Out of curiosity, what army do you nit like and would remove? Personally, I would remove Tau. I hate their fluff, their aesthetics, everything about this army bugs me. I feel like if the Imperium really wanted to, they could easily wipe out Tau. They are the only army I really hate fighting and root for the enemy every time.
So one of the only reason you would remove the Tau is you don't like fighting them on the table top? If any army needs to be eliminated it's one of the multitude of different Space Marine Chapters because if you get rid of one there are plenty more to take their place.
Tyranids. There is no kind of list they can make that is fun to play against (either its too easy too smash their face in or their too obnoxious to have any fun against)
They are great in the fluff but their individual power level on the tabletop is out of proportion compared to the other races. A standard Guardsman is simply way too strong compared to a Tyranid, Eldar, Space Marine or Necron. It makes them downright immersionbreaking to fight, and it detracts from the grimdark of 40k to have normal guys so strong.
It's very hard to fix in the current situation, so off they go.
The same goes for Orks, although much less so, so they can stay.
I rather like the wealth of different aesthetics of the various forces of the 40K universe, they are all well-developed and unique, enriching what is a very original world of science fiction, so I don't think any of them should be gotten rid of.
Having said that, if one army HAD TO disappear so the others would stay, I would have to pick Necrons, which always felt very superimposed and removed from the lore. Their aesthetic is something I was never a fan of; terminator meets ancient Egypt, and whilst metallic, eternal undead sound fun in theory, their back-story and personality is so two-dimensional and devoid of character, they can easily fall into stasis for another few thousand years without the 40K universe really being bothered by it.
No offence, but I would remove this thread. It can only lead to people getting angry at each other. Sorry if you object to this, but I would hate for people to start yelling at each other (there was a passive aggressive remark here... It no longer exists... Forget it exists and move on please!)
dragoonmaster101 wrote: No offence, but I would remove this thread. It can only lead to people getting angry at each other. Sorry if you object to this, but I would hate for people to start yelling at each other on dakka, this isn't supposed to be a League of Legends forum .
maybe say that once the fighting begins?
Personally i dont wannt see any army removed. BUT if gw could change the damn tau chicken legs i could tolerate looking at them lol
dragoonmaster101 wrote: No offence, but I would remove this thread. It can only lead to people getting angry at each other. Sorry if you object to this, but I would hate for people to start yelling at each other on dakka, this isn't supposed to be a League of Legends forum .
I like how you try to prevent conflict by suggesting this thread will lead to trouble, only to then make a passive aggressive remark insulting one of the largest gaming communities on the internet.
Grey Knights, don't care about the rules etc., they never should have been a full army, I would rather have had a full blown inq army with all the weird that could bring, add in sisters and we are happy, GK should just remain allies with a few units.
jreilly89 wrote: Out of curiosity, what army do you nit like and would remove? Personally, I would remove Tau. I hate their fluff, their aesthetics, everything about this army bugs me. I feel like if the Imperium really wanted to, they could easily wipe out Tau. They are the only army I really hate fighting and root for the enemy every time.
If the Imperium truly wanted to, they could wipe out the Tau, match them twenty million soldiers to one if they wanted to. Countless such Xenos empires have been destroyed by the Imperium of Man. The Tau are simply one such example that are made playable such that they have a gameplay presence. The bigger issue is that the Tau simply aren't big enough to register at the highest levels of Imperial command, and the Imperium has far greater threats that it's having to marshal every resource it has to defeat, like the Tyranids and 13th Black Crusade. Ultimately though, the Tau exist to represent all those minor Xenos factions that pop up from time to time, and to represent the naive newcomer to the galaxy that has not yet realized the full horrors of the 40k universe and is only beginning to realize how truly ****ed they are.
"a passive aggressive remark insulting one of the largest gaming communities on the internet. "
So, lets see what I have done today... I'm a accidental hypocrite, I thought Khorne's number was 11 and.... I might be in debt 115 cultists. A WHOOOPDEEDOODLEDEEDOOO DAY!
Formosa wrote: Grey Knights, don't care about the rules etc., they never should have been a full army, I would rather have had a full blown inq army with all the weird that could bring, add in sisters and we are happy, GK should just remain allies with a few units.
You realize thats basically what they are. They only have a few units and are basically relegated to being allies competitively, except for the diehards who loved them for their fluff all through the years like me.
gmaleron wrote: So one of the only reason you would remove the Tau is you don't like fighting them on the table top? If any army needs to be eliminated it's one of the multitude of different Space Marine Chapters because if you get rid of one there are plenty more to take their place.
I don't like anything about them. They are basically a bunch of elitist jerks, the models are awful, the names are idiotic, and their strategies suck and remove 90% of the tactics of the game.
jreilly89 wrote: Out of curiosity, what army do you nit like and would remove? Personally, I would remove Tau. I hate their fluff, their aesthetics, everything about this army bugs me. I feel like if the Imperium really wanted to, they could easily wipe out Tau. They are the only army I really hate fighting and root for the enemy every time.
If the Imperium truly wanted to, they could wipe out the Tau, match them twenty million soldiers to one if they wanted to. Countless such Xenos empires have been destroyed by the Imperium of Man. The Tau are simply one such example that are made playable such that they have a gameplay presence. The bigger issue is that the Tau simply aren't big enough to register at the highest levels of Imperial command, and the Imperium has far greater threats that it's having to marshal every resource it has to defeat, like the Tyranids and 13th Black Crusade. Ultimately though, the Tau exist to represent all those minor Xenos factions that pop up from time to time, and to represent the naive newcomer to the galaxy that has not yet realized the full horrors of the 40k universe and is only beginning to realize how truly ****ed they are.
That almost makes me like them, but I still would rather have a bunch of Orbital Bombardments eradicate their face. The opening to 40k: Fire Warrior makes me laugh because the Black Templars slaughter all the Tau
I like all the armies, but if I had to remove armies, it would be have to be one of the SM offshoots. They really aren't different enough for them to all be combined into one army with different groups within it IMO.
They are great in the fluff but their individual power level on the tabletop is out of proportion compared to the other races. A standard Guardsman is simply way too strong compared to a Tyranid, Eldar, Space Marine or Necron. It makes them downright immersionbreaking to fight, and it detracts from the grimdark of 40k to have normal guys so strong.
It's very hard to fix in the current situation, so off they go.
The same goes for Orks, although much less so, so they can stay.
I can sympathize a bit but want to share light on how I think of it.
Every single guard model to me represents 10 little humans, I know it doesn't work on paper and such but my head canon when table toping is that they are about as powerful as 10 little guardsmen would be.
There is no need for so many space marine chapters to have their own books, get rid of Sisters of Battle, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. Grey knights is acceptable.
That almost makes me like them, but I still would rather have a bunch of Orbital Bombardments eradicate their face. The opening to 40k: Fire Warrior makes me laugh because the Black Templars slaughter all the Tau
Eh, they have their place, it just needs to be remembered that they are a small regional player existing on the fringes of space and haven't truly attracted the attention of the larger powers and exist on the edge of a knife. They aren't so bad then.
They are great in the fluff but their individual power level on the tabletop is out of proportion compared to the other races. A standard Guardsman is simply way too strong compared to a Tyranid, Eldar, Space Marine or Necron. It makes them downright immersionbreaking to fight, and it detracts from the grimdark of 40k to have normal guys so strong.
It's very hard to fix in the current situation, so off they go.
The same goes for Orks, although much less so, so they can stay.
Wait...thee WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 5+sv Ld7 guardsmen wielding S3 Rapid Fire guns isn't just too strong, but actually *immersion breaking*?
Methinks there's a gross over-estimation of the abilities of other factions if that's the case.
How weak do we then have to make Gretchin, Ripper Swarms, Fire Warriors, etc too in that case? I mean, there's *very* few things that are less capable than an Imperial Guardsmen.
Lets also not forget that the basic statline system that 40k and Fantasy use is built around the Guardsmen profile representing a basic trained human soldier, and that it's generally other races that have been gradually exaggerated (both in fluff and game mechanics) over time. Space Marines at one point were T3 with 4+ armor saves (5+ against lasguns), Orks were S3 T3 with no CC bonuses, etc. The Guardsmen profile is probably one of the most static and enduring things in the game over its nearly 28 year lifespan. If there's an immersion issue, it's likely because other things have gone *way* off the deepend and people are taking the most absurd fluff the 40k universe has to offer at face value all the time.
I'm thinking ditch ultramarine's just so there would be some variation from plain Jane blue space marines and other chapters would come out to shine and add variation to the table top
I voted none, love the variables added when you don't know what you are going up against.
Also, let's not forget that the conscripted imperial guardsmen are the basic soldiers. The basic guardsmen from platoons are the top 10% of their planets military. Every one of them I special forces level tough guys, and it takes 3 of them to equal a spacemarine!
"I don't like anything about them. They are basically a bunch of elitist jerks, the models are awful, the names are idiotic, and their strategies suck and remove 90% of the tactics of the game.
" - jreilly89
I hate em... BUUUT I would keep em just do to the fact of this one awesome piece of art... It really is actually that fun when you assault tau
gmaleron wrote: So one of the only reason you would remove the Tau is you don't like fighting them on the table top? If any army needs to be eliminated it's one of the multitude of different Space Marine Chapters because if you get rid of one there are plenty more to take their place.
I don't like anything about them. They are basically a bunch of elitist jerks, the models are awful, the names are idiotic, and their strategies suck and remove 90% of the tactics of the game.
The Tau are a bunch of Elitist jerks and the Imperium isn't? Lol sorry said could be said for them as well quite easily. And that is a complete exaggeration that they remove 90% of tactics in the game. Every army has the capability to remove certain aspects and take advantage of rules in the game not just the Tau.
I actually don't feel the need to get "rid" of any of them, but I'd love to see some of them rolled together. I figure Daemons could be included in the Chaos codex, GK in an Inquisitors codex along with Sisters, old Arbites and inquisitorial troops. Possibly even Mechanicus, though I'm not sure that would fit. Eldar and Dark Eldar in one with the Harlies. Heck I'd even "maybe" roll Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves into one so that you essentially had a Space Marine alternatives book vs the official Space Marine book for all the other codex chapters. Dunno if I'd roll guard into a book anywhere. Real tempted to say with Sisters and just leave GK as the main allies in the Inquisitor book.
I probably wouldn't actually get rid of anyone though.
Grey Templar wrote: There are many things Tyranids violate, the laws of Thermodynamics isn't one of them.
Really? I thought that the reason they don't run out of energy during their interstellar trips that take literal eons is that they have 100% effective suspended animation.
They're definitely incredibly efficient. Its possible they have 99% efficient suspended animation. Some creatures today on Earth can survive tremendous periods without food if they enter a torper, Crocodiles and Snakes being the best examples.
Its easy to see a living vessel multiple kilometers in length and width surviving for hundreds of thousands of years traveling between galaxies. Once its heading in a direction its not going to stop so it needs almost no energy other than the bare minimum to keep itself alive. It could even let portions of its body just become dead, leaving just enough alive so it could restart once it reached its destination.
Tyranids don't need to maintain a specific body form alive like a human ship would. Any living tissue can regrow anything else. Once Tyranids are done with a planet, all the bioforms it created during the invasion are themselves consumed and reabsorbed into the Hive fleet.
Remove? None. Fold all the Marines into a HH style tome with core units up front and the specialty stuff sectioned off by chapter perhaps to cut down on how many seperate Marine books we have (freeing up space to add in other factions).
I'd like to see the same treatment for the CSM too actually.
Tau - small and insignificant compared to everything else.
necrons - fluff is boring compared to others and armies are nothing but troll sauce.
Sisters of battle - because I feel they wanna but just haven't.
Tyranids: their fluff is stupid, their models are ugly, and they add nothing to the story. I wouldn't even have to hesitate before removing them.
Demons: they're literally a WHFB army on round bases, so put them back in WHFB where they belong. To make up for this a few summoned demon options will be added to the CSM codex so that they can exist in their proper role as "weird monsters summoned by 'normal' chaos armies".
Every non-C:SM loyalist marine army: none of the special snowflakes deserve their own codex. All of them go back into C:SM (as "chapter tactics" variants) where they belong.
The Tau represent the next empire to rule the galaxy, that said. I've never heard of them outside of myself once in awhile playing them as per their fluff in a long time. they're a mechanized force, suits drop down in hot zones. Fire warriors move around and keep mobile. Kroot mob it up because they actually represent the bulk of many-but not all- Tau Cadres. All the while Pathfinders scout around and get forward positions to do their spec ops thing. Tau operate like modern day forces sort of. (SORT OF) while they are always played like they're Napoleonic gun lines... Which is literally against their background. They run away when they're forced to defend positions, they would rather come back later or they have a trap set up for when you come to attack.
Although, the few novels featuring riptides do have them inning in groups of 2+ so that's always fluffy.
Knights, top of the list. Worst game design decision GW's made yet. I'd much rather give existing army lists that are actual army lists an overhaul than delete any of them.
gmaleron wrote: If any army needs to be eliminated it's one of the multitude of different Space Marine Chapters because if you get rid of one there are plenty more to take their place.
I didn't see Knights when I voted, and they would have been my choice; a single unit codex with a weapon slot, and an underpriced superheavy to boot is obscene and irritating.
I voted for Daemons however, and I'm with Peregrine on this one; it's a shoehorned in Fantasy army with bad super-random rules to try and make the models work in both systems as an army. Rolling for every upgrade, relying on random charts for "shooting" and army-wide invuln and melee dominance means playing them means you either have enough volume of fire to kill them on the charge or you don't. Fluff wise they also make no sense; you never fight a horde of daemons, they're infinite, you kill whatever it is that's allowing them to exist in the material plane. Fold them into an actual good Chaos book and the world would be a better place.
Knights don't need to be removed per se. Super-heavies and Gargantuan Creatures just need to be removed from "standard" 40K. They can be used in Apocalypse and special missions.
Space marines just because I get sick seeing them and with them gone maybe the rest of the races would get more units from the likes of forgeworld and gw.
Never was sure what the point of GK were but they kind of worked in the whole Inquisition codex. Actually so did Sisters. They either need to get rid of some or just roll them back together as one big army and add some more units with a shiny new codex. Splitting them up made them all worse and relegated to token allies units for people who really want to use them.
Knights, I feel that they have done more damage to the game than almost anything... other than ward.
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10penceman wrote: Space marines just because I get sick seeing them and with them gone maybe the rest of the races would get more units from the likes of forgeworld and gw.
the most recent releases are Necrons, Clown Eldar, and Deamons, so plenty of love going around.
gmaleron wrote: So one of the only reason you would remove the Tau is you don't like fighting them on the table top? If any army needs to be eliminated it's one of the multitude of different Space Marine Chapters because if you get rid of one there are plenty more to take their place.
I don't like anything about them. They are basically a bunch of elitist jerks, the models are awful, the names are idiotic, and their strategies suck and remove 90% of the tactics of the game.
The Tau are a bunch of Elitist jerks and the Imperium isn't? Lol sorry said could be said for them as well quite easily. And that is a complete exaggeration that they remove 90% of tactics in the game. Every army has the capability to remove certain aspects and take advantage of rules in the game not just the Tau.
Tau preach the Greater Good, but have a feudal caste system. How much more elitist can you get?
Tau can give any weapon Ignored Cover, have super Overwatch, and can jump in the Assault phase as well as Ignore Night fighting. But yeah, that's not cheap.
Vaktathi wrote: Wait...thee WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 5+sv Ld7 guardsmen wielding S3 Rapid Fire guns isn't just too strong, but actually *immersion breaking*?
Yeah. 4-5 Guardsmen will kick a Space Marine's ass in melee, which is pretty funny as I am fairly certain that never ever happens in any lore (codex or BL) outside of obvious plot armour aka Cain/Gaunt. Hell, have the SM shoot the Guardsman with his grotesquely large explosive shells and he'll just shrug it off 1/3 of the time. BS.
It's like Black Crusade, the humans nerf everything else so they won't be too weak gamewise. Which sucks in a story-driven game.
Vaktathi wrote: Methinks there's a gross over-estimation of the abilities of other factions if that's the case.
Au contraire. I'd argue it is a gross underestimation of the abilities of other factions.
Vaktathi wrote: How weak do we then have to make Gretchin, Ripper Swarms, Fire Warriors, etc too in that case? I mean, there's *very* few things that are less capable than an Imperial Guardsmen.
Ripper swarms are fine. As said, some Orks would need toning down too, though nowhere near as much. As would Tau, but again, nowhere near as much. MEQ, Daemons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and most Tyranids are good where they are.
Vaktathi wrote: Lets also not forget that the basic statline system that 40k and Fantasy use is built around the Guardsmen profile representing a basic trained human soldier, and that it's generally other races that have been gradually exaggerated (both in fluff and game mechanics) over time. Space Marines at one point were T3 with 4+ armor saves (5+ against lasguns), Orks were S3 T3 with no CC bonuses, etc. The Guardsmen profile is probably one of the most static and enduring things in the game over its nearly 28 year lifespan. If there's an immersion issue, it's likely because other things have gone *way* off the deepend and people are taking the most absurd fluff the 40k universe has to offer at face value all the time.
How the statlines came where they are is irrelevant, it's where they are now that matters. GW wants me to play a narrative game, but I can't do this as the game is unable to reflect its own lore.
I'd argue that Cain's Berzerker antics are up there with the subsonic Marines fwiw.
The scene with 6 CSM casually wiping out a Guard company is not at all out of place in the setting. 'Tis part of the grimdark.
They are great in the fluff but their individual power level on the tabletop is out of proportion compared to the other races. A standard Guardsman is simply way too strong compared to a Tyranid, Eldar, Space Marine or Necron. It makes them downright immersionbreaking to fight, and it detracts from the grimdark of 40k to have normal guys so strong.
It's very hard to fix in the current situation, so off they go.
The same goes for Orks, although much less so, so they can stay.
Ah ah, no
OT: Orks, I've yet to see anything related to them that I appreciate.
Knights: Are out of place in regular 40k. Really wished GW never introduced escalation with it's superheavy LOW's and unbound. Should have left all that to Apocalypse.
Space Marines: Not so much an outright removal so much as rolling most of the space marine codices into one.
King Pariah wrote: Knights: Are out of place in regular 40k. Really wished GW never introduced escalation with it's superheavy LOW's and unbound. Should have left all that to Apocalypse.
Space Marines: Not so much an outright removal so much as rolling most of the space marine codices into one.
Yeah! then we can roll the chaos ones together, then all the remaining imperium together, then all the xenos together and just have 3 codexes, then we can just lump xenos and imperium together and call them order, so we only have 2, then we can up the price a ton, remove large swaths of what make certain armies individual, then bring them back with around 20 "suppliments".
I hate this idea, why is it a big deal if there are many codexes? I'd rather pay 50 for the codex I need than 100 for the 1/3 of the book that I would use.
Yeah! then we can roll the chaos ones together, then all the remaining imperium together, then all the xenos together and just have 3 codexes, then we can just lump xenos and imperium together and call them order, so we only have 2, then we can up the price a ton, remove large swaths of what make certain armies individual, then bring them back with around 20 "suppliments".
Every time someone mentions a combined marine book, this tired, asinine, ridiculous, and frankly terrible argument gets rolled out.
You are aware that all the loyalist marines share the overwhelming majority of units, wargear, vehicles, and special rules, right? Hence why putting them in one book makes sense, and putting Necrons and Tyranids doesn't make any sense. This isn't a difficult concept.
Yeah! then we can roll the chaos ones together, then all the remaining imperium together, then all the xenos together and just have 3 codexes, then we can just lump xenos and imperium together and call them order, so we only have 2, then we can up the price a ton, remove large swaths of what make certain armies individual, then bring them back with around 20 "suppliments".
Every time someone mentions a combined marine book, this tired, asinine, ridiculous, and frankly terrible argument gets rolled out.
You are aware that all the loyalist marines share the overwhelming majority of units, wargear, vehicles, and special rules, right? Hence why putting them in one book makes sense, and putting Necrons and Tyranids doesn't make any sense. This isn't a difficult concept.
and I see this come up every time as well, sure they share a lot, but space wolves and dark angels just go so well in the same book as ultramarines right? yeah, with the current codex maybe blood angels would work, but there would be a loss os units that make the army a bit more individual. and if they did get shoved into one over priced book, most people would still only use a small portion and there still would be a ton of suppliments, if not more than the current "usual"
Yeah! then we can roll the chaos ones together, then all the remaining imperium together, then all the xenos together and just have 3 codexes, then we can just lump xenos and imperium together and call them order, so we only have 2, then we can up the price a ton, remove large swaths of what make certain armies individual, then bring them back with around 20 "suppliments".
Every time someone mentions a combined marine book, this tired, asinine, ridiculous, and frankly terrible argument gets rolled out.
You are aware that all the loyalist marines share the overwhelming majority of units, wargear, vehicles, and special rules, right? Hence why putting them in one book makes sense, and putting Necrons and Tyranids doesn't make any sense. This isn't a difficult concept.
and I see this come up every time as well, sure they share a lot, but space wolves and dark angels just go so well in the same book as ultramarines right? yeah, with the current codex maybe blood angels would work, but there would be a loss os units that make the army a bit more individual. and if they did get shoved into one over priced book, most people would still only use a small portion and there still would be a ton of suppliments, if not more than the current "usual"
And then people cry about a $200 codex and want it to be split into supplements In the far future, there is only complaints against GW.
I would cut all the chapter of Space Marine except the loyal chapter coming from the 20 first legion. If you want to create your own, fine, but keep them out of the fluff. That and the Knight... or any other Super Heavy for that matter.
I don’t have a problem with knights at the apoc/escalation level. I’m actually OK with them on the 40k scale, although dislike how it skews the meta. I have a problem with them as an army. If you want to take one as a LOW choice, fine. But do we need to have 3-5 on the table in a “normal” game? I don’t think so.
Overall I’ve got an issue with the one unit “codexes” You don’t need to have multiple options for every slot, but put some effort into it.
Nevelon wrote: I don’t have a problem with knights at the apoc/escalation level. I’m actually OK with them on the 40k scale, although dislike how it skews the meta. I have a problem with them as an army. If you want to take one as a LOW choice, fine. But do we need to have 3-5 on the table in a “normal” game? I don’t think so.
Overall I’ve got an issue with the one unit “codexes” You don’t need to have multiple options for every slot, but put some effort into it.
Agreed. I think a pure Knight army in anything outside of Apoc is ridiculous.
gmaleron wrote: So one of the only reason you would remove the Tau is you don't like fighting them on the table top? If any army needs to be eliminated it's one of the multitude of different Space Marine Chapters because if you get rid of one there are plenty more to take their place.
I don't like anything about them. They are basically a bunch of elitist jerks, the models are awful, the names are idiotic, and their strategies suck and remove 90% of the tactics of the game.
The Tau are a bunch of Elitist jerks and the Imperium isn't? Lol sorry said could be said for them as well quite easily. And that is a complete exaggeration that they remove 90% of tactics in the game. Every army has the capability to remove certain aspects and take advantage of rules in the game not just the Tau.
Tau preach the Greater Good, but have a feudal caste system. How much more elitist can you get?
Tau can give any weapon Ignored Cover, have super Overwatch, and can jump in the Assault phase as well as Ignore Night fighting. But yeah, that's not cheap.
How much more elitist? Let's see: Imperium kills you just for being the woring species. And even if you're the right species, they moght still kill you or at least treat you like gak if you're different, even if it's some mutation you had no control over. Unless you're a Navigator or a Space Marine. Then it's all cool.
As for Tau being cheap and breakimg the rules: Imperium has Drop Pods and a few other trucks to Deep Strike turn 1 (I think ther's even a BA formation that lets you assault after Deep Strike), an entire game phase Tau simply lack (Psychic Phase), grav guns which throw the ti-wound mechanics out of the window, ATKSNF etc.
Debateable but I agree the issue isn't the amount of armies and getting rid of any wont help the issues, except maybe a combined SM book I personally would be for.
Sad to see such a significant part of the lore shoved to the sidelines.
Oh, my hate is shared equally with Imperial armies, even more so that they all have IKs as allies, and can have multiple cheap super heavies in regular games, whereas I'm stuck with maybe one, which is almost as expensive, and nowhere near as potent.
Sad to see such a significant part of the lore shoved to the sidelines.
Oh, my hate is shared equally with Imperial armies, even more so that they all have IKs as allies, and can have multiple cheap super heavies in regular games, whereas I'm stuck with maybe one, which is almost as expensive, and nowhere near as potent.
So then the solution is to give Necrons more superheavies, not to take superheavies away from people that have them.
Or perhaps play a race that's fond of fuckhueg tanks - it's what made me pick Guard.
People are getting down on the Tau for having a caste system, but doesn't pretty much every race have something like that? Orks got it. Tyranids basically have it. It's certainly present in an unofficial way in the imperium. Eldar have forms of it. GW love them some caste systems.
jreilly89 wrote: Out of curiosity, what army do you nit like and would remove? Personally, I would remove Tau. I hate their fluff, their aesthetics, everything about this army bugs me. I feel like if the Imperium really wanted to, they could easily wipe out Tau. They are the only army I really hate fighting and root for the enemy every time.
Grey Knights. It's completely out of character for them to be fielded as an army head-to-head with another army. They also ruin the mystery of 40k. The universe of 40k is more exciting when there is the element of the unknown, which only works when there aren't knights questing through the immaterium ruining all the mystery. It's like trying to have a Batman movie or a horror movie take place in the middle of the day, Chaos just loses so much of its oomph when Grey Knights just spend their time roflstomping demons.
It's also the Dragonball Z problem, it's not enough to have Super Sayan be a thing (i.e. Space Marines) because once you have that, you have to up the stakes to Super Sayan 2, 3, 4, etc. (Grey Knights, Paladins, Draigo). It's just ridiculous fluff inflation.
toasteroven wrote: People are getting down on the Tau for having a caste system, but doesn't pretty much every race have something like that? Orks got it. Tyranids basically have it. It's certainly present in an unofficial way in the imperium. Eldar have forms of it. GW love them some caste systems.
People just hate the tau for everything. I've never really understood it
Sad to see such a significant part of the lore shoved to the sidelines.
Oh, my hate is shared equally with Imperial armies, even more so that they all have IKs as allies, and can have multiple cheap super heavies in regular games, whereas I'm stuck with maybe one, which is almost as expensive, and nowhere near as potent.
So then the solution is to give Necrons more superheavies, not to take superheavies away from people that have them.
