It is obvious to any observer that the Ork codex doesn't have any super OP spammable units that usually make codexes top tier. The Ork codex doesn't seem like a very competitive Codex off the bat, with few auto-include choices and a lot of units that are hard to use. This thread is for Ork players to look at their Codex, consider in game experience, and then rank the units with brief explanations. A link to the best Ork list you can think of is also appreciated, so people have some idea of where to start, and the listmaker can get feedback and improve. Feel free to contribute as much as you want. Together, we can probably create some guidelines for competitive Ork listmaking.

One Restriction:


I'll go first. Remember, these are my opinions and aren't set in stone by any means:
Green = Da Best
Blue = Very Good
Yellow = Average
Red = Below Average (don't take in a competitve list)

HQs:


Troops


Elites


Fast Attack


Heavy Support


LoW


Feel free to post your own ranking lists or army list links. Feedback is always appreciated as well. All thoughts are welcome here, but try to keep it cordial and informative. Happy posting!

Question: what does LD have to do with perils?

Weirdboy does have some uses but he takes up slots sooooo that sucks. Idk. Sometimes when I bring multiple detachments to get 6 HQs I bring a couple since they do actually bring a pretty crazy number of psychic dice.




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Also, you should definitely talk about the different flavors of boyz.

12 man squad in Trukk with ard boyz, 20 man squad in BW with Dok and 100 man BBP green tide with KFF big Mek and Dok are all very different beasts.

Personally I believe the green tide supported by a dirt cheap CAD just for bringing big Gunz Painboyz and tankbustas/Koptas/MANz bombs/buggies is the key to competitive orks.

Orks are fine http://www.torrentoffire.com/6866/adepticon-army-breakdown-stats-stats-stats

Sunhero wrote:
Orks are fine http://www.torrentoffire.com/6866/adepticon-army-breakdown-stats-stats-stats

That's just one tournament. Did you see the stat in that link that said Orks were usually around 33% win rate? And other than Adepticon, the only recent success by Orks in GTs has been Fxeni. Still nice to see Orks doing well though.

I often take a wierdboy and am happy with results. He's definitely not a 1-st or 2-d HQ but he's my 3-d after the mandatory warboss and painboss.

Grots are great for simply being there. Want some sort of protection against H&R? Bauble wrap your boyz squad with grots on the rear. Want some protection from deathstar charges? Grots on the front. Want to run around the field to get to a point? Even the smallest hill will completely block los to grots.

I find stormboyz better than bikers for footslogging lists simply cause they can charge further and have enormous threat range with ability to go over terrain.

 koooaei wrote:
I often take a wierdboy and am happy with results. He's definitely not a 1-st or 2-d HQ but he's my 3-d after the mandatory warboss and painboss.

Grots are great for simply being there. Want some sort of protection against H&R? Bauble wrap your boyz squad with grots on the rear. Want some protection from deathstar charges? Grots on the front. Want to run around the field to get to a point? Even the smallest hill will completely block los to grots.

I find stormboyz better than bikers for footslogging lists simply cause they can charge further and have enormous threat range with ability to go over terrain.

Weirdboyz: The reason a Weirdboy has trouble with perils, is because lots of the options on the perils chart require a leadership check, and a Weirdboy only has LD 7. When choosing an HQ, there is always the question of whether a Painboy would do better in that situation, and compared to a Weirdboy the answer is usually yes. Weirdboyz are also completely shut down by any army with better psychers, and are moved to a psychic defense role. They could have a place in a Green Tide formation, simply for better psychic defense and occasional buffs, but usually a Big Mek or Warboss carrying DLS outclasses them. Weirdboyz are simply too unreliable to be good for a competitive list.

Grots: For 20 more points over Grots, you can take a minimum squad of Boyz. Boyz are far better, and can actually get stuff done. If you have points to spare, upgrade to a Boyz. If you need them for a second detachment, Grots have their uses.

Stormboyz: That's a good point about Stormboyz being better in a footslogger list. They are definitely better at super long charges than bikes, so can hide near the back until they're needed. I just think Bikes are very dependable and good at shooting. Each bike averages 1.66 S5 hits per turn shooting, which is a great amount of damage. They are also very good at Overwatch, and are consistently speedy compared to Stormboyz who kill themselves when they move fast. I think there could be room for both in a list, as they have different roles.

Wierdboyz are often underestimated. They're cheap for what they add to the list.

At first i thouht a wierdboy would be a waste but than i actually tried one. And now i've got a converted wierdboy in every second list.


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Also, tankbustas clearly deserve green.

 koooaei wrote:
Wierdboyz are often underestimated. They're cheap for what they add to the list.

At first i thouht a wierdboy would be a waste but than i actually tried one. And now i've got a converted wierdboy in every second list.


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Also, tankbustas clearly deserve green.

Changed colors on Weirdboyz and Tankbustas

When warboss must always issue a challenge and we cant hide him even in green tide due to challenge rules, its not good in my eyes. Sadly i must admit that only spaming boyz is the most competitve way to play orks.

If you hide the Warboss at the back, out of combat range, then he can avoid challenges.

Mr.T wrote:
When warboss must always issue a challenge and we cant hide him even in green tide due to challenge rules.

What rules are you thinking of? If the Warboss isn't engaged, he can't challenge.
It's very easy to hide him in a Green Tide.

Now to issue challenge unit must be locked in combat. There is nothing about be engage to issue challenge, just lock in combat. To accept challenge model must be engage. See rb at page 101. Thats main change in challenges in 7th edition.

Mr.T wrote:
Now to issue challenge unit must be locked in combat. There is nothing about be engage to issue challenge, just lock in combat. To accept challenge model must be engage. See rb at page 101. Thats main change in challenges in 7th edition.

the model must be able to strike too. So, nothin has chaned here so far. You can avoid challenges being out of combat range.

The model must be able to strike to accept the challenge, it only has to be locked in combat to issue it.

"To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger"

and

"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges"

There are different rules for issuing and accepting

Big Meks are average? Really?
They are of great flexibility - Biked KFF, MA in Mek Gunz, SAG ones (alright, the latter aren't competitive).
And I can't see the argument of "Burnaboyz lacking delivery system". Just like all the previous years sit 'em in a BW and fry anyone who gets close.


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 koooaei wrote:
Wierdboyz are often underestimated. They're cheap for what they add to the list.

At first i thouht a wierdboy would be a waste but than i actually tried one. And now i've got a converted wierdboy in every second list.

Just got interested, how do you run him? What lvl and what discipline?
I guess, he is in a blob of footslogging boys?

Ghazghkull Thraka - GW just seems to hate this fellow, as they made him obsolete compared to a DLS MA Warboss who does practically everything better.

Ghazghkull Thraka?

I think his backstory's cool.

What makes him so bad?

I think you've generalised Boyz too much , as 11 sluggas with big choppy and boss pole Nob does a lot of damage in a trukk.

Same for Stormboyz, while Deffkoptas are best in slot competitively, they make a good vanguard to tie up key units (had a good game where they stopped three centurions from doing anything for four turns!)

Also think planes are situationally good, but generally aren't too powerful (fun for fluffy stuff, though)

Cowboy_Jerry wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Wierdboyz are often underestimated. They're cheap for what they add to the list.

At first i thouht a wierdboy would be a waste but than i actually tried one. And now i've got a converted wierdboy in every second list.

Just got interested, how do you run him? What lvl and what discipline?
I guess, he is in a blob of footslogging boys?

I often run him either with 30 choppaboyz, boss and painboss or in 30 shootaboyz + Grotsnik when i'm going for double cad. if the blobs are close, i often keep him near the second one so that he can join another squad when needed - depending on his powers.

I always take ML2 and have run him with orky powers so far. Basically, only 'eadbanger and vomit (cause it's only real value for a footslogging wierdboy is frightening off deepstrikers) are meh - other powers are good.

I wouldn't say that grots are bad. They can run in front of the boyz to give cover, they can eat overwatch, they can hide behind anything so only barrage weapons will be able to shoot at them.
I would rate Ghaz as average - he doesn't take an HQ slot so you can take an additional Painboy, he can't be oneshoted, he has a usefull warlord trait. Not too great, but far from bad.

TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I think you've generalised Boyz too much , as 11 sluggas with big choppy and boss pole Nob does a lot of damage in a trukk.

I think you and I would probably disagree on the best loadout for boyz, but I definitely agree that boyz are better than the OP suggests. Point for point, they are great.

Sluggas do depend on getting the charge, but come on, every unit has a weakness. Shootas are less hurt by this as they have awesome overwatch.

Also think planes are situationally good, but generally aren't too powerful (fun for fluffy stuff, though)

I like using planes for hitting backfield units that my boyz can't reach during their turn 2 charge, such as tanks and artillery (via side armour) or (my personal favourite) synapse creatures. The Dakkajet is best for this role and it is probably the most reliable of the Ork planes; there is usually something on the board that it can take out.

I see a lot of damage potential for the burna bommer vs certain armies, but it hasn't realised that potential in the games I have played thus far. One was where he got intercepted by my guard opponent before he was allowed to shoot (he would have incinerated the huge guard blobs), and the other was where I just had horrendous luck with the accuracy of my shooting vs necrons.

The blitza bommer is situationally good, but unlike the other planes, it will usually be unable to do significant damage on the turn it arrives, after which it can easily get shot down unless your opponent is tied up with something else or just lacks skyfire.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

Ghazghkull Thraka - GW just seems to hate this fellow, as they made him obsolete compared to a DLS MA Warboss who does practically everything better.

Ghazghkull Thraka?

I think his backstory's cool.

What makes him so bad?

Mainly, the fact that a normal warboss with da lukky stikk is far superior for everything other than challenges vs other super characters, and for half the points to boot.

Cowboy_Jerry wrote:
Big Meks are average? Really?
They are of great flexibility - Biked KFF, MA in Mek Gunz, SAG ones (alright, the latter aren't competitive).

I usually run a squad of 19 sluggas led by a warboss with da lukky stikk and power klaw in a battlewagon. However, I am thinking of switching the warboss for a big mek with da lukky stikk, kustom force field and killsaw. I think this will give a great boost to survivability (including the wagon). In exchange I lose one less attack and one or two points of strength (depending on whether or not I am charging), but with armourbane on the killsaw this is not such a big deal, and wounds are rerollable at the end of the day. Squad still gets its WS5 bonus.

Alternatively, if you are running a Great Waaagh! detachment, you can give him a mega force field for the same amount of points as DLS +KFF.

Cowboy_Jerry wrote:
And I can't see the argument of "Burnaboyz lacking delivery system". Just like all the previous years sit 'em in a BW and fry anyone who gets close.

I haven't tried this loadout, but my understanding is that this tactic is nowhere near as effective as it once was due to the new rules on wound allocation from shooting. The way they are now, they seem quite easy to kill for such expensive troops.

 Krusha wrote:

TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I think you've generalised Boyz too much , as 11 sluggas with big choppy and boss pole Nob does a lot of damage in a trukk.

I haven't tried this loadout, but my understanding is that this tactic is nowhere near as effective as it once was due to the new rules on wound allocation from shooting. The way they are now, they seem quite easy to kill for such expensive troops.

Well, they are only 1 point more expensive than in the previous edition (just like shootaboys - but these guys are taken now, aren't they?). I can't say for sure, but despite rules for wound allocation they will almost always cover the entire squad with templates. Just not laying a single one as before, but spread them.
I'm looking forward to buying a box of them to get a squad of 12.

Cowboy_Jerry wrote:

Well, they are only 1 point more expensive than in the previous edition (just like shootaboys - but these guys are taken now, aren't they?). I can't say for sure, but despite rules for wound allocation they will almost always cover the entire squad with templates. Just not laying a single one as before, but spread them.
I'm looking forward to buying a box of them to get a squad of 12.

I don't mean that they are too expensive compared to their previous incarnation. Their fragility for their cost was always a weakness. However, their damage output used to compensate for this due to the way the shooting rules worked, but now that the rules have changed it's not so worthwhile.

I thought, when firing burnas from open-topped vehicles, you HAD to put a single template down. If I am wrong about this then I will concede the point and happily invest in some burnas myself, but this seems to go against the conventional wisdom.

If you use them as power weapons, then you will be striking after any unit that they are actually worth using on - so again, boyz win.

Also, shoota boyz are not really more expensive when you factor in the free stikkbombz that used to be +1 per model.

My absolute favorite units are Meganobz. Ten of them trecking dangerously forward towards the enemy amongst a swirl of their lessers.

 Jancoran wrote:
My absolute favorite units are Meganobz. Ten of them trecking dangerously forward towards the enemy amongst a swirl of their lessers.

Use an escape hatch and they're not 'dangerously slogging' now. More like 'OMG THEY'RE SO CLOSE!!1'


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Burnas used to wipe squads before. But now they can't kill further than 8" away due to wound pool getting eemptied the moment everyone within range and los is dead

Ok, time for me to justify some of my rankings:

Boyz- I made this article about how to run them effectively: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/636159.page. The reason I rated them as average, is because without HQ support, and without the charge, they aren't very stellar. If they are charged by WS 4 T 4, they deal .5 wounds each before armor, compared to 1 wound each before armor if they are charging. Literally half as effective being charged. They also die very easily if not protected by a Painboy or Big Mek with KFF. If they have a Painboy in the squad, they go up to blue ranking, because it drastically increases their survivability. A KFF Big Mek comes in second for the increase in Survivability.

Big Mek- because the save he grants is usually inferior to a Painboy, he isn't as useful overall. The two uses I can think of, that would increase him to blue status, would be on a bike protecting a vehicle wall, or in MA giving SNP to Mek Gunz or Lootas (and probably toting a KFF so those shooty units had some protection).

Burnas- the problem is that if you want them to shoot, the vehicle they're in can only move 6". Your opponent will likely prioritize killing that vehicle first, and then you have 16 point Boyz that become very costly target practice.

Planes- they can't really do well in a competitive meta designed to kill 3 or 4 flying Nid Tyrants. They will get wrecked very quickly, and don't do enough damage to justify it. A Dakkajet on average (even without jink) kills about 2 MEQ a turn. The Burna-Bommer could be useful with its ignores cover, but still fills an Anti-Infantry role that Orks aren't really lacking. The Blitza-Bommer actually fills a unique AT/Anti-Heavy Infantry role that Orks need. On the turn it comes in, it can drop a bomb on anything close to your table edge and absolutely wreck it. However, it has the potential to kill itself with its random table, and it only has 2 bombs, so it still isn't anything better than yellow on the scale.

I hope these explanations make sense, but feel free to refute them if you wish.

Blitza bomber can bomb invisible units with s7 ap2 pieplates. It's much more reliable than hammers of wraith, wierdboy'z killbolt and much cheaper than stomps.

I avoid Escalation and Stronghold Stuff like the plague other than normal bastions and defense lines and platforms. I also dont play with Forge World.

Im a bit of a purist.

 Jancoran wrote:

Im a bit of a purist.

Sounds religious

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Big Mek- because the save he grants is usually inferior to a Painboy, he isn't as useful overall. The two uses I can think of, that would increase him to blue status, would be on a bike protecting a vehicle wall, or in MA giving SNP to Mek Gunz or Lootas (and probably toting a KFF so those shooty units had some protection).

The part in bold is where I disagree. It sounds like you are judging him based solely on the save he provides, and even that is debatable.

The kustom force field protects the vehicle that the squad is embarked upon in addition to the squad itself, which is a significant advantage. It also grants protection against instant death weapons that would nullify feel no pain.

The other advantage of the big mek is that he brings other powers to the table beyond the save. He has higher leadership, and he can take da lukky stikk, a killsaw and even mega armour. Definitely a viable choice IMHO. Personally I would rather use him for boyz and the painboy for more expensive units that already have some kind of decent save.

I would say that I disagreed with you about regular nobz, as mine are probably my most powerful unit, but I appreciate that you are talking about a competitive context where S8 spam may be more common than it is at my FLGS.

 Krusha wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Big Mek- because the save he grants is usually inferior to a Painboy, he isn't as useful overall. The two uses I can think of, that would increase him to blue status, would be on a bike protecting a vehicle wall, or in MA giving SNP to Mek Gunz or Lootas (and probably toting a KFF so those shooty units had some protection).

The part in bold is where I disagree. It sounds like you are judging him based solely on the save he provides, and even that is debatable.

The kustom force field protects the vehicle that the squad is embarked upon in addition to the squad itself, which is a significant advantage. It also grants protection against instant death weapons that would nullify feel no pain.

The other advantage of the big mek is that he brings other powers to the table beyond the save. He has higher leadership, and he can take da lukky stikk, a killsaw and even mega armour. Definitely a viable choice IMHO. Personally I would rather use him for boyz and the painboy for more expensive units that already have some kind of decent save.

I would say that I disagreed with you about regular nobz, as mine are probably my most powerful unit, but I appreciate that you are talking about a competitive context where S8 spam may be more common than it is at my FLGS.

I guess being able to take relics is another plus of taking a Big Mek. If you read the last part of the quote you used, I bring up the SNP usefulness, as well as protecting vehicles. The reason a Painboy is usually better than a Big Mek, is that you're less vulnerable to blasts, and you get your save in combat. Protecting your vehicle with a Big Mek is OK, but then they can just snipe the other vehicles in your list as they are unprotected, or just blow through the 5++ save on the vehicle. I also didn't consider his higher leadership value, which definitely helps with Orks. The three builds I would most likely run are:
Big Mek with bosspole, Mega-Armor, ammo runt, and KFF (optional). This guy is good for protecting Lootas, as he can tank some of the hits, and shield them in the open, as well as providing substantial LD boosts and Mob Rule boosts. He can also run with Mek Gunz with this build for most of the same benefits.
Big Mek with Gazbag's Blitzbike, bosspole, and KFF. This guy runs with Deffkoptas to be powerful anti-MEQ and Anti-Light Vehicle. He can zoom around quickly to protect the other vehicles in the list.
Big Mek with Killsaw, 'eavy armor, DLS and KFF. This build I would only use in a Green Tide formation to hold DLS, because as you said a Painboy cannot do this. He is also potent against Imperial Knights with this build.
I'll upgrade him to blue status on the ranking list based on this feedback, as he is definitely viable.

With mega armour, DLS and a killsaw he is actually half decent in challenges, too. Same number of attacks as a warboss, still wounding on 2+ with no armour save, still instagibbing most targets that can be instagibbed, and rerollable 2+ armour save is all but impenetrable to most weapons that strike at initiative.

But then why not invest the 15 points (25-the killsaw) to upgrade to a warboss for +1str (doubles for powerclaw) +1 toughness (this helps a lot agains high volume, low str shots + only ID on str 10), +1 wounds and +1 leadership. You do lose the armourbane and the repair from the mek.

Not saying that the mek with that loadout is bad, it just seems that the warboss is better.

killerdou wrote:
But then why not invest the 15 points (25-the killsaw) to upgrade to a warboss for +1str (doubles for powerclaw) +1 toughness (this helps a lot agains high volume, low str shots + only ID on str 10), +1 wounds and +1 leadership. You do lose the armourbane and the repair from the mek.

Not saying that the mek with that loadout is bad, it just seems that the warboss is better.

I only recommend the loadout if you're giving it to a Big Mek inside the Green Tide formation, otherwise it's better to give your Warboss DLS. The Big Mek can give a KFF save to Boyz in the Green Tide, and can tote relics (DLS) which the Painboy can't do. Da Lucky Stikk is VERY important in the Green Tide formation, so you either need a Big Mek to carry it, or a second Warboss. As you said, the Warboss with DLS is better, so a Big Mek outside that formation shouldn't have that loadout.

Poor Gretchin - getting a red rating! What, no love for the little guys? I think they're great!

Soo often I find myself wishing I had fearless on things.

It's bad enough that I'll reroll every warlord trait that isn't a 1. I really think every list should seek ways to be fearless.

Bullyboyz, Big Stick, praying for that warlord trait on warboss, even considering a stompa.

Reroll ing all failed checks is a nice thing too.

 Fxeni wrote:
Poor Gretchin - getting a red rating! What, no love for the little guys? I think they're great!

