Okay, about as balanced of a super-heavy Tau walker with 1,000,000+ guns can be, but still! I honestly was worried it'd be worse.
Weird to see a T6 Gargantuan though. Maybe the Mawloc and Trygon will get the GC treatment?
EDIT; Dman, looks like 8 wounds, not 6. It's not likely to be turn-1'd in regular games, though that is the goal - kill this turn 1 before it goes into "everything must die!" mode.
If you can keep it in cover (which is easy because it is a gargantuan creature), then it is pretty survivable with 8 wounds. It will only really have problems when high strength, high RoF weapons get spammed.
It will die quickly in assault, but if your opponent is assaulting this thing, then you are playing wrong. (Or possibly in a really different and inventive way which will surprise me.)
I think it looks like a powerful tool for high point games where you can field units to help protect this beast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shouldn't all this be in the news and rumours section?
I'm with Dman here. It's easy to alpha strike that thing off of the board with it being 3+ and T6. Maybe it'll get some buffs with the Tau Decurion formation?
chaos0xomega wrote: Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.
drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save
Interceptor says hi to Drop Pods.
Necrons can't shoot it turn one they have to get into range.
Eldar probably could kill it in turn one, if they can get in range (it outranges all of their guns I think).
chaos0xomega wrote: Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.
drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save
Drop pod armies destroy gunlines. That is the rock-paper-scissors nature of 40k, not the fault of the model. Good deployment tactics (bubblewrap) can help negate some of the damage done by drop pod armies and protect help preserve this model so that it can retaliate. Eldar destroy almost everything in 40k at the moment except for the cheesiest of cheeses, so no surprise there. How do necrons destroy this? I really am not sure how that happens.
I agree that this should have a 2+ armour save. It is a giant suit of armour. Except for a tiny guy somewhere in there, it is all armour.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.
drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save
Interceptor says hi to Drop Pods.
Necrons can't shoot it turn one they have to get into range.
Eldar probably could kill it in turn one, if they can get in range (it outranges all of their guns I think).
in the current meta of scattbikes that's 36" range gun that can move 12" and Fire so 48" that's one dead tau GC, don't get me wrong that's a lot of fire power it puts out, that thing going first will put some serious hurt, it's just that T6 3+ save that has me over here so confused
chaos0xomega wrote: Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.
drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save
Drop pod armies destroy gunlines. That is the rock-paper-scissors nature of 40k, not the fault of the model. Good deployment tactics (bubblewrap) can help negate some of the damage done by drop pod armies and protect help preserve this model so that it can retaliate. Eldar destroy almost everything in 40k at the moment except for the cheesiest of cheeses, so no surprise there. How do necrons destroy this? I really am not sure how that happens.
I agree that this should have a 2+ armour save. It is a giant suit of armour. Except for a tiny guy somewhere in there, it is all armour.
necrons have the durability to get to it. Keep in mind this is just one unit of of the codex so maybe a lot of things will change for the tau, just confused at the t6 3+ save I feel like that really hurts it
TheCustomLime wrote: I'm with Dman here. It's easy to alpha strike that thing off of the board with it being 3+ and T6. Maybe it'll get some buffs with the Tau Decurion formation?
Or you bubble wrap it with infantry? Seriously kroot are what, 6 pts a model? 180 pts gets you a nice thick furry ball of bubble wrap thatll make it pretty hard for anyone to get too close.
For the first time ever in history I'll agree with dman. This thing sucks. Tau players WANT it to be good. All other players realize it isn't as good as tau players want. Sad sad tau peeps.
I agree that this should have a 2+ armour save. It is a giant suit of armour. Except for a tiny guy somewhere in there, it is all armour.
Armour doesnt automatically mean a 2+ save...
in the current meta of scattbikes that's 36" range gun that can move 12" and Fire so 48" that's one dead tau GC, don't get me wrong that's a lot of fire power it puts out, that thing going first will put some serious hurt, it's just that T6 3+ save that has me over here so confused
Yeah, but scatterbikes are horribly overpowered. There is no unit in the game that will stack up against scatterbikes if thats what your idea of 'balanced' is.
The D weapon (from what I can read) looks useless with such a tiny range and the 10 to 20, 20 to 30 range make it hard to utilize. Its lock down to double shoot sounds powerful but it won't survive past the 1st turn in any competitive game. Its cluster rockets sounds impressive but its basically on average 14 pulse weapon shots which is hardly game ending.
100% of the time this thing will sit in some ruins with its 72" Pulse Driver Cannon and act like a turret. If your army has deep strike then it probably dies then (we need to see how interceptor system works with this update) but if you don't then your going to get clobbered by its large blast shooting twice a turn. I think this thing is 100% going to earn its points back every game but its not game breaking in being unkillable (it just will kill a lot of stuff before dying.
What I find interesting is the ability to take airbursting fragmentation projectors so it seems they are going from being a limited "experimental" piece of wargear to a more mainstream part of the Tau arsenal.
I'm not really seeing when I'd ever want to spend 360 points on this when for 370 I can get 2 riptides with IA's that do almost the same firepower and have better armor and mobility.
Just saw that you can take up to two additional stormsurges..... Squadron of Stormsurges just seems silly. I guess you could take most of your army as Stormsurges and go full blown Tau gunline.
Also I wonder how the lock down rapid fire mode works with interceptor (if it can take it). Would it fire twice or would it only get to use its weapons once?
WOw I love it! Very cool rule that gives it INSANE fire output. Interesting tidbit, the first gargantuan squadron I believe, so I wonder what their rules are like, coherency, targeting, etc
I'm afraid I disagree with you completely, Dman137. Unlike the Wraithknight, the Stormsurge is appropriately costed and not stupidly durable for it's points cost. It has a D-weapon, so it can compete with other superheavies. It may only have a 3+ armour save, but that's to balance out the fact that GCs are incredibly tough to kill. The FNP and eight wounds make this thing plenty hard to kill. Furthermore, you have the option to fire twice in one turn if you use the stabilizers, and can take Tau suit upgrades for added utility.
Sure, it's vulnerable to alpha strikes, But if I remember correctly, you are of the opinion that the Wraithknight isn't very good because it's vulnerable to alpha strikes. any unit will come off terrible compared to the most broken and OP units in the Eldar codex.
I'll be honest, this thing is good, but not lolwut good.
It's balanced.
It's a decent platform with great shooting, but it has downsides too (ie: balance)
People will bitch its junk as its not a supremacy , but I think it's on the mark.
Tau and Eldar have recently been given some top units, so now they have good units that are on par with being sensible, people will complain.
Ideally nids could do with a review of mc's now as the GC bar has been lowered.
Nice model and decent rules though.
I'd say its around riptide for quality.
So for scatterbike comparison. It takes 27 scatterbikes to get an expected value of 8 wounds through a 3+ armor and 5+ feel no pain. That's 729 points of scatterbikes that have to spend a turn shooting at it. I think it will likely get to shoot at least once or twice against even a very determined eldar player.
I'm surprised that there's no nova reactor for it. Riptides have them after all, I was thinking after reading the initial rules it would have a special Nova Reactor thing that would overcharge the main gun to be S D Gets Hot.
I guess not? Interesting. If markerlight rules stay the same, this thing will mulch an Admech army. The only thing they can really do is either march up Kastelans, or bring in drop pods.
A drop pod with a 10 Vanguard unit with 3 plasma calivers, and the phosphoenix will put a good dent in it. At least 5 or 6 wounds.
ultimentra wrote: I'm surprised that there's no nova reactor for it. Riptides have them after all, I was thinking after reading the initial rules it would have a special Nova Reactor thing that would overcharge the main gun to be S D Gets Hot.
I guess not? Interesting. If markerlight rules stay the same, this thing will mulch an Admech army. The only thing they can really do is either march up Kastelans, or bring in drop pods.
A drop pod with a 10 Vanguard unit with 3 plasma calivers, and the phosphoenix will put a good dent in it. At least 5 or 6 wounds.
TheCustomLime wrote: I'm with Dman here. It's easy to alpha strike that thing off of the board with it being 3+ and T6. Maybe it'll get some buffs with the Tau Decurion formation?
Or you bubble wrap it with infantry? Seriously kroot are what, 6 pts a model? 180 pts gets you a nice thick furry ball of bubble wrap thatll make it pretty hard for anyone to get too close.
Bubble wrap will only get you so far with a T6 creature of that size.
1- This thing will rarely get alpha strike-ed off the table in competitive play. You can keep it in reserves, walk it on 12" and fire all of its weapons....Then the opponent can try and hurt it. If your opponent has an alpha strike army, keep it in reserves, especially if they are going first. Problem solved.
2- We don't know what drones this thing can take, there could also be new drones.
3- It can take 3 support systems. We don't know what new support systems there are, but if it can take signature systems, or a shield generator it has easy access to a 4++, and maybe a 2+ save. If it gets access to stealth, you can sit this in cover for a 3++ or 4++.
T6 8 wounds 3+/4++ FNP is not a joke.
4- Incase anyone did not read the special, at the start of shooting it can anchor itself (gives up stomping attacks, and movement) and can make a second shooting attack after the first. So yeah it fires its guns as per a normal shooting phase...then shoots again.
In the GRAV heavy tournament scene you might want 3+ over a 2+ save. Just saying.
Anyways, put it in reserves versus alpha strike armies, it walks on 12" shooting phase you anchor it, it fires everything it can, then fires everything it can again. It can split fire per GC rules, which can potentially eliminate many threats to itself...
There's a delay from when you anchor it. It states that in the subsequent shooting phase of the next player turn.... so you can't walk on and drop it's massive dakka payload.
Sheit27 wrote: I'm not really seeing when I'd ever want to spend 360 points on this when for 370 I can get 2 riptides with IA's that do almost the same firepower and have better armor and mobility.
DirtyDeeds wrote: There's a delay from when you anchor it. It states that in the subsequent shooting phase of the next player turn.... so you can't walk on and drop it's massive dakka payload.
you are correct, hard to read the txt on that leak
regardless you can walk on and fire, anchor self. Given the firepower you can eliminate some threats to it the turn it arrives. Then your opponent is in the situation where they have to commit to killing it, or move away, or suffer being shot by it twice per shooting phase its anchored.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.
drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save
Drop pod armies destroy gunlines. That is the rock-paper-scissors nature of 40k, not the fault of the model. Good deployment tactics (bubblewrap) can help negate some of the damage done by drop pod armies and protect help preserve this model so that it can retaliate. Eldar destroy almost everything in 40k at the moment except for the cheesiest of cheeses, so no surprise there. How do necrons destroy this? I really am not sure how that happens.
I agree that this should have a 2+ armour save. It is a giant suit of armour. Except for a tiny guy somewhere in there, it is all armour.
So its a giant suit of walking armour - and its not a Walker because............
Its actually pretty well balanced, hopefully this is a hint that the dex wont be just full of mozz.
The suit will be good as a turret, and definitely backs up a gun line. The D shot is interesting though. Only a 10" range...I don't see that being used too often. Maybe to fire overwatch. (Can it work that way?)
Because somewhere along the way someone erased the dotted line that separated MC/GC and Walkers/SHWalkers
The conversation has been done to death. For every example of why a MC should be a walker there are just as many examples of walkers that should be MC.
Savageconvoy wrote: Because somewhere along the way someone erased the dotted line that separated MC/GC and Walkers/SHWalkers
The conversation has been done to death. For every example of why a MC should be a walker there are just as many examples of walkers that should be MC.
Then people should not use fluff to justify it having a 2+ armour save and ignore that at a walking suit of armour is a........... Walker
Then people should not use fluff to justify it having a 2+ armour save and ignore that at a walking suit of armour is a........... Walker
Edit because I misread the statement.
There are many other examples of "walking suits of armor" on both sides of the issue. The Dinobots are all vehicles, the Tau have walkers, the Dreadknight is a MC, the Wraithlord is a MC while the Wraithknight is a GC and then the Eldar titans go to being walkers.
It doesn't make sense. It never will. It hasn't made sense in a long time. The Riptide made sense. The pilot plugs into the suit and it moves fluidly. If it were to be a walker then the Crisis suits would make more sense being made into walkers as well.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Its actually pretty well balanced, hopefully this is a hint that the dex wont be just full of mozz.
The suit will be good as a turret, and definitely backs up a gun line. The D shot is interesting though. Only a 10" range...I don't see that being used too often. Maybe to fire overwatch. (Can it work that way?)
Unless it has some special rule allowing it to fire Overwatch, no it cannot. Gargantuan Creatures cannot fire Overwatch.
Honestly, the D shot at 10 inches? The way I look at it, it's intended for use against things like FMCs or Flyers coming in hot--assuming this thing can get EWO/VT.
Sheit27 wrote: I'm not really seeing when I'd ever want to spend 360 points on this when for 370 I can get 2 riptides with IA's that do almost the same firepower and have better armor and mobility.
Unless Riptides have gone up
probably got a price reduction, since GW wants you to buy MOAR Riptides!
This thing is fairly balanced. It probably won't be taken by a lot of people though. I wonder if Riptides will be kept as MCs or changed to GCs. If they become GCs, no one will take Stormsurges. Ever.
People also keep looking at this thing through the lens of the 6E codex. We don't know what subsystems this thing will be able to get. That could be a good thing, it could be a bad thing.
Sheit27 wrote: I'm not really seeing when I'd ever want to spend 360 points on this when for 370 I can get 2 riptides with IA's that do almost the same firepower and have better armor and mobility.
Unless Riptides have gone up
probably got a price reduction, since GW wants you to buy MOAR Riptides!
This thing is fairly balanced. It probably won't be taken by a lot of people though. I wonder if Riptides will be kept as MCs or changed to GCs. If they become GCs, no one will take Stormsurges. Ever.
People also keep looking at this thing through the lens of the 6E codex. We don't know what subsystems this thing will be able to get. That could be a good thing, it could be a bad thing.
Price reduction and a harder to use Nova Reactor are what I'm thinking Riptides saw.
