatsoever to convince me of the fluff background making any sense.
The distinction between the different races of Elves has been one of THE fundamental aspects of the Warhammer world.
For a stupid money grab they throw it over board..
I hate this.
Well if the WHFB world is ending, I'd imagine it's even more of a bitter pill for them to swallow. Besides, no-one's forcing you to buy it are they? How about we all wait until the book is actually out before complaining about it?
Fireball wrote: It were the characters of Tyrion and Teclis that got me interested in Warhammer two decades ago. I do not know what I should think about this fluff ... I definitely do not like my hero Tyrion being the villain here.
Well, Dark Elves were my very first GW army. I don't much like the idea that Malekith could lose/die in the end. One of us is going to be mighty disappointed. Heck, either or both of us may be completely appalled at what we're left with as an army list at the end.
Wait, so Tyrion is going to be the Avatar of Khaine?
Way to take a dump on the whole Darkblade series, GW.
Not to mention that, according to the prophecy, Tyrion can't kill Malekith as he isn't a sorcerer. So Malekith will kill Tyrion then get backstabbed by Teclis, most likely.
Been playing Druchii since the early nineties.. Asur and Asraii at times as well.. really nothing that has been shared so far goes against what I have seen from the books and the background written before it.
In fact I'm actually surprised how well they thought it through, ties into several threads of Elf lore that have been in place since the very start of the proper Elf background tales pretty much.
Of course, after the final battle if Malekith and certain Asur are still standing/released from their situation.. I can see some very interesting things going down.
Also tempted to get this one, as I'd like to see where Morathi ends up... my guess would be abandoning Malekith, to side with Tyrion/Khaine.
I've got agree with some people here and wonder what the hell GW are up too.
I'm all for moving on the storyline and bumping off a few characters, but this chainsaw approach could endanger the entire game. GW risk throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
If I were in charge, I would have done the following to the storyline to advance it for 9th edition:
Dark Elves/High Elves: Teclis to turn evil, Tyrion to have been phoenix king, and Malekith to have been overthrown (but not killed) by a Teclis and that woman who is in charge of the witch elves, alliance
Result: good storyline between Teclis and Tyrion ( yeah I know it's a bit dragonlance ), whilst Malekith and his mother lurk in the background plotting their return.
Empire: Kislev overrun, beastmen laying siege to Middenhiem, Marienburg taken over by undead.
Brettonia: The king killed, the rise of Mousillion, and a land grab by the wood elves.
Dwarfs Vs Greenskins in a massive royal rumble. Skaven plotting in background or invading the empire or Lustria
Chaos invading the dark elf realm, daemons everywhere, lizardmen to the rescue.
Tomb kings is problematic, but Vampire counts would be easy. In return for recognition of Slyvania, Manfred Von Carstein allies with the empire agianst its foes. Leave Vlad dead he had his chance.
And lastly, my favourite. If you want to rejuvenate WFB, introduce a new race: Cathy...
It moves along the story, gives enough inspiration for battles/campaigns, but doesn't burn the house down whilst doing it.
I'd love to buy this book as it seems like its going to be an exciting one. Besides elves are really starting to grow on me.
However I have little knowledge of the any of the elves. Do you think I will be lost reading this without prior background knowledge? Any recommended books to correct this or would warhammer wiki be sufficient enough to get a good idea of what these characters and armies are like?
Edit: On an off topic note after reading the post above about introducing a new race, god I always thought it would be amazing by the end of this series a new race comes into place. Personally I would love to see Nippon. Do any of the current books detail what's happening over there? I wanna see the samurai march at the end.
unmercifulconker wrote: I'd love to buy this book as it seems like its going to be an exciting one. Besides elves are really starting to grow on me.
However I have little knowledge of the any of the elves. Do you think I will be lost reading this without prior background knowledge? Any recommended books to correct this or would warhammer wiki be sufficient enough to get a good idea of what these characters and armies are like?
Edit: On an off topic note after reading the post above about introducing a new race, god I always thought it would be amazing by the end of this series a new race comes into place. Personally I would love to see Nippon. Do any of the current books detail what's happening over there? I wanna see the samurai march at the end.
Warhammer wiki is a good reference.
For me, a new race is the logical thing to do and an easy way to freshen up the game.
A samurai themed fantasy army with ninja elements would sell like ice cream of a summer's day!
Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
unmercifulconker wrote: I'd love to buy this book as it seems like its going to be an exciting one. Besides elves are really starting to grow on me.
However I have little knowledge of the any of the elves. Do you think I will be lost reading this without prior background knowledge? Any recommended books to correct this or would warhammer wiki be sufficient enough to get a good idea of what these characters and armies are like?
Edit: On an off topic note after reading the post above about introducing a new race, god I always thought it would be amazing by the end of this series a new race comes into place. Personally I would love to see Nippon. Do any of the current books detail what's happening over there? I wanna see the samurai march at the end.
Warhammer wiki is a good reference.
For me, a new race is the logical thing to do and an easy way to freshen up the game.
A samurai themed fantasy army with ninja elements would sell like ice cream of a summer's day!
unmercifulconker wrote: I'd love to buy this book as it seems like its going to be an exciting one. Besides elves are really starting to grow on me.
However I have little knowledge of the any of the elves. Do you think I will be lost reading this without prior background knowledge? Any recommended books to correct this or would warhammer wiki be sufficient enough to get a good idea of what these characters and armies are like?
Edit: On an off topic note after reading the post above about introducing a new race, god I always thought it would be amazing by the end of this series a new race comes into place. Personally I would love to see Nippon. Do any of the current books detail what's happening over there? I wanna see the samurai march at the end.
Warhammer wiki is a good reference.
For me, a new race is the logical thing to do and an easy way to freshen up the game.
A samurai themed fantasy army with ninja elements would sell like ice cream of a summer's day!
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
You misunderstand. Fantasy is on life support and unable to keep up with the factions it has. Adding a new faction would only make this worse. Honestly fixing the rules is their best bet but that requires and overhaul of magic to make that work.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
I hope they destroy everything about the world of warhammer including most, if not all the character. Put Warhammer fantasy on the shelf for a year or two, revamp their whole lines and do a massive relaunch of the "New Age". New rules, characters, lore etc...
Isn't there the possibility that GW was considering ending the WHFB line, but decided to go out with one final bang, first? (though if End Times is successful enough, it might get renewed. ...and possibly have jumped the shark at the same time, ironically enough, since by the time this is all over, there won't be much of the WHFB world left standing)
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
Fantasy is selling poorly and needs to be cut down in size and scope. Introducing new factions or expanding old ones is the opposite of what they want to do, from the looks of it. That's why "tearing up huge chunks" is their best option.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
I hope they destroy everything about the world of warhammer including most, if not all the character. Put Warhammer fantasy on the shelf for a year or two, revamp their whole lines and do a massive relaunch of the "New Age". New rules, characters, lore etc...
Serious question; if you dislike essentially everything about Fantasy, why not play one of the numerous other high-fantasy wargames on the market, rather than hoping for something that would ruin the game for loads of other people? I've never understood this mentality of "I don't like this thing, so rather than finding something I do like, I'll argue that/demand the whole thing should be changed into something I do like". If I don't like Football, I go and watch/play Rugby or Tennis instead, I don't sit there hoping the rules of Football will be completely changed to suit my own tastes.
Fantasy is selling poorly and needs to be cut down in size and scope. Introducing new factions or expanding old ones is the opposite of what they want to do, from the looks of it. That's why "tearing up huge chunks" is their best option.
No, Fantasy is selling poorly and GWbelieve it needs to be cut down in size and scope. Whether that belief, and thus their chosen solution, are valid depends entirely on whether they actually understand the reasons why Fantasy is selling poorly. They're making the exact same mistakes they made with Specialist Games; sales were down because of inconsistent model releases, poor event support, and failure to address evident flaws in the rules, they responded by further slowing and eventually altogether stopping model releases, cutting all event support, dropping all the fan-supported publications, and finally abandoning the rulesets altogether, which unsurprisingly failed to generate the big spike in sales they wanted. This time around they're trying a different solution by gutting the background material, releasing a few new-shiny large models, and compressing the army lists down, but once again I'd contend that they're solving a problem that didn't exist and failing to address the actual issues most people have with Fantasy; lack of support/new content(note that "new" does not have to mean "advancing the whole plot on a global, world-ending scale"), issues with the rules, and the abhorrent cost of fielding the large blocks of infantry the game revolves around. It doesn't matter how much of the background they cack all over, how many factions they delete/compress, or how small they make the focus of the future storyline; if they fail to address the actual barriers people have to them buying more Fantasy products, this whole End Times mess will amount to a temporary sales-spike due to the new models(which I freely admit are quite nice, Nagash aside), and then they'll be right back where they started, only this time having nuked the whole setting from orbit they'll be in an even worse position to actually build Fantasy back up to its past levels of popularity.
It definitely seems that that is the route they're going. I imagine 9th edition will inevitably get rid of the army books and rely on "factions." Less to update, easier to maintain, and yet much more difficult to balance.
I love the fluff aspect of the End Times as they've done a tremendous job with the story. I imagine even the insane alliance of the Elves will be met with well written explanations, just as everything else has.
It's a shame no models will hit the shelves alongside this book though. So far the models have been amazing, and with the quality of the Dark Elf / High Elf / Wood Elf models that have come out with their recent books, some End Times models for the allied Elves would be pretty great.
Can't wait to get my hands on the book, and to scour the local stores and internet for Magic cards...
End Times has generated a ton of interest, and interest is a good thing. What's not a good thing, however, is charging $60 for a 10-man box of Core troops. Until they stop doing stuff like that, sales will continue to flounder.
