Don't actually buy this from the webstore! Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com This purchase is for the company and all its assets, material and intellectual. You will have no bank or tax debt from the company. The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months. You will also gain interest in the studio building itself as a property. All details to be still negotiated.
I'm sorry, but how much goodwill and intangibles are they factoring into that purchase price? Because it seems like an awful lot considering the current state of business.
When someone was selling another mini business there was an observation that small business owners will usually calculate how much they need to retire and price things that way, rather than by the value of the business.
there is hardly anyone as interesting and goofy with energy like Shaun, once he's gone, we shall all enjoy the mediocre at best channels that are either sub par due to excessive talking , or beyond annoying with the amount of adds and "digital production"... pick your poisons.
I've been following him since the Badger hole and he's 100% reason I am back in the hobby
I hope nothing comes of this but it is interesting
This is pretty much the nail in the coffin for the company. If they're willing to publicly advertise on their webstore that they're selling the company, who would ever commission anything from BTP?
So $500k for some paint and tools and a brand name that everyone associates with "poor quality at golden demon prices"? Why not be "open to offers" if you're going to ask for that much? There's no way the company is worth almost $500k, so this is just another joke post. It doesn't mean anything about their finances or long-term plans.
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Absolutionis wrote: If they're willing to publicly advertise on their webstore that they're selling the company, who would ever commission anything from BTP?
Well, anyone who would commission anything from BTP is an uninformed buyer anyway, so this doesn't change anything.
nettraper wrote: there is hardly anyone as interesting and goofy with energy like Shaun, once he's gone, we shall all enjoy the mediocre at best channels that are either sub par due to excessive talking , or beyond annoying with the amount of adds and "digital production"... pick your poisons.
I've been following him since the Badger hole and he's 100% reason I am back in the hobby
I hope nothing comes of this but it is interesting
Just saying, I've watched a few of their videos. I think Shaun is a decent bloke. But man...so hard to watch him flub through a game.
What assets does he own? If he owns the property with no liens, that may account for decent chunk of the sales price. My question is what intellectual property does he own?
If it does sell, the list price is only the opening bid. It's like buying a car. Nobody pays list price for a car unless it's a really good car. Anyone interested will do their due diligence and look over his records.
Take a look at businesses for sale in your area - some of the valuation methods are interesting. I live in Florida so we have a lot of landscaping businesses. Some of the valuations on these businesses are enormous.
nettraper wrote: there is hardly anyone as interesting and goofy with energy like Shaun, once he's gone, we shall all enjoy the mediocre at best channels that are either sub par due to excessive talking , or beyond annoying with the amount of adds and "digital production"... pick your poisons.
I've been following him since the Badger hole and he's 100% reason I am back in the hobby
I hope nothing comes of this but it is interesting
Really? I actually cannot stand him. There's few 40k things I won't watch, but I can't stomach any of his videos.
Take a look at businesses for sale in your area - some of the valuation methods are interesting. I live in Florida so we have a lot of landscaping businesses. Some of the valuations on these businesses are enormous.
That'll be the same as window cleaning here; the assets are a few hundred bucks but all the value is in the customer list. If you buy a popular one you can have a full client list from day 1.
I can't see that working wuth btp due to the cult of personality and the terrible reputation.
Wait, does this course also include something on "You're always right, the customer is always wrong and therefore you have a final say in what they're getting, whether they like it or not."
The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months.
Ahahahaha! How about he just hands over the company and feths off?
I'm sure you can let him think he's gonna get to show you how everything works, but the instant everything is signed you tell him to bugger off. It after all becomes your property and business.
I'm sure employee moral would soar at that moment as you give Shawn a good tongue lashing.
So the guy with a reputation for charging horrible amounts of money for equally horrible work, and has the worst reputation in the business, is selling his company on his webstore? Yeah, this'll end well.
The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months.
Ahahahaha! How about he just hands over the company and feths off?
But how else are you going to learn the fine art of keeping a public image of being a respectable commission painting service while doing work that most people would be embarrassed to put on the table? Anyone without his impressive talents would be out of business in a month trying to run BTP.
The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months.
Ahahahaha! How about he just hands over the company and feths off?
I'm sure you can let him think he's gonna get to show you how everything works, but the instant everything is signed you tell him to bugger off. It after all becomes your property and business.
I'm sure employee moral would soar at that moment as you give Shawn a good tongue lashing.
If I win the lottery and had a decent amount of money to play with, I would consider buying this....
Just to run things with german efficiency and getting this trainwreck back on track
Talliostro wrote: If I win the lottery and had a decent amount of money to play with, I would consider buying this....
Just to run things with german efficiency and getting this trainwreck back on track
Lol. Why?
If running a miniature-painting business is truly your "dream" and you have that kinda money to burn....
- Get a website.
- Rent a well-lit office-room somewhere
- Hire a painter or two.
- Run a few "win a painted army/titan/something"-facebook competitions to get your name (and proof of your work) out there.
- Keep the other ~90% of those USD 440.000 as cash reserves for rainy days.
So when Shawn says he is dedicated 100% to this and there is nothing else he' d be rather doing he means nothing else unless that involves 500k $ as a trade off
Capamaru wrote: So when Shawn says he is dedicated 100% to this and there is nothing else he' d be rather doing he means nothing else unless that involves 500k $ as a trade off
And then, if someone is dumb enough to hand him half a million dollars for a business with a damaged reputation, he can just open a new commission painting service without all of the baggage of BTP and laugh his way to the bank.
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Sining wrote: This is a horrible way to try and sell off your business
But it's a great way to get people to talk about your business on forums.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: When someone was selling another mini business there was an observation that small business owners will usually calculate how much they need to retire and price things that way, rather than by the value of the business.
So that might explain some of the price.
It might also have something to do with this:
You will have no bank or tax debt from the company.
I wonder how much of that $440K is for paying off "bank or tax debt"?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: When someone was selling another mini business there was an observation that small business owners will usually calculate how much they need to retire and price things that way, rather than by the value of the business.
So that might explain some of the price.
It might also have something to do with this:
You will have no bank or tax debt from the company.
I wonder how much of that $440K is for paying off "bank or tax debt"?
I rather suspect the latter.
I think that it is quite possible that BTP has been in a death spiral for a while - and that Tenebre's Chaos Dwarf Problems(TM) were a symptom.
Unable to make ends meet with current output.
Increase output.
Quality Assurance falls behind.
Artists leave.
Sales Drop.
Unable to make ends meet with current output....
Interesting... this could be why BTP decided to offer more than a 10% refund to Tenebre for his badly done for the price chaos dwarf money to the point that he was willing to take down all the videos that publicized the issue. I guess they didn't want a giant festering pimple on there virtual forehead when trying to ask another owner out on a date.
If this pans out to be true, and I'm inclined to think so given that BTP has never made a joke of this scale that I know of, I think that tenebre's case was something of the straw that broke the camel's back.
There was so much overhead incurred with such a large studio plus maintaining the space for Valhalla and its other big events that I think that, even at the best of times, BTP was on a knife edge financially. There was a lot of ambition and not a lot of conservative responsibility and once something big hit, like a settlement and the previous reputation hit that the whole stack of cards fell apart.
If this pans out as true, I'll have little sympathy for Shawn. He is the self-styled leader of that organization, and avoiding these kinds of situations falls firmly in his sphere of responsibility, which he clearly failed at doing. However, I will feel bad for the staff who are now effectively stranded without much in the way of work or opportunities. For their sake, I do hope someone buys the facility and re-brands it. Under new management, I could see a large staff and tight run ship being a great thing in the commission painting market. But it needs a huge amount of control and leadership.
I thought Shawn made some incredibly stupid mistakes and handled PR terribly. He became someone that irritated me with his very shady customer service incidents, whereas I started watching his videos many years back with a great deal of favor towards him and his ambitions.
Whatever else, watching his videos has shown me a man with a wife and kids to support. He's not murdered anyone, he's made some very poor decisions and buggered about with other people's money. Whilst we all might gather to crow about the downfall of a poorly run business and a seemingly deluded man, I would remind you all there are others who will suffer as a result of the business folding and ask you to limit the gloating, for his family's sake, his employees and any potential customers who may find themselves caught up in it.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I thought Shawn made some incredibly stupid mistakes and handled PR terribly. He became someone that irritated me with his very shady customer service incidents, whereas I started watching his videos many years back with a great deal of favor towards him and his ambitions.
Whatever else, watching his videos has shown me a man with a wife and kids to support. He's not murdered anyone, he's made some very poor decisions and buggered about with other people's money. Whilst we all might gather to crow about the downfall of a poorly run business and a seemingly deluded man, I would remind you all there are others who will suffer as a result of the business folding and ask you to limit the gloating, for his family's sake, his employees and any potential customers who may find themselves caught up in it.
I'd also stress the part about the folks who have paint for painting commissions and/or sent their armies into them. *IF* the business is on shakey ground financially and that is the reason he has decided to sell but can't, that is likely a whole bunch of folks out there in the gaming community that are additionally at risk. If I were a customer of their's who didn't have a finished product literally in the mail at the time of the announcement, I'd be very worried.
curran12 wrote: However, I will feel bad for the staff who are now effectively stranded without much in the way of work or opportunities. For their sake, I do hope someone buys the facility and re-brands it. Under new management, I could see a large staff and tight run ship being a great thing in the commission painting market. But it needs a huge amount of control and leadership.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Whilst we all might gather to crow about the downfall of a poorly run business and a seemingly deluded man, I would remind you all there are others who will suffer as a result of the business folding and ask you to limit the gloating, for his family's sake, his employees and any potential customers who may find themselves caught up in it.
I, one of the staff members at BTP, can honestly say this is a nightmare for me. This company had good things going for it. But poor management and PR has greatly hurt us. All of it could have been avoided. Its one thing to watch a slow train wreck, its another to have to work in one...
The staff loved their jobs. We love making products our clients enjoy. Majority of the time we have happy clients. The problems occur when there is miscommunication between management, clients, and the staff. It could be a great company again, but there would need to be a major change in hows its managed.
