I'm actually rather curious as to what will actually happen if the big GW gets bankrupt and liquidated or something.
For so many years, many people have been chorusing how the company has been declining in numerous aspect and is getting out-competed by numerous other tabletop gaming companies. According to some rumors, at this rate, the entire company might as well collapse within less than a decade or so.
So.... what do you think will happen? Will we all be forced to give up on 40k, fantasy, etc and pretty much get the "epic" treatment (haha... not funny) and get squatted? Or will some other company absorb it and run it better?
What would happen is that the various products could be auctioned off to others to pay off their bills (I know that I would be looking to snatch the LotR license, or help some other company obtain it).
And it could be that the new owners might treat the properties better.
Or... It could be that some other company could buy the whole slew of licenses, and then run the company even worse.
And long before that the IP would have been put safely in the hands of a seperate entity entirely owned by the directors formerly of GW.
They'd try to sell it for movies etc first, relaunch the range second and then it would disappear.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
I imagine the IP would get picked up by someone rather quickly. The brand has, if nothing else, a long history, and that would certainly have value.
It could certainly be bad, as notprop suggests, but then again there are many who criticize GW's current leadership and codex writers, so it could even be a good thing. Impossible to say, though.
I've been burned to many times by the "fly by night" mini games that fold under and no ones else plays them anyway.
How long has it been since you looked?
I remember over 5 years ago a lot of games came and went, but the market is pretty saturated now with games that don't look like they're going anywhere. Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine, X-Wing, Flames of War, Mantics games, Spartans games, etc all have obvious staying power.
And while many still opt to play GW games, if GW folded, they'd obviously look for a new game. Not many people keep playing a dead game. There's plenty out there to move to.
We, the good people of Dakka (and other sites) would create a group that would streamline, balance and publish WHFB and 40K rules for free (possibly using different names).
Meh, I wouldn't be surprised if the greedy bastards on the board think it's worth more than it actually is and never manage to sell it, instead just randomly sending C&D letters to others for infringement over the next decade or so.
I think before they go bankrupt they will try to sell themselves off. Which means a burst of activity to try to look like their product is in demand and a valuable brand / IP, etc.
It's crossed my mind that the furor and flurry of activity we've seen the past year *might* be that, but honestly, people have been saying that GW is going to go bust any day now for like 15 years.
Fanboys will whine in the streets, crying its over, its over, there is no support, my game is dead. Model and figure secondary markets will be flooded from people dumping their armies, prices will bottom out.
After awhile folks will realize their models did not evaporate, and the game can still be played.
Realistically, the company will go into receivership and quite possibly be bought up by another company. At worst case, everything will get auctioned piecemeal, and various owners of parts will do what they will with them.
snurl wrote: Fanboys will whine in the streets, crying its over, its over, there is no support, my game is dead. Model and figure secondary markets will be flooded from people dumping their armies, prices will bottom out.
After awhile folks will realize their models did not evaporate, and the game can still be played.
Outside of small groups, where it's even common for them to not migrate between editions, this doesn't really happen. It's not like it's common to see a game of Confrontation or AT-43 being played, or even GW specialist games, games which were looked fondly back on.
JimOnMars wrote: We, the good people of Dakka (and other sites) would create a group that would streamline, balance and publish WHFB and 40K rules for free (possibly using different names).
Then we would play.
What's stopping people right now from getting together and agreeing on a rules rewrite and a fandex?
Haight wrote: I think before they go bankrupt they will try to sell themselves off. Which means a burst of activity to try to look like their product is in demand and a valuable brand / IP, etc.
It's crossed my mind that the furor and flurry of activity we've seen the past year *might* be that, but honestly, people have been saying that GW is going to go bust any day now for like 15 years.
That's what I thought when the codexes came out every month since 40k's 'recent' update. Make the GW rules all up to the same level, and get the buyer activity going again.
There has been talk to prospective buyers hanging around HQ, namely Hasbro. That might just be to do with consultancy work, though. GW's people have been credited for all sorts of things for years.
-Loki- wrote: Outside of small groups, where it's even common for them to not migrate between editions, this doesn't really happen. It's not like it's common to see a game of Confrontation or AT-43 being played, or even GW specialist games, games which were looked fondly back on.
In my aera, it's currently easier to start a Bloodbow league or Mordheim campaign than a WHFB one.
Not much of anything - if GW continues failing for that long they will have been marginalized long before reaching the end.
People would be refusing to pay their prices for broken rules, and gone on to better written games for lower prices, a few at a time.
Other games and companies would fill the niche.
That is kind of the scenario that I expect will play out - and I do not think that Hasbro will swoop in and rescue the IP. GW overvalues their IP, more likely... something else will take its place.
Davylove21 wrote: If 40K stopped production today and not a single new thing was made?
I'd go to The Winchester, have a pint and wait for the whole thing to blow over.
You could probably get old snakehips to play a round with you.
If GW went bankrupt (unlikely) it would free up an even greater amount of market share for many of their already thriving competitors. I'm not very confident that a fan man main rule book would be universally accepted, though it may exist alongside older editions in small groups.
I am confident however that most people would simply just switch to Bolt Action, Warmarhordes, X-Wing, or any number of other great games and carry on their addiction to the hobby. Many of us have already done this.
In terms of buy outs/ IP transfer I'm not qualified for insight on this.
-Loki- wrote: Outside of small groups, where it's even common for them to not migrate between editions, this doesn't really happen. It's not like it's common to see a game of Confrontation or AT-43 being played, or even GW specialist games, games which were looked fondly back on.
In my aera, it's currently easier to start a Bloodbow league or Mordheim campaign than a WHFB one.
notprop wrote: And long before that the IP would have been put safely in the hands of a seperate entity entirely owned by the directors formerly of GW.
They'd try to sell it for movies etc first, relaunch the range second and then it would disappear.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
yeah or maybe they could get hustled to a third world country and be marketed as "made in great britain with pride"...*cough* range rover
notprop wrote: And long before that the IP would have been put safely in the hands of a seperate entity entirely owned by the directors formerly of GW.
They'd try to sell it for movies etc first, relaunch the range second and then it would disappear.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
yeah or maybe they could get hustled to a third world country and be marketed as "made in great britain with pride"...*cough* range rover
I think made in America with Asbestos and Jesus Juice and definite no boob because bombs are the devils fun bags....er..cough?
To be honest, I think they'll get through this. They need to lower prices, stop OP characters for 6 points in 40k, and listen to feedback they were ignoring.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
Why the American hate? We have companies like Revell/Monogram or Reaper that could make GW minis and stuff better then GW does right now. AND CHEAPER
Hell even if it went to WOTC I doubt we'd see pre-paints and soft stuff. Blind buy 'maybe' but it'd probably be promo stuff like what Hot Wheels does. And honestly you'd say 'no' to action figures?
Besides it's not like America does EVERYTHING better then the Brits: Cars, movies, p**n, food, military, government (which is terrifying in it's factuality.), industry, technology, medical, etc. etc. etc.
No hate on the British folks here but GW would of been well served if it had LEFT Britain and became an American company HQed solely in Baltimore. And kept their stuff in Memphis as well.
KingmanHighborn wrote: No hate on the British folks here but GW would of been well served if it had LEFT Britain and became an American company HQed solely in Baltimore. And kept their stuff in Memphis as well.
Moving GW's HQ to the USA might not be a bad thing for GW's legals, as they could spew litigation all around and get more of it to stick.
Manufacturing is mostly molds and machines, which they can load onto a ship. That's if all the rest was smashed up from the closure of Memphis. The technical team might have to go with it though.
But, how many of the creative team would want to move with it? I assume almost all of them at based in the Midlands near Nottingham.
notprop wrote: And long before that the IP would have been put safely in the hands of a seperate entity entirely owned by the directors formerly of GW.
They'd try to sell it for movies etc first, relaunch the range second and then it would disappear.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
yeah or maybe they could get hustled to a third world country and be marketed as "made in great britain with pride"...*cough* range rover
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company grr rant dribble
Why the American hate?
It's okay. I think he got a bit confused and mistook a swipe against Range Rover's hypocrisy/advertising standards fail for an attack on Blighty, and decided to have a little kneejerk retaliation. Combined with some sort of seizure, from the looks of things.
On-topic: I'm not so sure what'll happen. If I was, I'd make a fortune hiring out my crystal ball services. As it is, I agree with those who think the brand's been weakened and poisoned too much. Any big player like Hasbro buying GW, might be like GW 'buying' back Specialist Games - not profitable enough for their liking, so why bother? Are they in the business of snapping up fixer-uppers? If a smaller company, or some collective of small buyers took it over (unlikely, 'cos I think it'd ironically still have too high an asking price), I dunno if they'd be able to revive it's fortunes as much as they'd like. Even if they answered gamers' prayers and created new, better, balanced, scale-appropriate, rule sets for 40K and WFB, people'd stay away because they won't be 'real' 40K and WFB. Best-case scenario, if the games don't completely evaporate, is that they'll be on a more even footing with the swathes of other games out there (not just those of the GW-lites of PP, Wyrd and Corvus Belli*, etc.) and be 'just' more examples of those.
And that's not bad.
*Guess who recently dumped a high-quality range of minis because it wasn't part of their more popular and profitable game?
The 40K IP has value. I am not sure about fantasy because that IP seemed to heavily overlap with traditional fantasy and as such I don't think can be differentiated enough to make it highly valuable.
If GW went under, I would suspect they would be bought by someone. All manufacturing facilities would probably be sold and redundant portions of the company removed. The only thing that would probably be left is the IP.
I suspect the IP would then be tweaked to make a bit more sense and then you'd have a range of items that come out based on the IP to get cash moving into the company.
notprop wrote: Hasbro wouldn't be a rescue it would be a disaster!
Cuddly Space Marines and Orks in Happy Meals within 24 months. You have been warned!
You mean like what happened to D&D?
Heh, it was TSR that had all sorts of children's toys for D&D.
Including action figures, models, and a Saturday Morning cartoon....
But the scary thing is that I can see people going to Toy Vault and buying plush Ultra Marines and Orks....
