Battlefront hasn't given the money from the kickstarter to Dust Studios - it appears lawyers are now involved and the word 'fraud' is being bandied around. There is an email posted on the campaign comments from Dust Studios. A raging gak storm has now taken hold as people realise their money has been spent on rock and roll and drugs.
In a nutshell, Battlefront took the money and skipped out on Dust Studios and all of the Kickstarter backers. Now lawyers are involved and there are a lot of PISSED backers. I truly hope the outcome is Battlefront's bankruptcy and dismantling.
Not a whole lot to go on if you ask me. I mean, who was the one who first posted this? Someone from Studio Dust? Or someone of the "he said, she said, so this is the story" variety?
BrookM wrote: Not a whole lot to go on if you ask me. I mean, who was the one who first posted this? Someone from Studio Dust? Or someone of the "he said, she said, so this is the story" variety?
Original comment that outed Battlefront over this came via Paolo himself.
This was posted to the Kickstarter comment section:
"Well Ladies and Gentlemen. I wrote to Dust Studios about the situation and the answer I received is not very encouraging. This is the letter just as I copied it from my email.
What is happening is mostly unfortunate. We are truly sorry for that.
Dust Studio is only the manufacturer of the Babylon KS as you might already know.
We are suffering the same stress here, we have been producing all the models but we are not getting paid by Battlefront.
The only thing that we can do to protect our interests is to hold on the products until we get paid.
This of course means that we keep you waiting for them.
At the same time l want to suggest you to check with your Credit Card Company (I assume you paid by CC) .
They should be able to get your money back to you.
l suggest this because we are afraid to be victims of the same attempt of fraud here.
Our lawyers are working on the case, there will be an announcement as soon as they are ready.
Best regards,
Dust Studio"
Not to mention that threads over at dust-tactics.com forums are being locked with no response, and a handful of "all is well" updates are being posted to the main page.
There has to be more going on behind the scenes. Battlefront may be greedy (owning from their start as IIRC ex-GW employees using that gold standard) in certain things but I really doubt they'd set up a kickstarter for a brand they just picked up only to defraud all those customers.
Maybe Battlefront is actually in trouble behind the scenes and the cash is (at least temporarily gone).. perhaps a big outstanding tax bill?
perhaps Dust promised to mop up all the old FFG stock (which has got to be killing BF in terms of selling kits) but instead it's ended up at the discounters
Maybe Dust Studios has not done something relating to the handover of the IP from FFG to BF
or the stuff they've produced so far does not meet the standards BF want (but since it's been made Dust expect to be paid anyway)
Perhaps one or the other is trying to change financial arrangements (BF wants a higher distributor diacount?, Dust wants lower discount or more royalties) after the fact and both are playing hard ball
but whatever happens I suspect it's going to kill both companies and associated brands
Saw mention of this over the past weekend. Digging through things at that time, it seemed as though BF had not yet received all of Wave 1 with the ships having fairly recently arrived in NZ/Aus and likely just this week clearing customs and arriving at warehouses. There also seemed to be some mention of certain items for Wave 1 having shortfalls which were then on back-order, so it could be that they're trying to get one big order in rather than tons of little ones.
However, having tried to source FoW miniatures, it could be that the the person in charge of this sort of thing at BF isn't particularly good at their job. I had a store I ordered from bump up one of the blisters I ordered because after two weeks of specifically ordering the single vehicle he did not receive it in his order. In the end he gave me a different, more expensive blister that included that vehicle as well, which was awesome on that store's part but kind of an epic fail by BF. We're also discussing a company that did a 50% sale of dice and tokens and didn't remove items that weren't actually available at all from the store and allowed people to order them.
What this points to is that BF's internal logistics are insanely bad, and this could be an outgrowth of that simple business failing rather than anything malevolent. That said, pending more information it's always good to keep malice as an option just in case there's something going on. Just offering other plausible theories is all, and Hanlon's razor and all that.
I backed this and am still yet to receive any product. How I understand the situation:
The Babylon KS was a pre-order system. The vast majority of the designs (sans 2 units that were unlocked) were produced ahead of time in fact most were iirc on display at Gencon the year previous. Dust Models already had production supposedly in full swing pre-launch and BF were left to run the KS. Their combined commitment was an extremely fast turnaround once the KS closed with shipping (totally inclusive) scheduled for the end of August last year. Initially their were questions as The Warstore was advertising pre-orders cheaper than the KS and some backers became unhappy with the "packaged structure" of their locked in "early bird" pledges. This resulted in cheaper pricing and a commitment that would allow backers to substitute basically the included printed rule type items/gaming aids for credit once the manager was available. They also implemented a system whereby retail stores would be able to participate outside of the KS mechanic and this would contribute to the stretch goal unlocks.
A survey was sent out after close to gauge what the core aspect of peoples pledges were as a modified Pledge Manager was needed for the swap mechanic. However, the initial August deadline pretty much expired before the Manager went live and there were further problems as backers filled them out incorrectly, probably due to language differences and dodgy "swaps". Like most other KS there was also an option to add more to your pledge which obviously put numbers required further out of whack.
At some point later it was decided to "wave" out the shipments and this is where it started to get even sketchier. Why would this be needed if BF had accurate quotas from the manager and DM had been producing for months? It has become clear there was a massive difference between what was shipped and what was actually required. Its a proven fact that EU,US and NZ backers are no longer receiving Babylon items in their orders and this is my expectation as well considering our shipment was left till last. Was this because DM couldn't keep up with production or because BF have supplied incorrect manager data that fell way short? Maybe it wasn't supplied in a timely manner..... Which begs the question why even bother shipping such vastly incomplete orders? There's now no commitment to a "wave 2" shipment date nor whether this will settle ALL outstanding issues considering especially BF apparently haven't told DM what's exactly required. Do they even know? Who's picking the orders and collecting the data on "out of stock" items? DM have now publicly stated as well they will not release any more product until they are paid. Is this outstanding payment meaning BF never transferred funds? So many unanswered questions....
My gut feeling on all this is that BF are mostly to blame compounded by an obvious difficulty communicating with backers and Dust Models themselves.
-The amount of time it took to organise the Pledge Manager threw shipping estimates out the window .Most likely it was due to the swap mechanic that was introduced.
-They refuse to stick to their commitment of weekly updates to advise how this is being resolved. In past weeks they have logged on, obviously not been happy with the complaints/messages from concerned backers and decided to take the easy way out. One update post Christmas was completely dismissive of the situation (arrogant...).
-They refuse to answer emails regarding mis-picks, missing items and general concerns how this will be resolved. There's also been "buck passing" as to who is responsible ie "we don't want to know about it".
-They do not reply to concerns on their forums and have chosen to "lock out" threads rather than respond.
-Dust Models, their partner in this, has publicly outed them on more than one occasion regarding production targets and monies owed. This is BF's latest update and only communicated response to the growing issue.:
We'd love to be able to give you an update about Wave 2 this week, but unfortunately there's nothing concrete we can tell you yet. We understand the delays are making some people nervous, but please try not to worry. This drawn-out process, with the uncertainty that it entails, is not what any of us wanted, but we'll get there in the end - nobody is going to be left in the lurch.
Well feth. I've been told my pledge was cancelled at my request due to the long delay, but I knew something was up since it's been 2 months and I have yet to receive a refund. Every time I email they keep kicking the can down the road and say it will happen "soon."
Just hope I can get my $200 back before this devolves into a legal gak-storm.
This sucks for Dust Studios, but they screwed around for a long time with the change from FFG to BF, and then BF just seemed to sit on things and communicate about as little as they could get away with.
The drama grows: Paolo Parente requesting invoices of Kickstarter backers from the backers themselves so they can figure out what to produce. Apparently Battlefront didn't even provide them with this info in the first place! Wow.
Seems a bit extreme that one side is saying Battlefront has "spent on rock and roll and drugs", hoping for their dismantling, and throwing up a whole hashtag campaign against Battlefront.
It's in Battlefront's best interest to address this issue to the public as soon as possible, and then maybe people could make a more informed decision.
It's actually owned by some rich Russian that came from a big family fishery business.
So, I can't see why they would do something like this. Battlefront is not actually hurting for money, neither the owner or the company.
They have a factory in Malaysia, for example, and have just started making a lot of injection plastic, which requires a lot of money up front for the steel molds.
That said, there are still plenty of either shady, grey area, or straight illegal but hard to spot reasons why a company might hold onto the money even if they didn't need it.
There may be some part of the contract that allows BF to do this, and they're making a cut throat business decision.
On the other hand, Dust Studios isn't really that well known of a quantity, they could be responsible for not fulfilling some contractual aspect and were hoping to just gloss over it. Meanwhile BF has to stay quiet so they can build a legal case. There may be some leftover obligations to FF that they didn't disclose and BF had to pay for.
If you have to run a kickstarter for something it usually means you're not really flush with the money needed to release a big game in the first place. After FT failed with two different publishers/distributors, you have to wonder how much they have in the bank.
Whew, I'm glad I'm only missing the Sisters and the free upgrade pack. My army deal and the two heavy walkers I ordered have been with me for a while already, so I'm not totally screwed if this was a less then honest affair.
lord_blackfang wrote: This is the same Battlefront that makes FoW? Hands out free rulebooks when they release a new edition? That one?
I don't know if they've done that in a couple of editions, though I might be wrong. They're also the guys who apparently feel that they "created the IP" that is WWII gaming.
Google the following:
If Flames Of War is not creating our own IP I dont know what is and I know that Pete, Phil, Wayne, Evan and the guys would disagree as they have spent the last ten years of their lives dedicated to creating a hobby that is the heart of our business and completely unique
Yes they did the free rulebook deal with the latest edition, assuming that you had the hardback of the previous one. I think if you had the smaller, free one from the previous (second) edition then you would have had to buy the hardback this time round.
Also did some very good, half-price deals with a lot of the campaign books over the past 6 months.
katfude wrote: The drama grows: Paolo Parente requesting invoices of Kickstarter backers from the backers themselves so they can figure out what to produce. Apparently Battlefront didn't even provide them with this info in the first place! Wow.
What a mess. It always amazes me how long it takes companies to address PR nightmares like this. I hope whoever is responsible gets the appropriate share of the blame. My gut tells me it is Battlefront. But we'll see how the cards fall.
Normally, the first thing a lawyer tells their client is to keep quiet. So we may never know the real story of what happened. Does anyone know why DS stopped working with FFG?
Crimson Devil wrote: Normally, the first thing a lawyer tells their client is to keep quiet. So we may never know the real story of what happened. Does anyone know why DS stopped working with FFG?
My guess is that is has to do with their buyout/merger announced as well as them focusing more on internal properties as well as the biggest money maker they have (their Star Wars license). To be honest, I'm not sure FFG will end up renewing their 40k license when it comes up next as it seems like they're wrapping up all but one of the RPGs. In any case, I agree that BF is likely keeping quiet for their own benefit at the advice of their legal counsel and to the detriment of the players who paid them. Didn't they post a few months back that the Dust license is only a small portion of their total business and in effect they're doing it more as a labor of love or somesuch? They may have decided that it just isn't worth it after all with the terms that FFG apparently has to exclusively sell what they have in stock first before BF gets a crack at it.
Admittedly, I know basically nothing about the situation, but from what I read here it has a lot of contract dispute hallmarks.
And, well, sucks for backers. Good luck getting your credit card company to give you a charge back. Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
By using Kickstarter, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions, which specify that you are not buying a finished product and that there are no guarantees.
Maybe your state's AG would be interested in bringing a fraud case against Kickstarter on the basis that the project itself violated Kickstarter's terms and conditions. But backers don't really have any recourse.
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
By using Kickstarter, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions, which specify that you are not buying a finished product and that there are no guarantees.
Maybe your state's AG would be interested in bringing a fraud case against Kickstarter on the basis that the project itself violated Kickstarter's terms and conditions. But backers don't really have any recourse.
Sorry, that's not correct. By using Kickstarter, you are agreeing to the Project Owner's terms and conditions, not just Kickstarter's T&C. That varies project to project, but in the case of the Dust project, it's clear that you are entering into a contract where you are paying to receive product (pre-ordering). The project owner, in this case listed as John Matthews, is bound to the agreement of the project that he set up between him and the backers. So hand-waving and saying "you're get what you paid for, because this is a Kickstarter, they owe you nothing" is incorrect.
In terms of legal recourse, it gets thorny of course. First it's not totally clear who you are entering into a contract with - John Matthews is listed, but so is Dust Studios. Secondly, this is across country lines, making it a lot more difficult. Thirdly, the amount any individual backer has paid is peanuts to launching a lawsuit. So even though a backer legally should get what they paid for, or their money back, realistically would find it difficult and not worth it to do so.
No, Kickstarter isn't at fault, and suing them for a particular project won't get you anywhere. However, Kickstarter does have legal responsibility to not become a haven for scammers and must legally take steps to protect backers. If too many "failed" projects turn up, Kickstarter will legally be in hot water.
I am a bit suprised at this coming from Battlefront, but then again BF is the same company that makes you pay upfront for product and then takes anywhere from 3-6 months to deliver said new product.
Both house subscriptions were delayed time and time again, poor quality product was sent out and then there were months of delays on getting replacements.
Every sale they have blows up in their face because they do not know how to run their company, hell half of their online store is on back order for months if not years. Forget buying any of their terrain they show on their web store, it has been out of print for years.
On the one hand, when it comes to business vs. business matters, my suspicions always lie on the company that takes a dispute public first. Usually such relationships are governed by contracts and breaching that is a legal matter. Every attorney I know of says "never discuss legal matters openly" and with good reason; it's not just unprofessional it gives the other side ammunition against you. Thus it seems that trying to portray one's company as being "the good guys" is more an attempt to curry public favor to force an agreement that they're not entitled to or to gloss over some breach of contract they know they're guilty of because the public (i.e. - customers) have no idea what's going on behind the scenes but wield the economic power of being the people who buy things; influence plus ignorance makes them excellent patsies. If you know you're not going to win on a contract law basis, why not employ that tactic? Generally in my limited experience that's how things seem to go down, for instance Tony Reidy and Wargames Factory; Tony fired the first public salvos and I think we can now safely say which side was closer to the truth on that one.
On the other hand, it is BattleFront and it is, at its core, a logistical issue which you can find a litany of failures by the company. Nothing seems particularly out of the ordinary for one of their operations, so it's entirely likely that they've done something bone-headed and are trying to sort it out frantically. With an unreliable partner, the action of trying to collect information on what needs to be manufactured seems more in favor of Dust Studios, but it's hard to say that completely exonerates them. It could really go either way based on the information I've been able to uncover, but I'm not particularly well-connected either.
While not a KS backer, as someone with a continuing interest in FoW I would like to know if BF has done something illegitimate as obviously that influences my purchasing habits. Hopefully more concrete information will be forthcoming so we can tell which end is up.
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
By using Kickstarter, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions, which specify that you are not buying a finished product and that there are no guarantees.
Maybe your state's AG would be interested in bringing a fraud case against Kickstarter on the basis that the project itself violated Kickstarter's terms and conditions. But backers don't really have any recourse.
Sorry, that's not correct. By using Kickstarter, you are agreeing to the Project Owner's terms and conditions, not just Kickstarter's T&C. That varies project to project, but in the case of the Dust project, it's clear that you are entering into a contract where you are paying to receive product (pre-ordering). The project owner, in this case listed as John Matthews, is bound to the agreement of the project that he set up between him and the backers. So hand-waving and saying "you're get what you paid for, because this is a Kickstarter, they owe you nothing" is incorrect.
In terms of legal recourse, it gets thorny of course. First it's not totally clear who you are entering into a contract with - John Matthews is listed, but so is Dust Studios. Secondly, this is across country lines, making it a lot more difficult. Thirdly, the amount any individual backer has paid is peanuts to launching a lawsuit. So even though a backer legally should get what they paid for, or their money back, realistically would find it difficult and not worth it to do so.
No, Kickstarter isn't at fault, and suing them for a particular project won't get you anywhere. However, Kickstarter does have legal responsibility to not become a haven for scammers and must legally take steps to protect backers. If too many "failed" projects turn up, Kickstarter will legally be in hot water.
That's exactly the point. There's no practical recourse. The contract, such as it is, is muddled at best. You can argue till you are blue in the face that the contract terms that both backer and project creator agree to when using Kickstarter is modified by what the project creator says during the campaign, but that aint getting you very far.
The best recourse you've got there is that the Kickstarter contract now specifies that material misrepresentation on the part of the project creator constitutes breach.
But from a 10,000' perspective, because this is a KS project, and only because this is a KS project, your rights as a consumer are horrendously tainted. If Battlefront had done a pre-order through its website, you would have relatively unambiguous recourse.
That's the point. You get what you pay for with Kickstarter.
But from a 10,000' perspective, because this is a KS project, and only because this is a KS project, your rights as a consumer are horrendously tainted. If Battlefront had done a pre-order through its website, you would have relatively unambiguous recourse.
That's the point. You get what you pay for with Kickstarter.
And what recourse would you have as a consumer if you had done a pre-order through Battlefront's website? It would be the same. Again, legally you would be due, but if they took your money and kept it you could do very little unless you wanted to spend 100x what was owed in legal fees and travel costs.
A webstore, just like a kickstarter project is essentially a social contract. There are laws that regulate these to help protect consumers, but in order to uphold them the consumer has to act on them. If Battlefront was a US business, in either case, you could work through small claims court or the Attorney General of the state they resided in, but since they're international it would make things a lot harder.
It looks like they do have a business branch based in the USA.
from:http://www.flamesofwar.com/?tabid=88
Battlefront Miniatures North America
500 Principio Parkway West
Suite 100
North East, Maryland 21901
So if/when it comes to it backers can work through the state of Maryland. The interesting thing is that looking through the online secretary of state records, I don't see them as a listed business entity. I don't know specifics on Maryland law or how up to date their records are, but I sure would hope Battlefront is registered with the state or else they may have a lot more to worry about than just this Kickstarter.
And what recourse would you have as a consumer if you had done a pre-order through Battlefront's website? It would be the same. Again, legally you would be due, but if they took your money and kept it you could do very little unless you wanted to spend 100x what was owed in legal fees and travel costs.
A webstore, just like a kickstarter project is essentially a social contract. There are laws that regulate these to help protect consumers, but in order to uphold them the consumer has to act on them. If Battlefront was a US business, in either case, you could work through small claims court or the Attorney General of the state they resided in, but since they're international it would make things a lot harder.
VISA Chargeback or PayPal dispute. I've done both with various merchants that needed it. Didn't need a lawyer at all. You see, very, very large and powerful companies like VISA and PayPal like it when we spend our money using their systems. They want to encourage us consumers to spend. If it was unprotected pot luck when making a purchase, then people would not make such purchases in anywhere near the numbers that we do. They make it as safe as possible so that we spend as much as possible.
carboncopy wrote: It looks like they do have a business branch based in the USA.
from:http://www.flamesofwar.com/?tabid=88
Battlefront Miniatures North America
500 Principio Parkway West
Suite 100
North East, Maryland 21901
So if/when it comes to it backers can work through the state of Maryland. The interesting thing is that looking through the online secretary of state records, I don't see them as a listed business entity. I don't know specifics on Maryland law or how up to date their records are, but I sure would hope Battlefront is registered with the state or else they may have a lot more to worry about than just this Kickstarter.
BF just moved to Maryland in the last year or so. They used to be located in Delaware. They may still be registered as a Delaware business.
More than DUST settles on Operation:Babylon - Paolo gives an exclusive interview on the Kickstarter
For many Dust Tactics, World of Dust & Dust Studios will be household names coming as they do from a long established game world all spun from the mind of Paolo Parente, the father of Dust.
And as such you may have also heard there are a few rumblings about the Battlefront Kickstarter Operation: Babylon, and its lack of appearing, via the post, in the houses of those who backed the Kickstarter campaign.
This is n interview with DUST creator, Paolo Parente
Dust is an alternate history Board Game/Wargame and soon to be online game and RPG which for many years has been inspiring modellers and gamers with its diverse and almost familiar walking tanks, nazi zombies, cyborg gorillas and a host of other WWII alternate nasties fuelled and inspired form the power of the mineral VK and the remnants of a crashed alien ship.
It's the same World War Two, it just evolved and shows no sign of ending.
In its most recent form Dust IP came into the care of Battlefront Games, high hopes of expanded lines and better distribution. The future looked very bright indeed, so much so when the Kickstarter was announced the boards literally 'lit up' with the voice and enthusiasm of the legions of old and new fans.
Operation Babylon, as it was called, was going to be a glowing success.
On June 19 2014 that success was confirmed for the 1,475 backers who are pledged $469,313 of hard earned cash well over the $50,000 target sought for the project.
Since then the talk and enthusiasm in all the forums and chat groups has slowly slipped from ecstatic excitement to near civil war as the fan base slowly fractures in the face of more and more apparently unanswered questions from Battlefront, the pledge management team who over saw the financials of the project.
Currently the casual viewer will see 'the silent concerned' who say little but are clicking like on various posts.
The 'be calm its okay, stay positives' who are focused on getting on with the game and prepared for the long wait without getting to distressed.