I honestly dont know what I'm going to do, I dont want to flip burgers... and I have a limited skill set.
EDIT: Projects are still getting done, I'm still going in to work. The company is functioning, just poorly. I just dont know for how long...
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I thought Shawn made some incredibly stupid mistakes and handled PR terribly. He became someone that irritated me with his very shady customer service incidents, whereas I started watching his videos many years back with a great deal of favor towards him and his ambitions.
Whatever else, watching his videos has shown me a man with a wife and kids to support. He's not murdered anyone, he's made some very poor decisions and buggered about with other people's money. Whilst we all might gather to crow about the downfall of a poorly run business and a seemingly deluded man, I would remind you all there are others who will suffer as a result of the business folding and ask you to limit the gloating, for his family's sake, his employees and any potential customers who may find themselves caught up in it.
I dont, he poorly managed his company, screwed over people and bought advertising.
This is what capitalism is, poorly managed companies go down hill.
Igenstilch wrote: The problems occur when there is miscommunication between management, clients, and the staff.
I disagree about this. It isn't about miscommunication (which can happen to anyone), it's about BTP producing work that is inconsistent at best and having an official policy of "no refunds, no matter what" (complete with ridiculous scifi quote about never giving the customer their money back, in their old FAQ). That's a combination that is guaranteed to produce unhappy customers no matter how well everyone communicates. But it's how BTP has been run for years, and it's honestly amazing to me that it has taken them this long to die.
curran12 wrote: However, I will feel bad for the staff who are now effectively stranded without much in the way of work or opportunities. For their sake, I do hope someone buys the facility and re-brands it. Under new management, I could see a large staff and tight run ship being a great thing in the commission painting market. But it needs a huge amount of control and leadership.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Whilst we all might gather to crow about the downfall of a poorly run business and a seemingly deluded man, I would remind you all there are others who will suffer as a result of the business folding and ask you to limit the gloating, for his family's sake, his employees and any potential customers who may find themselves caught up in it.
I, one of the staff members at BTP, can honestly say this is a nightmare for me. This company had good things going for it. But poor management and PR has greatly hurt us. All of it could have been avoided. Its one thing to watch a slow train wreck, its another to have to work in one...
The staff loved their jobs. We love making products our clients enjoy. Majority of the time we have happy clients. The problems occur when there is miscommunication between management, clients, and the staff. It could be a great company again, but there would need to be a major change in hows its managed.
I honestly dont know what I'm going to do, I dont want to flip burgers... and I have a limited skill set.
EDIT: Projects are still getting done, I'm still going in to work. The company is functioning, just poorly. I just dont know for how long...
curran12 wrote: However, I will feel bad for the staff who are now effectively stranded without much in the way of work or opportunities. For their sake, I do hope someone buys the facility and re-brands it. Under new management, I could see a large staff and tight run ship being a great thing in the commission painting market. But it needs a huge amount of control and leadership.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Whilst we all might gather to crow about the downfall of a poorly run business and a seemingly deluded man, I would remind you all there are others who will suffer as a result of the business folding and ask you to limit the gloating, for his family's sake, his employees and any potential customers who may find themselves caught up in it.
I, one of the staff members at BTP, can honestly say this is a nightmare for me. This company had good things going for it. But poor management and PR has greatly hurt us. All of it could have been avoided. Its one thing to watch a slow train wreck, its another to have to work in one...
The staff loved their jobs. We love making products our clients enjoy. Majority of the time we have happy clients. The problems occur when there is miscommunication between management, clients, and the staff. It could be a great company again, but there would need to be a major change in hows its managed.
I honestly dont know what I'm going to do, I dont want to flip burgers... and I have a limited skill set.
EDIT: Projects are still getting done, I'm still going in to work. The company is functioning, just poorly. I just dont know for how long...
Honest question, did you think this would last forever? That this small business will be there when you are 65? I'm assuming you are young, you could still pick up a skill.
Honest question, did you think this would last forever? That this small business will be there when you are 65? I'm assuming you are young, you could still pick up a skill.
I was hoping the company would grow and expand. Start manufacturing our own products (models, conversion bits, games, etc).
And, did you think that you would be with the company until you are 65? You do realize that the average person stays with a job for less than ten years right? I dont mean to be a jerk or seem like one, im just genuinely curious
Igenstilch wrote: I was hoping the company would grow and expand. Start manufacturing our own products (models, conversion bits, games, etc).
What made you think that was a realistic hope? Were you aware of BTP's (entirely deserved) terrible reputation and how that would impact any future product ideas? And why would a painting service be a good candidate for expansion into completely unrelated products?
hmmm, strange, how can management all sudden become so poor .... there has to be a pinpoint place where it started ticking down, it seems that S. has it figured out... would hate to not see any of those people , BTP has lived on my YouTube for many MANY years.
nettraper wrote: hmmm, strange, how can management all sudden become so poor
It didn't. BTP has always been a company that does mediocre work (and sometimes shamefully bad work), charges too much money for it, and operates with a "no refunds under any circumstances" policy that makes it virtually impossible to fix the problem if BTP sells you a defective product. They've been getting by purely on marketing skill and a customer base that doesn't research reviews of painting services before committing to a purchase (at which point it's too late to back out no matter how badly BTP rips you off).
Talliostro wrote: Guys comeon, leave Igenstitch alone. He's in a terrible situation right now there's no need to attack him just because he works at BTP.
Shawn did all the mistakes here the staff isn't responsible for all the PR disasters and poor management decisions.
I am not. It just seems weird to thinKatha one company will employ you until retirement
I work now for 15 years for the same company and I hope to do this until my retirement. Maybe it's an european thing but there is nothing special in trying to achieve an employment until retirement in the same company.
Don't actually buy this from the webstore! Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com This purchase is for the company and all its assets, material and intellectual. You will have no bank or tax debt from the company. The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months. You will also gain interest in the studio building itself as a property. All details to be still negotiated.
I wonder what the basis is for the valuation, and whether there is an audited financial statement for revenue and profit.
$440k is a lot of money for a name of dubious reputation.
Talliostro wrote: I work now for 15 years for the same company and I hope to do this until my retirement. Maybe it's an european thing but there is nothing special in trying to achieve an employment until retirement in the same company.
Maybe, a lot of people don't work for the same company for their entire life anymore.
I'd say it'd be extremely incredibly rare for a commission painter to work for a company for more than a few years, it's not the sort of work that pays well or has any chance for promotion to want to make a career out of it. If you genuinely love doing it I imagine you'd do it freelance, not under someone who is taking a cut of your profit.
The expectations of staff for future career goals are hardly a subject to try and hold them to account on this thread. If this person came onto the page to say 'yes, I'm worried about my future', the idea that you should sit there and berate them for having poor employment goals is arrogant and asinine. I personally hope they can secure decent jobs elsewhere (hopefully for more money) and wish them and Gately's family well, despite his glaring idiocy in running the company into a ditch.
Am I the only one that thinks this whole thing is a case of an ego being too big? I followed the other thread, I've watched the videos, Ive read the majority of the comments/replys.
I get why BTP is being hated on. What I don't understand and can't because how could I, is what is Sean doing to correct the direction his brand is headed in? Can he get them back on a course that doesn't involve an Iceberg?
I think it's an ego trip he "firmly believes" what he's pushing.
Well, can't push the imperial truth without Space Marines. I don't think he's goth any of those around. What bothers me I guess is that despite their failings they have been around for some time now. If it were me I'd look very hard at what can I stop providing as a service. drop the top 2 or 3 levels of"painting service" why lie. Heck announce it! nothing to loose there. They really need to get back to the basics.
Just don't lie or imply BTP can do more than it really can. If he could find a partner to manage the business and I mean really manage not mess around being nice to everyone, they might get back on tract and start to make some money. I think if it were me I'd put Sean on 90 day leave with only X amount of cash to get him out of sight for a while. I wouldn't even git rid of him people like his videos. But when he came back. Videos are all he'd do. batt reps and nonsense. he's learned to youtube and that's some money coming in. The down side is he'd "get out of jail free" and have too much of a good time doing it.
Would I buy BTP? No. This is just been on my mine for a little while.
It seems very much that the problems with BTP are from the top down - often involving lack of communication both with the customers and with the painters.
He wanted product rushed out the door, to make the money, to keep the company afloat.
But at the cost of having mediocre to bad paint jobs and charging for higher quality than was actually delivered.
Really, I think that Shawn allowed the company to be swamped by the volume necessary to keep an enterprise of this scale afloat.
I feel awful for the painters that have been caught in the mess. I feel awful for the customers that had bad experiences with BTP.
Hell, I even feel bad for Shawn - but not as much. At the core, this is a mess of his own making. :(
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The expectations of staff for future career goals are hardly a subject to try and hold them to account on this thread. If this person came onto the page to say 'yes, I'm worried about my future', the idea that you should sit there and berate them for having poor employment goals is arrogant and asinine. I personally hope they can secure decent jobs elsewhere (hopefully for more money) and wish them and Gately's family well, despite his glaring idiocy in running the company into a ditch.
Sorry if my comment sounded like berating, I certainly didn't mean it that way. Even if you have a job you hate, potentially losing your source of income can be extremely stressful. I was just weighing in on the discussion of people staying in jobs for a long time. I imagine with the wages and lack of opportunity for advancement, working for a commission service would not be the sort of job people keep for a long time and if they were genuinely passionate about commission painting I'd imagine they'd be wanting to do it freelance. But that aside, losing your income regardless of what it is sucks.
I will be honest... I've never seen how a commission painting company like that survives. You're pretty much always going to have more overheads than freelance commission painters.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The expectations of staff for future career goals are hardly a subject to try and hold them to account on this thread. If this person came onto the page to say 'yes, I'm worried about my future', the idea that you should sit there and berate them for having poor employment goals is arrogant and asinine. I personally hope they can secure decent jobs elsewhere (hopefully for more money) and wish them and Gately's family well, despite his glaring idiocy in running the company into a ditch.
