I ask because a nearby store has had a lot of DUST miniatures on a 50% off sale since December of last year and they keep getting new stock and most of it is also 50% off. Almost like there is no market for it anymore because no one plays it.
There seem to be some issues between the studio and the distribution deals as well as some bridge burning between at least one designer and the community such as it was.
Locally one of our guys really got into it, built a nice site, started recruiting players. Store bought a bunch of stock. It looked like it was getting some traction and then it all blew up.
ConCon wrote: I ask because a nearby store has had a lot of DUST miniatures on a 50% off sale since December of last year and they keep getting new stock and most of it is also 50% off. Almost like there is no market for it anymore because no one plays it.
You may want to check out the drama in the kickstarter thread to see why you're getting that impression.
In a nutshell, Dust abruptly changed distributors from FFG to Battlefront, dumped one of the two game modes (the one that was less board game and more minis game), a massive 70% off sale flood the market by the former distributor that apparently restricted the new one from selling those kits, and then had a kickstarter that broke the KS terms by expressely using alot of the money to pay for prior expenses unrelated to the fulfillment of pledges and *SURPRISE!!* there were money issues leaving the customers in a lurch. Sorry about the disjointed sentance but that should give you at least the cliff notes version of why the game might be dying.
Dying is a generous description.
I was lucky enough to get out while they were fiddling with editions (between revised core and last year). Local stores have it discounted at least 25% and the online stores are clearing it out with even deeper cuts.
My store has had the stuff on sale at 50% off since November when they bought a literal truckload themselves during the FFG 70% off sale (or was it 75% off... can't remember) and they passed on most of the savings.
Ironically, it frankensteined the game as it had no life before but now there are a couple of folks who took advantage of the discount and started playing (mainly the bolt action crowd). Whether or not that interest continues once the discount stops is another story though...
Paolo the designer over at Dust Studios is clearly still intending to keep the game going (even if the KS fall out means that it has to be self distributed as they are planning to open a US office to do so if nessesary),
but the question is whether enough players will stick with it after a 3rd move, and whether any games stores will be willing to jump on to the new stuff with lots of old stuff still sale at major discounts
I think Dust is a dead game, but I also know a friend who bought roughly a pallet's worth of stuff when FFG cleared it out - he's set with Dust for life.
It's a shame, I always liked the models but luckily sold mine while people were still buying. I just didn't think I'd get around to playing it.
I'd like to see them come back as a more skirmishy game where you have a handful of heroes and maybe a walker or 2, with really nice metal or resin minis, rather than a squad based game.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of the boardgame rules either, so I would have preferred even more wargamey rules for the wargame version, instead of using the exact same simplistic stats for Warfare.
DUST isn't beyond recovery, but they will pretty much have to do everything right to start growing the game again.
Obviously, DUST still has a dedicated fanbase, so that can keep the game going for a while based off those kind of limited sales, but it's not going to grow or expand the game until the point where even those people stop buying.
ConCon wrote: I ask because a nearby store has had a lot of DUST miniatures on a 50% off sale since December of last year and they keep getting new stock and most of it is also 50% off. Almost like there is no market for it anymore because no one plays it.
Where is this store? I'd probably pick up a few things for 50% off...
But, yeah, DUST is dust. (Had to be said. HAD TO.)
It all depends on which product is being cleared out.
If you're seeing alot of Dust product at 50% off and it's FFG stuff then I wouldn't be worried. It's just FFG getting rid of old stock. I've heard that they have mountains of the stuff unsold. I wouldn't declare dust dead until the deal with Paolo and battlefront is sorted out.
If, however, you're seeing Battlefront-produced Dust being sold at 50% off, then DUST is in big trouble.
I loved buying the vehicles to use with my Eisenkern and friends. They were great minis, and made in glorious plastic before there was a lot of competition for plastic minis.
The game seemed popular, and I've heard a ton of great things about it, but I think it suffered from X-Wing syndrome (buy lots of boxes for more than they're worth if you want the good content) without the Star Wars name brand to save it. If the minis had been a bit cheaper, they would have been much easier to impulse buy or use as proxies.
I'd like to see them come back as a more skirmishy game where you have a handful of heroes and maybe a walker or 2, with really nice metal or resin minis, rather than a squad based game.
Wouldn't that destroy literally every advantage DUST had as a game?
ConCon wrote: I ask because a nearby store has had a lot of DUST miniatures on a 50% off sale since December of last year and they keep getting new stock and most of it is also 50% off. Almost like there is no market for it anymore because no one plays it.
Where is this store? I'd probably pick up a few things for 50% off...
But, yeah, DUST is dust. (Had to be said. HAD TO.)
I think what you meant to say was Dust is dead. Ashes to Ashes, and Dust to Dust.
... i'll see myself out.
All kidding aside, i really like the minis, and i love weird war two in general, but no one around here plays so i never even got the chance to see if i liked the rules or not.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Hell if Warzone can self-resurrect 3 or 4 times I think there's hope for Dust.
I think a key is how often Dust/Dust Warfare/Dust Tactics/Dust Insert New Name Here has done that in a very short period.
In 2007, FFG made the Dust boardgame (all dates according to BoardGameGeek), a more Risk-looking world map global area control game.
Following that setting, the original big box Dust Tactics followed a couple years later in 2010.
That box went away and the Revised Core set is listed as coming out in 2011.
Dust Warfare came out in 2012, a tabletop wargaming version using the same minis.
Dust Tactics starter sets for another revamped set of rules (including the popular changing of dice) came out in 2014.
In between Dust Warfare and the 2014 Dust Tactics starter sets, IIRC there was a 1.5 or 2.5 get-you-by set of rules for transition from the FFG to BF rules.
Seems like a lot of Phoenix-like rebirth and a lot of clearance sales in between versions to me.
DUST Studio – an Interview With Paolo Parente
Posted by Robert Allen at May 6, 2015
t02
As I’m a big fan of DUST Tactics and DUST Warfare, I reached out to a man who knows DUST better than practically anyone – it’s creator, Paolo Parente.
There has been a lot of news lately about DUST, and sadly not all of it has been positive news. I emailed Mr. Parente some pressing questions that I had about DUST, himself, and the future of the games.
Welcome, Paolo!
Robert Allen: How did you get your start in the gaming industry? What are some of the companies/properties you have worked on?
PAOLO PARENTE: l have always been lucky in my career (more than talented…) l started doing professional Fantasy and Sci-Fi illustration in the early `80s for a good friend of mine who appened to be starting games publications in Italy. Stratelibri was the name of his company, he asked me to produce illos for the italian edition of various RPG games like Lord of the Rings, Call of Cthulhu and Cyberpunk. The swedish Target Games came after that with Mutant Chronicles, R. Talsorian with Cybergeneration, and then Doomtown, Magic the Gathering. In 2003 l moved to Paris to work with Rackham on both Confrontation and AT43. plus a few cards for World of Warcraft and a few comic book experiences. l have been lucky and busy.
RA: How long have you been developing DUST?
PP: Dust is my dream project, l started developing it some 20 years ago, l wanted to develop a universe where l could combine my passion for Model Kit building and Comic Books and Wargaming. Fifteen year ago l luckily met my business partner William Yau in Shanghai China and it got real. We decided to develop it first as 1/6 scale action figures that lead into the Comic Book and finally into a miniature wargame: Dust Tactics.
RA: What is your title and role with DUST Studios? What does your typical day look like?
PP: l am the designer and creative director at the same time plus l do photography and graphic design even painting some prototypes. Vincent Fontaine our Art Director and Painter normally is in charge of painting and taking pictures, but when he is too busy l an happy to help him. My typical day at the Factory/Monastery, that is located in the industrial outskirts of Shenzhen China, starts early in the morning with a couple of hours of reading. l then show up at the office at 10 am and work until 10 pm. Two quick meal breaks and a lot of coffee+cigarillo breaks during our long day.
RA: DUST fans have had kind of a rough couple of years, with the change of distribution from Fantasy Flight Games to Battlefront and now the issues of Battlefront’s Kickstarter fulfillment. How hard has this been on you, since DUST is so near and dear to you?
PP: The Babylon Kickstarter has been transformed in a nightmare for us and the backers to whom goes all my sympathy. Why this is happening goes beyond my understanding, l can only elaborate theories but l will never know the truth behind this mess. A successful KS like this should just go smoothly. BF “magic touch” made such a mess of it for no apparent reason. For sure Dust Studio resources and the backers helped BF to solve some imminent financial issues, we should have expected another form of saying thank you than this Total Mess…
Personally l react with anger when l believe l am being mistreated, so for me it`s not been depressive times, but not everybody in the studio reacts in the same way, and they have been suffering a lot. During this very long year (last payed invoice by BF is dated March 2014) Dust has been sustained financially by our production capacity in manufacturing minis for other parties and William`s and mine personal money. But the decision was made not to let our company end like GF9 or worse Rackham, so we have invested every energy into the Studio and into building it’s future.
RA: While some of the details are surely still up in the air, what do you see in the future for DUST?
PP: We will start distributing our product ourselves. A first warehouse will be established in the US right after Gen Con and we are preparing a lot of new stuff. New armies within each faction starting with the Luftwaffe for the Axis, followed by the British/Australian Long Range Desert Group for the Allies and Chinese Army for the SSU, these should lead to the release of the Japanese Navy Landing Forces by the end of next year.
RA: What’s the status of the Zverograd novel that Andy Chambers has written?
PP: Andy has written a wonderful first chapter of his Zverograd trilogy, it will be released this year. And he will soon start writing the second part!
RA: Are we going to see Japan? An Eastern Front setting?
PP: lf everything goes according to the plans we will see the Japanese around Christmas 2016 together with DUST 1947 the revised Dust rules.
RA: What about the Vril?
PP: The Vrill will be introduced in 2017, June l would say. unless a miracle happens and we can release a Japan vs Vrill starter set for Christmas 2016. That would be a dream come true.
RA: DUST Warfare and its abandonment by Battlefront really bothered a lot of DUST players who preferred Warfare to Tactics. Do you have plans to pick Warfare back up?
PP: Dust Studio has not enough energy to take care of warfare as well, we all know that. Personally l believe that Dust Tactics Battlefield does the same job and even better, Olivier Zamfirescu and l always wanted Warfare to be exactly like Tactics but without the grid. We will license later this year Warfare to one of his most devoted players, he will continue that legacy.
RA: What sneak peeks can you share with me (and the readers?)
PP: Luftwaffe+Rocket Troops, Axis Blutkreuz miny army, British LRDG, Chinese Liberation Army, Japanese Navy Landing Forces and a LOT more!
RA: Thanks for sharing, Paolo! I’m definitely looking forward to more DUST! If you’d like to learn more about DUST Studios and the great Paolo Parente, check them out here: DUST Studio.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Hell if Warzone can self-resurrect 3 or 4 times I think there's hope for Dust.
I think a key is how often Dust/Dust Warfare/Dust Tactics/Dust Insert New Name Here has done that in a very short period.
In 2007, FFG made the Dust boardgame (all dates according to BoardGameGeek), a more Risk-looking world map global area control game.
Following that setting, the original big box Dust Tactics followed a couple years later in 2010.
That box went away and the Revised Core set is listed as coming out in 2011.
Dust Warfare came out in 2012, a tabletop wargaming version using the same minis.
Dust Tactics starter sets for another revamped set of rules (including the popular changing of dice) came out in 2014.
In between Dust Warfare and the 2014 Dust Tactics starter sets, IIRC there was a 1.5 or 2.5 get-you-by set of rules for transition from the FFG to BF rules.
Seems like a lot of Phoenix-like rebirth and a lot of clearance sales in between versions to me.
This is in part what killed the game amongst the people I knew were interested - too much instability of which rules, which game and where's it come from?
I've seen it in loads of WGI Ads, mentioned here a few times and gathering dust (pun intended) on shelves at various FLGS.
Never seen it played at a club or for that matter talked about. But it is pre-paint minis so that true of most similar things bar X-Wing.
It has been on 50% sale at Wayland for some time, might be worth a look for Foreign types and the exchange rate might make it even cheaper if this is your bag.
RA: DUST Warfare and its abandonment by Battlefront really bothered a lot of DUST players who preferred Warfare to Tactics. Do you have plans to pick Warfare back up?
PP: Dust Studio has not enough energy to take care of warfare as well, we all know that. Personally l believe that Dust Tactics Battlefield does the same job and even better, Olivier Zamfirescu and l always wanted Warfare to be exactly like Tactics but without the grid. We will license later this year Warfare to one of his most devoted players, he will continue that legacy.
Paolo can blame BF and others as much as he wants, but that article explains best why Dust is failing. He lets his personal feelings overrule good business practices. He might not have liked Warfare, but there where paying customers who did. And switching from FG mid-stride when Warfare was at it's peak potential hurt the game more than any bungling BF may have done later.