The Auld Grump
Yeah, I don't get the hate. You make action figures and skylander type stuff for kids to hook 'em while they're young, building action sets and a cartoon, then segue into all the laughable grimdark gack for teens-adult. I say laughable here because GW fluff is not nearly as grim and dark as people make it out to be, when compared to Wyrd's offerings or Cthulu.
Seeing as Asmodee appears to be in a buying mood, since they acquired FFG; they might be a contender for a buy-out.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company grr rant dribble
Why the American hate?
It's okay. I think he got a bit confused and mistook a swipe against Range Rover's hypocrisy/advertising standards fail for an attack on Blighty, and decided to have a little kneejerk retaliation. Combined with some sort of seizure, from the looks of things.
...
It's okay. I think you got a bit confused about the former US owners of Land Rover that did a poor job with the brand. Where as the current Indian owners (third world? That ranges from inaccurate to racist - that's okay is it?) seem to be taking they brand from strength to strength.
By all means use your own ignorance to excuse the stupidity of others but please don't use it to explain my comments.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company grr rant dribble
Why the American hate?
It's okay. I think he got a bit confused and mistook a swipe against Range Rover's hypocrisy/advertising standards fail for an attack on Blighty, and decided to have a little kneejerk retaliation. Combined with some sort of seizure, from the looks of things.
...
It's okay. I think you got a bit confused about the former US owners of Land Rover that did a poor job with the brand. Where as the current Indian owners (third world? That ranges from inaccurate to racist - that's okay is it?) seem to be taking they brand from strength to strength.
By all means use your own ignorance to excuse the stupidity of others but please don't use it to explain my comments.
Well, someone needs to explain your comments because what I heard was "AARgh! America...er...they is dumb..and...um....racists...arrgh!!!"
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company grr rant dribble
Why the American hate?
It's okay. I think he got a bit confused and mistook a swipe against Range Rover's hypocrisy/advertising standards fail for an attack on Blighty, and decided to have a little kneejerk retaliation. Combined with some sort of seizure, from the looks of things.
...
It's okay. I think you got a bit confused about the former US owners of Land Rover that did a poor job with the brand. Where as the current Indian owners (third world? That ranges from inaccurate to racist - that's okay is it?) seem to be taking they brand from strength to strength.
By all means use your own ignorance to excuse the stupidity of others but please don't use it to explain my comments.
Well, someone needs to explain your comments because what I heard was "AARgh! America...er...they is dumb..and...um....racists...arrgh!!!"
Me am American. Me is frum gratist country on Urf! Waaagggghhh!
(Actually, in WWII... I am pretty sure we were the Orks... lots of troops, and cheap disposable tanks....)
The Auld Grump, and disposable submarines (with torpedoes that hit random targets), and disposable ships (some made out of concrete)... but surprisingly excellent aircraft.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
You mean like 2 of GWs most similar (in terms of what they make), largest, and most successful competitors Privateer Press (WarmaHordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux)?
(Actually, in WWII... I am pretty sure we were the Orks... lots of troops, and cheap disposable tanks....)
Or you know... The Soviets...
US actually had some decent equipment. True the Shermans weren't the best tanks but we did have great naval and aerial equipment as well as some of the most advanced tech besides Nazi Germany.
The Soviets had lots of cheap disposable.... everything lol. Then again they probably would have single handedly crushed Nazi German then rolled the rest of Europe were it not for the U.S.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company grr rant dribble
Why the American hate?
It's okay. I think he got a bit confused and mistook a swipe against Range Rover's hypocrisy/advertising standards fail for an attack on Blighty, and decided to have a little kneejerk retaliation. Combined with some sort of seizure, from the looks of things.
...
It's okay. I think you got a bit confused about the former US owners of Land Rover that did a poor job with the brand. Where as the current Indian owners (third world? That ranges from inaccurate to racist - that's okay is it?) seem to be taking they brand from strength to strength.
Um, no it doesn't, by the original meaning of First, Second, and Third world.
First world was USA, NATO, etc.
Second world was USSR, Soviet Bloc, etc.
Third world was everyone else.
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO, or the Communist Bloc."
Barfolomew wrote: The 40K IP has value. I am not sure about fantasy because that IP seemed to heavily overlap with traditional fantasy and as such I don't think can be differentiated enough to make it highly valuable.
But 40K overlaps with an awful lot of 'traditional' sci-fi and sci-fantasy, too. Dune, 2000AD strips like Judge Dredd and Nemesis the Warlock, Aliens, Starship Troopers, etc. Heck, the first time I saw space marines, with the ubiquitous mk7 power armour, I thought 'can they rip off Star Wars Stormtroopers like that...?'
MWHistorian wrote: Shhh!! Don't let history get in the way of some good Social Justice!
I'm assuming that notprop isn't old enough to remember the Cold War, so doesn't understand the origins of the term "Third World."
Old enough to know that countries change over the years and if you are using Wikipedia and WW2 era notions of where nations currently are you might want to revise your idea of understanding because you sound a little bit archaic.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company and blander to within an inch of its existence and a range of soft toys, pre-paints, blind buy blisters and 18" action figures would be head toward a Toys R Us near you.
You mean like 2 of GWs most similar (in terms of what they make), largest, and most successful competitors Privateer Press (WarmaHordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux)?
(Actually, in WWII... I am pretty sure we were the Orks... lots of troops, and cheap disposable tanks....)
Or you know... The Soviets...
US actually had some decent equipment. True the Shermans weren't the best tanks but we did have great naval and aerial equipment as well as some of the most advanced tech besides Nazi Germany.
The Soviets had lots of cheap disposable.... everything lol. Then again they probably would have single handedly crushed Nazi German then rolled the rest of Europe were it not for the U.S.
Nah, the Soviets were the Imperial Guard. Complete with Commissars.
And if anyone is calling the T-34 a 'cheap, disposable tank', I'ma gonna hafta visit dem wit a baseball bat.
Best tank of the war. (Though the Germans had some contenders.)
The British army of the war also gave a good deal of Imperial Guard inspiration.
By comparison, we had 'the Ronson lighter'. (It always lights on the first strike.)
Before the war we had the M2 'Mae West' and the Stuart, neither exactly overwhelmed... anybody. (The M2 picking up the 'Mae West' nickname because it had... uhm... boobies. )
Navy wise... we had good battlewagons, and okay cruisers. Our destroyers were so-so, our PT boats were... entertaining, and decent at the job - but really lived up to being cheap and disposable.
The submarines were a tragedy - the Mark I torpedo was damn near random in its targeting, and was known to turn around and hit the sub that it had launched it. (My dad was a submariner in WWII. We lost an ungodly number of subs to our own anti submarine air patrols.)
There was a battle in which a US destroyer group fired over thirty torpedoes at a Japanese battleship group - and none of them hit. (Though we won that battle - the Japanese battleships turned and fled. They thought there were reinforcements coming for the destroyers - but there weren't.)
The Auld Grump, yep, we were orks. We even got the random tables.
Barfolomew wrote: The 40K IP has value. I am not sure about fantasy because that IP seemed to heavily overlap with traditional fantasy and as such I don't think can be differentiated enough to make it highly valuable.
40K doesn't have that much inherent value. Sure it's got Space Marines in that form but the concept already existed, and it's own variants on stuff, I think even the God-Emperor is ripped straight out of Dune, but you can reproduce almost the entirety of the setting without actually infringing on anything that's uniquely GW. There's no reason to rely on GW's IP for any big movie franchise, it only really makes sense for smaller computer games.
I guess they'll also have genestealer cults, some of the vehicle types (but not many - even the Rhino is named after a US tank modification), and some of the Ork charactization.
I actually think GW's biggest assets will be their model production capacity and distribution network, so that's what I'd be looking for in a buy out. Just think what'd happen to the gaming scene if GW started providing outsourced manufacturing for other companies...
We'll all have to find something else to do with our spare time, that's what.
(That or different play environments will start to fracture and play older editions/house rules/who knows with their existing models and the Chinese recasters will become the standard source for anyone who sticks with the game instead of wandering off to find something else to do)
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Herzlos wrote: ...some of the vehicle types (but not many - even the Rhino is named after a US tank modification)...
The Rhino is an M113, the Chimera is a BMP, the Land Raider is a British Mk. 1. If you're looking for original designs in 40k you have to take a look at the xenos.
That said GW did manage to come up with a uniquely weird blend of advanced technology, backwards mysticism, and absurdly religious overtones that would be nigh-unacceptable if you pitched it in a more politically-correct age; I don't know that folks would let it up and vanish if GW went down. (That said it'd never be a good movie, some executive would come in and edit it down to PG-13 to try and sell it to a wider audience and the resulting gibberish would make back a tenth of the budget and nobody would do anything with it for a decade after)
Herzlos wrote:
40K doesn't have that much inherent value. Sure it's got Space Marines in that form but the concept already existed, and it's own variants on stuff, I think even the God-Emperor is ripped straight out of Dune, but you can reproduce almost the entirety of the setting without actually infringing on anything that's uniquely GW. There's no reason to rely on GW's IP for any big movie franchise, it only really makes sense for smaller computer games.
Yarp! Sometimes I think the perception of 40K's IP value is exaggerated by gamers who are saturated with it, to the expense of other settings. I like aspects of it meself, but, well, I know there are other things too. 40K's a drop in the bucket, and mingled with a lot of other drops.
AnomanderRake wrote:
(That or different play environments will start to fracture and play older editions/house rules/who knows with their existing models...)
Will that fracturing really be so different to how things go now? I know GW fans are fond of piping up with 'you can get a game anywhere!' every so often, but with GW tourneys long-dead, I'm sceptical about how many actually go on some kind of wargaming tour of the country.
AnomanderRake wrote: (That said it'd never be a good movie, some executive would come in and edit it down to PG-13 to try and sell it to a wider audience and the resulting gibberish would make back a tenth of the budget and nobody would do anything with it for a decade after)
What will happen? Someone will buy it up. But I doubt they will go bankrupt anyway. They have little debt or liabilities, own the manufacturing facilities and the only real liabilities are the retail spaces they rent, and these are rented by GW Retail. If things got bad they could close GW retail Ltd and re structure the rest of the company. If they did this we might see a sale by the liquidator, but there is a good change GW plc would offer the insolvency people enough money to buy back the stock held in the retail shops and there would just be a sale of a few shop fittings.