Buttlerthepug wrote: I love the fluff aspect of the End Times as they've done a tremendous job with the story. I imagine even the insane alliance of the Elves will be met with well written explanations, just as everything else has.
I'm not hopeful that they can think of any logical reason why Malekith, who is basically paranoia personified, will be willing to let a male mage who previously forced him to flee into the realm of Chaos live.
1) Malekith does not tolerate any potential threat to his supreme rule. Teclis, being a very powerful mage, is a threat.
2) The prophecy that Malekith basically lives by states that he will die at the hands of a male mage (hence why there are no official sorcerers in Naggaroth save Malekith himself).
I'm really concerned about what this will do to my Wood Elves fluff-wise. Apparently Ariel will be killed off or merged with Allariel to become the 'Avatar of Isha' which means Orion can't be reborn. Ariel and Orion were a MASSIVE part of what made Wood Elves unique as something other then ''Elves in the Wood'', we had the Avatars of Gods before End Times made it cool, and we had Athel Loren. Now, we are losing our Demi-Gods and not fighting in Athel Loren. What makes us unique now, other then Elves with bows that like trees? It just seems we are going to be rolled in to which ever book the fluff demands, this goes against the established Wood Elf fluff.
I hope i am wrong, i know the tag-line is 'Gods will Die' but not OUR GODS!
I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.
jprp wrote: I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.
To be frank, the inept, hamfisted mis-handling of their two core products and the squandered potential (along with a good dash of poorly disguised, moustache twirling greed) is at the heart of much criticism and dissatisfaction of GW.
jprp wrote: I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.
Both 40k and WFB suffer from extreme bloat in the product range and you'd want to introduce even more separate entities?
jprp wrote: I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.
Both 40k and WFB suffer from extreme bloat in the product range and you'd want to introduce even more separate entities?
Yeah, 12 additional historical/fantasy analogs supported the way that people expect armies to be supported would have been suicide. There's a reason companies don't listen to the internet sometimes.
jprp wrote: I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.
Both 40k and WFB suffer from extreme bloat in the product range and you'd want to introduce even more separate entities?
Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.
jprp wrote: Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.
Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?
I always said there should be
1 lord choice and you pick if you want a sword a bow or a axe
1 Troops choice you make them range or close combat
2 rare choices a cannon or something really unique like a guy with a flail
and 1 special choice a guy on a horse or wearing armour.
So I agree with whats been said add more armys while cutting more Races. Who wouldn't want arby or amazons like a woman with a sword or a guy in a tophat.... a whole army just like empire but with those features would really add alot.
I am loving end times so far tho I missed my gors/daemons and warriors fighting together for the dark gods. Also lets face it tombkings don't make sence..... in the book they wrapped people up poped organs out and then existed then nagash came along and found out how to raise the dead. Now all of a sudden the tomb king witches/sorcs can raise dead that they never learnt how to do?
I always said there should be
1 lord choice and you pick if you want a sword a bow or a axe
1 Troops choice you make them range or close combat
2 rare choices a cannon or something really unique like a guy with a flail and 1 special choice a guy on a horse or wearing armour.
So I agree with whats been said add more armys while cutting more Races. Who wouldn't want arby or amazons like a woman with a sword or a guy in a tophat.... a whole army just like empire but with those features would really add alot.
I...can't tell if you are joking or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From my end, what GW are currently doing with 40k has brought me back in to the game.
I'm definitely watching the End Times stuff with interest to see where WHFB ends up.
jprp wrote: Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.
Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?
I don't want them to sell me a new army book every few years period.
I want a decent book and the scope within the basic rules to create my own unique center pieces for friendly games like in early versions of the rules, i don't want to paint a unit only to find it drops out of the next book or needs all the base sizes changing every few years.
jprp wrote: Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.
Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?
I don't want them to sell me a new army book every few years period.
I want a decent book and the scope within the basic rules to create my own unique center pieces for friendly games like in early versions of the rules, i don't want to paint a unit only to find it drops out of the next book or needs all the base sizes changing every few years.
That is like the worse business view ever. So they sell you one book and make a unit that if you buy you can use"and will" in every game for years to come... They would be out of business in year 2.
jprp wrote: Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.
Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?
I don't want them to sell me a new army book every few years period.
I want a decent book and the scope within the basic rules to create my own unique center pieces for friendly games like in early versions of the rules, i don't want to paint a unit only to find it drops out of the next book or needs all the base sizes changing every few years.
That is like the worse business view ever. So they sell you one book and make a unit that if you buy you can use"and will" in every game for years to come... They would be out of business in year 2.
I strongly disagree, many races and units would lose so much character if you slimmed it down to the basics. Swordmasters of Hoeth became ''Elf with Great Weapon'' or Waywatchers became ''Scout Elf with Bow''. That is LotR style play and it bores me, armies have less character and it is almost impossible to theme an army. If you want realistic battles between pikemen and muskets i am sure their are different games to play, but Warhammer *Fantasy* Battles doesn't fit the bill.
I think the problem is with GW, not their design space per se. Some games probably could handle 10-12 races/factions with some good variety in their troops and such. GW is just not them, because they are not good at writing rules. (In the sense of "Wow, this company comes out with some great rules!")
If GW really did just want to produce a lot of models, they might be better off making a very generic game where you can build pretty much whatever you want, and sell you kits to build pretty much whatever you want. Some people want women with swords and I dunno, lizard riders? Cool, we make kits for that, and use these rules. Other people want samurai riding wolves? Cool, we make kits for that, and use pretty much the same rules, just some tweaks. That might be more GW's speed, rules wise. Right now they have the "ALL THE MODELS" thing down, but produce rules that don't seem to be good in any sense but the "makes people buy new stuff randomly" sense. I think making people buy new stuff could be achieved a better way, like new kits that get people excited. No reason all your models have to be for the same army, after all.
Which may be where this is going. Opening up armies to use units from across what had previously been multiple ranges.
Tie that in with the campaign/supplement based releases that GW seem to have started in 40k with the Tyranids/Shield of Baal thing and I think you have a much more dynamic release schedule that could appeal to many players at once.
Really, WHFBs problem is the entry fee is very high. Everyone has differing opinions on the rules. I've seen enough positive commentary to know that the current version isn't dramatically worse or better than any other depending on taste and expectation.
Yea, that's where my money is too: reduce the factions of races down to a few race centered books that share special rules and have different options, fluff justified by the fact half the world is gone and there is not enough population to support the specialization of before.
If it is tied to a tighter rule set and a lower model count requirement to play I could see it being really successful. Unfortunately, I kind of suspect that those two additional requirements are outside of GW's purview.
Wehrkind wrote: Yea, that's where my money is too: reduce the factions of races down to a few race centered books that share special rules and have different options, fluff justified by the fact half the world is gone and there is not enough population to support the specialization of before.
If it is tied to a tighter rule set and a lower model count requirement to play I could see it being really successful. Unfortunately, I kind of suspect that those two additional requirements are outside of GW's purview.
I reallt don't see it that pricey I just picked up glottkin the 3 icepeak guys and 2 boxes of blightknights and a few other models. They are only like 500$, which is really cheap and is no worse then a coffe a day.
... did that 500$ even buy you a usable army? It might have, I really don't know. I am just saying that WHFB seems to have a very steep buy in, especially if you accidentally buy troops that are functionally unusable in the current army book (which is a pretty real thing I think.)
Then again, I need my coffee a day. If you don't down 8-10 cups a day, maybe the math works out differently
Wehrkind wrote: Yea, that's where my money is too: reduce the factions of races down to a few race centered books that share special rules and have different options, fluff justified by the fact half the world is gone and there is not enough population to support the specialization of before.
If it is tied to a tighter rule set and a lower model count requirement to play I could see it being really successful. Unfortunately, I kind of suspect that those two additional requirements are outside of GW's purview.
I reallt don't see it that pricey I just picked up glottkin the 3 icepeak guys and 2 boxes of blightknights and a few other models. They are only like 500$, which is really cheap and is no worse then a coffe a day.
A coffee a day for a year?
Seriously, I suspect you may have a wildly different ideas of what constitutes cheap from many other posters, and I'd caution you to not frame it as a statement of fact as well, you may find yourself jumped on.
plastictrees wrote: I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.
plastictrees wrote: I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.
Yeah, you'd think...
I really do not think 300-400$ is a big deal I spend 250$ a month on cable and internet. Then something like 400$ on food atleast "2 boys never stop eating" So spending 200$ or 300$ on some toys doesn't seem that big of a deal. We are in a era where to buy a xbox thingy is close to 550$ then it is 80$ for a game lol. Followed by a 60+ remote. Then you don't even get to play with real friends just internet people.
plastictrees wrote: I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.
Yeah, you'd think...
I really do not think 300-400$ is a big deal I spend 250$ a month on cable and internet. Then something like 400$ on food atleast "2 boys never stop eating" So spending 200$ or 300$ on some toys doesn't seem that big of a deal. We are in a era where to buy a xbox thingy is close to 550$ then it is 80$ for a game lol. Followed by a 60+ remote. Then you don't even get to play with real friends just internet people.
agreed. I'm always amazed that people seems to deems miniatures as ridiculously expensive. I wonder in which world they live, cause in mine, whenever i go out to a bar, a freaking beer cost me almost 10$. When I buy clothes, a jeans and a few shirts will cost in the 200$. I'm happy to pay less than 50$ whenever I go in a restaurant.
Sure the price on some of them is absurd (especially the clam pack character) but for most of them, my ratio $/entertainment is higher than on pretty much anything else.
plastictrees wrote: I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.
