Un-cut all the units from the last book that were cut.
Shift some prices around on transports and hellhound variants.
Lumbering behemoth returns in some shape for russes.
For the love all that is alcoholic, give rough riders something.
AP3 on stormies does not justify their space marine level cost.
Special weapon and heavy weapon squads need access to the same wargear infantry squads do, including transports.
I'm sure many people here will want one or both of two things. The first is one of those super formation/decurion/warhost shenanigan. The second are regimental traits or doctrines. I'm not fundamentally opposed to those things, and I wouldn't be upset if they were included, but I don't feel they're necessary to fix the book.
That said, I'm 99.76482% positive the Guard will have a wide selection of formations, ranging from the useless (Warlord gets Fear!) to the broken (All transports and weapon upgrades are free!).
Book wise, bringing back more focus on regiments other than Cadia and Catachan would do a lot for me. And avoid the absolute trash MS Paint illustrations they're using now to show off colour schemes. Embarrassing.
Oh, and trash the Taurox. Purge from records. Delete with extreme prejudice. Show no mercy. Kill all who mention its name. Strike it from living memory.
Deathstrike Missile gains Strength D, with a +1 to whatever it rolls on the table.
It's a bloody ICBM. If Wraithguard are hucking around Strength D, Deathstrike Missiles get it. End of story.
Russes gain Lumbering Behemoth again. Squadron sizes are increased to 6 Russes.
Vendettas are cut, collared, and burnt. Vulture Gunship joins the Codex as a Fast Attack Squadron choice.
Armored Sentinel Squadrons become part of Infantry Platoons.
Scout Sentinel Squadrons become Troops choices.
Bullgryn and Ogryn become an upgrade for Infantry Platoons.
Militarum Tempestus Platoons gain a "Tempestus Special Weapons Squad" option.
Rough Riders are removed if they're not getting models, again. The concept is rather dated at this point anyways.
Taurox mounted Veteran Squads become labeled as "Reaction Squads" and get put into Fast Attack.
Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants gain the option to take Lasguns and gain the ability to issue Junior Officer Orders; but ONLY to their squad.
Veteran Squads equipped with Carapace Armor are granted Hellguns(I refuse to call them "Hotshot Lasguns", as "Hotshot" is the designation for the ammo packs being utilized not the gun itself).
Hydra Flak Tanks gain the ability to sacrifice Skyfire for their turn and allowing for them to shred infantry.
Vox-Casters increase Order Radius to any units equipped with Vox-Casters and allow for an Order to be issued to multiple units at the same time.
I could probably write a whole book of these; but this is what I would like to see.
Because it's lazy and stupid. It doesn't need to be its own item, and what's more it's lazy and stupid.
People whine about the Taurox? The Vendetta is about a hundred times worse.
If anything I'm ok with the points increase, but let them carry 12 models again...
Hahahaha, NOPE. It had no business being able to carry anyone to begin with, much less a full capacity.
You want a "gunship"?
Then get a gunship.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
Regimental (Chapter) tactics for a good number of the unique Regiments - you know the ones they highlight and go about in the actual Codex and then ignore in favour of but actually everyone is a Cadian
Lets face it AM regiments are usually more unique/diverse than mostly just wearing different coloured armour......
Mr Morden wrote: Regimental (Chapter) tactics for a good number of the unique Regiments - you know the ones they highlight and go about in the actual Codex and then ignore in favour of but actually everyone is a Cadian
Lets face it AM regiments are usually more unique/diverse than mostly just wearing different coloured armour......
They wont because they dont want to retool all the different cooler regiments since there are many 3rd party producer of better IG stuff.
Monkey head cadians are here to stay.
Obvious steel host type formations will be in place.
Hoping for wide pattern basilisk bombardmant that gives ignore cover.
Because it's lazy and stupid. It doesn't need to be its own item, and what's more it's lazy and stupid.
People whine about the Taurox? The Vendetta is about a hundred times worse.
If anything I'm ok with the points increase, but let them carry 12 models again...
Hahahaha, NOPE. It had no business being able to carry anyone to begin with, much less a full capacity.
You want a "gunship"?
Then get a gunship.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
I couldn't disagree with you more. But while we are on it, let's get rid of transport capacity in storm Ravens too
Because it's lazy and stupid. It doesn't need to be its own item, and what's more it's lazy and stupid.
People whine about the Taurox? The Vendetta is about a hundred times worse.
If anything I'm ok with the points increase, but let them carry 12 models again...
Hahahaha, NOPE. It had no business being able to carry anyone to begin with, much less a full capacity.
You want a "gunship"?
Then get a gunship.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
I couldn't disagree with you more. But while we are on it, let's get rid of transport capacity in storm Ravens too
Better yet - lets get rid of Storm Ravens, Centurions, Dredd Knights, Logans Sleigh and other abombinations
They wont because they dont want to retool all the different cooler regiments since there are many 3rd party producer of better IG stuff.
Yeah I agree re the regimentsa and GW BUT having them would make the Codex better IMO
Because it's lazy and stupid. It doesn't need to be its own item, and what's more it's lazy and stupid.
People whine about the Taurox? The Vendetta is about a hundred times worse.
If anything I'm ok with the points increase, but let them carry 12 models again...
Hahahaha, NOPE. It had no business being able to carry anyone to begin with, much less a full capacity.
You want a "gunship"?
Then get a gunship.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
I couldn't disagree with you more. But while we are on it, let's get rid of transport capacity in storm Ravens too
Do Stormravens have a very specific statement about
The Vendetta cuts its transport capacity to make room for additional fuel cells and servo-capacitors.
?
My problem isn't simply with the fact that it transports models. It was UNNECESSARY. It was LAZY.
It was a Robin Cruddace creation and it typified his writing style. There's a reason my Guard army that I bought at the tail-end of the Doctrines Codex is sitting unbuilt in drawers right now, and it's that man's absolutely atrocious job of doing anything interesting and unique with the Guard.
Add Vulture Gunships; remove Vendettas. I don't care if you disagree with me or not--I want them gone. The Vendetta has kept GW from doing a plastic Vulture Gunship, because the statement I got when I asked a Studio member about it when the plastic Valkyrie first came out was "We didn't want to do such a large kit as a dual-build that would have very minor alterations".
Keep a "Vendetta Package" upgrade on the Valkyrie if you want one, but make it so the "Vendetta Package" halves the transport capability of any Valkyries utilizing it.
The vendetta las cannon guns are from forge world. No one is stopping you from buying the vulture punisher cannons from forge world and making your own "plastic" vulture. I really don't see the vendetta as any more "lazy" than day taking a chimera chassis and turning it into an artillery platform.
Dalymiddleboro wrote: The vendetta las cannon guns are from forge world. No one is stopping you from buying the vulture punisher cannons from forge world and making your own "plastic" vulture.
First of all, I have a Vulture with Punisher Cannons thankyouverymuch. If all you took away from that was "He wants a plastic Vulture", then I can't help you.
Second of all, the fact that Vendetta Lascannons are from FW should tell you everything that you need to know.
It was a design underway at FW when the plastic Valkyrie was coming out. The Vendetta was going to be EXCLUSIVE to the Elysian list.
It doesn't make any sense anywhere else, since the other Guard lists have access to Lascannons in large numbers thanks to Sentinels, LRBTs, etc.
Robin Cruddace took it and ran with it, since he can't write his way out of a wet paper bag and the initial Guard book he did had a decent number of FW items in it(Manticore, Hydra, Vendetta, some Russ variants off the top of my head) to fluff out the unit count.
I really don't see the vendetta as any more "lazy" than day taking a chimera chassis and turning it into an artillery platform.
Can a Basilisk carry infantry? Manticores toting around Bullgryn squads?
The artillery pieces you refer to share common components but are visually and technically distinctive. Vendettas are literally just a different weapon option.
Vendettas are lazy and what's more they have become a crutch that some Guard players rely heavily upon. I want that crutch kicked out from under them and the players learning to walk on their own again.
Also, I want the Valkyries and Chimeras and Taurox as Dedicated Transports(not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports") to prevent Allies nonsense.
AM codex update will remove all orders, replace them with formation bonuses from the IG decurion.
Tanks will be 0-6 per slot.
D weapons on some vehicles with various +1/-1's, look out for the D cannon leman russ model coming out just before christmas!
These are just the obvious things, who knows what GW will eventually do, they should put down the crack pipe before writing codexes.
Wait and see haters... wait and see
Dalymiddleboro wrote: The vendetta las cannon guns are from forge world. No one is stopping you from buying the vulture punisher cannons from forge world and making your own "plastic" vulture.
First of all, I have a Vulture with Punisher Cannons thankyouverymuch. If all you took away from that was "He wants a plastic Vulture", then I can't help you.
Second of all, the fact that Vendetta Lascannons are from FW should tell you everything that you need to know.
It was a design underway at FW when the plastic Valkyrie was coming out. The Vendetta was going to be EXCLUSIVE to the Elysian list.
It doesn't make any sense anywhere else, since the other Guard lists have access to Lascannons in large numbers thanks to Sentinels, LRBTs, etc.
Robin Cruddace took it and ran with it, since he can't write his way out of a wet paper bag and the initial Guard book he did had a decent number of FW items in it(Manticore, Hydra, Vendetta, some Russ variants off the top of my head) to fluff out the unit count.
I really don't see the vendetta as any more "lazy" than day taking a chimera chassis and turning it into an artillery platform.
Can a Basilisk carry infantry? Manticores toting around Bullgryn squads?
The artillery pieces you refer to share common components but are visually and technically distinctive. Vendettas are literally just a different weapon option.
Vendettas are lazy and what's more they have become a crutch that some Guard players rely heavily upon. I want that crutch kicked out from under them and the players learning to walk on their own again.
Also, I want the Valkyries and Chimeras and Taurox as Dedicated Transports(not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports") to prevent Allies nonsense.
Sounds like you should just go find a 5th edition gaming group, and start a diary about your feelings for Robbin cruddace.
Before viewing this thread, the only change I could think of that I wanted implementing was a form of space marine chapter tactics or "regimental tactics" if you like. I do find it ridiculous that games workshop publications continually re-iterate the marksmanship of cadians, how they can strip, rebuild and fire a lasgun by the age of six, for being renowned as excellent shots yet there is literally no representation of this. A cadian firing a lasgun on the battletop is no different from a valhallan ice warrior, or a catachan jungle fighter. Im not suggesting something as drastic as BS4 for cadians, perhaps merely a reroll of ones? Why don't the steel legion have rules which recognize their mastery of military mechanization? There are many more examples which similarly irritate me. Also new rules would prompt new models; most guard models just really aren't up to the standard at the moment.
I think ogryns becoming an upgrade to infantry platoons is an idea which should be considered, even if it doesn't happen the points value of ogryns needs to decrease.
The idea of the vox network being used to issue one order to multiple units is excellent and makes perfect sense; whilst at the same time making guard more competitive.
I am not desperately hoping for a competitive formation, its not why I play guard; give me regimental diversity and representation and I will be much happier.
Kanluwen wrote: The artillery pieces you refer to share common components but are visually and technically distinctive. Vendettas are literally just a different weapon option.
Vendettas are lazy and what's more they have become a crutch that some Guard players rely heavily upon. I want that crutch kicked out from under them and the players learning to walk on their own again.
Also, I want the Valkyries and Chimeras and Taurox as Dedicated Transports(not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports") to prevent Allies nonsense.
And yet you want to deny them to Platoons.
The Vendetta as it is makes a perfect flier transport for a special weapon, heavy weapon or platoon command squad - squads that a Valkyrie would be wasted on, but that match the mission specialist role of the more heavily armed flier. It also follows along with Imperial tradition in the same manner as the Razorback and certain Land Raider variants.
It represents one of the last vestiges of the more awesome 3rd edition "Mend and make do" Imperium in a game increasingly filled with wonder-tech.
So you leave my Vendettas alone. They are perfect just the way they are.
Besides, I see no reason to set them against the Vulture, which is its own, equally awesome piece of kit.
I would like to see a bike unit, like the old motor cycle and side cars with either a heavy bolter or heavy stubber attachment. I think it would be a great unit to give the guard some speed.
Kanluwen wrote: The artillery pieces you refer to share common components but are visually and technically distinctive. Vendettas are literally just a different weapon option.
Vendettas are lazy and what's more they have become a crutch that some Guard players rely heavily upon. I want that crutch kicked out from under them and the players learning to walk on their own again.
Also, I want the Valkyries and Chimeras and Taurox as Dedicated Transports(not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports") to prevent Allies nonsense.
And yet you want to deny them to Platoons.
I never said I don't want Chimeras or Taurox for Platoons. I said that I want them as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS--not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports" like we have been seeing(where vehicles have two entries).
Valkyries? Absolutely not as Dedicated Transports for Platoons. Command Squads, Veteran Squads, and Stormtrooper Squads.
While we're at it--Command Vehicle upgrade for Valkyries.
The Vendetta as it is makes a perfect flier transport for a special weapon, heavy weapon or platoon command squad - squads that a Valkyrie would be wasted on, but that match the mission specialist role of the more heavily armed flier.
This isn't Space Marines. They don't need "mission specialist vehicles with transport capabilities".
The Vendetta is bad. It's just awful.
It also follows along with Imperial tradition in the same manner as the Razorback and certain Land Raider variants.
It represents one of the last vestiges of the more awesome 3rd edition "Mend and make do" Imperium in a game increasingly filled with wonder-tech.
Except it's not a case of Techmarines or Tech-Priests fiddling with the thing and "mending and making do".
The Vendetta was literally made up and pretended to exist this entire time, same as the Taurox and any number of things which people constantly whine about.
So you leave my Vendettas alone. They are perfect just the way they are.
Besides, I see no reason to set them against the Vulture, which is its own, equally awesome piece of kit.
Other than the fact that the continued existence of the Vendetta means no Vulture for the Codex, right?
Seriously. I've asked several times and been told that "With the adaptability of the Valkyrie and Vendetta, there is no reason for the Vulture Gunship to be placed into the main Codex."
Kanluwen wrote: Deathstrike Missile gains Strength D, with a +1 to whatever it rolls on the table.
It's a bloody ICBM. If Wraithguard are hucking around Strength D, Deathstrike Missiles get it. End of story.
Russes gain Lumbering Behemoth again. Squadron sizes are increased to 6 Russes.
Vendettas are cut, collared, and burnt. Vulture Gunship joins the Codex as a Fast Attack Squadron choice.
Armored Sentinel Squadrons become part of Infantry Platoons.
Scout Sentinel Squadrons become Troops choices.
Bullgryn and Ogryn become an upgrade for Infantry Platoons.
Militarum Tempestus Platoons gain a "Tempestus Special Weapons Squad" option.
Rough Riders are removed if they're not getting models, again. The concept is rather dated at this point anyways. Taurox mounted Veteran Squads become labeled as "Reaction Squads" and get put into Fast Attack.
Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants gain the option to take Lasguns and gain the ability to issue Junior Officer Orders; but ONLY to their squad.
Veteran Squads equipped with Carapace Armor are granted Hellguns(I refuse to call them "Hotshot Lasguns", as "Hotshot" is the designation for the ammo packs being utilized not the gun itself).
Hydra Flak Tanks gain the ability to sacrifice Skyfire for their turn and allowing for them to shred infantry.
Vox-Casters increase Order Radius to any units equipped with Vox-Casters and allow for an Order to be issued to multiple units at the same time.
I could probably write a whole book of these; but this is what I would like to see.
This - all this. And add back in the Colossus Bombard and Medusa. Oh, and on the bolded part, well, I'd prefer:
Rough Riders are changed as the concept is rather dated at this point anyways. Have them put on dirty bikes/scramblers/warbikes of some description. That way, the Death Korp Death Riders will be one of the few to use horses...
Kanluwen wrote: Deathstrike Missile gains Strength D, with a +1 to whatever it rolls on the table.
It's a bloody ICBM. If Wraithguard are hucking around Strength D, Deathstrike Missiles get it. End of story.
Russes gain Lumbering Behemoth again. Squadron sizes are increased to 6 Russes.
Vendettas are cut, collared, and burnt. Vulture Gunship joins the Codex as a Fast Attack Squadron choice.
Armored Sentinel Squadrons become part of Infantry Platoons.
Scout Sentinel Squadrons become Troops choices.
Bullgryn and Ogryn become an upgrade for Infantry Platoons.
Militarum Tempestus Platoons gain a "Tempestus Special Weapons Squad" option.
Rough Riders are removed if they're not getting models, again. The concept is rather dated at this point anyways.
Taurox mounted Veteran Squads become labeled as "Reaction Squads" and get put into Fast Attack.
Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants gain the option to take Lasguns and gain the ability to issue Junior Officer Orders; but ONLY to their squad.
Veteran Squads equipped with Carapace Armor are granted Hellguns(I refuse to call them "Hotshot Lasguns", as "Hotshot" is the designation for the ammo packs being utilized not the gun itself).
Hydra Flak Tanks gain the ability to sacrifice Skyfire for their turn and allowing for them to shred infantry.
Vox-Casters increase Order Radius to any units equipped with Vox-Casters and allow for an Order to be issued to multiple units at the same time.
I could probably write a whole book of these; but this is what I would like to see.
Almost agree with all of this but sorry the Vendetta Gunship is just fine, however it should be an upgrade option for a Valkyrie rather then its own separate flyer. To upgrade a Valkyrie to a Vendetta costs 25pts. and it has its transport capacity cut in half in order to get the x3 Lascannons. And a few other things:
-Hydra Flak Tanks get Interceptor on top of being able to shoot at Ground Targets with normal BS.
-Leman Russ squad size does not need to change but they should get special rules like the new Marines for taking squadrons of them, all different depending on the variant. For example, a Squad of x3 Vanquishers get a single SD Shot ONLY against enemy Vehicles.
-Bring back the cut out Artillery variants.
-Sentinel Squadrons get a size increase to either 5 or 6.
Now the big thing for me:
DOCTRINES COME BACK IN SOME SHAPE OR FORM: I cannot stress this enough it was one of the reasons that made the older Guard book so awesome. With so many kinds of different Imperial Guard out there having Doctrines (like Chapter Tactics) or even Formations representing that would be awesome and fluffy. For Example:
Airborne Imperial Guard Regiment: Imperial Guard Infantry, Sentinels and Flyers using this Docrtine/Formation all get the Deep Strike Special Rule and you may begin rolling for Reserves Turn 1. Furthermore both Armored and Scout Sentinels are the only ground vehicles available to this army.
Armored Imperial Guard Regiment: Tanks from this Doctrine/Formation come with Preferred Enemy, furthermore all vehicles with the "Tank" classification come with Objective Secured.
Mechanized Imperial Guard Regiment: Chimeras from this Doctrine/Formation have the "Fast Vehicle" Special Rule. Furthermore, up to x3 weapons (including Heavy Weapons) may fire out of the Chimera at full BS regardless on how far its moved.
Some nice ideas and discussion in this thread.
^^^All tanks get preferred enemy? Do you realise how overwhelmingly effective you just made executioners?^^^ Its a nice prospect, admittedly as a guard player.
Out of interest, does anybody have any kind of information regarding the month for the new guard codex or even time of year?
Ustis wrote: Some nice ideas and discussion in this thread.
^^^All tanks get preferred enemy? Do you realise how overwhelmingly effective you just made executioners?^^^ Its a nice prospect, admittedly as a guard player.
Out of interest, does anybody have any kind of information regarding the month for the new guard codex or even time of year?
Its just as crazy as some of the stuff Necrons, Eldar, Skitarri, Mechanicum and Marines got! And honestly the last thing I heard after Marines for 40k was Tau rumors.