Finally what I'd call the 'vocals' who range from reasonable questioning to the troll like stirring one expects among any large Internet based groups. Arguments, confusion, allegations of all sorts seem to fly daily now and can't be ignored any longer.
Then on the 30th January 2015, the Grand Master, Paolo himself, who till now has been a voice of reason and support throws his cap in the ring and declares enough is enough.
Paolo today posts banners and avatars that call out for questions to be answered, he says he demands clarity and transparency form Battlefront, and importantly asks......where's the money?
So it is on this very public canvas that Wee Gamers felt it was only right to ask the questions to the only people who should know. that is the very publicly active father of Dust, Paolo, and the current Guardians of the Franchise, Battlefront Games.
Tonight we hear from Paolo, who has been quite open and eager to talk.
Paolo first of all thanks for taking the time at this seemingly stressful period to talk to Wee Gamers.
Let's get the ball rolling.
Paolo , what on earth is going on with Dust, and the Kickstarter? Where do things currently stand? Our understanding of these projects is you pitch your project, you set your goal. You raise your money - succeed or fail , and if you succeed you make your toys and deliver to your backers? What's gone wrong as you understand it?
Paolo:
"The public action that Dust Studio, with me as standard bearer, is taking has one goal only: push Battlefront to act with due diligence by honouring the Babylon Kickstarter Contract that they wrote themselves, pay the overdue fee to Dust Studio for manufacturing the goods and deliver them to the backers.
l attach here the contract and you are authorized to publish it.
Basically it reads that Battlefront is obliged to pay Dust Studio first. And in the case Dust Studio cannot manufacture the goods then Dust Studio is accountable.
Now, how the hell are we supposed to deliver something that has not been ordered or paid for???
Up to today we have not received the P.O. for the so called "Babylon Wave 2" or a full list of the items to be delivered. Dust Studio will be happy to deliver the goods as soon as Purchase Order is issued and paid for.
The production on the Wave 2 items is going on. We estimate that they will be ready by the end of March 2015.
We are manufacturing items based on the last received information dated November 2014 plus a small percentage extra, just in case the orders get bigger.
We know that Battlefront have been collecting orders and payments until January 2015.
We wait for Battlefront to honor their side of the deal."
Well, there you go. Paolo's side.
We have sent an email to Battlefront to see if they wish to give their side of the story.
The public action that Dust Studio, with me (Paolo Parente) as standard bearer, is taking has one goal only: push Battlefront to act with due diligence by honouring the Babylon Kickstarter Contract that they wrote themselves, pay the overdue fee to Dust Studio for manufacturing the goods and deliver them to the backers.
l attach here the contract and you are authorized to publish it.
Basically it reads that Battlefront is obliged to pay Dust Studio first. And in the case Dust Studio cannot manufacture the goods then Dust Studio is accountable.
Now, how the hell are we supposed to deliver something that has not been ordered or paid for???
Up to today we have not received the P.O. for the so called "Babylon Wave 2" or a full list of the items to be delivered. Dust Studio will be happy to deliver the goods as soon as Purchase Order is issued and paid for.
The production on the Wave 2 items is going on. We estimate that they will be ready by the end of March 2015.
We are manufacturing items based on the last received information dated November 2014 plus a small percentage extra, just in case the orders get bigger.
We know that Battlefront have been collecting orders and payments until January 2015.
We wait for Battlefront to honor their side of the deal
Some of you are aware of the recent allegations playing out on Facebook, and are eager for an official statement from Battlefront clarifying our position. For those of you who weren't aware of the unpleasantness, we apologise for having to bring it to your attention now.
The rumours and speculation on social media regarding the current state of the Dust Operation Babylon Kickstarter are becoming out of control. We would prefer to keep ugly disagreements out of the public eye, but we cannot remain silent any longer without giving the impression that we are hiding something. However, we will not be engaging in a trial by social media. Facebook is not the place to professionally resolve issues. Especially not when we are still optimistic that the situation can still easily be salvaged through negotiation in good faith.
There are two sides to every story, and a significant dispute remains regarding the parties’ obligations. Battlefront has repeatedly sought professional mediation with Dust Studio as a way to resolve this dispute fairly, which is the usual way to resolve contractual disagreements like this. We are still actively pursuing this.
We still expect a satisfactory outcome, but it will come a lot sooner if Dust Studio stop trying to manipulate backers through social media, with a lot of inaccurate and incomplete statements, and instead sit down and resolve their problems in a professional manner. If you really do stand with Dust Studio, the best thing you can do is to encourage them to agree to neutral professional mediation.
I'm sure it is hard for Dust Studios to remain "professional" like Battlefront when the former has to shoulder all the costs of production and the latter has all the money collected. Also, this game is just (according to BF) just a drop in the bucket for them whereas it is the bread and butter of DS.
Sign up to demand an answer. Battlefront is in breach of the Kickstarter terms and conditions by not telling backers why their pledges are not being honored.
Looks to me like BF is trying to renegotiate the terms of the contract and Dust is only interested in maintaining the original contract, as they should. I think Dust is being much more upfront in order to save their reputation. Who knows but either way this makes it very hard for people to trust kickstarters.
The BF statement is very "incensed guilty party" to me.
Reads like something Defiance would have posted.
Asking backers to pressure Dust Studios to re-negotiate terms (which is pretty clearly what they are going for here) is pretty crazy.
The timing ties in to the drop in oil prices, I'm wondering if BF ownership are having some issues. Someone earlier mentioned they are Russian, is that true?
I am a little surprised to discover this situation. The Dust Babylon KS was the first KS I backed and did so only after looking into Dust Studios background, history, and principal individuals involved (I was already aware of Battlefront's history and past products). Satisfied that this KS had a better than usual chance of success I backed it to the tune of $1050.
As things developed there were the fairly common issues with getting the pledge manager up and running but I was satisfied with regular updates that had been distributed through KS and when the pledge manager was finally ready I increased my order. I had come to realize there were items I wanted beyond what I had pledged for and a friend who had been following the Dust Babylon KS but didn't have funds at the time asked if he could add an Army Bundle to my order. At this point my pledge and shipping came to just under $1400.
Again there were regular updates through KS. As seems to be the norm with projects that greatly exceed their intial goal the production delays followed and the updates about when to expect things were clear, confident, and business like and as promised in updates the first portion of my order that should have shipped in Sept-Oct arrived on my door step in Canada in mid-Dec as promised in an update. At which point I got a pleasant surprise, I had been expecting that even with shipping out of a US address to Canada that I would have to pay import duties on my products (I was expecting $500-$600). Battlefront appears to have their distribution organised in such a manner that this is not the case. The only issue I had was there wasn't any indication of what my intial pledge order had been but just a shipping document that indicated which products were in my shipment and which were back ordered.
So I dug around and found that I had actually kept a copy of my pledge manager pages as a document on my computer and it matched the shipping document sent with my first order. As I didn't have any major concerns about my pledge I had let looking for my copy of the pledge order until after Christmas and as I had come to expect regular updates didn't give me any cause for concern. Two days after I found my copy of what I ordered I received an email that confirmed my order and which products had been backordered. The next week I received an email confirming the shipment of the second part of my order from UPS. It is scheduled to arrive Tuesday February 3. From everything I can see the shipment is an appropriate size for what I have yet to receive (2 largish boxes with an appropriate weight) and so I am still not concerned.
I don't doubt that there is some kind of contractual dispute brewing between Dust Studios and Battlefront. I only became aware of it through the update sent to all Backers of the project, and it took some digging to find this thread about it. From where I stand it looks like Dust Studios is trying to muster public support without providing really clear details in an official statement but by leaking rumours which then get twisted and speculated upon.
I'm still not concerned, as far as I can tell Battlefront has been nothing but profesional and business like in its actions and communications with me (the one small misstep being an over looked document with my first shipment). I'll know for sure on Tuesday when the rest of my order arrives (or not).
I certainly am not going to advise anyone to start talking about the sky falling at this point.
plastictrees wrote: The timing ties in to the drop in oil prices, I'm wondering if BF ownership are having some issues. Someone earlier mentioned they are Russian, is that true?
As I said before, this has all the hallmarks of a basic contract dispute.
I think it is important to note that the document published by Parente is obviously not the whole contract.
What is probably going on is something akin to this hypothetical scenario:
Battlefront has withheld all or part of the payment on some contractual basis, i.e. within Battlefront's interpretation of the facts and the contract terms the company believes it has the right/duty/obligation to withhold payment of some kind. Dust Studio believes otherwise and feels that withholding of payment is a violation of the contract terms. Dust has done work and feels it is owed payment. Battlefront has received less than it had expected from Dust and is unwilling to pay until those concerns are addressed/redressed.
Stuff like this happens all of the time, and frankly neutral arbitration is often a productive method of resolving disputes like this. I would not be surprised if the contract itself included dispute resolution procedures.
In any case, there is quite clearly a dispute. It seems pretty clear that the dispute primarily concerns some form of payment for goods/services. Disputes like this happen all of the time.
That said, the way this seems to be going at the moment is a great way to make sure that the dispute will drag out over several years of contentious litigation. There could be a bad actor here, and that bad actor could be either Battlefront or Dust. It is more likely that fault of some kind or another can be laid at the feet of both Battlefront and Dust. If there is a bad actor, that is, if for example Dust screwed the pooch in production or Battlefront is engineering an excuse to void the contract and keep the KS money, it is extremely hard to judge that from the information available in this thread.
plastictrees wrote: The BF statement is very "incensed guilty party" to me.
Reads like something Defiance would have posted.
Actually, I was thinking the same thing of what Dust Studios has done thus far. You have Paolo out there agitating the public to rally around them, the put-upon little guy because the big bad business is holding all their money and not telling them anything. Except, you know, the very likely calls to enter mediation over a contract dispute. As weeble said, I'm highly skeptical that less than 3 pages is the full contract, which taken with omitting there was a dispute over said contract further makes what DS is doing seem quite disingenuous. There's quite a few details "creatively presented" in a manner that is not lying, but is very likely engineered to draw people onto their side where the full truth might not. Still a lot of unknowns in this fiasco, but offering up a massaged version of details puts me much more in mind of Tony Reidy's brand of communication. The big bad Chinese man was stealing his company...that he owed fantastical sums of money to and that he failed to live up to his agreements with. Details, they matter.
So on the one side you have a group that's trying to develop a cult of personality and foment public outcry, on the other side you have Battlefront. Really not sure who the bad actor is here, because any company that can't run a webstore today with stock integration is pretty suspect in terms of competence, and I've yet to see them accomplish anything in a timely fashion. Likely it's a bit of both.
Rockhaven wrote:I am a little surprised to discover this situation. The Dust Babylon KS was the first KS I backed and did so only after looking into Dust Studios background, history, and principal individuals involved (I was already aware of Battlefront's history and past products). Satisfied that this KS had a better than usual chance of success I backed it to the tune of $1050.
As things developed there were the fairly common issues with getting the pledge manager up and running but I was satisfied with regular updates that had been distributed through KS and when the pledge manager was finally ready I increased my order. I had come to realize there were items I wanted beyond what I had pledged for and a friend who had been following the Dust Babylon KS but didn't have funds at the time asked if he could add an Army Bundle to my order. At this point my pledge and shipping came to just under $1400.
Again there were regular updates through KS. As seems to be the norm with projects that greatly exceed their intial goal the production delays followed and the updates about when to expect things were clear, confident, and business like and as promised in updates the first portion of my order that should have shipped in Sept-Oct arrived on my door step in Canada in mid-Dec as promised in an update. At which point I got a pleasant surprise, I had been expecting that even with shipping out of a US address to Canada that I would have to pay import duties on my products (I was expecting $500-$600). Battlefront appears to have their distribution organised in such a manner that this is not the case. The only issue I had was there wasn't any indication of what my intial pledge order had been but just a shipping document that indicated which products were in my shipment and which were back ordered.
So I dug around and found that I had actually kept a copy of my pledge manager pages as a document on my computer and it matched the shipping document sent with my first order. As I didn't have any major concerns about my pledge I had let looking for my copy of the pledge order until after Christmas and as I had come to expect regular updates didn't give me any cause for concern. Two days after I found my copy of what I ordered I received an email that confirmed my order and which products had been backordered. The next week I received an email confirming the shipment of the second part of my order from UPS. It is scheduled to arrive Tuesday February 3. From everything I can see the shipment is an appropriate size for what I have yet to receive (2 largish boxes with an appropriate weight) and so I am still not concerned.
I don't doubt that there is some kind of contractual dispute brewing between Dust Studios and Battlefront. I only became aware of it through the update sent to all Backers of the project, and it took some digging to find this thread about it. From where I stand it looks like Dust Studios is trying to muster public support without providing really clear details in an official statement but by leaking rumours which then get twisted and speculated upon.
I'm still not concerned, as far as I can tell Battlefront has been nothing but profesional and business like in its actions and communications with me (the one small misstep being an over looked document with my first shipment). I'll know for sure on Tuesday when the rest of my order arrives (or not).
I certainly am not going to advise anyone to start talking about the sky falling at this point.
As always though YMMV
Rockhaven
Edit for spelling.
So your first and only post on this forum is to write a lengthy defense of Battlefront? Seems legit -_-
weeble1000 wrote:
What is probably going on is something akin to this hypothetical scenario:
Battlefront has withheld all or part of the payment on some contractual basis, i.e. within Battlefront's interpretation of the facts and the contract terms the company believes it has the right/duty/obligation to withhold payment of some kind. Dust Studio believes otherwise and feels that withholding of payment is a violation of the contract terms. Dust has done work and feels it is owed payment. Battlefront has received less than it had expected from Dust and is unwilling to pay until those concerns are addressed/redressed.
Stuff like this happens all of the time, and frankly neutral arbitration is often a productive method of resolving disputes like this. I would not be surprised if the contract itself included dispute resolution procedures.
In any case, there is quite clearly a dispute. It seems pretty clear that the dispute primarily concerns some form of payment for goods/services. Disputes like this happen all of the time.
That said, the way this seems to be going at the moment is a great way to make sure that the dispute will drag out over several years of contentious litigation. There could be a bad actor here, and that bad actor could be either Battlefront or Dust. It is more likely that fault of some kind or another can be laid at the feet of both Battlefront and Dust. If there is a bad actor, that is, if for example Dust screwed the pooch in production or Battlefront is engineering an excuse to void the contract and keep the KS money, it is extremely hard to judge that from the information available in this thread.
I'm not part of the KS but Dust does have photos of its production of wave 2. I'm not sure what valid reason there could be for not giving Dust Studios the invoice quantity for wave 2
Fishboy wrote: Who knows but either way this makes it very hard for people to trust kickstarters.
No it doesn't.
Really?
Because I'd imagine a lot of people are looking at this right now and wondering if they can trust kickstarters anymore (if they did to begin with)
When you have issues even with supposedly well established companies that have a good reputation, that can really hurt the image of something, like gaming kickstarters.
I know I'm a lot less likely to kickstart gaming related pages after the two I backed ended up hitting significant delays. I'm sure there are backers who are part of this who probably won't kickstart another event thanks to what's going on right now as well. On top of that, you probably have people who weren't even involved looking at it thinking "huh, well if this can happen to a kickstarter that looks this safe, what would it be like kickstarting true startups?"
weeble1000 wrote:
What is probably going on is something akin to this hypothetical scenario:
Battlefront has withheld all or part of the payment on some contractual basis, i.e. within Battlefront's interpretation of the facts and the contract terms the company believes it has the right/duty/obligation to withhold payment of some kind. Dust Studio believes otherwise and feels that withholding of payment is a violation of the contract terms. Dust has done work and feels it is owed payment. Battlefront has received less than it had expected from Dust and is unwilling to pay until those concerns are addressed/redressed.
Stuff like this happens all of the time, and frankly neutral arbitration is often a productive method of resolving disputes like this. I would not be surprised if the contract itself included dispute resolution procedures.
In any case, there is quite clearly a dispute. It seems pretty clear that the dispute primarily concerns some form of payment for goods/services. Disputes like this happen all of the time.
That said, the way this seems to be going at the moment is a great way to make sure that the dispute will drag out over several years of contentious litigation. There could be a bad actor here, and that bad actor could be either Battlefront or Dust. It is more likely that fault of some kind or another can be laid at the feet of both Battlefront and Dust. If there is a bad actor, that is, if for example Dust screwed the pooch in production or Battlefront is engineering an excuse to void the contract and keep the KS money, it is extremely hard to judge that from the information available in this thread.
I'm not part of the KS but Dust does have photos of its production of wave 2. I'm not sure what valid reason there could be for not giving Dust Studios the invoice quantity for wave 2
Frankly, the likelihood that Battlefront has a reasonable basis for doing so (assuming it is true) is much higher than the likelihood that the company withheld payment for no good reason. That's a great way to get into trouble.
Now, withholding payment on a contract is darn common. A purchaser usually lots of ways to withhold payment.
For example, under the Uniform Commercial Code in the US (which would not apply here, but it is an example) a purchaser is not required to remit payment for any goods that are not up to spec. This can be as simple as an aesthetic issue. The examples used typically involve hypothetical 'widgets', e.g. if I place an order for 10,000 Blue Widgets and you deliver 10,000 Red Widgets, those goods are not up to spec and I do not pay for them. Now, under the UCC, the manufacturer has several rights to remediation. In other words, the manufacturer can send me the Blue Widgets within a certain time frame, and I have to buy them at the agreed upon price, as opposed to going and buying Blue Widgets from someone else, especially if the market price for Blue Widgets has suddenly changed.
However, if the delay has caused harm to my business, such as, I don't know, not delivering my Blue Widget Kickstarter project on time, I might attach a monetary value to that harm which the manufacturer is potentially responsible for causing. The manufacturer might dispute my valuation, or dispute that any harm was caused, or dispute that the manufacturer was the sole responsible party for the harm. In the midst of this dispute, I would certainly not pay the manufacturer anything because there is an ongoing dispute about the payment.
In short, there's probably lots of he said, she said, your fault, no your fault going on here. That's pretty typical of a contract dispute, and this is what it smells like.
Ask yourself though, what reason would Battlefront have to deliberately queer the contract? Is Battlefront looking to manufacture cheaper somewhere else? If so, where? Is Battlefront planning to scuttle the Kickstarter and not complete fulfillment? Why would it do that? As I sit here this morning, I don't see a good reason to explain why Battlefront might be motivated to deliberately and unfairly extricate itself from the contract. That happens for sure. I've worked plenty of contract cases where that was going on, but I don't see it here from what we know about the situation.
Definitely a contract dispute...but the question does remain why?
What advantage would Dust have in souring their relationship with their new distributor?
What advantage would Battlefront have versus Dust?
The balance of power in the business relationship is clearly with Battlefront. If they loose Dust - they are really no worse off than they were a year ago. If Dust were to loose Battlefront - it could be lethal to them.
The contract itself is pretty simple and straight forward (love one page contracts...). Might just be that is early in the morning - but I am left wondering what the W9.1, W9.2 and W9.3 are... In any case, after the costs actually started to roll in...based off from cursory analysis of the KS, backer levels and money received - it would appear that there isn't much profit left for the 4th disbursement of funds to go to BF.
They may have wanted to renegotiate so that they are not doing the distribution for free (or possibly even loosing a bit of money on it). Dust didn't feel the same urgency to renegotiate...so BF decides to add a bit of pressure by holding the funds, expecting a quick resolution from BF.
I could be misreading things - but given the information available - it smells about right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
weeble1000 wrote: I think it is important to note that the document published by Parente is obviously not the whole contract.
Possibly, I know I have seen one page contracts - I liked to keep mine to a minimum (granted, they came with a full on glossary of terms and definitions...). The core of it does appear to be there without any significant omissions regarding scope, parties and signatures.
weeble, as you do seem to know which end is up with contracts based on this and your posts in other Dakka legal threads, what is your opinion of the contract as shown? Obviously there's other agreements in play as there's some undefined terms in there, but based on what we do know.
To me as a complete novice, this seems like a highly unfavorable contract to DS. They have hard deadlines for things to be shipped, while the obligations of BF are very nebulous and open to interpretation (e.g. - immediately distribute funds, but based on things that have no set time for them to actually know such as order quantities which apparently took until October/November?). I assume, which is dangerous I know, that BF's actions in not getting the manufacturing information together in a timely fashion undoubtedly caused DS to miss the shipping dates specified, but if that is the case does that throw the whole contract into a quagmire? I would think there's a certain amount of reasonableness to contracts that BF couldn't force their partner to be in breach of contract by faffing about with the pledge manager, but "common sense" and "law" don't always seem to align.
However, as presented the contract does seem to favor BF though with the caveat that DS would have probably been able to live up to their commitments had BF been more on top of their end of the deal. That said, I'm not experienced in the slightest about such things and it could be that this is a routine sort of agreement that's just gone off the rails in this particular case.
Krinsath wrote: weeble, as you do seem to know which end is up with contracts based on this and your posts in other Dakka legal threads, what is your opinion of the contract as shown? Obviously there's other agreements in play as there's some undefined terms in there, but based on what we do know.
