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The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 14:42:56


Post by: Sledgehammer


The imperial Guard, is one of the most numerous and prolific fighting forces in the galaxy. Within its ranks are an innumerable amount of men, women, vehicles, weaponry and aircraft. Some say that its strength is derived from its numbers, its vehicles, and its structure but as we all know military strength is relative and many of the Imperium's enemies possess these traits as well. The strength of the guard is not in its numbers, its technology or its production, but rather in the hearts of man. It is the guardsman that volunteers, it is the guardsman that storms the breach, it is the guardsman that kills, it is the guardsman that holds the line, and it is the guardsman that dies. They have fought on the beaches, in the streets, and in the air. The indomitable will of the guardsman holds out against the terrors of deamons, the power of witches, and the wrath of gods. It is he in his weakness that has become strong.

The guard is organized in such a way as to take advantage of its numerical superiority. Within this structure the guardsmen are treated like mere numbers. Even when organized as such the guardsman does not lose his spirit, his will, or his humanity. It is in the human spirit that the guard derives its identity. Sadly the guard is lacking the spirit that it should have. The guardsman is useless, and his squad is worth little more.

I guess what I'm saying is that the guardsman needs to be put back into the guard.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 14:44:34


Post by: Resin Glazed Guardsman


A price drop in platoons and make lasguns worth a damn please


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 15:06:53


Post by: UrsoerTheSquid


This has been discussed in one of the largest threads I have seen on this site:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651867.page

But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 15:37:11


Post by: Sledgehammer


UrsoerTheSquid wrote:


But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.

That does nothing to alleviate the lack of character. That is a mechanic that replaces the dead guardsmen in a squad with a carbon copy of the now dead. What that does is it makes the guardsman faceless, and replaceable. There is no character in carbon copy schmucks. Furthermore there is no real utility value in that mechanic; it makes the unit more "resilient", but there really isn't a point in targeting them if they are unable to do any significant damage and come back ad-infinitum. This works great for conscripts, and kreigsmen as it gives character to the force. The difference here is distinguishing the characteristics of the force from those of the guardsman.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 16:06:25


Post by: Ignatius


 Sledgehammer wrote:
UrsoerTheSquid wrote:


But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.

That does nothing to alleviate the lack of character. That is a mechanic that replaces the dead guardsmen in a squad with a carbon copy of the now dead. What that does is it makes the guardsman faceless, and replaceable. There is no character in carbon copy schmucks. Furthermore there is no real utility value in that mechanic; it makes the unit more "resilient", but there really isn't a point in targeting them if they are unable to do any significant damage and come back ad-infinitum. This works great for conscripts, and kreigsmen as it gives character to the force. The difference here is distinguishing the characteristics of the force from those of the guardsman.


Okay I'll bite. You must have some idea how to achieve this "re-characterization". How do you think it can be done?

I add character by adding pieces of equipment and posing. For example a few guardsmen may have an inordinate amount of grenades, another few will sling their rifles and be dual wielding trench knives, another few will be swinging swords, their backpacks will have different equipment placements etc. etc. to the point where the guys just holding their rifles are in the minority. Is this what you have in mind or were you thinking of something in the rules?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 16:30:06


Post by: Brother SRM


If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 17:08:37


Post by: Ignatius


 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.


I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 17:11:20


Post by: Selym


 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
A price drop in platoons and make lasguns worth a damn please


Range 24" / Str 3 / Ap - / Salvo 2/3

FRFSRF adds +1 to both salvo values.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 17:43:31


Post by: Sledgehammer


Space Marines have tac marines, devastators, assault marines, vanguard vets, stern guard vets, scouts, terminators, and other infantry units.

There is no designated role for infantry units beside what weapon you give them and what save you give them (camo cloaks or carapace).

You can't have a saw gunner suppress an enemy and then have a lighter infantry squad flank the position and take the enemy out with automatic fire.

There are no ambush units that can lay in wait and pounce on an enemy (even then, they probably couldn't do enough damage to warrant their usage).

There is no true option for close combat with the guard. Some guys probably have close combat training or are even experienced and should know how to at least swing a weapon. (look at hive gangers for example)

Where are my airborne troops, shouldn't they be able to move after a deep strike? (yes I know about Elysians)

Storm troopers are over costed guardsmen with ap3 lasguns.

Heavy weapons squads make absolutely no sense if you try to equate how they should work, and how they work with their rules.

Lasguns are unable to do anything. It takes 30 shots for guard to drop 1 decurion necron warrior.

What I want is for there to be different rules and abilities that different squads can use. Right now every guardsman has pretty much the same role and goes about executing it in the same way aside from what special weapons they have.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 17:51:24


Post by: Experiment 626


 Selym wrote:
 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
A price drop in platoons and make lasguns worth a damn please


Range 24" / Str 3 / Ap - / Salvo 2/3

FRFSRF adds +1 to both salvo values.


Salvo would be an abysmal rule that would only serve to further crapify the basic Guardsman. Mobility is key nowadays in 40k thanks to Malestrom missions, and Salvo weapons are terrible in their current iteration expect on Relentless platforms.

Instead, just give the Lasgun the ap6 is should ideally have... ALL the background & various novels and such go on at length about lasgun shots tearing through standard flak vests, while 2-3+ direct hits will typically put down those protected by full flak armour.
Add in a special rule that allows Guardsmen to 'Overcharge' their shooting once per game, (representing the ability of the lasgun to burn an entire power pack on just a handful of more powerful shots), that gives the unit ap4.

Regimental Doctrines ala Chapter Tactics would also be amazaballs to see return as well, along with the return of a Feral Regiment unit that comes with pistols/ccw's in place of a basic lasgun, and is limited to 'lower tech' upgrades such as flamers & demo charges.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 17:52:04


Post by: Ignatius


 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is no designated role for infantry units beside what weapon you give them and what save you give them (camo cloaks or carapace).

You can't have a saw gunner suppress an enemy and then have a lighter infantry squad flank the position and take the enemy out with automatic fire.

There are no ambush units that can lay in wait and pounce on an enemy (even then, they probably couldn't do enough damage to warrant their usage).


To be fair, this is a function of the rules in the game. No army can really do this in any meaningful way so you can't use it against the Guard. Not saying there shouldn't be, but that's not what Warhammer is.

What I want is for there to be different rules and abilities that different squads can use. Right now every guardsman has pretty much the same role and goes about executing it in the same way aside from what special weapons they have.


We have Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads, Conscripts, Guardsmen, Veterans, Scions, etc. We have the tools, just not the right rules to apply them in the sense you are looking for. Which is a shame.

And I play CC Guard, which isn't terribly competitive but none the less is just about as good as regular Guard. WS 3 seems to suggest that Guardsmen do know how to swing a weapon, otherwise they would be WS 2 like Tau. With Guardsmen you just have to find the right force multipliers. Like in my CC army, the use of Commissars (more power weapon attacks), priests (War Hymns), and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors (Rad, Psychtroke Grenades/ Hammerhand) adds a lot of punch to the unit and allows it to function in the manner it is supposed to.

All that said, I still agree with pretty much everything you've said. I want Guard to be THE army to choose if you want to play a faction that will almost never be the same between two players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:

Instead, just give the Lasgun the ap6 is should ideally have... ALL the background & various novels and such go on at length about lasgun shots tearing through standard flak vests, while 2-3+ direct hits will typically put down those protected by full flak armour.
Add in a special rule that allows Guardsmen to 'Overcharge' their shooting once per game, (representing the ability of the lasgun to burn an entire power pack on just a handful of more powerful shots), that gives the unit ap4.


I don't think AP 6 would do anything in terms of making the average Guardsman better.

Regimental Doctrines ala Chapter Tactics would also be amazaballs to see return as well, along with the return of a Feral Regiment unit that comes with pistols/ccw's in place of a basic lasgun, and is limited to 'lower tech' upgrades such as flamers & demo charges.


I would rather see the return of the Doctrine that allows a Guardsmen to purchase a pistol and CCW to replace their lasgun, than to see them get them for free with more limited access to other things.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 17:59:54


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Ignatius wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is no designated role for infantry units beside what weapon you give them and what save you give them (camo cloaks or carapace).

You can't have a saw gunner suppress an enemy and then have a lighter infantry squad flank the position and take the enemy out with automatic fire.

There are no ambush units that can lay in wait and pounce on an enemy (even then, they probably couldn't do enough damage to warrant their usage).


To be fair, this is a function of the rules in the game. No army can really do this in any meaningful way so you can't use it against the Guard. Not saying there shouldn't be, but that's not what Warhammer is.

What I want is for there to be different rules and abilities that different squads can use. Right now every guardsman has pretty much the same role and goes about executing it in the same way aside from what special weapons they have.


We have Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads, Conscripts, Guardsmen, Veterans, Scions, etc. We have the tools, just not the right rules to apply them in the sense you are looking for. Which is a shame.

And I play CC Guard, which isn't terribly competitive but none the less is just about as good as regular Guard. WS 3 seems to suggest that Guardsmen do know how to swing a weapon, otherwise they would be WS 2 like Tau. With Guardsmen you just have to find the right force multipliers. Like in my CC army, the use of Commissars (more power weapon attacks), priests (War Hymns), and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors (Rad, Psychtroke Grenades/ Hammerhand) adds a lot of punch to the unit and allows it to function in the manner it is supposed to.

All that said, I still agree with pretty much everything you've said. I want Guard to be THE army to choose if you want to play a faction that will almost never be the same between two players.
Order for imperial guard "suppressing fire" should be changed to something like this. "The squad must make a shooting attack. If an enemy model is killed or wounded, the unit cannot move during its next movement phase. If the player so wishes he or she may choose to move, but will immediatly be shot again by the heavy weapon squad. Furthermore during the next shooting phase the unit suffers -1 to its ballistic skill.

Assault squad. Has assault 3 range 18 lasguns. Have stealth and infiltrate. If within 9 inches of an enemy unit the shots are instead counted as strength 4.

I just made that up on the spot, but that at least somewhat fits my idea.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 18:44:19


Post by: Kanluwen


 Ignatius wrote:
 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.


I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

Oh please. The Guard doctrines really were not "characterful". They consisted of benefits with no real trade-offs and as fond as I was of the system, it was tedious to continually see the same lists over and over.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:16:21


Post by: Talizvar


How to make a lasgun worth a darn?

That is tough with a D6 system.

I would say for ANY las-type weapon: add that if you roll a 6 to wound, roll another die: on a 6 the shot is rending (1 in 32 chance).

Best I can say is to add as a "lucky shot" by weight of numbers or every once and a while the guns overcharge a shot.

Any other suggestions?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:22:53


Post by: TheCustomLime


+6" and allow more FRFSRFs to be issued per turn? Maybe buff FRFSRF?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:27:13


Post by: Psienesis


... you do realize that the Guard is *meant* to be largely-faceless carbon copies of each other (a Cadian is a Cadian is a Cadian). Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

The Imperial Guard are Regular Human People who are facing off against Armies of Supermans, Armies of Demon-touched Supermans, Demons Themselves, Aliens that Eat Everything, Aliens that Fight Everything, Aliens Older than History Itself, Aliens who Foretell the Future (and are As Old as History Itself), Women with Better Armor, Better Guns and Better Training than You (and God is Literally On Their Side) and Some Blue-skinned Schmucks with Better Guns Than You.

By the description of the setting, unless the Guard is fighting what amounts to itself, they're supposed to be horribly out-classed in every way except in sheer number of bodies. It's kind of the theme of 40k.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:30:52


Post by: TheCustomLime


Not to mention balls to the walls firepower. Guard loves their massed Earthshaker batteries which are still powerful guns by the standards of M41.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:37:31


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Also, I feel that APOC better grabs the feel of the Imperial Guard, where you can field entire support companies designed to fight as a unit.

For example, in regular 40k you can bring nine basilisks and it is meh.

In apoc? 9 basilisks and a chimera can fire a 9-shot apocalyptic barrage with ignores cover and pinning.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:37:43


Post by: ultimentra


Maybe give rank fire shred? My problem is usually not with hitting things, usually it's wounding things. MEQ on a 5+ and bikers on a 6+ really hurts.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 19:38:29


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Or another example is the heavy weapons company, which cannot legally be fielded in regular 40k.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 20:41:05


Post by: Ignatius


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ignatius wrote:
 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.


I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

Oh please. The Guard doctrines really were not "characterful". They consisted of benefits with no real trade-offs and as fond as I was of the system, it was tedious to continually see the same lists over and over.


You and I will never agree on the direction or intention of the faction apparently.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 20:59:46


Post by: Kanluwen


 Ignatius wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ignatius wrote:
 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.


I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

Oh please. The Guard doctrines really were not "characterful". They consisted of benefits with no real trade-offs and as fond as I was of the system, it was tedious to continually see the same lists over and over.


You and I will never agree on the direction or intention of the faction apparently.

I think we can both agree that it is vastly underpowered right now, and undersupported in terms of the models that have options.

All honesty though, the Doctrines codex is remembered fondly but it seems like Guard players also forget that for every good Doctrine there were two duds--and that the Doctrines force also restricted the types of units you could take to boot!

If we see a "Doctrines" system return, I want it like the Space Marines book where each Regiment is given a set of traits that are specific to them.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 22:10:26


Post by: Vaktathi


Ultimately the scale of the game has run off on itself. With the kinds of things we're seeing become "normal" in the game at this point, it's effectively shifting to the scael Epic used to be played at. We've got entire armies of superheavies, single troops units putting out as much S6 firepower as entire armies used to in 4E or 5E, with basic troops in others roughly matching Terminators for raw resiliency at nearly a third of the cost, and units like TWC's or Wraiths that can require hundreds of guardsmen concentrating fire for multiple turns to kill.

The way the armies function at this point, a unit like Guardsmen fundamentally has very little value beyond mere board presence. Lasguns in many instances are a rather pointless weapon and require an absurd amount of effort to get value out of in many instances (well, if we've got 50 guys, a vox and Ld support, with an officer nearby, and a psyker giving a Blessing, and the enemy is in double-tap range but hasn't made it into assault...then we can make them hurt...)

