http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/06/09/rumor-it-tired-reading-german-space-marine-rules/


So here is the link to theleaked SM codex.


The stupidity that has immediately caught my eye is the Battle-Demi Companies taken as a Gladius.

Every unit in it will gain obsec, gets their transports for free, and cam use the old UM tactics on top of the chapter tactics your using.

Here's a demo list I made:

1st Battle Company
Captain upgraded to Chapter Master with bike, artificer armor, relic blade, and shield eternal- 225pts

Command Squad with Bikes
Narthecium
+2x storm shield and grav gun
Drop Pod

220pts


#1 5 man with grav gun and razorback with heavy bolter
85pts

#2 5 man with grav gun and razorback-heavy bolter
80pts

#3 5 man with Flamer and razorback heavy bolter
75pts


Bike Squad:
3 Bikers with 2 melta guns
83pts

1 Devastator Squad
5x Devastators 4x grav cannon with amp
Drop Pod
210pts


2nd Battle Company

Chaplain on bike- 110pts

Command Squad with Narthecium 2x storm shields, 2x power mauls 1x power fist 1 melta bomb
Razorback with heavy bolter
225pts.

3
#1 5 man with grav gun and razorback heavy flamer
85pts

#2 5 man with melta gun and razorback heavy flamer
80pts

#3 5 man with Flamer and razorback heavy flamer
75pts

Bike Squad:
3 Bikers with 2 melta guns
83pts

1 Devastator Squad
5x Devastators 4x grav cannon with amp
Drop Pod
210pts
Can this be beat? I feel like this WAY too overpowered for even Decurion or Eldar wraiths to take on.

You'll need an Auxiliary choice for those transports to become free, so there's that.

It's a strong army, but I'm not super concerned about facing it.

We'll just have to wait and see. I'm not skeered. It still rankles me far less than the Eldar Codex.

Plus it's booooooring. You can't take any of the cool SM support squads and the Gladius has no non-formation auxilliaries.

Also, the gladius requires an auxilliary choice (I think). Where is yours? (Edit: Ninja'd by Thud!)

Once you pop those razorbacks (not that hard a job), its a bunch of t4 3+ TAC marines running around with average weaponry.
Hardly meta breaking tbh.

Sure the grav devs are nasty but they're an alpha strike unit, once they land and get a round off they'll be nuked.

I can see one weakness in this list already (besides it not being legal):

Our enemies hide in METAL BOXES! The cowards! The fools! We should take away their metal boxes...

It also has no AA and MSU bikers arent particularly scary built as they are above.

This is true, but most of Auxiliaries are cheap enough you could
Put one in without majorly changing the costs. Still seems broken to me even if there is 'tax'.

I'm excited about this new codex. That list you made seems strong yeah, but it's varied enough to not seem like super cheese. That looks like a well-rounded list, unlike an eldar list that consists of 25 jetbikes and 2 wraithknights.

Plus they made a lot of the special characters playable again.

So i think this codex was a nice upgrade, and I for one am probably going to buy in to it.

still for a bigger game the idea of free transports...Nice. Im to lazy to read the article so a quick question would be can you field terminators somehow and give them a Land raider for free?

Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Dont get me wrong, its a decent list but its not OP nor meta breaking imo.

You need to take 2 demi companies (a full battle company) to get the free transports.

Edit: Oh never mind, my mistake

Edit: How many points is the OP's list? and how does it deal with flyers?

You're trading actual strength for MSU Objectives. Yes, you'll win against Knights, and prolly Pentyrants, but you won't win against #Lictorshame or the Scout list that does the same thing but is more balanced about it. MSU Obj Sec is an old idea and frankly, this just redoes it.

At best, it shifts the meta to killing MSU again. But the meta has already been doing that with the amount of S6 spam we've been seeing.

lustigjh wrote:Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Oh yes it is.

And everything in those core formations is Objective Secured, so any purchased dedicated transports (including drop pods) are also objective secured. MWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

SharkoutofWata wrote:You're trading actual strength for MSU Objectives. Yes, you'll win against Knights, and prolly Pentyrants, but you won't win against #Lictorshame or the Scout list that does the same thing but is more balanced about it. MSU Obj Sec is an old idea and frankly, this just redoes it.

At best, it shifts the meta to killing MSU again. But the meta has already been doing that with the amount of S6 spam we've been seeing.

Quoted for truth. The game meta has been shifting toward MSU objective grabbers. It would hold up well against deathstars, but other MSU lists are another story.

Look at this way:

For 200 points you can field ten 11/11/10 3HP tanks with TL AssCannons, TL LC, or Lascannon+TL plasma gun...

Sure, the units you take to get the free transports aren't the best in the book, but don't act like the amount of fire power this can put out isn't enough to table most armies in its own right. You're looking at base 50 MEQ bodies with weapons and 10 razorbacks w/ weapon upgrades for around 1500 pts. So this won't really work well until 1850+, which is popular, and leaves ~350 pts for the auxiliary formation that will add even more table presence and fire power.

jSewell wrote:
Look at this way:

For 200 points you can field ten 11/11/10 3HP tanks with TL AssCannons, TL LC, or Lascannon+TL plasma gun...

Sure, the units you take to get the free transports aren't the best in the book, but don't act like the amount of fire power this can put out isn't enough to table most armies in its own right. You're looking at base 50 MEQ bodies with weapons and 10 razorbacks w/ weapon upgrades for around 1500 pts. So this won't really work well until 1850+, which is popular, and leaves ~350 pts for the auxiliary formation that will add even more table presence and fire power.

GW realised that people that spam one of something is their best customer. He probably wants to spam 3 other things too, so he has a monstrous amount of models just to be able to do his spam. So now they incentivice all sorts of spamming.

"try 50 MEQ! It's just 10 boxes of MEQ and 10 boxes of rhino chassis!"

Ok so I am reading the leaked codex pages... Where does it say they get Free razorbacks?

 Xerics wrote:
Ok so I am reading the leaked codex pages... Where does it say they get Free razorbacks?

Try the formations.

Yeah I found it. But it takes 2 of those formations. So you pretty much have NO heavy support. I would welcome a bunch of squishy marines and their squishy razorbacks against my scatterspam with 4 wraithknights. The only thing that would even stand a chance would be the devastators. Everything else would be hard pressed to kill just 1 wraithknight let alone 4.

Disclaimer: Present cheese I will counter with cheese.

 Xerics wrote:
Ok so I am reading the leaked codex pages... Where does it say they get Free razorbacks?

I had to work to find it too. In the section for the Gladius Strike Force, one of the Command Benefits is Company Support. There ya go.

Ninja'd by yourself.

Also in this list that is posted above where are the 2 Auxiliary formations that are required? Each full detachment must have 1 core and 1 auxiliary minimum.

You also need at least 1 auxiliary choice to make it a legal Gladius Strike Force. Both Demi-Companies are core, not auxiliary.

You only get the free transports if it's a Gladius Strike Force, not just for having 2 demi-companies.

2 Auxiliary. 1 per each core choice is required. pretty much first sentence in the Restrictions section right above the command benefits section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NVM read it wrong. Still need 1 Auxiliary tho.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
still for a bigger game the idea of free transports...Nice. Im to lazy to read the article so a quick question would be can you field terminators somehow and give them a Land raider for free?

