I played a game vs Tau (I played orks we rolled eternal war, the emperors will, hammer and anvil) and I played my all around list ( I have crushed all the races with this list keep in mind)

Grukk

2 > Painboy

2> 20 boyz footslogging with nob BC

1> 15 boyz footslogging with nob BC

3> trukks 11 boyz with nob PK

2> 6 lootas

Grotz as well!

warbikes 6 with nobz pk

mek guns with 5 kannons

nobz in battle wagon

Tau
crisis suits with a Buffmander (Friend kept calling him that )

2 > hammerheads one with hero guy

2 > fire warriors with fireblade dude

2 > riptides

2 > Marklights

Now understand that I played knowing I was at a huge disadvantage but this considering im able to kick the crap out eldar and other races with this list without breaking a sweat so figured I would do alright! Long story short I killed 4 shield drones and did some wounds to the riptides! They on the other hand killed my whole army! Now my friend used to play orks before deciding he wanted to win every game he ever plays again (I say this with love) but we talked on how orks would beat tau and go over what would be good and what would be bad when I finally said "you know the problem I have is the fact I have to literally tailor a list just for one race." and its true! Most races are not put into such a disadvantage as orks vs tau. But tau are disgusting! (granted I had horrible rolls and everything when I would assault he would overwatch them all to death!)

Im fine with losing but killing 4 shield drones ONLY! And watching my whole army die was not fun at all! Best part is he though I was bringing a stompa so he was concerned with what he brought which made me want to spit fire!

Your thoughts?

You better not look at eldar rumors

Tau are not cheese, Riptides are.

I would love to play tau if my opponent did not use the riptide.

Tau arent too bad.
-Riptide spam is bad though.
-The supporting fire is rather cheesy though.
-Also, marker lights. Units should get cover saves against them. of course not armor saves, but cover saves actually make sense as the lil beam still has to actually hit the target and can be blocked by intervening objects Take a laser pointer and aim it at a target against the wall, them put your hand up to intersect the beam and although your hand is not harmed (hopefully lol), the beam will no longer be hitting the target on the wall.

Fix the latter two in the rules and fix the first in the players and they will be fine.

You brought a horde army against an army that is really good at killing hordes. The results of that battle were predictable before the first model was placed on the table.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tau are not cheese, Riptides are.

I would love to play tau if my opponent did not use the riptide.

I agree cause they are insane 2+ save is such crap for giant robot doom blasting machines! Especially for orks! (get in range with kustom blastas and spend crap tons of points for Mek Gunz with kustom mega blastas)

But that sucks cause I literally have to tailor a list for one god forsaken race!

Also 1d4chans deal about them on 7th doesn't give me comfort!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Tau arent too bad.
-Riptide spam is bad though.
-The supporting fire is rather cheesy though.
-Also, marker lights. Units should get cover saves against them. of course not armor saves, but cover saves actually make sense as the lil beam still has to actually hit the target and can be blocked by intervening objects Take a laser pointer and aim it at a target against the wall, them put your hand up to intersect the beam and although your hand is not harmed (hopefully lol), the beam will no longer be hitting the target on the wall.

Fix the latter two in the rules and fix the first in the players and they will be fine.

I agree The fact that marklights can take cover saves away really disappoints me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
You brought a horde army against an army that is really good at killing hordes. The results of that battle were predictable before the first model was placed on the table.

This then brings up the point that I am forced to make a list specially for tau so when I am at the tournament I have to go "wait let me bring out my tau list"

Also any ork players have a word about this?

Riptides are capable of getting a 3+ invulnerable saves and feel no pain.

Each vendetta hits with 2.25 lascannons each turn. Riptides are 7 toughness? So i need a 2 + to wound so I generally will always get my wounds. then he needs to made 3 up saves which will negate 1 or both of them. Then he as feel no pain.

Statistically with 5 vendettas I will get 11.25 hits, and 9.36 wounds a turn. After invulnerable saves I will make 3.11 wounds, and after feel no pain I will make 2.07 wounds. So with 5 vendettas firing at a riptide a turn, It will take 3 turn to kill a riptide.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Riptides are capable of getting a 3+ invulnerable saves and feel no pain.

Each vendetta hits with 2.25 lascannons each turn. Riptides are 7 toughness? So i need a 2 + to wound so I generally will always get my wounds. then he needs to made 3 up saves which will negate 1 or both of them. Then he as feel no pain.

Statistically with 5 vendettas I will get 11.25 hits, and 9.36 wounds a turn. After invulnerable saves I will make 3.11 wounds, and after feel no pain I will make 2.07 wounds. So with 5 vendettas firing at a riptide a turn, It will take 3 turn to kill a riptide.

Now do orks who have no lascannons.. the best thing they have are mek gunz kustom mega kannons which are str 8 ap 2! Now I know if my orks get in assault with a riptide it will eventually die but hammer and anvil and sitting on the end of the table opening some chardonnay and laughing as the orks trukks blow up left and right and ork boyz running to there dooms is just messed up! I told my friend " next time bring a squad of kroot so I can kill something!

Ork are bads

So, as a person who JUST RECENTLY made a "FETH the tau" post...

That's not a great all-round list, friend. You got a WHOLE lot of anti-infantry skew in there, and in particular nothing that can handle a really solid super-melee Death Star style list. Any kind of kiting-based shooting list is going to be able to pop your trukks and kite your footsloggers easily while your very light anti-armor weaponry isn't gonna hurt anything.

Easy suggestions to pump that list up:

-Swap Kannons for KMKs. 100% worth the cost. Also you get WAY more mileage out of boyz if you bring them as a Green Tide. You've got....let's see, 40, 55, 91... 91 boyz w Nobz already? Get a Warboss with Da Big Bosspole, one more boyz box to get 100, stick the Painboy in there and you've got a super solid unit that is True Fearless and you save the cost on your second Painboy and save an HQ slot.

Now you've got Trukks lying around yeah? That's perfect for MANz bombs, tankbustas (easy to scratch build with Boyz wielding Rokkits from the boyz kit), or even more boyz to run interference.


So, to sum up:

-your anti tank is too spread out among solo PKs. Id much rather see a MANz bomb or Tankbustas squad so you can focus fire instead if having to send your boyz against tanks just to use your three Klaw attacks

-a green tide is just awesome. 90 boyz, 10 Nobz, a Big Bosspole Boss and a Painboy is just a wall of death. This'll really help your army composition just due to point efficiency.

-I'd love to see KMKs. Honestly just call them KMKs don't have to change the model/spend money.

-Those trukks you now have lying around are perfect for MANz bombs and Tankbustas

tbh, Tau can be cheesy, but it depends how unlucky you are and what pts your'e playing. Small pts (1000pts or less) they aren't as good imo, yet they are good from 1000-2500 pts, but they're terrible at apoc without allies. It also depends on how many riptides they have.

overall, Tau are more cheesy than average, but they're not eldar.

Nah Tau aint cheese, they're just good against Orks. Every way Tau is meant to be played is to stay out of combat, while irks are meant to be in combat. You can't hurt us if you can't get to us.

Riptides are what are cheesy. I don't condone the use of riptide spam. I would only use 1 in a 2k point game.

I also play FSE, so I only use suits

the_scotsman wrote:
So, as a person who JUST RECENTLY made a "FETH the tau" post...

That's not a great all-round list, friend. You got a WHOLE lot of anti-infantry skew in there, and in particular nothing that can handle a really solid super-melee Death Star style list. Any kind of kiting-based shooting list is going to be able to pop your trukks and kite your footsloggers easily while your very light anti-armor weaponry isn't gonna hurt anything.