If people want to keep things like Necron Wraiths, TWC's, Knights, etc the way they are now, Guardsmen need to be re-worked. They're simply so weeny as to be pointless to track as individual models. Having to worry about if a sergeant is armed with a sword or a mace, or which individual lasguns are in double-tap range or not, gets to be extremely absurd when there's dozens or hundreds of them and they're not really hurting much of anything either way. Worrying about which guardsmen is closer and who get cover for wound allocation, when fighting a Knight army of 5 models, is rather asinine. That level of granularity when the scale has shifted up that far is simply odious. They need to be treated basically as a single entities with further abstracted rules and firepower, like a big single multi-wound model.

As a quick mental exercise example, a basic squad can be something like T3, Eternal Warrior, W10, flamers & large blasts automatically hit D3+2 & small blasts automatically hit D3 models instead of having to work out individual hits, measure range & LoS from anywhere (both to and from) and instead of keeping track of 20 lasguns, simply give it a static number of shots with strength dependent on unit size (e.g. 6 shots @ S5 with 7-10 wounds, S4 with 4-6 wounds, and S3 when 3 wounds or less), do likewise for CC attacks, and you could still add the provision for heavy/special weapons in the same way MC's can use theirs and just assume they're there until the unit is killed. This makes record keeping and tracking individual models less necessary, gives the unit a bit more staying power/teeth, and a bit more functionality in general.



The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 22:28:00


Post by: Bobthehero


 Psienesis wrote:
.Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.


Not 10k anymore, the Scion codex did away with that limitation.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 22:37:58


Post by: Vaktathi


 Bobthehero wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
.Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.


Not 10k anymore, the Scion codex did away with that limitation.
I don't think that number had even been used since 2E, I certainly don't recall it in any post 2E books. That number also came about when the "titanic" wars of galactic importance on Armageddon had fewer deployed troops than fought on the Eastern Front in WW2.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 22:41:37


Post by: Selym


10k is laughably low. 1 million Marines is too few to be significant, and 10,000 sub-Marines (see what I did there) would be pointless.
I've never seen any reference to a hard cap on stormtroopers, and I've been following the IG since 4E fluff.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 22:47:16


Post by: scommy


The last codex had so much substance and variety. The loss of so much arty and characters makes Guard seem a bit dull.

eg: Penal legionaries were a great fluffy concept, even if the points were out a bit. They could be reborn into half decent CC units - condemned fearless dirty crims who are good with knives.




The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 23:31:19


Post by: Baldeagle91


Experiment 626 wrote:
]Instead, just give the Lasgun the ap6 is should ideally have... ALL the background & various novels and such go on at length about lasgun shots tearing through standard flak vests, while 2-3+ direct hits will typically put down those protected by full flak armour.


That would be AP 5....


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/01 23:38:43


Post by: scommy


I dunno, giving lasguns ap6 could work. But it would seriously upset/penalise Ork players.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 06:49:27


Post by: Hawky


Lowering point costs for Guardsmen can help a bit, but mayor problem is the Lasgun itself. Leave Guardsmen's Sv 5+ aside, its ok, but damage output is low.

Give the lasgun more shots (not salvo, keep Rapid Fire but it fires one more shot in default, FRFSRF adding another one) to 2/3 without and 3/4 with FRFSRF.
And some kind of "Massed Fire" rule which grants Shred on sixes to hit.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 09:46:45


Post by: the ancient


Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Everything gets splatted by big stuff these days, the IG just as much as everyone elses troops.
Do IG have Ob Sec?
I spose you could do something with, if a squads wiped out, leave 2? models bunkered down, either side gets within 4" they take a shot. Call it panicked response or something, like a land mine.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 09:54:03


Post by: oldzoggy


Just read the Mechanicum novel.and Guards seem to be way to powerful compared to knights or bigger engines.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 11:45:35


Post by: Selym


the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Try playing an IG vs SM game. Lasguns are pointless.

If improving the IG meant having to improve everything else too, then the same should be true of all other codexes. The IG have now gone two editions with only a mild increase in firepower, and an overall reduction in durability and efficiency.

Meanwhile: IK, WK, Centurions, new-and-improved Ravenwing...


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 13:27:14


Post by: vipoid


the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?


You mean like when tacticals got a ~33% price drop in 6th, and Guardsmen got... nothing.

Or when they got Chapter Tactics in 6th, and guardsmen got... nothing.

Or when they got Grav weapons in 6th, and guardsmen got... more useless Ogryns.

Or when they got Objective Secured (for all units in their detachment, not just troops), and Doctorines on top of their Chapter Tactics in 7th, and guardsmen... nope, still waiting.

Even if the bolter hasn't been directly buffed, it's fair to say that SMs have received more than their fair share of buffs.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 13:39:51


Post by: Talizvar


Well, focusing on helping the lasgun, how about making like combat shotgun: just change it from rapid fire to assault.
I feel like I am stealing a page from the Orks however.

It will allow for a bit more run and gun for the troops with a bit more long distance punch.
Best I figure without unbalancing things too much.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 14:14:13


Post by: Selym


Think, Selym, think...

Lasers... And more lasers...

What if we got some sort of combined fire for lasguns? Like, when you have less than ten rounds going into the opponent, nothing much really happens (you gone dun diddly), but for every ten shots fired at the target, the target gets an automatic wound or something (a whole lotta diddly).


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 14:17:35


Post by: vipoid


 Selym wrote:
Think, Selym, think...

Lasers... And more lasers...

What if we got some sort of combined fire for lasguns? Like, when you have less than ten rounds going into the opponent, nothing much really happens (you gone dun diddly), but for every ten shots fired at the target, the target gets an automatic wound or something (a whole lotta diddly).


Would it be better if you could sacrifice quantity for quality? So, lose a lot of shots but gain better strength and/or /AP.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 14:55:49


Post by: 123ply


Honestly, all the Lasgun needs is an AP of 6.
S3 AP6... that small change will not only make sense fluff wise, but it will also make guardsmen more effective shooters than boyz...

Like seriously, do the Mathhammer and compare Shoota Boyz to Guardsmen. An ork is a more effective marksman than a trained human ffs BECAUSE the Lasgun has no penetration prowess at al -_-l. Merely upping it's armour penatration to 6 will mean that a guardsman can finally kill a boy in a firefight. Whoopi!


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 14:57:33


Post by: vipoid


123ply wrote:
Honestly, all the Lasgun needs is an AP of 6.
S3 AP6... that small change will not only make sense fluff wise, but it will also make guardsmen more effective shooters than boyz...


Sorry, but what exactly is this fixing?

The whole problem with lasguns is that they're useless against most units in the game. This doesn't change that one iota.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 15:05:49


Post by: Kanluwen


Truthfully, the biggest thing I've always thought of for Lasgun fire is to make them Assault and increase their effectiveness based on range.
The closer you and the enemy are, the more devastating the Lasgun volleys would be.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 15:19:50


Post by: Brother SRM


 Kanluwen wrote:
Truthfully, the biggest thing I've always thought of for Lasgun fire is to make them Assault and increase their effectiveness based on range.
The closer you and the enemy are, the more devastating the Lasgun volleys would be.

So Rapid Fire then I think it'd be cool if they bumped to S4 if they're within 12" or something, or if the unit hits for than X times it gets shred or rending to represent the sheer volume of fire finding chinks in the armor of whatever they're shooting.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 15:29:38


Post by: Kanluwen


Oooh, or "Lasguns" become Strength/AP X--where X is the number of Guardsmen firing?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 15:32:07


Post by: vipoid


So, if 40 guardsmen fire, their lasguns are S40 AP40?

I could get behind that.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 15:37:11


Post by: Kanluwen


 vipoid wrote:
So, if 40 guardsmen fire, their lasguns are S40 AP40?

I could get behind that.

Wellll...it would necessitate removing "Blob Squads"(which I'm okay with, I really don't understand why they put that in for the first place).

8 S8 AP1 shots(going from -, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) coming from a squad actually is kind of scary coupled with whatever the Special Weapons and Sergeant are packing.

I think I did not consider this problem. But I am okay with this problem.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 15:51:01


Post by: UrsoerTheSquid


On a side thread I think the main problem with guard is survivability. They either need a point drop or perhaps a better save, what if they stayed the same point but went from 5+ to a 4+ and stormies went to a 3+?

It doesn't quite fit the fluff but it would be awesome, las guns would still be crap but it would do a lot to survivability.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 16:04:18


Post by: Sledgehammer


Strength 4 at range 12 would do so much to make the lasgun viable. The wound roll is the primary problem. Shred could also be an alternative to that problem (if within 12 inches). The bolter should have shred within its special rules already.

We need the tools to engage in offensive actions. The tabletop gives no incentives to advance on the enemy for guard.

#1 ranged weaponry that gives no bonuses for close range
#2 weak in melee
#3 lack of mobility

With an increase in firepower at short range, and mobility, you could potentially make the guard more fun and dynamic.

Imagine having 2 outflanking squads of veterans with strength 4 lasguns at range 12. Couple that with a semi defensive line and an advancing enemy and you could potentially pull off a pincer maneuver.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 16:13:50


Post by: Brother SRM


UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
On a side thread I think the main problem with guard is survivability. They either need a point drop or perhaps a better save, what if they stayed the same point but went from 5+ to a 4+ and stormies went to a 3+?

It doesn't quite fit the fluff but it would be awesome, las guns would still be crap but it would do a lot to survivability.

I really don't think creeping up like their saves like that is a good thing. I like the idea of the individual Guardsman as fairly weak and squishy, and I'm saying this as a long time IG veteran. That would also cause some sort of scale creep, where now everyone else with carapace armor needs to be buffed up, and now power armor needs to be buffed up since carapace armor is a 3+.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 16:25:38


Post by: UrsoerTheSquid


I agree it would be a little odd, but having carapace at a 3+ seems less dramatic then upping the las gun.

I'm curious just to see what is coming. Either there will be sweeping changes. Or nothing will change and I have a feeling it will be nothing.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 16:39:01


Post by: Makumba


As much as I agree with the lasgun suck team, I think that the badness of IG is blinding people to how bad str 4 basic weapons are too. Which army right now uses bs4 str 4 ? non. The tac is a msu with a gravgun and razorback doing the killing. Bikers bolters are unimportants, important are the gravs. Eldar basic weapon is either pseudo rending or str 6 with 3 shots. tyranid basic weapon is an HQ etc.

Lasguns to work would either have to be bumped to something like str 5-6, with ap-. Or have some supper effects added to them for more people shoting the unit, or orders or anything. Right now they could be made ap 4 assault 2 and still would probably suck.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 16:59:45


Post by: Brother SRM


Makumba wrote:

Lasguns to work would either have to be bumped to something like str 5-6, with ap-.

That's a genuinely insane idea and makes no sense in the context of the setting, and would be overcompensating like crazy. S4 is solid for infantry weapons meant to take on other infantry. They don't need to all have scatterlasers to be effective.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:09:11


Post by: TheCustomLime


S4 with an improved FRFSRF would be pretty dope. Add in some Inquisitor/Psykers for taste.


Give an order that makes platoons relentless. Also, there should be a buff that Vox casters allow orders to be relayed to other units with Vox casters no matter where they are. If they are out of LOS -1 Ld to the check.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:12:49


Post by: Kanluwen


 Sledgehammer wrote:

With an increase in firepower at short range, and mobility, you could potentially make the guard more fun and dynamic.

Increasing firepower at short range/mobility will not make the guard "more fun" or "dynamic". You just move from gunlining to running at the enemy/transport spam.
"Dynamic" would be if the army could react to threats in ways that, as of right now, no armies realistically can.

Time to bring the Empire "Detachment" rules to the Imperial Guard! Platoon Squads are the "Parent" units and the auxiliary/special units are the Detachments.
Boom. Dynamic!


Imagine having 2 outflanking squads of veterans with strength 4 lasguns at range 12. Couple that with a semi defensive line and an advancing enemy and you could potentially pull off a pincer maneuver.

Veterans need a lot of work. I think the ability for them to Booby Trap terrain/sections of the board is a good start.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:18:18


Post by: Makumba


 Brother SRM wrote:
Makumba wrote:

Lasguns to work would either have to be bumped to something like str 5-6, with ap-.

That's a genuinely insane idea and makes no sense in the context of the setting, and would be overcompensating like crazy. S4 is solid for infantry weapons meant to take on other infantry. They don't need to all have scatterlasers to be effective.

3 IG with lasguns would be one scater laser, but without the bikes tough buff, jink save, turbo boost ability, lower hit chance and lower speed in general. There are already armies with basic weapons being str 5 or even higher. So I don't see how it insane the IG would get. In fact if IG don't get insane stuff in their next codex, they will be at best as bad as they are right now.


S4 with an improved FRFSRF would be pretty dope. Add in some Inquisitor/Psykers for taste.

So they kill twice as many models with their boltguns as marine player with a tactical, for more points. And that is what , 3 or 4 meq dead per turn, from a squad with a lot less resilience and mobility, then a marine one.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:21:12


Post by: TheCustomLime


Not to mention all of their Special/Heavy Weapons.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:32:35


Post by: master of ordinance


the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Everything gets splatted by big stuff these days, the IG just as much as everyone elses troops.
Do IG have Ob Sec?
I spose you could do something with, if a squads wiped out, leave 2? models bunkered down, either side gets within 4" they take a shot. Call it panicked response or something, like a land mine.


I am and I was very vocal about it.

Put it this way, the average Marine is under priced for what he does. To prove this I shall take average joe, a Guard grunt, and upgrade him to an SS (Special Snowflake):
So, Joe currently costs 5 points. He is equipped with a Lasgun, Flak Armour, Frag Grenades and a Knife. His stats are: 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7

First we give him Krak Grenades at +1 point

Then we exchange his Lasgun for a Bolter at +1 point

Then we upgrade his armour to Carapace for +1.5 points

Then we upgrade that Carapace too Power Armour for 8 points.

Now Joe is a regular bod with a Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades and Power Armour. He does not have ATSKNF and he does not have 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/9

He costs 16.5 points.
Marines cost 14 points per model.

So, do tell me again how Imperial Guardsmen and Women are fairly priced?