I like the BF version better, personally. We actually have a budding DUST fanbase here. I will admit the Kickstarter fiasco is hurting things, I have a couple hundred bucks tied up in it and I'm not happy. I'm hoping Paolo and company can do some good will service to get us all excited again.
Its kinda funny, because this whole kickstarter fiasco got me into figuring out the difference between this game and AT-43.
Bad publicity is still publicity, and it worked on me at least. They got my attention and I have actually read into what this game is about.
I do hope they don't burn out, I am somewhat interested in this game now, and would definitely consider trying it out if this kickstarter thing got resolved.
RA: DUST Warfare and its abandonment by Battlefront really bothered a lot of DUST players who preferred Warfare to Tactics. Do you have plans to pick Warfare back up?
PP: Dust Studio has not enough energy to take care of warfare as well, we all know that. Personally l believe that Dust Tactics Battlefield does the same job and even better, Olivier Zamfirescu and l always wanted Warfare to be exactly like Tactics but without the grid. We will license later this year Warfare to one of his most devoted players, he will continue that legacy.
I hadn't heard this before. Is there confirmation that Battlefront has officially abandoned DUST? That would make it more clear why DUST studios is trying self-distribution.
I'm still unclear as to why the problems started, but maybe that's for the best.
RA: DUST Warfare and its abandonment by Battlefront really bothered a lot of DUST players who preferred Warfare to Tactics. Do you have plans to pick Warfare back up?
PP: Dust Studio has not enough energy to take care of warfare as well, we all know that. Personally l believe that Dust Tactics Battlefield does the same job and even better, Olivier Zamfirescu and l always wanted Warfare to be exactly like Tactics but without the grid. We will license later this year Warfare to one of his most devoted players, he will continue that legacy.
I hadn't heard this before. Is there confirmation that Battlefront has officially abandoned DUST? That would make it more clear why DUST studios is trying self-distribution.
I'm still unclear as to why the problems started, but maybe that's for the best.
I think that's BolS being very deferential to Paolo in their interview. BF did try to keep the Warfare rules current with the Tactics releases. They were probably hampered in what they could do since FFG owned the base rules. I don't think they where in a good situation to maintain them, and Paolo didn't help since he wanted nothing to do with the warfare rules in the first place. My theory is that the Warfare rules where a big factor behind Paolo droping FFG as distributor in the first place.
BrookM wrote: It was a decent game when FFG did the rules for it, but apparently Paolo hates those rules something fierce..
Yea, he made that clear. When I was running Dust-War.com, he basically ignored us. We asked him for help with content, articles, and whatnot to help promote his IP, but because we were a Warfare website, he snubbed us generally. Bad move, because a lot of the growth of his game was Warfare, which probably only made it worse, since Tactics was his baby and much less popular.
Guildsman wrote: My local store sold off their stock, too. Interest just dropped off.
I don't think DUST is dead yet. Recent events have definitely hurt them, though.You can only burn so many bridges before your company suffers.
Same here. After the BF switch which amounted to months of limbo with zero communication on the future of the game, it was hard to keep interest up. I hear the Kickstarter fiasco has helped put the final nail in the coffin.
RA: DUST Warfare and its abandonment by Battlefront really bothered a lot of DUST players who preferred Warfare to Tactics. Do you have plans to pick Warfare back up? PP: Dust Studio has not enough energy to take care of warfare as well, we all know that. Personally l believe that Dust Tactics Battlefield does the same job and even better, Olivier Zamfirescu and l always wanted Warfare to be exactly like Tactics but without the grid. We will license later this year Warfare to one of his most devoted players, he will continue that legacy.
Paolo can blame BF and others as much as he wants, but that article explains best why Dust is failing. He lets his personal feelings overrule good business practices. He might not have liked Warfare, but there where paying customers who did. And switching from FG mid-stride when Warfare was at it's peak potential hurt the game more than any bungling BF may have done later.
Man, if only he had just stayed with FFG. They had a solid team of people building one of the best wargames I had played. Warfare was just so good and I can't imagine how good a Version 2 of it would have looked from FFG. But it wasn't a possibility, because as said, his baby wasn't in the spotlight.
This whole thing just bums me out, because I sank so much time and money into Dust Warfare only to see the feared end happen. I hear they are giving Warfare over to a fan to continue, but it is essentially going to be an unsupported game from here on out. I think the verdict would be that Warfare is dead, Tactics will putter along, and Battlefield might too (though if Dust Studio parts with BF, who knows what will happen).
In other words, as I have been saying in general, I would avoid Dust in any incarnation and just go for a stronger, better game with support. X-Wing comes to mind.
Same here. The crowd that started to play Dust only AFTER the 50-70% sales started exclusively plays the wargame version and NOT any of the boardgame derived ones.
RA: DUST Warfare and its abandonment by Battlefront really bothered a lot of DUST players who preferred Warfare to Tactics. Do you have plans to pick Warfare back up?
PP: Dust Studio has not enough energy to take care of warfare as well, we all know that. Personally l believe that Dust Tactics Battlefield does the same job and even better, Olivier Zamfirescu and l always wanted Warfare to be exactly like Tactics but without the grid. We will license later this year Warfare to one of his most devoted players, he will continue that legacy.
I hadn't heard this before. Is there confirmation that Battlefront has officially abandoned DUST? That would make it more clear why DUST studios is trying self-distribution.
I'm still unclear as to why the problems started, but maybe that's for the best.
I think that's BolS being very deferential to Paolo in their interview. BF did try to keep the Warfare rules current with the Tactics releases. They were probably hampered in what they could do since FFG owned the base rules. I don't think they where in a good situation to maintain them, and Paolo didn't help since he wanted nothing to do with the warfare rules in the first place. My theory is that the Warfare rules where a big factor behind Paolo droping FFG as distributor in the first place.
I agree about the deference. It really read like a Paolo blog post rather than a journalistic interview.
I'm just curious as to to know if there is any indication whether Battlefront is still involved with Dust or if they are getting out.
Secrets of the Third Reich is where I'd put my WW2 scify itch.
Stable and accessible designers, great community, and a game system that is less drama, more game.
Been with them for years off and on, and if anything the team is consistent and dedicated.
Dust died because of Ego, at the end of the day. It was just like watching the AT43 debacle all over again.
I liked the concept, and hated bowing out, but after watching the aforementioned mentioned drama, am really glad I didn't jump in like I wanted.
Train wreck in describing how it goes for Dust is being generous.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Yet the Warfare rules were the only part that local folks were at all interested in.
I don't know how it has been for the rest of the world, but I think that the local folks were looking for a 40K replacement, not a boardgame.
The Auld Grump
Agreed. The people I know that were curious never bought into it because it was more board game than war game.
If I had known about the actual war game version, I might have bought some.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I looked at models, and they where cool, but I was confused from the getgo about it. Like how many versions.
Yeah, that's what happened to me. I saw the models and went "Cool" and started looking, and saw there were 2 different games, saw one wasn't really supported anymore, and that there wasn't a centralized company/game website. All of the conflicting information and whatnot put me off from buying. And now that it is going to the board game only version because someone didn't like the skirmish game, there's no way I'm buying any of those models except for use in other games.
Battlefront and Dust are officially divorced and (for now) kickstarter backers are screwed. I don't know if Dust Studios will try to allow KS backers to purchase at cost from their new distrobution hub but frankly they don't have access to the KS emails which means they have no way of knowing exactly who ordered what. Factor into that the fact that existing dust stuff is still effectively available at retailer cost (50% off) via continuing sales.
There is so much drama that has been around and supplies or other people backing away or just not wanting to work with Paolo. It is becoming a common theme and starts making you wonder how much of it is just him? IN his normal every day reactions working with these people what does he do to push them? To have these type of reactions.
The game is going to burn out if not already has. After Battlefront no big supplier will touch it or him.
I for one had Dust warfare and for how he reacted and seeing Paolo, I won't touch another game of his at all.
Aside from Dust, where are people not wanting to work with Paolo? Didn't CMoN recently have him do a couple figs for Zombicide? And isn't he doing some other stuff for other projects?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Aside from Dust, where are people not wanting to work with Paolo? Didn't CMoN recently have him do a couple figs for Zombicide? And isn't he doing some other stuff for other projects?
Figures and individual contributions to projects aside.
Paolo makes games for Paolo. Unlike the majority of designers who are willing to see their works changed and can see that their own vision may hamper their projects, Paolo appears happy to cut of his nose to spite his face.
Warfare is probably the most popular 'game mode' for DUST - Paolo doesn't like it - hates it even - as it isnt' HIS vision for the game. I suspect he dragged his heels and was apathetic towards any pushing and enhancement of the Warfare rules. Can you imagine giving cash to Paolo? knowing that what gamers want isn't even a priority in his mind?
A popular Warfare would enable Tactics as another project etc.
Hate to say it but you could substitute Paolos name for GW in any conversation about missed opportunities and not responding to customer needs.
After the updates posted in the other thread, I think it's official: DUST is dead. Even if they start distributing themselves, how many stores will actually stock it now?
I wonder how much of the financial problem between the two companies is symptomatic of a difference of opinion in the direction of the game?
It sounds like Paulo wants to pretty much ignore the wargame aspect, and concentrate on the board game aspect.
While BF is/was more interested in the wargame aspect - which i suspect would have been the more financially reward aspect.
In which case it was differing opinions that led to a lack of communication which led, in turn, to disagreements that would otherwise have been worked out between the two.
It also would be likely to make Paulo express his opinions publicly, rather than trying to find an equitable means of keeping the project rolling.
I know that the boardgame does not hold any interest for me, while the larger scale wargame did.
Trying to take a disagreement to the public stage is seldom an indication of a strong position, but is often an indicator of strong feelings.
It also makes resolution less likely.
The Auld Grump - I admit that I am biased by my lack of interest in the direction that Paulo wants to take the game.
Paolo hated Warfare. Battlefront didn't really invest in Warfare, because FFG still had stock of it, so they made Battlefield.
In the end, Warfare died years ago. Battlefield dies with Dust Studio and Battlefront parting ways and Dust Tactics goes on to be even more of a niche product than it was, since Paolo burned ~1500 backers (along with Battlefront) on the Babylon Kickstarter.
Plus all the childish finger-pointing after a bungled Kickstarter, preceded by a horribly mismanaged brand preceded by months of silence after the transition from FFG. Who can have faith in these people anymore?
Dust is dead to all but the diehards who will keep remnant groups alive here and there, but without proper support it becomes a fan-driven side-game at best.
I called this years ago though, when Paolo pulled Dust from FFG and after BF clearly was unable to do anything worthwhile with Warfare (Achilles Beta, for starters). That was the beginning of the end, for sure.
BrookM wrote: Makes me wonder how well the DUST RPG is doing right about now.
Did they ever have the kickstarter for that? I don't really keep track of that one or the Infinity RPG . I heard about both long ago and not much since.
I hadn't heard this before. Is there confirmation that Battlefront has officially abandoned DUST? That would make it more clear why DUST studios is trying self-distribution.
I'm still unclear as to why the problems started, but maybe that's for the best.
Yes. Dust and Battlefront had an agreement on how they were going to pay for everything in the Kickstarter. Battlefront refused to pay Dust Studios for the minis they produced, and Dust refused to fulfill the Kickstarter at cost.
Yesterday (May 11 , 2015) DUST Studios pulled the plug and said that they have given up on Wave 2 fulfillment- it officially will not happen, and no one is trying to compromise anymore. They advised backers to report Battlefront to their credit card companies for fraud.
From the look of things, Battlefront started the kickstarter with a debt to Dust for some manufacturing they did in the past, and used Kickstarter money to pay them back. Then they did not have the funds leftover to pay for what they had agreed upon, and basically asked DUST to deliver the miniatures for free.
You figure that there are at least two sides in any disagreement, but Battlefront's own PR statements about it don't contradict Dust- they just kept saying that Dust should be more willing to compromise (ie- they should just take the hit).
BrookM wrote: Makes me wonder how well the DUST RPG is doing right about now.
Did they ever have the kickstarter for that? I don't really keep track of that one or the Infinity RPG . I heard about both long ago and not much since.
I hadn't heard this before. Is there confirmation that Battlefront has officially abandoned DUST? That would make it more clear why DUST studios is trying self-distribution.
I'm still unclear as to why the problems started, but maybe that's for the best.
Yes. Dust and Battlefront had an agreement on how they were going to pay for everything in the Kickstarter. Battlefront refused to pay Dust Studios for the minis they produced, and Dust refused to fulfill the Kickstarter at cost.
Yesterday (May 11 , 2015) DUST Studios pulled the plug and said that they have given up on Wave 2 fulfillment- it officially will not happen, and no one is trying to compromise anymore. They advised backers to report Battlefront to their credit card companies for fraud.