To me as a complete novice, this seems like a highly unfavorable contract to DS. They have hard deadlines for things to be shipped, while the obligations of BF are very nebulous and open to interpretation (e.g. - immediately distribute funds, but based on things that have no set time for them to actually know such as order quantities which apparently took until October/November?). I assume, which is dangerous I know, that BF's actions in not getting the manufacturing information together in a timely fashion undoubtedly caused DS to miss the shipping dates specified, but if that is the case does that throw the whole contract into a quagmire? I would think there's a certain amount of reasonableness to contracts that BF couldn't force their partner to be in breach of contract by faffing about with the pledge manager, but "common sense" and "law" don't always seem to align.
However, as presented the contract does seem to favor BF though with the caveat that DS would have probably been able to live up to their commitments had BF been more on top of their end of the deal. That said, I'm not experienced in the slightest about such things and it could be that this is a routine sort of agreement that's just gone off the rails in this particular case.
I would disagree that it is unfavorable to DS.
They get set moneys based off from products delivered. They only need to deliver on time...pretty easy stuff.
BF carries the brunt of the unknowns and gets a "share of the profit" - a very nebulous and often non-existent thing.
They get set moneys based off from products delivered. They only need to deliver on time...pretty easy stuff.
BF carries the brunt of the unknowns and gets a "share of the profit" - a very nebulous and often non-existent thing.
I was thinking in terms of obligations, but yes you are right that financially DS is much better off now that I read it from that angle. This also makes much more sense as to why BF would be so keen to renegotiate, though it could also be that 25% of the proceeds is now insufficient to cover shipping and BF doesn't want to lose tons of money on that deal. Or a combination of that and more besides.
So, it all comes down to money in the end in all likelihood which I think surprises....nobody? Pretty sure that's who's shocked at this anyway. Unfortunate though because Dust seems an interesting concept.
Krinsath wrote: weeble, as you do seem to know which end is up with contracts based on this and your posts in other Dakka legal threads, what is your opinion of the contract as shown? Obviously there's other agreements in play as there's some undefined terms in there, but based on what we do know.
It is important to note that someone like Sean has more experience with drafting and negotiating contracts. My experience comes from contentious litigation that has devolved to the point of a likely trial.
So my experience is mostly with the story behind a contract dispute. I'm not paying so much attention to what the contract actually says, although it looks pretty straightforward aside from the references to what appear to be product codes that are nowhere defined in the document. I'm mostly looking at what Parente and Battlefront are saying about the situation. Contracts are negotiated by people, and people have different ideas about things.
Of course, that's one reason to have a written contract with clearly defined terms, but even contracts between billion dollar companies can often look irrationally ambiguous.
What I see here is a problem. Kickstarter fulfillment is way behind schedule and wave shipment is tearing into the profits. The Kickstarter money is finite and every additional problem along the way eats into it. Fingers have begun to be pointed, pressure has been applied, emotions are on the rise.
Whatever the contract says, there's probably enough wiggle room for both parties to feel that they are in the right. Parente is clearly miffed and feels like the aggrieved party. Now, Sean is entirely correct that Dust is in a weaker position relative to Battlefront. This means that Battlefront will feel a little safer in turning the screws and Dust will feel more helpless when pressure is applied. It does not, however, immediately mean that Battlefront is in the wrong.
The delays are a big issue with this thing. Parente is trying to lay those delays at the feet of Battlefront, which means that Battlefront has probably blamed all or some of the delays on Dust.
This is ultimately a Kickstarter problem, and it should be yet another object lesson in why backing a Kickstarter is a risky proposition. Even established companies will feth things up, and there is an inherent friction that comes with a big pile of money sitting in a bank account somewhere that everybody wants their piece of. You know the money is there, you know how much it is, and you've been waiting 18 months to get your share. That's not a happy recipe.
I find it far more likely that Battlefront wishes to renegotiate the 209K that they owe DS, which if you consider the fact that this 209K is supposed to come out of the KS funds of 460+K, and before the cost of production, cost of shipping from paolo to them, cost of shipping from them to the backers and so on. They may have taken less than they wished to in the KS. Otoh, waiting till wave 2 to do this is kinda screwy
Wow, according to a recent FB post by Paolo Parente, Battlefront spent the KS money on non-Kickstarter related Dust projects, according to Paolo Parente in this FB comment:
"...you are right, somebody tried this already... the mediation l mean, they came up with a variety of excuses why they were not giving Dust Studio the funds. The last "hilarious" one was: since they used KS $ to pay their debts for wave 9.1-.3 plus the first part of the Babylon delivery we should consider ourselves fully payed YES! try this next time you go to the grocery store! "3 kilograms of Apples + 3 Kg. of Oranges, please. Here is the money for the apples. What!? outrageous! you don`t REALLY expect me to pay for the oranges now!!!"
I believe that the contract is most likely full, but reference other contracts they have between them. When asked about the smallness of the contract Paolo stated this:
(the following quotes come from the Dust Tactics Fans - Official Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/303941853917/)
Paolo Parente: you are right André Winter, this contract lacks of many things including a Confidentiality Clause, that makes it eligible for being public.
When asked about the weird W9 items he said:
Rick Ivansek I believe W9 line items are the earlier pre-Kickstater main stock items that they never paid for until receiving the KS funds.
Paolo Parente That`s correct.
My guess is that those items are the newer starter boxes and/or have to do with Operation Achilles.
What I've gathered is that both companies initially shouldered large chunks of money for DUST. Dust Studios is mainly responsible for the models and IP, while Battlefront is not only responsible for distribution, but also for things (I believe) such as the rules, possibly printed materials, dice, etc. It sounds before the kickstarter Battlefront was in debt in the project and they had not paid DS for the initial models (W9 line items) that they had been selling.
The kickstarter was to get things moving and help get Battlefront out of debt on the project. Conjecture: By that time, I'm sure BF was much less enthusiastic about the project and from what I gather from customers, dragging their feet on the distribution side.
Steven Painter: This contract says to me that BF could not have made any profit from the kickstarter. Without doing the math it looks like they offered backers too much at too low a price, and items W9.1, W9.2 and W9.3 are what? Outstanding debts? Whatever they are, they would have eaten any remaining profits...
Paolo Parente: That`s correct, the goal of the KS was to help BC pay their overdue invoices to our Factoring Bank that was chasing them... There are no profits on either side. DS have invested 400K USD in the production and tooling... no profits is ok. Life goes on.
The kickstarter went through Battlefront because they have a USA based section of the company and they owed money to DS's factoring bank (for the previously unpaid items).
Terry McDonough: Thanks Paolo for putting up the contract. It certainly make for interesting reading. I know hindsight is a wonderful gift but given the bulk of the funds raised were to go to DS to pay for product & settle debts why didn't DS have the contract written so that payment was to go direct to DS & not through BF ?
Paolo Parente: Terry McDonough, for two reasons: DS is an Hong Kong company, not directly eligible for a KS, secondly the overdue payments were for the Factoring Bank to cash not to go directly to Dust Studio.
It sounds like in middle of the campaign Battlefront made the classic KS mistake of allowing backers to make various customizations to their pledges to bring in more money, which of course sounds like a good idea at the time, until you have to sort that out post kick-starter.
After the kickstarter, Battlefront used the money to pay the factoring bank to get out of debt first, when they were supposed to pay DS for the kickstarter items first.
Paolo Parente: OH! they payed the Bank before they payed us, it`s a "small" breach of contract that has been forgiven, you know... when a bank chases u...
Then came the Pledge Manager nightmare. My understanding is because of all the customized pledges, the number of backers, and allowing for add-ons post Kickstarter, BF became extremely delayed with the pledge manager, well past the contracted KS due date. I'm sure BF invested a lot more time, energy, and funds than anticipated.
Without having an accurate count of who wants what, Dust Studios was unable to know what to produce for whom. Initial items were produced by DS, but I'm sure not enough to cover all of the orders.
At some point BF also had made arrangements to distribute to stores, including the Warstore, who with their normal discount, listed pre-orders on items for less than what the backers were paying. Backers were of course angry at this, and with the fact that it seemed some of these places may get the KS items before or at the same time as them.
BF divides up the KS into 2 waves to prevent further dealy (another classic KS mistake, due to the cost of postage), and sends out the first wave of material. However there are various reports of backers receiving very little, long packings lists of various items on "Out of Stock". There were also a number of mispack reports. A number of backers become angry over lack of communication and/or responses to mispacks.
Paolo reports that he still hasn't been paid for their work (for at least the Wave 2 items) but has been continuing to make at least the amounts he's aware of (along with additionals).
Paolo also reports that mediation has already been tried (at least once):
Paolo Parente: Brynn Wood you are right, somebody tried this already... the mediation l mean, they came up with a variety of excuses why they were not giving Dust Studio the funds. The last "hilarious" one was: since they used KS $ to pay their debts for wave 9.1-.3 plus the first part of the Babylon delivery we should consider ourselves fully payed YES! try this next time you go to the grocery store! "3 kilograms of Apples + 3 Kg. of Oranges, please. Here is the money for the apples. What!? outrageous! you don`t REALLY expect me to pay for the oranges now!!!
It does seem that BF thought they would be able to turn the line around and having failed to do so are now not happy with their arrangement. I'd be concerned that this is pretty likely to lead to a BF/DS split regardless (for obvious reasons on both sides). At that point where does Dust go from there? Direct marketing? The whole boondoggle with the KS seems to have started from their lack of reach, and that doesn't get better without a distributor of any kind.
Why does BF care if they're not making money from the DSKS? In their own words
"We generate more revenue in a single boardgame release or month of FOW sales than DUST is worth all year so this project is all about the DUST Studio and their needs and we as partners are doing our part to help" From their KS comment, May 22, 2014.
I mean, honestly I'd just be throwing this back in their face most of the time in this situation
Jesus, there's three different spellings of Spesnaz/Spetsnaz in the three listings of them I saw while going over the contract and neither one is correct That's quite a feat.
wildger wrote: I have a very bad feeling about this. I simply hope that Dust will not end up with the same fate as AT-43.
With the way this is going, it probably won't end up far from it. The FFG sale last november at 75% off reminded me of AT-43 and ironically the fact that I've never used any of the AT-43 stuff they sold at that discount is why I didn't order any Dust stuff at the same. Dust probably won't completely go belly up but will likely turn into a direct order from the manufacturer boutique game like Heavy Gear that almost no one carries.
wildger wrote: I have a very bad feeling about this. I simply hope that Dust will not end up with the same fate as AT-43.
With the way this is going, it probably won't end up far from it. The FFG sale last november at 75% off reminded me of AT-43 and ironically the fact that I've never used any of the AT-43 stuff they sold at that discount is why I didn't order any Dust stuff at the same. Dust probably won't completely go belly up but will likely turn into a direct order from the manufacturer boutique game like Heavy Gear that almost no one carries.
The big difference is that Rackham owned AT-43, so when they went under, AT-43 went down with it, Paolo had no option to keep it going. Dust is owned by Paolo, so unless Dust Studios completely closes, I don't think Dust will die off. This KS isa huge hit to the brand, when it shoud have done the opposite, and that is ALL on Battlefront. The fact their customer service department has been inactive for months should tell you all you need to know about how poorly they run their business.
I believe I'll start to shy away from kickstarters involving more than one entity(other than the creator/manufacturer kind), along with album or any kind of music kickstarters. Way too much can go wrong.
Sinful Hero wrote: I believe I'll start to shy away from kickstarters involving more than one entity(other than the creator/manufacturer kind), along with album or any kind of music kickstarters. Way too much can go wrong.
That's *definitely* true, but, I think, for this KS, it's more like, "A KS doesn't make a bad company become good". See: Doom that Came to Atlantic City and Defiance.
Sinful Hero wrote: I believe I'll start to shy away from kickstarters involving more than one entity(other than the creator/manufacturer kind), along with album or any kind of music kickstarters. Way too much can go wrong.
That's *definitely* true, but, I think, for this KS, it's more like, "A KS doesn't make a bad company become good". See: Doom that Came to Atlantic City and Defiance.
Thanks for the article, Jehan.
Kickstarter is fine as long as you treat backing a project as a charitable donation or a speculative investment with no guarantee of return. A backer is like a junior league venture capitalist who never gets a huge return.
I back projects because I believe in them, or because I think the product is a cool idea. For me, when a Kickstarter project fulfills, I consider it a nice surprise in the mail, like a refund from a utility. Will my Tac-Tiles ever arrive? Probably, but I won't cry in my cereal if they don't. Is Aetherium going to show up one day? Most likely, and I'd love to see the product, but I backed because I love the company's philosophy. Are my Wolsung pledge rewards going to show up one day? Sure, sometime. And it will be a nice surprise when they do. But I ain't looking for them. I threw a little money at Bones 2 because I was going to buy those models when they hit retail and a wave 1 shipping slot opened up. I will honestly not be surprised if my little $10 pledge gets lost in the mix. If it does, I'll just buy them again when they hit retail. No big deal.
I back each and every Red Box Games Kickstarter on principle. I have so many RBG miniatures I likely won't ever get around to all of them. But that's not the point. Keeping those lovely products on the market is the point. Supporting a great artist and a great person is the point.
That's how you don't get 'burned' with Kickstarter. It isn't a store. It isn't a pre-order.
weeble1000 wrote: That's how you don't get 'burned' with Kickstarter. It isn't a store. It isn't a pre-order.
Except BF were upfront about the Dust KS being a pre-order. Everybody involved knew it wasn't supposed to fund anything, other than to allow BF to pay off its outstanding debt to DS, apparently.
What makes me scratch my head is the fact that so many people chose to pre-order the game through an unreliable platform, risking non-delivery, instead of simply doing it through a respectable online store.
weeble1000 wrote: That's how you don't get 'burned' with Kickstarter. It isn't a store. It isn't a pre-order.
Except BF were upfront about the Dust KS being a pre-order. Everybody involved knew it wasn't supposed to fund anything, other than to allow BF to pay off its outstanding debt to DS, apparently.
What makes me scratch my head is the fact that so many people chose to pre-order the game through an unreliable platform, risking non-delivery, instead of simply doing it through a respectable online store.
Battlefront can say what it likes. It don't make Kickstarter a preorder system.
I know my view of Kickstarter isn't the same as everyone's, but I think it is both a healthier and more objectively accurate way to view crowdfunding.
weeble1000 wrote: Battlefront can say what it likes. It don't make Kickstarter a preorder system.
You have that backwards. If you are acting in a manner which pretty blatantly implies you are selling a product, and you accept money given in payment for that product, you are bound by consumer protection law. You don't get to turn around and say "Oh, it wasn't really a pre-order, just a request for charitable donations!" That gak does not fly.
-DE- wrote: KS as a whole - no. This particular "campaign" - yes.
Also - I wouldn't call not caring what happens to hundreds of one's dollars healthy. Unless one's a millionaire.
I find that once one has spent their money, it's best to care very little. All the angst and up-front work should be done long before one parts with the money, and that really applies to retail transactions as well. That way if things look odd, the person can walk away and still have their money. Going the other way, they have to wail and gnash their teeth and hope somehow they can find some way to recover what they already had at one point. Hence why KickStarter is a thing that requires a bit of faith in the company/individual involved. If you look into a campaign and find yourself unable to trust things fully, you should probably go somewhere else that offers a more immediate or secure deal.
That doesn't excuse actions such as harming a third-party to a transaction though. While I can understand BF feeling like DS has created a boondoggle for them and the brand really isn't worth it in hindsight, that doesn't mean that they can just ignore the fact that they made a deal with the backers of the KS to deliver these things. If they want to drop DS like they're hot garbage then fine, but don't involve people who have nothing to do with the contract dispute in that. If I hired a contractor to fix my house and they received sub-standard materials from a supplier, the contractor's issues with a supplier are not my concern as the end customer. The contractor needs to live up to their agreement, regardless of how difficult or unprofitable a given partner is making it. Really the only thing that I find distasteful here is using money from a third-party to strong-arm contract negotiations, though again maybe that goes on regularly behind the scenes in the marketplace and I'm just ignorant.
weeble1000 wrote: That's how you don't get 'burned' with Kickstarter. It isn't a store. It isn't a pre-order.
Except BF were upfront about the Dust KS being a pre-order. Everybody involved knew it wasn't supposed to fund anything, other than to allow BF to pay off its outstanding debt to DS, apparently.
What makes me scratch my head is the fact that so many people chose to pre-order the game through an unreliable platform, risking non-delivery, instead of simply doing it through a respectable online store.
Battlefront can say what it likes. It don't make Kickstarter a preorder system.
I know my view of Kickstarter isn't the same as everyone's, but I think it is both a healthier and more objectively accurate way to view crowdfunding.
That's generally how I try to look at when I back a project also, and that may be what Kickstarter initially envisioned, but legally it's the case only if a project clearly states that. Kickstarter isn't much more than a payment collection system (not too different than Ebay actually). The terms of the agreement (no matter how poorly defined) are defined by each individual project. Just like if I say I'll pay you 50 bucks to fix my car, and you say yes, and then I pay you, that's a verbal contract that can be upheld in court. It becomes harder to prove when it's not written down or details aren't clearly defined ("the 50 was only supposed to be for the muffler, not the whole exhaust system"), but a person could still take someone to court over the poorest of contracts.
With a Kickstarter project you still have the same legal recourse as you would an online store. The things that make KS more "dangerous" is that it enables people/companies to take on more than it can handle, so you have a higher degree of broken contracts for large amounts of money, and you have transactions that last more than 6 months. Most people's recourse now days is to dispute through their credit card company. It's quick and doesn't involve going to court. You can dispute KS transactions with your credit card like any other purchase, but the further in the past the transaction, the less likely they are to do it, with 6 months being the general cutoff.
If companies or individuals just wanted money for existing or attempting to do something, I would suggest Patreon instead of Kickstarter, since KS actually requires you to accomplish something.
I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
Now if you're wondering why I'm paying now: I have been emailing them for six months begging for them to send me the invoice... I finally got it Thursday, paid it Friday.
I did two swaps. It took them six months to confirm two items being swapped.
Although to be fair, they only responded once every three months.
So yeah... not really going to take BF's side on this.
A lot of people are forgetting the months that BF would not post updates or respond to emails... this Kickstarter has been kind of a mess.
The contract looks very clean, and it would appear that BF has reneged on payment, so they are in material breach of contract. I hope DS takes them for every penny, plus treble damages.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
Now if you're wondering why I'm paying now: I have been emailing them for six months begging for them to send me the invoice... I finally got it Thursday, paid it Friday.
I did two swaps. It took them six months to confirm two items being swapped.
Although to be fair, they only responded once every three months.
So yeah... not really going to take BF's side on this.
A lot of people are forgetting the months that BF would not post updates or respond to emails... this Kickstarter has been kind of a mess.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
This.
Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.
Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!
The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.
Sining wrote: Yeah. That's your attitude towards KS though, not everybody's.
It's the best way to treat them though. Rather than seeing KS as a store where you pre-order.
If that is how the majority of tabletop game KS were presented by creators as well as pledged on by the public, I suspect we'd have only a small handful that would crack the 6 figure mark.
I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.
There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.
There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.
There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.
BF FINALLY refunded my KS pledge after months of back and forth. Just glad I got out of this with nothing lost than my patience for BF and interest in Dust.
Hope DS can forge their own way without relying on outside distribution, but I'm not supporting BF ever again.
My dealings with BF have been very good any issues I have had with FoW products have been dealt with quickly and professionally. I was just starting to warm to a company that cares about their community (after GW pretty much said piss off to everyone) and then they go do something like this!
Lets just hope they sort it out quickly and everyone moves on.
My dealings with BF have been very good any issues I have had with FoW products have been dealt with quickly and professionally. I was just starting to warm to a company that cares about their community (after GW pretty much said piss off to everyone) and then they go do something like this!
Lets just hope they sort it out quickly and everyone moves on.
From almost all the reports about GW customer service (other than during the peak of "fine"cast issues) I've seen, they're top notch just like you're describing for BF. BF also takes their cues from GW in regards to how they bully retailers into not giving discounts as well as mandating their own models in events. As a newer company that IIRC was started by ex-GW employees, they're basically a snap shot of GW in the mid to late 1990's.
SeanDrake wrote: I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.
There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.
There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.
There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.
This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.
SeanDrake wrote: I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.
There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.
There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.
There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.
This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.
I'd suspect that it is due to the relative lack of power. BF is the big dog and has the money whereas DS has had to shoulder the costs without apparent payment. Going public is "free" whereas depending on legal avenues isn't.
-DE- wrote: Except BF were upfront about the Dust KS being a pre-order.
Not getting what you paid for is a he**uva definition of a "pre-order"!
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AlexHolker wrote: If you are acting in a manner which pretty blatantly implies you are selling a product, and you accept money given in payment for that product, you are bound by consumer protection law. You don't get to turn around and say "Oh, it wasn't really a pre-order, just a request for charitable donations!" That gak does not fly.
It does if it's not enforced. AFAIK, only that DA in Washington has done *anything* remotely resembling consumer protection law. Were there any other examples?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Krinsath wrote: While I can understand BF feeling like DS has created a boondoggle for them and the brand really isn't worth it in hindsight, that doesn't mean that they can just ignore the fact that they made a deal with the backers of the KS to deliver these things. If they want to drop DS like they're hot garbage then fine, but don't involve people who have nothing to do with the contract dispute in that..
Except who else would manufacture the miniatures? I certainly wouldn't want to deal with a company that even has the possibility of reneging on a contract.