If you improve the Guard you do not have to improve everything else. Everything else has already been improved countless times over. Marines are meant to be few in number and yet I see entire companies being fielded in games, so why should the Guard remain pathetic "Because fluff says so"?
Everything gets splatted by the big stuff but only the Guard get splatted by the weenie stuff too, hell the only weapon that does not ignore our armour is the Lasgun. Which means our gun is gakkier than our already gak armour.
We do have Obsec. It is such a pity that we have no way whatsoever to move at any real speed. Over the editions we have had our mobility nerfed again and again. Chimeras? Cost waaayyyyy too much. Taurox? Even worse armour, no improvement on the firepower and they cost more. LRBT? Cannot move more than 6" unless it is in a command squadron and the commander wastes his order for the turn. And even then you might not get it off.



The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:41:50


Post by: Makumba


Don't two Lemman Russes cost almost as much as an eldar WK?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:49:55


Post by: DoomShakaLaka


 master of ordinance wrote:
the ancient wrote:
Just curious. But how many of you were against improving SM and the bolter?
If they improve the IG, youd have to improve everyone else. You would still be in the same place. Las is supposed to be gak, it can still wipe SM of the board.
Everything gets splatted by big stuff these days, the IG just as much as everyone elses troops.
Do IG have Ob Sec?
I spose you could do something with, if a squads wiped out, leave 2? models bunkered down, either side gets within 4" they take a shot. Call it panicked response or something, like a land mine.


I am and I was very vocal about it.

Put it this way, the average Marine is under priced for what he does. To prove this I shall take average joe, a Guard grunt, and upgrade him to an SS (Special Snowflake):
So, Joe currently costs 5 points. He is equipped with a Lasgun, Flak Armour, Frag Grenades and a Knife. His stats are: 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7

First we give him Krak Grenades at +1 point

Then we exchange his Lasgun for a Bolter at +1 point

Then we upgrade his armour to Carapace for +1.5 points

Then we upgrade that Carapace too Power Armour for 8 points.

Now Joe is a regular bod with a Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades and Power Armour. He does not have ATSKNF and he does not have 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/9

He costs 16.5 points.
Marines cost 14 points per model.

So, do tell me again how Imperial Guardsmen and Women are fairly priced?

If you improve the Guard you do not have to improve everything else. Everything else has already been improved countless times over. Marines are meant to be few in number and yet I see entire companies being fielded in games, so why should the Guard remain pathetic "Because fluff says so"?
Everything gets splatted by the big stuff but only the Guard get splatted by the weenie stuff too, hell the only weapon that does not ignore our armour is the Lasgun. Which means our gun is gakkier than our already gak armour.
We do have Obsec. It is such a pity that we have no way whatsoever to move at any real speed. Over the editions we have had our mobility nerfed again and again. Chimeras? Cost waaayyyyy too much. Taurox? Even worse armour, no improvement on the firepower and they cost more. LRBT? Cannot move more than 6" unless it is in a command squadron and the commander wastes his order for the turn. And even then you might not get it off.



No the Tac marine is fairly costed,

Its the guardsman that is overpriced. I have always stated that guardsman should be 4 ppm and come with grenades standard. But there are SO many other things wrong with IG's codex too


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 17:58:52


Post by: Ashiraya


 Psienesis wrote:
... you do realize that the Guard is *meant* to be largely-faceless carbon copies of each other (a Cadian is a Cadian is a Cadian). Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

The Imperial Guard are Regular Human People who are facing off against Armies of Supermans, Armies of Demon-touched Supermans, Demons Themselves, Aliens that Eat Everything, Aliens that Fight Everything, Aliens Older than History Itself, Aliens who Foretell the Future (and are As Old as History Itself), Women with Better Armor, Better Guns and Better Training than You (and God is Literally On Their Side) and Some Blue-skinned Schmucks with Better Guns Than You.

By the description of the setting, unless the Guard is fighting what amounts to itself, they're supposed to be horribly out-classed in every way except in sheer number of bodies. It's kind of the theme of 40k.


Agreed. Soldier per soldier, the IG arguably come off best of all the factions in the game compared to their lore strength.

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 18:07:28


Post by: vipoid


 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Its the guardsman that is overpriced. I have always stated that guardsman should be 4 ppm and come with grenades standard. But there are SO many other things wrong with IG's codex too


The problem with that is that against most targets in the game these days, guardsmen just don't do anything.

I mean, in order to be functional against stuff like Wraiths and TWC, they'd need to be priced at like 1-2pts per model. And, that's still not solving the issue that there are many units in the game they have no way of hurting.

Basically, we're at the point where quantity alone isn't enough to make up for a lack of quality.


Also, on a personal note, I'd much rather have guardsmen stay at 5pts and get better than remain the same and get cheaper. I can field enough of the sods as it is.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 18:07:55


Post by: Makumba


Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 18:11:23


Post by: Ashiraya


Makumba wrote:
Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger


Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 18:34:13


Post by: Alcibiades


If you want a more elite feeling force, that's what veterans are for. Or stormtroopers.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 18:39:26


Post by: Bobthehero


 Ashiraya wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
... you do realize that the Guard is *meant* to be largely-faceless carbon copies of each other (a Cadian is a Cadian is a Cadian). Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

The Imperial Guard are Regular Human People who are facing off against Armies of Supermans, Armies of Demon-touched Supermans, Demons Themselves, Aliens that Eat Everything, Aliens that Fight Everything, Aliens Older than History Itself, Aliens who Foretell the Future (and are As Old as History Itself), Women with Better Armor, Better Guns and Better Training than You (and God is Literally On Their Side) and Some Blue-skinned Schmucks with Better Guns Than You.

By the description of the setting, unless the Guard is fighting what amounts to itself, they're supposed to be horribly out-classed in every way except in sheer number of bodies. It's kind of the theme of 40k.


Agreed. Soldier per soldier, the IG arguably come off best of all the factions in the game compared to their lore strength.

Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds.


According to you, maybe.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 18:42:38


Post by: Kanluwen


 Ashiraya wrote:
Makumba wrote:
Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger


Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.

However Cadians do make up an abnormal percentage of most Guard forces, for the simple fact that they get around everywhere and are in high demand.

Reaaaaaaaaaaaallly interested to see where those "2 months" and "2 weeks" numbers came from.
And if you really want to get technical, "training a Space Marine" takes far less than years as they're selected before they hit puberty and given what amounts to mental conditioning prior to their induction into the Scout Company.

Going from Scout Company onwards might take months or years, but if we're going with that yardstick then it takes X amount of time to train a Conscript, followed by Y amount of time in the Conscript Platoons for a Conscript to be elevated to Guardsman status.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 19:00:25


Post by: TheCustomLime


Well, if I recall Guardsmen get 2 months of training once they are formally inducted into the Guard and sent to the nearest warzone. They could've had any number of months or even years of training before that. This 2 month training is more to accumulate the Guardsmen to his role within the Guard and to instruct him on what to do once he reaches his destination. This could be instructions on how to deal with the toxic environment, how to keep your Lasgun safe from electric storms and so on. For some Guardsman this could be the only training he gets but I think that's more the exception than the rule. Most Guardsmen see time in the PDF before heading out and Planetary Governors don't exactly want to sent their rookies out.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 19:36:30


Post by: Makumba


 Ashiraya wrote:
Makumba wrote:
Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger


Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.

mordian iron guard, valhalans and the death korps are the same. All dudes from warrior worlds are in the wars buissness from an earliest age.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 19:50:01


Post by: Vaktathi


 Ashiraya wrote:
Makumba wrote:
Otherwise, keep this in mind. Training a Space Marine takes 20 years. Training a Guardsman takes 2 months. Training a Conscript takes 2 weeks. Training a Boy takes 2 hours. Training a Gaunt takes 2 seconds

Tell that to all cadians and catachans that learn how to handle a gun as soon as they can pull the trigger


Cadians and catachans are very much the exception, not the norm.

Both regiments are famed throughout the Imperium for their skill and dedication. Most of the Guardsmen are not from either of those two worlds, however.
It holds true for pretty much all of the model lines GW makes however. Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, Vostroyans, Tanith, Mordians, Steel Legion, etc are all very well known for their fighting prowess and recruiting high quality soldiers.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 20:49:36


Post by: Unit1126PLL


The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 20:57:09


Post by: Ashiraya


 Kanluwen wrote:
Reaaaaaaaaaaaallly interested to see where those "2 months" and "2 weeks" numbers came from.


I doubt it's literally 2 months or 2 weeks. May be more, may be less. It was just a rough number to illustrate the fact that pretty much every fight you as an IG player fight on the tabletop against an enemy who is not Tyranids or Orks is invariably going to be a crushing strategic victory for you, no matter what the victory points say, because that Tactical Marine costs 5 times as many points as your Guardsman but is 99,000,000 times as rare and much much much much much much much much much much much much costlier, more time-consuming and more difficult to replace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut


You will notice that one depiction is more common in the IG codex and books like Gaunt or Cain, and the other is more common everywhere else...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
It holds true for pretty much all of the model lines GW makes however. Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, Vostroyans, Tanith, Mordians, Steel Legion, etc are all very well known for their fighting prowess and recruiting high quality soldiers.


Of course. People, according to GW anyway, are much less likely to collect the 12469th Genericusian Dragoons than they are to collect the glorious™ elite™ CADIAN SHOCK TROOPS™.

This is not really a surprise, but it doesn't mean that those paragon regiments are the most common ones who actually are out there in the game's lore.

Kind of like how you are significantly more likely to face the Grey Knights in combat on the tabletop than in the lore.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 21:13:17


Post by: Bobthehero


 Ashiraya wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut


You will notice that one depiction is more common in the IG codex and books like Gaunt or Cain, and the other is more common everywhere else...



Same can be said for all factions


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 21:13:24


Post by: Psienesis


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The worst part is GW have written themselves into a fluff corner.

"THE IG ARE THE BEST MEN IN THE GALAXY..."

"THE IG ARE FACELESS CANNON FODDER..."

so guardsmen are simultaneously expert soldiers trained from birth and cannon fodder.

Wut


They can be two things.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 21:33:15


Post by: Baldeagle91


 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, if I recall Guardsmen get 2 months of training once they are formally inducted into the Guard and sent to the nearest warzone. They could've had any number of months or even years of training before that. This 2 month training is more to accumulate the Guardsmen to his role within the Guard and to instruct him on what to do once he reaches his destination. This could be instructions on how to deal with the toxic environment, how to keep your Lasgun safe from electric storms and so on. For some Guardsman this could be the only training he gets but I think that's more the exception than the rule. Most Guardsmen see time in the PDF before heading out and Planetary Governors don't exactly want to sent their rookies out.


If I remember correctly the guardsmen have to be of a certain quality when they join the Guard, otherwise bad things will happen to their governors. Also most of that 2 month training is A) Fitting the troops into the gaurd system of doing things and B) Preparing troops who may of never set foot off their planet for the horrors of the 40k universe.

Also I personally think it's a massive misconception that PDF troops suck, especially on worlds that are constant war zones. On krieg for example, wouldn't most of the forces technically of been PDF forces before the civil war ended?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 21:39:31


Post by: TheCustomLime


Well, that's because the only places of interest to the 40k tabletop are places where the PDF has failed to defend their world thus necessitating greater Imperial intervention. It would be boring to read "Orks attempted invasion of Betralis Gamma. Betralis PDF successfully fends them off with minimal losses. Glory to the Emperor!" over and over.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 21:41:37


Post by: Baldeagle91


 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, that's because the only places of interest to the 40k tabletop are places where the PDF has failed to defend their world thus necessitating greater Imperial intervention. It would be boring to read "Orks attempted invasion of Betralis Gamma. Betralis PDF successfully fends them off with minimal losses. Glory to the Emperor!" over and over.


Tbh most of what you hear in the fluff is when a planets own forces is not simply enough. I personally think a PDF type list or formation could be a great alternative to the traditional IG force.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 22:10:57


Post by: Psienesis


 Baldeagle91 wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, that's because the only places of interest to the 40k tabletop are places where the PDF has failed to defend their world thus necessitating greater Imperial intervention. It would be boring to read "Orks attempted invasion of Betralis Gamma. Betralis PDF successfully fends them off with minimal losses. Glory to the Emperor!" over and over.


Tbh most of what you hear in the fluff is when a planets own forces is not simply enough. I personally think a PDF type list or formation could be a great alternative to the traditional IG force.


There's no functional difference between a PDF and the IG on the table-top. The only thing you wouldn't see is something like Stormtroopers (being an elite unit deployed by the Imperium, rather than locals) and, perhaps, some of the super-rare stuff (though maybe, with good justification) but, otherwise? It's dudes/dudettes with guns, maybe also with tanks and artillery.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 23:15:28


Post by: Selym


Makumba wrote:
Don't two Lemman Russes cost almost as much as an eldar WK?
They cost more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm noticing a theme in this thread...

It's largely "Everyone who thinks the IG are fine as-is" vs "Everyone who's played guard in the last year"


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/02 23:43:45


Post by: Otto Weston


 Selym wrote:
Makumba wrote:
Don't two Lemman Russes cost almost as much as an eldar WK?
They cost more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm noticing a theme in this thread...

It's largely "Everyone who thinks the IG are fine as-is" vs "Everyone who's played guard in the last year"


Not true, I've played Guard Twice in the last month. Won the first and drew the second (Versus Space Marines).
Mostly I feel that the Guard is okay, you shouldn't be relying on your infantry with lasguns to do much anyway... it's about the Special/ Heavy weapons and then your support/ heavy elements.

If I'd have to have a buff, it wouldn't be the lasguns (they should remain gak because that's what they are in the fluff).
I believe that a fluffier buff would be the ability to take medi-packs in all squads... Hell even the Orks get better medical care atm by sticking Painboys in squads of Boyz!


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 00:25:03


Post by: MarsNZ


At most lasguns should be Assault: 2. Lasguns are light (the puns the puns), have a good ROF in the fluff and this way the Guard could put volume of fire out to max range, rather than just a panicked spray the turn before they're crushed in close combat.

A lot of the suggestions in here are getting absurd. S4? AP5? No, we don't use bolters.

PS they should make SM/CSM bolters Assault: 2 as well.

 Otto Weston wrote:

I believe that a fluffier buff would be the ability to take medi-packs in all squads... Hell even the Orks get better medical care atm by sticking Painboys in squads of Boyz!