Yeah, you'd think...
I really do not think 300-400$ is a big deal I spend 250$ a month on cable and internet. Then something like 400$ on food atleast "2 boys never stop eating" So spending 200$ or 300$ on some toys doesn't seem that big of a deal. We are in a era where to buy a xbox thingy is close to 550$ then it is 80$ for a game lol. Followed by a 60+ remote. Then you don't even get to play with real friends just internet people.
But now you're comparing part of our hobby to essential goods and an entirely different hobby.
That's not how this works, because compared to the hobby of collecting classic cars GW is cheap. Its also laughably more expensive than bird watching.
No, when comparing a company within a hobby you compare it to other companies within the same hobby, and GW falls flat on its face there. No game out there costs as much to get into as GW games. The example if the nurgle stuff for $500 makes this point very well, that can't possibly be a 2000 point army (average size) but for $500 I could get rules and average sized armies for Kings of War, Infinity and Dystopian Wars, probably with change to spare for an x wing starter too.
Agreed £20-30 for a model isn't a lot of money, but frequently with GW that money doesn't seem to offer people the value they are looking for.
But this is OT, and has been done to death in other more appropriate topics.
Good point, it is OT, and I'll stop talking about it as soon as I say this:
$22 for a plastic character isn't much but it looks terrible alongside a $12 metal character.
To me the problem with Warhammer is the dart board pricing they seem to use for some kits.
Black Ark Corsairs are $29.75 for 10 guys
Gor heard are $29.75 for 10 guys
Ork Boyz are $34.75 for 10 guys
High Elf spearmen are $42 for 16
Long Beards are $60 for 10!
Plastic Core wych elfs for $70 for 10!?!?!??!
And even when it feels like you are getting a good modle to dollar ratio, you need to many for a game it's mind numbing.
Way to take a dump on the whole Darkblade series, GW.
Not to mention that, according to the prophecy, Tyrion can't kill Malekith as he isn't a sorcerer. So Malekith will kill Tyrion then get backstabbed by Teclis, most likely.
Reminds me how the NJ state government planned to save Atlantic Citys failing casinos by building another casino (hint: it didnt work). Your "solutions" are fine if GW was looking to shake up the storyline, but they arent, theyre trying to consolidate product lines and reduce the scope of the game to make it more manageable and thus more supportable and more profitable. Simply put, Fantasy as it is now isnt making anywhere near as much $ as 40k and they cannot justify the expenditure and resources to support it tye same way, ergo the End Times solution.
jprp wrote: Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.
Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?
Nonsense, that depends entirely on how you do it. Given you mention it, getting rid of army books entirely would be a good start; core lists for all the main factions should be part of the rulebook, they should all be written at the same time and balanced against each other as much as possible - trying to make as much money as possible out of the rules which are only supposed to exist as an incentive to get people to purchase models(with much higher margins) is moronic. Issue periodic revisions of the core printed book with FAQ material included, sure, but the goal should be to develop a stable, accessible, basic set of rules and faction lists that provide new players with a reasonably balanced and self-contained starting point, and veteran players & GW as a company with a solid platform on which to expand. Then you keep people invested and buying new products using supplemental material and add-on games - once-yearly big shiny Forgeworld-style campaign books with minority factions or exploring "historical" conflicts, or introducing/expanding new systems like the Strike Forces rules in HH Book 3, with models produced in a low-cost material like spincast resin(not Finecast, evidently - GW need to hire on someone with actual experience), and more frequent bread & butter releases based on the Stormclaw model of a box with existing models, a special character, and a campaign book with variant army lists using existing units with additional flavour in the form of traits/artifacts/magic items etc, bookended with any new plastic models you've developed for the involved factions. Get stuck back in to the community with a Fanatic/Citadel Journal-esque section on the website for fan-created or staff-made-but-unofficial content, and accept the realities of modernity and use them to your advantage; running short of warehousing space/production time? Instead of arbitrarily cutting chunks of your range, talk to the community, tell them that Faction X or the models from Supplement Y aren't selling well and you may have to drop them, then offer to run a Kickstarter to cover the costs of continuing to produce/store them for another year up-front - either it succeeds and you gain goodwill(and sales) from people who liked those models with no risk to your own finances, or you insulate yourself against criticism by making it the community's decision whether the line stays or goes.
GW's current business model is only "required" because of GW's current business model - the choices they have made limit their possible responses to problems. They can make different choices which open up different solutions if they want to, but they don't, they're wedded to a strategy based on extracting as much money as they can based on as little effort as possible.
"Only the purest of heart will escape the web of fate."
Sounds like Teclis? Tyrion drawing Widowmaker is probably not a pure move, and Malekith is about as far from pure as you can get.
No way is it Teclis. He sacrificed Tyrion's daughter to ensure Nagash returned.
I'm thinking it is either the Everqueen or for a longshot, Alith Anar.
Teclis has always been a bitter shadow of Tyrion - just finished the recent William King novels about them and whilst Tyrion is a bit or arrogant so and so (like mos Elves) Teclis is always looking to be the one that embraces the dark side. Added to this is that he could have saved his brothers beloved daughter (he says this himself) and so almost certainly stopped Nagahs's resurecrection given the sheer power at his disposal - he took on Malkeith in a duel and beat him.....Mannfred would have been ashes and Arkhan likely the same.
chaos0xomega wrote: To be fair, Tyrion, and the High Elves as a whole, never really were good guys... If you actually read the fluff you see that they, much like the Dark and Wood Elves, are actually petty, brutal, and treachorous xenophobes
the Dwarves seem to be the only actual good guys (loyal to friends, loyal to their own kind, seeing the evils in magic, drink beer) good folk!
chaos0xomega wrote: To be fair, Tyrion, and the High Elves as a whole, never really were good guys... If you actually read the fluff you see that they, much like the Dark and Wood Elves, are actually petty, brutal, and treachorous xenophobes
the Dwarves seem to be the only actual good guys (loyal to friends, loyal to their own kind, seeing the evils in magic, drink beer) good folk!
Well them and Halflings
Quite. What epic role will the halflings of the Moot play in the end times?
chaos0xomega wrote: To be fair, Tyrion, and the High Elves as a whole, never really were good guys... If you actually read the fluff you see that they, much like the Dark and Wood Elves, are actually petty, brutal, and treachorous xenophobes
the Dwarves seem to be the only actual good guys (loyal to friends, loyal to their own kind, seeing the evils in magic, drink beer) good folk!
Well them and Halflings
Quite. What epic role will the halflings of the Moot play in the end times?
I got halflings for 2/3 of the games (hobbit army and ratling army) and sadly no halfling army... feth me!
Finally I will be able to get a hold of the books. I never had the spare cash when I needed it so was unable to swipe these up when they came out and was starting to lose hope. Now though.... Bueno! Either swiping all of them now or I know what's going on my christmas list.
I assume they will be just as big and in colour, literally just a softcover replacement?
Yes! Finally! I hope they're identical but just softcover. Might get the Nagash one, definitely will get the elf one. And yeah The Outpost is an awesome place to buy from in my experience. Them and Element Games I would recommend to anyone.
angelofvengeance wrote: Looks like Caledor might be going bye bye then.. Or possibly Malekith since he's pretty good at taming Black Dragons.
I think you are thinking of Imrik, the Dragonlord.
The Dragontamer is the first Caledor, the one who thought of and implemented the Great Vortex spell that banished the demons, while Aenarion died holding them back. If his great work is undone then the vortex is gone.
Please tell me that I'm not the only person here who has the dread feeling that the Dark Angels are suddenly going to drop pod into the Fantasy World and save the day
The way GW are going, it seems only a matter of time before we get Warhammer: Ultimate Unbound (trademark ) where you can use any GW model you want in the game.
Admittedly, it would be funny to see Abaddon having too fight off night goblin squig riders
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Please tell me that I'm not the only person here who has the dread feeling that the Dark Angels are suddenly going to drop pod into the Fantasy World and save the day
Dark Angels codex is so weak that they probably can't beat even a Fantasy army. :(
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Caledor isn't actually dead, right? He and his mages are 'trapped' in the vortex keeping it open. If the vortex were to fail, could he not return? And maybe HE could lead the remaining Elves?
As a Dark Elf player, I'd kinda rather see it be Malekith, though.
Sold out in EU store. Took it like 30 mins. Cards are still up though, but with 10 quid for P&P, that makes them the same price as from ebay resellers, lol.
hell, already?! Guess I'll be waiting for the softback then hehe.
Definately getting nagash, debating glottkin though, is it worth the buy as I'm not interested in nurgle but love the army list and end times story. Is it solely focussed on nurgle? Or is it a must buy before reading khaine?
It's a shame, they don't apply this softcover re-release to novels too. I mean, they could just release them all at the same time. And paperback Glottkin is scheduled for March. I'm scared to think about Malekith...Maybe August 2015, lol.
Megatronlolol wrote: It's a shame, they don't apply this softcover re-release to novels too. I mean, they could just release them all at the same time. And paperback Glottkin is scheduled for March. I'm scared to think about Malekith...Maybe August 2015, lol.
They do, and they put the novels into Omnibi as well. ET Glottkin SC and ET Nagash SC are on pre-order already on the GW site
They do, and they put the novels into Omnibi as well. ET Glottkin SC and ET Nagash SC are on pre-order already on the GW site
It's only campaign fluff and rules, not the Black Library novels. And they aren't even on pre-order, you can buy them right now. And the omnibus (of 1-3, as omnibuses are mostly comprised of 3 books) might even show up somewhere in 2016.
Grel777 wrote: Was sold out in less than 10 minutes. Wow.