Um... No. It specifically say ld razorbacks, rhinos, or drop pods.

More transports? Yay... Not like KDK already had a problem with those...

Great, now razorbacks and rhinos are going to be even harder to get on Ebay :(
I'm still trying to increase my armies tank count beyond the 1 it has...

I think the cheapest is the suppression force at 105? I didn't scroll down and check all the formation restrictions or the exact points.

Barring that, the 10th company task force is a minimum of 163 (for 3 units of scout bikers, no upgrades).

Yeah I agree, this formation isnt nearly as strong as the formation that gives all the pie-plate tanks and a techmarine with an extra +1 to repair them with.

Also the unit of 3 TFCs with an extra +1 to BS. 3 thunderfire cannons at BS6? are you kidding me?! all that for 300 points. Now that's a heavy support slot if you ask me.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
More transports? Yay... Not like KDK already had a problem with those...

As a Chaos player, you have to resign yourself to the fact that we will never, ever get anything close to the level of Loyalist scum, because we wouldn't want Little Timmy to be discouraged that he can't just blink at the big, bad, evil-doers and be unable to effortlessly wipe us from the table...

Besides, free Razorbacks will be the Marine players being kind... Drop Pods are where the true power always has, and always will lie.

The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Thanks!

I'd say 165 is not chump change and if you take three squads of barebones scouts, they aren't adding a lot to the army. There is a heavy price in focus, flexibility and fun factor in order to get those free razorbacks/drop pods.

You could take that list: Drop the bike on the chaplain and the command squad replace it with the the formation that is a razorback, command squad and chaplain. Then adjust the points.

No where near as powerful though.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You could take that list: Drop the bike on the chaplain and the command squad replace it with the the formation that is a razorback, command squad and chaplain. Then adjust the points.

No where near as powerful though.

Nope. That formation is not an auxilliary choice, it's a command choice.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

lustigjh wrote:Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Oh yes it is.

And everything in those core formations is Objective Secured, so any purchased dedicated transports (including drop pods) are also objective secured. MWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ugh. As if drop pods weren't cheesy enough as is. This game is becoming so much fuuuuuuuun. ZZZZZZZZZZ.

I better start writing a Ghostbusters list consisting of MSU deep strike Plaguebearers to clean up ghost pods dropped on objectives like shiny metal turds or else find a new hobby.

lustigjh wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

lustigjh wrote:Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Oh yes it is.

And everything in those core formations is Objective Secured, so any purchased dedicated transports (including drop pods) are also objective secured. MWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ugh. As if drop pods weren't cheesy enough as is. This game is becoming so much fuuuuuuuun. ZZZZZZZZZZ.

I better start writing a Ghostbusters list consisting of MSU deep strike Plaguebearers to clean up ghost pods dropped on objectives like shiny metal turds or else find a new hobby.

It's not like METAL BOXES and soda cans are hard to kill...and that idea of yours is probably a good counter to it. Also, drop pods aren't OP, just saying.

The free transports thing is neat but it's hardly game-breaking. These are Rhinos and Razorbacks we're talking about, not Wave Serpents or Ghost Arks. Drop Pods, of course, remain strong... but if you put your whole army in pods instead of tanks then you're gonna get mulched by volume of fire from basically anything, especially if you haven't filled out your squads (which is not required by the formation).

Also it's kinda really boring. Snoozeville if you ask me. I'd take a demi-company formation if I could use scouts in an LSS instead of all those friggin MEQ bodies.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You could take that list: Drop the bike on the chaplain and the command squad replace it with the the formation that is a razorback, command squad and chaplain. Then adjust the points.

No where near as powerful though.

Nope. That formation is not an auxilliary choice, it's a command choice.

Where does it say that? I'm new to this decurion type formation thing.

There's a pair of pages that list the formations and options available to a Decurion and each has a symbol. Auxiliary, Core, Command.

This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

 General Kroll wrote:
This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

From the link provided I can say that there are some buffs in terms of mobility. I mean you can really hit hard with bikes and stuff but it's not much at all.
On a side note I prefer not to comment till the official release.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
There's a pair of pages that list the formations and options available to a Decurion and each has a symbol. Auxiliary, Core, Command.

I think you mean these.

I'm pretty sure we're allowed to post leaks.
Remove them if they're not, mod. And apologies if that's the case.

But I see them posted every time.. so I'm guessing it's fine.

That's what I mean, yep. They're like the Troops, Heavy Support, HQ etc symbols in the normal lists.

I am not particularly worried, somehow I don't think I am going to encounter many people at my FLGS who are prepared to spend £250 on razorbacks alone.
Although I understand the effect this could have on tournaments, this wont effect 90% of players significantly.

If you use ghost drop pods to capture objectives, I will immediately deduce that you are a total melt.

Everyone talking about how easy DP's and metal boxes are to kill seem to be failing to appreciate that there's like 12 of them in an 1850 list. Sure, you could reliably kill four or five per turn with an extremely optimized, tourny-level list, but at that rate it'd take you three or four turns to clean them all up and you still have the 12+ ObSec marines themselves to take care of. There's only a maximum of 7 turns in a game, gentlemen.

I wouldn't say the new marines are overpowered, but they're going to be tough to beat on maelstrom for a lot of armies.

 General Kroll wrote:
This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

Both can be true. They're not mutually exclusive.
The book can be just the same thing including same art and fluff, just with power levels adjusted in poor ways.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

Both can be true. They're not mutually exclusive.
The book can be just the same thing including same art and fluff, just with power levels adjusted in poor ways.

You're right. But before, people whine about it being nothing substantial and just a money grab. You don't see that anymore -- the whine is now that the codex is too powerful. Of course, if it weren't you'd have people whining that it's not competitive. Even if it were.

I would argue that both are hyperbole, and the truth lies in the eye of the beholder. If you like your romans in plate mail with bolt guns and power weapons, and enjoy the game, you'll probably like C:SM. Otherwise, buying it is ill-advised -- unless you just want it for competitive or completeness reasons.

Its not like the additions/changes to the book are worth the price tag.

The rules changes alone could have been accomplished by a FAQ and a few pages of formations.

I also doubt the fluff or art got any sort of change/upgrade/addition worth even $5. If the Ad Mech books are anything to go by, the colour scheme guide section is likely a bad joke.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its not like the additions/changes to the book are worth the price tag.

The rules changes alone could have been accomplished by a FAQ and a few pages of formations.

I also doubt the fluff or art got any sort of change/upgrade/addition worth even $5. If the Ad Mech books are anything to go by, the colour scheme guide section is likely a bad joke.

This. 100%

We are being charged a premium for no real substance and minimal balance and quality control within a rapid turn around and release cycle.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its not like the additions/changes to the book are worth the price tag.

The rules changes alone could have been accomplished by a FAQ and a few pages of formations.

I also doubt the fluff or art got any sort of change/upgrade/addition worth even $5. If the Ad Mech books are anything to go by, the colour scheme guide section is likely a bad joke.

I disagree. The formations, stat changes, points changes, and updated special rules. If the amount of lore and art is anything like the Eldar codex, I would see no reason to complain.

I think the company formation will be tough to beat, especially if razorback upgrades are free. 10 TL assault cannons, sheesh. But every other formations kinda "meh". I seriously doubt theres a serious theat from a SM army without formations. An army with just the new tweaks & squadron buffs would get shot off the board & blown out the lgs door.