Gasp! The great Warboss himself has made a comment!

The reason I ranked Gretchin as Red is because their only use in a competitive list is to unlock a 2nd CAD. If I ranked them yellow, the level I ranked Boyz at, then they would seem like equals. Given the choice, you should always choose Boyz over Gretchin if you have the points (and you should try your best to find the points). Grots can be useful (there's a battle report somewhere featuring THE GROT, who blocked an imperial knight to win the game), but they should not be chosen unless you need to fill a troops requirement. Gretchin just die too easy and have almost no damage output.

To clarify-- there's no lack of love for Gretchin (everybody loves these little guys). It's just they don't do anything other than become target practice for the enemy, so they aren't very competitive.

killerdou wrote:
But then why not invest the 15 points (25-the killsaw) to upgrade to a warboss for +1str (doubles for powerclaw) +1 toughness (this helps a lot agains high volume, low str shots + only ID on str 10), +1 wounds and +1 leadership. You do lose the armourbane and the repair from the mek.

Not saying that the mek with that loadout is bad, it just seems that the warboss is better.

Because you can use the warboss elsewhere and the warboss can't take a kustom force field to protect the boyz. It's a question of how these characters gel with their squad, not just how powerful they are in their own right. This is why I don't give my warboss mega armour.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:
Poor Gretchin - getting a red rating! What, no love for the little guys? I think they're great!

Gasp! The great Warboss himself has made a comment!

The reason I ranked Gretchin as Red is because their only use in a competitive list is to unlock a 2nd CAD. If I ranked them yellow, the level I ranked Boyz at, then they would seem like equals. Given the choice, you should always choose Boyz over Gretchin if you have the points (and you should try your best to find the points). Grots can be useful (there's a battle report somewhere featuring THE GROT, who blocked an imperial knight to win the game), but they should not be chosen unless you need to fill a troops requirement. Gretchin just die too easy and have almost no damage output.

To clarify-- there's no lack of love for Gretchin (everybody loves these little guys). It's just they don't do anything other than become target practice for the enemy, so they aren't very competitive.

I understand your point, but I still disagree with you.

First of all, I agree that, in a vaccum (assuming boyz were the same points cost as grots), Boyz would be better. But in reality, they cost nearly twice as much. 35 pts for 11 models (gretchin) vs 66 points for 11 models (boyz) is nearly a 2:1 favor in the grots. Furthermore, both units have the same ld (7) and will run away at the first sign of any trouble.

I would actually argue that boyz are better then yellow merely because of their flexibility, but that grots are also better then that too. Granted, very few people take gretchin for something other then filling a troop slot (I myself am included in that territory), but that doesn't mean they aren't good! Wasting shooting on a unit that can go to ground for little to no cost makes them far more useful then boyz, and unlike boyz, Grots make WAY better screeners and are much better at hiding out of LOS.

A unit doesn't need to have damage output to be useful - they merely need to have tools to contribute to the list. You won't be using Gretchin to kill something, but if we're going off of that metric, then other units that basically kill nothing include Eldar Jetbikers, Battlewagons, Drop Pods, and Venomthropes. These things have their use in a list because they have tools to contribute, and I NEVER have a game where I didn't find the 35 points spent on gretchin to be worth it - it's just so damn cheap!

Just my 2 cents.

 Fxeni wrote:
...and I NEVER have a game where I didn't find the 35 points spent on gretchin to be worth it - it's just so damn cheap!

And what about 40 pts? I like giving my runtherd a squighound. He's usually killing more grots than the enemy but is almost never running away from shooting.

 Fxeni wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:
Poor Gretchin - getting a red rating! What, no love for the little guys? I think they're great!

Gasp! The great Warboss himself has made a comment!

The reason I ranked Gretchin as Red is because their only use in a competitive list is to unlock a 2nd CAD. If I ranked them yellow, the level I ranked Boyz at, then they would seem like equals. Given the choice, you should always choose Boyz over Gretchin if you have the points (and you should try your best to find the points). Grots can be useful (there's a battle report somewhere featuring THE GROT, who blocked an imperial knight to win the game), but they should not be chosen unless you need to fill a troops requirement. Gretchin just die too easy and have almost no damage output.

To clarify-- there's no lack of love for Gretchin (everybody loves these little guys). It's just they don't do anything other than become target practice for the enemy, so they aren't very competitive.

I understand your point, but I still disagree with you.

First of all, I agree that, in a vaccum (assuming boyz were the same points cost as grots), Boyz would be better. But in reality, they cost nearly twice as much. 35 pts for 11 models (gretchin) vs 66 points for 11 models (boyz) is nearly a 2:1 favor in the grots. Furthermore, both units have the same ld (7) and will run away at the first sign of any trouble.

I would actually argue that boyz are better then yellow merely because of their flexibility, but that grots are also better then that too. Granted, very few people take gretchin for something other then filling a troop slot (I myself am included in that territory), but that doesn't mean they aren't good! Wasting shooting on a unit that can go to ground for little to no cost makes them far more useful then boyz, and unlike boyz, Grots make WAY better screeners and are much better at hiding out of LOS.

A unit doesn't need to have damage output to be useful - they merely need to have tools to contribute to the list. You won't be using Gretchin to kill something, but if we're going off of that metric, then other units that basically kill nothing include Eldar Jetbikers, Battlewagons, Drop Pods, and Venomthropes. These things have their use in a list because they have tools to contribute, and I NEVER have a game where I didn't find the 35 points spent on gretchin to be worth it - it's just so damn cheap!

Just my 2 cents.

The point I'm trying to make, is that if you have to choose between a unit of Grechin, and a variety of other options, those other choices are superior. Gretchin CAN hide in the back, they CAN be screeners, and they CAN take up space. But Orks have other units that can do those things. For +10 points on Gretchin, you can get a Painboy who shelters a vital squad, taking the place of a screen. Or for -10 points, you can have a Deffkopta jump in front of a unit of Boyz to block an enemy charge. For +10 points on the cost of a Gretchin squad, you can get a KFF for a Big Mek, or just get more models in the squad you were protecting. For the cost of a Gretchin squad, you can get a Mek Gun, that can hide at the back and actually contribute to the battle other than just being there.

Comparing them to Boyz one sees that for two times the cost of a Gretchin, you get double WS, +1 Strength (and Furious charge), double Toughness, +2 Attacks (including 2 CC weapons), and +2 LD (though I will admit with a Runtherd this is moot). So for twice the cost, you're getting a unit that is far superior, better than twice as good. It takes the shooting of a full squad of Gretchin to kill 1.5 Ork Boyz (including Runtherd shooting), and if a full squad of Gretchin charge Boyz, they kill a devastating 1.66 Boyz, and half of that is from the Runtherd! Because they are so weak, and other units can fill their role, they cannot be justified except to get another detachment.

I really wish Gretchin got more love from GW, it's just they aren't particularly good right now, as their role can be filled by other things that are better.

Their statline could be worse and I'd still pay 35 points for a troop chioce that stands behind everything and scores points. It's a steal.

I know everyone is sticking up for units they don't feel deserve the ratings you have for them...i suppose I'm no different.

The reliability, survivability and affordability of Flashgitz.
For reliability, which you commented on, I would like to come to their defense. Unlike most Orcs, each and every Flashgit comes standard with a Gitfinda which, if they did not move, means they fire at ballistic skill 3. That's about a 17% hike in accuracy from all other Orcs. Their weapon is also assault 3. So hitting 50% of the time, with a unit of 10 gives you 30 shots, 15 hits. And lets talk about wounds. The snazzguns are strength 5, which means against most armies they wound on 2's, against Marines they wound on 3s. That means against most stores they around 83% of the time, 66% against Necron, Marines, Orcs... Now the reliability you had a problem must then come from their AP? Well they are AP d6, which throws off a lot of players. But math wise, that means they outright kill armor 6, 100%; armor 5, 83%; armor 4, 66%; armor 3 50%; and armor 2, 33% of the time. Honestly, for killing Necron, which I play a lot of, they're great. So 30 shots becomes 15 hits becomes 7.5 sounds that 50% of the time outright kill Marines, 50% of the time lead to an armor save, so that's 8-2 dead Marines shooting. Now lets remember, Flashgitz are nobs. That means they can then charge with weapon skill 4, 4 attacks each, 40 total, at strength 5. Which against Marines is 20 his, 15'ish wounds in a 3+ save is 5'ish more dead Marines... So your squad of 10, Flashgitz kills a unit of 10space Marines most of the time once you subtract Marines possible 1 kill in Overwatch, 1 in the assault phase, they still are dead even getting their armor saves as we kill them on their assault phase next turn.

Survivability? Well...20 wounds, in what better stay in a battlewagon... As survivable as most Orcs.

As for cost... Well compared to nobs, which are awful, their snazzgun costs -6 points, and compared to most Orcs with good shooting...Lootas? They cost 10 points more for 5 more wounds and a gun that you can move with, has 3 shots every turn, and comes on a guy with initiative 3 strength 4 and 3 attacks base...i like them. I'm sure most don't agree, but. If everyone else is going to stick up for their favorites, I wanted mine defended also.

I don't see why the Walkers got such a low rating.

 Rismonite wrote:
Their statline could be worse and I'd still pay 35 points for a troop chioce that stands behind everything and scores points. It's a steal.

If you're going to do that, leave a Deffkopta back there. It's actually less points, can take shots at things with a TL Rokkit, and can turbo-boost somewhere else if you ever need him to. "But he doesn't have Objective Secured," might be a protest. But remember, Grots die to any fire or assault at all, so if the enemy is in a position to take the objective, they WILL be taking it.

FratHammer wrote:
I know everyone is sticking up for units they don't feel deserve the ratings you have for them...i suppose I'm no different.

The reliability, survivability and affordability of Flashgitz.
For reliability, which you commented on, I would like to come to their defense. Unlike most Orcs, each and every Flashgit comes standard with a Gitfinda which, if they did not move, means they fire at ballistic skill 3. That's about a 17% hike in accuracy from all other Orcs. Their weapon is also assault 3. So hitting 50% of the time, with a unit of 10 gives you 30 shots, 15 hits. And lets talk about wounds. The snazzguns are strength 5, which means against most armies they wound on 2's, against Marines they wound on 3s. That means against most stores they around 83% of the time, 66% against Necron, Marines, Orcs... Now the reliability you had a problem must then come from their AP? Well they are AP d6, which throws off a lot of players. But math wise, that means they outright kill armor 6, 100%; armor 5, 83%; armor 4, 66%; armor 3 50%; and armor 2, 33% of the time. Honestly, for killing Necron, which I play a lot of, they're great. So 30 shots becomes 15 hits becomes 7.5 sounds that 50% of the time outright kill Marines, 50% of the time lead to an armor save, so that's 8-2 dead Marines shooting. Now lets remember, Flashgitz are nobs. That means they can then charge with weapon skill 4, 4 attacks each, 40 total, at strength 5. Which against Marines is 20 his, 15'ish wounds in a 3+ save is 5'ish more dead Marines... So your squad of 10, Flashgitz kills a unit of 10space Marines most of the time once you subtract Marines possible 1 kill in Overwatch, 1 in the assault phase, they still are dead even getting their armor saves as we kill them on their assault phase next turn.

Survivability? Well...20 wounds, in what better stay in a battlewagon... As survivable as most Orcs.

As for cost... Well compared to nobs, which are awful, their snazzgun costs -6 points, and compared to most Orcs with good shooting...Lootas? They cost 10 points more for 5 more wounds and a gun that you can move with, has 3 shots every turn, and comes on a guy with initiative 3 strength 4 and 3 attacks base...i like them. I'm sure most don't agree, but. If everyone else is going to stick up for their favorites, I wanted mine defended also.

Flash Gitz are one of my favorite units fluffwise, so I'm glad to see someone sticking up for them . You definitely extolled their offensive power pretty well, but their problem is limited range, and lack of ideal situation.

Let's look at an IDEAL situation:

Let's look at a REALISTIC situation:

The obvious problem is that even with ideal conditions, it's time consuming to make your points back, and if you're taking sustained firepower, you won't make your points back at all. Even if you do, you aren't going to last very long to do much with it unless you invest in some HQ support. The other reason Flash Gitz don't end in a favorable light is because they live in the Shadow of Mek Gunz and Lootas.

First let's look at Mek Gunz. A full battery of Kustom Mega-Kannons with all the ammo runts and extra Grots is 200 points (not that you need extra Gretchin crew all the time). It is an imposing T7, with a 3+ save on the Kannons themselves. They also have many 3 point T7 Grot crewmen to tank wounds. A 36" range allows them to start firing turn 1. If we assume 1.5 hits per cannon, we see that a battery of 5 has 7.5 hits, and 6.25 kills. That is 112 points of damage from an average volley. That's almost as many deaths as an optimally positioned squad of Flash Gitz that had suffered no damage at all did. And these artillery pieces are going to do that every game, because they have 20 T7 wounds. They are a far superior choice to Flash Gitz.

Looking at Lootas, it seems a bit more even. A 15 man Loota squad is 210 points, so 10 points short of your Flash Git squad.
The 15 man Loota squad will get firing turn 1, unlike the Flash Git squad, which started turn 2. Let's look at the damage output at the same Marine squad. Keep in mind that moving and firing isn't an issue because Lootas have twice the range of Flash Gitz. This also means they can camp in a piece of cover in your deployment zone (irrelevant though). 15 man squad averages 30 shots. 30 shots, 10 hits, 8.33 wounds, 2.77 dead marines. So the Lootas killed 50 points of marines. In the Flash Git example, we gave them 4 IDEAL game turns to make their points back. Given 4 turns in a more average game, Lootas deal 200 points of damage, and remain safely intact in your backfield, ready to keep firing. Opponents will shoot at Lootas much less often then Gitz because Gitz are in range of Bolters and the like, while Lootas are only in range of missile launchers or infiltrating troops. The enemy also has to fire past your whole horde of on rushing orks to shoot at Lootas. Even if you aren't convinced Lootas aren't better against MEQ, just think about other armies. Flash Gitz will always face roughly the same firepower when they advance. If they aren't fighting 18 point marines, then they can't possibly make their points back against a more lightly armored, cheaper, force with equal firepower. Lootas can be useful against light vehicles, flyers, and monstrous creatures, so they will always have a good target.

I really wish Flash Gitz were better (4+ armor would go a long way), but unfortunately they are outclassed by other Heavy Support options.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Their statline could be worse and I'd still pay 35 points for a troop chioce that stands behind everything and scores points. It's a steal.

If you're going to do that, leave a Deffkopta back there. It's actually less points, can take shots at things with a TL Rokkit, and can turbo-boost somewhere else if you ever need him to. "But he doesn't have Objective Secured," might be a protest. But remember, Grots die to any fire or assault at all, so if the enemy is in a position to take the objective, they WILL be taking it.

Actually I kind of like the thinking with trying that. Save me some points for some 5 point upgrades I might like. Must try in my next game.

I will hate removing my painted grots from field though some of the few painted models I have. Maybe I'll drop a trukk unit of boyz, keep grots, and field a dakkajet with that copta

Just to reinforce the legit nature of tankbustas, just freAK rolled four hull points off a land raider on turn two with fifteen of them. Mork was pleased, Gork baffled. (Guys I rolled gud dice and have to tell somebody)

18, I think we have different play styles, or you overestimate everyone else who plays thinking Flashgitz are a threat. Because, in my army I run 2-4 battlewagons. Of its 2 then I'm also running trukks. Like most people, you consider Flashgitz worthless, and I reinforce that idea in my opponents heads turn one. So you must be moving your be 6" and shooting then moving 6" and shooting in your ideal example. That's wrong. You move 12" and snapfire. You might get a kill, if you're lucky. But you've done two things. 1, you've reinforced what people think of Flashgitz. 2, you've gotten in a good position to have 24" range on 1+ units. Now with 2bws with 3manz squads to include my wb and grotsnik or Tankbustas, or bikes already in their face or trukks running down the field, are they going to Terry to drop the seemingly useless shooty Orcs? Nah. They worry about what most orc players run. Turn 2+ it goes down with you having a 50% hit chance not a piddly 33% and if you feel the need that charge is always in range when you've moved 12, turn 1, then the waagghh turn you move, dismount, run charge. But if you run a sent with only 1bw, no trukks, no bikes or stormboys, no forge world tanks and no stormboys... Then, yes, left with the only option to fire at they will all die.

And keep on mind, lootas can roll 1 on a d3 all day and they won't cut armor. Flashgitz will always give you 30 shots, that can be rerolled with ammo runts on the AP cutting shots, or charge and not die like chumps in combat. Since the new codex my lootas gather dust till cron-air comes back.

And the mek guns are great, no one can deny that, but if they are assaulted, forced to make a leadership, or not in range... They become paperweights. Flashgitz can move, assault, and have mob rule.

Well, a squad of grots is somewhat more durable than a kopta and cover more space.
Besides, they're great for opening a 2-d or even 3-d cad. Not saying that you should always pick grots over koptas or vise versa - it's just not an even choice.

I agree that gretchin are more usefull than rated. 35 points for 11 woinds troop choice. I don't care what stats they have.

I disagree with flash gitz being red. They deserve blue at least. Their extremely versatile in shooting and assault. Unlike lootas who are stationary. The d6 AP means half the time you are ignoring most armor saves even on MC's.

10 flash gitz is 220 and 15 lootas is 210.

gitz 30 shots
lootas 15 -45 shots

vs say a unit of marines 50% of the time gitz will kill 6.5 at AP3 or better or around 2.5 if the AP is 4 or worse. This is at BD 2 gets better if they don't move.

Lootas if they get 45 shots will kill 4 marines.
2 .5 at 30 shots and 1 if they get 15 shots.

I think lootas are more random than flash gitz and not as good in cc or mobile. And gitz are better at MC hunting due to higher avg shots and ability to get AP 3 or better.

So flash gitz need a blue or at least a yellow imo.

I love flash gitz

I feel they need just too many things to fill a move shoot assault rile, and can't compare to the heavy support slot they are in. They are the bubblechucka of mek gunz..

Speaking of mek gunz, any rich folk on here try spamming them with MA ICs to get mobile artillery that grounds fliers and drops barrage on Invisible stars?

Cause it sounds hawt

EDIT, Flash gitz and Lootas shouldn't be comparable at all, that common comparison is a big hint that flash gitz are in the wrong slot and serve as an overflow nob choice if you don't have elite slots.. which is also hard to run out of since mote shoota boyz both unlock more elites in second detachment and are more efficient in everything but getting hit with a template.

Editedit and I mean lower than Str 7 template

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I disagree with flash gitz being red. They deserve blue at least. Their extremely versatile in shooting and assault. Unlike lootas who are stationary.

10 flash gitz is 220 and 15 lootas is 210. gitz 30 shots. lootas 15 -45 shots

Okay, maybe you can argue yellow, but definitely not blue.
1. You can't say that Lootas are less versatile than Flash Gitz because they're stationary. That's complete nonesense. Otherwise, by the same logic, Flash Gits would be better than the Mek Gunz. Lootas can either camp in terrain, behind an ADL or move around with a Mega Armored character.

2. Lootas have MUCH longer range than Flash Gitz, which is REALLY useful for taking out light vehicles, fliers or monstrous creatures. Strength 7 IS a really important thing in an ork army. This means they are more versatile BECAUSE they don't have to move around trying to get in range to kill something. They don't typically need to move because they don't have to.

3. If you want Flash Gitz to get into range of your opponent, then (typically) you need a transport, otherwise you'd be walking across the field. As these models have no Eavy Armour, Cyborg Armor or high numbers, walking will mean they'll be insta killed. Regardless of their 2 wounds. There's enough things out there these days which can just laugh at their pathetically short range. Their range is too short for them to camp backfield.

So if you have a transport, then you're instantly increasing the cost required to run the unit. Which throws your calculations right off. Try doing the calculations for Lootas and Flash Gits vs a model which is 40 inches away and with Armour 10. Or a flier. Or a flying monsterous creature. This is where the true versitility lies, and this is why Lootas are chosen in competitive lists over Flash Gits.