I was able to order one, I got the confirmation mail but I still have the bad feeling that is not true....
If you have confirmation from GW it should be reliable. There should also be a very limited number of them available at the stores next week end. Got to be there early though.
They do, and they put the novels into Omnibi as well. ET Glottkin SC and ET Nagash SC are on pre-order already on the GW site
It's only campaign fluff and rules, not the Black Library novels. And they aren't even on pre-order, you can buy them right now. And the omnibus (of 1-3, as omnibuses are mostly comprised of 3 books) might even show up somewhere in 2016.
Stayed late at my local GW Store, there were 2 of us waiting plus the 2 store employees.
Two of us got the books and cards, by the time it was the employees turn (10 mins later) they were sold out and they both had to buy the Limited editions to get one and they don't get discount on the limited edition stuff.
Guess I am stuck paying aftermarket prices as I don't have an LGS I can get to. Less money for GW, more money for scalpers I guess.
I guess, softcover should be out in few weeks. Unless you have 1st and 2nd in Hardback formats and want a complete collection But the situation is getting better.. I've seen some people sell their Glottkins for RRP+postage, after softbacks were announced.
Im actually wondering about the finality of this End Times expansion in Warhammer...
Do you think that the aftermath of the End Times will be the current state of the Warhammer World when they release 9th edition? Or, do you think they will roll back the story advancement like they did with the Storm of Chaos stuff?
This could be GW contracting the Warhammer range and scope, combining the armies (this was rumored some time ago) that are allying now into the same books...ie, Consolidating Tomb Kings and VC, one book for elves, an alliance of men and dwarves, combined chaos, etc...
From the opening fluff in Nagash, it almost sounds like the Skaven and Chaos Daemons are about to overrun the Lizardmen in Lustria....wonder if they go away? I sure hope no one gets Squat-ed.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Caledor isn't actually dead, right? He and his mages are 'trapped' in the vortex keeping it open. If the vortex were to fail, could he not return? And maybe HE could lead the remaining Elves?
As far as I know you are correct. I think someone mentioned that there are three army lists in the book: One is the Malekith/Teclic alliance, the second one is the Tyrion with shiny new (old) sword/Khaine group, and the third one is still kept a secret. It could be related to Caledor and his grumpy old men. I always thought of the modern GW High Elves as the "You kids get off my lawn!" type of faction in the Warhammer universe so it would be interesting so see how the old generation would react after they get introduced back into the world.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
I hope they destroy everything about the world of warhammer including most, if not all the character. Put Warhammer fantasy on the shelf for a year or two, revamp their whole lines and do a massive relaunch of the "New Age". New rules, characters, lore etc...
Serious question; if you dislike essentially everything about Fantasy, why not play one of the numerous other high-fantasy wargames on the market, rather than hoping for something that would ruin the game for loads of other people? I've never understood this mentality of "I don't like this thing, so rather than finding something I do like, I'll argue that/demand the whole thing should be changed into something I do like". If I don't like Football, I go and watch/play Rugby or Tennis instead, I don't sit there hoping the rules of Football will be completely changed to suit my own tastes.
Fantasy is selling poorly and needs to be cut down in size and scope. Introducing new factions or expanding old ones is the opposite of what they want to do, from the looks of it. That's why "tearing up huge chunks" is their best option.
No, Fantasy is selling poorly and GWbelieve it needs to be cut down in size and scope. Whether that belief, and thus their chosen solution, are valid depends entirely on whether they actually understand the reasons why Fantasy is selling poorly. They're making the exact same mistakes they made with Specialist Games; sales were down because of inconsistent model releases, poor event support, and failure to address evident flaws in the rules, they responded by further slowing and eventually altogether stopping model releases, cutting all event support, dropping all the fan-supported publications, and finally abandoning the rulesets altogether, which unsurprisingly failed to generate the big spike in sales they wanted. This time around they're trying a different solution by gutting the background material, releasing a few new-shiny large models, and compressing the army lists down, but once again I'd contend that they're solving a problem that didn't exist and failing to address the actual issues most people have with Fantasy; lack of support/new content(note that "new" does not have to mean "advancing the whole plot on a global, world-ending scale"), issues with the rules, and the abhorrent cost of fielding the large blocks of infantry the game revolves around. It doesn't matter how much of the background they cack all over, how many factions they delete/compress, or how small they make the focus of the future storyline; if they fail to address the actual barriers people have to them buying more Fantasy products, this whole End Times mess will amount to a temporary sales-spike due to the new models(which I freely admit are quite nice, Nagash aside), and then they'll be right back where they started, only this time having nuked the whole setting from orbit they'll be in an even worse position to actually build Fantasy back up to its past levels of popularity.
The reason is not to gak on the people who still enjoy it. The reason is to breath new life into it, I grew up on WH:F. I grew up on Warhammer, with a collection of books, miniatures, and nearly every edition codex for WoC and Elves, but it has become stale. The world never advances the characters and models become old. Why would I watch the exact same episode of a tv show for 20 years over and over and over again and not want to see progression?.
Games Workshop has a chance to revamp and rethink how their game plays out. The End Times has been the best set of releases they have ever done for Fantasy. They are moving it into a new direction why not usher in a new era? My gaming group and I have abandoned the official Warhammer Fantasy rules for Kings of War.
40k has the same issue... it is always 40k... What would the 40k universe look like as 50k? Who would not want new characters, new lore, new life into their favorite universe? I say let those who are do not want anything to change keep playing with what you have and never look forward, it would be no different than what you do today.
Why are people like you so afraid of change? Do you not want to see a new balanced rulebook, new character and units?
I'm a little annoyed. They only allotted 2 of them to my local store....And the store owner ordered two more via pre-order but that's it and I'm not one of the first 4....
Hulksmash wrote: I'm a little annoyed. They only allotted 2 of them to my local store....And the store owner ordered two more via pre-order but that's it and I'm not one of the first 4....
Screw that guy ordering two.
I was at my shop before the graphic even finished changing, signed in and going to preorder--only to be told "Sorry, you cannot purchase this item".
He ordered two for his customers. He's losing money on them. It was 100% to take of his customers. Don't say screw a good store owner. Say screw GW for artificially creating a shortage...
Guess I'll be waiting at my GW on Saturday morning and hope they have one to pick up...I really want this one in hardback too. Since I've got Nagash and Glotkin.
Hulksmash wrote: He ordered two for his customers. He's losing money on them. It was 100% to take of his customers. Don't say screw a good store owner. Say screw GW for artificially creating a shortage...
Guess I'll be waiting at my GW on Saturday morning and hope they have one to pick up...I really want this one in hardback too. Since I've got Nagash and Glotkin.
GW doesnt create a virtual shortage... in the printing business, you need to order months before. I'm thinking for the End Time, they was supprise by the popularity...
Hulksmash wrote: He ordered two for his customers. He's losing money on them. It was 100% to take of his customers. Don't say screw a good store owner. Say screw GW for artificially creating a shortage...
Guess I'll be waiting at my GW on Saturday morning and hope they have one to pick up...I really want this one in hardback too. Since I've got Nagash and Glotkin.
GW doesnt create a virtual shortage... in the printing business, you need to order months before. I'm thinking for the End Time, they was supprise by the popularity...
I know a lot about how game books get printed and you're dead on... however... i would say that this is a habit of theirs. They did it with the Tau book, and i believe the eldar book. I'm sure they weren't quite expecting this level of enthusiasm for the fluff shakeup, but still, selling out as quickly as they are is also bizarre.
Hulksmash wrote: He ordered two for his customers. He's losing money on them. It was 100% to take of his customers. Don't say screw a good store owner. Say screw GW for artificially creating a shortage...
Guess I'll be waiting at my GW on Saturday morning and hope they have one to pick up...I really want this one in hardback too. Since I've got Nagash and Glotkin.
GW doesnt create a virtual shortage... in the printing business, you need to order months before. I'm thinking for the End Time, they was supprise by the popularity...
Is 3 months enough lead time to get another print run? Because they had that between Nagash and now Khaine...And it'll be even longer for books 4 and 5....
The reason is not to gak on the people who still enjoy it. The reason is to breath new life into it, I grew up on WH:F. I grew up on Warhammer, with a collection of books, miniatures, and nearly every edition codex for WoC and Elves, but it has become stale. The world never advances the characters and models become old. Why would I watch the exact same episode of a tv show for 20 years over and over and over again and not want to see progression?.
Games Workshop has a chance to revamp and rethink how their game plays out. The End Times has been the best set of releases they have ever done for Fantasy. They are moving it into a new direction why not usher in a new era? My gaming group and I have abandoned the official Warhammer Fantasy rules for Kings of War.
40k has the same issue... it is always 40k... What would the 40k universe look like as 50k? Who would not want new characters, new lore, new life into their favorite universe? I say let those who are do not want anything to change keep playing with what you have and never look forward, it would be no different than what you do today.
Why are people like you so afraid of change? Do you not want to see a new balanced rulebook, new character and units?
The best way to explain my trepidation about the "End Times" is, ironically, using your example.
You say 40K is always 40K...What would it look like as 50K?
We don't have to want 40K to stay 40K to not want GW to skip TEN THOUSAND YEARS.
The fact that the background has not had much advancement doesn't mean that it now needs to be radically changed in almost every aspect. We could want to see development and change without the death of gods, the resurrection of Nagash, the fall of multiple cities and countries, the alteration of magic, etc.
In fact, the very fact that GW has been unable to meaningfully advance the Warhammer world for the last 25 years would be a very strong argument for the position that they won't do a good job of it over a few months.
