This is all over facebook at the moment, and meeting both skeptical excitement and confusion as it's unlike GW to sell a product and not the airbrush for it
If you using an airbrush mastering a pipette shouldn't be a problem. I find them preferable too as it makes measuring and then replicating mixes easier.
Nonetheless GW are a bit too late to the market for me, I'm fully loaded up with Vallejo. Will be handy for filling any gaps for GW armies though.
Hastings posted on Warseer that GW is also going to release an airbrush gun, but does not know when. He mentioned this in response to the new airbrush colors.
Desubot wrote: No dropper for an airbrush? nope nope nope nope nope.
I hate using dropper bottles, personally, as I tend to do mixed colors and I just keep them in empty paint pots and use a pipette.
Have yet to have any issues myself.
I'm pretty excited about this. I got a huge number of paints when they first released as a present and I'm a bit OCD when it comes to paint matching. Having airbrush versions of base colors is gonna be great as they don't tend to thin out correctly from my attempts.
Desubot wrote: No dropper for an airbrush? nope nope nope nope nope.
At the cost of their paints, a better thought out container for airbrush use would have been ideal.
Yes piping it over is an option, maybe I am just getting sick of covering for them being cheap and putting them in the same looking pots as the normal paint.
I have to ask the question I had asked GW before (got no answer): do their paints contain cadmium??
In a sprayed form it is INCREDIBLY bad for you, so are they using alternative pigments? (tends to be reds and yellows)
Wearing a mask and venting anyway but not everyone is as paranoid as me so I like to see some attempt at being responsible.
From the other thread. The one name that stands out is 'Relictor Gold' in the middle column. With the current release of Retributor Armour and Liberator Gold its hard to see the necessity of another gold paint (unless it is a yellow 'gold').
ImAGeek wrote: I dread to think how much a GW airbrush will cost.
I can't think of any reason why you would want to buy the GW ones when you can get a quality Iwata for £50-60. Production of it is obviously going to be outsourced, and you'll have the GW premium added so that it will probably cost 50% more than it should do.
Paints are a different matter as I assume people might want specific colour shades for particular chapters of marines for example, although for the primary colours again a knowledgeable hobbyist is always going to go for any of the well established ranges from the likes of Vallejo or Mr. Hobby.
ImAGeek wrote: I dread to think how much a GW airbrush will cost.
I can't think of any reason why you would want to buy the GW ones when you can get a quality Iwata for £50-60. Production of it is obviously going to be outsourced, and you'll have the GW premium added so that it will probably cost 50% more than it should do.
Paints are a different matter as I assume people might want specific colour shades for particular chapters of marines for example, although for the primary colours again a knowledgeable hobbyist is always going to go for any of the well established ranges from the likes of Vallejo or Mr. Hobby.
Oh yeah believe me I wouldn't get a GW one. A normal one is a bit much for me atm (with the compressor and stuff) let alone one with a stupid premium added. I just... Well I just dread to think what the price will actually end up being.
Via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I've been told that some of the GW paints are going OOP. I don't know if they're just being discontinued or whether they're being replaced, I just know it's due to happen in November. The colours going are:
Ratskin flesh
Warpfiend Grey
Slaanesh Grey
Ungor Flesh
Bestigor Flesh
Dark Reaper
Thunderhawk Blue
Tyrant Skull
Mourn Mountain Snow
Lamenters Yellow
Daemonette Hide
Etherium Blue
Blackfire Earth
Lustrian Undergrowth
The trade brochure for the Best Sellers range has red dots next to the paints and when I asked what that was that's when I was told.
-Aaron
certainly it seems likely that the demise of fantasy and the renaming of stuff in AoS might lead to some paint name changes, but this seems more than that (if true),
but then they 've already released new AoS colours and maybe there are more to come and this is just a rationalisation to make stuff fit in the paint racks?
whatever if any of the above are vital to a big project you've got running time to get a few spares in
Via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I've been told that some of the GW paints are going OOP. I don't know if they're just being discontinued or whether they're being replaced, I just know it's due to happen in November. The colours going are:
Ratskin flesh
Warpfiend Grey
Slaanesh Grey
Ungor Flesh
Bestigor Flesh
Dark Reaper
Thunderhawk Blue
Tyrant Skull
Mourn Mountain Snow
Lamenters Yellow
Daemonette Hide
Etherium Blue
Blackfire Earth
Lustrian Undergrowth
The trade brochure for the Best Sellers range has red dots next to the paints and when I asked what that was that's when I was told.
-Aaron
certainly it seems likely that the demise of fantasy and the renaming of stuff in AoS might lead to some paint name changes, but this seems more than that (if true),
but then they 've already released new AoS colours and maybe there are more to come and this is just a rationalisation to make stuff fit in the paint racks?
whatever if any of the above are vital to a big project you've got running time to get a few spares in
Not sure why you're posting that in this thread?
They picked their "51 best selling paints"--there's nothing to do with discontinued paints in there.
I am new to air brushing, so maybe I don't know. For me, no dropper bottle no buy. Why would I want a bottle beside being an advantage for GW in us being able to use less.
What am I not seeing here? I guess also the price will keep me away as well. So high price, no dropper and not wanting to pay $30 for a dropper will be no buy.
Those pots are a huge turn off. I know some folks will keep pushing pipettes but as a long time airbrush owner I'll take a dropper bottle ANY day over fiddling with another pipettes. Airbrushes already have enough components and messy endeavors without getting the paint into the damn gun.
Vallejo already makes more then enough colors with a natch to just about every color on that list plus more paint per pot which already matches GW's normal price per standard pot, if these are any higher I really see no use for the line .