People just forget that this can take support systems. For all we know you could strap a shield generator for a 4++ on this and then add happily EWO and skyfire. Then pin its legs down and shoot 8d6 missiles at the opponent flyer. Of and don't get me started on what is about to happen if a drop pod army "comes in to kill this thing in a single turn".
I can see this as a 360 pts of artillery powerhouse or a 420+ pts of sick anti-everything.
And for the happy scatterbike fans. Who said the Eldar player will get the first turn? because if you don't, then there'll be no tomorrow.
Oh wait now I see it. S6 T6 LD8 on such a large creature. Ouch. Scatterbikes will mulch this thing.
Really?
Tau super suit is T6 W8 Sv3+ GCFNP. Eldar Scatbikes are BS4 S6 Assault 4.
I count that as needing - 8 wounds (W8) - 12 fails (FNP) - 36 wounds (Sv3+) - 72 hits (S6 v T6) - 108 shots (BS4) - 27 SL fired (Assault 4)
That's a lot of Scatter Lasers. To drop it in 2 turns, you'd need to fire 14 SL per turn, 3 squadrons of 5 bikes each. That's taking the same 360 pts of Jetbikes to kill 360 pts of Tau super suit ____
Sheit27 wrote: I'm not really seeing when I'd ever want to spend 360 points on this when for 370 I can get 2 riptides with IA's that do almost the same firepower and have better armor and mobility.
Unless Riptides have gone up
probably got a price reduction, since GW wants you to buy MOAR Riptides!
This thing is fairly balanced. It probably won't be taken by a lot of people though. I wonder if Riptides will be kept as MCs or changed to GCs. If they become GCs, no one will take Stormsurges. Ever.
People also keep looking at this thing through the lens of the 6E codex. We don't know what subsystems this thing will be able to get. That could be a good thing, it could be a bad thing.
All true
You would have thought that GW's new models would be the best in the codex - but they are not that easy to predict..............
Riptide may be a GC and have 3+ armour as well - that would be consistant with the new model stats.........so it likely won;t be
Also must be something in the new Codex that causes Fear - GW loves Fear............
Oh wait now I see it. S6 T6 LD8 on such a large creature. Ouch. Scatterbikes will mulch this thing.
Really?
Tau super suit is T6 W8 Sv3+ GCFNP.
Eldar Scatbikes are BS4 S6 Assault 4.
I count that as needing
- 8 wounds (W8)
- 16 pain (FNP)
- 48 fails (Sv3+)
- 96 hits (S6 v T6)
- 144 shots (BS4)
- 36 SL fired (Assault 4)
That's a lot of Scatter Lasers. To drop it in 2 turns, you'd need to fire 18 SL per turn, a 3 squadrons of 6 bikes each. That's taking over 480 pts of Jetbikes to kill 360 pts of Tau super suit.
Oh wait now I see it. S6 T6 LD8 on such a large creature. Ouch. Scatterbikes will mulch this thing.
Really?
Tau super suit is T6 W8 Sv3+ GCFNP.
Eldar Scatbikes are BS4 S6 Assault 4.
I count that as needing
- 8 wounds (W8)
- 16 pain (FNP)
- 48 fails (Sv3+)
- 96 hits (S6 v T6)
- 144 shots (BS4)
- 36 SL fired (Assault 4)
That's a lot of Scatter Lasers. To drop it in 2 turns, you'd need to fire 18 SL per turn, a 3 squadrons of 6 bikes each. That's taking over 480 pts of Jetbikes to kill 360 pts of Tau super suit.
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
One of the most broken units in the game is not a good comparison of how bad a model is
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
One of the most broken units in the game is not a good comparison of how bad a model is
also there have been times of threads about how many weapons a GC can shoot and everyone keeps saying it's only 2 weapons, so really this thing has a lot of guns it's not going to get to fire every turn.
On second thought, the new suit isn't that bad. It has a lot of good shooting, good durability and will probably get some additionally boosts to it's power. All for a reasonable price.
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
One of the most broken units in the game is not a good comparison of how bad a model is
also there have been times of threads about how many weapons a GC can shoot and everyone keeps saying it's only 2 weapons, so really this thing has a lot of guns it's not going to get to fire every turn.
Even if you do limit GCs to only two weapons (IMO i think raw is they can fire all of them) it only has two main weapons (whichever pulse weapon it takes and the rocket system) so the 2 weapon limit barely matters.
Oh wait now I see it. S6 T6 LD8 on such a large creature. Ouch. Scatterbikes will mulch this thing.
Really?
Tau super suit is T6 W8 Sv3+ GCFNP (5+).
Eldar Scatbikes are BS4 S6 Assault 4.
- 108 shots (BS4)
- 27 SL fired (Assault 4)
Point taken.
No biggie. It turns out that fixing FNP to the correct 5+ makes it a wash between the two. If the Tau suit is only as good as the same points as a cloud of "broken" Scatbikes, then the Tau suit can't be bad, right?
The real question is whether the Tau not-Knight can be considered roughly balanced against the Wraithknight, Imperial Knight and Ork Stompa. If so, it's fine.
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.
topaxygouroun i wrote: People just forget that this can take support systems. For all we know you could strap a shield generator for a 4++ on this and then add happily EWO and skyfire. Then pin its legs down and shoot 8d6 missiles at the opponent flyer. Of and don't get me started on what is about to happen if a drop pod army "comes in to kill this thing in a single turn".
I can see this as a 360 pts of artillery powerhouse or a 420+ pts of sick anti-everything.
And for the happy scatterbike fans. Who said the Eldar player will get the first turn? because if you don't, then there'll be no tomorrow.
You're kidding right? Sure this thing is balanced and priced right, doesn't change the fat for those points it sucks compared to other units you could take and is taken down way to easily to boot. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.
This does not indicate a problem with the tau.
It highlights a problem with the Eldar.
Eldar who spent 295 + 100 + 270 points to drop a 360-point model in one turn?
I fail to see any problem with the Eldar if they're basically spending 2x the points to kill that Tau suit.
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.
This does not indicate a problem with the tau.
It highlights a problem with the Eldar.
Let alone the fact that hes still talking about about 600-700 pts of bikes and wraithknights needed to take out a single 360 pt suit. Someone doesn't understand the concept of point efficiency, but what do you expect from someone who plays a point and click army like Eldar.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.
Because, in general, grav weapons have good rate of fire and with only a FNP save will get mulched pretty easy even with 8 wounds. A single grav centurion squad with the dev doctrine in a pod has a good chance of alpha striking it out the turn it comes in just as an example.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.
I haven't seen anyone here claim both of those things. In fact, the only person who brought up grav weapons said that maybe it is a good thing it is only 3+ save due to grav weapons.
But it would die FASTER to those weapons if it had 2+, hence the idea that it would be helpful against those armies being nonsense. Strength D and grav don't really care what your save is, so ignore the save rating for those units whenever possible. The fact it may have access to an energy field and can park in cover means it will survive D and grav weapons just as easily it would if it were toughness 10 3+ and better than toughness 10 2+.
It is just less survivable against basic fire arms but still quite hard to put down. Considering its primary focus appears to be crowd control those basic weapons shouldn't be that big an issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The first page someone said that marines and admech would wipe this thing out easily. The only weapons they have that could do so would be grav.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: But it would die FASTER to those weapons if it had 2+, hence the idea that it would be helpful against those armies being nonsense. Strength D and grav don't really care what your save is, so ignore the save rating for those units whenever possible. The fact it may have access to an energy field and can park in cover means it will survive D and grav weapons just as easily it would if it were toughness 10 3+ and better than toughness 10 2+.
It is just less survivable against basic fire arms but still quite hard to put down. Considering its primary focus appears to be crowd control those basic weapons shouldn't be that big an issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The first page someone said that marines and admech would wipe this thing out easily. The only weapons they have that could do so would be grav.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.
drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save
Oh you mean this quote, gotcha. It's helpful to use quotes.
I agree that a 3+ save may actually benifit this more than giving it a 2+. For one, anything that can ignore a 3+ usually also ignores a 2+ (with Necron Destroyers being one of the few relevant exceptions). And Str 6 spam can be a threat but as people have pointed out, it will take a lot of str 6 to chew through 8 wounds. In addition to this though, giving it a 2+ may have increased the points cost. How many points is that worth to people?
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.
Because, in general, grav weapons have good rate of fire and with only a FNP save will get mulched pretty easy even with 8 wounds. A single grav centurion squad with the dev doctrine in a pod has a good chance of alpha striking it out the turn it comes in just as an example.
Hmm, then the argument could be made that it would be more effective as a SHW instead of a GMC. Don't hear too many Imperial Knight players complaining about Grav.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.
Because, in general, grav weapons have good rate of fire and with only a FNP save will get mulched pretty easy even with 8 wounds. A single grav centurion squad with the dev doctrine in a pod has a good chance of alpha striking it out the turn it comes in just as an example.
Hmm, then the argument could be made that it would be more effective as a SHW instead of a GMC. Don't hear too many Imperial Knight players complaining about Grav.
Grav guns, no, but grav cannons w/amps still wreck knights.
Wow! What a world where we live in where people say that this beast is awful and yet people still say that Tyranids are just fine...
Seriously, I haven't played 40k for a couple months and haven't bought anything in over a year but if THIS is now considered worthless should I just quit now? Because apparently my armies are just dung compared to this trash.
Basically the problem with any new unit is "what is the easiest counter?"
When the answer is automatically the units already dominant in the meta, then the new unit is expected to be cheap and expendable or able to put out enough damage to warrant the risk.
This looks decent (without seeing the support systems and rest of the codex) but it doesn't really wow anyone with what it can put out before counters can be put in place against it.
Right now the game is just in a bad state where a frikkin troop choice scares someone from deploying a gargantuan creature. Just consider that a moment.
The greatest thing about this is other than GC, kinda-sorta "lol gravs" and being able to shoot twice that it has not much else to compete with in its own slot
If a Tau player invests heavily into filling their elites and heavy slots and still has ginormous amount of points left, they can still field this
Also given the direction of the thread (if the beginning wasn't already a hint of what's to come) I'm surprised the magic words haven't been said yet. May as well get that out of the way
[spoiler]gotdang anime robots, muh 40k smh tbh fam
People somehow forget that tau can be flipping awesome at interceptor, and assume that pod grav and such will actually work. Not so much. There's plenty of room in a list for this baby, an EWO firebase cadre, and a good smattering of other tau in the CAD.
I don't know if maybe your LGS tau guys aren't taking EWO, but every tau or partial tau list I've ever seen on tourney tables has been able to rock out at least two of my units coming from reserves per turn.
So, looking at this thing, and seeing people decry it as terrible, I'm rather shocked.
Is it Wraithknight good? No, it's not quite that absurdly cheap.
But it's certainly not a bad investment of 360pts at all. If this came out 10 months ago it would have floored everyone. Two years ago it would have been the height of overpowered.
It's certainly not bad or underpowered by any stretch of the imagination.
The biggest problem I have is the D weapons range.
I simply don't need or care for more missiles and pie plates. Hordes aren't a problem for tau, its big walkers and tanks that are the problem.
Weird considering the best counter the tau engineers had for knights was a point blank weapon you can only fire once before the knight cuts the suit in two because it has no jetpack. This makes a gundam energy sword seem like a smart idea by comparison.
Wow are you all seriously crying about this thing?
Good points
-FNP 5+
-4+ invu save for 25 pts...
-3+ armor is awsome vs grav guns
-SO MANY WEAPONS
-Can shoot even more if he doesnt move !!!
-8 WOUNDS??6
-So much range...
Bad points
-bad in cc ( who cares its tau.. _
-low ld
Here is an exemple:
5 FYRANTS VS STORM TAU
1-5 flyrant = 60 shots TLD -->
2-Average 10 hits per model = 50 hits
3-S6 vs T6 which is gonna wound around 25x
4-3+ saves will save around 16-17 ---> still takes 8-9 wounds
5- FNP will save around 3 wounds ----> 5-6 wounds in 1 turn
Results = Storm will live with 2-3 wounds
5 Flyrants cost 1200-1235 ( depending if you put Ace fighter )
Storm only cost 360
Lets be honest here, Flyrants are one of the best units in the game and sadly 5 of them cant even shut down this thing. Keep complaning if you want but this thing is broken as hell for most of the codex...
With a Ld of 8, I'm excited to face this with a Freakshow list. A Shadowseer would only need an additional -1 to one shot the thing with Mirror of Minds, and a Psychic Shriek or two (what with the negatives and all) should put paid to it and how.
The price seems reasonable for the armament. Even with another army I don't think I'd cry to hard about it.
Why is everyone assuming the support systems will remain the same?
The codex is where it will be listed if it can take a shield generator or not and if it will cost extra, just like with the Riptide currently.
We don't know if they will keep interceptor as widely and cheaply available. It's fun to speculate but we're looking at a very incomplete picture here.
But on it's own, it's good enough. It's got enough volume of fire and templates to negate it's own BS. The missiles don't bother me much since it's more of a secondary weapon than anything else. The primary cannons both look good, with one seeming to be entirely built around daring someone to deepstrike in close.
That and this is also the first unit to come with a ABFP. Just to repeat, a one per army item is now twin-linked and is included in more than one spot in the list. That on it's own is promising especially considering the current stat of the weapon.
Jackal wrote: Silly question, but do we have a price for this thing yet?
I love tau and want to expand them, but since I play casual games I rather take this than a supremacy as its hardly friendly.
May even get me playing tau again.
It looks to be 360 base
*edit since no once reads older pages* Also, unrelated to my reply
Spoiler:
INB4 THREADLOCK .. Wow lol great job Canada. You and that one guy who's banned from Advanced Tau Tactica that posts here really are a great match for making garbage combative Tau threads
Vaktathi wrote: Is it Wraithknight good? No, it's not quite that absurdly cheap.
But it's certainly not a bad investment of 360pts at all.