Anyway, replying because RikTor of Up Front fame spent pretty much the equivalent of their KS funds on their lawyers then settled, leaving backers with no rewards. I guess that's how some creators see the "deal" or "pre-order".
SeanDrake wrote: I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.
There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.
There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.
There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.
This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.
I'd suspect that it is due to the relative lack of power. BF is the big dog and has the money whereas DS has had to shoulder the costs without apparent payment. Going public is "free" whereas depending on legal avenues isn't.
More to the point, legal avenues take time (and money) that DS may not have. In the mean time, BF will continue to spend DS' money in order not to pay them. Unless DS can place a lien on BF and/or lock BF's accounts & receivables, this could take a very long time and there won't be any cash left, while DS goes out of business.
SeanDrake wrote: I don't know, given how aggressively DS attacked this that's normally a sign of weakness.
There rousing the rabble when if it was a simple case of them being in the right they would have been rousing the lawyers.
There guessing that BF will cave to public pressure as a last gamble while burning there bridges.
There's no way Dust recovers from this they salted the earth and no other distrubitor is going to touch them. Also the amount of cheap stock ffg dropped will not help either. At best it's going to survive as a cult product.
This was my take as well. If you have a clear example of failure to honor a contract, you let your attorney's handle it and move forward. Instead you stick it out in social media hoping that public pressure will get you where legal avenues have failed? It certainly doesn't seem like that is how you would negotiate from strength.
I'd suspect that it is due to the relative lack of power. BF is the big dog and has the money whereas DS has had to shoulder the costs without apparent payment. Going public is "free" whereas depending on legal avenues isn't.
More to the point, legal avenues take time (and money) that DS may not have. In the mean time, BF will continue to spend DS' money in order not to pay them. Unless DS can place a lien on BF and/or lock BF's accounts & receivables, this could take a very long time and there won't be any cash left, while DS goes out of business.
They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...
Dang. DIdn't even think of which court would cover this case. Yeah, it'll be fun if Conan goes to the lawyers.
Anyway, I'm looking at the Dust: Operation Babylon homepage: "Dust Studio are working with Battlefront to bring this project to completion. Battlefront will handle the fulfillment of the pledges, shipping the rewards to backers through their worldwide distribution network."
So... I guess there's your yellow flag to not back the project. However, did backers ever know during the funding that BF would be receiving the funds? (Was it their name of the credit card statement?) I mean, the creator is "Dust Studios", so I would mistakenly assume that Dust Studios would be collecting my money when the funding ended.
ced1106 wrote: However, did backers ever know during the funding that BF would be receiving the funds? (Was it their name of the credit card statement?) I mean, the creator is "Dust Studios", so I would mistakenly assume that Dust Studios would be collecting my money when the funding ended.
Thanks in advance!
I don't think it was clear who would be receiving the funds at the time. In retrospect, it should have been a bit of a red flag but at the time it seems like such a sure fire KS, as it WAS marketed more or less as a pre-order. All the models were completed already, we were just funding the expedited mass-production and distribution. They sold us on get the entire Babylon Campaign in August rather than it stretching out over the whole year. Now it will take a year anyway and soured many people on the game.
They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...
Which is why I found the lack of a choice of venue clause to be rather odd.
They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...
Which is why I found the lack of a choice of venue clause to be rather odd.
Rather silly and a bit on the amateurish side - but not at all uncommon, especially with hobby businesses (even million dollar hobby businesses). Everyone are friends and family (or something like that) so nothing could ever go sour to the point where we would need to litigate...
I know I have gotten a few looks and a bit of...perhaps hurt feelings?...when I have said that I will sign the contract after my lawyer looks it over. Even more so, when I bring back a redlined contract with additional clauses.
Sining wrote: Let's just agree that people have different opinions and there is no way to quantify "the best way".
No. If you really believe what Weeble says, you are defending fraud on a multi-million dollar scale. Read the "Risks and Challenges" section - not once do they even mention the possibility that you will not get the product you paid for. Read the sidebar and pretty much the entire front page - a list of products for sale and the price they will charge you for each. By any sane measure, they are presenting themselves as selling a product.
They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...
Battlefront has a US HQ in Maryland. Presumably any case could be filed against them in the US.
They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...
Battlefront has a US HQ in Maryland. Presumably any case could be filed against them in the US.
It isn't really a question of if the case could be filed...rather a question of then what? Even having a large HQ in the US, doesn't mean that there would be liquid assets that could be garnered to cover the judgment. Most the money is probably not kept here, and putting a lien on real property is only effective should they move to sell it.
Sining wrote: Let's just agree that people have different opinions and there is no way to quantify "the best way".
No. If you really believe what Weeble says, you are defending fraud on a multi-million dollar scale. Read the "Risks and Challenges" section - not once do they even mention the possibility that you will not get the product you paid for. Read the sidebar and pretty much the entire front page - a list of products for sale and the price they will charge you for each. By any sane measure, they are presenting themselves as selling a product.
First of all, I'm not the one who agrees with weeble.
Second of all, I rather not get into a whole argument about what KS is supposed to be about and what it really is. Especially when this isn't about KS so much as it is about BF not paying DS
It seems like, according to the official updates, Two companies are trying to figure out how to communicate, and every impatient nerd online is crying to get their stuff right meow.
I back projects because I believe in them, or because I think the product is a cool idea. For me, when a Kickstarter project fulfills, I consider it a nice surprise in the mail, like a refund from a utility. Will my Tac-Tiles ever arrive? Probably, but I won't cry in my cereal if they don't. Is Aetherium going to show up one day? Most likely, and I'd love to see the product, but I backed because I love the company's philosophy. Are my Wolsung pledge rewards going to show up one day? Sure, sometime. And it will be a nice surprise when they do. But I ain't looking for them. I threw a little money at Bones 2 because I was going to buy those models when they hit retail and a wave 1 shipping slot opened up. I will honestly not be surprised if my little $10 pledge gets lost in the mix. If it does, I'll just buy them again when they hit retail. No big deal.
I back each and every Red Box Games Kickstarter on principle. I have so many RBG miniatures I likely won't ever get around to all of them. But that's not the point. Keeping those lovely products on the market is the point. Supporting a great artist and a great person is the point.
That's how you don't get 'burned' with Kickstarter. It isn't a store. It isn't a pre-order.
Really couldn't have said it better, weeble. Exactly my sentiments.
At the risk of repeating what might have already been said in this thread, what does and does not constitute the right attitude to back a kickstarter isn't really the issue. My understanding when I backed this was that I was contributing money to get tooling made and production moving pronto on a whole bunch of Dust product that would otherwise be made in dribs and drabs. In return for my contribution, I would get some of this product at a fair discount over retail.
What I wasn't told was that my kickstarter pledge would be partly to pay for Battlefront being in hock to Dust Studios to the tune of $200+k. Had I known that at the beginning of this fiasco - indeed, had I had an opportunity to read that contract Paolo posted - I would never have backed this dog as it is perfectly obvious that Battlefront has cashflow problems. The contract makes it abundantly clear that Battlefront can't make a dime of profit out of this kickstarter.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
This.
Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.
Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!
The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.
Willful blatant fear mongering.
Battle Front isn't a small operation. If you think you're going to some how magically lose your money if you don't rush out RIGHT NOW and get your dollars back, then you're a fool.
Is the situation messed up, causing delays? Sadly yes. Are you going to be "ripped off", no.
Starfarer wrote: Battlefront has a US HQ in Maryland. Presumably any case could be filed against them in the US.
Yeah, but by whom?
That's one of the main problems about KS. It's *almost* a given that the only recourse a backer will take is a credit card refund. I keep reading about how backers can file this, or litigate that, but it's all talk and no nothin'.
...and neither of these KS are miniatures or tabletop gaming.
I'll try to shut up now because...
Starfarer wrote: I don't think it was clear who would be receiving the funds at the time. In retrospect, it should have been a bit of a red flag but at the time it seems like such a sure fire KS, as it WAS marketed more or less as a pre-order. All the models were completed already, we were just funding the expedited mass-production and distribution. They sold us on get the entire Babylon Campaign in August rather than it stretching out over the whole year. Now it will take a year anyway and soured many people on the game.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
This.
Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.
Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!
The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.
Willful blatant fear mongering.
Battle Front isn't a small operation. If you think you're going to some how magically lose your money if you don't rush out RIGHT NOW and get your dollars back, then you're a fool.
Is the situation messed up, causing delays? Sadly yes. Are you going to be "ripped off", no.
Given BF's actions (or lack thereof), yes, there is a non-zero chance that backers are going to get ripped off. They may be large, but being large is no protection from bankruptcy or failing to deliver against an unsecured promise.
If one is risk adverse, then, they definitely should pull their money back.
Not everyone is an independently wealthy BF apologist like yourself.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
This.
Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.
Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!
The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.
Willful blatant fear mongering.
Battle Front isn't a small operation. If you think you're going to some how magically lose your money if you don't rush out RIGHT NOW and get your dollars back, then you're a fool.
Is the situation messed up, causing delays? Sadly yes. Are you going to be "ripped off", no.
Given BF's actions (or lack thereof), yes, there is a non-zero chance that backers are going to get ripped off. They may be large, but being large is no protection from bankruptcy or failing to deliver against an unsecured promise.
If one is risk adverse, then, they definitely should pull their money back.
Not everyone is an independently wealthy BF apologist like yourself.
You were doing good until the last line. "BF" apologist? Whatever kiddo.
There's also NO talk of them hitting bankruptcy. You've been generating that little titbit to scare people.
You don't like BF? Fine. But attributing instability to add scare to the situation doesn't make it so- too bad you don't like being called out on that. The situation is messed up, granted. However, the situation isn't over, so telling people they should make a bank run is juvenile.
Starfarer wrote: Battlefront has a US HQ in Maryland. Presumably any case could be filed against them in the US.
Yeah, but by whom?
That's one of the main problems about KS. It's *almost* a given that the only recourse a backer will take is a credit card refund. I keep reading about how backers can file this, or litigate that, but it's all talk and no nothin'.
I'm not going to go into my own personal details, but I've gotten a refund from one KS campaign via my bank successfully performing a VISA chargeback on my behalf (with a couple of very detailed letters written by myself). Not something I did lightly, but it was worthwhile and vindicated in the end. If anyone here wants to try the same in this case, then I suggest the best course of action isn't posting here, but calling your bank. I'd suggest that with all of the information on the KS page for this one, you've got a very reasonable case already assembled for you.
1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed.
2. BF lacks the cash, so cannot honor the contract, even if they wanted to.
In the first case, there is a fundamental ethical issue, that should send any backer running for the hills. Never do business with a cheat.
Do you not know what "bankruptcy" is? If the DS bill is due (and it is), and BF cannot pay it, they *are* bankrupt, simple as that. Companies with cash flow problems are unreliable. If DS is a low priority, what makes you think this will ever become a high priority?
Or, it's possible that BF is totally incompetent. It's also good practice to avoid business with feth-ups.
Finally, I call you out as an apologist (which is the behavior you're evidencing), and you're then one calling me names like "kiddo" and "fool".
1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed.
2. BF lacks the cash, so cannot honor the contract, even if they wanted to.
the rest Exalted
I go with number 2) based on Paolo's statement that they used funds from the KS to pay the outstanding debt of $220 k first and then not forwarding the amount owed for KS related production costs. They broke the terms of the KS agreement between themselves and DS (posted for all to see) as well as their KS commitment to the backers (which has also been detailed).
Another aspect of his comment I found interesting was BFs last communicated stock request was back in November and we all know how close to the mark that was....
To quote Foghorn-Leghorn (I hope you know who that is, if not, youtube it, very funny cartoon); "I say, I say, hoooolllddd on a minute there".
Moopy's critique (a valid one at that, imho) of your 'git while the gittin's good' statement was not an attack on you.
He shouldn't have used the word 'fool'. I personally would have said 'is foolish' (which I believe is how he meant it, but it doesn't excuse the name calling).
Your subsequent declaration (which was most assuredly an attack) that he is an apologist for BF, is the internet forum equivalent of that old Bugs Bunny cartoon where Bugs takes a pie to the face and responds by saying "of course you realize...this means war". If anything he showed remarkable restraint in his retort. To refer to anyone as an apologist (even if they are, which I don't believe this is the case in this example) for anything, is just picking a fight, and doesn't really add anything constructive to the discussion.
Regarding the topic at hand, it saddens me, as an owner/operator of a FLGS, that this whole situation between DS and BF threatens the Dust Tactics brand. I would really hate to see it die out as it is a really cool setting, imo, for a game system, with a good rules system as well, and I have just started growing a player base for Dust Tactics at my store.
Unfortunately, I would hazard to guess, that we only have about half of the information regarding this dispute between DS and BF, and as such, it makes formulating an opinion on it very difficult, if not impossible. Specifically, which company is wanting to change what/interpreting what, which company is saying no/interpreting it differently, and which one is being the more unreasonable to the other.
On the one hand BF seems arrogant, especially in the context of the quote regarding their opinion of Dust Tactics as being a drop in the bucket (paraphrase). While DS comes off as suspect and/or disingenuous with their attempt at inciting public opinion against BF.
The whole thing just really sucks for the game, and it's fans.
1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed.
2. BF lacks the cash, so cannot honor the contract, even if they wanted to.
It is actually 3.
BF and DS are in disagreement whether enough stock was delivered vor the amount payed and BF is witholding further payment until that is figured out.
Going public first the way DS did in nearly 99% of all cases means that your legal position is quite shaky and that you try to sway the public your way to create pressure.
Also the pdf-contract is lacking, Paolo himself admitted on FB that the pdf is lacking quite some bits. The way it looks the PDF is lacking cause it is just a preliminary contract. Also objects mentioned in the contract are not explained which refers to the existance of other contracts that have not been made public.
Will you get your stuff for your money? You will.
Will you get it tomorrow? Better prepare for a longer wait.
It's actually a quite usual contract-disagreement that most of times solved by a mediator. Sadly in this case DS deiced to take the public route.
BF does quite well besides from their restructuring of FoW boxes and blisters and to make it easier for shops to carry most of their SKU and the swithc to plastics. That´s the reason why some SKU are not that easy to buy. With several thousand SKU this takes quite some time.
DS in the end will be hurt more by it:
> No other distributor will want to carry DS after witnessing how FFG and BF got treated.
> Community is torn in two and quite some bad blood is flowing.
> Community is looked upon strangly after some whackos took hostage other games forums with their crusade.
Dust will probably recover, but was it worth it? Not really.
Considering the uncertain state of things right now, I can't imagine anyone advocating to piggyback onto this KS. It seems it might be better to just hold onto the money and wait till MM or Warstore comes out with the items.
No other distributor will want to carry DS after witnessing how FFG and BF got treated.
How did FFG get treated?
That's funny that you asked that. I was about to ask the same thing.
Here's what I know:
FFG outsources manufacture of X-wing to Dust Studios in some way, so the relationship can't be THAT bad. (It's also hugely popular and makes both parties tons of money).
Here's what I heard:
FFG were actually the ones to disengage from DS on Dust - because of complications caused by GW viewing Dust as a competitor to their own brand.
Regardless of the actual reason, the split between DS and FFG on the Dust brand appears to have been amicable.
They also tend to be complicated - heck, just figuring out where to file your case isn't straight forward. BF is out of New Zealand, DS is out of Hong Kong, the KS was ran out of the US...where do you file your case? Everything in the contract may be cut and dry, but that still isn't worth much unless you can identify a venue to file in which actually has the ability to take action. Filing in New Zealand would probably have that option. Not sure if New Zealand courts would want to arbitrate on a contract which was designed for a US based activity (global yes - but in theory...based out of the US). BF might now have any real assets in the US which could be acted against - so, a win would be meaningless...
Which is why I found the lack of a choice of venue clause to be rather odd.
Rather silly and a bit on the amateurish side - but not at all uncommon, especially with hobby businesses (even million dollar hobby businesses). Everyone are friends and family (or something like that) so nothing could ever go sour to the point where we would need to litigate...
I know I have gotten a few looks and a bit of...perhaps hurt feelings?...when I have said that I will sign the contract after my lawyer looks it over. Even more so, when I bring back a redlined contract with additional clauses.
In my view, contracts are even more important when dealing with friends. You need a neutral, objective instrument to arbitrate any potential disputes as a means to help preserve an important relationship. I am fond of quoting Mattie Ross in many circumstances, but she is particularly apt here:
"I think Smallwood was a gentleman but gentlemen are only human and their memories can sometimes fail them. Business is business."
angryboy2k wrote: Regardless of the actual reason, the split between DS and FFG on the Dust brand appears to have been amicable.
I heard is was more along the lines of Dust wanting more freedom with their own IP than FFG agreements allow for, but as you say, regardless, based on the Xwing situation, it was as clearly amicable as these things can ever really be.
So Duncans implication that FFG were in some way badly treated by Dust Studios seems like something which needs expanding on.
Going public first the way DS did in nearly 99% of all cases means that your legal position is quite shaky and that you try to sway the public your way to create pressure.
Can you post a link to proof of that? Otherwise, I'll lump it in with Abraham Lincoln's famous quote about 98% of everything posted on the internet being inaccurate. That number isn't close to what I've seen anecdotally which is likely as the same source as the one you used.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: I'm curious as to whether or not Dust will survive. How many people have actually joined this "Dust Elites" club?
No idea but I suspect it'll become an order from Dust only niche game that almost no store will stock since they have to place a separate order.
1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed.
2. BF lacks the cash, so cannot honor the contract, even if they wanted to.
It is actually 3.
BF and DS are in disagreement whether enough stock was delivered vor the amount payed and BF is witholding further payment until that is figured out.
Going public first the way DS did in nearly 99% of all cases means that your legal position is quite shaky and that you try to sway the public your way to create pressure.
Yeah, I'm not buying it. If this wasn't crowdfunded I could see this being the case but in this situation I'm going to be inclined to side with the company giving information to the backers.
Also, glad that you are repeating the "We don't even need Dust" line from BF. Do you work directly for them or just do contract work?
angryboy2k wrote: Regardless of the actual reason, the split between DS and FFG on the Dust brand appears to have been amicable.
I heard is was more along the lines of Dust wanting more freedom with their own IP than FFG agreements allow for, but as you say, regardless, based on the Xwing situation, it was as clearly amicable as these things can ever really be.
So Duncans implication that FFG were in some way badly treated by Dust Studios seems like something which needs expanding on.
I have no real evidence for this, but I'm sure the split was multi-faceted. I think in terms of distribution I'm guessing DUST was also looking for a more global distributor. DUST has strong appeal in Europe and Australia. FFG's distribution had been mainly U.S. focused and weaker on a global level, hence one of the reasons for the recent merger with Asmodee. Battlefront had more global distribution in place (the quality is debatable of course) so probably felt like a better fit.
It's actually a quite usual contract-disagreement that most of times solved by a mediator. Sadly in this case DS deiced to take the public route.
It's been stated that 3rd party mediation had already been attempted. Generally airing dirty laundry publicly is bad business practice, but since a large part of the loss is potentially placed on the kickstarter backers, it is not only acceptable, but contractual (part of the kickstarter terms of use) to notify them what's happening. People have been wondering what's happened to their money and product and Battlefront has communicated next to nothing since the kickstarter's end.
More than DUST settles on Operation:Babylon - Paolo gives an exclusive interview on the Kickstarter
For many Dust Tactics, World of Dust & Dust Studios will be household names coming as they do from a long established game world all spun from the mind of Paolo Parente, the father of Dust.
And as such you may have also heard there are a few rumblings about the Battlefront Kickstarter Operation: Babylon, and its lack of appearing, via the post, in the houses of those who backed the Kickstarter campaign.
This is n interview with DUST creator, Paolo Parente
Dust is an alternate history Board Game/Wargame and soon to be online game and RPG which for many years has been inspiring modellers and gamers with its diverse and almost familiar walking tanks, nazi zombies, cyborg gorillas and a host of other WWII alternate nasties fuelled and inspired form the power of the mineral VK and the remnants of a crashed alien ship.
It's the same World War Two, it just evolved and shows no sign of ending.
In its most recent form Dust IP came into the care of Battlefront Games, high hopes of expanded lines and better distribution. The future looked very bright indeed, so much so when the Kickstarter was announced the boards literally 'lit up' with the voice and enthusiasm of the legions of old and new fans.
Operation Babylon, as it was called, was going to be a glowing success.
On June 19 2014 that success was confirmed for the 1,475 backers who are pledged $469,313 of hard earned cash well over the $50,000 target sought for the project.
Since then the talk and enthusiasm in all the forums and chat groups has slowly slipped from ecstatic excitement to near civil war as the fan base slowly fractures in the face of more and more apparently unanswered questions from Battlefront, the pledge management team who over saw the financials of the project.
Currently the casual viewer will see 'the silent concerned' who say little but are clicking like on various posts.
The 'be calm its okay, stay positives' who are focused on getting on with the game and prepared for the long wait without getting to distressed.
Finally what I'd call the 'vocals' who range from reasonable questioning to the troll like stirring one expects among any large Internet based groups. Arguments, confusion, allegations of all sorts seem to fly daily now and can't be ignored any longer.
Then on the 30th January 2015, the Grand Master, Paolo himself, who till now has been a voice of reason and support throws his cap in the ring and declares enough is enough.