Oh let me make myself understood I am not dismissing the idea as unrealistic or in the game breaking territory occupied by Decurion detachments. I think I would actually be more inclined to go for the mechanized doctrine so I can ride around in a fast chimera firing three veteran melta guns.
As for the codex, we could be waiting some time then
HWT get +1 Toughness, and Stealth, and perhaps can be taken as 3-5?
Bring back our special characters please!
Three guardsman can shoot out of the top hatch of a chimera
Lumbering behemoth for the LR tanks
Replace the turok with an assault vehicle?
Veteran Sgt. Orders!
Chimera with an Order Relay system?
Motorcycle Guardsman to replace Rough Riders, because I already modeled mine that way.
Hell, buff up the entire elite section.
Give Sentinels a jinx or more weapons/weapon choices. Cuz I've got 7 of them, and need more mileage.
Bayonet upgrade to add +1 attack for 1/2points per model
10" Strength D Death Strike Missile
Figure out something for the Psyker battle squad, or get rid of them. They're boring, and I'd rather just take the Primaris.
Bring back Marbo, give him an awesome backstory as to where the hell he went, and make his statline even better. Or just give him his long over due solo codex.
Medkits for Veteran squads
About half way through I think I just started Wish-listing.
Guardsmen Bob wrote: Bring back Marbo, give him an awesome backstory as to where the hell he went, and make his statline even better. Or just give him his long over due solo codex.
Not trying to be rude, but can a heavy weapons team be stealthy if they are firing an gun as loud as thunderclap? I mean what is the theory behind their stealth?
Ustis wrote: Not trying to be rude, but can a heavy weapons team be stealthy if they are firing an gun as loud as thunderclap? I mean what is the theory behind their stealth?
Camo nets/their guns having little shields for the men to hide behind/digging in in general, basically.
1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.
On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!
Ustis wrote: Not trying to be rude, but can a heavy weapons team be stealthy if they are firing an gun as loud as thunderclap? I mean what is the theory behind their stealth?
Camo nets/their guns having little shields for the men to hide behind/digging in in general, basically.
Yeah I suppose but the HWT would have to remain stationary for it work in theory and on the tabletop. Probably not camo nets but perhaps a sandbag like upgrade.
As far as codices go, I feel that Imperial Guard has weathered the changing times better than others, including a few 7th edition codices like poor Orks or Grey Knights. It's not top-tier by any means, but I think it can still make some solid armies. There are a lot of things I would like to change, sure, but not nearly so many things need to be changed. With that in mind I'll share some of the things I think ought to be changed to help IG compete with some of the scarier armies out there, and for now I'll spare the internet my wishlist of extras and frivolities. Note that most of my thoughts here are based on internal army workings and don't take into account allies--I typically don't like to play with allies and I feel that, while allies are a perfectly valid part of the game, a codex shouldn't *need* allies to function in the first place.
Changes needed for increased competitiveness (in some combination of the following:
-Our HQ choices (the ones that take slots) need some re-balancing or at least re-pricing. Pask's squadron is amazing and another tank HQ gives good firepower and frees up a Heavy Support slot for Wyverns or even more tanks. Everything else is just too expensive and squishy for what they do, especially the infantry characters. There really ought to be a compelling reason to take non-tank HQs and more orders isn't compelling enough, especially when our infantry blobs are fairly 'meh' in the first place.
-Something needs to be done about our Troops. Veterans are pretty much only worthwhile as transport-mounted plasma/melta guns who occasionally disembark to hide in cover next to an objective. Everything else just doesn't do enough for their points, low cost they may be. A lot of things could fix this. Certainly, just lowering points might work--though then we'll end up with Conscripts stupidly (and I mean stupidly) cheap and people will have to buy yet more plastic. Something more along the lines of letting blob squads take more gear or giving them some sort of buff (such as a regimental tactic or some other special rule), making Heavy Weapon Squads cheaper/somehow more attractive, or giving Special Weapon Squads access to their own transports might make for some more viable builds involving infantry platoons.
-Moreso than with our Troops, something desperately needs to be done about our Elites. There is nothing particularly good in this slot. Other armies usually have at least something useful in each type of slot, but we don't have anything in Elites that can do anything better for us than just taking more Troops would do. It could be a buff to Ogryns, Ratlings (lol). Psykers, or Scions. It could be a simple points decrease in one or more of those units. It could be moving something from the crowded Heavy Support slot or even the Fast Attack slot here (Armoured Sentinels come to mind. I'd also definitely take a Hydra every game if I didn't have to sacrifice a Russ). Or GW could go right for our wallets and make a new, actually useful unit.
-The internal balance is pretty bad, but our Fast Attack slot does have the tools to deal with other armies. Vendettas are great. Hellhounds can be pretty good. We just need to be able to take our dedicated transports as stand-alones so we can give them out to teams without transports and then we're brought in line with the other 7th edition FA stuff. I'm all for making other FA choices better, though.
-Our Heavy Support slot is also internally unbalanced and crowded. However, between a number of the Leman Russ variants and Wyverns I think that we have the tools to compete (though it pains me to not say that a revival of Lumbering Behemoth is necessary). Our tanks do their jobs well, I feel, the main problem is that the units supporting them (namely Troops) tend to be lacklustre. And since they suffer, our Heavy Support suffers. Not sure that much needs to be changed here to 'fix' us when it comes to going head to head with the stronger armies.
-We may or may not *need* a super heavy tank. We'll definitely get one. We'll probably get a few--one will probably even be worth taking.
I'd just like to be able to pay a 5 to 10 point flat cost across the board (depending on # of models, or wounds rather, in the squad; PCS = 5 Pts.; HWT/SWT = 6 Pts; Infantry Squad = 10 Pts.) per infantry platoon to have Carapace armor on my troopers. I think it's silly that I can't get carapace across the board unless I run all Veterans. Some regiments (such as Vostroyans) all wear carapace armor and I'd like to be able to run a regular infantry platoon without having the saves be different from the Grenadier Veteran squads I typically run.
They're BS:3 guardsmen, charging an extra point per wound in the squad to give them +1 save seems fair when it's about 1.5 points per wound to give BS:4 Veteran Guardsmen the same upgrade.
Similarly, i'd love to see Infantry Platoons be able to purchase Camo Cloaks as well for the same upgrade cost I listed above for Carapace. No Snare Mines though, as that should be a benefit of the Veteran Doctrine you get as an added bonus to purchasing Forward Sentries for your vets.
Doing this would help out tremendously for different regiments actually feeling different, and allow people to really represent a lot of different regiments quite nicely.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
Kanluwen wrote:
I never said I don't want Chimeras or Taurox for Platoons. I said that I want them as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS--not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports" like we have been seeing(where vehicles have two entries).
Valkyries? Absolutely not as Dedicated Transports for Platoons. Command Squads, Veteran Squads, and Stormtrooper Squads.
While we're at it--Command Vehicle upgrade for Valkyries.
Why not for Platoons? It makes perfect sense and hardly breaks the game.
This isn't Space Marines. They don't need "mission specialist vehicles with transport capabilities".
No, it isn't the Space Marines. Its the Guard, we don't have fancy gimmicky gak - we need out upgunned aircraft to keep pace! Are you sure you play Guard? You sure seem to doubt that the poor boys on the ground need enough support to keep them alive.
Except it's not a case of Techmarines or Tech-Priests fiddling with the thing and "mending and making do".
The Vendetta was literally made up and pretended to exist this entire time, same as the Taurox and any number of things which people constantly whine about.
If thats how you want to pretend things are, I guess thats up to you.
Other than the fact that the continued existence of the Vendetta means no Vulture for the Codex, right?
Seriously. I've asked several times and been told that "With the adaptability of the Valkyrie and Vendetta, there is no reason for the Vulture Gunship to be placed into the main Codex."
But the Vulture is in the codex, as of Imperial Aeronautica. But then, I guess I live in an entirely different world to you - I run my guard out of IA3se wholesale so I really don't see what the point of whining about having to own two books is about.
Problem with guard is that the power creep in 40k has caused foot slogging infantry to be utterly useless. But you just can't buff their stat line because they are only human after all.
I don't think its a good idea to give all infantry access to camo cloaks or carapace like someone suggested. Everyone would proxy that crap like they do with netting on their tanks. It's cheesy and doesn't properly illustrate the army.
- give them access to medics for infantry platoons? Giving a blob fnp would add surviveability and keep the feel.
- some buffed up orders would be great. Guard is really weak to flying circus armies, so maybe a sky fire order. Also, why can't a tank commander have the ignore cover order? I mean Tau can abuse it with anything in their army.
- my prediction is that they will have the bane blade variants in the codex. Much like the ork codex has the stompa. So if you're playing Eldar/tau you could just break out your bane blade and fight cheese with cheese.
- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.
- my prediction is that they will have the bane blade variants in the codex. Much like the ork codex has the stompa. So if you're playing Eldar/tau you could just break out your bane blade and fight cheese with cheese.
bob82ca wrote: - and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.
You're right and I too have been puzzled by rough riders stat-line a few times. Toughness 4 for definite.
Also, hammer of wrath. It is insane that they do not have hammer of wrath at strength 4, possibly 5. A massed calvary charge's impact is literally the embodiment and inspiration of the idea of hammer of wrath. Horses can weigh up between 1500-2000 pounds. Have games workshop ever seen the Return Of The King when the Rohan horses completely obliterate the orc army upon impact? I'm pretty sure a space marine would be smashed into the air by a 1500 pound horse
bob82ca wrote: Problem with guard is that the power creep in 40k has caused foot slogging infantry to be utterly useless. But you just can't buff their stat line because they are only human after all.
I don't think its a good idea to give all infantry access to camo cloaks or carapace like someone suggested. Everyone would proxy that crap like they do with netting on their tanks. It's cheesy and doesn't properly illustrate the army.
- give them access to medics for infantry platoons? Giving a blob fnp would add surviveability and keep the feel.
- some buffed up orders would be great. Guard is really weak to flying circus armies, so maybe a sky fire order. Also, why can't a tank commander have the ignore cover order? I mean Tau can abuse it with anything in their army.
- my prediction is that they will have the bane blade variants in the codex. Much like the ork codex has the stompa. So if you're playing Eldar/tau you could just break out your bane blade and fight cheese with cheese.
- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.
That someone who suggested it was me, and you can easily represent carapace armor and cloaks using third party miniatures, or better yet, get GW produce some new IG infantry upgrade sprues like they're doing for the space marines chapters that include camo cloaks on one, and carapace bits to add to the existing Cadian model range on the other. Charge 10 bucks per sprue or whatever price point is fair sounding for 10 Carapace armor upgrades or 10 camo cloaks and I'm sure people would buy them in good measure.
Also, people proxy carapace and camo cloaks already right now? How does letting an infantry platoon have access to that wargear change anything at all to the current proxying already going on with Veteran squads, except that it might increase to army wide? And if someone isn't WYSIWYG constantly, you could always refuse to play them if it bugs you that much.
Me personally, I play Vostroyans. Every mini has carapace armor on them, and I want to be able to field platoons and get the benefit of the equipment modeled onto my toy soldiers that I've painstakingly painted and enjoy playing with instead of always fielding veterans with Grenadiers (as I currently do with 95% of my lists).
I'll also second MarsNZ by saying, what about the baneblade is cheesy? It's powerful, sure, but it dies relatively fast to things like Knights, which are cheaper, and wraith guard, which are even cheaper still.
For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions
For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions
What is the benefit of this proposal? Just opportunity for more heavy support slot units and being able to squadron everything or?...
Formations.
If ANYONE should have formations, it's the IG.
They should have formations for everything. Formations for the artillery working together at the back with bonuses to hit for everyone because they're so good at working together.
Formations for assault squads running alongside tanks, so long as they are close to the units in their formation they should get bonuses.
I'd love to see some serious buffs to infantry - so that they're actually viable on their own, rather than just bubble-wrapping for tanks.
I think CCSs could do with more protection. For such a valuable unit, they just seem far too easy to remove.
Commissar Lords seem too expensive, and their gear costs at least twice as much as is reasonable.
Speaking of, virtually all our gear feels badly overpriced and fails to take into account the cost of the models. e.g. Why does a SM sergeant pay about 100% of his base cost for a S4 power sword, whilst our own sergeants pay 300% of their base cost just for a S3 power sword (with worse WS and I to boot?
Also, I'd like to propose that Chimeras go back to their 5th edition point costs and rules (i.e. 3 models can fire out of them). They'd already ceased to be a problem when 6th rolled around, and at this point they're just embarrassing.
Three models firing out of a chimera would be a big help, although if you look at the size of the hatch it appears four could easily fire.
I don't think anyone else has pointed this out yet but we need to keep Pask or a similar tank commander character with some really effective rules/orders.
Or perhaps make tank commanders more customizable by allowing the purchase of tank hunter, monster hunter etc. for a reasonable price.
They should make Rough Riders T4 with W2 at minimum.
Infantry Squads should be cheaper, perhaps 40 points instead of 50 to encourage people to actually take them over Veterans. Increasing the cost of Veterans would make them too costly. Do not give Infantry Squads access to Carapace Armour though.
Make carapace 20 points instead of 15. It's very useful and is generally a must have on any veteran that ever leaves a transport.
Make krak grenades cheaper so they're worth taking over a single melta bomb.
Cheaper Chimeras and Tauroxes. Especially the Taurox Prime. Base costs on all of these needs to be reduced for sure. I look at the glorious ork trukk and wish IG Armies could take those instead.
Cheaper Commissar and Commissar Lords. There's no reason to take Commissars over Priests, nor many good reasons to take a Commissar Lord over a Company Command Squad.
Lower morale for Infantry Squads, Guardsmen probably shouldn't have leadership 7/8. Mine never run away.
10 point plasma pistols and power weapons, 15 point power fists.
An Order for Charging. Give a unit rage or +1 attack or furious charge or something like that.
Cheaper Scions that have higher rate of fire lasguns. Salvo or Assault rather than Rapid Fire.
Slightly cheaper Hellhounds
D Strength Deathstrike.
Cheaper Sentinels.
Cheaper Heavy Weapons Teams/Weapons. These guys are way too vulnerable for their points cost.
Auto Targeting rule for Hydras again. The old Hydra and the new Siege of Vraks Hydra has this rule. No jink saves for Skimmers/Fliers.
OPPls Nerf Formations/Detachments that give huge bonuses for no reason when you take base units that you would usually take anyway.
I tend to agree with people who say our codex is not that bad. Sure, we have some stupidly priced gear and some useless Elites slots but with FW and allies shenanigans, IG is still a good match for most enemies. Albeit, some changes must be applied:
Leman Russ with LB would be something good and would make them even more scarier. That would not be too much regarding the proliferation of D weapons on the TT.
Chimeras are too fragile and not that mobile. Decrease in cost or perhaps, a little AV buff? (I know it's impossible but that would be nice).
Infantry gear like radio-voxes, CA and order mechanism must be reworked. It is impossible to wage a battle when your order range is 12''. What's the point of having man-portable radios if they can work only in such a small bubble? Ridiculous. I tend to think orders shoulb be given to any friendly unit (including vehicules) in line of sight, that would be more legit and more effective.
Increase Scions Ld to 8, since they are supposed to be cold-hearted brainwashed killing machines trained since childhood. Why a Ld equal to a random guardsman GW ? Why?
More formations and - most important thing for me - regimental doctrines !! I'll gladly exchange all my previous suggestions for a doctrine chart which allow you to choose USR for your goddamn infantry and custom your guys. Sadly, GW is not that much on a dynamic of creativity so if a new codex must be, I expect none of this would come back.
As it was previously said, expect the worst from IG codex update.
Oh and I almost forgot another impossible thing; give us back "Imperial Guard" and dump this fake Latin label.
As controversial as Kan's Vendetta/Valk proposal was, I kind of agree. Let gunships be gunships and let the transports be transports. Give the Vulture the option for a bunch of Lascannons as well as its classic gatling cannon load out, and leave Valks as ~90pts flyer transports with some middling guns. Gives definition to the roles of otherwise similar units.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
Kanluwen wrote:
I never said I don't want Chimeras or Taurox for Platoons. I said that I want them as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS--not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports" like we have been seeing(where vehicles have two entries).
Valkyries? Absolutely not as Dedicated Transports for Platoons. Command Squads, Veteran Squads, and Stormtrooper Squads.
While we're at it--Command Vehicle upgrade for Valkyries.
Why not for Platoons? It makes perfect sense and hardly breaks the game.
Because Airborne Guard regiments are RARE. It's why Airborne specialists like the Elysians and Harakoni are considered "rare", as the vehicles necessary for them to ply their trade are primarily attached to the Imperial Navy or Stormtroopers.
By contrast, Chimeras can be put out in huge volumes allowing for armoured regiments to exist in large quantities.
This isn't Space Marines. They don't need "mission specialist vehicles with transport capabilities".
No, it isn't the Space Marines. Its the Guard, we don't have fancy gimmicky gak - we need our upgunned aircraft to keep pace! Are you sure you play Guard? You sure seem to doubt that the poor boys on the ground need enough support to keep them alive.
"Keep pace" with what?
Again, if you want to keep the Vendetta fine. But remove the unit entry and put the Lascannon upgrades on the Valkyrie while halving the transport capacity. It has absolutely no business being a separate unit.
Except it's not a case of Techmarines or Tech-Priests fiddling with the thing and "mending and making do".
The Vendetta was literally made up and pretended to exist this entire time, same as the Taurox and any number of things which people constantly whine about.
If thats how you want to pretend things are, I guess thats up to you.
That's not a "pretend". Notice how it never says that it was a field modification?
Other than the fact that the continued existence of the Vendetta means no Vulture for the Codex, right?
Seriously. I've asked several times and been told that "With the adaptability of the Valkyrie and Vendetta, there is no reason for the Vulture Gunship to be placed into the main Codex."
But the Vulture is in the codex, as of Imperial Aeronautica. But then, I guess I live in an entirely different world to you - I run my guard out of IA3se wholesale so I really don't see what the point of whining about having to own two books is about.
Is it in the book?
Because it's not in my Imperial Guard book.
I have no issues with owning multiple books; but let's not pretend that because it is in book X from FW means it is actually in the Guard book.
bob82ca wrote: - and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.
You're right and I too have been puzzled by rough riders stat-line a few times. Toughness 4 for definite.
Also, hammer of wrath. It is insane that they do not have hammer of wrath at strength 4, possibly 5. A massed calvary charge's impact is literally the embodiment and inspiration of the idea of hammer of wrath. Horses can weigh up between 1500-2000 pounds. Have games workshop ever seen the Return Of The King when the Rohan horses completely obliterate the orc army upon impact? I'm pretty sure a space marine would be smashed into the air by a 1500 pound horse
Pretty sure they have--considering several of their sculptors and writers were extras in RoTK during that scene.
It being in IA:A with a note saying its a Heavy Support choice for C:IG (which is automatically retconned to C:AM) is functionally identical to it being in C:AM.
As for why the Vendetta is a separate unit to the Valkyrie, its because the wording on the upgrade that reduces its transport capacity is always going to be horribly ugly.
The other reason to keep it as a separate unit is so that you can't buy it as a dedicated transport after you open up Valks as dedicated transports to other units.
Because Airborne Guard regiments are RARE. It's why Airborne specialists like the Elysians and Harakoni are considered "rare", as the vehicles necessary for them to ply their trade are primarily attached to the Imperial Navy or Stormtroopers.
And yet anyone can build an Elysian squad.
Terminator armours are very rare things, but we see loads of those.
Hell, compared to a Guardsman, a space marine is extremely rare.
Furyou Miko wrote: It being in IA:A with a note saying its a Heavy Support choice for C:IG (which is automatically retconned to C:AM) is functionally identical to it being in C:AM.
Functionally? Yeah. But it's not the same thing as actually being present in the book.