Have all the exalts! This has bugged me since I picked up my codex.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 08:49:00


Post by: Selym


If you aren't changing the guardsmen at all, you're getting a troops choice that costs 1/3rd as much as a full tactical squad, and is about 1/12th as effective. Adding med packs would make them more expensive for not a whole lot more.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 09:02:27


Post by: vipoid


 Otto Weston wrote:

Mostly I feel that the Guard is okay, you shouldn't be relying on your infantry with lasguns to do much anyway... it's about the Special/ Heavy weapons and then your support/ heavy elements.


Yeah, because 9 useless weapons for every 1 useful one at BS3 is a really amazing ratio. I love having to take 18 worthless guys to average 1 hit with a weapon that isn't crap.

Also, even are special weapons are just outclassed by what's in the game these days. We're stuck with plasma that kills us while SMs are touting Wraithknight-eating Grav Cannons. And it's not even limited to infantry - virtually every Leman Russ is firing outdated weapons (save for the one that kills itself), but no one seems to have mentioned this to the guy costing them.

As I said earlier, we're at the stage in the game where quantity simply isn't making up for a lack of quality. Especially when the quantity is barely more than other armies get with their units, with improved durability and firepower.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 10:05:53


Post by: master of ordinance


The problem is that the Guard are all about the Lasguns. They are our basic weapon, the one thing that we have masses of. Heavy weapons? We have one to every section. So a 1/10 ratio of effective weapons to useless chaff compared to the Marines (and just about every other armies) 1/1 ratio of effective weapons to effective weapons. We can take specialists whom just happen to pay as much as a Marine for there weapons despite being only fractionally as good with them and even less so at surviving long enough to use them (armour? What armour?) and even then unless we take them in Veteran sections we can only have a ratio of 3/10. And sure we can take Specialist and Heavy weapons sections but there is a reason as to why you never see these in use because they cost far more than they are worth (45 points plus weapons for a HWS) and can not take transports (have fun trying to use those specialist weapons) so we are once again left with the fact that we have only a fraction of our bods carrying heavy or specialist weapons and the other 90% of our army carrying Lasguns.

So yes, Lasguns ARE what the Imperial Guard are all about. Lasguns are not just some backup or minority weapon, they are the gun to which almost all of our soldiers are equipped with. They are the weapon with which we fight and die. Why should they be so utterly useless when every other army has better basic weapons and can deploy these on a points based ratio to a far higher number than we can?

The Guardsman does not need to be cheaper, we already have too many of them. They need to be better. The Lasgun needs to get better.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 10:51:41


Post by: Selym


We can retain the theme of guardsman = expendable and lasgun = flashlight by having massed fire rules.

If you've got one or two of something, it should be useless, but en masse, there needs to be more.

Now, I know we all hate rules bloat, but we're gonna need it:

-Heavy Weapons Teams all gain Pinning when they fire, and the target unit has a -2 Ld penalty for the pinning roll

-For every 10 lasgun shots fired at the enemy, the enemy takes 1 auto-wound (there's just so much heat coming off it, it would happen)

-Lasguns become Assault 2 (it's exactly like firing a laser pointer irl, but better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Human Ingenuity:
Humans are extremely hard to remove once entrenched.
All IG infantry models have a permanent +1 to their cover save. This means that they all have a minimum of a 6+ cover save at all times. This cannot be used to improve a save past a 2+.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 11:00:35


Post by: master of ordinance


 Selym wrote:
We can retain the theme of guardsman = expendable and lasgun = flashlight by having massed fire rules.

If you've got one or two of something, it should be useless, but en masse, there needs to be more.

Now, I know we all hate rules bloat, but we're gonna need it:

-Heavy Weapons Teams all gain Pinning when they fire, and the target unit has a -2 Ld penalty for the pinning roll

-For every 10 lasgun shots fired at the enemy, the enemy takes 1 auto-wound (there's just so much heat coming off it, it would happen)

-Lasguns become Assault 2 (it's exactly like firing a laser pointer irl, but better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Human Ingenuity:
Humans are extremely hard to remove once entrenched.
All IG infantry models have a permanent +1 to their cover save. This means that they all have a minimum of a 6+ cover save at all times. This cannot be used to improve a save past a 2+.


I would accept this


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 11:02:41


Post by: Alcibiades


There are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of planets in the Imperium that are producing men for the Guard. Even if Cadians and Catachans are present in wars in numbers incommensurate with their planets' populations, they are a microscopic fraction of the total. A fraction of a tenth of a percent.

All the named Guard units in fluff put together are a tiny, tiny fraction of the total.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 11:14:51


Post by: Selym


Alcibiades wrote:
There are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of planets in the Imperium that are producing men for the Guard. Even if Cadians and Catachans are present in wars in numbers incommensurate with their planets' populations, they are a microscopic fraction of the total. A fraction of a tenth of a percent.

All the named Guard units in fluff put together are a tiny, tiny fraction of the total.
And this means we should have a terrible army because....?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 12:16:03


Post by: master of ordinance


 Selym wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
There are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of planets in the Imperium that are producing men for the Guard. Even if Cadians and Catachans are present in wars in numbers incommensurate with their planets' populations, they are a microscopic fraction of the total. A fraction of a tenth of a percent.

All the named Guard units in fluff put together are a tiny, tiny fraction of the total.
And this means we should have a terrible army because....?


Because he is a Space Marine player and he said so.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 12:23:20


Post by: vipoid


Perhaps we're looking at this wrong. Maybe, instead of trying to fix the IG codex, we should just use the SM one instead.

I mean, think about it - the current SM book does just about everything you'd expect IG to do:

- SMs are cheap enough to spam if you want to go infantry heavy.
- If you want to go mech heavy, then there are formations to help, and they even have vehicle squadrons.
- Vindicators and Predators are good Leman Russ stand-ins
- For artillery you have TFCs and Whirlwinds
- Dreadnoughts for Sentinels
- Centurions for Ogryns
- Biker Squads for Rough Riders
- An HQ who can call down an air-strike
- Rhinos and Razorbacks to stand in for Chimeras and Tauroxes
- Finally, their primary formation is all about taking and holding ground (Objective Secured), arguably the main objective of Guard.

There - I've solved the Imperial Guard.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 12:30:26


Post by: DoomShakaLaka


 Selym wrote:
We can retain the theme of guardsman = expendable and lasgun = flashlight by having massed fire rules.

If you've got one or two of something, it should be useless, but en masse, there needs to be more.

Now, I know we all hate rules bloat, but we're gonna need it:

-Heavy Weapons Teams all gain Pinning when they fire, and the target unit has a -2 Ld penalty for the pinning roll

-For every 10 lasgun shots fired at the enemy, the enemy takes 1 auto-wound (there's just so much heat coming off it, it would happen)

-Lasguns become Assault 2 (it's exactly like firing a laser pointer irl, but better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Human Ingenuity:
Humans are extremely hard to remove once entrenched.
All IG infantry models have a permanent +1 to their cover save. This means that they all have a minimum of a 6+ cover save at all times. This cannot be used to improve a save past a 2+.


This is pretty a good start.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 12:49:52


Post by: master of ordinance


 vipoid wrote:
Perhaps we're looking at this wrong. Maybe, instead of trying to fix the IG codex, we should just use the SM one instead.

I mean, think about it - the current SM book does just about everything you'd expect IG to do:

- SMs are cheap enough to spam if you want to go infantry heavy.
- If you want to go mech heavy, then there are formations to help, and they even have vehicle squadrons.
- Vindicators and Predators are good Leman Russ stand-ins
- For artillery you have TFCs and Whirlwinds
- Dreadnoughts for Sentinels
- Centurions for Ogryns
- Biker Squads for Rough Riders
- An HQ who can call down an air-strike
- Rhinos and Razorbacks to stand in for Chimeras and Tauroxes
- Finally, their primary formation is all about taking and holding ground (Objective Secured), arguably the main objective of Guard.

There - I've solved the Imperial Guard.


It is sad that the Marines do better at Guard things than the Guard do themselves


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 13:04:21


Post by: Signet-Powers


Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.

The REAL problem is that the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery all suck. Yeah, they're better than the other armies, but not by enough.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 13:15:35


Post by: vipoid


 Signet-Powers wrote:
Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.


No, that's just the role they're stuck in because their rules suck.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 13:17:20


Post by: master of ordinance


 vipoid wrote:
 Signet-Powers wrote:
Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.


No, that's just the role they're stuck in because their rules suck.


Exactly


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 13:44:55


Post by: Signet-Powers


 master of ordinance wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Signet-Powers wrote:
Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.


No, that's just the role they're stuck in because their rules suck.


Exactly


I agree, I'm just saying I don't mind as I'd rather the other units were improved.

But, if they do improve the Lasguns, I'd say they should be given pinning. That way they stay weak and don't lose their identity, but at the same time they can keep Marines from getting into CC. Make them assault as well.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 14:06:21


Post by: master of ordinance


 Signet-Powers wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Signet-Powers wrote:
Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.


No, that's just the role they're stuck in because their rules suck.


Exactly


I agree, I'm just saying I don't mind as I'd rather the other units were improved.

But, if they do improve the Lasguns, I'd say they should be given pinning. That way they stay weak and don't lose their identity, but at the same time they can keep Marines from getting into CC. Make them assault as well.


The problem there is that pinning forces an LD check. At base highest LD in the squad. Marines have LD 8/9. I have never seen Marines fail a pinning check once


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 14:15:50


Post by: vipoid


You also have to cause casualties to force pinning tests, meaning the lasgun is back to square one.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 15:41:31


Post by: GrafWattenburg


Guardsmen suck, but Renegades kick ass. Why's this? Renegades are:
-Cheaper
-Get artillery (cheaper and more durable than vehicles)
-Get formations allowing them to respawn and flood the board in bodies
-Get actual long-range anti-tank in the form of Laser Destroyers

Guardsmen don't really have any firepower to speak of. In the fluff you read about their artillery bombarding the field, then in the codex you have some AV12 vehicles with mediocre damage output. Wyverns are the only thing they have going for them.
Lascannon/Autocannon teams? Too expensive and too fragile.
Leman Russes? Only Pask actually does damage and he is one pricy guy.
etc.

So if you run a melee imperial army, say SW or something, and you want to add some long-ranged fire support, fluff-wise the Guard would be just the guys for the job, but on the tabletop they are just a bunch of overpriced and taxed units with mediocre firepower and no mobility. There's nothing you can't have regular Space Marines/Tau/Eldar/Mechanicus do better.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 15:54:41


Post by: UrsoerTheSquid


What if guard can fire into cc? On. 3+ you hit the designated target on a fail you hit yourself, also blast scatter as normal.

This could be a special order from a commissar, LC or even a ccs


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:18:03


Post by: 123ply


The Lasgun is almost just fine the way it is without adding all these crazy rules to make it an Uberloller.
I mean, the majority of guard battle reports I've read have had a the guard winning even with the crappy Lasgun than we got now.
You guys want change? Make it AP6.
That way, it is the gun that is SUPPOSED to be better than ballistic slugs and autoguns, and doesn't up it so much that it becomes something more than what a Lasgun is supposed to be. Like, c'mon, we all know how much crappier our laser rifles are compared to the weapons of other species, but we also know that it's capable of blowing off lime at its highest setting, just like a bolt gun, which is only strength 4, and we all know thay the Lasgun has better penetration power than automatically, yet there is nothing in the rules that makes that fluff cone to life.
You can change the Lasgun to have:
A) S4 ap-. But hotshot weapons and laspistols would also need to changed accordingly, OR
B) make it AP6. A small change that makes total sense, obviously isn't game break, and isn't such a change that through Lasgun becomes the only thing you ever need, but it makes fluffy sense.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:33:18


Post by: Baldeagle91


God did someone say special weapon and heavy weapon squads were good?

God look how expensive they are compared to other armies, linked with the fact we lost the two model rule for HWS years ago and it made them so much more fragile!!


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:33:31


Post by: Selym


123ply wrote:
The Lasgun is almost just fine the way it is without adding all these crazy rules to make it an Uberloller.
I mean, the majority of guard battle reports I've read have had a the guard winning even with the crappy Lasgun than we got now.
You guys want change? Make it AP6.
That way, it is the gun that is SUPPOSED to be better than ballistic slugs and autoguns, and doesn't up it so much that it becomes something more than what a Lasgun is supposed to be. Like, c'mon, we all know how much crappier our laser rifles are compared to the weapons of other species, but we also know that it's capable of blowing off lime at its highest setting, just like a bolt gun, which is only strength 4, and we all know thay the Lasgun has better penetration power than automatically, yet there is nothing in the rules that makes that fluff cone to life.
You can change the Lasgun to have:
A) S4 ap-. But hotshot weapons and laspistols would also need to changed accordingly, OR
B) make it AP6. A small change that makes total sense, obviously isn't game break, and isn't such a change that through Lasgun becomes the only thing you ever need, but it makes fluffy sense.
Oh fer god's sake! It's more than the gakking lasgun!

A list of points:

-Ap6 is fething useless. The lasgun would be exactly the same as before against 99.999% of targets.
-Str 4 is for automatic armour peircing grenade launchers
-The GUARDSMAN himself is half the issue
-Our upgrades NO NOT make up for the weakness of everything else
-Our upgrades cost the same as (or more) than their equivalents in other armies, despite the lower model stats and reduced durability


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:37:17


Post by: vipoid


123ply wrote:
The Lasgun is almost just fine the way it is without adding all these crazy rules to make it an Uberloller.
I mean, the majority of guard battle reports I've read have had a the guard winning even with the crappy Lasgun than we got now.
You guys want change? Make it AP6.


Oh for crying out loud, what is with this AP6 nonsense?

You might as well let lasguns dispense radishes, it would be about as useful.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:39:35


Post by: Selym


 vipoid wrote:
123ply wrote:
The Lasgun is almost just fine the way it is without adding all these crazy rules to make it an Uberloller.
I mean, the majority of guard battle reports I've read have had a the guard winning even with the crappy Lasgun than we got now.
You guys want change? Make it AP6.


Oh for crying out loud, what is with this AP6 nonsense?