Easy suggestions to pump that list up:

-Swap Kannons for KMKs. 100% worth the cost. Also you get WAY more mileage out of boyz if you bring them as a Green Tide. You've got....let's see, 40, 55, 91... 91 boyz w Nobz already? Get a Warboss with Da Big Bosspole, one more boyz box to get 100, stick the Painboy in there and you've got a super solid unit that is True Fearless and you save the cost on your second Painboy and save an HQ slot.

Now you've got Trukks lying around yeah? That's perfect for MANz bombs, tankbustas (easy to scratch build with Boyz wielding Rokkits from the boyz kit), or even more boyz to run interference.


So, to sum up:

-your anti tank is too spread out among solo PKs. Id much rather see a MANz bomb or Tankbustas squad so you can focus fire instead if having to send your boyz against tanks just to use your three Klaw attacks

-a green tide is just awesome. 90 boyz, 10 Nobz, a Big Bosspole Boss and a Painboy is just a wall of death. This'll really help your army composition just due to point efficiency.

-I'd love to see KMKs. Honestly just call them KMKs don't have to change the model/spend money.

-Those trukks you now have lying around are perfect for MANz bombs and Tankbustas

Man I get that but.. my list has actually crushed most armies (chaos, space wolves, eldar, most space marines, nids, sister, imperial guard) Tankbustas I regret not bringing but still tankbusta with BS 2 is hoping you hit a riptide and watch it laugh as he rolls its saves. Kanz are meh IMO most of the time they are dying and making great cover for my boyz to hop around besides that I never wish to take them. Most of the time when I play I sprint my trukks forward with the battle wagon and WAAAGH! (I take the ork horde detachment which gives me WAAAGH ever turn after the first as long as I keep my boss alive.) Most the time I dont get FB but I always just over run them and the boyz in the back footslogging can grab objectives or finish off whats left. Granted I took Bikes because I knew I needed speed to get in assault with the Tau. And I have seen my mob of boyz with nobz kill of even the worst deathstars (Iron hand smash- F***er, jetbike spam with eldar, even thunderwolves) I like to think of myself as a "somewhat veteran player"

The other thing is why bother with artillery at range of 36" He laughed and told me "I am not going for your objective I am gonna sit right here and shoot your army to bitz" so my artillery slowly walked across the battle field and when ever i got in range he jet packed 6 inches away. He won cause of FB and slay the warlord he was kinda going for line breaker. But had no intention of actually getting my objective.

What I will say is if we played maelstrom I would kick the crap out of him cause he only had three mobile units me on the other hand could grab objectives left and right. I think because of the game type and the map that all the odds were against me which bums me out cause Instead of wasting three hours I just wanted to say "well from the map and game type you won there is literally nothing I can do might as well roll another mission!"

If you think that Tau are cheesy then you clearly haven't played against IoM, Daemons, Eldar or Necrons. All are FAR cheesier then Tau.

You think that Orks are bad? Orks at tournaments average out at 7th position whilst Tau are at 10th... So who's cheesier now?

This is another case of "waaah (or is it Waaagh? ) I lost a game against Tau therefore they're cheesy and OP!"

I've lost as many games against Orks as Tau as I have won so are Orks equally cheesy? I'd say yes due to cheap and easily spammable painboyz and that utterly broken lucky still!

SGTPozy wrote:
If you think that Tau are cheesy then you clearly haven't played against IoM, Daemons, Eldar or Necrons. All are FAR cheesier then Tau.

You think that Orks are bad? Orks at tournaments average out at 7th position whilst Tau are at 10th... So who's cheesier now?

This is another case of "waaah (or is it Waaagh? ) I lost a game against Tau therefore they're cheesy and OP!"

I've lost as many games against Orks as Tau as I have won so are Orks equally cheesy? I'd say yes due to cheap and easily spammable painboyz and that utterly broken lucky still!

Knew one of you would show up might as well link this : http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Tau%287E%29 so I am not the only one who think this. Plus I have stomped all over IoM and necrons even daemons. I have gone up against cheese list the thing you don't get my miss informed friend is I am fine with losing but if I don't kill any of the other army and literally lose half of mine I do have a problem! 4 shield drones all I killed! Now of course you call me a noob I am fine with that. Never said Orks were bad honestly most people do complain about my orks a lot!

All I am saying "friend" Is when after the game me and my friend (WHO USED TO PLAY ORKS!) were talking on how we could do alright and we both came to the conclusion that there is no hope for orks to win in this scenario.

Play Maelstrom to stop him taking a gunline. GW tries to force Tau to play gunline (just like GKs with alpha strike) but most Tau players don't do this (unlike GK players) as we cannot stay static with Maelstrom.

Footslogging Orks don't work well against any army as EVERY army can kill most of the unit off before you reach them.

Of course Orks won't win against a gunline (of any army; IG, Tau, Eldar etc.) Without loads of terrain (do you use loads of terrain?).

SGTPozy wrote:
Play Maelstrom to stop him taking a gunline. GW tries to force Tau to play gunline (just like GKs with alpha strike) but most Tau players don't do this (unlike GK players) as we cannot stay static with Maelstrom.

Footslogging Orks don't work well against any army as EVERY army can kill most of the unit off before you reach them.

Of course Orks won't win against a gunline (of any army; IG, Tau, Eldar etc.) Without loads of terrain (do you use loads of terrain?).

Gun lines were scary but the fact I can run and charge is a game changer letting my boyz get into assault quick. Tau though have support fire meaning everyone within 6 inches gets to overwatch with the squad which frankly is slowed! I could not make one assault every time he would shot my chargers off the map (reminds me of old KFF where if one model from a horde was within range of the KFF then the whole squad gets it.)

Terrain wise there was more terrain is this match then normal because he told me to to add lots of terrain to kill LOS did not matter! You have to understand that my friend WANTED to see me do good he brought a mean list cause I told him that my orks have been doing well and he hasn't played orks sense way back when so he wanted to see them do good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also totally agree with the idea of doing Maelstrom.

I think that lobbas would've helped you more than kannons to be honest as they could've (hopefully) broken down his fire warriors to reduce the overwatch.

Did you target his Riptides with your shooting?

SGTPozy wrote:
I think that lobbas would've helped you more than kannons to be honest as they could've (hopefully) broken down his fire warriors to reduce the overwatch.

Did you target his Riptides with your shooting?

The problem with fire warriors is they were waaay to far away not only did he have no LOS but i didn't as well my frag kannons could do nothing but move Kannons are IMO better then lobbas because they can switch from str 8 ap 3 (insta killing crisis suits) or frag rounds. My lootas shot the riptides and flicked off a couple wounds but that is it.

What would ever make you think you're the only one? Have you been on Dakka over the last few years? There's been a lot of gnashing about Tau, especially when combined with Eldar. They were the go-to broken army in 6th. They're a really powerful army, and Orks are considerably weaker unfortunately.

As soon as I saw this thread I knew Pozy would be here to play the victim.

But no- Tau are not "cheesy" inherently. It's more that Orks are a little on the weak side and it's harder to avoid the idea of simply marching down the board with them.

 Brother SRM wrote:
What would ever make you think you're the only one? Have you been on Dakka over the last few years? There's been a lot of gnashing about Tau, especially when combined with Eldar. They were the go-to broken army in 6th. They're a really powerful army, and Orks are considerably weaker unfortunately.

That is true and I knew that but still to be so thoroughly beaten really opened my eyes to how horrible crazy cheesy they can be

Tau are in the middle of the pack in terms of win percentage. Elder, Necrons, SM, and Imperial Knights are all way better.

To try and make something productive out of this thread... how would veteran Ork players suggest taking on a Riptide or three?

 Ignatius wrote:
As soon as I saw this thread I knew Pozy would be here to play the victim.

But no- Tau are not "cheesy" inherently. It's more that Orks are a little on the weak side and it's harder to avoid the idea of simply marching down the board with them.