And that's what I'm arguing for. It's fine and dandy to be FW, but it being an actual unit entry would be far far far preferable.
As for why the Vendetta is a separate unit to the Valkyrie, its because the wording on the upgrade that reduces its transport capacity is always going to be horribly ugly.
The other reason to keep it as a separate unit is so that you can't buy it as a dedicated transport after you open up Valks as dedicated transports to other units.
"Vendetta Upgrade: A single nose-mounted Twin-Linked Lascannon and two hardpoint mounted Twin-Linked Lascannons. Taking this upgrade reduces the transport capacity of the Valkyrie from 12 to 6. Any Valkyries purchased as dedicated transports for units numbering over 6 cannot purchase this upgrade."
Furyou Miko wrote: But a forge world book IS an actual unit entry. You're creating a distinction where none exists.
And yes, yes it is. Its horrendous. No upgrade should require more explaining than a whole special rule!
Yeah, it is. And so is White Dwarf rules. It's still much nicer to have it in the codex.
I don't understand why the different load-outs on Land Raiders make them different entries in the codex, but Valkyrie/Vendetta is one entry. Make it two and the problem with the wording would be null and void.
bob82ca wrote: - and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.
You're right and I too have been puzzled by rough riders stat-line a few times. Toughness 4 for definite.
Also, hammer of wrath. It is insane that they do not have hammer of wrath at strength 4, possibly 5. A massed calvary charge's impact is literally the embodiment and inspiration of the idea of hammer of wrath. Horses can weigh up between 1500-2000 pounds. Have games workshop ever seen the Return Of The King when the Rohan horses completely obliterate the orc army upon impact? I'm pretty sure a space marine would be smashed into the air by a 1500 pound horse
Pretty sure they have--considering several of their sculptors and writers were extras in RoTK during that scene.
Really? Then the lack of hammer of wrath is even more disappointing.
Furyou Miko wrote: But a forge world book IS an actual unit entry. You're creating a distinction where none exists.
The "distinction" is that Forge World rules are not readily available beyond their webstore or downloaded scans.
If FW books were available from every GW shop or through their own webstore(again, which would be so nice), there would be no real cause for "a distinction". But as it stands there are still people who won't let FW items be played because "the rules aren't in the main books or sold through GW themselves".
And yes, yes it is. Its horrendous. No upgrade should require more explaining than a whole special rule!
The biggest problem is the internal balance in AM, particularly our weak elites and fast attack. Here are my modest buffs and nerfs to improve internal balance.
HQ - Bump priests to 35 points
- Enginseers can repair vehicles within 6", not base to base contact
- Lord Commissar drops to 50 points
- Commissars are 0-5, not 1 per PCS/CCS. It's For Your Own Good resolves before the perils of the warp (you lose the model but it doesn't harm the unit)
- Primaris Psykers gain access to wargear
- CCS, all models gain Look Out Argh'!
Troops
- HWS drop to 30 points and may purchase a vox, camo, snare mines
- Missile launchers come with flakk missiles
- SWS may take dedicated transports
- PCS gain the combined squads special rule (may join your blob squads)
- Conscripts may be purchased as troops choices independent of platoons
- Chimeras lose lasgun arrays
- Taurox gets a better model
- Veterans bump to 65 points
Elites
- Wyrdvanes, when manifesting powers you may change one failed warp charge roll to a '6' so they're more reliably casting, but also suffering way more perils of the warp
- Scion Tempestors gain voice of command
- Ogryns of every type drop 5 points
- Ratling sniper rifles have Ap 5 default
Fast Attack:
- Cavalry grant +1 Toughness, rough riders gain WS4
- Valkyrie may purchase hellfury missiles or missile pods
- Vendetta drops to 150 points
- Hunterkiller and hellstrike missiles gain armorbane, lose ordnance
- Scout Sentinels increase cost by 5 points, gain camo netting
- Hellhound variants drop cost by 10 points
Heavy Support
- Change Wyvern to two large blasts (remove twin linked, remove shred)
- Increase range of demolisher cannon to 30"
- All Leman Russ variants gain 11 rear AV - Basilisk reduces cover saves by 1
- Deathstrike gains Strength D
Why do you want chimeras to lose lasgun arrays?
I seriously doubt they would bring out a new model, and the arrays have always been in the novels/fluff.
Ustis wrote: Why do you want chimeras to lose lasgun arrays?
I seriously doubt they would bring out a new model, and the arrays have always been in the novels/fluff.
Because they're a marginal weapon that adds almost nothing to the chimera's firepower. It's just extra, pointless rules that I always have to explain to my opponents: "yeah they fire at full BS, even though I moved 12" but they're at BS3 not BS4 like the veterans inside. Yeah I already fired two weapons from the hatch, these are extra, and can fire at other people. But they can't overwatch. Now that I've explained that...they're shooting at your Space Marines...ok they did no damage, nevermind."
Ustis wrote: Why do you want chimeras to lose lasgun arrays?
I seriously doubt they would bring out a new model, and the arrays have always been in the novels/fluff.
Because they're a marginal weapon that adds almost nothing to the chimera's firepower. It's just extra, pointless rules that I always have to explain to my opponents: "yeah they fire at full BS, even though I moved 12" but they're at BS3 not BS4 like the veterans inside. Yeah I already fired two weapons from the hatch, these are extra, and can fire at other people. But they can't overwatch. Now that I've explained that...they're shooting at your Space Marines...ok they did no damage, nevermind."
Okay that's understandable, though you could simply elect not to use them unless of course you are hoping that the removal of them in a new codex would lower the chimeras base cost.
The humble lasgun is not to be underestimated though, those lasgun arrays could come in handy if you've fired everything else and two cultists are still surviving on that four point objective, as a guard player I know the struggle of trying to scrape together shots from somewhere to kill that surprisingly resilient unit.
Kanluwen wrote: Because Airborne Guard regiments are RARE. It's why Airborne specialists like the Elysians and Harakoni are considered "rare", as the vehicles necessary for them to ply their trade are primarily attached to the Imperial Navy or Stormtroopers.
Well in a Universe with millions of Imperial Guard Regiments im pretty sure there are at least a few Hundred Thousand Airborne Regiments, by no means should you not be able to play one in a game of 40k.
TheSilo wrote: The biggest problem is the internal balance in AM, particularly our weak elites and fast attack. Here are my modest buffs and nerfs to improve internal balance.
- Taurox gets a better model
This wont happen, GW has spent the money to create this Vehicle and they are not going to change it anytime soon. If you hate it that much your better off converting it because it aint going nowhere soon.
Blacksails wrote: Un-cut all the units from the last book that were cut.
Shift some prices around on transports and hellhound variants.
Lumbering behemoth returns in some shape for russes.
For the love all that is alcoholic, give rough riders something.
AP3 on stormies does not justify their space marine level cost.
Special weapon and heavy weapon squads need access to the same wargear infantry squads do, including transports.
I'm sure many people here will want one or both of two things. The first is one of those super formation/decurion/warhost shenanigan. The second are regimental traits or doctrines. I'm not fundamentally opposed to those things, and I wouldn't be upset if they were included, but I don't feel they're necessary to fix the book.
That said, I'm 99.76482% positive the Guard will have a wide selection of formations, ranging from the useless (Warlord gets Fear!) to the broken (All transports and weapon upgrades are free!).
Book wise, bringing back more focus on regiments other than Cadia and Catachan would do a lot for me. And avoid the absolute trash MS Paint illustrations they're using now to show off colour schemes. Embarrassing.
Oh, and trash the Taurox. Purge from records. Delete with extreme prejudice. Show no mercy. Kill all who mention its name. Strike it from living memory.
This. I agree with just about everything here. Many of which were brought up prior to the most recent codex release yet were ignored. Take Stormtroopers for example (Never going to call them Scions, they are stormtroopers), who is going to pay such an absurd cost for what amounts to adding a SM tactical squad to the board with S3 AP3 weapons? Its just a waste of points.
Give Rough Riders SOMETHING. I haven't seen them fielded once this codex release & refuse to use them myself. Maybe if their power lances were AP2 I would consider fielding them as counter charge units but seeing as more often then not I'm dealing with termies/mega armored nobs with 2+ in melee, that AP3 is worthless.
Lastly...can GWPLEASE stop focusing on Cadians & Catachan? Catachans I don't mind so much, but the endless glorification of the Cadians has gotten old. REALLY old. How is it that Cadians are present in every fight in the universe yet they cannot even secure their homeworld against the forces of Chaos? Makes no sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ustis wrote: Before viewing this thread, the only change I could think of that I wanted implementing was a form of space marine chapter tactics or "regimental tactics" if you like. I do find it ridiculous that games workshop publications continually re-iterate the marksmanship of cadians, how they can strip, rebuild and fire a lasgun by the age of six, for being renowned as excellent shots yet there is literally no representation of this. A cadian firing a lasgun on the battletop is no different from a valhallan ice warrior, or a catachan jungle fighter. Im not suggesting something as drastic as BS4 for cadians, perhaps merely a reroll of ones? Why don't the steel legion have rules which recognize their mastery of military mechanization? There are many more examples which similarly irritate me. Also new rules would prompt new models; most guard models just really aren't up to the standard at the moment.
I think ogryns becoming an upgrade to infantry platoons is an idea which should be considered, even if it doesn't happen the points value of ogryns needs to decrease.
The idea of the vox network being used to issue one order to multiple units is excellent and makes perfect sense; whilst at the same time making guard more competitive.
I am not desperately hoping for a competitive formation, its not why I play guard; give me regimental diversity and representation and I will be much happier.
I was also disappointed that in the last codex release that regimental special rules were not added. What is the point of having thousands of specialized IG regiments if it is not somehow reflected on the tabletop? If SM can get their own regimental tactics, why can't IG?
If you can afford to play 40k, you can afford to mail order forge world.
Not realy. No one sane is going to pay 100$+ dollers for rules he needs for a single unit, add the cost of tax , how offten it comes damaged and how bad FW reacts to cusomers from my part of the world, and it is not affordable.
If SM can get their own regimental tactics, why can't IG?
Because GW has only models for one regiment, two counting the vietcong dudes and they know private firms would make models for missing regiments, as it is something people want.
For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions
What is the benefit of this proposal? Just opportunity for more heavy support slot units and being able to squadron everything or?...
Baby formations, you take one of these instead of a slot and get a bonus for taking one. The reaction platoon for example could all arrive from reserves as a single entity, the scout platoon could gain scout and so on.
The IG players would be able to taylor their force organisation more buy getting more room out of their avaliable slots, you could build a true artillary company and so on.
For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions
What is the benefit of this proposal? Just opportunity for more heavy support slot units and being able to squadron everything or?...
Baby formations, you take one of these instead of a slot and get a bonus for taking one. The reaction platoon for example could all arrive from reserves as a single entity, the scout platoon could gain scout and so on.
The IG players would be able to taylor their force organisation more buy getting more room out of their avaliable slots, you could build a true artillary company and so on.
Oh okay that's a valid idea, I assumed that was your aim but wasn't sure as you didn't spell it out.
The artillery platoon is a good idea, in my opinion in regular games of 40k up to six basilisks should be able to be able to be taken so you can summon significant co-ordinated artillery strikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am still yet to see any apocalypse games with huge guard artillery batteries though, which is strange if you think about it as the imperial guard usually have more artillery than you have men.
UrsoerTheSquid wrote: I would like to see a bike unit, like the old motor cycle and side cars with either a heavy bolter or heavy stubber attachment. I think it would be a great unit to give the guard some speed.
First and foremost, they can ditch the faux-latin, harry-potter sounding "Astra Militarum" moniker, they're the Imperial Guard.
Now, there's all sorts of insanity that could be undertaken with formations and detachments that I'll avoid for now.
First, they really need Orders to be applied to vehicles, and the HQ tank should just be an upgrade without needing a Squadron, and be able to issue orders the way Infantry command squads can. Voxes also need to function as a range enhancer, not a silly reroll.
However, most IG units need some work, most are still costed and designed to a 5E or even 3E/4E paradigm, and in dire need of assistance, many of which have needed assistance for many years, or in some cases, always since...ever.
Lets go through the list here
HQ:
Commissar Yarrick: 145pts, less survivable than significantly less expensive MEQ characters, not a tremendous degree of utility. If he's going to stay in the same general price range as character like Tigurius, Khan, and the like, he needs to go back to being Fearless and have a fearsome bubble effect. Otherwise he needs a drastic price decrease.
Company Command Squad: Largely actually pretty allright., but certainly could stand to go back down to their 5E costs.
Creed: A very expensive upgrade for an HQ with zero CC potential and only S3 6" range shooting attacks. Kell likewise needs to be paired with him, and costs an absurd number of points.
Straken: Allright, but hugely overcosted.
Deddog: Should be no more than *maybe* 40pts at his current incarnation.
Tank Commander: Make Orders function more like Infantry command squad orders, remove necessity to be in a squadron (where much of his function is just to overcome the detriments of being a Squadron in the first place)
Pask: If Chronus gets to be BS5 and be a W2 Character if his tank dies for just 10pts more than Pask, Pask should really do more than just minorly enhance the main gun for 40pts
Lord Commissar: Sort of functional, but really needs to be like 40/50pts, not 65 base and 80/90 after gear, particularly at T3 with a 5+ save.Somewhat overtaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different.
Commissar: Largeyovertaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different. Unfortunately pointless in most units given the small size, light durability, and low value in most instances.
Priest: Insanely amazing in blob platoons and Ogryn units, otherwise largely pointless. They overtake Commissars in their intended role, I'd make them more combat enhancy than Fearless/morale enhancey.
Primaris Psyker: Unfortuantely they're probably the least impressive psykers in the game for their relative investment. I'm not sure why IG psykers have to be less impressive than anyone else's other than "just because". 50pts for a W2 T3 5+sv lvl1 psyker, or 25pts for a lvl2, isn't particularly stellar.
Engineseer: Hilariously overcosted, really needs the Techmarine/Magos Dominus treatment, better repair ability and a 2nd wound if he's gonna cost 40pts base. That price didn't work in 3E, and it certainly doesn't work in 7E. Perhaps they could be like a 20pt attachment to a vehicle squadron instead?
Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad: Not much needs to be done with these other than the aforementioned Orders changes and a drop back to 5E price.
Infantry Squad: These guys need some help. Blob platoons are sort of functional with some HQ support, however, aside from that, they're really bad. Taken as individual units, they're "cheap" in absolute value, but rather expensive for their relative value, and blobbed without HQ support they are absurdly easy to remove en-masse. 50pts for a 10man "3 statline" Ld7 5+sv model with one BS3 heavy weapon and one BS3 special weapon simple is not an appropriate price any longer.
Heavy Weapons Squad: Oh man, these are amongst the worst units in the codex. They're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, some of the most expensive infantry heavy weapons in the game. They cost an additional 50% more than equivalent numbers of already rather expensive Infantry Squad models, and that's before they get any guns. The way these function, as W2 T3 Ld7 models simply makes them absurdly vulnerable to destruction by multi-shot S6 weaponry, a single wound getting through kills off 33% of the unit and forces an Ld7 break test. There's several things that could be done here. They could simply be made vastly cheaper to more appropriately reflect their value. Cut 25pts off each unit and you have a more realistic price for what they're really worth. Three BS3 T3 LD7 models with autocannons is probably worth ~50pts, not 75. The ability to "blob" them would also be really helpful. Alternatively, if we just don't want to make them absurdly cheap, they could be treated differently, much like Gun Teams in Flames of War. We've got two gunners and a large weapon, and the models typically have a gun shield and some sort of "entrenchment" like sand bags that come with the model, why not make them a T5 gun team? Like T7 Artillery, but not quite as impressive.
Special Weapons Squad: Face much the same issue as the above. Most critically they can't take a transport. Give them a transport option and the ability to at least get Ld8 somehow, and we're back on track.
Conscripts: The "blob" ability of basic Infantry Squads has largely made these guys superfluous. I think they should be taken out of the Platoon altogether and be made a simple Troops choice on their own.
Veterans: Largely ok.
Harker: 55pts for an S4 rending Heavy Bolter? 10pts? Sure. 15pts? Maybe. 55pts? That's easily 4x his actual value.
Dedicated Transports:
Chimera: This thing simply needs to be cheaper. 65pts for a transport with a single non-AV10 facing, with BS3 guns, no Fast or Skimmer benefits, a single rear-facing hatch, and that carries T3 5+sv infantry? Absolutely needs to be cheaper. If they want to boost its side armor, then it might be worth 65pts, but at its current stats? Especially after the reduction in fire points? 55pts tops.
Taurox: It's ugly. It's rather pointless. It was unasked for. It fills no role or niche. That said, GW's not going to cut it. If it's going to be kept, with lower BS and side armor than a Razorback, and transporting crappier troops, it really needs to be either cheaper, or faster. If the basic Taurox were also Fast, it would actually have a purpose and be worth the points. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.
Taurox Prime: Simply too expensive. 80pts base for something only slightly better armored than a Trukk is absurd. It's got decent firepower and speed, but should probably be 20pts cheaper with each of its weapons upgrade options cut in price by half. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.
Elites:
Ogryn: This is a prime example of where using Ld as an intelligence reflector does not work. These guys are stupid yes, but always portrayed as insanely brave. Stubborn on an Ld6/7 unit doesn't do that, in fact, Stubborn is largely pointless. These guys really should have very high Ld. They also should be like 15/20ppm less. Fix the Ld and cost issues and you've got a workable unit.
Bullgryns: Same as above for Ogryns.
Ratlings: These guys are T2 Elites with Stealth. They're monstrously overcosted at 10ppm, particularly when you've got things like Eldar Rangers as Troops with T3 & Shrouded and functionally the same run/shoot special rule (and Fleet to boot) along with a much more fearsome secondary weapon, at 12ppm. These guys are worth no more than maybe 7 or 8ppm.
Wyrdvane Psykers: A 60pt ML1 psyker taking up an Elites slot? Really?
Tempestus Scions: Guardsmen Statline, Space Marine cost. Heavy weapon AP, Lasgun strength, even worse range. These guys really need a fix. They should be Ld8/9 not 7/8. Either make the gun S4 and assault 2, or dump the AP entirely, make them actual *stormtroopers*, given them WS4, Furious Charge, get a pistol/CCW, and make the gun S3 Assault 3 18" to make them a more functional short range infiltration tactic archetypal "Stormtrooper" unit.
Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron: These guys have one schtick, outflanking, and even that, they're not particularly stellar at. AV10, open topped, HP2 is largely equivalent to T6 W2 Sv-, but worse. At 25pts they might be ok, but not at 35ppm or 105pts for a full unit, not for a very easily killed BS3 model with a multilaser.
Armored Sentinel Squadron: These guys are at least useable, but hardly really a "Fast Attack" unit, and still relatively expensive for what they offer. They could probably do with a 5ppm discount.
Rough Riders: Absolutely terrible. 11ppm for a fast moving guardsmen with a one-use, highly situational power weapon, and isn't a Troops unit. They really need to get the DKoK Death Rider treatment (W2 4+sv, A3 etc) for what they cost now.
Hellhound Squadron & Variants: All of these basically need a 40-55pt price cut. Non-skimmer Fast vehicles with short ranged weaponry costing as much as AV14 Battle Tanks and long ranged Skimmer tanks? There's a reason these are largely absent from most armies. They also need to come with smoke launchers base.
Valkyrie: As a naked transport, it's absurdly pricey for what it offers. For its base loadout, it really shouldn't be anything more than 90pts, not 125. The Hellstrike missiles also need to drop Ordnance unless they're going to make them Large Blast as well.
Vendetta: It's fine.
Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Squadron: Imma break this one up by variant
Leman Russ Battle Tank: needs to have a way to use its non-turret weaponry, firing everything else as snapshots is purely punitive and serves no balance function, particularly on a 150pt BS3 tank.