From the look of things, Battlefront started the kickstarter with a debt to Dust for some manufacturing they did in the past, and used Kickstarter money to pay them back. Then they did not have the funds leftover to pay for what they had agreed upon, and basically asked DUST to deliver the miniatures for free.
You figure that there are at least two sides in any disagreement, but Battlefront's own PR statements about it don't contradict Dust- they just kept saying that Dust should be more willing to compromise (ie- they should just take the hit).
Good to know. It will be interesting to see what battlefront says when they make their promised statement. It doesn't look good for them, but at the same time, they've definitely been the more professional in not slinging much mud while negotiations were pending.
damn shame, I really love the game, but haven't really been able to play it since they changed the dice. and i have been trying to get ahold of the new dice for over a year now. I had ordered it a while ago from battlefront directly, and never received it. I emailed them and they sent me a scathing email back saying that they have told everyone it is not available, and they tell people this every week and I should know better then to order it. Well, I wasnt following the kickstarter bs, I just need some new dice from them, and there site said it was in stock.
Needless to say I was pissed, and called and spoke to one of the managers in charge of customer relations and store orders. After a 20 minute discussion on how to treat your customers, I'll never ever buy anything from battlefront again. Now, if i could only get those dice I would be happy lol.
BrookM wrote: Makes me wonder how well the DUST RPG is doing right about now.
Did they ever have the kickstarter for that? I don't really keep track of that one or the Infinity RPG . I heard about both long ago and not much since.
It wasn't a KS, but rather just a pre-order campaign.
Good to know. It will be interesting to see what battlefront says when they make their promised statement. It doesn't look good for them, but at the same time, they've definitely been the more professional in not slinging much mud while negotiations were pending.
Well, I hope they don't continue to take the moral high ground by not giving their side to the story. I honestly found their PR a little less professional than his because they refused to give any details or answer any of his public claims. Not that anyone leaves this debacle looking good.
Did Kickstarter used to have terms about only spending the money on stuff related to the project? I looked a few months back and didn't see anything specific on that in their terms when all this stuff started to come out. I know that when the company finally admits to the project failing, they're supposed to list what exactly they spent the money on but that isn't the same thing.
BrookM wrote: Makes me wonder how well the DUST RPG is doing right about now.
Did they ever have the kickstarter for that? I don't really keep track of that one or the Infinity RPG . I heard about both long ago and not much since.
It wasn't a KS, but rather just a pre-order campaign.
Ah, ok thanks. Also thanks to Fenrir for the earlier link.
Yes. Dust and Battlefront had an agreement on how they were going to pay for everything in the Kickstarter. Battlefront refused to pay Dust Studios for the minis they produced, and Dust refused to fulfill the Kickstarter at cost.
Yesterday (May 11 , 2015) DUST Studios pulled the plug and said that they have given up on Wave 2 fulfillment- it officially will not happen, and no one is trying to compromise anymore. They advised backers to report Battlefront to their credit card companies for fraud.
From the look of things, Battlefront started the kickstarter with a debt to Dust for some manufacturing they did in the past, and used Kickstarter money to pay them back. Then they did not have the funds leftover to pay for what they had agreed upon, and basically asked DUST to deliver the miniatures for free.
You figure that there are at least two sides in any disagreement, but Battlefront's own PR statements about it don't contradict Dust- they just kept saying that Dust should be more willing to compromise (ie- they should just take the hit).
That's a bit of an oversimplification. The debt was from typical manufacturing financing for the first few waves that DS and BF collaborated on. The waves did not sell well enough or fast enough to pay back the bank when the loan was due. Paying off the debt was the primary justification for the KS. It was covered as such in their contract. Otherwise neither company had the capital to invest in producing another product release wave.
The KS payed for the debt and most of the KS rewards. I did some napkin estimates based on public comments from both parties and I'm pretty sure that all the money has been spent except for a reserve to cover shipping. So it's not a question of one side withholding collected money. t's about who eats the cost of the funding shortfall. There is contention on stretch goals that where not covered in the initial contract that BF is claiming there were verbal agreements to. Agreements made by Paolo that DS says never happened or don't count because Paolo was not authorized to make them.
The original contract puts all responsibility for meeting delivery on DS. DS claims that contract is void now because BF paid the bank loans out of order.
The last few months have been about trying to figure out how to split the remaining costs of the kickstarter rewards. I believe both sides have stated publicly that they are willing to split the costs, the breakdown seems to be on how much.
odinsgrandson wrote:[
Well, I hope they don't continue to take the moral high ground by not giving their side to the story. I honestly found their PR a little less professional than his because they refused to give any details or answer any of his public claims. Not that anyone leaves this debacle looking good.
In the past, BF has directly responded to Paolo's claims. They just take a few days to formulate a response. I'm pretty sure this is because Paolo says whatever he wants whenever he wants, and Battlefront runs all their communications past their lawyers first.
I hadn't heard this before. Is there confirmation that Battlefront has officially abandoned DUST? That would make it more clear why DUST studios is trying self-distribution.
I'm still unclear as to why the problems started, but maybe that's for the best.
Yes. Dust and Battlefront had an agreement on how they were going to pay for everything in the Kickstarter. Battlefront refused to pay Dust Studios for the minis they produced, and Dust refused to fulfill the Kickstarter at cost.
Yesterday (May 11 , 2015) DUST Studios pulled the plug and said that they have given up on Wave 2 fulfillment- it officially will not happen, and no one is trying to compromise anymore. They advised backers to report Battlefront to their credit card companies for fraud.
From the look of things, Battlefront started the kickstarter with a debt to Dust for some manufacturing they did in the past, and used Kickstarter money to pay them back. Then they did not have the funds leftover to pay for what they had agreed upon, and basically asked DUST to deliver the miniatures for free.
You figure that there are at least two sides in any disagreement, but Battlefront's own PR statements about it don't contradict Dust- they just kept saying that Dust should be more willing to compromise (ie- they should just take the hit).
Sort of...only if you listen to Paolo....
They did indeed have an agreement/contract. And then Paolo's partner who manufactures Dust decided BF should pay for some of the free addons, which the agreement spelled out Dust would pay for. They are stalled now because BF doesn't feel like being extorted for things they didn't agree to.
Do you wonder why Paolo is whining so hard in public? It's because he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
XvReaperXv wrote: damn shame, I really love the game, but haven't really been able to play it since they changed the dice. and i have been trying to get ahold of the new dice for over a year now. I had ordered it a while ago from battlefront directly, and never received it. I emailed them and they sent me a scathing email back saying that they have told everyone it is not available, and they tell people this every week and I should know better then to order it. Well, I wasnt following the kickstarter bs, I just need some new dice from them, and there site said it was in stock.
Needless to say I was pissed, and called and spoke to one of the managers in charge of customer relations and store orders. After a 20 minute discussion on how to treat your customers, I'll never ever buy anything from battlefront again. Now, if i could only get those dice I would be happy lol.
You can play without the official dice. Each die has two shields, faction symbols, and crosshairs. Simply determine which number is which symbol.
XvReaperXv wrote: damn shame, I really love the game, but haven't really been able to play it since they changed the dice. and i have been trying to get ahold of the new dice for over a year now. I had ordered it a while ago from battlefront directly, and never received it. I emailed them and they sent me a scathing email back saying that they have told everyone it is not available, and they tell people this every week and I should know better then to order it. Well, I wasnt following the kickstarter bs, I just need some new dice from them, and there site said it was in stock.
Needless to say I was pissed, and called and spoke to one of the managers in charge of customer relations and store orders. After a 20 minute discussion on how to treat your customers, I'll never ever buy anything from battlefront again. Now, if i could only get those dice I would be happy lol.
You can play without the official dice. Each die has two shields, faction symbols, and crosshairs. Simply determine which number is which symbol.
When I got into Tactics you got these dice with four blank sides and two sides marked with a crosshair, meaning a simple 5+ roll would suffice on regular dice.
I'm not sure however how the new dice with a symbol on each facing work nowadays.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm assuming that the newer dice are filling space, because they can.
The symbols all mean something in the latest edition, if I recall right. Not really sure just what, because I didn't play Tactics. In Warfare, Blanks/Hits sufficed.
You know, when two people with an understanding and history of the game can't even figure out what a six sided die means in various versions, the company and system has problems.
Out of curiosity, what system were the KS models to be used in? If they are released, and assuming that the bad blood means Dust:Battlefield is dead, will they even be usable in Dust: Whatever that might survive?
Shotgun wrote: You know, when two people with an understanding and history of the game can't even figure out what a six sided die means in various versions, the company and system has problems.
Out of curiosity, what system were the KS models to be used in? If they are released, and assuming that the bad blood means Dust:Battlefield is dead, will they even be usable in Dust: Whatever that might survive?
If you honestly want the game, best thing to do is to snatch up the discounts and snacks available from everyone and Uncle Ernie who is trying to drop them all like a bad habit. The dice are available from FRP, but are temporarily out of stock. they will have them soon though.
Worst thing about DUST is the ego train, that in the end is what killed the game. Both sides are just awful about it, and should be publicly crushed for gakking the fans. Love the moral high ground, though, the scumbags.
Anything with Paolo Parente, or Battlefront should be treated as a proverbial Leper colony from here on out. They did everything they could to crap on the fans, and neither one even cares that they stole your money.
Good to know. It will be interesting to see what battlefront says when they make their promised statement. It doesn't look good for them, but at the same time, they've definitely been the more professional in not slinging much mud while negotiations were pending.
Well, I hope they don't continue to take the moral high ground by not giving their side to the story. I honestly found their PR a little less professional than his because they refused to give any details or answer any of his public claims. Not that anyone leaves this debacle looking good.
It's not the moral high ground, it's simple professionalism that you don't air your dirty laundry until after negotiations are completed. BF didn't have any solid news for the public and they said so and then kept their mouth shut. That is of course frustrating for the gamer public, but it's the professional thing to do.
Paolo griped to the heavens and tried to control the narrative and get the public on his side, but that doesn't mean he is right.
I do agree that If negotiations and legal dealings are truely over then it's time for BF to make a statement and let the customers know what's up, but it's not even entirely clear that it's that time yet.
They did indeed have an agreement/contract. And then Paolo's partner who manufactures Dust decided BF should pay for some of the free addons, which the agreement spelled out Dust would pay for. They are stalled now because BF doesn't feel like being extorted for things they didn't agree to.
Do you wonder why Paolo is whining so hard in public? It's because he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
My thoughts as well. I don't think the verdict is in yet either way, but as the bard said('ish)"he doth protest too much".
When I read Paolo's posts, I can't help but be reminded of Tony Reidy's rants when Wargames Factory was being taken away from him by Wai Kee Hui. Lots of folks (almost everyone, including me) poured on the sympathy for Tony and WKH stayed mostly quiet until everything was completed. When everything finally came to light WKH was shown to the responsible party and Wargames Factory has moved from strength to strength. What happened to Tony's "Defiance Games?….
Not saying that Paolo is Tony or is necessarily at fault, but my skepticism alarm blares when only one side is ranting.
mikhaila wrote: Do you wonder why Paolo is whining so hard in public? It's because he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
It is entirely possible (and extremely likely) that Paolo has the moral and legal right here, but what he lacks is the financial resources to take BF to court, secure a judgement, grind through the appeals, and compel BF to make good on the contract.
Being right is meaningless unless you have the financial backing and legal resources to mount an effective legal campaign to enforce your rights.
GW Legal knew this, which is why they sent so many C&D letters with threat of legal action, knowing that the overwhelming majority of targets would immediately fold, rather than assert rights that GW would beat by default judgement once they drove the other company into bankruptcy.
As I see it, BF is pulling a GW Legal on Paolo, knowing that their stronger financial position makes all of Paolo's legal and moral rectitude moot.
Biggest difference for me is that DS has been consistently producing Dust miniatures for years. BFs involvement seemed to start with cheaping out on buying FFGs stock, raising prices for less content and...this thing.
All the info from DS comes fom Paulo, all the support for BF seems to come from people with vested interests in their other products. I'm not really buying anyone's narrative right now.
malfred wrote: None of you are trying to talk me out of sino soviets! I hate Dakka forever.
The helicopter looks chibi. Also, trying to convince someone else to start getting into the game will likely come across as sincere as Monty Python's Black Knight.
There is, but it's terrible. Simply terrible. Simple. And terrible. Make something up that uses the models.
I hereby give you permission to buy the models. All of them. And good on you for waiting until the game died, so you could pick them up at clearance prices. That's smart.
Most retailers are damn near giving away the models. Buy 'em up and convert them or just display them. But yea... avoid the game-related content and you will be probably happier for it.
And if you ever see "Dust" and "Kickstarter" in the future, you may want to avoid that too.
I'm afraid I won't be much help in dissuading you from purchasing what is a very nice line of models.