Man not trying to make anyone into a "victim" pozy if anything was giving me ideas on how to combat the Tau. Well his first post was a little forward with the idea that im on a rant and just complaining to complain which granted I am doing. But I have played alot of 40k and never have I been so thoroughly smashed into pulp and was hoping a Ork player would be like "Oi Tau are just a bunch of grotz and Ize beat em all the time heres how... "

From there I would write down everthing that ork player said and worship him as a god.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
To try and make something productive out of this thread... how would veteran Ork players suggest taking on a Riptide or three?

Exactly!

Nope, i hate Tau. I would fight literally any other army over Tau.

 zombiekila707 wrote:

The problem with fire warriors is they were waaay to far away not only did he have no LOS but i didn't as well my frag kannons could do nothing but move Kannons are IMO better then lobbas because they can switch from str 8 ap 3 (insta killing crisis suits) or frag rounds. My lootas shot the riptides and flicked off a couple wounds but that is it.

I do agree that kannons are better against more units but lobbas IME beat Fire Warriors as Tau have awful leadership so if you can pin some that helps a fair bit.

I think that targeting the riptides was a mistake too since I find that its usually best to ignore them and just kill everything else.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nope, i hate Tau. I would fight literally any other army over Tau.

What about the new Eldar with massed S6 shooting in their troops slots and SD in their elite slots?

 Ignatius wrote:
As soon as I saw this thread I knew Pozy would be here to play the victim.
.

How was I "playing the victim"? I was defending Tau as they're complained about so much but tey're nowhere near as bad as many other armies (unless you allow them to play gunline by playing old-style missions).

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tau are not cheese, Riptides are.

I would love to play tau if my opponent did not use the riptide.

Pretty much this. Riptides are one of the most broken MCs in a sea of strong MCs.

 zombiekila707 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, as a person who JUST RECENTLY made a "FETH the tau" post...

That's not a great all-round list, friend. You got a WHOLE lot of anti-infantry skew in there, and in particular nothing that can handle a really solid super-melee Death Star style list. Any kind of kiting-based shooting list is going to be able to pop your trukks and kite your footsloggers easily while your very light anti-armor weaponry isn't gonna hurt anything.

Easy suggestions to pump that list up:

-Swap Kannons for KMKs. 100% worth the cost. Also you get WAY more mileage out of boyz if you bring them as a Green Tide. You've got....let's see, 40, 55, 91... 91 boyz w Nobz already? Get a Warboss with Da Big Bosspole, one more boyz box to get 100, stick the Painboy in there and you've got a super solid unit that is True Fearless and you save the cost on your second Painboy and save an HQ slot.

Now you've got Trukks lying around yeah? That's perfect for MANz bombs, tankbustas (easy to scratch build with Boyz wielding Rokkits from the boyz kit), or even more boyz to run interference.


So, to sum up:

-your anti tank is too spread out among solo PKs. Id much rather see a MANz bomb or Tankbustas squad so you can focus fire instead if having to send your boyz against tanks just to use your three Klaw attacks

-a green tide is just awesome. 90 boyz, 10 Nobz, a Big Bosspole Boss and a Painboy is just a wall of death. This'll really help your army composition just due to point efficiency.

-I'd love to see KMKs. Honestly just call them KMKs don't have to change the model/spend money.

-Those trukks you now have lying around are perfect for MANz bombs and Tankbustas

Man I get that but.. my list has actually crushed most armies (chaos, space wolves, eldar, most space marines, nids, sister, imperial guard) Tankbustas I regret not bringing but still tankbusta with BS 2 is hoping you hit a riptide and watch it laugh as he rolls its saves. Kanz are meh IMO most of the time they are dying and making great cover for my boyz to hop around besides that I never wish to take them. Most of the time when I play I sprint my trukks forward with the battle wagon and WAAAGH! (I take the ork horde detachment which gives me WAAAGH ever turn after the first as long as I keep my boss alive.) Most the time I dont get FB but I always just over run them and the boyz in the back footslogging can grab objectives or finish off whats left. Granted I took Bikes because I knew I needed speed to get in assault with the Tau. And I have seen my mob of boyz with nobz kill of even the worst deathstars (Iron hand smash- F***er, jetbike spam with eldar, even thunderwolves) I like to think of myself as a "somewhat veteran player"

The other thing is why bother with artillery at range of 36" He laughed and told me "I am not going for your objective I am gonna sit right here and shoot your army to bitz" so my artillery slowly walked across the battle field and when ever i got in range he jet packed 6 inches away. He won cause of FB and slay the warlord he was kinda going for line breaker. But had no intention of actually getting my objective.

What I will say is if we played maelstrom I would kick the crap out of him cause he only had three mobile units me on the other hand could grab objectives left and right. I think because of the game type and the map that all the odds were against me which bums me out cause Instead of wasting three hours I just wanted to say "well from the map and game type you won there is literally nothing I can do might as well roll another mission!"

Well, I pretty much always try to play maelstrom for that reason, I hate gunlines.

But a couple points:

1) Most tau stuff has a range of 36" other than the riptides. If your KMKs are exerting a 36" bubble ahead of your main army then they're more than doing their job keeping him from doing much damage to you. Also, remember you just need a model in Mega-Armor with the gunz to give them Slow and Purposeful and allow them to fire on the run. Also helps to have a model with a 2+ armor save standing out front with Majority T7.

2) Tankbustas are definitely not for riptides. The orky way to deal with riptides is charging with mobile units. Turbo boost a MANz bomb at a riptide turn 1 and it's kind of toast or at least tied up for the rest of the game. Tankbustas are great for dealing with Tau tanks though with Tank Hunters SR.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
As soon as I saw this thread I knew Pozy would be here to play the victim.
.

How was I "playing the victim"? I was defending Tau as they're complained about so much but tey're nowhere near as bad as many other armies (unless you allow them to play gunline by playing old-style missions).

Meh. You always seem to come into threads and loudly proclaim that Tau are complained about too much, or that they aren't as good as people say, and especially that the Imperium armies are "OMG too good". Your tone and verbiage just points to it often.

Which is okay, but I'll respectfully disagree.

Riptides will be one of the few things that scatter bikes will have a hard time killing. Of course, everything else will die miserably. But at least they'll always have their Riptides.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides will be one of the few things that scatter bikes will have a hard time killing. Of course, everything else will die miserably. But at least they'll always have their Riptides.

But then again, a unit of wraithguard will probably make short work of a Riptide.

OP hasn't played against Eldar recently... Makes Tau look like cuddly bears with nerf guns.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nope, i hate Tau. I would fight literally any other army over Tau.

Have you met Bob? He brings a Necron, decurion, wraith spam list everyday and laughs at you, your family, and all of your friends when you lose. I can whole heartedly tell you that you would fight anyone other than Bob even compared to Tau.

And are Tau cheese? No army is cheese. They just have some units that people like to abuse and if you are playing a kind person he will limit his use of those units.

Tau are ok. Not great, just gotta get into the gunline or ignore the tide and play to the mission.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tau are not cheese, Riptides are.

I would love to play tau if my opponent did not use the riptide.

Pretty much this. Riptides are one of the most broken MCs in a sea of strong MCs.

As a daemon player, I've never had a problem. Corner them, kill their markerlights and they fold like paper

Tau used to be full on cheese. Now they've mellowed out but they're still quite strong. Definitely stronger than Orks.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nope, i hate Tau. I would fight literally any other army over Tau.

What about the new Eldar with massed S6 shooting in their troops slots and SD in their elite slots?

Eh, that's a tough call. I'd say I'd rather fight Eldar, just because I can't even stand to look at Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nope, i hate Tau. I would fight literally any other army over Tau.

Have you met Bob? He brings a Necron, decurion, wraith spam list everyday and laughs at you, your family, and all of your friends when you lose. I can whole heartedly tell you that you would fight anyone other than Bob even compared to Tau.