Or worse, it would be bought by some American company grr rant dribble
Why the American hate?
It's okay. I think he got a bit confused and mistook a swipe against Range Rover's hypocrisy/advertising standards fail for an attack on Blighty, and decided to have a little kneejerk retaliation. Combined with some sort of seizure, from the looks of things.
...
It's okay. I think you got a bit confused about the former US owners of Land Rover that did a poor job with the brand. Where as the current Indian owners (third world? That ranges from inaccurate to racist - that's okay is it?) seem to be taking they brand from strength to strength.
By all means use your own ignorance to excuse the stupidity of others but please don't use it to explain my comments.
I thought it was quite clear he was having a swipe at someone making an ignorant comment (Also, very wrong as all of JLRs cars are made in the UK with the exception of the Evoques for the Chinese market.)
Steve steveson wrote: What will happen? Someone will buy it up. But I doubt they will go bankrupt anyway. They have little debt or liabilities, own the manufacturing facilities and the only real liabilities are the retail spaces they rent, and these are rented by GW Retail.
Except their most recent financial statement shows a steady downward trend in revenue with a slight upward trend in cost. Projecting both out, this time next year they will be operating at a loss, once this occurs, it doesn't take long to move into severe financial distress.
Steve steveson wrote: If things got bad they could close GW retail Ltd and re structure the rest of the company. If they did this we might see a sale by the liquidator, but there is a good change GW plc would offer the insolvency people enough money to buy back the stock held in the retail shops and there would just be a sale of a few shop fittings.
My guess is that they don't own the vast majority of their retail locations, which means they will need to break leases in order to close retail locations, which is a cost with no direct profit. If it comes out that they will need to close all their shops, then the stock will drop drastically and therefore become worthless. Even if they do remove their brick and mortar business, there is still the webstore that I think will continue to put most FLGS off and discourage GW support.
Steve steveson wrote: What will happen? Someone will buy it up. But I doubt they will go bankrupt anyway. They have little debt or liabilities, own the manufacturing facilities and the only real liabilities are the retail spaces they rent, and these are rented by GW Retail.
Except their most recent financial statement shows a steady downward trend in revenue with a slight upward trend in cost. Projecting both out, this time next year they will be operating at a loss, once this occurs, it doesn't take long to move into severe financial distress.
Steve steveson wrote: If things got bad they could close GW retail Ltd and re structure the rest of the company. If they did this we might see a sale by the liquidator, but there is a good change GW plc would offer the insolvency people enough money to buy back the stock held in the retail shops and there would just be a sale of a few shop fittings.
My guess is that they don't own the vast majority of their retail locations, which means they will need to break leases in order to close retail locations, which is a cost with no direct profit. If it comes out that they will need to close all their shops, then the stock will drop drastically and therefore become worthless. Even if they do remove their brick and mortar business, there is still the webstore that I think will continue to put most FLGS off and discourage GW support.
If we are holding to the ten year slow fall mentioned i n the OP... that gives time for GW to let the stores go as the leases expire.
A slow crumble is a lot more likely than a quick collapse.
Hasbro picks up the rightsÂ...Fast forward a year where rules are abandonned, models are now action figures.
The New 40K animated show where squads of Chaos Marines are facing down Harlequins. The Chaos Marine throws a grenade while yelling "Nurgle I choose you!" Out pops a mini-nurgle and some senseless playfighting follows. Lesson of the day is learned roll credits.
Erik_Morkai wrote: Hasbro picks up the rightsÂ...Fast forward a year where rules are abandonned, models are now action figures.
The New 40K animated show where squads of Chaos Marines are facing down Harlequins. The Chaos Marine throws a grenade while yelling "Nurgle I choose you!" Out pops a mini-nurgle and some senseless playfighting follows. Lesson of the day is learned roll credits.
That would still be miles ahead of the current edition of 40k.
Erik_Morkai wrote: Hasbro picks up the rightsÂ...Fast forward a year where rules are abandonned, models are now action figures.
The New 40K animated show where squads of Chaos Marines are facing down Harlequins. The Chaos Marine throws a grenade while yelling "Nurgle I choose you!" Out pops a mini-nurgle and some senseless playfighting follows. Lesson of the day is learned roll credits.
That would still be miles ahead of the current edition of 40k.
I thought that was the current edition of WH40K....
It's impossible to release worse products than GW does, so I'll be fine with whatever comes out of it. Outsource to China, lower prices, add a QA department, hire an actual rules-writing team, etc.
Erik_Morkai wrote: Hasbro picks up the rightsÂ...Fast forward a year where rules are abandonned, models are now action figures.
The New 40K animated show where squads of Chaos Marines are facing down Harlequins. The Chaos Marine throws a grenade while yelling "Nurgle I choose you!" Out pops a mini-nurgle and some senseless playfighting follows. Lesson of the day is learned roll credits.
Da Stormlord wrote: To be honest, I think they'll get through this. They need to lower prices, stop OP characters for 6 points in 40k, and listen to feedback they were ignoring.
What dreamland are you living in?
Companies that listen to their customers are not, "forging a narrative".
WOTC (who I believe would do a faithful job with the IPs) can get very dark in their books. See: Book of Vile Darkness.
Because some people are very much failing to recognize the laughable state of GW's grimdark status. Santa Grimnar is not the scary and you can put the words "murder" and "fang" together all you want but you still have a toy robot.
Even the Daemons aren't really scary anymore; bloodletters are just Gene Simmons clones and who's afraid of Gene?
WOTC (who I believe would do a faithful job with the IPs) can get very dark in their books. See: Book of Vile Darkness.
Because some people are very much failing to recognize the laughable state of GW's grimdark status. Santa Grimnar is not the scary and you can put the words "murder" and "fang" together all you want but you still have a toy robot.
Even the Daemons aren't really scary anymore; bloodletters are just Gene Simmons clones and who's afraid of Gene?
Both GW's and Hasbro's 'grimdarkness' are arguably already a kiddification. The 'dead kewl' factor, and the 'desire to be very grown up/fear of childishness' thing that CS Lewis banged on about.
No doubt some kids think Santa Grimnar and Gene Simmons bloodletters are badass and wikkid. If you don't anymore, well... congrats on growing facial hair.
I don't see the Gene Simmons/Bloodletter thing but whatever.
I don't have a problem with Grimnar's model, maybe 'tech up' the wolves some so they actually look 'capable' of pulling that thing, even if it is a hover vehicle. So it's just a bit 'silly' but 40K has a lot of 'silly' but still it's not 'kiddie'.
All I'm saying is Hasbro would not turn Warhammer and 40K into a white washed 'safe' thing, like 4Kids or something.
There would still be plenty of blood, death, planet explosion, tyranid devouring, ork and daemon rampage, dark eldar torture and BDSM, etc. etc. They might even make Daemonettes legitimately sexy again like Diaz's sculpts were.
If GW went out of business, the ones who cry about GW would still cry about GW miniatures being outrageous on Ebay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erik_Morkai wrote: Hasbro picks up the rightsÂ...Fast forward a year where rules are abandonned, models are now action figures.
The New 40K animated show where squads of Chaos Marines are facing down Harlequins. The Chaos Marine throws a grenade while yelling "Nurgle I choose you!" Out pops a mini-nurgle and some senseless playfighting follows. Lesson of the day is learned roll credits.
Erik! Dude that one made me laugh, reminded me of the 80's cartoons.
Microsoft would pick up the video game rights for 40K. A 40K MMO comes out a year later, as does an 40K Epic RTS that threatens Blizzard's SC2. The SC3/Epic II wars begin...
Then GW would melt the molds down for the the metal they could sell.
Mantic would become the defacto producer of not-WHFB, and the models would start to resemble GW's more and more over time.
Then a year later, Fantasy Flight would make an offer for the game rights, as the price of the IP would have dropped to a reasonable level because the GW directors would have been poaching it around at a ridiculously inflated price previously. Once purchased, FFG would put out a few board games/card games associated with 40K, maybe bring back a few specialist games.
In the meantime, 80% of gamers would have sold their 40K stuff to the remaining 20% at 15% of its value. After six months of sell-offs, scarcity would drive the prices up to 200% of prior prices.
At which time FFG would begin limited releases of some of the core (infantry) armies in plastic (Marines, Chaos [Marines], Orcs, Eldar, IG), and would use kickstarter to fund some of the secondary armies (SoB, Tau, Necrons).
Once the kickstarter(s) start delivering (late), FFG would revive Warhammer Fantasy, licensing it out to Mantic to make the official models. FFG continues to produce the Warhammer RPG (2nd edition revisited) in house.
Norn King wrote: What about the Dawn of War games + other warhammer games? Do they still hold value?
I'd say so, my 14-year old loves to play Dawn of War/Dawn of War II. Personally, I like the Space Marine console game, and Space Hulk has always been popular. If GW really does go under, I can see the video game rights being the first thing snapped up. (Then the IP/Fluff. It's the models I think that will die an uncertain death).
I don't know about others, but I'd personally buy 5"-7" tall articulated action figures of space marines (or Eldar) to display. Hell, I've got a display of 3 1/2" stormtroopers & G.I. Joes, I'd love to put some marines beside them.
...Hmmm, I could go nuts with a space marine land raider + 10 marines in 3 1/2" scale. Or just about anything 40K at that size - I mean, I used to collect the 21st century "toys" and thought they were great for display (and play with them when no one was looking).
If GW Went Bankrupt, I would pull on my biggest remaining connections to buy a few IPs (I am on a first name basis with Google's Director of Technology, who has helped me out in the past in many ways, as well as being childhood friends with the founders of Ensemble Games, who had the very successful Age of Empires as well as Halo Wars).