I hope he can find gainful employment soon. I am just curious, here I was taught you typically do not stay with a job or company for more than acyear.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The expectations of staff for future career goals are hardly a subject to try and hold them to account on this thread. If this person came onto the page to say 'yes, I'm worried about my future', the idea that you should sit there and berate them for having poor employment goals is arrogant and asinine. I personally hope they can secure decent jobs elsewhere (hopefully for more money) and wish them and Gately's family well, despite his glaring idiocy in running the company into a ditch.
I hope he can find gainful employment soon. I am just curious, here I was taught you typically do not stay with a job or company for more than acyear.
While that is generally true, its not always the case. My dad worked for the same company for 20 years, then he left for a startup and worked for them for 5 years till they went under. Then he moved on to another company where he's been for the last 4 years.
If you want any advancement or pay increases you want to remain with the same company. Constantly hopping companies doesn't reflect positively on your resume.
Talliostro wrote: Guys comeon, leave Igenstitch alone. He's in a terrible situation right now there's no need to attack him just because he works at BTP.
+1. Threatened job security sucks, even when you have enough savings that it won't be devastating and even if it's a job you don't particularly like. There's nothing wrong with hoping (not assuming) that you can keep a job you enjoy for the foreseeable future.
Talliostro wrote: Guys comeon, leave Igenstitch alone. He's in a terrible situation right now there's no need to attack him just because he works at BTP.
+1. Threatened job security sucks, even when you have enough savings that it won't be devastating and even if it's a job you don't particularly like. There's nothing wrong with hoping (not assuming) that you can keep a job you enjoy for the foreseeable future.
Let's also be honesty that he probably has nothing to do with the grievances we all have with BTP. Most people's ire is with Shawn not his employees.
To me Igenstitch's is just another person who has been hurt by Shawn's poor business sense. I wish him the best of luck, and that he might be able to get freelance work if bluetable is liquidated.
It does suck for the employees. I was in a similar situation working at a family owned print shop.
The owner ran the business catering to a couple large clients and ignoring or pushing aside smaller ones to the point we lost a lot of volume of customers.
He would ask for suggestions from everyone on how to bring in more business and any that were suggested he would shoot down and get frustrated with a "I don't do business that way" attitude.
Eventually he laid off a lot of people, me included. Went from 10 full time employees, and 1 part time to 3 Full time and 1 part time.
Ive heard he's even gotten rid of his printing presses and is now just doing copy machine jobs and anything big is outsourcing to china.
It's terrible because usually those little businesses you work in are the most rewarding, but a bad captain will sink a ship.
What's happening is Shaun's fault. Not the hired painters' fault. Let's leave these poor guys alone, who are doing what they can to keep a roof overhead. They've got enough to deal with in the case of Shaun's mismanagement, they don't need aggravation from us online.
Any BTP painters who are on here and in a state of turmoil, I wish you luck.
Shaun, I wish you professional help. Seek the assistance of one Lucy Van Pelt. She only charges a nickle. I'm sure you can find the ability to part with that much loose change.
My own belief is that Shawn did have a successful business model at some stage, because it's been around a fair while. I think what's killed it is constantly seeking the far horizons with things like the valhalla event, clothing line, business gurus and being an 'ideas man' instead of knuckling the feth down and leading by example. Too many big dreams and bs and not enough rolled up sleeves and quality control.
It's also been a rough economic time for the hobby as a whole, as well as some absolutely ridiculous antics as we saw with his inability to handle simple customer service instead of idiot grandstanding and smoke and mirrors bs via miniwargaming etc.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: My own belief is that Shawn did have a successful business model at some stage, because it's been around a fair while.
He did, it was just a business model that relied on having a pool of uninformed customers that would make the initial payment and be committed to paying the final price no matter how bad BTP's work was. That can work for a while, especially with good marketing like BTP had, but eventually their reputation was going to suffer and they'd run out of easy customers. Also, TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if a major factor is paypal extending the dispute window and making it harder for BTP to enforce their "no refunds under any circumstances" by stalling long enough that paypal can't force a refund.
wow, that paints them to be quite horrible.
I've seen first had the lack of consistency in their work.
Maybe 3 or 4 years ago Darth Burn from Paint it Black Studio was paid to repaint a large blood angels army previously painted by BTP. I was very surprised that they were using maybe 3 or 4 different shades of red. Not like blended or highlighted or anything like that but some squads were clearly one color and others another color. I can't even imagine the money spent between both projects. Just way too much.
The bit about waiting out PayPals refund time limit.
Okay, I may have missed it but what "plant assets" aside from a "share" of the building are involved here? I don't know how many "armies" have they purchased for resale that are still sitting around, but I really can't see it totaling to 400k +.
Breotan wrote: Okay, I may have missed it but what "plant assets" aside from a "share" of the building are involved here? I don't know how many "armies" have they purchased for resale that are still sitting around, but I really can't see it totaling to 400k +.
Shawn grabs about his repeat customers, so that customer list is bassicly what he's valuing so high I guess. In one video he bragged about some clients who could buy a new sports car every year thanks to how much they spend with him.
That was a few years back, so not sure how true it still is.
Personally I think the amount of ill-will and bad publicity makes that a mute point.
Breotan wrote: Okay, I may have missed it but what "plant assets" aside from a "share" of the building are involved here? I don't know how many "armies" have they purchased for resale that are still sitting around, but I really can't see it totaling to 400k +.
I am thinking that he thinks the Client list and current staff is worth the investment. They need to be painting over 10K miniatures a month to make the business viable with the staff he has. It would be cheaper to just start a new service.
Breotan wrote: Okay, I may have missed it but what "plant assets" aside from a "share" of the building are involved here? I don't know how many "armies" have they purchased for resale that are still sitting around, but I really can't see it totaling to 400k +.
I am thinking that he thinks the Client list and current staff is worth the investment. They need to be painting over 10K miniatures a month to make the business viable with the staff he has. It would be cheaper to just start a new service.
Plant assets may also include any computers, servers, and sites they have. I doubt it would be worthwhile, but plant assets are more than just the building and the miniatures.
BTP fully owns the building their in. Which is in a great location in town, and has a nice large work area. BTP also owns a decent inventory in its web store. The building alone is probably 200k.
Igenstilch wrote: BTP fully owns the building their in. Which is in a great location in town, and has a nice large work area. BTP also owns a decent inventory in its web store. The building alone is probably 200k.
Of which you only get a partial ownership for $400k according to the entry.
Laemos wrote: He keeps his fingers in the pie after he sold it to you?
Makes me think of his last idea to raise money for BTP. I wounder if he actully is just looking for someone to buy a share in the business?(Still working and being involved in the company, but someone eals coming in to inject money into the business?)
=/
As others said, you could start a bussniess like BTP for alot less then 400k, and I don't think the BTP name is worth that much. Even if the building is 200k, I don't see 200k in the rest of the business.
I would also sujest anyone seriously considering buying his company to get a accountent to go over his books. Because he dose have a past record for fudging numbers.
For the effort in auditing the books, and writing the transfer contract, it would almost certainly be cheaper and better to start a new company from scratch, posting "Painters Wanted!" on flyers outside the BTP doors.
nettraper wrote: hmmm, strange, how can management all sudden become so poor .... there has to be a pinpoint place where it started ticking down, it seems that S. has it figured out... would hate to not see any of those people , BTP has lived on my YouTube for many MANY years.
There is one. I worked with BTP for almost 4 years and took a 8 month break in 2012. When I got back at the beggining of 2013, one of the lead people, Sarah, had left to pursue a different passion. Her leaving started a downward spiral and the company as a whole just felt off. Moral started to drop, miscommunications happened more frequently and on a whole just started to fall apart. Did Sarah leaving cause the company to fall apart? No, inconsistency has been a plague for BTP since I started working there. Her departure was the start of the end though.
That's too bad. I've been over at Blue Table a time or three and they have a pretty nice building just off the Main Street. I remember talking with Shaun a few times when he was just establishing the business and he was excited to get things going and give world class quality to his clients.
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MeanGreenStompa wrote: The expectations of staff for future career goals are hardly a subject to try and hold them to account on this thread. If this person came onto the page to say 'yes, I'm worried about my future', the idea that you should sit there and berate them for having poor employment goals is arrogant and asinine. I personally hope they can secure decent jobs elsewhere (hopefully for more money) and wish them and Gately's family well, despite his glaring idiocy in running the company into a ditch.
There's a fair job market in this area where you can pick up some decent skill sets and work for quite a bit more than minimum.
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Igenstilch wrote: BTP fully owns the building their in. Which is in a great location in town, and has a nice large work area. BTP also owns a decent inventory in its web store. The building alone is probably 200k.
My guess is that it might be worth even more than that, but I'm not sure about property values in Spanish. I'm going by what a building that size and quality would bring in Provo in a similar location.
Relapse wrote: That's too bad. I've been over at Blue Table a time or three and they have a pretty nice building just off the Main Street. I remember talking with Shaun a few times when he was just establishing the business and he was excited to get things going and give world class quality to his clients.
TBH, he should have kept his overhead LOW as possible and have clients work out of house and not in the studio
Tyron wrote: If BTP go down who will replace them?
Given the quality of workmanship that Tenebre got on his army for several thousand dollars, I can confidently say there are plenty of folks who can pick up the slack and produce the same results over on ebay. Just search using the words "pro painted" or check out the handy dakka thread on the topic for referrals.
Given a certain volume of business and a strict house style this sort of 'factory' set up could probably work. Eliminating some inherent redundancies and time sinks that solo or small studios would still have to deal with.
Obviously they did quite a lot of work over the years, and presumably a lot of that was repeat custom and clients that had seen other people's completely BTP projects.
From the negative stories it seems that Shawn was really horrible at resolving customer issues rather than that BTP was incapable of producing work that people were happy with.
It's a shame in the sense that you can see how this sort of company could be a really cool, succesful and positive force in the industry.
Shawn needs to be given a window job, stuff like making and editing battle reports with painted armies they have done, in hi-def.