And are Tau cheese? No army is cheese. They just have some units that people like to abuse and if you are playing a kind person he will limit his use of those units.

Yeah, I play a Necron player quite a lot. Don't get me wrong, the new Necron are super annoying, but most of their stuff is 24" range, meaning I can skirt around it, or they want ot get into CC, in which I can play around them. Tau are average range 36". Plus Necrons can't give Ignores Cover to everything.

As a Tau player I am happy with Markerlights being negated by cover saves just as soon as Markerlights cause wounds that can be negated.

If you want cover to work against the Markerlights are as they work now, you'll have to change the entire way cover works in this game.

Tau are not cheese in the slightest, they took a hard hit in power when 7th edition came out. The Riptide spam list is strong but its not OP, Tau in general are a tough matchup for Orks but there are ways to deal with them and there are several threads on here discussing this very topic.

 Ignatius wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
As soon as I saw this thread I knew Pozy would be here to play the victim.
.

How was I "playing the victim"? I was defending Tau as they're complained about so much but tey're nowhere near as bad as many other armies (unless you allow them to play gunline by playing old-style missions).

Meh. You always seem to come into threads and loudly proclaim that Tau are complained about too much, or that they aren't as good as people say, and especially that the Imperium armies are "OMG too good". Your tone and verbiage just points to it often.

Which is okay, but I'll respectfully disagree.

Because it's true. Tau Do get unproportional complaints claiming them to be OP, while they don't see heavy play on turny level, and rarely get a single top10 spot.

I will be the last to claim tau are weak. But they are nowhere near what some people on dakka make of them.

It also doesn't help that Tau used to get a lot of complaints about being "OP" in the past when they were anything but. 4th edition Fish of Fury was annoying, that was about as bad as it ever got. They were mediocre in 3rd and almost unplayable in 5th. It was mainly just whining and crying because they didn't like the JSJ mechanic or the fact that fire warriors had a stronger gun than the mighty bolter.

Even now it's mostly two or three things propping up the rest of the book. The riptide, Supporting Fire, the cheapness of Ignores Cover, and the HYMP are mainly what make them so hard to deal with. Some wargear also needs to be upped in price, the first and most obvious one being EWO. I don't really feel like Tau are that hard to fix.

Also, anyone claiming that Tau are worse than the new Eldar is just straight-up lying. Unless you've seen leaks of a new Tau codex or something.

We Tau players just have to accept that Tau are just a hated race. It's all because we don't want to get into HtH at all.
All other races do.

If we constantly advanced and shot, then assaulted we wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. It's the reason Eldar and Necrons (both of who are far more OP) are allowed to be.

It's like HtH is a pre requisite to 40k because it's a 'phase'

 Boniface wrote:
We Tau players just have to accept that Tau are just a hated race. It's all because we don't want to get into HtH at all.
All other races do.

If we constantly advanced and shot, then assaulted we wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. It's the reason Eldar and Necrons (both of who are far more OP) are allowed to be.

It's like HtH is a pre requisite to 40k because it's a 'phase'

My biggest thing against Tau is its hard to use their range to your advantage. Outside of Drop Pods, most targets are always in range because Tau guns are on average 36". Necrons are insanely tough to kill, but most of their stuff is limited to 24"

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Boniface wrote:
We Tau players just have to accept that Tau are just a hated race. It's all because we don't want to get into HtH at all.
All other races do.

If we constantly advanced and shot, then assaulted we wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. It's the reason Eldar and Necrons (both of who are far more OP) are allowed to be.

It's like HtH is a pre requisite to 40k because it's a 'phase'

My biggest thing against Tau is its hard to use their range to your advantage. Outside of Drop Pods, most targets are always in range because Tau guns are on average 36". Necrons are insanely tough to kill, but most of their stuff is limited to 24"

What else do we have?

Necrons have 5+++ permanently.
Eldar have Pseudo rending and run shoot.

Tau fold in combat like no other race in the game. But we're a shooting army.
We should have good guns.

 Boniface wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Boniface wrote:
We Tau players just have to accept that Tau are just a hated race. It's all because we don't want to get into HtH at all.
All other races do.

If we constantly advanced and shot, then assaulted we wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. It's the reason Eldar and Necrons (both of who are far more OP) are allowed to be.

It's like HtH is a pre requisite to 40k because it's a 'phase'

My biggest thing against Tau is its hard to use their range to your advantage. Outside of Drop Pods, most targets are always in range because Tau guns are on average 36". Necrons are insanely tough to kill, but most of their stuff is limited to 24"

What else do we have?

Necrons have 5+++ permanently.
Eldar have Pseudo rending and run shoot.

Tau fold in combat like no other race in the game. But we're a shooting army.
We should have good guns.

Most necron armies have a 4+++ permanently, with rerolling 1's within 12 inches of overlord lol

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Boniface wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Boniface wrote:
We Tau players just have to accept that Tau are just a hated race. It's all because we don't want to get into HtH at all.
All other races do.

If we constantly advanced and shot, then assaulted we wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. It's the reason Eldar and Necrons (both of who are far more OP) are allowed to be.

It's like HtH is a pre requisite to 40k because it's a 'phase'

My biggest thing against Tau is its hard to use their range to your advantage. Outside of Drop Pods, most targets are always in range because Tau guns are on average 36". Necrons are insanely tough to kill, but most of their stuff is limited to 24"

What else do we have?

Necrons have 5+++ permanently.
Eldar have Pseudo rending and run shoot.

Tau fold in combat like no other race in the game. But we're a shooting army.
We should have good guns.

Most necron armies have a 4+++ permanently, with rerolling 1's within 12 inches of overlord lol

Well I was ignoring that.
My point was people complain about Tau weapons, but Tau are a shooting army with no access to HtH.
They are the single most complained about army in the game.

Compared to Eldar having all manner of ridiculous stuff.
Necrons having loads of powerful stuff and being very resilient.
Guard having walls of tanks
Marines having AP2 salvo 3 guns on bikes.
Daemons having the ability to summon potentially limitless models.

What do Tau really have?
Slightly longer ranger standard guns
Markerlights (not new but improved)
The riptide (which is a bit more powerful than its cost, but was a new model so had to be all powerful)
Other than these what is so special about them?

"They are the single most complained about army in the game. "

That's absolutely false. Eldar have been the #1 hated on army since their 6th ed codex.

The Riptide is very much OP, not just "a bit" more powerful than its cost. But the rest of the list is very manageable, especially compared to Eldar or Gravstar.

Martel732 wrote:
"They are the single most complained about army in the game. "

That's absolutely false. Eldar have been the #1 hated on army since their 6th ed codex.

The Riptide is very much OP, not just "a bit" more powerful than its cost. But the rest of the list is very manageable, especially compared to Eldar or Gravstar.

Riptide is only OP because the Ion Accelerator is way too cheap. Without the Ion Accelerator it's still tough but has nowhere near the lethality when it can't drop AP2 pie plates.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"They are the single most complained about army in the game. "

That's absolutely false. Eldar have been the #1 hated on army since their 6th ed codex.

The Riptide is very much OP, not just "a bit" more powerful than its cost. But the rest of the list is very manageable, especially compared to Eldar or Gravstar.

Riptide is only OP because the Ion Accelerator is way too cheap. Without the Ion Accelerator it's still tough but has nowhere near the lethality when it can't drop AP2 pie plates.

The Riptide chassis is too durable for its cost/effective range. The thing never gets close, which means 80% of the weapons that can hurt it can't reach. It's basically immortal in about half the games it participates in. The brokeness of the ion accelerator stacks on top of the chassis being broken to begin with.