And remember, if you take a transport, you're reducing the number of points you could potentially spend elsewhere in your army. To top off, most transports will explode, leaving a very nasty hit on your Flash Gitz, forcing a mob rule. You've got to spend extra points then to have a Nob in that squad, otherwise your unit will most likely run away.

I love the models, but the unit themselves are like regular nobs these days. Over priced and too easy to insta kill.

Lootas have twice their range, though. Having to get in close to be effective means Flash Gitz will be more vulnerable to return fire, and more likely to lose bodies getting up the board.

Lootas also have higher strength weapons, which means they can threaten more than just infantry.

They may be more mobile, but their mobility also means you're paying for your gitfindas and never getting to use them. It's a terrible piece of equipment.

In that they're also of similar relative durability (t4, 6+ save, no access to 4+, an extra wound but with smaller unit size), I don't think it's a good comparison for the lootas. If they were Elites, they might have a place - but as is they compete with much more reliable choices in the HS slot.

EDIT: sorry, I just ended up rehashing the post above me. Disregard!

I have never had range issues with flash gitz, ever. The board is only 48 inches wide. Set up 12 inches in move 6 , that's is 30 inches to the board edge. So unless something sets up on the table edge and does advance at all,flash gitz can shoot it.

Adding an adl or character to lootas increases their cost. And with the amount of ignores cover around, cover doesn't help much. And lootas have no character or boss pole to help with leadership.

Again lootas have random shots while gitz have 3. And as for vehicle killing tank bustas are better than lootas , which in run with my gitz.

Maybe it's the army I run them with is my success. They advance with other things. I've just had more success with gitz over lootas. Due to the AP and ability in cc. I've had riptides and dreadknights laugh at lootas yet be shot down by flash gitz.

To each there own. I guess you can't rate units, unless you do i by an army by army basis and play style


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also all flash gitz come with boss poles and a character in their point cost. So no extra points added

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I have never had range issues with flash gitz, ever. The board is only 48 inches wide. Set up 12 inches in move 6 , that's is 30 inches to the board edge. So unless something sets up on the table edge and does advance at all,flash gitz can shoot it.

Adding an adl or character to lootas increases their cost. And with the amount of ignores cover around, cover doesn't help much. And lootas have no character or boss pole to help with leadership.

Again lootas have random shots while gitz have 3. And as for vehicle killing tank bustas are better than lootas , which in run with my gitz.

Maybe it's the army I run them with is my success. They advance with other things. I've just had more success with gitz over lootas. Due to the AP and ability in cc. I've had riptides and dreadknights laugh at lootas yet be shot down by flash gitz.

To each there own. I guess you can't rate units, unless you do i by an army by army basis and play style


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also all flash gitz come with boss poles and a character in their point cost. So no extra points added

Could you post a link to your list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And bosspoles don't really help an average Git if their Kaptin died. They will then only pass on a 1 if in combat, and if their Kaptin is dead then they can't pass outside of combat. This means unit-wide bosspoles isn't particularly useful. Just saying...

I'm afraid I'm another Grotophile. They are 25 points less than the minimal boy squad (not 20) and a great at many things not yet mentioned, including eating overwatch and lining the edge of the board to frustrate outflankers. They can also come on from reserves and move/run 7-12 inches to grab a backfield objective unmolested.

Come on, they deserve at least a yellow!

I think that ork boyz are one of the best troops in the game. My list contains >60% of boyz and they're doing great.

flashgitz, i like them, but from what i hear (from most posters here) is that they are just contending for the few hs slots we have. i admittedly dont see too much of a problem here, us orkz have one of the cheapest troop choices out their that can easily allow us to bring a CAD or 2. "BOOM" grots, i love these guyz. rarely do i not take them to a game. besides from being cheep CAD unlocks, they have always been astounding objective campers. the only time they are in peril is when they are assaulted (they are deceivingly good at surviving shooting), but by that time they can usually tie up the assaulter until your ork reinforcements kromp them from behind (just how mork likes it).

my friend often wonders why i dont put my grots in reserves just to allow them to survive his first turn of shooting, but you know what, he has never targeted a grot when the rest of my army and all the deadly gubbins are marching up the field. you may think they are week and good for nothing, but thats from just looking at stats, try some of them in games, i know they have been the best in mine.

People talk about drop podding meltas a lot especially in tournaments but I never really saw the problem as an Ork player leading me to question the stompa's rating. Even with meltas if you have your stompa outfitted properly (Grot Riggers and a buttload of meks) it would never go down unless they could pull it off in one turn. With that being said there are several references in this article alone to bubble wrapping so I don't see why it wouldn't work with a Stompa. Simply keeping those drop podding tools out of melta range and then charging them with your bubble wrap or blasting them to kingdom come with your stompa should suffice to prevent anyone from even trying that cheese on you. once his melta vets come in they won't be able to do too much to your stompa letting you leisurely blam to hell one unit a turn. I am not talking about a cover save here. Keep in mind melta range is only 6" spacing out just one squad of boyz hell even a full squad of grots could protect a stompa pretty damn well from Turn 1 melta cheese. Your only real opposition might come from IG lascannon spam which is what that big mek with a KFF inside it is for.(He still needs 5's to penetrate.) That's just my opinion though.

My 1500 list is normally

2 CAD

2x painboyz

mek w/ kill saw (goes with tank bustas)

8 tank bustas

2x 20 Shoota boyz mobs
2x 10 grot mobs

2x 1 deff koptas

2x 10 flash gitz in trukks
2x traktor kannon and 2 kannons
Gun wagon (for tank bustas)

I experiment with different units for the the other 130 points or so to make it 1500. But does fairly well for me. 14 different units to score and contest with.

I feel this thread is very similar to an Ork council. People bashing eachother (albeit intellectually) over who's mobs are the shootiest and killiest. At the end of this council each warboss will go off and run with their favorite build anyway as we branch off, un-united across the galaxy.

For me, I mostly agree with the rankings of the units. But I think the Ork codex has some good internal balance, where certain units begin to excel and be more effective when taken with other specific units.

So it's hard to rate a unit on it's own effectively in the Ork codex, where synergy is one of their strongest assets.

 Icculus wrote:
I feel this thread is very similar to an Ork council. People bashing eachother (albeit intellectually) over who's mobs are the shootiest and killiest. At the end of this council each warboss will go off and run with their favorite build anyway as we branch off, un-united across the galaxy.

For me, I mostly agree with the rankings of the units. But I think the Ork codex has some good internal balance, where certain units begin to excel and be more effective when taken with other specific units.

So it's hard to rate a unit on it's own effectively in the Ork codex, where synergy is one of their strongest assets.

Well said.

Each army and play style works different. Something that's sucks in one army might be great in another.


I have been using a weird boy with tank bustas recently. Wow a 18 " S10 AP2 tank hunter beam is awesome =)

I know how good everyone thinks lobbas, kmks and traktor kannons are. The dark horse of the mek gun menagerie is definitely the bubblechucka. Against most infantry, rolling a 3-6 is pretty good. Sometimes even a 1 or 2 is ok depending on what you shoot at. against TEQ, wounding on 6's but ignoring armor will quickly pay for your cost of the kannons.

I wouldn't rate them "green" but they fill a role in the mek gun toolbox that none of the other mek guns do as well. You might struggle to find a use for them if you already deal with infantry effectively but with the diversity of formations in 7th you can almost certainly find a place for them if your list otherwise lacks effective anti-infantry or your meta is extremely heavy on ground pounders (as mine is).

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
I feel this thread is very similar to an Ork council. People bashing eachother (albeit intellectually) over who's mobs are the shootiest and killiest. At the end of this council each warboss will go off and run with their favorite build anyway as we branch off, un-united across the galaxy.

For me, I mostly agree with the rankings of the units. But I think the Ork codex has some good internal balance, where certain units begin to excel and be more effective when taken with other specific units.

So it's hard to rate a unit on it's own effectively in the Ork codex, where synergy is one of their strongest assets.

Well said.

Each army and play style works different. Something that's sucks in one army might be great in another.


I have been using a weird boy with tank bustas recently. Wow a 18 " S10 AP2 tank hunter beam is awesome =)

I never even thought about how tankhunters would confer to the weirdboy! Genius.

And weird boy have a lot of witch fires. And even with their primaris you at least get a S6 shot.

Alo da jump on tank bustas scares the crap out of vehicles.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And weird boy have a lot of witch fires. And even with their primaris you at least get a S6 shot.

Alo da jump on tank bustas scares the crap out of vehicles.

It's a really cool idea. I am thinking about incorporating it into a list for a local tournament I might be participating in. The only problem I have with it is tankbustas like to ride in boxes and weirdboys like to footslog.

pickled_heretic wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And weird boy have a lot of witch fires. And even with their primaris you at least get a S6 shot.

Alo da jump on tank bustas scares the crap out of vehicles.

It's a really cool idea. I am thinking about incorporating it into a list for a local tournament I might be participating in. The only problem I have with it is tankbustas like to ride in boxes and weirdboys like to footslog.

you can shoot Witch fire powers out of vehicles. If you roll da jump, they can disembark then jump. And since you roll powers before you deploy, you can decide where you want the weirdboy.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
People talk about drop podding meltas a lot especially in tournaments but I never really saw the problem as an Ork player leading me to question the stompa's rating. Even with meltas if you have your stompa outfitted properly (Grot Riggers and a buttload of meks) it would never go down unless they could pull it off in one turn. With that being said there are several references in this article alone to bubble wrapping so I don't see why it wouldn't work with a Stompa. Simply keeping those drop podding tools out of melta range and then charging them with your bubble wrap or blasting them to kingdom come with your stompa should suffice to prevent anyone from even trying that cheese on you. once his melta vets come in they won't be able to do too much to your stompa letting you leisurely blam to hell one unit a turn. I am not talking about a cover save here. Keep in mind melta range is only 6" spacing out just one squad of boyz hell even a full squad of grots could protect a stompa pretty damn well from Turn 1 melta cheese. Your only real opposition might come from IG lascannon spam which is what that big mek with a KFF inside it is for.(He still needs 5's to penetrate.) That's just my opinion though.

Bubble wrapping the Stompa with Grots worked really well for me last weekend but to be sure, I was much more worried about it being assaulted then shot.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/644586.page

Other opponents I didn't play also were running 4 Imperial Knights etc. but yeah in general the Grots kept both Meltas and assaulters at bay.

pickled_heretic wrote:
I know how good everyone thinks lobbas, kmks and traktor kannons are. The dark horse of the mek gun menagerie is definitely the bubblechucka. Against most infantry, rolling a 3-6 is pretty good. Sometimes even a 1 or 2 is ok depending on what you shoot at. against TEQ, wounding on 6's but ignoring armor will quickly pay for your cost of the kannons.

I think it's more of a local meta issue than usefulness. I'm the only Ork player in my area, and a lot of lists I run into don't run into alot of infantry.

pickled_heretic wrote:
I know how good everyone thinks lobbas, kmks and traktor kannons are. The dark horse of the mek gun menagerie is definitely the bubblechucka. Against most infantry, rolling a 3-6 is pretty good. Sometimes even a 1 or 2 is ok depending on what you shoot at. against TEQ, wounding on 6's but ignoring armor will quickly pay for your cost of the kannons.

I wouldn't rate them "green" but they fill a role in the mek gun toolbox that none of the other mek guns do as well. You might struggle to find a use for them if you already deal with infantry effectively but with the diversity of formations in 7th you can almost certainly find a place for them if your list otherwise lacks effective anti-infantry or your meta is extremely heavy on ground pounders (as mine is).

KMK. You might be downgrading from a large blast to a small blast, but you get a GUARANTEED S8 AP2, a level of power the Bubblechukka can only dream about. The Bubblechukka is too random, and is laughably weak compared to the KMK. Sorry to burst your bubble (I didn't mean that line to sound cruel in any way, it's just the pun was so obviously there that it would've been a sin not to say it )

FratHammer wrote:
18, I think we have different play styles, or you overestimate everyone else who plays thinking Flashgitz are a threat. Because, in my army I run 2-4 battlewagons. Of its 2 then I'm also running trukks. Like most people, you consider Flashgitz worthless, and I reinforce that idea in my opponents heads turn one. So you must be moving your be 6" and shooting then moving 6" and shooting in your ideal example. That's wrong. You move 12" and snapfire. You might get a kill, if you're lucky. But you've done two things. 1, you've reinforced what people think of Flashgitz. 2, you've gotten in a good position to have 24" range on 1+ units. Now with 2bws with 3manz squads to include my wb and grotsnik or Tankbustas, or bikes already in their face or trukks running down the field, are they going to Terry to drop the seemingly useless shooty Orcs? Nah. They worry about what most orc players run. Turn 2+ it goes down with you having a 50% hit chance not a piddly 33% and if you feel the need that charge is always in range when you've moved 12, turn 1, then the waagghh turn you move, dismount, run charge. But if you run a sent with only 1bw, no trukks, no bikes or stormboys, no forge world tanks and no stormboys... Then, yes, left with the only option to fire at they will all die.

And keep on mind, lootas can roll 1 on a d3 all day and they won't cut armor. Flashgitz will always give you 30 shots, that can be rerolled with ammo runts on the AP cutting shots, or charge and not die like chumps in combat. Since the new codex my lootas gather dust till cron-air comes back.

And the mek guns are great, no one can deny that, but if they are assaulted, forced to make a leadership, or not in range... They become paperweights. Flashgitz can move, assault, and have mob rule.

1st: I never said they were worthless, it's just they are often overshadowed. They are definitely a threat to be dealt with as they deal strong damage, they are just paper thin to compensate. There is also a lot of high strength in the competitive meta, and any S8 shots instakill the Gitz, which means that they have the potential to die pretty quickly.
2nd: I started my ideal example on turn 2, because I assumed that the Wagon flat outed turn 1.
3rd: I am a HUGE fan of that psychology trick you explained. Snap firing to reinforce their bad thoughts. That's brilliant!
4th: I always thought that ammo runts were a nifty tool for Gitz. Giving them an extra shot when they did get the ideal AL and BS. I think it is worth the cost to get 5 or 6 for the unit, but a pain to keep track of.
5th: it is more likely for Flash Gitz to roll bad AP for a whole game then it is for Lootas to only get 1 shot for the whole game. 50% chance of success with Gitz, versus 66% chance of success (2+ shots) for Lootas. That point is a bit irrelevant.
6th: Putting a Little Mek with Mek Gunz is critical, as it helps deal a little with LD. And bringing up range is a bit pointless as they have 36" range. Unless you place them badly, they will have something to shoot at. Mek Gunz are one of the best units in the Whole Dex.

You can't just skate over the downgrade from a large blast to a small blast. That is the whole reason to bring the bubblechucka over any other mek gun in the first place. Against anyone who is exploiting max coherency, a kmk will hit a single model on a hit where the chucka will hit at least at least 3 models and probably around 5 depending on your shot placement, range, and the size of the unit. even if you rolled horribly (a 2, for instance) and are only wounding on 5's you will still get more kills on e.g. GEQ or TauEQ than a KMK.

I have tried many builds since this codex came out and most made me cry... no weep in horror as how bad the orks have become.
However, there are some decent builds out there.

My favourite build is, for a 1850 point game

Zhadsnark +6 bikers incl a nob with PK
Squad of 6 bikers incl Nob with PK
Squad of 6 bikers incl Nob with PK

These are highly mobile and scoring(obj secured) because of zhadsnark and can take quite a bit of punishment. But watch it.... lots of ignore cover weapons these days...sadly...

Warboss in Mega armour with da lucky stikk. Depending on what army i face i put him together with a squad of bully boyz or lootas so they can move and shoot without snapping.

Bully boyz formation with trukks. So 3 trukks filled with 3x5 Meganobz that have fear and are Fearless.. Heavy heavy hitters but can die quickly to volume of fire and or the ridiculous amount of Rending, AP2 MC attacks out there.
GW realy needs to think their codex over and at least give them hte option to buy cybork body..

2 squads of 10 Boyz in Trukks. Makes good for 4 scoring units. I usually use these boyz to soak up overwatches that could kill meganobz or use them to camp objectives while their trukks go and try to get other objectives.

2 Squads of 10 lootaz. These guys remain the only solid choice in the codex IMO. Their saves suck, cover helps a bit, but as i said,... the amount of cover ignoring weapons out there is insane... so be careful!

Havent made a lot of success with this list yet but this list has brought me the best results to date.. 7 losses..2 draws and 1 win thus far... God we need a better codex....

@Warboss Grobnub

Painboys, painboys and painboys! No need to buy the overpriced cybork when you can give the entire squad a better FNP for a reasonable price.

Taking an Ork Horde with the Bullyboyz allows you to buy a painboy for each of the squads. Being fearless and WS5 they fare well enough without a Warboss. You lose the ability to waaagh, but since meganobz are SnP you won't be missing much.

Painboys are also a great way to bolster warbike squads. At T5 most weapons with Ignores Cover won't be able to deny you that save, and when Ignores Cover is not involved FNP provides an additional layer of saves that will keep your guys alive longer.

My warbiker mob has survived a paskisher and a full wyvern barrage with minimal losses, thanks to its embedded painboy. Trust me, it's worth every point!

The problem i have with painboyz...is that i mainly face...

Tau.. Massive missle spam. Str8 T4 instant death.. No fnp

Dark Eldar, lots of poisoned so volume mostly kill me but dark lances go straight through my armor AND FNP because of str8 T 4

Daemons.. Nurgle unclean ones tend to get iron hand a lot.... So again Insta kill and ap2

Chaos SM player usually has a lot of chaos bikers with a PF in them. Again no FNP and ap2 attacks.

Against Nids it might actually be nice

Feel no pain is awesome... but the amount of str8+ weapons out there makes is less good than intended..

I do run a painboy biker against some armies... but when i know it gets negated i focus my points elsewhere. My painboy Biker is solid though!

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
The problem i have with painboyz...is that i mainly face...

Tau.. Massive missle spam. Str8 T4 instant death.. No fnp

Dark Eldar, lots of poisoned so volume mostly kill me but dark lances go straight through my armor AND FNP because of str8 T 4

Daemons.. Nurgle unclean ones tend to get iron hand a lot.... So again Insta kill and ap2

Chaos SM player usually has a lot of chaos bikers with a PF in them. Again no FNP and ap2 attacks.

Against Nids it might actually be nice

Feel no pain is awesome... but the amount of str8+ weapons out there makes is less good than intended..

I do run a painboy biker against some armies... but when i know it gets negated i focus my points elsewhere. My painboy Biker is solid though!

No offense, but if you're talking about HYMP from Tau Broadsides you've either been playing it wrong or you're exaggerating. Tau HYMP and normal missile pods are only S7 AP4 so you would get FNP against them. Plus against Tau you normally go for as much target saturation as possible so they overkill on several small scale transports and units while the rest get to close the distance. If you're talking about seeker missiles...well given that they're one shot missiles that are only available on pricy platforms and in limited numbers, the fact that they're targeting boyz rather than larger-profile/threat targets means that you should be happy since losing 6 point boyz to a missile is a points ratio to your favour.

Dark Eldar are actually pretty straightforward for Orks. Poisoned doesn't mean much against mechanized Orks and even against Green Tide, the FNP mixed in with cover or a KFF heavily mitigates a lot of their wounds. I don't know where you got the idea that Dark lances are scary but they typically don't have enough rate of fire to take down the amount of transports Orks usually have in Mech lists and are glorified missile launchers against the majority of our vehicles, even battlewagons given how easy it is to get at our side armour which is only 12. Also if your boyz are being targeted by Dark Lances that is great, since they should be targeting vehicles not 6 point boys.

Complaining about Nurgle daemons seems to be the silliest excuse. Really? GUO? With Iron Arm? You know you can just avoid him right? 6" movement SNP means he can't even run. You could even just tarpit him with a unit and leave it as is, he doesn't have enough damage output to get through a mob of boyz without outside help.