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW the biggest benefit from a dropper bottle besides the ease of use is the fact that they are easier to keep clean, and you can force the air out of the dropper before capping them. With those GW pots your paint will dry up faster and the crust that inevitably forms on the rim will pollute your paint equaling more clogs in your brush.
I really doubt people saying "why would I want these when I already use vallejo" are the target market, to be honest. It's sensible for GW to do a line of airbrush paints to try and dissuade people from buying their paint elsewhere, that's all. I doubt they really think they're going to tempt experienced painters away from other ranges.
No worries, the GW airbrush will be a "plasma gun" in shape.
With an air backpack and the compressed air "charges" you plug in.
The special safety glasses and mask will look like "Tempestus" gear.
Cosplay has never been so productive and expensive!
I have every Vallejo airbrush paint and yet am super excited to see these. If the work unthinned on Iwata BH/CH size nozzles, they will replace 75% if my airbrush paint, even though I love Vallejo Air.
Why?
I HATE how many colors have no match between model color and model air (like, 75% of the colors). Like a particular shade of red or blue? Too bad the paintbrush version is just a little darker and has a different satin to the finish. There are a couple where paints have the same names, but the colors are different!!Game air/color is much better, but some some of those (like moon yellow) have insanely bad coverage. The other issue is that nobody local stocks game air, and I must sometimes wait 3+ weeks for it.
OTOH, I really prefer droppers fir airbrush.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, one other thing -- I was just told that the Vallejo distributor is no longer taking back defective paints, so if this happens, I must contact Vallejo myself. That's a huge turn-off, though I have only ever had 3 or 4 defective paints out of a few hundred.
I'll be getting the Zandri Dust as that's the only paint that I've never been able to find a suitable replacement for. I've tried every alternative but they never end up the same, which is annoying as all hell, especially when the Zandri Dust paint is absurdly thick and needs a stupid amount of airbrush thinner and then takes ages to get cleaned out of my airbrush gun!
Talys wrote: I have every Vallejo airbrush paint and yet am super excited to see these. If the work unthinned on Iwata BH/CH size nozzles, they will replace 75% if my airbrush paint, even though I love Vallejo Air.
Why?
Because you would buy a partly decomposed gerbil corpse if it was in a box with GW stamped on the cover.
There we go, answered that one for you
Seriously though, interesting point about quantities. That might well catch out some air-brushing newbies who get a couple of squads in and then realise they are a couple of pots short.
Talys wrote: I have every Vallejo airbrush paint and yet am super excited to see these. If the work unthinned on Iwata BH/CH size nozzles, they will replace 75% if my airbrush paint, even though I love Vallejo Air.
Why?
Because you would buy a partly decomposed gerbil corpse if it was in a box with GW stamped on the cover.
There we go, answered that one for you
Seriously though, interesting point about quantities. That might well catch out some air-brushing newbies who get a couple of squads in and then realise they are a couple of pots short.
Why not quote the next paragraph, too... Vallejo paints not having color matches between Model Air and Model color, even though they both have a bazillion colors is bizarre and extremely user-unfriendly. >.<
Yes, I'm capapble of mixing in some color to get it "close enough" for a lot of models, but no, I can't do that on the side of a vehicle. More to the point, there is not a single good reason that I've ever heard for them to not have color-matched in the hairy brush version to all of their airbrush paints.
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Talizvar wrote: Good point by Talys: I may grab a couple and see how well the paints match.
It really is what you are used to.
GW paint for me is easy because I used so much of it.
I switched to artist paints Liquidex and have never been disappointed but mixes up ok for airgun.
Both the liquitex medium and the Vallejo airbrush thinner work great for mixing GW paint pots into stuff you can shoot through an airbrush, IMO. The biggest problem for me is drying time. It dries more quickly in the airbrush, and is harder to clean out. Not an issue on large nozzles like 0.50, 0.35; but sometimes an issue in 0.30, and a waste of time in in 0.20.
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Buttery Commissar wrote: I'm slightly surprised that they launched these so shortly after the FW line.
Well, these mirror the GW paint line, whereas the FW ones are strange though cool colors. I don't believe the FW ones have hairy brush matched paints, though...
I have been using vallejo as well but certain colours seem hard to match and some of them have a shiny finish that means more messing about, that last part could well be user error ! but I am looking forward to having the GW colours already to go straight into my airbrush without messing about thinning them down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its a shame they are sticking to the same bottles though.
I have been using vallejo as well but certain colours seem hard to match and some of them have a shiny finish that means more messing about, that last part could well be user error ! but I am looking forward to having the GW colours already to go straight into my airbrush without messing about thinning them down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its a shame they are sticking to the same bottles though.
The knowledge half of my brain wants to say the shiny finish is because you didn't shake it enough. But the experience half of my brain will tell you that it's happened to me, too, after shaking the airbrush paint for damn near an eternity (suspecting separation because it's sat on the shelf a while). The third half, the creative half, doesn't want to worry about weird s*** happening when airbrushing fine details at the end of a 40 hour project.
It's also worth noting that Vallejo paints (all of them) separate like crazy compared to GW and P3.
If my local store gets them in, and if the price isn't too bad I'll pick up a couple. I don't have an airbrush, but their thinner consistency should make them good for highlights right out of the pot (I hope).
Buttery Commissar wrote: I'm slightly surprised that they launched these so shortly after the FW line.
The FW line is specific to the Horus Heresy, though.
Of course, the real question is, are they the same paint formula as FW's airbrush paints, or different? I somehow suspect the FW paints may be of a better quality, since they make the stuff they want.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I'm slightly surprised that they launched these so shortly after the FW line.
The FW line is specific to the Horus Heresy, though.
