Having gotten a couple games under my belt (and also having watched all the MWG battle reports featuring the new Necrons) I have to say that going Decurion is like going Unbound. Except Decurion is even better than Unbound. I have yet to lose a game with the decurion and so does MWG.

Unless you're up against an absolute tailored Necron-killing list, the decurion will keep winning you games. It makes your army just so resilient that you end up losing between 1/3 and 2/3rd of your force at most by the end of most games.

So yeah. I personally am already tired of fielding the decurion - it doesnt make for fun games, neither to my opponent nor even to me now. CAD lists can be more varied and more fun for both players.

I've lost 2 out of my 8 games so far. Granted, My first loss I was trying a sub-par list just to test a formation (Annihilation Nexus....which is kinda meh) and my second loss I was using 2 Ctans. >.> That doesn't say much, giving every time I purposely play a strong list, I annihilate my opponent. But just play non-competitive things. Do that, and still use the Decurion. You might have fun.

Nope. I am enjoying my Reclamation Formation, Destroyer Cult, and then my Conclave on top of it.

Im loving the Decurion, harvest, and judicator. Once I get some destroyers ill be rocking that formation too.

I do feel kinda bad sometimes haha! everything just seems so hard to kill haha!!

Absolutely.

In fact, since I actually quite like the Reclamation Legion's bonuses- Relentless and Move through Cover, I've been strongly considering the idea of deliberately sabotaging otherwise valid Decurions by making them unbound, just to get back to sensible detachment bonuses.

That said, I've mostly been running CAD, CAD + 1 formation or armies made of three or so formations so far. The individual formations are fantastic army building tools and it's just a shame they came up with such a horribly thought out unique detachment.

The one Necron player in my group has just been running a CAD. But that is mostly due to point limitations. We mathed it out and at a bare minimum he needs about 800 points before upgrades, which means it will be possible in about 2 weeks when the campaign hits 900 points. I'm pressuring him into running it, as he is new, and I would love to see him take down one of the vets.

I don't feel bad in the slightest it's usually a balanced army with 3 Different Troops a huge point investment and the inability in lower points to really mix and match Formations. It's just a really strong detachment.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "fielding a Decurion," as there are many different possibilities depending on which formations one decides to use. And even within the Reclamation Legion itself you have lots of options: going heavy Ghost Arks, going heavy on the Night Scythes, an even mix of everything, or even a Warrior Phalanx (my personal favorite, but I admit I do have 100+ of the 2E metal Warriors). Sure, I can see how the AV13 wall can be annoying, that spamming the Wraith formation can be annoying, and so on. I really think a lot depends on how you actually play the army, and what choices you make.

For instance, my army is based strongly on the old 2E metals, so I mostly have Immortals, Warriors, Scarabs, and Destroyers. I've converted some Immortals into Lychguard and some Warriors into Deathmarks, and I do own two Night Scythes and two Anni/Command Barges, but I don't have a single Ghost Ark, Monolith, Wraith, or Flayed One, for example. So, when you think about it, I've been running a Reclamation Legion all these years anyway. I did feel a bit bad with my first game with the new book, as I tabled my opponent, but looking back, he was playing Black Templars MSU drop pods. I outnumbered and outgunned him by at least 2 to 1 (almost 3 to 1), so I realized later it was mostly just a bad match-up for him.

Not feeling bad in the slightest. People fielded triptide and tripple DK armies when I was playing (very) casual CSM, so why should I feel bad for them when I flip it around and bring something they have a hard time dealing with?

I am sure you won't be saying that once a few other codices get updated and get formations like Necrons do.

I am sure you will be going back to it just to survive and might even say how weak it is in the future.

Davor wrote:
I am sure you won't be saying that once a few other codices get updated and get formations like Necrons do.

I am sure you will be going back to it just to survive and might even say how weak it is in the future.

The formations alone aren't the problem with Necrons, its the fact that they get the formation benefits plus their detachment benefits. That's when it gets crazy.

In a world with IK, noone should feel bad for fielding anything.

Yeah honestly the Decurion while survivable isn't broke at all in fact whenever you see a list it's usually rather balanced.

The Decurion basically makes you play a balanced army and that's a good thing.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah honestly the Decurion while survivable isn't broke at all in fact whenever you see a list it's usually rather balanced.

The Decurion basically makes you play a balanced army and that's a good thing.

And....you get to play fluffy Necrons. Which is a huge plus in my book. But I honestly don't see what people have a problem with more, the Detachment itself, or the fact that we get formation bonuses too.

I haven't played with the new dex yet but it looks insanely powerful.
-Want ignores cover tank hunters with the speed to catch serpent (who are also great at anti horde)?
Here have some tomb blades
-Want the most unbelievable effective for its points anti infantry assult unit in the game?
Here have some Flayed Ones.
-Want a unit that will gut a knight in one round of combat before it even uses its stomps, is only 25% more expensive than a 5 man termi unit when at 10 men itself an is both more survivable and has more damage output than them?
Here have some Lychguard
-Want a unit that hits before most other ap2 units in combat has ap2 shooting, has the same durability as saguniary guard against small arms but a greater durability against ap2 and has jump pack movement, for 5ppm less?
Here have some praetorians
-Want the most resiliant and also fearless beasts in the game who on top of that have rending and get to ignore terrain completely?
Here have some wraiths.
-Want a unit that gets to upgrade the bs of all the units around it to bs5, has psudo av13 and a 2 shot multimelta?
Here have a stalker
-Want a unit that rerolls 1's to hit (on what can be easily bs5) and rerolls all pens or wounds on st5 ap3 or st9 ap2 gauss weapons?
Here have a destroyer cult.
-Want a slightly downgraded version of azraels 4++ buff for a blob at considerable discout?
Here have a cryptek with chronometron

The Decurion increases the survivability of units that are already underpriced for what they do, that is the problem people will have, but people are focusing solely on the detachment, when it is the units in it that are an issue.
I'm not complaining though - im dusting off my necrons right now!

This is all based on on paper reading as I've not had a battle yet. But it's plain to see.

I don't see how the units are an issue, other than Wraiths, who could've easily been 5-10 points more expensive. Every unit got cheaper than in the previous codex and most received buffs, but none of them are undercosted in my opinion.

If we compare them in codex then no - there is brilliant internal balance.

Let's compare them to SM that are considered top mid tier to bottom top tier depending on who you are speaking to.

Ccw scouts compared to flayed ones.
-Scouts have ATSKNF, higher initiative, scout and a few weapon options which you pay for.
-Flayed ones have +1ws, 2 more attacks, deepstrike, shred, 4+rp, fear, MTC and ld10.
For 2pts more.

Lychguard compared to termis.
-Lychguard have better suurvivability against small arms (3+/4+rp is as good as 2+ mathematically but t5 is better than t4), have better survivability against ap2 (4+rp compared to 5++) and the same survivability against st10 ap2. They have ap2 I2 attacks so strike before unwieldy. They have armourbane so are lethal against vehicles. Can be given even better surbivability with chronometron, res orb or solar staff. Ld10.
-Termis have ATSKNF, and 1 better st in combat. Also have 2 bolter shots at range. Can take weapon upgrades but pay for them.
Termis are 12ppm (43%) more expensive than lychguard. Termis are cobsidered poor for their points, but as shown above, even if they were 28pts each lychguard would still be better.

Praetorians vs Saguinary guard (alright BA rather than SM)
-Praetorians are as durable as SG against small arms, but more durable against ap2. They hit at ap2 st6 (not just on the charge) before initiative. Their shots are 2 higher strength and ap2 rather than ap4.
-Sanguinary Guard have 1 extra shot at 6" greater range. They also get to reroll ine missed hit in assault each. They can also get st6 ap2 on the charge but at I1. Otherwise it is st4/5 ap3 at initiative. SG have ATSKNF.
Sanguinary Guard are 5ppm (18%) more expensive.

Tomb Blades (with gauss, shield vane and nebuloscope) vs Bikes.
-Tomb blades are twice as durable against everything compared to bikes (apart from st10 ap3 or better), have better st and ap to their guns, has ignores cover and gauss too. They also have an extra 6" turbo boost and get to ignore terrain on their move.
-Bikes have ATSKNF and can pay for upgraded weapons on some of the unit. They have better initiative.
For all these advantages, TBs cost 1ppm more.

u forgot termis have deepstrike, and are thus pretty independent while Lychguard need a transport or are useless as they have zero ranged firepower

Also close combat units with lack of ATSKNF and low Initiative make for very risky close combat units in general, because if they lose combat, the danger is very real that they can get swept. Only the Necron high LD acts as buffer.

How in the world are Praetorians S6 (unless youre taking about particle casters)?

I don't personally think Lychguard are undercosted by the way. Just in comparison to their equivalents which are overcosted.

Praetorions seem a couple of points undercosted, whilst both tomb blades and flayed ones could do with at least another couple of points.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If we compare them in codex then no - there is brilliant internal balance.

Let's compare them to SM that are considered top mid tier to bottom top tier depending on who you are speaking to.

Ccw scouts compared to flayed ones.
-Scouts have ATSKNF, higher initiative, scout and a few weapon options which you pay for.
-Flayed ones have +1ws, 2 more attacks, deepstrike, shred, 4+rp, fear, MTC and ld10.
For 2pts more.

Lychguard compared to termis.
-Lychguard have better suurvivability against small arms (3+/4+rp is as good as 2+ mathematically but t5 is better than t4), have better survivability against ap2 (4+rp compared to 5++) and the same survivability against st10 ap2. They have ap2 I2 attacks so strike before unwieldy. They have armourbane so are lethal against vehicles. Can be given even better surbivability with chronometron, res orb or solar staff. Ld10.
-Termis have ATSKNF, and 1 better st in combat. Also have 2 bolter shots at range. Can take weapon upgrades but pay for them.
Termis are 12ppm (43%) more expensive than lychguard. Termis are cobsidered poor for their points, but as shown above, even if they were 28pts each lychguard would still be better.

Praetorians vs Saguinary guard (alright BA rather than SM)
-Praetorians are as durable as SG against small arms, but more durable against ap2. They hit at ap2 st6 (not just on the charge) before initiative. Their shots are 2 higher strength and ap2 rather than ap4.
-Sanguinary Guard have 1 extra shot at 6" greater range. They also get to reroll ine missed hit in assault each. They can also get st6 ap2 on the charge but at I1. Otherwise it is st4/5 ap3 at initiative. SG have ATSKNF.
Sanguinary Guard are 5ppm (18%) more expensive.

Tomb Blades (with gauss, shield vane and nebuloscope) vs Bikes.
-Tomb blades are twice as durable against everything compared to bikes (apart from st10 ap3 or better), have better st and ap to their guns, has ignores cover and gauss too. They also have an extra 6" turbo boost and get to ignore terrain on their move.
-Bikes have ATSKNF and can pay for upgraded weapons on some of the unit. They have better initiative.
For all these advantages, TBs cost 1ppm more.

Well, I'm not arguing against you, but I do want to clarify some things to better help your argument.

Flayed Ones. Fear is useless 99.9% of the time. Most things ignore it, and most of the time you pass your LD test anyway. It is a free special rule essentially (Though fluff-wise, I'm glad they have it). They also do not have and cannot normally get MTC. That's just formation based units.

Lychguard. You are right with all of those points, but you didn't even compare the Sword and Board Lychguard's survivability against Termies. Shred through anything without a 2+ save, and will not die. Ever.

Praetorians. They are only S5 in CC and in shooting, the S6 pistols give up all of their AP2 for.

Tomb Blades. They are badass. No argument there.

Bunker with escape hatch and luchguard are sorted, especially if they are with a character who has solar staff so they have psudo invisibility on the turn they disembark.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't personally think Lychguard are undercosted by the way. Just in comparison to their equivalents which are overcosted.

Praetorions seem a couple of points undercosted, whilst both tomb blades and flayed ones could do with at least another couple of points.

Praetorians seem fine as they are. 28 points per model is not too cheap.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Having gotten a couple games under my belt (and also having watched all the MWG battle reports featuring the new Necrons) I have to say that going Decurion is like going Unbound. Except Decurion is even better than Unbound. I have yet to lose a game with the decurion and so does MWG.

Unless you're up against an absolute tailored Necron-killing list, the decurion will keep winning you games. It makes your army just so resilient that you end up losing between 1/3 and 2/3rd of your force at most by the end of most games.

So yeah. I personally am already tired of fielding the decurion - it doesnt make for fun games, neither to my opponent nor even to me now. CAD lists can be more varied and more fun for both players.

To me it seems that unbound didn't go over well and players adapted against it, GW being GW are pretty much force feeding the idea down peoples throats until they start asking for more.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
If we compare them in codex then no - there is brilliant internal balance.

Let's compare them to SM that are considered top mid tier to bottom top tier depending on who you are speaking to.

Ccw scouts compared to flayed ones.
-Scouts have ATSKNF, higher initiative, scout and a few weapon options which you pay for.
-Flayed ones have +1ws, 2 more attacks, deepstrike, shred, 4+rp, fear, MTC and ld10.
For 2pts more.

Lychguard compared to termis.
-Lychguard have better suurvivability against small arms (3+/4+rp is as good as 2+ mathematically but t5 is better than t4), have better survivability against ap2 (4+rp compared to 5++) and the same survivability against st10 ap2. They have ap2 I2 attacks so strike before unwieldy. They have armourbane so are lethal against vehicles. Can be given even better surbivability with chronometron, res orb or solar staff. Ld10.
-Termis have ATSKNF, and 1 better st in combat. Also have 2 bolter shots at range. Can take weapon upgrades but pay for them.
Termis are 12ppm (43%) more expensive than lychguard. Termis are cobsidered poor for their points, but as shown above, even if they were 28pts each lychguard would still be better.

Praetorians vs Saguinary guard (alright BA rather than SM)
-Praetorians are as durable as SG against small arms, but more durable against ap2. They hit at ap2 st6 (not just on the charge) before initiative. Their shots are 2 higher strength and ap2 rather than ap4.
-Sanguinary Guard have 1 extra shot at 6" greater range. They also get to reroll ine missed hit in assault each. They can also get st6 ap2 on the charge but at I1. Otherwise it is st4/5 ap3 at initiative. SG have ATSKNF.
Sanguinary Guard are 5ppm (18%) more expensive.

Tomb Blades (with gauss, shield vane and nebuloscope) vs Bikes.
-Tomb blades are twice as durable against everything compared to bikes (apart from st10 ap3 or better), have better st and ap to their guns, has ignores cover and gauss too. They also have an extra 6" turbo boost and get to ignore terrain on their move.
-Bikes have ATSKNF and can pay for upgraded weapons on some of the unit. They have better initiative.
For all these advantages, TBs cost 1ppm more.

Well, I'm not arguing against you, but I do want to clarify some things to better help your argument.

Flayed Ones. Fear is useless 99.9% of the time. Most things ignore it, and most of the time you pass your LD test anyway. It is a free special rule essentially (Though fluff-wise, I'm glad they have it). They also do not have and cannot normally get MTC. That's just formation based units.

Lychguard. You are right with all of those points, but you didn't even compare the Sword and Board Lychguard's survivability against Termies. Shred through anything without a 2+ save, and will not die. Ever.

Praetorians. They are only S5 in CC and in shooting, the S6 pistols give up all of their AP2 for.

Tomb Blades. They are badass. No argument there.

Good points, yeh I was comparing them with the decurion formation abilities. Completely forgot that rods were st5, I need to absorb this codex more.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Good points, yeh I was comparing them with the decurion formation abilities. Completely forgot that rods were st5, I need to absorb this codex more.

Sall good man. Overall though, yeah a lot of our stuff is better than comparative stuff in other codexes, but I think most of our stuff (except Wraiths) are priced appropriately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I was meaning to point out that even in the Decurion, Flayed Ones don't have MTC.

Well, I got already bored playing against them. And you know what? Even without decurion. Played BA and Guard against them. Watched them creaming other armies. Managed 1 win so far. But that was more due to good rolling on my side and bad rolling from my opponent. It always felt like an uphill battle right from the start. Wraths and preatorians are just nuts. As is the resilence of every unit I was facing. My gaminggroup isnt playing very competativly in general, but I soon learned that I have to, if I want at least a bit fun against the new crons. I realised that I was already tailoring lists against crons, but still without success. Our cron player even just started to play them. He bought his first cron models at the end of last year. I offered him an army swap so he can feel how its to be on the receiving side...
you have to be playing against highest eldar cheese and tau riptides en masse to say that this codex is externally balanced. What should all the orks, dark eldar, dark angels etc. do against this?
Another thought: is it even possible to build a weak force? Even the allmighty eldar and tau can build a weak list. Something you could field against your 13 year old, wargaming starting cousin if you want to give him a good game and not beat him in turn 2.

Phew, had to throw that out.

rhavien wrote:
Another thought: is it even possible to build a weak force? Even the allmighty eldar and tau can build a weak list. Something you could field against your 13 year old, wargaming starting cousin if you want to give him a good game and not beat him in turn 2.

It's actively tricky.

That said, three monoliths and a deciever is a decent way to burn 800 points. Take minimum troops because all troops are good here, take a a Lord with a Voidblade and some useless upgrades as your HQ, then fill the rest with... I dunno, scarabs probably.

A lot of lists would struggle to take down 3 monoliths though and a deciever could use the monoliths to hide behind.
Scarabs is a good shout - they are probably the worst unit in the book now.

Hard to kill three, yes, but three battle cannons for 600 points isn't going to wow anyone.

I wouldn't call Scarabs the worst unit though, just awkwardly forced into only working in farm lists that offset their unreasonable buy in price.