You might as well let lasguns dispense radishes, it would be about as useful.
At least with radishes, our troops would be well fed, and have a standard-issue melee weapon.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:46:39


Post by: master of ordinance


AP 6? What units, outside of Orks, have a 6+ save these days?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:48:09


Post by: Bobthehero


Nids troops, when you don't deal with a zoo.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:52:46


Post by: master of ordinance


Wait, Tyranids have things smaller than massive monsters?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:52:56


Post by: DoomShakaLaka


 vipoid wrote:
123ply wrote:
The Lasgun is almost just fine the way it is without adding all these crazy rules to make it an Uberloller.
I mean, the majority of guard battle reports I've read have had a the guard winning even with the crappy Lasgun than we got now.
You guys want change? Make it AP6.


Oh for crying out loud, what is with this AP6 nonsense?

You might as well let lasguns dispense radishes, it would be about as useful.


At first I thought that this said dispensing raditzes as in the DBZ character.

"That's right he was literally so weak we are growing raditzes with lasguns"


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 16:54:22


Post by: master of ordinance


You probably could - after all the average Lasgun is about as powerful as a sunlamp


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 17:19:55


Post by: Lukash_


I feel like a Chapter Tactics-like doctrines system would go a long ways towards making Guardsmen viable again.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 18:22:54


Post by: Vaktathi


Again, I think fundamentally the game has just shifted so far away from what guardsmen really can be compared against that there's very little that can be done without changing the level of granularity of the game.

Quite simply, even a couple of years ago, Guardsmne were considered pretty useless, and that was before Eldar Jetbikes were BS4 and could take 4 shot S6 36" range weapons on every model in a Troops unit, and before 13pt Necron Warriors could rival Terminators or Plague Marines for resiliency.

When those sorts of things are basic Troops, how cheap does an "all 3's" model like a Guardsmen have to be to be competitive, and at what point does that simply become unwieldy on the board? I think we've already passed that state in the case of the latter issue.

I don't know if there's a particularly great answer that doesn't involve a fundamental rebalancing of the entire game and likely another 3E style reboot.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 19:07:56


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Signet-Powers wrote:
Personally, I don't mind the Lasguns sucking as Guardsmen are supposed to be the meatshields to the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery.

The REAL problem is that the heavy weapons, tanks and artillery all suck. Yeah, they're better than the other armies, but not by enough.
Light infantry, and more specifically in my case, a Long Range Penetration Force/ Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol, relies on the ability of its infantry to engage and destroy enemy assets without traditional battlefield support. The infantry are meant to raid enemy supply lines, harass outposts, and when needed may be called upon to support a conventional offensive action by attacking from the rear. The infantry are the core of the entire element. They are not there to provide support for the tanks, or the artillery, instead those things are to provide support for them. Long range penetration forces/ reconnaissance patrols operate behind enemy lines and are purposefully devoid of any heavy support as the inclusion of them would render the unit incapable of actually stealthily penetrating enemy lines. Heavy weapon compensation is provided by long range fire support primarily located at fire bases. An artillery coordinator converses with the fire base and a volley is shot toward the given coordinates. Similarly aircraft are in contact with a ground coordinator that calls in the locations of needed airstrikes or CAS. These support elements are there to support the ground operations that the LRRPS are carrying out. The problem is that the guardsman is so weak that there is no support strong enough to compensate his impotency. The foundation of the guard (the guardsman) is broken so either we choose a new site for the bridge (revamp the game), or we reinforce the foundation (buff). If neither is done, the bridge is just going to sink into the ground.

The guard is not defined by its tanks, but rather by its guardsman. It is the humanizing factor of a man in a universe filled with inhumanity that makes the guard special. Without the guardsman you lose the very thing that makes the guard awesome.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 23:03:47


Post by: Ashiraya


 Vaktathi wrote:
Again, I think fundamentally the game has just shifted so far away from what guardsmen really can be compared against that there's very little that can be done without changing the level of granularity of the game.

Quite simply, even a couple of years ago, Guardsmne were considered pretty useless, and that was before Eldar Jetbikes were BS4 and could take 4 shot S6 36" range weapons on every model in a Troops unit, and before 13pt Necron Warriors could rival Terminators or Plague Marines for resiliency.

When those sorts of things are basic Troops, how cheap does an "all 3's" model like a Guardsmen have to be to be competitive, and at what point does that simply become unwieldy on the board? I think we've already passed that state in the case of the latter issue.

I don't know if there's a particularly great answer that doesn't involve a fundamental rebalancing of the entire game and likely another 3E style reboot.


IOW, the game has painted itself into a corner where it just doesn't work anymore, and repairing it is very difficult to do without breaking it somewhere else.

Which is very true.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 23:52:55


Post by: BlaxicanX


Guardsmen are as good as they can realistically get without becoming silly and elevating the power creep in the game.

Something more productive would be to fix special weapon/heavy weapon squads so that platoons have more fire-power.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/03 23:54:53


Post by: Yoyoyo


The Lasgun is fine, players are intentionally abusing the greater freedom of list-building in 7th to obsolete conventional troops choices and their baseline weapons.

That's why you're having these issues.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 07:09:53


Post by: Selym


Yoyoyo wrote:
The Lasgun is fine, players are intentionally abusing the greater freedom of list-building in 7th to obsolete conventional troops choices and their baseline weapons.

That's why you're having these issues.
Translation: The lasgun was fine in 5th edition, but we've now had two editions of massive power creep.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 07:17:46


Post by: Vaktathi


Well, I don't think it was fine even in 5th (one will notice IG armies generally weren't built around infantry then), but things weren't quite as crazy as they are now.

I don't think the problem can be blamed on list-building shennanigans either. The fact that there are armies which are just all superheavies, or where basic troops are either as resistant to small arms weaponry as terminators or plague marines at fraction of the cost, or are tossing out dozens of S6 shots a turn, has nothing to do with list building shennanigans, and that sort of thing very much does defeat the purpose of the basic lasgun.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 12:41:05


Post by: Ashiraya


The Imperial Knights codex is the top tournament codex by winrate, higher even than Eldar (they have 80% or something of the like) and what good is a lasgun there?

Of course, what good is a bolter there, too?

S6/S7 is always going to be useful because it can actually harm an IK.

What you can't kill with lasgun shots won't really die to 1/3rd as many boltgun shots, either.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 13:31:39


Post by: Kanluwen


 Ashiraya wrote:
The Imperial Knights codex is the top tournament codex by winrate, higher even than Eldar (they have 80% or something of the like) and what good is a lasgun there?
Of course, what good is a bolter there, too?
S6/S7 is always going to be useful because it can actually harm an IK.
What you can't kill with lasgun shots won't really die to 1/3rd as many boltgun shots, either.

Sure, things like Knights won't die to Lasguns or Bolters--but you know what they will die to?

Drop Podded Sternguard Squads with combi weapons or huge amounts of Grav shots, etc.
Guard have access to none of those, except for Allies, and in order to take anti-armor/anti-monster weaponry Guard are paying the exact same price as a Space Marine for the weapon to go on a far less durable/mobile platform.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 13:52:42


Post by: SDFarsight


 Ignatius wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
UrsoerTheSquid wrote:


But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.

That does nothing to alleviate the lack of character. That is a mechanic that replaces the dead guardsmen in a squad with a carbon copy of the now dead. What that does is it makes the guardsman faceless, and replaceable. There is no character in carbon copy schmucks. Furthermore there is no real utility value in that mechanic; it makes the unit more "resilient", but there really isn't a point in targeting them if they are unable to do any significant damage and come back ad-infinitum. This works great for conscripts, and kreigsmen as it gives character to the force. The difference here is distinguishing the characteristics of the force from those of the guardsman.


Okay I'll bite. You must have some idea how to achieve this "re-characterization". How do you think it can be done?

I add character by adding pieces of equipment and posing. For example a few guardsmen may have an inordinate amount of grenades, another few will sling their rifles and be dual wielding trench knives, another few will be swinging swords, their backpacks will have different equipment placements etc. etc. to the point where the guys just holding their rifles are in the minority.


Exactly! All you need is a bit of imagination.

If someone can't attach character to models then frankly I'm not sure why they're playing a tabletop game in the first place. Besides, I thought that guardsmen being numberless, expendable red-shirt rifle platforms were part of their character. If you want loads of chatacters with a backstory behind each one then play something like Space Wolves (or Guants Ghosts, if the latest Codex still has that).


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 17:44:23


Post by: Ashiraya


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
The Imperial Knights codex is the top tournament codex by winrate, higher even than Eldar (they have 80% or something of the like) and what good is a lasgun there?
Of course, what good is a bolter there, too?
S6/S7 is always going to be useful because it can actually harm an IK.
What you can't kill with lasgun shots won't really die to 1/3rd as many boltgun shots, either.

Sure, things like Knights won't die to Lasguns or Bolters--but you know what they will die to?

Drop Podded Sternguard Squads with combi weapons or huge amounts of Grav shots, etc.
Guard have access to none of those, except for Allies, and in order to take anti-armor/anti-monster weaponry Guard are paying the exact same price as a Space Marine for the weapon to go on a far less durable/mobile platform.


And giving IG Sternguard equivalents would not fix guardsmen, not any more than their existence makes Tactical Marines any less bad.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 17:47:12


Post by: Kanluwen


 Ashiraya wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
The Imperial Knights codex is the top tournament codex by winrate, higher even than Eldar (they have 80% or something of the like) and what good is a lasgun there?
Of course, what good is a bolter there, too?
S6/S7 is always going to be useful because it can actually harm an IK.
What you can't kill with lasgun shots won't really die to 1/3rd as many boltgun shots, either.

Sure, things like Knights won't die to Lasguns or Bolters--but you know what they will die to?

Drop Podded Sternguard Squads with combi weapons or huge amounts of Grav shots, etc.
Guard have access to none of those, except for Allies, and in order to take anti-armor/anti-monster weaponry Guard are paying the exact same price as a Space Marine for the weapon to go on a far less durable/mobile platform.


And giving IG Sternguard equivalents would not fix guardsmen, not any more than their existence makes Tactical Marines any less bad.

The point.
You missed it.

In no way, shape, or form should Guard be paying Space Marine prices for equipment with the statlines that Guard have.

Oh yeah, and while we're at it?
It's ridiculous that a Special Weapons Squad or Heavy Weapons Squad can take less of each option than the Marine equivalent and be less survivable.
Special Weapons Squads should be 6 models with Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons Squads should be 6 teams.

Oh, and as an additional point?
It's silly how expensive Guard transports are compared to Marine transports.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:22:16


Post by: Yoyoyo


 Vaktathi wrote:
The fact that there are armies which are just all superheavies... has nothing to do with list building shennanigans, and that sort of thing very much does defeat the purpose of the basic lasgun.
If you show up with 5x Wraithknights or IKs to a friendly game, against Bolter/Lasgun units with a few scattered special/heavy weapons, it's understood the strategy was using list construction to invalidate mandatory CAD choices. Technically legal but it's forcing 40k into rock-paper-scissors territory where the game revolves around the metagame of list construction, not play on the table. Whether you consider that "shenanigans" or legit is a matter of opinion.

 Selym wrote:
Translation: The lasgun was fine in 5th edition, but we've now had two editions of massive power creep.
Exactly, but even more than that -- you've seen the CAD become sub-optimal, rather than the foundation of how 40k was balanced.

The fix is likely going to come from some kind of special rule, rather than the core Lasgun profile. For example, for every 10 shots fired, an unsaveable wound may be allocated within the targeted unit. I'd really doubt any change to the old S3 AP-.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:25:57


Post by: Vaktathi


 Ashiraya wrote:
The Imperial Knights codex is the top tournament codex by winrate, higher even than Eldar (they have 80% or something of the like) and what good is a lasgun there?

Of course, what good is a bolter there, too?

S6/S7 is always going to be useful because it can actually harm an IK.

What you can't kill with lasgun shots won't really die to 1/3rd as many boltgun shots, either.
While you have a point with bolters regarding Knights, and really most "basic" infantry in general can be lumped in there, I would also argue that, at least with most IG lists, there's probably not 3x as many Lasguns as there are bolters.

In fact my 2k CSM list has more bolters than most of the 2K IG lists that I run have Lasguns

Yoyoyo wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
The fact that there are armies which are just all superheavies... has nothing to do with list building shennanigans, and that sort of thing very much does defeat the purpose of the basic lasgun.
If you show up with 5x Wraithknights or IKs to a friendly game, against Bolter/Lasgun units with a few scattered special/heavy weapons, it's understood the strategy was using list construction to invalidate mandatory CAD choices. Technically legal but it's forcing 40k into rock-paper-scissors territory where the game revolves around the metagame of list construction, not play on the table. Whether you consider that "shenanigans" or legit is a matter of opinion.
I guess if put that way sure, but if someone's bringing a Knight army, just composed of Knights, I'm not sure I'd really consider it list building shenanigans despite what other names I might call it. From my point of view, list building shennanigans is taking advantage of the detachment and allies rules to benefit from synergies, abilities, and plugs in ability gaps that the armies were never really designed to have.

I mean, it can contribute to defeating the lasgun having a purpose, getting FNP from BA allies onto TWC bikers certainly helps with that goal, but more fundamentally being T5 with multiple wounds in the first place did most of the trick.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:26:20


Post by: Big Blind Bill


I'm not in favour of changing the lasgun's iconic profile. I think the weapon is fine as it is.

Personally I'd rather see an increase in the number of customisable options for the guardsmen themselves.

I would like to see more special models purchased as part of platoons - priests, commisars, enginseers, psykers, medics, comms, etc.
These could provide special rules which further enhance the squad, and make up for the poor lasgun profile.
They would need to be more readily available and cheaper than some of their current incarnations.
Buffs like preferred enemy and shred would help their damage output.

More special weapons per squad would also be nice, up to 3 per squad. Some might say this invalidates veterans, but remember that an infantry platoon costs more to buy - especially if you are buying multiple of them.

Special doctrines in a similar vein to space marine chapter tactics would also be nice.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:32:23


Post by: Vankraken


 Selym wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
The Lasgun is fine, players are intentionally abusing the greater freedom of list-building in 7th to obsolete conventional troops choices and their baseline weapons.