Or perhaps play a race that's fond of fuckhueg tanks - it's what made me pick Guard.
I don't want more super heavies, I just want Knights to not be special snowflakes and actually be LOW choices.
Sad to see such a significant part of the lore shoved to the sidelines.
Oh, my hate is shared equally with Imperial armies, even more so that they all have IKs as allies, and can have multiple cheap super heavies in regular games, whereas I'm stuck with maybe one, which is almost as expensive, and nowhere near as potent.
So then the solution is to give Necrons more superheavies, not to take superheavies away from people that have them.
Or perhaps play a race that's fond of fuckhueg tanks - it's what made me pick Guard.
I don't want more super heavies, I just want Knights to not be special snowflakes and actually be LOW choices.
Oh, I see. The meta around here is okay with unbound and 30k, so the knights aren't special snowflakes anymore.
In fact, this evening I will be taking an Auxilia Stormhammer and 2 Auxilia Baneblades using the 30k Leviathan FOC, with the stormhammer as my warlord for the Legendary Destroyer trait.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Necrons, for sure. 40k didn't need another MEQ army, what with Space Undead already taken by BA Space Vampire Knights.
Sadly BA are so far away from Space Vampires, I barely think they even count that way. Back in 3rd there used to be rules where you rolled and units just ran forward unable to control themselves or their bloodlust, and you also rolled for troops lost to the rage at the beginning of the game. That was awesome because it really emphasized the Black Rage. Ruleswise though even that didn't equate to vampires really very much.
But Necrons? They're space mummies, not vampires. I like me some mummies.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Necrons, for sure. 40k didn't need another MEQ army, what with Space Undead already taken by BA Space Vampire Knights.
Sadly BA are so far away from Space Vampires, I barely think they even count that way. Back in 3rd there used to be rules where you rolled and units just ran forward unable to control themselves or their bloodlust, and you also rolled for troops lost to the rage at the beginning of the game. That was awesome because it really emphasized the Black Rage. Ruleswise though even that didn't equate to vampires really very much.
But Necrons? They're space mummies, not vampires. I like me some mummies.
I personally would not remove any armies, but I voted space marines because I find the idea of the most popular army type in the game just disappearing from the shelf amusing.
On a serious note, here's a question I want to ask everyone who would want to remove an army do to it's aesthetics: what aesthetics are you referring too? Obviously this a very subjective and by-case question, because everyone wants something different out of Warhammer, but I personally think of the 40k setting as a blending of many different Sci-fi tropes and groups (space marines are the super soldiers, Necrons are the ancient precursors, ect.), so even though I might not like every army I feel like they all have a place within 40k.
Luke_Prowler wrote: I personally would not remove any armies, but I voted space marines because I find the idea of the most popular army type in the game just disappearing from the shelf amusing.
On a serious note, here's a question I want to ask everyone who would want to remove an army do to it's aesthetics: what aesthetics are you referring too? Obviously this a very subjective and by-case question, because everyone wants something different out of Warhammer, but I personally think of the 40k setting as a blending of many different Sci-fi tropes and groups (space marines are the super soldiers, Necrons are the ancient precursors, ect.), so even though I might not like every army I feel like they all have a place within 40k.
Tau are a small fringe empire that could easily be annihilated by any of the larger empires if they so desired. Even the Necrons outnumber them. This is just one thing that bothers me. Second, they have mech suits with no AV (Dreadnoughts have AV) more firepower than the almighty Bolter, and have terrible anime fan names. Also, in the grim dark of 40k, they are perhaps the least Grim Dark and run around screaming about 40k-era Communism.
The size things makes sense, I have always wished that they had just retconned them in to have a sizable area in their control.
But the other stuff is silly IMO. First, the tau are not communist, but utilitarian. There are no castes, or ranks in communism. If you think they aren't grimdark, then you obviously haven't looked into there lore. They are just not in-your-face grimdark.
The bolter is a middling power weapon. Yes, they can kill on one hit easily, but so can almost every basic weapon in the game. The suit thins is just option, I've seen people with both. The funny thing is changing them to walker would be a buff to them. Other than the riptide, but I'd be ok with getting rid of the riptide.
Overall it sounds like someone with a personal vendetta after losing to them.
Tau are a small fringe empire that could easily be annihilated by any of the larger empires if they so desired.
Except the only two empires that crossed paths with Tau desired exactly that and failed: hive Fleet Gorgon and Damocles Gulf Crusade.
The Imperium can't crush Tau because of a simple logistic issue: sending enough men and material on the far end of Damocles Gulf (which is difficult for Warp travel to traverse) and keeping it there for the long, bloody war that would follow is something the Imperium can't afford without letting large swathes of it's territory undefended.
Tau Pulse Rifles/Carbines are exactly as strong (s5 ap5) as Volkite Chargers, the 'common' weapon of the Early Great Crusade Era Marines. Mankind went through 10 years of 'dumbing-down' since then. Fluff-wise Tau are supposed to do better.
jreilly89 wrote: Also, in the grim dark of 40k, they are perhaps the least Grim Dark and run around screaming about 40k-era Communism.
You mean the race universally enthralled to their leadership caste that has popped into existance out of nowhere and has a totally inscrutable agenda is not grimdark enough for 40k?
In general, I think diversity is good in 40k. Keeps things from getting boring.
If I had to remove something, it would probably be Tau. Just because I find the blatant attempt to suck in anime fans with no consideration for background or theme to be galling. They just aren't MISERABLE enough to fit into the 40k universe.
Give them a non-anime look & have their entire civilization hurtling helplessly towards their own obliteration... and I'm good!
Gitsplitta wrote: In general, I think diversity is good in 40k. Keeps things from getting boring.
If I had to remove something, it would probably be Tau. Just because I find the blatant attempt to suck in anime fans with no consideration for background or theme to be galling. They just aren't MISERABLE enough to fit into the 40k universe.
Give them a non-anime look & have their entire civilization hurtling helplessly towards their own obliteration... and I'm good!
What about Eldar who are just there for fantasy players who like elves? Or Space Marines who are just there for children?
All armies are based on something:
Tau=anime
SM=starship trooper dudes
Eldar=elves
Orks=orcs
Tyranids=alien
Necrons=tomb kings/terminator
Etc.
Well, the elder, orks, & dwarves were carry-overs from fantasy from the very beginning. Plus they're all miserable or psychotically violent... and the Dwarves have been "wiped out" by the tyranids. So all is properly grim-dark. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the space marines are "just there for the children". You might want to read the actual Starship Troopers novel. Nothing child-like about them.
Ad yes, GW has stolen nearly every idea it's ever had. But the rest fit into the greater theme of their universe... the Tau do not.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The size things makes sense, I have always wished that they had just retconned them in to have a sizable area in their control.
But the other stuff is silly IMO. First, the tau are not communist, but utilitarian. There are no castes, or ranks in communism. If you think they aren't grimdark, then you obviously haven't looked into there lore. They are just not in-your-face grimdark.
The bolter is a middling power weapon. Yes, they can kill on one hit easily, but so can almost every basic weapon in the game. The suit thins is just option, I've seen people with both. The funny thing is changing them to walker would be a buff to them. Other than the riptide, but I'd be ok with getting rid of the riptide.
Overall it sounds like someone with a personal vendetta after losing to them.
So? I do have a personal vendetta against them. Anyone who voted to remove an army in this thread most likely does. I explained my opinion on why I think they're not aesthetically pleasing. You're free to debate me on this, but this is my opinion, not something you can call me "wrong" on.
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SGTPozy wrote: A question to the OP; does 'knights' refer to Gey Knights or Imperial Knights?
They are great in the fluff but their individual power level on the tabletop is out of proportion compared to the other races. A standard Guardsman is simply way too strong compared to a Tyranid, Eldar, Space Marine or Necron. It makes them downright immersionbreaking to fight, and it detracts from the grimdark of 40k to have normal guys so strong.
It's very hard to fix in the current situation, so off they go.
The same goes for Orks, although much less so, so they can stay.
Imperial Guardsmen too strong? How? They cost even less then Orks. Lore-wise, a Guardsman would take on a single Ork or Termagant/Hormagaunt all day. Tabletop-wise, Tyranids and Orks are few in number and come in limited wave. The tabletop is poor representation of the fluff.
For this, I would say either any of those Space Marine clone army, either Blood Angels or Dark Angels and the Necron. Necron aren't that great. Their lore has changed so much and now they are just awakening and gak.
Vaktathi wrote: Wait...thee WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 5+sv Ld7 guardsmen wielding S3 Rapid Fire guns isn't just too strong, but actually *immersion breaking*?
Yeah. 4-5 Guardsmen will kick a Space Marine's ass in melee, which is pretty funny as I am fairly certain that never ever happens in any lore (codex or BL) outside of obvious plot armour aka Cain/Gaunt. Hell, have the SM shoot the Guardsman with his grotesquely large explosive shells and he'll just shrug it off 1/3 of the time. BS.
4-5 guardsmen trade even casualties with a Space Marine, it only looks like they're "kicking his ass" because the Space Marine only has one wound to lose, but the killing power of both groups is roughly equal (assuming neither side charges), while that group of guardsmen costs 43-80% more than that single space marine (depending on if it's 4 or 5 guardsmen).
If they're all attacking him at once, as a unit, I don't see anything wrong with that. That's called a force multiplier, and the Space Marine can only have hands, blades, and eyes in so many places. If they're attacking together, that's not terribly unrealistic, if he were simply going room to room and punching one guy to death at a time, or if he caught them by surprise (not something tabletop 40k has mechanics for), he could do that all day and kill huge numbers of them without any problems. When there's a grip of them attacking as an organized, disciplined group acting with purpose (something rarely portrayed by most fluff, trope link below) that's not at all inconceivable.
There was a video posted in a thread elsewhere, showing a world class fencer taking on 50 guys at a time, and IIRC taking out 15 or 16 before losing and lasted several minutes. Well, that worked because they could only attack in one particular manner and only strike one small spot in the most defensible part of his body and could only be engaged one at a time, and had those restrictions not been there he'd have been done in just a couple of seconds against such numbers. A Space Marine would have more vulnerable areas than just that (power-backpack, groin, neck, underarms, back of the knee, insides of the elbows, torso joint, potentially head, hands, etc) and face the same issue. A coordinated group of trained soldiers in a general melee combat against a *single* Space Marine trading casualties on an even basis isn't so outrageous under such circumstances.
Say five go in, the Space Marine puts one guy down before anyone else can connect, say he blocks or parries two very swiftly, one guy lands a blow but is completely offset by the armor, while the last guy gets a sword-bayonet into the torso-joint and unloads a dozen Lasgun bolts into the wound and puts the Space Marine down. That suddenly doesn't sound so far fetched.
Additionally, you're taking the to-wound mechanics far too literally. A Guardsmen is not simply shrugging off a direct hit to the chest 1/3rd of the time. That whole system is abstracted. The Space Marine isn't simply firing 1 bolt out to 24" or 2 shots at 12" and under, that's an abstraction. The shooter is often likely firing a burst or rapid repeated shots, the entire sequence of which is abstracted in that "BS4-66% hit rate". And, again, what a "hit" constitutes isn't necessarily a direct center-mass hit, but rather "the burst of fire lands in an area where it's possible to harm the target". A hit may be a headshot or a near miss that explodes two feet away. The combined abstract average of the potential of harm of both of those (and everything in between) is what is represented by that "33% of the time they're shrugging off the hit" you're talking about. Yeah, a headshot will kill a Guardsmen dead, often will kill a Space Marine dead too, but a shot that explodes two feet away probably won't do much to either but has a very small chance of potentially hurting, and it's that entire spectrum that's being abstracted in the whole process here.
Also, when we're talking about Bolters, these are weapons that realistically probably couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (such weapons have been tried, even produced commercially, there's a reason they don't exist anymore). They simply do not have sufficient muzzle velocity to properly stabilize, and often have a minimum effective range, and if a booster charge is used then there's no reason for them to not simply function as more traditional firearms and you're losing a huge amount of potential space that could go to a larger penetrator or warhead to an internal rocket that could be dispensed with. They also have extremely short barrels, particularly relative to the projectile size (and *especially* storm bolters) and would only further reinforce the accuracy problem. This is also a weapon that's been described as caseless, yet clearly has casings and ejections. It's a weapon that's been described as far too powerful for normal humans to wield, yet they clearly can and have had fluff, models and rules available to do so from Rogue Trader up to the current edition. We have depictions of them effortlessly cutting through Space Marine power armor, and being nigh-useless against it, and everything in between.
If you're only paying attention to the most powerful and outlandish aspects of fluff, sure, then Guardsmen might seem overpowered. If you take everything as a whole, acknowledge that there are contradictions, stunningly gigantic variances in described power & capability, and functionality issues with it, the in-game representations are absolutely fine.
Au contraire. I'd argue it is a gross underestimation of the abilities of other factions.
Given the wildly varying portrayals and huge variations in power, methinks not. In some books, immensely experienced and capable Chaos Space Marines die to simple IG Mortars. In others, a single squad Space Marines slays literally thousands of Dark Eldar in close quarters combat without a casualty. How do you reconcile these? Do we assume that a DE Warriors should simply die in immense droves against an SM in tabletop gameplay?
Lets be honest, the overwhelmingly vast majority of descriptions of fluff fights suffer heavily from both the "Conservation of Ninjutsu" syndrome, as well as being "Mooks". and associated "Mook Chivalry".
It's like Black Crusade, the humans nerf everything else so they won't be too weak gamewise. Which sucks in a story-driven game.
Again, FFG's RPG's, like most RPG's, often exaggerate elements of the setting for the sake of cool factor. The Space Marines of Black Crusade and Deathwatch are also insanely more capable than the original Space Marines released for use in Dark Heresy in 2007/2008.
Under FFG's rules, many common weapons in the 40k universe, often those that have consistently been portrayed as being capable of hurting a Space Marine, literally cannot do so unless massed in abstracted "Horde" units that artifically vastly increase their power. These are cinematic aspects and game mechanics, meant to portray a "special" and "heroic" band, with many associated tropes and belief suspensions, as opposed to an accurate reflection of the capabilities of various weapons and foes.
Ripper swarms are fine. As said, some Orks would need toning down too, though nowhere near as much. As would Tau, but again, nowhere near as much. MEQ, Daemons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and most Tyranids are good where they are.
Why are Ripper Swarms fine but Guardsmen are not? How much would you have to nerf Orks before they fit the narrative you seek? How much more pathetic can you make a Fire Warrior given their already terrible statline? Why are Eldar and Dark Eldar fine despite having similar depictions of them being slaughtered en-masse by Space Marines?
How the statlines came where they are is irrelevant, it's where they are now that matters. GW wants me to play a narrative game, but I can't do this as the game is unable to reflect its own lore.
If you're only looking at the absolute most exaggerated aspects of said lore.
I'd argue that Cain's Berzerker antics are up there with the subsonic Marines fwiw.
Subsonic marines?
The scene with 6 CSM casually wiping out a Guard company is not at all out of place in the setting. 'Tis part of the grimdark.
Sure. But why is it unthinkable for the reverse to occur as part of the same token of the grimdark? The 6 heroes/anti-heroes charge the faceless mob and are obliterated by overwhelming firepower before they can do anything and are soon forgotten as the bureaucracy and faceless ranks roll forward over everything. That's the aspect that's being forgotten here.
OP complains about "elitism" from an army in a fantasy game, but is somehow completely oblivious to their own actual elitism and is also not surprisingly a hypocrite, ignoring the "elitist" aspects of their own preferred faction(s) while complaining about others they personally don't find appealing. I also do love the idea that "Everything I don't like doesn't deserve to exist!"
What's the point of this thread, other than just to troll or alienate people? Because I personally don't see one.
Sidstyler wrote: OP complains about "elitism" from an army in a fantasy game, but is somehow completely oblivious to their own actual elitism and is also not surprisingly a hypocrite, ignoring the "elitist" aspects of their own preferred faction(s) while complaining about others they personally don't find appealing. I also do love the idea that "Everything I don't like doesn't deserve to exist!"
What's the point of this thread, other than just to troll or alienate people? Because I personally don't see one.
I don't understand why this passive aggressive comment exists. I'm legitimately curious why people don't like certain armies and who they'd want gone.
Also, everyone here has been pretty respectful, other than those calling me out for having a dislike of a fictional army. Its like my opinion, man.
All of them. I like to think that in the future everyone will have left the barbaric practice of warfare behind and learned to resolve conflicts through interpretive dance.
Brennonjw wrote:I hate this idea, why is it a big deal if there are many codexes? I'd rather pay 50 for the codex I need than 100 for the 1/3 of the book that I would use.
People still don't understand that there are more Marine codex books because people buy them. Rolling them into one book wouldn't give more time/books to other factions. There would just be less books. Space Marines don't sell more because they have more books. They have more books because they sell more.
Brennonjw wrote:I hate this idea, why is it a big deal if there are many codexes? I'd rather pay 50 for the codex I need than 100 for the 1/3 of the book that I would use.
People still don't understand that there are more Marine codex books because people buy them. Rolling them into one book wouldn't give more time/books to other factions. There would just be less books. Space Marines don't sell more because they have more books. They have more books because they sell more.
There's a lot of supposition there, and a chicken-egg problem. Are there lots of marine books because marines are popular, or are there lots of marine players because marines are the best supported, most varied, and usually cheapest army to buy/build/paint?
The same can be applied to sisters. Have they seen a lack of support because they're unpopular, or are they unpopular because their support has been abysmal and the cost to build an army of Sisters dwarfs that of even some Forgeworld IG armies?
Remember, a lot of the early stuff, where marine started getting their own books, happened because that's just what the studio guys felt like doing, long before the studio became subordinate to the marketing and sales groups.
Raxmei wrote: All of them. I like to think that in the future everyone will have left the barbaric practice of warfare behind and learned to resolve conflicts through interpretive dance.
They are great in the fluff but their individual power level on the tabletop is out of proportion compared to the other races. A standard Guardsman is simply way too strong compared to a Tyranid, Eldar, Space Marine or Necron. It makes them downright immersionbreaking to fight, and it detracts from the grimdark of 40k to have normal guys so strong.
It's very hard to fix in the current situation, so off they go.
The same goes for Orks, although much less so, so they can stay.
Because no matter how strong of an xenos/chaos space marine you are, in real space, Physics will win, especially if it involves the explosive force of a leman russ shell
I was ready to vote daemons, but it really wouldn't be that hard to try to balance them and their crazy invul saves, if geedubs really had any intention of balancing them a bit better.
Imperial knights is really just mini-Apocalypse guard, so I guess my vote is for the knights to shove off.
Raxmei wrote: All of them. I like to think that in the future everyone will have left the barbaric practice of warfare behind and learned to resolve conflicts through interpretive dance.
Dancehammer, yes yes. I approve.
"In the far future, there is only rhythm and groove."
i wanna say nids so bad because of grudges but they are a unique enough enemy that there would be a big boring gap and we would be left with chaos versus...not chaos.
orks i would just like to see go away. i don't like their aesthetic, the general attitude of ork players(in my meta/area) is just horrid and boring.
I have one or two that come to the tourneys my friend and i run and are just insufferable. they slow play, gripe about having an underpowered army(debatable, i know) and just are debbie downers.
i wanna say nids so bad because of grudges but they are a unique enough enemy that there would be a big boring gap and we would be left with chaos versus...not chaos.
orks i would just like to see go away. i don't like their aesthetic, the general attitude of ork players(in my meta/area) is just horrid and boring.
I have one or two that come to the tourneys my friend and i run and are just insufferable. they slow play, gripe about having an underpowered army(debatable, i know) and just are debbie downers.
For me, that describes Blood Angels. Almost every BA player I've met has either been surly, cheaty, or just otherwise unpleasant. I've had very few pleasant experiences against BA players, and it's not even really the fault of the army, but just the people I've happened to play against.
Moreso than any other army, it's always the BA player that's going to be a TFG in my experience.
Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
I think it's more an issue that multiples are a problem. One for nearly 400pts is pretty ok, most armies can deal with that. When you've got to deal with 5, or worse yet, an Adamantine Lance where they get to reroll saves...just because, Gerantius with this 3++, and another one rolling around for kicks in a 2k game, that gets truly ridiculous.
iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
I think it's more an issue that multiples are a problem. One for nearly 400pts is pretty ok, most armies can deal with that. When you've got to deal with 5, or worse yet, an Adamantine Lance where they get to reroll saves...just because, Gerantius with this 3++, and another one rolling around for kicks in a 2k game, that gets truly ridiculous.
Exactly. Kill the Codex and put a Knight in an Imperial Armour book.
iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
I think it's more an issue that multiples are a problem. One for nearly 400pts is pretty ok, most armies can deal with that. When you've got to deal with 5, or worse yet, an Adamantine Lance where they get to reroll saves...just because, Gerantius with this 3++, and another one rolling around for kicks in a 2k game, that gets truly ridiculous.
Exactly. Kill the Codex and put a Knight in an Imperial Armour book.
putting it in an over priced forge world book is the solution because?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Necrons, for sure. 40k didn't need another MEQ army, what with Space Undead already taken by BA Space Vampire Knights.
So then get rid of Eldar. Elves are supposed to be fragile, yet 3+ saves galore.
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iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
Spoken with truth. Though I will admit one of them isn't a big deal, it's the fact that it's yet another toy only for imperial armies, and it doesn't take up a LOW slot, it gets to be its own special thing, which is stupid.
Knights, simply because all their units are superheavies when all other factions wield mostly humanoid-sized units. Not really sure what niche they're supposed to fill either.
I'd replace them with the Adeptus Mechanicus faction.
Also Sisters of Battle. Sorry, Sisters of Silence were better!
One of the things I like about 40k, is all the choices you have.
Sure, some armies are just unnecessary splinters of other armies, but if (somehow... If you're rich)you can look past that, you can build almost any army you want. Beats facing the same stale forces, when suddenly the Nids are getting artillery support from tau! Giant robots are charging legions of demons!
As much as i love me my blood angels, i'd have to say ditch space marines entirely. They seem to have done the most harm to the game (developers/company not withstanding).
The only army I feel really makes the game poorer are Imperial Knights. Everything else comes down to personal taste, but an all Knight army just isn't fun to play against. Either you build a normal list and most of your army is useless, or you build a hard counter list and have a long, boring fight, surrounding the Knights with high strength, melta, etc and smacking past their stupid shields to whittle the hull points away. Yeah, you can DO it, but who wants to? It's frustrating and unfun. I would greatly prefer it if Knights were folded into other armies and limited to one per non-Apoc game.
iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
If knights are pay to win....why are they not winning?
At the last major tournament (LVO) there was no multiple knights list in top 8 and has Adamantine Lance ever won a big tournament?
iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
If knights are pay to win....why are they not winning?
At the last major tournament (LVO) there was no multiple knights list in top 8 and has Adamantine Lance ever won a big tournament?
Given how relatively short a lifespan it's had thus far and how few major large events there have been, it's hard to judge the placement of Adamantine Lance.
It does however simply steamroll a very large number of armies who have no real effective response. Even if they're not top placing, it's likely because there's a handful of hardcounters that they'll come across once or twice and steamroll their other opponents.
Brennonjw wrote:I hate this idea, why is it a big deal if there are many codexes? I'd rather pay 50 for the codex I need than 100 for the 1/3 of the book that I would use.
People still don't understand that there are more Marine codex books because people buy them. Rolling them into one book wouldn't give more time/books to other factions. There would just be less books. Space Marines don't sell more because they have more books. They have more books because they sell more.
There's a lot of supposition there, and a chicken-egg problem. Are there lots of marine books because marines are popular, or are there lots of marine players because marines are the best supported, most varied, and usually cheapest army to buy/build/paint?
Not really. The Codex books didn't exist until 2nd Edition. By then it was probably quite obvious that the Space Marines were their top seller. It isn't like they were released in a vacuum and then Games Workshop made an arbitrary decision. And even then, they only had three Codex books. Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and Blangel/Dangels. But over time, we saw more and more Space Marine lists (Sallies and BT in C:Arm, for example)). And the only thing that would have influence that was that Games Workshop sold more and more Space Marines. Remember. There were 7 full ranges of Imperial Guard at one point (Cad/Cat/Tal/Mord/Val/Vos/StL/Pra). That shrunk to two. Which tells you that the Space Marines sold enough models for more models, but the Imperial Guard didn't sell enough. Even Priestley admitted recently that it was always about money, even if back in the day it was more about keeping the lights on than profit margins. The only thing that has fundamentally changed about the GW business model is that it shifted from a top-line business to a bottom-line business. Which makes the recent flurry of new releases somewhat curious because it's a change of behavior.
The same can be applied to sisters. Have they seen a lack of support because they're unpopular, or are they unpopular because their support has been abysmal and the cost to build an army of Sisters dwarfs that of even some Forgeworld IG armies?
We know the answer to this too. When the Sisters were released, every army was metal, and they didn't sell. When they were rereleased, most armies were still principally metal, and they didn't sell. Necrons have an identical product history to the Sisters. Released in a small range, all metal. And yet one army became a major with new kits and regular hardcopy updates, and the other did not. And it is almost impossible that this choice was arbitrary.
What the Sisters have been for the last ten years are a dog product kept around, but not expected to sell. In fact, the current price of Sisters models seems to be set intentionally to not sell them, because selling them means having to make more of them. The price they are set at now ensures a healthy margin to make keeping the metal casting for them profitable in the case somebody insists on buying them. In the meantime, because they are offered for sale, the IP protection issues are minimized. And releasing an Ebook-only Codex is low overhead because it doesn't have to be printed, shipped or stocked. It's an easy way for them to hold on to the product line while they decide if they ever want to do something with it.
There were quite a few plastic kits by the time 2E came around, at least for some armies. Sisters also only had their 2E codex for an extremely short time period in 1997 before 3E came out in 1998, where they didn't get an actual codex again until just before 4th edition in 2004.
As for Space Marines, yes, they had always been popular, but again, the core studio had lots of internal decision on what they wanted to make until the late 90's. The proliferation of SM books along the lines that occurred was because that's what the studio wanted to do, and in turned spurred further popularity.
I can't think of a better example of that principle than Dark Eldar. Practically dead by 2006, almost entirely unavailable just a short time later, they made a huge comeback in 2010 when they got a real, functioning, up to date codex and great looking models. The army went from one that many never saw in years in playing, to a regular appearance everywhere.
iGuy91 wrote: Knights....Its just pay to win. We all know it. The damn things are way too good for their points, and impossible to beat unless you have a list tailored to beat them.There is no reason to be bringing these obnoxious wraithknights and knights in non-apoc games.