@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

I pointed that out in one of those bimonthly "worst army" challenge threads when the book came out- I have no idea how you could intentionally ruin a necron list. Everything is at least a B+ unit. Everything that doesn't get killed by t3 will have most likely paid for itself in either damage caused or tactical trades, like tarpitting. I've already seen a set of 3 scarabs go around an opponent's backfield cleaning up 5 drop pods so that line breaker wouldn't be an issue, while the rest of the army ignored the pods and fought on.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Everything is at least a B+ unit.

The sad thing is, this is true, and is the way every codex should be, unfortunately.

Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

O.o

Uh, I dunno about that. Serpent Spam is still tough for anyone, even Necrons.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

O.o

Uh, I dunno about that. Serpent Spam is still tough for anyone, even Necrons.

Dident take him but one game losing them to mass tomb blades to change his mind.

 Orock wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

O.o

Uh, I dunno about that. Serpent Spam is still tough for anyone, even Necrons.

Dident take him but one game losing them to mass tomb blades to change his mind.

Well...I guess if spamming Tomb Blades is the option, then yeah Serpent spam would die rather easily.

One of my friends actually feels bad enough using the Decurian in friendly games, it takes more firepower to drop a single warrior than it should for the basic troops, so he has chosen to not use that, just using some of the formations, which have been awesome.

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

How? How do those few guys stand a chance against them? Ive seen a 1500 point match at saturday. They never had a chance. Belial tried hard not to suck, but he bit the dust like every one else of his battlebrothers.

even without the Decurion i'm feeling bad with my crons.

i ran what i thought was a very unoptimal list, but i tabled a double riptide tau player at the top of turn 2.

he had:
2 riptides
1 hammerhead with long strike
2 squads of 10 fire warriors
pathfinder squad
and 2 squads of 2 crisis battle suits


my list was
destroyer lord
20 X warrior squad
2 X 10X warrior squad
Triarch Stalker
min squad of scarabs
harvest formation
conclave of burning one - deceiver shard


the blob of 20 was hitting on 2's re-rolling on 1's....goodnight sweet everything within rapid fire range

niv-mizzet wrote:
I pointed that out in one of those bimonthly "worst army" challenge threads when the book came out- I have no idea how you could intentionally ruin a necron list. Everything is at least a B+ unit.

This is very true. It is literally impossible to take a bad unit out of this codex. Sure, some are better than others, but there is no equivalent of Wyches or Hellions in this book. Even Eldar have Banshees as their albatross unit.

I am baffled by the new Necron codex as it is completely out of synch with ever other 7th edition codex, thus far. Good for Necron players, but bad for everyone else. At this point, I don't even care if they "fix" Eldar and Tau with new codexes any more, as they've already given us an Eldar 2.0.

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

I swear every Necron thread turns into a bunch of necron players going, "We're not that bad, we just have a strong codex" and glossing over the massive cheese that is buffed reanimations and underpriced units.

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

satire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
Delusion: The thread.

So much denial, I thought I was in egypt for a minute.

You know its really bad when your local area's That Guy switches from eldar to necrons because "eldar are weak now".

OFC I would start building eldar right before this cron stuff dropped.

My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Feeling a bit bad about it.

I've not lost with it yet, and in some of those games I didn't even lose a single unit.

Its like playing on easy mode.

The only weakness of the list is the lack of psychic defense, but this can be largely mitigated.

Murrdox wrote:
My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Again, it all comes down to what he's fielding in the Decurion. I played a 1500 point game a few nights ago against someone still learning the game, so I took it easy on him. I played a very basic Reclamation Legion, a minimum Destroyer Cult, and 2x 10 man Flayed One units. He was using a Captain with the relic jump pack and Stormshield and all that goodness, with Sanguinary Guard, 8 Termies with Claws and a Librarian, A Libby Dreadnaught and 5x Death Company in a Stormraven, some tac squads, some bikes, and some scouts.

He had never played against Necrons yet, so I felt I handicapped myself a good bit. Footslogging troops, I had a single Warscythe as my AP2, no fliers, no vehicles, very basic. We played Maelstrom, and I helped him along the way as much as I could. First 2 turns there was no first blood, until he killed his own Libby with perils. His Stormraven tore apart a unit of Flayed Ones, and Death Company and Sang Guard tore through units of Destroyers (Though the DC were tied up for a few combats). At the end of the game, He had his Stormraven, his librarian dreadnaught, a single Sang Guard, and a Tac squad left. I had a single unit of Destroyers, My overlord and some of his immortals, both squads of warriors were at about half strength, and my D-lord with his flayed ones had most of their unit intact. I had to say, he did rather well for being a newbie, and I really only won because of how the TacOs played out. (I think the score was about 11-5)

I don't think it matter much about your skill level when it comes to fighting Necrons, and honestly, it depends on what formations their bringing in the Decurion. If you're playing someone spamming Wraiths in Harvests, sure, that sucks. I can make casual lists still, and have them perform well, but not break the game. Though next time he might wanna actually see what wraiths are capable of. >.>

I don't feel bad, but I think I might suck with necrons. I have assault armies, and I have that strategy down pretty well. a 24" shooting army feels odd. First game I lost little. Played against DE and was tabled. You should have seen my wraiths die. 4 wounds = 1 dead wraith. I think I will try a foot slog army soon, but I only own about 40 warriors and nor much else outside of vehicles.

Pretty much the only way to make a "bad" Decurion is to neglect your Reclamation Legion. As long as your invincible gunline horde is set it doesn't matter too much which supplementary forces you take.

Decurion is a meta changer, so people who copy current net lists and follow trends will have a lot of trouble until information starts becoming available about how to adapt. Basic Decurion units like Warriors, Immortals and Tomb Blades really only die when you cover them all with a S8 AP3 template, or enormous amounts of high-strength AP3 melee attacks. Most lists aren't bringing that to the table. The main reason is before Decurion, they didn't need too!

One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

Counters are out there, but you're not going to see them in common use until every army figures out how to pull it all together into something of a TAC list. Obviously what works on IKs is going to completely flop with Necrons. So that's not going to be easy.

Well, the new Khorne Daemonkin codex runs a similar formation that gives some nice bonuses with some cumbersome minimal requirements. We'll see soon enough how well it compares to the Decurian. Getting a free blood tithe point and ability each turn isn't bad, but the biggest problem are the units in the various detachments, they simply aren't as good and have some pretty hefty minimal requirements. This was a missed opportunity to fix alot of the busted Khorne units in both SM and CD books, but according to early rumors, nothing was changed from a rules or points perspective.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Again, it all comes down to what he's fielding in the Decurion. I played a 1500 point game a few nights ago against someone still learning the game, so I took it easy on him. I played a very basic Reclamation Legion, a minimum Destroyer Cult, and 2x 10 man Flayed One units. He was using a Captain with the relic jump pack and Stormshield and all that goodness, with Sanguinary Guard, 8 Termies with Claws and a Librarian, A Libby Dreadnaught and 5x Death Company in a Stormraven, some tac squads, some bikes, and some scouts.

He had never played against Necrons yet, so I felt I handicapped myself a good bit. Footslogging troops, I had a single Warscythe as my AP2, no fliers, no vehicles, very basic. We played Maelstrom, and I helped him along the way as much as I could. First 2 turns there was no first blood, until he killed his own Libby with perils. His Stormraven tore apart a unit of Flayed Ones, and Death Company and Sang Guard tore through units of Destroyers (Though the DC were tied up for a few combats). At the end of the game, He had his Stormraven, his librarian dreadnaught, a single Sang Guard, and a Tac squad left. I had a single unit of Destroyers, My overlord and some of his immortals, both squads of warriors were at about half strength, and my D-lord with his flayed ones had most of their unit intact. I had to say, he did rather well for being a newbie, and I really only won because of how the TacOs played out. (I think the score was about 11-5)

I don't think it matter much about your skill level when it comes to fighting Necrons, and honestly, it depends on what formations their bringing in the Decurion. If you're playing someone spamming Wraiths in Harvests, sure, that sucks. I can make casual lists still, and have them perform well, but not break the game. Though next time he might wanna actually see what wraiths are capable of. >.>

What are you trying to proove? Read your post again. So you played against a new player, won by a lenght, didn't loose much from your army while beating his.

rhavien wrote:


What are you trying to proove? Read your post again. So you played against a new player, won by a lenght, didn't loose much from your army while beating his.

The point was he was a fresh player, and did VERY well against me. The Decurion didn't break the game or anything, and it's usually people bringing the Canoptek Harvest and the like that give it a bad name.

Yoyoyo wrote:
One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

A LRBT firing its Battle Cannon and snapfiring all 3 Heavy Bolters kills about 3.15 non-decurion Necron Warriors, or 39 points.

5 Rough Riders charging 3 Tomb Blades have 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds. 1.66 dead.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Decurion is a meta changer, so people who copy current net lists and follow trends will have a lot of trouble until information starts becoming available about how to adapt. Basic Decurion units like Warriors, Immortals and Tomb Blades really only die when you cover them all with a S8 AP3 template, or enormous amounts of high-strength AP3 melee attacks. Most lists aren't bringing that to the table. The main reason is before Decurion, they didn't need too!

One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

I have trouble accepting these assertions.

LRBT's aren't particularly great. An LRBT with heavy bolter sponsons is 170pts. It can only snap-fire those heavy bolters if it fires its main gun, making those heavy bolters largely ineffective and pointless. That main guns effectiveness is extremely variable, it's dependent not just on scatter, but on enemy model spread and the simple number of models that are there at all. Cover likewise is a gigantic issue for it, as often (if not usually) the target will have a 4+ or at least a 5+ cover save with a competent opponent and a properly set up table, at least if they're not super close.

Yeah, they're scare if you land a pieplate on target against a good sized unit, clumped up and in the open. Outside of that, they're not actually killing that much.

With regards to Rough Riders, a full unit of 10 getting a charge off onto a unit of Tomb Blades that are part of a Decurion, assuming zero casualties before getting stuck in and no "reroll 1's" on reanimation protocols, the Rough Riders will kill 2-3, and if combat goes to another round the RR's will likely lose subsequent combats (and will be wounding on 6's instead of 4's). That said, we're talking about a T3 5+sv Ld7/8 infantry unit almost assuredly won't make it in, or won't make it in with any strength, against even a half-way competent opponent, and overwatch from even a 5man Tomb Blade squad is probably going to kill 2 or 3 RR's by itself.

Chalking everything up to just a "meta shift" is a big disingenuous. We've had armies with 3+ armor and 4+ FNP around, (Plague Marines) they're not unknown in tournaments, and they don't have the same effect, largely because such units are far more expensive than their Necron counterparts. The Decurion and formations giving huge survivability bonuses for zero additional points cost gives them Plague Marine resiliency at basic Tac marine cost essentially.

Typhon battle tank hooooy!

Even then it's only killing 2/3's of what it would against anyone else. Even less if we're talking wraiths or chronometrons being involved.

rhavien wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
My friend JUST started playing 40k. He picked up Necrons a month before the new book came out.

Since the new codex, he's won 5 out of 5 games that he's played. He's a total newbie and he's stomped veterans who've been playing 40k for a decade or more. Now, granted he's a good strategy gamer, but still. This is his first miniature game besides Battletech.

Even he is feeling bad about playing Decurion. It's simply WAY too powerful. He's looking into doing other things instead going forward. The Decurion formation is so powerful that we're seriously considering in our gaming group seeing how a 1500 point Decurion list stacks up to 2000 point lists from other armies. Depending on the opponent army, several of us still think that even with a 500 point handicap, the Decurion still has a good shot at winning.

Again, it all comes down to what he's fielding in the Decurion. I played a 1500 point game a few nights ago against someone still learning the game, so I took it easy on him. I played a very basic Reclamation Legion, a minimum Destroyer Cult, and 2x 10 man Flayed One units. He was using a Captain with the relic jump pack and Stormshield and all that goodness, with Sanguinary Guard, 8 Termies with Claws and a Librarian, A Libby Dreadnaught and 5x Death Company in a Stormraven, some tac squads, some bikes, and some scouts.

He had never played against Necrons yet, so I felt I handicapped myself a good bit. Footslogging troops, I had a single Warscythe as my AP2, no fliers, no vehicles, very basic. We played Maelstrom, and I helped him along the way as much as I could. First 2 turns there was no first blood, until he killed his own Libby with perils. His Stormraven tore apart a unit of Flayed Ones, and Death Company and Sang Guard tore through units of Destroyers (Though the DC were tied up for a few combats). At the end of the game, He had his Stormraven, his librarian dreadnaught, a single Sang Guard, and a Tac squad left. I had a single unit of Destroyers, My overlord and some of his immortals, both squads of warriors were at about half strength, and my D-lord with his flayed ones had most of their unit intact. I had to say, he did rather well for being a newbie, and I really only won because of how the TacOs played out. (I think the score was about 11-5)

I don't think it matter much about your skill level when it comes to fighting Necrons, and honestly, it depends on what formations their bringing in the Decurion. If you're playing someone spamming Wraiths in Harvests, sure, that sucks. I can make casual lists still, and have them perform well, but not break the game. Though next time he might wanna actually see what wraiths are capable of. >.>

What are you trying to proove? Read your post again. So you played against a new player, won by a lenght, didn't loose much from your army while beating his.

Yeah, I was a bit confused by this as well. By your own admission you took it easy on him and brought a sub-optimal list (by Necron standards)...and you still almost tabled him. You said he had a single Dreadnaught, a flyer, one Sang Guard, and one Tac squad left. And you still had a unit of Destroyers, some Immortals, two partial squads of Warriors, and most of your D-Lord + Flayed Ones unit. And you won by more than double his VP score? Sounds like quite the moral victory for your opponent.

First of all, sloppy calc on the Rough Riders, my bad. I still want to pursue this though.

I don't disagree with what you guys are saying. But this discussion is the process of adaptation itself, where we weigh new ideas, discard what doesn't work, and find what does. I'm repeating your own words, Vak -- Decurion and formations give huge survivability bonuses for zero additional points. That's exactly why it's significant to the meta. Why? You simply cannot throw fire against Decurion points-for-points and get results. So really your only option is to outmanuever it or try something radically different. A lot of popular netlists rely on shooting attack output, that's what's popular to weigh effectiveness on the forums right now, and Decurion upsets that.

That's the thing. It's easy to say "5x Rough Riders kill 1.67 Tomb Blades, not gonna work". But a TL-Punisher on a Vulture, a "good" weapon, only kills 2.2! And it can't lock the unit in CC. Find some way to buff the squad, and they will eventually wear down the remainder. If not, maybe you just hold them in assault and focus on the rest of the board.

I'm not saying "Rough Riders are good". I'm just saying Decurion is going to shake things up. Same with the LRBT. How can I reduce scatter? How can I manipulate the board to get units to clump up? Is there a better platform that can give me a S8 AP3 blast and lots of Bolters so it's not useless when the template effectiveness tails off? What options do I unlock with Enfeeble? Of course I don't have the answer -- I started thinking about this today! But that's the process that's going to happen, someone will find something that works, and eventually everyone else will copy it. If nothing else, Infantry are slow and have short-range. Bikes are expensive. So I'm sure eventually someone will have the answers, even if I don't today.

I don't feel bad. I still feel good.

I like that I can play Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers and put together something resembling a Terminator-style army that looks like one and actually plays like one.

Yoyoyo wrote:
snip.

It is more of an example that IG sucks as 7th ed codex and that is all. Good armies have anwsers to other good armies, unless they are direct counter builds. IG can't deal with good builds even, if it takes ally. In fact the "good" way to play IG is to ignore all units that are not wyverns, multi CAD and hope that the opposing army isn't flying or mounted up.

I see necron players here saying come up with a counter.. my gaming group of roughly 12 thought long and hard and have though of one.. we don't play our necron guy j/k haha. He uses the old codex cause he is to cheap to buy the new one.

Quad heavy bolters. 3 in a battery. No gauss benefit as T7 and not a vehicle. Puts out 18 tl bs4 st5 ap4 shots. That's an average of 16hits. 5.33 dead warriors after 4+rp (assuming no chronometron or res orb). Makes it's points back in 2 turns.

Yoyoyo is right in the fact that it will help change the meta - hard hitting reliable assault units could sweep most crons units fairly easily. As long as the opponent doesn't have many wraiths, lychguard or praetorians.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Quad heavy bolters. 3 in a battery. No gauss benefit as T7 and not a vehicle. Puts out 18 tl bs4 st5 ap4 shots. That's an average of 16hits. 5.33 dead warriors after 4+rp (assuming no chronometron or res orb). Makes it's points back in 2 turns.

Yoyoyo is right in the fact that it will help change the meta - hard hitting reliable assault units could sweep most crons units fairly easily. As long as the opponent doesn't have many wraiths, lychguard or praetorians.

Not even that, sadly. I've had warriors charged by Bloodcrushers and Nobz....and I've come out on top.

Quad heavy bolters sound great against warriors standing in the open with no cover. Terrible against the entire remainder of the codex though. People forget most Necrons units have a 3+.

Good point.


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Although they are so far as I've found, mathmatically the best weapon point for point against wraiths.

The problem with the Decurion really isn't its power on its own, but rather it represents the same league of power as IK, Eldar, Daemons and Tau, the clear outlying codexes. Guard, SM (and their colours), GK, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and so on are all going to get wrecked, most of the time, by their dramatically higher power. Even without the Decurion, it would be very difficult for these codexes if not tailored, the Decurion just makes it obscene.

The really damning thing is this came after so many codexes got the "blandification," with little to no customization, cut characters, removed rules or special abilities and added maybe one or two "meh" units. It wasn't very exciting, but it looked like there was some effort to balance things out. Necrons destroyed that trend, and make it exceptionally clear that balance isn't on the agenda, and only some armies will get to have fun (I mean that both in fluff/flexibility, as the Decurion is great for that, but also power. Hard to build a bad Necron, Eldar, Tau, etc army, so you can really use whatever units you like. That is patently untrue for other codexes).