Leman Russ Demolisher: As above, but also needs to be cheaper. Paying 50pts to lose a point of BS and gain better armor over a Vindicator is absurd.
Leman Russ Vanquisher: A single shot BS3 Meltagun that lacks AP1 is not a terribly functional anti-tank unit. This variant really should be BS4 and AP1, or alternatively, something like a 2 shot main gun. With the changes in vehicles to HP's and the nerfing of the damage table, single shot, high pen weapons are of little value, particularly at BS3 and triple digit points. If it had the Coaxial stubber of FW's iterations, to give rerolls on the main gun, that would help a lot, but it needs AP1 either way to really be worth anything.
Leman Russ Eradicator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Punisher: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Exterminator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Executioner: Lose Gets Hot on the main gun. Increase its cost by 15pts if you must. The thing just loses too many shots to Gets Hot and is too likely to kill itself over the course of a game to be a functional unit.
Hydras: oh man these got violated with the last codex. They were amazing in 5E. Situational, mediocre, but functional in 6E. When they got the new rules, they lost their "ignore jink saves" rule, and got made Open Topped, for no good reason. Now, the kit's already out, that's not going to change, so making them Closed Topped again won't happen, at least not as a base unit. However, they really should get their "ignores Jink" rule back. I'd also move them to Elites. They're really not a Heavy Support unit, and with the way an IG army works, they'd really be a better fit there.
Basilisk Battery: The Basilisk has been the same stagnant crap unit for 16 years now. It has no purpose outside of Apocalypse games as it's run now. The minimum range needs to be brought down to something like 12-18", otherwise it might as well not be able to indirectly fire with the vast expanse of the board it can't hit within minimum range without exposing itself otherwise. Indirect fire is not worth losing a crapton of armor and becoming Open Topped over just taking a Leman Russ Battle Tank for 25pts more, and even that isn't a great unit. Also, re-include the Griffon and Medusa.
Wyvern: These should probably go up to 80pts, or lose Ignores Cover. Like the Hydra, I'd also move them to Elites. Leave HS to the big guns, lighter guns should go in Elites.
Manticore: Needs a price-break. At 170pts, with limited ammo, and the changes to the vehicle damage table greatly neutering that S10 (and with AP4 neutering its effectiveness against non-vehicles targets that S10 would otherwise be great against), it's simply too many points to fill any real role aside from killing Necron Warriors in the open. Alternatively, redesign the rockets. Make a dedicate anti-armor/antibuilding rocket and an alternate loadout that's more effective against armored infantry.
Deathstrike: This really shouldn't be a "Codex" unit at all, but since it must be, I'd just remove the limit on when you can shoot it. For 160pts and a one-use unit, a 10" S10 AP1 pieplate just isn't that scary anymore.
Other Wargear: Enclosed Crew Compartment: Really doesn't need to be 15pts, vehicle kill is through HP's, not damage table, this should be a 5 or 10pt upgrade.
Grenade Launchers: At this point, these simply are not useful enough to be taken unless they were free. Even if free, they'd most likely always typically be replaced. Making them Assault 2 or Rapid Fire or the like would hardly be overpowering, and might make them at least worth considering.
I'd also like to see a more "medium tank" type unit. Something along the lines of a Hellhound, but with maybe a twin linked three shot Autocannon turret for ~90pts?
1. Formations! - if they're good for Necrons and Eldar and Space Marines, they're good for the Imperial Guard.
2. Superheavy Tanks - everybody needs big toys, so the Guard need their Baneblades to match up against the Wraitknight GCs and Imperial Knight Superheavy Walkers.
3. Regimental Doctrines - these would be a "free" pick like SM Chapter Traits and cover ALL of the various regiments that GW has actually sold to date: Cadian, Catachan, Tallarn, Valhallan, Mordian, Praetorian, Vostroyan, Armageddon, Elysian, Krieg and Tanith.
Oh, yeah, change the name back to "Imperial Guard".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: First and foremost, they can ditch the faux-latin, harry-potter sounding "Astra Militarum" moniker, they're the Imperial Guard.
Now, there's all sorts of insanity that could be undertaken with formations and detachments that I'll avoid for now.
First, they really need Orders to be applied to vehicles,
However, most IG units need some work, most are still costed and designed to a 5E or even 3E/4E paradigm,
Deathstrike: This really shouldn't be a "Codex" unit at all, but since it must be, I'd just remove the limit on when you can shoot it.
I'd also like to see a more "medium tank" type unit. Something along the lines of a Hellhound, but with maybe a twin linked three shot Autocannon turret for ~90pts?
Yes, IG should be "Imperial Guard."
Formations and Detachments are mandatory, but I agree that wishlisting them in detail is unnecessary.
I consistently fail to use Orders, even though I'm paying for them. I'd far rather have paid for Cameoline for a Sv 6+/6++ instead of the Sv 5+.
Recosting and fixing will happen anyways, no need to go through the details.
Deathstrike should be S(D) AP1 Ordnance 1 using the 5" template, leaving a 3" wandering bubble of S(D) Doom -or- 2d3 S5 AP3 Barrage rolls on the 5-in-1 Cloverleaf template. This should be FUN to play with.
The Hellhound (and Valk) *is* the medium tank, and IG have plenty enough of those. Make the existing Tanks better, and it's no problem. The Hellhound is already a 3-in-1 kit so it's fine. 3-in-1 the Valkyrie with an extra sprue to cover the Vendetta and some sort of fancy attack craft.
A new medium tank is just something I'd like to see because it'd be cool is all.
Yes hellhounds exist, but they're really more "specialist" tanks, short ranged and usually specialist vehicles. "assault" tanks if you will. I'd just like to see something of roughly similar layout, but with a somewhat longer ranged generalist cannon, like a lighter Exterminator or buffed up Salamander.
The IG equivalent of a Panzer IV to the Leman Russ tank's Tiger II, while the Hellhounds are more like the specialist Flammpanzers.
I dunno, just something I always thought would be fun.
I I'd personally love to see the Griffon & Medusa put back into the future I.G. codex, which I hope we get sooner rather than later. Especially the Griffon, as it actually does have an (admittedly OOP Games Workshop) model kit.
I'm not optimistic about receiving a Guard update till next year at the earliest, since the current codex released right before 7th dropped, but I do hope they tweak many thing in the direction you've proposed Vaktathi.
I'd also dearly love some 'Regimental Tactics" a-la chapter tactics for the Biggest/Most well known/popular Regiments. Specifically: Cadian, Catachan, Armageddon, Tallarn, Vostroyan, Mordian & Valhallan.
Nothing over the top, but something to add flavor. Tallarn having Hit & Run for example. Or Catachans having Move Through Cover, or Vostroyans able to purchase Master Crafted weapons for their squads for XX points per squad. Nothing Game Breaking, but stuff to make different regiments actually *feel* different.
What I'll be looking out for most in a new codex is formations that allow me to represent the diversity of the Guard. I want an Infantry formation where all units have Infiltrate and Shrouded on turn 1 to represent a guerrilla force. I want a deep striking formation to represent a paratrooping force (might be stepping on the Elysians' toes here). I want a formation where all destroyed units come back in reserves on a 4+ to represent the endless hordes.
Tank formations would be good too I guess though that's not the reason I play Guard.
A lot of the suggestions to change units are very good. The unit that I think needs changing most is the Heavy Weapon Squad. They're so fragile, I don't think a simple points reduction would cut it. They need a Toughness increase. 4 would be good, though 5 would be better. That way they're not so vulnerable to pretty much any weapon in the game. I don't even think that would warrant a points increase. Right now they're so unviable it's not even funny.
The only thing I'd add (which I think you might have alluded to anyway), is that a lot of our wargear could stand to be cheaper.
Making us pay SM prices for melee weapons is a horrible idea. It means that a SM sergeant pays about 100% of his base cost for a WS4 S4 I4 Power Sword, whilst our sergeants are paying 300% of their base cost for WS3 S3 I3 power swords.
Also, some of our wargear is just bizarrely costed. Like the Death Mask - 30pts to upgrade a 5++ save to a 4++, and IWND and Fear on a T3 model. Or that relic that's an inferior power axe, but costs 10pts more.
I really don't see what the big deal is about the Codex being called "Astra Militarum".
The name gets used three or four times, tops, including the cover and title page of the book before it gets followed up with "Most commonly known as the Imperial Guard".
Furyou Miko wrote: The only problem I have with the Astra Militarum name is that it shortens to AM, so we have to call the real AM the AdMech all the time.
Good thing the two AdMech books are Cult Mechanicus(CM) and Skitarii
vipoid wrote:Protect it against what exactly? Were they afraid some other company was going to make a competing IG codex?
There has never been concern about "competing" codices, but there were concerns raised over the ability for companies to make parts or kits utilizing the name of the faction.
As opposed to all the Space Marine books now saying "Adeptus Astartes"?
No, those are equally pretentious.
It's also one thing for the SM stuff to be pretentious, that's part of their whole schtick. They're always written with a degree of pretentiousness in their fluff. It's just not really as appropriate for the IG.
As opposed to all the Space Marine books now saying "Adeptus Astartes"?
No, those are equally pretentious.
It's also one thing for the SM stuff to be pretentious, that's part of their whole schtick. They're always written with a degree of pretentiousness in their fluff. It's just not really as appropriate for the IG.
Honestly, it really is.
"Astra Militarum" is just as easy to accept as the High Gothic, Lords of Terra nomenclature for the Imperial Guard as "Adeptus Astartes" is for the Space Marines.
The fact that people got their knickers in such a twist over a name change that effectively doesn't matter is mind-boggling to me.
As opposed to all the Space Marine books now saying "Adeptus Astartes"?
No, those are equally pretentious.
It's also one thing for the SM stuff to be pretentious, that's part of their whole schtick. They're always written with a degree of pretentiousness in their fluff. It's just not really as appropriate for the IG.
Honestly, it really is.
"Astra Militarum" is just as easy to accept as the High Gothic, Lords of Terra nomenclature for the Imperial Guard as "Adeptus Astartes" is for the Space Marines.
The fact that people got their knickers in such a twist over a name change that effectively doesn't matter is mind-boggling to me.
"Adeptus Astartes" has been a pseudonym for Space Marines for a long time though. I don't recall ever hearing the name "Astra Militarium" until the book came out...
It just falls under the whole thing of GW not remembering to have fun with their own game and taking it, and themselves, far too seriously.
A lot of people just don't find it appropriate to the faction. It came out of nowhere, while other factions also had longstanding Faux-latin going back to RT or 2E, the Imperial Guard itself was never referred to that way.
It sounds significantly sillier to me at least than any of the other faux-latin names, and, possibly even more critically, its introduction felt extremely hamfisted and forced.
I mean, they could have at least have gone with existing background material and gone with something like "Legions Munitorum" or something like that.
Allow for 30k Leman Russ variants but have a rule similar to the 30k Knights where you can only have a maximum of 1 or 2 due to sheer rarity. ( I think the rule goes like you can only have 1 per squad of 3. Like every 2 more common tanks there can be 1 30k tank. I can't remember the rule exactly)
Hydra gets Interceptor, Skyfire, Auto Targeting Computer (ignores jink saves and the like, if I remember the rule right). Also the ability to fire at ground targets with normal BS.
Death Strike is a ST D strike with the biggest blast possible.
A full squadron of Basiliks (3 units) can unleash a St 9 ap 3 no cover, 10 inch blast. If even one of the trio of basilisks cannot fire (shaken, stunned, dead, etc) then you cannot fire the blast. Only Basilisks of the same squadron can fire it.
Reduce Tempestus Points. across the board. AP3 is nice and all but isn't quite enough for SM grade points cost.
Make the Taruox worth while. Not sure how, maybe make it Fast or something standard. I dunno...
Fuse the Tempestus and IG books.
FW aircraft (vulture, lightning, avenger, thunderbolt, etc) are added. Valk and Vendetta are fused back together and is just a points conversion rather than separate vehicles.
A malcador or Macharuis can be taken as a Heavy support option. Only a single malcador per HS spot and only 1 Macharius (non-LOW) can be taken per FOC.
Baneblades are still LOW due to sheer size and firepower. Macharius has much less firepower than a Baneblade.
Allow Rough Riders to hit at ST 8 and/or additional special weapons. Also make them move much faster. perhaps if they move in a straight line they can move additional inches so perhaps they can get to places they need to be. With several ST 8 hits (less than the Iron striders) they could possibly do damage to armor and infantry. They could be more jack of trades master of none than the Ironstrider.
hmmmm.
Im sure there are several things to reduce the price or change things around.
"Adeptus Astartes" has been a pseudonym for Space Marines for a long time though. I don't recall ever hearing the name "Astra Militarium" until the book came out...
It just falls under the whole thing of GW not remembering to have fun with their own game and taking it, and themselves, far too seriously.
The other thing is that AM doesn't seem to fit with anything inside the IG book - in terms of fluff, names of vehicles, names of officers etc.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Why are so many IG players afraid of giving IG their Baneblades, Shadowswords and other variants?
Probably the best summary I have seen to date Vaktathi. Thanks for putting that together. Its crazy how long so many of these issues have carried over from codex to codex over the years & still haven't been addressed.
Like, when the heck are we ever going to get some viable elite choices? My Steel Legion stormtroopers have been collecting dust forever now because I refuse to pay SM point costs for guardsman equivalent models. Considering stormtroopers are supposed to be the best of the best (Minus SM/SoB), why is their Ld as low as normal Guardsman Sgt? Why are they not capable of capturing points?
Why does GW insist on making rough riders so damn terrible? Units with basically 0 survivability & a 1 time use AP3 power lance is terrible for their cost. If they made their power lances AP2 I could at the very least justify taking them to counter charge termies/mega-armored nobs in melee.
Chimera/taurox either need some big points reductions or some better survivability. Cannot justify their current point cost.
Pretty much all of the IGHQ heroes are drastically overpriced.
Biggest things for me (that I didn't see mentioned already):
Individual or two man sniper units. Ratlings don't cut it.
A unit like Schaffers Last Chancers, where we can split it into smaller sub-units. (This is how I used to get my snipers).
Bring back different officers like before (junior, senior, heroic)
Bring back more options for RR and stop forcing me to take those damned lances! I want to use my shotgun riders again.
tilarium wrote: Biggest things for me (that I didn't see mentioned already):
Individual or two man sniper units. Ratlings don't cut it.
A unit like Schaffers Last Chancers, where we can split it into smaller sub-units. (This is how I used to get my snipers).
Bring back different officers like before (junior, senior, heroic)
Bring back more options for RR and stop forcing me to take those damned lances! I want to use my shotgun riders again.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Why are so many IG players afraid of giving IG their Baneblades, Shadowswords and other variants?
Because those things belong in Apocalypse?
Apocalypse is now 40k, so they belong in regular 40k games.
If you don't want to field them, that's your business, but stop blocking those of us who own them and want to play them against Knights and the coming tide of GCs.
As for 11-pt Rough Riders, I think it's good to compare them with a 5-pt Hormaguant, to ask whether they are more than 2x as good. The answer is no. Yes, they RR's generally out-stat Hormas by dint of more wargear, but not as much as the points might lead one to believe. I3 is much worse than I5, and lacking Synapse doesn't address the Ld issue. Current stats are probably worth 7 points, max 8.
Just ally in death korps of krieg if you want good rough riders. HQ + Troop tax and then like six units in the allied fast attack slot. These monsters have 2W and FNP for a modest price increase - 2W is the minimum for a non-transported assault unit IMO
W1 is fine, if the unit is cheap enough. Thought exercise - if RRs were only 3-4 pts per model, would people take them? Wouldn't that level of cheapness make them automatically good?
JohnHwangDD wrote: W1 is fine, if the unit is cheap enough. Thought exercise - if RRs were only 3-4 pts per model, would people take them? Wouldn't that level of cheapness make them automatically good?
Not really. It just makes them cheap, but still fails to address the real reason no one takes them.
They have no role. No purpose. No raison d'etre. Currently, they're expensive, fast Guardsmen with a one shot melee weapon and the potential for two special weapons at BS3. They're ideally suited for dealing with MEQ, but the codex is filled to the brim with anti-meq weaponry, and MEQ isn't exactly difficult to kill these days anyways given the gradual power creep that minimizes armour utility.
The lances are one shot, so your squad is almost suicidal in that they have to kill their target/damage it greatly so that it doesn't hurt them in return. They don't have enough punch against 2+ saves, lack the strength to deal with MCs, don't have enough attacks for hordes, and lack any sort of durability to stay in a fight, coupled with middling leadership and few ways to buff them reasonably within the codex through an attached mounted character.
Rough riders suck (and would continue to suck at 3-4ppm) because they don't do anything in the codex not already done three times over in more synergistic packages.
Rough riders need a combination of a few things;
-Durability: If they're going to be even remotely assault oriented, they need something more than T3 5+; 2W is reasonable, and so would T4 for the mount, and/or a FnP or Invuln save, all of which have appeared in some combination on some sort of RR variant.
-Firepower: Either assault or shooting, they need to be tooled to do something effectively. I'd love for them to be either an assault variant, or shooty variant, where you either get lances (infinite uses, but only on charge) and pistol + ccw and hit and run, or lasrifles/carbines and three special weapon slots, so that they're more like vets, but on horses.
-Cost: A price reduction would help them a lot in combination with other boosts. Paying 7-8ppm for a mounted Guardsmen is much more reasonable.
-Squad size and slot: As a part of their role, they'd also need some help in basic army construction. Having a 10-man squad size max in the FA slot with no other formation (outside of DKOK) to boost them really hurts. Turning them into mounted platoons with a mounted command squad and mounted commissars and priests would allows them to be a more expensive, but more mobile Guard platoon, similar to other codices with their bike variants.
TL;DR: A severe points reduction alone just makes them cheap Guard with no benefits of being cheap Guard (heavy weapon Ob Sec campers with leadership and other buffs via IC/Chars. Make RR either an elite durable assault unit, or turn them into mounted Guard platoon.
My understanding is that RR are more for theme than anything else. At 3 pts, RR gain durability and impact via sheer horde volume.
As far as changes go, I'm OK with a T4 or W2 "fix", but I'm not sure that making them marginally harder to kill makes that much difference. The Power Lances should work on every charge, and they should continue to have broad Special Weapons access. I agree that 8 pts would be fair if modified as above. I don't want them to be forced into a platoon where I'm required to take 5+10+10 minimum to field any; however, I would be OK with a RR Formation if/when the RRs get converted to plastic.
Note that most of this argument also goes with Ratlings and Ogryns. Which is fine, as these are all non-Core auxiliaries.
How you model RRs is up to you, and the rules would work fine as them being on horses or motorcycles. I plan on my RRs eventually being on bikes when Vic releases her take on them.
I'd like for some sort of fast, non vehicle mounted infantry option. Most every faction has access to some sort of 'mounted' version, whether on normal bikes or jet bikes, and I feel Guard could benefit from that type of unit if it was properly implemented.
Blacksails wrote: How you model RRs is up to you, and the rules would work fine as them being on horses or motorcycles. I plan on my RRs eventually being on bikes when Vic releases her take on them.
I'm aware of that - but that doesn't help if I want a shooting focus.
I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).
JohnHwangDD wrote: RRs can take 2 Specials from 5 dudes - that's not a bad ratio.
A 65-pt min-size RR unit with 2 GLs can probably lob grenades all game long, and very likely earn its points back with interest.
The same unit is a stiff breeze away from dying, and two grenade shots are hardly killing a single marine per round.
Again, this comes back to the fact they have no defined purpose. They're expensive Guardsmen that hit a little harder in assault against the same targets the book already excels at killing at range where you don't have to worry about the enemy's assault phase.