The formations look good but none of them really appeal to me. I'm a little bummed out. I hope that FW releases some formations or something. I hate that there's only one "core" choice for the Gladius.

Space Marine players complain about the lack of variety in their codex while being given the options to fields infantry mobs, vehicle squadrons, drop pod armies, and biker armies along with a collection of formations.

I'm sitting here with an Ork codex that has 100 fewer pages, removes huge chunks of fluff to be replaced by nothing, costs almost the same as the SM codex, has a single formation, and took away a lot of the variety of the previous codex.

I don't see any reason to complain why your codex is underpowered.

I am interested in seeing how these changes to the SM codex will affect small point and large point games. I see vehicle squadrons as a pathway to almost IG levels of tank spam.

There's only a single broken formation, which requires one to fork out money to buy 10 tanks, and EVEN then, eldar is still by far, much stronger.

Other than that, this codex is same old, same old. I don't see any change in the meta.

Pfft, I'll just take the Ork formation with the free transports and laugh.

Oh, we don't get free transports? Well who needs that weak gak, I'll just take the Ork special detachment and kick your ass with an extra Elites slot and hammer of wrath on Ork boyz if they roll a 10 to charge...

Yeah this is pretty stupid.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Pfft, I'll just take the Ork formation with the free transports and laugh.

Oh, we don't get free transports? Well who needs that weak gak, I'll just take the Ork special detachment and kick your ass with an extra Elites slot and hammer of wrath on Ork boyz if they roll a 10 to charge...

Yeah this is pretty stupid.

Ork pride

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/8/26/263430-Army,%20Freehand,%20Orcs,%20Warhammer%20Fantasy.jpg

 j31c3n wrote:
The free transports thing is neat but it's hardly game-breaking. These are Rhinos and Razorbacks we're talking about, not Wave Serpents or Ghost Arks. Drop Pods, of course, remain strong... but if you put your whole army in pods instead of tanks then you're gonna get mulched by volume of fire from basically anything, especially if you haven't filled out your squads (which is not required by the formation).

Also it's kinda really boring. Snoozeville if you ask me. I'd take a demi-company formation if I could use scouts in an LSS instead of all those friggin MEQ bodies.

Boring maybe, but weak and unconcerning, not hardly. No reason to upgrade any of the razorbacks. 10 TL heavy bolters is 30 shots, 25 hits, and wounds most things on a 2 or 3 plus. Any army with exposed 4+ save is going to hate that. Parking them on objectives, why the hell not, they all have objective secured. Massed tankshocking is also an option for those who love to run straight at the enemy. Even LD 10 fails every so often, let alone 9 or 8.

The marine player is basically getting 2000 points in a 1500 point game. I dont care if they are just AV11 and the guys are only T4/ 3+ save guys. The game is only 7 turns at most and the other guy can only kill so many things a turn. Play the mission and concentrate on what VPs you can get and enjoy the wins.

Over in the News/Rumor thread that's up to like 100 pages, you can get a wide range of reaction from folks, especially Marine players, about the new codex.

So far, it seems to have garnered a pretty positive reaction. Lots of excited Marine players. That's good for Marine players.

Some Marine players will 'play it down', not wanting people to look at the codex with the same squinty-eyed glare that many people give the Eldar or Necro codex books. In this thread, and others, there will be those who will try to claim that the codex really isn't any 'big deal'.

I don't play marines, and I am reserving my own judgment until I've had a chance to face off against them a bunch of times - but my initial reaction to -any- formation that gives out 'free stuff' is pretty negative. Things cost points for a reason. Giving players opportunities to get 'free stuff', gives them an advantage before models are even placed on the table. 200-300 points of free transports is still 200-300 points of free stuff. The fact that it's all obsec doesn't bother me so much as the fact that it's -free- does.

I have already seen some players go on about how it 'doesn't really matter'... which is ludicrous. It -does- matter, or why would points values be assigned at all?

Even in the Eldar codex, the Guardian Battlehost can get 3 weapons platforms for free (possible 90 points total). I don't use them, myself, out of principle. Giving 'free points' to any appreciable degree is just lazy game design.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
The free transports thing is neat but it's hardly game-breaking. These are Rhinos and Razorbacks we're talking about, not Wave Serpents or Ghost Arks. Drop Pods, of course, remain strong... but if you put your whole army in pods instead of tanks then you're gonna get mulched by volume of fire from basically anything, especially if you haven't filled out your squads (which is not required by the formation).

Also it's kinda really boring. Snoozeville if you ask me. I'd take a demi-company formation if I could use scouts in an LSS instead of all those friggin MEQ bodies.

Boring maybe, but weak and unconcerning, not hardly. No reason to upgrade any of the razorbacks. 10 TL heavy bolters is 30 shots, 25 hits, and wounds most things on a 2 or 3 plus. Any army with exposed 4+ save is going to hate that. Parking them on objectives, why the hell not, they all have objective secured. Massed tankshocking is also an option for those who love to run straight at the enemy. Even LD 10 fails every so often, let alone 9 or 8.

The marine player is basically getting 2000 points in a 1500 point game. I dont care if they are just AV11 and the guys are only T4/ 3+ save guys. The game is only 7 turns at most and the other guy can only kill so many things a turn. Play the mission and concentrate on what VPs you can get and enjoy the wins.

Sure, you can try this, but you need to take what many marine players consider sub-optimal or terrible units to do it. You can forgo upgrading the METAL BOXES, but then you run into a brick wall at AV12, when you yourself are only AV11/11/10.

Sure you can park on objectives, but anyone with half a brain will simply spread all the objectives out so that the marine player has to move around, which is the other problem with this army build.

Sure, it has mobility, but no maneuverability. 10 Rhino chassis creates a massive parking lot that will struggle over terrain and get in each others' way constantly. There is more than enough S6 and 7 firepower in the game to murder plenty of METAL BOXES a turn. After that, the list is totally spent.

 the Signless wrote:
Space Marine players complain about the lack of variety in their codex while being given the options to fields infantry mobs, vehicle squadrons, drop pod armies, and biker armies along with a collection of formations.

I'm sitting here with an Ork codex that has 100 fewer pages, removes huge chunks of fluff to be replaced by nothing, costs almost the same as the SM codex, has a single formation, and took away a lot of the variety of the previous codex.

I don't see any reason to complain why your codex is underpowered.

I am interested in seeing how these changes to the SM codex will affect small point and large point games. I see vehicle squadrons as a pathway to almost IG levels of tank spam.

I'll explain then, because I'm one of those players unhappy with the Formations given now that I'm trying to build a list. And I'll even preface this by saying that I love Formations in general. I think they're a lot of fun as was extremely excited for the Space Marines to get a Decurion. Figured my Astral Claws would have something fun to work with on the Fast Attack side of things and my Ultramarines would be able to do as they like.

The new book has ways to run Infantry Mobs and Vehicle Squadrons OR Drop Pod armies OR Bike armies. It does not have ways to run AND anything. There is no TAC build here that utilizes every aspect of Ultramarines, Imperial Fists or Salamanders, and certainly not White Scars. Those armies have to go back to CAD again, because Space Marines, according to leaked pages atleast, don't even have a Detachment similar to the Baal Strike Force or Great Wolf Detachment. The Demi-Company is awesome, and I will likely build an army using that, but I still have to use minimum 3 tank units, or Whirlwinds and Speeders, or minimum 3 Scouts. There's nothing to include just another Devastator Squad or a spare Bike squad or Assault Squad. And nothing in the Decurion to give a single tank choice like two Predators in a Squadron.