It's anecdotal but logical: I've killed well over 20 dreadknights since the GK codex came out. I've killed about 3 Riptides, despite playing Tau many more times. They. Don't. Die.

When I last played the game in 6E, Tau were a newb stomper army, but otherwise a fairly middle-tier army that usually needed allies to cover up bad match-ups. I don't really see an issue with them unless there's something in 7E that I'm missing so heinously that is makes them overpowered.

 TheKbob wrote:
When I last played the game in 6E, Tau were a newb stomper army, but otherwise a fairly middle-tier army that usually needed allies to cover up bad match-ups. I don't really see an issue with them unless there's something in 7E that I'm missing so heinously that is makes them overpowered.

It's just annoying having to play AROUND Riptides, since there is no efficient way to engage them at 60".

Martel732 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
When I last played the game in 6E, Tau were a newb stomper army, but otherwise a fairly middle-tier army that usually needed allies to cover up bad match-ups. I don't really see an issue with them unless there's something in 7E that I'm missing so heinously that is makes them overpowered.

It's just annoying having to play AROUND Riptides, since there is no efficient way to engage them at 60".

Yea, I see that. I'm sure every army has a means of stopping it or doing damage to them. They're tough, but they're firepower was never "OMG" to me. I took them down with my SoB/Inq/IG army I had in 6E, but then again Exorcists scare them real bad.

There's literally not a thing in the BA codex that Riptides care about. They can outshoot/outrun every unit in the book.

I've seen people complaining more about Tau's fluff than mechanics.

"They don't belong to the scenario!"
"They're anime fan communists!"
"They're too nice! I want muh grimderp!"

 Vector Strike wrote:
I've seen people complaining more about Tau's fluff than mechanics.

"They don't belong to the scenario!"
"They're anime fan communists!"
"They're too nice! I want muh grimderp!"

The fluff is fine. In fact, I like their fluff better than the IoM. As in Imperium of Morons. There is no way they would have lasted from 30K to 40K set up as they are portrayed.

Martel732 wrote:
There's literally not a thing in the BA codex that Riptides care about. They can outshoot/outrun every unit in the book.

Bloodstrike missiles. Deep striking, combat squad melta/plasma teams. Allies, allies everywhere...

The game is broken if you mono-dex (save the broken dexes). So you either live with that or you keep losing to Tau, I suppose. Get some SoB. Scouting Meltaguns and Exorcists will make the Tau player think twice.

 TheKbob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's literally not a thing in the BA codex that Riptides care about. They can outshoot/outrun every unit in the book.

Bloodstrike missiles. Deep striking, combat squad melta/plasma teams. Allies, allies everywhere...

The game is broken if you mono-dex (save the broken dexes). So you either live with that or you keep losing to Tau, I suppose. Get some SoB. Scouting Meltaguns and Exorcists will make the Tau player think twice.

The game being broken for mono-dex is an excellent argument for not playing at all.

For the record, the BA can't bring any of those weapons systems in sufficient quantity to mathematically threaten a Riptide. AT least, not without tailoring.

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"They are the single most complained about army in the game. "

That's absolutely false. Eldar have been the #1 hated on army since their 6th ed codex.

The Riptide is very much OP, not just "a bit" more powerful than its cost. But the rest of the list is very manageable, especially compared to Eldar or Gravstar.

Riptide is only OP because the Ion Accelerator is way too cheap. Without the Ion Accelerator it's still tough but has nowhere near the lethality when it can't drop AP2 pie plates.

The Riptide chassis is too durable for its cost/effective range. The thing never gets close, which means 80% of the weapons that can hurt it can't reach. It's basically immortal in about half the games it participates in. The brokeness of the ion accelerator stacks on top of the chassis being broken to begin with.

It's anecdotal but logical: I've killed well over 20 dreadknights since the GK codex came out. I've killed about 3 Riptides, despite playing Tau many more times. They. Don't. Die.

The burst cannon has a 36" range. On top of a 6" move that gives it an effective range of 42". From 36" range it can then fall back a maximum of 12" using its thrust move normally or 18" if nova charging it. On average it will fall back 7" on a normal move and either 10" or 11" on a nova thrust. Both times it fails to exceed 48" distance from the target, so it can still be in range of heavy weapons such as Lascannons.

Now, the Burst Cannon when not nova charged is Heavy 8 S6 AP4. The Riptide is, without markerlight support, BS3. This means that on average a non-nova charged burst cannon will cause 1 wound to an MEQ a turn.

When Nova charged it is Heavy 12 S6 AP4 Rending and Gets Hot. This means that, again on average, the Riptide will: Inflict 2 gets hot wounds on itself which it will likely save from its armour, miss with 4 other shots and hit with the remaining 6. Out of those 6: 1 will rend and 4 will wound normally. Of the four that wound normally an MEQ will save 2/3rds of the time. So, in total, the Nova charged burst cannon will cause 2.3 wounds per turn to MEQs.

Now, the Riptide has a 1/3 chance of failing its Nova-charge. So if we assume a 6 turn game, 4 of those turns will be nova charged and 2 will not. So, assuming it gets to shoot on every turn, a Burst Cannon Riptide will kill 11.3 MEQs with its main gun. SMS would add another 2.6 wounds over the whole game, Plasma another 2.5 at long range or 5 in rapid fire range, Fusion another 2.5.

So the maximum damage it will inflict, on average, is 16 MEQs and to do that it has to be within 12" of its target in every one of its shooting phases and only ever nova charge to make use of the nova charged burst cannon profile, which means no 3D6" thrust move and no 3++. Sure you may not kill it in the game as it is still quite tough but its offensive power is hugely reduced by not having the ion accelerator. Which makes ignoring it a perfectly viable option.

And if you must kill it, with a 5++ 5+ FNP (which brings it up to 215 points), it'll take 14 lascannon/melta hits to bring down or 17 plasma gun hits.

Martel732 wrote:

The game being broken for mono-dex is an excellent argument for not playing at all.

For the record, the BA can't bring any of those weapons systems in sufficient quantity to mathematically threaten a Riptide. AT least, not without tailoring.

I honestly believe a lot of 40ks woes could be fixed with capping games at 1000-1250 points, add character restrictions (Unique guys can only be in one, not both, lists), and move to a two list format a la Warmachine. It solves bad match up issues, allows you to play with lots of different toys, and it punishes skew lists hard. Add in scenarios that don't "turn limit" the game, but making it winnable when X victory points are achieved and boom, much better game.

If you feel fed up, pitch that. Worse case scenario is that it doesn't work, you at least tried to do something that didn't involve making people shelve their toys.

The heavy burst cannon is not that great, but the chasis itself is crazy good for the cost. The chasis needs to be a bit more expensive, and the IA a LOT more expensive.

Of course, looking at scatbikes, maybe not. Although it's interesting that the Riptide is one of the few units that scatbikes will struggle to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The game being broken for mono-dex is an excellent argument for not playing at all.

For the record, the BA can't bring any of those weapons systems in sufficient quantity to mathematically threaten a Riptide. AT least, not without tailoring.

I honestly believe a lot of 40ks woes could be fixed with capping games at 1000-1250 points, add character restrictions (Unique guys can only be in one, not both, lists), and move to a two list format a la Warmachine. It solves bad match up issues, allows you to play with lots of different toys, and it punishes skew lists hard. Add in scenarios that don't "turn limit" the game, but making it winnable when X victory points are achieved and boom, much better game.

If you feel fed up, pitch that. Worse case scenario is that it doesn't work, you at least tried to do something that didn't involve making people shelve their toys.

I have not much empathy for forcing people to shelve toys when GW has shelved 2/3 of the BA units by making them complete gak.

Martel732 wrote:


I have not much empathy for forcing people to shelve toys when GW has shelved 2/3 of the BA units by making them complete gak.