At least 2x melta can go tank hunting, but BS3 keeps you pretty limited in that regard.
Vaktathi wrote: I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).
Bike mounted units have a lot of potential.
They have as much "potential" as cavalry that isn't Daemons.
Which is to say, none unless they're Astartes or Eldar.
Vaktathi wrote: I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).
Bike mounted units have a lot of potential.
They have as much "potential" as cavalry that isn't Daemons.
Which is to say, none unless they're Astartes or Eldar.
Bikes at least get higher T, relentless shooting, Jink, and aren't slowed (but can be hurt by) terrain, and generally have higher armor saves. Far more benefits than "cavalry" get, particularly for a place in a shooty army like IG. I think they'd work a whole lot better in the context of the army than a "cavalry" type unit would. Something like a C&C Nod bike (armored crotch rocket with TOW missiles on the sides) could be very cool.
That said, in general, the "Bike" rules really are 40k's way of portraying "knight" type armored cavalry much more than actual "cavalry" units are.
Vaktathi wrote: I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).
Bike mounted units have a lot of potential.
They have as much "potential" as cavalry that isn't Daemons.
Which is to say, none unless they're Astartes or Eldar.
Bikes at least get higher T, relentless shooting, Jink, and aren't slowed (but can be hurt by) terrain, and generally have higher armor saves. Far more benefits than "cavalry" get, particularly for a place in a shooty army like IG. I think they'd work a whole lot better in the context of the army than a "cavalry" type unit would. Something like a C&C Nod bike (armored crotch rocket with TOW missiles on the sides) could be very cool.
That said, in general, the "Bike" rules really are 40k's way of portraying "knight" type armored cavalry much more than actual "cavalry" units are.
When I say "potential", I'm referring not just to rules but also to the thematic element.
And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.
And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.
Armored Fist squads are still here, they're just something you make on your own by giving an infantry squad / vet squad a chimera.
And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.
Armored Fist squads are still here, they're just something you make on your own by giving an infantry squad / vet squad a chimera.
True--but could you imagine Armored Fist Squads actually designed for the role from the ground-up, with something like the Centaur or another open-topped vehicle allowing for the squad inside to just let loose with fire?
Vaktathi wrote: I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).
Bike mounted units have a lot of potential.
They have as much "potential" as cavalry that isn't Daemons.
Which is to say, none unless they're Astartes or Eldar.
Bikes at least get higher T, relentless shooting, Jink, and aren't slowed (but can be hurt by) terrain, and generally have higher armor saves. Far more benefits than "cavalry" get, particularly for a place in a shooty army like IG. I think they'd work a whole lot better in the context of the army than a "cavalry" type unit would. Something like a C&C Nod bike (armored crotch rocket with TOW missiles on the sides) could be very cool.
That said, in general, the "Bike" rules really are 40k's way of portraying "knight" type armored cavalry much more than actual "cavalry" units are.
When I say "potential", I'm referring not just to rules but also to the thematic element.
And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.
Armored fist squads are perfectly possible now...just take a chimera with a platoon infantry squad (or, more effectively, vets in a chimera), never needed to be its own unique unit entry in the first place.
Bikes could fit in just fine, it all depends on how they're designed. Again, something like a Nod Recon Bike could have potential, and there's certainly been some good examples of other possible incarnations as well.
I mean, if you just don't like the concept of the way bikers work in 40k in the first place, on a fundamental level, essentially as "cavalry" imported from Fantasy, I can agree with you there, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a thematically appropriate IG biker unit either.
Give Tank Commaders more orders. Like one that gives out Ignores cover. Make Vendettas cheaper or give them back their old transport capacity back. It's not 5/6th edition anymore. Three TL-Lascannons just isn't that impressive. Alternatively, make the 3 Twin-linked Lascannons just 6 regular Lascannons and give the Vendetta a special rule that allows it to fire all 6. That way it'll make for an effective tank hunter again.
Introduce a unit of field engineers that can set up kinetic barriers or something that can provide invuln saves to platoons. They really do need something to boost their survivability. Or just make them really cheap.
Vanquisher cannons need some kind of mechanism to make them more accurate. .50 hit rate is just unacceptable for a dedicated tank destroyer. Make them S: 8 AP: 1 Armorbane too.
Give some kind of defense to haywire grenades to Leman Russ tanks. Like a "Shielded Electronics" piece of optional wargear that gives a 4+ save against them.
Make some kind of multi-wound dealing shell available to Vanquishers. Like a special round that causes D2+1 wounds per hit or somesuch. Gives Guard some recourse against monstrous creatures like Wraithknights.
Really, what Guard needs is a boost to their ability to deal effective wounds. Sure, Guard can pour on fire like there is no tomorrow but most armies have a laundry list of ways to mitigate that damage. Single shot, High S and Low AP firepower just doesn't cut it anymore and that is what Guard is currently geared towards firing.
Haywire is an issue in general. It's being applied willy nilly with some of the newer books, and was never really adjusted after they introduced HP's.
It's one thing to glance a tank on a 2+ when it might shake the crew, destroy a weapon, or immobilize it. It's another when tanks all of a sudden have "wounds", and Haywire "wounds" on a 2+, and vehicles only typically have 2-3 "wounds" and no inherent saves, particularly non-skimmer vehicles.
Basically GW is liberally applying a mechanic unchanged from 3E to the 7E paradigm without having adjusted it for how vehicles have changed in the interim.
Vaktathi wrote: I mean, if you just don't like the concept of the way bikers work in 40k in the first place, on a fundamental level, essentially as "cavalry" imported from Fantasy, I can agree with you there, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a thematically appropriate IG biker unit either.
I don't like Bikes / Cavalry at all - but we have them, so it is what it is. However, as there are Tallarn RR models, I "need" a squad for completeness.
Firstly, I’d trade out the CCS for the method followed by the HH Solar Auxilia. The commander is an independent unit, while the Command Squad is filled with buffer units and/or vets. Then create a box similar to the Space Marine Commander box, so you can truly customize the look of your Company Commander.
Give Vanquishers the Beast Hunter round from the Armored Battle Group, as well as co-axial Heavy Stubbers/Autocannons.
Give tanks the ability to take Autocannon Sponsons for 35 points.
Have Grenade Launchers be able to fire Haywire grenades, like the Solar Auxilia.
Have Commissars and Medics come is units of 1-5 that can be split between other units, as an Elite choice.
Have Tempestus Veteran Command Squads become an HQ choice, with Tempestor Primes being Senior Officers.
Have Veteran Sergeants and regular Sergeants become Non-Commissioned Officers that may issue one order a turn to their own unit. If a Junior or Senior officer is in the same unit as a Non-Commissioned Officer, the NCO may not issue orders.
Make Tauri Fast Vehicles, and give them Smoke Launchers, while lowering their cost by 15 pts. Instead of making the Taurox Prime a Scion exclusive, make it an upgrade option to the regular Taurox for 30 points.
Give Tempestus S4/AP3 Assault 2 guns. Give them the option of specializations, similar to Veterans. Those can include a drop trooper specialization that lowers scatter on Deep Striking, one that gives a boost in CC (maybe Furious Charge/WS boost), and one that give them the ability to take Breacher Charges and EOD armor (3+ save, but cannot run/reduces cover save of the unit).
Give Tempestus Squads the ability to take Chimeras.
Make the Vendetta an upgrade for the Valkyrie, and include the Vulture in the main codex.
Create an Armored Fist unit in a Fast Chimera that comes with a Carapace armor and Shotguns that have Shred. Allow them to take 2 Flamers/Melta-Guns per unit.
Give Chimeras the Autocannon turret upgrade in the main codex.
Alternatively, recreate the Storm Chimera unit from the Krieg Assault list and give it fast, then give it to the Armored Fist unit.
Create a spotter unit to aid artillery. A 3-man squad with Deep Strike (or Infiltrate) and Shroud (as long as there is no character attached to the squad) that can target a unit within x" and give tanks that fire on that target reduced scatter or a re-roll to scatter.
Make Hydras be able to change "modes" between skyfire and non-Skyfire. Give it a one turn delay between being able to switch back to the previous mode. Return it’s ability to ignore jink saves, and make it an Elite choice.
Wyverns should get a points increase for balancing, as well as make them an Elite choice.
Give Enginseers the Bolster Defences special rule from Techmarines.
Add Rapier Laser Destroyers to the main codex.
Add Thunderer tanks to the main codex.
Make Assault Cannons a HWS choice.
Make Bullgryns an upgrade to Ogryns, similar to the option changes that Marine characters get from switching to Terminator armor.
General price drops are needed compared to other codices, especially with artillery and Baneblades. Baneblades are so much less survivable than Knights and Wraithlords, while having less damage output.
And finally, either remove the One-Use-Only from their Hunting Lances while giving the Death Rider stats or let Rough Riders die with what little dignity they have left.
Vaktathi wrote: I mean, if you just don't like the concept of the way bikers work in 40k in the first place, on a fundamental level, essentially as "cavalry" imported from Fantasy, I can agree with you there, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a thematically appropriate IG biker unit either.
I don't like Bikes / Cavalry at all - but we have them, so it is what it is. However, as there are Tallarn RR models, I "need" a squad for completeness.
We have them NOW, who's to say what we will have with a new book?
I can't send enough letters to Santa to get rid of stupid Rough Riders and Ratlings both. Guh. Awful, awful units thematically and visually.
Give some kind of defense to haywire grenades to Leman Russ tanks. Like a "Shielded Electronics" piece of optional wargear that gives a 4+ save against them.
That seems overly harsh against DE - who had their only other anti-tank weapon nerfed to hell in 6th/7th.
Give some kind of defense to haywire grenades to Leman Russ tanks. Like a "Shielded Electronics" piece of optional wargear that gives a 4+ save against them.
That seems overly harsh against DE - who had their only other anti-tank weapon nerfed to hell in 6th/7th.
To be fair, with how wonky IG vs DE games typically are, I don't think it'd make much difference either way there...
If I were to guess, in a possible 8E, it would not be unsurprising to see Haywire suffer the same fate as 4E Rending (changing Rending form auto-wounding on a 6 to-hit with no armor, to ignoring saves on a to-wound roll of 6), where it's just gotten so widespread outside of what it was initially intended for, and its newer applications are just so powerful, that it necessitates a nerf.
Haywire was one thing when it was restricted to grenades on relatively few units, usually one model per unit, but it's become another when its available on a special weapon able to be taken in 3's and Rapid-Fire'd with BS7 and 36" range 2 shot heavy weapons
I know what you mean, it's just annoying to see an already-suffering army suffer even more because GW has given all its good toys to much stronger armies - but better versions of said toys and fewer (if any) slot restrictions..
As everything was suppose to have been in ye old days of RT. I demend the return of combilas vortex grenaded launchers on every IG model. This would not only make it more fun for me to play with, but also would enrich the game with more fluff.
Makumba wrote: As everything was suppose to have been in ye old days of RT. I demend the return of combilas vortex grenaded launchers on every IG model. This would not only make it more fun for me to play with, but also would enrich the game with more fluff.
Haha, if they did that all the people who glued Grenade Launchers onto their Guardsman would all shout, "Who's laughing now?!".
vipoid wrote: I know what you mean, it's just annoying to see an already-suffering army suffer even more because GW has given all its good toys to much stronger armies - but better versions of said toys and fewer (if any) slot restrictions..
Absolutely. Unfortunately that's the way GW likes to do things for some reason. Rending, Haywire, Tank squadrons, etc
Makumba wrote: As everything was suppose to have been in ye old days of RT. I demend the return of combilas vortex grenaded launchers on every IG model. This would not only make it more fun for me to play with, but also would enrich the game with more fluff.
Well that would certainly be a...thing. With the way the game's going and how formations work, and some people's unfathomably positive attitudes towards them, I would only be mildly surprised to see this.
If GW were smart they would pull a Peter Molyneaux and state that 7th edition was badly handled and that 8th edition will be so much better even if it really isn't. But no GW is the Porsche of miniature wargaming and everything they make and do is perfect.
Back on topic, I would also like to see Hydras being able to engage ground targets effectively. In real life, ground based AA guns/platforms also happened to be good against non-flying targets as well. The M17 GMC and the Flak 88 are examples of this.
I'm blown away that anyone would suggest taking away units from any codex. Everyone has different opinions on units and the way they fit into the universe.
I personally love rough riders, have been using them for several editions now, and have spent a large amount of time making mine fit into the style of my Mordian Iron Guard.
I do not like Ogryns at all, yet understand that others do and so would never advocate them being removed from the codex.
TheCustomLime wrote: If GW were smart they would pull a Peter Molyneaux and state that 7th edition was badly handled and that 8th edition will be so much better even if it really isn't. But no GW is the Porsche of miniature wargaming and everything they make and do is perfect.
Back on topic, I would also like to see Hydras being able to engage ground targets effectively. In real life, ground based AA guns/platforms also happened to be good against non-flying targets as well. The M17 GMC and the Flak 88 are examples of this.
Absolutely, AA weapons have historically been put to use with great effect against ground targets, often better than against air targets. That restriction on "Skyfire" weapons in general is rather absurd. As is the idea that blasts can't hit flyers, as Flak is fundamentally a blast/shrapnel weapon.
Much win and truth, pretty much a fix to everything that is wrong with the codex
Vakathi, I am at the point of starting a Kickstarter to get you promoted to head codex writer at GW!
If we need something it is a general dropping of the prices across the board coupled with the upgrading of a lot of our stuff. Perhaps a special rule which gives the Vanquisher a +4 on the damage chart too.
To those that asked why IG players hate to see SH's in standard ill tell you why: We are realists. We, as a player segment, are also amongst the most practical too. We know what this game should be like and after having gone from nerf to nerf (I am still not happy about seeing our Evisecrator being taken and handed to the SM player. Its not like they even needed it anyway) and have seen our once balanced army crumble around us.
But we remember. We remember when the SH vehicles where rare and limited to Apocalypse games. We remember when even then it was rare to see more than one Baneblade or Shadowsword. We remember when Apocalypse games where not merely standard 40K games on a slightly larger scale but something else, something better, something more.
We remember what this game used to be like. And we can only look upon it and weep.
Ignatius wrote: I'm blown away that anyone would suggest taking away units from any codex. Everyone has different opinions on units and the way they fit into the universe.
I personally love rough riders, have been using them for several editions now, and have spent a large amount of time making mine fit into the style of my Mordian Iron Guard.
I do not like Ogryns at all, yet understand that others do and so would never advocate them being removed from the codex.
The difference is that Ogryn(and Bullgryn) have now been made to fit in a lot better with the Guard and its aesthetic.
Rough Riders are holdovers from a much different time.
Does it suck that people would lose the ability to field models they've spent time converting? Absolutely. But they just don't work outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.
Well what I would love to see is a Detachment like the new Marine one centered on the old 1 HQ and 1 Infantry Platoon.
I love running a Single Platoon, but with the CAD I now have to a Vet Squad and it wrecks my whole theme.
TheCustomLime wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if GW did away with formations in 8th/9th edition after they milk the market dry with them.
At this point I think a 3E style reboot is an increasingly likely probability
The game is running into, and running off with, many of the same issues that plagued 2E, necessitating a reboot.
40k 7E is worse than 2E. 2E had fewer factions, each of which was smaller with fewer kinds of things. Now, everything has chromey rules that individually nearly as bad as the 2E stuff. 40k is bloated and slow. The only good thing is that we don't have to buy a separate Apoc supplement to get all of the common rules.
A 3E reboot would be ideal. But it should start with Unbound, and retain Formations. Formations are great stuff, as are Superheavies and GCs. Too bad GW missed the boat with 6E, and we've all been paying for it since then.
A 3E reboot would be ideal. But it should start with Unbound, and retain Formations. Formations are great stuff, as are Superheavies and GCs.
I disagree - I think formations are a big part of what's wrong with the current game. Most are, at best, a way to take units you'd take anyway but get a bonus for doing so. At worst, they're a way to spam already OP units, and get yet more bonuses as a reward for doing so.
If they absolutely must be in the game, then I think they should either be a 1-per-army thing, or else add an additional cost to the units - so that the bonus is paid for.
Also, I'd much rather Apocalypse units be split off again and this time stay in apocalypse. That way the rules might actually support those units - as opposed to their "rules" just being a list of rules they ignore.
Much win and truth, pretty much a fix to everything that is wrong with the codex
Vakathi, I am at the point of starting a Kickstarter to get you promoted to head codex writer at GW!
vipoid wrote:
I disagree - I think formations are a bog part of what's wrong with the current game. Most are, at best, a way to take units you'd take anyway but get a bonus for doing so. At worst, they're a way to spam already OP units, and get yet more bonuses as a reward for doing so.
I agree completely. Formations are one of the biggest balance problems the game faces.
I've also yet to see a formation taken because "well it's fluffy!". It's always "I can spam more of X" or "I get this *insane* ability for using Y formation" or "I don't have to pay for upgrades with Z formation".
If they at least had some hefty points costs attached to them, one could accept them. But the whole free abilities and/or wargear for zero points is absolutely absurd and inherently massively unbalanced.
A 3E reboot would be ideal. But it should start with Unbound, and retain Formations. Formations are great stuff, as are Superheavies and GCs.
I disagree - I think formations are a big part of what's wrong with the current game. Most are, at best, a way to take units you'd take anyway but get a bonus for doing so. At worst, they're a way to spam already OP units, and get yet more bonuses as a reward for doing so.
If they absolutely must be in the game, then I think they should either be a 1-per-army thing, or else add an additional cost to the units - so that the bonus is paid for.
Also, I'd much rather Apocalypse units be split off again and this time stay in apocalypse. That way the rules might actually support those units - as opposed to their "rules" just being a list of rules they ignore.
What is really bad with formations is the gargantuan power gaps between tem. Take the Imperial Guard Steel Host one for instance, you have to take a Tank Commander, three 3 Tank Leman Russ squadrons and a Hydra. If you do this then every tank within 12" of the command tank gains Fearless, Fear, Counterattack and Preffered Enemy.
Now this seems okay doesnt it? Nothing really game breakingly powerful but the buffs are nice.
And then you see the flaws
'Counterattack'. 'Fearless'. What use are these rules to tanks? Vehicles are immune to fear and so giving a tank fearless does nothing and Counterattack just gives you the benefits of charging if you are charged by the enemy. But tanks cant fight in CC anyway so it is pointless. And to tell the truth most of the benefits of fear do nothing either as tanks are always hit on a 3+ no matter what the attackers WS.
So in essence you are gaining Preffered Enemy and Fear. So it goes from being medicore to out right useless (Who lets their tanks get that close anyway?)
Now compare this to the Demi Company formation or the Skyhammer formation.
Look at the difference in power levels.
Weep.
I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.
You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.
Makumba wrote: I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.
This would suck. Besides being incredibly tactically boring, I would hate to do this to my opponent. Stuff like this just isn't fun or dynamic. It's bad game design.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.
You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.
No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.
You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.
No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.
That wasnt a formation, that was some kind of thing you had to pay points for if I remember rightly.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.
You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.
No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.
That wasnt a formation, that was some kind of thing you had to pay points for if I remember rightly.
It was a formation, back when Formations were Apocalypse only and had a points cost attached.
Ignatius wrote: I'm blown away that anyone would suggest taking away units from any codex. Everyone has different opinions on units and the way they fit into the universe.
I personally love rough riders, have been using them for several editions now, and have spent a large amount of time making mine fit into the style of my Mordian Iron Guard.
I do not like Ogryns at all, yet understand that others do and so would never advocate them being removed from the codex.
Does it suck that people would lose the ability to field models they've spent time converting? Absolutely. But they just don't work outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.
Can you explain why you think this? I'm not following. Why does it work for Krieg but couldn't possibly work for any other regiment? The whole idea behind the guard is that there are so many different styles in their armies that nearly anything is possible.