Give the the axe
If knights are pay to win....why are they not winning?
At the last major tournament (LVO) there was no multiple knights list in top 8 and has Adamantine Lance ever won a big tournament?
Given how relatively short a lifespan it's had thus far and how few major large events there have been, it's hard to judge the placement of Adamantine Lance.
It does however simply steamroll a very large number of armies who have no real effective response. Even if they're not top placing, it's likely because there's a handful of hardcounters that they'll come across once or twice and steamroll their other opponents.
Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment has been out for less time and seems to be much more prevalent among good performing tournament armies.
IMO it's mainly because spending 1200-ish points on 3 units that need to stand next to each other is a relative poor approach in the tournament mission format vs. MSU armies that seem tio be very popular at this point.
I don't disagree with the fact that knights are good (but many other armies are good), nor with the fact that they are unfun to play against (but that's a purely subjective issue, I for example don't mind playing knights, but I don't enjoy playing against psyker heavy or horde armies).
What I disagree with is knights being pay-to-win.
In the strictest sense, it's nonsensical to talk about pay to win in 49k, because nothing is free.
In the wider sense sense, which I would interpret as 'extremely expensive but very powerful unit, which therefore chreates creates an advantage to those who can afford it', I don't think a knight is out of line with the rest of 40k (it's a bit on thevcheap side as far as price-to-points ratios go IMO). A knight is 85£ for 370-375 points. A Riptide is 50£ for 200 points. A Dreadnought is 28£ for 125 points etc. For simething that might resembke pay to win, look at Broadsides. 30£ for a very good 65 points unit.
Tau. They simply don't make sense as a faction as they're just so utterly insignificant compared to every other faction. It's like Iran being included in as a nation in a WWIII game featuring America, Russia, the EU, and China. The only reason why the Tau survive is because they're effectively babied as a faction, receiving watered down Tyranid Fleets that still pose a massive threat to them due to being tiny.
Either Tau need to be increased in size as a faction so they make sense for even having a Codex, or they should just be removed entirely. Because given how pathetically small their Empire is, there's no excuse as to why we can't have Codex Rak'Gol, Codex Hrud, etc.
IMO Tau need to be turned into Space Persia, holding a very substantial empire in the Galactic East near the edge of the Astrnomicon so they actually deserve to be represented on the TT in the first place.
They could just progressively move the storyline of their Sphere expansions forward since the Tau are supposed to be expanding exponentially. Instead of retconning the fluff, they could have them expand and assimilate much more aggressively (both in Imperial space and elsewhere) so that they become a proper threat. Basically expand by one sphere or more each new codex.
I agree that the Tau are too small on their faction to make sense. Although, if the expanded them along the outer rims of the galaxy and made their empire bigger as a fringe state that might not be awful.
That would work quite well. And, you have to remember that the area of space they are situated in is supposed to be particularly dense, and the tau have perfected terraforming, so that help them as well.
Vaktathi wrote: 4-5 guardsmen trade even casualties with a Space Marine, it only looks like they're "kicking his ass" because the Space Marine only has one wound to lose, but the killing power of both groups is roughly equal (assuming neither side charges), while that group of guardsmen costs 43-80% more than that single space marine (depending on if it's 4 or 5 guardsmen).
Points cost is an abstract game mechanic that has no relevance to my immersion.
Vaktathi wrote: If they're all attacking him at once, as a unit, I don't see anything wrong with that. That's called a force multiplier, and the Space Marine can only have hands, blades, and eyes in so many places. If they're attacking together, that's not terribly unrealistic, if he were simply going room to room and punching one guy to death at a time, or if he caught them by surprise (not something tabletop 40k has mechanics for), he could do that all day and kill huge numbers of them without any problems. When there's a grip of them attacking as an organized, disciplined group acting with purpose (something rarely portrayed by most fluff, trope link below) that's not at all inconceivable.
It is inconcievable, because it is like five chihauhas attacking an elephant. They are five, sure, but it doesn't matter. They could be fifteen and it still would not matter. They can gang up as much as it like and it wouldn't help them anything. The size difference is not as large, but the Marine has armour and speed that more than makes up for it.
Vaktathi wrote: There was a video posted in a thread elsewhere, showing a world class fencer taking on 50 guys at a time, and IIRC taking out 15 or 16 before losing and lasted several minutes. Well, that worked because they could only attack in one particular manner and only strike one small spot in the most defensible part of his body and could only be engaged one at a time, and had those restrictions not been there he'd have been done in just a couple of seconds against such numbers. A Space Marine would have more vulnerable areas than just that (power-backpack, groin, neck, underarms, back of the knee, insides of the elbows, torso joint, potentially head, hands, etc) and face the same issue. A coordinated group of trained soldiers in a general melee combat against a *single* Space Marine trading casualties on an even basis isn't so outrageous under such circumstances.
Now imagine if that fencer was huge, fast enough to cause a whole new type of psychological trauma in people who witness him fight, was strong enough to lift a car AND wore armour that a simple knife really isn't going to do anything against. You have to remember that the Guardsmen not giving him any space to dodge is irrelevant for him - he can do so anyway, and if they try to stop him they will be crushed. In fact, they'll even get in each other's way!
Vaktathi wrote: Say five go in, the Space Marine puts one guy down before anyone else can connect, say he blocks or parries two very swiftly, one guy lands a blow but is completely offset by the armor, while the last guy gets a sword-bayonet into the torso-joint and unloads a dozen Lasgun bolts into the wound and puts the Space Marine down. That suddenly doesn't sound so far fetched.
More like this: Fifteen go in, the Marine downs three with a right hook before anyone else can react, downing another three with a left hook (one of them blocks it but is nowhere near strong enough to actually prevent it from landing or even affecting its trajectory). The rest attack, some meaninglessly hitting armour plates, one getting a stroke of luck and hitting the soft armour with his bayonet. It is unlikely to go all the way through (even 'soft' armour is not very soft) and even if it does, the wound is going to clot pretty much instantly and heal decently quickly as well. Say that fate gives him another clap on the shoulder and he gets to fire as well, his shot hitting the soft armour and melting a bit of it, dealing damage that is, ultimately, mostly superficial. Within ten seconds, he and the rest are dead too.
Vaktathi wrote: Additionally, you're taking the to-wound mechanics far too literally. A Guardsmen is not simply shrugging off a direct hit to the chest 1/3rd of the time. That whole system is abstracted. The Space Marine isn't simply firing 1 bolt out to 24" or 2 shots at 12" and under, that's an abstraction. The shooter is often likely firing a burst or rapid repeated shots, the entire sequence of which is abstracted in that "BS4-66% hit rate". And, again, what a "hit" constitutes isn't necessarily a direct center-mass hit, but rather "the burst of fire lands in an area where it's possible to harm the target". A hit may be a headshot or a near miss that explodes two feet away. The combined abstract average of the potential of harm of both of those (and everything in between) is what is represented by that "33% of the time they're shrugging off the hit" you're talking about. Yeah, a headshot will kill a Guardsmen dead, often will kill a Space Marine dead too, but a shot that explodes two feet away probably won't do much to either but has a very small chance of potentially hurting, and it's that entire spectrum that's being abstracted in the whole process here.
So a Space Marine has not only a 66% chance to hit, but a 66% chance to hit somewhat close to what he was firing at, with one shot from a burst? That is ridiculous.
Vaktathi wrote: Also, when we're talking about Bolters, these are weapons that realistically probably couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (such weapons have been tried, even produced commercially, there's a reason they don't exist anymore). They simply do not have sufficient muzzle velocity to properly stabilize, and often have a minimum effective range, and if a booster charge is used then there's no reason for them to not simply function as more traditional firearms and you're losing a huge amount of potential space that could go to a larger penetrator or warhead to an internal rocket that could be dispensed with. They also have extremely short barrels, particularly relative to the projectile size (and *especially* storm bolters) and would only further reinforce the accuracy problem.
Science marches on. In the 1500's, a round Earth was inconcievable for many cultures. They may very well have found a way to make that weapon type work - in fact, evidently they have, since it does.
Vaktathi wrote: It's a weapon that's been described as far too powerful for normal humans to wield, yet they clearly can and have had fluff, models and rules available to do so from Rogue Trader up to the current edition.
This one is easily explainable - they wield differently sized weapons. Obvious really, why design huge strong supersoldiers if you're not going to give them more firepower than what any guy could use?
Vaktathi wrote: We have depictions of them effortlessly cutting through Space Marine power armor, and being nigh-useless against it, and everything in between.
Plot armour.
Vaktathi wrote: If you're only paying attention to the most powerful and outlandish aspects of fluff, sure, then Guardsmen might seem overpowered. If you take everything as a whole, acknowledge that there are contradictions, stunningly gigantic variances in described power & capability, and functionality issues with it, the in-game representations are absolutely fine.
No, your select pieces of fluff might reconcile well with it, but the majority of the background won't. Love BL or not, it's the source of the majority of our fluff and it is canon, and outside of obvious plot armour cases it is a different setting entirely to what the game portrays. The same goes for the codices, actually. Telion and a few scout squads put down a planetary rebellion in a matter of days. Let that sink in.
Vaktathi wrote: Given the wildly varying portrayals and huge variations in power, methinks not. In some books, immensely experienced and capable Chaos Space Marines die to simple IG Mortars. In others, a single squad Space Marines slays literally thousands of Dark Eldar in close quarters combat without a casualty. How do you reconcile these? Do we assume that a DE Warriors should simply die in immense droves against an SM in tabletop gameplay?
Those Space Marines have plot armour - and arguably, as did the mortar shells.
Vaktathi wrote: Again, FFG's RPG's, like most RPG's, often exaggerate elements of the setting for the sake of cool factor. The Space Marines of Black Crusade and Deathwatch are also insanely more capable than the original Space Marines released for use in Dark Heresy in 2007/2008.
You don't understand what I mean. What I said was that Black Crusade Astartes are way weaker than Deathwatch Astartes, and why is quite obvious - to not make them so much more powerful than humans so they are nobrainer choices even in largely non-combat situations, simply because there may be combat.
Vaktathi wrote: Under FFG's rules, many common weapons in the 40k universe, often those that have consistently been portrayed as being capable of hurting a Space Marine, literally cannot do so unless massed in abstracted "Horde" units that artifically vastly increase their power. These are cinematic aspects and game mechanics, meant to portray a "special" and "heroic" band, with many associated tropes and belief suspensions, as opposed to an accurate reflection of the capabilities of various weapons and foes.
Nothing wrong with Horde units. In fact, plot armour seems just as rampant among Guard fluff as anywhere else, it's just less pointed out because there is less of it and they are underdogs anyway (which is their job).
Vaktathi wrote: Why are Ripper Swarms fine but Guardsmen are not? How much would you have to nerf Orks before they fit the narrative you seek? How much more pathetic can you make a Fire Warrior given their already terrible statline? Why are Eldar and Dark Eldar fine despite having similar depictions of them being slaughtered en-masse by Space Marines?
The game abstractions can't properly represent Fire Warriors, Rippers, Orks and Space Marines without sacrificing too much, unless you remove larger units, buff MEQ to be in the S/T 6-7 area (and nobz, and so on). Limitations of the system. I'd rather change the system, but when provided with a choice of faction to remove, removing Guard seems like the best band-aid choice.
Vaktathi wrote: If you're only looking at the absolute most exaggerated aspects of said lore.
It's not exaggerated. The supersonic Marines of ADB (yes, I meant supersonic, not subsonic), that is exaggerated. The Brothers of the Snake, that is exaggerated. Death of Antagonis is not. Horus Rising is not.
Vaktathi wrote: Sure. But why is it unthinkable for the reverse to occur as part of the same token of the grimdark? The 6 heroes/anti-heroes charge the faceless mob and are obliterated by overwhelming firepower before they can do anything and are soon forgotten as the bureaucracy and faceless ranks roll forward over everything. That's the aspect that's being forgotten here.
Because the setting is a human one. Grimdark is always from a perspective. Consider this; how grimdark is the setting to a Slaaneshi daemon? To an Ork? To a human on a safe pleasure world? Not very much. They are very content with their lives. Grimdark is not about making it gak for just everyone, it's about making it gak for the subject/s. Any grimdark setting could include vast majorities of repressed workers and a few ridiculously rich nobles living pleasant lives, who the workers simply can't overthrow.
The setting being so hilariously lethal and gakky for your average person (as well as the incoming, inevitable doom of the Imperium as a whole that comes sooner or later) is what makes it grimdark. Its technological regression and extreme dictatorship, its religious fanatism and xenophobia, that is what makes it grimdark.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Grey knights. Didn't make the list, but just the concept of a pure Grey Knights army seems absurd (from a gaming standpoint, I love the models).
Agreed. I think they'd be better as a hint and a whisper in the background. Members of the Inquisition suggesting that such a force might exist. They shouldn't be running around an open battlefield with tanks and such. Maybe as a special campaign army but not a full-fledged force.
I voted none. I actually quite like the idea behind Imperial Knights because they're an entire army of fething giant robots. I will agree that GeeDubs didn't bring that concept to life too well, simply because IK are so polarizing. You have to tailor your list to them to some degree, otherwise they're impossible to deal with if you're bringing an average list.
I have to wonder if this can be fixed by changing their statline. What if we reduced their AV to 10-11 against shooting attacks, but in close combat they always counted as AV13?
I voted Imperial Knights. I feel they should be set for apoc battles, not normal battles. This resentment stems from a guy that was at local store when I was painting my salamanders achilles raider. He walks up to me and says, "don't bother painting that, I will flatten it with my knights." I looked up at him and told him to %$#@ off.
I mean if it wasn't for that, they would be cool; but they belong in apoc only.
Mumblez wrote: I voted none. I actually quite like the idea behind Imperial Knights because they're an entire army of fething giant robots. I will agree that GeeDubs didn't bring that concept to life too well, simply because IK are so polarizing. You have to tailor your list to them to some degree, otherwise they're impossible to deal with if you're bringing an average list.
I have to wonder if this can be fixed by changing their statline. What if we reduced their AV to 10-11 against shooting attacks, but in close combat they always counted as AV13?
Yea, having an entire army of only two units is silly, like the Militarum Tempestus book. They both just feel so half-baked and it wouldn't have taken much more work to make them interesting and diverse codices. I don't know that they need to be removed entirely, they just need to be fully fleshed out, and not be super heavies.
It's not hard to think up 40k-esque Brettonian equivalents. You could have regular walkers "Hedge Knights" that form the troops section. Then some infantry Men at Arms, half-way between guardsmen and marines, trained to fend off infantry attacking the heavy walkers. Throw in some of the heraldry with standard bearers and peasant rabble armed with autoguns and you'd have an interesting vision of Feudal sci-fi.
Likewise the Tempestus are missing out on a lot of interesting opportunities: Scion snipers, demolitions teams, Tempestus sentinels, cybernetically enhanced ogryns, etc. Both books feel like something they cooked up over the course of a weekend with 0 playtesting.
I voted None. While I don't want to see any armies removed (quite the opposite, I'd love to see more), I do think there are one or two that should be so completely overhauled that they play nothing like they currently do. For example, I'd love for Nids to actually play like their fluff suggests, but the rules simply don't support it, and so we are left with triple DakkaFexes and double Dakka Flyrants.
Points cost is an abstract game mechanic that has no relevance to my immersion.
Well, prepare to be disappointed then.
It is inconcievable, because it is like five chihauhas attacking an elephant. They are five, sure, but it doesn't matter. They could be fifteen and it still would not matter. They can gang up as much as it like and it wouldn't help them anything. The size difference is not as large, but the Marine has armour and speed that more than makes up for it.
There is no such insane size difference. Just as Guardsmen can survive close combat with Orks, they can survive combat with a Space Marine. The Space Marine is faster and has better armor than an Ork, but similar resiliency and strength. A Space Marine is not a Monstrous Creature.
Now imagine if that fencer was huge, fast enough to cause a whole new type of psychological trauma in people who witness him fight, was strong enough to lift a car AND wore armour that a simple knife really isn't going to do anything against. You have to remember that the Guardsmen not giving him any space to dodge is irrelevant for him - he can do so anyway, and if they try to stop him they will be crushed. In fact, they'll even get in each other's way!
There are people today who can lift cars, depending on how you're defining that. A Space Mariine is fast, but he's not freaking Eldar fast. Likewise, there's plenty of places for knives to slip in and harm a space marine, there's plenty of fluff on that. Space Marines kill other Space Marines with knives all the time, Gaunts do it with claws, Orks do it with primitive Choppas, etc. A Space Marine's armor has weak points.
Just assuming he can always dodge everything is basically hand-wavijng any opposing counter-argument away with plot magic. We've have Marines killed by creatures far less graceful and far more clumsy and slow than norman Humans, Orks being the best example that comes to mind.
More like this: Fifteen go in, the Marine downs three with a right hook before anyone else can react, downing another three with a left hook (one of them blocks it but is nowhere near strong enough to actually prevent it from landing or even affecting its trajectory)
He's hitting three guys with one punch? Really? This is where we're going?
Ok, no, stopping this here. have I not read any such thing in the fluff or Marines hitting three opponents with a single blow, much less following it with another just like it. This is goofy Adam West batman stuff, hell I can't even recall seeing something like this in a comic book.
. The rest attack, some meaninglessly hitting armour plates, one getting a stroke of luck and hitting the soft armour with his bayonet. It is unlikely to go all the way through (even 'soft' armour is not very soft)
Um....why? Gaunts, Orks, Scarabs, Ripper Swarms, etc all seem to be able to find such gaps penetrate these things. And we're assuming that many trained soldiers can't hit squat? Methinks We're being a bit overboard here.
and even if it does, the wound is going to clot pretty much instantly and heal decently quickly as well.
Even as he's getting a dozen las-bolts shot into him? Remember, close combat isn't just dudes throwing punches, it's just as abstracted as the shooting example, possible moreso.
So a Space Marine has not only a 66% chance to hit, but a 66% chance to hit somewhat close to what he was firing at, with one shot from a burst? That is ridiculous.
Not really. You're assuming every time they pull a trigger, that they have a clear target. This is about the rarest thing in warfare.
In modern warfare, huge numbers of rounds are expended for each combatant killed. In Vietnam it was ~70,000 bullets fired for every Vietcong/North Vietnamese killed. In Afghanistan, the US GAO estimates it was 250,000 bullets fired for each "insurgent" killed. Huge amounts of ammunition are expended, and effectively the chances of getting a hit are random. You're putting rounds downrange about where you think the enemy is, not lining up direct shots at clear targets.
Do you have any experience with firearms? 40k's shooting system isn't a direct representation of single shots. Assault Cannons are excellent examples. They're not just firing 4 rounds, they're firing dozens or hundreds, the shot count is abstracted. I don't have any formal military training,, but you put a target a hundred meters downrange and I guarantee you I can hit that target at a rate better than BS10 even with a relatively mediocre accuracy rifle like an AK (I can put a Vindicare to shame with one of my AK's if we're assuming 40k accuracy is a perfectly accurate reflection of real hit rates). 40k's mechanics aren't representing that kind of direct translation.
Even with explosive rounds, there can be issues. German & Russian forces used explosive rounds in some situations in WW2. They were originally developed as ranging rounds for vehicle machineguns to give a visual range-check, but against people could be devastating, and were issued in limited quantities to snipers. Even these however may not necessarily put someone down. If you hit them somewhere like the hand or a grazing fleshwound to the leg, the bullet might not explode or wait until it's already exited their body (just because of the few nanoseconds it takes for the fuse to ignite the charge) to do so and they might still be able to fight (even if at a degraded level), whereas a shot to the hip is going to put them down quite spectacularly.
Science marches on. In the 1500's, a round Earth was inconcievable for many cultures. They may very well have found a way to make that weapon type work - in fact, evidently they have, since it does.
We've got pretty accurate descriptions of bolters, there's nothing about them that is particularly advanced. They're make-believe weapons that follow the rule of cool, rather than being exceedingly advanced technology.
This one is easily explainable - they wield differently sized weapons. Obvious really, why design huge strong supersoldiers if you're not going to give them more firepower than what any guy could use?
And while it's true they have different sized weapons, the gaps in their capabilities are not tremendous enough to show any difference in game. As for why? Who knows, it's 40k.
A real world analogy is probably good here. .38 special and .357 magnum. The latter is an upsized version of the former. The .357 is a much more powerful, hard hitting round with far more ferocious recoil. However, it's still largely a handgun round, packing significantly less punch than rifle rounds like 5.56, and thus it's not worth distinguishing in any sort of game terms, and even in real life the differences between the two on a human target are largely circumstantial.
No, your select pieces of fluff might reconcile well with it, but the majority of the background won't. Love BL or not, it's the source of the majority of our fluff and it is canon, and outside of obvious plot armour cases
Which would be 99% of Black Library.
it is a different setting entirely to what the game portrays. The same goes for the codices, actually. Telion and a few scout squads put down a planetary rebellion in a matter of days. Let that sink in.
And for every time that happens, a thousand times the rebellion goes through. Rebellions can be relatively easy things to crush if you cut off the charismatic head. These special characters are just that, special, they've done deeds that out of a million space marines, amongst uncountable trillions of Imperial soldiers, amongst hundreds of trillions of Imperial Citizens, merits note. In a galaxy that big, exemplary accomplishments are bound to happen. But ultimately they're not par for the course, they're exceptional deeds of legend.
Those Space Marines have plot armour
Right, and that needs to be recognized that plot armor is the standard state of things in most 40k stories, rather than accurate reflections of the capabilities of equipment and beings. Once you accept that, 40k's gameplay mechanics aren't so bad.
- and arguably, as did the mortar shells.
Why are we assuming the mortar shells are plot weapons? We're talking about a fist-sized explosive shell moving at hundreds of meters a second. If Bolters can skill Space Marines, certainly Mortars can. They certainly match up in game terms quite well, with similar S and AP.
Just as a guardsmen killing a dreadnought with a lasgun powerpack and some plants is. If you can't accept that a lot of this isn't written as realistic combat but rule of cool, you're simply going to be disappointed by any game, no matter what. Sorry, but there's no way around that.
Nothing wrong with Horde units. In fact, plot armour seems just as rampant among Guard fluff as anywhere else, it's just less pointed out because there is less of it and they are underdogs anyway (which is their job).
Yes, plot armor is rampant everywhere, IG, Eldar, SM, anyone who's the protagonist. But that's besides the point, the game mechanics are such that it needs to introduce an artificial construct for certain things to be able to harm a Player Character at all, even when such shouldn't necessarily be true in the fluff because these characters are built to such a high level of power. What'll put down a Space Marine in a 40k game on a 2+ with no armor save might need four or five shots to do so in the RPG setting.
The game abstractions can't properly represent Fire Warriors, Rippers, Orks and Space Marines without sacrificing too much, unless you remove larger units, buff MEQ to be in the S/T 6-7 area (and nobz, and so on). Limitations of the system. I'd rather change the system, but when provided with a choice of faction to remove, removing Guard seems like the best band-aid choice.
O_o so rampaging Orks should only have the slightest chance of being able to wound a Space Marine? medium anti-tank guns like Autocannons should have a good chance of leaving a naked space marine unscathed? Marines should routinely walk of plasma gun hits?
What would you do to Bolters then? Would they too be useless against Marines or would you have to adjust them to powerlevels of weapons far larger than what they really have any business being?
Methinks the problem isn't with the game mechanics here.
It's not exaggerated. The supersonic Marines of ADB (yes, I meant supersonic, not subsonic), that is exaggerated. The Brothers of the Snake, that is exaggerated. Death of Antagonis is not. Horus Rising is not.
] What examples from Horus rising are we referring to here? I ask mainly because I think I read that 8 or 9 years ago and don't remember most of it.
Holy crap that was a long time ago.
Because the setting is a human one. Grimdark is always from a perspective. Consider this; how grimdark is the setting to a Slaaneshi daemon? To an Ork? To a human on a safe pleasure world? Not very much. They are very content with their lives. Grimdark is not about making it gak for just everyone, it's about making it gak for the subject/s.
A lot of 40k lore would beg to differ. There's lots of 40k lore that just amounts to "life sucks and nothing good happened, the Bureaucracy rolled on". Dead Men Walking, The Inquisition War, The Siege of Vraks, etc.
The setting being so hilariously lethal and gakky for your average person (as well as the incoming, inevitable doom of the Imperium as a whole that comes sooner or later) is what makes it grimdark. Its technological regression and extreme dictatorship, its religious fanatism and xenophobia, that is what makes it grimdark.
And a big part of that in many cases is the heroes failing in depressing ways. It happens.
Ashiraya wrote: The game abstractions can't properly represent Fire Warriors, Rippers, Orks and Space Marines without sacrificing too much, unless you remove larger units, buff MEQ to be in the S/T 6-7 area (and nobz, and so on). Limitations of the system. I'd rather change the system, but when provided with a choice of faction to remove, removing Guard seems like the best band-aid choice.
So once you remove IG and make all the "awesome" space marines even more awesome then why exactly does anyone care how powerful they are? Without a "normal humans" army to compare space marines to they're just boring stat inflation. In fact you've just reduced the apparent power of space marines since they're now one "elite" army among a bunch of other "elites". The only way to make space marines look powerful would be to constantly talk about that old IG army with all 3s for a stat line that you removed.
*Like in an RPG where you have 1-2 damage with your sword at first level and 1-2 million damage with your sword at the end of the game, but it still takes the same number of hits to kill an enemy because everything has a HP increase to match your damage increase.
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Ashiraya wrote: More like this: Fifteen go in, the Marine downs three with a right hook before anyone else can react, downing another three with a left hook (one of them blocks it but is nowhere near strong enough to actually prevent it from landing or even affecting its trajectory). The rest attack, some meaninglessly hitting armour plates, one getting a stroke of luck and hitting the soft armour with his bayonet. It is unlikely to go all the way through (even 'soft' armour is not very soft) and even if it does, the wound is going to clot pretty much instantly and heal decently quickly as well. Say that fate gives him another clap on the shoulder and he gets to fire as well, his shot hitting the soft armour and melting a bit of it, dealing damage that is, ultimately, mostly superficial. Within ten seconds, he and the rest are dead too.