Sounds like you shouldn't take out on your opponents, peers, and friends what GW does to you. If you don't like it, why would they? Better yet, I agree, play something else.

 TheKbob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I have not much empathy for forcing people to shelve toys when GW has shelved 2/3 of the BA units by making them complete gak.

Sounds like you shouldn't take out on your opponents, peers, and friends what GW does to you. If you don't like it, why would they? Better yet, I agree, play something else.

Where's the line between taking it out on another list and leveling the playing field? The Riptide is fair against Eldar and Daemons, but certainly not against BA or DA.

Typical degradation into Riptide hate.

Ignore the riptide's existence momentarily.
Tau have always been the most disliked race in the game.
The Riptide is unfortunately a vessel for the hate.

 Boniface wrote:
Typical degradation into Riptide hate.

Ignore the riptide's existence momentarily.
Tau have always been the most disliked race in the game.
The Riptide is unfortunately a vessel for the hate.

I never disliked the Tau. I still don't. Only the Riptide, really. People usually don't like models that can't be removed by more lascannon shots than a typical marine list gets over the course of an entire game. Honestly, it's gotten to the point where I hate the Astartes more than any other faction, because of their insane background fluff.

Martel732 wrote:


Where's the line between taking it out on another list and leveling the playing field? The Riptide is fair against Eldar and Daemons, but certainly not against BA or DA.

It's the game designers problem to level the playing field, not the players. Play a different game if that's big of an issue.

Ow look, its this thread again. I play against my brothers orks regularly, and I have a hard time beating him, on average I think he is even ahead in our games with wins (granted we only play 1000 points and no riptide). But really, if you only killed 4 shield drones in an entire game, you are either lying, or just plain bad.

If he goes first yea the alpha strike will hurt, but good deployment can negate a lot. If you go first, he shouldn't have many markerlights left, and your vehicles will already be in his face. Kannons wrecks tau infantry with blasts, or crisis suits with insta death, even only killing shield drones will often make them run off the board due to LD fails.

Yea sometimes your opponents dice are on fire and you are crippled by the end of turn 1, it has happened to me, sometimes its the other way around. Sometimes you make some mistakes which cost you a game, gak happens.

Tau should be beating Orks handily.

Here we go again another hate rant against the Riptide led by Martel, sorry it is not overpowered no matter how much you wish it to be. The only thing that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be perfectly fine. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you hate your BA's and think they completely suck, if thats the case get a new army already and stop making claims that other armies or units should be nerfed to the point so you can have an easy win.

Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

 Rippy wrote:
Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

Lol the BA player at our store wins all the time and is one of the better players here, which is what makes his complaints interesting to say the least. If responding with solid facts and ideas is worn and rehashed then sure ill keep doing it, typical IoM bias haters going to hate!

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

Lol the BA player at our store wins all the time and is one of the better players here, which is what makes his complaints interesting to say the least. If responding with solid facts and ideas is worn and rehashed then sure ill keep doing it, typical IoM bias haters going to hate!

#Facts
Your facts of one BA player doing well in a store is NOT a representative of the wider community buddy.

 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go again another hate rant against the Riptide led by Martel, sorry it is not overpowered no matter how much you wish it to be. The only thing that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be perfectly fine. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you hate your BA's and think they completely suck, if thats the case get a new army already and stop making claims that other armies or units should be nerfed to the point so you can have an easy win.

The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

Then according to your logic the Dreadknight is completely undercosted as well, way to durable chassis with access to Psychic Powers, much better in CC and since you are bringing support units into this argument not to mention it can be augmented and supported by ANY other IoM army including Knights, Grav Cents in Drop Pods ect. And as I have said multiple times I agree the Ion Accelerator needs a points boost but in no way shape or form does it need to be nerfed like you guys are claiming. Also the thrust move is a random 2d6 so its not a sure thing, unlike the Dreadknight/

And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

 gmaleron wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

Then according to your logic the Dreadknight is completely undercosted as well, way to durable chassis with access to Psychic Powers, much better in CC and since you are bringing support units into this argument not to mention it can be augmented and supported by ANY other IoM army including Knights, Grav Cents in Drop Pods ect. And as I have said multiple times I agree the Ion Accelerator needs a points boost but in no way shape or form does it need to be nerfed like you guys are claiming. Also the thrust move is a random 2d6 so its not a sure thing, unlike the Dreadknight/

And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

Here is why the Dreadknight isn't too durable.

Its the simple reason that it operates in the ideal range of every weapon that is perfect for killing it. While the Riptide operates at over twice the range of most weapons that are ideal for killing it, and it has the mobility to stay that way. Meanwhile the Dreadknight has to jump into danger to do its thing.

Can be easily negated because not only can you take multiples of them at a much cheaper points cost and smart movement with its "shunt" move but the simple fact you can take ANY other Imperial army to support it. Watching x3 Dreadknights shunt forward combined with Drop Pods, Bikes and other nasty stuff works really well especially against Tau. Compared to the Riptide when it comes to base stats it only has 1 less wound and is 40 points cheaper.

 gmaleron wrote:
Can be easily negated because not only can you take multiples of them at a much cheaper points cost and smart movement with its "shunt" move but the simple fact you can take ANY other Imperial army to support it. Watching x3 Dreadknights shunt forward combined with Drop Pods, Bikes and other nasty stuff works really well especially against Tau. Compared to the Riptide when it comes to base stats it only has 1 less wound and is 40 points cheaper.

I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

 Rippy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

Lol the BA player at our store wins all the time and is one of the better players here, which is what makes his complaints interesting to say the least. If responding with solid facts and ideas is worn and rehashed then sure ill keep doing it, typical IoM bias haters going to hate!

#Facts
Your facts of one BA player doing well in a store is NOT a representative of the wider community buddy.

I'd probably table the guy using Tau as well. Whenever I hear about BA players tearing it up, there's always a caveat or a flaw or inferior competition.

And as always, my goal is a BALANCED experience, not an easy win. There are no easy wins for BA anyway, not even Orks or DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Can be easily negated because not only can you take multiples of them at a much cheaper points cost and smart movement with its "shunt" move but the simple fact you can take ANY other Imperial army to support it. Watching x3 Dreadknights shunt forward combined with Drop Pods, Bikes and other nasty stuff works really well especially against Tau. Compared to the Riptide when it comes to base stats it only has 1 less wound and is 40 points cheaper.

I can kill Dreadknights easily with BA. Even three or four. In fact, they voluntarily come into my kill zone! Of their own free accord! How novel! Why can't your Tau kill them? Answer: you can, because you shoot even better and have a far superior codex. Now who is complaining?

So your excuse for your struggles against Tau is that other BA players who have success are playing inferior competition when you have no idea how competitive my store actually is or its a flaw because...what you are the best BA player in the game and everyone else only wins by flukes? Makes alot of sense....

And yeah because guess what the IoM including Blood Angels have access to quite a bit of weaponry and tools to deal with MC's imagine that. But then again you seem to always play on infinitely large tables with little to no terrain but then again it couldnt be your tactics or army list, of course not.

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I'll take on your BA "expert" any time, with any codex. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?Jump pack across the board into a huge kill zone? Get in their cracker box tanks and drive into a kill zone? Go descent of angels and deep strike into a kill zone?

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

I don't use allies. I'm not giving GW the $$ for those. I'm talking pure BA here. I wasn't talking about IoM, because C:SM does have solutions. BA do not. Why do Eldar players get to field awesome lists from a single codex but DA and BA players are expected to own a fething library?

And having to trot out an invisible grav star to hang with the Riptide is not furthering your premise.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

I don't use allies. I'm not giving GW the $$ for those. I'm talking pure BA here. I wasn't talking about IoM, because C:SM does have solutions. BA do not. Why do Eldar players get to field awesome lists from a single codex but DA and BA players are expected to own a fething library?