Huh? A stripped down Wraithknight is 295 pts, 335 with dual Starcannon. The Tau supersuit is barely 10% more expensive than the fully-upgunned Wraithknight. If the Wraithknight is "absurdly cheap", then so is the Tau supersuit.
And just how is this suit inferior to a Wraithknight? It's got a D gun and lots of firepower. No loss of Stomp in Assaults. Extra missiles. More wounds against high S AP3 weapons. I see them as generally comparable, with a different target focus.
Jimsolo wrote: With a Ld of 8, I'm excited to face this with a Freakshow list. A Shadowseer would only need an additional -1 to one shot the thing with Mirror of Minds, and a Psychic Shriek or two (what with the negatives and all) should put paid to it and how.
The price seems reasonable for the armament. Even with another army I don't think I'd cry to hard about it.
For people saying its rubbish, have a quick think.
If this were to be for the nids, how often would you see this accompanying flyrants on the field?
Both tau and Eldar have a thing because they have some pretty damn good units currently.
So when something new is released, its instantly compared to a very high end choice.
However, given to another army, I would see something like this as a no brainer in my nids.
Jackal wrote: For people saying its rubbish, have a quick think.
If this were to be for the nids, how often would you see this accompanying flyrants on the field?
Both tau and Eldar have a thing because they have some pretty damn good units currently.
So when something new is released, its instantly compared to a very high end choice.
However, given to another army, I would see something like this as a no brainer in my nids.
Difference is that NIds need lots of shooting and pie plates with low AP to make up for the most of the army being useless and overcosted. Tau don't. The main thing the tau lacked was long range anti tank and I had assumed the thing with the massive gun would do the job; not just do what other tau units already do.
The main problem with this suit of armor is that the Tuna super suit came out beforehand which pretty much overshadows it. Though manages to look just as stupid.
You need to understand though that GW never seem to fill gaps in armies.
No idea why, but each army should have a form of filling every role to some degree.
Let's forget nids then and say crons, chaos or daemons.
For any army except tau or Eldar this thing would have a place in a competitive army.
Jackal wrote: For people saying its rubbish, have a quick think.
If this were to be for the nids, how often would you see this accompanying flyrants on the field?
Both tau and Eldar have a thing because they have some pretty damn good units currently.
So when something new is released, its instantly compared to a very high end choice.
However, given to another army, I would see something like this as a no brainer in my nids.
Difference is that NIds need lots of shooting and pie plates with low AP to make up for the most of the army being useless and over costed. Tau don't. The main thing the tau lacked was long range anti tank and I had assumed the thing with the massive gun would do the job; not just do what other tau units already do.
I know right. I had to buy a FW Y'vahrah for my anti tank. Never looked back. I'm getting the Ta'unar now as well thanks to this things mediocre stats. I don't need 5/5 shooting. I have too much 5/5 shooting. Too much litteraly. I have nothgin to shoot at sometimes with all my 5/5 guns bolted everywhere. So what do they go and give me? A fething 5/5 main battery of cluster missiles. What the hell. And 4 one use missiles that are a tad better than use impaired seeker missiles? What are they smoking. Then they give the STR D a range of 10. Thank a lot you donkey-caves.
Did you guys know the Ta'unar is sold out and they have to make more? I'm not even joking sales are through the roof on that thing. 1. It looks awesome. 2. It actually puts out anti tank fire we need. Too much in fact. I was hoping this would be anti tank so I didn't have too go and buy an OP Ta'unar. Now when I bring my Ta'unar I'm going to give my opponents extra points and objectives to try even it all out. If anyone will even play me. I got a few people who will but not as much as I would like.
Jimsolo wrote: With a Ld of 8, I'm excited to face this with a Freakshow list. A Shadowseer would only need an additional -1 to one shot the thing with Mirror of Minds, and a Psychic Shriek or two (what with the negatives and all) should put paid to it and how.
The price seems reasonable for the armament. Even with another army I don't think I'd cry to hard about it.
If you can realistically threaten it and keep it moving around, the thing seems pretty fairly costed.
If it is free to anchor and double fire from turn 2 on, it will definitely be pulling weight and then some. One of the few situations where actively ignoring the big shiny toy makes it an even bigger problem.
I'd call it fair overall with the current tau book. We'll have to see how the new book looks with it. Might be different based on wargear changes and possible formation buffs.
eskimo wrote: Something not OP and everyone goes just as wild.
Its more they were hoping it was good. T6 and 3+ save is garbage. Ask any Nid player how long 2 hive tyrants on foot last.
With only a difference of 4 wounds and FNP...Not to mention that at best the Tyrants range abilities are 12 TL S6 shots, this thing can reach out and touch people from across the board with an almost ludicrous amount of high strength, low ap pie plates. Don't even try and compare this thing to a Tyrant. I would KILL to have my Tyrants be half as effective as this beast.
EDIT: Seriously, this thing is a bit "Squishy" based on the other stupid crap that GW has been releasing in the past year but it more than makes up for it in fire power. Look at this thing as a glass cannon if you are so deluded to think that it is glass at all. Any DE players, you know THE glass cannon army, want to pipe in about how they feel about Tau players complaining about this things toughness?
Listening to Tau and Eldar players complain that their new units aren't even more OP than their other OP units is annoying when some of the other armies would KILL to have something HALF as strong as this thing.
niv-mizzet wrote: If you can realistically threaten it and keep it moving around, the thing seems pretty fairly costed.
If it is free to anchor and double fire from turn 2 on, it will definitely be pulling weight and then some. One of the few situations where actively ignoring the big shiny toy makes it an even bigger problem.
I'd call it fair overall with the current tau book. We'll have to see how the new book looks with it. Might be different based on wargear changes and possible formation buffs.
Nah I ran the numbers. It kills 5 marines with normal guns and the big cannon will obviously drop some hurt. Not really worth the points and its highly doubtful it will ever anchor. The list of things that eat it alive is very very long, and all very very common.
eskimo wrote: Something not OP and everyone goes just as wild.
Its more they were hoping it was good. T6 and 3+ save is garbage. Ask any Nid player how long 2 hive tyrants on foot last.
With only a difference of 4 wounds and FNP...Not to mention that at best the Tyrants range abilities are 12 TL S6 shots, this thing can reach out and touch people from across the board with an almost ludicrous amount of high strength, low ap pie plates. Don't even try and compare this thing to a Tyrant. I would KILL to have my Tyrants be half as effective as this beast.
Just want to point out that killing is probably the easiest way you will get Tyrants half as good as this Tau thing... I am certain GW will crumble to your will if you start killing them.
It is a very good, power creeped as feth unit. Honestly it is going to put Tau players back on a watch list just as they were getting off it; it doesn't bear good signs of what will come with their codex.
As for the lack of Invul. Just toss the fething thing on a skyshield w/ a nice Fireblade Cadre; just shored up all of the weaknesses now didn't I?
EDIT: I wonder if I'm going to revert back to my "feth Taudar" mentality.... it is close to happening.
Farsight Enclaves has the swarms of suits man not regular Tau Empire.
Yv'ahrah is incredibly good anti tank true, but it is frail and will die. It also has to get super close to bring down anything and that means it can get tangled up in melee. It's good but has its weaknesses.
EMP grenades? Where? Tell me. My firewarriors? yeah right not an option when knights are walking around the field.
This thing has very little going for it considering the existing armaments of the Tau.
All our rail weapons currently suck so bad. We literally use XV8's with the occasionally a Y'vahrah and thats all we have for anti-tank that doesn't just die.
Even then the suits can't be taken in enough numbers to matter anymore for regular TE and FSE is a whole other beast.
Meanwhile we have Smart Missiles, Fire Warriors, Sky Rays, Drones, Kroot, Sniper Drone Teams, Pathfinders, A 5/5 Large Blast gak tier flier, Riptide's, Rv'arnah, the Supremacy Armor, and Missile Broad Sides to take out the targets this thing is designed to take out.
But yeah sure we really need MORE anti-infantry/swarm.
Skyray can't to gak against heavy armour, the r'vharna isn't part of the base codex (we really shouldn't have to use FW to have decent anti-armour), and EMP grenades are really not what you want against heavy armour. Try taking down a knight with those, and if you do somehow succeed on that suicide mission, your opponents will be sure not to allow that again (which isn't to hard considering FWs are pretty squishy. We are gak against heavy armour. Melta-cide is really the only decent option, and it really shouldn't have to be. And they get chewed up by knights in any case.
Saying you shouldn't have to use FW is like any of the players of a IoM faction saying "we shouldn't need to use allies", oh wait we get shouted down when we say that.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Skyray can't to gak against heavy armour, the r'vharna isn't part of the base codex (we really shouldn't have to use FW to have decent anti-armour), and EMP grenades are really not what you want against heavy armour. Try taking down a knight with those, and if you do somehow succeed on that suicide mission, your opponents will be sure not to allow that again (which isn't to hard considering FWs are pretty squishy. We are gak against heavy armour. Melta-cide is really the only decent option, and it really shouldn't have to be. And they get chewed up by knights in any case.
Quickjager is adamantly against Tau in general so bear that in mind, all Tau are overpowered all the time in his eyes it seems. And I agree we really do need more/better counters for long range anti-tank. The vast majority of our stuff is only effective at close ranges which makes us vulnerable and we usually only have a single turn to inflict as much damage as possible. Also this is assuming that we will still have access to EMP grenades but on that same note who knows what they may change/buff for the Tau Codex we will have to see.
That being said I don't thing this thing is horrible but I do feel it is overcosted, especially for what weapons it has (im sorry all of you going on about how "it has a D weapon its just as good as other GMC's now" are completely wrong, it has a 10 INCH RANGE! At that point if our opponent is within 10 inches of it you have some other issues going on) and I do feel it should have been geared more for some long range heavy armor. Still looking on the bright side of things you can take a squadron of them and unload a good amount of S10 AP2 Blast templates downrange, once of course you spend a turn anchoring in, however that is an additional 25pts. per model and for its fire output 385pts for that is overcosted. I still plan on getting at least 2 however because it does look awesome to me
And Jager big difference between FW and Allies is that you can take Allies without any chance of argument where (personally I think its stupid if it occurs) but there are places that refuse FW so though it is slightly similar it is not the same.
Can I break my record for largest troll multiquote? Yes I can!
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: Is it Wraithknight good? No, it's not quite that absurdly cheap.
But it's certainly not a bad investment of 360pts at all.
Huh? A stripped down Wraithknight is 295 pts, 335 with dual Starcannon. The Tau supersuit is barely 10% more expensive than the fully-upgunned Wraithknight. If the Wraithknight is "absurdly cheap", then so is the Tau supersuit.
And just how is this suit inferior to a Wraithknight? It's got a D gun and lots of firepower. No loss of Stomp in Assaults. Extra missiles. More wounds against high S AP3 weapons. I see them as generally comparable, with a different target focus.
Okay, let's take the dual Starcannon Wraithknight. For 25 less points and two less wounds, the Wrtaithknight has S10 T8 WS/BS4 I5 A4 and is Fearless. Furthermore, it can swap for a D-strength CCW or plasma blast weapon, both with a 5++ save, for free. Yeah, the Wraithknight isn't undercosted at all. Clearly its the new Tau GC that's the problem!
Quickjager wrote:It is a very good, power creeped as feth unit. Honestly it is going to put Tau players back on a watch list just as they were getting off it; it doesn't bear good signs of what will come with their codex.
As for the lack of Invul. Just toss the fething thing on a skyshield w/ a nice Fireblade Cadre; just shored up all of the weaknesses now didn't I?
EDIT: I wonder if I'm going to revert back to my "feth Taudar" mentality.... it is close to happening.
The storm of hate is coming, I can guarantee you. But if you want to avoid the likes of me and my unflinching snark and well-though-out arguments, you'll stay far away.
Seriously, I don't want Tau players to be in the same situation as Eldar players were back during their new codex's release cycle. That was not fun.
Jackal wrote:Arbiter - you summed up my thoughts better than I could.
My heart bleeds for people who play tau or Eldar now.
How dare GW give them a new unbroken (but still amazing) model to use!
Do people honestly think units should keep on creeping up in power?
The power creep has been the trend so far. No reason to think it won't stop now (though I hope that GW does).
Eldar have some seriously OP units, and Tau have a stereotype as being boring to play against and one-dimensional. But not all Eldar players use the OP units, and not all Tau players spam undercosted MCs and play as static gunline. I just hope the Tau codex turns out better in terms of balance than the latest Eldar book.
Ravenous D wrote:
Gamgee wrote: The issue is not its effectiveness, it's the role. We already kill off armies that its designed to kill.
We needed good anti-tank roles. Not more anti swarm.
Well if we follow the line of tactical genius in this thread just charge the things and get in D range because its a viable tactic.
Y'all mother fethers need to get your daddy issues with eldar checked.
If you're the tournament-caliber player you say you are, you should know that a single-shot D-wepaon isn't much of a threat. After all, no one takes the Wraithknight with dual Wraithcannons.
Quickjager wrote: Saying you shouldn't have to use FW is like any of the players of a IoM faction saying "we shouldn't need to use allies", oh wait we get shouted down when we say that.
But not me. IoM should not have to use allies any more than tau should have to use FW. What you are saying really isn't an argument.
All armies should be able to stand on there own, without needing allies/FW. And just because your army currently requires those, doesn't mean that others should. In fact, you should want other armies not to require them, as that means it's more likely yours won't next times it's updated.
Basically, just because your army gets something bad, doesn't mean everyone elses has to.
Depends on how you define "bad". There's Ork "bad" and then there's Eldar "bad", but the two are not equally "bad" or even "bad" on the same end of the spectrum.
Psienesis wrote: Depends on how you define "bad". There's Ork "bad" and then there's Eldar "bad", but the two are not equally "bad" or even "bad" on the same end of the spectrum.
Which is very true, honestly this thing makes me feel like poor bug players with how overcosted their MC's/GMS's tend to be
It is true, I don't like Tau; they are the anti-thesis of the two armies I have and play (Grey Knights & Orks). Where I like to assault, Tau backpedal and keep shooting as they can. They got good answers to both armies and the games against them REALLY test my ability to exploit everything I have available to me to stand a chance.