Spam lists are happy with this, able to take one idea and run it into the ground. But I want a balanced list for casual games, and the minimum requirements are too excessive for me to be able to anything with using these Formations. I'm stuck with a CAD and Saint Tylus Formation, just like the previous codex. Especially since Tyrannic War Veterans don't appear to be in the codex for some friggin reason. The Dataslate has to still be used, which means they have no options to go into a Decurion. Just one of the many complaints that can be made about the new book. The codex was supposed to be a great, grand thing bringing it all into one. Instead, it saved me 40pts on my 1850pt list. I can now include six Terminators instead of five. Yay...

Just looked through all those images on OP's link.

You know what I hate about this new codex?

It is Codex Ultramarines with chapter tactics slapped on to facilitate the use of other chapters.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UNIT PHOTOGRAPHS is painted in the Ultramarines colour scheme. Seriously, GW?

In the 6th edition codex the unit art was varied on purpose to give you the feel that this was a codex dedicated to many chapters. Sure, the UMs had the largest fluff section and the largest miniatures gallery, but overall it still felt like this was a book being used by many chapters.

Now in this new book, except for the CT page, everything else feels like I'm holding a codex of and for the blue boys.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Just looked through all those images on OP's link.

You know what I hate about this new codex?

It is Codex Ultramarines with chapter tactics slapped on to facilitate the use of other chapters.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UNIT PHOTOGRAPHS is painted in the Ultramarines colour scheme. Seriously, GW?

In the 6th edition codex the unit art was varied on purpose to give you the feel that this was a codex dedicated to many chapters. Sure, the UMs had the largest fluff section and the largest miniatures gallery, but overall it still felt like this was a book being used by many chapters.

Now in this new book, except for the CT page, everything else feels like I'm holding a codex of and for the blue boys.

In b4 Marneus Calgar and the Ultramarines are the spiritual liege of all other Space Marines

Could be worse. The Eldar are practically dedicated to Saim-Hann with a small helping of Iyanden. What, did GW sell all the other reference armies on ebay? I know things are bad in terms of money, but surely they aren't that bad!

Don't know if the new sm are powerful or not, they don't seem to fit their decurion stuff in to a 1500 list. And free razorbacks are cool and all, untile someone starts thinking how much 10 razorbacks cost in money and how many mules will be needed to transport the list. The ad mecha stuff free stuff was good, because it was upgrades to already owned models. Free rhinos aren't actualy free, unless someone uses paper printed ones.

The free transport army is hardly overpowered, it can be really strong in games that are all about objectives but that's about it. It also puts heavy restrictions on the army choices and quite frankly, I probably couldn't be arsed to play an army like that more than 3 times before it got boring.

There are much better things in the Codex. White Scars got a buff, Smashbane got a buff ( because Clan Raukaan still functions as the book is indeed called Codex: Space Marines ) and now you can slap a biking Librarius Conclave in the middle of your White Scars army to buff everyone and their pet hamsters.

So, White Scars.

And yeah funnily enough the Razorback spam company also works best with White Scars... scouting bikes and razorbacks everywhere. Drop Pod spam is ofcourse an option but for that I'd take different CT's ofcourse.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Just looked through all those images on OP's link.

You know what I hate about this new codex?

It is Codex Ultramarines with chapter tactics slapped on to facilitate the use of other chapters.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UNIT PHOTOGRAPHS is painted in the Ultramarines colour scheme. Seriously, GW?

In the 6th edition codex the unit art was varied on purpose to give you the feel that this was a codex dedicated to many chapters. Sure, the UMs had the largest fluff section and the largest miniatures gallery, but overall it still felt like this was a book being used by many chapters.

Now in this new book, except for the CT page, everything else feels like I'm holding a codex of and for the blue boys.

IMO, good. Ultras lost their codex to accommodate 900+ other chapters whose only real difference is the paint on their armour.

I don't think the free transports are more overpowered than other formations in other codexes.
If you want free transports, you will have to field what i have not seen in tournaments since many editions: a lot of tactical squads. I applaud any reward to field these.

For me personally the new codex does not mean that i am now going to buy lots of transports or change a lot of things.

I will try this transport army with what i have and field my tactical squads with free stuff. Nice.

Furthermore I love the "small change" that dreadnoughts now have 4 attacks. They might be worth it now, being able to take on knights.

Finally this codex gives me a VERY good reason for an old plan i have: paint 1 tactical squad from each loyal first founding chapter. If i also add a transport i am building the "transport army" and also have fun painting variety, not mass production.

ORicK wrote:
Finally this codex gives me a VERY good reason for an old plan i have: paint 1 tactical squad from each loyal first founding chapter. If i also add a transport i am building the "transport army" and also have fun painting variety, not mass production.

That's actually kind of a cool idea I mean, it doesn't fit in the context of a battle company, but you could call it a special joint-operations strike force company!

The new codex frustrates me even before it has been released.
Marines is one of the most boring armies to play.
Too static, too predictable, too underwhelming.

However, the good news are White Scars who follow a different pattern.

@Talys: EXACTLY!
And "Joint operations" will be the title for that projec (tahk you!)

A lot more fun to paint and the "parking lot' will at least look quite interesting.

I already have Space Wolves and Blood Angels.
Now i "just" have to add the rest... ;-)

Makumba wrote:
Don't know if the new sm are powerful or not, they don't seem to fit their decurion stuff in to a 1500 list. And free razorbacks are cool and all, untile someone starts thinking how much 10 razorbacks cost in money and how many mules will be needed to transport the list. The ad mecha stuff free stuff was good, because it was upgrades to already owned models. Free rhinos aren't actualy free, unless someone uses paper printed ones.

First, they can indeed fit a full company in 1500 quite handily, along with an auxiliary choice (15 scouts or a speeder+whirlwind are both cheap options.) They even have room to gear up guys and throw in command squads for MORE free transports.

And some of us still have our dusty old rhinos and razorbacks from 5e and before, along with a collection of pods. I could run 6 razors and 6 pods fo' free right this minute in 1500 points. And don't forget for running a gladius you get to have Ultramarines chapter tactic on top of your normal tactic, PLUS a second use of the tactical doctrine for the guys in the battle company.

In objective based games, especially like ITC events, that list will be monstrous. Killing almost 30 different units of marines or vehicles in 5-7 turns is actually a very tall order, and with that many units, they're ready to grab whatever maelstrom objectives come up while dog piling on the eternal war objectives. They can even null deploy with drop pods if going 2nd and sneak first blood off you, and then swarm in on later turns.

This is NOT undisputedly the most powerful thing in 40k. It's powerful in objective heavy situations, and still decent in anything but purge the alien, but can definitely still lose. A single greentide mass-multiassault could take mighty strides in clearing several units off the board, for example.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Just looked through all those images on OP's link.

You know what I hate about this new codex?

It is Codex Ultramarines with chapter tactics slapped on to facilitate the use of other chapters.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UNIT PHOTOGRAPHS is painted in the Ultramarines colour scheme. Seriously, GW?