Get him away from management.
nettraper wrote: hmmm, strange, how can management all sudden become so poor .... there has to be a pinpoint place where it started ticking down, it seems that S. has it figured out... would hate to not see any of those people , BTP has lived on my YouTube for many MANY years.
There is one. I worked with BTP for almost 4 years and took a 8 month break in 2012. When I got back at the beggining of 2013, one of the lead people, Sarah, had left to pursue a different passion. Her leaving started a downward spiral and the company as a whole just felt off. Moral started to drop, miscommunications happened more frequently and on a whole just started to fall apart. Did Sarah leaving cause the company to fall apart? No, inconsistency has been a plague for BTP since I started working there. Her departure was the start of the end though.
figures! I knew something was off when I stopped seeing more and more of lead females, first the lady that was on majority of videos in the 2nd venue after badger hole name I can't remember but she had like many adopted kids, probably very hard working. Then Sarah... I knew something was missing....
Guess I have more nodding to do when women will tell me who helps run this world "efficiently"
The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months.
They misspelled ruin.
That legitimately made me lol.
But yeah, that is...strange. Who puts their business up for sale on their own online store? Did the tenebre thing hurt them that badly?
It feels like it's that sort of business practice that led up to posting the sale on their own store. Tenebres chaos dwarf thread certainky didn't help I'm sure.
TBH, I kinda hope Bluetable pulls through this and can get a reputation back. They just need to tighten their belt and pull up their bootstraps and focus first on painting
Give honest portrayals of the quality of the work you will receive and charge appropriate prices for it. Don't charge premium prices for a sub-par paintjob when your customers could go elsewhere and get a premium paintjob for the same or even lower prices.
Focus on churning out basic table top level work for affordable prices. That's the advantage of having a bunch of painters on staff, that you can churn out an army of decent quality reasonably quickly. And don't offer premium services if you aren't willing to provide them. Which means you are dedicating one painter to the whole project, who will maintain communication with the customer throughout the process.
And ALWAYS deal with unhappy customers. Miniature wargaming is a small enough community to where you cannot afford to have bad services.
And focus on actually running a solid, consistent business. The problem with all of these ridiculous "premium" services were that they were massive, expensive distractions dreamed up by someone who is disconnected from the day to day needs of his business and clientele.
What exactly happened with Blue Table Painting, I'm not really in the wargaming community loop but I thoughtthey were good, albeit not great, commision painters. I've seen some of their work on Miniwargaming and it always looks good.
Jaceevoke wrote: What exactly happened with Blue Table Painting, I'm not really in the wargaming community loop but I thoughtthey were good, albeit not great, commision painters. I've seen some of their work on Miniwargaming and it always looks good.
They do occasionally do ok work but thats it. The big problem with them is they claim do high quality work when in reality the best they do is probably table top quality (not table top+ or showcase just base table top). They charge too much for what they do and they have terrible customer relations. Ticking off your customers as much as possible is not a great idea when providing a service. The guy running blue tabletop painting is also... uhh he does not help with the PR and relations part.
Jaceevoke wrote: What exactly happened with Blue Table Painting, I'm not really in the wargaming community loop but I thoughtthey were good, albeit not great, commision painters. I've seen some of their work on Miniwargaming and it always looks good.
They do occasionally do ok work but thats it. The big problem with them is they claim do high quality work when in reality the best they do is probably table top quality (not table top+ or showcase just base table top). They charge too much for what they do and they have terrible customer relations. Ticking off your customers as much as possible is not a great idea when providing a service. The guy running blue tabletop painting is also... uhh he does not help with the PR and relations part.
Ah, I see. But for people that play fantasy and 40k they should be used to that by now right? (joke) Thank you very much for the clear and concise explanation
Jaceevoke wrote: What exactly happened with Blue Table Painting, I'm not really in the wargaming community loop but I thoughtthey were good, albeit not great, commision painters. I've seen some of their work on Miniwargaming and it always looks good.
They do occasionally do ok work but thats it. The big problem with them is they claim do high quality work when in reality the best they do is probably table top quality (not table top+ or showcase just base table top). They charge too much for what they do and they have terrible customer relations. Ticking off your customers as much as possible is not a great idea when providing a service. The guy running blue tabletop painting is also... uhh he does not help with the PR and relations part.
Ah, I see. But for people that play fantasy and 40k they should be used to that by now right? (joke) Thank you very much for the clear and concise explanation
Then there was the Tenebre incident, which due to an NDA is no longer explained on youtube, but we have a nice thread about it on DakkaDakka, give it a read, just bring popcorn
And it basically amounted too BTP charged a fortune for a MASSIVE job, spectaculary failed to even finsih it, then claimed Tenebre was in the wrong for reviewing it,
Basically, BTP offers acceptable table top quality paintjobs, but charges the price of a premium job and passes it off as one. And they're not guaranteed to finish the work before shipping the models to your, nor are you guaranteed to even get the paintjob you asked for. And if you send miniatures back to have them touched up, they're liable to sell your miniatures on their store claiming the customer didn't want them anymore.
The only reason they haven't had problems before is that Shawn did a very good job of marketing and basically bullying customers into not badmouthing them.
This is on top of being generally crappy to his employees as former employees have testified.
colour me happy, if they go under it will be sad for the people that work there, but better for people like me who will get a little more business, dog eat dog world
Grey Templar wrote: Basically, BTP offers acceptable table top quality paintjobs, but charges the price of a premium job and passes it off as one. And they're not guaranteed to finish the work before shipping the models to your, nor are you guaranteed to even get the paintjob you asked for. And if you send miniatures back to have them touched up, they're liable to sell your miniatures on their store claiming the customer didn't want them anymore.
The only reason they haven't had problems before is that Shawn did a very good job of marketing and basically bullying customers into not badmouthing them.
This is on top of being generally crappy to his employees as former employees have testified.
Their acceptable table top prices as you call them are around $10 for a 25mm model such as a space marine. They certainly do not pass it off as a premium paint job. BTP has always been quite open about what their levels look like through videos and by posting ALL their work for the public to see.
Of course they guarantee to finish the work before shipping the models. They could not have been operating so long if they didn't.
They will happily redo ANYTHING if you send it back. Pretty good after sales service. They will not sell your minis! Really????
Shawn bullies and is crappy to his employees? Come on, every company has had staff who dislike their boss for some reason or another. Sometimes people just don't get along. There was a supposed BTP staff member on this thread talking about poor management, but he didn't claim that Shawn was a bully or a crappy person.
Shawn bullies customers? Again, a company will not last a week if it 'bullies' customers. This business has been operating for many years. No?
This issue with BTP has really gone a bit crazy. How did it get to the point where people are wishing that a man's business fails? Maybe you would wish that kind of misfortune on someone who has really wronged you in a terrible way. Has Shawn or BTP done this to you to justify this?
Grey Templar wrote: Basically, BTP offers acceptable table top quality paintjobs, but charges the price of a premium job and passes it off as one. And they're not guaranteed to finish the work before shipping the models to your, nor are you guaranteed to even get the paintjob you asked for. And if you send miniatures back to have them touched up, they're liable to sell your miniatures on their store claiming the customer didn't want them anymore.
The only reason they haven't had problems before is that Shawn did a very good job of marketing and basically bullying customers into not badmouthing them.
This is on top of being generally crappy to his employees as former employees have testified.
Their acceptable table top prices as you call them are around $10 for a 25mm model such as a space marine. They certainly do not pass it off as a premium paint job. BTP has always been quite open about what their levels look like through videos and by posting ALL their work for the public to see.
Of course they guarantee to finish the work before shipping the models. They could not have been operating so long if they didn't.
They will happily redo ANYTHING if you send it back. Pretty good after sales service. They will not sell your minis! Really????
Shawn bullies and is crappy to his employees? Come on, every company has had staff who dislike their boss for some reason or another. Sometimes people just don't get along. There was a supposed BTP staff member on this thread talking about poor management, but he didn't claim that Shawn was a bully or a crappy person.
Shawn bullies customers? Again, a company will not last a week if it 'bullies' customers. This business has been operating for many years. No?
This issue with BTP has really gone a bit crazy. How did it get to the point where people are wishing that a man's business fails? Maybe you would wish that kind of misfortune on someone who has really wronged you in a terrible way. Has Shawn or BTP done this to you to justify this?
Hmm... you have only five posts...
Anyways, it is total customer bullying that got him to where he is. Shawn acts and commits to his business akin to a snake oil salesmen. That is why it has come to this point. I am with Grey on this.
Anyways, that is also why I can see why others wish what they wish against his company, BTP.
Not sure what only having five posts is supposed to imply? I can most certainly assure you I am not working at BTP, as I live in a completely different country.
How is he selling fraudulent goods? And if he offers to fix any errors for free, why should anyone be labeling him a fraudster?
Mostly because BTP don't work (can't work with their apparent practices, actually) to some of the standards they say they can. High resolution, clear photos are lacking, to the point of being a misrepresentation.
A secondary and contributory factor is the lack of WIP communication or evaluation of projects with the clients; this leads to differences between the product and the clients' expectations.
Edit: The 5 posts thing is merely an indicator that you've not really been 'around the block' so to speak, or that you're a sock-puppet account (we've seen those before, but not from BTP I think).
winterdyne wrote: Mostly because BTP don't work (can't work with their apparent practices, actually) to some of the standards they say they can. High resolution, clear photos are lacking, to the point of being a misrepresentation.
A secondary and contributory factor is the lack of WIP communication or evaluation of projects with the clients; this leads to differences between the product and the clients' expectations.
Edit: The 5 posts thing is merely an indicator that you've not really been 'around the block' so to speak, or that you're a sock-puppet account (we've seen those before, but not from BTP I think).
Saying I will sell you a Jaquar and giving you a Pontiac is basically what I meant by the Snake Oil line. Winterdyne's post above basically explained it in the best possible way. He also followed Ten's thread since the start.