Not only this, but it also makes a lot of their own backlist increasingly irrelevant. Who cares about WFRP when everything in those books is no longer relevant. Who wants to buy ebooks of older BL novels, when no characters, locations, or situations in them are still relevant?
I might lament that the pasta served doesn't have enough tomato. That isn't an invitation to drown the remaining pasta in tomato paste.
I looked forward to development and change in Warhammer Fantasy. I didn't look for throwing out most of the setting and changing almost everything over the course of a few game years.
On top of all that, there is the insistent, obviously hyperbolic, branding of this as "the End Times". This is one of the worst habits of GW in regards to 40K, immediately displaced over to Fantasy. EVERYTHING important happens in the last year or two of the 41st millennium. Armageddon, Necron awakenings, Tau expansion, Tyranid incursions, Rynn's World disaster, Leviathan on course for Baal, Ork attacks on Knight worlds, etc. The game universe has a tremendous history and scope, but GW seems unable to do anything BEFORE or AFTER M40.999. That doesn't make me confident that the Fantasy End Times will advance the storyline.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
I hope they destroy everything about the world of warhammer including most, if not all the character. Put Warhammer fantasy on the shelf for a year or two, revamp their whole lines and do a massive relaunch of the "New Age". New rules, characters, lore etc...
Serious question; if you dislike essentially everything about Fantasy, why not play one of the numerous other high-fantasy wargames on the market, rather than hoping for something that would ruin the game for loads of other people? I've never understood this mentality of "I don't like this thing, so rather than finding something I do like, I'll argue that/demand the whole thing should be changed into something I do like". If I don't like Football, I go and watch/play Rugby or Tennis instead, I don't sit there hoping the rules of Football will be completely changed to suit my own tastes.
Fantasy is selling poorly and needs to be cut down in size and scope. Introducing new factions or expanding old ones is the opposite of what they want to do, from the looks of it. That's why "tearing up huge chunks" is their best option.
No, Fantasy is selling poorly and GWbelieve it needs to be cut down in size and scope. Whether that belief, and thus their chosen solution, are valid depends entirely on whether they actually understand the reasons why Fantasy is selling poorly. They're making the exact same mistakes they made with Specialist Games; sales were down because of inconsistent model releases, poor event support, and failure to address evident flaws in the rules, they responded by further slowing and eventually altogether stopping model releases, cutting all event support, dropping all the fan-supported publications, and finally abandoning the rulesets altogether, which unsurprisingly failed to generate the big spike in sales they wanted. This time around they're trying a different solution by gutting the background material, releasing a few new-shiny large models, and compressing the army lists down, but once again I'd contend that they're solving a problem that didn't exist and failing to address the actual issues most people have with Fantasy; lack of support/new content(note that "new" does not have to mean "advancing the whole plot on a global, world-ending scale"), issues with the rules, and the abhorrent cost of fielding the large blocks of infantry the game revolves around. It doesn't matter how much of the background they cack all over, how many factions they delete/compress, or how small they make the focus of the future storyline; if they fail to address the actual barriers people have to them buying more Fantasy products, this whole End Times mess will amount to a temporary sales-spike due to the new models(which I freely admit are quite nice, Nagash aside), and then they'll be right back where they started, only this time having nuked the whole setting from orbit they'll be in an even worse position to actually build Fantasy back up to its past levels of popularity.
The reason is not to gak on the people who still enjoy it. The reason is to breath new life into it, I grew up on WH:F. I grew up on Warhammer, with a collection of books, miniatures, and nearly every edition codex for WoC and Elves, but it has become stale. The world never advances the characters and models become old. Why would I watch the exact same episode of a tv show for 20 years over and over and over again and not want to see progression?.
Games Workshop has a chance to revamp and rethink how their game plays out. The End Times has been the best set of releases they have ever done for Fantasy. They are moving it into a new direction why not usher in a new era? My gaming group and I have abandoned the official Warhammer Fantasy rules for Kings of War.
40k has the same issue... it is always 40k... What would the 40k universe look like as 50k? Who would not want new characters, new lore, new life into their favorite universe? I say let those who are do not want anything to change keep playing with what you have and never look forward, it would be no different than what you do today.
Why are people like you so afraid of change? Do you not want to see a new balanced rulebook, new character and units?
A; As I've pointed out, repeatedly, there's no need to change the background so substantially in order to fix the actual problems with the game; rules and prices/unit size.
B; The reason why you can't grasp where I'm coming from, and why I find your perspective alien, is because we're evidently coming at this from completely different angles - you want, as you say, a TV show that feeds you new content on a schedule and rotates the cast of characters to create the illusion of change(because they just end up using the same character tropes and story themes over and over again with extremely minor variation anyway), I want a sandbox with very broadly defined but pretty much static limits in which I can tell my own stories - did you know I've run campaigns set in the future in both Fantasy and 40K? I have, because it's an interesting "what if?" subject, but I still think GW doing either is a crappy idea, because their idea will inevitably tread on a lot of people's toes by invalidating armies and stories players have put huge amounts of effort into, End Times being a perfect example; half the Old World gone, half the Empire gone, so what happens to people who liked those parts of the world, who were running campaigns set in them, armies based in or from them? Me and a few mates put a LOT of effort into our "future Fantasy" material, we essentially rewrote the whole Storm of Chaos debacle from scratch, now that work was completely pointless since half the character involved are dead, some of the cities where major plot points happened are gone, and entire nations which played a major role have been wiped out in a quarter page afterthought blurb. You may think that's all a price worth paying for such literary masterpieces as Super Saiyan Franz, I don't.
Who wants to buy ebooks of older BL novels, when no characters, locations, or situations in them are still relevant?
Following this logic the Horus Heresy novels should never have been able to sell. Just because the plot advanced doesn't mean people don't like reading the older books.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
I hope they destroy everything about the world of warhammer including most, if not all the character. Put Warhammer fantasy on the shelf for a year or two, revamp their whole lines and do a massive relaunch of the "New Age". New rules, characters, lore etc...
Serious question; if you dislike essentially everything about Fantasy, why not play one of the numerous other high-fantasy wargames on the market, rather than hoping for something that would ruin the game for loads of other people? I've never understood this mentality of "I don't like this thing, so rather than finding something I do like, I'll argue that/demand the whole thing should be changed into something I do like". If I don't like Football, I go and watch/play Rugby or Tennis instead, I don't sit there hoping the rules of Football will be completely changed to suit my own tastes.
Fantasy is selling poorly and needs to be cut down in size and scope. Introducing new factions or expanding old ones is the opposite of what they want to do, from the looks of it. That's why "tearing up huge chunks" is their best option.
No, Fantasy is selling poorly and GWbelieve it needs to be cut down in size and scope. Whether that belief, and thus their chosen solution, are valid depends entirely on whether they actually understand the reasons why Fantasy is selling poorly. They're making the exact same mistakes they made with Specialist Games; sales were down because of inconsistent model releases, poor event support, and failure to address evident flaws in the rules, they responded by further slowing and eventually altogether stopping model releases, cutting all event support, dropping all the fan-supported publications, and finally abandoning the rulesets altogether, which unsurprisingly failed to generate the big spike in sales they wanted. This time around they're trying a different solution by gutting the background material, releasing a few new-shiny large models, and compressing the army lists down, but once again I'd contend that they're solving a problem that didn't exist and failing to address the actual issues most people have with Fantasy; lack of support/new content(note that "new" does not have to mean "advancing the whole plot on a global, world-ending scale"), issues with the rules, and the abhorrent cost of fielding the large blocks of infantry the game revolves around. It doesn't matter how much of the background they cack all over, how many factions they delete/compress, or how small they make the focus of the future storyline; if they fail to address the actual barriers people have to them buying more Fantasy products, this whole End Times mess will amount to a temporary sales-spike due to the new models(which I freely admit are quite nice, Nagash aside), and then they'll be right back where they started, only this time having nuked the whole setting from orbit they'll be in an even worse position to actually build Fantasy back up to its past levels of popularity.
The reason is not to gak on the people who still enjoy it. The reason is to breath new life into it, I grew up on WH:F. I grew up on Warhammer, with a collection of books, miniatures, and nearly every edition codex for WoC and Elves, but it has become stale. The world never advances the characters and models become old. Why would I watch the exact same episode of a tv show for 20 years over and over and over again and not want to see progression?.
Games Workshop has a chance to revamp and rethink how their game plays out. The End Times has been the best set of releases they have ever done for Fantasy. They are moving it into a new direction why not usher in a new era? My gaming group and I have abandoned the official Warhammer Fantasy rules for Kings of War.
40k has the same issue... it is always 40k... What would the 40k universe look like as 50k? Who would not want new characters, new lore, new life into their favorite universe? I say let those who are do not want anything to change keep playing with what you have and never look forward, it would be no different than what you do today.
Why are people like you so afraid of change? Do you not want to see a new balanced rulebook, new character and units?
A; As I've pointed out, repeatedly, there's no need to change the background so substantially in order to fix the actual problems with the game; rules and prices/unit size.
B; The reason why you can't grasp where I'm coming from, and why I find your perspective alien, is because we're evidently coming at this from completely different angles - you want, as you say, a TV show that feeds you new content on a schedule and rotates the cast of characters to create the illusion of change(because they just end up using the same character tropes and story themes over and over again with extremely minor variation anyway), I want a sandbox with very broadly defined but pretty much static limits in which I can tell my own stories - did you know I've run campaigns set in the future in both Fantasy and 40K? I have, because it's an interesting "what if?" subject, but I still think GW doing either is a crappy idea, because their idea will inevitably tread on a lot of people's toes by invalidating armies and stories players have put huge amounts of effort into, End Times being a perfect example; half the Old World gone, half the Empire gone, so what happens to people who liked those parts of the world, who were running campaigns set in them, armies based in or from them? Me and a few mates put a LOT of effort into our "future Fantasy" material, we essentially rewrote the whole Storm of Chaos debacle from scratch, now that work was completely pointless since half the character involved are dead, some of the cities where major plot points happened are gone, and entire nations which played a major role have been wiped out in a quarter page afterthought blurb. You may think that's all a price worth paying for such literary masterpieces as Super Saiyan Franz, I don't.