In the 6th edition codex the unit art was varied on purpose to give you the feel that this was a codex dedicated to many chapters. Sure, the UMs had the largest fluff section and the largest miniatures gallery, but overall it still felt like this was a book being used by many chapters.

Now in this new book, except for the CT page, everything else feels like I'm holding a codex of and for the blue boys.

This is because almost every senior games workshop sculptor/game tester/painter has a ultramarine fetish. Seriously, read some of the old white dwarfs from a few years ago with the monthly battle reports and when interviewed before/after the game they almost always say something along the lines of "yeah ultramarines are my all time favourite army, in fact I actually have over 25,000 points worth of them"

I do sometimes think that if I was not bombarded by the colour scheme constantly, I may actually take a shine to it.

So, gw wants to sell more metal bawxes, eh?
Also, i don't quite get what does UM tactix do now. Everyone can do it now.

The UM tactics just allow you to do it again! (Or do it at all in a CAD, other chapters have to be a part of a Gladius Strike Force to gain all 3 doctrines, or part of a Demi Company to get the Tac Doctrine)

You could actually run 4 demi companies in an 1850 list.

2 captains, 2 chaplains, 100 marines, and 20 DP/RB spammination

by the old points values is 1764

 jokerkd wrote:
You could actually run 4 demi companies in an 1850 list.

2 captains, 2 chaplains, 100 marines, and 20 DP/RB spammination

by the old points values is 1764

This sounds great.
I'd choose DP's since they arrive where you want them, while RB's are usually get shot down before you can move them far enough.

You'd need 2 Auxilaries (so 330 pts of Scouts) making it 2094 points.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You'd need 2 Auxilaries (so 330 pts of Scouts) making it 2094 points.

damn it!

You only need one Auxiliary.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
You only need one Auxiliary.

Still bad news.

Man, Fieravious Carron is going to have an aneurysm.

So on another note scouts are bumped up to Ws and Bs4 with no points increase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They can still take the Land Speeder Storm for 40pts and the assault cannon is a 15pt upgrade.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
You only need one Auxiliary.

For 2 Companies you need 2 Auxilaries as that's 2 Gladius Strike Forces (maximum of 2 Demi-companies in a Gladius)

i gotta say, while some chapters may hav gotten dinged a bit, this is a great codex for Crimson Fist players. Special Issue Ammo getting bloter drill is real nice, and a ten point drop in Sternguard cost dont hurt. Most importantly- the guy who makes the sternguard scoring, Pedro Kantor, just got alot more survivable, somehoe they must hav found him a suit of Artificer Armour, hes now 2+ with a 4+ Invul and a 5++ Fnp, awesome!
And if you need somethign even killier, you can take cousin Lysander who somehoe became even more survivable with FnP. Throw in the Chapter specific Warlord Traits in the WD and things are finally looking up for the Sons of Dorn.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

lustigjh wrote:Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Oh yes it is.

And everything in those core formations is Objective Secured, so any purchased dedicated transports (including drop pods) are also objective secured. MWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ugh. As if drop pods weren't cheesy enough as is. This game is becoming so much fuuuuuuuun. ZZZZZZZZZZ.

I better start writing a Ghostbusters list consisting of MSU deep strike Plaguebearers to clean up ghost pods dropped on objectives like shiny metal turds or else find a new hobby.

It's not like METAL BOXES and soda cans are hard to kill...and that idea of yours is probably a good counter to it. Also, drop pods aren't OP, just saying.

35 point objsec soda can which doesn't mishap if it stays on the board and requires anti armor attacks to remove? It's definitely too cheap for what it does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Just looked through all those images on OP's link.

You know what I hate about this new codex?

It is Codex Ultramarines with chapter tactics slapped on to facilitate the use of other chapters.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UNIT PHOTOGRAPHS is painted in the Ultramarines colour scheme. Seriously, GW?

In the 6th edition codex the unit art was varied on purpose to give you the feel that this was a codex dedicated to many chapters. Sure, the UMs had the largest fluff section and the largest miniatures gallery, but overall it still felt like this was a book being used by many chapters.

Now in this new book, except for the CT page, everything else feels like I'm holding a codex of and for the blue boys.

If this is true, much of the sarcastic posting in the "totally made up rumors" thread actually came true. How hilarious

Is this better?/ legal.
Chapter Master Smash Fether-225pts

Command Squad with Narthecium 4x storm shields, 3x power mauls 1x power
210pts
Razorback

3 TAC squads 210
Razorbacks

Assault Marines with 2 flamers: 80pts
Drop pod

Devastators with 4x gravcannons-210pts
Drop Pod


Chaplain on bike-110pts

3 TAC squads 210
Razorbacks

Assault Marines with 2 flamers 80pts
Drop Pod

Devastators with 4x gravcannons-210pts
Drop Pod



Techmarine-65pts

2 predators with Vindicator

300pts

Aegis Defense Line- 50pts

 Ratius wrote:
It also has no AA and MSU bikers arent particularly scary built as they are above.

It costs 20 points to put a TL lascannon on a free Razorback. Do that a few times and that's your AA. Besides, this formation can bring 2,400 points to an 1850 match, do you really think it's wise to put things in reserve and put yourself at an even greater disadvantage?

The formation is severely OP and broken.

Pretty sure you can't take an Aegis and stay battleforged while using the gladius.

If you're looking to exploit the free vehicle detachment, the two lists below are fine examples I pulled out of the rumors thread:

 pretre wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So... Everything in the Demi/Full company gets obsec, not just the tacticals.

My Drop List with 2 Demis has 26 Obsec Units, 12 of which are pods.

Could you post the list again? I'm intrigued.

Just a quick one:

Two Demi-Companies so both DC groups have Obsec, Tactical Doctrines, Free Transports

Demi Company 1
Captain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

Demi-Company 2
Chaplain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

1st Company Task Force (PE vs one unit at start of game, -2 Leadership for enemy if within 12" of 3 units)
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod

1845

one from MikhailLenin

Spoiler:

New White Scars based on new SM Codex:

Gladius Strike Force Detachment - Gain Combat Doctrines

Battle Company (2 Demi Company Combined) Core - All Transport purchased are Free, but not their Upgrades. Additionally gain 2 Tactical Doctrines and all Models in it are Objective Secured.

Kor-Sarro Khan (Warlord - Grants Scout to all and 12" Reroll Morale Bubble)
Chaplain w/ Auspex
6x 5 Tactical Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Devastator Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma

Storm Wing Auxilliary - As long as 1 Stormtalon is alive, the Raven gains Strafing Run.

Stormraven with TL AssCan, TL MM
2x Stormtalon with TL AssCan, Skyhammer Missiles

Total Points 1850.

I think he ended up swapping some grav on tacs around, but still.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Pretty sure you can't take an Aegis and stay battleforged while using the gladius.

If you're looking to exploit the free vehicle detachment, the two lists below are fine examples I pulled out of the rumors thread:

 pretre wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So... Everything in the Demi/Full company gets obsec, not just the tacticals.

My Drop List with 2 Demis has 26 Obsec Units, 12 of which are pods.

Could you post the list again? I'm intrigued.