And then within another ten seconds the artillery barrage that the squad's radio operator was desperately calling in as the marine was slaughtering everyone arrives, and the space marine is a distant memory. Or a nearby plasma gunner vaporizes the space marine. Etc. The limits of the D6 system may over-estimate how good guardsmen are in melee against a space marine, but 40k also badly underestimates the firepower of the big guns.
So a Space Marine has not only a 66% chance to hit, but a 66% chance to hit somewhat close to what he was firing at, with one shot from a burst? That is ridiculous.
No, it's actually a sign of pretty impressive marksmanship, especially once you consider the inherent accuracy problems with a bolter.
In the 1500's, a round Earth was inconcievable for many cultures.
This is actually a myth. Everyone knew that the earth was round, the whole "all the skeptics thought Columbus would fall off the edge of the world" thing comes from a work of fiction that poorly-informed teachers keep presenting as fact.
They may very well have found a way to make that weapon type work - in fact, evidently they have, since it does.
Yes, it does. 66% of the time it will hit its target, and 66% of the time that hit will be immediately fatal. Sounds like that's a pretty successful weapon.
Obvious really, why design huge strong supersoldiers if you're not going to give them more firepower than what any guy could use?
Good question. Why do space marines carry mere bolters instead of giving every squad a full range of heavy weapons? It's really odd that GW decided to have their super soldiers use real-world infantry squad tactics for choosing their weapons instead of taking full advantage of their power armor (like the Starship Troopers soldiers GW ripped off).
Love BL or not, it's the source of the majority of our fluff and it is canon, and outside of obvious plot armour cases it is a different setting entirely to what the game portrays.
It is "canon", but only because GW's canon policy is "we don't have a canon policy that separates things into canon and non-canon". You might like BL fluff, but I could just as easily argue that the tabletop game takes priority
Telion and a few scout squads put down a planetary rebellion in a matter of days. Let that sink in.
So? What matters is how they put it down. Perhaps it was a typical rebellion where a few important and charismatic leaders decide to rebel, but the vast hordes following those leaders don't have much willpower or a redundant chain of command to continue fighting once the leaders are dead. So that's a few days of infiltration into a good shooting position, and a headshot or two that convinces the vast hordes that dying for some abstract ideology isn't really all that appealing.
Also, note that 40k does not portray that kind of battle. Even IG represent the elite of the elite taken from a whole planet's military forces and armed with weapons and equipment that most non-IG human soldiers could only dream of. Crushing a few civilians with autoguns and knives doesn't really say much about battlefield performance against a proper army.
Ashiraya wrote: The game abstractions can't properly represent Fire Warriors, Rippers, Orks and Space Marines without sacrificing too much, unless you remove larger units, buff MEQ to be in the S/T 6-7 area (and nobz, and so on). Limitations of the system. I'd rather change the system, but when provided with a choice of faction to remove, removing Guard seems like the best band-aid choice.
So once you remove IG and make all the "awesome" space marines even more awesome then why exactly does anyone care how powerful they are? Without a "normal humans" army to compare space marines to they're just boring stat inflation. In fact you've just reduced the apparent power of space marines since they're now one "elite" army among a bunch of other "elites". The only way to make space marines look powerful would be to constantly talk about that old IG army with all 3s for a stat line that you removed.
*Like in an RPG where you have 1-2 damage with your sword at first level and 1-2 million damage with your sword at the end of the game, but it still takes the same number of hits to kill an enemy because everything has a HP increase to match your damage increase.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: More like this: Fifteen go in, the Marine downs three with a right hook before anyone else can react, downing another three with a left hook (one of them blocks it but is nowhere near strong enough to actually prevent it from landing or even affecting its trajectory). The rest attack, some meaninglessly hitting armour plates, one getting a stroke of luck and hitting the soft armour with his bayonet. It is unlikely to go all the way through (even 'soft' armour is not very soft) and even if it does, the wound is going to clot pretty much instantly and heal decently quickly as well. Say that fate gives him another clap on the shoulder and he gets to fire as well, his shot hitting the soft armour and melting a bit of it, dealing damage that is, ultimately, mostly superficial. Within ten seconds, he and the rest are dead too.
And then within another ten seconds the artillery barrage that the squad's radio operator was desperately calling in as the marine was slaughtering everyone arrives, and the space marine is a distant memory. Or a nearby plasma gunner vaporizes the space marine. Etc. The limits of the D6 system may over-estimate how good guardsmen are in melee against a space marine, but 40k also badly underestimates the firepower of the big guns.
So a Space Marine has not only a 66% chance to hit, but a 66% chance to hit somewhat close to what he was firing at, with one shot from a burst? That is ridiculous.
No, it's actually a sign of pretty impressive marksmanship, especially once you consider the inherent accuracy problems with a bolter.
In the 1500's, a round Earth was inconcievable for many cultures.
This is actually a myth. Everyone knew that the earth was round, the whole "all the skeptics thought Columbus would fall off the edge of the world" thing comes from a work of fiction that poorly-informed teachers keep presenting as fact.
They may very well have found a way to make that weapon type work - in fact, evidently they have, since it does.
Yes, it does. 66% of the time it will hit its target, and 66% of the time that hit will be immediately fatal. Sounds like that's a pretty successful weapon.
Obvious really, why design huge strong supersoldiers if you're not going to give them more firepower than what any guy could use?
Good question. Why do space marines carry mere bolters instead of giving every squad a full range of heavy weapons? It's really odd that GW decided to have their super soldiers use real-world infantry squad tactics for choosing their weapons instead of taking full advantage of their power armor (like the Starship Troopers soldiers GW ripped off).
Love BL or not, it's the source of the majority of our fluff and it is canon, and outside of obvious plot armour cases it is a different setting entirely to what the game portrays.
It is "canon", but only because GW's canon policy is "we don't have a canon policy that separates things into canon and non-canon". You might like BL fluff, but I could just as easily argue that the tabletop game takes priority
Telion and a few scout squads put down a planetary rebellion in a matter of days. Let that sink in.
So? What matters is how they put it down. Perhaps it was a typical rebellion where a few important and charismatic leaders decide to rebel, but the vast hordes following those leaders don't have much willpower or a redundant chain of command to continue fighting once the leaders are dead. So that's a few days of infiltration into a good shooting position, and a headshot or two that convinces the vast hordes that dying for some abstract ideology isn't really all that appealing.
Also, note that 40k does not portray that kind of battle. Even IG represent the elite of the elite taken from a whole planet's military forces and armed with weapons and equipment that most non-IG human soldiers could only dream of. Crushing a few civilians with autoguns and knives doesn't really say much about battlefield performance against a proper army.
I guess marines being 8 times more powerful in shooting than guardsmen is just not enough for some folks.
Pelas Mir'san wrote: I voted Imperial Knights. I feel they should be set for apoc battles, not normal battles. This resentment stems from a guy that was at local store when I was painting my salamanders achilles raider. He walks up to me and says, "don't bother painting that, I will flatten it with my knights." I looked up at him and told him to %$#@ off.
I mean if it wasn't for that, they would be cool; but they belong in apoc only.
"In the 1500's, a round Earth was inconcievable for many cultures.
This is actually a myth. Everyone knew that the earth was round, the whole "all the skeptics thought Columbus would fall off the edge of the world" thing comes from a work of fiction that poorly-informed teachers keep presenting as fact." - The Silo
Before I state my next point I want you all to not take this personally and to make it easier I will attempt to now soften it with humor. If Imperium players get a whole codex dedicated to one super-heavy where is my Codex: Khorne Lord of Skulls.
Ok here is the real reason I wrote this post please no mods please close this forum post... It is getting REEEEEAALLY off topic and discussion is mostly becoming repetitive.
I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.
Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...
darkcloak wrote: I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.
Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...
Which chapter is on the Rulebook at the moment? Oh yeah, the same one that was on the 6e book as well. Those damn Ultrama.... Oh wait.
Before you point to the Codex. Remember it was originally called Codex: Ultramarines before all the lesser chapters wanted a bit of recognition.
Before I state my next point I want you all to not take this personally and to make it easier I will attempt to now soften it with humor. If Imperium players get a whole codex dedicated to one super-heavy where is my Codex: Khorne Lord of Skulls.
Really, there should be Chaos Knights as well, because they do exist in the game's background.
darkcloak wrote: I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.
Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...
Which chapter is on the Rulebook at the moment? Oh yeah, the same one that was on the 6e book as well. Those damn Ultrama.... Oh wait.
Before you point to the Codex. Remember it was originally called Codex: Ultramarines before all the lesser chapters wanted a bit of recognition.
My point exactly! Time for the old guard to be slaughtered mercilessly so we can remember them fondly. Remember I'm not advocating that we squat the smurfs, just saying I think SM fluff would be better off if the best and brightest chapter was slain almost to a man.
Think about it, they got off easy during the HH, its about time Calgar pulled a Pedro and watched his entire sector die.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact I'd even go so far as to say that the Ultramarines being eradicated would be one of the best stories GW could do right now.
Why should you buy the new Ltd Ed Marneus Calgar? Because he got shredded into mincemeat!
They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.
Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.
They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.
Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.
That's about how out of place I see the Tau.
Since when are Tau a "happy" faction? They're a generic scifi evil empire with Starship Troopers power armor. The only way they're "good" is that they're pragmatic enough to use science instead of religious idiocy, and to offer their enemies a chance to surrender and be absorbed into their empire instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in their path. Sure, they talk a lot about the "greater good", but only in the same way that the US talks about "bringing democracy" to countries that just happen to have valuable resources to exploit. In reality they're exactly what space marines would be if they were focused entirely on winning wars efficiently instead of absurd religious rituals.
They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.
Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.
That's about how out of place I see the Tau.
Since when are Tau a "happy" faction? They're a generic scifi evil empire with Starship Troopers power armor. The only way they're "good" is that they're pragmatic enough to use science instead of religious idiocy, and to offer their enemies a chance to surrender and be absorbed into their empire instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in their path. Sure, they talk a lot about the "greater good", but only in the same way that the US talks about "bringing democracy" to countries that just happen to have valuable resources to exploit. In reality they're exactly what space marines would be if they were focused entirely on winning wars efficiently instead of absurd religious rituals.
Na, I think the problem is more under the hood than your particulars: Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate. People are basically bad - and 40k ran with that. The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.
I would rather an immersive fiction maintain a consistent sense of reality than entertain the notion of fake virtue working best.
kveldulf wrote: Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate.
They don't. They work together because of a combination of Tau propaganda/brainwashing and the alternative to submitting and being good servants of the Tau being death. Or, in the case of the Kroot (and presumably other Tau allies that have a higher status than conquered enemies) they work together for the pragmatic reason that they both benefit from working together.
The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.
Only if you stubbornly refuse to think about what you're reading beyond the most superficial interpretation. If you spend a bit of thought on the Tau it's pretty obvious that they are a reference to real-world colonialism and empire-building where there was lots of talk about virtue and helping the poor unfortunate people who were being colonized but the reality was that it was all about exploiting them for the benefit of the major powers. All Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others.
kveldulf wrote: Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate.
They don't. They work together because of a combination of Tau propaganda/brainwashing and the alternative to submitting and being good servants of the Tau being death. Or, in the case of the Kroot (and presumably other Tau allies that have a higher status than conquered enemies) they work together for the pragmatic reason that they both benefit from working together.
The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.
Only if you stubbornly refuse to think about what you're reading beyond the most superficial interpretation. If you spend a bit of thought on the Tau it's pretty obvious that they are a reference to real-world colonialism and empire-building where there was lots of talk about virtue and helping the poor unfortunate people who were being colonized but the reality was that it was all about exploiting them for the benefit of the major powers. All Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others.
Hmm. I saw the Tau as more communist/caste system than anything else. /shrug
As far as their reasoning goes in convincing other races to.... 'join them', the only rhetoric I see that's legitimate is the matter of survival - that's it.
I see their virtue - their 'greater good', 'absorb cultural sanctity' as a bit contrived because of how hamfisted that really is in RL..
Tau go much further than the artificial crap of 30k imperial truth. Heck, at least in that case, they had a singular god like figure that was the referent for truth - thus things didn't digress into cultural mediocrity: The Tau's absorption ethos ignores the matter of differing opinions.... even among Ethereals. It's all the idea that the collective magically works. At least with the Imperium, they had magic to fudge believability.
I just don't see the Tau's ideology holding on for any great length of time, even on a singular world - without persistent violence and depression.
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I am 'one of those' who regard secularism as illogical - since it essentially is a religion.
kveldulf wrote: Hmm. I saw the Tau as more communist/caste system than anything else. /shrug
No, the Imperium are the communists, complete with gray concrete hive cities, commissars, and BMPs to carry their troops around. Tau are utilitarians and pragmatists with a side of "all Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others".
As far as their reasoning goes in convincing other races to.... 'join them', the only rhetoric I see that's legitimate is the matter of survival - that's it.
And that's exactly the choice the Tau offer you: either surrender and accept a submissive position in the Tau empire, or die. They'll try diplomacy and persuasion first because it's much better to have a planet join willingly without a fight than to have an expensive war to conquer it, but there's always the implied threat that if diplomacy doesn't work a Tau fleet is going to show up in orbit and change your mind.
I see their virtue - their 'greater good', 'absorb cultural sanctity' as a bit contrived because of how hamfisted that really is in RL..
And, again, you're making the mistake of assuming that propaganda is sincere belief. Tau believe in the "greater good" in the same way that the US believes in "spreading democracy" in countries that just happen to have resources to exploit or a strategically-valuable location. They'll use it as a nice propaganda tool, but in the end you have the same choice: submit or die.
The Tau's absorption ethos ignores the matter of differing opinions.... even among Ethereals. It's all the idea that the collective magically works.
No, you've just missed the point entirely. If you are a non-Tau your opinion is "absorbed" in that you submit and obey the Tau or you die. If you have something useful to provide to the empire then the Tau will use you as a tool, but they don't care one bit about things like the supposed virtue of having diverse opinions.
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I am 'one of those' who regard secularism as illogical - since it essentially is a religion.
No, the Imperium are the communists, complete with gray concrete hive cities, commissars, and BMPs to carry their troops around. Tau are utilitarians and pragmatists with a side of "all Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others".
They do have commissars, but they are fascists.
and
Regarding, your general points, I relent, they are villainous - as bad as the Imperium. They just turn xenos into slaves than kill them. That still seems hamfisted in.
kveldulf wrote: Hmm. I saw the Tau as more communist/caste system than anything else. /shrug
No, the Imperium are the communists, complete with gray concrete hive cities, commissars, and BMPs to carry their troops around. Tau are utilitarians and pragmatists with a side of "all Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others".
The Imperium may look that way superficially but it's based on a religious structure, and communism is not. That they might act the same is possible, but they have two very different principles at their root. I tend to think the Imperium more or less favors a structure more that of an Oligarchy, though there may be a better description than that out there.
kveldulf wrote: Regarding, your general points, I relent, they are villainous - as bad as the Imperium. They just turn xenos into slaves than kill them. That still seems hamfisted in.
How is it "hamfisted in"? Because GW dared to include a pragmatic faction that ruthlessly conquers anything they find valuable in the most efficient way possible instead of bathing in the blood of slaughtered children just to show how Evil they are? Or because a more direct Starship Troopers ripoff (crisis suits, which are what space marines wish they could be) doesn't fit the "WHFB in space" theme of the other factions?
Go ahead and show me how irreligious you are. I think the scale you'll come up with will prove my point.
I am exactly 496.2 irreligious. Now what exactly was your point?
How is it "hamfisted in"? Because GW dared to include a pragmatic faction that ruthlessly conquers anything they find valuable in the most efficient way possible instead of bathing in the blood of slaughtered children just to show how Evil they are? Or because a more direct Starship Troopers ripoff (crisis suits, which are what space marines wish they could be) doesn't fit the "WHFB in space" theme of the other factions?
Simply put, I think they are forcing Tau successes with the idea that a caste, multicultural, uniform system would work. I think that's Gene Rodenberry'izing warhammer.
Pragmatic? One could argue any race seeking its own preservation is being just that. So I don't know how much more pragmatic they are than the imperium... or where you are going with that. As far as warhammer being a rip off.. yep that's why its fun. And the dark humor bit.
I am exactly 496.2 irreligious. Now what exactly was your point?
............wha? A bit eccentric eh? So, here's where I was going: one cannot borrow meaning to then prove a belief neutral / independent. its contradictory. That's the problem with secularism - it cannot justify its position with real meaning
Vaktathi wrote: There is no such insane size difference. Just as Guardsmen can survive close combat with Orks, they can survive combat with a Space Marine. The Space Marine is faster and has better armor than an Ork, but similar resiliency and strength. A Space Marine is not a Monstrous Creature.
The size difference is not as large, but he has armour, speed and skill to make up for that.
Do you have any non-game mechanic source on Orks being of similar strength and resilience?
Vaktathi wrote: There are people today who can lift cars, depending on how you're defining that.
As in, a big truck full with soldiers is stuck in the mud, and a Marine can walk up behind it and just casually lift up the entire back of the truck, pulling it to safe ground.
Vaktathi wrote: A Space Mariine is fast, but he's not freaking Eldar fast.
And? It's not like it's going to make a difference at that point. He is still fast enough to dodge every strike you throw against him, and he has enough mass and hard enough armour to do so even if it means crushing someone who happened to stand where he is dodging to.
Vaktathi wrote: Likewise, there's plenty of places for knives to slip in and harm a space marine,
And how are you hitting those, exactly? Ganging up is not that big of an advantage - the numbers we're talking here means they're getting in each other's way, and since they can't do gak to prevent him from dodging to wherever he pleases (or, if he decides to run off, he can do that and blocking his way won't impede him in the slighest).
Outside IG protagonist fluff? Very rare, at best. Remember that this is armour that can take a grenade belt detonating at its feet without being pierced, or can walk through fire (or be set on fire, for that matter) without problems.
Vaktathi wrote: Just assuming he can always dodge everything is basically hand-wavijng any opposing counter-argument away with plot magic. We've have Marines killed by creatures far less graceful and far more clumsy and slow than norman Humans, Orks being the best example that comes to mind.
Orks are not only many like humans, they are also stronger and tougher. Even then, it's going to be a pretty damn tough prospect for normal boyz. You'd need their tech, Nobz...
Vaktathi wrote: He's hitting three guys with one punch? Really? This is where we're going?
Ok, no, stopping this here. have I not read any such thing in the fluff or Marines hitting three opponents with a single blow, much less following it with another just like it. This is goofy Adam West batman stuff, hell I can't even recall seeing something like this in a comic book.
It's not that illogical at all. Consider how much area you can actually cover with a hook, now consider their size, how packed the Guardsmen are, and the fact that they can't do anything at all to impede the trajectory of the blow.
Vaktathi wrote: Um....why? Gaunts, Orks, Scarabs, Ripper Swarms, etc all seem to be able to find such gaps penetrate these things. And we're assuming that many trained soldiers can't hit squat? Methinks We're being a bit overboard here.
Me thinks not.
Rippers have problems too, but that is mostly because of their size. Their teeth are still razor sharp. Scarabs have their entropic thingy that says feth you to armoured targets. Gaunts are extremely fast (Eldar-fast, though not as skilled) and lethal.
Vaktathi wrote: Even as he's getting a dozen las-bolts shot into him? Remember, close combat isn't just dudes throwing punches, it's just as abstracted as the shooting example, possible moreso.
Yeah. Even if you somehow manage to bayonet a weak spot, you'll never get to fire in the same strike. SM also laugh off lasguns everywhere outside of the game.
Vaktathi wrote: Not really. You're assuming every time they pull a trigger, that they have a clear target. This is about the rarest thing in warfare.
In modern warfare, huge numbers of rounds are expended for each combatant killed. In Vietnam it was ~70,000 bullets fired for every Vietcong/North Vietnamese killed. In Afghanistan, the US GAO estimates it was 250,000 bullets fired for each "insurgent" killed. Huge amounts of ammunition are expended, and effectively the chances of getting a hit are random. You're putting rounds downrange about where you think the enemy is, not lining up direct shots at clear targets.
Do you have any experience with firearms? 40k's shooting system isn't a direct representation of single shots. Assault Cannons are excellent examples. They're not just firing 4 rounds, they're firing dozens or hundreds, the shot count is abstracted. I don't have any formal military training,, but you put a target a hundred meters downrange and I guarantee you I can hit that target at a rate better than BS10 even with a relatively mediocre accuracy rifle like an AK (I can put a Vindicare to shame with one of my AK's if we're assuming 40k accuracy is a perfectly accurate reflection of real hit rates). 40k's mechanics aren't representing that kind of direct translation.
The most common situation I encounter where my bolters matter is when the Guardsmen are ~9" away, in open ground. There, it surely should not be so hard to hit and kill?
Vaktathi wrote: We've got pretty accurate descriptions of bolters, there's nothing about them that is particularly advanced. They're make-believe weapons that follow the rule of cool, rather than being exceedingly advanced technology.
Where are those advanced descriptions explaining everything? In Forge World? Forge World's explanations make zero sense whatsoever - you have incredibly small bore Battle Cannons, every vehicle is slow, ground clearances do not match, and so on and so forth.
Vaktathi wrote: And while it's true they have different sized weapons, the gaps in their capabilities are not tremendous enough to show any difference in game. As for why? Who knows, it's 40k.
A real world analogy is probably good here. .38 special and .357 magnum. The latter is an upsized version of the former. The .357 is a much more powerful, hard hitting round with far more ferocious recoil. However, it's still largely a handgun round, packing significantly less punch than rifle rounds like 5.56, and thus it's not worth distinguishing in any sort of game terms, and even in real life the differences between the two on a human target are largely circumstantial.
Why is it not tremendous? The strength difference, ability to absorb recoil and so on is.
So we'll just average it out. Remove the worst cases of each faction being plot armoured, and you now have something useable.
Vaktathi wrote: Why are we assuming the mortar shells are plot weapons? We're talking about a fist-sized explosive shell moving at hundreds of meters a second. If Bolters can skill Space Marines, certainly Mortars can. They certainly match up in game terms quite well, with similar S and AP.
Are you sure it was one of those tiny portable mortars and not one of the many, many artillery mortars? Could have been a Colossus Siege Mortar, for example.
Vaktathi wrote: Just as a guardsmen killing a dreadnought with a lasgun powerpack and some plants is. If you can't accept that a lot of this isn't written as realistic combat but rule of cool, you're simply going to be disappointed by any game, no matter what. Sorry, but there's no way around that.
As said, we disregard plot armour.
I am okay with having the 40K game as an arcade-style game that doesn't make any sense, really, but not when the point of it is to be a story-driven game.
Vaktathi wrote: Yes, plot armor is rampant everywhere, IG, Eldar, SM, anyone who's the protagonist. But that's besides the point, the game mechanics are such that it needs to introduce an artificial construct for certain things to be able to harm a Player Character at all, even when such shouldn't necessarily be true in the fluff because these characters are built to such a high level of power. What'll put down a Space Marine in a 40k game on a 2+ with no armor save might need four or five shots to do so in the RPG setting.
Which is fine. Lascannons will still probably 2shot you, which is not odd at all. Same with meltas.
Vaktathi wrote: O_o so rampaging Orks should only have the slightest chance of being able to wound a Space Marine? medium anti-tank guns like Autocannons should have a good chance of leaving a naked space marine unscathed? Marines should routinely walk of plasma gun hits?
Many things would need to be adjusted, not only Marines, hence why I included Nobz as an example. No, I do not say that Marines should walk off plasma gun hits without impediment. But yes, standard Orks should not have very good chances.
Vaktathi wrote: What examples from Horus rising are we referring to here? I ask mainly because I think I read that 8 or 9 years ago and don't remember most of it.
Holy crap that was a long time ago.
Horus Rising and its sister novels False Gods and Galaxy in Flames has lots of interesting information on Space Marines. Aside from providing additional data on their size, it also shows that Marines are so much more than their wargear (the Auretian Technocracy who also wear Astartes-like PA and bolters get absolutely dominated by Astartes infantry) and it also explains that SM had an odd effect on humans they were fighting. Soldiers so large and so bulky moving so fast triggered some odd kind of extreme shock in the poor humans who could not believe such a thing was physically possible, and while I do not recall what the syndrome was called, it was still quite interesting to see just how far from our own reality the nature of warfare in 40k is.
Vaktathi wrote: A lot of 40k lore would beg to differ. There's lots of 40k lore that just amounts to "life sucks and nothing good happened, the Bureaucracy rolled on". Dead Men Walking, The Inquisition War, The Siege of Vraks, etc.
And in most cases, it's just gak for the humans. Yes, the DA took a beating from the CSM at Vraks. It's grimdark in another way for them, though. They fight on well, but ultimately there is nothing the SM can do to stop the Imperium from falling - they are too few, and the enemies and the warzones are too many.
Vaktathi wrote: And a big part of that in many cases is the heroes failing in depressing ways. It happens.
Indeed, such as getting rekt by Chaos Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote:So once you remove IG and make all the "awesome" space marines even more awesome then why exactly does anyone care how powerful they are? Without a "normal humans" army to compare space marines to they're just boring stat inflation. In fact you've just reduced the apparent power of space marines since they're now one "elite" army among a bunch of other "elites". The only way to make space marines look powerful would be to constantly talk about that old IG army with all 3s for a stat line that you removed.
*Like in an RPG where you have 1-2 damage with your sword at first level and 1-2 million damage with your sword at the end of the game, but it still takes the same number of hits to kill an enemy because everything has a HP increase to match your damage increase.
It's not about making SM as strong as possible for its own sake. If IG are gone and the game adjusted, SM will still match fairly well with the other factions, causing the game to resemble its own lore more. That is the point. That said, I would not remove IG anyway. They have their spot, and I can soak up the immersionbreaking. But if forced to remove one, they go!
...If we exclude obvious choices like Knights and Militarum Tempestus, that is, whose loss would be pretty much irrelevant.
TheSilo wrote:I guess marines being 8 times more powerful in shooting than guardsmen is just not enough for some folks.
kveldulf wrote: Simply put, I think they are forcing Tau successes with the idea that a caste, multicultural, uniform system would work. I think that's Gene Rodenberry'izing warhammer.
You're joking, right? The Tau aren't multicultural in the Star Trek "diversity is awesome" sense, they just allow everyone to submit to the Tau empire and obey the ethereals. They enforce conformity through a combination of propaganda/brainwashing and threats of a Tau invasion fleet appearing in orbit, not by saying "hey guys, let's all be peaceful and happy together".