Of course, the real question is, are they the same paint formula as FW's airbrush paints, or different? I somehow suspect the FW paints may be of a better quality, since they make the stuff they want.
The FW line also includes colors for the Death Korps.
Basically, what I was told by someone from FW is that they had colors made to match the various mixes that their painters have used.
I HATE how many colors have no match between model color and model air (like, 75% of the colors). Like a particular shade of red or blue? Too bad the paintbrush version is just a little darker and has a different satin to the finish. There are a couple where paints have the same names, but the colors are different!!Game air/color is much better, but some some of those (like moon yellow) have insanely bad coverage. The other issue is that nobody local stocks game air, and I must sometimes wait 3+ weeks for it.
Sorry I don't understand this, why don't you just use the same model air paint you use for the airbrush for your regular brush? I use model air for both airbrush and regular brush.
OTGW paints were the only thing I bought regularly from them until I found out about Vallejo airbrush ready paints (about the same time I got my first airbrush), I would've given them a try if 1, they were dropper bottles and 2, If GW didn't release the abortion knon as AoS (I refuse to give them any of my business for the time being).
I think people are missing the main problem with these. It's not the lack of droppers that you will end up using a pipette with an airbrush (which is annoying) it's that GW paints slowly dry out over time... what the hell is the point in buying a paint that has been thinned for airbrushing when in 2 months it's changed consistency and become too thick?
Either way, they left out Rakarth Flesh which is the only colour I would have been interested in.
I HATE how many colors have no match between model color and model air (like, 75% of the colors). Like a particular shade of red or blue? Too bad the paintbrush version is just a little darker and has a different satin to the finish. There are a couple where paints have the same names, but the colors are different!!Game air/color is much better, but some some of those (like moon yellow) have insanely bad coverage. The other issue is that nobody local stocks game air, and I must sometimes wait 3+ weeks for it.
Sorry I don't understand this, why don't you just use the same model air paint you use for the airbrush for your regular brush? I use model air for both airbrush and regular brush.
OTGW paints were the only thing I bought regularly from them until I found out about Vallejo airbrush ready paints (about the same time I got my first airbrush), I would've given them a try if 1, they were dropper bottles and 2, If GW didn't release the abortion knon as AoS (I refuse to give them any of my business for the time being).
It's easy to thin a paint, but almost impossible to thicken one. Airbrush paint has much too much flow to work well on a paintbrush (presuming that having it run is a bad thing). If I were permitted only one, I would give up the airbrush paint, and just thin regular paint myself.
But really, it makes no sense that there is a model air and model color, both with tons of paints or the same approximate colors, just... a little different.
yup, Vallejo Model Air Metal paints work just fine with my hairy sticks...
i look forward to getting my hands on the FW airbrush paints for my hairy sticks, since the Legion colors are so specific, but these new Citadel ones will be a no-go...
i really, really don't like the pots that Citadel is using, and will stick to the P3 style pots that i love...
Talys wrote: It's easy to thin a paint, but almost impossible to thicken one. Airbrush paint has much too much flow to work well on a paintbrush (presuming that having it run is a bad thing). If I were permitted only one, I would give up the airbrush paint, and just thin regular paint myself.
But really, it makes no sense that there is a model air and model color, both with tons of paints or the same approximate colors, just... a little different.
I've never had any problem hairy brush painting any of the model air range, never had one that I thought was too thin or had too much flow for hairy brush painting. In fact most the time I find myself thinning them even further. I don't even have a regular black or white at the moment because I've been getting on just fine using the model air black and white for hairy brush painting (since my ceramite white dried out).
The only thing I don't love about hairy brush painting with the model air range is that they tend to be on the glossy side of satin. It's fine for airbrushing because when you airbrush it tends to come out more matte than when you hairy brush paint. But it's not a huge problem and usually gets fixed when I use a wash/filter/varnish.
For the most part I'd rather have subtly different colours in the model air range anyway, it just gives me more choice since I can easily airbrush non-airbrush paints if I need anyway, the only one I might have liked was Rakarth Flesh because that's the main colour of my entire Tyranid army and airbrushing base paints can sometimes be a bit annoying.
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jah-joshua wrote: yup, Vallejo Model Air Metal paints work just fine with my hairy sticks...
i look forward to getting my hands on the FW airbrush paints for my hairy sticks, since the Legion colors are so specific, but these new Citadel ones will be a no-go... i really, really don't like the pots that Citadel is using, and will stick to the P3 style pots that i love...
cheers jah
I think you can buy the P3 style pots pretty cheap if you ever wanted to swap them over (though it is a bit of a pain in the arse).
I like my paints out of the pot a little thicker, then I thin them to the viscosity that I want.
For example, when doing fine details or even edge highlighting, I like my paint thicker to improve adhesion. For drybrushing terrain (stone, metal) or dirt, I want my paints really thick, because I want to leave texture.
For some colors, like blue, I barely thin them a lot at all (Jah should like this, my favorite blues are P3 Cyngar Base & Highlight ). For other colors, like yellow or white, I need them really thin to go on nicely.
Also, for performing glazes (which I use a lot of), I want to start with a thicker paint, and add medium, instead of starting with an airbrush paint, which is already quite thin.
For covering just an errant brushstroke, I don't want super-thin paint, because I don't want a million layers to cover my little black mark.
Two other minor things -- airbrush paints take longer to dry (which can be both good and bad), and I use a wet palette, and airbrush paint goes *everywhere* if you leave it for any amount of time (it bleeds like crazy).