Just a quick one:

Two Demi-Companies so both DC groups have Obsec, Tactical Doctrines, Free Transports

Demi Company 1
Captain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

Demi-Company 2
Chaplain - 90
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Tac with Combi-Melta/Melta in DP with Deathwind - 100
5 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90
5 Dev Squad with 4 Grav, Cherub in Drop Pod with Locator Beacon - 225

1st Company Task Force (PE vs one unit at start of game, -2 Leadership for enemy if within 12" of 3 units)
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Sternguard in Drop Pod

1845

one from MikhailLenin

Spoiler:

New White Scars based on new SM Codex:

Gladius Strike Force Detachment - Gain Combat Doctrines

Battle Company (2 Demi Company Combined) Core - All Transport purchased are Free, but not their Upgrades. Additionally gain 2 Tactical Doctrines and all Models in it are Objective Secured.

Kor-Sarro Khan (Warlord - Grants Scout to all and 12" Reroll Morale Bubble)
Chaplain w/ Auspex
6x 5 Tactical Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma
2x 5 Devastator Marines with 1 Grav Cannon/Amp in a Razorback with Lascannon / TL Plasma

Storm Wing Auxilliary - As long as 1 Stormtalon is alive, the Raven gains Strafing Run.

Stormraven with TL AssCan, TL MM
2x Stormtalon with TL AssCan, Skyhammer Missiles

Total Points 1850.

I think he ended up swapping some grav on tacs around, but still.

Then drop the aegis and give lascannons to the preds. Easy swap



Automatically Appended Next Post:
That white scars list is pretty brutal man.

By the way, this codex made BA, SW, CSM, and IG look like complete garbage. They're obsolete now. Going back to the OP, yes the codex is too much because of that reason.

Anyone disagree?

With the current state of the game as a whole "on 11" and rising, who cares?

When they fix Eldar maybe I'll start to feel guilty...

This era of 40k is about cheese, broken combos, power gaming and min/maxing.

Wish it wasn't, but the formation and ally rules ( to name a few things) have given cheesmongers a green light to do what they do.

So don't sweat it, just roll with it.

Next edition maybe they (GW) will come to their senses.

Maybe not...

From (yet another) SM thread:

Or we could just wait until the rest of the codicies get updated which is very likely (easily) by the end of 2015 and then assess the lay of the land / meta game?

There have always always been codicies that have been "left behind" with release schedules. This is no different whatsoever. The only positive point this time is that GW actually seem to be belting out releases quite quickly so likely it will balance out.

Then we'll get 8th

mercury14 wrote:
By the way, this codex made BA, SW, CSM, and IG look like complete garbage. They're obsolete now. Going back to the OP, yes the codex is too much because of that reason.

Anyone disagree?

I would argue that CSM's are on a level of 'well below even garbage', especially compared to BA's & SW's.
We still don't even have a deathstar crutch to lean on that doesn't require allying in a metric tonne of Daemons.

As a Dark Eldar player, it appears neigh-impossible to beat Space Marines that can now do MSU much better than we can. :/

I also play Eldar but.... How are the Dark Kin supposed to compete when it's 1850 of fragile elves vs 2400 of tough SM and 30 free obsec hull points?

The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have payed for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

 Red Marine wrote:
The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have been for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

SM are supposed to be elite. GW published rules in deep opposition to their fluff, making them the best tank spam army.

Sorry IG, you've been beaten at your own game because you pay points for your tanks. Suckers.

 Red Marine wrote:
The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have payed for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

Yeah, this is my concern. I like the idea that Space Marines are elite warriors with top-notch gear and are ready to rapidly deploy or redeploy. While the idea of getting free transports is good for that, it translates in gameplay to more of the same plus ObSec spam. It's the definition of "win because you showed up" (the actual games are more complicated than that - it's just an overall description of the fundamental strategy of such armies).

Personally, I was hoping something like "after seeing your opponent's army list, but before choosing the mission, you may swap any wargear in this detachment for another piece of wargear with an equal or lower points cost", allowing Marines to always be equipped with "the best" items - at the cost where most players will always just buy the most expensive items for their squads.

Epic Multi-Quote!

mercury14 wrote:By the way, this codex made BA, SW, CSM, and IG look like complete garbage. They're obsolete now. Going back to the OP, yes the codex is too much because of that reason.

Anyone disagree?

Yes. I disagree. I won't deny that the new Marine codex has eclipsed those codexes you mentioned in terms of power, alone with most of the other remaining 6th edition codexes (barring Tau).

However, I would argue that this is a problem with external balance and the need to bring the top codexes down somewhat in power, along with giving the lower-tier codexes a boost. But, as I and others have pointed out, the new formation is neither broken nor unbeatable.

CT GAMER wrote:With the current state of the game as a whole "on 11" and rising, who cares?

When they fix Eldar maybe I'll start to feel guilty...

This era of 40k is about cheese, broken combos, power gaming and min/maxing.

Wish it wasn't, but the formation and ally rules ( to name a few things) have given cheesmongers a green light to do what they do.

So don't sweat it, just roll with it.

Next edition maybe they (GW) will come to their senses.

Maybe not...

Somebody gets it. Warhammer 40k has always been a fundamentally unbalanced game, with it being the players' responsibility (for better or worse) to impose some sort of balance between the various armies and factions.

I wouldn't bet on things improving, though. This is GW we're talking about...

Red Marine wrote: The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have payed for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

That's the trade-off with MSU. You're giving up survivability for taking objectives. And hey, it wins tournaments.

I do apologize that Space Marines are neither the invulnerable gods of the Black Library novels nor the Mary Sue movie marines. However, anyone who looks at the new codex and thinks that the new Space Marines are underpowered is either blind or illiterate.

mercury14 wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, it appears neigh-impossible to beat Space Marines that can now do MSU much better than we can. :/

I also play Eldar but.... How are the Dark Kin supposed to compete when it's 1850 of fragile elves vs 2400 of tough SM and 30 free obsec hull points?

Simple. Crack open their METAL BOXES/soda cans with Darklight weapons. Drown the pathetic loyalist dogs in poison. Assault whatever remains. And when in doubt, spread the objectives out.

Free transport sound like an excuse to sale more models...
Running away from the fantasy,it feels,every day more,as profit is poisoning the whole fluff/game design compartment...
What a shame...

Bar the list being Illegal (As pointed out, you have to take 1 Aux per Demi-Company), it's just bloody tactical marines.

What are you going to do if you roll Kill Points?

Hell, why should Eldar or Necrons care about your ObSec? Tabling an army of 5 man tact squads isn't exactly hard. Especially when you have NO anti-flier, anti-Super Heavy or anti-MC ANYWHERE (Woo a few meltas and grav in 5 man tact squads? Scaryyyy....)

I've said this in pretty much an Identical thread a day or so ago:

Unless your gibbets have ObSec, No one is worried about the double demi-company.

Izural wrote:
Bar the list being Illegal (As pointed out, you have to take 1 Aux per Demi-Company), it's just bloody tactical marines.

What are you going to do if you roll Kill Points?

Hell, why should Eldar or Necrons care about your ObSec? Tabling an army of 5 man tact squads isn't exactly hard. Especially when you have NO anti-flier, anti-Super Heavy or anti-MC ANYWHERE (Woo a few meltas and grav in 5 man tact squads? Scaryyyy....)