That's why you're having these issues.
Translation: The lasgun was fine in 5th edition, but we've now had two editions of massive power creep.


Exactly this. Power creep is 100% to blame and GW seems to embrace it to push sales.

To the original problem. The only way I can see helping the standard guardsmen infantry squad is to give them 2 free grenade launchers (clearly that means increasing the number of specialist weapons to 2 per infantry squad) and can exchange them for other weapons at 5 points less the listed cost. Better orders would help them but many armies don't have trouble picking off the command units. Maybe allow vox casters to increase the range for issuing orders and allowing officers inside chimeras to issue orders. Heavy weapon teams should have an option to dig in which increases their cover save or toughness from shooting while also preventing movement.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:34:49


Post by: vipoid


 Kanluwen wrote:

In no way, shape, or form should Guard be paying Space Marine prices for equipment with the statlines that Guard have.


I think this goes double for melee weapons.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh yeah, and while we're at it?
It's ridiculous that a Special Weapons Squad or Heavy Weapons Squad can take less of each option than the Marine equivalent and be less survivable.
Special Weapons Squads should be 6 models with Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons Squads should be 6 teams.


Personally, it's not the special/heavy weapons limit on the aforementioned squads that bothers me. It's the lack of transport options on the former, and the fact that the latter are overcosted and far too fragile.

That being said, I do find myself wondering if a discount is in order for BS3 models. Seems a bit silly that they pay the same as BS4 models for the same guns.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh, and as an additional point?
It's silly how expensive Guard transports are compared to Marine transports.


I think Chimeras would be okay if they still had 5 fire points.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:47:19


Post by: Ignatius


The lasguns profile is indicative of what it is designed to take out- in both the fluff and on the table top. It is capable- not great at- but capable of handling light infantry. Specifically Ork boyz, Tyranid gaunts, other Guardsmen, Eldar Guadians, etc.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen are mostly screwed in situations until the guy with the Special Weapon shows up. Pretty much the same thing on the table too.

So I don't think the solution lies with the profile of the lasgun itself. It needs to be something that makes them better in large quantities. Like has been discussed at length in this thread, I agree with the idea of something akin to 1 auto-wound per 10 lasgun hits. Or every hit past 10 (or 20) in a shooting phase counts as rending. So a squad worth of shooting isn't going to do much, but 5 squads will.

Also, I agree with everything vipoid just said.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 18:50:30


Post by: Kanluwen


 vipoid wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

In no way, shape, or form should Guard be paying Space Marine prices for equipment with the statlines that Guard have.


I think this goes double for melee weapons.

Well, obviously. That's why I said equipment!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh yeah, and while we're at it?
It's ridiculous that a Special Weapons Squad or Heavy Weapons Squad can take less of each option than the Marine equivalent and be less survivable.
Special Weapons Squads should be 6 models with Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons Squads should be 6 teams.


Personally, it's not the special/heavy weapons limit on the aforementioned squads that bothers me. It's the lack of transport options on the former, and the fact that the latter are overcosted and far too fragile.

That being said, I do find myself wondering if a discount is in order for BS3 models. Seems a bit silly that they pay the same as BS4 models for the same guns.

I'd rather they make them worth their points rather than just discounting them.
Heavy Weapons Squads should get a ROF boost if they remain stationary, Special Weapon Squads should get some kind of boost as well. Maybe Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter?


 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh, and as an additional point?
It's silly how expensive Guard transports are compared to Marine transports.


I think Chimeras would be okay if they still had 5 fire points.

I disagree with this. The Chimera never should have had more than one fire point. The Lasgun Arrays are built into the frame of the Chimera, they can't be removed and another weapon pushed through.

Maybe they should get a rule where they can fire more than the usual numbers out of the firing point but no. Just the hatch on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ignatius wrote:
The lasguns profile is indicative of what it is designed to take out- in both the fluff and on the table top. It is capable- not great at- but capable of handling light infantry. Specifically Ork boyz, Tyranid gaunts, other Guardsmen, Eldar Guadians, etc.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen are mostly screwed in situations until the guy with the Special Weapon shows up. Pretty much the same thing on the table too.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen don't fire stupid amounts of shots down range unless it's as suppressive fire or there are just that many enemies. They fire measured shots, aiming for kills whenever possible.



So I don't think the solution lies with the profile of the lasgun itself. It needs to be something that makes them better in large quantities. Like has been discussed at length in this thread, I agree with the idea of something akin to 1 auto-wound per 10 lasgun hits. Or every hit past 10 (or 20) in a shooting phase counts as rending. So a squad worth of shooting isn't going to do much, but 5 squads will.

That adds WAY too much book keeping, to be honest.

Realistically, the best solution is to remove "Rapid Fire" from them and instead give them profiles based upon the range bracket they are firing in.

Rapid Fire has not aged well as a rule, so special rules replacing it kind of seem to be necessary now.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 19:42:36


Post by: vipoid


 Kanluwen wrote:

I disagree with this. The Chimera never should have had more than one fire point. The Lasgun Arrays are built into the frame of the Chimera, they can't be removed and another weapon pushed through.


I thought the point was that the central hatch was large enough for several guardsmen to fire out of.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 20:03:59


Post by: Vankraken


 vipoid wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

I disagree with this. The Chimera never should have had more than one fire point. The Lasgun Arrays are built into the frame of the Chimera, they can't be removed and another weapon pushed through.


I thought the point was that the central hatch was large enough for several guardsmen to fire out of.


The Inquisition Codex Chimera allows for 5 weapons to shoot out the center hatch (but it doesn't have the lasguns sticking out the sides).


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 21:41:55


Post by: Baldeagle91


 Vankraken wrote:
To the original problem. The only way I can see helping the standard guardsmen infantry squad is to give them 2 free grenade launchers (clearly that means increasing the number of specialist weapons to 2 per infantry squad) and can exchange them for other weapons at 5 points less the listed cost. Better orders would help them but many armies don't have trouble picking off the command units. Maybe allow vox casters to increase the range for issuing orders and allowing officers inside chimeras to issue orders. Heavy weapon teams should have an option to dig in which increases their cover save or toughness from shooting while also preventing movement.


Chimeras are command vehicles... thus officers can still issue orders from them....

I personally was thinking of expanding many forge world units to the codex such as the Centaur and make them command vehicles.... we tested it, it was not really OP and gave the units a decent amount of survivability.... maybe return the salamander tanks troop carrying capacity?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 21:43:48


Post by: Tactical_Spam


Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 21:58:41


Post by: Ignatius


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ignatius wrote:
The lasguns profile is indicative of what it is designed to take out- in both the fluff and on the table top. It is capable- not great at- but capable of handling light infantry. Specifically Ork boyz, Tyranid gaunts, other Guardsmen, Eldar Guadians, etc.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen are mostly screwed in situations until the guy with the Special Weapon shows up. Pretty much the same thing on the table too.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen don't fire stupid amounts of shots down range unless it's as suppressive fire or there are just that many enemies. They fire measured shots, aiming for kills whenever possible.


Hmm. I suppose that is fair. Though in real life thousands of rounds are fired for every enemy combatant eliminated, and that's against standard humans without space magic armor.



So I don't think the solution lies with the profile of the lasgun itself. It needs to be something that makes them better in large quantities. Like has been discussed at length in this thread, I agree with the idea of something akin to 1 auto-wound per 10 lasgun hits. Or every hit past 10 (or 20) in a shooting phase counts as rending. So a squad worth of shooting isn't going to do much, but 5 squads will.

That adds WAY too much book keeping, to be honest.

Realistically, the best solution is to remove "Rapid Fire" from them and instead give them profiles based upon the range bracket they are firing in.

Rapid Fire has not aged well as a rule, so special rules replacing it kind of seem to be necessary now.


I was just trying to help with the brainstorming, not really making anything concrete. Though having to determine each individual guardsmans distance from the target to determine their weapon profile seems like a bit of book keeping too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:06:12


Post by: Kanluwen


 Ignatius wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Ignatius wrote:
The lasguns profile is indicative of what it is designed to take out- in both the fluff and on the table top. It is capable- not great at- but capable of handling light infantry. Specifically Ork boyz, Tyranid gaunts, other Guardsmen, Eldar Guadians, etc.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen are mostly screwed in situations until the guy with the Special Weapon shows up. Pretty much the same thing on the table too.

In the fluff, the Guardsmen don't fire stupid amounts of shots down range unless it's as suppressive fire or there are just that many enemies. They fire measured shots, aiming for kills whenever possible.


Hmm. I suppose that is fair. Though in real life thousands of rounds are fired for every enemy combatant eliminated, and that's against standard humans without space magic armor.

That's also because in real life, combat doctrine right now is primarily for rapid advancement and a "Take, take, take!" mentality. Holding down a fortified position becomes a very different style of warfare and a very different combat doctrine.



So I don't think the solution lies with the profile of the lasgun itself. It needs to be something that makes them better in large quantities. Like has been discussed at length in this thread, I agree with the idea of something akin to 1 auto-wound per 10 lasgun hits. Or every hit past 10 (or 20) in a shooting phase counts as rending. So a squad worth of shooting isn't going to do much, but 5 squads will.

That adds WAY too much book keeping, to be honest.

Realistically, the best solution is to remove "Rapid Fire" from them and instead give them profiles based upon the range bracket they are firing in.

Rapid Fire has not aged well as a rule, so special rules replacing it kind of seem to be necessary now.


I was just trying to help with the brainstorming, not really making anything concrete. Though having to determine each individual guardsmans distance from the target to determine their weapon profile seems like a bit of book keeping too.

You have a certain distance that models within a unit have to remain and you measure from the bases of models.
This isn't AoS where you can have models within a unit that are posed leaning back and being unable to fire versus models within the unit that are leaned forward and able to fire(something I've had happen in AoS with my Waywatchers--which is both hilarious and soul crushing when firing at a daggone Bloodthirster running at you!).

Keeping track of the distance that Guardsmen(which are going to be squadded and you'll have a certain amount of leeway thanks to unit coherency rules) are at is going to be vastly easier than keeping track of the hits from multiple squads in an army which could have 6+ squads in a reasonably small/normal games.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:07:41


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:11:49


Post by: Selym


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues
Hey look, no boobies:

Spoiler:





The armour squishes it in, and the clothes can obscure the body form. Faces can be bad casts. Though, tbf, the models are clearly intended to represent men.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:22:20


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Selym wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues
Hey look, no boobies:

Spoiler:





The armour squishes it in, and the clothes can obscure the body form. Faces can be bad casts. Though, tbf, the models are clearly intended to represent men.


Courtesy of Fantasy Flight Games
Not only Boob armour, but theres a black Cadian

Spoiler:




The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:26:25


Post by: Martel732


Step 1: make tanks not suck

Then check to see if any other step are necessary.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:32:23


Post by: Kanluwen


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues
Hey look, no boobies:

Spoiler:





The armour squishes it in, and the clothes can obscure the body form. Faces can be bad casts. Though, tbf, the models are clearly intended to represent men.


Courtesy of Fantasy Flight Games
Not only Boob armour, but theres a black Cadian

Which doesn't even make sense because Cadia is a relatively closed breeding pool, with nothing but pale skin and violet eyes.

What DOES make sense however is that particular Guardsman is in this magical thing called "shadow". Unless you want to argue that half of his equipment has magically turned black as well?

Spoiler:

You understand the difference between combat armor and a dress uniform, right?

Spoiler:

So? They've also had art that depicted a Tyranid Gaunt as being a short-tailed thing the size of a poodle or a pug.
Spoiler:


Once again:
Combat armor != dress uniform. Commissars are wearing dress uniforms.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:41:33


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues
Hey look, no boobies:

Spoiler:





The armour squishes it in, and the clothes can obscure the body form. Faces can be bad casts. Though, tbf, the models are clearly intended to represent men.


Courtesy of Fantasy Flight Games
Not only Boob armour, but theres a black Cadian

Which doesn't even make sense because Cadia is a relatively closed breeding pool, with nothing but pale skin and violet eyes.

What DOES make sense however is that particular Guardsman is in this magical thing called "shadow". Unless you want to argue that half of his equipment has magically turned black as well?


Spoiler:

You understand the difference between combat armor and a dress uniform, right?

Spoiler:

So? They've also had art that depicted a Tyranid Gaunt as being a short-tailed thing the size of a poodle or a pug.
Spoiler:


Once again:
Combat armor != dress uniform. Commissars are wearing dress uniforms.


Commisars have flak armour... Mordians have flak armour... Everybody wears body armour but the Catachans


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:44:17


Post by: Selym


Look at all that solid boob armour:

Spoiler:







The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:44:30


Post by: Kanluwen


 Tactical_Spam wrote:


Commisars have flak armour... Mordians have flak armour... Everybody wears body armour but the Catachans

I understand that, but what you need to be understanding is that per the background material that we've had?

Those two examples you put out there aren't wearing actual combat armor but rather are wearing dress uniforms with plates integrated. Commissars in the past have been mentioned as actually having the plates for their armor inside of their longcoats.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 22:47:49


Post by: Ignatius


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues
Hey look, no boobies:

Spoiler:





The armour squishes it in, and the clothes can obscure the body form. Faces can be bad casts. Though, tbf, the models are clearly intended to represent men.


Courtesy of Fantasy Flight Games
Not only Boob armour, but theres a black Cadian

Which doesn't even make sense because Cadia is a relatively closed breeding pool, with nothing but pale skin and violet eyes.

What DOES make sense however is that particular Guardsman is in this magical thing called "shadow". Unless you want to argue that half of his equipment has magically turned black as well?


Spoiler:

You understand the difference between combat armor and a dress uniform, right?

Spoiler:

So? They've also had art that depicted a Tyranid Gaunt as being a short-tailed thing the size of a poodle or a pug.
Spoiler:


Once again:
Combat armor != dress uniform. Commissars are wearing dress uniforms.


Commisars have flak armour... Mordians have flak armour... Everybody wears body armour but the Catachans


No, they wear a hybrid dress uniform with what is essentially kevlar woven into the threads.