If you like the models and can find a use for them, at the prices they've been going for there's really no reason not too. Besides, if at some point the game shakes itself out and recovers a player base then you've just got to buy some rules and cards and get playing.
I've actually bought a fair bit of Dust Product for use or potential use in my 28mm mecha games
-9 Warzone Tenements
-4 Quonset hut packs
-3 Fireball 6 legged mechs
-1 of each of the 3 helicopter variants
I've used up nearly all the buildings so if/when FFG does another blowout, I'll have to buy more.
At the risk of sounding like our illustrious and lecherous former president, define what "is" is. The answer to your question is in flux (see the thread title). What I can say is that there were several games released in rapid fire succession.
If the building accessory was similarly discounted, I'd have ordered a few of each. I'm sorry but 50% off is standard dust discount at this point in the death throes.
I have been recently told that Battlefront has made statements to their backers via email.
I must say, with Paolo telling backers to report BF for credit card fraud, they needed to do this.
I'd honestly like to read this, because I feel like Paolo has been giving us his point of view quite a bit, but BF haven't let us know what this looks like from their side.
odinsgrandson wrote: I have been recently told that Battlefront has made statements to their backers via email.
I must say, with Paolo telling backers to report BF for credit card fraud, they needed to do this.
I'd honestly like to read this, because I feel like Paolo has been giving us his point of view quite a bit, but BF haven't let us know what this looks like from their side.
odinsgrandson wrote: I have been recently told that Battlefront has made statements to their backers via email.
I must say, with Paolo telling backers to report BF for credit card fraud, they needed to do this.
I'd honestly like to read this, because I feel like Paolo has been giving us his point of view quite a bit, but BF haven't let us know what this looks like from their side.
Might as well post it here too. It's ALOT to read through.
A message from Battlefront CEO John-Paul Brisigotti
Posted by Dust Studio
For backers only
Spoiler:
We usually write these messages with a desire to be professional and calm about the situation, and the hope that it all might end well. In truth, we have reached the point of having heard enough of the one-sided view of this, and we must respond in this public manner.
We feel that no backer should have had to go through this, but our relative silence has been taken as a sign of our sole guilt in this joint venture. We assure you both parties are at fault here, and we need to tell more of our side of the story.
BUT – we know most of you are fed up with the disagreement, and only care about getting your rewards. So I’ll deal with that first.
The very first thing we need to make crystal clear is that Battlefront has asked repeatedly these past months for a list of ‘Wave Two’ products that have actually been manufactured. Dust Studio has made vague public promises that production was continuing, but has been evasive about the details.
If ‘Wave Two’ products really have been produced, we need to see a list so we can pay for the agreed stock and arrange for it to be collected from Dust Studio and distributed to you, the backers. To date, we have heard nothing more than, “It’s finished. Pay.” from William, or last week a flat-out refusal to deliver stock to us now that their “new plan” is in the works.
I think this needs to be reiterated so no one can misread it. Once we get an itemised list of what is ready to ship, we can send the funds. It is that simple. If this seems reasonable to you, we ask that you please email william@cathaygames.com and twistedtoys@gmail.com asking them politely to just send the list.
This is the simplest course of action for all parties. It means that you, the backers, will get the items you paid for at the price you were promised, and not at any additional cost that Dust Studio might be proposing.
We feel it is only prudent to want William to confirm he will release the goods to the shipping agent on receipt of the transferred funds.
If we are given this list we will use the balance of the money remaining to pay for the stock and deliver it to the world, as was always the plan. It will take around six weeks from the stock being released to it arriving with us and starting to ship to you.
Failing that, our alternative plan is to issue backers with a refund.
We have two choices for any customer who backed and paid through the Kickstarter:
1. Cash Refund: We will process your refund based on the funds remaining from the project on a pro-rata basis. We collected $571,937 in total, from the Kickstarter campaign and the Pledge Manager. $50,647 went in fees to Kickstarter and PayPal. We have paid Dust Studio 72.5% of the remaining money, $378,007, and spent another $27,653 on the first wave of shipping. This leaves $115,330, which is then enough to pay for the remaining ‘Wave Two’ stock, assuming it is made.
You will get a portion of this remaining balance, depending on what rewards you have already received in ‘Wave 1’. The processing of these claims will be slow as there is no automated way to do this, so they have to be done one at a time after consultation with each backer. Payments will start to come out from the end of May, and will take about two months to get completed.
2. Stock Credit: If you would prefer to take the balance of your order in existing DUST stock, we will give you 300% of the outstanding value. If we owe you $100, you can have $300 (retail value) worth of DUST items from our inventory, and we ship it to you at our expense. In other words, you can take your credit in DUST stock at a two-thirds discount. We will be offering the rulebook and card packs at 50% discount, as we will have to print some more of those to fill new orders. This is the best way we know to try and give you the fullest value we can for the remaining value of money you contributed to the project.
Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!
For those who backed through a retail store, we will be offering stores several solutions to make sure you are not left out. We are able to resolve this issue with stores quickly, given our ongoing relationship, so if Dust Studio truly force us to go down this path, no retailer or LGS backer will lose out.
Now that we have dealt with the main issue, we would like to explain more of the background from our perspective, to give you the other side of the story.
Free Upgrades
This dispute between the two of us started with just one issue, which is still unresolved: the free incentives that Paolo Parente promised on behalf of Dust Studio. When the Kickstarter started, we decided the details together - Paolo Parente and me. We came up with the idea together and we were in contact with one another every single day. The video on the front page features Paolo talking. Every new stretch goal was agreed between myself and Paolo before it was announced. Not one single thing in the project was done without Paolo’s knowledge and agreement. Together we agreed on everything from pack contents to pricing.
After a year of working together prior to the Kickstarter, Paolo and I had a good working relationship, or so I thought. In fact, the only time we ever heard from William was when it came time to pay or get the shipping paperwork.
Just ask yourself - if we had been doing this alone, wouldn’t Paolo have raised an issue with what we were doing? He did not. And he has never denied being fully aware of everything going on. When discussing the free incentives that are part of every Kickstarter, we felt it was fair to share the cost of these between us. Battlefront would provide half and Dust Studio the other half. This is very important - at no time was either company expecting to receive payment from Kickstarter funds for these items! They would cost both companies money to supply, but that was an acceptable investment, to ensure a successful Kickstarter. Case in point - Paolo said the Abandoned Well terrain piece would be expensive and slow to produce, which is why we offered to make it for them (and we still intend to, if Dust Studio ever gives us the master models). Everything in the plan went back and forth and nothing was posted without approval, from the first images to the final free upgrade.
At no point throughout the Kickstarter was William Yau our point of contact with Dust Studio. It was always Paolo and me representing each business. Paolo is not “just an artist” as he now keeps claiming, and cannot hide behind that statement. As far as we were concerned, Paolo was our contact for Dust Studio and he spoke on behalf of the business. He is a senior manager and shareholder of that company, just like I am for Battlefront.
Then in November when we submitted the pledge manager orders, William stated that unless we paid for all of the free incentive items at the usual wholes price (this includes production costs and Dust Studio’s profit margin) he would not supply the ‘Wave 2’ products. He claimed that because this was not in the original agreement in writing he never agreed to it. I pointed out that the agreement only had the first twelve items listed and that the line “and anything else agreed to between the two companies during the campaign” covered the 40 new item codes and free upgrades which Paolo and I added together during the project. He said no, that is not true and we had to pay.
We of course balked at this, saying this was not the deal that Paolo and I agreed. Neither of us was being paid, as it was our contribution to the project to make it as successful as it was. At this point Paolo disappeared and was out of contact for over a month, after having sent us an email saying that William was the CEO and what he says goes. This is where the matter has been left. Battlefront shipped out 90% of the free items it promised with ‘Wave 1’ and the last items we owe were intended to ship with ‘Wave 2’. Dust Studio has not supplied a single item on their list, and from what William says, will never do so.
This then led to all sorts of other issues being raised that are not directly part of the Kickstarter. When two companies are contractually tied to one another, one issue often leads to another.
‘Out of the Picture’?
Paolo has pronounced on Facebook, and in an email to some backers, that Battlefront is now ‘out of the picture’.
Both myself and Battlefront’s chairman went back and forth with William for months trying to get a reasonable resolution, asking for mediation all along so that all the issues could get addressed. This is what most reasonable people do when they find themselves at a standstill. William and Paolo, who resurfaced after this went bad and then resorted to making wonderfully colourful claims about everything other than the truth, refused, saying that unless we paid in full they would use this to cancel the contract between us.
We came to accept that an end to the relationship between the two companies might be the outcome after the Kickstarter was delivered. It would be normal in these cases for both parties to list their contractual issues that they felt needed addressing, as a basis for negotiation. We sent such a list to them and invited them to do the same. Instead of seeing that both sides had issues, William and Paolo seem to have got very upset. How dare we say that Battlefront has a stake in products we have made? How dare we want to know what will happen to the nearly 19,000 units of stock we have in our warehouses? How dare we even suggest that they cannot unilaterally decide how the relationship ends? Not one single request for an answer was given. They simply insist we must accept their interpretation of events as law.
This might well be the way William does things but in the rest of the world it is a little more complex than that. Now it is easier for them to claim we ‘blackmailed’ them - a ridiculous claim and one we would like to see proved.
We believed, like a reasonable person might, that because they had already gone through this process with Fantasy Flight, they would be fully aware that cancelling a contract early has ramifications on both sides that must be resolved before the contract is confirmed cancelled. Until these things are agreed Dust Studio and Battlefront are contractually tied to one another, plain and simple. Simply stating it is not the case in a public letter changes very little. But it does suit Dust Studio, as they start to put their new plan into motion before resolving the disagreement with us.
The issues that have come to light because of this conflict are numerous and serious. These are issues which should have been dealt with privately and professionally, but which Paolo has brought into the public eye:
1. The first issue is over the original distribution contract. At the time of signing, Dust Studio failed to disclose a deal they had made that allowed another company to stop them making products for us. This only came to light six months down the path when the new starter sets, planned as key releases for the crucial Christmas period, were blocked from being shipped. The stock that was supposed to be out in October 2013 finally hit the market in February 2014.
The disclosure of this agreement would have meant we would NEVER have signed with Dust Studio in the first place, so you can only imagine how we felt. But by this stage we had invested a great deal of time and effort into DUST and wanted to see it blossom, so we moved forward with new plans in the hope that the future would pay for the past, but having suffered a serious financial loss for our first Christmas as the DUST distributor.
2. The second issue we have is over the licensed products we have made. Part of the agreement right from the start was that the Battlefront studio would create a new version of the DUST rules. This was a big reason they came to us to be their partner, a company who has a proven track record with miniature games. Work in earnest began with the starter set rules and progressed into version two of the rules, a complete graphic overhaul and a brand new way to play: Dust Tactics Battlefield. This work was done by Phil, Casey and Andrew with the help of Olivier. Olivier had a draft of version two already done, as a starting point, but it was not the game we published after the work we did together. The new cards, dice and templates and Battlefield rules were things that Battlefront created, that Paolo did not want to change at all. But, after visiting New Zealand with Olivier, they saw there was merit to the new material, to give the entire game a new lease on life.
This was all done at our cost, as a work under license, where we had to pay Dust Studio a royalty on any of those items we manufactured and sold. Miniatures we simply purchased from them but printed material and other items we created were all made by us in-house. Now it appears that William is claiming he never gave us permission and we are using his copyright without permission. Paolo is now claiming that he and Olivier came to NZ to do the work and the Battlefront guys only did a bit of editing work. This is an outright lie. Phil, Casey and Andrew spent almost 3000 combined hours of time on everything from the start sets to Operation Babylon, compared to the part-time hours of Olivier in France with no graphic input whatsoever. Let me just be clear that Olivier is French, and has not written the finished English text of any product we have produced together. In essence, all the Dust Studio supplied us with were photos – great-looking photos, but that doesn’t make a game. The core Dust Tactics version 2 rules we created together but the new cards, templates, dice and Dust Tactics Battlefield are 100% original creations by Battlefront. This is why our logo and the names of our team are on these products, all of which were seen and approved by Paolo and William before going to print.
Please ask yourselves, if we are lying why is it that Paolo, Olivier or Dust Studio do not have the digital files to print these items themselves? Even if we had ‘just’ edited the work, as Paolo is now alleging, they would need to have the files to supply us to edit. In fact, Paolo even surreptitiously contacted our graphic artist on his personal email address, to ask him to supply the new DUST card files without Battlefront’s knowledge. This can only be seen as underhanded. Because Dust Studio is based in China, we have no practical legal recourse to stop them printing anything locally. But DUST sells in a market that has strong and defendable copyright law, so once the stock leaves the factory, our rights would be acknowledged as soon as any party tried to import our designs without an agreement in place.