Why can Ogryn be changed to fit into the style but Rough Riders can't?
I really just am not following your train of thought here. I think I did a pretty damn good job of making my Rough Riders look like they belonged in my army, yet you think I shouldn't be able to have them because they don't fit?
I agree with Ignatius. It's terrible to have units Squatted, to say nothing of having your entire army Squatted. Just leave them around, even if they are less efficient.
Makumba wrote: I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.
This would suck. Besides being incredibly tactically boring, I would hate to do this to my opponent. Stuff like this just isn't fun or dynamic. It's bad game design.
Because having whole army pined and blown on your opponent turn is less boring and more fun. In 6th both players could have fun playing w40k. Maybe not always, maybe not for all factions. In 7th only one person can have fun most of the time, and in the case of IG it is almost always not the IG players. Unless it is something like tailored IG with 9+ wyverns vs orc tide list.
master of ordinance wrote:Take the Imperial Guard Steel Host one for instance, you have to take a Tank Commander, three 3 Tank Leman Russ squadrons and a Hydra. If you do this then every tank within 12" of the command tank gains Fearless, Fear, Counterattack and Preffered Enemy.
It only gives preferred enemy, none of the other things.
JohnHwangDD wrote:No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.
On my Coordinates is my favourite ever rule. I used to use platoons to bait the enemy and then blast the 3 of my guys who were left and wipe out so many marines. I would love to have a similar rule in a new Codex, maybe one that allows your basilisks to target your own conscripts. That would definitely get people playing basilisks again.
Because it's lazy and stupid. It doesn't need to be its own item, and what's more it's lazy and stupid.
People whine about the Taurox? The Vendetta is about a hundred times worse.
If anything I'm ok with the points increase, but let them carry 12 models again...
Hahahaha, NOPE. It had no business being able to carry anyone to begin with, much less a full capacity.
You want a "gunship"?
Then get a gunship.
Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.
I couldn't disagree with you more. But while we are on it, let's get rid of transport capacity in storm Ravens too
Better yet - lets get rid of Storm Ravens, Centurions, Dredd Knights, Logans Sleigh and other abombinations
They wont because they dont want to retool all the different cooler regiments since there are many 3rd party producer of better IG stuff.
Yeah I agree re the regimentsa and GW BUT having them would make the Codex better IMO
So you want 4th edition guard codex then? And everyone else to lose their cool new toys, too?m
JohnHwangDD wrote:You act as if 150 points was a fair cost for those assets. It was not, not even close, or I never would have taken it.
That's why that particular version of the formation was replaced with some watered down thing that apparently uses worthless Bullgryns?
Under 7E, those bonuses would be free and fair.
Undercosted or not at least it costed SOMETHING. It was also Apocalypse only if I remember (all formations where back then IIR)
Trickstick wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:Take the Imperial Guard Steel Host one for instance, you have to take a Tank Commander, three 3 Tank Leman Russ squadrons and a Hydra. If you do this then every tank within 12" of the command tank gains Fearless, Fear, Counterattack and Preffered Enemy.
It only gives preferred enemy, none of the other things.
Allow me to correct myself: It gives one semi useful at best rule. For a minimal (and this is bare bones without the upgrades and using the cheapest vehicles bare bones) 700 points.
Given what the other favoured armies are getting I would want a little more than that.
Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
Vaktathi wrote: I've also yet to see a formation taken because "well it's fluffy!". It's always "I can spam more of X" or "I get this *insane* ability for using Y formation" or "I don't have to pay for upgrades with Z formation".
If they at least had some hefty points costs attached to them, one could accept them. But the whole free abilities and/or wargear for zero points is absolutely absurd and inherently massively unbalanced.
No kidding. I ran the assassins execution force formation just for funsies in an apoc game. It's not one of the more powerful formations, but it is hilariously unfluffy. Nothing more fluffy than the Officio Assassinorum throwing up their hands and saying "whelp, this guy's gotta go. We could put together a carefully thought out plan, or we could just send a bunch of random assassins after him and see what happens. Because nothing says meticulous specialization and discretion like throwing the kitchen sink at a problem."
Vaktathi wrote: I've also yet to see a formation taken because "well it's fluffy!". It's always "I can spam more of X" or "I get this *insane* ability for using Y formation" or "I don't have to pay for upgrades with Z formation".
If they at least had some hefty points costs attached to them, one could accept them. But the whole free abilities and/or wargear for zero points is absolutely absurd and inherently massively unbalanced.
No kidding. I ran the assassins execution force formation just for funsies in an apoc game. It's not one of the more powerful formations, but it is hilariously unfluffy. Nothing more fluffy than the Officio Assassinorum throwing up their hands and saying "whelp, this guy's gotta go. We could put together a carefully thought out plan, or we could just send a bunch of random assassins after him and see what happens. Because nothing says meticulous specialization and discretion like throwing the kitchen sink at a problem."
One of the CSM codices(I want to say 3rd?) actually had something just like that occuring; an Execution Force going after Abaddon's Chosen.
1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.
On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!
I'm so happy that someone mentioned the Basilisk.... I love that big gun and I would love it so much more if it was good...
Something really needs to be done about Sentinels. I love the little things both model wise and conceptually. AT-STs in my Guard army? Yes please! Only problem is that they suck. I think what Sentinels need is some way to buff their firepower or their durability. Maybe give them some sort of reroll to hit system for their guns or something?
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
I know what you mean, but then I think the same about bikes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but bikes were typically used for messengers and such - they weren't just sent to the front line to do the equivalent of a cavalry-charge.
What's worse is GW's rules for bikes. Apparently, riding a bike makes you:
- Tougher (those WWII bilkers were infamous for there ability to just shrug off direct missile strikes)
- Able to aim at targets in any direction with a front-mounted weapon
- Able to ride and fire heavy weapons much easier than on foot because... reasons. Also, there's no penalty for trying to aim such weapons whilst riding a bike - that's easy. And yet, apparently shooting a moving flier is impossible even for the most skilled soldier.
1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules. 2. Hydras need Interceptor. 3. #lolroughriders 4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88? 5. #derpratlings 6. Price drop on Scions.
On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!
I'm so happy that someone mentioned the Basilisk.... I love that big gun and I would love it so much more if it was good...
Going by the Vindicator formation.
I have a feeling its gona be like take 3 get ignore cover FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Makumba wrote: I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.
This would suck. Besides being incredibly tactically boring, I would hate to do this to my opponent. Stuff like this just isn't fun or dynamic. It's bad game design.
Because having whole army pined and blown on your opponent turn is less boring and more fun. In 6th both players could have fun playing w40k. Maybe not always, maybe not for all factions. In 7th only one person can have fun most of the time, and in the case of IG it is almost always not the IG players. Unless it is something like tailored IG with 9+ wyverns vs orc tide list.
Well, that's hyperbolic as feth but I'll say yea, it is more fun. Because it's during the freakin game.
1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.
On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!
I'm so happy that someone mentioned the Basilisk.... I love that big gun and I would love it so much more if it was good...
Going by the Vindicator formation.
I have a feeling its gona be like take 3 get ignore cover FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
or something like that. (Edit: For the basil)
Basilisk should be ignoring cover anyways.
Keep the minimum range and Indirect Fire; make direct fire ability an upgrade that requires a separate shell and uses a smaller blast template.
Units of 3 Basilisks use the Apocalypse 'Four Leaf Clover' template.
I liked the old Cityfight rule that made ordnance weapons -1 to cover saves and Strength 9+ ordnance was -2 to cover saves. So the basilisk was -2 on cover saves, which made it incredibly deadly.
TheSilo wrote: I liked the old Cityfight rule that made ordnance weapons -1 to cover saves and Strength 9+ ordnance was -2 to cover saves. So the basilisk was -2 on cover saves, which made it incredibly deadly.
Would love all of that too. but current Terrain rules are bleh
Also the prevelence of shrouded things getting 2+ saves forever in ruins.
Which is why i would prefer the ignore cover rule on a unit of 3 basks.
As I mentioned earlier, I think the motorcycle and side car sw teams could be awesome, either with heavy bolters or heavy stubbers. A fast moving unit that could potentially jink could do a lot for the guard.
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
I know what you mean, but then I think the same about bikes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but bikes were typically used for messengers and such - they weren't just sent to the front line to do the equivalent of a cavalry-charge.
What's worse is GW's rules for bikes. Apparently, riding a bike makes you:
- Tougher (those WWII bilkers were infamous for there ability to just shrug off direct missile strikes)
- Able to aim at targets in any direction with a front-mounted weapon
- Able to ride and fire heavy weapons much easier than on foot because... reasons. Also, there's no penalty for trying to aim such weapons whilst riding a bike - that's easy. And yet, apparently shooting a moving flier is impossible even for the most skilled soldier.
All true
Although, they could also make an interesting transport option. Bike mounted infantry, essentially Dragoons, start on the board and get to run around with huge speed for the first bit, then disembark and fight as infantry, for like 20pts or something? That could be fun.
I really don't see any problem with current gard. Make their heavy weapons cheaper is about the only thing I think they really need. Maybe like others suggested - a bike unit that had some toughness and mobility could be a great addition to the AM.
Xenomancers wrote: I really don't see any problem with current gard. Make their heavy weapons cheaper is about the only thing I think they really need. Maybe like others suggested - a bike unit that had some toughness and mobility could be a great addition to the AM.
the issues Guard have is in the Elite and a bit of the FA section. as well as the price of basils and the fact that Lemons are not heavy.
I think Platoons should also have a slot for a big'un like a Leman Russ or a Basilisk. Mordian Iron Guard does have a somewhat similar system in place when it comes to their armor but having one Leman Russ per squad would be impractical. I think having an attached piece of armor would both free up the heavily contested HS slots and better represent some Regiment's fighting style.
With all the talk of the bikes floating around, it would probably be a good unit to put in the elite slot and leave the fast attack slots open for hell hounds and flyers.
They could do a lot of things, but I imagine we'll get some sort of decurion/warhost/gladius thing.
1+ Core, 1+ Auxilia, 0-1 Command.
Command would be company command squads, company commander characters, and maybe Lord Commissars or Tank Commanders.
Core would be an infantry platoon, with a bunch of 0-X options for vets, conscripts, company or platoon command squads, and transports.
Auxilia would be formations for a bunch of the rest, like a rough rider formation, or sentinal patrol party, or leman russ tank platoon.
If you take the Shield of the Imperium formation (calling it now) you get to re-roll all orders, everything is obsec, and you get free chimeras. Or russes. Both. Free arty. All weapon upgrades are free.
The rough rider formation would grant them fear. And if we're lucky, soul blaze too. That'll make them super OP.
Blacksails wrote: They could do a lot of things, but I imagine we'll get some sort of decurion/warhost/gladius thing.
1+ Core, 1+ Auxilia, 0-1 Command.
Command would be company command squads, company commander characters, and maybe Lord Commissars or Tank Commanders.
Core would be an infantry platoon, with a bunch of 0-X options for vets, conscripts, company or platoon command squads, and transports.
Auxilia would be formations for a bunch of the rest, like a rough rider formation, or sentinal patrol party, or leman russ tank platoon.
If you take the Shield of the Imperium formation (calling it now) you get to re-roll all orders, everything is obsec, and you get free chimeras. Or russes. Both. Free arty. All weapon upgrades are free.
The rough rider formation would grant them fear. And if we're lucky, soul blaze too. That'll make them super OP.
I don't think it'll be called that. Not enough faux pig-Latin.
Anvilum Imperialis Miltaria. With a Web Exclusive formation consisting of 9 Wyverns which gains +1 Strength, Rending and only scatters a 1D6. Call it... uhh... The Astra Militarum Siegus Gunnus formation.
Blacksails wrote:I'd love for sentinels to be incorporated as troops or intergrated into platoons.
TheCustomLime wrote:
That would be interesting. Take them instead of your Heavy Weapons Team allotments to represent a scouting/mobile force?
Elysians can take a squadron of Drop Sentinels (Sentinels with Multi-melta, Heavy Flamer or Heavy Bolter) in our Platoons instead of getting access to Conscript squads.
It's not broken, even with Deep Strike - partly because we pay something like fifty points per Sentinel.
Even with it, most people who field Sentinels field them as Elites choices because Platoons are substandard compared to Veterans and all our support options are so expensive.
TheCustomLime wrote: Anvilum Imperialis Miltaria. With a Web Exclusive formation consisting of 9 Wyverns which gains +1 Strength, Rending and only scatters a 1D6. Call it... uhh... The Astra Militarum Siegus Gunnus formation.
You need a command chimera in there for extra sale - errr, fluff...narrative, yeah.
Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
Also Astra Millitarium is awful. IG forever.
All I got out of this was: "Stop having fun in a different way than I do".
Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
Also Astra Millitarium is awful. IG forever.
All I got out of this was: "Stop having fun in a different way than I do".
Plus him saying that really makes me wish there was an option for Dragoons, so I could have Dragoons, Heavy Dragoons, Light Dragoons, Command Dragoons and then some straight up Cavalry for support.
Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
Also Astra Millitarium is awful. IG forever.
All I got out of this was: "Stop having fun in a different way than I do".
Plus him saying that really makes me wish there was an option for Dragoons, so I could have Dragoons, Heavy Dragoons, Light Dragoons, Command Dragoons and then some straight up Cavalry for support.
Not only do I hope Rough Riders get better, I've actually been wishing for an option to make entire platoons with command squads and advisors mounted on horses. That'd be incredible... To me at least
That said, 40k is full of stuff that makes zero tactical sense. Most of the time, people just say something along the lines of "you can't bring logic into this game" or something. Yet when it comes to using cavalry it becomes appropriate to analyze them in that exact same way.
Rough Riders are a symptom of what ails the book; a holdover to the days of yesteryear and the constant placation of fans who want to keep fielding models older than some of the players of this game.
Personally, again, I want Rough Riders removed not because "Stop having fun different than how I have fun!" but rather because I see no need for them outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.
Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
Also Astra Millitarium is awful. IG forever.
All I got out of this was: "Stop having fun in a different way than I do".
Plus him saying that really makes me wish there was an option for Dragoons, so I could have Dragoons, Heavy Dragoons, Light Dragoons, Command Dragoons and then some straight up Cavalry for support.
Not only do I hope Rough Riders get better, I've actually been wishing for an option to make entire platoons with command squads and advisors mounted on horses. That'd be incredible... To me at least
That said, 40k is full of stuff that makes zero tactical sense. Most of the time, people just say something along the lines of "you can't bring logic into this game" or something. Yet when it comes to using cavalry it becomes appropriate to analyze them in that exact same way.
Paint them all blue with Red or Gold Stripes on the Legs and give the Officers Stetsons. They can be the CAV vs the Orks Indians.
Fun fact about Dragoons, not related to US CAV, but in the 70s Portugal created a Dragoon Unit to work closely with their Air CAV to fight Rebels in Africa. It was highly effective.
Paint them all blue with Red or Gold Stripes on the Legs and give the Officers Stetsons. They can be the CAV vs the Orks Indians.
Fun fact about Dragoons, not related to US CAV, but in the 70s Portugal created a Dragoon Unit to work closely with their Air CAV to fight Rebels in Africa. It was highly effective.
And during the initial invasion of Afghanistan, the Northern tribes mounted a cavalry charge against a Taliban position. It was successful as all hell.
But that doesn't mean anything in the context of this thread, does it?
Paint them all blue with Red or Gold Stripes on the Legs and give the Officers Stetsons. They can be the CAV vs the Orks Indians.
Fun fact about Dragoons, not related to US CAV, but in the 70s Portugal created a Dragoon Unit to work closely with their Air CAV to fight Rebels in Africa. It was highly effective.
And during the initial invasion of Afghanistan, the Northern tribes mounted a cavalry charge against a Taliban position. It was successful as all hell.
But that doesn't mean anything in the context of this thread, does it?
Well just pardon me all to hell. Who'd of thought having fun with something in a thread was bad wrong?
Remove the hobbits, one step closer to fixing the book.
Paint them all blue with Red or Gold Stripes on the Legs and give the Officers Stetsons. They can be the CAV vs the Orks Indians.
Fun fact about Dragoons, not related to US CAV, but in the 70s Portugal created a Dragoon Unit to work closely with their Air CAV to fight Rebels in Africa. It was highly effective.
And during the initial invasion of Afghanistan, the Northern tribes mounted a cavalry charge against a Taliban position. It was successful as all hell.
But that doesn't mean anything in the context of this thread, does it?
Well just pardon me all to hell. Who'd of thought having fun with something in a thread was bad wrong?
YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER VICTOR! YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!
Remove the hobbits, one step closer to fixing the book.
Rough Riders can stay.
Or they can leave as well.
Halflings and Rough Riders are, again, holdovers. They have no business being around anymore.
Halflings were only there because in Fantasy the Empire had their Halflings serving as cooks and marksmen.
There is a lot of room for new and interesting replacements for Rough Riders. Trained warbeasts, for example, would make more sense than Rough Riders themselves.
Kanluwen wrote:This is about "fixing the IG codex".
Rough Riders are a symptom of what ails the book; a holdover to the days of yesteryear and the constant placation of fans who want to keep fielding models older than some of the players of this game.
Personally, again, I want Rough Riders removed not because "Stop having fun different than how I have fun!" but rather because I see no need for them outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.
No, this is about you wanting something removed because it doesn't fit in your army or the way you'd like to play. In what way does "fixing" a codex involve removing the bad units? Should Codex Chaos Space Marines remove Warp Talons because they are bad? Or Defilers? Should Codex Dark Eldar remove Wyches because they are bad? The same can be said with any codex. The answer is no, obviously, you don't get rid of bad units. You change them in hopes that they will become better.
And I understand completely that you want them removed because they don't fit your idea of the way the army works. But yes, that pretty much exactly translates to "Stop having fun different than how I have fun!".
Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case
Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.
Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.
Also Astra Millitarium is awful. IG forever.
All I got out of this was: "Stop having fun in a different way than I do".
Plus him saying that really makes me wish there was an option for Dragoons, so I could have Dragoons, Heavy Dragoons, Light Dragoons, Command Dragoons and then some straight up Cavalry for support.
Not only do I hope Rough Riders get better, I've actually been wishing for an option to make entire platoons with command squads and advisors mounted on horses. That'd be incredible... To me at least
That said, 40k is full of stuff that makes zero tactical sense. Most of the time, people just say something along the lines of "you can't bring logic into this game" or something. Yet when it comes to using cavalry it becomes appropriate to analyze them in that exact same way.
Paint them all blue with Red or Gold Stripes on the Legs and give the Officers Stetsons. They can be the CAV vs the Orks Indians.
Fun fact about Dragoons, not related to US CAV, but in the 70s Portugal created a Dragoon Unit to work closely with their Air CAV to fight Rebels in Africa. It was highly effective.
Funnily enough, I actually am an officer in a US Army Scout Cavalry unit, and have been debating making a unit like that to combat my brothers newly acquired Ork army.
Kanluwen wrote:
YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER VICTOR! YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!
One of these days I'll learn
Or they can leave as well.
Halflings and Rough Riders are, again, holdovers. They have no business being around anymore.
Halflings were only there because in Fantasy the Empire had their Halflings serving as cooks and marksmen.
There is a lot of room for new and interesting replacements for Rough Riders. Trained warbeasts, for example, would make more sense than Rough Riders themselves.
Sure they could come up with something better, but between them and the Halflings if we had to lose only one, I would choose the hobbits
Ignatius wrote:
Funnily enough, I actually am an officer in a US Army Scout Cavalry unit, and have been debating making a unit like that to combat my brothers newly acquired Ork army.
Kanluwen wrote:This is about "fixing the IG codex".