As to whether one should feel bad about using the Decurion, depends entirely on the foe. Using it against a fluffy Guard or Ork player should make you feel bad, and people should call you out on being unfair, against power-gaming Eldar or Tau? All the power to you, it's clearly what it was designed around.

I do not feel bad AT ALL! :-)

I am an infantry player, do not like maxed or broken list so I played the Necron list in the previous codex and it was useless. I refused to play flying circus.
I will not change it because it now seems to work just as it did 2 editions and 2 codex ago and how Necrons are supposed to work.
But i do keep my list flexible and a bit of everythng, nothing maxed.
And when i faced a 6 Eldar Wave serpents + 2 wraithknights list, the Necrons did not stand a chance because they were not fast enough to get close enough to the wave serpents standing on the table edge: 0 killpoints.

The Necron lists where people max out on wraiths are too extreme for my taste though.
Same players that played croissants and barges with the previous codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additional...

In regard to other armies. I play most of them too.

Orks are the worst codex IMO. The boyz are less reliable than ever (and i play them since they exist) and they are vulnerable to many of the current broken units:
Wave serpents, thunderfire cannons, Knights with big template weapons etc.

IG has a problem indeed, unless you play mass infantry with psykers.

SM can do well enough especially with all allllied combos and the thunderfire cannons (they are so common, they bore me...).

Dark Eldar have changed. But they are not a bad army and allways were an army that needed a good player.

I don't find Tau that much of a problem to play against, especially the riptides and suits, they are SOOoo predictable.
And my own Tau are, since day 1 of the Tau, a drone and kroot heavy army that is above all flexible and large.

Eldar without Wave Serpents are not a problem either.

Imperial Knights have only 1 problem: the fact that they explode. IMO that is the most dangerous and rediculous thing about them really. They do best when they go down.

Daemons have been a problem for several years now.
Unless you make an army that is prepared against them, they can be a big problem.

And to get back to the original question: i don't feel bad in regard to my Necron.

I don't feel to bad about running necrons. I can't run decurion because I have no tomb blades (i just really don't like the look of the model....)

But it feels good to shove it to a local SW player who spams TWC and other stuff. Last game I played him he used his demon army and pulled out the 2++ re-roll bs and when I asked what the toughness for what one of his guys where he said four and purposely neglected to tell me he had a toughness bump from being on a mount so when i was rolling to wound with my warriors he "corrected" me saying that they wound on 5+ instead of 4+. He gave up the game after failing to kill my sword and board lychguard with orkan in them with his nurgle plague guys in cc

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The problem with the Decurion really isn't its power on its own, but rather it represents the same league of power as IK, Eldar, Daemons and Tau, the clear outlying codexes. Guard, SM (and their colours), GK, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and so on are all going to get wrecked, most of the time, by their dramatically higher power. Even without the Decurion, it would be very difficult for these codexes if not tailored, the Decurion just makes it obscene.

In what world are Tau (and IK) in the same league as Eldar and Daemons but SM and Codrx: Flyrants aren't?

I do agree that Necrons break a lower-powered Codex trend.

However, maybe it's.tine for IoM players stop judging stuff on a codex vs. codex base exclusivly. 'Half of the factions in this game are my Battle-Brothers' is a rule IoM armies have, and as such it should be taken into account in.balance discussion.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I don't see how the units are an issue, other than Wraiths, who could've easily been 5-10 points more expensive. Every unit got cheaper than in the previous codex and most received buffs, but none of them are undercosted in my opinion.

I think Warriors, surprisingly, are undercosted. They cost less than a tac marine, but have the same or better statline in all respects except for I and armour save -- and they are about as durable as a marine even with that worse armour save due to RP. In the Decurion with a Cryptek they are more durable than a tac. Due to how RP now works, in the Decurion they will now stand up to said marines in close combat, meaning that equivalent numbers of marines pretty muuch have no way to reliably take down warriors.

What I would have down is bring their WS and BS to 3 (shuffling zombies!) and cost to 10 ppm. I think.


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 MajorStoffer wrote:
The problem with the Decurion really isn't its power on its own, but rather it represents the same league of power as IK, Eldar, Daemons and Tau, the clear outlying codexes. Guard, SM (and their colours), GK, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and so on are all going to get wrecked, most of the time, by their dramatically higher power. Even without the Decurion, it would be very difficult for these codexes if not tailored, the Decurion just makes it obscene.

Intuitively, Dark Eldar and Tyranids seem the best against Wraiths, at least. Due to high volume of poison attacks.

The issue facing the necron decurion is similar to that which effects SM white scars.

The listed points in the codex tend to be fair, but they do not take into account army-wide special rules that dramatically alter the power of a unit.

For example: SM bikes for 21 points are fine, but SM bikes with scout, hit and run, +1 str hammer of wrath and pseudo skilled rider for the same cost are not.

Similarly then, increasing the RP roll of an entire necron army, as well as providing formation special rules like moves through cover, relentless, destroyer protocols etc, for no extra cost is where a lot of the imbalance arises.

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

How do Deathwing lists have a field day against anything?

Their ranged weapons are too sparse, so they're relying on Power Fists or Thunder Hammers to actually kill enemy units. Despite being low I, Necrons will strike first, and you get RP against their H2H attacks. Necrons will roflstomp Deathwing all day long even if played by a 5 year old.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The issue facing the necron decurion is similar to that which effects SM white scars.

The listed points in the codex tend to be fair, but they do not take into account army-wide special rules that dramatically alter the power of a unit.

For example: SM bikes for 21 points are fine, but SM bikes with scout, hit and run, +1 str hammer of wrath and pseudo skilled rider for the same cost are not.

Similarly then, increasing the RP roll of an entire necron army, as well as providing formation special rules like moves through cover, relentless, destroyer protocols etc, for no extra cost is where a lot of the imbalance arises.

Good summary. This is essentially the issue with all the Necron formations, the Decurian especially.

Even as it stands in the main codex, WITHOUT any formations, most of the Necron infantry are under-costed, IMO.

MajorStoffer wrote:
The really damning thing is this came after so many codexes got the "blandification," with little to no customization, cut characters, removed rules or special abilities and added maybe one or two "meh" units. It wasn't very exciting, but it looked like there was some effort to balance things out. Necrons destroyed that trend, and make it exceptionally clear that balance isn't on the agenda, and only some armies will get to have fun (I mean that both in fluff/flexibility, as the Decurion is great for that, but also power. Hard to build a bad Necron, Eldar, Tau, etc army, so you can really use whatever units you like. That is patently untrue for other codexes).

This is basically the case. The last few codexes had been doing a great job of leveling the playing field a bit. Not perfectly of course, but better than past codexes like Eldar and Tau. Now suddenly Necrons come along and they throw the whole thing out of proportion.

Warriors, Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, and Wraiths are ALL under-costed units in the main Necron book. Even with no formations added, Games Workshop put out an obscenely powerful codex that doesn't fall in line with any of the other more recent and better-balanced codexes.

When you add some of their formations, especially Decurian, into the formula which enhances units that are already over-optimized and under-costed, it throws their power-level even higher.

Alcibiades wrote:
I think Warriors, surprisingly, are undercosted. They cost less than a tac marine, but have the same or better statline in all respects except for I and armour save -- and they are about as durable as a marine even with that worse armour save due to RP. In the Decurion with a Cryptek they are more durable than a tac. Due to how RP now works, in the Decurion they will now stand up to said marines in close combat, meaning that equivalent numbers of marines pretty muuch have no way to reliably take down warriors.

What I would have down is bring their WS and BS to 3 (shuffling zombies!) and cost to 10 ppm. I think.

You forgot the fact that they lack ATSKNF, pistols, frag&krak, have +2 LD and their guns can glance vehicles / wound anything on a 6.

Actually I think making the Necron Warrior cost 14 points, the Immortal 18 points and the Tomb Blade 20 points base would have balanced things out.


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 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

How do Deathwing lists have a field day against anything?

Their ranged weapons are too sparse, so they're relying on Power Fists or Thunder Hammers to actually kill enemy units. Despite being low I, Necrons will strike first, and you get RP against their H2H attacks. Necrons will roflstomp Deathwing all day long even if played by a 5 year old.

you cannot outshoot a decurion. The best way to tackle a decurion is close combat. Necrons in general struggle against massed 2+ save armies. Deathwing is an army that consists entirely of 2+ saves; can get into cc-easily (deepstrike), and can mix-match stormshield guys to tank those few AP2 shots Necrons can throw at them, and twin-linked heavy weapons the turn they DS for some initial ranged firepower.

There are few Necron units that can hurt terminators in cc: Praetorians, the barge lord, the destroyer lord, the c'tan and tomb spyders. When going toe to toe with TH/SS terminators though, these units dont have the upper hand.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think Warriors, surprisingly, are undercosted. They cost less than a tac marine, but have the same or better statline in all respects except for I and armour save -- and they are about as durable as a marine even with that worse armour save due to RP. In the Decurion with a Cryptek they are more durable than a tac. Due to how RP now works, in the Decurion they will now stand up to said marines in close combat, meaning that equivalent numbers of marines pretty muuch have no way to reliably take down warriors.

What I would have down is bring their WS and BS to 3 (shuffling zombies!) and cost to 10 ppm. I think.

You forgot the fact that they lack ATSKNF, pistols, frag&krak, have +2 LD and their guns can glance vehicles / wound anything on a 6.

Actually I think making the Necron Warrior cost 14 points, the Immortal 18 points and the Tomb Blade 20 points base would have balanced things out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
@rhavien: are you kidding me? dark angels Deathwing lists are going to have a field day against Necrons

How do Deathwing lists have a field day against anything?

Their ranged weapons are too sparse, so they're relying on Power Fists or Thunder Hammers to actually kill enemy units. Despite being low I, Necrons will strike first, and you get RP against their H2H attacks. Necrons will roflstomp Deathwing all day long even if played by a 5 year old.

you cannot outshoot a decurion. The best way to tackle a decurion is close combat. Necrons in general struggle against massed 2+ save armies. Deathwing is an army that consists entirely of 2+ saves; can get into cc-easily (deepstrike), and can mix-match stormshield guys to tank those few AP2 shots Necrons can throw at them, and twin-linked heavy weapons the turn they DS for some initial ranged firepower.

There are few Necron units that can hurt terminators in cc: Praetorians, the barge lord, the destroyer lord, the c'tan and tomb spyders. When going toe to toe with TH/SS terminators though, these units dont have the upper hand.

Deathwing can't possibly throw enough H2H attacks at Necrons to make a difference, and every Terminator they lose is a severe blow. We're talking about an army that fields under 30 models at 1,500 points.

A full Terminator squad is swinging 3 Powersword attacks and 12 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge. 6 hit, 5 wound, probably 3 or 4 dead Warriors. That's assuming that they even get the charge. More than likely, they DS and the next turn Wraiths charge in and completely roflstomp the squad. Game over, thanks for playing.

DW simply can't touch the better Necron units - Wraiths and Night Scythes laugh at DW. 2+ saves aren't really all that when you're paying over 40 ppm.

Alcibiades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I don't see how the units are an issue, other than Wraiths, who could've easily been 5-10 points more expensive. Every unit got cheaper than in the previous codex and most received buffs, but none of them are undercosted in my opinion.

I think Warriors, surprisingly, are undercosted. They cost less than a tac marine, but have the same or better statline in all respects except for I and armour save -- and they are about as durable as a marine even with that worse armour save due to RP. In the Decurion with a Cryptek they are more durable than a tac. Due to how RP now works, in the Decurion they will now stand up to said marines in close combat, meaning that equivalent numbers of marines pretty muuch have no way to reliably take down warriors.

What I would have down is bring their WS and BS to 3 (shuffling zombies!) and cost to 10 ppm. I think.

I have to respectfully disagree. Warriors aren't bad, by any means of the imagination, but they're not overcosted. The Init and lack of wargear is a big thing. Space Marines have options, good wargear, ATSKNF, and a better armor save. Warriors are durable, yes, but can get swept in CC, and excel at killing vehicles and that's about it. No customization, and they can be tougher, but only with other models to buff them. All Necrons should stay with WS/BS 4, it just makes sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:


This is basically the case. The last few codexes had been doing a great job of leveling the playing field a bit. Not perfectly of course, but better than past codexes like Eldar and Tau. Now suddenly Necrons come along and they throw the whole thing out of proportion.

Warriors, Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, and Wraiths are ALL under-costed units in the main Necron book. Even with no formations added, Games Workshop put out an obscenely powerful codex that doesn't fall in line with any of the other more recent and better-balanced codexes.

When you add some of their formations, especially Decurian, into the formula which enhances units that are already over-optimized and under-costed, it throws their power-level even higher.

I won't argue against Wraiths being undercosted, but Flayed Ones? Destroyers? You know these were the same price in the old Codex, and sucked horribly, right? And they had minimal changes, and stayed the same cost. Flayed Ones just gained a CC weapon, and Destroyers are now more mobile, and have an additional wound. That's it. I don't see how they're over-optimized, since we lack variety on most of our units. Destroyers can kill Marines, they've always done that. Flayed Ones have had a ton of attacks, always. Why are we complaining now? Decurion aside.

Oh wait.....you were actually being serious about deathwing......lol.

The only way deathwing can have the slightest chance of winning vs any standard army, is by utilizing their landraiders.
If they don't do this then they are going to be shot off the board and if not totally tabled, then at least dominated in terms of victory points.

Guess with army eats landraiders?

Also, terminators cannot sweeping advance, meaning that winning a combat vs a large necron unit does not result in the unit being removed.



I think with regards to melee a lot of people are still thinking in terms of the old reanimation protocol rules. With 5th ed dex, you really didn't want most of your crons in cc, because losing combat and running meant no RP rolls and a potential wipe.

With the new rules, with RP acting as a super fnp roll, the cron units are more durable meaning they lose less guys, because they lose less guys they get more attacks back, and both of these combined with their str 4 attacks and LD10 make them a challenging opponent for most non dedicated melee units. Beating necrons in cc isn't the great tactic that it once was. I haven;t regretted charging my relentless necron warriors yet.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think Warriors, surprisingly, are undercosted. They cost less than a tac marine, but have the same or better statline in all respects except for I and armour save -- and they are about as durable as a marine even with that worse armour save due to RP. In the Decurion with a Cryptek they are more durable than a tac. Due to how RP now works, in the Decurion they will now stand up to said marines in close combat, meaning that equivalent numbers of marines pretty muuch have no way to reliably take down warriors.

What I would have down is bring their WS and BS to 3 (shuffling zombies!) and cost to 10 ppm. I think.

You forgot the fact that they lack ATSKNF, pistols, frag&krak, have +2 LD and their guns can glance vehicles / wound anything on a 6.

Well yeah but these don't affect the Warriors vs. Marines dynamic,e xcept LD really which I forgot to write. The point is that they are undercosted relative to Marines, or Marines overcosted relative to them.

on the other hand, overly expensive Warriors mean that Undead Zombie Hordes become undoable.

So I suggested reducing WS and BS. Which is irrelevant since GW will not do it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

I won't argue against Wraiths being undercosted, but Flayed Ones? Destroyers? You know these were the same price in the old Codex, and sucked horribly, right? And they had minimal changes, and stayed the same cost. Flayed Ones just gained a CC weapon, and Destroyers are now more mobile, and have an additional wound. That's it.

These aren't exactly minor buffs. Gaining an additional wound is *huge*, and with the way RP works now, applying instantly against each wound and not just at the end of the phase against the last wound, is a gigantic increase in survivability, not to mention being able JSJ move to hide/get cover after shooting. That's an outstandingly gigantic survivability boost. Likewise, for Flayed Ones, the survivability increase offered by the new RP functionality coupled gaining an attack (from two CC weapons) and Shred and AP5 is also gigantic, drastically increasing their killing power, nearly doubling their effectiveness against MEQ's and increasing killing power against GEQ's by 250% (with 5A on a charge each, effectively giving them a wound output against MEQ's equal to 4 charging Tac marines) while increasing their survivability as well.

These aren't minor buffs. One could argue that these units probably needed a bit of boosting, and that would probably be correct, however these went overboard.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think Warriors, surprisingly, are undercosted. They cost less than a tac marine, but have the same or better statline in all respects except for I and armour save -- and they are about as durable as a marine even with that worse armour save due to RP. In the Decurion with a Cryptek they are more durable than a tac. Due to how RP now works, in the Decurion they will now stand up to said marines in close combat, meaning that equivalent numbers of marines pretty muuch have no way to reliably take down warriors.

What I would have down is bring their WS and BS to 3 (shuffling zombies!) and cost to 10 ppm. I think.

You forgot the fact that they lack ATSKNF, pistols, frag&krak, have +2 LD and their guns can glance vehicles / wound anything on a 6.

Well yeah but these don't affect the Warriors vs. Marines dynamic,e xcept LD really which I forgot to write. The point is that they are undercosted relative to Marines, or Marines overcosted relative to them.

on the other hand, overly expensive Warriors mean that Undead Zombie Hordes become undoable.

So I suggested reducing WS and BS. Which is irrelevant since GW will not do it.

I'm not seeing necron warriors themselves as being particularly undercosted in comparison to marines.