If your group is already playing in your own fanon for the setting, why does it matter what GW's "official" version is? It doesn't invalidate what you've done for your group, it just means that it doesn't fit into the mainstream of the multiverse that is Fantasy. We've already seen this happen in official products before(WHFRP 1st ed and WHFB 4th had vastly different storylines going on, including, IIRC, Karl Franz being dead and another emperor ascending the throne).
I've seen this argument before in RPGs that have evolving storylines and it didn't make sense then either. If you want it to be a setting, use it as asetting and to hell with the "official" story.
Pretty much agree with everything you're saying, Plat. Boggles the mind that you can put that much effort into something unoffical and then feel its ruined by official stuff going in a different direction.
But like Yodhrin, I am kind of miffed that my Karl Franz, Ludwig Schwarzhelm, Kurt Helborg love triangle erotic fanfiction is now invalidated by the death of one of the characters and another became a demigod. Thanks Tom Kirby, thanks alot. I was almost done and ready to share it with the world and now its in the trash bin with Yodhrins alternate Storm of Chaos story.
Don't blame me for Endtimes hardbacks selling out quicker than hotcakes.
I freely admit to buying more than one copy of space hulk but when it comes to end times, I'm innocent - I haven't bought anything.
It's puzzling to why the softbacks are almost the same price as the hardbacks. Other companies would handle it differently, but this is gw, I suppose.
I agree with people's concerns about the direction of WFB. The game needed freshening up and some of the dead wood needed swept away. Yeah, I'm talking about Grey Seer Thanquol
but evolution is preferable to revolution. GW seem to think it's a good idea to set fire to the house to keep you warm. Sure, it'll work for a while...
The reason is not to gak on the people who still enjoy it. The reason is to breath new life into it, I grew up on WH:F. I grew up on Warhammer, with a collection of books, miniatures, and nearly every edition codex for WoC and Elves, but it has become stale. The world never advances the characters and models become old. Why would I watch the exact same episode of a tv show for 20 years over and over and over again and not want to see progression?.
Games Workshop has a chance to revamp and rethink how their game plays out. The End Times has been the best set of releases they have ever done for Fantasy. They are moving it into a new direction why not usher in a new era? My gaming group and I have abandoned the official Warhammer Fantasy rules for Kings of War.
40k has the same issue... it is always 40k... What would the 40k universe look like as 50k? Who would not want new characters, new lore, new life into their favorite universe? I say let those who are do not want anything to change keep playing with what you have and never look forward, it would be no different than what you do today.
Why are people like you so afraid of change? Do you not want to see a new balanced rulebook, new character and units?
The best way to explain my trepidation about the "End Times" is, ironically, using your example.
You say 40K is always 40K...What would it look like as 50K?
We don't have to want 40K to stay 40K to not want GW to skip TEN THOUSAND YEARS.
The fact that the background has not had much advancement doesn't mean that it now needs to be radically changed in almost every aspect. We could want to see development and change without the death of gods, the resurrection of Nagash, the fall of multiple cities and countries, the alteration of magic, etc.
In fact, the very fact that GW has been unable to meaningfully advance the Warhammer world for the last 25 years would be a very strong argument for the position that they won't do a good job of it over a few months.
Not only this, but it also makes a lot of their own backlist increasingly irrelevant. Who cares about WFRP when everything in those books is no longer relevant. Who wants to buy ebooks of older BL novels, when no characters, locations, or situations in them are still relevant?
I might lament that the pasta served doesn't have enough tomato. That isn't an invitation to drown the remaining pasta in tomato paste.
I looked forward to development and change in Warhammer Fantasy. I didn't look for throwing out most of the setting and changing almost everything over the course of a few game years.
On top of all that, there is the insistent, obviously hyperbolic, branding of this as "the End Times". This is one of the worst habits of GW in regards to 40K, immediately displaced over to Fantasy. EVERYTHING important happens in the last year or two of the 41st millennium. Armageddon, Necron awakenings, Tau expansion, Tyranid incursions, Rynn's World disaster, Leviathan on course for Baal, Ork attacks on Knight worlds, etc. The game universe has a tremendous history and scope, but GW seems unable to do anything BEFORE or AFTER M40.999. That doesn't make me confident that the Fantasy End Times will advance the storyline.
Very well put.
The only thing that I can say to interject is, objectively, at this point the game has changed very little. Everything in the 'End Times' books is optional; 'End Times' is a game expansion (Save the 50% Lords & Heros, which was added through the Errats - the only thing to be added). If one does not like it one dies not have to play it.
We will not know for sure what direction the game is going until 9th is released.
That having been said, if a person enjoys playing 8th there is nothing necessitating them to move on to 9th. Those who feel the need to switch are mostly tournament players and, in my experience, usually those who care the least about the story.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm a little annoyed. They only allotted 2 of them to my local store....And the store owner ordered two more via pre-order but that's it and I'm not one of the first 4....
I'm way beyond annoyed. I'm furious, and for all the good it'll do (none) emailed GW to let them know.
Heck, the local GW store manager called US corporate about it, he had so many people trying and failing to pre-order one through his store, he lost about $500 in sales.
There were four or five people planning on ordering the standard edition at my local GW, and as far as I know the only person getting a copy is the guy who orders limited editions every time there is a new book.
So come next Saturday I have to get there early to hopefully get one of maybe two copies. Glottkin had ONE copy on the shelf, so I'm thinking two might be overly generous in my guesses...
nels1031 wrote: Pretty much agree with everything you're saying, Plat. Boggles the mind that you can put that much effort into something unoffical and then feel its ruined by official stuff going in a different direction.
But like Yodhrin, I am kind of miffed that my Karl Franz, Ludwig Schwarzhelm, Kurt Helborg love triangle erotic fanfiction is now invalidated by the death of one of the characters and another became a demigod. Thanks Tom Kirby, thanks alot. I was almost done and ready to share it with the world and now its in the trash bin with Yodhrins alternate Storm of Chaos story.
Nice to see that your first thought isn't to argue the point but act like a smartarse; does that come naturally, or do you practice?
I like the Warhammer World, I work very hard to make sure any new material I add fits the themes and aesthetics of the existing world and fiction, and I work even harder to avoid contradicting the official material - when I run a campaign set in the world's present or past, I don't just decide this character or that one is still alive when the fiction says they're dead, I don't change the outcome of battles we know the outcome of, the only reason we rewrote the SoC material is GW rolled it back and pretended it didn't happen, so we saw it as fair game. Now almost everything in that campaign setting is in conflict with the new material, so I either rerwrite the whole thing again to fit the new material, which I'm not particularly motivated to do since GW have wiped out the majority of the bits of the Old World I find interesting, or I leave it as it is, in which case I'm not running a campaign set in the Warhammer World anymore am I. I don't get why this is so difficult for a few people here to grasp.
Hulksmash wrote: Because adding a faction to a line on life support is a smart business decision....
Personally I'm loving the End Times stuff. I realize rules wise we're probably going to see most of this end up in 9th so the rule portion of these books is meh. But the actual fluff books are awesome and enjoyable.
Now as long as someone doesn't wake up from a dream I'm a happy camper. If someone wakes up from a dream people need to let me know which page it happens on so I can just stop reading right up to it
It wouldn't be on life support. It's been 3 or 4 years since I had a GW army, but I can guarantee that if a Cathy or Nippon force came out, I'd happily throw down a wad of banknotes for it. And I suspect many others would as well.
Agree with you about the dream idea. I've got an uneasy feeling that GW are going to do a Dallas on the end times.
By god I hope they do, they've already killed off/destroyed about a third of my favourite parts of the setting and there's still two whole books to go by all accounts. If they end up with a Warhammer World without Kislev, Tilea, Estalia; half of the Empire(including most of the interesting cities) gone, half of Bretonnia gone, loads of interesting characters dead, and a lot of factions eliminated/combined together, it's not even actually the Warhammer World any more is it. It's particularly galling that they went with the gak-hurling chimp strategy when, as you point out, half of the existing world was almost completely unexplored in terms of the game, and barely fleshed out in terms of the fluff - Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes, the Southlands, bringing back Dogs of War, doing multiple Imperial Armour/Stormclaw-style campaigns with tons of detail and a narrower focus, doing Heresy-style historical campaigns - there were tons of ways for them to refresh and expand the setting without tearing up huge chunks of it.
I hope they destroy everything about the world of warhammer including most, if not all the character. Put Warhammer fantasy on the shelf for a year or two, revamp their whole lines and do a massive relaunch of the "New Age". New rules, characters, lore etc...
Serious question; if you dislike essentially everything about Fantasy, why not play one of the numerous other high-fantasy wargames on the market, rather than hoping for something that would ruin the game for loads of other people? I've never understood this mentality of "I don't like this thing, so rather than finding something I do like, I'll argue that/demand the whole thing should be changed into something I do like". If I don't like Football, I go and watch/play Rugby or Tennis instead, I don't sit there hoping the rules of Football will be completely changed to suit my own tastes.