In other words, if you claim a high standard and you give me a model that looks like garbage, when I paid for a high end model, you lied. Why don't you take a gander at the Ten thread, which ironically enough could be labelled the reason for this sale in the first place. That incident was the straw that broke the camel's back after all.
To be fair, BTP's pricing and turnaround times for the 'higher end' stuff are unrealistically low - nobody's really been paying for a higher end model - they've been sold a higher end, but were paying for reasonable tabletop and receiving just-passable to mediocre tabletop work.
The low comparative pricing alone should have been a sufficient warning sign, however, a lot of sales bluster can convince those that haven't the time to do proper research that they're going to get something better than is possible in the timeframe and budget.
An outfit like BTP (or indeed Golem over here in the UK, Den of Imagination, or any other multi-person studio) should both work on you paying a slight premium over what you might for the standard of work in order to receive service from an established, reliable business set up to operate efficiently and quickly. They both have overheads to cover to keep the business going - advertising, rent, light, heat - none of these are free, and the money has to come from somewhere. Painters need to be paid and work needs to flow to keep them employed or interested in remaining part of the cooperative.
This sort of setup doesn't scale very well - the owner/operator is never going to get rich off it - you can't accelerate the work (much) without dropping the quality, even by operating production line working with multiple people on a project, and adding multiple-person projects can actually destabilise the organisation if one critical person walks.
Problems arise when you try to scale it up, and I think this is what's really done for BTP in the long run; simply trying to do too much work for too little revenue in too short a time has cost them their better artists, and those that remain simply don't seem able to hit the higher standards.
BTP delivered a 'display' quality model to Ten with unpainted skulls dangling from it. They also did a lot of OSL all over them he didn't ask for and none off the blood effects he paid for. It was legitimately depressing since he did pay for the level just below 'Golden Demon quality'.
He was *sold* high quality on some models. That, I don't dispute.
He did NOT pay for display quality. Trust me on that, I do display quality. Cheap, it ain't. Fast, it ain't either.
I actually got sent a copy of the quote / schedule by Tenebre, and he actually got pretty much what he paid for, overall. IIRC, my quote for the army would have been around triple overall, with some models being at least 5 times what Ten paid.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The expectations of staff for future career goals are hardly a subject to try and hold them to account on this thread. If this person came onto the page to say 'yes, I'm worried about my future', the idea that you should sit there and berate them for having poor employment goals is arrogant and asinine. I personally hope they can secure decent jobs elsewhere (hopefully for more money) and wish them and Gately's family well, despite his glaring idiocy in running the company into a ditch.
I hope he can find gainful employment soon. I am just curious, here I was taught you typically do not stay with a job or company for more than acyear.
The generally accepted wisdom isn't that you change employers every X-number of years, but change jobs.
If you work for the same employer, say a small banking company, for 20 years, it's only a negative if you stayed in an entry level position the entire time. If you started as a teller, became an FSR, then a Senior FSR, then branch manager, and finally Asst. VP of Operations, nobody is going to say your career would have been better if you had 2-4 different employers over the same time.
How is he selling fraudulent goods? And if he offers to fix any errors for free, why should anyone be labeling him a fraudster?
It implies that you are a puppet or a shill, which may or may not be true. You are definitely White Knighting in error.
BTP clearly failed to deliver on any of the things that they promised: timeliness, quality, effects, scheme, etc. They took money for that. In any courtroom, that is fraud, plain and simple.
He was *sold* high quality on some models. That, I don't dispute.
He did NOT pay for display quality. Trust me on that, I do display quality. Cheap, it ain't. Fast, it ain't either.
I actually got sent a copy of the quote / schedule by Tenebre, and he actually got pretty much what he paid for, overall. IIRC, my quote for the army would have been around triple overall, with some models being at least 5 times what Ten paid.
Tenebre definitely did pay for display quality. He paid somewhere between 5 and 10 thousand for the miniatures.
BTP charges equivalent to other painters who are selling display quality paint jobs, but delivers only table top quality.
It doesn't matter how much money he paid. He had a Forge World army that he gathered together from many different places. The models alone are expensive, and he paid quite a sum for those. Cost didn't seem like it was his primary concern.
He paid for what he assumed was quality. Also, from the videos, he wasn't the most frequent patron of commission painters. He went for the company he thought was reliable and well-advertised and didn't get the quality. I'm sure that if BTP didn't exist, he would have been fine with paying more to another company for the quality that he expected. Should I be happy if a painting studio takes the low-low price of $1 per army to just literally dunk my stuff into paint? No.
All the people mentioning that the quality matches the price are missing the point. When someone commissions a project, they pay for what they assume is an advertised level of quality. BTP's nebulous levels of quality seem to change, and people get burned.
He paid around $8,000. A suitable high end tabletop finish (with me) would have run way north of $12,000 and actually pushing to display / competition quality would have run it to closer to $18,000.
You need to do one or more of the following:
Go back and read the list of models again - I stressed at the time that it was an ENORMOUS job. I seem to remember estimating it at around a year's turnaround, with at least several months of corrective measures to try and fix up from the standard supplied.
Check more reputable painters (Matt Fontaine, myself, Tommie Soule, Den of Imagination etc) for display quality rates on something like the Llamasu. BTP charged $250, which is low end of the ball park for high end tabletop. On that particular model, yes, Tenebre got burned as it wasn't even completed properly.
I would'nt even paint it to 'tabletop' for that (but my tabletop is most people's display). To actually do a competitive (as in painting competition) job on it would be closer to $750 or more. I'd be upset doing this sort of work and NOT getting a GD finalist.
Seriously up your idea of 'display quality'. By this I mean GD finalist squad sort of level.
BTP does NOT charge the equivalent for display quality.
winterdyne wrote: He paid around $8,000. A suitable high end tabletop finish (with me) would have run way north of $12,000 and actually pushing to display / competition quality would have run it to closer to $18,000.
You need to do one or more of the following:
Go back and read the list of models again - I stressed at the time that it was an ENORMOUS job. I seem to remember estimating it at around a year's turnaround, with at least several months of corrective measures to try and fix up from the standard supplied.
Check more reputable painters (Matt Fontaine, myself, Tommie Soule, Den of Imagination etc) for display quality rates on something like the Llamasu. BTP charged $250, which is low end of the ball park for high end tabletop. On that particular model, yes, Tenebre got burned as it wasn't even completed properly.
I would'nt even paint it to 'tabletop' for that (but my tabletop is most people's display). To actually do a competitive (as in painting competition) job on it would be closer to $750 or more. I'd be upset doing this sort of work and NOT getting a GD finalist.
Seriously up your idea of 'display quality'. By this I mean GD finalist squad sort of level.
BTP does NOT charge the equivalent for display quality.
What he paid was still way more than what would have been required for the quality he received, even if you believe the ridiculous assertion that he didn't actually pay an amount fitting for display quality.
Seriously, you can get display quality for the price he paid from many reputable painters. BTP didn't even deliver table top quality. They delivered the quality you'd expect from a 12 year old newbie.
You're not exactly expressing any evidence we should believe your assertions when they're clearly false. You just come across as a BTP puppet at worst and an ill-informed White Knight at best. And the prices you are charging are on the very expensive side.
He asked what it would cost to have his army painted to the same quality as another army that BTP showed, and BTP quoted $8k. That was the agreement that was broken.
Whether you would have charged $12k, $20k or something else is immaterial. Same with what those other guys charge - completely irrelevant.
He was quoted a price for a standard of quality, a price that he paid, for which he received substantially sub-par work. If you had quoted $8k, and he paid, then you would be on hook to deliver to the standard as quoted. Simple as that.
JohnHwangDD wrote: He asked what it would cost to have his army painted to the same quality as another army that BTP showed, and BTP quoted $8k. That was the agreement that was broken.
Whether you would have charged $12k, $20k or something else is immaterial. Same with what those other guys charge - completely irrelevant.
He was quoted a price for a standard of quality, a price that he paid, for which he received substantially sub-par work. If you had quoted $8k, and he paid, then you would be on hook to deliver to the standard as quoted. Simple as that.
This exactly. Exalted.
The argument does not matter and is not really relevant to this thread as this is about blue tabletop painting selling its store ect. Point is they do not deliver on what they say regardless of price. Kind of like a bait and switch. Doesn't matter what you are switched for, it is still crooked regardless of cost difference. At the end of the day its still a dirty practice to partake in.
Now about them actually selling the store, honestly if someone else were to actually take over that was ethical and competent I think the table top community would benefit from it as a whole.
In business, it's important to clearly say what you're going to do, and then follow through by actually doing what you say. If you can't do that, you're done. Simple as that.
winterdyne wrote: He paid around $8,000. A suitable high end tabletop finish (with me) would have run way north of $12,000 and actually pushing to display / competition quality would have run it to closer to $18,000.
You need to do one or more of the following:
Go back and read the list of models again - I stressed at the time that it was an ENORMOUS job. I seem to remember estimating it at around a year's turnaround, with at least several months of corrective measures to try and fix up from the standard supplied.
Check more reputable painters (Matt Fontaine, myself, Tommie Soule, Den of Imagination etc) for display quality rates on something like the Llamasu. BTP charged $250, which is low end of the ball park for high end tabletop. On that particular model, yes, Tenebre got burned as it wasn't even completed properly.
I would'nt even paint it to 'tabletop' for that (but my tabletop is most people's display). To actually do a competitive (as in painting competition) job on it would be closer to $750 or more. I'd be upset doing this sort of work and NOT getting a GD finalist.
Seriously up your idea of 'display quality'. By this I mean GD finalist squad sort of level.
BTP does NOT charge the equivalent for display quality.
So, $8K for sections of unpainted model is ok in your book? Wow, I'm suddenly glad I never pay anyone to paint my stuff.
Absolutionis wrote: It doesn't matter how much money he paid. He had a Forge World army that he gathered together from many different places. The models alone are expensive, and he paid quite a sum for those. Cost didn't seem like it was his primary concern.