Marines get:
ATSKNF
pistols (shooting before charge, which warriors cannot do without decurion or warlord trait)
krak grenades (good vs MCs as well as vehicles)
Special/combi/heavy weapons
Sergeants (with potential wargear like meltabombs, good for eating a challenge)
Combat squads
Chapter tactics
Access to (objective secured) drop pods and rhinos
Initiative 4
3+ save

Necron warriors get:
Same durability vs small arms fire (non AP4) for a cheaper price. (It takes 6 bolter hits to take down both a marine and a non-decurion necron warrior)
Better durability vs heavy weapons
Ability to glance vehicles
LD10
Access to ghost arks

When you list it all out, it becomes apparent that the marines do have a lot of small advantages over the necrons. All in all I think the points for the base units are fine.

However, the decurion and formation bonuses really make a difference.
If we include these then the warriors will also get relentless, move through cover, and a much improved RP roll (an increase of around 24% chance if the warriors are within 12 of the overlord, 58% chance of reanimation vs non ID weapons)).

These bonuses are what puts the necron warriors over the top imo, rather than the base cost.

I think that any one of the special rules the Decurion detachment would be fair - 4+ RP, move through cover, relentless. Giving all for free seems more like a apoc ability. Toss in things like destroyers getting extra wounds for free, wraiths getting +1T for free, 3+ invlun shields for free, I really have to wonder who in the hell thought this would be even marginally balanced.

I mean, I played an apoc game where 20 nobz (waaagh banners, eavy armor, power klaws/big choppas, FNP, warboss support) charged 20 warriors, WARRIORS, and lost combat.

If that doesn't illustrate how broken necrons are, I don't know what can.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think that any one of the special rules the Decurion detachment would be fair - 4+ RP, move through cover, relentless. Giving all for free seems more like a apoc ability. Toss in things like destroyers getting extra wounds for free, wraiths getting +1T for free, 3+ invlun shields for free, I really have to wonder who in the hell thought this would be even marginally balanced.

I mean, I played an apoc game where 20 nobz (waaagh banners, eavy armor, power klaws/big choppas, FNP, warboss support) charged 20 warriors, WARRIORS, and lost combat.

If that doesn't illustrate how broken necrons are, I don't know what can.

Did he pop a res orb or anything? Because if not, he probably just got really lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

These aren't minor buffs. One could argue that these units probably needed a bit of boosting, and that would probably be correct, however these went overboard.

Well, that what they did, a "bit" of boosting. What other changes would these otherwise lackluster and poor units could have undergone to be more usable?

My thoughts on this:




Naw just kidding.

Meh, I play Ork. Every battle is an uphill battle. 1 day, I will have a decent army and will be able to appreciate the win I get because it won't be 'all luck' (it never is, but it always feel like it).

Before going off on how 'broken' Decurion is, one should spend some time thinking about the United Colors of the Imperium, the United Colors of Eldar, and Chaos Daemon factories.

We Necron players have no Battle Brothers to fill in the gaps.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think that any one of the special rules the Decurion detachment would be fair - 4+ RP, move through cover, relentless. Giving all for free seems more like a apoc ability. Toss in things like destroyers getting extra wounds for free, wraiths getting +1T for free, 3+ invlun shields for free, I really have to wonder who in the hell thought this would be even marginally balanced.

I mean, I played an apoc game where 20 nobz (waaagh banners, eavy armor, power klaws/big choppas, FNP, warboss support) charged 20 warriors, WARRIORS, and lost combat.

If that doesn't illustrate how broken necrons are, I don't know what can.

Did he pop a res orb or anything? Because if not, he probably just got really lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

These aren't minor buffs. One could argue that these units probably needed a bit of boosting, and that would probably be correct, however these went overboard.

Well, that what they did, a "bit" of boosting. What other changes would these otherwise lackluster and poor units could have undergone to be more usable?

Destroyers are, I think, maybe slightly undercosted (consider them as Crisis Suits with FNP and Preferred Enemy instead of possible markerlight support). I think Flayed Ones are just too good. Than again (he says, thinking), an assault unit that cannot take a transport and does not have someting like Fleet or jump ability or any grenades had better be good.

I have to say that at first glance it seemed over powered.

I can also say, that if you happen to want an exact list that a decurion builds, you can make a powerful list.

However, I can also say, that the decurion is incredibly restricting in list building. You might not think so, until you actually try to build some lists with it.

For example; I love destroyers and stalkers (I think the triarch stalker is one of the coolest models I own).

However, what if I just want to field 3 destroyers.
Can't, I have to field 500 points worth (well, 470, but who runs a nakked d lord).
What if I just want a stalker? Can't 400 points.

Now, don't get me wrong, its hard to call the praetorians a "tax" as they are good - but what if you didn't want them?

Likewise, you want a named overlord and a command barge...have to buy the royal court, and the extra lord and cryptek. Again, they are good...but what if you did not want them.?

Imagine building a marine list where if you wanted snipers you had to buy a storm and another squad of scouts.
Or if you wanted a squad of termies you had to buy a land raider?
Are those bad units. No, not at all, but you did not want them.

Oh, and the codex does have bad units - the monliths actually got worse, and ctan still fall like cardboard (not to mention the gack shooting).

So, yeah, I think some of the decurion bonuses are a bit much, but unless its a waac cookie cuter player, he had to give up some things for it.

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

davethepak wrote:
I have to say that at first glance it seemed over powered.

I can also say, that if you happen to want an exact list that a decurion builds, you can make a powerful list.

However, I can also say, that the decurion is incredibly restricting in list building. You might not think so, until you actually try to build some lists with it.

Which honestly makes it even sillier. It basically forces you to either build one of a fairly limited set of power builds, or an awkward mess where you minimise formations to try to awkwardly cram more in.

Next time GW, drop the Ever Living bonus, split the core detachment into a choice of two or three interchangable cores and make the command formation mandatory but with low minimums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

Their gate lost it's exile mode, and now has extra restrictions.

-Eject units at the beginning of the movement phase rather than at any point.
-Infantry and Jump Infantry only.

In exchange we get to worthlessly snap fire at S5 instead of S4.

 Sir Arun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

Well, they have a lot of problems
- the biggest of which is they can't shoot their main weapon (S8ap3 large blast, ordnance) without forcing their secondary weapons to snap fire
- they can mishap landing on a guardsman.
- they can't move more than 6 (for heavy, which due to ordnance gives them nothing).
- they can get immobilized on a tuft of grass (which is silly for a flying pyramid).

None of these things got fixed. I mean, most necron players would have happily given up Ordanance on the particle whip - which would have been a buff!

Worse, they lost their warp gate, which at least was a minor threat (and a lot of fun, actually) to assaulting infantry.

I love the model, and the fluff on them is very cool (and them being able to spit out infantry from reserve can be cool) but they are a string of disappointments otherwise.

Overall, the internal balance on the book is VERY good....with few exceptions (monolith and ctan on the bad end, and tomb blades and decurion spiders on the other).

I feel frustrated. The decurion makes Necrons finally feel like Necrons. Reanimation protocols on 5+ was never anything worth relying on. Unfortunately, I've now got a fairly extensive collection of models I can't use due to the restrictive formations. All the extra unit taxes make it difficult to bring in my chaos marine allies too.
I can run non-decurion lists, but I feel like I'm holding back and nerfing my own army by doing so. They made the decurion too good.
I was interested in the daemon kin codex coming out, but it looks like it is doing the same thing. Sigh...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well, that what they did, a "bit" of boosting. What other changes would these otherwise lackluster and poor units could have undergone to be more usable?

Not made Flayed ones killier than Khorne Berzerkers for one

But to be frank, Shred effectively increases their effectiveness as much as if they were A5 base (even more on a charge), and they just have no business being *that* killy. If they're going to get Shred, I'd dump them down to A2 base instead of A3 (or just not counted Flayer claws as a distinct 2xCCW wargear and made Shred apply to the unit instead of the weapon) and left off the AP5. They'd still be more effective than they were against infantry targets, just not quite so absurdly so.

Likewise, Destroyers, easiest fix would have been to give them an extra shot. 3 S5 AP3 Gauss shots a turn on a T5 RP unit with high mobility & Preferred Enemy Everything would be worth 40pts, and you could have just dropped the price on Heavy Destroyers by 15ppm instead of 10 *and* giving them an extra wound.

Here are some more crazy ideas to wargame.

Pushing a 100pt Dreadnought into a Warrior mob will force LD8/LD9 morale checks the remainder of the game unless your opponent commits another unit to peeling it away. Everyone is afraid of Gauss but one day a smart guy will figure out a way to get past it. Blind checks, Snap Shots, or some kind of save maybe?

Wraiths can be countered with a 10-man ASM squad, 2x Jump Librarians with Force Mauls/Digital Weapons and a Jump Chaplain to make sure everyone hits. I did some quick stats and it seems promising despite it's expense. If you add Psychic Shriek you may wipe them on the charge, and then that mini-star becomes a nightmare to everything else.

Land Speeders are not a hard counter but a 75pt Typhoon Speeder can go toe-to-toe with 3x Tomb Blades at 66pts, with greater range and firepower. They Jink, you don't.

Nothing is the whole story though, you can't win with a list. These suggestion don't "work". You have to actually win on the table and that's where the human factor makes things complicated. Failing a few times will be inevitable until everyone works out how to apply their ideas. What Decurion and Wraiths will do without question is force two new items to check off in list building. "How do I deal with massed resilient units (3+/4++)", and "What is my dedicated counter-assault capability?" Nobz are not going to cut it, you need 400+pts of MegaNobz and a faster unit to pin the Wraiths so you can leverage as many Furious Charge PK attacks as possible. If Necron brings 500+ points of A+ assault into his list, maybe you need to start thinking bigger too.

People were complaining about nothing but S6/S7 spam in the meta and assault being completely pointless, right? Well, guess what... I think that's no longer the case!

If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau. Army wide 4+ FnP too good, being able to maintain that constant amount of turn 1 firepower because your stuff doesnt die is too good.

davethepak wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

Well, they have a lot of problems
- the biggest of which is they can't shoot their main weapon (S8ap3 large blast, ordnance) without forcing their secondary weapons to snap fire
- they can mishap landing on a guardsman.
- they can't move more than 6 (for heavy, which due to ordnance gives them nothing).
- they can get immobilized on a tuft of grass (which is silly for a flying pyramid).

None of these things got fixed. I mean, most necron players would have happily given up Ordanance on the particle whip - which would have been a buff!

Worse, they lost their warp gate, which at least was a minor threat (and a lot of fun, actually) to assaulting infantry.

I love the model, and the fluff on them is very cool (and them being able to spit out infantry from reserve can be cool) but they are a string of disappointments otherwise.

Overall, the internal balance on the book is VERY good....with few exceptions (monolith and ctan on the bad end, and tomb blades and decurion spiders on the other).

Again, I have to disagree. The Monolith is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a gun platform. So look at it as a cheaper Land Raider with a freaking Battle Cannon, OR, some now S5 shots that can also chip off hull points on vehicles. On top of that, it has IWND 6+, has access to MTC and can precision strike (Formation benefits), ignores half the vehicle damage chart (Land Raiders can't do that), and can tactically spit out any unit you have in reserves or on the board (Again, huge advantage over the Land Raider) all for a measly 200 points. That is not a very steep price at all for everything you get. Sure, you can't spit out dudes the turn you deep strike (unless you take the formation), but then otherwise you have MTC from Decurion, and it got indirectly buffed with the fact that Silver Tide is now a very scary, very good strategy, and they can be used for tactical board control. You cannot throw them into any old list and expect it to work, but instead build your list around planning on using it a lot. Also, think about a lot of power builds. Serpent Spam, Draigostar, Screamerstar. You know who could easily deal with a ton of AV14 vehicles? Not many of them. Not many of them at all.

I have considered getting a second one, personally.

 krodarklorr wrote:

davethepak wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

Well, they have a lot of problems
- the biggest of which is they can't shoot their main weapon (S8ap3 large blast, ordnance) without forcing their secondary weapons to snap fire
- they can mishap landing on a guardsman.
- they can't move more than 6 (for heavy, which due to ordnance gives them nothing).
- they can get immobilized on a tuft of grass (which is silly for a flying pyramid).

None of these things got fixed. I mean, most necron players would have happily given up Ordanance on the particle whip - which would have been a buff!

Worse, they lost their warp gate, which at least was a minor threat (and a lot of fun, actually) to assaulting infantry.

I love the model, and the fluff on them is very cool (and them being able to spit out infantry from reserve can be cool) but they are a string of disappointments otherwise.

Overall, the internal balance on the book is VERY good....with few exceptions (monolith and ctan on the bad end, and tomb blades and decurion spiders on the other).

Again, I have to disagree. The Monolith is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a gun platform. So look at it as a cheaper Land Raider with a freaking Battle Cannon, OR, some now S5 shots that can also chip off hull points on vehicles. On top of that, it has IWND 6+, has access to MTC and can precision strike (Formation benefits), ignores half the vehicle damage chart (Land Raiders can't do that), and can tactically spit out any unit you have in reserves or on the board (Again, huge advantage over the Land Raider) all for a measly 200 points. That is not a very steep price at all for everything you get. Sure, you can't spit out dudes the turn you deep strike (unless you take the formation), but then otherwise you have MTC from Decurion, and it got indirectly buffed with the fact that Silver Tide is now a very scary, very good strategy, and they can be used for tactical board control. You cannot throw them into any old list and expect it to work, but instead build your list around planning on using it a lot. Also, think about a lot of power builds. Serpent Spam, Draigostar, Screamerstar. You know who could easily deal with a ton of AV14 vehicles? Not many of them. Not many of them at all.

I have considered getting a second one, personally.

His primary point is that it's been nerfed from already being considered weak.

And yes, it has been nerfed. Losing the offensive option of the gate, being unable to move before disembarking units through it and only being allowed to reposition infantry and jump infantry are bigger losses than 1 point stronger snap firing or regaining hull points on a 6.

No, it's not a gun platform, but it is nothing more than 200 points of glorified Leman Russ with the power to reposition things to one specific footslogging speed spot.

changemod wrote:


His primary point is that it's been nerfed from already being considered weak.

And yes, it has been nerfed. Losing the offensive option of the gate, being unable to move before disembarking units through it and only being allowed to reposition infantry and jump infantry are bigger losses than 1 point stronger snap firing or regaining hull points on a 6.

No, it's not a gun platform, but it is nothing more than 200 points of glorified Leman Russ with the power to reposition things to one specific footslogging speed spot.

It was nerfed in one aspect of the Eternity Gate. Otherwise, stayed the same if not got better. I've used them a few times now with great success. But sure, if you want some more of the point-n-click units, that works too.

 krodarklorr wrote:

changemod wrote:


His primary point is that it's been nerfed from already being considered weak.

And yes, it has been nerfed. Losing the offensive option of the gate, being unable to move before disembarking units through it and only being allowed to reposition infantry and jump infantry are bigger losses than 1 point stronger snap firing or regaining hull points on a 6.

No, it's not a gun platform, but it is nothing more than 200 points of glorified Leman Russ with the power to reposition things to one specific footslogging speed spot.

It was nerfed in one aspect of the Eternity Gate. Otherwise, stayed the same if not got better. I've used them a few times now with great success. But sure, if you want some more of the point-n-click units, that works too.

I've already spelled out twice that the Eternity Gate received three separate small nerfs.

Given that the entire unit is built around the utility of said gate, that's really, really bad.

 KingCorpus wrote:
If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau.

Did the lists you played against possess:

- Dedicated counter-assault? Like, 400+ point mini-deathstars that can reliably kill Wraiths?
- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I'm thinking, probably not. Surprise -- if you don't bring those two key points, Necrons are probably going to win. Having an army that upsets the meta is very powerful. Look at the lists that went to the LVO final. I just disagree in that I expect players will eventually adapt. Right now everyone is going to get stomped. That will give them the motivation to scrap their list to try out something new. Even if they can't figure it out themselves, they will eventually just copy the first people bright enough to figure out the tactical puzzle.

It's just my opinion man. But unless every alternative in every codex has been thoroughly explored, I'm still thinking it's a little early to start begging either your opponent or GW for mercy. If it's not competitive, feel free to tailor the game to your enjoyment.

I think IG players would kill for LRBTs having side and rear armor upped to 14 for 50 extra points, as well as 1 extra hullpoint, the ability to DS, disembark stuff from reserve, better snapfiring damage output and regain the odd hullpoint back.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau.

Did the lists you played against possess:

- Dedicated counter-assault? Like, 400+ point mini-deathstars that can reliably kill Wraiths?
- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I'm thinking, probably not. Surprise -- if you don't bring those two key points, Necrons are probably going to win. Having an army that upsets the meta is very powerful. Look at the lists that went to the LVO final. I just disagree in that I expect players will eventually adapt. Right now everyone is going to get stomped. That will give them the motivation to scrap their list to try out something new. Even if they can't figure it out themselves, they will eventually just copy the first people bright enough to figure out the tactical puzzle.

It's just my opinion man. But unless every alternative in every codex has been thoroughly explored, I'm still thinking it's a little early to start begging either your opponent or GW for mercy. If it's not competitive, feel free to tailor the game to your enjoyment.

What sort of 400+ point minideaths can deal with wraiths and the of the army at the same time?

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think IG players would kill for LRBTs having side and rear armor upped to 14 for 50 extra points, as well as 1 extra hullpoint, the ability to DS, disembark stuff from reserve, better snapfiring damage output and regain the odd hullpoint back.

I had no clue Russes were that expensive. I've seen three guard tanks in a 500 point list on multiple occasions.

Still yes, checked the guard codex and you're right. With that perspective I'm more impressed than I was before.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here are some more crazy ideas to wargame.

Pushing a 100pt Dreadnought into a Warrior mob will force LD8/LD9 morale checks the remainder of the game unless your opponent commits another unit to peeling it away. Everyone is afraid of Gauss but one day a smart guy will figure out a way to get past it. Blind checks, Snap Shots, or some kind of save maybe?