Chaos Bikers with Powerfists? I really don't see how this is threatening to a mob of boyz who will likely drown the unit in a tide of attacks before the PF wielding aspiring champion even swings. At most he'd have 3-4 attacks on the charge depending what mark he has, how is he any scarier than our Nobz with PK? Especially those within our own biker units who are immune to instant death thanks to being T5 and having 2 wounds instead of 1 like the Aspiring Champion biker?

What kind of lists do you use? The threats you seem to be afraid of are pretty tame to be honest. If it were Eldar I would understand a bit more.

GUO are not really that bad, but nurgle DPs are super obnoxious. I fight a lot of them and I cringe any time I see an iron arm manifested.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
I feel this thread is very similar to an Ork council. People bashing eachother (albeit intellectually) over who's mobs are the shootiest and killiest. At the end of this council each warboss will go off and run with their favorite build anyway as we branch off, un-united across the galaxy.

For me, I mostly agree with the rankings of the units. But I think the Ork codex has some good internal balance, where certain units begin to excel and be more effective when taken with other specific units.

So it's hard to rate a unit on it's own effectively in the Ork codex, where synergy is one of their strongest assets.

Well said.

Each army and play style works different. Something that's sucks in one army might be great in another.


I have been using a weird boy with tank bustas recently. Wow a 18 " S10 AP2 tank hunter beam is awesome =)

That sounds like a really fearsome combo. Most of the Weirdboy spells sync well with the Bustas. Obviously the Killbolt is amazing, but Frazzle can be OK for anti-MEQ with Bustas, Warpath can help when the Bustas are fighting a Monster that needs killing, Da Jump can really scare things (avoiding Knight's shields), if you're close enough, Power Vomit on an open topped vehicle is great (especially with Tank Hunter). The benefit of the Weirdboy is even if you get a power that isn't good when he's put with Bustas, he can be put somewhere else to use it. The only really bad power I'd say would be 'eadbanger, because it isn't too good when most armies are so tough.

pickled_heretic wrote:
GUO are not really that bad, but nurgle DPs are super obnoxious. I fight a lot of them and I cringe any time I see an iron arm manifested.

What do you do to deal with a nurgle DP flying around getting a 2+ cover save from ruins and such, with iron arm and that ability that kills a bunch of dudes on a toughness test?

A couple dozen games after the this afterthought they call a codex dropped, I seldom play 40k anymore, but i still do pickup games every now and then in between the better games. I've had to face one of these bad boys but didn't really know what to do, so I tried tarpitting it. He killed ten boys in one turn though, so that's really not a good answer to it. Can't kite it, can't shoot it, can't chop it, and can't tarpit it. I'm at a loss.


And to add to the topic, i agree with the OP's general assessments of each unit, though i do think some units with worse ratings have a couple ways to play them with unique synergies that would give them a better rating

DP are insta-killed with any pk boss. Yep, iron arm makes them harder but you can still tarpit them. If it's a C: Daemon dp, it's not that killy and tarpittable. If it's CSM dp, it has only 33% of getting iron arm. Also, they cost A LOT. Yep, they're pretty mobile and killy but the thing is most orks are so cheap - dp struggle to make their points back.

pickled_heretic wrote:
I know how good everyone thinks lobbas, kmks and traktor kannons are. The dark horse of the mek gun menagerie is definitely the bubblechucka. Against most infantry, rolling a 3-6 is pretty good. Sometimes even a 1 or 2 is ok depending on what you shoot at. against TEQ, wounding on 6's but ignoring armor will quickly pay for your cost of the kannons.

I wouldn't rate them "green" but they fill a role in the mek gun toolbox that none of the other mek guns do as well. You might struggle to find a use for them if you already deal with infantry effectively but with the diversity of formations in 7th you can almost certainly find a place for them if your list otherwise lacks effective anti-infantry or your meta is extremely heavy on ground pounders (as mine is).

Was just looking at the mek guns in detail for the first time earlier today, and I have to agree that the bubblechukka seems like a pretty good option. They're your solid, reliable (yes reliable) infantry smashers. Pie plates give them good accuracy for orks, and the best between the guns against most infantry targets. If you roll seperately for each weapons S/AP (which looking at their rules I believe you do, will be pissed if you don't) then between all the rolls you make your likely to get that one number that will deal massive damage, along with either mass wounds w/ crap AP or a handful of AP1/2 wounds to put the pain on whatever it is your shooting at.

Honestly still looks pretty hard to pass up on kustom mega kannons (plasma cannons for orks??) or our old favourites kannons and lobbas which are more numerous and I believe cheaper than they used to be

 koooaei wrote:
DP are insta-killed with any pk boss. Yep, iron arm makes them harder but you can still tarpit them. If it's a C: Daemon dp, it's not that killy and tarpittable. If it's CSM dp, it has only 33% of getting iron arm. Also, they cost A LOT. Yep, they're pretty mobile and killy but the thing is most orks are so cheap - dp struggle to make their points back.

It's the DPs choice if he gets into melee and what it is with since he is moving 12". It's also not so easy to tarpit them. they deal around 4 wounds in assault which isn't horrific but you are also losing about 2 from mob rule. They are also challenging every turn so you are either hemorrhaging characters or not swinging with them. Once you fall below 10 models in the squad you have a real risk of getting cut down, which is going to happen in 1 game turn if you brought 20 boys (which is a pretty common number for me). The big problem is still iron arm which makes regular boys unable to kill them and makes all of their attacks ID against anything but a warboss.

On the flip side they can be safely ignored if they are swooping. They can't really do much to you in the air, but then again they can't really be killed either.

For mek guns I like 2 kannons and a traktor kannon + ammo runt. Nice 69 points unit. If they don't have flyers or skimmers the traktor up front to die first. And vs flyers you can at least snap fire the kannons.

Anyone have success with buggies? When I try to write up a list I'm starting with maxed mek guns followed by max buggies and its hard to justify not doing this unless your able to spam CAD or play unbound for many single deffkoptas

25pts for fast outflanking TL big shootas... I found that very reliable on solo koptas last edition and unlike koptas they don't care about morale so you can spam them.

I'd never bother with the trakk upgrade though - get them stranded deliberately so they become seperate squads and can split their fire! Who says Orks cannot into shenanigans?

You know...I've been trying to decide myself. I'm kinda thinking of taking Buggies over the Koptas because of the morale thing. Leaving them stranded or blown up also provides extra cover for the advancing mobs. As for the traks, well crashing through ruins is a dangerous terrain test. Up to you.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Anyone have success with buggies? When I try to write up a list I'm starting with maxed mek guns followed by max buggies and its hard to justify not doing this unless your able to spam CAD or play unbound for many single deffkoptas

25pts for fast outflanking TL big shootas... I found that very reliable on solo koptas last edition and unlike koptas they don't care about morale so you can spam them.

I'd never bother with the trakk upgrade though - get them stranded deliberately so they become seperate squads and can split their fire! Who says Orks cannot into shenanigans?

I'd get at least one buggy in a squadron as a trakk. More reliably going into dt without immobilizing yourself to claim an objective or cover - in case it's the closest buggy to the enemy - is well worth 5 pt imo.

 koooaei wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Anyone have success with buggies? When I try to write up a list I'm starting with maxed mek guns followed by max buggies and its hard to justify not doing this unless your able to spam CAD or play unbound for many single deffkoptas

25pts for fast outflanking TL big shootas... I found that very reliable on solo koptas last edition and unlike koptas they don't care about morale so you can spam them.

I'd never bother with the trakk upgrade though - get them stranded deliberately so they become seperate squads and can split their fire! Who says Orks cannot into shenanigans?

I'd get at least one buggy in a squadron as a trakk. More reliably going into dt without immobilizing yourself to claim an objective or cover - in case it's the closest buggy to the enemy - is well worth 5 pt imo.

I really like the idea of having a Big Mek with a KFF (or Mega KFF) in with buggies for the 5+ invulnerable. Unfortunately, he's really easy to take out so he needs to be joined up (which he can't do to Buggies). This makes deffkoptas really useful, and unfortunately, superiorish to buggies :(

Honestly I've revamped my play style with Orks in that my group only plays Malestrom. I no longer worry about claiming the opponents objectives. I still use DeffKoptas because they're so cheap and versitile but being able to hold my 3 which I put as close to each other as possible 12" and either defend against alpha strike or out shoot campers.

It's actaully a great feeling of liberty that I dont have to worry about Ld and Ork vehicles getting blown apart. There's still plenty of variety and fun in games but it's way more relaxing.

Unbound: MSU deffkopta units of 1 can't be equalled for what they do by almost any unit in the game. Buggies can tank shock though. Against non-fearless units, they got to fail sometimes

 PipeAlley wrote:
Honestly I've revamped my play style with Orks in that my group only plays Malestrom. I no longer worry about claiming the opponents objectives. I still use DeffKoptas because they're so cheap and versitile but being able to hold my 3 which I put as close to each other as possible 12" and either defend against alpha strike or out shoot campers.

It's actaully a great feeling of liberty that I dont have to worry about Ld and Ork vehicles getting blown apart. There's still plenty of variety and fun in games but it's way more relaxing.

Unbound: MSU deffkopta units of 1 can't be equalled for what they do by almost any unit in the game. Buggies can tank shock though. Against non-fearless units, they got to fail sometimes

Can't tank shock as they're not tanks.

Doesn't reinfoced ram allow them? I might be getting my editions mixed up. Codex and rule book is at home.

Also, having Tank in profile adds 1 to strength when ramming so I'd assume non tanks can shock? I'll look it up tonight.

I recently played in an event with some competitive players. My list managed 5 out of 12 and I won best xenos player. Below is my list. 1500ish.

HQ
Zhadsnark
Pain boy on bike
Big mek on bike with KFF and DLS

Troops
Ard' boyz in a trukk. Nob BP and PK. Trukk had ram.
Biker boyz 6 with Nob PK and BP

Elites
Mek junka with RAM and 'ard plating
8 tankbusters

Fast-attack
5x Deffkoptas TL rokket
Dakka jet

Heavy Support
10x lootas
Looted wagon with Killkannon big shoota

Fortifaction
Quad Icurs Lascannon Vengeance Weapon Battery.

The force has two scout-able elements and tankbusters for some first turn bonus points. Zhadsnark caught a lot of players off guard when I used him to scout, and then tank shock with him. Force a couple units off the table when I did that. Vengeance weapon battery was in the list because of points and it gave me a nice anti-air unit that could intercept with. In the 4 rounds I played, it only mattered 2 twice. So when I jump the list up to an 1850 mark, its coming out to make run for more stuff.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Doesn't reinfoced ram allow them? I might be getting my editions mixed up. Codex and rule book is at home.

Also, having Tank in profile adds 1 to strength when ramming so I'd assume non tanks can shock? I'll look it up tonight.

Buggies don't have rams so they can't tank shock.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd get at least one buggy in a squadron as a trakk. More reliably going into dt without immobilizing yourself to claim an objective or cover - in case it's the closest buggy to the enemy - is well worth 5 pt imo.

Hadn't thought of that, I'm very much still in the 6th edition "only troops score" mindset.

Sketchyfk wrote:
I really like the idea of having a Big Mek with a KFF (or Mega KFF) in with buggies for the 5+ invulnerable. Unfortunately, he's really easy to take out so he needs to be joined up (which he can't do to Buggies). This makes deffkoptas really useful, and unfortunately, superiorish to buggies :(

 PipeAlley wrote:
Doesn't reinfoced ram allow them? I might be getting my editions mixed up. Codex and rule book is at home.

Also, having Tank in profile adds 1 to strength when ramming so I'd assume non tanks can shock? I'll look it up tonight.

Tracks =/= Ram

And they're not tanks to get it by default.
So, buggies can't tankshock, unfortunately.

Ah, I only use Trukks and BW's to ram.

Anybody have thoughts on the Lifta Dropa Wagon as a competitive unit?

It'll average 7-8 str on their roll. Being AP1 means it gives a +2 to the roll on the penetration table. But aside from that, that's it. I'm kinda surprised it didn't get armourbane. You need a weapon that is at least str8 to glance an armour of 14.

It used to be cool, but now since its one shot on BS2 it really doesn't matter how much damage it can do cuz it will never hit

Whoops sorry, I was thinking the Mig Mek Gun, Smasha Cannon that lifts and drops vehicles to smash them. I'm guessing this wagon fingy is from Forge World? Probably similar stats but I have no idea.

Would 2 Greentides be too much for a 2k list? each with painboy and a few KFF? sounds like an annoying list to play

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Would 2 Greentides be too much for a 2k list? each with painboy and a few KFF? sounds like an annoying list to play

I think it be better to go with1 green tide, just make it bigger =)

The tide works best with a few support units. Mek gutz, lootas, tank bustas etc...

Don't skimp out on putting Nobz with PKs and putting a PK on the Warboss. Don't want a melee Dreadnaught tieing up the entire mob turn after turn.

So, green tide, you guys find the KFF worth it? Its only models within 6" but you can put him pretty far in from the front and protect a huge blob of Orks. On the other hand, I can imagine this mob will take the worst of its casualties from barrage pie plates, which means a lot of the time the 5++ will be ignored.

Anyone try Grotsnik (fearless, rage iirc) or any other HQ or characters for it? I'm very seriously considering trying one out, even if I have to paint another hundred Orks after selling most of the first ones...

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Whoops sorry, I was thinking the Mig Mek Gun, Smasha Cannon that lifts and drops vehicles to smash them. I'm guessing this wagon fingy is from Forge World? Probably similar stats but I have no idea.

Just forget the lifta droppa exists. Honestly its depressing how badly they ruined it, it went from fun and strong to total garbage

I dunno how good the Smasha gun is, but I know theres a tendency for people to write off guns with random attributes which in the case of these guns is a bit hasty. If you roll for five different gun strengths it averages out pretty nicely I reckon.

Don't know. KFF is pretty expensive. You still need a DLS, so a mek with a killsaw, kff and dls could do. It's not that bad and it migh help you against being pushed back too much but it's very easy to avoid and won't help all that often.

Having never run a green tide but regularly running full Boyz mobs is that everyone without a special role is just extra wounds. Think of the green tide like one big organism with 10-30 Rokkits and 10 to 30 Nobz. Everything else is just wounds.

The greatest force multiplier for Orks is DLS and Bike PainBoy.

I'd argue that a DLS Biker boss is better than a KFF BM simply because his is T6 and cannot be ID by Str 10 blasts. Also, he can take FNP against Str 10 in both shooting and Assault.

TL, DR: take a DLS BikerBoss and PainBiker, stick them in the way back and let all the Boyz and PK Nobz do all the actuall work! Sluggas up front and shootas in back.

Yeah I'm not too sure of the Green Tide. Seems fine on paper but it's a lot in one unit. They have to shoot and charge the same target although with it's size I suppose it's gonna be one big multi charge attack. A deep striking dreadnaught can turn the whole entire mob around and tie it up. I think there was a time when the green tide was one unit with only one nob. Rofl this musta been a joke. Looking at the new W!G supplement and it's 10 Boyz units with their nobs if you wish (I would) that then form to make one unit when deployed. At least this way there are more Klaws in use. Imagine getting stuck in a melee from the opponant with multuple units the boyz themselves can't scratch and only on PK...gotta play out each and every turn for that one PK to kill the targets while the boyz can't do squat or even move.
Using the other detachments you can send your 8-9 squads of boyz to different objectives and targets and mess with your opponent's target priorities. Toss in some toyz too. Almost all unit selections for Orks have had their point cost reduced. Vehicle rokkit upgrades became free (or in the case of no weapon on base model, the rokkit is same price as big shoota), vehicle squadrons can field more models and with the points saved from so much getting cheaper it's easier to fill. Or now that all boyz in the troops selection can be given Ard Armour as an upgrade selection (choppa boyz or shoota boyz) instead of just one unit selection in the old books you can spend the bunch of saved money on some tougher squads that can mitigate their own trukk exploding. Basically in 7th edition the hidden buff Orks got is that almost across the board they got cheaper. In the past it was always boyz before toys to try and squeeze the effectiveness of numbers into a limited amount of points and ultimately sacrificing toys that can help support your mob as they move up. I'm still into bringing big green blobs but now I can bring some more toys to support them or hard counters without having to struggle internally with an old mentality to just keep throwing every single point I can into Str3 AP- atks. I'm working on an army atm that is both Goffs and Death Skullz. Naturally with Goffs in town I will be having lots of boyz because lots of boyz is still key also where my ard boyz would be found. My Death Skullz will have maybe half the numbers in models but far more support toyz. I hope my theory is correct about how to spend the saved points as Boyz with a bit of Toyz.

What are people's thoughts on a Zhadsnark bike list? Biker Deathstar supported by smaller biker squads.

Why does everyone always take min sized biker units?

I understand moral is sometimes a problem but the power of a 15man biker unit is awesome. 45 TL shots followed by HoW followed by 60 attacks (including PK nob).

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

pickled_heretic wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And weird boy have a lot of witch fires. And even with their primaris you at least get a S6 shot.

Alo da jump on tank bustas scares the crap out of vehicles.

It's a really cool idea. I am thinking about incorporating it into a list for a local tournament I might be participating in. The only problem I have with it is tankbustas like to ride in boxes and weirdboys like to footslog.

you can shoot Witch fire powers out of vehicles. If you roll da jump, they can disembark then jump. And since you roll powers before you deploy, you can decide where you want the weirdboy.

Did you ever give this a try? I've thought about it some myself. I mean, in the basic Ork Codex we are supplied with a special Detachment type that we can take two of to get 6 HQ choices. Granted, we would have to take 6 troop choices, troops that don't have obj secured. My first thought was that small hope that we could have enough Warpheads running around to have a small statistical chance of denying Inivisibility (twice). Of course, the real value in numerous Warpheads is that Beam weapon can hit invisibile targets anyways if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, you'd also want to stick them with Tankbustas, if Tank Hunter is going to confer, I still want to read up on that. But a delivery system is what boggles me. Much like Tankbustas, you want to get the weirdboyz to 24 inches quickly. The BW Scout formation comes to mind, but it's a lot of points with the six troop requirement you'd need to have 6 HQ slots, along with trying to get Tankbustas for Warpheads to be with.

 Dakkamite wrote:
It used to be cool, but now since its one shot on BS2 it really doesn't matter how much damage it can do cuz it will never hit

Not really true. The wagon still has a good chance of smashing a vehicle every turn. 33% chance. Same with all ork shooting. Personally, the last time I fielded mine, it killed or damaged something every turn.


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 Waaagh 18 wrote:
What are people's thoughts on a Zhadsnark bike list? Biker Deathstar supported by smaller biker squads.

Take a look at my list on previous page. I use him and he is pretty awesome.

 Rismonite wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

pickled_heretic wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And weird boy have a lot of witch fires. And even with their primaris you at least get a S6 shot.

Alo da jump on tank bustas scares the crap out of vehicles.

It's a really cool idea. I am thinking about incorporating it into a list for a local tournament I might be participating in. The only problem I have with it is tankbustas like to ride in boxes and weirdboys like to footslog.

you can shoot Witch fire powers out of vehicles. If you roll da jump, they can disembark then jump. And since you roll powers before you deploy, you can decide where you want the weirdboy.

Did you ever give this a try? I've thought about it some myself. I mean, in the basic Ork Codex we are supplied with a special Detachment type that we can take two of to get 6 HQ choices. Granted, we would have to take 6 troop choices, troops that don't have obj secured. My first thought was that small hope that we could have enough Warpheads running around to have a small statistical chance of denying Inivisibility (twice). Of course, the real value in numerous Warpheads is that Beam weapon can hit invisibile targets anyways if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, you'd also want to stick them with Tankbustas, if Tank Hunter is going to confer, I still want to read up on that. But a delivery system is what boggles me. Much like Tankbustas, you want to get the weirdboyz to 24 inches quickly. The BW Scout formation comes to mind, but it's a lot of points with the six troop requirement you'd need to have 6 HQ slots, along with trying to get Tankbustas for Warpheads to be with.

i have tried the weird boy + tank bustas a couple games now. Havnt got da jump yet , but have got kill bolt twice. My last game was vs Necrons and his only vehicle was 1 walker, but the kill bolt did one shot it. I run him with 9 bustas in a gun wagon. It comes down to his powers and how my opponent sets up to decide where I put the weird boy.