Specifically The Lord of the Rings and a spin-off license of WH40K (I want to do an actual Sci-Fi game when humanity was still in possession of the hard science as a whole, and maybe have a hand in the recreation of the foundation of the Empire - which I hear is now called "30k" - and the continuation to 40k, ala Asimov's First Foundation prior to the Second Seldon Crisis).
I am pretty sure I could make a convincing case to Tony and Ray that this would be a worthwhile investment.
If GW went insolvent then the LotRs/hobbit Licence would be terminated and revert back to the Owners, so you could apply to NewLine/Tolkien Estate/Whomever owns this.
It will revert back soon enough anyway as I can see GW holding on to it any longer than its current term.
notprop wrote: If GW went insolvent then the LotRs/hobbit Licence would be terminated and revert back to the Owners, so you could apply to NewLine/Tolkien Estate/Whomever owns this.
It will revert back soon enough anyway as I can see GW holding on to it any longer than its current term.
We (some guys I know from UCLA who are going into Film Making) are already working on a Middle-earth project for which we will not need to buy any rights, and we have spoken to the Tolkien Estate... We are soon to approach others as well..
But the project is intended to be a ten, 44min per episode project.
The "Goblins" I have done as miniatures are actually originally done for this project (and I have humans, Elves, and Dwarves in the line.... But we need a new 2D concept artist, as I am not fast enough in 2D to finish the dwarves), and are just posed and altered high-poly animation meshes.
We found a legal loophole which will allow us to do an end run around both Newline and Saentz to get something to show The Tolkien Estate that we can assemble a team that will do proper Justice to the remaining unlicensed works...
The eventual goal is to be able to negotiate with whoever holds the licenses in the 20's to be able to completely re-do the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (and, indeed the ENTIRE Tolkien canon, from the Ainulindalë on) as a ten season cable series that spans all Three Ages of Arda, plus the earlier ten ages prior to the waking of the Children of Ilúvatar.
But if GW folded, and the licenses for the miniatures were up for grabs, it would give us leverage to use in production.
And we could produce miniatures that we closer to what Jackson showed in the movies (the Perry's are good, and the stylistic differences are not due to them, but to GW decisions), and produce a game for massed battles that actually worked properly for Middle-earth.
The eventual goal is to be able to negotiate with whoever holds the licenses in the 20's to be able to completely re-do the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (and, indeed the ENTIRE Tolkien canon, from the Ainulindalë on) as a ten season cable series that spans all Three Ages of Arda, plus the earlier ten ages prior to the waking of the Children of Ilúvatar.
MB
That sounds....boring. Tolkien created a rich world and part of that was due to all of the background information he built into it; however, having read the Simarillion, I nearly scooped my eyes out with spoons from boredom and I hold a degree in history and am used to reading things that basically read like the bible (so and so begat so and so and so on). I seriously can't imagine that work translating well to the small or large screen; people will fall-down dead in their seats from lack of caring about how Ea was created or disharmonious singing powers. Furthermore, there are so many contrived names that people will just give up and not care. People can keep up with a small band of adventurers because there's a finite pool of characters but the books of the Silmarillion literally read like a historical or religious text which is why I think Robert M. Adams had it right when he opined that more people would buy the book than actually read it due to the success of Tolkien's previous works.
Anywho. Off-topic but, for the love of all that is holy make up some stuff if you do this project to at least make a pretense of it being actually interesting to more than a handful of hardcore nerds.
But then I don't get why anybody thinks Hasbro would want to buy GW, unless it were at an unlikely knock-down price. They already own a (better-known) hobby games marque and generic fantasy IP (i.e. WotC and D&D, respectively), and their previous ventures into both running a retail chain and publishing a miniature wargame were abandoned for not turning high enough profits.
Were GW to go into liquidation (something still very unlikely in the medium term, their financials have been poor of late, but not catastrophic), or were a buy offer to be made to shareholders from outside (also unlikely, as the company is at present, if not over-valued, certainly very highly valued proportionate to its turnover) it would come from a huge (but non-marque, and hence unknown to geeks) IP investment firm like Eurazeo (new owners of Asmodee, Days of Wonder and Fantasy Flight).
Weeeell, imagine what you can do if GW is put under WotC. Suddenly, Warhammer becomes a part of D&D universes officially. Or a Warhammer-themed block for M:tG.
Unlikely, though. And I dunno if it's worth buying GW for.
The eventual goal is to be able to negotiate with whoever holds the licenses in the 20's to be able to completely re-do the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (and, indeed the ENTIRE Tolkien canon, from the Ainulindalë on) as a ten season cable series that spans all Three Ages of Arda, plus the earlier ten ages prior to the waking of the Children of Ilúvatar.
MB
That sounds....boring. Tolkien created a rich world and part of that was due to all of the background information he built into it; however, having read the Simarillion, I nearly scooped my eyes out with spoons from boredom and I hold a degree in history and am used to reading things that basically read like the bible (so and so begat so and so and so on). I seriously can't imagine that work translating well to the small or large screen; people will fall-down dead in their seats from lack of caring about how Ea was created or disharmonious singing powers. Furthermore, there are so many contrived names that people will just give up and not care. People can keep up with a small band of adventurers because there's a finite pool of characters but the books of the Silmarillion literally read like a historical or religious text which is why I think Robert M. Adams had it right when he opined that more people would buy the book than actually read it due to the success of Tolkien's previous works.
Anywho. Off-topic but, for the love of all that is holy make up some stuff if you do this project to at least make a pretense of it being actually interesting to more than a handful of hardcore nerds.
The first time I was in college I got a chance to study with Joseph Campbell dealing with mythic and narrative structures.
I had been studying Campbell since I was 15, and have continued that study in the 30 years since.
There are narrative structures that would make the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta completely understandable to any audience.
And despite people's difficulty with the names (I am always puzzled at that difficulty) not all of them need to be explicitly given in order for the work to hold together, as they are peripheral characters who are not specifically identified beyond the omniscient voice of the writing.
Plus... We also have Narn à chin Hurin,Unfinished Tales, The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Tales from the Perilous Realm (only a few of which are both explicitly and specifically applicable to Middle-earth, but all of which are tied to Ëa), Bilbo's Last Song, and the Twelve Volumes of The History of Middle-earth, to say nothing of the roughly twice this volume in unpublished material at Marquette and Oxford Universities.
We have realized that some of the cannon will need narrative expansion (filling in specifics and stories to create episodes in the 2nd and 3rd Ages prior to the end of The Watchful Peace.
But none of that would require the alteration of the canon (changing what already exists in Middle-earth, Arda, or Ëa, as Peter Jackson did in destroying most of the 2nd and 3rd Ages in his warped depiction of what people claim is a movie of Tolkien's The Hobbit.
Those movies are no more The Hobbit than are give guys in black robes handing out pizza and beer in an auditorium are Communion during a Catholic Mass. Both happen to have content that shares a few features, but the essential elements of each are absent from both.
It is not as difficult to bring a story from a book to any screen and have it be entertaining as people make it out to be. One of the BIGGEST mistakes is in thinking that there must be changes to the story to do so. Only the narrative structure is in play. The details of plot can remain precisely fixed, down to lifting the dialog directly from the book.... Take a look at a movie that pretty much did this (To Kill a Mockingbird), and you will see one of the best adaptations of a book to the screen in existence.
As for GW....
I doubt they are going anywhere soon.
But given their direction, it may well be that they surrender certain aspects of their licenses as they move further from the mainstream gaming industry and further and further into niche territory.
Vash108 wrote: Going to say what I say every time this thread pops up in one way or another.
Fantasy Flight will buy them and everything will be good.
I think that is very unlikely... but I really wish that it would happen.
The Auld Grump
Not that I wouldn't be happy for GW's worlds to managed with the respect and affection FFG seem able to provide, not only is FFG's turnover less than 1/4 GW's, they are - as I already pointed out - already owned by someone else, and in no place to make an offer on a business with a c$200 million market cap.
Vash108 wrote: Going to say what I say every time this thread pops up in one way or another.
Fantasy Flight will buy them and everything will be good.
I think that is very unlikely... but I really wish that it would happen.
The Auld Grump
Not that I wouldn't be happy for GW's worlds to managed with the respect and affection FFG seem able to provide, not only is FFG's turnover less than 1/4 GW's, they are - as I already pointed out - already owned by someone else, and in no place to make an offer on a business with a c$200 million market cap.
Give it a few more years, considering GW's trends over the last few years.
They either run with it and the game continues: we also find out what focus the new owner has.
OR
Someone sits on it. Does nothing. Decides nothing. It gets fan supported. People wait to see if the hammer drops with a cease and desist.
- IF nothing is said by the owner it lives in a zombie state with the insane amount of models floating around, may even see some growth from fan "better" rules.
- IF something IS said. The game dies. Dead. Done. We tried.
Talizvar wrote: Say they go bankrupt from some insane fluke.
Someone will get / buy the IP.
They either run with it and the game continues: we also find out what focus the new owner has.
OR
Someone sits on it. Does nothing. Decides nothing. It gets fan supported. People wait to see if the hammer drops with a cease and desist.
- IF nothing is said by the owner it lives in a zombie state with the insane amount of models floating around, may even see some growth from fan "better" rules.
- IF something IS said. The game dies. Dead. Done. We tried.
OR
No one bothers buying it because it really is not worth as much as GW believes that it is worth. (Not the case now - it currently still has some value - but given time I believe that Kirby and the Kronies can wring everything positive out of both of GW's primary properties.)
The Auld Grump... until even MLP40K looks good. (In The Grim Darkness Of The Future, Friendship Is Magic.)
I see GW very much in the same boots as TSR and the current death of Radio Shack.
Overall, I think GW has become aware *something* is wrong, but because of their lack of merchant research, yesman mentality and social media isolation they have little to no idea what the real issue is.
Couple that together with a company that can't turn around on a dime - I'm sure it takes 6-8 months *minimum* for them to design a new model kit or product. They can't quickly pull out of a nosedive because of the turnaround schedule, even if they had a clue what was wrong.
By the time they see that hitting the pavement is inevitable, Kirby will have already pulled his golden parachute.