So what if they have to get in close to HP units to use their good anti-tank. There are very few vehicles that are real threats to them, is it bad that Tau are moderately balanced by having to screen certain units in a display of some tactical skill? Do you WANT to do nothing but shoot, shoot, move & shoot?
The D is not an issue (ironically for once), but this unit is still GOOD! How are people seeing otherwise? Just because we are comparing it to THEE most broken units in the game already?
Again, people aren't complaining about how good it is, but what it does. Tau already has anti-swarm well and truly covered (as I assume you have encountered first hand), what they do not have to any reasonable extent is anti-heavy armour. We saw the big guns and though (hey maybe this things will be good against armour, which would be a welcome fix". But no it's more fething 5-5 spam.
It's not even really good 5/5 spam since FW get objective secure and easy methods to buff, SMS ignore cover and LOS issues, the bomber has less scatter and is harder to hit (but gets less bombing runs and has the chance to never fire again), Drones!, and Piranha are just plain fun.
What really kills me is the very concept.
"Hey, lets make a suit like the Riptide but have it be all missiles. Not the good ones or the mediocre ones, but 5/5 ones like every where else in the book."
"Yeah, and lets give it sms as well!"
"Then lets give it some one shot missiles that are actually pretty good!"
"Guys, why not just give it the good missiles instead of all the crappy ones?"
Then he gets thrown out a window.
It's solid, in a vacuum.. whether or not it's good within its own book has yet to be seen. I think this type of gmc is more of what I'd personally prefer from gw, since they are here to stay regardless.
The more I think about it the more and more I hate the Stormsurge rules.
It's like getting a WW1 French Field Gun during WW2 instead of a Howitzer let alone the Flak 88 that we needed. Then the officers shout up and down its rapid fire capabilities are great at taking down infantry, and then around the corner comes a great big ISU-152.
Boy oh boy is that thing in trouble.
In this case the SS for short (lol) is the Canon de 75 modèle 1897 and a dropped in squad is the tank or a knight.
*sigh*
We calling this the SS or the MLE in honor of its clearly designed by a bunch of idiotic committee members? I prefer Little MLE, but I can see the appeal of calling it our SS walker. Hahah.
There are units that are more durable, better anti-horde, better anti-tank, better anti-TEQ, and look better.
Let me put it as plainly as I can. It's like you're playing Tetris and you never seem to get the straight line and keeping getting the L's and bent blocks. Yeah, you can use them. But it's not really what you needed and wanted. And your friend across from you is playing a game where he gets the straight lines one after another.
Savageconvoy wrote: I just want to know why we keep getting missiles, ion guns, and pulse weapons when people just want more railguns?
You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?
Yeah... I dont see how people keep missing this.
Also so far this is the only unit stats that we have seen so far. Maybe things like HYMP get a nerf, maybe our fliers suddenly become really good anti-tank. No reason why the bomber is still a S5 bomb instead of something more armor devastating. After all, I bet they want to sell more of those kits too as they were not exactly flying off the shelf upon release.
I think this units good, bad, redundency, etc. can only be determined once we know more information about what other units have gotten or have lost.
JohnHwangDD wrote: You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?
For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.
Except, it's not overcosted at all at 360 pts, and the Hyper Mega Wave Motion Gun option is totally worth the +25 pts. Especially when it gets to double tap after the first turn.
Hell, if my Chaos Marines could have this bad boy... I would gladly trade 2 Defilers for 1 of these!
JohnHwangDD wrote: You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?
For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.
and anchors mean it cant run away from a fail leadership in cc (it can get sweeping advanced by black knights ouchy). for those wondering its a bit of a perfect storm but you set up the knights to charge, you deepstrike in the darkshroud, you charge and laugh as his overwatch is wasted shooting at air (because he wont kill a single one; period) they get into CC, he swings his s6 ap- smack and then gets corvus hammered into the pavement and will pretty much auto-lose combat statistically. and then its G to da G as he gets swept aside by bikes and their silly initiative, all you need to do is make damn sure he fails leadership (and you can cause interromancy is a thing). as stated its a bit of a perfect storm but losing 380+ point model to some relatively cheap black knights with a librarian would suck SOOOOO bad.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Except, it's not overcosted at all at 360 pts, and the Hyper Mega Wave Motion Gun option is totally worth the +25 pts. Especially when it gets to double tap after the first turn.
Hell, if my Chaos Marines could have this bad boy...
Cant agree with your opinion on the fact the base cost of the model isn't overcosted, especially if comparing it to models or books that have yet to be updated but I am perfectly fine with that gun being 25pts.
Just looking at the base model stats and what it can do to me makes it feel overcosted.
-Firepower: So at most you are dishing out x2 shots a turn that have scatter potential and depending on the weapon you may have to take a turn setting up to get the second shot. Also one of the guns max range is 30 inches which isn't horrible but definitely not the range that Tau are used to.
-Type of firepower: As mentioned the only real gun that has long range anti-armor capability is the S10 AP1 Ordnance weapon which is a 25pt. upgrade (which is acceptable in my eyes) with the other weapon system being only useful against infantry.
-T6 platform, the argument that "we need anti tank to kill it" is invalid since Bolters and even Lasguns have the potential to wound it.
Not saying it like "boo hoo its horribly overcosted" and im not even saying the unit sucks, I would have to say its an okay unit but I feel that base cost it should have been more around 325-335pts. which is still more expensive then a base Wraithinkight. And yes I will use the Wraithknight as an example over anything in the CSM book due to the fact that it is a much more recent book and a much better example to base potential future/current releases on.
The last guy had the Eldar spend 2x the points to have a fair chance at dropping the Tau suit after 2 rounds of shooting by a 3-part combo force.
Now, you're doing the same thing in that wall of self-gratifying fantasy. Just how many points did you spend to make that scenario happen?
Because if it takes 3 units at twice the points cost working in perfect synergy to defeat this thing, you know what? That means it's good. Period.
And points for points, this thing is clearly better than a pair of Chaos Defilers. Any CSM player would be willing to pay a good 5-10% extra points tax in order to take a single squadron of these things.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The last guy had the Eldar spend 2x the points to have a fair chance at dropping the Tau suit after 2 rounds of shooting by a 3-part combo force.
Now, you're doing the same thing in that wall of self-gratifying fantasy. Just how many points did you spend to make that scenario happen?
Because if it takes 3 units at twice the points cost working in perfect synergy to defeat this thing, you know what? That means it's good. Period.
And points for points, this thing is clearly better than a pair of Chaos Defilers. Any CSM player would be willing to pay a good 5-10% extra points tax in order to take a single squadron of these things.
Self gratifying fantasy my ass, all I stated is that you trying to justify its points cost based on the point costs of another and older (and generally recognized poor book) is a very poor example to base your logic on. And what are you talking about I have never mentioned taking multiple units with twice the points cost to defeat this thing so I fail to see what you are getting at? Elaborate or I am afraid you are in the wrong argument or just babbling incoherently.
JohnHwangDD wrote: You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?
For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.
and anchors mean it cant run away from a fail leadership in cc (it can get sweeping advanced by black knights ouchy). for those wondering its a bit of a perfect storm but you set up the knights to charge, you deepstrike in the darkshroud, you charge and laugh as his overwatch is wasted shooting at air (because he wont kill a single one; period) they get into CC, he swings his s6 ap- smack and then gets corvus hammered into the pavement and will pretty much auto-lose combat statistically. and then its G to da G as he gets swept aside by bikes and their silly initiative, all you need to do is make damn sure he fails leadership (and you can cause interromancy is a thing). as stated its a bit of a perfect storm but losing 380+ point model to some relatively cheap black knights with a librarian would suck SOOOOO bad.
Dman137 wrote: WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.
Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.
This does not indicate a problem with the tau.
It highlights a problem with the Eldar.
Eldar who spent 295 + 100 + 270 points to drop a 360-point model in one turn?
I fail to see any problem with the Eldar if they're basically spending 2x the points to kill that Tau suit.
Because I got news for you - not every reply after you is for you.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Wow, is someone a little cranky? Maybe chill a bit, and read the rest of the thread before you get so wound up?
Im perfectly fine thank you, not mad at all pardon me for pointing out your flawed logic and comments? When directing something in regards to what I am saying I generally don't include other peoples arguments, especially if they are unrelated to the points I am trying to make. maybe split up your conversations properly and not try to lump it all into on giant congealed mess?
JohnHwangDD wrote: You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?
For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.
and anchors mean it cant run away from a fail leadership in cc (it can get sweeping advanced by black knights ouchy). for those wondering its a bit of a perfect storm but you set up the knights to charge, you deepstrike in the darkshroud, you charge and laugh as his overwatch is wasted shooting at air (because he wont kill a single one; period) they get into CC, he swings his s6 ap- smack and then gets corvus hammered into the pavement and will pretty much auto-lose combat statistically. and then its G to da G as he gets swept aside by bikes and their silly initiative, all you need to do is make damn sure he fails leadership (and you can cause interromancy is a thing). as stated its a bit of a perfect storm but losing 380+ point model to some relatively cheap black knights with a librarian would suck SOOOOO bad.
Except that being a GC, he's Fearless and isn't running away from combat to be swept - Interromancy or no.
Oh, and punctuation, grammer and sentence structure is a thing, too.
I think hes ballanced, but seeing that 3+ Save.. dear god. TMCs are going to get a 4+ save in the next update arent they..
Curious to see how much the model is actually going to cost. At the current rumor point it puts him at around 250 AU which is crazy. (Knights being 155 AU.)
I just realized that you can see a shield generator similar to the Riptide on the thing from a side profile. I'm guessing it must have an option to purchase a shield.
this is a table edge unit. It's 3+ keeps it safer from grav drops. We all know riptides are a point sink for tau and one of the weaker choices you can bring... Why not give eva-nerds their glory and distract them from the true power of the Tau. I will say, it seems really meant to thin out infantry so you can focus more on hammerheads, or possibly even find a reason to field a Tau air unit.
I definitely think it's adequate for its cost. The problem, as I see it, is that it's redundant. The stormsurge doesn't really do anything that can't be done by other tau units more efficiently. I don't need (or want) any more strength 5 AP 5 shooting, and 2 strength 10 shots (or 4 if stationary and within 20") isn't that effective against other GMCs or SHWs for 360+ points. It can hurt them of course, but just not that much for what you pay. Still it's reasonably costed all things considered, it just doesn't fill any new gaps in the the Tau war machine.
Also, comparing the stormsurge (or practically any unit/creature/vehicle) to the defiler isn't very relevant when the defiler is largely considered to be one of the (if not the number one) worst vehicles in the game. Even leman russ battle tanks look good compared to the defiler.
Considering I feel the model is mediocre I'll probably skip buying one. Though I will wait to see the new codex and what support systems and formations bonuses it can get before I make up my mind for sure.
chalkobob wrote: I definitely think it's adequate for its cost. The problem, as I see it, is that it's redundant. The stormsurge doesn't really do anything that can't be done by other tau units more efficiently. I don't need (or want) any more strength 5 AP 5 shooting, and 2 strength 10 shots (or 4 if stationary and within 20") isn't that effective against other GMCs or SHWs for 360+ points. It can hurt them of course, but just not that much for what you pay. Still it's reasonably costed all things considered, it just doesn't fill any new gaps in the the Tau war machine.
Also, comparing the stormsurge (or practically any unit/creature/vehicle) to the defiler isn't very relevant when the defiler is largely considered to be one of the (if not the number one) worst vehicles in the game. Even leman russ battle tanks look good compared to the defiler.
Considering I feel the model is mediocre I'll probably skip buying one. Though I will wait to see the new codex and what support systems and formations bonuses it can get before I make up my mind for sure.
I don't really think its intended to plug into your current list. I think the trick to the stormsurge is it can replace some of your current S5 so you can field some of the other units with a higher strength role.Not that it will necessarily be a good choice though.
Savageconvoy wrote: I just realized that you can see a shield generator similar to the Riptide on the thing from a side profile. I'm guessing it must have an option to purchase a shield.
Well, remember that all the "baked-in" Support Systems that each kind of Suit has currently are part of the actual Suit profiles.
It very well could have a Shield Generator, we just aren't seeing it yet because of it being a Wargear line.
I don't really think its intended to plug into your current list. I think the trick to the stormsurge is it can replace some of your current S5 so you can field some of the other units with a higher strength role.Not that it will necessarily be a good choice though.
Well, here's hoping the new fire warrior variant shoots something other than Strength 5, AP 5. Or they let us keep taking crisis suits as troops.
I don't really think its intended to plug into your current list. I think the trick to the stormsurge is it can replace some of your current S5 so you can field some of the other units with a higher strength role.Not that it will necessarily be a good choice though.
Well, here's hoping the new fire warrior variant shoots something other than Strength 5, AP 5. Or they let us keep taking crisis suits as troops.
Something's gotta give. If all our guns have the same stats I can't see this being used too much. Way too much 5/5 everywhere else that you can't get rid of so why bring even more? It seems redundant. Now it's all up to a new codex to make this guy playabale. As it is now with the current dex? Less than stellar.
I swear if I see anymore 5/5 options in our army I'm going to freak out.
It's like complimentary breadsticks, at first i's good and supplmental but now it's like complimentary breadstick factory and no main course. Just too much.
How this thing really plays out is really dependent on what subsystems remain in existence and how much subsystems cost. Don't count on everything remaining the same, a lot of armies lost quite a few options in their new codices.
This thing does have a problem with being swept due to those supports, which would be a shame for a 8W model to disappear. The fact it is Ld8 makes it pretty vulnerable to Shrieking it to death too.
Long story short, at this time this thing is actually pretty potent at what it does, but it is beatable. And that is the way it should be.
arinnoor wrote: Maybe I'm too idealistic, but perhaps this means the hammerhead returns to its real role as an anti armor beast.