Wraiths can be countered with a 10-man ASM squad, 2x Jump Librarians with Force Mauls/Digital Weapons and a Jump Chaplain to make sure everyone hits. I did some quick stats and it seems promising despite it's expense. If you add Psychic Shriek you may wipe them on the charge, and then that mini-star becomes a nightmare to everything else.

There's a few issues with this. First it's dependent on getting the charge off and not getting charged, not always easy. Second, you'd need to be running more than a single traditional CAD to fit all those HQ's in. Third, we're talking at a minimum nearly 500pts (assuming no extra wargear or weapons but jetpacks for the HQ's and a powerfist for the squad).

Now, on a charge, assuming no casualties at all and that the Wraiths do not have Whip Coils (which would allow them to strike first) nor RP, the squad, Pfist Sergeant, and Chaplain will inflict an average of 3.66 wounds on the Wraiths. The Librarians will inflict an average of 1.6 wounds (depending on allocation this can be gimmicked by applying the Force wounds to already wounded models).

So, under the most optimal of circumstances, leveraging a ~500pt unit, and favorably rounding both of those numbers up and assuming no wound allocation gimmicks, you'll kill 4 Wraiths. Not terrible, but you're investing twice the Wraith's value (and 4 FoC slots, one of which must be obtained from a 2nd detachment) to do so. If they've got whip coils, the efficacy is reduced, if the unit takes casualties before engaging, the efficacy is reduced, both of these are highly likely. Lets assume they've got Whip Coils and you lose 3 guys from the unit before engaging (such a unit would be high priority for shooting, but we'll just assume 3). By the time any of the SM's get to strike, they've already lost 6 or 7 models, and they on average inflict 1.5 wounds less (roughly one less Wraith dead) and the Wraiths hit back harder, and the next round of combat the Librarians only inflict an average of 1 wound (which again, may kill a Wraith outright or may get allocated to a Wraith with a wound already) and the rest of the unit inflicts an average of 1 wound, and so by the end of round 2 you're likely down to a Sergeant, 1 Assault Marine, 2 Librarians, and 1 Chaplain and likely still have 2 Wraiths left. If we continue on, yes, the SM unit eventually defeats the Wraiths, but has been heavily depleted, and ultimately you've used a ~500pt unit to defeat a 270pt unit.

Emperor help you if they brought 2 or 3 such units of Wraiths or if they were part of a Canoptek Harvest, or if the Wraiths get to charge.

So, this tailored unit that won't do terribly well against many other armies, is costing roughly twice what the Wraiths do and requiring multiple detachments, and is only really going to be effective under very specific conditions and won't be able to do it twice if there's another unit of Wraiths.

Land Speeders are not a hard counter but a 75pt Typhoon Speeder can go toe-to-toe with 3x Tomb Blades at 66pts, with greater range and firepower. They Jink, you don't.

Well, the Land Speeder wouldn't get any benefit out of Jink either way if the TB's have nebuloscopes

As is, even assuming no Decurion bonuses and not JInking, with two missile shots and a heavy bolter being shot into them, you'll average 0.96 wounds from a Land Speeder Typhoon. If they do have Decurion & Reclamation Legion bonuses and Jink,, the Typhoon will inflict an average of 0.37 wounds. Now, granted in can outrange the Tomb Blades, but the Tomb Blades are fast too, and one turboboost puts them just about anywhere they want to be. Once in optimal range, they can inflict 0.61 HP's on the Typhoon per turn even when Jinking, and 1.77 HP's if not Jinking.

Aside from the range advantage, it would appear that the Tomb Blades would have an advantage.

Don't forget the 13x Pistols and HoW, they count. And killing 4-5x Wraiths on a charge is definitely "not terrible". It might even be useful.

For Speeders, range advantage is something you need to exploit. One thing, as the Tomb Blades get whittled down, their firepower tails off. It's not a hard counter but Necrons have no hard counter except being swept in assault! If he really wants to jump into Rapid Fire range, hit him with a fast assault unit to deny Jink and armour saves. And then direct firepower with the Typhoons on exposed targets where the HB and Krak will shine. Have you heard the term "asymmetrical warfare"? Don't go toe-to-toe with Necrons. Exploit your advantages instead of bashing your fist against a brick wall.

I think the fact we're even discussing this shows that there are unexplored options out there. How exactly are these untouched Wraiths attacking ASM that have magically taken 3x casualties? Are they just hanging out getting shot for no reason inside the 24" engagement range of the Necrons? If they bring more Wraiths, bring more ASM, and bounce your HQs from squad to squad. Why aren't you looking for solutions yourself?

Anyways, as Polyranger said, you will want a lot of Heavy Bolters messing up everything at range. Attrition won't win the game but every little bit will help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
What sort of 400+ point minideaths can deal with wraiths and the rest of the army at the same time?

About 15x ID wounds will down a 5-strong Wraith squad. So it's a tall order but maybe not impossible. You also need to do it quick (1-2 rounds) so your unit isn't locked in combat the whole game. Or somehow get Hit and Run so you can refocus your unit if needed.

Snipers might have some utility too, they slip by the T5 and their low AP makes little difference due to the Invul save. I haven't looked at that yet though.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I believe the biggest problem is that there is no such thing, outside of apocalypse.

Can you list a few cost effective and efficient ways of scrubbing out a blob of decurion immortals?

All of the usual MEQ killers are so much worse. Plasma and grav are 50% less effective vs necrons for example.

A cover ignoring str D blast is the only thing that comes to mind.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't forget the 13x Pistols and HoW, they count. And killing 4-5x Wraiths on a charge is definitely "not terrible". It might even be useful.

Hammer of Wrath applies if they use jump packs in the assault phase, but that shortens their movement phase, potentially leaving them out of distance, you may only get to use it some of the time depending on distances. I did forget the pistols though, yes that nets an average of 1 more wound.

For Speeders, range advantage is something you need to exploit. One thing, as the Tomb Blades get whittled down, their firepower tails off. It's not a hard counter but Necrons have no hard counter except being swept in assault! If he really wants to jump into Rapid Fire range, hit him with a fast assault unit to deny Jink and armour saves. And then direct firepower with the Typhoons on exposed targets where the HB and Krak will shine. Have you heard the term "asymmetrical warfare"? Don't go toe-to-toe with Necrons. Exploit your advantages instead of bashing your fist against a brick wall.

Again, the with range advantage, it'll likely only apply for one turn. Those Jetbikes can get just about anywhere on the table in one turn, and, as shown, if they're getting Decurion benefits, it's entirely likely that the Land Speeder will fail to do anything before the TB's can close range and engage. If we're having to involve a fast assault unit on top of this, then we're devoting an inordinate number of points to dealing with a relatively basic unit that really shouldn't have the resiliency to require this much killing power to successfully engage.

And that's really the whole point, Necrons can engage 1v1 with many if not most of their units and come out on top, whereas their opponents have to engage with superiority to have any chance of success, and if the Necrons engage with superiority there just isn't anything many opponents can do to escalate to match. There's just too much resiliency shrugging off too much killing power.

I think the fact we're even discussing this shows that there are unexplored options out there. How exactly are these untouched Wraiths attacking ASM that have magically taken 3x casualties?

While not a bad point to bring up, the Wraiths are much less likely to have taken casualties due to their increased resiliency, and while individually larger models, can often hide better because of the smaller total number of models. Their invul save also makes it so they don't have to worry as much about taking cover on the way in to engaging, they're very much a point-click-win unit.

, bring more ASM, and bounce your HQs from squad to squad. Why aren't you looking for solutions yourself?

You can only bring so many ASM to match. If you're in a tournament or league setting, you likely can't tailor your list in this manner. Trying to hop HQ's from unit to unit is incredibly complex and situational, and heavily dependent on not being engaged simultaneously by the Necron player while also having your units close enough for those HQ's to be able to bounce around and not already be locked in combat.

Ultimatley we're talking about the Necron player being able to bring a smaller force, drive them straight up without much of any thought, and engaging successfully under any but the worst circumstances, while the counter is to not only bring a far larger (pointswise) force, but to have to play it far better as well, and engage on the most favorable terms to emerge victorious. If that's not the definition of wildly imbalanced, I don't know what is.

Sure, some of these things might work some of the time. The problem is that we're paying far more points and having to play these units far more intelligently than the Necron player to come out on top, and even then it's not unlikely that all that's accomplished is mutual desctruction of a disproportionate number of points, leaving the Necron player with more to throw at you after you've blown your load.

Vak, it will take victories on the table to start convincing people, as they say seeing is believing. As with most creative challenges the solutions may not be immediately apparent. But we all need to start thinking laterally. Has anyone tried the Assassinorum formation to fight Decurion? I really don't think we've exhausted all our options, just the ones we've already tried.

I actually agree with you about "having to play these units far more intelligently than the Necron player to come out on top". Decurion maybe is too strong to be used in casual games. That's similar to a lot of other units across a lot of different armies. But in competition it's your job to play more intelligently, to come out on top -- that's the essence of what determines who the best are, and that's the whole point.

So for now I'm witholding judgement. As with all things, time will tell.

Well, crons are a very forgiving and easy to play now. Good for new players. We need new blood, so i guess it's fine.

One thing to note as well that there is no way to negate the Reanimation Protocols. If you use an ID weapon, it just drops it by one, but if there is, say, a cryptek in a big block of warriors they'll still have a 5++/4++ against a D template.

That's silly.

Anways, reading a few comments here, it seems that several people believe the decurion has a place given the various shenanagins available to other top tier armies and stupid combos someone abusing the "Imperial Faction" can produce, but there's a key difference here; the Decurion is a fluffy, straightforwards mega-power right in the codex requiring little imagination to create. A total fluff bunny will end up with a codex-annihilating force. Part of me is pleased with that, but it also represents a big structural problem; most Imperial armies these days are at the lower end of the power spectrum; the stupid changes to the allied matrix provides great opportunity for insanity, but it's always really obvious to both the person doing it and to the other guy when the army gets unpacked that said player is a cheesy git. Necrons, much like Eldar are so innately powerful that even a nice list will be very powerful, and playing to a distinct theme will result in the annihilation of their foes via the Decurion (might like a Wraith list is; totally fluffy, stupid powerful).

I want the rules to reinforce themed armies, encourage and reward them, but not at the expensive of massive codex/formation imbalance.

Honestly, these formations need to learn a thing from early Apocalypse; have a points cost commensurate to their power. In what universe is Strike Force Ultra (termies with hammer of wrath when they charge out of a transport and can run+shoot after deepstriking) equal to making your entire army almost impossible to kil?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
One thing to note as well that there is no way to negate the Reanimation Protocols. If you use an ID weapon, it just drops it by one, but if there is, say, a cryptek in a big block of warriors they'll still have a 5++/4++ against a D template.

That's silly.

I think you need to check the RP rules again.

RP rolls cannot be taken against str D hits.

Str D and ID are not the same thing.

That's why I said str D blast, and "removes from play" blasts, are some of the few effective methods at removing a necron squad.

The title of this is ridiculously childish and condescending, and I have no idea why no one has mentioned it yet.

No, I don't feel bad. Necrons are incredibly resilient - and decently killy. This comes at a high unit tax, inability to take battle brothers, and lack of psychic powers.

That's the problem with referring to things in a vacuum - the Necrons biggest weaknesses is the lack of synergy and buffs in those two areas. Or is someone going to tell me that Doom, Guide, Invisibility, Iron Arm, etc. isn't useful.
Yes, they're hard to kill, and that tends to leave a stronger impression than being killy. But what you see is what you get in a very absolute sense.

Now if we can do without the rude attitude towards Necron players, that'd be great. -And you'd seem emotionally older than 13.

Thing is, the ally matrix is so poorly implemented thst there's almost no way to please everyone.

If you aim to balance codex vs. codex, people that want to play competitively codexes without ally shenanigans (like orks, nids, tau, necrons) will complain because they're stuck with what's in their codex while their opponents can cherry pick grom half a dozen different codexes.

If you aim to balance taking ally shenanigans into account, people that just want to play faction X because they like it will complain that they need to ally in order to compete.

Ferros wrote:
The title of this is ridiculously childish and condescending, and I have no idea why no one has mentioned it yet.

Because, and I say this as someone with over ten thousand points of Necrons and only six models of anything else, he's right to phrase it that way.

The Necron codex is high powered as is specifically because it has little to no buffing options. No unit sergeants or psykers, for example. No specialists. Nevertheless, there's now a very diverse range of options for building strong lists that can cover a wide range of themes and deal with anything well except for maybe FMC spam.

The reclamation legion has some very nice and fluffy command benefits, and the other formations are good list building tools. It's not a perfect setup, but including CAD as an option too means there's interesting flexibility and benefits.

The Decurion though? Army wide free buff worth a minimum of 30 points per unit. Probably more since there's no need to pay for a character and the buff stays no matter who dies.

Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

No unit sergeants or psykers, for example.

Amusingly that's a point in that favor in some cases, CSM has nothing they can gain boons from and they don't rely on the sarge for any special rules or to deal with anything that may fail.

The Decurion though? Army wide free buff worth a minimum of 30 points per unit. Probably more since there's no need to pay for a character and the buff stays no matter who dies.

Should've made it stop on death of overlord or warlord, so that it would at least have some sort of counter (or if warlord is in reserve).

changemod wrote:
The Decurion though...Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

I regularly, in 'casual' games am facing Imperial Knights and the IoM's very broad spectrum of LoW optons (which is what IKs should be), IoM allies out the ying-yang, Eldar allies (now new and improved with the clowns), and Daemon Factory lists (the kind that add half your opponents army points to his army before the game is done).

So no, I don't feel bad. I feel like I'm reaching par.

 jasper76 wrote:

changemod wrote:
The Decurion though...Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

I regularly, in 'casual' games am facing Imperial Knights and the IoM's very broad spectrum of LoW optons (which is what IKs should be), IoM allies out the ying-yang, Eldar allies (now new and improved with the clowns), and Daemon Factory lists (the kind that add half your opponents army points to his army before the game is done).

So no, I don't feel bad. I feel like I'm reaching par.

Preach it, man. I wouldn't feel bad in your situation. Though, at my local shop, I do rather feel bad. I play against fluffy AM lists, Khorne Daemons, CSM, and Farsight most of the time, so even a simple Decurion list has proven a bit much for them to handle.

The biggest hindrance to a non-decurion formation heavy list, from a list building perspective, is that Flayed Ones and Deathmarks are non-formation choices, and Lychguard and Tomb Blades are Reclamation Legion. You can get quite a lot back with either a Resurgence Decurion from White Dwarf or a CAD, but you lose out heavily on the spammability of Elites choices.

Of course, you could just make a Destroyer Cult or Royal Court your primary and go unbound, if your meta isn't one of those that are reactionary against unbinding.

Methinks I'll take another look at the Zarathusa and Anrakyr formations, though I suspect they'll be overly unweildy for the benefits.

 jasper76 wrote:

changemod wrote:
The Decurion though...Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

I regularly, in 'casual' games am facing Imperial Knights and the IoM's very broad spectrum of LoW optons (which is what IKs should be), IoM allies out the ying-yang, Eldar allies (now new and improved with the clowns), and Daemon Factory lists (the kind that add half your opponents army points to his army before the game is done).

So no, I don't feel bad. I feel like I'm reaching par.

Now while i understand that and agree with that part, As Ive said when this subject gets brought up, considering all the other 7th codexs were getting toned down and now the rumors are we will see SM, Tau, possibly Eldar this year, all of which hopefully are getting toned down to the 7th level (Pre necrons) if they get toned down like eveyone wants wont that then leave necrons as the issue?

The hope shouldve been everything was getting balanced and fun theme lists , not oh look something else thats on level with the other crazy stuff.

From looking at the rumors for this new Khorne codex, I'll believe that SM and Eldar are toned down when I see it.

What I suspect will be more likely to happen, is Decurion-style detachment options will become the norm with each codex. Its in GW's interest to do so, for obvious reasons.

 jasper76 wrote:
From looking at the rumors for this new Khorne codex, I'll believe that SM and Eldar are toned down when I see it.

Many thought the same would happen to Necrons, but alas...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
From looking at the rumors for this new Khorne codex, I'll believe that SM and Eldar are toned down when I see it.

Many thought the same would happen to Necrons, but alas...

I mean, all of the cheese Necrons had was toned down.

They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Hollismason wrote:
They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Umm, also make Smashgakker not a thing.

Oh right that to. Honestly what's weird is the Necron Codex more than any other leans toward super units.

I feel that's the way the army is intended to be played with giant unkillable blobs.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh right that to. Honestly what's weird is the Necron Codex more than any other leans toward super units.

I feel that's the way the army is intended to be played with giant unkillable blobs.

Kind of, yeah. I feel (as OP as people might think it is) Necrons actually represent overall what they're supposed to be. A unkillable horde of marching undead robots.

Which, is fine, but the issue is that they need to pay points for that which they really aren't.

I mean, much the same could be said of many Eldar lists, they aren't particularly unfluffy most of the time, even if they're the stereotypical "5 wave serpents, 2 Wraithknights+psychic support" type deals.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Umm, also make Smashgakker not a thing.

You do realize they just gave khorne chaos the shield eternal in power armor form right? Khorne lord on juggy with two powerfists for even more attacks at str 9

 BlackArmour wrote:


The hope shouldve been everything was getting balanced and fun theme lists , not oh look something else thats on level with the other crazy stuff.

I fail to see how that hope was based on.fact. While thr codexes were being toned down l, I don't really think most of them encouraged 'balanced and themed lists'.

For example, tyranids are all about Flyrants (as many as you can fit for most list. Grey Knights also seem to be all about NDK spam and using Draigo to teleport centstars around.