My army is usually an Ork horde detatchment and a CAD. So i can have 5 HQS , just have to have 5 troops. Which I run 3 boyz mobs and 2 gretchin mobs. All the orks go into the horde detatchment and the grotz into the cad.

Sooo.... How do we kill new Eldar?

Lots of lobbas, pray to get 1-st turn and that jetbikes fail a lot of ld tests. Boyz spread out in max coherency to not get fried too hard by d-flamers. MSU koptas to fly around distracting and annoying them and eating from d-scythes.

Wait some time, it works too. Starting from 6-th i've seen a significant drop of eldar players skill cause they no longer needed to think that hard to win games. Gona be even worse now cause realistically, you need to be a bit above potato IQ to play eldar effectively.

How about a knight ally? Would it work nicely together with our army? (not asking specifically about panzee jetbikes here)

Dakkamite, do not pay 160 points for Grotsnik. The Big Boss Pole from the Waaaaagghhh Gazkull supplement gives you Fearless, and a Painboy from a CAD (same place you'd get Grotsnik) is only 50pts. That's 70pts to do what Grotsnik does for the mob at less then half his price of 160pts.

Also, he doesn't give Rage, he gives Rampage. Which in this instance is useless, because no one will ever have more models in a combat with your green tide than you. If it was rage, you could have an argument, but it's Rampage.

Yeah if you ever field Grotsnik instead of a regular painboy, don't do it for the Green Tide. Stick Grotsnik with Nobz unit, they are a low numbered unit needing more survivability and rampage will come into effect with them far more often. If you want to go fluffy, Ghazzy keeps Grotsnik heavily guarded with meganobz from his own Goff clan. He caught Grotsnik's own nobz stealing The Dok's stuff (Grotsnik is a Deathskull aka the lootiest lootas).

Actually, Grotsnik has some stuff going on for him.

Firstly, he has a pk and 4 ws5 (ws6 with DLS) attacks or +2 poisoned attacks and +1 WS over a painboss. Secondly, he's t5 and 4+, so that much harder to snipe out than a regular painboss.

So, that's not just 20 pt for fearless. It's also 25+ pt for a pk at the very least.

Oh I agree and he'll play a very important role for me in various units. But I was referring to the fellas idea of putting Grotsnik in the Green Tide formation. He's a 160 pt beast, there are cheaper ways to get fnp and fearless on the Green Tide. Nob squads tend to be outnumbered most of the time and I feel Grotsnik shines better with them as the rampage will come into play more often. Nobs also don't go over 10 units so one of the Mob Rule prereqs can't be fulfilled, Fearless negates that for them.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Oh I agree and he'll play a very important role for me in various units. But I was referring to the fellas idea of putting Grotsnik in the Green Tide formation. He's a 160 pt beast, there are cheaper ways to get fnp and fearless on the Green Tide. Nob squads tend to be outnumbered most of the time and I feel Grotsnik shines better with them as the rampage will come into play more often. Nobs also don't go over 10 units so one of the Mob Rule prereqs can't be fulfilled, Fearless negates that for them.

Well, i was referring to Grotsnik vs Painboss in a green tide.

He's not that much more expensive when you consider that he can replace both a painboss and one of pk nobz.

So, that'd be 111 pt for a painboss, pk nob and DLS. He also has an extra PK attack and +1 WS which can easilly cost another 15-20 pt in my book. That'd be ~130 pt. And 30 go for much better durability. Nothing worse loosing a painboss to a basilisk round turn one for a Greentide. Rampage is just there as a free super situational buff. But it might actually come into play. For example, vs new eldar as they can easilly kill half the greentide in one turn, so, by the time you reach them - if you do at all - you'd probably need that rampage when you multicharge everything.

True he is hands down more resilient then a painboy and he becomes point efficient if he also replaces the price of a Nob (can't deny how expensive they can get). It's really cool he has a PK which is why I want to run him with a unit that gets up close. Of course the Green Tide will get close too. It's definitely worth trying. There are situational moments where I like to be able to serperate my warboss as he goes for another model while unit he was with deals with a softer target and maybe even join another unit afterwards. Unfortunately Grotsnik doesn't do that, he's stuck in till the unit he's with dies and then he can join another. Deploying him takes more forethought, I find. When I get a chance to run him I'll see how often he might survive his unit getting wiped out and if he can make it to another unit getting chipped apart in time to buff them. If he just keeps dieing with the unit he was originally with then I'd feel less worried of having him tied to a Green Tide.

Painboy 50pts, nob upgrade 10pts, power klaw 25pts, big boss pole 20 pts, 4pts heavy armor, so at best 109 pts. At best you're paying 45 points for a character you don't want anywhere near a combat, unlike your nob. And why are you bringing da lukky stikk into this? He can't buy it... He doesn't convey its bonus... So... Are we talking about adding another warboss? Then Grotsnik becomes an even larger problem because points become an even larger issue which you need to minimize...i don't follow your logic. He's worth his points in a manz missile not in a green tide.

Is the Green Tide susceptible to Fear? Or is it not really a concern due to the sheer number of attacks and that there really isn't much that wants to get into combat with so many orks?

Initially, yes they are susceptible to fear, their numbers don't confer fearless like they used to in the old days....well not in the same manner anyways. A failed morale test leads to another random table which if properly prepped for and mitigated will result in the unit staying in the fight. A fearless unit can ignore this all together and there is a way or two to do this. The Green Tide is in the W!G supplement and use W!G warlord rules and Orkimedes Gubbinz not the Ork Codex stuff. No lucky roll for a Prophet of the Waaagh that gives fearless if the Warlord is a Warboss so only Ghazzy has this and can't do the stampede if made the Warlod and then slipped into this unit unbound. Grotsnik gives a constant fearless but also would need to be added unbound but would be more effective then Ghazzy. This leaves Orkimedes Big Boss Pole for 20 points on your Warboss in the Green Tide to give a constant fearless to the entire unit.

I assume most people would figure a way to get that Big Boss Pole in their Tide, then.

Yes. And this is if you don't want to swing at the 4-6 attacks you'd be dealing to your 100+ wounds worth of models. Otherwise, when running a W!G supplement formation you're mob rule table results change to d3+3 instead of a d6 wounds. And you cannot fail the mob rule roll with its bonus on the table.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
What are people's thoughts on a Zhadsnark bike list? Biker Deathstar supported by smaller biker squads.

I run this list quite regularly, this list seems like the biggest powerbuild for Orks out there...
I still lose 9.9/10 times...

Our army just lacks all those fancy special rules all the other armies have... And we lack invul saves so our greatest hitters still die to decent weapons and ignore cover shizzle (TF-Cannon, marker drones, Serpent shield etc etc)

I have hopelessly, hilariously tried numerous highly competitive lists and played like a boss... and still lost.

My most recent los was against an Eldar/Raven guard army. Semi competitive list.... at the last turn he still had over 900 points on the table while i only had 138 left... And that was the Orks at their best.. My opponent was very, very scared... until turn 4 where my squad were thinned out so damn much that all i did was take morale checks and watch my units run and race to my table edge...

I seriously wish the worst on those who broke the already not so great old Ork codex.....

The main ork weakness is leadership. Lately I feel almost forced to take the Bullyboyz with 3 Painboys from an Ork Horde detachment. Grots for scoring, Mek guns to cover the advance. Low model count, Fearless, WS5 2+ armour nobs with FNP are scary. Battlewagons to solve the mobility problem. If you survive until Turn 2 and IF you don't face lots of AP 2 S8+ weapons the Meganobz will kill everything. But if you play agains Eldar... you can still do some damage befor going down eventualy

FratHammer wrote:
Painboy 50pts, nob upgrade 10pts, power klaw 25pts, big boss pole 20 pts, 4pts heavy armor, so at best 109 pts. At best you're paying 45 points for a character you don't want anywhere near a combat, unlike your nob. And why are you bringing da lukky stikk into this? He can't buy it... He doesn't convey its bonus... So... Are we talking about adding another warboss? Then Grotsnik becomes an even larger problem because points become an even larger issue which you need to minimize...i don't follow your logic. He's worth his points in a manz missile not in a green tide.

He has 1 more attacks and 1 higher WS, so it's something extra.

Besides, he's not gona get killed by a basilisk or a wivern in one go.

Wanted to ask what you guys think the 'big competative' ork lists are?

basically, what are going to be the power houses to win torny games and keep up with those pointy eared gitz

to get us started, some small suggestions....

Green tide
( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635005.page )

All walker list
( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638474.page )

warboss spam delivery
( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646222.page )


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also, personally think that grots should be yellow, and gazzy should be blue or AT LEAST yellow.

grots yellow because they CAN eb useful to hang onto objectives for practically no points. they are versatile and have a use in most tournament settings. Even if that means operating fortifications (which is great as they have protection and a big gun at the best ork ballistic skill available while being half the point of boyz)

think gazzy should be blue or at least yellow because, reading the reasons you have given for him being red, though he may be a little too many points compared to a standard warboss, he still isnt TERRIBLE. Sure, compared to warboss he isnt AMAZING, btu he isnt bad. If he were 50 points cheaper he would be a lot better, but for his points, I don't think he is red.

Walker lists aren't competitive. They just aren't fast enough to get there before they are killed in the heavy AT meta.

They could perhaps be competative if you bring enough of them or in lower point games.

I notice the Waaagh! Ghazghkull Dreadmob can fit into a 1500 point game quite easily (but its the entire army of itself).


But ideally the Green Tide and Dreadmobs both rely on your opponent not bringing enough to counter you ideally.

If someone is expecting them then they both have the potential to fall apart pretty easily.

I played a Green tide over the weekend and it was fun and funny at the same time. I had a weird boy, Mad Grotsnik , and a warboss in the tide. Warboss had the lucky stick. Weird boy knew Da jump and warpath. My opponent did not know what I was bring, but he showed up with guard and had a basilis and manticore. Bad news for the tide. So I took a risk and on turn one jumped the tide within 3 inchs of his front line. Made it really hard on him because we were playing vanguard strike. Game was literally a blood bath. My the end of the last turn. All I had left was Mad Grotsnik. My opponent had nothing. I got rampage off in the last two turns of the game.

fear is a big deal against green tide and it's worth at least 20 points to get fearless.

FNP is also mandatory.

Grotsnik is the ultimate purchase for a battle of the green tides. The extra attacks are absolutely ridiculous. As soon as your tide starts losing, you get a +2a bonus per boy on average that just shreds the enemy. On the other hand, he is a lot of points and you won't get anything out of him in most circumstances.

pickled_heretic wrote:
fear is a big deal against green tide and it's worth at least 20 points to get fearless.

FNP is also mandatory.

Grotsnik is the ultimate purchase for a battle of the green tides. The extra attacks are absolutely ridiculous. As soon as your tide starts losing, you get a +2a bonus per boy on average that just shreds the enemy. On the other hand, he is a lot of points and you won't get anything out of him in most circumstances.

Also with me casting warpath every turn on them it made all the boyz base 3 instead of 2s.

personally i give the warboss a big boss pole and then purchase another warboss with lucky stick so he can get into combat while the main warboss stays at the back to stay out of challenge range. i use a painboy and save some points personally instead of grotsnick

 Glitcha wrote:
I played a Green tide over the weekend and it was fun and funny at the same time. I had a weird boy, Mad Grotsnik , and a warboss in the tide. Warboss had the lucky stick. Weird boy knew Da jump and warpath. My opponent did not know what I was bring, but he showed up with guard and had a basilis and manticore. Bad news for the tide. So I took a risk and on turn one jumped the tide within 3 inchs of his front line. Made it really hard on him because we were playing vanguard strike. Game was literally a blood bath. My the end of the last turn. All I had left was Mad Grotsnik. My opponent had nothing. I got rampage off in the last two turns of the game.

A few things here: Warboss should not have the Lucky Stick. Not unless you took a Detachment from the regular Ork Codex, took a Warboss, and stuck him into the Tide with the other Warboss.

The required Warboss for the Green Tide can only use Relics from the W!G book.

Second, when you said you DS the Tide 3'' away, did you scatter 3'' away and then had to start putting Boyz down? Because if so, you'd have likely misshaped.

Not trying to be a grump, but just letting you know there is and may have been another mistake or two :p Just so you're aware.

Melevolence wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I played a Green tide over the weekend and it was fun and funny at the same time. I had a weird boy, Mad Grotsnik , and a warboss in the tide. Warboss had the lucky stick. Weird boy knew Da jump and warpath. My opponent did not know what I was bring, but he showed up with guard and had a basilis and manticore. Bad news for the tide. So I took a risk and on turn one jumped the tide within 3 inchs of his front line. Made it really hard on him because we were playing vanguard strike. Game was literally a blood bath. My the end of the last turn. All I had left was Mad Grotsnik. My opponent had nothing. I got rampage off in the last two turns of the game.

A few things here: Warboss should not have the Lucky Stick. Not unless you took a Detachment from the regular Ork Codex, took a Warboss, and stuck him into the Tide with the other Warboss.

The required Warboss for the Green Tide can only use Relics from the W!G book.

Second, when you said you DS the Tide 3'' away, did you scatter 3'' away and then had to start putting Boyz down? Because if so, you'd have likely misshaped.

Not trying to be a grump, but just letting you know there is and may have been another mistake or two :p Just so you're aware.

I'll give you the lucky stick one. That would have been my fault. But yeah the tide had scattered and after placing all the boyz there was just a 3" gap between my tide and his front line.

Yeah, not sure how that worked in your game, but I have generally decided that jumping a green tide is what to do when you want to lose on your turn instead of theirs. There's no possible way to place the unit out of deep strike on most tables.

pickled_heretic wrote:
Yeah, not sure how that worked in your game, but I have generally decided that jumping a green tide is what to do when you want to lose on your turn instead of theirs. There's no possible way to place the unit out of deep strike on most tables.

Well it was either try and take a lot of dangerous terrain test or watch his tanks blow up the tide is it tries to make a run for it across the table. Go big or go home, I guess, lol.


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I've been preparing this list for a event.

Great Waagh Detachment

HQ
Big mek with MFF

Mek

Buzzgob

Troops
'ard boyz w/nob BP PK in a Trukk with ramx2
Shoota boyz in a trukk with ram

Elites
MANz Missile

Fast-Attack
3 Deffkopta
Dakkajet

Heavy Support
Deff dread 1 big shoota 1 rokket
Deff dread 2 mega blasters

LoW
Buzzgob's Big Mek Stompa

Question: I thought of this earlier and I was wondering if anybody has tried a bikerboss deathstar?

The idea would be as follows: Two Ork horde detachments with 3 HQ slots each, take 5 warbosses on bikes with power klaws, one painboy on a bike, sprinkle in DLS and the blitzbike, then have them all join a min size unit of regular bikers. Take a couple of extra min size units of bikers for them to join when their meat shields get killed, since they're all ICs and can all join the same unit. Give the warlord a finkin' cap to try to outflank them for extra fun times. Let the biker nob eat challenges to keep the bosses swinging.

They're T6 so they can't be doubled out, 4+, FNP, they can jink, and get 3+ cover if they turboboost. In combat, they've got 25 attacks at WS6 S10 ap2, and if you give them attack squigs because why not at this point they can each reroll a miss. Shooting they've still got 18 shots S5 TL, and the blitzbike can be a nasty surprise for MEQs as well.

Only downside is it's like 700 points, but on paper anyway it sounds pretty 'ard to me. Has anyone tried this, or is there some reason that it's just a terrible idea and I should feel bad that I'm not seeing, besides the semi-obscene points cost?

office_waaagh seems like a wonderful name.. I was pleased.. Thanks.

 office_waaagh wrote:
Question: I thought of this earlier and I was wondering if anybody has tried a bikerboss deathstar?

The idea would be as follows: Two Ork horde detachments with 3 HQ slots each, take 5 warbosses on bikes with power klaws, one painboy on a bike, sprinkle in DLS and the blitzbike, then have them all join a min size unit of regular bikers. Take a couple of extra min size units of bikers for them to join when their meat shields get killed, since they're all ICs and can all join the same unit. Give the warlord a finkin' cap to try to outflank them for extra fun times. Let the biker nob eat challenges to keep the bosses swinging.

They're T6 so they can't be doubled out, 4+, FNP, they can jink, and get 3+ cover if they turboboost. In combat, they've got 25 attacks at WS6 S10 ap2, and if you give them attack squigs because why not at this point they can each reroll a miss. Shooting they've still got 18 shots S5 TL, and the blitzbike can be a nasty surprise for MEQs as well.

Only downside is it's like 700 points, but on paper anyway it sounds pretty 'ard to me. Has anyone tried this, or is there some reason that it's just a terrible idea and I should feel bad that I'm not seeing, besides the semi-obscene points cost?

I've not ran 5 warboss, but i have ran two. Warboss on the blitz bike and Zhadsnark. Warboss on the bike had DLS. Then a pain boy on a bike and a big mek on a bike. Big mek had KFF and a killsaw. Big mek is mainly their to provide an invu from shooting attacks that have ignore cover and ap4. Plus could break off from the mainly unit to go snag a late objective. You could do the same with the 5 warbosses. Keep them together and then when it comes down to last turn, split the squad up and go grab objectives. Going 2nd would really in that instant.

 Glitcha wrote:

 office_waaagh wrote:
Question: I thought of this earlier and I was wondering if anybody has tried a bikerboss deathstar?

The idea would be as follows: Two Ork horde detachments with 3 HQ slots each, take 5 warbosses on bikes with power klaws, one painboy on a bike, sprinkle in DLS and the blitzbike, then have them all join a min size unit of regular bikers. Take a couple of extra min size units of bikers for them to join when their meat shields get killed, since they're all ICs and can all join the same unit. Give the warlord a finkin' cap to try to outflank them for extra fun times. Let the biker nob eat challenges to keep the bosses swinging.

They're T6 so they can't be doubled out, 4+, FNP, they can jink, and get 3+ cover if they turboboost. In combat, they've got 25 attacks at WS6 S10 ap2, and if you give them attack squigs because why not at this point they can each reroll a miss. Shooting they've still got 18 shots S5 TL, and the blitzbike can be a nasty surprise for MEQs as well.

Only downside is it's like 700 points, but on paper anyway it sounds pretty 'ard to me. Has anyone tried this, or is there some reason that it's just a terrible idea and I should feel bad that I'm not seeing, besides the semi-obscene points cost?

I've not ran 5 warboss, but i have ran two. Warboss on the blitz bike and Zhadsnark. Warboss on the bike had DLS. Then a pain boy on a bike and a big mek on a bike. Big mek had KFF and a killsaw. Big mek is mainly their to provide an invu from shooting attacks that have ignore cover and ap4. Plus could break off from the mainly unit to go snag a late objective. You could do the same with the 5 warbosses. Keep them together and then when it comes down to last turn, split the squad up and go grab objectives. Going 2nd would really in that instant.

I have a list with 7 min, 2 PK and 5 BC. The reason for 7 is 5 regular Bikerz with PK Nob, PainBoy on Bike, and KFF Killsaw on Bike. You start out with average T6 and lose all the regular Bikerz first. Cheap expendable wounds.

When 7th first came out I wanted 10 Warbosses with 10 NobBikerz and Looted wagons with cheap DeffRollas. Then The Ork codex came out and that plan when down the toilet.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

 office_waaagh wrote:
Question: I thought of this earlier and I was wondering if anybody has tried a bikerboss deathstar?

The idea would be as follows: Two Ork horde detachments with 3 HQ slots each, take 5 warbosses on bikes with power klaws, one painboy on a bike, sprinkle in DLS and the blitzbike, then have them all join a min size unit of regular bikers. Take a couple of extra min size units of bikers for them to join when their meat shields get killed, since they're all ICs and can all join the same unit. Give the warlord a finkin' cap to try to outflank them for extra fun times. Let the biker nob eat challenges to keep the bosses swinging.