He paid for what he assumed was quality. Also, from the videos, he wasn't the most frequent patron of commission painters. He went for the company he thought was reliable and well-advertised and didn't get the quality. I'm sure that if BTP didn't exist, he would have been fine with paying more to another company for the quality that he expected. Should I be happy if a painting studio takes the low-low price of $1 per army to just literally dunk my stuff into paint? No.
All the people mentioning that the quality matches the price are missing the point. When someone commissions a project, they pay for what they assume is an advertised level of quality. BTP's nebulous levels of quality seem to change, and people get burned.
This is true for most models he was SOLD a higher-than-normal tabletop finish, with some being display level (I am attempting to interpret BTP's bizarre numeric grading). It's like going to a car lot and being promised a Ferrari for the price of a Ford. Under any form of contract, you should expect the Ferrari, but you really shouldn't be surprised if it comes with the engine totally thrashed. However, art being the subjective thing it is, it's very hard to nail down what all these nebulous standards mean.
I've no idea how BTP managed to display an image of being able to achieve higher end finishes- sure they churn out a lot of cheap projects (and there's a definite niche in the market for that), but I honestly still can't figure out how after looking through the pictures available for any length of time you could think that they're currently doing higher finish work.
I just do two standards - 'tabletop' (lovely wide field that one, but not for me) and 'competition'. One I'd game with, one I damn well wouldn't. That my Tabletop costs three or four times other peoples, gets photographed at major competitions, sometimes wins a little something is beside the point. I put it on a table and play games with my chums. In my own way my standards are just as warped as BTP's because I'm driven as much by the product and process than the bottom line. However by the time I take any money from my clients, they know what they're gonna get, and I pretty much know what they want. The key to that is a lot (and I do mean a lot) of communication beyond the initial 'it'll be about $15,000 all in' that Tenebre would have gotten from me.
I'm not trying to let BTP 'off the hook' so to speak, if you're presenting a sale (of service) to achieve a certain result, be damn certain you can achieve it. And I very much do join the choir when BTP or painters of their ilk try to present as something they're not - a good example being their 'display' work. They've not been able to do any for a long, long while. Going back to the car lot analogy, it'd be like looking around after being promised that Ferrari and y'know, not seeing one - just a sale board in the corner indicating they may have sold one in the past.
In my opinion (and I think over several years of commission painting it's got a wee bit of experience behind it) I reckon $8k should have got a nice, neat, basic looking army. Nothing fancy, but good, neat work (flat colours, neatly applied, maybe a wash and drybrush or quick edge highlight here and there). He got something trying and failing to be 'arty', which for the most part looked OK at an arms length. If you squint. And have maybe had a bit to drink. It wasn't anywhere near enough to achieve a significantly better result than that on the volume of miniatures involved.
So artistic fails aside, I reckon he got close to what he paid for - IIRC most models were charged at about $6 (so way less than a half hour of time). I did actually get sent the quote by Tenebre for the sake of interest, but I can't find it right now. In any case, it's not my place to divulge its contents in detail. I'd have been more vocal about it if the work done had been simple and neat (y'know, professional) rather than some attempt at off-spec arty interpretation.
The lack of communication led to huge problems as the artist went way, way off-spec with the project, not to mention some of the most half-assed attempts at OSL I've ever had the misfortune to not be able to unsee.
I'm also fairly sure that multiple artists were involved on Tenebre's job - I mentioned earlier how this can make things go tits up really easily.
To the person saying Winterdyne is a puppet...are you serious?
I think the points people are saying are:
Ten payed for BTP's High end level and got crud, but winterdyne is saying that BTP's High end level is cheaper then His and other great painters tabletop level work,so he payed the price for what he got.
He payed cheap (relatively) and got crud, but the problem was he was promised high-end and got crud
So, $8K for sections of unpainted model is ok in your book? Wow, I'm suddenly glad I never pay anyone to paint my stuff.
Not if it's noticeable. Bare plastic is a definite no. Visible primer is a great trick if you use coloured primers:
I use army painter religiously so I know what you're talking about there.
BTW, you're the only person I've ever seen make those crappy Mantic trolls look decent. As for Ten's issue, they could have at least thrown a wash on the skulls; hell, I'm as crappy and lazy a painter as there is and I do that much with my models.
I think Ten mentioned that he paid what was asked for the best level that BTP claimed that they could supply. It was not really about the price of the project.
It was more of Ten wanted a display quality work, a specific color scheme, and was willing to pay to have that happen. He was told the project would be done to his specifications and given a time frame when it would be done. It simply did not work out for what ever reasons.
I think the majority of models were spec'd at tabletop+ sort of level (4 I think) with a few thrown in at 5 and 6. Certainly the larger centrepieces were supposed to be significantly better jobs. Instead what came out was fairly homogenous in terms of finish.
This probably isn't the thread to dig up this old discussion again, so it's probably best to leave the discussion with noting that BTP certainly didn't follow some rather basic tenets of providing a decent service.
Going back to whether they're a viable going concern, I certainly wouldn't value them at $400k. I think there's too much damage both to reputation and organisation to repair; any buyer wanting to operate more professionally would most likely have to rebuild a lot of the business from scratch.
How is he selling fraudulent goods? And if he offers to fix any errors for free, why should anyone be labeling him a fraudster?
It implies that you are a puppet or a shill, which may or may not be true. You are definitely White Knighting in error.
BTP clearly failed to deliver on any of the things that they promised: timeliness, quality, effects, scheme, etc. They took money for that. In any courtroom, that is fraud, plain and simple.
You claim to be 'Grey' on the topic, yet your convictions seem to be quite the opposite. You say I am in the pockets of BTP. You say I am definitely in error. You say BTP clearly failed. You say everything is plain and simple. I respect all of your opinions, it's all cool. But you don't seem to want to give me the same respect for. Ok, dude. OK.
How is he selling fraudulent goods? And if he offers to fix any errors for free, why should anyone be labeling him a fraudster?
It implies that you are a puppet or a shill, which may or may not be true. You are definitely White Knighting in error.
BTP clearly failed to deliver on any of the things that they promised: timeliness, quality, effects, scheme, etc. They took money for that. In any courtroom, that is fraud, plain and simple.
You claim to be 'Grey' on the topic, yet your convictions seem to be quite the opposite.
You say I am in the pockets of BTP.
You say I am definitely in error. You say BTP clearly failed. You say everything is plain and simple. I respect all of your opinions, it's all cool.
But you don't seem to want to give me the same respect for. Ok, dude. OK.
I never claimed to be neutral toward BTP. Ever since they tried to claim "dipping" as a proprietary technique, I have been hoping that BTP would go out of business, bankrupt and destitute. Regarding Blue Table Painting, I have been an Obsidian Knight for years, long before ten got ripped off by them.
You asked a question as to the implication, and I gave you a straight answer as to how I understood the intent of the other poster's post.
Based on the video that ten posted (and took down as part of his "hush money" settlement), it's pretty clear. If you disagree, that's your right; however, if BTP was in the right, ten wouldn't have sued, and BTP wouldn't have paid hush money to settle.
I apologize if you think I do not respect you - that was not my intent, and I'm sorry about that. Peace.
Apparently work has picked up at BTP. Multiple orders have come in and the staff have more hours they can work. Meaning projects are progressing, staff are getting paid, moral is improving.
Kind of off topic, but its been mentioned enough I feel I should chime in. As some one who works/worked at BTP, the whole Tenebre incident was a massive facepalm for almost every one working there, completely abnormal.Now that its resolved I feel I can comment on it. I actually assembled that project, did the conversions, etc.
-I was never informed the client didn't like my work, nor was I given the opportunity to make corrections. I want clients to be happy with my work, I would have gladly taken the time to fix it and make new conversions. If you have ever had some one judge your artistic work harshly, I assume you would feel the same way and want to make changes.
-The original painter it was given to used to be trusted to do the work Tenebre was quoted for. This painter did a terrible prime job, and let the models sit and collect dust, after several weeks, he dumped the bin off at the studio saying he didn't have time to do it. This painter was then fired.
-As far as I know, Tenebre was getting a bit impatient on the progress of the project and kept emailing and calling about progress. It had been about four weeks without an update.
-When BTP takes a project. Clients pay around 50% upfront, the rest upon completion. So Tenebres project had a large pay out upon completion. So money was a motivation for getting the project out sooner (its a business, money is always a motivation. that's not an excuse for what took place though)
-Shawn distributed the project to the new painters, with instructions to get it done quickly (these painters had produced good work, but hadn't worked there long). As soon as the painters brought the work in, Shawn glanced over it, sent pictures to the client. A few changes were made, then it was boxed and shipped.
-The project had never gone through the person in charge of quality control. He was unaware the project had even changed painters and was then shipped.
-Shawn did not do the original quote for the project. So (I believe) he was not completely informed as to the details of the email conversations for the quote. This lead to some of the strange offers Shawn made (I think he though BTP had ordered the models, instead of the client sending them in. So getting the entire army back as part of a full refund is not abnormal, *IF* we provided the models).
This whole incident was abnormal and not common. Dozens of projects are shipped every month without incident.
A client ordered project will always be worth more money then a lump sum of custom painted miniatures. As the original client is willing to pay more for the custom work for the army they want. We hate having an army returned. We would have the client like/love the work we have done and get further orders, rather then have to make a huge refund and then try to sell the army for a portion of the original quote.
So many edits... bah its early. Either way,hope this clears things up and no one burns me at the stake for it.
Igenstilch wrote: Apparently work has picked up at BTP. Multiple orders have come in and the staff have more hours they can work. Meaning projects are progressing, staff are getting paid, moral is improving.
Kind of off topic, but its been mentioned enough I feel I should chime in. As some one who works/worked at BTP, the whole Tenebre incident was a massive facepalm for almost every one working there, completely abnormal.Now that its resolved I feel I can comment on it. I actually assembled that project, did the conversions, etc.
-I was never informed the client didn't like my work, nor was I given the opportunity to make corrections. I want clients to be happy with my work, I would have gladly taken the time to fix it and make new conversions. If you have ever had some one judge your artistic work harshly, I assume you would feel the same way and want to make changes.