Now, none of this mattered while we were in a partnership, and we have never asked for payment for any of our time. It was our contribution to expanding DUST, as an investment in the future. What we did ask is that if the agreement is now going to end, how do we handle the rights for products we made under license? The normal procedure in the world is that at the end of your agreement both parties go their own way and neither can use the licensed work in any way. We understand this well – we make numerous licensed games, and when our license is over we cannot sell any more of the games, and neither can the license owner; the game simply ceases to be a saleable item. Both parties can agree otherwise (for example, an offer to purchase the rights to a product in perpetuity). But without such an agreement, this is how the law works. William has denied this outright and claims it is theirs anyway and they can do what they want with it. This is most definitely not the case.
The claim that we developed DUST material without their knowledge is laughable - we have hundreds of emails back and forth throughout the development process. But the icing on the cake is our fully documented royalty payments, which are all up to date, and which William and Paolo confirmed by email at the time of payment.
3. Payment. On the 21st June I emailed Paolo and William to tell them the good news: the Kickstarter was a hit and had raised enough funds to pay for everything, including the pre-agreed W9.1, W9.2 and W9.3 payment. At this point things are all good and we are just starting to realise how much more work we have to do and we accepted that we would need to do two shipments as the orders were simply too big for Dust Studio to make in one go.
The funds for the first shipment, which we have taken to calling ‘Wave 1’, were wired over as quickly as possible after the Kickstarter ended. At that time, William asked if we could pay the agreed W9.1-3 payment out of order. Seeing no harm in this, as we had sufficient funds to pay for all the stock, we sent the money. So DUST had been paid $360,000 within three weeks of the Kickstarter ending. This payment five months before the issue should not have been sent at that time, but our trust and belief that we had agreed about the free items meant this was okay to do. This has only worked against us as the money paid left us only with the 'Wave 2' stock money left to pay, and no leverage to try and get a resolution.
4. Mediation. With all this going back and forth and neither side getting anywhere, we offered to put it to a mediator. This was refused on multiple occasions. When a company friend of DUST tried to step in and help resolve this, their offer was 10% off the free upgrade items. This was later increased to 40%, (over $50,000) but to reiterate - no money was collected for either side to be paid for their half of the free upgrade items. This is still unresolved, but we feel it should not stand in the way of you the backers getting your paid-for items.
5. The pledge manager delay. This is not a tale of how we did everything right and Dust Studio are bad, etc. We made mistakes here as well. The pledge manager was solely our mistake. It took far too long to get out, it was extremely cumbersome, and the whole process was overly complicated. The way we structured the Kickstarter was just not conducive to collecting information in an automated way. When it closed there were over 300 people who had not completed it. I am not pointing fingers here, but without those finished pledges we were unable to get the final list to William to manufacture in a timely fashion. To those that got it done correctly, I’m very sorry you got caught up in the fallout. To those that didn’t, I’m sorry that we did not figure out an easier way to collect the information. This process has taken months, but Paolo and William did know about this issue as it was happening.
6. Stores have stock. As a Kickstarter backer, one of the most infuriating things is to see stock reach retail stores before you have received your rewards. Some people have been concerned about that with Operation Babylon stock. But the stores in question are those which ordered through the Kickstarter, and they did not receive any special treatment.
7. Hindsight is a marvelous thing, and I wish both parties had been able to keep the business split separate from the Kickstarter. But neither of us did. We both got caught up in the human side of the business dispute and let the Kickstarter backers get dragged in. I apologise for our part in this error.
I will leave you with one last thought. Battlefront has been in business for over 15 years. Our reputation and choices we have made along the way have not always been perfect, but our responsibility and drive to satisfy our customers is unparalleled. We are the company who give away each new edition of the Flames Of War rules when it changes so people don’t have to buy it. We are the company who make our relationship with our stores the first order of business. We are the company who manages multiple relationships with some of the biggest licensing companies in the world, and we are the company who, when we get something wrong, we admit it. We admit our part in not managing the relationship with Dust Studio better, and we have learnt the hard way that trust is earned, not given freely.
This truly is a first for us and we are upset that this has shaken people’s faith in who we are and how we operate. Outside of DUST, this is one of the most exciting times ever for us. I, my partner and the entire staff at Battlefront want nothing more than to get this resolved once and for all, so the stock gets to you and we can move on with a future that has no DUST in it. All we need is the list of what has been made so that at least the Kickstarter part of this saga can be resolved.
Yours,
John-Paul Brisigotti
CEO Battlefront Group.
Sidstyler wrote: Agreed, my opinion of both is pretty sour at this point. Backers are getting straight gak on right now and neither party really seems to care.
If you'll read the post above (in the spoiler) it says that BF is offering backers 3x their pledge level if they'll take stock from what BF has on hand. Seems like alot more than nothing.
Sidstyler wrote: Agreed, my opinion of both is pretty sour at this point. Backers are getting straight gak on right now and neither party really seems to care.
If you'll read the post above (in the spoiler) it says that BF is offering backers 3x their pledge level if they'll take stock from what BF has on hand. Seems like alot more than nothing.
It is great to get product... for a dead game? I mean, that is like putting a band-aid on terminal cancer. With Dust Studios leaving Battlefront, that nixes Dust: Battlefield and hell, Dust: Warfare is essentially dead now anyhow. Only Tactics will be a going thing and that was a niche game and will probably stay one. The only reason Dust "broke out" was because of FFG's hard work (along with Andy Chambers and Mack Martin) and Warfare. Without that, Dust would still be a marginal board game, imo.
If I was a backer, I would take the cash refund and eBay my Dust stuff ASAP.
Sidstyler wrote: Agreed, my opinion of both is pretty sour at this point. Backers are getting straight gak on right now and neither party really seems to care.
If you'll read the post above (in the spoiler) it says that BF is offering backers 3x their pledge level if they'll take stock from what BF has on hand. Seems like alot more than nothing.
It is great to get product... for a dead game? I mean, that is like putting a band-aid on terminal cancer. With Dust Studios leaving Battlefront, that nixes Dust: Battlefield and hell, Dust: Warfare is essentially dead now anyhow. Only Tactics will be a going thing and that was a niche game and will probably stay one. The only reason Dust "broke out" was because of FFG's hard work (along with Andy Chambers and Mack Martin) and Warfare. Without that, Dust would still be a marginal board game, imo.
If I was a backer, I would take the cash refund and eBay my Dust stuff ASAP.
What would be a better solution at this point?
You can get 1/5 of your money and have 1/5 of your money (1/5 is all that's left to divide among the backers), or you can get 3 times as much stuff and have at least a chance of blowing it out on ebay and getting back your $. Plus you still have the option of keeping the figs and having them to use with whatever game survives or however the game is reborn. I think I know which one I'd take.
I'm still not convinced that BF is blameless, but given the unfunded add-ons and the failure of DS to inform them of FFG's ability to hold up sales, I think BF is offering backers an extremely good deal.
I would still rather have the cash. Ever since Paolo pulled from FFG it has been spiraling, long before even the Kickstarter fiasco. I am not assigning blame or anything, because I rather dislike both parties at this point, but minis for a dead game vs cash to buy minis for a living one - I know what I would do. Even if you can eBay the 3x value deal, how much can you realistically sell them for with so many retailers doing 50% or more off nowadays?
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I would still rather have the cash. Ever since Paolo pulled from FFG it has been spiraling, long before even the Kickstarter fiasco. I am not assigning blame or anything, because I rather dislike both parties at this point, but minis for a dead game vs cash to buy minis for a living one - I know what I would do. Even if you can eBay the 3x value deal, how much can you realistically sell them for with so many retailers doing 50% or more off nowadays?
If the retailer is selling for 50% of MSRP, you undercut them and sell for 33% of MSRP, and you'll still end up with 100% of your investment back. Sure it's a hassle and it sucks all round. However it speaks well of BF that they're willing to do this and ship 3x the stuff on their own dime to try and make it right with customers. That's alot better than you'd get from some of the other KS's that have gone belly up.
I didn't go in on this KS, but I'd be satisfied (not happy, but satisfied) if a KS I was invested in died and the company said we can't get you the product, but you can get 3x of much stuff that you select from our current selection. Of course it can't be overlooked that it works out well for BF too as it helps them get rid of their stock of DUST products that they will shortly no longer be selling.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I would still rather have the cash. Ever since Paolo pulled from FFG it has been spiraling, long before even the Kickstarter fiasco. I am not assigning blame or anything, because I rather dislike both parties at this point, but minis for a dead game vs cash to buy minis for a living one - I know what I would do. Even if you can eBay the 3x value deal, how much can you realistically sell them for with so many retailers doing 50% or more off nowadays?
If the retailer is selling for 50% of MSRP, you undercut them and sell for 33% of MSRP, and you'll still end up with 100% of your investment back. Sure it's a hassle and it sucks all round. However it speaks well of BF that they're willing to do this and ship 3x the stuff on their own dime to try and make it right with customers. That's alot better than you'd get from some of the other KS's that have gone belly up.
I didn't go in on this KS, but I'd be satisfied (not happy, but satisfied) if a KS I was invested in died and the company said we can't get you the product, but you can get 3x of much stuff that you select from our current selection. Of course it can't be overlooked that it works out well for BF too as it helps them get rid of their stock of DUST products that they will shortly no longer be selling.
Don't forget the eBay fees and cost of shipping product to all sorts of buyers. That adds up. And it is 40-80% off at Miniature Market, so that is going to be hard to undercut going forward. And then you also need to hope people actually buy your stuff, too. In the end, I would take the sure-bet and go for cash, but that is just me. I am sure a load of people will make back a lot via trades/sales with that 3x option. I am just too much of a pragmatist, so I wouldn't double-down on risk after a failed Kickstarter.
Don't forget the eBay fees and cost of shipping product to all sorts of buyers. That adds up. And it is 40-80% off at Miniature Market, so that is going to be hard to undercut going forward. And then you also need to hope people actually buy your stuff, too. In the end, I would take the sure-bet and go for cash, but that is just me. I am sure a load of people will make back a lot via trades/sales with that 3x option. I am just too much of a pragmatist, so I wouldn't double-down on risk after a failed Kickstarter.
That's your choice, but remember that you'll only get 1/5 (20%) of the cash you initially paid.
Even if you took a huge hit and blew everything out at 20% of retail and ate the ebay costs (everyone charges shipping, so that's not really an issue), you'd still make over half your money back. 50% is alot more than 20%.
Don't forget the eBay fees and cost of shipping product to all sorts of buyers. That adds up. And it is 40-80% off at Miniature Market, so that is going to be hard to undercut going forward. And then you also need to hope people actually buy your stuff, too. In the end, I would take the sure-bet and go for cash, but that is just me. I am sure a load of people will make back a lot via trades/sales with that 3x option. I am just too much of a pragmatist, so I wouldn't double-down on risk after a failed Kickstarter.
That's your choice, but remember that you'll only get 1/5 (20%) of the cash you initially paid.
Even if you took a huge hit and blew everything out at 20% of retail and ate the ebay costs (everyone charges shipping, so that's not really an issue), you'd still make over half your money back. 50% is alot more than 20%.
Not exactly sure where the 1/5th thing is coming from. I thought BF said it would refund people. I can't imagine it is going to be less than what was paid out, otherwise it isn't much of a refund.
Not exactly sure where the 1/5th thing is coming from. I thought BF said it would refund people. I can't imagine it is going to be less than what was paid out, otherwise it isn't much of a refund.
BF says it will refund folks in a pro-rata manner from the funds remaining. From their letter:
1. Cash Refund: We will process your refund based on the funds remaining from the project on a pro-rata basis. We collected $571,937 in total, from the Kickstarter campaign and the Pledge Manager. $50,647 went in fees to Kickstarter and PayPal. We have paid Dust Studio 72.5% of the remaining money, $378,007, and spent another $27,653 on the first wave of shipping. This leaves $115,330, which is then enough to pay for the remaining ‘Wave Two’ stock, assuming it is made.
You will get a portion of this remaining balance, depending on what rewards you have already received in ‘Wave 1’. The processing of these claims will be slow as there is no automated way to do this, so they have to be done one at a time after consultation with each backer. Payments will start to come out from the end of May, and will take about two months to get completed.
I could be reading it wrong, but it looks like the KS brought in about 571k, and after paying, spending, etc, they've got 115k -or 1/5- of the money left. If they truely are doing it pro-rata (proportionally?) they each person is entitled to about 1/5 of whatever $ they put in. They could wait to see who takes the 300% of stock product deal and then distribute that, but I'm pretty sure they'll be applying those folks portion of the remaining cash towards the value of what they send them.
Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
It looks like this kickstarter is going to deliver on wave 2 after all. Apparently, BF had simply missed the list of completed miniatures before, and just had to have it mailed to them again.