Pragmatic? One could argue any race seeking its own preservation is being just that. So I don't know how much more pragmatic they are than the imperium... or where you are going with that.
The Imperium isn't pragmatic, they're a bunch of religious zealots who care more about "honor" than winning. The Tau will shoot you to death from a safe distance because that's the most efficient way to kill you. A space marine will insist on fighting an honorable duel with swords. The Tau will abandon territory without hesitation if defending that territory is a bad strategy. The Imperium will sacrifice millions of guardsmen to stubbornly hold an irrelevant patch of ground and execute any officer who dares to suggest that retreating and saving those troops for a more important fight would be a good idea. The Tau will use science and engineering to build the best possible gun and then kill you with it. The Imperium will use WWI-era technology because science is heresy and the machine god does not permit modification to the sacred designs. Etc.
............wha? A bit eccentric eh? So, here's where I was going: one cannot borrow meaning to then prove a belief neutral / independent. its contradictory. That's the problem with secularism - it cannot justify its position with real meaning
I really have no clue what you're talking about here. Secularism is simply the belief that society/government should stay out of religion and religious belief should be a personal choice by individuals in their private lives. There's no need to justify that position with "real meaning", whatever that is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: It's not about making SM as strong as possible for its own sake. If IG are gone and the game adjusted, SM will still match fairly well with the other factions, causing the game to resemble its own lore more.
Have you seen the Tau and Eldar codices lately? Even if you ignore IG entirely "basic" marine units (IOW, anything that isn't some kind of multi-codex death star) are on the low end of power. I don't really see how getting killed by guardsmen is fluff-destroying but being killed even more efficiently by basic fire warriors is fine.
It isn't on the pole, nor do I want them completely removed from the game, but Imperial Knights. I'd like to see them played but only at restricted points levels, my local meta has loads of Knights that are played in stupidly low points levels and it just irritates me slightly when your opponent puts down a super heavy in 1000 points match :/
You're joking, right? The Tau aren't multicultural in the Star Trek "diversity is awesome" sense, they just allow everyone to submit to the Tau empire and obey the ethereals. They enforce conformity through a combination of propaganda/brainwashing and threats of a Tau invasion fleet appearing in orbit, not by saying "hey guys, let's all be peaceful and happy together".
Yes, they are a bit better than Rodenberry fluff.
I'm arguing the mechanics, it would be like saying 'communism works guys' when in reality, it depresses (unless everyone is perfect... or perfectly indoctrinated ). A caste system is inherently divided and thus an singular purpose to do anything would be quite limited... without magic. If they had an internal power struggle it would be a bit better - relaying the gritty reality.
The Imperium isn't pragmatic, they're a bunch of religious zealots who care more about "honor" than winning. The Tau will shoot you to death from a safe distance because that's the most efficient way to kill you. A space marine will insist on fighting an honorable duel with swords. The Tau will abandon territory without hesitation if defending that territory is a bad strategy. The Imperium will sacrifice millions of guardsmen to stubbornly hold an irrelevant patch of ground and execute any officer who dares to suggest that retreating and saving those troops for a more important fight would be a good idea. The Tau will use science and engineering to build the best possible gun and then kill you with it. The Imperium will use WWI-era technology because science is heresy and the machine god does not permit modification to the sacred designs. Etc.
Depends on the era, but yes, 40k generally has more zealotry. But really, what is zealotry when you have physical, blood thirsty, booby demons in the universe? That word sort of loses the stigma we know it has here in RL - in that relation. As far as this 'pragmatic' you seem to pride the Tau to have, more than the Imperium, are you reading the same books? Same fluff? Yea, sure there are the exceptional dumb Custer moments but that is the exceptional thing, and not something to get all absolutist about. Generally, (and this is what makes 40k impressive and alluring) is the scale and depth the Imperium has. From the sheer mind boggling manpower and colossal things it can summon, and superhuman leaders, it puts to perspective that WW1 'no hold barred' feeling, in which the true horror of pragmatism can be realized, albeit, novel. Tau on the other hand somehow artificially compete with this scale because they have guns that can shoot 'more faster' than the sheer weight of volume the AM can bring?? Uhuh. It was more about selling chicken shas'bots.
As far as technology goes, the Tau area bit over glorified. On the table top, they may be painted a certain way as technologically uber, but in the BL I read about the Imperium, they are still very high tech and impressive - in relation to the Tau. There is diversity in this to consider as well.
I really have no clue what you're talking about here. Secularism is simply the belief that society/government should stay out of religion and religious belief should be a personal choice by individuals in their private lives. There's no need to justify that position with "real meaning", whatever that is.
Yes, I know what it is.
Again, why isn't there a need to justifying that belief (even to yourself)? If there's no reason to justify, then why is it practiced? Believe it or not, this concept did not invent itself; it came from some manner of moral law. It's a word that falls flat on its face when seriously used.
kveldulf wrote: I'm arguing the mechanics, it would be like saying 'communism works guys' when in reality, it depresses (unless everyone is perfect... or perfectly indoctrinated ). A caste system is inherently divided and thus an singular purpose to do anything would be quite limited... without magic. If they had an internal power struggle it would be a bit better - relaying the gritty reality.
Sigh. You keep missing the point here. The Tau say "the greater good works", but that's because it's Tau propaganda. Of course they're going to talk about how wonderful they are in their own propaganda. But in reality we see that the Tau empire doesn't function by having a wonderful utopia where everyone respects their differences and values diversity and peaceful cooperation, it functions by having a totalitarian state where dissent is not tolerated.
As far as this 'pragmatic' you seem to pride the Tau to have, more than the Imperium, are you reading the same books? Same fluff? Yea, sure there are the exceptional dumb Custer moments but that is the exceptional thing, and not something to get all absolutist about.
I think you've just missed the entire point of the setting. The Imperium is stupid and inefficient and that's the whole point! That's where the "grimdark" aspect of the setting comes from. Humanity is ruled by an insane theocracy that deliberately maintains a state of suffering so unimaginable that death seems like a pleasant alternative, and this is the best hope for survival. We, as outside observers, have to sit and watch as the Imperium is destroyed by its own rejection of pragmatic things like science and good strategy because it has reached a point where mindless obedience is the only remaining option. To overthrow the Imperium and replace it with a sensible system would mean a fatal moment of weakness for humanity, and so the Imperium continues to exist and prolong the slow death of humanity.
As far as technology goes, the Tau area bit over glorified. On the table top, they may be painted a certain way as technologically uber, but in the BL I read about the Imperium, they are still very high tech and impressive - in relation to the Tau. There is diversity in this to consider as well.
Yeah, those WWI-era tanks and artillery guns are certainly more advanced than Starship Troopers power armor and flying tanks. The Imperium has isolated examples of superior technology, but they're all locked away in stasis fields somewhere because they're priceless religious relics that can never be risked in battle. The vast majority of the Imperium's military would consider Vietnam-era US military hardware a massive upgrade.
Again, why isn't there a need to justifying that belief (even to yourself)? If there's no reason to justify, then why is it practiced? Believe it or not, this concept did not invent itself; it came from some manner of moral law. It's a word that falls flat on its face when seriously used.
I really have no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps we should just abandon this tangent since you seem to be incapable of communicating your opinions in a way that other people can understand?
darkcloak wrote: I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.
Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...
Which chapter is on the Rulebook at the moment? Oh yeah, the same one that was on the 6e book as well. Those damn Ultrama.... Oh wait.
Before you point to the Codex. Remember it was originally called Codex: Ultramarines before all the lesser chapters wanted a bit of recognition.
My point exactly! Time for the old guard to be slaughtered mercilessly so we can remember them fondly. Remember I'm not advocating that we squat the smurfs, just saying I think SM fluff would be better off if the best and brightest chapter was slain almost to a man.
Think about it, they got off easy during the HH, its about time Calgar pulled a Pedro and watched his entire sector die.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact I'd even go so far as to say that the Ultramarines being eradicated would be one of the best stories GW could do right now.
Why should you buy the new Ltd Ed Marneus Calgar? Because he got shredded into mincemeat!
do you supprot senselessly getting ridda the other big 4? if you don't like ultramarines don't paint em.
Well actually if the UM died in a big battle with the Tyranids, I'd probably want to paint some! It was never about disliking them, I just thought it would be a cool storyline. And now that you mention it... another Istvaan type massacre would also suit me just fine. And again, not voting to remove them, just kill them off mostly. Maybe the surviving Marines have to form back into legions? Maybe they have another founding?
See you can't deny it dude. Killing Space Marines is awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: I know all about the first nid attack where 2nd Co gets wiped. That's why I think its fitting that the nids finish em off!
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I were in marketing I could sell this like lemonade!
Sorry we nuked Ultramar guys. Now how would you like to buy our new Ultramarine line "Tyrranic Crusaders"?
Maybe I'll let Cassius live to become the new Chapter Master?
:Rolls out brand new SM models:
Sorry Sisters!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I smell a supplement! Mwuhahaha
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm sorry to do this but I wanna talk about tau
I hate Tau. A lot. They are overpowering sometimes, and they can pull off some hijinx that are frustrating to deal with, and rip tides are just awful.
But I love the feeling I get when I beat them! That makes them fun for me.
Sigh. You keep missing the point here. The Tau say "the greater good works", but that's because it's Tau propaganda. Of course they're going to talk about how wonderful they are in their own propaganda. But in reality we see that the Tau empire doesn't function by having a wonderful utopia where everyone respects their differences and values diversity and peaceful cooperation, it functions by having a totalitarian state where dissent is not tolerated.
Yes I agree and understand - they are not who they seem to be: their own ideals are indeed a farse.
The Tau are the only race in 40k in which marxist ideals are made blatant and furthermore have somehow great success..... in the galactic scene..... without some serious magical leadership.
Then supposedly, each caste works with each other in harmony - unified under the kingly caste because they had some good ideas back in the day.
Then there is the issue with xenos they subjugate - somehow making/hoping for lasting obedience in a culture neutral government - even with lots of violence, that's a tall order for one world. Maybe they don't care about production power of the worlds they conquer? I doubt it.
I think you've just missed the entire point of the setting. The Imperium is stupid and inefficient and that's the whole point! That's where the "grimdark" aspect of the setting comes from. Humanity is ruled by an insane theocracy that deliberately maintains a state of suffering so unimaginable that death seems like a pleasant alternative, and this is the best hope for survival. We, as outside observers, have to sit and watch as the Imperium is destroyed by its own rejection of pragmatic things like science and good strategy because it has reached a point where mindless obedience is the only remaining option. To overthrow the Imperium and replace it with a sensible system would mean a fatal moment of weakness for humanity, and so the Imperium continues to exist and prolong the slow death of humanity.
I agree. The beast that is the Imperium takes awhile before its cogs start going, but once it gets going, it spews forth outrageous numbers with over the top machines of war. That is their charm. It's also seems to be a very realistic tone in 'all out' warfare to conquer or maintain worlds, unless your technology can mind control people into submission. As far as the whole 'decline of the Imperium' summary you gave, I agree, I guess? Not sure why you brought all that up other than support why the Tau ideals are more sensible or more fitting? Well, I think they, the authors, intended for them to be flawed. I bet we both agree on that. However, the devs that designed the Tau couldn't help themselves to paint in a Gene Marxberry flavor xenos with robotech because in their explanation: why not?
Yeah, those WWI-era tanks and artillery guns are certainly more advanced than Starship Troopers power armor and flying tanks. The Imperium has isolated examples of superior technology, but they're all locked away in stasis fields somewhere because they're priceless religious relics that can never be risked in battle. The vast majority of the Imperium's military would consider Vietnam-era US military hardware a massive upgrade.
Oh boy, 'starship trooper power armour and flying tanks are superior than WW1 inspired tanks'? What an awesome comparison /sarcasm. Nevermind those 'WW1 Tanks' are more than capable of reducing 'Starship trooper power armour' to debris, they are most likely mass produced with a cost efficiency capable of making a battle suit pilot blush. And flying tanks? you mean anti grav right? That's not really them flying, but if they really could, then anti air resources are now applicable to armor, and.... the tank ratio still favors the imperium even more so.
I really have no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps we should just abandon this tangent since you seem to be incapable of communicating your opinions in a way that other people can understand?
I sense I should perhaps apologize? I guess I'm sorry for not correlating this very well - to the topic of the Tau?
To make it clear to you, I have issue with essentially the Tau being successful 'secular atheists' with no magical explanation - That's too artificial. Their belief does not carry any motivational substance (ultimate meaning) other than the shallow notion of 'just because'. Whenever a fiction makes this sort of culture effective in a grand scale, I tend to roll my eyes.
Also, I'm having a hard time reading you here. Are you merely stating secularism as a definition and leaving it at that? Well, I wasn't originally making a point of its existence, only its belief & practice - that its illogical. I later explained the word will eventually have to borrow from a moral law - so its use usually becomes a contradiction - unless you are pointing at its circular problem. That's where I'm coming from when evaluating things like the Tau.
The size difference is not as large, but he has armour, speed and skill to make up for that.
Even if we assume this, small groups of humans can and have quite frequently killed elephants with far more primitive weapons than automatic rifles with bayonets and hand grenades.
Do you have any non-game mechanic source on Orks being of similar strength and resilience?
Orks being able to have parts lopped off and re-attached to other orks, including heads? Orks taking multiple bolter shells, without armor, and still roving on? I know these have been portrayed multiple times. I don't have a whole lot of books on hand right here so can't go digging too much.
As in, a big truck full with soldiers is stuck in the mud, and a Marine can walk up behind it and just casually lift up the entire back of the truck, pulling it to safe ground.
Truck is pretty vague, that can be anything from a Tacoma to an 18 wheeler
not like it's going to make a difference at that point. He is still fast enough to dodge every strike you throw against him,
This is where we have an issue. We're just assuming he can dodge any number of attacks any number of times from any number of directions. That's where it gets into the realm of absurdity, and we very clearly have Space Marines being killed by blows from far more clumsy creatures than trained human soldiers.
The idea that a Space Marine can just dodge everything from everywhere is the problem here, and it's a patently false idea.
And how are you hitting those, exactly? Ganging up is not that big of an advantage
Ganging up is a huge advantage, which humans have used throughout history to kill far larger, stronger, tougher, and deadlier creatures than themselves, with exceedingly primitive weapons. It works. If we're just handwaving that way then nothing in the 40k setting is going to feel right on the table.
- the numbers we're talking here means they're getting in each other's way,
Four or five? Probably not a huge issue. Fifteen? Sure, it'd be an issue then.
and since they can't do gak to prevent him from dodging to wherever he pleases
Again, if we're just going to assume the Space Marine can always dodge every attack, no matter how simultaneous or multi-vector strikes may be, then there is no way to make a functional game involving space marines that will not break your immersion.
(or, if he decides to run off, he can do that and blocking his way won't impede him in the slighest).
Tthat's entirely true, the Space Marine can always withdraw, and that might be his best option, and short of dumping automatic fire after him, there's not much they could probably do about it, I'll grant that.
Outside IG protagonist fluff? Very rare,
Most anything where a Space Marine is killed in a melee combat that doesn't involve a power weapon? Space Marine armor is not proof against everything in every place. Orks can get Choppa's in, Tyranids can get claws and teeth in, Eldar can get blades in, other Space Marines can get knives in. What's so special about guardsmen that they can't possibly stick a knife in weak areas?
at best. Remember that this is armour that can take a grenade belt detonating at its feet without being pierced, or can walk through fire (or be set on fire, for that matter) without problems.
Basic grenades rely on shrapnel for effect, they're not particularly armor piercing. Likewise, fire kills through heat induction (though Space Marines obviously aren't completely immune to flamers obviously), and isn't having to penetrate armor. A space marine isn't immune to being doused in burning promethium and being cooked alive, just far more resistant to it than a naked unaugmented human.
Fire actually works quite well against a lot of armored things. Simple molotov cocktails have put large numbers of tanks out of action over the last 75 years. The armor doesn't get pierced, but the insides can be heated, crew get cooked alive or inhale smoke and suffer oxygen depletion, wires melt, engine parts overheat and break, ammunition cooks off, etc. Armor can protect for a time, especially if just passing through a wall of flame, but fire can and will kill even heavily armored things, particularly if covered in some sort of flammable material .
Orks are not only many like humans, they are also stronger and tougher. Even then, it's going to be a pretty damn tough prospect for normal boyz. You'd need their tech, Nobz...
Yes, they're stronger. They're also a lot clumsier and far more foolhardy. Yes, it's likely a daunting prospect for a single Ork. For a group of four or five acting together at close quarters, that doesn't sound like an auto-win for the Space Marine.
Most people wouldn't consider 5 Boyz against 1 basic tactical Space Marine an auto-win situation for the Space Marine, fluff realm or game realm.
It's not that illogical at all. Consider how much area you can actually cover with a hook, now consider their size, how packed the Guardsmen are, and the fact that they can't do anything at all to impede the trajectory of the blow.
find me some sort of realistic example and we'll talk. I can't even recall a fluff instance of a Space Marine hitting three guys with one punch.
My life is not without some training in this area. Having done some Boxing, several years of Wrestling, and currently doing twice a week Liechtenauer-based Longsword, I'd like to think I'm not completely inexperienced in such matters, even if I can't claim to be an MMA-class fighter or a military trainer hand-to-hand expert. The only situation in which I can envision this outside of the most absurd rarity of chances, is hitting one guy into a couple of others, assuming they're packing fairly tightly, but even that's really more of a Jackie-Chan movie-fu type thing.
Me thinks not.
Rippers have problems too, but that is mostly because of their size. Their teeth are still razor sharp. Scarabs have their entropic thingy that says feth you to armoured targets. Gaunts are extremely fast (Eldar-fast, though not as skilled) and lethal.
And a bayonet can't be sharp or have huge amounts of pressure put behind it? I've got knives that will slice better than any tooth ever evolved. A knife held in the hand will go through most soft-body armor of today, a knife propelled like a spear as a bayonet can pack an astounding amount of kinetic energy and will go through anything that isn't hard plate.
Scarabs have had a lot of different rules, the Entropic thing wasn't always there and there still wasn't the question that they could sometimes potentially kill Space Marines.
If teeth and claws and the like will do it, we must accept that blades and bayonets can do it too.
Yeah. Even if you somehow manage to bayonet a weak spot, you'll never get to fire in the same strike. SM also laugh off lasguns everywhere outside of the game.
We can probably assume it's not outside the realm of possibility that someone can pull a trigger when planting that bayonet. There's lots of examples of people being shot as they're being bayoneted (though it's often something of overkill in the case of a normal human).
It's also one thing for an SM to feel largely invulnerable to Lasguns in armor from a distance. It's another when a lasgun or autogun is attached to a bayonet that''s been planted into a weak spot and let off a burst of automatic fire through into the flesh. Even a Space Marine is going to feel that in a hard way. Lasguns have been described doing things bullets often do, severing limbs, exploding heads, etc.
Yeah, Space Marines are insanely tough. No, they're not invulnerable. If things like Genestealers, Tyranid Warriors, Daemons, Wracks, etc can be killed by Lasguns, Lasgun shots that get through armor certainly can kill Space Marines. .
Going back to the Elephant example, probably the biggest killer of Elephants in recent years has been the humble Kalashnikov. They're big, strong, tough, and they have thick hides, but automatic rifles will put them down real easily (and it's not like they need to dump multiple magazines worth of bullets in there either), much to the chagrin of conservationists and game wardens.
The most common situation I encounter where my bolters matter is when the Guardsmen are ~9" away, in open ground. There, it surely should not be so hard to hit and kill?
In a perfect reflection of the 40k universe, you're right, the guardsmen would be dead. You also wouldn't miss a Land Raider with a Meltagun at 2", and by the same token even a Space Marine would likely have a far lower chance than 1-in-12 (snapshot & jink save) chance to hit a blazing fast turbo-boosting jetbike jinking all over the place from a couple hundred meters away while on the move.
The game doesn't distinguish between all those insane long range shots you're making with regularity, and the embarrassing close range misses, it just lumps them all together.
But that's not an issue unique to the Imperial Guard or Space Marines, it's a facet of the game that affects *every* faction equally.
Where are those advanced descriptions explaining everything? In Forge World? Forge World's explanations make zero sense whatsoever - you have incredibly small bore Battle Cannons, every vehicle is slow, ground clearances do not match, and so on and so forth.
But FW is just as canon as anything else if we're assuming everything in BL is. That said, FW or no, ground clearances on most 40k Imperial vehicles are such that shopping mall speed bumps would stop many of them. Just looking at the Land Raider model I've got on my hobby desk here, it's got the ground clearance of a slightly lifted skateboard. A Leman Russ tank probably couldn't fit both the breach and the commander in the turret, much less a gunner and a loader.
Ultimately, we have to assume that Bolters, like many things in 40k, are not realistically functional weapons, and that the reasons they work is pretty much entirely "just because".
Why is it not tremendous? The strength difference, ability to absorb recoil and so on is.
Again, there might be a difference, but not enough of one to materially differentiate on any scale we care about.
Another example. Russian 7.62x54R is a powerful cartridge. That was the mainstay round from the 1890's to the 1950's of Russia and the Soviet Union. 7.62x39 is much less powerful, with much less recoil and kinetic energy (but far more controllable in automatic fire and you can carry a whole lot more of it).
That said, someone were shot with both, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, they would just have two great big bleeding holes and a lot of pain. The differences that you'd see would be at longer ranges (where only 5% or less of most combat is occurring), or if wearing a Level III vs a Level IV armor plate vest, though even that could be dependent on the ammo used. You can get into minutiae like "well, the x54R will more likely go through, leaving an exit wound as well while the x39 has a higher likelyhood of not", but that kind of thing is largely irrelevant at the scale we're talking about.
We can use another in-game example. An Auto-pistol is S3 and an Autogun is S3, despite portraying a typical automatic pistol and automatic rifle, usually with something akin to a 300% difference in kinetic energy between the two, they're not sufficiently far apart for the game to really care and categorize them differently.
RPG's where anything more than a 5 person group is huge, and combats that are over in 20 or 30 seconds in narrative time take two or three hours of real time, can afford to get into that sort of detail, hence why in FFG's RPG's a Space Marine bolter is 1D10 +8 Pen 4 and a human bolter is 1D10+5 Pen 4, but even that is a relatively small distinction next to gulf between either and a Lasgun at 1D10 +3 Pen 0.
When we're talking platoon and company level engagements on a D6 or even a D10 scale, these sorts of distinctions between human bolter and Space Marine bolter are just too small to make a difference, particularly when HP count is usually 1, and you're looking at either "is he out of the fight nor not".
Are you sure it was one of those tiny portable mortars and not one of the many, many artillery mortars? Could have been a Colossus Siege Mortar, for example.
Pretty sure. It's been a while since I've read it. It was from Storm of Iron, which is currently packed away in a box in another building like 40 feet away unfortunately right now for me. They distinctly referred to it as a Mortar however, not as artillery from what I recall. Either way, point still stands, if Bolters can kill Space Marines, certainly a direct hit from a far large explosive projectile can do it.
As said, we disregard plot armour.
I am okay with having the 40K game as an arcade-style game that doesn't make any sense, really, but not when the point of it is to be a story-driven game.
The problem is that most of the stories are written from a "superman-whiz-pow-bang" perspective, especially with Space Marines. While all factions are subject to this, Space Marine stuff suffers the most from it, and it needs to be understood that that's what it is, and should generally be read and accepted in the vein, either as amusing propaganda, embellished stylization, or
I mean, Space Marines can be cool, don't get me wrong. I've play Chaos Space Marines, I'm almost done building a Grey Knights army, and somehow I've managed to acquire probably 2500-3000pts of loyalist Space Marines without ever actually playing them or attempting to collect them. All told, between all the CSM/GK/SM stuff I own, I probably have as much Space Marine stuff as I have Imperial Guard stuff. But I've always assumed most stories about SM's were overdone for style purposes or were exceedingly rare feats of exceptional deeds even for the Space Marines and thus worthy of being written about, not just your average "everybattle".
Many things would need to be adjusted, not only Marines, hence why I included Nobz as an example. No, I do not say that Marines should walk off plasma gun hits without impediment. But yes, standard Orks should not have very good chances.
You'd need to be talking about an entirely different scale of game here, much more a Necromunda scale, and even then, a lot of that would still be coming more from armor saves than innate toughness. Flesh, no matter how hard and resilient, is not hard to damage.
Horus Rising and its sister novels False Gods and Galaxy in Flames has lots of interesting information on Space Marines. Aside from providing additional data on their size, it also shows that Marines are so much more than their wargear (the Auretian Technocracy who also wear Astartes-like PA and bolters get absolutely dominated by Astartes infantry) and it also explains that SM had an odd effect on humans they were fighting. Soldiers so large and so bulky moving so fast triggered some odd kind of extreme shock in the poor humans who could not believe such a thing was physically possible, and while I do not recall what the syndrome was called, it was still quite interesting to see just how far from our own reality the nature of warfare in 40k is.
I'll have to re-read the books, but most of the "shock", at least that I recall at least from other books (that I've read somewhat more recently than almost a decade ago ), is something extremely temporary, and while impressive, is not something that is going to stun them a second time aside from simply being understood, respected, and planned around.
I mean, as a normal human, I know there's some things that might temporarily stun me with their impressive speed and power, but I find it difficult to stomach that simply the sight of a Space Marine doing his thing is going to utterly paralyze all that look upon it, especially if they've seen it before, and for anything more than a very short timeframe. Our brains get bored too fast and fight/flight reaction kicks in. If charging elephants, battle tanks moving at highway speeds and accurate hitting moving targets a thousand meters distant, and all sorts of other things don't paralyze all who see such things, I just don't see Space Marines inflicting immobilizing shock for long periods of time against experienced combat troops.
And in most cases, it's just gak for the humans. Yes, the DA took a beating from the CSM at Vraks. It's grimdark in another way for them, though. They fight on well, but ultimately there is nothing the SM can do to stop the Imperium from falling - they are too few, and the enemies and the warzones are too many.
The problem is that that's never really portrayed in a lot of the SM fluff we're talking about, the always pull through the victory no matter the odds. And that makes sense, most people don't want to read books where the protagonist gets butchered, they want to read about the protagonist from their favorite faction emerging victorious in amazing glory. And that's fine, but it must be acknowledged as to what is really is.