But I can tell you right now that men and women do NOT have different kinds of equipment in military's. It is incredibly ignorant to think that women wear "boob armor". That doesn't happen now, nor would it in the future. It makes no sense in any situation.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 23:30:15


Post by: MarsNZ


Great derailment. A single throwaway troll line and everyone's losing their mind over boob armour.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 23:32:57


Post by: Yoyoyo


 MarsNZ wrote:
Great derailment. A single throwaway troll line and everyone's losing their mind over boob armour.
Classic dakka


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 23:33:12


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Ignatius wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Make guardswomen models and bam! crisis averted


Why do you assume that all the models from the current Cadian sprues are men?


No boobs. And Im sure I know what a female face is and they dont look like the ones on the cadian sprues
Hey look, no boobies:

Spoiler:





The armour squishes it in, and the clothes can obscure the body form. Faces can be bad casts. Though, tbf, the models are clearly intended to represent men.


Courtesy of Fantasy Flight Games
Not only Boob armour, but theres a black Cadian

Which doesn't even make sense because Cadia is a relatively closed breeding pool, with nothing but pale skin and violet eyes.

What DOES make sense however is that particular Guardsman is in this magical thing called "shadow". Unless you want to argue that half of his equipment has magically turned black as well?


Spoiler:

You understand the difference between combat armor and a dress uniform, right?

Spoiler:

So? They've also had art that depicted a Tyranid Gaunt as being a short-tailed thing the size of a poodle or a pug.
Spoiler:


Once again:
Combat armor != dress uniform. Commissars are wearing dress uniforms.


Commisars have flak armour... Mordians have flak armour... Everybody wears body armour but the Catachans


No, they wear a hybrid dress uniform with what is essentially kevlar woven into the threads.

But I can tell you right now that men and women do NOT have different kinds of equipment in military's. It is incredibly ignorant to think that women wear "boob armor". That doesn't happen now, nor would it in the future. It makes no sense in any situation.


umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
 MarsNZ wrote:
Great derailment. A single throwaway troll line and everyone's losing their mind over boob armour.
Classic dakka


Sig'd


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 23:49:07


Post by: Kanluwen


 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 23:56:21


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".


If we could go from a Gaunts Ghosts perspective, guard are badasses. Lasguns arent S3 any where in the fluff. Ive read plenty of times where they shoot through power armour(!).

Tanks are bread to the infantrymans butter. None of those tanks are worth the cost


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/04 23:58:44


Post by: Yoyoyo


 Kanluwen wrote:
There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points
It was discussed at length in a 50-60pg thread.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:01:22


Post by: Ignatius


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".


If we could go from a Gaunts Ghosts perspective, guard are badasses. Lasguns arent S3 any where in the fluff. Ive read plenty of times where they shoot through power armour(!).

Tanks are bread to the infantrymans butter. None of those tanks are worth the cost


Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:07:42


Post by: Vaktathi


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".
Aye, this is pretty much what it boils down to. I went through that thread and gave my opinions on general functionality and cost changes I thought would be appropriate.

Upon reflection, I think we just fundamentally have a scale issue with 40k trying more and more to be Epic. Even if IG get the pricing cuts they really should get, how much more can IG armies stuff in before they literally run completely out of deployment zone space, and how long will games have to take with 20 tanks and 4x as much infantry in a 2k army


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:11:31


Post by: Kanluwen


Yoyoyo wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points
It was discussed at length in a 50-60pg thread.

Yup, which was locked because of OT and circular discussions.

Ignatius wrote:Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

On the contrary, Cadian regiments (or those founded by Cadian descendants) have been stated to make up a disproportionate amount of the Guard's strength in any given warzone.

You send your best to the warzones where they are needed. Cadia's a world that exports nothing but soldiers, so do you really think that they aren't going to be showing up everywhere? Catachan falls under the same thing, as does Mordia. The only real one that is going to be a "tiny fraction"(and by the time of "modern" 40k as well barring the vagueries of the Warp and time dilation effects, long dead and gone) are the Tanith 1st.

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

To be fair the eye slits are not the only weak point. The neck, inside of the elbows, armpits, pelvic region and the back of the knees are all said to be weak points as well since they are that ribbed joint material we see on the models.

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.

You've just given me a thought...

Maybe Orders should work like Canticles of the Omnissiah. The more units you have on the field that have "Voice of Command", the more effective the Orders are?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".
Aye, this is pretty much what it boils down to. I went through that thread and gave my opinions on general functionality and cost changes I thought would be appropriate.

Upon reflection, I think we just fundamentally have a scale issue with 40k trying more and more to be Epic. Even if IG get the pricing cuts they really should get, how much more can IG armies stuff in before they literally run completely out of deployment zone space, and how long will games have to take with 20 tanks and 4x as much infantry in a 2k army

Maybe we should get a unique deployment method; breaking our army into "waves" that arrive on designated turn numbers?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:29:08


Post by: Ignatius


 Kanluwen wrote:
Ignatius wrote:Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

On the contrary, Cadian regiments (or those founded by Cadian descendants) have been stated to make up a disproportionate amount of the Guard's strength in any given warzone.

You send your best to the warzones where they are needed. Cadia's a world that exports nothing but soldiers, so do you really think that they aren't going to be showing up everywhere? Catachan falls under the same thing, as does Mordia. The only real one that is going to be a "tiny fraction"(and by the time of "modern" 40k as well barring the vagueries of the Warp and time dilation effects, long dead and gone) are the Tanith 1st.


I know the Cadians crank out soldiers like no other, and I know they can sometimes be found in huge numbers in warzones, but I didn't know they make up disproportionate amounts in "any" given warzone. I always assumed that the stories to feature battles where there are large amounts of well known regiments than those from "Planet Blue Blue Shiny Ball 12".

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

To be fair the eye slits are not the only weak point. The neck, inside of the elbows, armpits, pelvic region and the back of the knees are all said to be weak points as well since they are that ribbed joint material we see on the models.


Don't take the wind out of my sails when I'm trying to stick it to someone

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.

You've just given me a thought...

Maybe Orders should work like Canticles of the Omnissiah. The more units you have on the field that have "Voice of Command", the more effective the Orders are?


Sure that could work, and is a lot like what I am thinking. There could even be a couple. Where the "Voice of Command" idea you have reflects a competent and distinct command structure, making the force as a whole better. And perhaps another almost like the Orks Mob Rule, where if there are enough bodies around they don't particularly care about things like "leadership". After all, humans are social creatures and can be convinced to do just about anything given enough people to follow.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:30:20


Post by: Swastakowey


Id like to know where the actual fluff for Cadians being the main force of the Guard is... (or their descendants) because I have yet to read it anywhere but online.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:41:55


Post by: Kanluwen


Not "the main force of the Guard", but a disproportionate number.

It is not a single piece of fluff, but rather a collation of pieces. There was mention in various sources(Uplifting Primer and a few others) that Cadian equipment and training is used on worlds settled by Cadian veterans that have mustered out, hence the statement I made.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:44:39


Post by: Swastakowey


I was very certain this happens to all guard units who do that... not just cadians.

In other words... you made an assumption...


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:53:02


Post by: Vaktathi


 Kanluwen wrote:

Maybe we should get a unique deployment method; breaking our army into "waves" that arrive on designated turn numbers?
Perhaps, not sure how that could work but maybe? Another option might be to introduce a recycling mechanism ("send in the next wave"). Just a basic quick though exercise off the top of my head, but maybe something like "every time a unit is killed, roll a D6, return it to play the following turn arriving as if from reserve" or have a "pool" of points you can use to return stuff to play as the game goes on or something.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 00:58:17


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Ignatius wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".


If we could go from a Gaunts Ghosts perspective, guard are badasses. Lasguns arent S3 any where in the fluff. Ive read plenty of times where they shoot through power armour(!).

Tanks are bread to the infantrymans butter. None of those tanks are worth the cost


Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.


A lasgun liquidized the helmet of a CSM in the first part of Gaunts Ghosts


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 01:24:38


Post by: BlaxicanX


It was a hot-shot round, and he was explicitly not wearing a helmet. Assuming you're referring to First and Only.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 01:25:54


Post by: Kanluwen


 Swastakowey wrote:
I was very certain this happens to all guard units who do that... not just cadians.

In other words... you made an assumption...

Er no. I made an educated inference.

If you want the thing which really supports my inference?
The 13th Black Crusade: The grievous history of Abaddon's most terrible invasion, as written by one who saw it all unfold",p.95 wrote:
Soldiers, I speak to you to tell you to keep faith with the God-Emperor. We have a sacred duty greater than any of us. We are Cadians, we bar the gate to hell, if it is breached, we will seal it.

Whereever you are, recruit, recruit and train. Seek out pious men and bring them under your colours. While the Shock Troops march toward Cadia hope remains. Know that we will never cease the fight while our world lies desecrated and burned. March on my soldiers, march on til we are together again, tomorrow, on Cadia.

-Ursukar E. Creed, Lord Castellan of Cadia

Written by Andy Hoare and published by Black Library in 2004. It has been mentioned a few times as being given out to authors writing about the Cadians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
It was a hot-shot round, and he was explicitly not wearing a helmet. Assuming you're referring to First and Only.

If we're talking about "First and Only", there is actually a bit where a Vitrian Dragoon cranks the power of his Lasgun up to the highest charge setting and slags the head of an Iron Warriors Terminator.

But it basically depletes the entirety of an unused power cell and screws with the gun's internals.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 01:29:24


Post by: Swastakowey


That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 02:30:14


Post by: Bobthehero


 BlaxicanX wrote:
It was a hot-shot round, and he was explicitly not wearing a helmet. Assuming you're referring to First and Only.


The hotshot round decapitated a helmeted CSM. But it was fired from a longlas at maximum point blank range.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 02:32:20


Post by: Kanluwen


 Swastakowey wrote:
That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

That's fine. You are more than welcome to think that.


Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

You're using the term wrong. An "assumption" is made with no proof or evidence for one's assertions.

Just because you do not agree with my assertions does not mean that they are false.
The term you are looking for here is "supposition", which is an assumption made from known facts.

The "known facts" are that if we look at any of the force orgs for major battles that GW has published, Cadians are pretty much always listed.
Additionally we know that when Regiments are raised on new worlds, they will take the name of those worlds rather than the name of the regiments that settled on the world. So a world which was settled by mustered out Cadians would not be called a "Cadian Shock Troop" regiment but would take the name of their world and use similar equipment/training.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 02:39:17


Post by: Swastakowey


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

That's fine. You are more than welcome to think that.


Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

You're using the term wrong. An "assumption" is made with no proof or evidence for one's assertions.

Just because you do not agree with my assertions does not mean that they are false.
The term you are looking for here is "supposition", which is an assumption made from known facts.

The "known facts" are that if we look at any of the force orgs for major battles that GW has published, Cadians are pretty much always listed.
Additionally we know that when Regiments are raised on new worlds, they will take the name of those worlds rather than the name of the regiments that settled on the world. So a world which was settled by mustered out Cadians would not be called a "Cadian Shock Troop" regiment but would take the name of their world and use similar equipment/training.


You have no proof though. You have none at all... so yes it is an assumption. An educated guess would mean somewhere it has been hinted that Cadians (in gear or flesh) make up the majority of fighting forces. This has never been hinted by GW. Feel free to prove me wrong there (so far you have not). Without the fact your assumption stays assumption.

Oh ok, so because GW likes Cadians it's safe to assume they make up most of the Guard? By that logic everything in the imperium (or at least 99.99%) are white males no matter their planet of origin.

As I said, a world settled by Mordians would do the same thing the Cadians would, fashion their military in a similar manner. By your logic Mordians would also make up the majority of the Imperial Guard?

Please actually find something to back up your statement, because there is a lot of fluff talking about how diverse and varied the imperial guard is... but none saying they are mostly Cadian in style.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 03:07:39


Post by: Kanluwen


Codex: Imperial Guard 3rd edition, 2nd Codex wrote:
Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.


So yeah. I'm sorry I don't have the remainder of the information I could have(White Dwarfs from the time) handy, but I think we've diverted this enough. You're more than welcome to believe what you like, but by that same vein until you can produce evidence to the contrary I'm sticking with what I said.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 03:11:41


Post by: Swastakowey


 Kanluwen wrote:
Codex: Imperial Guard 3rd edition, 2nd Codex wrote:
Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.


So yeah. I'm sorry I don't have the remainder of the information I could have(White Dwarfs from the time) handy, but I think we've diverted this enough. You're more than welcome to believe what you like, but by that same vein until you can produce evidence to the contrary I'm sticking with what I said.


Thats what you should have posted the first time. I have only seen this online, I must have missed this in my 3rd ed codex.

It does say many though, not disproportionate. Huge difference. There are many Americans for example, but they Americans are not a disproportionate number of the world.

Even by your evidence disproportionate does not come into the equation.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 03:14:26


Post by: Tactical_Spam


 Swastakowey wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

That's fine. You are more than welcome to think that.


Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

You're using the term wrong. An "assumption" is made with no proof or evidence for one's assertions.

Just because you do not agree with my assertions does not mean that they are false.
The term you are looking for here is "supposition", which is an assumption made from known facts.

The "known facts" are that if we look at any of the force orgs for major battles that GW has published, Cadians are pretty much always listed.
Additionally we know that when Regiments are raised on new worlds, they will take the name of those worlds rather than the name of the regiments that settled on the world. So a world which was settled by mustered out Cadians would not be called a "Cadian Shock Troop" regiment but would take the name of their world and use similar equipment/training.


You have no proof though. You have none at all... so yes it is an assumption. An educated guess would mean somewhere it has been hinted that Cadians (in gear or flesh) make up the majority of fighting forces. This has never been hinted by GW. Feel free to prove me wrong there (so far you have not). Without the fact your assumption stays assumption.

Oh ok, so because GW likes Cadians it's safe to assume they make up most of the Guard? By that logic everything in the imperium (or at least 99.99%) are white males no matter their planet of origin.

As I said, a world settled by Mordians would do the same thing the Cadians would, fashion their military in a similar manner. By your logic Mordians would also make up the majority of the Imperial Guard?

Please actually find something to back up your statement, because there is a lot of fluff talking about how diverse and varied the imperial guard is... but none saying they are mostly Cadian in style.