Paolo today posts banners and avatars that call out for questions to be answered, he says he demands clarity and transparency form Battlefront, and importantly asks......where's the money?
So it is on this very public canvas that Wee Gamers felt it was only right to ask the questions to the only people who should know. that is the very publicly active father of Dust, Paolo, and the current Guardians of the Franchise, Battlefront Games.
Tonight we hear from Paolo, who has been quite open and eager to talk.
Paolo first of all thanks for taking the time at this seemingly stressful period to talk to Wee Gamers.
Let's get the ball rolling.
Paolo , what on earth is going on with Dust, and the Kickstarter? Where do things currently stand? Our understanding of these projects is you pitch your project, you set your goal. You raise your money - succeed or fail , and if you succeed you make your toys and deliver to your backers? What's gone wrong as you understand it?
Paolo:
"The public action that Dust Studio, with me as standard bearer, is taking has one goal only: push Battlefront to act with due diligence by honouring the Babylon Kickstarter Contract that they wrote themselves, pay the overdue fee to Dust Studio for manufacturing the goods and deliver them to the backers.
l attach here the contract and you are authorized to publish it.
Basically it reads that Battlefront is obliged to pay Dust Studio first. And in the case Dust Studio cannot manufacture the goods then Dust Studio is accountable.
Now, how the hell are we supposed to deliver something that has not been ordered or paid for???
Up to today we have not received the P.O. for the so called "Babylon Wave 2" or a full list of the items to be delivered. Dust Studio will be happy to deliver the goods as soon as Purchase Order is issued and paid for.
The production on the Wave 2 items is going on. We estimate that they will be ready by the end of March 2015.
We are manufacturing items based on the last received information dated November 2014 plus a small percentage extra, just in case the orders get bigger.
We know that Battlefront have been collecting orders and payments until January 2015.
We wait for Battlefront to honor their side of the deal."
Well, there you go. Paolo's side.
We have sent an email to Battlefront to see if they wish to give their side of the story.
Starfarer wrote:An interview with Paolo Parente regarding the current issues:
JohnHwangDD wrote: OK, I'm going to close with noting that calling someone out as an apologist may have been impolitic. Sorry for raising the heat.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Here's the thing: Nobody posting knows the full picture. It's a whole bunch of:
"I heard that..."
"I think..."
"It's gotta be..."
etc...
We see some of the pieces, but nobody here knows the full picture so we make guesses. Sometimes guesses can misconstrued as facts especially if people like what they're hearing because it fits their narrative of what's going on; they've made up their minds already.
All we know is the situation is messed up. Now we have to do the hardest thing to do on the internet: wait and see what happens. Why is this the best answer? I don't believe either party has any vested interested in screwing a lot of people out of our money. I believe that one party (probably both) will make good on the KS promises and I'm willing to wait and not rush to action.
I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
As a freelancer for many companies I am involved with most of them so I will abstain from taking sides with any company. But be assured that I know quite well what is going.
Re FFG: GW had nothing to do with it but the situation now is quite a Deja Vu from back then.
Also there will not be a lot about it on the internet cause any company with brains does not keep such things in public view. Business stuff ist best kept away from the internet cause there are to many wannabe-experts that interpret anything the way it pleases them.
And actually I don´t need to guess or search for stuff on the internet cause I get my info most of the times first hand. And those who know me longer on Dakka do know quite well that most of the times I am spot on.
And maybe there has been a mediation attempt, but it is not unusual that several mediations are needed to solve an issue. Even when lawyers are already involved. And for the time being the best thing to do is let the mediator and lawyers do their work and keep all others from assuming things. I wish DS would more closly follow this quite normal path, but honestly that has never been their strength and cost them quite some goodwill.
Asmodee and FFG: FFG already had some strong partners in Europe, but not in all parts. Also Asmodee is stronger in the non-hardcore gamers field. So it was quite a good idea to join forces (and include former good partners in this alliance) and create a company that more or less can begin to tackle big ones like Hasbro or Mattel.
DS and other distributors: The distributor for the German market supported DS long after FFG and DS parted ways, but suddenly the KS showed up and DS more or less circumvented them on the German market. That was reason for the distributor to finally part ways with them, too.
I do like DS but they have a nasty habit of punching partners on the nose for no apparent reason and this hurts them in the gaming business.
DS and X-Wing: Dust and X-Wing are two completly seperate businesses and they are treated as such. There are thank God quite some people at DS that can differentiate between the two. So, even if there was a disagreement with regard to Dust that is no reason not to do X-Wing cause a factory that does not produce anything costs you dearly.
Honestly folks, gaming business people are a lot more pragmatic than most gamers are and somteimes I wish it would trickle down.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
I'm confused: Is it the case that Dust Studios, (the company, not the game) have treated FFG and battlefront so badly, that no other distributor would ever work with them again, as you said,
or is it the case that Dust Studios is really mostly an ok company, that any pragmatic gaming business person, such as the ones at FFG who run xwing, would be be willing to work with again, also as you said?
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
As a freelancer for many companies I am involved with most of them so I will abstain from taking sides with any company. But be assured that I know quite well what is going.
Also there will not be a lot about it on the internet cause any company with brains does not keep such things in public view. Business stuff ist best kept away from the internet cause there are to many wannabe-experts that interpret anything the way it pleases them.
And actually I don´t need to guess or search for stuff on the internet cause I get my info most of the times first hand. And those who know me longer on Dakka do know quite well that most of the times I am spot on.
And maybe there has been a mediation attempt, but it is not unusual that several mediations are needed to solve an issue. Even when lawyers are already involved. And for the time being the best thing to do is let the mediator and lawyers do their work and keep all others from assuming things. I wish DS would more closly follow this quite normal path, but honestly that has never been their strength and cost them quite some goodwill.
DS and other distributors: The distributor for the German market supported DS long after FFG and DS parted ways, but suddenly the KS showed up and DS more or less circumvented them on the German market. That was reason for the distributor to finally part ways with them, too.
I do like DS but they have a nasty habit of punching partners on the nose for no apparent reason and this hurts them in the gaming business.
I gather the way you've been talking here and elsewhere on the internet (such as the facebook group) that you no longer do work for DUST. Did you get let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment? You've said very little about actual details, but a lot about how you want us to believe you know a lot, which makes me trust you less. I could very well be wrong, but I doubt that a freelance German translator is involved in higher-level business matters, so I assume your info isn't much more than industry gossip, not first-hand, just like most others.
Interesting that GF9 launched the Homelands board game website today, for release this month? http://homeland.gf9games.com/
I have a horse in this race, so I've been following this Dust Kickstarter news a bit. I wonder if allocating resources towards pushing this game out in order to secure cash has had an effect? I know I've been looking forward to this game as a gateway for my wife
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
As a freelancer for many companies I am involved with most of them so I will abstain from taking sides with any company. But be assured that I know quite well what is going.
Also there will not be a lot about it on the internet cause any company with brains does not keep such things in public view. Business stuff ist best kept away from the internet cause there are to many wannabe-experts that interpret anything the way it pleases them.
And actually I don´t need to guess or search for stuff on the internet cause I get my info most of the times first hand. And those who know me longer on Dakka do know quite well that most of the times I am spot on.
And maybe there has been a mediation attempt, but it is not unusual that several mediations are needed to solve an issue. Even when lawyers are already involved. And for the time being the best thing to do is let the mediator and lawyers do their work and keep all others from assuming things. I wish DS would more closly follow this quite normal path, but honestly that has never been their strength and cost them quite some goodwill.
DS and other distributors: The distributor for the German market supported DS long after FFG and DS parted ways, but suddenly the KS showed up and DS more or less circumvented them on the German market. That was reason for the distributor to finally part ways with them, too.
I do like DS but they have a nasty habit of punching partners on the nose for no apparent reason and this hurts them in the gaming business.
I gather the way you've been talking here and elsewhere on the internet (such as the facebook group) that you no longer do work for DUST. Did you get let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment? You've said very little about actual details, but a lot about how you want us to believe you know a lot, which makes me trust you less. I could very well be wrong, but I doubt that a freelance German translator is involved in higher-level business matters, so I assume your info isn't much more than industry gossip, not first-hand, just like most others.
But it's ok to trust paolo because he is in no way biased at all
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
As a freelancer for many companies I am involved with most of them so I will abstain from taking sides with any company. But be assured that I know quite well what is going.
Also there will not be a lot about it on the internet cause any company with brains does not keep such things in public view. Business stuff ist best kept away from the internet cause there are to many wannabe-experts that interpret anything the way it pleases them.
And actually I don´t need to guess or search for stuff on the internet cause I get my info most of the times first hand. And those who know me longer on Dakka do know quite well that most of the times I am spot on.
And maybe there has been a mediation attempt, but it is not unusual that several mediations are needed to solve an issue. Even when lawyers are already involved. And for the time being the best thing to do is let the mediator and lawyers do their work and keep all others from assuming things. I wish DS would more closly follow this quite normal path, but honestly that has never been their strength and cost them quite some goodwill.
DS and other distributors: The distributor for the German market supported DS long after FFG and DS parted ways, but suddenly the KS showed up and DS more or less circumvented them on the German market. That was reason for the distributor to finally part ways with them, too.
I do like DS but they have a nasty habit of punching partners on the nose for no apparent reason and this hurts them in the gaming business.
I gather the way you've been talking here and elsewhere on the internet (such as the facebook group) that you no longer do work for DUST. Did you get let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment? You've said very little about actual details, but a lot about how you want us to believe you know a lot, which makes me trust you less. I could very well be wrong, but I doubt that a freelance German translator is involved in higher-level business matters, so I assume your info isn't much more than industry gossip, not first-hand, just like most others.
But it's ok to trust paolo because he is in no way biased at all
Nope, never said that. It's important to bring all evidence together to help understand what's going on. I expect that if I were to sit down and chat with either Paolo or a higher-up at Battlefront I would get a very biased point of view. Supposed "insider" information often shares that same biased-ness, especially when things get personal. So you try and filter that info to pull out as much objective evidence as you can and piece things together.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
This.
Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.
Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!
The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.
Paid with a debit credit card. Can't do a charge back in the same way as a regular credit card/paypal.
Interestingly, they did send an invoice, and got a shipping confirmation. I mean it's two items for a total of 8 minis... but at least it's something? Really surprised to see stuff still shipping, especially 5 days after a ll this dropped.
If you read the kickstarter comments, folks are getting small partial orders with varying levels of stuff listed as out of stock (yet still available for sale on their site direct). Did the invoice state exactly what will be shipped and/or what wasn't or was it an invoice just for the order itself?
carboncopy wrote: It's important to bring all evidence together to help understand what's going on.
But this is KS! That never happens!
DI said he was a freelancer. That means he's hired for the duration of a project and no longer works for the company when the project is over. That's it. He's not "let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment".
My major beef in all this is the lack of sincerity and accountability from Battlefront. They have collected monies and now are failing to give an account of what those monies were spent on. While not a part of the past Kickstarter terms of use, it is part of the current terms for Kickstarter project creators to give an accounting if their project fails to deliver. By any measure it is indisputable that items shipped to some in the so called "Wave 1" are still outstanding to some backers, myself included.
warboss wrote: If you read the kickstarter comments, folks are getting small partial orders with varying levels of stuff listed as out of stock (yet still available for sale on their site direct). Did the invoice state exactly what will be shipped and/or what wasn't or was it an invoice just for the order itself?
The invoices show what shipped and lists the rest of the outstanding items as "Back ordered". This is appears disingenuous because we see pictures of Dust Studios items being produced, and have complaints of lack of orders from BF. How can it be back ordered when monies are being held due to a contract dispute?!? Seems to me if Battlefront was actually ordering, there would be invoices or POs between the two. The items shipped in this last go round were card packs... items that the Kicstarter promised backers but until now never delivered, while they showed up in retail outlets and web discounters in 2014.
carboncopy wrote: It's important to bring all evidence together to help understand what's going on.
But this is KS! That never happens!
DI said he was a freelancer. That means he's hired for the duration of a project and no longer works for the company when the project is over. That's it. He's not "let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment".
I have no idea about André's situation, but as a freelancer you are generally looking for repeat business, and businesses like to reuse freelancers for future projects, because it cuts down on time and cost to find new ones. So if I were looking for repeat business from my clients I wouldn't get into squabbles on the internet saying negative things about my client (professionally I'd stay out of all type conversations related to any clients or potential clients because it could impact future work). So I assume André has written off any future work from DS and am wondering what the story is behind that to assess how much of what he's saying comes from some kind of resentment.
I have no idea about André's situation, but as a freelancer you are generally looking for repeat business, and businesses like to reuse freelancers for future projects, because it cuts down on time and cost to find new ones. So if I were looking for repeat business from my clients I wouldn't get into squabbles on the internet saying negative things about my client (professionally I'd stay out of all type conversations related to any clients or potential clients because it could impact future work). So I assume André has written off any future work from DS and am wondering what the story is behind that to assess how much of what he's saying comes from some kind of resentment.
It's likely he formed his opinion of the company from conversations with FFG staff, which is where his information likely comes from. If I was told about a company doing things I didn't like, I wouldn't care about alienating them, especially if my actual clients held a similarly low opinion of said company. I'm not saying that this is the truth of this particular situation, as only DI can answer that part, but putting myself in another's shoes I'd not be so eager for work that I'd work with a company that is going to make my life difficult; there's a cost in dealing with unpleasant people that can't always be measured in dollars.
warboss wrote: (yet still available for sale on their site direct)
It's worth noting that if you're referring to Battlefront, "available to order from their site" means jack-all. You can place an order, then see it be placed on back order and then months later when the production run is completed they'll dispatch it. Heck, I ordered a dice tin and token set during their sale of those things because they were discontinuing them to never be sold again. Order placed the day the sale was active (which was actually early) and the tin was nearly immediately removed from the order because in reality I believe it'd been out of stock for years, at least in the US. It took them I think about a week in to remove things that they didn't actually have (though obviously it's somewhat unknowable what was never there and what had legitimately sold out in the interim).
So logistically, BF is way behind the times when it comes to the web and inventory, and I'd take the "available for sale" with more salt than this planet likely has on it if the store is BF. If you're referring to some other store then please disregard with my apologies.
Of course I do look for repeat business, but I also care for the reputation of my clients. And if they are endangering it by their very own actions I will tell them.
Besides, all I posted here is public domain. i.e. no NDA or similar thing is covering it and well known to people in the business. A lot of reserach is the foundation of my work and also goes into my business decissions.
Actually what I wrote everybody with business-experience could easily deduct for himself already from the stuff at hand.
MZ Looks like the folks over at Battlefraud put up 'Update 96' on their front page.
Like · · Share
CH The Battleboyz™ are in full effect on Dakka Dakka:
"1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed....See More
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
MZ Is that a cut and paste from Dakka Dakka? I never go there.
17 hrs · Like
CH yes
17 hrs · Like
MZ So much hyperbole, I'm not sure where to start.
17 hrs · Like
CH People have responded setting some things straight. I'm not a member, but i'm tempted to join just to argue with him about the SKU changeover.
17 hrs · Like · 1
RP They forgot to mention that BF shipped to retailers b4 actual backers of the KS and haven't sent a PO to DS.
17 hrs · Like · 4
SK And how they got $220,000 in the hole with DS in the first place..........They haven't explained that
17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka Dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy....
17 hrs · Like · 8
MJAM J...I thought that was Bell of Lost Souls
17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka puts BoLS to shame
17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ Fukka Fukka
17 hrs · Like · 2
RI Well it is a 40K board not really a table top board in general. What would you expect.
17 hrs · Like · 1
MJAM Lets show them Dakka Dakka boys how really Wacko we are and flood their pages!
17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ And...the post was made by none other than APH. I guess he chose his side. Understandable, but disappointing. He seemed like one of the more squared away folks.
17 hrs · Like
RI Hmmmmm... yeah no how about you use your time for something constructive M
17 hrs · Like · 1
RI Nah he won't gak where he eats I don't blame him for that.
17 hrs · Like
MJAM You know I was kidding R!
17 hrs · Like
MJAM He runs the Dust Website. I wonder how long it will be, before he shuts it down
17 hrs · Like
RI He is a BF employee. In fact someone probably said,"Hey your the PR guy get your ass out there and do some PR."
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
MZ I suspect that maybe it. But...the posts are still flying in the forum.
17 hrs · Like
SK Battlefront makes so much more than books and miniatures these days. They are now renowned purveyors of excuses and lies.
17 hrs · Like · 6
RI Game are suppose to make you think and use your mind. I don't think they are intended to make me think or use my mind the way I have been lately however...
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
SK And their post, still doesn't clarify if they have the money.
17 hrs · Like
DB Hey JMc i am a dust fan and on DakkaDakka, Damn that free speech ey!
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MJAM I thought those gorillas were supposed to have buzzsaws for hands!
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SK We're all guilty then. We paid money for services, and we all got screwed.
17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ So...anyone see that Dust thing happening? I hear it's a hoot.
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CStC There is more truth to that posting above on Dakka that you may know...that is why i have been as silent lately.
4 hrs · Like
CH Please elaborate
3 hrs · Like
KS Post the link ...please..thank you
3 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
GvR can anyone post evidence to link Duncan_Idaho from Dakka to AH?
the BF statement on their Dust page is the same as the statement up on the KS....See More
Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront? - Forum - DakkaDakka
BY DAKKADAKKA.COM
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MZ I'm not wading through all that. For some reason, I think Duncan_Idaho was with FFG.
1 hr · Edited · Like
MZ CStC...what did you mean with your post?
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TS Haven't read the whole thing yet, but I wonder if the guy who ordered/ pledged $1400 worth of product and was expecting all of it to arrive Feb 3rd got it (I'm guessing no)?
1 hr · Edited · Like
JMc Duncan Idaho is AW here, iirc 1 hr · Like · 2
GvR ah so it was only slander / disingenuous noise intended to continue to nudge the drama along?
1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Ahhh...that's right. I knew there was a connection to someone we knew. I blocked the little scamp about a year ago. I haven't been privy to his blatherings.
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TS Troll Level: A
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TS A didn't back the KS. I've asked him point blank multiple times if he's a backer. Always gives me a "that doesnt matter". He also likes to tell people he knows more than they do because "his name has appeared in gaming rulebooks".
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KSTS were did you read something about $1400
1 hr · Like
TS I believe page 3 of that dakka thread.
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TS I feel bad if the guys expecting his stuff.
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KS Thanks found it ...I thought someone posted my email sent to BF.
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MZ Someone quoted me too.
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MM This guy with the 1400$ order is BF troll if you ask me.
54 mins · Like
MZ Looks like the folks over at Battlefraud put up 'Update 96' on their front page. Like · · Share
CH The Battleboyz™ are in full effect on Dakka Dakka:
"1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed....See More 17 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
MZ Is that a cut and paste from Dakka Dakka? I never go there. 17 hrs · Like
CH yes 17 hrs · Like
MZ So much hyperbole, I'm not sure where to start. 17 hrs · Like
CH People have responded setting some things straight. I'm not a member, but i'm tempted to join just to argue with him about the SKU changeover. 17 hrs · Like · 1
RP They forgot to mention that BF shipped to retailers b4 actual backers of the KS and haven't sent a PO to DS. 17 hrs · Like · 4
SK And how they got $220,000 in the hole with DS in the first place..........They haven't explained that 17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka Dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.... 17 hrs · Like · 8
MJAM J...I thought that was Bell of Lost Souls 17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka puts BoLS to shame 17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ Fukka Fukka 17 hrs · Like · 2
RI Well it is a 40K board not really a table top board in general. What would you expect. 17 hrs · Like · 1
MJAM Lets show them Dakka Dakka boys how really Wacko we are and flood their pages! 17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ And...the post was made by none other than APH. I guess he chose his side. Understandable, but disappointing. He seemed like one of the more squared away folks. 17 hrs · Like
RI Hmmmmm... yeah no how about you use your time for something constructive M 17 hrs · Like · 1
RI Nah he won't gak where he eats I don't blame him for that. 17 hrs · Like
MJAM You know I was kidding R! 17 hrs · Like
MJAM He runs the Dust Website. I wonder how long it will be, before he shuts it down 17 hrs · Like
RI He is a BF employee. In fact someone probably said,"Hey your the PR guy get your ass out there and do some PR." 17 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
MZ I suspect that maybe it. But...the posts are still flying in the forum. 17 hrs · Like
SK Battlefront makes so much more than books and miniatures these days. They are now renowned purveyors of excuses and lies. 17 hrs · Like · 6
RI Game are suppose to make you think and use your mind. I don't think they are intended to make me think or use my mind the way I have been lately however... 17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
SK And their post, still doesn't clarify if they have the money. 17 hrs · Like
DB Hey JMc i am a dust fan and on DakkaDakka, Damn that free speech ey! 17 hrs · Like
MJAM I thought those gorillas were supposed to have buzzsaws for hands! 17 hrs · Like
SK We're all guilty then. We paid money for services, and we all got screwed. 17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ So...anyone see that Dust thing happening? I hear it's a hoot. 6 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
CStC There is more truth to that posting above on Dakka that you may know...that is why i have been as silent lately. 4 hrs · Like
CH Please elaborate 3 hrs · Like
KS Post the link ...please..thank you 3 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
GvR can anyone post evidence to link Duncan_Idaho from Dakka to AH?
the BF statement on their Dust page is the same as the statement up on the KS....See More Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront? - Forum - DakkaDakka BY DAKKADAKKA.COM 1 hr · Like
MZ I'm not wading through all that. For some reason, I think Duncan_Idaho was with FFG. 1 hr · Edited · Like
MZ CStC...what did you mean with your post? 1 hr · Like · 1
TS Haven't read the whole thing yet, but I wonder if the guy who ordered/ pledged $1400 worth of product and was expecting all of it to arrive Feb 3rd got it (I'm guessing no)? 1 hr · Edited · Like
JMc Duncan Idaho is AW here, iirc 1 hr · Like · 2
GvR ah so it was only slander / disingenuous noise intended to continue to nudge the drama along? 1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Ahhh...that's right. I knew there was a connection to someone we knew. I blocked the little scamp about a year ago. I haven't been privy to his blatherings. 1 hr · Edited · Like
TS Troll Level: A 1 hr · Like · 3
TS A didn't back the KS. I've asked him point blank multiple times if he's a backer. Always gives me a "that doesnt matter". He also likes to tell people he knows more than they do because "his name has appeared in gaming rulebooks". 1 hr · Like · 1
KSTS were did you read something about $1400 1 hr · Like
TS I believe page 3 of that dakka thread. 1 hr · Like
TS I feel bad if the guys expecting his stuff. 1 hr · Like
KS Thanks found it ...I thought someone posted my email sent to BF. 1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Someone quoted me too. 1 hr · Like · 1
MM This guy with the 1400$ order is BF troll if you ask me. 54 mins · Like
That post has been deleted now. I'd sure like to know who APH (Andrew Paul Haught I suppose) is in this thread here on Dakka, so we can identify the sock puppet. Does anyone know? Is it Moopy? Someone accused him of being a sock puppet earlier in the thread.