It is possible that this delivery will turn the game's spiral around (we all love to have new minis in our hands, and in that excitement, gamers might forgive all of this nonesense).
Where is it posted that the dog ate their email... I mean they accidently missed the info that they've needed for so long? I'm curious how 2nd/3rd+ hand the info is.
It looks like this kickstarter is going to deliver on wave 2 after all. Apparently, BF had simply missed the list of completed miniatures before, and just had to have it mailed to them again.
OMFG, are they fething kidding us?
All it took was a few dozen backers grabbing BF by the nuts and giving a squeeze to get a response. Going through the credit card companies makes a big difference, because those guys don't have any stake in the game. To AmEx, Visa, MC, it's just business. And whenever somebody says "it's just business", you can bet some seriously cold gak is going down. Seeing a massive pattern of chargebacks for fraud pop up, (and likely freezing BF's credit lines) yeah, that probably got BF's attention.
It seems that DS should have pushed the backers to their CC companies for chargeback disputes a lot sooner.
I hope that update is true. Not because I want the backers to get their stuff (I do...) but because the drama is so absurd I'm laughing out tears here. I want someone to make a docudrama out of this.
odinsgrandson wrote: Update:
It is possible that this delivery will turn the game's spiral around...
I wouldn't hold your breath. Unless I am mistaken, Dust Studio and BF are still parting ways, this that ends Battlefield as a viable Dust game. Warfare is dead. So really, it is Dust Studios peddling Tactics on their own.
Not sure how hot a commodity that will be in this market, given their history and attitude.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Unless I am mistaken, Dust Studio and BF are still parting ways, this that ends Battlefield as a viable Dust game. Warfare is dead.
So really, it is Dust Studios peddling Tactics on their own.
Yeah, this is an ugly divorce. DS is going to be the unemployed single mom with zero alimony, and BF is walking away.
Tactics is the board game, where you have to play on the printed tiles, right? Gotta say, I'd far rather play Dust on a 4' x 6' battlefield than a 12" tile. If Dust wants to force play on tiles, yeah, that's another nail in the coffin.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Unless I am mistaken, Dust Studio and BF are still parting ways, this that ends Battlefield as a viable Dust game. Warfare is dead.
So really, it is Dust Studios peddling Tactics on their own.
Yeah, this is an ugly divorce. DS is going to be the unemployed single mom with zero alimony, and BF is walking away.
Tactics is the board game, where you have to play on the printed tiles, right? Gotta say, I'd far rather play Dust on a 4' x 6' battlefield than a 12" tile. If Dust wants to force play on tiles, yeah, that's another nail in the coffin.
Sadly, DS/BF split should kill Battlefield and as said, Warfare was killed by DS and BF after the switch from FFG. So yea, you are basically stuck playing unsupported games or Tactics. Not that people won't keep the other games alive somewhat, but it isn't going to have the heft behind it a properly supported game would have.
Such a shame, too, because Warfare was a brilliant game.
I think BF did a great job rewriting the rules. They get you in with the boardgame, then it's fairly simple to go to a regular Wargame with some additional rules once you have the basics (Tactics). I thought it was a great system (I've played just about everything) and it was working to get some of our friends that only Board Game into playing some Tabletop stuff.
Such a shame, too, because Warfare was a brilliant game.
Warfare suffers serious game balance issues due to it's core mechanics. It's OK if you stick to the middle of the road in stats, but as get farther from the center the balance issues manifest themselves in serious ways. Due to the cover mechanics used you had mathematical impossibilities where models were doomed if the attacker made just average numbers of hits. The artificially imposed force organization charts and lack of selection thereof made for rigid, similar appearing lists for the various Factions. An antiquated "You-Go, I-Go" turn structure appeals primarily to the 40K crowd. Yes, it's just that brilliant.
Battlefield is supremely more balanced on every level and allows flexible force composition, true alternating activations and easy conversion from tile based Tactics play to full on 4x6 tabletop 3D play. Whatever emerges from the ashes of the Battlefront debacle, it will be better than Warfare.
Such a shame, too, because Warfare was a brilliant game.
Warfare suffers serious game balance issues due to it's core mechanics. It's OK if you stick to the middle of the road in stats, but as get farther from the center the balance issues manifest themselves in serious ways. Due to the cover mechanics used you had mathematical impossibilities where models were doomed if the attacker made just average numbers of hits. The artificially imposed force organization charts and lack of selection thereof made for rigid, similar appearing lists for the various Factions. An antiquated "You-Go, I-Go" turn structure appeals primarily to the 40K crowd. Yes, it's just that brilliant.
Battlefield is supremely more balanced on every level and allows flexible force composition, true alternating activations and easy conversion from tile based Tactics play to full on 4x6 tabletop 3D play. Whatever emerges from the ashes of the Battlefront debacle, it will be better than Warfare.
You have to understand and respect what FFG did though. The core rules were fantastic and a true 2nd Edition would have fixed many of the glaring issues that their team was well aware of by the time Paolo took Dust from them. In fact, an FAQ was set to be released that fixed a lot of stuff, but this didn't materialize due to the switch. I don't mind the "antiquated" You-Go-I-Go thing, because the rest of the rules were so good. But yea, the way the FOC was handled needed work, but I enjoyed their attempts to keep folding in new units with so little info coming from Dust Studio. I saw a lot of promise coming down the road from FFG, but that is sadly no more. Possibly the biggest mistake Paolo made for his franchise, imo.
Also, you are making a gross assumption that anything will rise from these ashes. As I said, I figure it will just be fan-supported attempts and Dust Tactics V3 that survive.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
Fair enough, but who would you sue?
Everyone?
The only problem is that "donating" to a Kickstarter is no different from buying stock or any other form of investment.
You have little recourse to recoup your losses if the Kickstarter does not work.
This is not to say that people cannot try to do so (companies and corporations are sued by investors or stockholders all the time for loss of value). The problem is that with a Kickstarter there is not a lot that can be claimed in a suit that the company could not protect with some sort of bankruptcy or similar action.
And, without seeing the email exachanges between the two parties, a lawsuit could wind up being a waste of time.
Eilif wrote: Didn't Paolo say somewhere that Warfare was being handed to someone trusted to develop it? Or was that Battlefield?
Would have to be Warfare. I think the ownership of Battlefield is a major untouched sticking point in the DS/BF breakup. BF feels they have rights to it and while DS may not want to support it directly, I cannot see anyone other than a garage club taking on the Battlefield system without BF's blessing.
It looks like this kickstarter is going to deliver on wave 2 after all. Apparently, BF had simply missed the list of completed miniatures before, and just had to have it mailed to them again.
It is possible that this delivery will turn the game's spiral around (we all love to have new minis in our hands, and in that excitement, gamers might forgive all of this nonesense).
But we'll have to wait and see.
I still honestly don't care for either side, but I wanted to counter some FUD put out by this poster.
I'd like to point out that nowhere, anywhere is any confirmed info that BF "simply missed" the list of produced miniatures.
Moreover, the last info from Dust (not a reliable source by any means, and neither is BF) was this:
Ghrik wrote: Just received this email from DS. Perhaps both parties start behaving like grownups again...
Dear Backer,
We received an email from Battlefront yesterday: they said they would check the production list and issue a purchase order Monday.
[...]
Sincerely,
Dust Studio Team
Which only says that Battlefront now has a production list from which to issue a purchase order. This means there's now a proper paper trail, and that stuff is beginning to be worked out.
Nowhere does it say that BF has had this production list from the beginning. Especially since BF has been adamant in saying that it was one of the things it's been waiting for. Essentially they were waiting on more paperwork which could be used for legal purposes. Although honestly there's no concrete public info, so it's up to who you subjectively believe, rather than who is actually right or wrong.
To me, it seems Dust Studio avoids mentioning when exactly it sent the production list, and indeed, my own conjecture is that they finally sent it recently in response to BF's thorough rebuttal of Dust Studio's claims.
But, less maliciously, it may also be differences in business style that caused this issue as well. It may have been that the Chinese factory that actually owns Dust Studio was simply used to just telling people that it had produced everything and expected payment in full. Whereas BF, a NZ business expected a lot more concrete info. Then again, when you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of dollars, you kind of always want a paper trail.
A message from Dust Studio William Yau
BF gave us a list for wave 2 on Nov 2014 without any payment, even though we had asked many times but no money was paid for wave 2. We don’t want to hold the production and make backers waiting forever, we decided to go ahead and produced them anyway. But with limited resources, the production takes more time. We could have done it on Feb if we were paid. Anyway, the production was done now.
BF asked for the list of production and I sent John-Paul the CEO and Peter the owner the list repeatedly on
10 Nov 2014
17 Dec 2014
8 Apr 2015
We had email back and forth with the same email subject so they should not miss the list. Anyway, since they asked for it, I sent the list just now again. The list is exactly the same as they provided us on Nov, so I think both parties is well aware that we are talking about the same qty.
Let’s see if this is true now. “Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!”
A message from Dust Studio William Yau
BF gave us a list for wave 2 on Nov 2014 without any payment, even though we had asked many times but no money was paid for wave 2. We don’t want to hold the production and make backers waiting forever, we decided to go ahead and produced them anyway. But with limited resources, the production takes more time. We could have done it on Feb if we were paid. Anyway, the production was done now.
BF asked for the list of production and I sent John-Paul the CEO and Peter the owner the list repeatedly on
10 Nov 2014
17 Dec 2014
8 Apr 2015
We had email back and forth with the same email subject so they should not miss the list. Anyway, since they asked for it, I sent the list just now again. The list is exactly the same as they provided us on Nov, so I think both parties is well aware that we are talking about the same qty.
Let’s see if this is true now. “Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!”
That timeline doesn't work out. Yau is claiming to have sent the list of actual produced goods before starting to actually produce goods. What Yau is saying he sent has to be an invoice. What Battlefront wanted was an inventory.
A message from Dust Studio William Yau
BF gave us a list for wave 2 on Nov 2014 without any payment, even though we had asked many times but no money was paid for wave 2. We don’t want to hold the production and make backers waiting forever, we decided to go ahead and produced them anyway. But with limited resources, the production takes more time. We could have done it on Feb if we were paid. Anyway, the production was done now.
BF asked for the list of production and I sent John-Paul the CEO and Peter the owner the list repeatedly on
10 Nov 2014
17 Dec 2014
8 Apr 2015
We had email back and forth with the same email subject so they should not miss the list. Anyway, since they asked for it, I sent the list just now again. The list is exactly the same as they provided us on Nov, so I think both parties is well aware that we are talking about the same qty.
Let’s see if this is true now. “Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!”
That timeline doesn't work out. Yau is claiming to have sent the list of actual produced goods before starting to actually produce goods. What Yau is saying he sent has to be an invoice. What Battlefront wanted was an inventory.
yep, if this doesn't show that Dust studios is being shady and trying to come out clean.. I don't know what to say. As a person who loved Duat, as soon as I saw the fantasy flight break up, I knew there was going to be more trouble. Now this is silly and any other dust fans should be insulted. They are bold enough to say here is the list when it's not the list. It's just a invoice(crappy one at that) and does back down to the heart of the issue around freebies. I would just stay far away from them.
Also if you look at their Facebook, so many people are posting pictures of warfare the game on terrain and they don't even want to support it. They love to cut their nose off and shoot themselves in the foot.
Eilif wrote: Didn't Paolo say somewhere that Warfare was being handed to someone trusted to develop it? Or was that Battlefield?
They gave it to a fan to work on. That is it. It isn't in the hands of Battlefront or Dust Studio and I highly, highly doubt it will ever see real support beyond some pdf releases to try to pretend it didn't die when it went from FFG to BF.
It did though, because BF fundamentally didn't understand (or care) about Warfare. Very sad.
Crimson Devil wrote: I thought it was Paolo's hate and that some of the rights are still owned by FFG that was responsible for killing it?
I was very into the game at the point of the switch-over and their absolute silence on all things Warfare undercut its growth immensely. Then, they did the "Open Beta" of Achilles, which was a farce. They basically copy-pasted units from Tactics and did little to fix those issues, despite a great FFG playtest prior that they scrapped for zero reason. Anyhow, they spent all their time focused on Battlefield and Tactics, so Warfare got to be even more of a red-headed stepchild than it already was.
Paolo's dislike of it made it worse. Also, from what I recall FFG signed off on it entirely (at least, that is what they said, I believe). The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
Crimson Devil wrote: I thought it was Paolo's hate and that some of the rights are still owned by FFG that was responsible for killing it?
I was very into the game at the point of the switch-over and their absolute silence on all things Warfare undercut its growth immensely. Then, they did the "Open Beta" of Achilles, which was a farce. They basically copy-pasted units from Tactics and did little to fix those issues, despite a great FFG playtest prior that they scrapped for zero reason. Anyhow, they spent all their time focused on Battlefield and Tactics, so Warfare got to be even more of a red-headed stepchild than it already was.