That was actually a big part of why I liked Dead Men Walking, my favorite kind of Grimdark. They did their best, sacrificed enormously, and they still lost, most people still died, the protagonist did not get the girl and lost everything including his human self, and "victory" was wrought only through Exterminatus, while the rich and pampered were evacuated to live another day.. It's the kind of thing that routinely happens in the 40k universe, and is exactly what that opening passage in the 40k rulebook refers to ("an eternity of slaughter and thirsting gods, a man amongst untold billions, you will not be missed, etc) but that often is avoided in many books. Inquisition War was another one, where neither the inquisitor, the Imperial Fist, nor the Assassin end well.
Indeed, such as getting rekt by Chaos Marines.
I wish that would happen more often. Too often CSM's are just there to get killed like mooks.
To make it clear to you, I have issue with essentially the Tau being successful 'secular atheists' with no magical explanation - That's too artificial. Their belief does not carry any motivational substance (ultimate meaning) other than the shallow notion of 'just because'. Whenever a fiction makes this sort of culture effective in a grand scale, I tend to roll my eyes.
It doesn't work without magic. Tau 'space communism' (it's not really communism but let's call it that works mainly due to the omnipresence of Ethereals. Ethereals exert a level of influence on the other Tau castes that certainly looks magical. Their coming at Fio'taun simply has a couple of Ethereals walking in and convincing two armies that had beem fighting for years to become BFF overnight. There's also.another piece of fluff somewhere in the codex where a Tau commander defending a position against orks (?) sees his Fire Warriors become more brutal and aggressive, to which he concludes that all Ethereals on the planet have died. Even among the Ethereals consensus is not a given, hence the need for Honor Duels.
Regarding tech, as far as I know Tau have studied everything left behind by the Imperium after their evacuation from Da'lyth and have concluded most stuff except Warp engines to be inferior to their own
I would like to remove, space wolfes and imperial knights.
I wouldn't mind space wolfs to be just vikings in space, but wolf the amount of wolf theme is just way to much for me. Also why imperial knights are even a thing.
LordBlades wrote: It doesn't work without magic. Tau 'space communism' (it's not really communism but let's call it that works mainly due to the omnipresence of Ethereals. Ethereals exert a level of influence on the other Tau castes that certainly looks magical. Their coming at Fio'taun simply has a couple of Ethereals walking in and convincing two armies that had beem fighting for years to become BFF overnight. There's also.another piece of fluff somewhere in the codex where a Tau commander defending a position against orks (?) sees his Fire Warriors become more brutal and aggressive, to which he concludes that all Ethereals on the planet have died. Even among the Ethereals consensus is not a given, hence the need for Honor Duels.
I have a feeling a lot of the problems people seemingly have with Tau would have been solved if they had simply...you know...read the fething fluff.
But alas that's expecting too much from people anymore I guess, and it's entirely valid and reasonable to judge an army based on how it looks or what it's "catchphrase" is.
Vaktathi wrote: Even if we assume this, small groups of humans can and have quite frequently killed elephants with far more primitive weapons than automatic rifles with bayonets and hand grenades.
Not only are elephants slower and less skilled, they are also easier to wound (no armour) and you can bring larger numbers to bear against them.
Vaktathi wrote: Orks being able to have parts lopped off and re-attached to other orks, including heads? Orks taking multiple bolter shells, without armor, and still roving on? I know these have been portrayed multiple times. I don't have a whole lot of books on hand right here so can't go digging too much.
A starfish can survive if you cut off its limbs, it is still not more resilient than a Space Marine. Orks also die if you transplant their heads (though they live for a short time).
I mean, honestly, if all combatants are unarmed, the Marine could just lie down and take a nap and the Guardsmen can't do jack. They can punch and punch and it's like punching a metal plate - in fact, it is punching a metal plate! Or punching the soft armour, which is not going to go much better. Or try to jab their fingers into their eyesockets (try jabbing your index finger into the window next to you, glass is hard). Or try to rip off some cables on the backpack if you can reach it, which is going to be problematic for sure (assuming you actually can remove the tables without equipment), but won't actually kill him.
Vaktathi wrote: Truck is pretty vague, that can be anything from a Tacoma to an 18 wheeler
It was a pretty big truck. Let me find the citation.
page 196 Warriors of Ultramar wrote:“Did you see what that imbecile has done?” he snapped. “I did indeed, Mister van Gelder, and if you’ll just bear with us, we’ll get you on your way as soon as we can find some planks to put under the back wheels of this track and get it out of the mud.” “I want that wretched driver’s name so that I can be properly compensated upon my return to Tarsis Ultra.” “I assure you that I shall attend to the matter, sir,” soothed Satria. “Now, if you’ll just return to the lovely heated interior of your limousine, we’ll soon have you out of the city.” Before van Gelder could reply, a groan of metal sounded from behind the major. Satria turned to see Sergeant Learchus effortlessly lifting the back end of the fully laden truck from the sucking mud and push it forwards to more solid ground. The sergeant dropped the truck to the road and almost immediately it sped off to the spaceport. Satria had heard of the great strength of Space Marines, but had thought that most were overblown exaggerations. Now he knew better.
IIRC that truck contained several squads of Guardsmen.
Vaktathi wrote: This is where we have an issue. We're just assuming he can dodge any number of attacks any number of times from any number of directions. That's where it gets into the realm of absurdity, and we very clearly have Space Marines being killed by blows from far more clumsy creatures than trained human soldiers.
The idea that a Space Marine can just dodge everything from everywhere is the problem here, and it's a patently false idea.
He doesn't have to see each incoming strike and move out of the way from each. Consider the following: when dodging gunfire you just move away from where the enemy is aiming, not where he is firing. The Marine does this as well, as he sees faster, thinks faster and moves faster than his foes.
The second and more significant part is that he has no need to Matrix-style dodge each attack. He can just pick a direction and dodge in that direction, changing direction next time he dodges. Most strikes will miss as he is no longer where they aimed, and one or two (more if packed) enemies will get a dodging Marine crushing them! Ouch!
Vaktathi wrote: Ganging up is a huge advantage, which humans have used throughout history to kill far larger, stronger, tougher, and deadlier creatures than themselves, with exceedingly primitive weapons. It works. If we're just handwaving that way then nothing in the 40k setting is going to feel right on the table.
It's not a huge advantage because if you are many enough to take him on, you are many enough to get in each other's way.
Vaktathi wrote: Again, if we're just going to assume the Space Marine can always dodge every attack, no matter how simultaneous or multi-vector strikes may be, then there is no way to make a functional game involving space marines that will not break your immersion.
As said, they can't stop him from dodging (that is, attempting to impede the path of his dodge is folly). To be honest, he could just trample them and they could do little to stop that.
Vaktathi wrote: Basic grenades rely on shrapnel for effect, they're not particularly armor piercing. Likewise, fire kills through heat induction (though Space Marines obviously aren't completely immune to flamers obviously), and isn't having to penetrate armor. A space marine isn't immune to being doused in burning promethium and being cooked alive, just far more resistant to it than a naked unaugmented human.
Fire actually works quite well against a lot of armored things. Simple molotov cocktails have put large numbers of tanks out of action over the last 75 years. The armor doesn't get pierced, but the insides can be heated, crew get cooked alive or inhale smoke and suffer oxygen depletion, wires melt, engine parts overheat and break, ammunition cooks off, etc. Armor can protect for a time, especially if just passing through a wall of flame, but fire can and will kill even heavily armored things, particularly if covered in some sort of flammable material .
I have plenty of examples of Marines literally being set on fire and shrugging it off, or walking through a blazing inferno and shrugging that off too. Fire does not seem threatening to them (outside the Ultramarines movie...)
Vaktathi wrote: Yes, they're stronger. They're also a lot clumsier and far more foolhardy. Yes, it's likely a daunting prospect for a single Ork. For a group of four or five acting together at close quarters, that doesn't sound like an auto-win for the Space Marine.
As far as I know, Orks being 'clumsy' is mostly found in Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and similar propaganda. Everywhere else I have seen, they are quite similar to humans in speed, and very vicious.
Vaktathi wrote: Most people wouldn't consider 5 Boyz against 1 basic tactical Space Marine an auto-win situation for the Space Marine, fluff realm or game realm.
Funny anecdote, last time I played solo Exterminatus in Space Marine, my Chaos Raptor killed over a thousand orks alone before going down to a couple of Nobz. I did not even play a named character, I played one of those goons you play in MP. Hell, it was even a Chaos Marine, so he is wearing negative plot armour!
I even have video evidence
Vaktathi wrote: find me some sort of realistic example and we'll talk. I can't even recall a fluff instance of a Space Marine hitting three guys with one punch.
My life is not without some training in this area. Having done some Boxing, several years of Wrestling, and currently doing twice a week Liechtenauer-based Longsword, I'd like to think I'm not completely inexperienced in such matters, even if I can't claim to be an MMA-class fighter or a military trainer hand-to-hand expert. The only situation in which I can envision this outside of the most absurd rarity of chances, is hitting one guy into a couple of others, assuming they're packing fairly tightly, but even that's really more of a Jackie-Chan movie-fu type thing.
I have quite some experience with martial arts myself, and I can safely say that none of us have experiences with superhuman giants in massive armour fighting in melee.
I do not have any real life examples to provide has I have never seen a Space Marine fight in real life, all I can say that as far as I am concerned it is not out of the realm of plausibility.
Vaktathi wrote: And a bayonet can't be sharp or have huge amounts of pressure put behind it? I've got knives that will slice better than any tooth ever evolved. A knife held in the hand will go through most soft-body armor of today, a knife propelled like a spear as a bayonet can pack an astounding amount of kinetic energy and will go through anything that isn't hard plate.
Evidently, natural weapons are superior to unpowered, undemonic, non-xenos melee weapons in 40k. Look at what Genestealer claws can do, and then show me a mundane melee weapon in 40k capable of doing the same.
It's also one thing for an SM to feel largely invulnerable to Lasguns in armor from a distance. It's another when a lasgun or autogun is attached to a bayonet that''s been planted into a weak spot and let off a burst of automatic fire through into the flesh. Even a Space Marine is going to feel that in a hard way. Lasguns have been described doing things bullets often do, severing limbs, exploding heads, etc.
But lasguns have no real penetration ability whatsoever. If someone is in armour, even if you shoot at the softish bits, you're going to scorch the armour, but the guy inside still won't be hit.
Vaktathi wrote: RPG's where anything more than a 5 person group is huge, and combats that are over in 20 or 30 seconds in narrative time take two or three hours of real time, can afford to get into that sort of detail, hence why in FFG's RPG's a Space Marine bolter is 1D10 +8 Pen 4 and a human bolter is 1D10+5 Pen 4, but even that is a relatively small distinction next to gulf between either and a Lasgun at 1D10 +3 Pen 0.
To my knowledge, a SM bolter is 2d10+5 pen 4-5ish and tearing? Before they nerfed it, anyway (I agree that RF became too powerful, but it was easier to just disable RF on the tearing dice...).
Vaktathi wrote: When we're talking platoon and company level engagements on a D6 or even a D10 scale, these sorts of distinctions between human bolter and Space Marine bolter are just too small to make a difference, particularly when HP count is usually 1, and you're looking at either "is he out of the fight nor not".
It does make a difference anyway, but it's not going to be a pleasant result either way as the game can't contain it.
Vaktathi wrote: The problem is that most of the stories are written from a "superman-whiz-pow-bang" perspective, especially with Space Marines. While all factions are subject to this, Space Marine stuff suffers the most from it, and it needs to be understood that that's what it is, and should generally be read and accepted in the vein, either as amusing propaganda, embellished stylization, or
I mean, Space Marines can be cool, don't get me wrong. I've play Chaos Space Marines, I'm almost done building a Grey Knights army, and somehow I've managed to acquire probably 2500-3000pts of loyalist Space Marines without ever actually playing them or attempting to collect them. All told, between all the CSM/GK/SM stuff I own, I probably have as much Space Marine stuff as I have Imperial Guard stuff. But I've always assumed most stories about SM's were overdone for style purposes or were exceedingly rare feats of exceptional deeds even for the Space Marines and thus worthy of being written about, not just your average "everybattle".
Well yeah, but some stories (UM books) are more long-term instead of one-offs, and thus feel like more reliable feats instead of special ones.
Vaktathi wrote: You'd need to be talking about an entirely different scale of game here, much more a Necromunda scale, and even then, a lot of that would still be coming more from armor saves than innate toughness. Flesh, no matter how hard and resilient, is not hard to damage.
Is that Tyranid bio-monstrosities I see waving frantically?
Vaktathi wrote: I wish that would happen more often. Too often CSM's are just there to get killed like mooks.
Everything I argue for loyalists also apply to traitors, often even more so due to the whole VOTLW thing!
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, honestly, if all combatants are unarmed, the Marine could just lie down and take a nap and the Guardsmen can't do jack. They can punch and punch and it's like punching a metal plate - in fact, it is punching a metal plate! Or punching the soft armour, which is not going to go much better. Or try to jab their fingers into their eyesockets (try jabbing your index finger into the window next to you, glass is hard). Or try to rip off some cables on the backpack if you can reach it, which is going to be problematic for sure (assuming you actually can remove the tables without equipment), but won't actually kill him.
I hack the armor. Now the marine is my puppet! I make him punch himself in the face! I put the thing that recycles the marine urine and feces into reverse mode! I expose his most shameful internet browsing history to the world! Yes, that one. No amount of purity seals is going to save you from that!
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Ashiraya wrote: Well yeah, but some stories (UM books) are more long-term instead of one-offs, and thus feel like more reliable feats instead of special ones.
Do you mean like the whole Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM series? Cannot beat the HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, honestly, if all combatants are unarmed, the Marine could just lie down and take a nap and the Guardsmen can't do jack. They can punch and punch and it's like punching a metal plate - in fact, it is punching a metal plate! Or punching the soft armour, which is not going to go much better. Or try to jab their fingers into their eyesockets (try jabbing your index finger into the window next to you, glass is hard). Or try to rip off some cables on the backpack if you can reach it, which is going to be problematic for sure (assuming you actually can remove the tables without equipment), but won't actually kill him.
I hack the armor. Now the marine is my puppet! I make him punch himself in the face! I put the thing that recycles the marine urine and feces into reverse mode! I expose his most shameful internet browsing history to the world! Yes, that one. No amount of purity seals is going to save you from that!
Ashiraya wrote: But lasguns have no real penetration ability whatsoever. If someone is in armour, even if you shoot at the softish bits, you're going to scorch the armour, but the guy inside still won't be hit.
Are we talking about that weapon that use the same technology as the laser canon ? That anti-tank weapon? Designed to pop tank open? Like, armor?
I am surprised that they have no penetration ability, then.
I can do that in that game? For realz? What is the in-game effect of sharing the shameful browsing of someone? Do they get instantly evicted from their band and become an outcast ?
I would not advocate for the destruction of any team. In fact, I would be for new ones to appear and most to receive more developpement. Imperial Knights need little brother and sisters, Maybe they could be faulded in an Adpetus Mechanicus codex? I would like Tempestus Scions to become fully independant (codex wise) from the Imperial Guard. We could use with more development for the Chaos Space Marines who seems to lack their loyalist cousins versatility and choice range. We would need a little bit more from the Harlequins Codex to make them also independant. I would like a Lost and Damned Codex, not just a Forge World list (in fact I even made my own a few weeks back). I would like more Necrons, Tau and Sisters. There is so much stuff you can do with those armies both in fluff and models. I would like to see a Imperial Militia army for some rabble, gangsters, Frateris Militia and Arbites. I would like Tyranids to include the geenstealer cult completly. I want Gretchin stuff like tanks or snipers, a bit of communist joke. I want new Xenos armies with all sort of nice design. All in all, it seems idiotic to me to dump a faction especially for gameplay reason (that's a thing that can change or be modified very easily).
Have to agree with Ashiraya on this one. As much as I like my guardsmen they aren't going to do much in melee against an enemy that can just stand there and ignore them as their punches do more damage to their own fists than to his armor. The fact that guardsmen/fire warriors/etc in anything less than overwhelming numbers (sending a whole platoon against a single tactical marine, for example, and even then it's the grenades and lasguns that are probably doing most of the damage) is the result of the broken WS mechanic which limits to-hit rolls to a 3+ or 4+ and having a D6 system where a 1 always fails and a 6 always succeeds.
However, this isn't a very significant problem since guardsmen shouldn't be punching things to death anyway. A marine might be nearly invulnerable to bayonet stabs but an average war involving the IG has a few million melta/plasma gunners for every space marine. And that's not counting the tanks/artillery/air strikes/etc.
Ashiraya wrote: Is that Tyranid bio-monstrosities I see waving frantically?
Unfortunately, yes. It's best to just ignore them and pretend that bit of stupid fluff never existed.
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epronovost wrote: In fact, I would be for new ones to appear and most to receive more developpement.
**** no. GW can't even manage to write a decent game with the armies they already have, the last thing they need to be doing is adding even more rules that they won't be able to keep up with.
Peregrine wrote: Unfortunately, yes. It's best to just ignore them and pretend that bit of stupid fluff never existed.
But Ogryns, then?
And things like this?
Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim's face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour, but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a Primarch. - Fulgrim, pg. 384
I think they write a decent game right now else I wouldn't play it let alone discuss with a perfect stranger about it. It has it's flaws, loops and minor issues, but it's rather easy to tweak to your needs.The number of armies or tools is irrelevant to game balance at this point. The Space Marines alone have more unit choices than some game system entire roster of factions combined. We could add 50 new units and three new factions tomorrow and the game would be just fine. Most of the whine would still be their about the same things.
PS: about the Tyranid thing, comparing a mammal anathomy (the Space Marine) to some sort of unknown giant arthropode (the Tyranid Monstrous Creature) is a huge mistake in my opinion. Would you compare your capacity to hold your breath with a oak tree? Those kind of comparison are a bit dishonest in my opinion.
Peregrine wrote: Have to agree with Ashiraya on this one. As much as I like my guardsmen they aren't going to do much in melee against an enemy that can just stand there and ignore them as their punches do more damage to their own fists than to his armor. The fact that guardsmen/fire warriors/etc in anything less than overwhelming numbers (sending a whole platoon against a single tactical marine, for example, and even then it's the grenades and lasguns that are probably doing most of the damage) is the result of the broken WS mechanic which limits to-hit rolls to a 3+ or 4+ and having a D6 system where a 1 always fails and a 6 always succeeds.
Yeah. Melee being so common does not help. My own CSM army is built around it.
However, this isn't a very significant problem since guardsmen shouldn't be punching things to death anyway. A marine might be nearly invulnerable to bayonet stabs but an average war involving the IG has a few million melta/plasma gunners for every space marine. And that's not counting the tanks/artillery/air strikes/etc.
You know, I have always wondered how they can afford putting so much investment into each Marine yet can't afford a plasma gun for each guy.
I mean, if they can give it to a guardsman, surely it won't be too expensive for every Space Marine? A million plasma guns should not be too much of a bother to make.
LordBlades wrote: It doesn't work without magic. Tau 'space communism' (it's not really communism but let's call it that works mainly due to the omnipresence of Ethereals. Ethereals exert a level of influence on the other Tau castes that certainly looks magical. Their coming at Fio'taun simply has a couple of Ethereals walking in and convincing two armies that had beem fighting for years to become BFF overnight. There's also.another piece of fluff somewhere in the codex where a Tau commander defending a position against orks (?) sees his Fire Warriors become more brutal and aggressive, to which he concludes that all Ethereals on the planet have died. Even among the Ethereals consensus is not a given, hence the need for Honor Duels.
I have a feeling a lot of the problems people seemingly have with Tau would have been solved if they had simply...you know...read the fething fluff.
But alas that's expecting too much from people anymore I guess, and it's entirely valid and reasonable to judge an army based on how it looks or what it's "catchphrase" is.
That's one half, the other half is reading the fething rules, because half the rules complaints I've had against tau are about things that do not exist, never existed or do not work remotely as the person complaining describes.
Seriously, tau somehow manages to be the most hated faction, despite the fact the haters seems to often know nothing about them in fluff or rules.
Well, except knights. but people only hate them because of the "ew, its big" reaction some people still get.
Not only are elephants slower and less skilled, they are also easier to wound (no armour) and you can bring larger numbers to bear against them.
Elephants can be pretty amazingly fast. That said, sure they're not as skilled and what not, but they're also probably able to exert a whole lot more force when they do connect through simple mass. Either way, ultimately the point is that numbers can overwhelm a powerful but singular opponent, often without needing to gigantically overwhelm them.
A starfish can survive if you cut off its limbs, it is still not more resilient than a Space Marine.
That's a factor of scale at that point. Orks are pretty much on the same scale as Space Marines.
I mean, honestly, if all combatants are unarmed, the Marine could just lie down and take a nap and the Guardsmen can't do jack. They can punch and punch and it's like punching a metal plate - in fact, it is punching a metal plate! Or punching the soft armour, which is not going to go much better.
This is where it's getting absolutely ridiculous again.
We're assuming that the soft areas are nearly as inviolate as the hard armor, which we know is not true, we have all sorts of art and fluff portraying this being defeated by relatively primitive weapons. LIkewise, if the SM is just lying down, how mentally deficient are we assuming these Guardsmen are if we're assuming they're just going to whack at the hard plate?
Or try to jab their fingers into their eyesockets (try jabbing your index finger into the window next to you, glass is hard)
I don't think anybody iis going to be shoving fingers to a Space Marine's helmet eye sockets. They might try a bayonet though, I can break a window with that.
. Or try to rip off some cables on the backpack if you can reach it which is going to be problematic for sure (assuming you actually can remove the tables without equipment), but won't actually kill him.
Assuming there's 4-5 of them? Someone getting to the backpack isn't a huge issue unless we're talking an enclosed space where they're all approaching from the fornt. The backpack also has other vulnerabilities, heat vents, access ports, etc that can all be exceedingly vulnerable. It's probably the most vulnerable aspect (and is basically never mentioned in most fluff), being the hardest place for an SM to defend on top of powering his armor and having gigantic vulnerabilities.
It was a pretty big truck. Let me find the citation.
page 196 Warriors of Ultramar wrote:“Did you see what that imbecile has done?” he snapped. “I did indeed, Mister van Gelder, and if you’ll just bear with us, we’ll get you on your way as soon as we can find some planks to put under the back wheels of this track and get it out of the mud.”
“I want that wretched driver’s name so that I can be properly compensated upon my return to Tarsis Ultra.”
“I assure you that I shall attend to the matter, sir,” soothed Satria. “Now, if you’ll just return to the lovely heated interior of your limousine, we’ll soon have you out of the city.”
Before van Gelder could reply, a groan of metal sounded from behind the major. Satria turned to see Sergeant Learchus effortlessly lifting the back end of the fully laden truck from the sucking mud and push it forwards to more solid ground. The sergeant dropped the truck to the road and almost immediately it sped off to the spaceport.
Satria had heard of the great strength of Space Marines, but had thought that most were overblown exaggerations. Now he knew better.
IIRC that truck contained several squads of Guardsmen.
And, while impressive, it's not beyond the strength of many creatures on earth today that humans have successfully killed in very close quarter engagements. A Gorilla or Elephant can probably do something like that.
He doesn't have to see each incoming strike and move out of the way from each.
He has to be aware of a strike coming somehow, we can't just assume he'll automatically know when and where every blow is going to come from.
Consider the following: when dodging gunfire you just move away from where the enemy is aiming, not where he is firing.
The concept of dodging gunfire is rather suspect, you don't really dodge bullets. Dodging a paintball at close ranges is beyond human capabilities (even if they're 50 feet away, when you see the shot fired, you've got 1/6th of a second to register that, react to it, and moved out of the way before it impacts), dodging a bullet moving 3-10x as fast is beyond superhuman capabilities. You don't really dodge bullets, you reduce the probability of a hit by minimizing your visibility.
If being shot at, in a combat situation, very often you can't tell exactly where the shooter is. Even when you can, you won't really be able to tell exactly where they're aiming as long as that barrel is point in your general direction. If you're any meaningful distance away (largely anything beyond a couple of meters or so), you won't be able to tell if they're leading you, trailing you, or dead on, the minute differences in angle are simply impossible to determine just from looking at their gun, and that's assuming you can accurately visually distinguish the gun barrel.
Unless they're leading with automatic fire and stitching a line in the dirt or have some sort of other visual identifier, you're relying on simply being hard to hit, which is something different altogether.
With regards to a melee blow, there are a ton of blows that can be thrown or blade moves that can be done that can be redirected or intentionally misguiding. With a Longsword, if I'm throwing a blow from the shoulder, typically that'll look like an overhead descending strike to the opposing shoulder, but by the time I'm halfway into it I can change that into a Zwerchhau blow to the head or neck from a horizontal plane, or rotate my wrists out and under and turn it into and ascending blow from below into the ribs or armpit. Trying to react to that without seeing it as its happening, or as several other guys are doing the same thing, would be impossible.
The Marine does this as well, as he sees faster, thinks faster and moves faster than his foes.
There's relatively little to prove that a Space Marine is mentally simply faster than others, particularly without additional augmentation. They get psycho-indoctrinated with tons of knowledge (though knowledge and ability to use that knowledge are two different things), but we've also had some pretty amazingly simple Space Marines. In some places *some* are portrayed as super geniuses, in others not so much. That's a very suspect and contradictory aspect.
The idea that he'd just know where to be and avoid multiple repeated simultaneous blows from several different vectors, particularly being 7 feet tall and probably four or five feet wide, without any sort of sensory input, is a bit silly even for Space Marines.
If such were the case, they wouldn't need armor. They also wouldn't get hit by things like Orks, yet they do.
The second and more significant part is that he has no need to Matrix-style dodge each attack. He can just pick a direction and dodge in that direction, changing direction next time he dodges. Most strikes will miss as he is no longer where they aimed, and one or two (more if packed) enemies will get a dodging Marine crushing them! Ouch!
How far is this marine dancing around? How does he always have a direction in which he can move without facing a bayonet, grenade, or lasgun muzzle? Why are we assuming that the Guardsmen cannot possibly compensate for movement either (likely not as well as the SM can, but they're not complete automatons either)? Again, it also must be kept in mind that their target is *huge* and by simple dint of that fact not exactly impossible to hit.
If Orks can do it, not seeing why Guardsmen can't.
It's not a huge advantage because if you are many enough to take him on, you are many enough to get in each other's way.
By what standard?
As said, they can't stop him from dodging (that is, attempting to impede the path of his dodge is folly). To be honest, he could just trample them and they could do little to stop that.