Returns? When was it ever? Broadsides always did the same job but better. I'd take 3 shots that can be split any way I want and twin-linked (optional BS4 independent of markers) any day. There really wasn't anything they could do to make the hammerhead worth taking for me.
casvalremdeikun wrote: How this thing really plays out is really dependent on what subsystems remain in existence and how much subsystems cost. Don't count on everything remaining the same, a lot of armies lost quite a few options in their new codices.
This thing does have a problem with being swept due to those supports, which would be a shame for a 8W model to disappear. The fact it is Ld8 makes it pretty vulnerable to Shrieking it to death too.
Long story short, at this time this thing is actually pretty potent at what it does, but it is beatable. And that is the way it should be.
arinnoor wrote: Maybe I'm too idealistic, but perhaps this means the hammerhead returns to its real role as an anti armor beast.
Returns? When was it ever? Broadsides always did the same job but better. I'd take 3 shots that can be split any way I want and twin-linked (optional BS4 independent of markers) any day. There really wasn't anything they could do to make the hammerhead worth taking for me.
casvalremdeikun wrote: How this thing really plays out is really dependent on what subsystems remain in existence and how much subsystems cost. Don't count on everything remaining the same, a lot of armies lost quite a few options in their new codices.
This thing does have a problem with being swept due to those supports, which would be a shame for a 8W model to disappear. The fact it is Ld8 makes it pretty vulnerable to Shrieking it to death too.
Long story short, at this time this thing is actually pretty potent at what it does, but it is beatable. And that is the way it should be.
...its fearless.
Derp...Still, it can get zapped to death with Psychic Shriek.
Okay, let me be clear, I do think it's just as ridiculous to compare the stormsurge to a wraithknight as it is to a defiler. The extremes of the balance scale should never be used as the standard measure of a units worth.
I also, as I mentioned earlier, find the stormsurge to be appropriately costed. It's just right actually, neither being too bad or too good.
My issue is it does what almost every other tau unit does (infantry hunting), Even the big pulse guns on it are more suited to shooting squads over heavy targets considering that one is always large blast, and the other is either a large blast at its longest distance, a small blast at middle distance and only being single shot at 10" and under. Adding more anti infantry to the tau is like trying to sell someone wondering around in a desert a cup full of sand. Even if that is the worlds highest quality sand, its impossible to get too excited for it.
Consider the following units all come with, can be given, or have buffs unique to strength 5 AP 5 guns in the Tau Empire codex (Also consider tau, as an entire faction unto itself, has one of the smallest unit selections):
Commanders, fire blades, ethereals* (they have a buff exclusively for pulse weapons), fire warriors, drone sentry turrets, devilfish, riptides, crisis suits, stealth suits, drone squads, pathfinders, piranhas, sunshark bombers, razorshark fighters, drone remoras, barracudas, hazard suits, hammerhead gunships, skyray missile gunships, broadside battlesuits, heavy gun drones, Ta'unar supremacy battlesuits, manta missile destroyers, tiger shark bombers (of all varieties), and orca dropships.
It's easier (and far shorter) to just list what can't be given strength 5.
At this point in time I am the someone wandering through the desert. Please, GW, don't give me more sand.
chalkobob wrote: Okay, let me be clear, I do think it's just as ridiculous to compare the stormsurge to a wraithknight as it is to a defiler. The extremes of the balance scale should never be used as the standard measure of a units worth.
I also, as I mentioned earlier, find the stormsurge to be appropriately costed. It's just right actually, neither being too bad or too good.
My issue is it does what almost every other tau unit does (infantry hunting), Even the big pulse guns on it are more suited to shooting squads over heavy targets considering that one is always large blast, and the other is either a large blast at its longest distance, a small blast at middle distance and only being single shot at 10" and under. Adding more anti infantry to the tau is like trying to sell someone wondering around in a desert a cup full of sand. Even if that is the worlds highest quality sand, its impossible to get too excited for it.
Consider the following units all come with, can be given, or have buffs unique to strength 5 AP 5 guns in the Tau Empire codex (Also consider tau, as an entire faction unto itself, has one of the smallest unit selections):
Commanders, fire blades, ethereals* (they have a buff exclusively for pulse weapons), fire warriors, drone sentry turrets, devilfish, riptides, crisis suits, stealth suits, drone squads, pathfinders, piranhas, sunshark bombers, razorshark fighters, drone remoras, barracudas, hazard suits, hammerhead gunships, skyray missile gunships, broadside battlesuits, heavy gun drones, Ta'unar supremacy battlesuits, manta missile destroyers, tiger shark bombers (of all varieties), and orca dropships.
It's easier (and far shorter) to just list what can't be given strength 5.
At this point in time I am the someone wandering through the desert. Please, GW, don't give me more sand.
chalkobob wrote: Okay, let me be clear, I do think it's just as ridiculous to compare the stormsurge to a wraithknight as it is to a defiler. The extremes of the balance scale should never be used as the standard measure of a units worth.
Well, great. You just invalidated pretty much the entire previous discussion.
But you are the first one to figure out why I brought up the Defiler, so gold star to you!
Of course, you're also on the same page as I am, where we both see the Tau suit as OK/good, not bad, not broken.
Didn't people use to think that the tau riptide when it was first spoiled was awful and bad til the rest of the codex came out and people saw how to use it properly? I could see this people the same thing. I think it's pretty solid for it's points.
Oberron wrote: Didn't people use to think that the tau riptide when it was first spoiled was awful and bad til the rest of the codex came out and people saw how to use it properly? I could see this people the same thing. I think it's pretty solid for it's points.
Serious question, not a rhetorical question.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I purchased the last Tau codex a week after it was released, and I knew right off the bat the riptide was broken. I was actually naive enough to assume that it having access to early warning override was an error and was going to be FAQed. Took me about a year before I purchased a riptide, and even then, I gave it the heavy burst cannon, and no EWO.
The really sad thing is that this suit even needs to exist in the first place.
I remember a time when T6 was considered extremely tough and T8 of the Wraithlord godly. Now T6 and 3+ save is more or less low end of survivability and a joke to others.
This is pretty much why I stopped playing 40K. Its really sad when the offical model has stats on par with the inflated make believe uber killy stuff my 10 yr old son comes up with when doing his super battle narratives
OMG they are so damn funny to listen to in the background.
Jayden63 wrote: The really sad thing is that this suit even needs to exist in the first place.
I remember a time when T6 was considered extremely tough and T8 of the Wraithlord godly. Now T6 and 3+ save is more or less low end of survivability and a joke to others.
This is pretty much why I stopped playing 40K. Its really sad when the offical model has stats on par with the inflated make believe uber killy stuff my 10 yr old son comes up with when doing his super battle narratives
OMG they are so damn funny to listen to in the background.
Aye, this is what has astounded me, and that it basically rocketed to the moon in like 18 months. I've stopped attending events and have limited my play to occasional pre-arranged games, which is I guess what GW has wanted all along, but it's also certainly cut down on my spending
I remember at T6 W4 3+ a basic Carnifex was considered fairly tough, aT6 W4 2+sv Hive Tyrant or T6 W6 3+sv Trygon *very* tough, and even a T5 W4 3+/5++ Daemon Prince was no slouch in 4E/5E and even early 6E. Then came the 2013 codex books and then 7E and early 2015 books and everything just went complete bonkers.
re- the arms race... a lot of people bemoan it as something that they dislike. Yet clearly, this is what fans are asking for, based on both their buying patterns (people buy the big, powerful models), AND what people vote as their favorite models. If you look at the 2014 readers' choices, they were almost all giant, powerful creatures that were also sophisticated, super-premium models.
It's almost unimaginable for a very sophisticated small model to be chosen as readers' favorites, no matter how cool or awesome it is. Mark my words, when they do 2015, it won't be Dominus, or Librarian, or Chaplain or Windrider -- it will be some monster $150+ model like Skarbrand, Bloodthirster, Celestant-Prime, Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, or even the IK v2. Mabye Venator will have a chance to be in the running -- so far, that's *my* favorite model
Incidentally,. I went against the grain last year and voted for Durthu; I don't think he even came close.
Oberron wrote: Didn't people use to think that the tau riptide when it was first spoiled was awful and bad til the rest of the codex came out and people saw how to use it properly? I could see this people the same thing. I think it's pretty solid for it's points.
Serious question, not a rhetorical question.
Yeah, for sure. This is sold as a "support platform". So it's pretty important what it's supporting, right? Or, more aptly, what's supporting it!
I mean large models are meant to be centerpieces right? So the focus of the army will have the sculptors trying their hardest on them and bring out the most detail. So the best looking pieces tend to be the large ones.
Talys wrote: re- the arms race... a lot of people bemoan it as something that they dislike. Yet clearly, this is what fans are asking for, based on both their buying patterns (people buy the big, powerful models), AND what people vote as their favorite models. If you look at the 2014 readers' choices, they were almost all giant, powerful creatures that were also sophisticated, super-premium models.
As display pieces, as models, a lot of them are great. No argument. Big models have always really been intended as centerpiece showcase items.
However, a large factor of what's driving their popularity is their power and relatively low cost. Yeah, people are gonna love them when they're both awesome looking and incredibly powerful for a relatively small points investment.
Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.
Well as I think was mentioned somewhere this is artillery piece, the Tau version of a Basilisk. It's even specifically mentioned that it is not a battlesuit, but a "ballistic" suit, which I assume means one made exclusively for shooting,
(Why do the Tau use tanks again?)
Anyway, it is not meant to be a frontline combatant, and is (relatively) weakly armored for that reason. The bulk of the suit is presumably power plants and supports and so forth, not armor. It's supposed to be in the rear of the army providing support. Not in the front tanking forepower. Again, it's the Tau version of a Basilisk or Thunderfire Cannon or Mek Gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, 4 S9 large blast attacks is not bad anti-armor.
Quickjager wrote:So what if they have to get in close to HP units to use their good anti-tank. There are very few vehicles that are real threats to them, is it bad that Tau are moderately balanced by having to screen certain units in a display of some tactical skill? Do you WANT to do nothing but shoot, shoot, move & shoot?
The D is not an issue (ironically for once), but this unit is still GOOD! How are people seeing otherwise? Just because we are comparing it to THEE most broken units in the game already?
Tau don't have psykers and no good melee units to speak of. Tau don't like to reach close combat (they don't even train for that), so what's the point of so short ranged weapons? Our shortest range was 18", and only DS/fast units used those.
What we have is Movement and Shooting. So yes, what we do is move and shoot.
The SS isn't that appealing to Tau players because we were promised (as the fluff text says) an anti-tank/super-heavy unit, but what we got is ANOTHER anti-infantry model. We have those in spades already.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, 4 S9 large blast attacks is not bad anti-armor.
At 20"? Yep, it is. We already have lots of short-ranged good AT. And 4 shots only after 1 entire turn deployed, close to the enemy (which will charge it).
The multiple fire options Cannon (Macrocannon I think? Can't really read it in the leaked pictures) is kind of useless due to its shorter range making the Pulse Driver Cannon the ultimate choice, especially for the role we need thanks to it being Ordnance. Also already mentioned several times it is easily overshadowed by other weapons units (as of now) found in the Tau Codex still leaving us without any reliable long range anti-armor capability. Personally I feel that it is slightly over costed (not me trying to be a powergaming jerk so anyone who thinks that can shove it) but for what it does in regards to its role currently done better by other Tau units on top of the points cost increase for the Pulse Driver Cannon I don't think it's worth 360 points base. Not saying it isn't a good unit for what you get I just think that it would be better off being 360 points with the upgraded Pulse Driver Cannon and before Support Systems, if those didn't change points cost wise getting FnP and Interceptor would put it at exactly 400pts.
Talys wrote: re- the arms race... a lot of people bemoan it as something that they dislike. Yet clearly, this is what fans are asking for, based on both their buying patterns (people buy the big, powerful models), AND what people vote as their favorite models. If you look at the 2014 readers' choices, they were almost all giant, powerful creatures that were also sophisticated, super-premium models.
As display pieces, as models, a lot of them are great. No argument. Big models have always really been intended as centerpiece showcase items.
However, a large factor of what's driving their popularity is their power and relatively low cost. Yeah, people are gonna love them when they're both awesome looking and incredibly powerful for a relatively small points investment.
Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.
Quite frankly, I like the big models. They are cool. And up until DreamForge's Leviathan (and now, Kingdom Death : Monster), only GW has been doing them.
FW showed that overpricing just doesn't work from a gaming standpoint.
The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves.
I think we need to see it on the table in concert with an army before coming to any conclusions. Nobody's mentioned the effects of formations yet which is usually a big-time consideration. You know they're coming.
Gunlining might not work with the Blastcannon. But then again, most of these new codex releases made their armies play completely differently. 3x of these things in a squadron can get into a central position very quickly, at which point they can anchor and attempt to dominate the board. It's much higher risk but it's going to play a lot better to Maelstrom.
So I think what really matters, can the new Tau play effectively in the midfield? And that remains to be seen.
For the Tau to play at midfield, maybe they need better cover fire to clear the way as they advance? I wonder if the Tau would get anything to help with that.
I really hope know one is dumb enough to buy this thing.
Well my local 40k league doesn't allow you to take any non-codex lords of war, so I might get one just to have a lord of war choice. The other Tau players at the store are also getting one, so I can borrow 2 and run 3, and watch people whine. Maybe then they'll open up the playing field.
So you're admitting that you're going to be tfg? I'd never wanna play you at all. And hopefully tournies ban him even though he isn't good. Most tournies allow you guys those two really scrappy lords of war. stick to those. Tau need to remain below. Not joking or trolling, being serious
Remind me again why it would be bad to bring three of those?
Depending on upgrades that's 100 points invested into three models that have to be grouped together and are completely susceptible to everything in the tournament scene already.
And you honestly think Tau need to be below the power curve? Can you give any sane reason why or why there even needs to be a distinction as large as we see now?