I've said this in pretty much an Identical thread a day or so ago:

Unless your gibbets have ObSec, No one is worried about the double demi-company.

This. It seems like every other week there is a "tac marines suck hard and you should uninstall life.exe if you use them". And other than drop pods, people say the same about the sm transports. Now it's those things in mass, and people lose their minds. Still just a ton of tacs and their thin metal boxes. Can it be solid, competetive, and even decently powerful? Yes. Is it ott op broken cheese? Not even close.

Wait a few months and it will be back to "cent star and grav bikes or gtfu and l2p newb"

Holy Jesus fething hell.

I can't wait to see what we Tau get.

Watch us get a formation that lets us deploy off the board and shoot from 30 meters away if we take 6 XV-88. And then get free marker drones for every broadside taken. The broadsides can be taken in squads of 6 for half the point cost if in this formation.

Keep in mind this formation isn't a CAD... So they don't have objective secured.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Keep in mind this formation isn't a CAD... So they don't have objective secured.

Keep in mind that the demi company (the formation everyone is talking about) grants OS to all units in it.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Simple. Crack open their METAL BOXES/soda cans with Darklight weapons. Drown the pathetic loyalist dogs in poison. Assault whatever remains. And when in doubt, spread the objectives out.

I'm trying to figure out the "simple" part of this. It takes an average of 7 dark lance shots to wreck a rhino. That's 300 points of ravagers or 350 points of raiders to destroy a 35 point vehicle.

As a Space Marine player I'd be jubilent seeing you waste that much firepower.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Simple. Crack open their METAL BOXES/soda cans with Darklight weapons. Drown the pathetic loyalist dogs in poison. Assault whatever remains. And when in doubt, spread the objectives out.

I'm trying to figure out the "simple" part of this. It takes an average of 7 dark lance shots to wreck a rhino. That's 300 points of ravagers or 350 points of raiders to destroy a 35 point vehicle.

As a Space Marine player I'd be jubilent seeing you waste that much firepower.

Be responsible and crack them with grotesques...

Same situation, you're spending several magnitudes more in points and opportunity to kill one 35 point transport a turn, and there's ten transports.

And that's just rhinos. Grots can't even hurt pods.

 Gamgee wrote:
Holy Jesus fething hell.

I can't wait to see what we Tau get.

Watch us get a formation that lets us deploy off the board and shoot from 30 meters away if we take 6 XV-88. And then get free marker drones for every broadside taken. The broadsides can be taken in squads of 6 for half the point cost if in this formation.

Well, they aren't Eldar or Space Marines so a buff is not a sure thing (sadly, I'm saying that seriously). Just pray you don't get the Dark Eldar treatment. At least, you have almost no named HQs to remove

 Talys wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Holy Jesus fething hell.

I can't wait to see what we Tau get.

Watch us get a formation that lets us deploy off the board and shoot from 30 meters away if we take 6 XV-88. And then get free marker drones for every broadside taken. The broadsides can be taken in squads of 6 for half the point cost if in this formation.

Well, they aren't Eldar or Space Marines so a buff is not a sure thing (sadly, I'm saying that seriously). Just pray you don't get the Dark Eldar treatment. At least, you have almost no named HQs to remove

Tau got pretty solid treatment last time around, as they came out well above anything Chaos Marines or Dark Angels could put up. Plus the army is highly popular with all the mech suits and eastern influences.

And let's be honest here, we know that it's Dark Angels and Chaos Marines especially who GW love to nerf into oblivion for no reason at all!
I'd wager good money that DA's will be on a level slightly under the new Vanillas & Tau (whenever their book comes), while Chaos Marines will somehow manage to earns across the board nerfs and pts hikes, because we all know that Chaos can't have nice toys after the 3.5 debacle!

New tau codex? ::shiver:: Pulse rifles glance out rhino quick enough now, imagine formation buffs on top of marker lights. They'll eat transport & msu 10 at a time, from across the board.

Dunno...i managed to steamroll 2 marines player yesterday with my KDK.

Now none of us had expressly Competitive lists, it was a White Scars list, with lots of Bikes, Korssaro a WW, a Stormraven and a Thunderfire.

I had a Blood Host with Slaugthercult, Lord on Jugger and Axe of Khorne/Goredriker combo, Gorepack with 2 msu bikes with 2 meltas and 3 Hounds units, 2 maulers, 1 Soul crusher and a second CAD with SKulltaker 2 Cultists msu and a LR.

Start of second turn he was down to the WW, Thunderfire cannon, 5 bikes scattered across the board and the SR still in reserve, while i had only lost a SOulgrinder, a rhino, 3 bikes and like 5 hounds.

Second game Vs a UM with Gladius strike force, so 7 Combat doctrines in total( i officialy dub the Marines codex "Reroll Marines").

His Chapy in a Assault Centurions squad in a LR crusader, 4 TAC squad splitted, 2 LR, a Hunter and Stalker( he though that i would play a Heldrake as usual, but i did go with a double maulerfiend instead so yeah).

Start of turn 3, he was reduced to 1 LR crusader, 8 marines a immobilzed and weapon less Stalker tank.

WHile i did loose a Summoned skull cannon, 10hounds, 5 posseseds, one of the Maulers, 4 Zerkers and 3 bikes.

All of those in 2200pts games.

All in all what has changed for Marines are tanks squadrons, but if a guy as only 1 or 2 preds, nothings guarantee that he is willing to buy a third.

The formations and the rerolls, and yeah a lot more units has acces to grav guns, for the rest either units din't change that much, or they got a points drop, but their key wargear has a point increase, (TH/SS termies).

But they still have all the weakness of Marines like they used to.

So in my 1850 FLGS tournament last weekend two SM players took the battle company, going undefeated other than one of them losing to the other one. There was a 2 hour time limit where you finish the current turn after that.

The issue was that with so much extra volume of army on the map, the turns went far too slowly. One of them was even summoning on top of it. Their matches were only 3-4 turns... So they simply flooded objectives with obsec pods and Razorbacks and easily won where their opponents had no mechanism to counter it in a short match. Even if the matches were 2.5 hours @1850 I dont think it would be that much better. It's just so much *stuff*.

What do people think of this?

play 1500 or less points, and put a turn time limit per player?

The Battle Company is great at winning the objective missions, but if it is called upon to beat an opposing army it will have a hard time. It doesn't have the power to do it. That plus the time it takes and the effort to transport it. I figure it will be a flash in the pan, six months out you won't see them at tournaments anymore.

mercury14 wrote:
So in my 1850 FLGS tournament last weekend two SM players took the battle company, going undefeated other than one of them losing to the other one. There was a 2 hour time limit where you finish the current turn after that.

The issue was that with so much extra volume of army on the map, the turns went far too slowly. One of them was even summoning on top of it. Their matches were only 3-4 turns... So they simply flooded objectives with obsec pods and Razorbacks and easily won where their opponents had no mechanism to counter it in a short match. Even if the matches were 2.5 hours @1850 I dont think it would be that much better. It's just so much *stuff*.

What do people think of this?

This. I never finished a game at wargames con, even going as fast as I could. It was especially bad against a defensive-minded necron decurion. I'd spend 20 minutes moving and resolving my 30+ units worth of shots. He'd roll saves, then RP's, then rerolls, and pick up like 3 models total in the turn. He'd spend 20 minutes moving blobs of warriors and firing back, not killing much... It was a nightmare to try and play that game in a time limit.