Stormonu wrote: Couple that together with a company that can't turn around on a dime - I'm sure it takes 6-8 months *minimum* for them to design a new model kit or product. They can't quickly pull out of a nosedive because of the turnaround schedule, even if they had a clue what was wrong.
You're forgetting about their ability to borrow. They have existing credit relationships with more than one financial institution (see their reports) and can likely operate for multiple years losing money.
The WFB rumours are already showing that GW can and will change directions when a product line fails. 8th edition was touted in an earlier report as a means of reversing the negative trend in sales during the last year of 7th edition. It didn't work and now they're doing massive changes. If 40k goes through a similar decline, they will have learned a lot about how to turn around a declining product with their relaunch of fantasy (be it in terms of what to do or in terms of what not to do).
By the time they see that hitting the pavement is inevitable, Kirby will have already pulled his golden parachute.
Kirby will likely formally retire before GW goes away. His golden parachute is already fully funded. He's a multimillionaire just off of LOTR bonuses from 2003 & 2004, not to mention the huge dividend and CEO's salary he's collected over the years. And when the time comes to divest himself of his shares, he's got enough contacts among the institutional investors who currently hold the majority of GW's shares to arrange a private sale. Or perhaps he'll use his clout on the board to exercise their right to buy back his shares (as authorized at GW's annual meeting every year).
A big toy company like Hasbro buys the 40k and Fantasy licenses, they chuck out all the Codexes and Rulebooks, squat the least selling armies and reorganize the best sellers into a game of about four or five races a piece.
This will most likely be Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks on the 40k side and Empire, Elves, Undead, Warriors of Chaos, and Skaven on the Fantasy side.
They'll scrap all metal and finecast and use the assets that GW already has: their production lines, molds, plastics, paints, and all that, but undertake a massive 'repackaging' that puts everything under their own name and title.
They scrap the whole design studio, make their own in-house rules made to play on a smaller board, scrap terrain, scrap the paint, scrap the other tools, and create a streamlined, packaged experience where you buy whole sets of armies at packaged prices with rules for that army in the box, along with truncated rulebooks in each box to cover the 'USRs' and turns and such.
Worst case scenario:
They sell off their individual production assets in China, sell anything they can in the form of raw material (plastic, paper, etc), sack everyone, and the game fades into nonexistence, played by people still complaining that the game is unbalanced and getting model kits from Chinese knock-offers.
I think the only thing we can all agree on is that IF (since it will never happen) GW went bankrupt.
The only recourse would be the following.
A)Geiko would not save you 15% or more any longer on car insurance
B) The Dos Sekes (sp?) guy would stop drinking Dos Sekes, hence no longer making him the most interesting man in the world
C) and Chuck Norris would die
and maybe
D) I would apologize to Azreal13, recognizing him being a superior mind when it comes to GW and the great doomsday prophecy ability, unlocking much of his brain making him a world superpower no doubt.
Kindly demonstrate how it is impossible for any company to go bankrupt.
Then, kindly demonstrate how a company that has struggled to maintain it's financial performance for a number of years with a series of price increases and cost cutting measures can continue to do so with revenue falling towards their break even point and a decreasing list of costs that can be feasibly cut cannot possibly go bankrupt.
Show your working.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and snark all you want, I'm not responsible for your or anyone else's ignorance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AND, for the record, I have repeated until blue in the face that I do not predict, nor desire, the imminent demise of GW, I simp,y want them to act more like a normal company that talks to it's customer and responds to them, and the only way that'll happen is if people stop rewarding their crummy business practices with money.
Somehow, anything more complex than "if you're not mainlining the Koolaid that means you're a hater" seems to elude posters of a "certain view."
Oh Az.... it was joke, not a snark, dont take things so personal.
For the record i didnt say it was impossible for "any company" to go bankrupt. I said GW (one company specifically) will never go bankrupt. You're already stretching the wording to have some long drawn out hypothesis on a "what if". We already had this debate Az about a year ago, basically the same type of thread... And for the year It seems like I was right, GW survived another year and not bankrupt.
And certainly this topic will come up again sooner or later, and for some its doomsday in the making for GW and for others we will read, enjoy, and disagree. Its not ignorance to declare something will never happen. However it is insanity to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
However the topic was "what happens IF GW goes bankrupt"
I stand by my answers.
Oh you edited your post: "AND, for the record, I have repeated until blue in the face that I do not predict, nor desire, the imminent demise of GW, I simp,y want them to act more like a normal company that talks to it's customer and responds to them, and the only way that'll happen is if people stop rewarding their crummy business practices with money. "
I didnt say you WANT them to fall apart... I said you have stated it is a real possibility basically for the reasoning you gave above.
"Somehow, anything more complex than "if you're not mainlining the Koolaid that means you're a hater" seems to elude posters of a "certain view."
I think it was you reading more into what I wrote this time, appose to what I wrote.
Tone does not convey well in text always, and whatever your intent, your content was very similar to many people who seem to believe GW cannot possibly go bankrupt, or cease to exist in a different way, based on nothing but blind faith.
The fact is, there is hard evidence to support my view which is GW is on a rocky road if something doesn't change. If you disagree, that's fine, but I don't accept "because" as valid reasoning. If you're going to contradict me, you can be damn sure I'm going to insist on some substance to your contradictions.
I even got attacked for making arguments supported by GW's own figures the other week, down in 40K Discussion, by some of the rather more rabid true believers who weren't in possession of the facts, or, frankly, the knowledge to understand them, so don't be surprised if my reflex is inclined to the defensive.
It also needs a definition of exactly constitutes "bankrupt." That's quite a specific term, and only one way GW could disappear, or cease to be recognisable in their current form.
Azreal i know we disagree a lot. But I respect what you say and take what you say at face value. No offense was meant nor taken. I admire your zeal and conviction on your views, the thing about the internet is people are always going to lash out or find a reason to hate on anything anyone says, you know this. Me I am not the person who gets all worked up with rage typing behind a monitor over a game. Sadly tone does not transpire over the internet, and when 2 people people disagree, it may look like malicious fist flaying.
Having dealt with GMAC as a mortgage lender here in the USA, I understand how some companies think they are to big to fail. I don't see GW thinking they cant fail. And for every horror story about them, there is someone who had a good experience. Now I am not saying they do the right thing 100% of time. I am saying from all my years of dealing with them and from my personal knowledge of facts. GW has more chance of making it then failing, because they know Failure is a possibility and try to improve. Now the improvements sometimes might be terrible to many, but they are trying. The day they think they are to big to fail, my tone will switch on them.
I see GW as a company that must get flooded with complaints and questions. 10% have validity and 90% is people complaining for the sake of complaining, writing emails because they don't understand the wording in a book, or just emo kids blaming something because their friends destroy them at the game.
EXAMPLE: New Necron codex. A specific formation says 1 unit of scarabs, 1 UNIT of wraiths, and then 1 tomb spider (no UNIT)
But because the formation would be so much more potent if you could take a unit of spiders appose to just 1. There have already been countless post across the internet arguing RAW, RAI, "GW needs to FAQ to clearify"... blah blah blah... Yet the wording is pretty clear. I can only imagine the amount of calls or emails that flood GW over this. And when those complaints are not all answered, GW is evil. Post get created, more attention is put on it, and it opens the flood gate.
This is just one paragraph in a page in a book with 100's of pages in it, part of a game that has many more books.
People wanted more models, GW made them, but people still dislike them.
People wanted more up to date 40k codex to help balance the game. GW did the codex transition in a timely manner, yet people are still saying one codex sucks, or this one is OP or simply complaining. Or the writer of X codex is terrible human.
People started complaining the models were over priced, yet I dont recall big price hikes recently. And with the extra bits and sprues in box sets I dont see most as over priced (the last i recall would be 10 which elves for $60). Again, this is all interpretation and opinion, and I am sure people will disagree and thats their opinion.
I guess my point is, they are trying it seems. And to me doing just fine with the product lines, rules, codex release, and pricing.
It's a joke on your wording. Were we to make a bet on there never being a demise of GW then I'd have everything to win and nothing to lose. You cannot prove that GW will "never" fail in any sense while I only need one instance of their ending as a business to win. It's a "sucker's bet" and never is a long time.
*I am not Ken Lobb, nor am I named after the fictitious weapon in Goldeneye for the Nintendo 64. There's a second B.
I see GW as a company that must get flooded with complaints and questions. 10% have validity and 90% is people complaining for the sake of complaining, writing emails because they don't understand the wording in a book, or just emo kids blaming something because their friends destroy them at the game.
EXAMPLE: New Necron codex. A specific formation says 1 unit of scarabs, 1 UNIT of wraiths, and then 1 tomb spider (no UNIT)
But because the formation would be so much more potent if you could take a unit of spiders appose to just 1. There have already been countless post across the internet arguing RAW, RAI, "GW needs to FAQ to clearify"... blah blah blah... Yet the wording is pretty clear. I can only imagine the amount of calls or emails that flood GW over this. And when those complaints are not all answered, GW is evil. Post get created, more attention is put on it, and it opens the flood gate.
This is just one paragraph in a page in a book with 100's of pages in it, part of a game that has many more books.
Maybe if they wrote clear rules these arguments wouldn't happen. If that how it's worded it's pretty clear but we're talkng about a company that has a track record for writing vague rules that require interpretation of exactly what the hell they actually intend it to be. There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past.
I see GW as a company that must get flooded with complaints and questions. 10% have validity and 90% is people complaining for the sake of complaining, writing emails because they don't understand the wording in a book, or just emo kids blaming something because their friends destroy them at the game.
EXAMPLE: New Necron codex. A specific formation says 1 unit of scarabs, 1 UNIT of wraiths, and then 1 tomb spider (no UNIT)
But because the formation would be so much more potent if you could take a unit of spiders appose to just 1. There have already been countless post across the internet arguing RAW, RAI, "GW needs to FAQ to clearify"... blah blah blah... Yet the wording is pretty clear. I can only imagine the amount of calls or emails that flood GW over this. And when those complaints are not all answered, GW is evil. Post get created, more attention is put on it, and it opens the flood gate.