YMMV, but you also get more out of a bottle of paint that has more pigment and less medium, as water is, you know, free. Plus, lots of mediums for the difficult colors, like Flo-Aid, is really, really cheap compared to paint. Even Vallejo airbrush thinner, in the large sizes, is pretty cheap (much cheaper than Vallejo paint). You can make a GW paint pot go really, really far -- I dilute each color a little differently, but for Mephiston Red, for example, my mix is 3:1 of thinner to paint.
Talys wrote: I have every Vallejo airbrush paint and yet am super excited to see these. If the work unthinned on Iwata BH/CH size nozzles, they will replace 75% if my airbrush paint, even though I love Vallejo Air.
Why?
I HATE how many colors have no match between model color and model air (like, 75% of the colors). Like a particular shade of red or blue? Too bad the paintbrush version is just a little darker and has a different satin to the finish. There are a couple where paints have the same names, but thse colors are different!!Game air/color is much better, but some some of those (like moon yellow) have insanely bad coverage. The other issue is that nobody local stocks game air, and I must sometimes wait 3+ weeks for it.
OTOH, I really prefer droppers fir airbrush.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, one other thing -- I was just told that the Vallejo distributor is no longer taking back defective paints, so if this happens, I must contact Vallejo myself. That's a huge turn-off, though I have only ever had 3 or 4 defective paints out of a few hundred.
The difference in shade between model/game colour and model/game air is probably because vallejo using slightly different pigments for some of the air lines. Note that some model colour bottles are marked with "do not spray". Some pigments are simply not very healthy when sprayed. It is also worth noting that vallejo being a serious paint manufacturer actually publishes their material safety data sheets, and also are open with the contents of their paints. Remember that even if paints are considered non toxic when brushed, they might be a different animal when sprayed.
Jorny, that sounds very reasonable, but if that's so, why do most game air and game color paints correlate, but not model air and model color?
Some of them are really dumb, too, like camouflage shades of green and grey. I mean, another paint exists , but it is just slightly off, but slightly enough that you can't use it to fix little airbrush errors, small chips or tightening a camo pattern without ending up worse than where you started.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Never has basecoating all those tanks and Space Marines been so easy!"
... or so ungodly expensive either!
Citadel Air. BAHAHAHAH!
I was working in a Hobby shop while this and the spray gun were available to buy, and the paint of evening mentioning them to potential customers was horrible.
I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.
Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.
It's easy to thin a paint, but almost impossible to thicken one.
Nah.. it's easy.
You just have to put the paint in any of the paintpot styles GW has made since the late 90's and it'll be nice and thick in a few weeks.
I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.
Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.
Then... why does Vallejo sell Model Color and Game Color, and why are they better sellers than Model Air and Game Air?
If you are right and airbrush paints are just plain superior to nonairbrush formulations, the nonairbrush formulations should just stop selling. Among other things, Airbrush paints contain far less pigments and are cheaper to produce (just look at the prices of Airbrush thinners and mediums). So obviously, I'm not the only person in the world that buys nonairbrush paints
I challenge you to write fine, double-lined letters like this with a runny paint like Vallejo Air Black (this was a topic AllSeeingSkink made a while back) :
Spoiler:
But... I mean... guys, use what you want. I'm not trying to convert anyone; I'm trying to explain what I use and why. Whatever you're comfortable with and gets you the best results, that you enjoy -- that's what you should use.
RoninXiC wrote: WOw Talys,... your challenge is nothing but an insult to all the painters using non gw colors for decades. Seriously.
I said, Vallejo AIR Black. Seriously, try it. I have tried it myself. All you get is smudged poo.
That isn't written using GW colors, dude. It's P3 Thamar Black, thinned with Lahmian Medium. I happen to NOT be a fan of Abbadon black. I like P3 Thamar Black best and Model Color Black better. I don't even go through 1 pot of Abbadon black in three years (and about 5 pots of Thamar black every year).
All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.
B) The same paints are used on the boxart, so you aren't "cheated."
C) They are actually very high quality paints.
Besides... Vallejo Model Air hasn't even been around for decades I don't think so, anyhow. My hobby shop certainly hasn't carried it for DECADES, as in 20+ years.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Nah.. it's easy.
You just have to put the paint in any of the paintpot styles GW has made since the late 90's and it'll be nice and thick in a few weeks.
It hurts how much truth is in that "joke" comment from personal experience.
I bought a bunch of eye-dropper bottles and switched all the GW paints to those.
I swear they pack desiccant in the cap.
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Talys wrote: Besides... Vallejo Model Air hasn't even been around for decades I don't think so, anyhow. My hobby shop certainly hasn't carried it for DECADES, as in 20+ years.
Trying hard to remember when I came to my senses and started using acrylics rather than enamel paints.
Was it decades?
Talys wrote: Besides... Vallejo Model Air hasn't even been around for decades I don't think so, anyhow. My hobby shop certainly hasn't carried it for DECADES, as in 20+ years.
Trying hard to remember when I came to my senses and started using acrylics rather than enamel paints. Was it decades?
Oh, I've definitely used water-based acrylics since the late 80s. But not Airbrush acrylics, and specifically, Vallejo Model AIR (as opposed to Model COLOR) which is what I was talking about. I remember back in the 80s, the people using airbrushes didn't even have acrylic paint thinner back then -- they used all sorts of other things to thin their paints for airbrush.
I dunno why a bunch of people are getting confused by the product lines.
Vallejo has:
- Model COLOR and Model AIR. Most of the colors don't match at all; some of the colors don't match well, even on some of the paints with the same name. The part numbers also don't correleate.
- Game COLOR and Game AIR. Most of the colors DO match. They also have matching numbers, such that a 72.721 is Magic Blue Game Air, and 72.021 is Magic Blue Game Color.
Model Air and Game Air have Black caps. Game Color has Grey caps. Model color has white caps.