Pain4Pleasure wrote: So you're admitting that you're going to be tfg? I'd never wanna play you at all. And hopefully tournies ban him even though he isn't good. Most tournies allow you guys those two really scrappy lords of war. stick to those. Tau need to remain below. Not joking or trolling, being serious
True. Potentially though, Tau special abilities and war gear can fill a similar roll. Such as the buffmander and the ethereal. Although I wouldn't mind if they added a psyker auxiliary, it's not technically necessary.
Lack of Psyker isn't that bad, as it can be masked by better shooting / statlines / special rules.
For example, Eldar pay up to 100 points for a Farseer giving Guide. But they could just as easily pay a few more points to make everything twin-linked (or BS5) due to magic tech.
Yes, I would pay a lot of points (and cash) for a tau equivalent to a culluxes assassin. like some sort of super predator that hunts psykers, domesticated by the tau.
Talys wrote: re- the arms race... a lot of people bemoan it as something that they dislike. Yet clearly, this is what fans are asking for, based on both their buying patterns (people buy the big, powerful models), AND what people vote as their favorite models. If you look at the 2014 readers' choices, they were almost all giant, powerful creatures that were also sophisticated, super-premium models.
As display pieces, as models, a lot of them are great. No argument. Big models have always really been intended as centerpiece showcase items.
However, a large factor of what's driving their popularity is their power and relatively low cost. Yeah, people are gonna love them when they're both awesome looking and incredibly powerful for a relatively small points investment.
Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.
Quite frankly, I like the big models. They are cool. And up until DreamForge's Leviathan (and now, Kingdom Death : Monster), only GW has been doing them.
FW showed that overpricing just doesn't work from a gaming standpoint.
The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves.
That was exactly my point...these big models are coming out at very low points costs relative to their abilities. Cutting the Baneblade's base price in half would put it at !~260pts, only about 50-60pts above a kitted Leman Russ variant. A Banehammer cut in half would cost less than what a Pask-Punisher would cost.
Most of the pricing of GC's and SH's in recent years was GW, not FW, and this includes still-vastly overcosted units like Scythed Heirodules.
And Baneblade-chassis vehicles typically aren't near 600pts, some are as cheap as 410pts. A couple might be a smidge overcosted, primarily the original Baneblade (since for some reason they *raised* it's cost), but as a whole they're relatively sanely costed.
Nobody thought they were overcosted until *very* recently. They matched a trio of Russ tanks generally fairly well in capability, resiliency, and price. It wasn't until we started getting things like Wraithknights at sub-300pts that people started to think Baneblades equivalent tanks were overcosted.
Strength 10 ordnance large blast firing twice I think will be really useful for Tau when fighting against armored columns, especially things like tons of Rhinos (like with the Battle Company) or tons of chimeras and the like. All the of the battle reports I've seen of the SM battle company being played I saw a bunch of rhinos all clustered together in the middle of the table. I imagine with the right markerlight support, you could probably get 3 rhinos under that pie plate, and with S10 AP1 it wouldn't be hard to fish for an explodes result. Since he's a Gargantuan creature and fire at different targets, he might could fire off those missiles at the squads inside.
Sure, its no knight titan killer like the fluff says it is, but it can still be useful.
What would a tau suit that was a titan killer be armed with?
I'm just thinking that if it was actually capable of ending a wraithknight in one turn it would be "the new wraithknight".
If a GC with 10 strength 10 ignore cover api shot cannon dropped it would be absolutely devastating to everything. Basically, you can't put enough firepower to kill a wraithknight on a model or it would murder the lesser races even worse.
Not having psychic is huge if the opponent is major on it. Grey Knights, daemons, eldar. Tau really need nerfed harder. Their points increased. They need to represent on the board how small and insignificant they really are. Our new punching bag.
Vaktathi wrote: Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.
The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves.
That was exactly my point...these big models are coming out at very low points costs relative to their abilities.
Cutting the Baneblade's base price in half would put it at !~260pts, only about 50-60pts above a kitted Leman Russ variant. A Banehammer cut in half would cost less than what a Pask-Punisher would cost.
And Baneblade-chassis vehicles typically aren't near 600pts, some are as cheap as 410pts. A couple might be a smidge overcosted, primarily the original Baneblade (since for some reason they *raised* it's cost), but as a whole they're relatively sanely costed.
Nobody thought they were overcosted until *very* recently. They matched a trio of Russ tanks generally fairly well in capability, resiliency, and price. It wasn't until we started getting things like Wraithknights at sub-300pts that people started to think Baneblades equivalent tanks were overcosted.
Sorry, all, wall-o-text incoming...
The big units are generally not unfairly costed - they are fairly designed and competitively costed. The only problem is that you're bringing a rusty fork (an overpriced Guard Codex) to the battle, not a shiny new sword (i.e. Decurion, Craftworld, Knights, Marines) - that's your fault for not surfing the meta.
Fairly priced, the BB variants should come in around 300-350 points (roughly half of 600), with 2 sponsons or AV14 side included.
And the Leman Russ? Hold on a sec. In the Leman Russ thread, didn't some random goofball state that the majority of Russ variants are overcosted?
the LRBT and Demolisher are basically too expensive as single weapon platforms and non-functional with other weapons, the Vanquisher is actually amusingly bad at being an anti-tank unit with the way vehicle kill works now, the Executioner is simply far too likely to kill itself (over a 6 turn game a plasma equipped tank will kill itself on average without the enemy having to do anything), and the FW Annihilator faces the same problem the Vanquisher does.
Pretending for a moment that quote is accurate *and* the poster actually knows something about the Imperial Guard, *and* that he has some reasonable clue what Leman Russ tank variants ought to cost for how they perform in the current meta. If so, the LRBT should be more like 125 pts, and 140 for the Demolisher, instead of the overpriced 150 & 170. With the Leman Russ baseline corrected, a Baneblade should be priced like a Leman Russ + a Demolisher combined, as that is the best match for what it is. So again, in the 350 pts range, just like all of the other big toys.
As for how much one pays for Paskquisher? Don't care. He shouldn't even exist as an option in any Codex, so yes, price him to the moon, but don't use him as any sort of rational reference point when we talk balance.
Finally, that 600 pt Baneblade cost is more correct than not.
According to Army Builder, I have the Baneblade (Apoc 6E) at 575 pts when fitted with 2 sponsons, 625 with 4 sponsons. Only under Escalation is the BB at 525 points with 2 sponsons, but it's back up at 625 with 4 sponsons. Near as I can tell, GW pegs the Baneblade at 600-ish points, and has done so pretty consistently since the first FW models came out over a decade ago. Over 8+ years, the BB has been a modeling / collector mainstay, but never competitive, because it's always been 600-ish points when fitted properly (and 4 sponsons is always the correct fit for a Baneblade). The recent sanity in pricing things like the IK and WK has only highlighted how badly-priced the BB has been.
The Transport 40 Stormlord? 530 pts with 2 sponsons; 580 fitted properly with 4 sponsons. As a semi-mobile bunker it's not bad, but again, 600-ish points.
Sure, the Shadowsword can be as little as 505-ish points (A6 / Esc), but it's not anywhere close to pulling its weight when compared with a 720-pt Warhound Titan with a max Turbolaser fit. And the "free" option for Targeters vs Lascannon? Ugh.
But what do you get for 410 pts? Banehammer. For which you sitll need to pay +50 pts for the sponsons, making the real price 460 pts, not 410. Firepower is barely equal to a pair of regular Russes, but it adds Transport 25? Sorry, no.
And the counterpoint to any/all of them? The Imperial Knight.
For 375 pts, you get a basic Knight Paladin, with a double-shot Battlecannon *and* a S(D) CCW. For +50 pts, upgrade the CCW for an Avenger Gatling Cannon. And/or tack on secondary weapon systems, which are generally good for points.
It's not the Wraithknight that obsoleted the Baneblade, but the Imperial Knights cannibalizing their own. This Tau thing weighing in at 360-400 pts only reinforces the price / power point that these kinds of things should sit at. And even if the WK were points bumped to 350 pts, it wouldn't change how bad the Baneblade family is.
tl;dr
1. Baneblade is overpriced, should cost 300-350 pts base, 350-400 with 4 sponsons.
2. Leman Russ is overpriced, should cost 125-150 pts base, 150-180 full kit.
3. Tau Knight is fairly priced.
4. Wraithknight is not really a problem.
5. Imperial Knight is fairly priced.
I want my Baneblades to be playable, competitive Codex:IG entries, just like this suit will be for the Tau. Thank you.
vercingatorix wrote: What would a tau suit that was a titan killer be armed with?
I'm just thinking that if it was actually capable of ending a wraithknight in one turn it would be "the new wraithknight".
If a GC with 10 strength 10 ignore cover api shot cannon dropped it would be absolutely devastating to everything. Basically, you can't put enough firepower to kill a wraithknight on a model or it would murder the lesser races even worse.
No need to kill a WK in 1 turn, but in 2.
2 Super-heavy Railguns, each with 1 shot SD and a SD large blast option with gets hot. Not 4d6 S5 stuff that will never hurt a super-heavy.
The big units are generally not unfairly costed - they are fairly designed and competitively costed.
They're undercosted. It's very hard to find equivalent points (aside from units generally designed to engage units such as them) that will give you the same return on investment. 300pts of Dire Avenger, Falcons, Dark Reapers, Wraithlords, etc is not going to give you the same value as 300pts of Wraithknight.
The only problem is that you're bringing a rusty fork (an overpriced Guard Codex) to the battle, not a shiny new sword (i.e. Decurion, Craftworld, Knights, Marines) - that's your fault for not surfing the meta.
We're talking a difference of months here basically. I'm also not "surfing the meta" here because my point was that these big models weren't selling like hotcakes and being voted "fave" beforehand because they weren't auto-includes before.
Fairly priced, the BB variants should come in around 300-350 points (roughly half of 600), with 2 sponsons or AV14 side included.
As much as it would be obviously beneficial for me, I never saw anything really wrong with most Baneblade costing (except the basic BB getting bumped 75pts with sponsons for like no reason). ~400-500 was always pretty appropriate. They're maybe 10-15% overcosted with the sponson options currently.
More fundamentally, these units simply should not constitute that small a proportion of one's force. If we're playing games where a 2k list could ostensibly include three Baneblades with a company of mechanized infantry support (3 CAD's, each with CCS+2 vets, all loaded in Chimeras, with a Baneblade, for a total force of 75 infantry, 9 Chimeras, and 3 Superheavy tanks) that's something that really should be reserved for an "Apocalypse" game, or a small game of Epic Armageddon, not something to just put together and throw down for a pickup game. That's an issue with the scale of the game running off on itself.
And the Leman Russ? Hold on a sec. In the Leman Russ thread, didn't some random goofball state that the majority of Russ variants are overcosted?
the LRBT and Demolisher are basically too expensive as single weapon platforms and non-functional with other weapons, the Vanquisher is actually amusingly bad at being an anti-tank unit with the way vehicle kill works now, the Executioner is simply far too likely to kill itself (over a 6 turn game a plasma equipped tank will kill itself on average without the enemy having to do anything), and the FW Annihilator faces the same problem the Vanquisher does.
You'll note I had specific issues with these variants and specific rules interactions. It's not a matter of costing so much as their actual functionality. I actually think that Eradicators, Exterminators, and Punishers are pretty allright. The issues with the above variants I explained pretty clearly, in that they have specific functionality issues (e.g. the Executioner being likely to kill itself without an enemy having to devote any effort towards it).
Pretending for a moment that quote is accurate *and* the poster actually knows something about the Imperial Guard, *and* that he has some reasonable clue what Leman Russ tank variants ought to cost for how they perform in the current meta. If so, the LRBT should be more like 125 pts, and 140 for the Demolisher, instead of the overpriced 150 & 170. With the Leman Russ baseline corrected, a Baneblade should be priced like a Leman Russ + a Demolisher combined, as that is the best match for what it is. So again, in the 350 pts range, just like all of the other big toys.
I wouldn't argue that those prices would be more appropriate, but a Baneblade is bringing triple the hull points, vastly superior CC resiliency, and much bigger guns and able to independently target its weapons, is worth a lot more than ~260pts.
I say this as someone who owns 4 Baneblades and thinks that the IG are in dire need of help. That's simply an absurdly cheap price for something of that scale and capability, and just drives & reinforces the absurd level of power creep we're seeing and contributing to the dramatic devaluing of units like the Leman Russ tank. You couldn't get that level of firepower and resiliency out of the same investment in any other combination of units, and that's an issue.
As for how much one pays for Paskquisher? Don't care. He shouldn't even exist as an option in any Codex, so yes, price him to the moon, but don't use him as any sort of rational reference point when we talk balance.
On what basis? Just a personal subjective one? There's hardly anything broken about him, he unit is generally considered pretty good without being overpowered, just from a game-balance perspective I don't see anything wrong with the comparison. Just because you don't like the unit concept doesn't mean he can't be a valid basis for comparison.
According to Army Builder, I have the Baneblade (Apoc 6E) at 575 pts when fitted with 2 sponsons, 625 with 4 sponsons. Only under Escalation is the BB at 525 points with 2 sponsons, but it's back up at 625 with 4 sponsons. Near as I can tell, GW pegs the Baneblade at 600-ish points, and has done so pretty consistently since the first FW models came out over a decade ago.
FW had BB's at ~640 in 3E with no quad-sponson option (and Shafdowswords at ~535?) and yes back then they were painfully overcosted (mainly because the damage table was absurdly punitive).
GW made them 500 in the first outing of Apocalypse, with sponsons (600pts with quad sponsons). For some reason they bumped it up to 525 without any sponsons and 575 with sponsons and 625 with double sponsons in Escalation & 6E Apoc, but most are still closer to 500 than 600 even with sponsons, some under 500.
Over 8+ years, the BB has been a modeling / collector mainstay, but never competitive, because it's always been 600-ish points when fitted properly (and 4 sponsons is always the correct fit for a Baneblade).