-The original painter it was given to used to be trusted to do the work Tenebre was quoted for. This painter did a terrible prime job, and let the models sit and collect dust, after several weeks, he dumped the bin off at the studio saying he didn't have time to do it. This painter was then fired.
-As far as I know, Tenebre was getting a bit impatient on the progress of the project and kept emailing and calling about progress. It had been about four weeks without an update.
-When BTP takes a project. Clients pay around 50% upfront, the rest upon completion. So Tenebres project had a large pay out upon completion. So money was a motivation for getting the project out sooner (its a business, money is always a motivation. that's not an excuse for what took place though)
-Shawn distributed the project to the new painters, with instructions to get it done quickly (these painters had produced good work, but hadn't worked there long). As soon as the painters brought the work in, Shawn glanced over it, sent pictures to the client. A few changes were made, then it was boxed and shipped.
-The project had never gone through the person in charge of quality control. He was unaware the project had even changed painters and was then shipped.
-Shawn did not do the original quote for the project. So (I believe) he was not completely informed as to the details of the email conversations for the quote. This lead to some of the strange offers Shawn made (I think he though BTP had ordered the models, instead of the client sending them in. So getting the entire army back as part of a full refund is not abnormal, *IF* we provided the models).
This whole incident was abnormal and not common. Dozens of projects are shipped every month without incident.
A client ordered project will always be worth more money then a lump sum of custom painted miniatures. As the original client is willing to pay more for the custom work for the army they want. We hate having an army returned. We would have the client like/love the work we have done and get further orders, rather then have to make a huge refund and then try to sell the army for a portion of the original quote.
So many edits... bah its early. Either way,hope this clears things up and no one burns me at the stake for it.
Quoted in case something changes and the above post disappears. Needless to say, I suspect most folks who saw what was actually given to Tenebre would have an issue with some things above.
Igenstilch wrote: I make edits for clarity. English was never my best subject in school :-) if I have given misinformation I will correct it in a later post
Your English is fine and the quote wasn't actually a reaction to you personally but rather because of the apparently standard BTP practice of wanting anything that doesn't praise them deleted (see Tenebre's missing video feed as an example). I don't think it is unreasonable to expect BTP to want you to erase your post if they became aware of it.
In any case, I saw around a dozen or so points where the company SHOULD have noticed the issues with the commission and stepped in to fix them as supposed professionals and one of (if not the) largest and most known companies in the field... and yet all of them were missed. You should have had contact with the buyer if he is paying for conversions to send him updates and not sending you 100% assembled models... you apparently didn't. When the painter flaked and was fired, the project manager should have taken the time to personally review the commision to make sure the painters knew exactly what was ordered (and was now LATE since those weeks were wasted). The project manager also should have informed Tenebre of the delay (but not necessarily the exact reasons) and frankly offered him a minor discount for the hassle of waiting much longer than quoted since it was not his fault. Neither happened. The painters (since you said multiple were assigned the job) should have been working together side by side so that the job was done in a cohesive manner... it wasn't. They also should have been sending updates to the customer; they didn't. Finally, they personally should have had access to the original commission details showing what Tenebre wanted (blood and gore) even if the manager dropped that ball; they didn't show that initiative either. The QA guy / Project Manager should be inspecting finalized work to make sure that the work matches what was actually ordered; he/she didn't and it wasn't a match. After that, they should be sending detailed pics to the client, which they didn't apparently. Shaun, seeing that the job was both screwed up due to the original painter flaking and was weeks/months (can't recall which) overdue, should have also stepped in on a job OF THAT SIZE AND COST to make sure it wasn't screwed up; he didn't. I guess he was too busy making videos about his business prowess and about how great the communication between customers and his staff that clearly didn't happen in that case is.
That doesn't include the multiple points where Shaun personally screwed up his customer service in the aftermath when he should have been correcting the mistakes that were 100% his company's fault.
I'm out of the loop on the tenebre stuff, as well as most of BTP's current and recent practices. So, I won't presume to comment on any of that. I'll stick to what I know.
First.. I should go on the record to say that, while I've never been an employee of BTP, I HAVE done a sort of independent contractor work for them. Shawn used to create monthly updates. I'd take it, format it, insert appropriate images from the projects he was discussing, then post those updates on various internet forums. In return, Shawn paid me in painting credit. This was probably in the area of 9 or 10 years ago.
I am happy with the work I got from BTP. It will never win awards, but it is exactly what I expected. In one case, I got more... I did a very top heavy conversion of a Defiler (added Karamazov's throne to the top of it with a Khorne character sitting in it - back when the throne was ONLY metal). With no extra charge, Shawn magnetized it so that the throne would stay on better.
When I dealt with Shawn (he's also been a Bartertown advertiser, where I am n Admin [for those who don't know]) for any reason, he's always been pleasant.
That being said...
I can't speak for 'current" Shawn, but the Shawn I knew was a great guy.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
Then, things changed.
I think it started with a legal issue.
Early on, when Shawn started taking on other painters, they signed an agreement (or maybe had a verbal one?) that they were independent contractors. This went on for a long time and BTP thrived. At some point, for whatever reason, some employees discovered that an independent contractor, apparently, had some very specific guidelines that had to be met. The way they were working for Shawn, they should have been considered employees.
My details in this next area are a bit gray, thus I am being as generic as possible.
There was, I believe, some sort of legal or private agreement made and I believe Shawn made his painters and staff employees at that time.
You know what? It's far more expensive to have employees than to have independent contractors. BTP's costs went up. To pay for the higher costs, they now have to charge higher prices.
There's no defense of his business practices here. Nor is there criticism. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know what could've been done differently. Maybe he could have done something to keep them as contractors. I don't know. Maybe not. I know that some of his staff moved on and started Brand X Painting (BXP) that floundered for a while before, I think, going under. It might've been that the other painters he had would ONLY accept being an employee and he had to give in, so as not to lose them all and be unable to complete his existing contracts. I don't know.
But that's where it sits. I think that the whole "independent contractor to employee" problem was the beginning of the end for them.
MagickalMemories wrote: I'm out of the loop on the tenebre stuff, as well as most of BTP's current and recent practices. So, I won't presume to comment on any of that. I'll stick to what I know.
First.. I should go on the record to say that, while I've never been an employee of BTP, I HAVE done a sort of independent contractor work for them. Shawn used to create monthly updates. I'd take it, format it, insert appropriate images from the projects he was discussing, then post those updates on various internet forums. In return, Shawn paid me in painting credit. This was probably in the area of 9 or 10 years ago.
I am happy with the work I got from BTP. It will never win awards, but it is exactly what I expected. In one case, I got more... I did a very top heavy conversion of a Defiler (added Karamazov's throne to the top of it with a Khorne character sitting in it - back when the throne was ONLY metal). With no extra charge, Shawn magnetized it so that the throne would stay on better.
When I dealt with Shawn (he's also been a Bartertown advertiser, where I am n Admin [for those who don't know]) for any reason, he's always been pleasant.
That being said...
I can't speak for 'current" Shawn, but the Shawn I knew was a great guy.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
Then, things changed.
I think it started with a legal issue.
Early on, when Shawn started taking on other painters, they signed an agreement (or maybe had a verbal one?) that they were independent contractors. This went on for a long time and BTP thrived. At some point, for whatever reason, some employees discovered that an independent contractor, apparently, had some very specific guidelines that had to be met. The way they were working for Shawn, they should have been considered employees.
My details in this next area are a bit gray, thus I am being as generic as possible.
There was, I believe, some sort of legal or private agreement made and I believe Shawn made his painters and staff employees at that time.
You know what? It's far more expensive to have employees than to have independent contractors. BTP's costs went up. To pay for the higher costs, they now have to charge higher prices.
There's no defense of his business practices here. Nor is there criticism. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know what could've been done differently. Maybe he could have done something to keep them as contractors. I don't know. Maybe not. I know that some of his staff moved on and started Brand X Painting (BXP) that floundered for a while before, I think, going under. It might've been that the other painters he had would ONLY accept being an employee and he had to give in, so as not to lose them all and be unable to complete his existing contracts. I don't know.
But that's where it sits. I think that the whole "independent contractor to employee" problem was the beginning of the end for them.
Eric
That's pretty interesting. I'm fairly sure Frontline Gaming uses the independent contractor model for completing their painting commissions. I guess they're doing it correctly.
Here in the uk it's often referred to as the master-slave relationship; it boils down to 'do you work for one or many masters'? If it's just one, then the argument can be made that you should be an employee. If for example I only did work for mantic, then I can't really claim self-employed status. If I work at least occasionally for other parties then all is good, and hmrc don't bother with wonderng why they're not getting their cut every pay cycle.
winterdyne wrote: Here in the uk it's often referred to as the master-slave relationship; it boils down to 'do you work for one or many masters'? If it's just one, then the argument can be made that you should be an employee. If for example I only did work for mantic, then I can't really claim self-employed status. If I work at least occasionally for other parties then all is good, and hmrc don't bother with wonderng why they're not getting their cut every pay cycle.
I am pretty sure that Frontline allows its contractors to sell their work in other venues. There was a thread a while back explaining what had happen. Some of the painters actually looked into what it was to be a independent contractor and found they needed to do work for other then BTP. So they sold some miniatures on ebay to help out BTP and apparently they got canned because Shawn considered the painters under exclusive contract with BTP. That is when the IRS got involved and the business practice of Blue Table painting changed. This is why running a multi-painter studio is a fairly risky and expensive business. The studio needs a constant flow of commission and or miniatures to sell to stay in business. The big studios seem to work in Sri Lanka but the cost of living is cheap and the work rules are not as invasive as they are in the US.
MagickalMemories wrote: I'm out of the loop on the tenebre stuff, as well as most of BTP's current and recent practices. So, I won't presume to comment on any of that. I'll stick to what I know.