This is just one paragraph in a page in a book with 100's of pages in it, part of a game that has many more books.
Maybe if they wrote clear rules these arguments wouldn't happen. If that how it's worded it's pretty clear but we're talking about a company that has a track record for writing vague rules that require interpretation of exactly what the hell they actually intend it to be. There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past.
Hahahah, Sorry, the entries writing is clear (If you are on toilet and you run out of toilet paper, you yell out and say grab me a roll of toilet paper, does your significant other stop to ask if you want 1 case of rolled toilet paper, or just 1 roll? Imagine if he/she opened the door and threw a case of 36 mega rolls at you?) Cmon...
Its the nitpicking and having a lack of fundamental understanding that creates the problem 90% of the time. It says 1 spider, it is 1 SPIDER.. It does not say Unit as the other 2 entries. People can throw their opinion out all they want, they can complain because of the history, they can make an argument because ti benefits their list, they can claim this rule is vague or whatever but just read it for what it says and move on.
To argue that "There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past." when it indeed says 1 spider and not 1 unit of spiders, is really grasping for straws. To make any argument because of watever reason, is nothing more than creating more of the problem and needless complaining. It says, 1 Spider, it means 1 spider, get over it and move on.... Let go of the "they did this is in 2013 with the wording in X so they must be meaning X even though they wrote Y.
But most cannot, and they bombard GW, forums, and blogs about how terrible GW is. Yet the very same people are still buying the models and playing the game. I think GW is at the point where they must have a contest for the most ridiculous complaint or question about the rules each month and just laugh and have a field day with it. They have come to terms they will never satisfy everyone or certain type of people. Then they realize business is going to be just fine still and stop wasting time and energy on the those who will never be satisfied.
Frankly some people love to think they are a better writer, historian, or sculptor than anyone at GW. Just like the constant people bashing anything Star Wars related, "luke is old", "carrie is fat", "the new light saber looks stupid".... Yet the same bloggers will go see the movie, and Star Wars will continue to be a phenomenon .
I guess in the end, this topic will die down and about a year from now this thread will start again.
Play the game and have fun with it, if their is a vague rule, roll off on it. Most tourneys have structured formats and caps of rulings, just go and have some fun with the game.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
Are making reference to the item being bought and not operating, to the Necron Codex?
No one knows whats in the Codex... so you are not buying it knowing. "There is this wicked formation, that allows a unit of spiders and X also". You do not know what is in the book, now if photos are leaked of the book and you see that entry, then you saw the wording prior to buying the codex, and you see it says 1 spider, hence you know how the item is going to operate.
Now perhaps there are other points that have happened to better validate what you said. I am not disputing that. I am simply stating that the Necron codex formation in question is not one of those points, and the fact that so much is created over it is nonsense and more flubber and garbage GW has to deal with, or more fire thrown on the 'GW is terrible fire'. When it should in fact be none of the above.
Also, the rules I dont think are written to target a specific person. I think they opened the flood gates, by allowing LoW, or dual cads or whatever. And while I self impose restrictions when I play in tourneys, I like the idea of the 40k world in chaos. I like that Orks and Necrons are going to team up to vanquish bugs. I like that Necrons are pissed so they brought some big super heavy to battle.
What I do not like is the named characters abuse, like someone fielding. Draigo, Tigerius and Severin Loth all in the same 1850 list... Like really all these big wigs showed up to this little skirmish? But I know its out there and available to others, I know I will see it so I prepare for and just be solution oriented when it happens. If I lose to it, i simply shake hands and move on understanding its part of the game, I willfully choose to participate in.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
It's also nice to have a rule set where I don't have to have a discussion over 5 difernt rules just to get though a game :0 .
If GW where to die, I would mostly only be sad to be losing a lot of the alternative minis, as they may strugle without the alternative market making them viable as a business.
They put out way better stuff than GW have been, and even the less polished ones can have a lot of charecter to them.
In the end in 10 years GW probably wouldn't be missed outside of small little community's, 20 years killing it off allmost completly I imagine after GW failed.
If there IP is picked up, then that's good. But I honestly don't think it's worth enough, outside of the game industry it hasent got enough to make it a big purchase. (At least nothing proved yet)
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
It's not only about dickholes either. For example, back when the SM codex came out, it was very clear to me that vehicles got cover saves from grav weapons, and it was very clear to my mate that they didn't. Six months later the FAQ proved me right, but until then what were we supposed to do? Dice off? Once, or every game? Argue about it? Never play again? Do it my way? Do it his way? No matter what, one of us feels like we're playing the game wrong to his detriment and his opponent's benefit.
Of course, we're both (somewhat) reasonable adults, so we came to an agreement (ruled it my way) on how we'd deal with it after talking to some of the other guys at our club, and my mate had no problems accepting it, and had it gone the other way I'd accept it too, but every time my vehicles wouldn't get a cover save I'm sure I'd feel just a little bit salty.
It's not the end of the world, we both still enjoy 40k, our games are always tons of fun, but these issues are detriments to that fun, and especially so since competent rules writing would remove that detriment altogether.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
Are making reference to the item being bought and not operating, to the Necron Codex?
No one knows whats in the Codex... so you are not buying it knowing. "There is this wicked formation, that allows a unit of spiders and X also". You do not know what is in the book, now if photos are leaked of the book and you see that entry, then you saw the wording prior to buying the codex, and you see it says 1 spider, hence you know how the item is going to operate.
Also, the rules I dont think are written to target a specific person. I think they opened the flood gates, by allowing LoW, or dual cads or whatever. And while I self impose restrictions when I play in tourneys, I like the idea of the 40k world in chaos. I like that Orks and Necrons are going to team up to vanquish bugs. I like that Necrons are pissed so they brought some big super heavy to battle.
What I do not like is the named characters abuse, like someone fielding. Draigo, Tigerius and Severin Loth all in the same 1850 list... Like really all these big wigs showed up to this little skirmish? But I know its out there and available to others, I know I will see it so I prepare for and just be solution oriented when it happens. If I lose to it, i simply shake hands and move on understanding its part of the game.
Rules being confusing is not as big a sin as their overall complexity and simultaneous shallowness and that's behind the gross imbalances in the game where some units are over powered and some are near useless.
Oh, there are so many problems to choose from.
And saying "GW will never go out of business" is a little absurd. I'm not saying they will, but never is a big word.
Hmmm....things that people thought would never go under. Roman Empire. TSR. Constantinople. Mel Gibson. Sears catalog. Blockbuster. Titanic.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
Are making reference to the item being bought and not operating, to the Necron Codex?
No one knows whats in the Codex... so you are not buying it knowing. "There is this wicked formation, that allows a unit of spiders and X also". You do not know what is in the book, now if photos are leaked of the book and you see that entry, then you saw the wording prior to buying the codex, and you see it says 1 spider, hence you know how the item is going to operate.
Also, the rules I dont think are written to target a specific person. I think they opened the flood gates, by allowing LoW, or dual cads or whatever. And while I self impose restrictions when I play in tourneys, I like the idea of the 40k world in chaos. I like that Orks and Necrons are going to team up to vanquish bugs. I like that Necrons are pissed so they brought some big super heavy to battle.
What I do not like is the named characters abuse, like someone fielding. Draigo, Tigerius and Severin Loth all in the same 1850 list... Like really all these big wigs showed up to this little skirmish? But I know its out there and available to others, I know I will see it so I prepare for and just be solution oriented when it happens. If I lose to it, i simply shake hands and move on understanding its part of the game.
Rules being confusing is not as big a sin as their overall complexity and simultaneous shallowness and that's behind the gross imbalances in the game where some units are over powered and some are near useless.
Oh, there are so many problems to choose from.
And saying "GW will never go out of business" is a little absurd. I'm not saying they will, but never is a big word.
Hmmm....things that people thought would never go under. Roman Empire. TSR. Constantinople. Mel Gibson. Sears catalog. Blockbuster. Titanic.
I see your points. First i dont think the rules are over complex to a point of what people make it, sure some spots are shaky. But in the end its not terrible and most of the lodged complaints on rulings or whatever is nothing more than over picking or grasping for straws. And you are right, some units are great and have great synergy and some units are terrible, but people buy units for fluff, collection, or make a competitive list so I think I am missing how this is a bad thing.
You're right, to claim it is NEVER going to happen is probably absurd and far fetched. I'll move my opinion into the highly unlikely, 5% chance category. Well unless someone like Tiberius, Caligula, or Nero take over then I'm on board with its demise...
As for list and Armies being overpowered or whatever. Tournies are setting restrictions on how to deal, most tourneys have the rules prior to signing up. But even when someone brings a list, that has No Formations, No lords of war,
No named characters, no dataslates, no forgeworld, no knight titans, and is only using one source book, that ends up winning a GT... That persons list is still dissected and said to be overpowered.
And you are right, some units are great and have great synergy and some units are terrible, but people buy units for fluff, collection, or make a competitive list so I think I am missing how this is a bad thing.
Because many people play for the fluff. When they play their favorite unit and see that's its comically bad on the table, they get frustrated and disenchanted.
And you are right, some units are great and have great synergy and some units are terrible, but people buy units for fluff, collection, or make a competitive list so I think I am missing how this is a bad thing.
Because many people play for the fluff. When they play their favorite unit and see that's its comically bad on the table, they get frustrated and disenchanted.
I guess I dont see that all that much. I see people using there most potent units, or anything they read on the internet and when they as a player are terrible, they go ranting off on how GW is doomed, or the rules suck, or whatever.
I myself have a fluff list using units I dont think are all that great. Its those games that are the most fun, testing myself and knowing my list is severely out matched.
I play a lot of tournies in my area and a few GT's each year.
I see about a lot playing list to win, but more than that I see people playing for the love of them using "terrible units/list" and yet have a good time every time I see them..... And then there are the people in column C, as per my sig.
Crimson Heretic wrote: somebody would buy it, if companys are stupid enough to keep buying chrysler over and over and over again, then GW will be snatched right up.
Agreed, In reality this could happen before they went bankrupt, as banking entities are very shy of holding onto a sinking ship, I look forward to this day. How could anyone frak it up anymore than they have already.