That post has been deleted now. I'd sure like to know who APH (Andrew Paul Haught I suppose) is in this thread here on Dakka, so we can identify the sock puppet. Does anyone know? Is it Moopy? Someone accused him of being a sock puppet earlier in the thread.
The term was "apologist", and no I'm not him. I'm a backer on Kickstarter (same handle on KS). You can always ask the people who traded with me here on Dakka if that's my name.
That post has been deleted now. I'd sure like to know who APH (Andrew Paul Haught I suppose) is in this thread here on Dakka, so we can identify the sock puppet. Does anyone know? Is it Moopy? Someone accused him of being a sock puppet earlier in the thread.
The term was "apologist", and no I'm not him. I'm a backer on Kickstarter (same handle on KS). You can always ask the people who traded with me here on Dakka if that's my name.
Lets not start a witch hunt. Thanks.
Sorry for putting your name out there.
For what it's worth, JohnHwangDD called you an apologist. Hekal Xul called someone a sock puppet - though it's not clear whom. One of the guys in the thread copied from Facebook (MZ - who if he's who I think he is is a jump-to-conclusions raving donkey-cave who has me blocked anyway) said that APH was posting in Dakka. I'd sure like to know who he thinks is APH although truth be told, I haven't seen anyone in this thread acting much like a sock puppet.
I've not got a horse in this race, but BoW were talking about this this morning, who do have a relationship with both dust and battlefront.
The vibe I got from them was basically both sides are being dumb. So its probably not the case of one side being right, the other being wrong. But both of them have likely screwed up various things.
New update on Kickstarter. It basically says to calm the hells down, they're getting it sorted.
So much nerd wrath "I backed a kickstarter knowing their timelines only slightly more solid than Valve release schedules, and now I want my stuff right now!"
But it sounds like there are those who got the wrong pieces due to miscommunications between the two companies. Those guys have legit complaints.
Edit: correction: The update was yesterday. that still new?
No need to panic, guys. The kickstarter update said everything is fine.
You know... I hope the entire company vanishes to a no-extradition country and you guys never get an update.
That's not going to happen of course, because Battlefront is a legit company, unlike Dust studios.
Yeah, if backers can't appreciate that this whole project is barely worth the mighty Battlefronts attention, and that any update at all should be accepted at face value with unquestioning trust, then you don't deserve to have been allowed to back this project.
There might not be one party at fault, even if legal-wise there has to be one party at fault.
The fact of the matter is, businesses are people. A lot of my experiences lately has made me realize that more than anything, people make all sorts of personal decisions and mistakes while doing business. At this scale, most businesses are more people than corporate machines.
So this could be a huge misunderstanding that just needs to play out through whatever arbitration they can get.
Even if a contract was signed, there may have been drastically different expectations in mind while signing it. I'm willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt while this plays out.
Or the terms of the contract(s) elsewhere were not met which had a knock-on effect to this one. As people have pointed out, there's only one side sharing information publicly and of course they're going to do it in a way that suits their interests. Also, I'll repeat my belief that the first company that goes to the court of public opinion does so because they know they're weak in actual courts. The tone of BoW's comments implies that they believe both sides have been legitimately wronged in the relationship to date, but obviously their interest in appearing neutral is almost certainly a factor.
In the end though, those guys have the right of it. It doesn't matter who did what before. What matters is that for the sake of those people who had faith in both companies, they need to get over themselves and reach some sort of solution sooner than later.
Something that seems to have gone unmentioned either in the links or on here is that Battlefront have been having some trouble with their release schedule for Flames of War for over a year. The front page has a two-month release schedules, it's supposed to be 'this month and next month' but frequently slips to the point where they only add the current month in the first week OF the month. At one point (I forget if it was last year or the year before) they had to take the new releases down for a month because the last month's had slipped and they didn't even know when it would be available. This was also about the time people were complaining about serious issues getting existing products from them. One of the rumours - which I didn't set much score by at the time - floating around the net was that they'd had a cashflow problem with regards to paying the factory. So I'm a bit skeptical about Battlefronts claim to be an unstoppable juggernaut that could pay for DT ten times over..
Krinsath wrote: Also, I'll repeat my belief that the first company that goes to the court of public opinion does so because they know they're weak in actual courts.
I don't put any stock in that at all in this case. This is a crowdfunded project, not some private endeavour between the two companies. Dust Studios name is on the KS but they aren't able to communicate with the backers directly as BF is in charge of those channels.
Communication is everything in KS and DS are providing it while BF want backers to trust that everything is fine.
If anything I think BFs silence with vague suggestions that DS isn't playing ball by meeting with a mediator supports DS' narrative.
We'll see...or we won't. Hopefully everyone gets their stuff and DUST can find a consistent home.
Krinsath wrote: Also, I'll repeat my belief that the first company that goes to the court of public opinion does so because they know they're weak in actual courts.
I don't put any stock in that at all in this case. This is a crowdfunded project, not some private endeavour between the two companies. Dust Studios name is on the KS but they aren't able to communicate with the backers directly as BF is in charge of those channels.
Communication is everything in KS and DS are providing it while BF want backers to trust that everything is fine.
If anything I think BFs silence with vague suggestions that DS isn't playing ball by meeting with a mediator supports DS' narrative.
We'll see...or we won't. Hopefully everyone gets their stuff and DUST can find a consistent home.
Keep in mind that Dust Studios was so invested in the KS that Paolo can't comment because he didn't even put in a $1 pledge to be able to do so but even that fact is somewhat immaterial. Obviously he's able to communicate with backers simply though Facebook and the relaying of messages. He can't post an update, sure, and that's a major hamstring to reaching ALL backers, but that was the trade-off he made by allowing BF to run it nor has it seemed to impact his goals thus far of stirring up a wider audience to these goings-on (case in point: this thread).
However, BF isn't saying everything is fine; they're saying that things are wrong and there's a proper way to resolve them that Dust refuses to engage in. This is the behind-the-scenes business dealings that typically go on regularly and don't get mentioned. Now, DS might have solid reasons for refusing, as likely they're coming out of such a deal worse off, but don't forget that such a refusal is their role in holding things up. At the end of the day the backers really don't care who is to blame or who has broken what clause of which contract (remembering we have not seen all contracts); the backers want what they paid for and they are right to demand these two companies stop behaving like children and get back to the work of fulfillment.
Both companies are to blame at this point from what I can observe. Paolo's allegations that BF's demands in mediation are ridiculous could be true, but that's the nature of negotiation. You ask for ridiculous so you have space to move down; nor is a mediator worth their salt going to allow for the "ridiculous" position to be the one a company stays at when they finally get everything done. As Warren at BoW says, agree to binding mediation (assuming the laws applicable allow it; between NZ and HK, who knows) and get at it. As a compromise no party is likely to leave happy, but there will be an answer and a way forward.
It really seems like both sides are using the backers as pawns in this dispute with BF using their money/orders while DS tries to encourage their outrage to apply pressure. Honestly, I don't think it reflects well on either company, and they sooner they realize that these antics are only harming them both the better.
mitch_rifle wrote: I'd wait and see what's going on perhaps the Dust guys aren't holding up their part of the contract or something
I'd fail to see why such a large and successful company as battlefront would actually do this and compromise their entire business
This seems like the most likely to me, Paolo has never seemed like the most reliable chap to me, and I heard there were issues when he was working with FFG.
Battlefront on the other hand is a company that I have a great depth of experience and a long term relationship with, they might do some boneheaded stuff now and then, but they always deliver and they go to great length to take care of their customers. As mentioned, they still do the free rulebook upgrade thing every edition, and their edition changes are nowhere near as common as other games. We're on edition three now and unlikely to go anywhere any time soon. There's no need to, as Phil and the lads have made a very balanced and easy to play game with a great set of rules. Why fix what isn't broke when you can do the fun stuff and introduce new armies and parts of history instead?
As far as BF going out of business? Utter hogwash. Their board games through their GF9 label have been absolute world beaters, they can't even keep in stock, they just cut a great deal on books which let them lower their prices to save their players money, and are heavily investing in a fantastic plastics range. That is not the behavior of a company on shaky legal ground.
Now I have a bit of a hat in this as I am waiting for a few figures from the Dust KS, just the sisters and a couple heroes but I'll wait for an official statement from Battlefront or Dust Studios, I'm not trusting some random yahoo with an alleged email as "Oh well now I know everything about this."
Dust Studios is a company that if you want charges you a (either monthly or annual, can't remember) fee granting you the privilege of buying exclusive models on their site.
Not that uncommon. Old Glory, Acheson Creations, and others have "memberships" where you pay an annual fee, and they knock a percentage off all your orders, often with some kind of bonus attached.
In this case I'm not really seeing the benefits, not unless you and a group decide to buy bulk or the like. Plus they aren't exactly releasing an awful lot of garage kits like they used to.
Why? Dust is a completely separate manufacturing and shipping track. Hell outside of Battle Front's distributing the stuff it's a separate company. The plastics switch was all on the table and being done long before they decided to partner with Dust.
I think Andre is referring to previous comments about BF experiencing delays on FoW product and restock. He's jumping in front of any BF related bullets.
Ah okay. BF has long standing shipping issues and production slow downs for one reason or another, that's one of the issues with a world wide distribution network, sometimes ship happens. (pun intended) I'd wager he's right, and that some of it is accounted for with the switch over to plastics and the SKU reorganization, but some of it's probably just business as usual.
Well you know how Dust doest really currently exist, and FLGS are really just selling what they had in the warehouse, and how Dust's only chance of survival was a kickstarter partnership? (Even though it has fantastic game mechanics for short skirmishes)
And you know how all over the nation there are stores entirely devoted to Flames of War?
And you know how all over the nation there are stores entirely devoted to Flames of War?
This is news to me.
You sure you're not thinking of the Games Workshop stores that sell Warhammer 40k? I know they're pretty similar.....
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Pyeatt wrote: Well you know how Dust doest really currently exist, and FLGS are really just selling what they had in the warehouse, and how Dust's only chance of survival was a kickstarter partnership? (Even though it has fantastic game mechanics for short skirmishes)
You do realize that the partnership for Dust, as distributed by Battlefront, is far older than the KS, right? I mean, do you actually know what you're talking about here? Or are you just saying the first things that come to mind?
It's all very confusing, the misinformation you're throwing out.
In fairness, he could just be horrible at written communication. "Entirely devoted" can mean "committed to carrying" as well as "exclusively carrying" which in turn means he was saying that there are FLGS across the country who would order more FoW stock/products in a second, but are leery about ordering anything from Dust. Terrible writing to leave multiple valid meanings to a phrase on the table by failing to give context, but that statement is...probably true, though somewhat irrelevant.
Especially if BF is throttling distribution of one and not the other due to this dispute; you'll find store owners are often risk-averse and BF's behavior in general plus this disagreement makes Dust a real risk right now. Few owners want to sell something off the shelf that they can't support properly as that just leads to angry customers. If FLGS start to feel that Dust isn't worth the hassle, then of course they're not going to be expanding their stock. They'll find something more reliable to stick on the shelves to make money.
I admit though that just going with the fanciful idea that FoW could sustain a retail outlet on its own to be much funnier to envision. Even GW struggles to make that work well and they have a logistics chain to put BF's to shame (not that this is hard...).
Alpharius wrote: What this thread actually needs is to stay on topic and avoid anything even resembling a personal attack...
Arthur Dent?
Arthur Phillip Dent?
You are a jerk Arthur Dent.
In fact, You are a complete knee biter.
Like some others, I am suspicious of Dust taking this to the court of public opinion.
We really don't have enough information to gauge who is in the wrong, since BF seems to be following the more accepted route of seeking independent arbitration.
It is what arbitration is for.
The court of public attention has no bearing on either the legal aspect nor on production of the game.
Likely, both companies are in the wrong on some level - but Dust is more invested in the outcome - both financially and emotionally. Contract discussions are falling apart, and Paolo is feeling a great deal of pressure - likely much more than his counterpart in BF.
But settling the matter requires the exact opposite of an emotional response - it needs a dialogue between the two parties, with an agreed desired result - the production of the game.
Either that or a caged death match - two game designers go in, only one game designer comes out....
I don't think the "why was BF $200k behind in payments" question is being asked nearly enough. With that info on the table, I have trouble understanding how one can rationalize siding with/believing BF at this point.
cincydooley wrote: I don't think the "why was BF $200k behind in payments" question is being asked nearly enough. With that info on the table, I have trouble understanding how one can rationalize siding with/believing BF at this point.
You're right that the situation leading up to that is probably a huge piece of the puzzle.
However, without greater information (which is unlikely to be forthcoming) that's nearly impossible to say. It could be a situation like Wargames Factory pre-takeover where they ordered a ton of stuff on credit but never paid; this would be fairly negligent by Dust Studios, but such things do happen (obviously since I gave a different example). I suspect that amount is actually at the core of the contract dispute and when the KS failed to raise enough capital to make business work out, things deteriorated to the point we're at now. People more versed in contracts/inter-company dealings might have better insight into how such a thing would develop though, as while each situation is unique there might be some explanation they've seen which aligns to what we do know.
All of that is and will be speculation though as the reality of the situation is most likely governed by contracts that are not in public knowledge, and also very likely include confidentiality clauses that prohibit their disclosure.
All i can say is that bf manufacturing sucks really bad, never enough stock and are very slow.also they are in a transistion peorid for the facilities and location.i hope this situation is rectified justly because i really do like BF alot and some things are just out of their hands and are on the contractors.
I have to agree with that I haven't had anything from BF arrive in any kind of reasonable time in almost 18 months. I'm currently waiting on orders I made in December. :(
BrookM wrote: In this case I'm not really seeing the benefits, not unless you and a group decide to buy bulk or the like. Plus they aren't exactly releasing an awful lot of garage kits like they used to.
The Dust Elite membership is actually quite a good deal if you intend to buy a lot of prepaints.
If you spend over $1,000 in a year (which is *not* hard when some of the models are $100 each), you get 10% off. Plus, you won't have to pay the registration fee the next year.
To me, it looks like Battlefront thinks they're at the part of the contract where Dust Studios is on the hook for the rest of the costs, and DS thinks that their still owed something by BF.
Nothing has changed. The 409k they paid to ds includes the debt they owed to dust anyway. But it sounds like they didn't consider just who would pay for all those free stretch goals. Which is really dumb
Sining wrote: Nothing has changed. The 409k they paid to ds includes the debt they owed to dust anyway. But it sounds like they didn't consider just who would pay for all those free stretch goals. Which is really dumb
But add in the 25% reserved for shipping as stated in the contract, and boom, all the money is gone. They basically admitted that all the KS money is spent. And from the contract it makes it look like Dust Studios is on the hook in the event that happens, since they are responsible for all refunds in the event the project don't ship.
Which would explain why Paolo was trying to get the order amounts from the backers directly I guess. Overall I'd say bf got nowhere near the money they thought they would get with this and are trying to renegotiate
Sining wrote: Nothing has changed. The 409k they paid to ds includes the debt they owed to dust anyway. But it sounds like they didn't consider just who would pay for all those free stretch goals. Which is really dumb
But add in the 25% reserved for shipping as stated in the contract, and boom, all the money is gone. They basically admitted that all the KS money is spent. And from the contract it makes it look like Dust Studios is on the hook in the event that happens, since they are responsible for all refunds in the event the project don't ship.
But that assumes that BF provides the information to DS. BF failing to pay and denying DS the ability to fulfill would not hold as an argument.
But that assumes that BF provides the information to DS. BF failing to pay and denying DS the ability to fulfill would not hold as an argument.
I was operating under the assumption that BF's latest statement was accurate and that all order information had been provided along with 400K worth of funds. Of course if that update is not truthful, then that assumption is less valid.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Sure, OK, tho I wonder who holds and manages the shipping funds.
From the contract, to my armature reading, it looks like BF. It says "shall be reserved" in the context of BF distributing the funds. I take that to mean that they would hold on to that money.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking back at the contract and the KS pledge levels, It looks like their goals here where totally unreasonable. I'm seeing what looks like a 60% markup on the rewards. That means that all other costs considered(KS cut, shipping, that 200K of debt), they would have needed to clear nearly a million dollars to break even.
This may all hinge on what "+Bonus figure free" on the amry deals means in the contract. It may be that BF is going on the presumption that that is all the free items on the standard pledge while DS is being more literal in the interpretation.
Assuming that the published contract is real, doesn't the point "200k $ of the money is for paying previous debts" contradict the KS terms as all the money has to be invested in the project?
JohnHwangDD wrote: So DS is shipping on BF's account, against the 25%? That might explain why BF stopped providing order information to DS.
Except DS isn't the one doing the shipping to backers. It's BF. And reading the contract, it doesn't say BF gives the shipping money to DS but rather that money be set aside for that.
I really think this is more of a case the KS didn't do nearly as well as they expected. But then again, if it didn't, they should have been more careful about all those free stretchgoals they were giving then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghrik wrote: Assuming that the published contract is real, doesn't the point "200k $ of the money is for paying previous debts" contradict the KS terms as all the money has to be invested in the project?
I doubt KS will care. And I assume that most recent KS have some sort of profit margin calculated into them, which already means not all money is invested into the project
I doubt KS will care. And I assume that most recent KS have some sort of profit margin calculated into them, which already means not all money is invested into the project
Surely KS won't care (I had this at 2 other cases), but calculating with profit margin (which is fine, no one makes a project just for fun) is something different than using a huge part of the money to pay non-KS related debts.
I'm in a quite comfortable position as I got everything except the free stuff but it is still annoying. In my gaming area Dust startet quite well with a sigificant decline with the transition from FFG to BF but now I fear that it is basically the end for the system. Most of the FLGS in my area don't sell it anymore. I had a long talk with the owner of my favourite FLGS about that topic as he still sells Dust but he was quite shocked about the situation.
I know and quite understandable that FLGS react like that. Zombicide got a similar treatment from my favourite FLGS until the German version was released last year.
As I bought the last remains of Dust in an FLGS nearby (@Duncan: Stronghold in LB) he told me that a lot of gamers also did not like the warfare rules and therefore dropped the game. But as I am a painter and a Tactics player I cannot confirm if this is just a local incident. I never tried the Warfare rules.
Ghrik wrote: I know and quite understandable that FLGS react like that. Zombicide got a similar treatment from my favourite FLGS until the German version was released last year.
As I bought the last remains of Dust in an FLGS nearby (@Duncan: Stronghold in LB) he told me that a lot of gamers also did not like the warfare rules and therefore dropped the game. But as I am a painter and a Tactics player I cannot confirm if this is just a local incident. I never tried the Warfare rules.
I play warfare and have not heard too much criticism of it, I personally think it is a pretty good rule-set (though it is an I-go-you-go, but with reaction mechanics).
The main person who seems to hate it is Paolo, from what I heard because FFG made some changes to how weapons worked.
This hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet (that I can see, so apologies if I missed it) but it appears that the link to Battlefront's Dust site has been deactivated.
This was one of my bookmarked sites: www.dust-tactics.com
When I tried using it a moment ago, I was taken to my providers page of website suggestions.
Interesting… make that sad… development. Can't say I'm surprised, since many of the recent threads' subjects were about "when will I get my stuff" or "what is happening and who will fix it".
So battlefield ran that site? If so, I guess they're playing public hardball now beyond just keeping quiet and shipping nothing while not giving refunds.