He could try all of those things, and there are openings and counters to each of them for trained soldiers. But again, it's missing the point in that if we're assuming that the Space Marine is just so incredibly powerful that he can overpower anything or dodge anything and whatnot, there is no game that will not break your immersion. There's no way around that.
I have plenty of examples of Marines literally being set on fire and shrugging it off, or walking through a blazing inferno and shrugging that off too. Fire does not seem threatening to them (outside the Ultramarines movie...)
Yeah, walking through fire is one thing, being on fire for an extended period of time is another, which is what I was getting at above. Is it *harder* to kill them with fire than ordinary humans? Sure, absolutely, much more so. But Space Marines die to flame weapons all the time. The Sisters bring cleansing fire to the Heretic traitor Marines, the Grey Knights bring Incincerators against Daemons and Traitors, the Salamanders will bring flamers to dreadful use against other power armored foes. Space Marines aren't immune to flame, just much more resistant to it.
I'd imagine a Space Marine taking a direct burst from a Burna or flamer won't end well for him. If it's just lightly washed over him or he's just within a couple feet that would ordinarily scorch an unarmored human badly, he's probably fine. In game terms, this largely means that only 1 marines dies to a flamer for every 4 guardsmen that do. and in that respect, that's mighty impressive and shouldn't be immersion breaking.
As far as I know, Orks being 'clumsy' is mostly found in Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and similar propaganda. Everywhere else I have seen, they are quite similar to humans in speed, and very vicious.
Yes they are vicious, but that doesn't mean they can't be clumsy or hamfisted, in every depiction they throw big heavy "i can see that coming form a mile away" blows. If they connect, that's bad, but it means you have more chance to get your own attack or block in before that. Hence why Orks are I2 in game terms.
Funny anecdote, last time I played solo Exterminatus in Space Marine, my Chaos Raptor killed over a thousand orks alone before going down to a couple of Nobz. I did not even play a named character, I played one of those goons you play in MP. Hell, it was even a Chaos Marine, so he is wearing negative plot armour!
I even have video evidence
Well, yes, you kill a lot of stuff in Space Marine
Though, at the same time, the biggest, meanest, nastiest thing in the game was also probably the easiest and most trivial thing to defeat (seriously his body guards were way harder to kill than the orchestrated button mash that was the Nemeroth fight), and your single SM captain has probably killed a company's worth of Traitor marines or more over the course of the game.
I have quite some experience with martial arts myself, and I can safely say that none of us have experiences with superhuman giants in massive armour fighting in melee.
True, but again, even with a huge arm reach, a hook hitting three guys at once is more movie-fu than anything else.
I do not have any real life examples to provide has I have never seen a Space Marine fight in real life, all I can say that as far as I am concerned it is not out of the realm of plausibility.
I would say it is, even if you had the reach (assuming a much larger reach than any human), you'd need all three bunched up insanely tightly and standing *just so* in order to connect. Unless you're in a cramped hallway with everyone to the front all trying to do the exact same thing at the same time and squishing each other Oreo-style, I find that very difficult to see.
Even with a Longsword, sporting a 4 foot blade unless they're packed *very* tight and have zero ability to block or evade (not simply diminished due to superior speed, but practically zero), I don't really see hitting three enemies at once, especially not with meaningful blows.
Evidently, natural weapons are superior to unpowered, undemonic, non-xenos melee weapons in 40k. Look at what Genestealer claws can do, and then show me a mundane melee weapon in 40k capable of doing the same.
Genestealers are described as having immense strength which augments the power of their claws (their rules have also changed over time between ASM's in 2E, being straight power-weapons, to Rending on 6's to Hit, to Rending on 6's to Wound), but we don't need to look at Genestealers when much smaller creatures (who don't have any such specialties) have been portrayed as finding and exploiting weaknesses in Space Marine armor.
But lasguns have no real penetration ability whatsoever. If someone is in armour, even if you shoot at the softish bits, you're going to scorch the armour, but the guy inside still won't be hit.
Neither do bayonets, claws, teeth, Choppas, etc. If they can penetrate, we can probably assume Lasguns can. AP- doesn't mean "literally can never penetrate anything", it means that any meaningful armor at least has *some* chance, to protect, even if it's by deflection rather than absorption. If they can explode a skull, they can probably get through the soft areas of a Space Marines armor.
Lasguns are described as having an explosion effect upon hitting the target, if so, there's no reason they couldn't get through soft areas that likely can't even be considered armored. That said, here's where stuff starts to get silly again. Much like Bolters, lasguns basically don't operate in 40k by any realistic standard. They tend to operate on the Star Wars principle of laser weapons, with a visible beam that you can actually see travel (as if it's firing at bullet speeds) and has a seemingly kinetic effect. This is rather absurd, just as absurd as Bolters. More realistic laser weapons you'd never really see the beam, and any explosive effect you'd get would be from heat combustion of the material you're hitting and not the laser itself. You could also effectively keep a laser beam on target for several seconds and burn right through something. Either way, they're just as silly as Bolters.
That said, we have a more realistic standard to compare with here. Autoguns, which are identical to weapons we have today and share the Lasgun's statline in almost every iteration I can think of. As autoguns are pretty identical to modern assault rifles and battle rifles (in the Siege of Vraks book they particularly point out a caliber that would roughly equate to a battle rifle). You can put rounds from something like that through quite a lot of metal. Even non-AP ammo from something like a 5.56 or 5.45 can often penetrate a 7mm steel plate. Black tip 308 or 30-06 through a Battle Rifle can go through up to 25mm+ of steel plate, or 8mm of specially hardened ballistic armor.
I would not assume that all the soft areas on a Space Marine can be equated with even the 7mm steel plate, particularly not if things like Gaunt claws, Choppas, etc can get through.
Ergo, if we're assuming a lasgun is largely interchangable with a modern assault rifle, it shouldn't have any issues getting through the soft areas of a Space Marine's armor.
To my knowledge, a SM bolter is 2d10+5 pen 4-5ish and tearing? Before they nerfed it, anyway (I agree that RF became too powerful, but it was easier to just disable RF on the tearing dice...).
Yeah, they no longer have that statline. That statline also put them above even vehicle-mounted Heavy Bolters from something like Rogue Trader (2D10+2 Pen 5) and even without RF was roughly on par or better than most of the Plasma weapons from its own book (A Plasma Gun being 1D10+9 Pen8 with no Tearing).
It was just too over the top any way you sliced it, and nobody was bothering with the other guns
It does make a difference anyway, but it's not going to be a pleasant result either way as the game can't contain it.
It's not something that would matter at the scale we're concerned with. Even in a scale where you're only running a party of 3-5 guys, when we're talking Tearing weapons that get 2 dice for damage to pick from, and a grand total of 3 as the difference in damage, against stuff like 10 HP mook Guardsmen, that's only going to matter what, once out of every seven or so hits to put them into Critical HP (what I usually consider "dead" or not for W1 40k units)? That's enough to kinda notice at that scale. It's not enough to care about on a company level scale.
Well yeah, but some stories (UM books) are more long-term instead of one-offs, and thus feel like more reliable feats instead of special ones.
Haven't read all of those so can't comment, I've only read Dead Sky Black Sun.(which was mostly SM vs CSM or CSM vs CSM anyway).
d
Is that Tyranid bio-monstrosities I see waving frantically?
They're huge. That's what makes them hard to kill, not the innate toughness of their flesh aside from the chitonous armor.
Everything I argue for loyalists also apply to traitors, often even more so due to the whole VOTLW thing!
It'd be nice to see the CSM's get better treatment, though that said, at the rate at which they're usually defeated and killed, they should all have been dead looooong ago
However, having the patronage of gods from a literal dimension of unreality, and often inhabiting that realm, it does make it easier to accept some ridiculous things with them
I have a little point to bring up, pulse weapons have been known to pierce the eyepieces on TDA. I see no reason why a bayonet or lasgun couldn't pierce the eyepiece on PA.
Vaktathi wrote: This is where it's getting absolutely ridiculous again.
We're assuming that the soft areas are nearly as inviolate as the hard armor, which we know is not true, we have all sorts of art and fluff portraying this being defeated by relatively primitive weapons. LIkewise, if the SM is just lying down, how mentally deficient are we assuming these Guardsmen are if we're assuming they're just going to whack at the hard plate?
I don't think anybody iis going to be shoving fingers to a Space Marine's helmet eye sockets. They might try a bayonet though, I can break a window with that.
Assuming there's 4-5 of them? Someone getting to the backpack isn't a huge issue unless we're talking an enclosed space where they're all approaching from the fornt. The backpack also has other vulnerabilities, heat vents, access ports, etc that can all be exceedingly vulnerable. It's probably the most vulnerable aspect (and is basically never mentioned in most fluff), being the hardest place for an SM to defend on top of powering his armor and having gigantic vulnerabilities.
I did say 'assuming they are unarmed!'
I do not think you can actually fit the bayonet into the eyesocket anyway, but you could probably slice off a cable with a little work. Unfortunately, you're not going to have the time for 'a little work' in a swirling melee.
Vaktathi wrote: And, while impressive, it's not beyond the strength of many creatures on earth today that humans have successfully killed in very close quarter engagements. A Gorilla or Elephant can probably do something like that.
But can they do it with the superhuman speed, skill and control that the Astartes have?
Vaktathi wrote: He has to be aware of a strike coming somehow, we can't just assume he'll automatically know when and where every blow is going to come from.
No, he just has to stay in motion.
Vaktathi wrote: There's relatively little to prove that a Space Marine is mentally simply faster than others, particularly without additional augmentation. They get psycho-indoctrinated with tons of knowledge (though knowledge and ability to use that knowledge are two different things), but we've also had some pretty amazingly simple Space Marines. In some places *some* are portrayed as super geniuses, in others not so much. That's a very suspect and contradictory aspect.
Marines are explicitly 'superior in every aspect' to humans. This includes reaction speeds and intelligence. We have plenty of examples of both, especially reaction speeds (some of which go into nanosecond territory).
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that he'd just know where to be and avoid multiple repeated simultaneous blows from several different vectors, particularly being 7 feet tall and probably four or five feet wide, without any sort of sensory input, is a bit silly even for Space Marines.
7 feet being the low end. BL said eight, and it varies generally. I go with nine, although for the sake of the argument I am willing to assume seven. Anyway, autosenses exist, you know.
Vaktathi wrote: If such were the case, they wouldn't need armor. They also wouldn't get hit by things like Orks, yet they do.
Most of the cases, plot armour.
Vaktathi wrote: How far is this marine dancing around? How does he always have a direction in which he can move without facing a bayonet, grenade, or lasgun muzzle? Why are we assuming that the Guardsmen cannot possibly compensate for movement either (likely not as well as the SM can, but they're not complete automatons either)? Again, it also must be kept in mind that their target is *huge* and by simple dint of that fact not exactly impossible to hit.
Why does he care if it's a bayonette there? If he leaps in its direction, the force with which the Guardsman is holding it is going to be less than the force needed for it to penetrate his armour, so he will push away the bayonet. Grenades do nothing, as explained (and if they had a grenade ready to detonate, then they would blow up themselves if he decided to jump in another direction!), and the lasgun too is going to do little.
Vaktathi wrote: He could try all of those things, and there are openings and counters to each of them for trained soldiers.
What are they going to do, exactly? Shoot him and die a second later as the shot inflicts minimal damage at best? Hold out your bayonet and hope that that will be enough to stop his charge? Try to dodge even though he is way faster than they could ever hope to be?
Vaktathi wrote: But again, it's missing the point in that if we're assuming that the Space Marine is just so incredibly powerful that he can overpower anything or dodge anything and whatnot, there is no game that will not break your immersion. There's no way around that.
I dunno, I play 40KRPGs with my friends almost every week and it's absolutely fine. Had to make a few changes (+2 AP to all SM armour, starting stats increased to 40+2d10, sprint is baseline, the tearing dice on bolters can't trigger RF, et cetera ad nauseam) but otherwise it is quite immersive.
Vaktathi wrote: Yes they are vicious, but that doesn't mean they can't be clumsy or hamfisted, in every depiction they throw big heavy "i can see that coming form a mile away" blows. If they connect, that's bad, but it means you have more chance to get your own attack or block in before that. Hence why Orks are I2 in game terms.
Game terms are irrelevant. From what I can see, their advantage comes from combining numbers with being very tough, strong and solid - something IG can't do.
Vaktathi wrote: Though, at the same time, the biggest, meanest, nastiest thing in the game was also probably the easiest and most trivial thing to defeat (seriously his body guards were way harder to kill than the orchestrated button mash that was the Nemeroth fight), and your single SM captain has probably killed a company's worth of Traitor marines or more over the course of the game.
Titus had plot armour, at least in the DP fight. The dog-standard Marines, arguably less so.
Vaktathi wrote: True, but again, even with a huge arm reach, a hook hitting three guys at once is more movie-fu than anything else.
I am not sure. Proper full-body swing, ensuring to swing with your hips and turn your body and not just throw your arm around, and being that large. Should work.
Vaktathi wrote: Even with a Longsword, sporting a 4 foot blade unless they're packed *very* tight and have zero ability to block or evade (not simply diminished due to superior speed, but practically zero), I don't really see hitting three enemies at once, especially not with meaningful blows.
The thing is that you don't have a fraction of the force behind your sword compared to what he has behind his fist. He can punch 'through' the enemy without it affecting its trajectory.
Vaktathi wrote: Genestealers are described as having immense strength which augments the power of their claws (their rules have also changed over time between ASM's in 2E, being straight power-weapons, to Rending on 6's to Hit, to Rending on 6's to Wound), but we don't need to look at Genestealers when much smaller creatures (who don't have any such specialties) have been portrayed as finding and exploiting weaknesses in Space Marine armor.
What genestealers do is to provide evidence of Tyranid melee weaponry being far sharper than any biologically produced weapon could be in real life, also explaining how they can slice armour so well.
Vaktathi wrote: Neither do bayonets, claws, teeth, Choppas, etc. If they can penetrate, we can probably assume Lasguns can. AP- doesn't mean "literally can never penetrate anything", it means that any meaningful armor at least has *some* chance, to protect, even if it's by deflection rather than absorption. If they can explode a skull, they can probably get through the soft areas of a Space Marines armor.
I disagree. Lasguns deal damage by burning/exploding (depending on source) the surface area of the target. It's going to be highly ineffective against any type of armour - remember that even 'soft' armour is very thick indeed.
Vaktathi wrote: I would not assume that all the soft areas on a Space Marine can be equated with even the 7mm steel plate, particularly not if things like Gaunt claws, Choppas, etc can get through.
I would, although not in the same way. I'd compare it to steel versus graphene - a relatively thin layer of graphene is easier to bend but also harder to penetrate than steel. PA seems to be designed by a similar material, although likely not specifically graphene!
Choppas are delivered by the arm of orks, stronger than any man, and even then they are not really that threatening to normal Marines outside of the tabletop game.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, they no longer have that statline. That statline also put them above even vehicle-mounted Heavy Bolters from something like Rogue Trader (2D10+2 Pen 5) and even without RF was roughly on par or better than most of the Plasma weapons from its own book (A Plasma Gun being 1D10+9 Pen8 with no Tearing).
It was just too over the top any way you sliced it, and nobody was bothering with the other guns
You could think that, until you take into account that plasma guns have Maximal Mode. When they deal 2d10+9 damage on pen 10, with Volatile to boot, they suddenly become very dangerous indeed!
The Rogue Trader HB is not vehicle-mounted (it is entirely man-portable) and even then, the reduced damage is easily explainable by reduced quality compared to Astartes weaponry, the latter which is also of greater power even than human-sized weapons of equivalent craft.
Vaktathi wrote: They're huge. That's what makes them hard to kill, not the innate toughness of their flesh aside from the chitonous armor.
Ogryns? They wear little armour and are still obscenely tough. Or even Primarchs, if we wanna go down that route...
Of course you'd buff marines in the RPG where they're already massively OP.
I also happen to play a 40kRPG, and I think its totally fine that our IG party would absolutely butcher 2-3 SMs with ease. Considering how well trained and well gear our party is.
Bobthehero wrote: Of course you'd buff marines in the RPG where they're already massively OP.
Are not!
Bobthehero wrote: I also happen to play a 40kRPG, and I think its totally fine that our IG party would absolutely butcher 2-3 SMs with ease. Considering how well trained and well gear our party is.
I would expect nothing else from our resident IGhammerist.
Hell, you and Vaktathi even have really similar avatars. Who is the real hivemind here?
Definetly ImpKnights. As a LOW selection for Imperials, they would be fine. But it is RIDICULUS to fight nothing but 4-5 Knights in a Battle Forged list
Fluffwise, it be too improbable for so many to be gathered in 1 place with no other units around.
Gameplay it invalidates half the units in an opposing all-comers list. If you have so much as 1 unit that cant somehow affect a Knight, you are now playing with a handicap.
In this case, the whole squad is armed with said weapons, so avoiding the melta shot is only going to end up with the Marine either getting shot with a burst of super-hellgun or a techpriest powerfist in the face.
epronovost wrote: I think they write a decent game right now else I wouldn't play it let alone discuss with a perfect stranger about it.
You're wrong.
The number of armies or tools is irrelevant to game balance at this point.
No it isn't. If GW has a fixed number of hours to spend on working on 40k then spreading that work over even more armies means that quality will inevitably suffer. And GW clearly isn't willing to hire more authors to do the job right.
Ogryns are just the equivalent of humans on steroids. Unlike Tyranids they don't have skin that's stronger than tank armor, claws that are sharper than knives, etc. Ogryn fluff is just fine.
Ashiraya wrote: You know, I have always wondered how they can afford putting so much investment into each Marine yet can't afford a plasma gun for each guy.
The only explanation that makes sense is "because god said so". Spare marines are armed according to the demands of their bizarre cult, not according to what the best weapon for the job is.
Space Marines being strong does not make them stupid. They take care to assess and take out/avoid what CAN kill them.
Unless of course honor demands that they face the plasma gun in honorable combat, in which case they die. Being strong doesn't make them stupid, but being religious zealots who care more about obeying god than winning wars certainly does.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: So why do you survive into meltagun/powerfist range, anyway?
Because an average war has at least a few thousand guardsmen with melta guns for every space marine on the planet, on top of all the tanks/artillery/etc. If the first hundred melta gunners don't stop a marine maybe the next one will.
Also because we've got Ork+ levels of toughness along with carapace armor, don't think it'll tank bolters well, but it'll do. Or we'll just use the Ogryn in our squad as cover.
Carapace armour is supposed to be about equal to tau combat armour, but heavier and less refined (and with out all the communications and tracking tech). And combat armour can stop bolters. Now, it's not like they stop all damage done from bolters, but they can stop them (combat armour may have a slight advantage over carapace armour via fuller protection (full helm, built in mini shield, ect.).
'Ork+ levels of toughness' and people are calling RPGSM protagonisterated?
This reminds me of when we were playing RT. Our Missionary rolled on the mutations table, and managed to end up as a Fear (4) monstrosity that made even our buffed Marines seem weak.
All the PCs are pretty skewed. I haven't played only war, but I have characters in DH and DH2 that would absolute destroy space marines. One being a psyker who manged to individually travel through the warp unprotected (the DM gave me a 1/10000 chance (rolling two 100s), and I somehow passed), and another being power-armoued melee guy armed with power sword and plasma pistol.
Ashiraya wrote: 'Ork+ levels of toughness' and people are calling RPGSM protagonisterated?
This reminds me of when we were playing RT. Our Missionary rolled on the mutations table, and managed to end up as a Fear (4) monstrosity that made even our buffed Marines seem weak.
Mmm, okay, just Ork, I dun goofed, Toughess is 50+ with a few talents to make us hardier, but no unatural stuff. Still enough to ignore shootas and ork melee attack, and very nearly survive a melta shot, if dice rolls are low enough
Co'tor Shas wrote: All the PCs are pretty skewed. I haven't played only war, but I have characters in DH and DH2 that would absolute destroy space marines. One being a psyker who manged to individually travel through the warp unprotected (the DM gave me a 1/10000 chance (rolling two 100s), and I somehow passed), and another being power-armoued melee guy armed with power sword and plasma pistol.
The NPC stats are good to go by.
Funnily enough, NPCCSM stats in Deathwatch are still pretty mighty, and would utterly destroy their PC counterparts in Black Crusade...
Based on the fact I'm seeing only 9 votes for CSM but many votes for SM, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that it's not ALLSM chapters people are considering removing.
Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim's face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour, but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a Primarch.
- Fulgrim, pg. 384
I am totally, 100% going to ignore this and pretend that stupid bit of fluff never existed . Like, really. That is terrible. Who wrote that? So I make sure I never ever read anything he or she wrote. Except if it was Sandy Mitchell, because Ciaphas Cain. But it was not Sandy Mitchell.
Ashiraya wrote: You know, I have always wondered how they can afford putting so much investment into each Marine yet can't afford a plasma gun for each guy.
I mean, if they can give it to a guardsman, surely it won't be too expensive for every Space Marine? A million plasma guns should not be too much of a bother to make.
And it would be a flat upgrade to the bolter.
And now, for the self-destructive marines! Let them all overheat!
Bobthehero wrote: Of course you'd buff marines in the RPG where they're already massively OP.
Are not!
Ahahah, come on !
Ashiraya wrote: I would expect nothing else from our resident IGhammerist.
Hell, you and Vaktathi even have really similar avatars. Who is the real hivemind here?
Is it the IG clique that is out to get me?
Hey, the Sisters want a piece of you too! So we can flame it. And melta it. And bolter it. But mostly melta, because melta kill marines very dead, and I know you hate them for it .
(Also Death Korpers are not famous for their personality and individuality)
I am totally, 100% going to ignore this and pretend that stupid bit of fluff never existed . Like, really. That is terrible. Who wrote that? So I make sure I never ever read anything he or she wrote. Except if it was Sandy Mitchell, because Ciaphas Cain. But it was not Sandy Mitchell.
Also, I see Bob is still traumatised from the Vraks books.
Spoiler:
The attack order flashed through every vox-caster set in the forward trenches, and was relayed to the men. The Krieg guardsmen scambled up the ladders and over the parapet, surging forward in a tide across no-man's land. Across no-man's land the enemy responded to the lifting of the bombardment. They ran to crew their crew-served weapons, awaiting the inevitable ground assault. Though their targets had not even come into view, the defenders opened a lethal hail of grazing fire. Men started to fall, but the attackers pressed on. Soon the defensive batteries that had not been knocked-out opened up with their own barrage. Shells started to crash down into the advancing Krieg rank, as the defender's fire increased. As the artillery fire hammered down it caused the utter collapse of the 158th regiment's attack in sector 50-45. The Commissars amongst the retreating assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches. At the parapet the first wave collided with the second wave as they moved forwards to begin their advance. Fighting broke out as the officers of the second wave tried to force passage forwards. After only a couple hours the 158th regiment's attack had disintegrated into shambles.
Ashiraya wrote: Also, I see Bob is still traumatised from the Vraks books.
Spoiler:
The attack order flashed through every vox-caster set in the forward trenches, and was relayed to the men. The Krieg guardsmen scambled up the ladders and over the parapet, surging forward in a tide across no-man's land. Across no-man's land the enemy responded to the lifting of the bombardment. They ran to crew their crew-served weapons, awaiting the inevitable ground assault. Though their targets had not even come into view, the defenders opened a lethal hail of grazing fire. Men started to fall, but the attackers pressed on. Soon the defensive batteries that had not been knocked-out opened up with their own barrage. Shells started to crash down into the advancing Krieg rank, as the defender's fire increased. As the artillery fire hammered down it caused the utter collapse of the 158th regiment's attack in sector 50-45. The Commissars amongst the retreating assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches. At the parapet the first wave collided with the second wave as they moved forwards to begin their advance. Fighting broke out as the officers of the second wave tried to force passage forwards. After only a couple hours the 158th regiment's attack had disintegrated into shambles.
Not so fearless now, nyah nyah nyah!
So that's one regiment of DKoK running away, compared to how many chapters/legions of marines falling to chaos?
Knights. I'm sorry, but there is just no justification for a two unit codex. Either make them LOW choices in all Imperial armies (which will prevent knight spamming) or expand it into an Adeptus Mechanicus codex.
Ashiraya wrote: Also, I see Bob is still traumatised from the Vraks books.
Spoiler:
The attack order flashed through every vox-caster set in the forward trenches, and was relayed to the men. The Krieg guardsmen scambled up the ladders and over the parapet, surging forward in a tide across no-man's land. Across no-man's land the enemy responded to the lifting of the bombardment. They ran to crew their crew-served weapons, awaiting the inevitable ground assault. Though their targets had not even come into view, the defenders opened a lethal hail of grazing fire. Men started to fall, but the attackers pressed on. Soon the defensive batteries that had not been knocked-out opened up with their own barrage. Shells started to crash down into the advancing Krieg rank, as the defender's fire increased. As the artillery fire hammered down it caused the utter collapse of the 158th regiment's attack in sector 50-45. The Commissars amongst the retreating assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches. At the parapet the first wave collided with the second wave as they moved forwards to begin their advance. Fighting broke out as the officers of the second wave tried to force passage forwards. After only a couple hours the 158th regiment's attack had disintegrated into shambles.
Not so fearless now, nyah nyah nyah!
So that's one regiment of DKoK running away, compared to how many chapters/legions of marines falling to chaos?
I play the 5th Siege regiment, not those failures from the 158th (someone broke their vat tubes or something, and someone sent the faulty batch to the lines, instead of using them as fodder to train real Kriegsmen, in order to make the Kriegsmen look not fearless so SM players would feel better agaisnt themselves, tis a conspiracy, I say!)
And the new book merely calls it ''a total collapse'' no mention of Kriegsmen breaking and other silly nonsense
This thread seems kind of prophetic as i just heard a rumor that GW are planning a big shake up of 40k in the vain of the End Times and the forthcoming changes to fantasy.
SeanDrake wrote: This thread seems kind of prophetic as i just heard a rumor that GW are planning a big shake up of 40k in the vain of the End Times and the forthcoming changes to fantasy.
I doubt that very much. 40k is doing very well, WFB was... less so
Without wanting to get back into a massive quote-fest simply because I do not have time currently, I would note that the incident regarding the DKoK in question has been apparently retconned to some degree, being described somewhat differently in the redone Siege of Vrak book just released a few weeks ago. It simply states that the 158th Siege Regiment's attack collapsed in that engagement, and the regiment is mentioned partaking in later operations (such as some of their Grenadiers operating with Inquisitorial Scion squads once the INQ and GK's show up) instead of having been disbanded.