Rough Riders are a symptom of what ails the book; a holdover to the days of yesteryear and the constant placation of fans who want to keep fielding models older than some of the players of this game.
Personally, again, I want Rough Riders removed not because "Stop having fun different than how I have fun!" but rather because I see no need for them outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.
No, this is about you wanting something removed because it doesn't fit in your army or the way you'd like to play. In what way does "fixing" a codex involve removing the bad units? Should Codex Chaos Space Marines remove Warp Talons because they are bad? Or Defilers? Should Codex Dark Eldar remove Wyches because they are bad? The same can be said with any codex. The answer is no, obviously, you don't get rid of bad units. You change them in hopes that they will become better.
There is a difference between "removing something because it doesn't fit the aesthetic of the army" and "I don't like how it plays/it sucks on the tabletop".
If we get plastic Vostroyans as a flagship regiment, with plastic Vostroyan Rough Riders on cybernetically enhanced horses? Sweet! It fits the aesthetic again! If we get Rough Riders renamed to "Attilan Rough Riders" with appropriate models and background to say that the Rough Riders are similar to the Scions and Stormtroopers, wherein they get shipped to warzones as part of a larger force--again, sweet! It works!
But as it stands now? They look wildly out of place and there is no way outside of heavy conversions, trawling feeBay, or Forge World to get appropriate models. So get 'em out of here and design a new unit to take their place.
Kanluwen wrote:This is about "fixing the IG codex".
Rough Riders are a symptom of what ails the book; a holdover to the days of yesteryear and the constant placation of fans who want to keep fielding models older than some of the players of this game.
Personally, again, I want Rough Riders removed not because "Stop having fun different than how I have fun!" but rather because I see no need for them outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.
No, this is about you wanting something removed because it doesn't fit in your army or the way you'd like to play. In what way does "fixing" a codex involve removing the bad units? Should Codex Chaos Space Marines remove Warp Talons because they are bad? Or Defilers? Should Codex Dark Eldar remove Wyches because they are bad? The same can be said with any codex. The answer is no, obviously, you don't get rid of bad units. You change them in hopes that they will become better.
There is a difference between "removing something because it doesn't fit the aesthetic of the army" and "I don't like how it plays/it sucks on the tabletop".
If we get plastic Vostroyans as a flagship regiment, with plastic Vostroyan Rough Riders on cybernetically enhanced horses? Sweet! It fits the aesthetic again! If we get Rough Riders renamed to "Attilan Rough Riders" with appropriate models and background to say that the Rough Riders are similar to the Scions and Stormtroopers, wherein they get shipped to warzones as part of a larger force--again, sweet! It works!
But as it stands now? They look wildly out of place and there is no way outside of heavy conversions, trawling feeBay, or Forge World to get appropriate models. So get 'em out of here and design a new unit to take their place.
Hmm. I think I see where you're coming from now. If you're talking about the current models being sold now as not looking right, then that I'll agree with you on.
However, I still don't agree about removing a unit for, well, any reason really. What about all of us who did make a concerted and dedicated effort in converting Rough Riders to look like the rest of their army? I get the Attilans look out of place, but mine look just like the rest of my Mordians. An army of dress uniform wearing, formation marchers, etc. looks perfectly natural next to a cavalry unit.
I think the answer to the Rough Riders not fitting the look of the Guard is actually to make a plastic Attillan infantry box. I think mongol-inspired Guard regiments could be pretty awesome.
It sucks that you lose something you've worked hard on, but in my opinion, it really would be best for the army as a whole for them to start dropping some of the older stuff in favor of moving forwards.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: I think the answer to the Rough Riders not fitting the look of the Guard is actually to make a plastic Attillan infantry box. I think mongol-inspired Guard regiments could be pretty awesome.
Or just remove the background about Rough Riders being from "various planets" and make Attila similar to the way Stormtroopers/Scions operate:
A single way oversized "regiment" that deploys elements to warzones piecemeal.
Kanluwen wrote: It sucks that you lose something you've worked hard on, but in my opinion, it really would be best for the army as a whole for them to start dropping some of the older stuff in favor of moving forwards.
Moving forwards to what end?
Sounds easy for you to say, but as I said I worked hard on them and enjoy their presence. Therefore, I will rage against the dying of the light*
Kanluwen wrote: It sucks that you lose something you've worked hard on, but in my opinion, it really would be best for the army as a whole for them to start dropping some of the older stuff in favor of moving forwards.
Moving forwards to what end?
I can't say. I don't know where to go, but I really do feel like their insistence on keeping the older regiments that are still metal only around has been a hindrance rather than a help.
Sounds easy for you to say, but as I said I worked hard on them and enjoy their presence. Therefore, I will rage against the dying of the light*
*oops I mean Rough Riders
You might think it's easy for me to say, but I have three pounds of metal Kasrkin models that represent my army from the Doctrine Codex timeframe; where I ran a Kasrkin army(with heavy weapons teams to boot).
Kanluwen wrote: It sucks that you lose something you've worked hard on, but in my opinion, it really would be best for the army as a whole for them to start dropping some of the older stuff in favor of moving forwards.
Moving forwards to what end?
I can't say. I don't know where to go, but I really do feel like their insistence on keeping the older regiments that are still metal only around has been a hindrance rather than a help.
Sounds easy for you to say, but as I said I worked hard on them and enjoy their presence. Therefore, I will rage against the dying of the light*
*oops I mean Rough Riders
You might think it's easy for me to say, but I have three pounds of metal Kasrkin models that represent my army from the Doctrine Codex timeframe; where I ran a Kasrkin army(with heavy weapons teams to boot).
Maybe they should just do the old regiments in plastic then
But I too have about 40 metal Kasrkin which used to be used for the "Grenadiers" doctrine from the... 3rd edition? 4th? I don't even remember anymore. That said, I loved those models.
Xenomancers wrote: I really don't see any problem with current gard. Make their heavy weapons cheaper is about the only thing I think they really need. Maybe like others suggested - a bike unit that had some toughness and mobility could be a great addition to the AM.
Half the units in the codex never see a table, and haven't since well, ever . The vast majority of the units are overcosted and stuck in a 5E or sometimes 3E paradigm.
Kanluwen wrote: I vote we make Leman Russ Superheavy Vehicles.
If a Wraithknight can be a "Gargantuan Monstrous Creature", then by God a Leman Russ can be a Superheavy!
Not sure if you meant this tongue-in-cheek, but this isn't a bad idea. It elminates the Ordnance problem, and it would also allow the LR to fire at multiple targets that better suit it's assortment of weapons. There's nothing OP about BS3 split-fire, and it would give our tanks more versatility.
As for Rough Riders, I have to think the next codex will either drop them or give them new plastics and updated rules. Like Kan, I think the aesthetic (and concept) don't fit the army in 2015, but more options for people to create unique lists isn't a bad thing, either.
Kanluwen wrote: I vote we make Leman Russ Superheavy Vehicles.
If a Wraithknight can be a "Gargantuan Monstrous Creature", then by God a Leman Russ can be a Superheavy!
Not sure if you meant this tongue-in-cheek, but this isn't a bad idea. It elminates the Ordnance problem, and it would also allow the LR to fire at multiple targets that better suit it's assortment of weapons. There's nothing OP about BS3 split-fire, and it would give our tanks more versatility.
It absolutely was tongue-in-cheek, but it was more because of how big of an issue the lack of split-fire and firing their Ordnance is right now with Leman Russ.
As for Rough Riders, I have to think the next codex will either drop them or give them new plastics and updated rules. Like Kan, I think the aesthetic (and concept) don't fit the army in 2015, but more options for people to create unique lists isn't a bad thing, either.
It's not a bad thing at all, and I really do hate to be the "WRONGBADFUN!" guy that I've been here but it really does feel to me like a lot of the "older stuff" that gets kept as holdovers damages the books that exist--not just the IG.
I'll say it again since I've been ignored, but the only reason the Attillans don't fit the "aesthetic" of the Guard in 2015 is because said aesthetic has been reduced to Cadians and Catachans in plastic, with Elysians and Death Korps in resin... and it is very rare to see anyone with any of the metal Mordians, Valhallans, Tallarns, Steel Legionnaires or Vostroyans mixed into their army.
The Attillans fit in just fine when you play the army as its meant to be played, as an ad-hoc formation made up of units from several regiments, rather than just going with two - your infantry regiment and your armoured regiment with maybe some navy support.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'll say it again since I've been ignored, but the only reason the Attillans don't fit the "aesthetic" of the Guard in 2015 is because said aesthetic has been reduced to Cadians and Catachans in plastic, with Elysians and Death Korps in resin... and it is very rare to see anyone with any of the metal Mordians, Valhallans, Tallarns, Steel Legionnaires or Vostroyans mixed into their army.
The Attillans fit in just fine when you play the army as its meant to be played, as an ad-hoc formation made up of units from several regiments, rather than just going with two - your infantry regiment and your armoured regiment with maybe some navy support.
And it is this I agree with. Perhaps it is because I still use the actual metal Mordian models that I've had for ages I don't understand Kan's aesthetic argument.
As for Rough Riders, I have to think the next codex will either drop them or give them new plastics and updated rules. Like Kan, I think the aesthetic (and concept) don't fit the army in 2015, but more options for people to create unique lists isn't a bad thing, either.
It's not a bad thing at all, and I really do hate to be the "WRONGBADFUN!" guy that I've been here but it really does feel to me like a lot of the "older stuff" that gets kept as holdovers damages the books that exist--not just the IG.
No, I get it. RRs and ratlings are holdovers from the days of Praetorians fighting zulu Orks and Eldar riding dinosaurs. Retro can be cool--see Imperial Knights and some of the new AdMech offerings--but if GW's not going to update the models and rules to reflect a different hobby environment, then they should put them to bed until they can revisit them at some point later on down the road.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'll say it again since I've been ignored, but the only reason the Attillans don't fit the "aesthetic" of the Guard in 2015 is because said aesthetic has been reduced to Cadians and Catachans in plastic, with Elysians and Death Korps in resin... and it is very rare to see anyone with any of the metal Mordians, Valhallans, Tallarns, Steel Legionnaires or Vostroyans mixed into their army.
Right, because those models are prohibitively expensive for anyone trying to make anything other than MechVet lists.
Not to mention they do not have all the special/heavy weapon options available--requiring extensive conversion work in some cases.
The Attillans fit in just fine when you play the army as its meant to be played, as an ad-hoc formation made up of units from several regiments, rather than just going with two - your infantry regiment and your armoured regiment with maybe some navy support.
Mixed companies/regiments are actually a rarity, not the standard...so I'd posit that the people playing "just Cadians" or "just Catachans" are playing their armies just fine.
Formations that replicate some of the old doctrines and special character abilities.
Some point adjustments, naturally, and boosting some of the crappy units that others have mentioned.
Return of cut artillery.
The big stuff:
Orders, orders, everywhere. More orders, more effectively, at greater range, to all types of units. Make orders the key to playing IG.
A new type of squadron for Leman Russes. The only restriction is that they have to maintain unit coherency. In all other respects (shooting, being shot at/attacked in hth, damage) they count as separate units.
Right, because those models are prohibitively expensive for anyone trying to make anything other than MechVet lists.
Not to mention they do not have all the special/heavy weapon options available--requiring extensive conversion work in some cases.
True on the special/heavy weapon front, but not really true on the 'prohibitively expensive' front.
Mixed companies/regiments are actually a rarity, not the standard...so I'd posit that the people playing "just Cadians" or "just Catachans" are playing their armies just fine.
Every Imperial Guard army that has both infantry and tanks, or infantry and artillery, or tanks and artillery, or ogryns, or ratlings, or stormtroopers... is inherently a mixed company, because in the Imperial Guard, tanks are part of their own regiments, etc. So even if someone is playing "just Cadians", they're already fielding normally two, often three, sometimes even four or five different regiments in their company.
Actually on the subject of tanks I have an idea for the Vanquisher
1) Restore it to 155 points
2) Let it fire standard Leman Russ HE ammunition as it did back in 3rd edition, as well as AP shells
3) Give the AP round a +4 or +5 on the damage tables
4) Apply the general mobility fixes to all Leman Russ tanks (IE, re-introducing LB)
Jobs a goodun
As for all this QQ about regiments and formations I do feel obliged to throw this out there:
My IG army is built up from a combination of WW2 British and German units. Currently anyway. I plan eventually to have enough for each side (and with the amazing value of Warlords Games stuff I am not far off) to be fielded as a separate army. So, my army comes from the same general regiment. In the British my Infantry are from the 1st Lancashire Rifles, the Storm Troops are Royal Navy Commandos, the tanks are from the 3rd RTR and the artillery.... I have not got any yet My Germans are likewise composed.
It works and if people want to do it with their space armies then there is no reason why they shouldnt.
Formations that replicate some of the old doctrines and special character abilities.
Some point adjustments, naturally, and boosting some of the crappy units that others have mentioned.
Return of cut artillery.
The big stuff:
Orders, orders, everywhere. More orders, more effectively, at greater range, to all types of units. Make orders the key to playing IG.
A new type of squadron for Leman Russes. The only restriction is that they have to maintain unit coherency. In all other respects (shooting, being shot at/attacked in hth, damage) they count as separate units.
Orders are already uncounterable. They need some drawbacks.
The main issues I see for gard players their best stuff is blast oriented so Invisibility wrecks them and they have no method to counter it without allies. They also are very weak against FMC because of this too. The main tournament armies focus on invis death stars and FMC...sooo gard have just be left in the dust here. They also need some QOL changes to a few units. For example - exempt LR from restrictions of firing ordinance maybe let stubbers fire at fliers at full BS. Something like that.
Right, because those models are prohibitively expensive for anyone trying to make anything other than MechVet lists.
Not to mention they do not have all the special/heavy weapon options available--requiring extensive conversion work in some cases.
True on the special/heavy weapon front, but not really true on the 'prohibitively expensive' front.
Prohibitively expensive is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but there's a reason I would never do a Vostroyan army. $35 per 10 models, mandating a Heavy Bolter and Flamer in the squad.
Mixed companies/regiments are actually a rarity, not the standard...so I'd posit that the people playing "just Cadians" or "just Catachans" are playing their armies just fine.
Every Imperial Guard army that has both infantry and tanks, or infantry and artillery, or tanks and artillery, or ogryns, or ratlings, or stormtroopers... is inherently a mixed company, because in the Imperial Guard, tanks are part of their own regiments, etc. So even if someone is playing "just Cadians", they're already fielding normally two, often three, sometimes even four or five different regiments in their company.
Tanks, while part of their own regiments, are similar to Scions, Ogryns, etc in that they are not commonly fielded as their own "regiment" but as attachments to standard regimental formations.
Kanluwen wrote: I vote we make Leman Russ Superheavy Vehicles.
If a Wraithknight can be a "Gargantuan Monstrous Creature", then by God a Leman Russ can be a Superheavy!
LR's too? I mean they are about twice the size.
How about just give them 4 HP and let them always fire their maingun at full BS kinda like POMS.
The issue isn't the "firing their main gun at full BS" but rather the fact that the weapon is Ordnance. It's the interaction that the main gun has with the sponsons and the like.
Formations that replicate some of the old doctrines and special character abilities.
Some point adjustments, naturally, and boosting some of the crappy units that others have mentioned.
Return of cut artillery.
The big stuff:
Orders, orders, everywhere. More orders, more effectively, at greater range, to all types of units. Make orders the key to playing IG.
A new type of squadron for Leman Russes. The only restriction is that they have to maintain unit coherency. In all other respects (shooting, being shot at/attacked in hth, damage) they count as separate units.
Orders are already uncounterable. They need some drawbacks.
...They already have drawbacks built in? They require the receiving unit to perform a Leadership test, which if failed can lock out Orders for the turn.
The main issues I see for gard players their best stuff is blast oriented so Invisibility wrecks them and they have no method to counter it without allies. They also are very weak against FMC because of this too. The main tournament armies focus on invis death stars and FMC...sooo gard have just be left in the dust here. They also need some QOL changes to a few units. For example - exempt LR from restrictions of firing ordinance maybe let stubbers fire at fliers at full BS. Something like that.
The issues aren't that easy to put forward.
A major issue is that units which are supposed to excel at something(ex: Hydra Flak Tanks and the AA role or the Deathstrike Launcher and...well, everything that needs to die at once) don't really excel at it enough to justify their existence.
You can't get sucked into the warp for casting orders. and they can't be singled out an denied by your opponent. That's all I'm saying.
I agree hydra flaks are weak. Then again almost all dedicated ground to air is bad in this game so it's not a gard exception. I think the basic rules about how we shoot flyers need to change. Deathstrike launcher is MEH. Needs to have a more powerful blast - then again it is cheap and some LOS blocking terrain can mean it's going off automatically. Essentially it's a gimic - I don't like gimics - just remove it or change it's rules to be a 1 time use str 10 ap1 large blast with unlimited range.
Xenomancers wrote: You can't get sucked into the warp for casting orders. and they can't be singled out an denied by your opponent. That's all I'm saying.
I agree hydra flaks are weak. Then again almost all dedicated ground to air is bad in this game so it's not a gard exception. I think the basic rules about how we shoot flyers need to change. Deathstrike launcher is MEH. Needs to have a more powerful blast - then again it is cheap and some LOS blocking terrain can mean it's going off automatically. Essentially it's a gimic - I don't like gimics - just remove it or change it's rules to be a 1 time use str 10 ap1 large blast with unlimited range.
Why would talking on the phone cause your face to melt?
Xenomancers wrote: You can't get sucked into the warp for casting orders. and they can't be singled out an denied by your opponent. That's all I'm saying.
Sure they can--by killing the officers. It's not like a Platoon Command Squad can utilize the really heavy hitting Orders, so taking out a Company Command Squad effectively neuters the army.
And taking out Platoon Command Squads does neuter the army, once the CCS is gone as Sergeants in squads cannot issue Orders.
Couple that with the fact that Orders mandate Officers(and their attendant squads) stay within 12-18 inches of the squads(read: SQUADS--not Platoons) that they affect, it becomes very realistic that you can kill Orders without needing the ability to "Deny the Vox Channels".
I agree hydra flaks are weak. Then again almost all dedicated ground to air is bad in this game so it's not a gard exception. I think the basic rules about how we shoot flyers need to change.
Simply put, AA vehicles suffer from overspecialization. Skyfire is something that some units pay heavily for, while others don't--and the ones which don't pay heavily for it usually have a way to offset the fact that they'll be Snap Shooting against ground targets.
Deathstrike launcher is MEH. Needs to have a more powerful blast - then again it is cheap and some LOS blocking terrain can mean it's going off automatically. Essentially it's a gimmick - I don't like gimmicks - just remove it or change it's rules to be a 1 time use str 10 ap1 large blast with unlimited range.
The Deathstrike Launcher as a "large blast" would be a huge nerf. It uses the Apocalypse Blast template(the "pizza plate") now.
The simple problem with it is that it is rather unreliable for the timeframe when you actually need it(early on in the game, before the enemy gets to scatter). Couple that with the fact that it is a One Use Only weapon, which has an accompanying table you have to roll on to attempt to fire the missile(but you can only do it past turn one!) and it becomes silly to even see it on the field since some armies can be into Assault with a Guard gunline by the start of turn 2 making the Deathstrike effectively useless since you can't drop templates into Assaults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: One point I'd like to make is that Leman Russ tanks really shouldn't be Super Heavy vehicles. Mainly because they're not... you know... super heavy.
But then, perhaps I'm biased because I think Super Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures need to sod off and die.
It was a tongue-in-cheek statement, simply because Superheavies have no snap-fire penalties on the rest of their weaponry for firing Ordnance.
Another thing that we need is a hefty price reduction on Pask. 70 points for a slight buff on the main turret its terrible....