Then that is your choice, just because you want to use mono BA does make other peoples armies or units "OP" just because you struggle with them. There are solutions, especially in a competitive setting that can be solved with Allies and if you are choosing not to then that is your fault not your opponents.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

I don't use allies. I'm not giving GW the $$ for those. I'm talking pure BA here. I wasn't talking about IoM, because C:SM does have solutions. BA do not.

Then that is your choice, just because you want to use mono BA does make other peoples armies or units "OP" just because you struggle with them. There are solutions, especially in a competitive setting that can be solved with Allies and if you are choosing not to then that is your fault not your opponents.

Again, why do the Eldar get to play from a single codex and dominate? Or hell, even C:SM? Tiggy star works just fine. The fact that you are appealing to allies just furthers the idea that BA are inferior to Tau by a substantial margin.

The Eldar book just got redone and the Dark Angels and Space Marines will be coming up soon later as it appears they are redoing every book that came out in 6th. I do not work for GW so I cannot explain that reasoning...wait I can they want you to spend $$ because IoM armies are the most popular? Its not that far fetched nor the fault of the players who want to play Eldar, you chose BA so you cant blame Eldar players for having access to one good book, you chose the army you play with not them.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I thought you said Riptide wasn't OP though?

 gmaleron wrote:
The Eldar book just got redone and the Dark Angels and Space Marines will be coming up soon later as it appears they are redoing every book that came out in 6th. I do not work for GW so I cannot explain that reasoning...wait I can they want you to spend $$ because IoM armies are the most popular? Its not that far fetched nor the fault of the players who want to play Eldar, you chose BA so you cant blame Eldar players for having access to one good book, you chose the army you play with not them.

Blaming the victim. Awesome.

 Rippy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I thought you said Riptide wasn't OP though?

It isnt, however plenty of people have an opinion that it is, just like other people have opinions that IoM units are OP and likewise they are defended that they are not. Not here trying to change anyones opinion they have a right to think what they want, however I feel that it is a gross simplification to call a unit "OP" when it is being made a bigger bogeyman then it actually is.

Give me an IoM unit that you consider OP. Let's see how many we agree on. I'll give you gravstars for free. I'm not some IoM homer. In fact, I really hate the Astartes at this point. The whole concept is pretty stupid.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I thought you said Riptide wasn't OP though?

It isnt, however plenty of people have an opinion that it is, just like other people have opinions that IoM units are OP and likewise they are defended that they are not.

We are not talking about other factions OP units. We are talking about your denial of an obviously OP unit.

Just because I do not feel the Riptide is OP does not make me "in denial" as you so claim. Where I am not trying to force my opinion down your throat you are attempting to do the same and its coming off really childish. I can agree the Riptide is strong and a good unit but it is nowhere near the levels of "OP" as you so claim.

And to be honest I dont look at an army and say "that unit is OP" because I feel that everyone has a right to play the game the way they want to and as long as you are skilled with your own army you have a way to counter it, maybe not effectively as you want but thats the game of 40k today, its rock paper scissors. That being said I only ever ask if they are bringing something Competitive or Fluffy so I can build a list accordingly to have the most fun with my opponent. The Adamantium Lance formation for Imperial Knights is rather strong for one but I wont call it OP, just means I have to find a way to deal with it to the best I can if I come across it.

 gmaleron wrote:
Just because I do not feel the Riptide is OP does not make me "in denial" as you so claim. Where I am not trying to force my opinion down your throat you are attempting to do the same and its coming off really childish. I can agree the Riptide is strong and a good unit but it is nowhere near the levels of "OP" as you so claim.

And to be honest I dont look at an army and say "that unit is OP" because I feel that everyone has a right to play the game the way they want to. That being said I only ever ask if they are bringing something Competitive or Fluffy so I can build a list accordingly to have the most fun with my opponent. The Adamantium Lance formation for Imperial Knights is rather strong for one but I wont call it OP, just means I have to find a way to deal with it to the best I can if I come across it.

I don't know why people like crushing others who have been victimized by GW's carelessness. I have BLIND opponents. I don't get a discussion.

Guys, we've been doing this dance a long time ago. No side will give in to the other one. Can we call it a day and move on? This kind of thread serve no purpose but to circular arguments.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Guys, we've been doing this dance a long time ago. No side will give in to the other one. Can we call it a day and move on? This kind of thread serve no purpose but to circular arguments.

No one made you open this thread. Just dont go in to it.

We all know the XV104,XV107, and XV109, all laugh are your feeble attempts to overcome them.

NauticalKendall wrote:
We all know the XV104,XV107, and XV109, all laugh are your feeble attempts to overcome them.

I like the Tau just the way they are. I also have no problem with the Riptide both as a player and as an opponent. I just have a hard time finding something to hate about a model that expensive that is only going to shoot one pie plate a turn. Especially since buffmanders can no longer help them and once all the markerlights are removed its no more dangerous than anything armed with a battle cannon pump out and heck you can field a hell of a lot more battle cannons for the same point cost.

I have found that a Riptides biggest advantage is the fear factor. People get so unnerved by them that their very presense invokes a lot more bad target choices than would otherwise be present.

Sure Riptides are good but OP? No way. How can they be considered OP with the IoM cherry picking of today, the meta-changing Skitarii, the entire GK codex , Eldar, Necrons, Daemons, Imperial Knights, ForgeWorld and formations?

Evidence of this is that Blood Angels (an army that some may consider to be 'bad') comes in at an average higher position at tournaments than Tau... So tell me again how the Riptide is OP?

Riptides need support to be powerful, otherwise they're just a good unit, unlike Dreadknights who need no support as they can do anything and everything themselves.

With support they're good. But guess what? So are IoM units such as an invisible Dreadknight with prescience and a 4++... But that's totally fine because it's IoM, right?... Right?

Anyway, there's one OP unit among the Tau and their Battle Bothers. How many are there for other armies?
Daemons have Nurgle Princes with the Black Mace, they have Be'lakor, they have summoning spam, they have screamer star and they have hounds.
IoM have Draigo, Tiggy, Centurions, Drop Pods, Imperial Knights, Dreadknights, tonnes of Forge World cheese.

You know what I might conceed the point here. I think the Riptide is a tough son of a bitch.

And looking at options it isn't easy to counter without spending more than double the number of points.

I hardly think it's the worse offender in the game but it's more challenging because of its range.

I don't think it's infallible though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides will be one of the few things that scatter bikes will have a hard time killing. Of course, everything else will die miserably. But at least they'll always have their Riptides.

On this. I'm curious to see how one holds up.

Let's assume a 10 man squad 270 points.
40 shots.
26.4 hit
13.2 wound
10.96 saves
So 2-3 wounds taken on average
If the riptide has FNP it might save another 0.38 wounds.

I think the math is right but feel free to correct me.

I think I'd use shuriken jetbikes personally
30 shots
20 hit
10 wound, 1-2 will be rending
6-7 saves in 2+ = 1-2 wounds
1 save on 5++ maybe
3 wounds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I take it all back. A Riptide isn't OP. Eldar have the monopoly on that.

 gmaleron wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

*Broken logic about Dreadknights being OP. Utterly laughable.*

And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

>mfw I don't play IoM

Nice, resorting to personal attacks because you know you can't win the argument. That means the 'Tide's still OP and I win, right? Cool.

Though at this stage, I think we need tiers of OP: Balanced, OP, Eldar.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.
Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.
Love, a Tau and FSE player.
Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

*Broken logic about Dreadknights being OP. Utterly laughable.*
And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

>mfw I don't play IoM
Nice, resorting to personal attacks because you know you can't win the argument. That means the 'Tide's still OP and I win, right? Cool.
Though at this stage, I think we need tiers of OP: Balanced, OP, Eldar.