We could use the same logic to say the Ultrasmurfs are a majority of the Space marines... oh wait... they are


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 03:16:25


Post by: Yoyoyo


 Kanluwen wrote:
locked because of OT and circular discussions
Not much has changed


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 07:48:41


Post by: Alcibiades


GW will almost certainly in the new codex address this issue, going by precedent, by reworking the orders system, not be changing lasgun or guardsman statlines.

Thats exactly what they did with the marines codex (tactical doctrines) and with Daemonkin and Mechanicus/Skitarii, to some extent with Eldar and Necrons. Army- or formation-wide benefits that are either static (the Eldar 6" run thing, Move through Cover etc. for Necrons) or triggered by player decision (doctrines, canticles, blood tithe benefits).

What Guard will likely get is thus some kind of improved orders system akin to Marine tactical/assault/devastator doctrines..


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 11:11:00


Post by: Aben Zin


Actually Cadia could provide a completely disproportionate number of guardsmen, but they'd still make up only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the Imperial Guard. It's a question of scale - the galaxy is BIG! Like, REALLY big! A disproportionate number is still a drop in the ocean when you talk about the whole of the Imperial Guard.

Their prominence in the fluff is mainly due to the importance of the Cadian Gate.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 11:42:26


Post by: Ir0njack



Range 24" / Str 3 / Ap - / Salvo 2/3

FRFSRF adds +1 to both salvo values.


I would dig lasguns like this!

Personally I like the structure of infantry platoons but man do I wish was there was more incentives to take heavy weapon squads or even special weapon squads. I could see HWS getting a shrouded or stealth type rule that kicks in after they've set still "Entrenched Positions", let them share it if infantry squads that buy them for your traditional "hold the line" guard.

For SWS I could see them getting "Weapon familiarity" aka
•torrent flamers
•reroll 1s plasma but still gets hot on a miss
•snipers reroll hits with a "spotter/las guardsman" present
•grenade launchers shred
•demo charges scatters half *he practiced throwing*
I don't see any of these being OP, and fairly straight and to the point While adding "character" to them.

Of course there are other things like, deathridering or finally killing off rough riders, pushing the range of stormies out to 24", increase in hull points and/or return of lumbering behemoth for russes that I'd like to see along with price drops to bring guard into a nicer place. Overall though, I think IG has alot of character but vocal folks keep wanting XYZ to make "extra special regiment" or make them more like modern military. While I understand the appeal of such a idea, it doesn't fit with the fluff often times, the exceptional regiments are often just that, exceptions to a largely "standardized" force that uses archaic and very brutal tactics, for a regime that values the rifle in their hands and victory more than the soldier's life.

Give me a good solid codex, with 3-5 nifty formations and stick and a extra special excess in a well composed suppliment/s and I'll be happy.

I'm not gonna get knightworlder regiments anyways


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 16:49:36


Post by: Sledgehammer





Overall though, I think IG has alot of character but vocal folks keep wanting XYZ to make "extra special regiment" or make them more like modern military. While I understand the appeal of such a idea, it doesn't fit with the fluff often times, the exceptional regiments are often just that, exceptions to a largely "standardized" force that uses archaic and very brutal tactics, for a regime that values the rifle in their hands and victory more than the soldier's life.




There is really no standard to the guard though. Regiments are drawn from all different kinds of planets and people. Guardsmen range from criminals, mutants, abhumans, undesirables, conscripts, pdf veterans, farmers, etc. Equipment given to the guardsmen is largely dependent on the world where they are drawn from. Some regiments aren't even given modern weaponry and are left equipped with stone weapons and clubs. Other regiments may even have equipment that rivals or beats that of storm troopers. Some regiments are more apt at fighting in the streets (hive gangers), and others may be better suited to fighting in the trees (tanith). The only thing that is universally standardized within the guard is that #1 there are guardsmen and #2 that they serve the emperor. To have a codex that standardizes guard to such a degree DOES take away the character of the guard. I cannot actually represent my light infantry lrrp / aircav regiment on the tabletop as the guard has been relegated to line infantry and combined arms tactics.

The munitorium may or may not value the rifle more than the man, but in order for that to be represented, the rifle itself would need to actually be more useful than the wounds that its carrier posses.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 17:23:02


Post by: Intercessor


It almost sounds like Renegades without any of the chaos options would still fare better competitively than imperial guard, is that right?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 18:26:54


Post by: Selym


Intercessor wrote:
It almost sounds like Renegades without any of the chaos options would still fare better competitively than imperial guard, is that right?
At this stage, pretty much.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Overall though, I think IG has alot of character but vocal folks keep wanting XYZ to make "extra special regiment" or make them more like modern military. While I understand the appeal of such a idea, it doesn't fit with the fluff often times, the exceptional regiments are often just that, exceptions to a largely "standardized" force that uses archaic and very brutal tactics, for a regime that values the rifle in their hands and victory more than the soldier's life.


There is really no standard to the guard though. Regiments are drawn from all different kinds of planets and people. Guardsmen range from criminals, mutants, abhumans, undesirables, conscripts, pdf veterans, farmers, etc. Equipment given to the guardsmen is largely dependent on the world where they are drawn from. Some regiments aren't even given modern weaponry and are left equipped with stone weapons and clubs. Other regiments may even have equipment that rivals or beats that of storm troopers. Some regiments are more apt at fighting in the streets (hive gangers), and others may be better suited to fighting in the trees (tanith). The only thing that is universally standardized within the guard is that #1 there are guardsmen and #2 that they serve the emperor. To have a codex that standardizes guard to such a degree DOES take away the character of the guard. I cannot actually represent my light infantry lrrp / aircav regiment on the tabletop as the guard has been relegated to line infantry and combined arms tactics.

The munitorium may or may not value the rifle more than the man, but in order for that to be represented, the rifle itself would need to actually be more useful than the wounds that its carrier posses.
Exactly this.

Known regiments are:

-Cadia: A force of shocktroopers. Highly trained and with standardized equipment. Specialize in fighting Chaos (who needs GK's anyway?), and give solid beatings to pretty much everything else. Akin to the British military if it had the production capacity of the USA.

-Catachan: Jungle fighters. It's Rambo taken up to eleventy-thousand. Have a "more explosives = more better" attitude.

-Tallarn Desert Raiders: Lawrence of Arabia, crossed with organised Taliban.

-Steel Legion: Post-apocalyptic mechanized regiment. Specialize in hostile environs and Ork warfare.

-Death Korps of Kreig: WW1 if it reached the nuclear age, and just continued forever.

-Moridian Iron Guard: British colonial powers with layzors.

-Vostroyan First Borns: I can't remember much about them, but they take the first born son of every family on Vostroya, and give them ornately carved, gold-plated, and highly effective guns.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 19:44:23


Post by: Psienesis


-Vostroyan First Borns: I can't remember much about them, but they take the first born son of every family on Vostroya, and give them ornately carved, gold-plated, and highly effective guns.


They are like Tsarist Russians with tanks and laser guns. They even wear the big bear-skin hats. Or, alternately, an idealized version of WW2 Soviet soldiers.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 20:22:35


Post by: Bobthehero


Aren't WW2 Soviets Valhallans?


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 22:20:55


Post by: Psienesis


That would be... exceptionally ill-toned of GW, if so, given the historic conflicts between the Nordic nations and Russia.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 22:24:07


Post by: Bobthehero


And yet...







The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 22:28:21


Post by: Psienesis


A Vostroyan, by comparison:

Warning, image is huge.

Spoiler:





The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 22:29:46


Post by: Selym


Image = not so huge


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/05 22:34:46


Post by: Psienesis


... I'm on a 48" HDTV @1920x1080 and the image takes up over half the vertical view... those on smaller screens may find the experience less-than-ideal.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 00:27:59


Post by: Ignatius


Praetorian's are British Colonial Era with lasers, but Mordians always had a more Prussian/Germanic feel to me.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 01:21:50


Post by: Ir0njack


-Cadia: M36 Kantrael Pattern Lasgun, Flak Armour,
-Catachan: Mark IV Lascarbine, Flak vest,
-Tallarn Desert Raiders: M36 Pattern Lasgun, Flak Vest & Flak Helmet
-Steel Legion:M36 Pattern Lasgun, Flak Armour,
-Death Korps of Kreig: Lucius Pattern Lasgun,
-Moridian Iron Guard: Triplex Pattern Lasgun, Flak Vest
-Vostroyan First Borns: M36 Kantrael Pattern Lasgun, Flak Armour
and lets not forget the guardsman's most important piece of equipment, the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. issued to all guardsman a disciplinary offense for not being able to present!

I wont deny that there are exceptions by far and and large the equipment of the guard is all standard, lasgun, flak armor, grenades, a close combat weapon. all that good stuff. As far as vehicles go, try any funny business and the Admech with turn you into a servitor, if the commissar doesn't blam you first. Are all the aesthetics and specializations of all these regiments different? Yes, but that doesn't mean there isn't a standard that they have to meet and, heck imperium has a specific department just for keeping regiments in line and ensuring they operate withing certain parameters.

There are going to be certain short coming in every dex, certain things that you just can pull off despite how hard you try. I don't think that means the army doesnt have character, just not the kind your looking for. Whether it's aircav or chivalrous mechanized heavy infantry there are gonna be limits, they cant cover everything, and I honestly believe the codex would suffer if they tried due to lack of direction.



The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 02:02:02


Post by: Swastakowey


Lasgun in 40k is like the word gun today. "Someone has a gun" could mean the person is armed with one of thousands of style of small arms.

So when a guardsmen has a Lasgun/Autogun/crossbow/bow/black power weapon/club/nothing they could be armed with one of the untold number of variants. Many of which differ wildly from each other.

This is very much the same for armour.

I mean, yes a lasgun is usual standard for the guard... but the lasgun could mean many things.

I actually think with a small expansion book which focuses solely on rules for making your own Guard force (and contains the rules for the famous ones) alongside the normal "Cadian" book would be more than enough to cover everything a guard player could want.

They should do this for all factions. They won't though.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 11:35:37


Post by: Selym


 Psienesis wrote:
... I'm on a 48" HDTV @1920x1080 and the image takes up over half the vertical view... those on smaller screens may find the experience less-than-ideal.
Your aspect ratio is wonky


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 17:13:21


Post by: Spineyguy


To be perfectly honest, I think the codex works pretty well. I can't see any reason to make Lasguns more powerful as some people are suggesting, because it is, by its very nature, a basic infantry weapon. Nor can I see much point in lowering unit costs, because Guard can already spam as much infantry as one could ever reasonably need.

The question of regimental doctrines is an interesting one. I can't help but think that your average Guardsman, even in a specialist regiment, would not have enough of a talent for it to be reflected on the tabletop. Veterans, yes, but perhaps not regular Guardsmen. The bonus granted from what amounts to perhaps two weeks of extra training would be so small that there'd be really no point in giving it a special rule.

That said, perhaps it would instead be a case of giving the regular Guardsmen a toned-down version of the doctrines purchased by Vets. Like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, you could have a selection of free doctrines representing some of the most common specialisations, which grant a special rule to Veterans and a 'light' version of it to regular units (Stealth for Vets, reroll 1s on Cover Saves for Regulars, for example).

What matters more, in my mind, is updating the model range (fixing the scale on Cadians and getting rid of those hideous Catachan models, perhaps), and with fixing units like Rough Riders, which haven't had any love in years.

One pet hope of mine is that one day Rough Riders will be available in Platoons, like they are in the Death Korps.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 17:31:16


Post by: master of ordinance


Why not buff the Lasgun? The Marines got Grav and Centurions and massive buffs to many units and vehicles.

The Necrons got supertermies as basic troops for 13 points.

The Eldar got Scatbikes and the stupid ability to spam the D.

Tau are getting two new GC suits, both with stupid levels of firepower and both costing in at only the 360 mark, as well as a stealth Riptide and several other dickery level units

The Guard get.... What? The Lasgun has been useless for several editions now. With all this power inflation it needs a buff too.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 19:05:54


Post by: Selym


 master of ordinance wrote:

The Guard get.... What? The Lasgun has been useless for several editions now. With all this power inflation it needs a buff too.
Because the guard are the only faction that's supposed to be fluff accurate - i.e. Die by the thousands and be utterly ineffectual until the marines turn up.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 19:23:31


Post by: Kanluwen


 Selym wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:

The Guard get.... What? The Lasgun has been useless for several editions now. With all this power inflation it needs a buff too.
Because the guard are the only faction that's supposed to be fluff accurate - i.e. Die by the thousands and be utterly ineffectual until the marines turn up.

Hey now, Orks and Tyranids are fluff accurate too.

And Chaos Marines!


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 21:29:42


Post by: Selym


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:

The Guard get.... What? The Lasgun has been useless for several editions now. With all this power inflation it needs a buff too.
Because the guard are the only faction that's supposed to be fluff accurate - i.e. Die by the thousands and be utterly ineffectual until the marines turn up.

Hey now, Orks and Tyranids are fluff accurate too.

And Chaos Marines!
Whoo! Uselessness ftw!

Side note, though, the Orks, Nids and CSM never get called "good enough", and are regularly pelted with suggestions for improvement by everyone else. The IG, meanwhile, gets glared at for daring to ask for decent infantry.


The guard and the guardsmen @ 2015/10/06 21:35:10


Post by: master of ordinance


 Selym wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:

The Guard get.... What? The Lasgun has been useless for several editions now. With all this power inflation it needs a buff too.
Because the guard are the only faction that's supposed to be fluff accurate - i.e. Die by the thousands and be utterly ineffectual until the marines turn up.

Hey now, Orks and Tyranids are fluff accurate too.

And Chaos Marines!
Whoo! Uselessness ftw!

Side note, though, the Orks, Nids and CSM never get called "good enough", and are regularly pelted with suggestions for improvement by everyone else. The IG, meanwhile, gets glared at for daring to ask for decent infantry.


Aye, that pretty much seems to be the case. 'Nids can have endless swarms of Gaunts (not very strong, we know) but fluffwise they are cheap, weak and expendable. And yet everytime they ask for improvements people make suggestions and agree with them.

On the other foot though the Guard have terrible Infantry which are worse off than the Tyranids are and yet should we even dare ask for even the slightest buff we get shouted down.