They're T6 so they can't be doubled out, 4+, FNP, they can jink, and get 3+ cover if they turboboost. In combat, they've got 25 attacks at WS6 S10 ap2, and if you give them attack squigs because why not at this point they can each reroll a miss. Shooting they've still got 18 shots S5 TL, and the blitzbike can be a nasty surprise for MEQs as well.

Only downside is it's like 700 points, but on paper anyway it sounds pretty 'ard to me. Has anyone tried this, or is there some reason that it's just a terrible idea and I should feel bad that I'm not seeing, besides the semi-obscene points cost?

I've not ran 5 warboss, but i have ran two. Warboss on the blitz bike and Zhadsnark. Warboss on the bike had DLS. Then a pain boy on a bike and a big mek on a bike. Big mek had KFF and a killsaw. Big mek is mainly their to provide an invu from shooting attacks that have ignore cover and ap4. Plus could break off from the mainly unit to go snag a late objective. You could do the same with the 5 warbosses. Keep them together and then when it comes down to last turn, split the squad up and go grab objectives. Going 2nd would really in that instant.

I have a list with 7 min, 2 PK and 5 BC. The reason for 7 is 5 regular Bikerz with PK Nob, PainBoy on Bike, and KFF Killsaw on Bike. You start out with average T6 and lose all the regular Bikerz first. Cheap expendable wounds.

When 7th first came out I wanted 10 Warbosses with 10 NobBikerz and Looted wagons with cheap DeffRollas. Then The Ork codex came out and that plan when down the toilet.

10 warbosses would be a lot of fun.

 PipeAlley wrote:

I have a list with 7 min, 2 PK and 5 BC. The reason for 7 is 5 regular Bikerz with PK Nob, PainBoy on Bike, and KFF Killsaw on Bike. You start out with average T6 and lose all the regular Bikerz first. Cheap expendable wounds.

When 7th first came out I wanted 10 Warbosses with 10 NobBikerz and Looted wagons with cheap DeffRollas. Then The Ork codex came out and that plan when down the toilet.

How are you getting 7 warbosses in, or are you just playing unbound?

Anyway, how does the unit perform? On paper it sounds like if it could catch a wraithknight or a titan it would eat it alive with attacks to spare.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

I have a list with 7 min, 2 PK and 5 BC. The reason for 7 is 5 regular Bikerz with PK Nob, PainBoy on Bike, and KFF Killsaw on Bike. You start out with average T6 and lose all the regular Bikerz first. Cheap expendable wounds.

When 7th first came out I wanted 10 Warbosses with 10 NobBikerz and Looted wagons with cheap DeffRollas. Then The Ork codex came out and that plan when down the toilet.

How are you getting 7 warbosses in, or are you just playing unbound?



Anyway, how does the unit perform? On paper it sounds like if it could catch a wraithknight or a titan it would eat it alive with attacks to spare.

He has a total of 9 HQs in his list, which means he would need to play 3 great waagh detachments and take 6 troop choices.

 Glitcha wrote:


He has a total of 9 HQs in his list, which means he would need to play 3 great waagh detachments and take 6 troop choices.

Does the great waaagh detachment give you three HQs? I thought it was +2 elites and +2 troops, and you needed an ork horde detachment with 3 compulsory troops choices to get the 3 HQs. Haven't got my Ghazzie codex handy to confirm though.

Edit: Yeah, ork horde detachment is 3 HQs available with 1 mandatory HQ and 3 mandatory troops. Great Waaagh detachment is 2 HQs with one mandatory HQ, troops, and elite. So he'd have to take 3 Ork Hordes with 9 troops choices minimum.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:


He has a total of 9 HQs in his list, which means he would need to play 3 great waagh detachments and take 6 troop choices.

Does the great waaagh detachment give you three HQs? I thought it was +2 elites and +2 troops, and you needed an ork horde detachment with 3 compulsory troops choices to get the 3 HQs. Haven't got my Ghazzie codex handy to confirm though.

Edit: Yeah, ork horde detachment is 3 HQs available with 1 mandatory HQ and 3 mandatory troops. Great Waaagh detachment is 2 HQs with one mandatory HQ, troops, and elite. So he'd have to take 3 Ork Hordes with 9 troops choices minimum.

Yeah you are right. I get the names mixed up. The one I was talking about is the basic ork codex.

 Rismonite wrote:
office_waaagh seems like a wonderful name.. I was pleased.. Thanks.

Glad I could make you smile!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Glitcha, how does your unit perform? I considered a big mek to take challenges and so on, but I thought an extra boss would be better offensively while defensively, a mob of bikers as ablative wounds is cheaper than a bik mek on a bike with KFF, since the ICs all have 2+ LoS anyway.

Bringing a bunch of bikebosses and a few mobs of bikers lets you split them apart as well and take on MSU armies more effectively, since five warbosses is probably overkill for a lot of stuff, and you can only kill so many things at once. Two bosses on bikes with a biker nob and three bikers lose the T6 majority toughness but could easily pulverize an MC or small troops unit each in one turn. Now, having said all this, I've never actually tried this, but building it would be a bit of an investment so I'm wondering if there's a reason not to do it that I'm not seeing.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

I have a list with 7 min, 2 PK and 5 BC. The reason for 7 is 5 regular Bikerz with PK Nob, PainBoy on Bike, and KFF Killsaw on Bike. You start out with average T6 and lose all the regular Bikerz first. Cheap expendable wounds.

When 7th first came out I wanted 10 Warbosses with 10 NobBikerz and Looted wagons with cheap DeffRollas. Then The Ork codex came out and that plan when down the toilet.

How are you getting 7 warbosses in, or are you just playing unbound?

Anyway, how does the unit perform? On paper it sounds like if it could catch a wraithknight or a titan it would eat it alive with attacks to spare.

Unbound unbound unbound!! Apparently I'm the only person on Dakka who worships unbound.

Against a good, experienced player it folds easily. Breaking of Bosses is very useful. They can join my single unit DeffKoptas for ablative wounds. Win or lose, it's a headache for my opponent.

 PipeAlley wrote:

Unbound unbound unbound!! Apparently I'm the only person on Dakka who worships unbound.

Against a good, experienced player it folds easily. Breaking of Bosses is very useful. They can join my single unit DeffKoptas for ablative wounds. Win or lose, it's a headache for my opponent.

Hey man, unbound is cool with me! I wouldn't want to build a super-powered unit out of unbound units, is all. You need your opponent's permission to field an unbound list, and it's not exactly sporting to say "can I have your permission to field ten HQs?" in a casual setting, if your opponent's showed up to play a CAD. And in a pick-up game, I imagine an opponent just saying "...no."

I play mostly battleforged, but I've played against plenty of themed unbound lists and it's a lot of fun. As unbound isn't universally accepted, though, I'm wondering whether it's been tried in the context of a pick-up game which I imagine would have to be battleforged. Anyway, what do you find are the achilles' heels of a unit like this? In my head, I'm picturing it having trouble against something like a Wolfstar or maybe psychic shenanigans, or maybe just not being able to kill small units fast enough to make back its points. That and sinking half your points into one unit might leave the rest of the army a bit lacking...what do you use to back them up?

What are my fellow Warboss's thoughts on Grot Tanks? Personally, i like them and i'll their rules, but how do they stack up in the competitive ork world?

Always liked Grot Tanks. Now they seem like straight up better Kans - in a less crowded slot (so many good HS that outshine the kans), 5+ invulns instead of nothing, no morale tests, mass tank shock ability, the CCW on the kans that they trade for all this is worse, and Grot Tanks are 40% cheaper (30 vs 50) than a Kan.

The only reason to field Kans IMO is because an army with kans *and* tanks looks even better than an army with tanks. And I guess because 2d6 movement is pretty annoying

I've already started looking for cheap tanks to convert up, plan to have quite a few of these things before long

Grotzookas, don't forget the Grotzookas. When I finish my collection and put together my diorama I also want grots in all forms so the Grot Tanks are on my list of things to get. Mass Tank Shock across a wide tank line....oh yeah.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

Unbound unbound unbound!! Apparently I'm the only person on Dakka who worships unbound.

Against a good, experienced player it folds easily. Breaking of Bosses is very useful. They can join my single unit DeffKoptas for ablative wounds. Win or lose, it's a headache for my opponent.

Hey man, unbound is cool with me! I wouldn't want to build a super-powered unit out of unbound units, is all. You need your opponent's permission to field an unbound list, and it's not exactly sporting to say "can I have your permission to field ten HQs?" in a casual setting, if your opponent's showed up to play a CAD. And in a pick-up game, I imagine an opponent just saying "...no."

I play mostly battleforged, but I've played against plenty of themed unbound lists and it's a lot of fun. As unbound isn't universally accepted, though, I'm wondering whether it's been tried in the context of a pick-up game which I imagine would have to be battleforged. Anyway, what do you find are the achilles' heels of a unit like this? In my head, I'm picturing it having trouble against something like a Wolfstar or maybe psychic shenanigans, or maybe just not being able to kill small units fast enough to make back its points. That and sinking half your points into one unit might leave the rest of the army a bit lacking...what do you use to back them up?

I totally and politely disagree about needing opponents permission for unbound. If you run cad, you get to reroll warlord traits and obsec. Unbound gets neither. It's a trade off GW created on purpose.

That being said, each gaming group is different and house rules abound. i'll respect someone else's rules when I'm in their house. unbound fixes a lot of issues created by codex creep, especially the new Eldar Codex.

Now personally I like to play Codex and Supplements only, never FW, escalation, Apocolypse units in a regular game. I'm happy to include those in Apocalypse games. That also happens to be the house rules where I play so it works out pretty well. Unbound fixes OP units. An equal points cost of MSU DeffKoptas will kill a WraithKnight.

I am very happy to see the Stompa in the Codex.

You need your opponents permission to play in general lol. It's up to them if they want to face an Unbound list, a balanced one or one that spams Windriders/Flyrants/Riptides, etc.

I personally don't play against Unbound lists and in general, my opponents haven't ever gone unbound, we all feel command benefits are too good to not include.

 Frozocrone wrote:
You need your opponents permission to play in general lol. It's up to them if they want to face an Unbound list, a balanced one or one that spams Windriders/Flyrants/Riptides, etc.

I personally don't play against Unbound lists and in general, my opponents haven't ever gone unbound, we all feel command benefits are too good to not include.

Okay but would you NOT play someone's unbound list? If so, why?

Personally I'd only play against Unbound if the person was new or had limited models with them. The prospect of someone filling their points with Riptides, Wraithknights or equilavalents just put me off.

Sure, I too could just have an army of Flyrants, but it would feel wrong to me. If I spam, I like paying the troops tax (lol Mucolids though) just to make it a bit fairer. What I really like, are the command benefits. Objective Secured has won me too many games for me to not include, as well as the Command Traits for Nid formations and Hive Fleet (forget name but you can re-roll IB)

Nothing against you and if you like playing against or with unbound lists then fair play to you, this is just a personal thing to me.

Sure no problem I know I'm in the minority by far it's just that Unbound solves problems like WraithKnights much better than so many discussions on Dakka right now about banning Range D or -1 to damage tables or all this other overly complicated stuff. It's in the Main Rulebook. It's intended. If someone wants to bring 5 WraithKnights or Riptides Lol they can wade through endless Grots and Mek Gunz.

Whut? whers me thumpin' stick this aint no democratzy, cunsule nofin, im da boss 'ere

couldn't resist gathering a council is so not the ork way.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Sure no problem I know I'm in the minority by far it's just that Unbound solves problems like WraithKnights much better than so many discussions on Dakka right now about banning Range D or -1 to damage tables or all this other overly complicated stuff. It's in the Main Rulebook. It's intended. If someone wants to bring 5 WraithKnights or Riptides Lol they can wade through endless Grots and Mek Gunz.

How does unbound solve balance issues like the WK? I don't see it.

WAAC players can abuse either system and spam OP units.

What you seem to be referring to is using unbound to list tailor, which is not a counter to imbalance, but is rather a symptom of it.

At the moment it seems that ork are best run using formations + a CAD detachment.

Green tide, bullyboyz, blitzbrigade are all decent, add them to a force with lots of mek gunz and you are good to go.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Whut? whers me thumpin' stick this aint no democratzy, cunsule nofin, im da boss 'ere

couldn't resist gathering a council is so not the ork way.

Unlike the usual warboss's, Ghazzy delegates duties to his hand picked lieutenants, he's the epitome of Orkiness and a Prophet of Gork and Mork receiving communications from them directly. He's a genius by human standards and continues to confound the Imperium's army of tacticians. A lot of what he does would seem unOrky to those players who hang on to the exact misconceptions the fluff says the Imperium and other races continue to make about the Orks despite that all his decisions and actions are driven by the visions of Ork gods. The text says multiple times that the other races misconceptions of the Orks are erroneous. Ork fluff isn't based on the fluff of others whose fluff and misconceptions are to flavour their own personality and how they view the Orks. No need to advise people to drop entire formations and units and such based on this skewed idea of what is or isn't Orky. Ghazzy's Council is perfectly fine and Orky. He's not running just one Waaaaagh! btw, he's running 2 atm and making plans to go boost a 3rd Waaaaaaagh! Thanks to Gork and Mork he telepathically communicates to his officers in different star systems in real time. It's flat out impossible to do his Great Waaaagh! alone.

Once Orkimedes perfects his latest tellyporta project, Ghazzy will have tellaportation ability that allows him to cross the galaxy in an instant without the Warp so that he can jump around star systems to keep giving directions to various officers in various Waaaaaaagh! Not too surprised Orkimedes is #1 on the list for Imperium's Assasin bureau. If successful the Orks will have a means to travel the galaxy that outstrips all other methods the other races use. Don't underestimate these guys.

What are some ideas for optimum use of the Great Waaagh detachment? I was thinking something like this:
HQs- Grotsnik, Warboss with BBP
Troops- Gretchin (DS Grots anyone?), maybe one big Boyz squad for Grotsnik
Elites- 5 man Tankbusta Squads and maybe 1-2 bigger or more expensive squads to put your fearless guys in
Fast Attack- 3 solo koptas or some buggies
Heavy Support- Mek Gunz, vehicles

I feel like people trashed this force org chart because it hurts ork mob rule, but I think this might be a good way to avoid mob rule entirely. Min squads don't benefit anyway (unless they're Nobz) so I feel like you can take advantage of that with the expanded elite slot to take more Bustas. Mob rule is often bad even when it's passed, and this list forces you to avoid it.
(Maybe Grukk would also fit here for his useful warlord trait. His Rippin Krew could be used for more DS prescence, but the units aren't very good overall, so probably avoid. They could have some use if used alongside other units.)

The Imperial Answer wrote:
They could perhaps be competative if you bring enough of them or in lower point games.

I notice the Waaagh! Ghazghkull Dreadmob can fit into a 1500 point game quite easily (but its the entire army of itself).


But ideally the Green Tide and Dreadmobs both rely on your opponent not bringing enough to counter you ideally.

If someone is expecting them then they both have the potential to fall apart pretty easily.

Going back to this old post, I also think orks walkers work only if they are numerous,. Even with the meta being heavy At, ther is a chance that the number of dread is too much for the opponent. (adding kff and Meks will help though)
They are no slower than the green tide, we should play them like that.

I was wondering everyone's thoughts on running a Big Mek on bike with the Mega Force Field in a Speed Freek list?

I'm starting to mull this over now with the new Eldar D-scythes, in addition to Tau markerlights and just general proliferation of Ignores Cover stuff, and am trying to determine if the points are worth it versus a 2nd painboy on bike.

This would alter how i run my bikes quite a bit, if i take the painboy and big mek then I'll run a 15 bike deathstar with Zhadsnark.
If i take 2 painboys then I'll probably have Zhad in a 10-12 strong mob with one painboy and a second 10-12 strong mob with the other.

I don't see many people taking the big mek on bike and was just wondering if maybe the new Eldar can push him from situational to a viable buff to a bike list.

Sure, nothing wrong with that. Can even send that mek on a bike to join a unit of Deffkoptas to give them a save too. It'll take a little bit of kit bashing though.

 PipeAlley wrote:

Okay but would you NOT play someone's unbound list? If so, why?

The BRB says "players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use." It's even in bold, so you know they're super serious, for real you guys. I and most other people I know interpret this to mean your opponent has to agree that unbound lists are acceptable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCupcakeCowboy wrote:
I was wondering everyone's thoughts on running a Big Mek on bike with the Mega Force Field in a Speed Freek list?

I'm starting to mull this over now with the new Eldar D-scythes, in addition to Tau markerlights and just general proliferation of Ignores Cover stuff, and am trying to determine if the points are worth it versus a 2nd painboy on bike.

This would alter how i run my bikes quite a bit, if i take the painboy and big mek then I'll run a 15 bike deathstar with Zhadsnark.
If i take 2 painboys then I'll probably have Zhad in a 10-12 strong mob with one painboy and a second 10-12 strong mob with the other.

I don't see many people taking the big mek on bike and was just wondering if maybe the new Eldar can push him from situational to a viable buff to a bike list.

I think a lot will depend on how you organize the rest of your army. Orks work best by threat overload, just having so many things on the table that your opponent can't kill all of them. Deathstars work if they're backed up by a bunch of similarly scary stuff so that your opponent has to divide his firepower. I'd be worried about deep-striking S D flamers ruining your day since you don't get FNP against D weapons. I prefer MSU mini-deathstars with a horde of boyz to run interference...but give it a try and let us know how it works out!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/647132.page#7804194
List I came up with that has MFF Mek and utilizes Great Waaagh Detachment. All advice is welcome.

On the note of Grot Tanks can those be used as your 1 Elites for the Waaagh! Ghazghkull formation ?

I notice Grot Tanks are an Elites choice if one of your HQs is a Bigmek.


Also I notice Weirdboy staff has the "Force" rule on it and adds 2 to his Strength.

How useful would this be if he were able to get "Hammerhand" off on himself before a fight (Strength 10?) and piled in with a Warboss, a Nob (with a Waaagh! Banner boosting Weapon Skill) and some other Boyz to attack something like a Trygon or a Squiggoth ?

I think i have discovered a VERY competitive and viable spam list for orks

this is purely for competitive games (dont be a and bring this if its just a friendly)

Any multiple of this (using CAD or Ork horde detachment. Max 6 copies with 2 ork horde detachments which could come up to 3k points on its own)

Here it is:

Ork warboss with mega armour and boss pole
mek (small one that you can take with every HQ)
15 boyz, nob with power klaw
battlewagon with 2 rokkits and ram

so, 1 unit for 370 points. that leaves 30 spare per duplicate (assuming each is 400) for upgrades like da lucky stick, more rokkits, more boyz to fill the wagon or more rokkits for the wagon.

I used 2 of these this weekend against my friend who had dark angels. One copy had lucky stick and the other had da finkin kap.

what i killed with 2 copies at 2k points:
------- a 600 point tank
------- a rhino
------- 5 tacs
------- las pred
------- 1 terminator (only 1 left in squad when reached)

casualties taken as a result of the battle
------- 3 boyz
------- 1 hull point on a wagon that was repaired the next turn by a mek boy.

if thats not powerful, then i dont know what is.

you get a TONNE of power klaw attacks that your opponent simply cant snipe out because the mek boy will accept any challenges. this unit can literally take on anything in the game (except perhaps flyer spam, which is why i always max out rokkits if possible on the wagons and maybe even in the squad)



game strat at 2k:

5 of these units, one with CAD and another with ork horde detachment.

turn 1: move 12" in move phase and another 6" in shooting phase towards enemy.

turn 2: move 6", disembark 6", fire all weapons at vehicles that can be assaulted or their contents assaulted, proceed to charge everything. you should be 18" from your opponents table edge, and so there should be several things within charge range assuming they are not camping literally everything on their board edge, in which case, dont disembark, simply move another 12" forward. on turn 3 you will be in assault range of literally everything no problem if you havent been turn 2 (which you should be in 99% of cases)

your opponent probably wont be able to take out 5 battlewagons. And yes, i have thought about taking the formation which allows 5 scouting battlewagons, which basically guarantees a turn 2 charge with everything, but most tournaments only allow 2 detachments, and you would need 3 if you want the wagon formation AND 5 warbosses.

this is simply an opinion of mine that i am sharing, feel free to comment on it and argue openly

look forward to hearing your views!