I've only ever put 1 set on most because they look silly with two and because that second sponson set has such major LoS issues (can't shoot through the turret/sponson housing in front of it) that they're usually just not worth putting on.
I think more to the point however, until very recently, you couldn't just bring superheavies & gargantuan creatures to just *any* game, they were restricted to Apocalypse games.
You know, it's annoying that you keep mono-focusing on the WK, when I've repeatedly stated that the class of light Superheavies / GCs to be starting at 350 points or so.
Second, in that "matter of months", GW released several new-style Codices that defined a new meta.
Third, 40k *is* Apocalypse, ever since Knights came out. You might as well argue against the tide coming in and night falling. What's done is done, and you should accept it.
Fourth, it's really grating that you insist on acting as if I ever claimed 260 when I've specifically clarified 350 for the basic BB, and shown the clear derivation of where my number comes from. It's like you're not even bothering to read what you quote. Despite the appearance of addressing my comments point-by-point.
Also, ipso facto, any/every Knight-class model provides generally similar power and toughness in the 350-point range that defines the class. Even moreso when fielded in the Codex specific formations. To claim that the BB should not be competitive with the rest of the class is more shouting against the tide.
Me hoping Pask gets the Doomrider / Brother Bethor treatment is more realistic than your campaign to undo the reality of Knight-class models defining 7E 40k.
As I clearly demonstrated via several examples, the models that actually hit the table are closer to 600 points. The junk variants and no sponson versions are fewer points, but nobody fields them, so they might as well not exist.
At this point, I am tired of dealing with your counterfactuals here, because you're just making stuff up in your attempts to refute my statements and wishlist the very successful and popular Knight-class of models out of the game.
JohnHwangDD wrote: You know, it's annoying that you keep mono-focusing on the WK, when I've repeatedly stated that the class of light Superheavies / GCs to be starting at 350 points or so.
Again, I think I've mentioned Knights repeatedly as well, the WK is just the easiest punching bag because it's the most egregious.
Second, in that "matter of months", GW released several new-style Codices that defined a new meta.
And they switch this every year or so, just as the 2014 books were all significantly toned down from the from the 2013 books and the 2012 DA/CSM books (DA might have been Jan 13, but I'll lump 'em in with CSM's) were toned down relative to the Ward-era 5E books. Who knows what 2016 will hold?.
Third, 40k *is* Apocalypse, ever since Knights came out. You might as well argue against the tide coming in and night falling. What's done is done, and you should accept it.
That's not really a response, you're just saying "well you can't change it, might as well not discuss it". You're not actually addressing the scale issue or problems with what we were talking about.
Fourth, it's really grating that you insist on acting as if I ever claimed 260 when I've specifically clarified 350 for the basic BB
That was a typo on my part, in my last post there. I have big fingers and the phone keyboard is small
However, when you said they should be half what they are now, ~260 is exactly what many would cost, just because you insist they all should always have 100pts worth of upgrades just because, doesn't change that.
That said, the point still stands for 300/350pt Baneblades, you're getting triple the value of a Russ tank (probably moreso since it is much more resistant to CC attacks, can't be shaken or have weapons destroyed, can independently target its weapons) for only about double the price. This devalues the Russ tank, and dramatically over-emphasizes investment in the Baneblade.
Also, ipso facto, any/every Knight-class model provides generally similar power and toughness in the 350-point range that defines the class.
A Knight does not offer the same firepower as a Baneblade. a Knight gives you 2 Battlecannon shots and a couple heavy stubbers, a Baneblade gives you significantly more firepower, an S10 pieplate and an S9 AP2 10" pieplate, with, at minimum, an autocannon and TL'd heavy bolter to boot. While the Knight has D melee attacks, it often won't be able to make effective use of both weapon sets in the same turn, especially the first two where such firepower is most important.
Likewise, while the Baneblade lacks the shield, it has 50% more hull points and better armor on the front and sides. With the 4+ save, the Knight can somwhat *match* the BB for resiliency in *one* arc, but it's not all-round the same toughness.
Me hoping Pask gets the Doomrider / Brother Bethor treatment is more realistic than your campaign to undo the reality of Knight-class models defining 7E 40k.
You're going off on a tangent here, my point was that the unit wasn't a bad basis for comparison in regards to the original statement and you wanted to discard it just because you apparently don't like the unit concept (which, admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of either).
As I clearly demonstrated via several examples, the models that actually hit the table are closer to 600 points.
If you're giving them basically every upgrade option (which, as I pointed out, is of minimal value) and only looking at a couple of variants.
The junk variants and no sponson versions are fewer points, but nobody fields them, so they might as well not exist.
If we're talking about making them potentially basically only 210pts (like the Doomhammer) then yes that becomes an altogether different issue. 200pt AV14 9 HP 25-40man capacity transports that can't be shaken or stunned would justifiably cause some heartburn.
At this point, I am tired of dealing with your counterfactuals here, because you're just making stuff up in your attempts to refute my statements and wishlist the very successful and popular Knight-class of models out of the game.
Well, you can call them whatever you want and put whatever words in my mouth you wish, you didn't actually address most of anything I said and are hand-waving the rest away, and are just reinforcing my original statement that these units are popular & successful *because* they're so cheap.
Doesn't actually make it counter-factual or mean I'm making anything up, you're just wanting to abandon the conversation
Holy crap. How many times are you going to fail to comprehend that that I'm pegging the standard (2-sponson) Baneblade at 350-ish points, like the rest of the light Supers?
If you're not going to bother reading what I write, stop replying.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Holy crap. How many times are you going to fail to comprehend that that I'm pegging the standard (2-sponson) Baneblade at 350-ish points, like the rest of the light Supers?
I got that, however that wasn't part of your original statement and your backtracking is primarily what I was addressing, and you're hand-waving away of every other point I was trying to make.
If we're pegging a quad sponson BB is packing 5 TL heavy bolters, 4 Lascannons, a 10" S9 SP2 pieplate, an autocannon, and a demolisher cannon with AV14/13/12 and 9HP, at 350pts. How on earth do you justify a kitted Russ at anything more than 100pts by comparison?
That said, if we're calling a 4 sponson BB 350pts, how cheap do you make a no-sponson BB? Are we going to call a naked BB 250pts? Again, relative to it's smaller cousins, this is simply an absurdly cheap price point.
This model nails the coffin for super heavies and Gargantuans dominating the game to a greater degree than ever before. I think we need to accept this and move on.
No, we shouldn't. That's the last thing we should do. Just because something bad is happening regularly or is accepted doesn't mean we should just accept it.
The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves
Go read that again, and actually try to comprehend what I wrote.
I wrote "A Baneblade costs something like 600 points". Not 525 or 410 or whatever the hell you're pulling out of your ass. 600.
I continued "roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart" which we know to be 360 or 295 points, because I actually gave those numbers above when I wrote "this [Tau] thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts."
Then I wrote "Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, " which is clearly 360 points, because that's what I had written.
Then you started making gak up about cut price Baneblades (after I had very clearly stated "something like 600" points) and 260 points (after I had very clearly written "comparable to this Tau suit, " which is clearly 360 points.")
Later, you started in on this side tangent for what you think Baneblades cost, ignoring what they look like on the table. And failing to understand that 575 points is closer to 600 points than 500 points.
Now, you're making gak up about how I said that the 4 sponson BB should be 350 points, when I had clearly pegged 350-ish for the 2 sponson version?
tl;dr
1. Baneblade is overpriced, should cost 300-350 pts base, 350-400 with 4 sponsons. 2. Leman Russ is overpriced, should cost 125-150 pts base, 150-180 full kit. 3. Tau Knight is fairly priced. 4. Wraithknight is not really a problem. 5. Imperial Knight is fairly priced.
And now you're claming that I'm backtracking? Despite the fact that I have been clear about my price points from the beginning? Point values that you yourself quoted?
Stop with the trolling. Because that's what your posts have devolved to. Trolling. Next one is getting reported as such.
EDIT: Nevermind, I'll let it rest, JohnHwangDD, feel free to report whatever you want. I did mis-read the part on the sponson's, for some reason read that as "two-set", point to you on that, however, ultimately, I still think that the price points that you're mentioning are way too low.
Meh, I'm hoping farsight will get a buff and applicable price-readjustment and be made LoW. I'm not a fan of big mecha myself. Although I do like the ghostkeel, after I do something about the doofy head.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Meh, I'm hoping farsight will get a buff and applicable price-readjustment and be made LoW. I'm not a fan of big mecha myself. Although I do like the ghostkeel, after I do something about the doofy head.
It'll be interesting to see if the Farsight Enclave book remains valid or if they'll update it too. Unfortunatley mostly what I've seen it used for is to just spam extra Riptides
Many people have asked this, whether openly or in their heads.....
.....How is that not a Walker-Class Vehicle with Armour Values?! Is Games Workshop trying to slowly transition from walkers being vehicles and treated like meat-bags?
Da Kommizzar wrote: Many people have asked this, whether openly or in their heads.....
.....How is that not a Walker-Class Vehicle with Armour Values?! Is Games Workshop trying to slowly transition from walkers being vehicles and treated like meat-bags?
No, one will notice that Titans remain walkers.
It's just a way to make them more gimmicky. You can add more special rules and stat variations to GC's than you can walkers, and in most cases you can make them significantly tougher.
Da Kommizzar wrote: How is that not a Walker-Class Vehicle with Armour Values?! Is Games Workshop trying to slowly transition from walkers being vehicles and treated like meat-bags?
High-tech forces (Eldar, Tau & GKs) get GMCs.
Low-tech forces (Orks, Imperials) are stuck with Walkers.
This allows GW to have different kinds of things to create artificial distinctions of a sort.
Savageconvoy wrote: There is never really a clear line on what the difference is between the two. Really they just need to get rid of walkers and GMC.
Aye. It used to be that MC's/GC's were living things, and the old Wraithlord had a case as it was made of Wraithbone and inhabited by a spirit instead of piloted, but they've just removed the line completely.
Da Kommizzar wrote: How is that not a Walker-Class Vehicle with Armour Values?! Is Games Workshop trying to slowly transition from walkers being vehicles and treated like meat-bags?
High-tech forces (Eldar, Tau & GKs) get GMCs.
Low-tech forces (Orks, Imperials) are stuck with Walkers.
This allows GW to have different kinds of things to create artificial distinctions of a sort.
So why is it that Eldar also have Walkers and CSM have GCs? If any distinction is artificial, it's your own.
Baneblades isn't overpriced due to firepower, it has 3 more hullpoints than the knights. If it were a six hullpoints superheavy you knock 100 points off. (Superheavies have a minimum 6 hullpoints and start at 100 points for those six. Then each additional 3 hullpoints adds 100 points to the total.)
Leman Russ tanks are costed appropriately, if you add the caveat that heavy vehicles ignore the penalty for ordinance.
And lastly, I believe the wraithknight's points cost may be a typo and should be exactly 100 points more expensive.
If you want to see how things stack up, you can build them in the vehicle/monstrous creature design rules linked in my signature.
Quickjager wrote: Anyone else see the new pics that show the crew of the suit is apparently OPEN-TOPPED? Wth is with this idiocy.
What is realistically going to be able to fire into that cabin?
Indirect fire ordnance or things that are flying/perched really high above the Stormsurge.
It is up there with the Dreadknight. Also the model is so unbalanced (weight wise) they made rules for anchoring pistons just so people wouldn't question what they were doing there.
I keep wondering if this thing would have been better off on a Skimmer chassis.... How long till Tau just abandon vehicles entirely in favor more and more stupid mech-suits?
I wouldn't be so bothered if Tau where the only ones with 'Big Giant Robots,' that could easily be the factions 'gimmick' and I highly approve of each faction having something that marks them as unique. The problem is this suit is 'just another Big Giant Robot' in a game that already has so many spread across many Factions. Tau are not even the faction that does the 'Big Giant Robot' concept the best, even the fluff acknowledges this when it informs us the Supremacy Suit was created because the Tau had "nothing" to deal with Titans or Wraith-knights.
TheCustomLime wrote: They had Tigersharks and Mantas. Both Titankillers that are far more practical that the Tuna suit.
Both of which are aircraft, and as such are subject to weather conditions and AA. Not to mention there are places where aircraft can't go.
There's a reason why we still have ground forces today.
So it does make sense that the Tau would want a land-based alternative.
However, at S10 I'm not sure GW successfully conveyed its titan-killing role.
TheCustomLime wrote: They had Tigersharks and Mantas. Both Titankillers that are far more practical that the Tuna suit.
Both of which are aircraft, and as such are subject to weather conditions and AA. Not to mention there are places where aircraft can't go.
There's a reason why we still have ground forces today.
So it does make sense that the Tau would want a land-based alternative.
However, at S10 I'm not sure GW successfully conveyed its titan-killing role.
Yeah but Titans are massive, colorful, slow and have no anti-air defenses. If Tau have air superiority then Titans are pretty much sitting ducks. It's the problem Germany ran into during the Western front from '44 on. Sure, a King Tiger is a nice tank and can blow the crap out of any Sherman that had the gall to show it's face from even 1km away but that doesn't matter much when the Allies had free reign of the skies. Those big, slow tanks sure made for nice targets for Allied Fighter-bombers.
I understand the reasoning for a land based Titan killer as there could be some fights that can happen with Titans being involved but no air support available but why not just stick a Titan killer gun on a hover tank? That would be far more practical that a huge mecha-suit. But nope GW just has to have their big stompy blammy battle bots.
I hope that SH Skimmer Tank rumor pans out from FW. It claimed it was an idea being considered, so don't expect it any time soon if they do decide to take a shot at it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Titans themselves may not have AA defenses, but you would have to be a fairly incompetent general to not give it an escort.
Titans also do not care about weather conditions.
But yes, once the AA is down a Titan would be a prime target for an airstrike.
Perhaps that is what the Stormsurge is really for; to take down AA quickly and efficiently.
Still needs S D though.
And yes, more skimmer varients would be nice. There are what, 7 different types of suits now? I get that the suit is an iconic Tau thing but come on.