First.. I should go on the record to say that, while I've never been an employee of BTP, I HAVE done a sort of independent contractor work for them. Shawn used to create monthly updates. I'd take it, format it, insert appropriate images from the projects he was discussing, then post those updates on various internet forums. In return, Shawn paid me in painting credit. This was probably in the area of 9 or 10 years ago.
I am happy with the work I got from BTP. It will never win awards, but it is exactly what I expected. In one case, I got more... I did a very top heavy conversion of a Defiler (added Karamazov's throne to the top of it with a Khorne character sitting in it - back when the throne was ONLY metal). With no extra charge, Shawn magnetized it so that the throne would stay on better.
When I dealt with Shawn (he's also been a Bartertown advertiser, where I am n Admin [for those who don't know]) for any reason, he's always been pleasant.
That being said...
I can't speak for 'current" Shawn, but the Shawn I knew was a great guy.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
Then, things changed.
I think it started with a legal issue.
Early on, when Shawn started taking on other painters, they signed an agreement (or maybe had a verbal one?) that they were independent contractors. This went on for a long time and BTP thrived. At some point, for whatever reason, some employees discovered that an independent contractor, apparently, had some very specific guidelines that had to be met. The way they were working for Shawn, they should have been considered employees.
My details in this next area are a bit gray, thus I am being as generic as possible.
There was, I believe, some sort of legal or private agreement made and I believe Shawn made his painters and staff employees at that time.
You know what? It's far more expensive to have employees than to have independent contractors. BTP's costs went up. To pay for the higher costs, they now have to charge higher prices.
There's no defense of his business practices here. Nor is there criticism. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know what could've been done differently. Maybe he could have done something to keep them as contractors. I don't know. Maybe not. I know that some of his staff moved on and started Brand X Painting (BXP) that floundered for a while before, I think, going under. It might've been that the other painters he had would ONLY accept being an employee and he had to give in, so as not to lose them all and be unable to complete his existing contracts. I don't know.
But that's where it sits. I think that the whole "independent contractor to employee" problem was the beginning of the end for them.
Eric
That's pretty interesting. I'm fairly sure Frontline Gaming uses the independent contractor model for completing their painting commissions. I guess they're doing it correctly.
Being an independent contractor means you don't have to pay a number of payroll taxes. You also have less control over the quality of work you get out of them because if you supervise them and tell them what or how to do things, that is technically an employer/employee relationship. If the IRS disagrees with you and you have to pay those taxes, expect to pay interest and penalties. Depending on the corporate structure of the business, they can end up on the individual(s) who own the business (ie sole proprietor/partnership). The base guidelines are attached in the link below.
Mchaagen wrote: Shawn talks about the BTP store 'for sale' ad at around 9:57.
Spoiler:
This is seriously messed up... I don't want to be misinterpreted as being mean-spirited but watching that makes me really worry about his emotional and psychological state of mind. I don't know how staring off blankly into the camera for thirty seconds after explaining the zen of the ebb and flow of the universe is helping out his business model. What I see is a man at the end of his rope, in serious need of help. If I was considering commissioning anything from BTP, watching that completely would have dissuaded me.
His rationale for putting his business up for sale? He thinks "abstractly" and wanted to "put it out there"... What the hell kind of businesses practice is that?
I feel like he's a good guy who is being overwhelmed by the difficulties in his life, his business probably adding quite a bit to that. I just could not take him seriously after he said: "I have a woman now". This supposed update reeks of emotinal instability and loss of touch with reality, I really hope things start going better for him and all the people over at BTP.
Shawn's biggest complaint was always that people had an elevated idea of what tabletop standard should be... one with which I agree. With the explosion of CMoN and the increasing number of GREAT painters who do stellar work as "basic" for them -Really. Some of you guys are just THAT good- people started expecting higher standards.. Excluding models that had parts of them unpainted or had details missed or painted wrong (the exceptions), I still think what BTP does as basic painting is and should be considered Tabeltop. I am not a huge fan of their higher levels, and I'll leave it at that.
There was a time when BTP produced that "tabletop" quality for REALLY reasonable prices (IMO).
The main problem was (in short) that they had many levels of quality on their site and Ten wanted high tabletop (I think it was 4 or 5 on their scale of up to 7 or 8 (and then even higher levels that were not on the scale, how does that even work?)) standard as a minimum. In the few pictures of that standard it looked like nice base-coats (on everything) with highlights and shadings (and the text regarding that level described what to expect in more detail). Also the photos were quite blurry for a painting service that has been in the business for so long, it feels like they don't want you to see the level of quality they can paint.
In the video shows of the finished work the stuff that was supposed to be the lowest quality of the commission (most basic troops at level 4) was shown with way too much black showing through to be considered deep-shading or blacklining, some quite adventurous airbrush base-coats, and a lot of the details not even painted. On top of that the higher level stuff (heroes/monsters) were not really different from the rest of the troops with a lot of stuff lacking. On top of that he wanted the army blood-splattered but got cheap airbrush gradient OSL lava bases.
It should be mentioned that correspondence was to happen and his feedback was supposed to be considered but from his review nothing really happened and the whole army was months late on top of that. I was in some way sad watching the video, he really tried to find good things about the work (and even found some units acceptable while I wouldn't have accepted any of these as the intended level) in his review while talking about his huge army that he collected over the years with most of it being FW, OOP, and conversions.
That had only to do with the idea of a elevated tabletop standard insofar as they billed him for a high quality paint job and then just didn't do the work (seeing a competent and simple base-coat would have been nice from a professional service) and they didn't even manage that (that would have been level 1 or 2 or something like that).
^^ What he said. I saw shots of the received commissions; regardless of the "unusual circumstances" surrounding this particular commission, the finished paintjobs were bad. Even if everything else had gone swimmingly, the end result was awful, not even up to tabletop standard.
I understood all that from reading this thread. I just wanted to point out, for those who might misinterpret anything I said as being somehow related to that issue, that I was trying to see if I couldn't pinpoint where BTP (for lack of a better term) "took a wrong turn."
I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
MagickalMemories wrote: I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
Really? How long ago was that? Because it's been years since BTP has offered a good product. Years ago when I first heard about BTP they had major quality issues (poor results, lazy shortcuts like not painting the bottom of vehicles, etc) and a customer service policy that was essentially "lol we have your money, sucks to be you if you don't like what you get". They've survived entirely on good marketing and an endless supply of new members of the gaming community that haven't yet heard warnings about BTP.
MagickalMemories wrote: I understood all that from reading this thread. I just wanted to point out, for those who might misinterpret anything I said as being somehow related to that issue, that I was trying to see if I couldn't pinpoint where BTP (for lack of a better term) "took a wrong turn."
I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
Eric
It changed when Shawn could not pay his painters by the Project and had to pay them by the hour. The standards for painting could be a bit better because BTP could be picky on the end results, it did not cost more money get problem corrected. More incentive for the artist to get it right the first time.
Mchaagen wrote: Shawn talks about the BTP store 'for sale' ad at around 9:57.
Spoiler:
This is seriously messed up... I don't want to be misinterpreted as being mean-spirited but watching that makes me really worry about his emotional and psychological state of mind. I don't know how staring off blankly into the camera for thirty seconds after explaining the zen of the ebb and flow of the universe is helping out his business model. What I see is a man at the end of his rope, in serious need of help. If I was considering commissioning anything from BTP, watching that completely would have dissuaded me.
His rationale for putting his business up for sale? He thinks "abstractly" and wanted to "put it out there"... What the hell kind of businesses practice is that?
I feel like he's a good guy who is being overwhelmed by the difficulties in his life, his business probably adding quite a bit to that. I just could not take him seriously after he said: "I have a woman now". This supposed update reeks of emotinal instability and loss of touch with reality, I really hope things start going better for him and all the people over at BTP.
Agreed.
Something feels really wrong with that video and the end just adds to it. I have never seen a video to advertise a store have the owner wax and wane about life and then just stare in silence. Also wasnt he already married? Did something happen? Why is he talking about a new woman when he was talking about selling his store?
The entire video made me feel really uncomfortable...
ClockworkChaos wrote: Also wasnt he already married? Did something happen? Why is he talking about a new woman when he was talking about selling his store?
BTP is based in Utah. Being married and finding a new woman in your life aren't mutually exclusive depending on exactly what part of the state you're in.
MagickalMemories wrote: I actually think there was a time when Shawn's business worked; where it was a decent product (if you understood what he was offering) at a decent price done in a decent amount of time.
Really? How long ago was that? Because it's been years since BTP has offered a good product. Years ago when I first heard about BTP they had major quality issues (poor results, lazy shortcuts like not painting the bottom of vehicles, etc) and a customer service policy that was essentially "lol we have your money, sucks to be you if you don't like what you get". They've survived entirely on good marketing and an endless supply of new members of the gaming community that haven't yet heard warnings about BTP.
Well, you need to see my previous post where I explain how things used to be for him and my opinion on "tabletop" standard. It was definitely 8 to 10 years ago, though.
Actually, it might've worked best when he was a 1 man operation before he moved to Utah (or where he is in UT, now... I forget where he was previously).!
Karnophage wrote:
It changed when Shawn could not pay his painters by the Project and had to pay them by the hour. The standards for painting could be a bit better because BTP could be picky on the end results, it did not cost more money get problem corrected. More incentive for the artist to get it right the first time.
Precisely. That's pretty much the point I was making. Thanks for elaborating. : )
ClockworkChaos wrote: Also wasnt he already married? Did something happen? Why is he talking about a new woman when he was talking about selling his store?
BTP is based in Utah. Being married and finding a new woman in your life aren't mutually exclusive depending on exactly what part of the state you're in.
Yeah, about this thread...
RULE #1 applies AT ALL TIME - including talking about people who aren't members of this site.
ClockworkChaos wrote: Also wasnt he already married? Did something happen? Why is he talking about a new woman when he was talking about selling his store?
BTP is based in Utah. Being married and finding a new woman in your life aren't mutually exclusive depending on exactly what part of the state you're in.
Oh... uh... ok. Thanks I suppose? I guess that is... yeah. Well at least now I know.