Sounds fun. Do you line them up together so there is just a wall of AV14 coming at them?

Would go Blitz Brigade if 3+ detachments are allowed though.

I also don't think you need to worry about Flyers, particulary if you go first and get in combat T2. WAAAAAAGH

 Frozocrone wrote:
Sounds fun. Do you line them up together so there is just a wall of AV14 coming at them?

Would go Blitz Brigade if 3+ detachments are allowed though.

I also don't think you need to worry about Flyers, particulary if you go first and get in combat T2. WAAAAAAGH

you could do that, but as long as you use cover, you could spread them out, and your opponent will still have a hard time taking out the wagons. especially if you get the strategic trait that makes it night fighting and gives your force night vision haha

Where are these formations coming from? Dataslates, forgeworld? Really should try to keep tabs on them better...

Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

I've been training with my Green Tide for ATC.

It has been an interesting experience. Eldar can now take away the ability to run with the Tide which is devastating.

Also, I keep running into invisibility, rerollable 2+ saves, or Guardsmen with Rerollable 4++ that can effectively tarpit the tide. I never thought the tide would be something easily tarpitted, but I wonder if anyone has advice for dealing with those situations.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

its 55% ish with both re rolls

you would need to use nobz or meganobz then

i would infiltrait 18" away, only gets you 6" closer tho and you still cant charge on the first turn. is it worth basing your whole strat on this? maybe

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

Probability is easiest when calculating how often you don't get it. So the chance of not getting it with your first trait is 5/6, and with the second 4/5. The chance of not getting it is therefore 2/3 (5/6 x 4/5), so the chance of getting it is 1/3.

Now, I THINK this bit will be right as well, but I no longer study maths. A re-roll will effectively give you another chance to exactly the same, i.e. another chance of the above. The only instance where you don't get it is where you don't roll it both times, if that makes sense. So the chance of not getting it at all is 2/3 x 2/3 which is 4/9. Therefore the chance of getting it is 5/9, i.e. about 56%

I'm pretty sure that's right, but, if anything, I've underestimated the increase in probability provided by a re-roll, so if I'm wrong, it's likely to be higher. Hope it helps anyway!

 The Shadow wrote:
Where are these formations coming from? Dataslates, forgeworld? Really should try to keep tabs on them better...

the ghazkull supplement


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Can someone help me calculate probability?

I want to know the likelihood of getting the 3rd Strategic Warlord trait, assuming that I A. Have the Finkin' Kap, and B. Can re-roll one or both of my Warlord traits due to being in a CAD.

My plan is to take a Warboss with said item, in a battlewagon, alongside 2 other units also in battlewagons, and then infiltrate them. Possibly outflank them, depending on the level of firepower the opponent has.

Probability is easiest when calculating how often you don't get it. So the chance of not getting it with your first trait is 5/6, and with the second 4/5. The chance of not getting it is therefore 2/3 (5/6 x 4/5), so the chance of getting it is 1/3.

Now, I THINK this bit will be right as well, but I no longer study maths. A re-roll will effectively give you another chance to exactly the same, i.e. another chance of the above. The only instance where you don't get it is where you don't roll it both times, if that makes sense. So the chance of not getting it at all is 2/3 x 2/3 which is 4/9. Therefore the chance of getting it is 5/9, i.e. about 56%

I'm pretty sure that's right, but, if anything, I've underestimated the increase in probability provided by a re-roll, so if I'm wrong, it's likely to be higher. Hope it helps anyway!

yes, i got the same, 5/9.

did 5/9 X 5/9 X 4/5 X 4/5

Thanks guys! I study law - not so good with the maths biz.

So, a roughly 56% chance, and it's not like the other Strat traits are bad necessarily...I like it!

The plan is to use it as a sort of poor-mans blitz brigade with 3 battlewagons instead of 5, so outflanking rather than trying to sneak closer. Of course there's the contingent risks that come along with that; they might not all turn up at the same time (in fact they probably won't), or on the same side.

You guys are close with the math. A re-roll actually nets you the "original" amount multiplied by the chance to "fail". So for example, twin linked BS 2 ( my favorite example) is (1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3).

Also, you guys are close with 56%, but it's not actually a 2/3 chance to not get it for each roll, it's (5/6) * (5/6), but you totally have the methodology right. Anyhow, it ends up being roughly 52%.
1 - ( (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) )

/end math rant
Sorry that took so long, I kinda like math



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the easiest way to calculate things with a re-roll is to do 1-(probability of failing the first roll and the second roll).

So back to the BS 2 example, it would be 1 - ((2/3)*(2/3)).
So, 5/9.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Grotzookas, don't forget the Grotzookas. When I finish my collection and put together my diorama I also want grots in all forms so the Grot Tanks are on my list of things to get. Mass Tank Shock across a wide tank line....oh yeah.

I tried that once. The opponent insisted all the grot tanks have to tank shock the exact same place and collide or some gak.

I mean seriously, someone brings some sweet as grot tanks and the other guy has to try and gak it up with rules lawyering.

Hunam0001 wrote:
You guys are close with the math. A re-roll actually nets you the "original" amount multiplied by the chance to "fail". So for example, twin linked BS 2 ( my favorite example) is (1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3).

Also, you guys are close with 56%, but it's not actually a 2/3 chance to not get it for each roll, it's (5/6) * (5/6), but you totally have the methodology right. Anyhow, it ends up being roughly 52%.
1 - ( (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) )

/end math rant
Sorry that took so long, I kinda like math



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the easiest way to calculate things with a re-roll is to do 1-(probability of failing the first roll and the second roll).

So back to the BS 2 example, it would be 1 - ((2/3)*(2/3)).
So, 5/9.

I'm just curious here, I don't insist that I'm right by any means. I calculate the odds at 66%.
The way I view it, is you have 4 rolls to get the trait you want. You don't really need to multiply the odds by if you fail to get it, because you won't be rerolling if you succeed.

Example: You roll for the warlord trait (1/6), you fail. You reroll to try and get the trait (1/6), you fail. You try with your second roll (1/6), you fail. You try with your re-roll (1/6) [sidenote: what happens if you get the same trait as you had the first time? I thought there wasn't a second reroll...].

So overall you have 4 chances at 1/6 odds which is 2/3 or 66%.

After being frustrated for a very long time with my boyz being clobbered again and again last night, I tried a new tactic, which has already been posted elsewhere, but I can't say it enough. Megaboss with DLS and a painboy is SO STRONG. Talk about taking hits for the team, this guy shrugs off everything. I highly recommend this with some MANz right next to him to do "Look Out, Sir". If this doesn't get your boyz across the table, I don't know what will.

 delta9heir wrote:
After being frustrated for a very long time with my boyz being clobbered again and again last night, I tried a new tactic, which has already been posted elsewhere, but I can't say it enough. Megaboss with DLS and a painboy is SO STRONG. Talk about taking hits for the team, this guy shrugs off everything. I highly recommend this with some MANz right next to him to do "Look Out, Sir". If this doesn't get your boyz across the table, I don't know what will.

would it be better to have a squad of boyz wirth him? then he can look out sir any big AP 1 or AP 2 shots onto a boy instead of a meganob model, and the warboss can take the rest.

 Glitcha wrote:


I've been preparing this list for a event.

Great Waagh Detachment

HQ
Big mek with MFF

Mek

Buzzgob

Troops
'ard boyz w/nob BP PK in a Trukk with ramx2
Shoota boyz in a trukk with ram

Elites
MANz Missile

Fast-Attack
3 Deffkopta
Dakkajet

Heavy Support
Deff dread 1 big shoota 1 rokket
Deff dread 2 mega blasters

LoW
Buzzgob's Big Mek Stompa

Hey Everyone, the event that I made this list was this past weekend. This list hit like a ton of bricks. With the Stompa vehicle hunting and blasting big bugs. I managed to finish 7 of 29. Made into the finals. Also the Stompa never died. He came close in one game, but most players tried to ignore him. Once they tried that, I moved Started to move the stompa closer to them and trying to assault their army. List was pretty fun to play. If you got the models, I'd say give this list a try and have fun with it.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
You guys are close with the math. A re-roll actually nets you the "original" amount multiplied by the chance to "fail". So for example, twin linked BS 2 ( my favorite example) is (1/3) + ((2/3)*(1/3).

Also, you guys are close with 56%, but it's not actually a 2/3 chance to not get it for each roll, it's (5/6) * (5/6), but you totally have the methodology right. Anyhow, it ends up being roughly 52%.
1 - ( (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) * (5/6) )

/end math rant
Sorry that took so long, I kinda like math



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the easiest way to calculate things with a re-roll is to do 1-(probability of failing the first roll and the second roll).

So back to the BS 2 example, it would be 1 - ((2/3)*(2/3)).
So, 5/9.

I'm just curious here, I don't insist that I'm right by any means. I calculate the odds at 66%.
The way I view it, is you have 4 rolls to get the trait you want. You don't really need to multiply the odds by if you fail to get it, because you won't be rerolling if you succeed.

Example: You roll for the warlord trait (1/6), you fail. You reroll to try and get the trait (1/6), you fail. You try with your second roll (1/6), you fail. You try with your re-roll (1/6) [sidenote: what happens if you get the same trait as you had the first time? I thought there wasn't a second reroll...].

So overall you have 4 chances at 1/6 odds which is 2/3 or 66%.

Well, that's close. You're totally right that you have a 1/6 probability that each roll nets you Master of Ambush, but the trick to this one is that each roll isn't independent of the last one (because once you roll a 3, you stop rolling/caring).

So the probability of the second roll isn't 1/6, it's the dependent on you failing the previous roll, so it becomes ((5/6) * (1/6)) or ((probability I failed the first roll) *(probability I succeed the second roll)).

Now what this means is that the full chain of getting Master of Ambush on four rolls, becomes (1/6) +((5/6)*(1/6)) + ((5/6)*(5/6)*(1/6)) + ((5/6*(5/6)*(5/6)*(1/6)). This is way too long and complicated for my taste (love math, hate arithmetic).

So, the easier way to do this is to remember that (probability of success) + (probability of failure) = 1... (probability of a draw = 0 in this case, just for completeness sake).

Now the probability of failing all four rolls is pretty simple (by comparison), it's just (5/6)^4 (probability of rolling not a 3 four times in a row). So we just do 1 - (probability of failure), and we get approximately 52% chance of success

Sorry for going on such a tangent, I realize this has very little to do with Ork tactics. Other than pointing out getting Master of Ambush with Da Finkin' Cap is 52%, so something you can plan on having in roughly half your games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I realize there is a fringe case of the last re-roll being a duplicate of the first re-roll... To clarify (because that last phrase is more than a little obtuse): If I roll a 1, re-roll that to a 2, then for my second warlord trait, roll a 4, and re-roll that to a 2.

I don't know what happens at that point. Do we get to re-roll that last one? Or do we invoke the "can't re-roll a re-roll" thing?

thanks for clearing that up all

considering i got it wrong and am doing A level probability and statistics in a month or so, its slightly worrying

52% chance is obviously not reliable enough to base a whole strat on. HOWEVER, in my 2K army i have 2 manz missiles in trucks, so just in case i get that 3, i can infiltrate them in some cover near my opponent to get on them turn 2 which is nice, but doesn't affect my overall strategy if i dont get it.

Hi guys,..

played a game last Sunday.. only just now have i recovered from my WTF moment...

I played a 1850 game against Necrons,.. and tabled the guy on turn 4. I almost exclusively took him out with my Bully boyz.

My list

HQ
Zhadsnark (WL) (threatkiller)
Warboss/Mega armour/lucky stikk/ C-Body (runs with bully boyz)

Troops
10 boyz-trukk (objective cappers or overwatch sponges)
10 boyz-trukk (objective cappers or overwatch sponges)
6 Bikerboyz (run with snarky) (threatkillerz)
5 bikerboyz and 1 nob with PK (threatkillers/late game cappers)
5 bikerboyz and 1 nob with PK (threatkillers/late game cappers)

Elites (Bully boyz form)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)

Heavy Support
10 Lootas (aim, fire!)
10 Lootas (aim, fire!)

My overall strategy with this list is to search for the 2 biggest threats and rush those with trukks and bikes evenly divided. The enemy has to split his focus on 2 threats which is hard for Crons since they are almost always outnumbered.

Anyways, Gork and Mork were with me. I deployed, as always,.. on the 12'' line. My opponent made the mistake to deploy his Destroyers on his 12'' line.. I rushed forward and took the shot... and made it. 12'' move, disembark 6'' and charge (after 'ere we go reroll i made it) Booyah! Krumping time!
Turn 1 charge with 2 bully boyz squad on his destroyer squad while threatening to charge his overlord on barge with my boyz and bikers..

From that point on it became a massacre... Tabled the guy on turn 4. Never expected this since i almost always get shot to green confetti...

Maybe some people like to try out this list sometime

I have something similar but I have more Bikes and no MANz/Trukk Boyz.

Trukk Boyz sound good though with MANz to take overwatch. Heck Gretchin could be viable, 35 pts to throw away overwatch shots.

I thought you could only move 6" and disembark 6"??

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
I thought you could only move 6" and disembark 6"??

Hmm.. lemme check.. i alway thought that a fast vehicle was able to move 12'' and then disembark

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
I thought you could only move 6" and disembark 6"??

Hmm.. lemme check.. i alway thought that a fast vehicle was able to move 12'' and then disembark

if so, then i am EXCITED

It's up to 6 to disembark but Trukks can move 12 and then Flat out 12 to cover the distance quickly.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's up to 6 to disembark but Trukks can move 12 and then Flat out 12 to cover the distance quickly.

this is what i thought

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
12'' move, disembark 6'' and charge (after 'ere we go reroll i made it)

can't disembark after a 12" movement.

It's still possible with a boarding plank and a 11-12 charge move to make it there turn one. Not something to build a strategy around, however.

Mehhh. seems i made a boo boo :( Still wouldnt have made that much of a difference in this game. Anyways... thanks for clearing this up!

I remember the glory days of 3rd ed when you could get a 20" charge every time. 21" with a red paint job.

Still, you can get a 6" move, 6" deployment, d6" run move, and with WAAAGH! you get a 2d6" charge, +2" with a boarding plank, and re-rolling one of your charge dice. That's an average 22" charge threat, potentially up to 32"! With choice units, this is just nuts. It's where regular Nobz do well in my opinion, since meganobz and bikes can't run. Put them in a trukk or battlewagon and charge something that thinks it's safe two feet away.

Too bad there's no WAAAGH! on the first turn.

 office_waaagh wrote:


Too bad there's no WAAAGH! on the first turn.

This, I mean clearly as a warboss you'd be waaaghing as soon as the battle begun, as you stormed over those hills you'd be bellowing, your orks, not like you were tryin to be sneaky or nuffin!
But im glad that list worked out well, looks great fun to play.

As for the MAboss with DLS. I stuck mine in a wagon with a painboy and 18 boyz (mek and Nob), literally such a powerful unit, using the MAboss to swallow anything but AP2 means the unit lasts untouched till combat, and then once your there you can go to town I've had the MAboss tank flame templates that would have eaten like 7 boyz, after a couple of those you've literally made back the MAbosses points just through saves, not to mention all his krumpin'!

Thanks everyone for sharing all the great list ideas and feedback.

To summarize, it sounds like the consensus winners are:
Warboss with Lukky Stikk and either bike or mega armor
Painboy
Meganobz in transport
Tankbustas in transport
Warbikes

Now that we have some ideas of what to include, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively play these units? I know it will depend on the mission and opponent, but are there some generalizations assuming you are playing common opponents like Marines? For example, how do you use trukks to get MANz close enough to charge without the trukks getting wrecked first? Deploy them or keep some in reserve? Obviously, if you can advance and stay behind LoS-blocking terrain, that is a no-brainier, but that is often impossible.

The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Thanks everyone for sharing all the great list ideas and feedback.

To summarize, it sounds like the consensus winners are:
Warboss with Lukky Stikk and either bike or mega armor
Painboy
Meganobz in transport
Tankbustas in transport
Warbikes

Now that we have some ideas of what to include, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively play these units? I know it will depend on the mission and opponent, but are there some generalizations assuming you are playing common opponents like Marines? For example, how do you use trukks to get MANz close enough to charge without the trukks getting wrecked first? Deploy them or keep some in reserve? Obviously, if you can advance and stay behind LoS-blocking terrain, that is a no-brainier, but that is often impossible.

I'll give my thoughts and some idea of what works for me with these units, for what it's worth.

MANz work well by being a giant distraction. They can absolutely wreck almost anything they touch, and with W2 and a 2+ they require concentrated fire to kill, but they're cheap enough that you can afford to lose them to draw most of an army's firepower for a turn. Point them at something you know your opponent values and move at top speed towards it. You'll force them to deal with the MANz and draw a lot of fire away from your main force. Just don't point them at grav, plasma, or heavy weapons. Sure, their trukk will probably get wrecked, but then you get to deploy, move, and charge in your next turn. Skorchas can be great tarpit insurance and for 5 pts each they're well worth it.

Keep a few tough, mobile units in reserve either off the table or just in your deployment zone out of LOS to go hunting after your opponent commits their army. Then either launch them at the decisive point or use them to go hunting for vulnerable units. Keeping MANz back like this also lets you bring them on in an area where your opponent has deployed fewer weapons capable of dealing with them. A backfield redeployment in the first turn is risky since it's a turn not spent closing the distance, but it can pay off.

Don't be afraid to pop your Waaagh! to make a key charge succeed. Don't hold on to it "just in case" a better opportunity comes up. It can be worth it to get those tankbustas an extra D6" to charge an important vehicle. Even on foot Orks can be surprisingly fast.

Mobility is useful for two things: hitting the choicest targets and playing to the mission. Bikes can excel at this, zipping around providing fire support one turn and then hopping onto an objective for extra victory points the next. Just remember, bikes are mobile fire support, NOT a close combat unit except under extreme circumstances. The dakkaguns are nice but their main use is for mobility, and you lose that if you get bogged down in combat. Not to mention your jink save. Decide whether it's worth putting a klaw on the nob with this in mind: it could buy you another bike with points left over for a shoota boy.

Painboy is highly situational, in my opinion. Put him in a big unit of 'ard boyz for a mob that's nearly invincible. But that 50 points can buy a lot of other great stuff. The worth of the painboy is down to the value of the unit he buffs. He's usually not worth it for min-sized MANz missiles in the end but can be great if there's a warboss, or in a unit of Nobz or Gitz. A 5+ FNP after a 4+ save is statistically equivalent to power armour. He's basically mandatory in a Green Tide.

Bottom line with orks is focused threat overload. Your opponent will try to bring an army that can deal with everything from heavy vehicles to light infantry. Try to make his anti-tank waste its time by only offering weak units, or by offering so many targets that they can't kill everything before being overwhelmed.

Personally, I don't like using mega armour on my warboss. I can see the point, but there have been many times where being able to run and charge with his squad has really saved the day for me. I would rather use a sacrificial character like a mek to deal with nasty enemy ICs.

Krusha has a point.
MA is nice on a warboss but imo I think its primary uses are; When you have a MANz unit that can't run anyway, or when your using it with the DLS for 2+ reroll. Other than that when loaded into units of boyz a warboss without armour is just as deadly, as he's not meant to be in challenges, hes killing off the rest of the squad while your boyz take the wounds.

However, I do still like the MAboss with DLS in a squad of boyz with a painboy. In my last game I was running him with a wagon full of boyz and I knew I was going to be getting some turn 1 DSing incinerators. So I rushed the wagon to mid table, his DSers came in behind the wagon, flamed it and stormboltered it, however he'd forgotten about my MAboss and I saved myself losing about 4 boyz, he popped the wagon and again I used the MA with DLS to tank. Then on my turn I multicharged, using a few boyz to tag myself to the GKs in my board half while the Warboss and Nob charged a couple transports. Meaning I managed to not take any casualties, tie up his unit and open up two vehicles to get at his juicy scions inside

But as said, the MA is situational, I certainly don't think its a mandatory upgrade. Its also 40pts. Recently I've been considering keeping my Warbosses much cheaper and running many many many many bosses by using a few horde detachments Warboss in every trukk?? choose your targets now fool!