There are also Panzer Aces, but let's not go there
@Talys: i've been using Vallejo Air Metals for about 5 years...
i think they are only a year or two older than that...
the full line of Model Air colors, as they stand now, are about two years old, as far as i remember, since i recall Angel being excited about his set on Facebook in 2013-ish...
@Wonderwolf: i may not be the norm, but i have been painting for 30 years, and many people i know have been painted just as long, if not longer...
it's not like miniature painting is a new hobby...
it's been around for a long time...
newer painters can progress a lot faster these days, though, as there are a ton of classes and tutorials now...
@Talizvar: i used Testors enamel on model cars and aircraft from about 1980-1985, then switched to minis and Ral Partha acrylics from '85-'90...
i used Citadel acrylics from 1990-2005, and switched to P3 in '05...
that's 30 years of using acrylic...
man, time flies!!!
Well, the Model Color line dates to sometime in the '80's to maybe the early '90's according to the FAQ on Vallejo's website:
2.1. Who invented Model Color?
Spanish model-painters, having worked with solvent based paints, began to use some of our fine-arts acrylics in the 1980ties; they eventually suggested changes and modifications in our formulas, and we designed a product in accordance with their needs. After some years of development, this was to become Model Color. The product has a complicated chemical composition, and formulas are revised constantly in accord with new developments in technology, availability of new resins and raw materials, changes in pigments, and updated regulations and environmental concerns.
And as to why some of the bottles of Model Color say 'Do Not Spray':
2.11. I just purchased some bottles of Model Color, and on two of them the label says: Do not spray. The other bottles do not have this advice. Is this an omission? Should this be on all the Model Color bottles?
No, this phrase or a pictogram of an airbrush crossed out, is printed only on some labels in compliance with California Proposition 65, which requires this instruction for all colors which may contain a trace of Cadmium. A total of 38 of the 180 colors of the Model Color line carry this advice ; for more information please see 15.Health and Safety, also see our web page www.acrylicosvallejo.com under Health and Safety and Pigment content per color.
- Model COLOR and Model AIR. Most of the colors don't match at all; some of the colors don't match well, even on some of the paints with the same name. The part numbers also don't correleate.
- Game COLOR and Game AIR. Most of the colors DO match. They also have matching numbers, such that a 72.721 is Magic Blue Game Air, and 72.021 is Magic Blue Game Color.
Model Air and Game Air have Black caps. Game Color has Grey caps. Model color has white caps.
There are also Panzer Aces, but let's not go there
Model Colour has been around for a good while, and since Vallejo probably want to keep that line consistent they haven't changed the pigments mixes much. When they created model air they couldn't use the same pigments so therefore there might be slight differences. And since the paints also use different mediums, that probably also affects the final tone. They maybe should have changed the names though.
It will be interesting to see how exact the GW paints are.
@jorny - The simple colors could be for the reasons you describe. To pick a couple of examples, it's not like they aren't going to make something yellow or red --
- "Red" has an RLM code of 33 in model color, and RLM 23 in model air. Which would be fine if there were ALSO a 23 or 33 in the other one. - "Yellow" in model color uses Federated Standard color codes, with FS313655. in model color it's FS33655. And again, no matching equivalents.
But it's not even limited to the simple colors. For example:
- "Medium Sea Grey" in Model color is FS36270 Medium Sea Grey in Model Air is FS36231.
Like..... huh? The colors are really close. But they are not close enough that if you paint one over the other, you won't notice that it looks strangely different, like a mistake. As you said, at least they could have called one, "Medium Stone Grey" or something, and then it wouldn't be confusing to the poor fool who thinks they are doing something wrong when they try to cover one with the other, the first time around (that would be me!).
Make no mistake. If GW does the same thing with its airbrush colors, I will be just as peeved
dragqueeninspace wrote:From the image it looks like the thinner is in a standard GW pot. That does not look like good value
Yep, that would be lousy value. keep in mind Vallejo also has a small size that is terrible value, but they have larger sizes that pretty much everyone buys instead.
Ghaz wrote:Vallejo does have a list of Equivalencies, including Model Color to Model Air.
Yes, but that's really my point. They're close, as in if you paint two models with the two pains, they'll easily pass for the same color. But they're not close, as in, if you use the two colors on the same panel (for example to touch up after a wash), they look messed up. Plus, they have a different sheen, which makes it look even worse.
As others have said, you are better off just using the airbrush paint on a hairy brush.
incidentally, I think, GW paint with Vallejo thinner has a really nice, matte, but not ultramatte finish.
I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.
Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.
Then... why does Vallejo sell Model Color and Game Color, and why are they better sellers than Model Air and Game Air?
To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting
Though I do wonder if a lot of your dislike of hairy brush painting the air range comes from using a wet palette? I never try to use the air paints on a wet palette, always just do them on a regular dry palette, I could imagine the much thinner paints are more prone to separating from the binder on a wet palette.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting
Plenty of people brush on their model air and now game air paints. They're just pre-thinned with their thinning medium, which is also the same thing they use in their surface primer that makes it amazing to brush on.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting
Plenty of people brush on their model air and now game air paints. They're just pre-thinned with their thinning medium, which is also the same thing they use in their surface primer that makes it amazing to brush on.
I know plenty of people do.... if you rewind to the previous page you'll note that I said I myself frequently hairy brush paint with the air range.... however I think most people would be put off by them largely because they are marketed as an airbrush range. I have spoken to several people at my local hobby store who simply assumed you couldn't hairy brush paint with them without even trying.
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.
B) The same paints are used on the boxart, so you aren't "cheated."
C) They are actually very high quality paints.