I think that thing is 50 points or higher in the Codex it may actually be one of the most expensive Wargear items but yes.

Also, he has more attacks than Smash dude.

Please don't tell anyone.

( if he joins a unit of Blood Letters from the formation and charges a unit that outnumbers them +1 A this is a maybe)

If he picks the Level 4 Blood Tithe +1 A.
He has a juggernaut +1 A.
He has two Powerfists +1 A.
He get's Rage +2 Attacks.

He has 8 to 9 attacks on the charge.

Just need to figure out how to get him Hatred.

 Orock wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Umm, also make Smashgakker not a thing.

You do realize they just gave khorne chaos the shield eternal in power armor form right? Khorne lord on juggy with two powerfists for even more attacks at str 9

Yes, but it's not a 3++ save. At best that have a 4++, which is reasonable. They also don't have a 2+ save. 2+/3++ FNP Eternal Warrior 4 wound dude on a bike is a bit more insane, if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
I think that thing is 50 points or higher in the Codex it may actually be one of the most expensive Wargear items but yes.

Also, he has more attacks than Smash dude.

Please don't tell anyone.

( if he joins a unit of Blood Letters from the formation and charges a unit that outnumbers them +1 A this is a maybe)

If he picks the Level 4 Blood Tithe +1 A.
He has a juggernaut +1 A.
He has two Powerfists +1 A.
He get's Rage +2 Attacks.

He has 8 to 9 attacks on the charge.

Just need to figure out how to get him Hatred.

Run him up with a Herald with a locus? (Loci? Whatever it's called)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which, is fine, but the issue is that they need to pay points for that which they really aren't.

I mean, much the same could be said of many Eldar lists, they aren't particularly unfluffy most of the time, even if they're the stereotypical "5 wave serpents, 2 Wraithknights+psychic support" type deals.

Theyre paying an opportunity cost however- want to field a decurion at all? You must take X, Y, Z in excess of a nromal CAD minimum requirement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which, is fine, but the issue is that they need to pay points for that which they really aren't.

I mean, much the same could be said of many Eldar lists, they aren't particularly unfluffy most of the time, even if they're the stereotypical "5 wave serpents, 2 Wraithknights+psychic support" type deals.

Theyre paying an opportunity cost however- want to field a decurion at all? You must take X, Y, Z in excess of a nromal CAD minimum requirement.

All of it, however, is good.

Tactical marines are a tax, Ork Boyz are a tax to many, Guard platoons are considered taxes to some. Necron Warriors and Tomb Blades are not a tax, especially in a decurion; they are objectively good units without Decurion buffs, and only get better.

Tactical marines don't get better. You either chose the right chapter tactics which elevate them from bad to "meh," or they're gak. Necron Warriors start of good, better than most standard troops I'd argue, somewhere around Guard Veterans and Fire Warriors, but being the most durable troops in the game rather than having especially high firepower. The Decurion makes them as durable, if not slightly more durable than Tactical Terminators, and tomb blades? Ignore cover jetbikes with guns which would make Tau jealous.

Doesn't sound like a tax to me, and certainly not an opportunity cost. What would you be taking instead of the Decurion options?

When you attempt to build a Decurion list, the taxes and opportunity costs become quite apparent.

Sure Warriors are good. So are Immortals. But in my meta, Immortals might as well be Warriors. IIRC, that's an 85 point minimum tax right there I would not be inclined to spend otherwise.

Tomb Blades are good but they're not the second coming. I'm coming around to them what with IC now, but in all honesty, I wouldn't be inclined to put them in lists over Destroyers or Wraiths, so there's an opportunity cost.

Now I have my Reclamation Legion, I go to choose a first Auxiliary. Do I want only Heavy Destroyers as my Heavy Support? Can't have. Do I want to take a single Annihilation Barge? Can't do. Do I want to take a single Doomsday Ark? No sir. Can I bring Crypteks? Sure, but I have to bring another Overlord and a Lord to even have 1 in my list unless I go with a secondary CAD. Can I bring a Triarch Stalker? Not without 2 very expensive Elites, which I wouldn't be inclined to take because they need to get to close to be good, and my meta is full of CC nastiness. Dare I run Wraiths? I can, and it will be good, but it will cost me dearly in the form of a Spyder and a swarm of Scarabs per unit of Wraiths.

The points run out quick when you are meeting the requirements for these Decurion formations, and you can only pick from these formations.

"Oh look! Cheese is on sale at the store, but I have to buy a small piece of the popular cheese that I don't want in order to take advantage".

Complaining about Decurion taxes is a joke. What you get in return for the units you don't want (for some reason) is worth much more than what you pay and you still get to use those units on top of the formation bonus.

I wasn't comparing Decurion taxes to anything esle, just refuting the asserion that there are no taxes and opportunity costs.


Unless you meant "complaining"??? In which case, I'm not trying to do that either. I really like the new Decurion and 4+ RP army-wide. It's strong, and make Necrons play on the board more like how I feel they should.

And while I wouldn't normally be taking Immortals or Tomb Blades, I agree its a small price to pay for the benefit, and the price does add useful units to your army.

I understand that there may be an opportunity cost and being handcuffed into spending points on a unit you would not normally take could be slightly annoying, but I would hesitate to call Immortals or Tomb Blades a tax. They are both good units. Now, they may not be as good as Wraiths or as cost effective as basic Warriors, but you can still expect them to perform reasonably well. If you were forced to take Wyches or Hellions in order to get that sweet 4+ RP, THAT would be a tax.

Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

I won a Ferrari in a Tim Hortons cup. My insurance goes up 3xFold. That is an unwanted tax. (but i still get the Ferrari)

Yes, and sometimes you cannot afford the tax (too low a points limit, literally cannot afford to buy new models, etc) meaning you dont get to use the ferrari, even if it is otherwise "free".

 Nate668 wrote:
How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

Are you kidding?

Necron Warriors are flat-out one of the best infantry units in the ENTIRE GAME for the points value now. Forget about Decurion for a moment, they're still crazy powerful. Their offensive output is not "low" they have one of the best infantry weapons of any army out there! They autowound anything, even a Wraithknight, on a 6! They autoglance vehicles on a 6! Even Eldar with their Shuriken weapons and Tau with their Pulse weapons can't do both those things!

You can take equal points tactical marines and equal points Necron Warriors and the Necrons will shoot the Marines off the table, just because the Necrons will likely out-live the marines. Who the heck cares if they have "Objective Secured" or not at that point?

Then you add in the bonuses for Decurion to the Warriors and they become REALLY insanely good.

Yeah, the massed gunline a Reclamation Legion forces you to play, and honestly it'll be more like forty or fifty guns than the mandatory 28 once you've kitted units out appropriately, can easily gun down anything it isn't forced to snap fire at.

Strength 4 might be merely the standard guns measure upwards from, but a lot of it is still a lot of it and Gauss is a guarantee of potential harm.

 Nate668 wrote:
How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

Really, I've never had OS take precedence this much, It's nice but it's still tacked onto a worthless unit like a tac squad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

That's exactly the way I feel. Nothing in the codex is bad, but I don't wanna always have to bring Praetorians to bring a stalker, and so on and so forth. Thus, it does still fall into the category of "tax".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and sometimes you cannot afford the tax (too low a points limit, literally cannot afford to buy new models, etc) meaning you dont get to use the ferrari, even if it is otherwise "free".

My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:
How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

Are you kidding?

Necron Warriors are flat-out one of the best infantry units in the ENTIRE GAME for the points value now. Forget about Decurion for a moment, they're still crazy powerful. Their offensive output is not "low" they have one of the best infantry weapons of any army out there! They autowound anything, even a Wraithknight, on a 6! They autoglance vehicles on a 6! Even Eldar with their Shuriken weapons and Tau with their Pulse weapons can't do both those things!

You can take equal points tactical marines and equal points Necron Warriors and the Necrons will shoot the Marines off the table, just because the Necrons will likely out-live the marines. Who the heck cares if they have "Objective Secured" or not at that point?

Then you add in the bonuses for Decurion to the Warriors and they become REALLY insanely good.

Yeah, Ojsec Tac Marines really aren't going to win against Necron Warriors. And saying their damage output is low is probably because you likely spam as many Plasma Guns or Melta guns in your Tac marines as you can. Yeah, we "only" have bolt guns, that can do literally anything, and also kill infantry with weight of fire.

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

Remember that discussion about Typhoons versus Tomb Blades we had a while back? It dawned on me that my mentality was all wrong. There's a lot of traps you can easily fall into when fighting Necron units, and how to avoid them isn't common knowledge yet. Decurion exacerbates that. Typhoons can kite dismounted Decurion Warriors the whole game and make their points back in about 5-6 turns. But we're still discussing frittering that potential away on something like a Tomb Blade. Tomb Blades are a Distraction Carnifex, your mistake is targeting them in the first place. A 200pt Missileside team kills about ~1 per turn. Not smart!

So the name of the game is not matching firepower, and getting frustrated when it won't work. It's about knowing how to properly cope with specific units. A Tomb Blade has 1x S4 attack in melee for 22pts. Impressive? No. Don't shoot them, just lock them up with a fast skirmisher unit that can hold them in melee. Bikes, Rough Riders, Vespids, fast Synapse units. Does it kill them? No! Does it counter them? Yes! Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

Necron Infantry can be gunned down by getting enough fire through their armour save. Think S8 and AP3/4 minimum, anything else will fail. Faster, weaker units with better range will always grind down "stronger" units if they stay mobile -- this isn't complicated, it's a basic RTS tactic. Use speed to set up on their flanks. Infantry can't readjust quickly, so it minimizes return fire from the greater army. Bring a scary template to discourage grouping up for protection, so you can hit isolated models. Use vehicles against Warriors. If you absorb a single glancing hit, you lose no effectiveness. When infantry loses models, they lose firepower. If you can win the war of attrition over the course of the game -- who has ObSec, them or you? So now, you have a game plan.

Fighting Decurion is going to be like fighting every other army in the game. You are going to suck if you don't target their weaknesses. If your army can only do one thing, weight of fire, maybe it's not that Necrons are broken. Maybe you've just discovered a weakness in your list. And that's why I think Decurion is so cool -- it's going to hard counter mono-build armies that lack the flexibility to adapt. 4x Serpent Spam and 2x Wraithknights? 3x Riptide and 3x Missileside? 5x Dakka Flyrants? All very common, very shooty lists that don't really bring anything else to the table.

If every tool is your belt is a hammer, you will by necessity treat every tactical problem like a nail. You can hardly blame Decurion players for exploiting a problem -- predictability and inflexibility -- that most players are intentionally building into their own armies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

If you don't want a specific unit required by Decurion, don't play Decurion. The whole point of this thread is that Decurion is not fun to play against because it's broken.

The Decurion doesn't really have what I'd call "weaknesses".

I suppose if the board has sparse terrain you could do Leman Russ spam.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Remember that discussion about Typhoons versus Tomb Blades we had a while back? It dawned on me that my mentality was all wrong. There's a lot of traps you can easily fall into when fighting Necron units, and how to avoid them isn't common knowledge yet. Decurion exacerbates that. Typhoons can kite dismounted Decurion Warriors the whole game and make their points back in about 5-6 turns. But we're still discussing frittering that potential away on something like a Tomb Blade. Tomb Blades are a Distraction Carnifex, your mistake is targeting them in the first place. A 200pt Missileside team kills about ~1 per turn. Not smart!

So the name of the game is not matching firepower, and getting frustrated when it won't work. It's about knowing how to properly cope with specific units. A Tomb Blade has 1x S4 attack in melee for 22pts. Impressive? No. Don't shoot them, just lock them up with a fast skirmisher unit that can hold them in melee. Bikes, Rough Riders, Vespids, fast Synapse units. Does it kill them? No! Does it counter them? Yes! Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

Necron Infantry can be gunned down by getting enough fire through their armour save. Think S8 and AP3/4 minimum, anything else will fail. Faster, weaker units with better range will always grind down "stronger" units if they stay mobile -- this isn't complicated, it's a basic RTS tactic. Use speed to set up on their flanks. Infantry can't readjust quickly, so it minimizes return fire from the greater army. Bring a scary template to discourage grouping up for protection, so you can hit isolated models. Use vehicles against Warriors. If you absorb a single glancing hit, you lose no effectiveness. When infantry loses models, they lose firepower. If you can win the war of attrition over the course of the game -- who has ObSec, them or you? So now, you have a game plan.

Fighting Decurion is going to be like fighting every other army in the game. You are going to suck if you don't target their weaknesses. If your army can only do one thing, weight of fire, maybe it's not that Necrons are broken. Maybe you've just discovered a weakness in your list. And that's why I think Decurion is so cool -- it's going to hard counter mono-build armies that lack the flexibility to adapt. 4x Serpent Spam and 2x Wraithknights? 3x Riptide and 3x Missileside? 5x Dakka Flyrants? All very common, very shooty lists that don't really bring anything else to the table.

If every tool is your belt is a hammer, you will by necessity treat every tactical problem like a nail. You can hardly blame Decurion players for exploiting a problem -- predictability and inflexibility -- that most players are intentionally building into their own armies.

I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

 Purifier wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

It is not, no. Call it what you want, I just prefer to use Decurion. I won't lie, I don't even remember what it's like to build a list otherwise.

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Suit yourself.

I think a lot of things would be better if GW actually brought out a new edition (hehe, I said it) that fixes assault and makes it dangerous again.

You know the system is broke when every single assault unit needs assault grenades and a reliable transport and needs to be fielded with plenty other assault units at the same time or its not worth fielding at all.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

It is not, no. Call it what you want, I just prefer to use Decurion. I won't lie, I don't even remember what it's like to build a list otherwise.

But you made the claim that you couldn't field a Decurion for 500 points, which is completely false. I believe the minimum cost for the Reclamation League is around 350 points. You just can't take a Reclamation League and one of the more desirable detatchments, such as the Canoptek Harvest for 500, but I believe the RL and the harvest can fit in 750....that's a good way to be single

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

It is not, no. Call it what you want, I just prefer to use Decurion. I won't lie, I don't even remember what it's like to build a list otherwise.

But you made the claim that you couldn't field a Decurion for 500 points, which is completely false. I believe the minimum cost for the Reclamation League is around 350 points. You just can't take a Reclamation League and one of the more desirable detatchments, such as the Canoptek Harvest for 500, but I believe the RL and the harvest can fit in 750....that's a good way to be single

Base cost of just the Reclamation legion with no upgrades is 479. And you're still required to bring an auxiliary. >.>

But you made the claim that you couldn't field a Decurion for 500 points, which is completely false

Absolute minimum for a decurion (reclaimation + flayed one detachment) is 544.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

It is not, no. Call it what you want, I just prefer to use Decurion. I won't lie, I don't even remember what it's like to build a list otherwise.

This would seem to indicate a major balance issue if a traditional CAD is such a poor alternative that it's forgotten altogether.



As for the 500pt game discussion going on, 500pts has always been awkward and never a particularly recommended level to play at. In the past, Necrons used to only barely be able to play 500pt games with two minimum units of Warriors and a Lord with a Res orb. The idea that there's a major drawback to the Decurion not being able to play 500pt games because it won't fit is kinda silly because the game really just is not meant for that points level and just does not function well there at all.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think a lot of things would be better if GW actually brought out a new edition (hehe, I said it) that fixes assault and makes it dangerous again.

You know the system is broke when every single assault unit needs assault grenades and a reliable transport and needs to be fielded with plenty other assault units at the same time or its not worth fielding at all.

Highly agreed.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

But you made the claim that you couldn't field a Decurion for 500 points, which is completely false

Absolute minimum for a decurion (reclaimation + flayed one detachment) is 544.

My mistake, I forgot about the requirement auxilery unit.

If it helps, I think the Decurion and the Khorne thingie are models of things to come and that other armies will get the same treatment. Which I am all for.

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Suit yourself.

I agree, you're severely underestimating the strength of Wraiths.

You can't tarpit Wraiths with cheap units. They mulch them way too quickly. You can't bash Wraiths with awesome melee units because they have high initiative, hit hard in return, and they still have a 3++ to survive all your power-fists or other nasty melee abilities. You can't shoot Wraiths because they're high toughness, again with a 3++, and will often have a 4+ RP roll after that. You can't ignore Wraiths because they're too dangerous. You can't avoid Wraiths because they're too fast.

For most armies, the "solution" to Wraiths is a unit that costs 2-3 times as much as a Wraith unit does, and for some armies EVEN THEN you will lose to the Wraiths, or you will lose to the rest of the Necron army because you had to devote 300 points to killing a unit that only cost your opponent 120 points.

They are a completely unbalanced unit, plain and simple.

 MajorStoffer wrote:


Tactical marines don't get better. You either chose the right chapter tactics which elevate them from bad to "meh," or they're gak. Necron Warriors start of good, better than most standard troops I'd argue, somewhere around Guard Veterans and Fire Warriors, but being the most durable troops in the game rather than having especially high firepower. The Decurion makes them as durable, if not slightly more durable than Tactical Terminators, and tomb blades? Ignore cover jetbikes with guns which would make Tau jealous.

Doesn't sound like a tax to me, and certainly not an opportunity cost. What would you be taking instead of the Decurion options?

Warriors outside the Decurion are pretty much exactly as durable as Tactical Marines...

vs. lasguns

Marine 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9
NW 1/3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/9

vs. bolters

Marine 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/6
NW 1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/6

vs. heavy bolters

Marine 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9
NW 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/9

vs. plasma

Marine 5/6
NW 5/6 x 2/3 = 5/9

I.e. Marines are more durable vs. AP4, Necrons vs. AP2 and 3. Vs. standard small arms they are identical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Suit yourself.