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 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Battle Company is great at winning the objective missions, but if it is called upon to beat an opposing army it will have a hard time. It doesn't have the power to do it. That plus the time it takes and the effort to transport it. I figure it will be a flash in the pan, six months out you won't see them at tournaments anymore.

That's the long and short of it. I think I may still be playing mine in ITC events in 6 months though. The missions are set up really well for a play the mission army. Purge the alien comes early, so you have decent odds of still playing someone who didn't bring a hardcore top tables list. You just have to get past that hiccup round where you're essentially guaranteed to only win 7-4 at best, and then you're back into objectives for the rest of the event.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Personally I'd look at the anti-air formation instead of either of these, as the OP is missing it. Probably ballparked at about 180-200

I've worked out double demi - it is not viable outside of 2500 points plus. The choices are sub-optimal and razors are also sub optimal - podding tacticals are sub optimal (devs are much better than tacs now due to doctrines), chaplains are a huge waste. Under 2000 points the formation essentially gives you a free chaplain and single 5 man tac squad for the cost of taking a bunch of crap units. ( this is hardly game-breaking)

Since most games occur well under this point limit. Gladius is basically only useful in single demi company formations that don't give you free razors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Personally I'd look at the anti-air formation instead of either of these, as the OP is missing it. Probably ballparked at about 180-200

the proper way to run it is 3WW and a single LS.
65x3 +45.
Thats 240.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've worked out double demi - it is not viable outside of 2500 points plus. The choices are sub-optimal and razors are also sub optimal - podding tacticals are sub optimal (devs are much better than tacs now due to doctrines), chaplains are a huge waste. Under 2000 points the formation essentially gives you a free chaplain and single 5 man tac squad for the cost of taking a bunch of crap units. ( this is hardly game-breaking)

Since most games occur well under this point limit. Gladius is basically only useful in single demi company formations that don't give you free razors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Personally I'd look at the anti-air formation instead of either of these, as the OP is missing it. Probably ballparked at about 180-200

the proper way to run it is 3WW and a single LS.
65x3 +45.
Thats 240.

Ok I had a friendly gave set up for Sunday figured it was something fluffy went you know I'll play sister's with the new libby sm formation have some fun with it. So i found out I'm playing an Eldar list.
Went well friendly went bye bye and lets bust out the good stuff. So i made the double Demi company Gladius. Got everything kitted out went ok now the transports 7 razor backs 3 pods for free. gives me 490 free points of ob sec armor I can roll around in. Yes slightly broken o ya i upgraded 80 pionts on the razors so 2 have lt las and 1 has lt plasma las. 3 storm bolters 2 hunter stalkers and 3 drop pods so my list comes out to 10 free ob sec transports all with guns, Chapter tactics yes a little over powered that is 500 points at 1500 my list is 2k if you add the transports.

From the looks of the SM dex im crossing my fingers for a good and fun CSM dex!!!

having looked at the SM 'dex it seems solid to me, honestly it's a codex where I'd be tempted depending on what I'm playing to not bother with formations and just use the standard CAD anyway.

the detachment set up is great if you wanna play a very typical codex force. but people wanting a white scars bike army, a black templar army etc, are proably gonna prefer to just CAD it (although I'd personally be fine if a BT player wanted to sub crusader squads for tatical squads in a demi-company formation)

aronthomas17 wrote:
From the looks of the SM dex im crossing my fingers for a good and fun CSM dex!!!

I would love to see that. Dark Angels got a hefty boost (at least the RW did), CSM should as well. The Daemonkin books don't seem to be an adequate substitution for C:CSM. None of the special characters are there. Kharn should have been in Daemonkin. A strong, non-gimmicky C:CSM is needed.

People makes such a fuss about it.

Played 3 SM with the new codex, nothing to write home about, apart from the near constant rerolls, wich is the reason we call this codex "reroll marines", outside this, they are still Space MArines, with their old tricks and weaknesses.

Yup there is some nifty formations, none of our players are really into formations, because they like to tailor their lists has they wish, while formations restrict you in some ways.

So no, not all the SM players are making vehicles squadrons or have 3 VIndis on hand, or are interested in buying the extra Vindis.

Not all of them have the neccesary models to make those, and they are not really whilling to invest in new models.

Sure there are formations that can be easier to achieve then others, still hasn't seen them though, and i will greet them the same way i did for the last 17years, with a Chain axe to the face.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
People makes such a fuss about it.

Played 3 SM with the new codex, nothing to write home about, apart from the near constant rerolls, wich is the reason we call this codex "reroll marines", outside this, they are still Space MArines, with their old tricks and weaknesses.

Yup there is some nifty formations, none of our players are really into formations, because they like to tailor their lists has they wish, while formations restrict you in some ways.

So no, not all the SM players are making vehicles squadrons or have 3 VIndis on hand, or are interested in buying the extra Vindis.

Not all of them have the neccesary models to make those, and they are not really whilling to invest in new models.

Sure there are formations that can be easier to achieve then others, still hasn't seen them though, and i will greet them the same way i did for the last 17years, with a Chain axe to the face.

Well, I mean the main complaint (other than grav cents) is formations, so if your friends aren't playing formations, then your games aren't really proving that the complaints are invalid, right?

Is not really about invalidating anything, more like" the sky is not falling, simply kills them the way you killed them before".

Now the UM player did play the Gladius strike force, giving him 7 Combat Doctrines, now apart from the extra Doctrine, this formation isn't really much.

Yesterday played a IF guy who tried the Land Raider formation, te one that as long that each raider is in 6" of each other, they ignore the damage charts results excepte for explosion, wich is nice, but i still blew up one with meltas to the face and the other one with my Maulerfiend.

The scariest formation imo are the Conclave and the Annihilation strike force, the rest i don't know them enough to voice an opinion on them.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Is not really about invalidating anything, more like" the sky is not falling, simply kills them the way you killed them before".

Now when I play against SM they have 30 free obsec hull points, often sporting TL lascannons, often deployed deeply so that I can't reach them in assault. This is nothing like killing them like I did before.

My Decurion wouldn't really have much issue with that.

Just saying.

mercury14 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Is not really about invalidating anything, more like" the sky is not falling, simply kills them the way you killed them before".

Now when I play against SM they have 30 free obsec hull points, often sporting TL lascannons, often deployed deeply so that I can't reach them in assault. This is nothing like killing them like I did before.

They aren't free - best to look at it like this. It cost 90 points minum to get one of these "free" objective secured units with a TL LC or las plas. For 95 points you can get 5 scouts in a LSS and these don't reduce your choice for army comp - don't force you to take a chaplain and a captain, and come stock with scout/objective secured/deep strike/infiltrate/assault vehicle and 2 nice anti infantry heavy weapons.

The razor with 5 bare marines costs 5 points less...has a ton less special rules and a lot less tactical flexibility and takes away tactical flexibility from your whole army with a ton of sub optimal choices. Not to mention who wants to buy 9 razor backs - convert 9 laz plas turrets or buy expensive forge world turret - just so the rules can be updated in 1 year to be made totally useless again. The answer is - no one wants to do this. Esp not when you can make a list as strong or stronger than double demi by picking optimal choices.