If GW where to die, I would mostly only be sad to be losing a lot of the alternative minis, as they may strugle without the alternative market making them viable as a business.
I think it could almost go the other way. There are a million and one people out there wanting to publish rule sets, but without a miniatures line to go with them they often flounder. Talk about a reset...Victoria, Chapterhouse or who have you could just step in with their own rules for their existing model line that no longer has to compete with the GW status quo....and away they go.
This of course assumes that they have at least some line of full kits, not just conversion bits.
Out of curiosity, could a company sue for IP infringement after bankruptcy?
Chute82 wrote: The difference between Chrysler and GW is I don't think GW will get a government bail out. Chrysler has been on the government tit for a long time
If GW where to die, I would mostly only be sad to be losing a lot of the alternative minis, as they may strugle without the alternative market making them viable as a business.
I think it could almost go the other way. There are a million and one people out there wanting to publish rule sets, but without a miniatures line to go with them they often flounder. Talk about a reset...Victoria, Chapterhouse or who have you could just step in with their own rules for their existing model line that no longer has to compete with the GW status quo....and away they go.
This of course assumes that they have at least some line of full kits, not just conversion bits.
Out of curiosity, could a company sue for IP infringement after bankruptcy?
.
The ones with full units defenatly could, as they could also get more units to fill in the gaps faster.
A few commanders and some vechles could get so,e of them up and running as full army's at Victoria, and I would probably have allready buy them :p.
Otherwise yes, it is still something they can enforce, but it could also mean that any company looking to purchase GW need more convincing that they are infact getting something for there money,
From a IP perspective GW has only a few strong things, with a lot of it rather normal sci fi/fantasy, which is a good thing from our perspective with familiarity and a grasp of concepts. But for a potential buyer they may worry that it isn't enough and consider the price to much and less effort to just make something new,
It's allways tough to predict what the future will hold.
Maybe if they wrote clear rules these arguments wouldn't happen. If that how it's worded it's pretty clear but we're talkng about a company that has a track record for writing vague rules that require interpretation of exactly what the hell they actually intend it to be. There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past.
GW's rule writing is clear as Rocky Mountain Spring Water when compared to the rules like DBA/DBMM written by Phil Barker.
Here is an example of his writing:
If total is half or less than half that of its opponent Cavalry. Flee from Pikes, Spears or Hoards if in good going, or Artilery in Close Combat. If not Destroyed.
Light Horse. Destroyed by any mounted, Artillery shooting, Bows or Psiloi, or if in bad going. If not Flee.
Psiloi. Destroyed by Knights, Cavalry, Camelry, or Light Horse if in going these count as good or by Bows, Auxiliary or Psiloi. If not,
Flee.
All others. Recoil from Artillery in close combat. If not, Destroyed.
If you look closely atthse,there are about four different interpretations for all of the conditionals "if such and such..."
For instance, is it spears and hoards that need to be in good going go for Cavalry to flee from them? Or is it the Cavalry that need to be in Good Going? Or is it just the Hoards about which we need to ask this question, and the Cavalry always flees from Spears?
You can see in the other "outcomes" similarly confusing wording.
And this is perhaps an example of his clearest writing.
GW at least knows how to use Bullet Points (which the above "table" could be clearly written using bullet points, or an ACTUAL Table).
I won't say they don't have some issues with confusing rules. That seems to be par for the course with any Wargames. But they are among the minor offenders when looking at the broader scope.
If GW where to die, I would mostly only be sad to be losing a lot of the alternative minis, as they may strugle without the alternative market making them viable as a business.
I think it could almost go the other way. There are a million and one people out there wanting to publish rule sets, but without a miniatures line to go with them they often flounder. Talk about a reset...Victoria, Chapterhouse or who have you could just step in with their own rules for their existing model line that no longer has to compete with the GW status quo....and away they go.
This of course assumes that they have at least some line of full kits, not just conversion bits.
Out of curiosity, could a company sue for IP infringement after bankruptcy?
I don't think a rules set needs a miniatures line to be successful.
There are several Sci-Fi sets from the 1980's that were very successful for a while, yet were generic.
What I find is more relevant is:
Does the company support their rules by regular convention or game store events?
Without support, any game will die.
Having a dedicated miniatures line is just one form of dedicated support... And one of they better means of support (look at how much more successful Flames of War has been than other WWII rules sets, due to simply producing a dedicated miniatures line).
But your point is appropriate in that respect, if we take it to mean that most game rules simply do not support their rules worth a damn. By any means (of which a Miniature line is the best means).
well people played older editions of D&D (3.5) for a very long time. It had no miniatures and no updates to the system. 40k could carry on, but finding people would become more and more difficult. As unlike D&D, is much harder to play with rocks and paper cutouts.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
Are making reference to the item being bought and not operating, to the Necron Codex?
No one knows whats in the Codex... so you are not buying it knowing. "There is this wicked formation, that allows a unit of spiders and X also". You do not know what is in the book, now if photos are leaked of the book and you see that entry, then you saw the wording prior to buying the codex, and you see it says 1 spider, hence you know how the item is going to operate.
Now perhaps there are other points that have happened to better validate what you said. I am not disputing that. I am simply stating that the Necron codex formation in question is not one of those points, and the fact that so much is created over it is nonsense and more flubber and garbage GW has to deal with, or more fire thrown on the 'GW is terrible fire'. When it should in fact be none of the above.
Also, the rules I dont think are written to target a specific person. I think they opened the flood gates, by allowing LoW, or dual cads or whatever. And while I self impose restrictions when I play in tourneys, I like the idea of the 40k world in chaos. I like that Orks and Necrons are going to team up to vanquish bugs. I like that Necrons are pissed so they brought some big super heavy to battle.
What I do not like is the named characters abuse, like someone fielding. Draigo, Tigerius and Severin Loth all in the same 1850 list... Like really all these big wigs showed up to this little skirmish? But I know its out there and available to others, I know I will see it so I prepare for and just be solution oriented when it happens. If I lose to it, i simply shake hands and move on understanding its part of the game, I willfully choose to participate in.
Sorry to detonate what is a fairly substantial wall of text that I'm sure took time and thought, but, no, at no time was I referencing the Necron codex, just your line about rolling off if you can't agree.
gwarsh41 wrote: well people played older editions of D&D (3.5) for a very long time. It had no miniatures and no updates to the system. 40k could carry on, but finding people would become more and more difficult. As unlike D&D, is much harder to play with rocks and paper cutouts.
I still play 3.5.
I play in small groups and we can agree to play whatever we want because there's not an overall competitive meta out there like there is in wargames. What I'm trying to say is: You don't show up for pick up games at the store for D&D like you do with tabletop miniature games.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
Are making reference to the item being bought and not operating, to the Necron Codex?
No one knows whats in the Codex... so you are not buying it knowing. "There is this wicked formation, that allows a unit of spiders and X also". You do not know what is in the book, now if photos are leaked of the book and you see that entry, then you saw the wording prior to buying the codex, and you see it says 1 spider, hence you know how the item is going to operate.
Now perhaps there are other points that have happened to better validate what you said. I am not disputing that. I am simply stating that the Necron codex formation in question is not one of those points, and the fact that so much is created over it is nonsense and more flubber and garbage GW has to deal with, or more fire thrown on the 'GW is terrible fire'. When it should in fact be none of the above.
Also, the rules I dont think are written to target a specific person. I think they opened the flood gates, by allowing LoW, or dual cads or whatever. And while I self impose restrictions when I play in tourneys, I like the idea of the 40k world in chaos. I like that Orks and Necrons are going to team up to vanquish bugs. I like that Necrons are pissed so they brought some big super heavy to battle.
What I do not like is the named characters abuse, like someone fielding. Draigo, Tigerius and Severin Loth all in the same 1850 list... Like really all these big wigs showed up to this little skirmish? But I know its out there and available to others, I know I will see it so I prepare for and just be solution oriented when it happens. If I lose to it, i simply shake hands and move on understanding its part of the game, I willfully choose to participate in.
Sorry to detonate what is a fairly substantial wall of text that I'm sure took time and thought, but, no, at no time was I referencing the Necron codex, just your line about rolling off if you can't agree.
gwarsh41 wrote: well people played older editions of D&D (3.5) for a very long time. It had no miniatures and no updates to the system. 40k could carry on, but finding people would become more and more difficult. As unlike D&D, is much harder to play with rocks and paper cutouts.
I still play 3.5.
I play in small groups and we can agree to play whatever we want because there's not an overall competitive meta out there like there is in wargames. What I'm trying to say is: You don't show up for pick up games at the store for D&D like you do with tabletop miniature games.
I don't go to a store to pick-up games for wargaming. I just play at friends houses. That way, I don't have to deal with TFG's out of the blue.
I'll tell you what would happen. It would be a glorious day for the Warhammer Universe. Because whoever buys the IP cannot possibly feth it up any worse than GW has.
The company that would most likely to buy GW's IPs would be Asmodee/Fantasy Flight Games. They already make lots of Warhammer related games: Deathwatch, Relic, Conquest. And they do a great job with them. In fact I have been saying for years that GW, to save their game, should let Fantasy Flight write the rules. Since GW is constantly reaffirming their stance that their a games company. Thats fine with me. Now stop writing rules and let a better company do it.
Ken52682 wrote: I'll tell you what would happen. It would be a glorious day for the Warhammer Universe. Because whoever buys the IP cannot possibly feth it up any worse than GW has.
The company that would most likely to buy GW's IPs would be Asmodee/Fantasy Flight Games. They already make lots of Warhammer related games: Deathwatch, Relic, Conquest. And they do a great job with them. In fact I have been saying for years that GW, to save their game, should let Fantasy Flight write the rules. Since GW is constantly reaffirming their stance that their a games company. Thats fine with me. Now stop writing rules and let a better company do it.
That's something I would totally get behind. The rules right now are horrible, all things considered.
GW's rule writing is clear as Rocky Mountain Spring Water when compared to the rules like DBA/DBMM written by Phil Barker.