Paolo's dislike of it made it worse. Also, from what I recall FFG signed off on it entirely (at least, that is what they said, I believe). The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: . The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
Not unreasonable, but if -as BF says- they weren't informed of this, that's a pretty big failure of disclosure.
Noir wrote: And the fact only FFG could sell a starter box.
There was no Warfare or Battlefield start boxes at first. They did eventually release army boxes. Not sure if it was a legal thing or not that they could not make Warfare or Battlefield starters or not. Not a lawyer.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: . The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
Not unreasonable, but if -as BF says- they weren't informed of this, that's a pretty big failure of disclosure.
A failure to disclose from Dust Studio, yes. I think I will always lament the move from FFG and this goof really shows the switch-up to BF was doomed from the outset, if that claim is true.
MetalOxide wrote: Dust is a pretty decent game, and the minis are awesome. I'd hate to see it die. I'm sure that in the right hands it could do well.
Who would take it on now? Three distributors later and I can't imagine any serious company would want to work with the drama queen Paolo and Dust Studios.
Wasn't Imperial Assault supposed to be able to be played as a wargame? I seem to remember having read something like that when it was announced.
On topic, I think that Dust Tactics is an amazing game for when you don't want to go through the hassle of a wargame. The fact that you can set up, play, and pack everything away in very little time and storage does not take up a lot of space shouldn't be underestimated.
However, choosing to axe Warfare when there clearly was demand for a wargame ruleset was a poor decision, obviously. It's the dangers of having one figure head, I guess. But it should have been obvious that there was a demand and a need for a good wargame ruleset of somesort. Hell, just imagine Dust with the Bolt Action ruleset!
Concerning wether or not it is dying... in Austria it has been dead for all intents and purposes for years now. No game shop carries it, you can hardly get anything through amazon or any retailer that isn't UK or overseas based. Next to no one ever heard about it.
It's a shame, really. The miniatures are great, it's decently priced and Tactics is a really good game.
Korraz wrote: Wasn't Imperial Assault supposed to be able to be played as a wargame? I seem to remember having read something like that when it was announced.
SW:Imperial Assault has 2 'modes' of play given in the box. There is the Descent/RPG style story mode campaign, and a 'skirmish' mode for one off games that uses most of the main rules, with some changes and omitting the RPG style bits.
malfred wrote: Are the rules similar in any way? (SW: Assault vs. Dust I mean)
Yes they are similar. You can get both on FFG's website, and they are both a hot mess. Love the figures, but the rules set itself for both games are gawdawful complex.
I'm starting the thought that the 100.00 price is to hire some kids to playtest the games, and give them some technical advice on why its garbage to write complex rules sets for simple board/ gridsquare battlefield games.
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Korraz wrote: Wasn't Imperial Assault supposed to be able to be played as a wargame? I seem to remember having read something like that when it was announced.
On topic, I think that Dust Tactics is an amazing game for when you don't want to go through the hassle of a wargame. The fact that you can set up, play, and pack everything away in very little time and storage does not take up a lot of space shouldn't be underestimated.
However, choosing to axe Warfare when there clearly was demand for a wargame ruleset was a poor decision, obviously. It's the dangers of having one figure head, I guess. But it should have been obvious that there was a demand and a need for a good wargame ruleset of somesort. Hell, just imagine Dust with the Bolt Action ruleset!
Concerning wether or not it is dying... in Austria it has been dead for all intents and purposes for years now. No game shop carries it, you can hardly get anything through amazon or any retailer that isn't UK or overseas based. Next to no one ever heard about it.
It's a shame, really. The miniatures are great, it's decently priced and Tactics is a really good game.
Theres no reason why you can't play it as a wargame. In fact, after I can scrounge up the opening costs, I'm planning on gathering up a few squads of stormtroopers and Rebels. I'm starting to wonder why they are not crossing over figures for the RPG's, as well. Wouldn't hurt sales a bit to 3d rend up the opening figures from the RPG's.
malfred wrote: Are the rules similar in any way? (SW: Assault vs. Dust I mean)
Yes they are similar. You can get both on FFG's website, and they are both a hot mess. Love the figures, but the rules set itself for both games are gawdawful complex.
I'm starting the thought that the 100.00 price is to hire some kids to playtest the games, and give them some technical advice on why its garbage to write complex rules sets for simple board/ gridsquare battlefield games.
Sedition Wars is better penance for this sort of thing. Even the basic resolution mechanic of SedWars will have them pulling their hair out.
Boss GreenNutz wrote: DUST is huge here if you need a place to play. They even have enough interest and folks playing to hold tourneys. It isn't dead everywhere.
I have to admit... I don't play the game but I would really fancy it.... only been aware of it for a few months and would hate to think it was going to die out before I had even got my hands on some of those models... which... IMHO are glorious!
I am in no ways well informed but scanning briefly back through this thread.. it would seem to be a real shame that the supporters and "pledgers" will have to suffer because of a cock up / disagreement with 2 supplier companies & the creator....
Anyway.... hopefully I can get my butt in gear and get involved soon!
Anyway.... hopefully I can get my butt in gear and get involved soon!
Don't. At the least, you can get the models knowing there will invariably be only one variant (Tactics) to play, if any. But I wouldn't waste much money - so get those fire sale prices, if you really want them, but this game is dead, dead, dead.
One or two holdout stores where Paolo diehards reside won't keep the turmoil from ruining the franchise. With Battlefield doomed due to the DS/BF split, and Warfare dead in the water and Tactics being a fringe game from a company unlikely to get a new distributor, enter at your own risk.
I disagree. The models are nice and the deals/discounts/clearances make them very cheap for the amount that you get at this point. As long as he goes in eyes wide open knowing that even if he finds or starts a local scene that it will likely eventually fail, I say go for it.
warboss wrote: I disagree. The models are nice and the deals/discounts/clearances make them very cheap for the amount that you get at this point. As long as he goes in eyes wide open knowing that even if he finds or starts a local scene that it will likely eventually fail, I say go for it.
I did mention that. But honestly, if I spent any money on it at all, it would be for the vehicles/walkers. Those are at least hard plastic and pretty good detail wise. Would Ork and AdMech up nicely or serve for fun Weird Wars games for Bolt Action. So, plenty of use, but Dust as a gaming franchise is dead.
I'm planning to pick up some of the walkers for conversions for the admech army I'll probably never even halfway finish. Some of the axis mechs would make good proxies for the dunecrawlers, and the lighter mechs for ironstriders
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah the infantry is more of a soft rubbery kind of action figure plastic, but the vehicles are hard plastic. Even though it's cheap rubbery plastic I always thought the infantry still had nice detail though.
malfred wrote: Are the infantry and vehicles different plastics?
Yea, the early run infantry was a bendy plastic, which was really not great, but was cheap enough to not be a major issue. The later run have gradually become harder plastics, I have heard. The vehicles are a hard plastic and pretty high quality for the price.
Necros wrote: I'm planning to pick up some of the walkers for conversions for the admech army I'll probably never even halfway finish. Some of the axis mechs would make good proxies for the dunecrawlers, and the lighter mechs for ironstriders
Yea, the Allied and Axis Light Walkers would be great Ironstriders with the right bits. The Axis quadrupedal heavies definitely would be solid Dunecrawler proxies, but even some of the bipedal ones would work too.
You keep saying that over and over again, but what do you base that on?
To me, a game is dead when A) nobody is playing it any more, and B) no new products is produced. Neither is true for Dust. Sure, it's not as hot and popular as it was 1-2 years ago (mostly due to the Epic Kickstarter fail), but there's still people playing Dust of all flavors. Also, Dust Studio has the rights to all things Dust, meaning they can use and produce things for Tactics, Battlefield and Warfare as they see fit. They have publicly stated that they don't have time/energy to put on Warfare, which is why they fairly recently licenced it out.
From the official webpage (worldofdust.net):
"Warfare players can rest easy, knowing that their preferred form of the game will continue to be supported. Paolo has given Warfare over to be fan-created and controlled. Gregory Withrow and the other Warfare players in his team have some awesome things planned for Warfare! Warfare 2.0 is on its way, along with Ad Hoc Platoons.
Dust Tactics fans, don't worry - Paolo has said that a new rulebook for Dust 3.0 is in the works, as well as new cards, so you will not be forgotten!"
Sorry to hop back in....... well.. I am waiting on the outcome of a couple of E-Bay bids.... but hopefully I will be the owner of a couple of the SSA Mech walkers..... and I think I will leave it there... I will 40k them up a bit and put them in a diorama or something.... as mentioned by a few people previous... they are great looking models... just a shame theres a lot of negativity (maybe deservedly) about the game ..... plus... no one I know plays it anyway! lol
A game that isn't, or won't be actively supported, or is currently undergoing its own death spiral.
Dust was already headed into a death spiral before this, but it could have been avoided. This latest bout of controversy nudged them into the vortex of that death spiral.
You may want to argue semantics, but Dust has practically written own own death certificate. Going through 3 different publishers all with varying levels of trouble. Way too much leftover stock on shelves for the retailers and distributors that gave them not one, but two chances. A public kickstarter failing, and even more public legal threats, only to back off said threats. No one will touch the game again business-wise.
Like any game, there will always be players and models floating about. I think there's still VOR and Starship Troopers minis still being used, but those two games are absolutely dead by any measure.
Dust may pull itself out of the abyss, but only with amazing leadership, vision, and business acumen, all of which are clearly in short supply for this project. Even Dust itself is not an original idea.
You keep saying that over and over again, but what do you base that on?
To me, a game is dead when A) nobody is playing it any more, and B) no new products is produced. Neither is true for Dust. Sure, it's not as hot and popular as it was 1-2 years ago (mostly due to the Epic Kickstarter fail), but there's still people playing Dust of all flavors. Also, Dust Studio has the rights to all things Dust, meaning they can use and produce things for Tactics, Battlefield and Warfare as they see fit. They have publicly stated that they don't have time/energy to put on Warfare, which is why they fairly recently licenced it out.
From the official webpage (worldofdust.net):
"Warfare players can rest easy, knowing that their preferred form of the game will continue to be supported. Paolo has given Warfare over to be fan-created and controlled. Gregory Withrow and the other Warfare players in his team have some awesome things planned for Warfare! Warfare 2.0 is on its way, along with Ad Hoc Platoons.
Dust Tactics fans, don't worry - Paolo has said that a new rulebook for Dust 3.0 is in the works, as well as new cards, so you will not be forgotten!"
So, again, how do you define "dead game", Mr em_en_oh_pee?
Warfare is to be "fan-created and controlled". So, this is as dead as Necromunda or Epic. Yes, people play it, but it is no longer officially supported and entirely reliant on the fans to produce content. Any game without official, published content and material support is dead.
Battlefield seems like it will be a casualty of the Battlefront / Dust Studio split, since it was a product of the former and IP of the latter. Can't imagine they will continue supporting it after the Kickstarter debacle is resolved (whenever that is). So, without official, published content and material support, also dead.
Tactics now gets to return to "fringe game" status. Paolo has gone through three distributors now - AEG, FFG, and BF. Word is he will just be distributing himself now. So Tactics isn't dead, but I question is availability. Plus, it was never a huge deal in the first place. Dust came to the forefront when Warfare released and Battlefield breathed a bit of life into it once BF made it clear they weren't really interested in Warfare. Plus, that game is going to have a miserable time going when you realize you can get 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 and eventually 3.0 rules depending on what box you buy and from who.
So there, Tactics isn't really dead, per se. Just back to the fringe boardgame that it was for years before Warfare. Feel free to pick that up, if it is your cup of tea. I will continue to lament the passing of Warfare from the company who did it best - FFG and the overall demise of the franchise as a real contender among wargames.
Dust is definitely dead:
- Existing product under liquidation.
- No new product under development.
- No potential future sales that drive profit for retail.
The only reason new players are buying Dust is because the models are dirt cheap, so they're great for conversions for other stuff. Not to actually play the game.
FFG has set a price point for Dust that is roughly 50% of what the old MSRP was. And they hold that point. Buyers now expect (and rightly presume) such pricing to be "fair" for Dust product. Dust cannot possibly launch new product into retail, because there is no margin.
It's dead, try not to confuse the twitches of rigor mortis for life.
Grot 6 wrote: Hey,Paolo, is that you? One post, all that background info..... hmmmm........
Whats going on with that court case again?
What's going on with that KS project again?
Why are you AT43ing that game?
Why Sockmonkey it, why not just join the conversation?
:-) No, I'm not Paolo. I just read stuff on the interwebz, and now I found this thread on a forum I don't normally visit. I read some posts with opinions that I believe are not true, and I just fealt like pointing that out. That's all.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Dust is definitely dead:
- Existing product under liquidation.
- No new product under development.