I agree, you're severely underestimating the strength of Wraiths.

You can't tarpit Wraiths with cheap units. They mulch them way too quickly. You can't bash Wraiths with awesome melee units because they have high initiative, hit hard in return, and they still have a 3++ to survive all your power-fists or other nasty melee abilities. You can't shoot Wraiths because they're high toughness, again with a 3++, and will often have a 4+ RP roll after that. You can't ignore Wraiths because they're too dangerous. You can't avoid Wraiths because they're too fast.

For most armies, the "solution" to Wraiths is a unit that costs 2-3 times as much as a Wraith unit does, and for some armies EVEN THEN you will lose to the Wraiths, or you will lose to the rest of the Necron army because you had to devote 300 points to killing a unit that only cost your opponent 120 points.

They are a completely unbalanced unit, plain and simple.

While I agree they are unbalanced, a Wraith kills 0.583 MEQ in close combat, 1.083 Ork Boyz, and 1.22 GEQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It will take 6 of them half the game to get through a full squad of marines.

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Suit yourself.

Invisibility is literally a solution for everything. That's not anything new you just pulled out of your head.
Also, you suggested tarpitting a Jetbike. That's simply ludicrous.

Alcibiades wrote:

While I agree they are unbalanced, a Wraith kills 0.583 MEQ in close combat, 1.083 Ork Boyz, and 1.22 GEQ.

It will take 6 of them half the game to get through a full squad of marines.

I agree they are more heavily unbalanced on the defensive side than the offensive side, but I fail to see how that really matters. They're still dangerous enough that no player can ignore or avoid them. Even if you sacrifice a full tactical squad to slow them for a couple turns you're still likely going to have a lot of Wraiths left to deal with when they finish shredding them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

Um, yes, by taking a Decurion you DO want to include these units. The Decurion is, wait for it, optional! You have the option to take a CAD and still get 4+ RP on certain units with certain HQ choices. By choosing to take Decurion over CAD, you are opting to take units you claim you don't want. Fortunately, you don't have to. They are not being forced on you. Just don't take these unwanted units and take a CAD instead. Because a Necron CAD is still really, really good! And guess what? Even with a lowly CAD, you will still do pretty well, because Necrons are, top to bottom, a solid army with or without the Decurion. If Necrons couldn't be run as a CAD, then you would actually be paying a tax.

There's a big difference between a Cryptek 4+, which only works on one unit and can be sniped out, and army-wide 4+.

I mean, to get 4 units of Warriors 4+ RP using CAD, thats 260 points IIRC. At that point I'd be inclined to go whole-hog and buy the Invul, too, so that'd be 360 worth of HQ.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Invisibility is literally a solution for everything. That's not anything new you just pulled out of your head.
Also, you suggested tarpitting a Jetbike. That's simply ludicrous.

Ok, invisibility. What solution would his lordship prefer?

Look, I don't need to tarpit or kill a single Tomb Blade to win. I just need to control them. I halve their damage output with Gauss just by keeping them outside 12". Shooting gives me zero control, close to zero effect, zero real threat and simply incurs opportunity cost when I could have targeted a softer unit like a Warrior or Immortal. Instead, I plan to take the hit from the Tomb Blade on a unit that can afford to, control my space, and stay focused on cutting down the horde. If he comes within 18", I pounce. I don't fall for the distraction Carnifex -- I manage it and stay on track with my game plan.

BTW, it looks like an Ironclad Dreadnought w/Icon of Glory stands a decent chance with a 4++ (Forewarning). I didn't run the stats but the Dread won a few times when I diced it out. So we will eventually find ways to deal with the Wraiths too.

sweetbacon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

Um, yes, by taking a Decurion you DO want to include these units. The Decurion is, wait for it, optional! You have the option to take a CAD and still get 4+ RP on certain units with certain HQ choices. By choosing to take Decurion over CAD, you are opting to take units you claim you don't want. Fortunately, you don't have to. They are not being forced on you. Just don't take these unwanted units and take a CAD instead. Because a Necron CAD is still really, really good! And guess what? Even with a lowly CAD, you will still do pretty well, because Necrons are, top to bottom, a solid army with or without the Decurion. If Necrons couldn't be run as a CAD, then you would actually be paying a tax.

Even admitting Necron CAD is 'really, really good', it's still most likely significantly worse than a Decurion.

That being said, 'you have to take X to be competitive' is a thing most codexes have. Want to play Tyranids for example? You have the totally free choice to take flyrants or suck.

sweetbacon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

Um, yes, by taking a Decurion you DO want to include these units. The Decurion is, wait for it, optional! You have the option to take a CAD and still get 4+ RP on certain units with certain HQ choices. By choosing to take Decurion over CAD, you are opting to take units you claim you don't want. Fortunately, you don't have to. They are not being forced on you. Just don't take these unwanted units and take a CAD instead. Because a Necron CAD is still really, really good! And guess what? Even with a lowly CAD, you will still do pretty well, because Necrons are, top to bottom, a solid army with or without the Decurion. If Necrons couldn't be run as a CAD, then you would actually be paying a tax.

Sigh.

You're taking a decurion because you want the benefits of arm wide 4+ RP. This forces units on you you would not have had to take otherwise in a CAD, and forces you to take specific formations in order to add any models outside of the RL. This is the tax you are paying. This is not debateable, this is a factual item.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

Um, yes, by taking a Decurion you DO want to include these units. The Decurion is, wait for it, optional! You have the option to take a CAD and still get 4+ RP on certain units with certain HQ choices. By choosing to take Decurion over CAD, you are opting to take units you claim you don't want. Fortunately, you don't have to. They are not being forced on you. Just don't take these unwanted units and take a CAD instead. Because a Necron CAD is still really, really good! And guess what? Even with a lowly CAD, you will still do pretty well, because Necrons are, top to bottom, a solid army with or without the Decurion. If Necrons couldn't be run as a CAD, then you would actually be paying a tax.

Sigh.

You're taking a decurion because you want the benefits of arm wide 4+ RP. This forces units on you you would not have had to take otherwise in a CAD, and forces you to take specific formations in order to add any models outside of the RL. This is the tax you are paying. This is not debateable, this is a factual item.

Isn't that true for anything though? Any detachment that has mandatory units/slots (CAD included) has a tax.

Yes, I wasnt saying it wasnt. It is, however, a much greater tax than a CAD, so in a strict comparison between the two, with a CAD being the default, there IS a cost associated with the Decurion benefit; loss of obsec being one, the other being the very high minium mandatory spend of over 500 points, and the requriement to include troops you may not have a use for / your local meta simply treats as expensive warriors, models you may dislike, and a restriction on how you access additional units within the army by placing even more requirements.

Claiming there is no cost to a decurion is objectively false.

Necrons just require a different focus to beat and shifts the metagame in a major way. They're not a push-over and I'm not nearly naive or stupid enough to suggest that they are or I'm that good, but I do manage a 50/50 win against them with my IG.

Spamming (large) blasts is your friend. Assault is your friend. Tarpitting is your friend. Suicide units are your friend.

The only thing I don't have any easy answer to is the Enclave with Nightbringer. But that makes me happy in a weird way because I love his fluff.

But seriously, assaulting and blasts of any kind other than small (barring wyverns). Forcing saves sounds hard until you're forcing the majority of the unit to make a simultaneous save and dropping their RP. Dropping large blasts or suicide units to take out the spider cuts wraith survivability in half, if I don't tie them up with cheap fodder for the rest of the game first.

People are stuck now, and I have no doubt people will come up with theoretical scenarios and deny what I'm saying. But in a few months they'll find it out and tournaments will prove Necrons are strong, but just as beatable as other upper-mid or top tier armies when you shift your strategy appropriately.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Claiming there is no cost to a decurion is objectively false.

There's restrictions, but that's not remotely the same as a cost.

So being forced to take both 2 warrior units and an immortals unit, alongside a unit of bikes, is not a cost over and above the requirements of a CAD? Please, enlighten me as to how you are getting these free units?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So being forced to take both 2 warrior units and an immortals unit, alongside a unit of bikes, is not a cost over and above the requirements of a CAD? Please, enlighten me as to how you are getting these free units?

Go ahead and point out the abnormal cost to them.

Like I said, that's a restriction. Completely different thing.

changemod wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So being forced to take both 2 warrior units and an immortals unit, alongside a unit of bikes, is not a cost over and above the requirements of a CAD? Please, enlighten me as to how you are getting these free units?

Go ahead and point out the abnormal cost to them.

Like I said, that's a restriction. Completely different thing.

It is a cost you pay in order to gain the benefits of army wide 4+, over and above the cost you would normally pay to play a bound army using a CAD.

Its not even a restriction using the meaning of the word correctluy, it is a requirement of you fielding a decurion. WHich is a completely different thing again.

Please show how the additional 85pts plus 3 bikes plus one other formation (deathmarks being cheapest, from memory) is free, i.e it COSTS nothing, over your minimum 2 warriors and an HQ (ignoring that you could take a cheaper HQ than the mandatory RL one, jsut to keep things simpler) in a CAD

Objectively there is a COST to fielding a decurion that is over and above the accepted "norm" of a CAD. This is factual.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

changemod wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So being forced to take both 2 warrior units and an immortals unit, alongside a unit of bikes, is not a cost over and above the requirements of a CAD? Please, enlighten me as to how you are getting these free units?

Go ahead and point out the abnormal cost to them.

Like I said, that's a restriction. Completely different thing.

It is a cost you pay in order to gain the benefits of army wide 4+, over and above the cost you would normally pay to play a bound army using a CAD.

Its not even a restriction using the meaning of the word correctluy, it is a requirement of you fielding a decurion. WHich is a completely different thing again.

Please show how the additional 85pts plus 3 bikes plus one other formation (deathmarks being cheapest, from memory) is free, i.e it COSTS nothing, over your minimum 2 warriors and an HQ (ignoring that you could take a cheaper HQ than the mandatory RL one, jsut to keep things simpler) in a CAD

Objectively there is a COST to fielding a decurion that is over and above the accepted "norm" of a CAD. This is factual.

If CAD cost was an 'accepted norm', you wouldn't hear the words 'troop tax' ao often.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Objectively there is a COST to fielding a decurion that is over and above the accepted "norm" of a CAD. This is factual.

You are constrained by the Decurion. You are required to make more specific lists in order to use it.

You are not however paying a single damn point for the benefits.

And it's important to note that the restrictions placed upon your list do not in any way prevent you from making a power build. Perhaps not as amazing a power build if you had your cake and could eat it too, but at the end of the day nothing that cripples the ability to field a very powerful army. You can't necessarily build the fluffy or cool list you want to play, but that's not a serious problem when alternate list building methods, including unbound if all else fails, exist.

And the end of the day, if you are complaining about the Decurion's restrictions from a power perspective, you're being farcical.

Sigh. No, I have not made that claim. What I have claimed, and proven (it was trivial of course), is that the requirements of the decurion give rise to a cost you must pay in order to access the benefits of the decurion.

In order to receive the army wide benefits, you are paying an additional cost you MUSt pay, regardless of whether you WANT to pay that cost. That is a cost, and is indeed a tax on fielding a decurion. FFS, look up "opportunity cost", its been alluded to enough times.

I am a) not complaining, but objectively stating a fact, one you are missing by being imprecise with wording, and b) not saying you cannot make a powerful list.

I am pointing out, and proving, that there is indeed a cost to running a decurion. This is objective fact, and cannot be sensibly decried.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:

If CAD cost was an 'accepted norm', you wouldn't hear the words 'troop tax' ao often.

the phrase "Troop tax" has existed since the FOC aka CAD was invented. Try again, with facts this time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
i am pointing out, and proving, that there is indeed a cost to running a decurion. This is objective fact, and cannot be sensibly decried.

And I'm pointing out that you're systematically failing to describe anything that even loosely resembles a genuine cost. You are simply restating the existence of restrictions and trying to portray them as a genuine loss or tax. And make no mistake, an actual tax is defined by the loss it incurs.

The only way to get a tax out of a reclamation legion is to treat it as one. It's a formation that requires you to build a strong core gunline, which can be easily achieved by buying up a few unit upgrades to build synergy. Grabbing a minimum Reclamation Legion with units you don't want and filling up on gimmicky formations will give you dead points. Filling it up to roughly 1000 points will give you a substantial massed gunline that'll refuse to die.

Again, wrong word:

REQUIREMENTS

Those requirements come at a cost. This is the cost you pay to access the benefits. There is only so many ways to restate a simple concept.

In your quote snipping you have ignored the term "opportunity cost", look it up, and come back and explain how this opportunity cost you pay isnt actually one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, wrong word:

REQUIREMENTS

Those requirements come at a cost. This is the cost you pay to access the benefits. There is only so many ways to restate a simple concept.

I think what you're looking to say here is there's only so many ways so backpedal before you're left with what is at absolute best, a pointless semantic distinction.

In your quote snipping you have ignored

Nothing, as I dismissed your point as a whole.

the term "opportunity cost", look it up, and come back and explain how this opportunity cost you pay isnt actually one.

You still have every one of those opportunities, mate. You just can't claim a free resurrection orb for every model at the same time.

But hey, feel free to keep pretending being unable to have a cake after eating it means you've lost out on cake.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:

If CAD cost was an 'accepted norm', you wouldn't hear the words 'troop tax' ao often.

the phrase "Troop tax" has existed since the FOC aka CAD was invented. Try again, with facts this time.

The point I am.trying to make is that even if CAD has been the default way of playing the game in 6th edition, it still contains a tax in theform of 2 troops, which you probably don't want to take and likely wouldn't take if you dudn't have to as the troops of most codexes are gak(and the fact that you still hear 'troop tax' thrown around is proof at least some people still see it as such).

Bottom line is everything but Unbound has a tax/opportunity cost/requirement.

Decurion requires you to take units in block amounts and groups. This is a fact.

Whether this is a "tax" or "cost", and if so then to what extent, entirely depends on what a player wants in their army.

Unlike other formations with set unit requirements, there really is no bad option in the formations.

Also, they are not as restrictive as other formations out there, and allow for many variables.

Ultimately then, the supposed "tax" really comes down to a preference of choice.

Rather than being forced to take a bad unit, decurion instead may force you to take good units that you simply do not want.

Now, onto a different point. I still do not understand why people keep saying that assaulting necrons is a good solution.
With the old codex I would have agreed, but new RP rules really should bring an end to the parroting of old ideas.

changemod wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, wrong word:

REQUIREMENTS

Those requirements come at a cost. This is the cost you pay to access the benefits. There is only so many ways to restate a simple concept.

I think what you're looking to say here is there's only so many ways so backpedal before you're left with what is at absolute best, a pointless semantic distinction.

Sigh. No, only many ways to restate a point, hoping you understand. I see this is futile.

changemod wrote:

In your quote snipping you have ignored

Nothing, as I dismissed your point as a whole.

Everything, as you cant even refer to a simple concept correctly

changemod wrote:

the term "opportunity cost", look it up, and come back and explain how this opportunity cost you pay isnt actually one.

You still have every one of those opportunities, mate. You just can't claim a free resurrection orb for every model at the same time.

But hey, feel free to keep pretending being unable to have a cake after eating it means you've lost out on cake.

Wow, youre still not understanding this...

If you must take something that costs 54 points minimum, do you still have the choice to spend those 54 points elsewhere, or have you lost that opportunity? Simple question, was it free or did it cost you? If you can answer, "mate", that would help clarify where you are misunderstanding basic concepts.

But hey, feel free to keep inventing an argument then defeating it, its not like thats a fallacy or anything. Good going!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. No, only many ways to restate a point, hoping you understand. I see this is futile.

Still going for trying to look smart over substance, huh?

I have no idea why you're even trying when I can see through it so casually.

Everything, as you cant even refer to a simple concept correctly

You're the one who said being required to do something doesn't qualify as a restriction.

Wow, youre still not understanding this...

Complete dismissal =/= lack of comprehension.

If you must take something that costs 54 points minimum, do you still have the choice to spend those 54 points elsewhere, or have you lost that opportunity? Simple question, was it free or did it cost you? If you can answer, "mate", that would help clarify where you are misunderstanding basic concepts.

Are you seriously under the impression this isn't pure semantics under the bluster?

The units within a Decurion cost points. Yes, you cannot spend those points elsewhere without losing the Decurion. No, this does not mean you have paid anything for the Decurion benefits unless you've got dead points floating around in there. There is no actual mechanical downside which comes with the benefits.

The only "Lost opportunity" of note is the choice to play a more personalised list, which is utterly irrelevant to the reasons people have been complaining about the detachment.

But hey, feel free to keep inventing an argument then defeating it, its not like thats a fallacy or anything. Good going!

Are you under the impression this conversation is still going for any reason other than your attitude?

Yes, I thought you were truly failing to understand and were honestly trying to debate, as opposed to what is evident now - a lack of comprehension, AND dishonesty. Your attitude is clear, as well.

Keep going though, its getting quite amusing seeing you flail.

To those who want to debate honestly, it is clear there IS a cost you pay to field a decurion, in the form of fulfilling requirements. The benefit of meeting those requirements is the army wide bonus to RP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, I thought you were truly failing to understand and were honestly trying to debate, as opposed to what is evident now - a lack of comprehension, AND dishonesty. Your attitude is clear, as well.

Keep going though, its getting quite amusing seeing you flail.

To those who want to debate honestly, it is clear there IS a cost you pay to field a decurion, in the form of fulfilling requirements. The benefit of meeting those requirements is the army wide bonus to RP.

The problem is it's not a cost if you were going to take such units anyways, and considering how good they are they aren't exactly much of a tax, a Tactical Marine is a tax, Warriors are not so much.