70 points? Yes, I did say that. Not 40, 70.
Why?
Because if you actually look at the RAW Pask's entry specifically states "Upgrade one Tank Commander to Knight Commander Pask.........40" So, in order to get Pask you first need to have a Tank Commander to upgrade to Pask. Tank commanders cost 30 points. So you buy your Tank Commander for 30 points and then upgrade him for another 40 points. 30+40=70.
So, for 70 points IG players gain a minor buff to the turret. Whereas SM players pay 40 points for a BS5 2 wound character whom can bail once the tank is hit and gives said chosen mount a hell of a lot of buffs.
On the subject of IG tanks we need out Leman Russ tanks upgraded too 4HP. Right now they just do not feel heavy enough, and whilst we are on the subject we desperately need to see the ability to fire the main gun separately from the rest of the weapons on the tank.
The Hydra needs to be able to shoot ground targets and ignore Jink saves
The Basilisk needs to have less of a minimal range
The Manticore needs some love
The Deathstrike needs to be taken out and made an Apocalypse unit with the D
Chimeras - Drop the fething price already!
Hellhounds and co - Seriously, who wants to pay that much for a short ranged tank? The few times I have used them they have been destroyed before they can do anything significant to the enemy (and by significant I mean two of them dealing with 1 ten man squad)
It might be fitting to give the Deathstrike Missile "varying range bands" of Strength.
Center is D while the outset is 10.
You talking about the Big pizza plate gw has been trying to hawk at people?
Well yeah, since that's what the Deathstrike fires.
The 10" blast template.
Admittedly, I got mine back when Apocalypse first launched(got ALL of those templates with the backpack) so I still have the pimp as all hell neon green templates
It might be fitting to give the Deathstrike Missile "varying range bands" of Strength.
Center is D while the outset is 10.
You talking about the Big pizza plate gw has been trying to hawk at people?
Well yeah, since that's what the Deathstrike fires.
The 10" blast template.
Admittedly, I got mine back when Apocalypse first launched(got ALL of those templates with the backpack) so I still have the pimp as all hell neon green templates
I though the neon green one is the 7" template aka apoc blast
while the NEW new one is the mega apoc blast that is the blue 10" blast with a 7" and 5" diameter ring.
It might be fitting to give the Deathstrike Missile "varying range bands" of Strength.
Center is D while the outset is 10.
You talking about the Big pizza plate gw has been trying to hawk at people?
Well yeah, since that's what the Deathstrike fires.
The 10" blast template.
Admittedly, I got mine back when Apocalypse first launched(got ALL of those templates with the backpack) so I still have the pimp as all hell neon green templates
I though the neon green one is the 7" template aka apoc blast
while the NEW new one is the mega apoc blast that is the blue 10" blast with a 7" and 5" diameter ring.
Negative. The one that came with the Apocalypse launch way back when is 10", with 3", 5", 7" markers counting to the outer ring.
The thing I got came with the Apocalyptic Hellstorm, Barrage, and Blast templates.
1. Since the deathstritke is the hot topic. Strength D with 7 inch template. Keep it with ordanance rules. I do like the idea of the pick a spot and count down. Also, where ever the template lands, it is inpassible terrain. I have seen what modern artillery does, I couldn't imagine what a ICBM impact site would look like.
2. Rough riders: New models. I think on scaled down bikes would be great.
3. Regiment tactics. Right now it is you play AM with Cadian, Catachan, or some other regiment models.
4. Bring back Marbo
5. Make sentinels an upgrade to command squads as well as thier own FA entry.
Melissia wrote: I find htis idea of the deathstrike amusing.
Also give it D-strength.
The S(D) is way more important than the countdown.
Also, if it's going to be one-shot for 200+ points (because you know GW is going to bump the points to LR cost), I'm expecting that S(D) blast to be 10" diameter.
____
BTW, the countdown is a bad idea. Instead, do this:
Fire the missile and place a target marker anywhere on the board (Barrage, baby).
At the start of the OPPONENT's shooting phase, resolve the hit with a regular scatter.
Melissia wrote: I find htis idea of the deathstrike amusing.
Also give it D-strength.
The S(D) is way more important than the countdown.
Also, if it's going to be one-shot for 200+ points (because you know GW is going to bump the points to LR cost), I'm expecting that S(D) blast to be 10" diameter.
____
BTW, the countdown is a bad idea. Instead, do this:
Fire the missile and place a target marker anywhere on the board (Barrage, baby).
At the start of the OPPONENT's shooting phase, resolve the hit with a regular scatter.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The main thing is that it auto-destroys buildings. So the shenanigains with high BS-characters manning emplaced AA guns kind of goes away.
That needs to go away in any case.
Just because you're a character with a pimpin' Ballistic Skill doesn't mean you know diddly about operating anti-aircraft weaponry.
Kanluwen wrote:
Tanks, while part of their own regiments, are similar to Scions, Ogryns, etc in that they are not commonly fielded as their own "regiment" but as attachments to standard regimental formations.
So essentially, your counter-argument is "it doesn't count as mixing regiments because its standard practice to mix regiments"?
Kanluwen wrote:
Tanks, while part of their own regiments, are similar to Scions, Ogryns, etc in that they are not commonly fielded as their own "regiment" but as attachments to standard regimental formations.
So essentially, your counter-argument is "it doesn't count as mixing regiments because its standard practice to mix regiments"?
You understand, first of all, that what you're seeing on the tabletop is not a REGIMENT, right?
It's a COMPANY.
To give an example:
Cadian 9823rd Regiment would be broken down into a number of Companies.
This could include an Armored Company(10th "Facepunchers"), a Sentinel Company(the 5th "Chickenstriders"), and the remainder as Infantry Companies.
The 9823rd Regiment would then have assets which are detached to them from the Militarum Auxilia(Abhumans such as Ogryn and Ratlings), Officio Prefectus(Commissars), and Militarum Tempestus(Scions).
Let's say you have the 82nd Ogryn Auxilia("Boneheads") and Scions from the 5534th("Tin Boys"). They would be folded into the 9823rd Regiment for the duration of the campaign.
With that bit laid down, you also have to understand that most players aren't interested in doing a "mixed aesthetic" army and that "Remnant Companies/Regiments"(such as a mixed Cadian/Catachan Company/Regiment) are listed as a background piece to open those options up if players want them. Mixed companies/regiments are, again, rare--excepting the fact that they can get created during warzones when an officer high enough up the command line decides it's necessary rather than letting a company/regiment which suffered horrendous casualties operate at reduced strength.
You do realise that every argument you put forward actually supports the idea that armies on the table are made up of units from different regiments, right?
All I know is that my IG Regiment has a Forge Moon that supplies its Companies with whatever equipment desired, and that my Regiment practices combined arms to make the most of it.
To expand on Miko's post the IG does not do combined arms regiments. The Departmento Munitorum organizes the assets of the Guard into mostly homogenous regiments of roughy the same fighting effectiveness. An armored regiment will rarely have infantry assets and conversely a Rifles regiment will not have any basilisks. This is to ensure that any treasonous regiments won't have all the assets they need to fight a war.
Furyou Miko wrote:That's not how its organised. It would be the 9823rd Regiment's X Company working with an attached Armour Platoon from the 8293rd Armoured Regiment.
TheCustomLime wrote:To expand on Miko's post the IG does not do combined arms regiments. The Departmento Munitorum organizes the assets of the Guard into mostly homogenous regiments of roughy the same fighting effectiveness. An armored regiment will rarely have infantry assets and conversely a Rifles regiment will not have any basilisks. This is to ensure that any treasonous regiments won't have all the assets they need to fight a war.
Except for the part where there are in the fluff several Regiments which feature combine arms, being Cadian, Armageddon, Mordian regiments.
They may be from the same home world and they may be supporting one another but the different elements of the army is most definitely from separate regiments.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Departmento Munitorum organizes the assets of the Guard into mostly homogenous regiments of roughy the same fighting effectiveness. An armored regiment will rarely have infantry assets and conversely a Rifles regiment will not have any basilisks. This is to ensure that any treasonous regiments won't have all the assets they need to fight a war.
Have you ever read the Fluff? The Novels? Codex: Armageddon? Codex: Catachans? How about simply looking at the various things that GW has pictures of.
The famous IG regiments have armor and infantry. Cadia, apparently has everything in the Codex, bar abhumans (and it may well have all of those, too).
I think you are confusing armies with regiments. An army can consist of infantry, tanks and artillery but not an individual regiment. Typically armored regiments are broken up and assigned to infantry regiments as temporary reinforcements. Often the armored and infantry elements share a similar color scheme for various reasons such as environment, being from the same home world of origin or the armored elements adopted the colors of the infantry they are attached to for whatever reason. This can happen too with elements that aren't even part of the Guard such as Valkyries.
Page 103 ish of IA4 Second edition has attached Taros squadrons, tarantula sentry guns, Sentinels, and cyclops demolitions. The d-99 are not just made up of infantry.
The only separation between forces are aircraft which are given to the navy. Imo aircraft restricted to planetary use should also be given to the guard as it would inevitably be restricted to operations on a single planet and open to attack from orbiting fleets.
The vraks book part one has a list of an infantry COMPANY and an artillery COMPANY both of which have centaurs and the artillery COMPANY having trojans, and atlus. So no, regiments are not just one thing, they also include supporting elements that allow them to actually carry out their intended role.
I think the whole "regiment" thing is another issue of GW not having much of an idea of what they were talking about in the first place, and other authors either not knowing the original fluff, or choosing to discard it.
It also doesn't help that GW uses the term "Regiment" to simultaneously mean "different world's levies" (e.g. Cadian vs Catachan), as well as actual elements of battle, variously referred to in sized from 2,000 to over 100,,000 strong, sometimes it refers to something of a modern day regiment or battalion in terms of size, other times it's corps or army sized, etc.
There is very definitely solid statements from GW that the IG does not use combined arms regiments and that such are assembled from various different regiments. There is also very definite fluff from GW portraying actual combined arms regiments.
The thing is, GW Codices should be assumed to be Canon-1, so if they show Cadia with Infantry, Mech Inf, Armor, Heavy Armor, and Artillery - that is combined arms for the army / plantary "Cadian Shock Troops Regiment", which includes military organizational "regiments" of variable size and composition.
As the DM is administrative, I assume they say things but actually have their heads up their gakholes, like pretty much any purely administrative organization that isn't actually down in the gak getting their hands and boots dirty.
Also, by the Fluff, with Cadia being so close to the Cadian Gate, Daemons being real, etc. it's unclear how Cadia isn't the poster child for separation. As it is, if Cadia's forces were to turn to Chaos, the Imperium would never retake it.
The problem with using fluff as part of your argument, is that the company who writes it is often willfully ignorant of their own fluff or retcons it to serve their purpose of selling more models. Also, the galaxy is a big place, allowing for all kinds of exceptions to the rule.
Although, I think we can all agree that MLP and Hello Kitty Marines are heresy, so there's something we can all have in common
Sledgehammer wrote:Page 103 ish of IA4 Second edition has attached Taros squadrons, tarantula sentry guns, Sentinels, and cyclops demolitions. The d-99 are not just made up of infantry.
Elysian regiments specifically are noted to be made up of airborne infantry, some of whom are trained to use Tauros Scout Vehicles and Drop Sentinel support walkers. D-99 is a bad example anyway - its a special formation. You want to look at IA8's information for an image of how a standard Elysian force is organised. IA3 has them operating as part of a larger force, so it follows the usual organisation of mixed regiments.
The vraks book part one has a list of an infantry COMPANY and an artillery COMPANY both of which have centaurs and the artillery COMPANY having trojans, and atlus. So no, regiments are not just one thing, they also include supporting elements that allow them to actually carry out their intended role.
But neither of them have tanks. The Centaur is an IFV like the Chimera, which is often part of a infantry company. As for the Trojans and ARVs, of course they're part of the artillery company - they're artillery tractors! They are not, however, tanks or infantry formations.
The Imperial Guard was divided after the Horus Heresy to ensure that no one regiment turning would pose a threat. A good example of this is in the Gaunt's Ghosts series when the Tanith 1st, an infantry only regiment, is combined with the Pardus 8th armoured regiment, a tank regiment, to achieve an objective. While there may be exceptions in the wide galaxy, this is supposed to be the most common arrangement.
the_Armyman wrote: Although, I think we can all agree that MLP and Hello Kitty Marines are heresy, so there's something we can all have in common
You just opened a whole new can of worms.
I the grimdark of the far future, there is only Hello Kitty.
One thing I thought would be cool is if Vox caster actually act like radios. So a Commander could issue orders to units outside of his range if they both had vox casters. That would make complete sense and would be really thematic.
Gamerely wrote: One thing I thought would be cool is if Vox caster actually act like radios. So a Commander could issue orders to units outside of his range if they both had vox casters. That would make complete sense and would be really thematic.
the Signless wrote: The Imperial Guard was divided after the Horus Heresy to ensure that no one regiment turning would pose a threat. A good example of this is in the Gaunt's Ghosts series when the Tanith 1st, an infantry only regiment, is combined with the Pardus 8th armoured regiment, a tank regiment, to achieve an objective. While there may be exceptions in the wide galaxy, this is supposed to be the most common arrangement.
the_Armyman wrote: Although, I think we can all agree that MLP and Hello Kitty Marines are heresy, so there's something we can all have in common
You just opened a whole new can of worms.
I the grimdark of the far future, there is only Hello Kitty.
The Imperial Army was divided into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy. This division makes it impossible for a single army commander to conduct a ground war and get to his destination as he has no ships of his own. He must rely on the navy to go anywhere, just as the navy must rely on the guard to defend planetary assets.
That division does not carry over into individual guard regiments, except for restrictions on aircraft which are under the jurisdiction of the Navy.
Regiments are not restricted from having any ground assets, and are only restricted from obtaining navy assets. In other words, regiments can mix and max units.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The thing is, GW Codices should be assumed to be Canon-1, so if they show Cadia with Infantry, Mech Inf, Armor, Heavy Armor, and Artillery - that is combined arms for the army / plantary "Cadian Shock Troops Regiment", which includes military organizational "regiments" of variable size and composition.
But you're confusing "regiment" with "a planet's entire military production". Cadia produces infantry regiments, tank regiments, etc, but they aren't necessarily combined into mixed formations.
The Imperial Munitorum Manual, the bureaucratic equivalent of the Uplifting Primer. It is in the section which is a case study of the Cadian 91st regiment. The 91st is an infantry regiment consisting of ten companies of around three hundred and fifty men each. It doesn't really mention attached armour, other than supply vehicles and a large number of chimeras.
Another interesting case study would be the 19th Konig Armoured Regiment from the Icaedus campaign, shown in IA1:2E.
Spoiler:
It shows the structure of an armoured regiment. Of particular note are that it only has 865 lasguns, showing how few infantry it actually has available when compared to the over 5000 personnel in the Cadian 91st (described as a small regiment). It also shows how a regiment can be an amalgamation of several compaines.
Of course, in 40k pretty much anything goes. Whilst having separate infantry and tank regiments is the norm, the rare exceptions crop up at an increased rate. Things like airborne regiments are very rare, as are regiments working under inquisitors or marines.
The Imperial Munitorum Manual, the bureaucratic equivalent of the Uplifting Primer. It is in the section which is a case study of the Cadian 91st regiment. The 91st is an infantry regiment consisting of ten companies of around three hundred and fifty men each. It doesn't really mention attached armour, other than supply vehicles and a large number of chimeras.
Another interesting case study would be the 19th Konig Armoured Regiment from the Icaedus campaign, shown in IA1:2E.
[spoiler]
It shows the structure of an armoured regiment. Of particular note are that it only has 865 lasguns, showing how few infantry it actually has available when compared to the over 5000 personnel in the Cadian 91st (described as a small regiment). It also shows how a regiment can be an amalgamation of several compaines.
Of course, in 40k pretty much anything goes. Whilst having separate infantry and tank regiments is the norm, the rare exceptions crop up at an increased rate. Things like airborne regiments are very rare, as are regiments working under inquisitors or marines.[/spoiler]
Thanks for that. My own regiment is in the middle of a restructuring.
I used to have a very old codex (not sure what edition) that required IG players to choose doctrines. Now, at the time I disliked that I had to 'unlock' special units with my 5 points, such as stormtroopers, but there were a lot of fluff doctrines that actually added to the feeling of your own unique force.
The examples I can recall were:
Close order drill -> recommended for Mordian armies
+1WS in close combat, but only if all models in squad are in base to base contact.
Light infantry ->
+1 cover saves (across all infantry), no tanks allowed.
I would really like to see a big compendium of these to mix and match special doctrines to fit a customised army!
Based on the return of SM Traits, IG Doctrines are a given. I think you look to the SM Codex for examples of how they might do things. I suspect there would be a Light Infantry Company that could work alongside a Heavy Tank Platoon, or even Superheavies - just because the troopers are Light infantry, doesn't mean they won't be stationed with heavy armor.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Based on the return of SM Traits, IG Doctrines are a given. I think you look to the SM Codex for examples of how they might do things. I suspect there would be a Light Infantry Company that could work alongside a Heavy Tank Platoon, or even Superheavies - just because the troopers are Light infantry, doesn't mean they won't be stationed with heavy armor.
More importantly, GW wants to sell Tanks.
From wikipedia "Contemporary light infantry forces
Today the term "light" denotes, in the United States table of organization and equipment, units lacking heavy weapons and armor or with a reduced vehicle footprint. Light infantry units lack the greater firepower, operational mobility and protection of mechanized or armored units, but possess greater tactical mobility and the ability to execute missions in severely restrictive terrain and in areas where weather makes vehicular mobility difficult."
My guys only use buggies (taros), long rang artillery support, air support, and sentinels for their "big" firepower. Tanks and other large vehicles (essentially everything in the IG) go against the light infantry doctrine. Right now my guys suffer a lot from my self imposed handicap with no benefit. Even then, I already give all my guys camo cloaks.
Armageddon Steel Legions: >Mechanized Assault (All Transports become Fast)
>Hatred (Orks)
Cadian Shock Troops: >Las-Gun Drill (May Re-Roll To-Hit Rolls of 1 when shooting with Las-Guns)
>Hardened Fighters (Stubborn)
Catachan Jungle Fighters: >Jungle Fighters (Gain +1 to Cover Saves in Jungle or Woods)
>Knife Fighters (Can Replace Las-Gun for Las Pistol for Free)
Elysian Drop Troops: >Grav-Chute Insertion (Units with out Transports may Deep Strike)
>Air-Mobile (Valkyries can be taken as Dedicated Transports)
Mordian Iron Guard: >Rank and File (If all Models of a unit are in base contact with each other they may fire Over-watch at full BS)
>Formation March ( If all Models of a unit are in base contact with each other they may Fire one extra shot with Non-Heavy Weapons)
Tallarn Desert Raider: >Raiders (Scout Rule)
>Hit and Run (Hit and Run Rule)
Tanith First an Only: >Stealthy (Stealth)
>Infiltrators (Infiltrate)
The Death Korps of Krieg: >Hard World (FNP 6+)
>No Fear of Death (Immunity to Fear)
Valhallan Ice Warriors: >Aggressive Fighters (Moral at 50%)
>Bring the Fight to them (May Run and Shoot or Shoot and Run)
Vostroyan First Born: >Dept to be Repaid (Can always attempt to Regroup)
>Wealthy Family (Each Character gets a Free Mastercraft Weapon)
Besides Unit Points Adjustments: Rough Riders (Make T4, Make Lances I+2, Option to replace Lance with second Las-Pistol or Las-Gun)
Add Rough Rider Command Squad (5 Models + optional Commissar, but No Heavy Weapons)
Add Rough Rider Veterans (Same Options as Veteran Squad, but No Heavy Weapons)