- No potential future sales that drive profit for retail.
The only reason new players are buying Dust is because the models are dirt cheap, so they're great for conversions for other stuff. Not to actually play the game.
FFG has set a price point for Dust that is roughly 50% of what the old MSRP was. And they hold that point. Buyers now expect (and rightly presume) such pricing to be "fair" for Dust product. Dust cannot possibly launch new product into retail, because there is no margin.
It's dead, try not to confuse the twitches of rigor mortis for life.
You can disagree with my opinion all day. Won't change the facts, which is that Paolo did a real number on his franchise, isn't actively supporting two of the three systems for said franchise, and will be parting ways with his third distributor soon after a painful Kickstarter (on top of a bad, slow, unresponsive move to BF).
In the end, player faith has generally been shaken. I ran Dust-War.com, I was a playtester and contributor for Warfare, and I can tell you I will not or ever again purchase anything Dust-related. It has been utterly mismanaged for quite a while now and I have zero faith in Paolo, Dust Studios, or any future distributor bold/brave enough to take on this damaged franchise.
I saw that Paolo ran his mouth, but I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with Dust to the point that I would have seen what was new. Which pictures showed the new product currently under development? Was it the wishlisting for something to happen a few years from now?
Paolo isn't independently wealthy to the point that he can fund development, tooling, production and distribution of new product. And it's not like anybody would give him money via Kickstarter after the latest debacle.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I saw that Paolo ran his mouth, but I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with Dust to the point that I would have seen what was new. Which pictures showed the new product currently under development? Was it the wishlisting for something to happen a few years from now?
Only the last couple of photos on the interview page had some new stuff. Here you can find some more photos of models not yet released if you are interested.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Paolo isn't independently wealthy to the point that he can fund development, tooling, production and distribution of new product.
I don't know anything about Paolo' s personal finances, or the finances of Dust Studio. Perhaps you could enlighten me if you have specific information, based on facts?
JohnHwangDD wrote: And it's not like anybody would give him money via Kickstarter after the latest debacle.
I agree. The whole Kickstarter mess is terrible, and I hope they stay away from it in the future.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I saw that Paolo ran his mouth, but I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with Dust to the point that I would have seen what was new. Which pictures showed the new product currently under development? Was it the wishlisting for something to happen a few years from now?
Only the last couple of photos on the interview page had some new stuff. Here you can find some more photos of models not yet released if you are interested.
And who is going to distribute these? Anyone? Who would take that risk?
JohnHwangDD wrote: I saw that Paolo ran his mouth, but I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with Dust to the point that I would have seen what was new. Which pictures showed the new product currently under development? Was it the wishlisting for something to happen a few years from now?
Only the last couple of photos on the interview page had some new stuff. Here you can find some more photos of models not yet released if you are interested.
And who is going to distribute these? Anyone? Who would take that risk?
That would be the legions of independently wealthy (but exceedingly stupid) local game store owners, flush with cash, who weren't burned by previous orders of Dust that got the bottom pulled out by the FFG liquidation.
And who is going to distribute these? Anyone? Who would take that risk?
I'd rather buy him out, bring DUST back over into the U.S. and make a kick ass IP out of it. This could easily be the next Warmachine or Malifaux if this was in the right hands. Paolo had his time with it and blew it. Time to sell it off PP.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: And who is going to distribute these? Anyone? Who would take that risk?
I'd rather buy him out, bring DUST back over into the U.S. and make a kick ass IP out of it. This could easily be the next Warmachine or Malifaux if this was in the right hands. Paolo had his time with it and blew it. Time to sell it off PP.
The problem is that Paolo has a hugely inflated value of what he thinks Dust is worth, so you couldn't pay him enough, despite the property being worth the minimum $1, at most. And that's only if you don't have to take on the nonsense with FFG and KS and BF. If you have to start your Dust ownership by fixing those messes, you're doomed.
I got the big starter box just as they switched to the smaller set. Played it a handful of times and that was that.
Then last week I was talking to a friend who asked if I had heard about dust, we got the set out and played 4 games in an evening and by the time we had finished he had a full Russian force from eBay for very cheap
A few guys at the gaming club were also interested, seems like now is a good time to get back into it with all the discounted stock and people running from it.
Dust hast been dead pretty much for months now.
However, now there is a chance at resurrection. Will it come back from the dead? Maybe, there are games that were in far, far worse positions than Dust right now, namely: They didn't have a person behind them with the know how, contacts and drive to actually keep going. And yet, they came back. Might happen for Dust too.
Dust has never been big and it's not like it missed any final train. Yes, people will be pissed off, but at the same time quite a lot of people have never really heard about it. So, the potential for a comeback is real. Question is: Will they be able to give the people what they want?
It now appears that DUST can't even pay for assemblers in its factory, so they're selling the models unassembled.
The problem is that Paolo wants Dust to be a boardgame, but assembly is the kiss of death for any boardgame. If Paolo misunderstands his market to this extent, Dust is done.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It now appears that DUST can't even pay for assemblers in its factory, so they're selling the models unassembled.
The problem is that Paolo wants Dust to be a boardgame, but assembly is the kiss of death for any boardgame. If Paolo misunderstands his market to this extent, Dust is done.
Is that a change from the normal models? I was under the impression that the larger stuff was partially assembled... or are you referring to smaller things like infantry or the tiny walkers needing assembly now?
JohnHwangDD wrote: It now appears that DUST can't even pay for assemblers in its factory, so they're selling the models unassembled.
The problem is that Paolo wants Dust to be a boardgame, but assembly is the kiss of death for any boardgame. If Paolo misunderstands his market to this extent, Dust is done.
Is that a change from the normal models? I was under the impression that the larger stuff was partially assembled... or are you referring to smaller things like infantry or the tiny walkers needing assembly now?
It is. Dust is offering completely unassembled, unpainted models vs fully/partially-assembled, basecoated models today.
Ah, thanks. I'm ok with that actually but I would hope that they'd cut a bit off the retail price like 10% in that case.. The base coat is incredibly easy and I'd personally prefer to pose my big stompy robots myself.. if I were to get into dust which I won't. I also didn't know that the minis were officially 1:48 scale instead of officially measured in the "mm" scale. It's a bit of a fun fact for me.
Not sure why they are bothering with this. They aren't a serious wargame - now more than ever, with their wargame rules either dead or unsupported. This is not want board-gamers really want, so why even offer this? Seems like a potential cost-cutting measure if they move their whole line over to it and phase out the pre-primed and premium options, though that is just my conjecture.
In the end, I think they need to just throw in the towel for now and re-launch in a few years maybe. Just to let the bad taste get out of people's mouths from the BF transition and Kickstarter fiasco.
I'm not convinced that this means that all dust minis will be kits from here on out. There have been kit versions of some DUST models available for several months now.
warboss wrote: Maybe a token "we tried" attempt to go along with those fan licensed wargame specific rules they talked about a few weeks back?
If so, that is the typical approach to anything that isn't Dust Tactics. Half-assery.
Though maybe it has to do with the model-builder types that I used to see on the Dust FB group. Lots of converters and stuff on there who will eat this up.
And yea, "fan licensed" makes me chuckle. Basically, washed their hands of it. I wouldn't want to be that guy working on it, because that Warfare community got to be pretty toxic after a while and I can't imagine it has changed any.
DUST Studios has offered different kits and premium models on their own site for a while, it has nothing to do with their regular 'Pre-Built and Primed' line. Take a gander through their site, they even sell limited edition models and gear for the tanks. They have tank pilots and riders too.
And who is going to distribute these? Anyone? Who would take that risk?
I'd rather buy him out, bring DUST back over into the U.S. and make a kick ass IP out of it. This could easily be the next Warmachine or Malifaux if this was in the right hands. Paolo had his time with it and blew it. Time to sell it off PP.
Why? It's a well anyone can drink from. It's already halfway written and designed. It's sci-fi based on WW2 or painted illustrations on the tops of WW2 model kit boxes.
It's just Weird War II 2-fisted pulp stuff, a la AE WWII, SotTR/Incursion, Gear Krieg, Projekt X, Clockwork Goblin, (and to a lesser 'pure style' or only in some factions sense 40K, AT-43, SF3D/MacK, Alterra, Dreamforge EisenKern)
You get a book of "weird stuff they talked about or tried in WW2" like iceberg carriers, rocket gliders, land cruisers like the Ratt, or flying castle-super bombers, armored mega-blimps, subs with centipede legs...then you crap out some boxy turreted gun-armed mechs with rivets, put a hanomag or an M4 on legs and the stuff practically writes itself. Don't forget the stalhelms.
Usually it's an alt universe where a secret breakthrough invention, alien tech, or 'something from beyond' prolongs the war and lots of weird but familiar tech gets developed. And if you can get some hollow earth, zombies, dinosaurs, and a tripod in there, good on ya.
Dust seems to have merely blended the WW2 basics with over the top 'Metal Hurlant/Humanoids Publishing style'cheesecake. Most of the designs look like derivatives of AT-43 which seems to have been an earlier iteration of Paolo's WW2 concept that got turned into something else at the last second. A lot of people say that AT-43 was not After Trauma-43 originally but Alternate Timeline -43 and The Union was the Allies, the Red Bloc were the Soviets(the KV-47 walker sure looks a lot like the Kolossus armor) , and most of the Axis designs which were zombie-ish got shifted to ONI, a 2nd wave faction based on a ruthless and ghoulish mercenary corporation that wanted to spread a parasitic intelligent disease as much as possible. The gorillas (Vootie!) got their own space faction complete with astronaut bubble helms.
But there are pretty stark parallels between the two lines both in materials and design because they share a designer who was drinking from the WeirdWW2 well early on.
Dust seems to have merely blended the WW2 basics with over the top 'Metal Hurlant/Humanoids Publishing style'cheesecake. Most of the designs look like derivatives of AT-43 which seems to have been an earlier iteration of Paolo's WW2 concept that got turned into something else at the last second. A lot of people say that AT-43 was not After Trauma-43 originally but Alternate Timeline -43 and The Union was the Allies, the Red Bloc were the Soviets(the KV-47 walker sure looks a lot like the Kolossus armor) , and most of the Axis designs which were zombie-ish got shifted to ONI, a 2nd wave faction based on a ruthless and ghoulish mercenary corporation that wanted to spread a parasitic intelligent disease as much as possible. The gorillas (Vootie!) got their own space faction complete with astronaut bubble helms.
But there are pretty stark parallels between the two lines both in materials and design because they share a designer who was drinking from the WeirdWW2 well early on.
I heard that too. At-43 was supposed to be similar to what Dust became but ended up being more sci-fi-ish and PP thought the alternate history idea was good and did it himself.
And who is going to distribute these? Anyone? Who would take that risk?
I'd rather buy him out, bring DUST back over into the U.S. and make a kick ass IP out of it. This could easily be the next Warmachine or Malifaux if this was in the right hands. Paolo had his time with it and blew it. Time to sell it off PP.
Why? It's a well anyone can drink from. It's already halfway written and designed. It's sci-fi based on WW2 or painted illustrations on the tops of WW2 model kit boxes.
It's just Weird War II 2-fisted pulp stuff, a la AE WWII, SotTR/Incursion, Gear Krieg, Projekt X, Clockwork Goblin, (and to a lesser 'pure style' or only in some factions sense 40K, AT-43, SF3D/MacK, Alterra, Dreamforge EisenKern)
You get a book of "weird stuff they talked about or tried in WW2" like iceberg carriers, rocket gliders, land cruisers like the Ratt, or flying castle-super bombers, armored mega-blimps, subs with centipede legs...then you crap out some boxy turreted gun-armed mechs with rivets, put a hanomag or an M4 on legs and the stuff practically writes itself. Don't forget the stalhelms.
Usually it's an alt universe where a secret breakthrough invention, alien tech, or 'something from beyond' prolongs the war and lots of weird but familiar tech gets developed. And if you can get some hollow earth, zombies, dinosaurs, and a tripod in there, good on ya.
But there are pretty stark parallels between the two lines both in materials and design because they share a designer who was drinking from the WeirdWW2 well early on.
The shame is the existing minis which, particularly the vehicles, are genuinely excellent.
This isn't Defiance Games who had a couple of decent pieces of concept art to show and nothing else of value. To me the fact that the huge range of DUST models aren't being enjoyed by more gamers is a massive shame.
plus l do photography and graphic design even painting some prototypes. Vincent Fontaine our Art Director and Painter normally is in charge of painting and taking pictures, but when he is too busy l an happy to help him. My typical day at the Factory/Monastery, that is located in the industrial outskirts of Shenzhen China, starts early in the morning with a couple of hours of reading. l then show up at the office at 10 am and work until 10 pm. Two quick meal breaks and a lot of coffee+cigarillo breaks during our long day.
the baby, so he's abused his child. Time to let go.