Fantasy is selling poorly and needs to be cut down in size and scope. Introducing new factions or expanding old ones is the opposite of what they want to do, from the looks of it. That's why "tearing up huge chunks" is their best option.
No, Fantasy is selling poorly and GWbelieve it needs to be cut down in size and scope. Whether that belief, and thus their chosen solution, are valid depends entirely on whether they actually understand the reasons why Fantasy is selling poorly. They're making the exact same mistakes they made with Specialist Games; sales were down because of inconsistent model releases, poor event support, and failure to address evident flaws in the rules, they responded by further slowing and eventually altogether stopping model releases, cutting all event support, dropping all the fan-supported publications, and finally abandoning the rulesets altogether, which unsurprisingly failed to generate the big spike in sales they wanted. This time around they're trying a different solution by gutting the background material, releasing a few new-shiny large models, and compressing the army lists down, but once again I'd contend that they're solving a problem that didn't exist and failing to address the actual issues most people have with Fantasy; lack of support/new content(note that "new" does not have to mean "advancing the whole plot on a global, world-ending scale"), issues with the rules, and the abhorrent cost of fielding the large blocks of infantry the game revolves around. It doesn't matter how much of the background they cack all over, how many factions they delete/compress, or how small they make the focus of the future storyline; if they fail to address the actual barriers people have to them buying more Fantasy products, this whole End Times mess will amount to a temporary sales-spike due to the new models(which I freely admit are quite nice, Nagash aside), and then they'll be right back where they started, only this time having nuked the whole setting from orbit they'll be in an even worse position to actually build Fantasy back up to its past levels of popularity.
The reason is not to gak on the people who still enjoy it. The reason is to breath new life into it, I grew up on WH:F. I grew up on Warhammer, with a collection of books, miniatures, and nearly every edition codex for WoC and Elves, but it has become stale. The world never advances the characters and models become old. Why would I watch the exact same episode of a tv show for 20 years over and over and over again and not want to see progression?.
Games Workshop has a chance to revamp and rethink how their game plays out. The End Times has been the best set of releases they have ever done for Fantasy. They are moving it into a new direction why not usher in a new era? My gaming group and I have abandoned the official Warhammer Fantasy rules for Kings of War.
40k has the same issue... it is always 40k... What would the 40k universe look like as 50k? Who would not want new characters, new lore, new life into their favorite universe? I say let those who are do not want anything to change keep playing with what you have and never look forward, it would be no different than what you do today.
Why are people like you so afraid of change? Do you not want to see a new balanced rulebook, new character and units?
A; As I've pointed out, repeatedly, there's no need to change the background so substantially in order to fix the actual problems with the game; rules and prices/unit size.
B; The reason why you can't grasp where I'm coming from, and why I find your perspective alien, is because we're evidently coming at this from completely different angles - you want, as you say, a TV show that feeds you new content on a schedule and rotates the cast of characters to create the illusion of change(because they just end up using the same character tropes and story themes over and over again with extremely minor variation anyway), I want a sandbox with very broadly defined but pretty much static limits in which I can tell my own stories - did you know I've run campaigns set in the future in both Fantasy and 40K? I have, because it's an interesting "what if?" subject, but I still think GW doing either is a crappy idea, because their idea will inevitably tread on a lot of people's toes by invalidating armies and stories players have put huge amounts of effort into, End Times being a perfect example; half the Old World gone, half the Empire gone, so what happens to people who liked those parts of the world, who were running campaigns set in them, armies based in or from them? Me and a few mates put a LOT of effort into our "future Fantasy" material, we essentially rewrote the whole Storm of Chaos debacle from scratch, now that work was completely pointless since half the character involved are dead, some of the cities where major plot points happened are gone, and entire nations which played a major role have been wiped out in a quarter page afterthought blurb. You may think that's all a price worth paying for such literary masterpieces as Super Saiyan Franz, I don't.
Just because GW decided to shake up their story and timeline, doesn't mean you have to. You can ignore the End Times story to your hearts' content. Tell the stories you want to, set them whenever you want to. Tell a story where the Slaan are all secretly Chaos-worshipers, who cares? No one is stopping you from telling the story you want.
As a for instance, my Empire army's background is that of a Border Prince who, through a large donation to the Imperial coffers, became a largely autonomous province and ally of the Empire. My general isn't an Elector, but he gets to call himself Count. Even through the End Times, I'll still keep the same background. I'll just need to read up on the new fluff to figure out exactly how it's going to work into the new world. I'm certainly not going to run around calling my general the Emperor or anything, but a minor tweak is no trouble.
I really think people dumping on the End Times from a purely fluff perspective are making a mountain out of molehill.
I have to imagine that the cross-section of people both running alternate future campaigns that they have put a significant amount of work into AND are highly bothered by the End Times fluff changes is... minuscule to say the least. I think catering to such a tiny group would be a pretty terrible idea. If you are one of those people, you are probably driven and creative enough to adapt to it. Considering the sales of the End Times books and the general response and excitement, it seems they made the right decisions so far, and personally I'm more excited by the Warhammer world than I have been in a very long time. I'm certainly starting a Fantasy army when 9th comes around.
Mymearan wrote: I have to imagine that the cross-section of people both running alternate future campaigns that they have put a significant amount of work into AND are highly bothered by the End Times fluff changes is... minuscule to say the least. I think catering to such a tiny group would be a pretty terrible idea. If you are one of those people, you are probably driven and creative enough to adapt to it. Considering the sales of the End Times books and the general response and excitement, it seems they made the right decisions so far, and personally I'm more excited by the Warhammer world than I have been in a very long time. I'm certainly starting a Fantasy army when 9th comes around.
Agreed.
The fact that the book sold out in 8 minutes and the largest percentage of complaints are "I didn't get one" demonstrates the net positive excitement that "End Times" has generated.
GW focuses a lot of effort on attracting new players. End times seems to be for those who have been playing for a while.
The negative impact that End Times is having on the WH community is this sales strategy of having a limited number. It is causing 'want'. When you create 'want' but do not deliver, for what ever reason, the follow-up reaction ranges from dissatisfaction to anger. For a brand, any brand, to go this route is kind of foolish from a consumers perspective as it could be pecived "I don't care". Sure it moves stock fast but it seriously diminishes the respect for the brand, and a brand is a relationship forged when you have a quality product and people who are happy to buy it.
Other companies who have employed this sales strategy usually do a second and third run of the product to satiate the hunger they cause.
In this context I don't know if the paperback versions of End Times will be enough for those most effected.
I have to wonder if maybe these "limited numbers" are caused by the simple fact that they think WHFB is dead.
Books are one of the few things that GW outsources to a third party at this point(they don't print them in-house), with tools and paints being the other. The lead time on getting books printed is probably give or take a few months.
Khaine is the first one to sell out in that obscenely low time.
I'm enjoying the End Times. Our gaming group plays a lot of different games but these books have brought WFB back to the table. The reason is that we all like story progression and these books are scratching that itch.
I hope that these books are leading into a new era for the game and will become canon. We were frustrated with Storm of Magic and would like to see the world evolve beyond simply finding new monsters to add to the army books.
Even if it doesn't happen, there is nothing stopping my group from trading the materail whatever way we like.
My goal is to enjoy the game and the time I get to spend with my friends. It's my hobby and I have too much in my regular life to worry about
Just noticed this while on the GW website, did you know that if you scroll your mouse wheel it changes the size of the magnifying glass when looking at sprue pictures?
Slightly less annoyed at that particular feature change. Didn't think it warranted its own thread.
Kanluwen wrote: I have to wonder if maybe these "limited numbers" are caused by the simple fact that they think WHFB is dead.
Books are one of the few things that GW outsources to a third party at this point(they don't print them in-house), with tools and paints being the other. The lead time on getting books printed is probably give or take a few months.
Khaine is the first one to sell out in that obscenely low time.
I think far from it. It is more of a cash grab if anything.
The way I see it working is this:
- GW knows WH is popular so they dream up something everyone will want; something people will not want to go without. In this case a big time story changer.
-They make a limited run of the book to wet the appetite. Desire to possess this new limited edition product triggers a response in people that drives 'want'. This ensures that when the product comes out they will sell all of them quickly, thus recouping all the money initially invested to make the product in the first place. At the same time they are making a handsome profit. This can also make those who are lucky enough to get the limited edition product feel privileged. A very superficial boost to the ego allowing those who have it to enjoy the product all the more.
- if they are realy planning ahead then they can use the profit of these limited edition product to fund the second wave of releases (I.e. Paperback version) so when the product that everyone can get is released it will be all profit. Because there are more people left hungy than sated they will sell a lot more.
Genius really. All that is needed to be successful is for people to act predictably and...
So is WH dead? Far from it. It is a plum quite ripe for the picking and GW is in harvest mode.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's puzzling to why the softbacks are almost the same price as the hardbacks. Other companies would handle it differently, but this is gw, I suppose.
Why only 10 less for softback versions?
1. GW considers more of the value is in the contents than the binding. The binding is worth about $10 to GW (codices went up about $15 with the switch to hardcover and full color interiors, so the math is similar)
2. It's likely that the softbacks were planned for in the future, but demand for hardbacks was so high they had to push them out sooner, with less lead time, meaning more expensive print run.
3. If they dropped the price too much, it would devalue the hardbacks, and there would be tons of protests from people who bought the hardbacks- A 75$ hardback for $65 in softback, fine, the hardback is nicer. a 75$ hardback or say a $50 dollar softback, why am I paying 50% more for the same rules and fluff when the guys who waited got it so much cheaper?