Here is an example of his writing:
If total is half or less than half that of its opponent Cavalry. Flee from Pikes, Spears or Hoards if in good going, or Artilery in Close Combat. If not Destroyed.
Light Horse. Destroyed by any mounted, Artillery shooting, Bows or Psiloi, or if in bad going. If not Flee.
Psiloi. Destroyed by Knights, Cavalry, Camelry, or Light Horse if in going these count as good or by Bows, Auxiliary or Psiloi. If not,
Flee.
All others. Recoil from Artillery in close combat. If not, Destroyed.
If you look closely atthse,there are about four different interpretations for all of the conditionals "if such and such..."
For instance, is it spears and hoards that need to be in good going go for Cavalry to flee from them? Or is it the Cavalry that need to be in Good Going? Or is it just the Hoards about which we need to ask this question, and the Cavalry always flees from Spears?
You can see in the other "outcomes" similarly confusing wording.
And this is perhaps an example of his clearest writing.
GW at least knows how to use Bullet Points (which the above "table" could be clearly written using bullet points, or an ACTUAL Table).
I won't say they don't have some issues with confusing rules. That seems to be par for the course with any Wargames. But they are among the minor offenders when looking at the broader scope.
MB
Perhaps. But if you consider also that GW:
--Have a much higher budget to spend on editing, proofreading and (in theory) playtesting.
--Have been operating with essentially the same system for the last 16-odd years.
--Have a much broader fanbase and far more opportunities (even if they're not taken) for feedback on busted rules and things that need clarifying.
GW's rule writing is clear as Rocky Mountain Spring Water when compared to the rules like DBA/DBMM written by Phil Barker.
Here is an example of his writing:
If total is half or less than half that of its opponent Cavalry. Flee from Pikes, Spears or Hoards if in good going, or Artilery in Close Combat. If not Destroyed.
Light Horse. Destroyed by any mounted, Artillery shooting, Bows or Psiloi, or if in bad going. If not Flee.
Psiloi. Destroyed by Knights, Cavalry, Camelry, or Light Horse if in going these count as good or by Bows, Auxiliary or Psiloi. If not,
Flee.
All others. Recoil from Artillery in close combat. If not, Destroyed.
If you look closely atthse,there are about four different interpretations for all of the conditionals "if such and such..."
For instance, is it spears and hoards that need to be in good going go for Cavalry to flee from them? Or is it the Cavalry that need to be in Good Going? Or is it just the Hoards about which we need to ask this question, and the Cavalry always flees from Spears?
You can see in the other "outcomes" similarly confusing wording.
And this is perhaps an example of his clearest writing.
GW at least knows how to use Bullet Points (which the above "table" could be clearly written using bullet points, or an ACTUAL Table).
I won't say they don't have some issues with confusing rules. That seems to be par for the course with any Wargames. But they are among the minor offenders when looking at the broader scope.
MB
Perhaps. But if you consider also that GW:
--Have a much higher budget to spend on editing, proofreading and (in theory) playtesting.
--Have been operating with essentially the same system for the last 16-odd years.
--Have a much broader fanbase and far more opportunities (even if they're not taken) for feedback on busted rules and things that need clarifying.
Then there are far fewer excuses to be made.
From having participated in the process of play testing the DBX rules, and WHFB, in the 1980's, when GW actually put more effort into play testing. Neither company "spends" anything on play-testing (they don't pay play-testers).
The problem stems from one person in the WRG play testing pipeline, who has been informed untold thousands upon thousands of times (so it is not like he is unaware that people have problems with the rules.
Outside of WHFB, DBA has the largest, most active fan base I have seen in terms of support for the game.
There are some very popular websites that are known to the author, which have rules clarifications.
His response was to condemn these efforts, and to mock those who have pointed out (again, and again, and again) that there are problems with the rules.
As for print budgets.... Given that the rules sell out within days of the first print run being released, and he knew this would happen, due to the scarcity of past issues, and their rather high sales on eBay, it isn't a question of budget, either. The actual "rules" for DBA, for instances are only four to five pages long. DBMM has a slightly larger rule book, but it still pales in comparison to the page counts of any GW product. Adding a few more pages to introduce bullet-points, and diagrams would not break his bank, given the sales of the rules in the past.
And... Given that competitors with smaller budgets have released similar rules that include clarifying bullet-points, and diagrams.... All evidence points to someone in the production pipeline simply being obstinate and obtuse about the editing and language.
MB
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh! And WRG have been producing rules since around 1974.
The same author... Doing the exact same things with the rules, which make them difficult to read.
Just a quick point - the term 'Time Is Money' exists for a reason - just because playtesters are not paid does not mean that taking the time to do a proper playtest does not have a cost - in a later public release, if in no other fashion.
It can become painfully obvious when there is either no playtesting or when the playtesters are not listened to.
GW is not the only offender in this regard - TSR was guilty of it with Unearthed Arcana, WotC was guilty of it with 4e, GDW was guilty of it with Fire, Fusion, & Steel. (An otherwise great book - but they admitted that the rules for plasma weapons were utter tosh, and that playtesters had commented on it long before the book saw print.)
I have playtested a friend's system and ran into the problem first hand - he felt insulted when his system was critiqued. (His mass combat system made WHFB look like a model of clarity.)
GW is guilty of it more often than most, but they are by no means the only company that skimps on playtesting, and I have no idea of how many companies bother with double blind playtesting. (Where the people testing the system have no experience with the system - and run from the book.)
--Have a much higher budget to spend on editing, proofreading and (in theory) playtesting.
--Have been operating with essentially the same system for the last 16-odd years.
--Have a much broader fanbase and far more opportunities (even if they're not taken) for feedback on busted rules and things that need clarifying.
Then there are far fewer excuses to be made.
1. There is NO PROOFREADING. I've yet to see a single codex from 6th edition that did not have simple misspelling mistakes in words common enough that they should be recognized by any spellcheck.
2. Yeah, and as almost all aging systems do, it became more and more bloated with every addition they made. Playing a round of 40k with various unit types, terrain and buildings is as tedious as requesting a specific type of toilet paper from the administratum.
3. Erratas are nice and all, but it would generally be better if they would not have to make them several pages long for each codex in the first place.
I was an Avid Striker Player, and working with Fire Fusion & Steel to try to produce vehicles for Striker II was pretty much a waste of time.
Striker II itself was incredibly broken, as well.
GDW did a bad job of dealing with weapon penetration of Armor.
They had either a "Penetration must be higher than Armor" or they had an ineffective penetration role that was all but useless.
Their concepts were generally awesome, but their play testing tended to need more work.
MB
By the time of FF&S GDW was in a lot of financial pain.
They still should have taken the time to fix the problems that had been found - but I think that they felt it could be covered in errata. (They were wrong.)
I used FF&S with the Traveller rules - and for an RPG they worked fine - but, yeah... much as I liked Striker II, it needed another round of playtesting and error catching. (Though I did like one of the comments from one of their game designers about plasma weapons 'they may not have been as effective as grenade launchers, but at least they were a lot more expensive'. )
Mind you, fixing the plasma weapon problem also broke their terminology for 'main battle tank' - where a main battle tank could take a shot from its own primary weapon and not be penetrated....
But for the RPG... I loved the fact that it had rules for a lot of science fiction technology that wasn't in the Traveller universe, such as Wormhole and Stutterwarp Drives. (As a result of FF&S one of the races in my own SF setting had Keyhole drive tech in the equivalent of the 1940s... using vacuum tubes... big, expensive, fragile.... But they could do it.)
Until recently, I would gave said that GW at least has the financial stability to invest in proper playtesting and balance. Now... I think that they still have the money to do so, but if they keep paying out dividends instead of investing in updating product....
If GW goes bankrupt, clearly hasbro will move in and pick it up. Then, in the hub, we'll have Princess Twilight Sparkle introducing the newest member of the hasbro royalty, the Emperor of Mankind.
And, of course, the newest hit show, starring a insecure sister of battle, a brave but stupid ultramarine, and a guardsman that will back talk anyone.
Crazyterran wrote: If GW goes bankrupt, clearly hasbro will move in and pick it up. Then, in the hub, we'll have Princess Twilight Sparkle introducing the newest member of the hasbro royalty, the Emperor of Mankind.
And, of course, the newest hit show, starring a insecure sister of battle, a brave but stupid ultramarine, and a guardsman that will back talk anyone.
And the funny things is, all of that would still be miles ahead of the current gak that GW is producing.
Crazyterran wrote: If GW goes bankrupt, clearly hasbro will move in and pick it up. Then, in the hub, we'll have Princess Twilight Sparkle introducing the newest member of the hasbro royalty, the Emperor of Mankind.
And, of course, the newest hit show, starring a insecure sister of battle, a brave but stupid ultramarine, and a guardsman that will back talk anyone.
And the funny things is, all of that would still be miles ahead of the current gak that GW is producing.
Crazyterran wrote: If GW goes bankrupt, clearly hasbro will move in and pick it up. Then, in the hub, we'll have Princess Twilight Sparkle introducing the newest member of the hasbro royalty, the Emperor of Mankind.
And, of course, the newest hit show, starring a insecure sister of battle, a brave but stupid ultramarine, and a guardsman that will back talk anyone.
Crazyterran wrote: If GW goes bankrupt, clearly hasbro will move in and pick it up. Then, in the hub, we'll have Princess Twilight Sparkle introducing the newest member of the hasbro royalty, the Emperor of Mankind.
And, of course, the newest hit show, starring a insecure sister of battle, a brave but stupid ultramarine, and a guardsman that will back talk anyone.
Emperor voiced by Stephen Hawking?
Im not going to lie to you, Id watch the hell out of that.
Brother-Sergeant Maximus "Durrrr....which ones is the bad guys?"
Coporal Deadmeat "Fool, I be telling you a thousand times, the ones that are SHOOTING at us!"
The Emperor "TIME.TO.GET.MY.PURGE.ON"
Lascannon, multi-meltas and flamethrowers sprout from mobile-Golden Throne. Much multicoloured explosions and scenes of people running down corridors but never seeming to get any closer.
)