Solar Shock wrote:
So I rushed the wagon to mid table, his DSers came in behind the wagon, flamed it and stormboltered it, however he'd forgotten about my MAboss and I saved myself losing about 4 boyz

No escape hits are resolved against random models, so you can't tank unless you're lucky to roll that it's a boss taking the wound.

ahhh missed that. I'll have to remember that next time. well that's one less use

The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Thanks everyone for sharing all the great list ideas and feedback.

To summarize, it sounds like the consensus winners are:
Warboss with Lukky Stikk and either bike or mega armor
Painboy
Meganobz in transport
Tankbustas in transport
Warbikes

Now that we have some ideas of what to include, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively play these units? I know it will depend on the mission and opponent, but are there some generalizations assuming you are playing common opponents like Marines? For example, how do you use trukks to get MANz close enough to charge without the trukks getting wrecked first? Deploy them or keep some in reserve? Obviously, if you can advance and stay behind LoS-blocking terrain, that is a no-brainier, but that is often impossible.

Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit. This is mainly because they can scout and turbo boost 24." Great for jumping around the table and grabing objectives or diving in the corner for line breaker, if the mission has it. But to answer your questions, none of these units should be put in reserve. Warboss on the bike and pain boy on a bike with the warbikers would be good choice. Personally, if i'm going to run a warboss on a bike than it would be Zhadsnark (FW). If you are going seconded and you are worried about the MANz getting stuck in your deployment zone, you could always put their trukk in cover or out of line of sight. At that point, i'd recommend the RAM on the trukk. Turn 1 move 12" turbo boos 12". This maneuver should get the MANz where they need to be. For the Tankbustas, I'd recommend the Mek Junka as a transport option. Upgrade the Junka to be AV 13. Since the Tankbustas can't buy 'ard armor, they need a transport that can get them around. Once per game, the junka can be a fast vehicle. You can more 12" turbo boost 12" to get the tankbustas into a firing position for the next turn.

 Glitcha wrote:
Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit.

Until they start rolling on the Mob Rule table.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit.

Until they start rolling on the Mob Rule table.

Even with the lack of a character they are still good option, personally. Scouting threat that can hunt down light-medium armor and can move very quickly to get to an objective.

Just have one Deffkopta if you're gonna Scout/late game Objective and linebreaker. Mob Rule doesn't apply when they are dead

I'd add Mek Gunz and Lootas to the list of winners but obviously, Mek Gunz are dependant on whether you run Zhadsnark as a Warlord.

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Personally, I'd say Deffkoptas are a good competitive unit.

Until they start rolling on the Mob Rule table.

Even with the lack of a character they are still good option, personally. Scouting threat that can hunt down light-medium armor and can move very quickly to get to an objective.

A lone deffkopta actually seems like a decent idea. Just reserve it, bring it on when it comes on and then chances are your opponent is going to ignore it and then you can just scoot around threatening objectives late-game.

I also second the idea of single koptas, when I have spare FA slots and some points I will always grab a couple as single units. generally you are going to give up first blood, so even if you do take a copta you aren't actually losing it outright. Secondly you can always hide them behind BLOS if your super worried.

They can be very effective in maelstrom for you can pretty much boost straight for the objectives you need first turn. At 30 pts you've not invested a lot, yeh they die if aimed at, but that's why you have multiple. It still takes a units shooting regardless, so hopefully its taken some focus of elsewhere. They can also scout, so you can give them a change of deployment which can very handy in maelstrom. They can also be outflanked if you really need them to be or don't want them killed early game.

Solar Shock wrote:
I also second the idea of single koptas, when I have spare FA slots and some points I will always grab a couple as single units. generally you are going to give up first blood, so even if you do take a copta you aren't actually losing it outright. Secondly you can always hide them behind BLOS if your super worried.

They can be very effective in maelstrom for you can pretty much boost straight for the objectives you need first turn. At 30 pts you've not invested a lot, yeh they die if aimed at, but that's why you have multiple. It still takes a units shooting regardless, so hopefully its taken some focus of elsewhere. They can also scout, so you can give them a change of deployment which can very handy in maelstrom. They can also be outflanked if you really need them to be or don't want them killed early game.

That's why you keep them back in reserve. If they come on turn 2 or 3, chances are that first blood is gone by then.

That is true, but sometimes if say im running a trukk heavy list then I don't bother. As I know something is going to eat the dust, so I can then use them to grab a couple maelstrom early on.

I have also found;
Big mek on bike with SAG, with 3 koptas in reserves to be strong too. Coming on from a flank with 3 TL rokkits and the SAG is great fun

I've recently got 3 blackreach koptas and used them in a previous game as single squads. I must say they're really good. They fly around, grab points, annoy the opponent. And they're rokkit platforms that you can never have enough of. All in all, 2 koptas in single squads feel better than a unit of rokkit kommandoes for the same pt cost, unfortunately =(

its because they are TL! TL is da bee's knee's!
TL rokkits on platforms that can jink, move 12", turboboost, scout. They are damn good. I think I need more koptas.... in fact.... gona make a kopta when I get home!

Having TL on the BS's on the gunwagon was soooo good last game, literally when you roll no hits, then re-roll to get 1-2 hits. your like;

lol

yep, i guess, kommandoes just need something extra

HQ
Zhadsnark (WL) (threatkiller)
Warboss/Mega armour/lucky stikk/ C-Body (runs with bully boyz)

Troops
10 boyz-trukk (objective cappers or overwatch sponges)
10 boyz-trukk (objective cappers or overwatch sponges)
6 Bikerboyz (run with snarky) (threatkillerz)
5 bikerboyz and 1 nob with PK (threatkillers/late game cappers)
5 bikerboyz and 1 nob with PK (threatkillers/late game cappers)

Elites (Bully boyz form)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)
5x BBoyz in trukk (killers)

Heavy Support
10 Lootas (aim, fire!)
10 Lootas (aim, fire!)

Yeah I've run similar lists before. I find anti air to be a problem though and usually sub in a Dakkajet with flyboss for it. Or grots beinhd an adl combined with the Lootas.

HQ
Big mek with MFF

Mek

Buzzgob

Troops
'ard boyz w/nob BP PK in a Trukk with ramx2
Shoota boyz in a trukk with ram

Elites
MANz Missile

Fast-Attack
3 Deffkopta
Dakkajet

Heavy Support
Deff dread 1 big shoota 1 rokket
Deff dread 2 mega blasters

LoW
Buzzgob's Big Mek Stompa

How did you find the Deffdreads? I usually run them behind the Stompa for cover but they tend to get left behind a lot and end up floundering around midfield.
Do your MANZ go in the Stompa or?

 Ratius wrote:


How did you find the Deffdreads? I usually run them behind the Stompa for cover but they tend to get left behind a lot and end up floundering around midfield.
Do your MANZ go in the Stompa or?

Actually my deff dreads did their job. They are close support for the stompa. Buzzgob's stompa makes then scoring and deny units and if anything came close to the stompa and tried to assault it they would have to deal with both of the dreads. I also placed mine to sides of my stompa to cover the stompa's flank and put the stompa with its back at the edge of the table. Kind of build wrapping him from the deep strike meltaguns. The MANz had a trukk and where a MANz missile. I used my trukks to build choke points on the table and force my opponent to deal with the trukk units or the stompa.

There was also a cheap shoota boy mob in a trukk providing flank coverage to the stompa from infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a link to my new version of my list. I want to try and buff it up a bit. I think this does the trick.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647556.page#7813151

 koooaei wrote:
lol

yep, i guess, kommandoes just need something extra

Yeah like Snikrot being able to assault from reserves. In no way game breaking but would be awesome again!

Thanks for the good advice, Office_Waagh!

I saw another good tip on one of the other Ork threads with the idea to keep your trukks behind Battle Wagons for cover.

I think it is safe to add lone Deffkoptas and Mek Gunz to the consensus list of excellent choices since I have not heard anyone disagree. Lootaz, on the other hand, get more mixed reviews. I have never played any Lootaz so I don't have an opinion, but against my main opponent (Space Marines and Land Raiders), they don't seem like they would help much.

So if I had to summarize, the consensus top picks are:
- Warboss with Da Lukky Stikk and Klaw (bike or mega armor optional)
- Painboy
- Meganobz with transport
- Tankbustaz with transport
- Warbikes
- Lone Deffkoptas
- Mek Gunz

I think some combination of these units along with some mobz of boyz and maybe a unit or two of grotz (for objectives and extra CADs) would be a very solid list. A list of efficient units makes for a good starting point, but learning how to really play effectively with your army is just as important so I greatly appreciate those tips and tricks for deployment, advancing, reserves, where to position the character, target priority, etc. that folks have thrown out.

Thanks again for all the great discussion on here. I got beat in my last game by an unstoppable Land Raider Crusader. I just didn't have much in my army that could hurt it other than a few Power Klaws and it could lay down so many shots per turn that it could decimate my trukks and boyz before I could get to it. I'm currently painting up some Meganobz (one with Killsawz) and then I'll be starting on Tankbustas soon after that. Either of those units should be able to ruin that thing's day.

 Glitcha wrote:
Buzzgob's stompa

What is the appeal Buzzgob's Stompa exactly ?

Even at 400 points the Big Mek Stompa has always seemed kind of lack luster to me.

 koooaei wrote:
I've recently got 3 blackreach koptas and used them in a previous game as single squads. I must say they're really good. They fly around, grab points, annoy the opponent. And they're rokkit platforms that you can never have enough of. All in all, 2 koptas in single squads feel better than a unit of rokkit kommandoes for the same pt cost, unfortunately =(

Solo Koptas are the best unit in the codex IMO - if you have enough slots to run enough of them (ie are playing unbound). Except for maybe solo mek guns.

Outside of MSU shenanigans, I seriously can't believe that Mek Gunz batteries are getting such a cursory mention before people move onto Tankbustas, Bikers etc. 30pt plasma cannons with artillery toughness shenanigans and multiple wounds is a winner in my book. And the other ones look neat too

 Dakkamite wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've recently got 3 blackreach koptas and used them in a previous game as single squads. I must say they're really good. They fly around, grab points, annoy the opponent. And they're rokkit platforms that you can never have enough of. All in all, 2 koptas in single squads feel better than a unit of rokkit kommandoes for the same pt cost, unfortunately =(

Solo Koptas are the best unit in the codex IMO - if you have enough slots to run enough of them (ie are playing unbound). Except for maybe solo mek guns.

Outside of MSU shenanigans, I seriously can't believe that Mek Gunz batteries are getting such a cursory mention before people move onto Tankbustas, Bikers etc. 30pt plasma cannons with artillery toughness shenanigans and multiple wounds is a winner in my book. And the other ones look neat too

Now if only solo Killa-Kans were an efficient possibility.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've recently got 3 blackreach koptas and used them in a previous game as single squads. I must say they're really good. They fly around, grab points, annoy the opponent. And they're rokkit platforms that you can never have enough of. All in all, 2 koptas in single squads feel better than a unit of rokkit kommandoes for the same pt cost, unfortunately =(

Solo Koptas are the best unit in the codex IMO - if you have enough slots to run enough of them (ie are playing unbound). Except for maybe solo mek guns.

Outside of MSU shenanigans, I seriously can't believe that Mek Gunz batteries are getting such a cursory mention before people move onto Tankbustas, Bikers etc. 30pt plasma cannons with artillery toughness shenanigans and multiple wounds is a winner in my book. And the other ones look neat too

Now if only solo Killa-Kans were an efficient possibility.

They would if they had toughness value

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've recently got 3 blackreach koptas and used them in a previous game as single squads. I must say they're really good. They fly around, grab points, annoy the opponent. And they're rokkit platforms that you can never have enough of. All in all, 2 koptas in single squads feel better than a unit of rokkit kommandoes for the same pt cost, unfortunately =(

Solo Koptas are the best unit in the codex IMO - if you have enough slots to run enough of them (ie are playing unbound). Except for maybe solo mek guns.

Outside of MSU shenanigans, I seriously can't believe that Mek Gunz batteries are getting such a cursory mention before people move onto Tankbustas, Bikers etc. 30pt plasma cannons with artillery toughness shenanigans and multiple wounds is a winner in my book. And the other ones look neat too

Now if only solo Killa-Kans were an efficient possibility.

They would if they had toughness value

I don't know.

I find outside of Mek Gunz against shooting things with a toughness value tend to disappoint me.

It's one of the reasons I don't make use of Monstrous Creatures.

The Imperial Answer wrote:


I don't know.

I find outside of Mek Gunz against shooting things with a toughness value tend to disappoint me.

It's one of the reasons I don't make use of Monstrous Creatures.

Guess we run into different MC than

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:


I don't know.

I find outside of Mek Gunz against shooting things with a toughness value tend to disappoint me.

It's one of the reasons I don't make use of Monstrous Creatures.

Guess we run into different MC than

I've seen few yet that don't disappoint in close combat.

The Ork Squiggoth being one of them.

Would it have to be a monstrous creature? Couldn't it just be T7 like artillery or something?

can't we get a dataslate like the hellbrutes, where they can use cultists as throw-away 3+ saves?

Just imagine, you can field grots with the kanz who are literally used as grot shields! I kanz just scoop them up when under fire, toss them in the air and hope they catch some incoming plasma!

Speaking of Kans is it worth emailing GW about the Waaagh! Ghazghkull Dreadmob's restriction on having only 3 squads of 3 Kans on the off hand chance that you can include more than 3 in each squad ?

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Buzzgob's stompa

What is the appeal Buzzgob's Stompa exactly ?

Even at 400 points the Big Mek Stompa has always seemed kind of lack luster to me.

For me, it was the fact that at the event I was playing him in their was a cap of 610 for LoW. So a lot of people did not bring one. Which gave me an advantage. Plus with basically 3 D weaps it really put the pressure on. I did get the bad match up with the stompa. I had to play tyranids. No vehicles so the lifta dropa was useless. I was rolling pretty hot with the lifta dropa and gaze of mork. In one game, I got fire blood and killed the one unit that could actually hurt the stompa. After that my opponent gave up on killing the stompa and played defensively. Which did not go well for them and almost got them tabled.

Personally, I think the stompa lifta dropa from apoc book is better than the IA:8 version. IA version can't hit flyers. Apoc version can. I'll admit the lack of weapons is kind of an issue for me, but I think the 2 range D weapons fix that problem.

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Buzzgob's stompa

What is the appeal Buzzgob's Stompa exactly ?

Even at 400 points the Big Mek Stompa has always seemed kind of lack luster to me.

For me, it was the fact that at the event I was playing him in their was a cap of 610 for LoW. So a lot of people did not bring one. Which gave me an advantage. Plus with basically 3 D weaps it really put the pressure on. I did get the bad match up with the stompa. I had to play tyranids. No vehicles so the lifta dropa was useless. I was rolling pretty hot with the lifta dropa and gaze of mork. In one game, I got fire blood and killed the one unit that could actually hurt the stompa. After that my opponent gave up on killing the stompa and played defensively. Which did not go well for them and almost got them tabled.

Personally, I think the stompa lifta dropa from apoc book is better than the IA:8 version. IA version can't hit flyers. Apoc version can. I'll admit the lack of weapons is kind of an issue for me, but I think the 2 range D weapons fix that problem.

For 400 points it seems I could have a Klaw Stompa which seems almost certain to destroy anything it swings against in melee.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Buzzgob's stompa

What is the appeal Buzzgob's Stompa exactly ?

Even at 400 points the Big Mek Stompa has always seemed kind of lack luster to me.

For me, it was the fact that at the event I was playing him in their was a cap of 610 for LoW. So a lot of people did not bring one. Which gave me an advantage. Plus with basically 3 D weaps it really put the pressure on. I did get the bad match up with the stompa. I had to play tyranids. No vehicles so the lifta dropa was useless. I was rolling pretty hot with the lifta dropa and gaze of mork. In one game, I got fire blood and killed the one unit that could actually hurt the stompa. After that my opponent gave up on killing the stompa and played defensively. Which did not go well for them and almost got them tabled.

Personally, I think the stompa lifta dropa from apoc book is better than the IA:8 version. IA version can't hit flyers. Apoc version can. I'll admit the lack of weapons is kind of an issue for me, but I think the 2 range D weapons fix that problem.

For 400 points it seems I could have a Klaw Stompa which seems almost certain to destroy anything it swings against in melee.

Yes, but you would have no defensive system, no range weapons, and no turbo charger. I've played the klaw stompa before, turbo charger is a must. Plus there are something you just want to shoot off the table. When I ran my klaw stompa I gave him a deff arsenal and 2 big shootas for targeting.

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Buzzgob's stompa

What is the appeal Buzzgob's Stompa exactly ?

Even at 400 points the Big Mek Stompa has always seemed kind of lack luster to me.

For me, it was the fact that at the event I was playing him in their was a cap of 610 for LoW. So a lot of people did not bring one. Which gave me an advantage. Plus with basically 3 D weaps it really put the pressure on. I did get the bad match up with the stompa. I had to play tyranids. No vehicles so the lifta dropa was useless. I was rolling pretty hot with the lifta dropa and gaze of mork. In one game, I got fire blood and killed the one unit that could actually hurt the stompa. After that my opponent gave up on killing the stompa and played defensively. Which did not go well for them and almost got them tabled.

Personally, I think the stompa lifta dropa from apoc book is better than the IA:8 version. IA version can't hit flyers. Apoc version can. I'll admit the lack of weapons is kind of an issue for me, but I think the 2 range D weapons fix that problem.

For 400 points it seems I could have a Klaw Stompa which seems almost certain to destroy anything it swings against in melee.

Yes, but you would have no defensive system, no range weapons, and no turbo charger. I've played the klaw stompa before, turbo charger is a must. Plus there are something you just want to shoot off the table. When I ran my klaw stompa I gave him a deff arsenal and 2 big shootas for targeting.

Actually I agree about the Deff Arsenal.

Especially considering its D3 Supa Rokkits are now Large Blasts.

Also the Turbo Charger doesn't work anymore. The update for Super-Heavy Walker movement broke that.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Buzzgob's stompa

What is the appeal Buzzgob's Stompa exactly ?

Even at 400 points the Big Mek Stompa has always seemed kind of lack luster to me.

For me, it was the fact that at the event I was playing him in their was a cap of 610 for LoW. So a lot of people did not bring one. Which gave me an advantage. Plus with basically 3 D weaps it really put the pressure on. I did get the bad match up with the stompa. I had to play tyranids. No vehicles so the lifta dropa was useless. I was rolling pretty hot with the lifta dropa and gaze of mork. In one game, I got fire blood and killed the one unit that could actually hurt the stompa. After that my opponent gave up on killing the stompa and played defensively. Which did not go well for them and almost got them tabled.

Personally, I think the stompa lifta dropa from apoc book is better than the IA:8 version. IA version can't hit flyers. Apoc version can. I'll admit the lack of weapons is kind of an issue for me, but I think the 2 range D weapons fix that problem.

For 400 points it seems I could have a Klaw Stompa which seems almost certain to destroy anything it swings against in melee.

Yes, but you would have no defensive system, no range weapons, and no turbo charger. I've played the klaw stompa before, turbo charger is a must. Plus there are something you just want to shoot off the table. When I ran my klaw stompa I gave him a deff arsenal and 2 big shootas for targeting.

Actually I agree about the Deff Arsenal.

Especially considering its D3 Supa Rokkits are now Large Blasts.

Also the Turbo Charger doesn't work anymore. The update for Super-Heavy Walker movement broke that.

Can I ask why it isn't valid anymore? I understand that the rules are a bit dated but that Stompa is still a valid Lord of War choice and so would it's options if I'm not mistaken or it has been faq'd and I don't know. It might make it a little OP but since it's still valid then it's options would be valid as well.