I have to agree on all points. I have not tried every paint range in the world, and I am _really_ not the world's best painter by any degree. However, I have tried some other ranges and I keep coming back to GW.
They are as expensive as hell, but I am getting the results I want from them and have become very comfortable with them.
But as someone else said earlier, work with what you are comfortable with...
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that: A) Warhammer TV has them. B) The same paints are used on the boxart, so you aren't "cheated."
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure GW mixes a lot of the paints up that they use on studio models. Obviously the stuff they use in painting tutorials is (or should be) what comes out of the pot, but in the past I know GW have often used mixed paints for the actual studio armies that get used in photographs.
Not to mention the fact they often photoshop images (or use different lighting maybe?), subtly changing the colours.
C) They are actually very high quality paints.
Depends what you call "high quality" I suppose. Compared to cheapo art store acrylics designed for painting on canvas? Maybe. But they are average quality compared to all the other acrylics designed for miniatures and scale models (vallejo, P3, reaper, army painter, tamiya, gunze and humbrol are all the ones I've personally tried, there's several others I haven't tried).
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Though I do wonder if a lot of your dislike of hairy brush painting the air range comes from using a wet palette? I never try to use the air paints on a wet palette, always just do them on a regular dry palette, I could imagine the much thinner paints are more prone to separating from the binder on a wet palette.
Yes, absolutely you are right. I never use a wet palette with airbrush paints, because they essentially ruin the wet palette (they just spread 4" in every direction and all mix together). I just think a wet palette is one of the most wonderful painting tools, as it keeps paint at a similar consistency for a very long time. In comparison, putting paint on a dry palette, whether airbrush or otherwise, causes the consistency to change as it dries out.
Now, that's not to say I don't use a dry palette. I actually paint with a wet palette, flat dry palette, and cupped palettes (for glazes, custom washes, and mixed colors). But for 80% of my non-drybrush painting, I enjoy a wet palette.
-Loki- wrote:Plenty of people brush on their model air and now game air paints. They're just pre-thinned with their thinning medium, which is also the same thing they use in their surface primer that makes it amazing to brush on.
This is not really accurate. The primers are polyurethane based (which is dangerous & toxic to inhale), which is what causes the self-levelling. Like, I just mean: Vallejo black surface primer is not black model air + Vallejo thinner!
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.
This is a huge advantage for people learning to paint.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure GW mixes a lot of the paints up that they use on studio models. Obviously the stuff they use in painting tutorials is (or should be) what comes out of the pot, but in the past I know GW have often used mixed paints for the actual studio armies that get used in photographs.
Not to mention the fact they often photoshop images (or use different lighting maybe?), subtly changing the colours.
On the tutorials, you can actually see Duncan crack open the pot and put it on the model, so unless the pot has some custom color... Before the current paint line, they mixed paints all the time. Then, there's an overlap period of about a year, because not all the stuff they produce was done before the new paints were out. But, MOST things created in the era of the current GW paints, that is used for box and codex art seem to be out of the pot, no mixing.
There are exceptions, almost all character models (and a large number finecast), like the Blood Angels Codex Sanguinor and Astorath (which are different from the blister art).
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
C) They are actually very high quality paints.
Depends what you call "high quality" I suppose. Compared to cheapo art store acrylics designed for painting on canvas? Maybe. But they are average quality compared to all the other acrylics designed for miniatures and scale models (vallejo, P3, reaper, army painter, tamiya, gunze and humbrol are all the ones I've personally tried, there's several others I haven't tried).
I would separate out all the alcohol based ones at the end, because they're just really different (though not a reflection on quality). I would agree that Vallejo, P3, reaper, AP are all of similar quality as GW, but they don't all work the same way. If you get used to one paint, and are happy with it... really, that's the most important, IMO.
That being said: every paint range has annoying colors, that are sometimes not evident in other paint ranges. I'll give you a real example. P3 Thamar black is a really beautiful paint. Goes on smooth, covers really well. I think it's superior to Abbadon Black in every way. But P3 Battlefield Brown? I think it's a poor sibling to GW Rhinox Hide -- which goes on smooth, and covers really well.
Unfortunately, a lot of this is also just preference, so there's no way of knowing what you'll like without actually using the various paints. No magic bullet.
MongooseMatt wrote:I have to agree on all points. I have not tried every paint range in the world, and I am _really_ not the world's best painter by any degree. However, I have tried some other ranges and I keep coming back to GW.
Yeah, I have an awful lot of paints, and use mostly GW, with notable exceptions for a few core colors.
Also, GW Technical Paints are really awesome (and unavailable from any other vendor), as are drybrush compounds, especially Necron Compound, and Lahmian Medium.
@Talys: i've never had any kind of coverage problem with P3 Battlefield Brown...
it is a lovely, smooth color to work with...
it gets almost as much use as my Thamar Black, and is the base for my golds, leathers, and bone...
it is one of my essential "go-to" colors...
anyway, it IS interesting to see GW branching out with Technical paints, and now airbrush paints...
i applaud them for expanding the range, and trying different things...
jah-joshua wrote: @Talys: i've never had any kind of coverage problem with P3 Battlefield Brown...
it is a lovely, smooth color to work with...
it gets almost as much use as my Thamar Black, and is the base for my golds, leathers, and bone...
it is one of my essential "go-to" colors...
anyway, it IS interesting to see GW branching out with Technical paints, and now airbrush paints...
i applaud them for expanding the range, and trying different things...
cheers
jah
Maybe it's my bottle (I've only ever bought one). I'll buy another to test it out -- thanks!