There are a lot of inconsistencies in BFs last update which reads more like a cut and paste of the Beats of War vlog rather than an accurate description of the financial situation.
They skirt around the payment issue by stating "but we gave DS 400K" without mentioning, against the terms, they paid off their existing debt from Achilles etc with the bulk of our money first. Debt that was outstanding according to Paolo for in excess of 120 days.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul. There's a large discrepancy also between the number of backers from the KS page and the number that they quote with reference to the purchase order data they sent 3 months ago. Maybe explains the massive stock shortages and the fact that some have backers received nothing?
This wave nonsense as well, considering they're shipping increasingly smaller percentages of stock (if at all) must be eating into that reserved shipping allowance without achieving much.
Not intending to derail the thread, but it is rather strange to me that the company that became the distributor for the Dust Tactics game (and the more enjoyable Dust Battlefield game, because TTG versus board game FTW please) changes their domain name to include the name of the game developed by the last partner.
Hmm.
I have nothing further to add. Thanks for the link, Hekal Xul.
Not intending to derail the thread, but it is rather strange to me that the company that became the distributor for the Dust Tactics game (and the more enjoyable Dust Battlefield game, because TTG versus board game FTW please) changes their domain name to include the name of the game developed by the last partner.
Hmm.
I have nothing further to add. Thanks for the link, Hekal Xul.
They didn't change the address. Dust-tactics.com and Dustwarfare.com have always gone to the same page. Basically when they initially set it up, it was only Dust-tactics.com and Warfare players through a hissy fit about it, so they added the dustwarfare.com domain to appease them. Still odd the page is down though.
Since this appears to be devolving fast, my personal take is that it's time to start asking for refunds. I would urge everyone reading this to request a refund for anything not yet delivered, and to file complaints with your local AG's or Consumer Protection office, in addition to the AG for the state of Maryland.
Battlefront Miniatures North America
500 Principio Parkway West
Suite 100
North East, Maryland 21901
United States of America
Major Malfunction wrote: http://worldofdust.net appears to still be working. Guess they overlooked it.
Since this appears to be devolving fast, my personal take is that it's time to start asking for refunds. I would urge everyone reading this to request a refund for anything not yet delivered, and to file complaints with your local AG's or Consumer Protection office, in addition to the AG for the state of Maryland.
Battlefront Miniatures North America 500 Principio Parkway West Suite 100 North East, Maryland 21901 United States of America
Phone: 844-239-1768 (Toll Free)
Update: The US toll free number listed on the Flames of War and Gale Force 9 pages has been disconnected. Money troubles maybe?
Perhaps they anticipated this and are trying to shut down a run on the bank so to speak?
Still having a hard time believing this is malicious on Battlefront's end though. Anyone who knows remotely anything about Flames of War knows Battlefront couldn't get a release right if their life depended on it, why should this be different? I've had models that took 6 MONTHS to get in, models that already had the molds done and had been released for years, and that's considered fairly normal amongst the FoW community. I'm kind of amazed people didn't notice this when they were researching the two companies before backing, I would have thought that the constant delays Battlefront is notorious for would be a huge red flag in it's own right.
I didn't back this kickstarter, but I hope it gets resolved amicably and soon. I may not play Dust, but I do like Flames of War and if Battlefront goes down or even just gets burned a bit it will be a big blow in terms of what minis you can get for the historical 15mm market. They provide a lot of niche nations that most other companies don't bother with, and are starting to get some very nice plastics turned out that can finally compete with PSC's like the Panther and APC kits. Not to mention that sales for companies like PSC, Peter Pig, and Forged in Battle would probably see a decrease in sales as well.
This being said, I was stupid enough to buy from Defiance Games when they first opened up with the UMCA or whatever they were called, so I would take anything I ever say about companies not being evil and just incompetent with a massive grain of salt
I wonder if BF decided that this wasn't a relationship they wanted to maintain once the KS didn't explode and decided to end it in a terrible way?
Or DS decided the same thing for different reasons.
I can't imagine the previous relationship continuing once this is all resolved.
Dust Studio and Battlefront are having issues with the release of Project Babylon, the next expansion for the popular alternate-history Dust game. We’ve recently heard from Battlefront, and have been in contact with Dust Studio. Here’s the latest reply, straight from Mr. Paolo Parente.
When in Spring 2013 Dust Studio and FFG decided to split, FFG offered to honor the time clause of our agreement
that obliged them to buy what was called Wave 8 and 9 of products: The miniatures around the Campaign Box “Operation Achilles” to be precise, three months of releases plus the wave around the Second Edition of the rules (another 3 months of releases).
Battlefront was eager to start distributing DT immediately and decided to offer FFG to buy wave 8 instead of them. For Dust Studio it looked good because BF was giving higher margins than FFG, for FFG was good because they were set free from their contractual obligations. ln short everybody was happy…
Wave 9 was planned to be released in Autumn 2013, this was about the New Starter Sets, 2nd Edition Rulebook and a few re-edition of older models. Dust Studio had financed this wave under a Factoring Bank that basically anticipated the funds to us based on the Purchase Orders released by BF in January 2014 (attached).
BF had 90 days as payment terms. They had to pay for the goods directly to the Factoring Bank. Unfortunately that payment never happened (breach of the distribution contract) and of course the Bank started chasing us first and subsequently BF.
at this time we assumed that BF were in light financial troubles
so we did not decide to stop working with them but tried to find a
way to help instead.
Spring 2014. In those very stressful days we decided to run a KS to release new items (there was a lack of new products releases on the market) and at the same time raise funds and allow BF to pay their debts towards the Factoring Bank.
We proposed a typical KS agreement where both parties equally shared the profits. BF refused that agreement and proposed the one attached here. Where BF would simply buy the goods from DS and
keep the profits for them mainly to ensure the payment of those overdue invoices to the Factoring Bank.
Dust Studio CEO Mr. William Yau reluctantly signed the agreement and the Babylon KS campaign started.
The agreement obliged BF to immediately pay Dust Studio for the goods upon receiving the funds. This was done on October 7 2014, the attachment named DS 141K. This was the payment for
the so called “Babylon Wave 1″. Of Course before that BF paid the Factoring Bank DBS those overdue invoices (breach of our KS agreement).(attachment DBS 220K)
Data about the sales NOT a Purchase Order was given to DS in November ?and we all know that BF have been collecting orders and Payments via the Pledge Manager until January 2015 (2 more months). Making the data received in November not accurate at all.
Without ever passing us the data of the totals of miniatures sold, nor a P.O. or a payment.
Tired of begging for what is simply due to us Dust Studio have decided to share this information
with the public.
We just want what is ours, complete production and deliver the goods to the backers.
Who in the end, like us, deserve much better than being fooled around, right?
Discussions rotate around the free items that BF offered during the KS campaign. They refuse to pay DS for them. Now this would be natural if our contract did not see DS as a mere manufacturer. But since BF decided not to share the profits DS CEO refuses to share the losses and insists for BF to honor the contract.
The Backers money has payed for their debts basically giving them months of releases for free, which they keep selling making profits…
BrookM wrote: Maybe it's just me, but rather unprofessional to share those two documents like that.
The only thing I see as unprofessional is BFs handling of the Dust license, the relationship with their business partner, the way they have treated the KS backers and their organisation of the KS..
Excellent share and some real home truths revealed.
And, to be fair. BF are doing an awesome job of trashing the present and future reputation of his creation. Maybe this will be the death of their partnership, who knows?
It would mean though that BF miss out on a great financial opportunity, but Paolo's would be stuck with a brand that no-one will want to touch.
BrookM wrote: Maybe it's just me, but rather unprofessional to share those two documents like that.
The only thing I see as unprofessional is BFs handling of the Dust license, the relationship with their business partner, the way they have treated the KS backers and their organisation of the KS..
Excellent share and some real home truths revealed.
If everything that DS has said is true then BF will get none of my money and I will spread the word to my gaming groups not to buy any BF products (not that I or they do but I definitely won't now!).
BrookM wrote: Maybe it's just me, but rather unprofessional to share those two documents like that.
I would not call it unprofessional since per the Kickstarter terms of service backers have a right to know about any delays and what steps are being taken to resolve them.
BF is basically remaining silent besides a few "updates" which more or less say nothing. Keep in mind these were only sent out after DS went public about the issues forcing BF into a position where they had to say something.
Paolo seems to be looking out for his IP, which is his livelihood. What does he have to lose at this point? If everyone stays silent and we knew nothing of delays the game would be taking just as bad of a hit as if he speaks out in an "unprofessional" manner. Even the most ardent supporters are on the verge of bailing, and I don't blame Paolo one bit for going public on this.
As for Major Malfunction's advice, I don't know if getting a refund will work at this point. Granted, I got mine back, but it took three months of badgering, and finally informed them I had hired an attorney(he happens to be a close friend and this cost me nothing, so I can't say that is advisable for everyone).
I would say everyone who is a backer needs to report this to Kickstarter. They are honestly unlikely to do anything, but enough reports my raise a red flag and get them to step in. This is a clear breach of Kickstarter TOS to pay outstanding debts with KS funds, and I think it really damages the credibility of their reputation if they do nothing to enforce their own TOS. Then again, if they aren't notified they won't know, so go report it if you backed it!
BrookM wrote: Maybe it's just me, but rather unprofessional to share those two documents like that.
What I think is unprofessional is to take money from people under the premise of an accelerated delivery schedule, and then short the people that funded the whole expedition on their orders while you deliver the very same items to your business customers because they have store accounts with you.
Maybe, or that was just Paolo trying to paint BF in as negative a light as possible. I could be that DS came after BF for that 200K at a bad time. Even a successful small company is going to have issues with that much money without breaking it into installments. Their working relationship was pretty new, so there could have been some miscommunication about expectations.
I do find the whole factor bank thing confusing. So Dust takes money from they bank to manufacture a wave, but BF has to pay the bank? Maybe someone who know manufacturing/finance can explain that better.
I ran some numbers based on the what was in the contract and the pledge levels. There wasn't enough money to pay for the rewards and the 200K dept. By paying the bank off first, that left DS on the hook for the shortfall. The contract does look like BF should have payed for the KS rewards first, and the bank with the remainder. So, not cool BF. On the other hand, does it really matter? They where still going to be in debt no matter how you cut it. And that doesn't even account for who was paying for all the stretch goal freebies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, looked up what a Factor bank was. It's a bank you sell your accounts receivable to(usually at a discount). So it looks like BF sent an invoice with orders for wave 9 to DS, who then sold that invoice to a factor bank for cash right away. I don't know if that is a standard thing companies do, but if maybe BF wasn't expecting that, I could see that as a cause for friction in their business relationship.
Ok, looked up what a Factor bank was. It's a bank you sell your accounts receivable to(usually at a discount). So it looks like BF sent an invoice with orders for wave 9 to DS, who then sold that invoice to a factor bank for cash right away. I don't know if that is a standard thing companies do, but if maybe BF wasn't expecting that, I could see that as a cause for friction in their business relationship.
I suspect the bigger cause of friction would be BF receiving $200,000 worth of merchandise and promising to pay within 3 months only to still have an outstanding bill for the amount 7 months later... and then robbing peter to pay paul (breaking their word yet again via their kickstarter terms) and then not having enough yet again to pay for models. At least this time to their credit, DS didn't just fork over the models on a promise to pay but wants the money upfront.
Paolo seems to be looking out for his IP, which is his livelihood. What does he have to lose at this point? If everyone stays silent and we knew nothing of delays the game would be taking just as bad of a hit as if he speaks out in an "unprofessional" manner. Even the most ardent supporters are on the verge of bailing, and I don't blame Paolo one bit for going public on this.
I am not sure if this is the way to go, the openly way in which this is happening may be detrimental to the brand.
I hope it doesn't take down both companies
All sounds like palo taking advantage of the situation to get BF to pay off outstanding debt from ffg era and then screw them over so they can distribute direct.
Still having a hard time believing this is malicious on Battlefront's end though. Anyone who knows remotely anything about Flames of War knows Battlefront couldn't get a release right if their life depended on it, why should this be different? I've had models that took 6 MONTHS to get in, models that already had the molds done and had been released for years, and that's considered fairly normal amongst the FoW community. I'm kind of amazed people didn't notice this when they were researching the two companies before backing, I would have thought that the constant delays Battlefront is notorious for would be a huge red flag in it's own right.
Backtracking a bit and adding.
BF's responsibility in this undertaking was to organise the KS first then handle the distribution second. Here they weren't even directly involved in the hub distro. that was allocated to the company that supplies BF products locally.
All of the manufacturing/packaging etc which in itself is a fair undertaking, was handled by DS. BF's crucial part in the KS was to collate numbers of items required based on information submitted in the Pledge Manager, make out a purchase order and send it to DS. Basically an administrative middleman position.
That's all they had to do....
So, people could be forgiven in thinking surely they can't f@#$ this up? There's even comments on the KS page that reflect this.
Now according to Paolo they were still at in January and he's asked the backers to circumvent BF and send their invoices to him directly ? Seriously?
And communication, something that's crucial in running a business especially one that revolves around a socially interactive hobby and an avenue that's so easy to access these days..
How to they rate?
F@#$ing hopeless.
My hope, beyond the KS, is that they ditch any thought of continuing with BF. And that comes from knowing about their rep previously, seeing how they handled the license (on the forum, blog etc) plus their attitude to the gamers/fans of the universe be it KS related or whatnot. Plus there's no denying they have financial issues. Toxic, get rid of them.
From worldofdust.net in regards to dust-tactics.com not working:
Until recently, this website was accessible through several different domain names. One of these, www.dust-tactics.com, is owned by Dust Studios, who have decided to discontinue this domain.
From now on, the best way to access this site is to use the domain www.worldofdust.net. The website content remains unchanged, and will continue to offer support for Dust Tactics, Dust Tactics Battlefield and Dust Warfare, along with our active discussion forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, looked up what a Factor bank was. It's a bank you sell your accounts receivable to(usually at a discount). So it looks like BF sent an invoice with orders for wave 9 to DS, who then sold that invoice to a factor bank for cash right away. I don't know if that is a standard thing companies do, but if maybe BF wasn't expecting that, I could see that as a cause for friction in their business relationship.
As someone who works in a manufacturing/exports industry, factoring is a VERY normal thing to do. And iirc, it's the person who's owed the money who has to pay a certain % to get the money earlier than stated in the invoice. So in this case, it would be DS who's paying a certain % to get the money. I don't see how this affects BF at all, other than the fact that banks are probably a lot harder to 'negotiate' BF-style with than smaller manufacturers.
BrookM wrote: Maybe it's just me, but rather unprofessional to share those two documents like that.
It is far more unprofessional not to live up to one's business commitments, something that BF is clearly not denying. At no point have I seen BF claim that "we have fulfilled *all* of our obligations per the terms of the contract that we signed".
Riiiiight, sorry folks, not picking sides here, so no need for the PM's educating me, it just struck me as such because he's throwing files out there with bank account numbers and whatnot.
BrookM wrote: Riiiiight, sorry folks, not picking sides here, so no need for the PM's educating me, it just struck me as such because he's throwing files out there with bank account numbers and whatnot.
Actually I'm with you on this. Assuming even half of what we are hearing is true, there is no denying that BF have acted solely in the interests of their own company and to hell with everyone else and contractual obligations. But as the old saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right and I'm a little concerned that - irrespective of what BF have or have not done - companies are going to be very reluctant to work alongside a partner (DS) who might kiss and tell at the slightest hint of trouble. I don't know, maybe Paolo really feels this is the only course of action he has left but this really, really doesn't bode well for the future of DUST.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
Erm, aye, but that's a bad thing. Capitalism is supposed to consist of informed participants on all sides, including the customers. Frankly all information about a company and how they do business should be public knowledge unless it directly relates to their IP or their business model is their IP. Whether out of self-interest or genuine concern for backers, Paolo has done them and other BF customers a service, it's a shame a few folk are seemingly much more concerned with business etiquette than the fact BF appear to be in breach of contract and happily screwing their KS backers.
After the dust settles from this catastrophe, I wonder if anyone would even be interested in being a distributor for DS? They are on their 3rd distributor in 5 years. AEG, FFG, Battlefront
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
You don't get to solve issues like that while puffing a cigar in the gentleman's club, a glass of brandy in your hand when you have a rather significant number of backers (or rather customers) who paid and have not received product because of your "disagreement".
Perhaps if you want to follow the gallant and noble business sector rules, stay away from Kickstarter?
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
Erm, aye, but that's a bad thing. Capitalism is supposed to consist of informed participants on all sides, including the customers. Frankly all information about a company and how they do business should be public knowledge unless it directly relates to their IP or their business model is their IP. Whether out of self-interest or genuine concern for backers, Paolo has done them and other BF customers a service, it's a shame a few folk are seemingly much more concerned with business etiquette than the fact BF appear to be in breach of contract and happily screwing their KS backers.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
Erm, aye, but that's a bad thing. Capitalism is supposed to consist of informed participants on all sides, including the customers. Frankly all information about a company and how they do business should be public knowledge unless it directly relates to their IP or their business model is their IP. Whether out of self-interest or genuine concern for backers, Paolo has done them and other BF customers a service, it's a shame a few folk are seemingly much more concerned with business etiquette than the fact BF appear to be in breach of contract and happily screwing their KS backers.
Actually capitalism has nothing to do with the disclosure of information, especially to the public. That's more of a "fair market" principle, while straight capitalism is more to the side of the free market where the private owners regulate themselves (i.e. - exactly what Dust is NOT doing). While the fair market ideals are certainly preferable to me being a consumer, the reality is that it's a capitalistic world for the most part because those closed-door meetings and "away from the public eye" shenanigans is how business actually gets done. Generally involving the public is a horrid idea because groups of people are by and large idiots ("None of us is as dumb as all of us", etc) and it's simply going to make things dramatically uglier. Think of most any project you've ever worked on; the addition of more and more people to the conversation with competing views and desires is very rarely productive.
This will not be a fact lost upon future business partners for Dust Studios, which is why it's an incredibly stupid idea for the long term. Yes, you will get the public to exert pressure on an intransigent partner, and that might move the line in your favor in negotiations. Then BF drops Dust (at this point I don't see how there can be a working relationship going forward), and every other company has to look at Paolo's behavior in this dispute and say "do we want to run that risk when the time comes?" By and large, the answer will likely be no. So these tactics may well win Paolo a tactical victory, which bully for him because in this case it means backers get their stuff sooner, but it's likely to become a huge strategic debacle for the brand, which hurts those same backers and many more people besides. Now, it could reasonably be inferred that BF simply has them over a huge barrel and without this, there simply won't be a short-term OR a long-term, but we've already seen Paolo admitting that he was warned the entire KS idea was not that great by the CEO and he pressed on. I'm not sure I want to say his judgement in business matters is particularly solid.
All of that said, none of the answers provided by BF have really been helping me sympathize with their position. Yes, they may have paid 400k already, but half of that was reportedly for an extant debt. It really doesn't say "We have the money and POs for Wave 2 ready once we iron out these last details" to my reading. It seems much more like a selective presentation of the truth which, while not shocking, doesn't engender feelings that things are on the up-and-up. I do know that personally I've curtailed most of my spending with BF pending the resolution of this issue (excepting things already planned/ordered). Of course at this point it's closing the stable door now that all the horses are out, but still.
katfude wrote: From worldofdust.net in regards to dust-tactics.com not working:
Until recently, this website was accessible through several different domain names. One of these, www.dust-tactics.com, is owned by Dust Studios, who have decided to discontinue this domain.
From now on, the best way to access this site is to use the domain www.worldofdust.net. The website content remains unchanged, and will continue to offer support for Dust Tactics, Dust Tactics Battlefield and Dust Warfare, along with our active discussion forum.
We apologise for any disruption or inconvenience.
I thought it was the ebil BF who closed it so that backers could not chase them.
Surely DS would not quietly pull the plug on the site and let BF take the flak
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
That ceases to be a credible argument when the public has a substantial financial investment in your business. Want to keep your problems private? Stay the feth off of Kickstarter.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
That ceases to be a credible argument when the public has a substantial financial investment in your business. Want to keep your problems private? Stay the feth off of Kickstarter.
That holds so long as you only intend to business with just the public in the future. If you want to do business with other businesses in the future it's still a bad idea.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
Would you advocate disgruntled passive-aggressive jabs on a public forum instead?
Since the Kickstarter backers have a large amount of money tied up into the project, it is their business transaction too, and they may be viewed as a "business partner" or "investor", so yes they have a right to know about their business dealings. It would be a different story if backer funding wasn't involved. Unfortunately, since Battlefront has control of the Kickstarter page and pledge manager, to my knowledge there is no other way to inform the backers, except publicly.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Well, going all public with disagreements is generally considered a bad idea in the business-sector.
Erm, aye, but that's a bad thing. Capitalism is supposed to consist of informed participants on all sides, including the customers. Frankly all information about a company and how they do business should be public knowledge unless it directly relates to their IP or their business model is their IP. Whether out of self-interest or genuine concern for backers, Paolo has done them and other BF customers a service, it's a shame a few folk are seemingly much more concerned with business etiquette than the fact BF appear to be in breach of contract and happily screwing their KS backers.
I really can't agree with that. There's a font of very good reasons to control access to information. Not the least of which is privacy concerns.