Don't worry, the story is 98% identical, the ending doesn't change if you've read it before.
They really call the Stormtroopers Scions? Actually, they have Scions on Vraks? I though it was Grey Knights and SM's only.
They had Stormtroopers in the original books, not hugely highlighted but mentioned a couple times. Yes they do now refer to them as "Tempestus" and whatnot
Grey Knights. They should be included in an Inquisition book(or a special Lord of War for SM). And I think the Dark Mexhanicus should get there own book.
They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.
Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.
That's about how out of place I see the Tau.
Since when are Tau a "happy" faction? They're a generic scifi evil empire with Starship Troopers power armor. The only way they're "good" is that they're pragmatic enough to use science instead of religious idiocy, and to offer their enemies a chance to surrender and be absorbed into their empire instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in their path. Sure, they talk a lot about the "greater good", but only in the same way that the US talks about "bringing democracy" to countries that just happen to have valuable resources to exploit. In reality they're exactly what space marines would be if they were focused entirely on winning wars efficiently instead of absurd religious rituals.
Na, I think the problem is more under the hood than your particulars: Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate. People are basically bad - and 40k ran with that. The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.
I would rather an immersive fiction maintain a consistent sense of reality than entertain the notion of fake virtue working best.
Don't mean to be wordy.
The Tau are not about a fake virtue working best. It's a faction about brain washing 1984 style working best to put your people in line. Humanity is all about getting everyone in line through fear of religious retribution. The Tau MAKE you believe in the greater good. Not because it's greater or good. Not because you are convinced. You are forced. It's basically mental rape of their free will.
No faction should be let go, granted there are groups I dislike (Space Mahreens knights, and csm) but that being said I can clearly see their place and just because I dislike some fluff\looks doesn't mean I'm such a snob that no one else can enjoy them.
SeanDrake wrote: This thread seems kind of prophetic as i just heard a rumor that GW are planning a big shake up of 40k in the vain of the End Times and the forthcoming changes to fantasy.
I doubt that very much. 40k is doing very well, WFB was... less so
Actually looking at the financials 40k is doing ok ish at best, it only looks good when compared with the abysmal whfb.
Remember the often quoted reference that space marines out sell the entire whfb range, well that means they sell more than any of the other 40k armies so there's plenty of dead weight to look at trimming.
SeanDrake wrote: This thread seems kind of prophetic as i just heard a rumor that GW are planning a big shake up of 40k in the vain of the End Times and the forthcoming changes to fantasy.
I doubt that very much. 40k is doing very well, WFB was... less so
Actually looking at the financials 40k is doing ok ish at best, it only looks good when compared with the abysmal whfb.
Remember the often quoted reference that space marines out sell the entire whfb range, well that means they sell more than any of the other 40k armies so there's plenty of dead weight to look at trimming.
IIRC, those numbers had WHFB amounting 8% of total GW sales or so. Which means that most likely most 40k armies sold better than the whole WHFB.
Also, GW seems to be expanding the list of factions with all the mini-codexes popping up lately, so I doubt any End Times like event is in plan.
KommissarKiln wrote: Based on the fact I'm seeing only 9 votes for CSM but many votes for SM, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that it's not ALLSM chapters people are considering removing.
....right?
Actually, removing all marines would probably help the meta a lot.
Remove all marines except chaos marines. Remove IKs. Narratively, the SMs were all corrupt, but driven off by the Imperial Army during the heresy. The IG now solely defends the Imperium from the raids of Chaos.
Better, just remove all variations of marines. Or all humans, actually. That would make the setting actually interesting. We all know the IoM is going to win whatever new story/ game/ whatever comes out, because that's how GW swing these days. There's no suspense in that, no grim darkness. We know the outcome; it's always the same. Forgeworld publications aside, that rings true. Remove the IoM and the setting actually gets interesting.
liquidjoshi wrote: Remove all marines except chaos marines. Remove IKs. Narratively, the SMs were all corrupt, but driven off by the Imperial Army during the heresy. The IG now solely defends the Imperium from the raids of Chaos.
Better, just remove all variations of marines. Or all humans, actually. That would make the setting actually interesting. We all know the IoM is going to win whatever new story/ game/ whatever comes out, because that's how GW swing these days. There's no suspense in that, no grim darkness. We know the outcome; it's always the same. Forgeworld publications aside, that rings true. Remove the IoM and the setting actually gets interesting.
My opinion, sorry not sorry.
You speak the truth! They need to kill off the IoM and let them get absorbed into the Tau Empire Mwahahaha
i personally dont think ig and sm should be put together but if it were down i could imagine it being odd and quite fun. i do think chaos should be rolled into one though
the clone wrote: i personally dont think ig and sm should be put together but if it were down i could imagine it being odd and quite fun. i do think chaos should be rolled into one though
The badab war PDF(Tyrant's legion?) was interesting, while being subpar on TT.
Care to give some reasons to support your point though? Was is the codex creep or something?
50% codex creep 50% problems with mix and match rules/units from SM/IG. You basically trade in the possibility to have some SM with IG with all the bling they usually get when in their individual codicies. For example they both have veterans, but for tyrant's legion they are veterans lite (more like regular guardsmen). You have 3 troops... if I remember correctly you have to get some conscripts and then choose between SM (without some heavy options) and an in-between guardsmen and veterans. Elite section is meh Fast attack are bikes and hellhounds Heavy is AMAZING
Yeah. Anything depicting them through something else than half-forgotten legend will suck imho. But that is just me.
..Except there are still people alive who first-hand witnessed the Primarchs in action. You can't have real legends when there's till at leas two first party witnesses.
Like many other posters have said, Imperial Knights represent GW trying to further inflate the game, thereby devaluing the miniatures we all pay a lot of money for. Obviously this drift has been going on since 3rd edition, but Knights imo were an attempt by GW to say "see, aren't superheavies cool? You should use them ALL THE TIME!!"
I mean, I really like the model, but the scale at which it functions (especially in large groups) is beyond what a significant proportion of 40k armies were meant to handle. I suppose if IK had been introduced following some of the superheavy stipulations FW has imposed, the problem really wouldn't have been that bad. But GW seems to put profit beyond functionality, so here we are.
Beyond the Knights, I would like to see SM factions consolidated into one or two books, simply because the level of special snowflake they have gets tiresome.
"What are you playing, Space Marines?
No no, they are the special Viking Space Marines. They have almost all of the same units as Space Marines, with the same troops, stats, and vehicles, but these guyz have wolves, man!"
It's not that I hate Space Wolves (although their fluff has always been pretty poor and they would have been more interesting having turned to Khorne), but there are more Marine armies than necessary by a large margin.
Mumblez wrote: I think I'm going to be sick after reading a few lines of Primarch fluff. Jeez, and people called Draigo out for being a Mary Sue...
Yeah, I must not remember the few HH books I read (through Eisenstein), because I couldn't recall these guys taking bullets to the face like their flesh wouldn't be destroyed (stronger than metal, so kewl!!!).
I really don't remember the old fluff talking about Primarchs having *literal* superpowers!
Mumblez wrote: I think I'm going to be sick after reading a few lines of Primarch fluff. Jeez, and people called Draigo out for being a Mary Sue...
Yeah, I must not remember the few HH books I read (through Eisenstein), because I couldn't recall these guys taking bullets to the face like their flesh wouldn't be destroyed (stronger than metal, so kewl!!!).
I really don't remember the old fluff talking about Primarchs having *literal* superpowers!
Yeah. It probably doesn't help that I'm 'mad cuz I'm bad' considering I've fought against Horus 3 times so far and he has made a mockery of my orks every time.
Seriously, after reading that page I've lost all motivation to ever get into the Horus Heresy series. It's probably a good thing anyway, considering BL will spread the story out so much that it'll never be over...
Now just one mystery remains... Why in Gork's name do people like the HH stuff if it's Primarch porn?
None, I don't think any are bad (though all contain something stupid or other the universe would be better without). If I absolutely had to choose one army to go it would be the Necrons, but mainly because I find their aesthetics the least appealing -repetiive details, limited textures and scope for coulour schemes. They have some good looking flyers and elites but the basic warriors are my least favourite of all basic troops in the game. Repetitive details, limited variance and those awful green gun tubes everywhere.
Yeah. Anything depicting them through something else than half-forgotten legend will suck imho. But that is just me.
..Except there are still people alive who first-hand witnessed the Primarchs in action. You can't have real legends when there's till at leas two first party witnesses.
Merger of GK, SOB, assassins, and now the admech. - We call you IOM Allies
DA, SW, BA - gone and merged into one book. We call you Divergent Marines. You can keep your special units and what not, but loose access to 50% of the C:SM codex. You know, so you can actually be divergent.
DE, Eldar, Harliquins - All merged into one book.
Codex deamons - gone, killed, and destroyed. Choice units moved back into codex C:CSM to help them become once again not just angry spiky marines but a book with some flair and different units.
Pretty much everything else can stay the same. There are just too many independent factions right now that would be better off being relegated as dedicated allies or just combined to help speed up the release schedule. The bloat has just gotten too big to maintain. And it really shows.
Merger of GK, SOB, assassins, and now the admech. - We call you IOM Allies
DA, SW, BA - gone and merged into one book. We call you Divergent Marines. You can keep your special units and what not, but loose access to 50% of the C:SM codex. You know, so you can actually be divergent.
DE, Eldar, Harliquins - All merged into one book.
Codex deamons - gone, killed, and destroyed. Choice units moved back into codex C:CSM to help them become once again not just angry spiky marines but a book with some flair and different units.
Pretty much everything else can stay the same. There are just too many independent factions right now that would be better off being relegated as dedicated allies or just combined to help speed up the release schedule. The bloat has just gotten too big to maintain. And it really shows.
Harlequins. I really don't see why they have their own codex. Between exodites and the many craftworlds, there's 100 things they could do with eldar that would be more exciting.
Ohh, I forgot, Im actually adding in one codex. Codex Lords of War. All superheavies, titans, IKs, wraith knights, dreadknights, riptides, some nids (of which I admit to not knowing much about). Etc. All those units that give standard games fits go in here. This allows guys like Logan, gazzy, etc to be used in regular games without inviting titans to the party.
Now I wouldn't be apposed to having buffed up special CHaracters show up in LOW, but make them worthy of the slot.
Wyzilla wrote: ..Except there are still people alive who first-hand witnessed the Primarchs in action. You can't have real legends when there's till at leas two first party witnesses.
Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT .
Yeah, but not really trustworthy source. Especially Kharn. Because when you ask him how tall the primarchs were, for instance, he always answer “Kill, maim, burn!”, which is not really helpful.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT
Easy, just ask him about the Khan.
The Space Wolves respected the White Scars, so you can expect him to not downplay them like he would if you asked about Magnus, but they were not fanboys for Jaghatai in the same way.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT
Easy, just ask him about the Khan.
The Space Wolves respected the White Scars, so you can expect him to not downplay them like he would if you asked about Magnus, but they were not fanboys for Jaghatai in the same way.
thing to keep in mind is the IoM wouldn't trust a CSM to give a fair account. even if he was telling the truth. "ohh yeah we started the imperial cult. and your emperor punished us for it. he's no god" -truth from a word bearer, perhaps, but would anyone belive a CSM telling them Lorgar started the Imperial cult?
sisters of battle, obviously GW doesen't give a rats ass about them, i'm not sure why gk was voted the most...there is a fine line between removal and balance...sisters of battle are like grandmas denturesyou know you need to put them in the garbage, but dont want to let the memory die, or missing cleaning them
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT
Easy, just ask him about the Khan.
The Space Wolves respected the White Scars, so you can expect him to not downplay them like he would if you asked about Magnus, but they were not fanboys for Jaghatai in the same way.
thing to keep in mind is the IoM wouldn't trust a CSM to give a fair account. even if he was telling the truth. "ohh yeah we started the imperial cult. and your emperor punished us for it. he's no god" -truth from a word bearer, perhaps, but would anyone belive a CSM telling them Lorgar started the Imperial cult?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT
Easy, just ask him about the Khan.
The Space Wolves respected the White Scars, so you can expect him to not downplay them like he would if you asked about Magnus, but they were not fanboys for Jaghatai in the same way.
thing to keep in mind is the IoM wouldn't trust a CSM to give a fair account. even if he was telling the truth. "ohh yeah we started the imperial cult. and your emperor punished us for it. he's no god" -truth from a word bearer, perhaps, but would anyone belive a CSM telling them Lorgar started the Imperial cult?
Bjorn is not a CSM.
true I was refering to the earlier posts about CSMs. Bjorn as noted he's a dreadnought so proably doesn't nesscarily have a perfectly clear reflection of things. also one man is not nesscarily accurate. he could tell you much about Russ, but he may embellish things a bit ("and russ went fishing.... the salmon he caught was THIS big") he's also a single source with obvious biases.
Crimson Heretic wrote: sisters of battle, obviously GW doesen't give a rats ass about them, i'm not sure why gk was voted the most...there is a fine line between removal and balance...sisters of battle are like grandmas denturesyou know you need to put them in the garbage, but dont want to let the memory die, or missing cleaning them
Grey Knights, in my opinion, aren't problematic because of balance, but rather because they mess up the whole atmosphere of 40k. Chaos is scary because it can corrupt anyone, and in the fluff it is often tainting its way into Inquisitors, psykers, and those most prepared to resist its temptation. Demons are scary because humans are no match for them. Grey Knights blow up both of those ideas since they're apparently incorruptible, which goes against the entire premise of the Horus Heresy. Seriously, Horus the greatest of primarchs fell to the lure of chaos, but now there's a whole chapter of marines who never fall. And the fact that Grey Knights can go toe-to-toe with demons just ruins the terror of chaos and turns the demons into just goofy looking monsters. Finally, Grey Knights just shouldn't be fighting on a battlefield in the open. They should be a society shrouded in mystery, only hinted at in the fluff, assisting inquisitors in their work, not full frontal assaults.
They're like the RPG:paladin 40k:equivalent. "I'll be the feral barbarian who can tank damage and defend the group!" "I'll be the group healer, keeping everyone at full strength!" "I'll be the rogue, sniping bad guys and dealing damage!" "I'll be the paladin and do all those things you guys just mentioned, but all at once. And I'm a total mary sue who could never do any wrong!"
Grey Knights, in my opinion, aren't problematic because of balance, but rather because they mess up the whole atmosphere of 40k. Chaos is scary because it can corrupt anyone, and in the fluff it is often tainting its way into Inquisitors, psykers, and those most prepared to resist its temptation. Demons are scary because humans are no match for them. Grey Knights blow up both of those ideas since they're apparently incorruptible, which goes against the entire premise of the Horus Heresy. Seriously, Horus the greatest of primarchs fell to the lure of chaos, but now there's a whole chapter of marines who never fall. And the fact that Grey Knights can go toe-to-toe with demons just ruins the terror of chaos and turns the demons into just goofy looking monsters. Finally, Grey Knights just shouldn't be fighting on a battlefield in the open. They should be a society shrouded in mystery, only hinted at in the fluff, assisting inquisitors in their work, not full frontal assaults.
They're like the RPG:paladin 40k:equivalent. "I'll be the feral barbarian who can tank damage and defend the group!" "I'll be the group healer, keeping everyone at full strength!" "I'll be the rogue, sniping bad guys and dealing damage!" "I'll be the paladin and do all those things you guys just mentioned, but all at once. And I'm a total mary sue who could never do any wrong!"
Although the point is totally valid, having grown up playing D&D 3.5 the idea of the OP Paladin makes me lol hard, because goddamn did those poor bastards need some help keeping up in 3.5. Even with Sword of the Arcane Order, an Ubercharging build with a Valorous Lance, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and some way of getting full attacks off on the charge, they still could be routinely outpeformed by Swordsages, let alone any Tier 1 or 2 classes.
I almost feel like Grey Knights should have been either a mini-dex, or some sort of incredibly costly bodyguard unit for Codex: Inquisition accompanying Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, rather than a full-fledged army.
Crimson Heretic wrote: sisters of battle, obviously GW doesen't give a rats ass about them, i'm not sure why gk was voted the most...there is a fine line between removal and balance...sisters of battle are like grandmas denturesyou know you need to put them in the garbage, but dont want to let the memory die, or missing cleaning them
Grey Knights, in my opinion, aren't problematic because of balance, but rather because they mess up the whole atmosphere of 40k. Chaos is scary because it can corrupt anyone, and in the fluff it is often tainting its way into Inquisitors, psykers, and those most prepared to resist its temptation. Demons are scary because humans are no match for them. Grey Knights blow up both of those ideas since they're apparently incorruptible, which goes against the entire premise of the Horus Heresy. Seriously, Horus the greatest of primarchs fell to the lure of chaos, but now there's a whole chapter of marines who never fall. And the fact that Grey Knights can go toe-to-toe with demons just ruins the terror of chaos and turns the demons into just goofy looking monsters. Finally, Grey Knights just shouldn't be fighting on a battlefield in the open. They should be a society shrouded in mystery, only hinted at in the fluff, assisting inquisitors in their work, not full frontal assaults.
They're like the RPG:paladin 40k:equivalent. "I'll be the feral barbarian who can tank damage and defend the group!" "I'll be the group healer, keeping everyone at full strength!" "I'll be the rogue, sniping bad guys and dealing damage!" "I'll be the paladin and do all those things you guys just mentioned, but all at once. And I'm a total mary sue who could never do any wrong!"
Grey Knights definitely deserved getting fleshed out and made into a playable faction - and I say this as a Daemon player! They are not actually anything like a Mary Sue at all however, rather the previous r pile of monkey crap of a codex made them into a complete farce...
Grey Knights are definitely NOT! 100% incorruptible - they simply have never yet had a single Battle Brother fall to Chaos. There are a few hints out there, between the BL books and both the GK & Daemon codices that a Grey Knight Marine is potentially capable of falling to the taint of Chaos, they're simply the hardest b******* of the hardest b******* to break!
They also have their place on the many battlefield of the 40k verse, as they are the Imperium's only answer to keeping Chaos at bay. From the 1st Armageddon War, to planet or even system-wide Warpstorms that can spawn a limitless tide of corruption & daemonic madness.
And if they are spotted on the battlefield by other Imperial forces? Well, Space Marines are typically mind-wiped afterwards to keep the secret safe, while every other lowly mortal is either made to "permanently forget," or else, whole populations & regiments are relocated to prison planets and made to live out the rest of their lives in miserable conditions farming/mining/fabricating/whatever until they collapse and die.
Grey Knights are actually the guys who best epitomise the super Grim Dark!(tm) nature of the 40k universe!
When you start looking at them as secretive Demon Hunter SMs, which only take Psykers, instead of them being more Space Marine than Space Marines, their place and rules make a lot more sense. They work great as an elite force that shows up and does its job. But when people use them as SM^2, they get stupid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Oh, and Book of Nine Swords was tons of fun, used for narrative reasons, but some of those powers were game breaking. Concentration check x2 for damage? Lolwut?
But Druids were the real 'I do what you do, better' class. Could be a better Fighter (wild form) or full caster than a mage, cleric, or Fighter, it seemed. But again, done narratively, added a lot to the game.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Oh, and Book of Nine Swords was tons of fun, used for narrative reasons, but some of those powers were game breaking. Concentration check x2 for damage? Lolwut?
But Druids were the real 'I do what you do, better' class. Could be a better Fighter (wild form) or full caster than a mage, cleric, or Fighter, it seemed. But again, done narratively, added a lot to the game.)
3.5 is probably the only game I've ever played that was a bigger mess balance wise than 40k, and yet it was tons of fun.
I wouldn't call any amount of single target damage gamebreaking though. You had to reach the target(not always easy), hit it (even harder), and best case scenario you killed it. Casters had many other ways to kill stuff dead in one round from range, along many other ways to solve non-combat problems, which Tome of Battle lacked.
Anyway, bwck to Grey Knights, I feel that if Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Bloid Angels deserve their own codex, then so do Grey Knights.
Daemons. I love daemons in 40k, they're absolute murder machines and one of the many scary things that go bump in the night in 40k but as a stand alone army they are supremely boringly redundant, (just to achieve the size of any other regular 40k army) frankly too powerful, and don't make any sense fluffwise. daemonhosts don't just appear to fight people because they can, well maybe sometimes they do but not ALL the time like is the case with most games of 40k)
I would like Daemons an army removed from the game, and then make it possible to bring a Chaos army focused around summoning daemons as it's strategy. Cults worshipping around shrines. Blood sacrifices. Sorcerors "impeaching" greater daemons for aid. I would dial them up, so that they're unstoppable engines of destruction ala fluff but then only make them last a turn or two
I'd if not remove Tau at least change their fluff. I don't feel they work 100% with the game, mostly due to their small size and limited scope. 40k consists of galatic sized factions that can be seen potentially anywhere.....
And the Tau...
I'd make em a galatic sized empire, smaller then the IoM but one capable of conceviably having a presence everywhere.
CSM 1%, nids 2% so tasteless people in the minority heh. Not that internet polls are representative though.
Id love to get more angst into the thread but truth be told, Im against removing armies. Tau look like armoured ETs and should go home but I ussualy try to get behind the armies I dislike, doesnt work with Eldar though because their elvyponytailness is just too much. I dont want them removed as well though, just changed visualy and grimdarked hard, too much connotation with Tolkien imo.
But seriously Tau dont fit by design, especialy in visual department - like someone said take a Blanche picture and put an ewok there or sth. I dig some of the designs but they should be in a different universe. Too late I guess though.
Nids are just teeth heavy grey aliens wearing bugs as armour, lots of Giger and Lovecraft influence there too. They add some much needed cosmic horrror sf tone to the otherwise bit too fantasyish setting, especialy lately with newcrons, helldrakes, scions and all the other in your face wfb in space stuff.
CSM well if you want them removed youre in the wrong game and please go back to Halo.
i think that to update tau they need to 'modernise' it by bringing out some seriously new game changing units that aren't battlesuits. maybe bring out another sub species or a new more dark side ish feeling suit or tanks, the broadside was a good addition but i think a smaller, more nimble unit that has good firepower AND armour. they also need to make the models look less like something out of a plastic catalog in my opinion.
no offence is intended in anyway and if i come across as moany it is because i myself have always found tau slightly annoying but i can see why people like them (there ungodly firepower)
I think for good reason too. IK were dumped on the game in this micro, one-unit codex (no, a weapon option doesn't count as another unit) that falls outside of the realm of normal armies in that it's just superheavy walkers. On top of that, they add a formation for five that's very effective and eschew any restraint on the number of IK you can have and you see people playing all-IK armies because why not?
Now the all-IK army isn't unbeatable, but it requires list tailoring to play against and it's incredibly boring to play. GW should have introduced it via a dataslate and made it 0-1, or at least 25% of the army like FW has always done with super heavies. But that wouldn't have brought in as much money, so to hell with the game.
I voted Space Marines. Not so much to actually remove any of the chapters, but I still support the idea or reducing the number of separate Space Marines books, and instead have just one giant Book o' Marines. That way, they all get upgraded together, so no disparity in equipment, rules, points costs, etc., for some chapters being out of date compared to newer marine books.
Grey Knights definitely deserved getting fleshed out and made into a playable faction - and I say this as a Daemon player! They are not actually anything like a Mary Sue at all however, rather the previous r pile of monkey crap of a codex made them into a complete farce...
Dude, GK are a faction that consists about 1000 members....how much of a variety you expect when other books describes factions consisted billions?
A pure GK player fielding a 1850 army is fielding about 5% of the entire faction.
Vespids have a single unit for the entire RACE. with no options beyond the team leader to add insult to injury.
The Space Wolves respected the White Scars, so you can expect him to not downplay them like he would if you asked about Magnus, but they were not fanboys for Jaghatai in the same way.
They make everything bigger. They make themselves bigger so that the wolves look better, and they make their enemies bigger so the wolves can look even better ^^.
I'd say Tyranids, but I don't actually want them removed. They were never really interesting to me due to lack of personalities, but as a force in 40k universe they are really where they should be. So to me, they will always be a decent antagonist at least.
Other than that, variety is one of two things that made 40k for me (another being crazy eclectic style), wouldn't want that to dwindle.
Wyzilla wrote: ..Except there are still people alive who first-hand witnessed the Primarchs in action. You can't have real legends when there's till at leas two first party witnesses.
Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT .
Yeah, but not really trustworthy source. Especially Kharn. Because when you ask him how tall the primarchs were, for instance, he always answer “Kill, maim, burn!”, which is not really helpful.
Except Astartes minds don't suffer from aging ailments, only eventually running out of enough RAM to store data or successfully break down and digest information. Although they can simply have their brains upgraded if that becomes a problem.
Imperial Knights for sure. They are an Apoc style unit in a regular game, from what amounts to basically a 1 entry codex. They should have been in an IA book, or at the very least a high-point Heavy from the Imperial Guard codex (F that new codex name to Hell).
All the other codices at least feel complete, or mostly complete.
RancidHate wrote: Imperial Knights for sure. They are an Apoc style unit in a regular game, from what amounts to basically a 1 entry codex. They should have been in an IA book, or at the very least a high-point Heavy from the Imperial Guard codex (F that new codex name to Hell).
All the other codices at least feel complete, or mostly complete.
I agree 100%. To wishing IK were moved to apoc or rolled into another book, yes, but even more so with regards to this...
"YOU MANIACS! YOU GOOBED IT UP! GOD DAMN YOU ALLLL TO HELL!"
Wyzilla wrote: ..Except there are still people alive who first-hand witnessed the Primarchs in action. You can't have real legends when there's till at leas two first party witnesses.
Being that old does things to your mind. And also, at least one of them is a space wolf, so you can count on him to embellish things a LOT .
Yeah, but not really trustworthy source. Especially Kharn. Because when you ask him how tall the primarchs were, for instance, he always answer “Kill, maim, burn!”, which is not really helpful.
Except Astartes minds don't suffer from aging ailments, only eventually running out of enough RAM to store data or successfully break down and digest information. Although they can simply have their brains upgraded if that becomes a problem.
A take it you haven't read about Longfang have you.
.
mods please close this forum post... It is getting REEEEEAALLY off topic and discussion is mostly becoming repetitive.
). A caste system is inherently divided and thus an singular purpose to do anything would be quite limited... without magic. If they had an internal power struggle it would be a bit better - relaying the gritty reality.
pile of monkey crap of a codex made them into a complete farce...