@Talys: Thamar Black, Greatcoat Grey, Sanguine Base, and Battlefield Brown are the four colors i replace most often, because they get used on nearly every model, and i've never had a bad batch, unlike some of the metals:(...
i am slowly getting more tempted to try out some of the Technical paints, especially the Martian Ironearth...
that red-brown crackle is sexy...
not feeling tempted by these airbrush paints, but FW has my attention with theirs...
it will be interesting to see if they are a return to the quality and consistency of my original Citadel paints, which are still fresh almost 25 years later!!!
@jah - yeah, those, or the GW equivalents, are some of my most-used paints too Like you, I put a dark brown under all gold/bronze metallics, but my Battlefield Brown just goes on, well, more like an airbrush paint (transparent, too runny). Will grab another, and hope for better. One problem is that the couple of stores that stock P3 paint don't move a lot of it, so I have always suspected that it gets quite old.
Blood for the Blood God is an amazing technical paint (that just makes painting blood splatters super easy), and typhus corrosion (possibly with drybrush after) is a quick alternative to weathering powders if you don't want to have to seal -- especially since you don't use airbrush, I think. The demo videos are great to explain the application, too.
Kepora wrote: All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.
So to be clear, I'm 100% pro dropper when it comes to airbrush. But....
When I airbrush terrain or a large vehicle, I do *exactly* what GW suggests: after mixing non airbrush paint with thinner in a mixing bottle, I pour it into the airbrush cup, and when I'm done, if there's any left over, I pour it back. In this instance, the large neck of a mixing bottle is WAY easier than into a Vallejo dropper.
The problem is, 90% of the time, I want, like, 3 drops of paint. And then, I just say screw it if there is any left over; and just flush it.
Kepora wrote: All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.
So to be clear, I'm 100% pro dropper when it comes to airbrush. But....
When I airbrush terrain or a large vehicle, I do *exactly* what GW suggests: after mixing non airbrush paint with thinner in a mixing bottle, I pour it into the airbrush cup, and when I'm done, if there's any left over, I pour it back. In this instance, the large neck of a mixing bottle is WAY easier than into a Vallejo dropper.
The problem is, 90% of the time, I want, like, 3 drops of paint. And then, I just say screw it if there is any left over; and just flush it.
Amen to that; it's exactly what I do! Definitely easier then trying to suck paint back into droppers, and far more effective!
Kepora wrote: All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.
So to be clear, I'm 100% pro dropper when it comes to airbrush. But....
When I airbrush terrain or a large vehicle, I do *exactly* what GW suggests: after mixing non airbrush paint with thinner in a mixing bottle, I pour it into the airbrush cup, and when I'm done, if there's any left over, I pour it back. In this instance, the large neck of a mixing bottle is WAY easier than into a Vallejo dropper.
The problem is, 90% of the time, I want, like, 3 drops of paint. And then, I just say screw it if there is any left over; and just flush it.
I tend to just mix in the paint cup. Put in a few drops of thinner first then the paint (so you don't get unthinned paint down the passage) and then stir it with an old brush, backflow it a couple of times while mixing to avoid unmixed paint in the paint passage and then just spray for 1-2 seconds on a blank sheet before actually going to the model.
Mixing it in a separate cup just seems like a waste as a lot of it ends up on the sides. The only time I bother to mix it in a separate cup is for a *very* large vehicle like the 1/24 WW2 fighter I'm currently working on, because for that I'm using more paint than comfortably fits in my AB cup and I'm spraying for long enough on each colour that the paint separates before I'm done, so I mix up a big batch when I start and top up my AB as I go.
Desubot wrote: No dropper for an airbrush? nope nope nope nope nope.
I bet they are going to try to hawk a "new" siphon flamethrower that attaches to those pots. using Fine canned air. at 40 bucks a can.
Cynicism aside. im interested in the metallic as most AB metallic i know are FANTASTIC.
All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.
Im aware of the dropper. its not my thing. i also end up mixing a LOT of in between colors with the previous ones so returning the paint back is useless (though very helpful from talys post)
Iv had bad accidents from pouring straight from the pot to cup.
Usually the issue is that little pallet thing on the underside of the cap that has a dollop of paint on it that if you dont notice will miss the cup right onto your pants :(
What?!! You're not seriously trying to tell us that 3rd parties weren't informed well in advance so they could manage inventory and cash flow to allow for investment in e new range, mik?
Limited release for paint is slowed.... What's someone to do once they run out, LOL.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: What?!! You're not seriously trying to tell us that 3rd parties weren't informed well in advance so they could manage inventory and cash flow to allow for investment in e new range, mik?
Never!
To be fair, the cash flow really should not be an issue. 6-packs of paint are around $15 cost? Tines 51 is less than $800, and once people start painting an army with airbrush paints (land raiders, void ravens, etc) not to mention terrain pieces, they'll pop through those pots like they're going out of style.
The ratio of airbrush to regular paint I go through (for instance, if I'm lazy and just basecoat terrain with Vallejo model air) is nuts.
I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.
Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.
Then... why does Vallejo sell Model Color and Game Color, and why are they better sellers than Model Air and Game Air?
If you are right and airbrush paints are just plain superior to nonairbrush formulations, the nonairbrush formulations should just stop selling. Among other things, Airbrush paints contain far less pigments and are cheaper to produce (just look at the prices of Airbrush thinners and mediums). So obviously, I'm not the only person in the world that buys nonairbrush paints
I challenge you to write fine, double-lined letters like this with a runny paint like Vallejo Air Black (this was a topic AllSeeingSkink made a while back) :
Spoiler:
But... I mean... guys, use what you want. I'm not trying to convert anyone; I'm trying to explain what I use and why. Whatever you're comfortable with and gets you the best results, that you enjoy -- that's what you should use.