MajorWesJanson wrote: If they dropped the price too much, it would devalue the hardbacks, and there would be tons of protests from people who bought the hardbacks- A 75$ hardback for $65 in softback, fine, the hardback is nicer. a 75$ hardback or say a $50 dollar softback, why am I paying 50% more for the same rules and fluff when the guys who waited got it so much cheaper?
You're paying more because it's still a fancier version than what everyone else will get. That's the entire idea behind limited edition stuff, it's the same exact content that comes in a prettier, more expensive package. That's it. If that bothers you then why are you buying any of GW's limited edition content in the first place?
Despite the fact that these books don't overwrite the army books.
Despite the fact that there were several characters left out of Nagash(Konrad and Isabella von Carstein immediately spring to mind) that aren't cut out of the army book.
Malus has no model right now though and what's more, he's a minor lore figure at best.
Despite the fact that these books don't overwrite the army books.
Despite the fact that there were several characters left out of Nagash(Konrad and Isabella von Carstein immediately spring to mind) that aren't cut out of the army book.
Malus has no model right now though and what's more, he's a minor lore figure at best.
End Times doesnt directly overwrite anything, buuuuut its a good indicator of what the next edition holds, say goodbye to distinct books for undead, chaos, and elves, and say hello to larger compilation volumes.
Despite the fact that these books don't overwrite the army books.
Despite the fact that there were several characters left out of Nagash(Konrad and Isabella von Carstein immediately spring to mind) that aren't cut out of the army book.
Malus has no model right now though and what's more, he's a minor lore figure at best.
End Times doesnt directly overwrite anything, buuuuut its a good indicator of what the next edition holds, say goodbye to distinct books for undead, chaos, and elves, and say hello to larger compilation volumes.
That's what people said about 40k when the Black Templars got rolled into Space Marines.
pities2004 wrote: Time to convert a good phoenix king version of Malekith, now dwarfs are really not going to trust elves.
Hmmm, Malekith was pretty damn respected by the Dwarves in his early years as conqueror of the new world and emissary to the dwarves, themselves.
Reminding them of that, and reinforcing the belief that the whole war of the beard thing was due to High Elves hubris and he could quite easily get back in with them, I reckon.
Appealing to the Dwarves proud history and reminding them of how things could have been and so on.
Malekith is a very cunning politician, I think he has a better chance of reuniting the Elves and Dwarves than any other Elf.
pities2004 wrote: Time to convert a good phoenix king version of Malekith, now dwarfs are really not going to trust elves.
Hmmm, Malekith was pretty damn respected by the Dwarves in his early years as conqueror of the new world and emissary to the dwarves, themselves.
Reminding them of that, and reinforcing the belief that the whole war of the beard thing was due to High Elves hubris and he could quite easily get back in with them, I reckon.
Appealing to the Dwarves proud history and reminding them of how things could have been and so on.
Malekith is a very cunning politician, I think he has a better chance of reuniting the Elves and Dwarves than any other Elf.
I guess I could see that, I mean Malekith started the war of the beard pretty much and got away with it, maybe the dwarfs will give him the phoenix crown
SilverDevilfish wrote: A Murder of Crows and Meteoric Ironclad have the same casting value. I... what? Actually A Murder of Crows in general...
Their was mention about some of the spells remaining and play and not being able to be dispelled. If murder of crows means that the target unit is taking hits every turn for the rest of the game, it would make it kinda awesome actually.
SilverDevilfish wrote: A Murder of Crows and Meteoric Ironclad have the same casting value. I... what? Actually A Murder of Crows in general...
Their was mention about some of the spells remaining and play and not being able to be dispelled. If murder of crows means that the target unit is taking hits every turn for the rest of the game, it would make it kinda awesome actually.
Hope so, as otherwise the spell is a bit crap for it's casting value.
Despite the fact that these books don't overwrite the army books. Despite the fact that there were several characters left out of Nagash(Konrad and Isabella von Carstein immediately spring to mind) that aren't cut out of the army book.
Malus has no model right now though and what's more, he's a minor lore figure at best.
Any war involving Khaine that doesn't include Malus, who is:
1) The chosen of Khaine who is destined to bring bloody ruin across the world in Khaine's name, thanks to his retrieval of the Warpsword (and many of the higher ranked Witch Elf Hags in Har Ganeth know this)
2) The Witch Kings personal champion (the title was never removed from him after the battle at the Tower of Ghrond)
3) Such a bloodthirsty, greedy and treacherous son of a that he couldn't resist taking part
is pretty much tantamount to him being killed off.
Also, Malekith as Phoenix King has a sword that has Flaming Attacks. Tyrion as the Avatar of Khaine has the fireborn rule which grants him a 2+ ward against flaming attacks. So it's pretty much forced into the game that Malekith as Phoenix King cannot kill Tyrion. Great design there, GW. I mean it's not as if Tyrion already had a higher initiative (granting re-rolls to hit), weapon skill (so he's hitting on 3s) and auto wounds with no armour saves which also circumvents the armour of midnights ward save.
Malus is a bit of a tack-on to the whole Elven drama in WFB. His absence doesn't really make a difference as far as the main theme is concerned.
Sure, it might suck for the lore inclined, given the wealth of written material the character received, but GW never had a cohesive plan for the settings in terms of storytelling. Buyer beware.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also, Malekith as Phoenix King has a sword that has Flaming Attacks. Tyrion as the Avatar of Khaine has the fireborn rule which grants him a 2+ ward against flaming attacks. So it's pretty much forced into the game that Malekith as Phoenix King cannot kill Tyrion. Great design there, GW. I mean it's not as if Tyrion already had a higher initiative (granting re-rolls to hit), weapon skill (so he's hitting on 3s) and auto wounds with no armour saves which also circumvents the armour of midnights ward save.
Actually if both models have ASF, then neither gets to re-roll. But yeah, Tyrion is a bit bs for a guy that can hide in a cavalry unit.
Despite the fact that these books don't overwrite the army books.
Despite the fact that there were several characters left out of Nagash(Konrad and Isabella von Carstein immediately spring to mind) that aren't cut out of the army book.
Malus has no model right now though and what's more, he's a minor lore figure at best.
Any war involving Khaine that doesn't include Malus, who is:
1) The chosen of Khaine who is destined to bring bloody ruin across the world in Khaine's name, thanks to his retrieval of the Warpsword (and many of the higher ranked Witch Elf Hags in Har Ganeth know this)
2) The Witch Kings personal champion (the title was never removed from him after the battle at the Tower of Ghrond)
3) Such a bloodthirsty, greedy and treacherous son of a that he couldn't resist taking part
is pretty much tantamount to him being killed off.
Also, Malekith as Phoenix King has a sword that has Flaming Attacks. Tyrion as the Avatar of Khaine has the fireborn rule which grants him a 2+ ward against flaming attacks. So it's pretty much forced into the game that Malekith as Phoenix King cannot kill Tyrion. Great design there, GW. I mean it's not as if Tyrion already had a higher initiative (granting re-rolls to hit), weapon skill (so he's hitting on 3s) and auto wounds with no armour saves which also circumvents the armour of midnights ward save.
What you say is true, however we know from WD that Alith Anar shoots an arrow that sways the outcome. seeing as Anar is listed as being on Malektihs side in the Khaine army lists, i'm guessing he shoots Tyrion, allowing Malekith to overcome his foe and assume the throne and title "Eternity King".
Kinda bummed that Malus Darkblade has been killed off. Arguably one of Dan Abnett's best written characters IMO. Was hoping they'd update his model in the new DE release this year but alas, no joy there.
There is no guarantee that because a character has been "killed off" in the End Times books that he's gone for good. 40k has a long tradition of characters who are dead in the lore continuing to get profiles.
angelofvengeance wrote: Kinda bummed that Malus Darkblade has been killed off. Arguably one of Dan Abnett's best written characters IMO. Was hoping they'd update his model in the new DE release this year but alas, no joy there.
Same here, but not to be.
I'll still be fielding him in friendly games. Malus will still shed my enemies blood from time to time.
There is no guarantee that because a character has been "killed off" in the End Times books that he's gone for good. 40k has a long tradition of characters who are dead in the lore continuing to get profiles.
Spoiler:
Erm.. he gets obliterated by T'zarkan bursting out of his body? Pretty sure it'll be pretty impossible to come back from that lol.
I'm pretty sure Kan meant that units that were dead in the current timeline have gotten profiles. Though less for 40k now Fantasy has always had a few like Grom and various others over the years.
The skaven spells that were added seem pretty interesting (as a skaven play mwahaha)
Great Red Pox (25+)
Targets all units within 24" (friend or foe)
On a 4+ units are effected (5+ for clan pestilence)
Toughness test on every model or be removed no armour saves allowed
Pit of the Underworld (20+)
Place marker. Roll D6 every consecutive phase after casting on a roll of 5+ the pit opens (large template). Every model touched by the template must make initiative test or be removed (saves allowed I assume?)
I am liking the great red pox spell but not the pit one. The pit one is okay but I feel like a large blast template will be easy to avoid and 5+ for it to come into play is meh.
This has me worried for the future of the Dreaded Thirteenth though. Casts on the same as the Great Red Pox but no saves of any kind plus you get clanrats outta the deal......I fear for the future!
I agree but dreaded thirteen is worse because no saves of any kind allowed casts of 25+ (the same) and its 4d6 guys just die. If they all die the unit turns into clanrats!
I geuss the great red pox affects any kind of unit though unlike the thirteenth which only effects infantry
), whilst Malekith and his mother lurk in the background plotting their return.
Bueno! Either swiping all of them now or I know what's going on my christmas list.
hell, already?! Guess I'll be waiting for the softback then hehe.