Aw cute you had to edit my post because you couldn't bear to see that I was listing the facts , hmm interesting. And I didn't personally attack anyone, I pointed out your behavior why are you getting so sensitive about the subject? And wow "I win" really mature, your logic is astounding especially since you present no argument and your counter to mine was to hide what I wrote and leave a snarky comment? Only thing broken is your idea of whats OP in this game and if anything is laughable that is, keep on raging!

 gmaleron wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.
Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.
Love, a Tau and FSE player.
Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

*Broken logic about Dreadknights being OP. Utterly laughable.*
And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

>mfw I don't play IoM
Nice, resorting to personal attacks because you know you can't win the argument. That means the 'Tide's still OP and I win, right? Cool.
Though at this stage, I think we need tiers of OP: Balanced, OP, Eldar.

Aw cute you had to edit my post because you couldn't bear to see that I was listing the facts , hmm interesting. And I didn't personally attack anyone, I pointed out your behavior why are you getting so sensitive about the subject? And wow "I win" really mature, your logic is astounding especially since you present no argument and your counter to mine was to hide what I wrote and leave a snarky comment? Only thing broken is your idea of whats OP in this game and if anything is laughable that is, keep on raging!

Your facts are not facts.

Those feels when you have to state: "Your opinion is not fact. Your opinion is also wrong".

Edit: #PROJECTING

Fact: there is nothing in the BA codex that is remotely as durable as the Riptide, at any price point.

Fact: The BA have no cost effective way to engage a Riptide outside of 18".

Fact: The Riptide functions at full effectiveness at ranges much greater than 18".

These are what I'm basing my analysis upon.

Martel732 wrote:
Fact: there is nothing in the BA codex that is remotely as durable as the Riptide, at any price point.

Fact: The BA have no cost effective way to engage a Riptide outside of 18".

Fact: The Riptide functions at full effectiveness at ranges much greater than 18".

These are what I'm basing my analysis upon.

Fact: The Blood Angels are one of the best armies for getting inside of 18" on the first turn of the game.

Jefffar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Fact: there is nothing in the BA codex that is remotely as durable as the Riptide, at any price point.

Fact: The BA have no cost effective way to engage a Riptide outside of 18".

Fact: The Riptide functions at full effectiveness at ranges much greater than 18".

These are what I'm basing my analysis upon.

Fact: The Blood Angels are one of the best armies for getting inside of 18" on the first turn of the game.

That's less useful than it first seems when your opponent examines you list and makes appropriate preparations. The BA efficacy as a drop list in a TAC environment is not that high.

Reading this thread I have to ask a question; what sort of win percentages do you want and get versus tau?

The Orkimedes force field generator in the Ghazgkull supplement can cause real problems when used in conjunction with masses of Boyz with painboyz attached. 2/3 mobs of Boyz with a 4++/5+FNP can be a real pain to stop (no pun intended!)

A 6" bubble doesn't seem large but I'm always surprised by how many Orks my friend seems to pack in there!

 carldooley wrote:
Reading this thread I have to ask a question; what sort of win percentages do you want and get versus tau?

I want about 50% and I'd say I get about 30% with my TAC BA list.

What sort of tau armies are you facing? I have a mobile tau army (not the best army, but a lot if fun), and my total win rate hovers just over 50%.

Most tri-Riptide with Broadsides. I know my "issue" is that my standard list only has one podded unit. However, I don't think BA drop pod is a very good TAC list.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What sort of tau armies are you facing? I have a mobile tau army (not the best army, but a lot if fun), and my total win rate hovers just over 50%.

I can tell you that I have a TFE force of similar composition, and my win ratio is 0%. but then I've only played one game with them (maelstrom) and lost by one point. but a loss is a loss. I wouldn't mind playing more games but getting together around my work schedule is a special kind of difficult.

I asked the above question because I was wondering who had unrealistic expectations when it comes to winning their games. something close to 50% is preferred because it ensures that the losing side tends to stay with the hobby rather than ragequitting.

Martel732 wrote:
Most tri-Riptide with Broadsides. I know my "issue" is that my standard list only has one podded unit. However, I don't think BA drop pod is a very good TAC list.

From what we've heard before about your meta in other threads is that you also don't have a lot of large LOS blocking terrain (as the shooty players don't like it, for reasons of they want an easy win) which also doesn't help.

It shouldn't preclude me from doing well.

you folks do realize that the drop pod can function as LOS blocking terrain?

 carldooley wrote:
you folks do realize that the drop pod can function as LOS blocking terrain?

No, it can't. You can see through it. It's a 5+ save only. Worthless to marines.

Only if you open the doors. And lots of the guys I play with painted the doors shut (probably on purpose.).

Martel732 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
you folks do realize that the drop pod can function as LOS blocking terrain?

No, it can't. You can see through it. It's a 5+ save only. Worthless to marines.

We can fire through models now? (eyes alight!)
seriously though, I must have missed any section of the rules that say that. I don't suppose that you could clue me in on where those rules are?

True LOS. I never thought to not open the doors on the model. That seems illegal to me, but I guess not. I'm not that desperate for LOS blockers. I'd rather not play than model for advantage.

You can fire through friendly models AFAIK, but you can't fire through friendly vehicles.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You can fire through friendly models AFAIK, but you can't fire through friendly vehicles.

that was never the issue. the issue was blocking LOS from interceptor IA shots.

We play it as you only get a 5+ cover save regardless of how its built, the doors were intended to open so that is how we play it.

 gmaleron wrote:
We play it as you only get a 5+ cover save regardless of how its built, the doors were intended to open so that is how we play it.

not to nitpick your houserules but do you grant similar rules to rhinos, razorbacks and land raiders after they embark or disembark their passengers, considering that their doors are supposed to open too?

 carldooley wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
We play it as you only get a 5+ cover save regardless of how its built, the doors were intended to open so that is how we play it.

not to nitpick your houserules but do you grant similar rules to rhinos, razorbacks and land raiders after they embark or disembark their passengers, considering that their doors are supposed to open too?

Different kind of vehicle, their doors can close after opened whereas Drop Pods cant. Its mainly based on true LOS because when a Drop Pod is deployed there are gaps you can see through where the Rhinos and Razorbacks do not have that.

you do understand my objection? It's a shame that we'll likely never face one another across a table, as such things don't usually occur to me. But then, my most recent games have been warmachine that uses rules that the models are essentially cylinders from their base to a pre-determined height.

 Boniface wrote:
Typical degradation into Riptide hate.

Ignore the riptide's existence momentarily.
Tau have always been the most disliked race in the game.
The Riptide is unfortunately a vessel for the hate.

Yeah man cause riptides are extremly hard to kill... Plus the Tau are a bunch of communists! Socialist gash faced freaks!

But think of it this way I play orks and made this thread on the idea that 1) Tau are stupid to play vs when they sit in a gunline opening chardonnay.

2) I have beaten everyone with orks all spectrum of cheese (Space marines, eldar, Tyranids, necrons, grey knights, Imperial guard, smash F***er, Paladin deathstar, Thunderwolves cheese, jet bike spam) but never have I played a game where I don't even kill one tau... so you keep think that your not OP... Oh wait here is this for you: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Tau%287E%29

I remember a FAq at some point that specified that any Space Marine pod can have whatever "petals" open that you want.

So open the ones on the side they came out on. Block Los. Fight. Win!

I have played gunline tau, mech tau, and mobile tau with my kult of speed orks. In my opinion, tau are powerful, but not unstoppable. They fall apart if you get too close to them and rely on being able to keep a steady distance away.

Targeting anything that can use a markerlight and killing them turn one or two can vastly decrease the potency of your opponent's shooting.

My orks can usually catch them while only losing a reasonable number of our boyz, and the surviving ones can then go on to wreck their carefully constructed gunlines.