But warriors AND immortals AND bikes? And to take nearly anything outside of the RL you are forced to take other units as well - another opportunity cost.

Saying the benefit is "free" is a laughably poor argument. As I pointed out, exactly as poor an argument as the one stating 5th ed PAGK were undercosted, as they had a power weapon that was "worth" 15ppm but they cost 4ppm more than a then tac marine. It fails to take into account that "mandatory" is in itself a cost to be borne

Fact: you *cannot* run a RL under 500 points, but can run a CAD at that points level. Yet apparently there is no "cost" associated with it?

Note: nowehere do I say this is a *fair* cost - I am just pointing out that you cannot honestly say there is "no" cost to the benefit, when it is proven that there is. We can argue about relative merits all day long, but you cannot claim, honestly, that the cost is zero.

Guys, what are you even discussing here at this point? I don't care if you see it as a tax, requirement or a blessing send from the gods above.
All your troops are viable. You are complaining you can't spam only your ubercheese units because of the decurion formations that make nearly anything superfunky? So basically you want this 4+ RP, move through cover and relentless for all your units for free? Telling me that you feel forced to a certain army, because you have to take a variety of units instead the usuall "take three" mentality? Oh boy, where will this end.

I dont know, but it certainly isnt anything like your mis characterisation.

Do you have anything constructive to add?

Edit - to make things clear. I'm not a necron player, although my civil partner soon to be husband IS, I love the concept behind the decurion as it make s refereshing change, but that suggesting there is no "cost" to building the army is one that needs countering - there IS most certainly a cost. As I said above, the only query is whether this cost is high enough given the benefit.

Not really, just need to vent a bit after reading some opinions on the last three pages. Would need to sit down and write an essay to address everything, but based on the statements made it would be a waste of time.
In the end I'm just disappointed, that after all those relatively even balanced codizies in 7th they made something like the crondex.

About that point "I think the codex appropriately represents near unstoppable necron legions walking towards the enemie": I would also like my codex to appropriately represent the propaganda inside it...

rhavien wrote:
Not really, just need to vent a bit after reading some opinions on the last three pages. Would need to sit down and write an essay to address everything, but based on the statements made it would be a waste of time.
In the end I'm just disappointed, that after all those relatively even balanced codizies in 7th they made something like the crondex.

About that point "I think the codex appropriately represents near unstoppable necron legions walking towards the enemie": I would also like my codex to appropriately represent the propaganda inside it...

Honestly, I do feel bad, but not quite in the way I should. I feel bad because the crondex is the pinnacle of balanced rules for a codex, and I feel bad that not every other codex represents that. (Dark Eldar, for example)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But, I don't know if it deserves the hate towards it simply for being fluffy and balanced.

It's super balanced, I dunno what peoples problem is. Also, taking 2 Warriors Squads , 1 Immortal, and 1 Tomb Blade.

To me that's not a tax, their really amazing units over all and I've never had issue because their so good.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Now, onto a different point. I still do not understand why people keep saying that assaulting necrons is a good solution.
With the old codex I would have agreed, but new RP rules really should bring an end to the parroting of old ideas.

It's a bit of a trap, you can't push a general-purpose assault unit into a blob of Warriors. You need either enough force concentration and leadership debuffs to win convincingly, or you need to take advantage of their low damage output. 10 Warriors will kill about ~1 Scout per turn. That's not scary, but a handful of Warriors can tarpit a 240pt Wraithknight for the entire game. So be careful what you choose to assault into them.

Incidentally any kind of buff that reduces incoming damage does a lot to even the playing field. 5x Wraiths on the charge kill ~2 Tacs with a 4+ FNP from Endurance. It would take them about 6 Assault phases total to chew through an entire 4+++ Tac Squad. So it looks like layering up your own saves helps immensely.

I like how this argument basically boils down to a millionaire pissed he has to pay a thousand dollar tax on a million dollar inheritance.

If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

Because the Tournament Scene honestly isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.

It's not a skill issue, more a list building philosophy that results in fine tuned power builds such as five flying tyrant lists that look completely different to how armies are generally built.

The thing about the Decurion though, is it's something of a power build before trying to even casually optimise. And it's right there front and center in the codex being sold as the "main" way to build this particular army, with a detachment benefit that's both instantly obviously an amazingly good buff and something of a discouragement to just run a CAD.

And so people have been easily sleepwalking their way through their local metas since the codex was released.

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

How old is the new dex? How many tourneys it could have win? But it could have possibly gone back in time to win some past tournaments. Wouldnt doubt that.

changemod wrote:

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

Because the Tournament Scene honestly isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.

It's not a skill issue, more a list building philosophy that results in fine tuned power builds such as five flying tyrant lists that look completely different to how armies are generally built.

The thing about the Decurion though, is it's something of a power build before trying to even casually optimise. And it's right there front and center in the codex being sold as the "main" way to build this particular army, with a detachment benefit that's both instantly obviously an amazingly good buff and something of a discouragement to just run a CAD.

And so people have been easily sleepwalking their way through their local metas since the codex was released.

Most tournaments play a specific kind of missions. As a result, most people layers optimize their list for that specific format. While they are doubtless excellent lists, in a local meta tha doesn't use tornament missions, they might not do so hot.

For example, the whole MSU idea is kinda wasted on a local meta that plays pure Eternal War, or just pure Killpoints.

On.the.other hand, netlisting is a thing. Some power 'cores' of tournament lists will still.dominate local metas. I'm pretty sure 5 Flyrant spam would walk over most mon-tournamentlists.

Slightly unrelated (but I did learn this trick from LVO), hiw good would a Lynx on a landing pad be at countering the Decurion?

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

If the ork codex, sisters and IG codex are so well made and balanced why after being out so long did only one ork army and zero sisters and IG even place top thirty two at adepticon while necrons had four showings?

There was exactly one AS primary out of 183 competitors, probably explains that. Out of 7 Ork primaries, one went to top 32. A lone MT primary(!) actually placed higher than every single Guard primary. IG has poor mobility and in addition Forge World was disallowed, so I'm guessing those both hurt quite a bit in terms of VPs. Meanwhile Necrons resist being tabled, have a lot of fast units and can sit on Tactical Objectives and endure fire. So it's not surprising they did well.

A Skyshield/Lynx costs 495 points. It has some utility as a support unit to kill Monoliths and other pricey mech, but it's not an answer to core Decurion formations or auxiliaries like Canoptek/Destroyer Cult.

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Why do necron players insist that some magical counter exists for everything? You're giving GW's game designers too much credit.

lustigjh wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Why do necron players insist that some magical counter exists for everything? You're giving GW's game designers too much credit.

And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

So far i have only won 2/5 games with Decurion. My opponents field heavy competitive lists with combined arms. They mostly win on objective secured...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

If the ork codex, sisters and IG codex are so well made and balanced why after being out so long did only one ork army and zero sisters and IG even place top thirty two at adepticon while necrons had four showings?

Ever since the ork dex came out. I have won a single game with orks... Against a non competitive daemon list. All the other games were giant rapes.. even while using tournament lists... Orks have been killed. hard!

Sisters.lol... surprised they even left that players shelf..

IG seems quite allright though.. not that mobile... but the range to compensate for it.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
So far i have only won 2/5 games with Decurion. My opponents field heavy competitive lists with combined arms. They mostly win on objective secured...

Yeah, Obj sec can play a huge part in countering a Decurion. Though all my friends think it doesn't matter, I tid a game against my AM buddy mainly because he had a ton of Obj Sec units.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Considering the only units of that type I have are cultists in a CSM army, it's not exactly helpful to say the least.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Wraiths DO have range weapons occasionally. If in the formation, I always use the Beamers for some serious anti-everything.

Very unhelpful of me

I'll take a look at CSM. Basic principle is layer up your own saves, or force debuffs on Necron units. They can't be killed easily so you need to find ways to slow them down.

About the range -- good point. Gotta consider that

Everyone is making out that the Decurion is the bestest but seriously the Decurion is one of the most balanced ways to play the army.

You're not gonna face 18 Wraith with it, etc.. etc..

It's very balanced, but also very strong.

The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Martel732 wrote:
The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Decurion not offensive? Have you played with a Destroyer Cult? Judicator Battalion? Wraiths with Beamers? And then all the normal firepower Necrons have?

To contest (capture with ObSec) the opponent still neds to get within 3 of an objective.

This can be tough when there are blobs of warriors still on the board who can cover them.

Ghost arks are also fun for parking in front of objectives too.

Ok, here is an Idea for CSM. Try 20x Cultists screening a Helbrute. This will only work if you take "4th Quadrant Legacy", it's going to grant Fearless within 12" to all your cultists. It also has the bonus of giving you a 4++ when your Helbrute has 1HP.

With 2x melee weapons giving your Helbrute 3x S10 attacks, you will ID Wraiths every time you get through the 3++. That's a 210pt Combo so you will stand a decent chance at points depending on how things play out on the table.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Decurion not offensive? Have you played with a Destroyer Cult? Judicator Battalion? Wraiths with Beamers? And then all the normal firepower Necrons have?

They're still not picking up models Tau/Eldar fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Decurion not offensive? Have you played with a Destroyer Cult? Judicator Battalion? Wraiths with Beamers? And then all the normal firepower Necrons have?

They're still not picking up models Tau/Eldar fast.

Tau aren't that crazy anymore. And Eldar, well, as soon as their 7th edition book comes out and the Serpent shield is toned down, they won't be too much of an issue anymore. And even so, no we don't have a ton of 60" Ignores cover S7, our durability makes up for it, and we still have more firepower than a lot of other armies out there.

I'll take my chances against the Necrons and skip the 60" S7 spam. There's no guarantee that GW is going to fix that, and they might leave it as a big FU to the players.

And yes, Tau can still make you pick up models VERY quickly if you are a marine player.

BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

Yoyoyo wrote:
BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

Typhus is unwieldy.

Yoyoyo wrote:
BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

So list tailor to beat them got it.

 Orock wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

So list tailor to beat them got it.

Yeah...that's all I'm getting from that

Melee Helbrute is terrible, and tends to get shredder by a wraith swarm let alone the REST of the entire army behind it, the cultists won't even make it still.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Typhus is unwieldy.

He's also I5, I missed that too. But it did show me throwing out a lot of WS5 Instant Death attacks at I6 will cut down a ton of incoming damage, which is desirable. It actually seems a lot more effective than just absorbing the hit with blobs.

Maybe you could pump Ahriman's Force Weapon to I8 with Warp Speed. Or, alternatively get a DP up to S8 and double out Wraiths with a toughness debuff. Given lower initiative and Instant Death, they will die more or less like TH/SS Terminators.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Melee Helbrute is terrible, and tends to get shredder by a wraith swarm let alone the REST of the entire army behind it, the cultists won't even make it still.

Seems more effective than a Dark Apostle, though.

Shooting down ideas is fine, but usually it's to work towards more effective ones. Feel free to contribute your own.

Seems more effective than a Dark Apostle, though.

Which is typically another terrible option, course thats the problem with CSM, many things in it but like the usual poor kellydex it typically has the good, the bad, and the oh god why.

The problem is Cultists won't be getting up in any typical fashion, I've had enough murdered outright by Tesla to know that weight of numbers doesn't work as well, elite options not as well either because once Wraiths get next to them they aren't exactly "Elite" so much as "Chunks of elite spread across the board"

Which is why I'm baffled in trying to discover a method for CSM that will work.

You can put that Fearless bubble onto any vehicle if you want to stick with Cultists, put it on a Sicaran if it's more your style.

I think Cultists are a dicey solution alone, they have no incoming damage mitigation. Not committing a Dark Apostle will help, but you still need to lower the Wraiths down to 4-5 kills per phase. AM can manage this by rerolling failed saves but I'm not sure what CSM can bring to the table.

I'll keep thinking about it, the problem is not suggesting something too complex to be practical.

Why should I feel bad for something that is legal?

 mondo80 wrote:
Why should I feel bad for something that is legal?

Oh so many issues with this statement and line of thinking...

There's all sorts of things that are legal. In 40k, in other games, in real life. As a general reply to statements like this, there's always "Just because you *can*, doesn't necessarily mean you *should*."

So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

 mondo80 wrote:
So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

In the provided example, yes. Yes you should. Tailoring a list to beat a fluffy DW army is like kicking a defenseless puppy.

In more general terms, remember that you are playing a game for fun (unless it is a tournament, then by all means wipe the opponent as hard as you can). If your opponents are not having fun, then you will soon find less people are willing to play with you.

 mondo80 wrote:
So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

Two things.

First, list tailoring in general is typically considered to something of a dick move unless there's some particularly special reason or there's literally no other way to defeat that kind of opponent. (note: there's a difference between list tailoring an adapting an army list to face certain threats, e.g. overloading everything with AP2 guns to specifically defeat a small 2+sv army versus including AP2 weapons amongst a range of weapons in a TAC army list)

Second, if you're tailoring to beat a Deathwing, army, something largely considered to be a relatively weak army, the above goes double or triple because it wasn't necessary to beat him and the game was likely a waste of both players time.

If someone is bringing the same army over and over, it's usually a TAC army that they built to play against anything and anyone, or a themed army. Now, anyone can tailor a list to beat an army like that, especially if they've seen it and played it a bunch of times. There's no real skill in that, and if you're tailoring to just stomp it into the ground, just because, well, yeah, that's something you should avoid. The outcome of the game is not exactly in doubt, you won't exactly be challenging the capabilities of your generalship it's not in the spirit of the game, and there's just not much reason to play something out like that in general.

So, yeah, you absolutely should feel bad.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Ok, here is an Idea for CSM. Try 20x Cultists screening a Helbrute. This will only work if you take "4th Quadrant Legacy", it's going to grant Fearless within 12" to all your cultists. It also has the bonus of giving you a 4++ when your Helbrute has 1HP.

With 2x melee weapons giving your Helbrute 3x S10 attacks, you will ID Wraiths every time you get through the 3++. That's a 210pt Combo so you will stand a decent chance at points depending on how things play out on the table.

Or just take a helcult, which gives you the 3+ cover and makes 2 squads of cultists fearless (and get zealot when the brute dies)

 Vaktathi wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

Two things.

First, list tailoring in general is typically considered to something of a dick move unless there's some particularly special reason or there's literally no other way to defeat that kind of opponent. (note: there's a difference between list tailoring an adapting an army list to face certain threats, e.g. overloading everything with AP2 guns to specifically defeat a small 2+sv army versus including AP2 weapons amongst a range of weapons in a TAC army list)

Second, if you're tailoring to beat a Deathwing, army, something largely considered to be a relatively weak army, the above goes double or triple because it wasn't necessary to beat him and the game was likely a waste of both players time.

If someone is bringing the same army over and over, it's usually a TAC army that they built to play against anything and anyone, or a themed army. Now, anyone can tailor a list to beat an army like that, especially if they've seen it and played it a bunch of times. There's no real skill in that, and if you're tailoring to just stomp it into the ground, just because, well, yeah, that's something you should avoid. The outcome of the game is not exactly in doubt, you won't exactly be challenging the capabilities of your generalship it's not in the spirit of the game, and there's just not much reason to play something out like that in general.

So, yeah, you absolutely should feel bad.

QFT.

There are two people in my club who liked to tailor against anything and everything, not just against people who rarely change their list much, like myself, but against anyone; come over and check over their list and go build a hard counter, whether it's really neccessary or not.

Both of them stopped getting opponents, one guy learned and stopped doing it, and one hasn't and finds himself extremely isolated socially through constant dickish moves. The whole "it's legal so it's okay" is a complete fallacy, as GW's model is entirely based on providing as few restrictions as possible and harp on the fact that you should be making a mutually agreeable game your opponent within this very open framework.

It expects good, camaraderie behaviour to make decent use of their garbage ruleset. If that environment is super competitive, swell, if not, then you should totally feel bad or being a dick to your opponents and friends. Speaking personally, my own friendship with the unchanging WAACer has been very strained by his continued abuse of the ruleset and other people at the club because he values winning above all else in a social project, and has made the whole club quite toxic. Don't be that guy.

Ok so a bad example on my part, how about:

Should you feel bad for using a formation from any book applicable to your army that gives you a bit of a bonus?

That's pretty much what a decurion is.

 mondo80 wrote:
Ok so a bad example on my part, how about:

Should you feel bad for using a formation from any book applicable to your army that gives you a bit of a bonus?

That's pretty much what a decurion is.

You shouldn't, no. But then again, an argument could be made for "Should you feel bad using Wave Serpents when it's obviously in your codex and can be taken in boat tons? No!"

So, yeah....

 mondo80 wrote:
Ok so a bad example on my part, how about:

Should you feel bad for using a formation from any book applicable to your army that gives you a bit of a bonus?

That's pretty much what a decurion is.

I believe the answer is "if it feels brokenly good, yes."

For example, I could be playing the triple stormraven deep strike assault formation in friendly games, (ones large enough that the formation becomes stellar,) but the rules for it are way over in that guy territory, and I can't imagine an opponent having fun by showing up to the table, watching 3 stormravens fly in from an otherwise empty table edge, and then seeing a mass of drop pods land exactly where they want, and guys and dreadnoughts walking right into his troops and tanks without them getting anything more than one overwatch shot off.

I would feel bad in magic if I was using a vintage tourney deck against a kitchen table player. I would feel bad playing basketball with an average 10 year old, (I'm 6'3" and have played for years,) and I'd feel bad winning with something obviously unbalanced in most any other game, like say magic barrier + avalanche in Quest 64. That's purely legit in the confines of the game's rules, but spamming them together makes you invincible and wins every battle.

I agree with a post I saw quite a while ago, that the decurion is definitely on the "pull punches" list. It should be stored in a glass case that says "break in case of cocky ignorant TFG."