Agreed. I think the problem is that GW wants to appeal to a younger audience and that audience would appreciate a big stompy blammy battle bot more than a hover tank.
TheCustomLime wrote: That would be far more practical that a huge mecha-suit. But nope GW just has to have their big stompy blammy battle bots.
Given the sales of the super tuna (above and beyond expectations) I wouldn't say GW is off the mark in giving players what they want.
You can see most of the whining in this thread is that it's not a big enough robot, and it doesn't have big enough guns.
I'd say that is somewhat revealing of what some players expect these days.
Well, that's because a hover tank with a twin linked S cannon isn't as good as big stomply blammy battle bot because MCs are better than vehicles in 7th ed. Better rules+Decent model=$$$
I do prefer the idea of the mobile air fortresses being the Tau's true titan killers. Especially since this seems to be more geared towards artillery support than the standard attempts to shoot D weapons from beyond the target's range.
I just wish they made either aircraft worth taking, with flight stands that can hold them, and better priced.
Also the open top is completely stupid. It shows that the pilots are operating a machine and not really plugged into it like standard suits. They are very clearly using targetting equipment so the open top provides nothing for visibility and just makes the giant warmachine susceptible to small arms and anti-personnel munitions.
I hope there is a way to cover it, if not the rules should be changed to Open Topped Super Heavy Walker.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Titans themselves may not have AA defenses, but you would have to be a fairly incompetent general to not give it an escort.
Titans also do not care about weather conditions.
But yes, once the AA is down a Titan would be a prime target for an airstrike.
Perhaps that is what the Stormsurge is really for; to take down AA quickly and efficiently.
Still needs S D though.
And yes, more skimmer varients would be nice. There are what, 7 different types of suits now? I get that the suit is an iconic Tau thing but come on.
Agreed. I think the problem is that GW wants to appeal to a younger audience and that audience would appreciate a big stompy blammy battle bot more than a hover tank.
I'm 30 and I love the KX139. It's more or less the coolest mecha I've ever seen. The 128 isn't that cool, on the other hand.
I like big suits AND tanks. For me, Tau tanks are the coolest in the game. Still, I like suits as well.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Titans themselves may not have AA defenses, but you would have to be a fairly incompetent general to not give it an escort.
Titans also do not care about weather conditions. But yes, once the AA is down a Titan would be a prime target for an airstrike.
Perhaps that is what the Stormsurge is really for; to take down AA quickly and efficiently. Still needs S D though.
And yes, more skimmer varients would be nice. There are what, 7 different types of suits now? I get that the suit is an iconic Tau thing but come on.
Agreed. I think the problem is that GW wants to appeal to a younger audience and that audience would appreciate a big stompy blammy battle bot more than a hover tank.
I'm 30 and I love the KX139. It's more or less the coolest mecha I've ever seen. The 128 isn't that cool, on the other hand.
I like big suits AND tanks. For me, Tau tanks are the coolest in the game. Still, I like suits as well.
I happen to like both, actually. The 139 is the better model, but I do have a slight fondness for the 128. I would give it two extra legs and give it a bigger head though; that tiny little crisis suit head looks silly. Why is it even there? There's clearly a vision slit in the front. Also, the supposed open hatch is pretty dumb. I still can't find it, but that's probably due to picture quality.
I just would have preferred more skimmers instead of more suits. Soon the Tau codex will consist of nothing but suits and a single kroot named Steve.
EDIT : Ok, I see where the opening is. Its really fething dumb.
Why on earth is it open topped like that? What, so the pilots can stand up and have a peek? Wanted to shave a few space bucks off of each suit?
EDIT: Nvm, it says you can glue on an armored plate onto it. Though why you would want to paint the crew if you can never see them again is a mystery to me.
TheCustomLime wrote: Why on earth is it open topped like that? What, so the pilots can stand up and have a peek? Wanted to shave a few space bucks off of each suit?
EDIT: Nvm, it says you can glue on an armored plate onto it. Though why you would want to paint the crew if you can never see them again is a mystery to me.
I don't think they mean on top, covering the pilots. I think they meant straight on. Otherwise they would show versions of it covered.
TheCustomLime wrote: Why on earth is it open topped like that? What, so the pilots can stand up and have a peek? Wanted to shave a few space bucks off of each suit?
EDIT: Nvm, it says you can glue on an armored plate onto it. Though why you would want to paint the crew if you can never see them again is a mystery to me.
Same reason Rhino's and Land Raiders have interior pieces with stowed bolters and screens and the like. It's a bone GW can toss to the people who just want another feature to paint (though I think the placement of that cockpit, from a design perspective, is insane and *very* thinly armored) and can use to accentuate the price a bit more upward. For most people, it's not something they'll bother with.
TheCustomLime wrote: Why on earth is it open topped like that? What, so the pilots can stand up and have a peek? Wanted to shave a few space bucks off of each suit?
EDIT: Nvm, it says you can glue on an armored plate onto it. Though why you would want to paint the crew if you can never see them again is a mystery to me.
Same reason Rhino's and Land Raiders have interior pieces with stowed bolters and screens and the like. It's a bone GW can toss to the people who just want another feature to paint (though I think the placement of that cockpit, from a design perspective, is insane and *very* thinly armored) and can use to accentuate the price a bit more upward. For most people, it's not something they'll bother with.
I actually paint the interior of my rhinos myself . Though that's different because you can open the back hatch and have a peek. Front in the case of the Land Raider.
Wait, if this thing really is open topped... that... that doesn't.. what? A lucky hit from a mortar could take this thing out. Did someone at the GW studio look at a WW2 open topped SPG and though, "You know, artillery seems to be open topped! I should make this massive towering walker that the Tau seems to love to put on the front line open topped too!". Back in WW2 in made sense since armoring up wasn't as much of a concern for an artillery tank as having a good view and even then it was dangerous. But the Tau have enhanced optics and heat seeking missiles.
You know, some Earth caste engineer probably thinks he's really funny for successfully submitting a silly design feature like that. Or budget cuts to big suit manufacturing forced the Tau to shave some ceramic materials off production.
Yoyoyo wrote: I think if your 1ft high plastic model is hit by a real-life mortar, that open-topped crew compartment is going to be the least of your worries
Hey now the only Tau suit deserving of a mortaring is the Ta'una.
TheCustomLime wrote: Why on earth is it open topped like that? What, so the pilots can stand up and have a peek? Wanted to shave a few space bucks off of each suit?
EDIT: Nvm, it says you can glue on an armored plate onto it. Though why you would want to paint the crew if you can never see them again is a mystery to me.
Same reason Rhino's and Land Raiders have interior pieces with stowed bolters and screens and the like. It's a bone GW can toss to the people who just want another feature to paint (though I think the placement of that cockpit, from a design perspective, is insane and *very* thinly armored) and can use to accentuate the price a bit more upward. For most people, it's not something they'll bother with.
I actually paint the interior of my rhinos myself . Though that's different because you can open the back hatch and have a peek. Front in the case of the Land Raider.
O_o
Wow, yeah I never bothered, for the additional effort and headache I just never found it worth it
Savageconvoy wrote: I just wish they made either aircraft worth taking, with flight stands that can hold them, and better priced.
Bwahaha, functional GW flight stands? Please. Never gonna happen.
I think they're simply showing off interior detail, because it was sculpted and produced. The idea that the actual model takes the field looking like as an open-topped superheavy walker, but is rules-wise a GC is kinda silly.
TheCustomLime wrote: They had Tigersharks and Mantas. Both Titankillers that are far more practical that the Tuna suit.
Both of which are aircraft, and as such are subject to weather conditions and AA. Not to mention there are places where aircraft can't go.
There's a reason why we still have ground forces today.
So it does make sense that the Tau would want a land-based alternative.
However, at S10 I'm not sure GW successfully conveyed its titan-killing role.
Yeah but Titans are massive, colorful, slow and have no anti-air defenses. If Tau have air superiority then Titans are pretty much sitting ducks. It's the problem Germany ran into during the Western front from '44 on. Sure, a King Tiger is a nice tank and can blow the crap out of any Sherman that had the gall to show it's face from even 1km away but that doesn't matter much when the Allies had free reign of the skies. Those big, slow tanks sure made for nice targets for Allied Fighter-bombers.
I understand the reasoning for a land based Titan killer as there could be some fights that can happen with Titans being involved but no air support available but why not just stick a Titan killer gun on a hover tank? That would be far more practical that a huge mecha-suit. But nope GW just has to have their big stompy blammy battle bots.
Additionally, the American long 76mm could penetrate a Tiger from the front with AP and close range. This fact is little known, because most of the AP ammo was with the tank destroyers. They already have what should be a titan killer: the Hammerhead.
It should be, but with the anti-armour rules, strong single shots are far less effective than medium power, high RoF. Although I certainly wouldn't say no to a baneblade-like tau tank. A giant skimmer with a TL Heavy railgun as it's main weapon. You could probably balance it like how the LR and HH are balanced, with he baneblade being tougher, but the tau tank more moible, with stronger weapons. And fluff-wise it would make more sense.
The way I would do it is simple:
Create a Vehicle Weapon list, and a form of signature system list and a support system list for Vehicles
Make Vehicles along the same line as crisis suits, with a number of available 'slots' to be filled
TheCustomLime wrote: Why on earth is it open topped like that? What, so the pilots can stand up and have a peek? Wanted to shave a few space bucks off of each suit?
EDIT: Nvm, it says you can glue on an armored plate onto it. Though why you would want to paint the crew if you can never see them again is a mystery to me.
Same reason Rhino's and Land Raiders have interior pieces with stowed bolters and screens and the like. It's a bone GW can toss to the people who just want another feature to paint (though I think the placement of that cockpit, from a design perspective, is insane and *very* thinly armored) and can use to accentuate the price a bit more upward. For most people, it's not something they'll bother with.
I actually paint the interior of my rhinos myself . Though that's different because you can open the back hatch and have a peek. Front in the case of the Land Raider.
O_o
Wow, yeah I never bothered, for the additional effort and headache I just never found it worth it
It really isn't it. It's one of those things you kind of have to point out to some looking at it. But for marine crap I find myself going an extra mile for whatever reason.
Not familiar with the Fluff but do Tau have some kind of automation? That if the crew were killed it would run on a subroutine or someone could remote in and pilot it?
Maybe thats the case for it being a GC?
I mean the wraithknight is a bunch of spirit stones yes?
At this point it isn't what is fluffy/toeing-the-line it is just acknowledging walkers SUCK and making the model have playable rules. I mean it can't be a superheavy walker now, the Riptide would have to be rolled back.
WK made sense fluff-wise because it was made out of wraithbone and had a spirit in it. Tau DO have a way to make things have acceptable A.I. but... it is still metal, why the feth does fleshbane work on it.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It should be, but with the anti-armour rules, strong single shots are far less effective than medium power, high RoF. Although I certainly wouldn't say no to a baneblade-like tau tank. A giant skimmer with a TL Heavy railgun as it's main weapon. You could probably balance it like how the LR and HH are balanced, with he baneblade being tougher, but the tau tank more moible, with stronger weapons. And fluff-wise it would make more sense.
Like a Tau version of the Eldar Cobra almost? I could get behind that. I'm a fan of big robots and big tanks.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It should be, but with the anti-armour rules, strong single shots are far less effective than medium power, high RoF. Although I certainly wouldn't say no to a baneblade-like tau tank. A giant skimmer with a TL Heavy railgun as it's main weapon. You could probably balance it like how the LR and HH are balanced, with he baneblade being tougher, but the tau tank more moible, with stronger weapons. And fluff-wise it would make more sense.
Like a Tau version of the Eldar Cobra almost? I could get behind that. I'm a fan of big robots and big tanks.
Pretty much hear
RandomNoob wrote: Not familiar with the Fluff but do Tau have some kind of automation? That if the crew were killed it would run on a subroutine or someone could remote in and pilot it?
Maybe thats the case for it being a GC?
I mean the wraithknight is a bunch of spirit stones yes?
They have AI, as well as "engrams" that are sort of like a copy of a living tau's mind. Tehy could probebly use those. But I would think just sticking some armour on top would be simpler.
This thing looks GOD AWFUL. And I don't just mean that it looks totally slowed. 360 points? I'd MUCH rather have 2 fully loaded riptides for that. Extra wounds, an invuln, a 2+Sv and FnP for less pts? Yes please. I suppose you get more firepower but at what cost? 2 Riptides can be in 2 places at once. It's none too mobile and one of its weapons wants to be within 10" to be effective... That's just bad news. Tau do NOT get that close with their big shinies. And who was the genius that strapped a flamer to this thing? Who would ever not take the burst cannons or airbursting frag? Just for the range if not for anything else, since there's no way you'd fire anything but the cluster rockets for overwatch. I think this thing will end up being a giant broadside in every list. The 72" ordnance pie plates of doom are too good not to pass up as a ridiculous alpha strike of rape.
Ok but can we talk about how DUMB this thing looks for a second guys? Its default pose is it taking a dump on the battlefield, which is fitting considering it will be pooping on your opponents most likely, but come on. And why can't it have ARMS?! Mechs look better with arms. The broadside has arms for its giant missile pods. This thing could have gotten arms. And why the hell is the PILOT VISIBLE?! WHO THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE A PILOT WHO CAN BE SHOT AT BUT NOT SEE OUT OF HIS GIANT ROBOT?
WHY THE HELL CAN YOU TAKE 3 OF THEM IN A SQUAD?! What kind of moron would take more than one of these when they have Ld8? That is just asking for 400 pts to run off the table on you.
My mistake, apologies. I actually faced an army with an enclave today they psychic shrieked the drek out of my guys. It could be an effective counter to this creature with its low Ld it could REALLY hurt you, up to 10 wounds is alot. I was playing Tau of course, that spell can be just brutal on low Ld units like my poor sniper drones... I was against ravenwing and his enclave was running around on bikes of course, so they were able to get in my face.