Really? I have to manually add the implied "for me"'s and "IMO"'s to everything? Fine.
Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because [FOR ME] it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes [IN MY OPINION], particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.
Evidently there are people who prefer working with thick paint(or specific instances or techniques where thicker paint is desirable), or who prefer starting from a thicker base and thinning manually, so it's hardly surprising that other ranges still exist. I'm going to want to see a source for this assertion there's less pigment in airbrush paints though, because I've literally never heard anyone say that before.
I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.
Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.
Then... why does Vallejo sell Model Color and Game Color, and why are they better sellers than Model Air and Game Air?
To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting
Though I do wonder if a lot of your dislike of hairy brush painting the air range comes from using a wet palette? I never try to use the air paints on a wet palette, always just do them on a regular dry palette, I could imagine the much thinner paints are more prone to separating from the binder on a wet palette.
That's not been my experience, I use a wet palette exclusively, and I've never had any brand of paint separate once it was already mixed and out of the bottle. Then again, I use agitators in all my paints so they're thoroughly mixed before I start working.
Talys wrote: I have every Vallejo airbrush paint and yet am super excited to see these. If the work unthinned on Iwata BH/CH size nozzles, they will replace 75% if my airbrush paint, even though I love Vallejo Air.
Why?
I HATE how many colors have no match between model color and model air (like, 75% of the colors). Like a particular shade of red or blue? Too bad the paintbrush version is just a little darker and has a different satin to the finish. There are a couple where paints have the same names, but the colors are different!!Game air/color is much better, but some some of those (like moon yellow) have insanely bad coverage. The other issue is that nobody local stocks game air, and I must sometimes wait 3+ weeks for it.
OTOH, I really prefer droppers fir airbrush.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, one other thing -- I was just told that the Vallejo distributor is no longer taking back defective paints, so if this happens, I must contact Vallejo myself. That's a huge turn-off, though I have only ever had 3 or 4 defective paints out of a few hundred.
Dude, if you think GW is going to not have discrepancies between their air and non air ranges, you're high. Vallejo Game Air and Game Colours are ~allegedly~ better matched to each other than the model range.
kb_lock wrote: Dude, if you think GW is going to not have discrepancies between their air and non air ranges, you're high. Vallejo Game Air and Game Colours are ~allegedly~ better matched to each other than the model range.
It's not alleged at all
I have the entire Game Air and Game Color range -- every one of them -- and the match is a ZILLION times better than model air/model color, except where a match doesn't exist (which is a little maddening, but anyways). Electric Blue on Air really, really close to Electric Blue on Color. There is a slightly different finish (so you WILL see a brushstroke of one against the other), but this disappears if you varnish the model, or coat the whole area with medium.
However, it's not possible to just paint using Game Air/Color (unless you really enjoy mixing, in which case the whole conversation about color matching is moot); you have to dip into the Model pool. Even for such basic things as shades of grey.
Army Painter's sprays and paints are identical matches too. I actually think these matches are REALLY well done, especially considering the price and the convenience for people wanting to do relatively quick armies.
And in GW's favor, a Mephiston Red spray is 100% the same color as Mephiston Red paint.
Stunningly bad move GW - talk about another example of not understanding your customers at all.
In regards to the "painting with airbrush paints" I have had mixed experiences.
Model air - paints just fine with a brush. .
Game air - paints just fine with a brush.
Golden airbrush paints - paints fine with a brush for most applications.
Testors aztek - most paints do not cover well with a brush.
Allclad - do not work with a brush. Speciality metallic laquer paints.
Minitaire - hit or miss on brush painting. Some do not cover well at all with a brush.
Createx - hit or miss on brush painting - the black and white, cover very well. Some of the opalescent colors do not.
Regarding talys experience with game/model air, and non air matching - I can say that most of my results are very good.
However, I can also say I do not use the entire ranges of the non air paints - therefore, there may be colors that do not match, and I have just not tried them yet.
davethepak wrote: Regarding talys experience with game/model air, and non air matching - I can say that most of my results are very good. However, I can also say I do not use the entire ranges of the non air paints - therefore, there may be colors that do not match, and I have just not tried them yet.
It's worth noting that I'm very picky I will not accept 99.7% color match... it needs to look seamless, because if I'm going to spend 40-100 (or more) hours on a tank, the last thing I want is the side to look like there's a brushstroke on it. I'd rather strip the panel and redo 10 hours than have a visible brushstroke, if I can't fudge and work around it (battle damage, decal, etc.).
Also, on the color match bit with model color, the actual color code from Vallejo is different, (like Federated Standard codes), even though the names of the paints are identical, so there would actually be a bigger issue if they DID match (since FS codes are standardized colors)
Talys wrote: It's worth noting that I'm very picky I will not accept 99.7% color match... it needs to look seamless
You know what, it's that exact reason why I don't care that Model Air and Model Colour don't match.... because when you spray a colour it usually looks different to when you brush a colour anyway. Airbrushing a colour gives it a certain grain and sheen, so when you hairy brush paint over it, it stands out even if the colour was a 100% match out of the bottle.
so I do my damnedest to make sure if I'm using a colour in my airbrush I don't have to come back and hairy brush paint the same colour anyway (masking and whatnot) or if I do that it's done in a way to intentionally add depth to the colour (as airbrushing can sometimes look a bit flat) in which case I want the colours to look subtly different anyway.
Yeah as far as bad GW moves go, this isn't stunning. Just the pots are ridiculous, other than that it is good, though I won't be buying any (price > pots > existing stock)
I'm slightly surprised that they launched these so shortly after the 
Definitely easier then trying to suck paint back into droppers, and far more effective!