What we are seeing here is an excellent example of what can go wrong with so-called 'transparency'. From what I can see, Palo is pushing a particular narrative, and has been releasing information that supports this narrative. He is using information to achieve a specific goal. His goal is clearly not transparency for the sake of transparency.
His actions, regardless of whether or not one believes they are 'justified', are causing massive damage to the Dust brand. He's taken the nuclear option and fallout is spreading all over himself, Dust, Dust Studios, Dust Manufacturing, Battlefront... People are already saying that this could be the end of all Dust-related product lines.
I'm not coming down on this thing one way or another. But anyone can see the harm that is being caused.
Again, this is ultimately a Kickstarter problem. As much as Kickstarter has been great for the table top gaming industry, it has also done a great deal of harm.
What we are seeing here is an excellent example of what can go wrong with so-called 'transparency'. From what I can see, Palo is pushing a particular narrative, and has been releasing information that supports this narrative. He is using information to achieve a specific goal. His goal is clearly not transparency for the sake of transparency.
I'm sure his main goal is to protect his IP and manufacturing business. The main way to do this is to try and protect and secure his customers. The best way to do that at this point is to say "Hey we know you are pissed, and even though our name is on this, and we're responsible for making your products, these Battlefront guys have your money, and we're waiting on them to pay us, so we can make your stuff. Just so you know, it's not us holding things back, take a look for yourself." I'm not a backer, nor have a stake in either side, but even I can see that. Yes it's a tactic, but so is any business decision. If he was completely trying to use "transparency" only for his ends, I think he should have down-played the fact that they went into the deal knowingly and in support of Battlefront to pay off it's debt. As a Kickstarter backer I'd be pissed knowing my "investment" went mostly to bailing Battlefront out of debt, especially if they suspected Battlefront was having money troubles.
His actions, regardless of whether or not one believes they are 'justified', are causing massive damage to the Dust brand. He's taken the nuclear option and fallout is spreading all over himself, Dust, Dust Studios, Dust Manufacturing, Battlefront... People are already saying that this could be the end of all Dust-related product lines.
That's all just dramatic conjecture at this point. It's too early to measure the effects of what's going on. Sure it will effect things - it's damage control - but would it be better or worse than the alternatives? Especially when its your name on the product and your name on the kickstarter.
This may even be Paulo's only choice. There is obviously a third party (the Chinese guy whose name escapes me who is listed as the head of the Studio that makes the minis). Do we know if Paulo licensed the name to the company or if he is the owner? If the former, he has no power beyond pleading to make the factory owner produce the minis for free for a company that has repeatedly not wanted to pay for what they "buy". Going public may be the only thing he can do to try and salvage his game's reputation. Battlefront has said that dust sales are a minor concern to them in the big picture and who knows what % of production dust is for the factory that makes them. Paulo's image and his creation is shouldering the biggest risk in all of this so I can't fault him for doing what he can inbetween a rock and a hard place.
Look, y'all can think what you like, but we are up to page 10 in this thread now, and I have seen multiple posts in this thread alone questioning whether Dust, as a product, will survive this debacle.
That is demonstrable harm. It is happening. It is happening as we speak.
I also don't buy that going public is Paulo's only choice. If it is, it would mean that he has no proper legal recourse. If he's got no proper legal recourse, it likely means that the current circumstances are properly bound within the terms of a contract that, ostensibly, Paulo agreed to.
What, Dust can't hire a lawyer? This isn't a situation in which an indigent party is being manhandled by a powerful entity in contravention of justice. Presumably, Dust is a sophisticated entity.
My company gets taken for a ride all of the time by large corporations. You think it legitimately takes a fortune 500 company nine months to pay a bill? It sucks, sure. It hurts, definitely. But it hurts a heck of a lot less than not having the work.
Contractors, of all stripes, get used for interest-free loans all of the time. And that's a situation in which you have legal recourse if you wished to exercise it. But being pissy about getting paid in a timely fashion is often much more trouble than it's worth. And that's even when you can be pissy about it in private.
Paulo is selling a narrative. He is. He's angry and he is doing what he can to hurt Battlefront. For example, what productive reason was there for taking down one of the web addresses that allows customers to access the game's website?
Being vindictive is bad for business. And at the very least Paulo is becoming more of an industry pariah every day. I sure as heck wouldn't do business with him at this point. It doesn't matter if he's right or if he's wrong. This is not how I would want someone in a business relationship with me to behave. Because there's no telling whether this individual will do this exact same thing when he thinks he's in the right, even if he isn't. So this behavior is now always on the table whenever anyone contemplates going into any kind of business relationship with Dust Studios.
Most companies would keep their business to themselves, and argue it out, or get lawyers. Arguing with the people you are doing business with in public doesn't help you out. "Going tot he public" is generally done when you want to hurt the other party, or build a case of public opinion. Especially when you aren't on firm ground.
I expect that what's happened is that a situation, or several situations, have occurred that weren't forseen or spelled out in the contrac. Bills have to be paid, but who is paying for what, and does the money come out of the kickstarter, or does one side eat the costs.
Then one side gets mad, goes to the public, and we get embellished tales that dont tell the total story.
DS and BF are kind of like a married couple who should get a divorce but decide to have a kid instead to save the marriage. Then, big surprise, the kid(Operation Babylon) just makes things worse. Finally, DS decides to bad mouth BF to all their mutual friends to help win the nasty custody battle("Battlefield made me co-sign on that jet ski he wrecked even though I totally didn't want to").
mikhaila wrote: Most companies would keep their business to themselves, and argue it out, or get lawyers. Arguing with the people you are doing business with in public doesn't help you out. "Going tot he public" is generally done when you want to hurt the other party, or build a case of public opinion. Especially when you aren't on firm ground.
I expect that what's happened is that a situation, or several situations, have occurred that weren't forseen or spelled out in the contrac. Bills have to be paid, but who is paying for what, and does the money come out of the kickstarter, or does one side eat the costs.
Then one side gets mad, goes to the public, and we get embellished tales that dont tell the total story.
I suspect Dusts reluctance to get lawyers involved may well be because the Battlefront 'company' in the US is probably the one where litigation would happen,
but from the sound of it there are no real assets there (as soon as they come in they go out to the main New Zealand company)
so even a win in court would not equal any money, BF would let the US entity die and start a new one with 'new' management
result no money for Dust, legal fees to pay, no KS product delivery. The public bust up is probably the best they can do if they want to act now, rather than just keep negociating behind the scenes
(but as Ghaz says as to the actual facts of the whole thing "There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying."
- Robert Evans (2002)
Dust is getting hurt by failure of the KS more than by DS coming forward with this.
BF, which apparently needed the KS to pay off debt, is withholding money.
Going through lawyers can potentially take years.
Meanwhile, the Dust brand is getting hammered by silence.
What is DS supposed to do?
Is it unprofessional to take your case to public opinion? Sure.
Is it unprofessional to not pay money you owe to your business partners?
Which are you going to refuse to do business with in the future:
1)the guy who's IP is turning to dust (see what I did there) for non-deliverance of goods and who has come out with what is happening (if, for nothing else, so that the investors know why their stuff isn't being delivered)
2) the "gaming giant" that can't pay its bills without misleadingly running KS to sell other products and then refuses to honor its financial obligations to its partner?
Having worked in the industry I know one thing about Paolo, he's an arteest, and one thing about those guys is they are a pain in the donkey to work with, because they will throw big ol'snit fits about everything, even contracts they signed, and renege at random if they feel they've been slighted.
There's a lot of accusations being tossed around this thread without a shred of evidence besides the one Paolo's pushing to support his narrative. If he actually has such evidence he'd be taking it to court, he's pushing it to us because he doesn't ACTUALLY have anything, releasing material like those payment slips that had full bank information and everything? That can straight up damage you in court. There's a reason the first thing any smart lawyer will do as soon as you retain them is to tell you to shut up.
Personally I've felt the Dust IP was a bad acquisition for Battlefront that they shouldn't have taken on from the start. Better to have let it die when FFG dumped it.
Regardless of if Paolo is an 'arteest' or whether he should have hired a lawyer or etc, the fact is BF still needs to pay Dust for the freebies offered during the KS, which is the main point of contention it seems.
Sining wrote: Regardless of if Paolo is an 'arteest' or whether he should have hired a lawyer or etc, the fact is BF still needs to pay Dust for the freebies offered during the KS, which is the main point of contention it seems.
But do they really? And how much? All we have is the initial contract that doesn't include the updates with the cost of stretch goal unlocked items. BF is claiming that Paolo made promises during the Kickstarter that DS is not honoring. Possibly a promise to split costs on the freebies. Something DS is reluctant to do now that there's a funding shortfall even on the initial items.
Personally I've felt the Dust IP was a bad acquisition for Battlefront that they shouldn't have taken on from the start. Better to have let it die when FFG dumped it.
Personally I've felt the Dust IP was a bad acquisition for Battlefront that they shouldn't have taken on from the start. Better to have let it die when FFG dumped it.
Saying FFG "dumped" it is a pretty large stretch.
I'd go on to add pretty much everything from that post is a stretch.
Sining wrote: Regardless of if Paolo is an 'arteest' or whether he should have hired a lawyer or etc, the fact is BF still needs to pay Dust for the freebies offered during the KS, which is the main point of contention it seems.
But do they really? And how much? All we have is the initial contract that doesn't include the updates with the cost of stretch goal unlocked items. BF is claiming that Paolo made promises during the Kickstarter that DS is not honoring. Possibly a promise to split costs on the freebies. Something DS is reluctant to do now that there's a funding shortfall even on the initial items.
When did BF claim this? All I saw was that they're trying to negotiate and mediate. Also,do you have any evidence for your later accusations? Because I'm not seeing how splitting costs would affect them at all if theres a funding shortfall. Let's make it very clear, the contract pretty much stated that BF was to pay DS purely as a manufacturer. There was nothing about profit-sharing in it at all. Whether the KS got 400k or 1 million or 2 million, DS would still get the same amount as the manufacturer. So who is that funding shortfall likely to affect? DS or BF? Who was originally supposed to keep the profits for the KS?
Seriously, if DS wanted to renege, there are much easier ways to do so, including just running the KS themselves.
There's a lot of accusations being tossed around this thread without a shred of evidence besides the one Paolo's pushing to support his narrative.
Actually, I've shared my personal dealings with BF in this thread multiple times. I sent emails to their customer service in August, September, November, December and January without a single response. I finally was able to contact someone at Battlefront by tracking a staff member down on their forum. I sent numerous emails from November to February getting my Kickstarter cancelled and refunded. They cancelled without issue, but while other were finally getting shipments sent, I still was not refunded. So I spent several months being out both money and product, and would go several weeks on end without getting a response to basic questions and followups based on guarantees provided by them. Finally I had to threaten legal action, at which point I was receiving multiple emails per day from them to get my refund processed, and immediate replies to my emails and a refund was issued in under 24 hours.
Based on my personal experience, Battlefront is the most unprofessional and shady company I have ever interacted with. They failed to deliver on every promise they offered in the Kickstarter. They took 6 months to work out a pledge manager for 1500 orders that could have been done manually in a fraction of that time. They then lied about the status of the Kickstarter on multiple occasions after the pledge manager was sent, and continue to not provide any meaningful updates to backers, and the only reason any response is being given at all is due to Paolo going public.
So I would say being involved in this for nearly a year, that there is a mound of evidence to support Paolo's version of things, as it lines up very closely to what I have dealt with from them for months before Paolo ever went public. Battlefront took the money to pay previous debts, plain and simple. And now they are trying to weasel out of their obligations to their backers.
My own experience with BF in the UK over the I'll fated Bastogne Church was terrible.
Product was a year late and so bad they recalled the first ones to then have their own staff try to reprint them, after having the money for a year.
BF believes they can do no wrong and are too big to fail, I mystified why as hardly any store near new me stocks them anymore and no one at several places I go to plays their stuff....
But do they really? And how much? All we have is the initial contract that doesn't include the updates with the cost of stretch goal unlocked items. BF is claiming that Paolo made promises during the Kickstarter that DS is not honoring. Possibly a promise to split costs on the freebies. Something DS is reluctant to do now that there's a funding shortfall even on the initial items.
When did BF claim this? All I saw was that they're trying to negotiate and mediate. Also,do you have any evidence for your later accusations? Because I'm not seeing how splitting costs would affect them at all if theres a funding shortfall. Let's make it very clear, the contract pretty much stated that BF was to pay DS purely as a manufacturer. There was nothing about profit-sharing in it at all. Whether the KS got 400k or 1 million or 2 million, DS would still get the same amount as the manufacturer. So who is that funding shortfall likely to affect? DS or BF? Who was originally supposed to keep the profits for the KS?
Seriously, if DS wanted to renege, there are much easier ways to do so, including just running the KS themselves.
It would be this line from update 98:
However, at this time we are still seeking meaningful dialogue with Dust Studio’s majority shareholder, William Yau, regarding commitments that Paolo made during the Kickstarter Campaign.
I was making an assumption that the promises were about the freebies, but I think there is ample evidence to support this. Both sides have mentioned it as a point of contention, and the contract indicates a process for amending the deal to cover items added during the Kickstarter. As bad as we might think of BF, I don't see them adding things to the KS without a cost structure in place. At least one freebie was listed as included in the cost of the base pledge package in the contract, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that other freebies would be covered in the same way.
I don't think BF has been acting all that great here, but I don't believe that we are getting the whole story from Paolo. I think there are details from when the campaign was running and that have to do with that initial 200K debt to the factor bank that seem missing.
Seriously the whole KS was a stupid idea to begin with. Expecting their first KS to turn enough profit to pay for itself while starting 200K in the hole was a long shot at best.
Mr. Yau - Battlefront owes us money per the contract.
BF- but Paolo said they would pay for part of the price of the add ons
Judge- Whos Paolo? He's not listed as a party on the contract, therefore has no negotiating rights with you.
BF- sound of papers rustling.
But then as others point out there would be no money worked out as BF could just close the U.S. office where the lawsuit would get filed.
But do they really? And how much? All we have is the initial contract that doesn't include the updates with the cost of stretch goal unlocked items. BF is claiming that Paolo made promises during the Kickstarter that DS is not honoring. Possibly a promise to split costs on the freebies. Something DS is reluctant to do now that there's a funding shortfall even on the initial items.
When did BF claim this? All I saw was that they're trying to negotiate and mediate. Also,do you have any evidence for your later accusations? Because I'm not seeing how splitting costs would affect them at all if theres a funding shortfall. Let's make it very clear, the contract pretty much stated that BF was to pay DS purely as a manufacturer. There was nothing about profit-sharing in it at all. Whether the KS got 400k or 1 million or 2 million, DS would still get the same amount as the manufacturer. So who is that funding shortfall likely to affect? DS or BF? Who was originally supposed to keep the profits for the KS?
Seriously, if DS wanted to renege, there are much easier ways to do so, including just running the KS themselves.
It would be this line from update 98:
However, at this time we are still seeking meaningful dialogue with Dust Studio’s majority shareholder, William Yau, regarding commitments that Paolo made during the Kickstarter Campaign.
I was making an assumption that the promises were about the freebies, but I think there is ample evidence to support this. Both sides have mentioned it as a point of contention, and the contract indicates a process for amending the deal to cover items added during the Kickstarter. As bad as we might think of BF, I don't see them adding things to the KS without a cost structure in place. At least one freebie was listed as included in the cost of the base pledge package in the contract, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that other freebies would be covered in the same way.
I don't think BF has been acting all that great here, but I don't believe that we are getting the whole story from Paolo. I think there are details from when the campaign was running and that have to do with that initial 200K debt to the factor bank that seem missing.
Seriously the whole KS was a stupid idea to begin with. Expecting their first KS to turn enough profit to pay for itself while starting 200K in the hole was a long shot at best.
A lot of things aren't out of the realm of possibilities yet. Although I'm not sure what you mean by 200k debt to the factor bank that seems to be missing? I thought that payment was part of the 400+ they paid DS
A lot of things aren't out of the realm of possibilities yet. Although I'm not sure what you mean by 200k debt to the factor bank that seems to be missing? I thought that payment was part of the 400+ they paid DS
I meant in terms of details in how that came about. There's got to be more details to that story than just Battlefront being all, "Derp, Derp, just not going to pay of this money to a major international bank and tank our credit score, derp."
Sining wrote: A lot of things aren't out of the realm of possibilities yet. Although I'm not sure what you mean by 200k debt to the factor bank that seems to be missing? I thought that payment was part of the 400+ they paid DS
The word "missing" in his statement would seem to refer to the facts surrounding that particular situation, and not to the payment itself. Stated another way "There is information as regards the original plan for the KS and the bank payment that have not been disclosed."
For example, Paolo claims BF violated their agreement by paying the bank. Is this true? Or did Mr. Yau (i.e. - Paolo's boss and superior in the company hierarchy based on job title) decide to prioritize that differently since DS was on the hook for that loan once the funding amount became known? What was the agreement regarding freebies in the campaign, if there was to be one? What was said as regards getting BF to get FFG off the hook in the beginning (i.e. - were there inducements and offers from DS to get BF to pick up the tab in the first place)?
These are all rather key points of information to the situation which seem to be absent from the public record. That's not shocking, as those details AND what we do know wouldn't normally be publicly known. However, there is nothing up that is out of the realm of being believable, and as you point out there's many more things besides. Hence why it's unwise to take Paolo's take on the narrative as gospel truth and believe the fault is wholly Battlefront's. The truth likely lies somewhere in between, and it's unlikely the public will ever truly hear how close it is to the middle or even BF's point of view. Heck, Paolo might be completely right, but we're still not real likely to know about it.
Saying that neither side is particularly covering themselves in glory is pretty safe though.
Eventually one side or the other is going to take this to court.
The fact that DS posted on the interweb makes me think that they have the weaker case, and that this may well lead to damages being claimed against them in addition to the actual matters of the conflict.
Battlefront has claimed that they want independent arbitration.
Litigation is expensive - arbitration can be inexpensive. (Greg Stafford once acted as arbitrator between R. Talsorian and Games Designer's Workshop.)
If DS is avoiding having an independent party act as arbitrator....
It could just be that Paolo is too emotionally invested in the conflict - but, really, taking this to arbitration is quite workable, and avoids a lot of the expense of full out litigation.
Not to call anyone out in particular, but I think people watch too many TV court shows.
DS does have legal representation.
They've stated they've tried mediation, which so far hasn't worked.
This is a case where the wrong move is to be quiet about it.
Going public doesn't mean "emotional". Paolo has been communicative and open, but not slanderous. BF also hasn't been slanderous (communicative on the other hand...). Both have been firm with subtle jabs but no slander. To my knowledge nothing has been said that would ruin either side in a legal proceeding.
On the other hand fans/backers on both sides have been very emotional and slanderous.
Going public doesn't necessarily mean they are "standing on weaker" ground, it means they are more motivated to get this resolved. As a manufacturer DS is working with time frames (they produce other things too). As holder of the IP and being named on the Kickstarter, the longer it draws out, the more damaging it is to their IP.
Battlefront on the other hand has had no motivation to move forward. They're just the distributor. They received the money and paid off the bank that was chasing them. Because of the complexity of the Kickstarter, I'm sure doing work on it causes them to lose money, so where's the motivation?
DS going public and calling them out has motivated BF and has been getting results. They've posted more updates in the last few weeks then they have in the last few months. BF has finally pushed out the Australian shipments. BF's shipping dept. has contacted DS about shipping out the remainder of wave 1 products (Premium Axis Army Boxes) that have been sitting in the warehouse gathering dust.
Chicken little crying out the end of Dust isn't evidence of "demonstrable harm". It's just people being dramatic.
DS going public and calling them out has motivated BF and has been getting results. They've posted more updates in the last few weeks then they have in the last few months. BF has finally pushed out the Australian shipments. BF's shipping dept. has contacted DS about shipping out the remainder of wave 1 products (Premium Axis Army Boxes) that have been sitting in the warehouse gathering dust.
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Agree with the majority of what you posted but this quoted statement is maybe a little off.
Backers have been reporting BF to Kickstarter over not being honest and transparent with their communication which also wasn't being delivered in a timely fashion. This is a KS requirement regardless of whether the KS is a success or failure. So possibly heat has been generated elsewhere in addition to Paolo's public comments.
Secondly the OZ/NZ shipments were already in progress before this hit the fan, having left HK either late Nov or early December. This was addressed pre-Xmas by BF maybe on the 18th December? They were unfortunately loaded and sent well after the EU and US probably why we're receiving less as the fountain had already run dry. Also afaik they aren't responsible for the dispatch from DS and are definitely not directly involved with the distro here.
And relating to this, thirdly, Axis PAAB's aren't they only Babylon items missing from this Wave shipment as backers who have received shipments without any minis can testify to. This is a result of BF not supplying the correct Purchase Order data to DS which Paolo mentioned specifically in his last comment. Simple math between the total backer count and BF data shows it was short by nearly 250 odd backers, not counting the LGS orders that would have also been submitted. Paolo again mentions BF was still trying to clear this in January...
Regardless who is right or wrong, there's now a whole bunch of folks who're now not going to touch any Dust product with a bargepole. And the longer this goes on, the more people will be in that camp.
because...
