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Post by: alex0911
Whats your opinion?
CSM, DE and orks here
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Post by: Nevelon
LotD is technically a codex. I don’t think they have anything that prevents them from auto-looseing turn one, as they have to DS everything.
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Post by: Lobokai
CSM /thread
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Post by: Vaktathi
Probably CSM's followed closely by Orks and IG, with BA's and DE not far above (though they at least have access to a handful of "ok" powerful formations even if they don't match the newer books).
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Post by: Martel732
Does this include FW? Because I voted based off FW options.
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Post by: kronk
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
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Post by: alex0911
nah idc about FW 
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Post by: pm713
Pretty sure it is LOTD seeing as they cannot actually win.
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Post by: rowboatjellyfanxiii
 Nevelon wrote:LotD is technically a codex. I don’t think they have anything that prevents them from auto-looseing turn one, as they have to DS everything.
Even though they have one unit it's a codex in a codex?
WTF are you smoking?
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Post by: oldzoggy
I want to change my vote pure LOTD is an auto lose ...
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Post by: Cleatus
CSM. Actually, I suppose it depends on what your definition of "is" is. 
Certainly not Orks. Orks is neva defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin' so it don't count. If we runz for it we don't lose either, cos we can come back for annuver go, see?!  
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Post by: Quickjager
Militarum Tempestus.
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Post by: Merellin
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: Nevelon wrote:LotD is technically a codex. I don’t think they have anything that prevents them from auto-looseing turn one, as they have to DS everything.
Even though they have one unit it's a codex in a codex?
WTF are you smoking?
Well, they DO actualy have a official GW iBook codex, Thats a stand alone codex.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-SE/Codex-Legion-of-the-Damned-Interactive-iBook-Edition
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Post by: Lammikkovalas
I voted for BA. I kinda do feel sorry for those guys.
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Post by: Nevelon
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: Nevelon wrote:LotD is technically a codex. I don’t think they have anything that prevents them from auto-looseing turn one, as they have to DS everything.
Even though they have one unit it's a codex in a codex?
WTF are you smoking?
I wish I was smoking something, but they are officially a codex. I think it was actually in print, and not just an e-book at one point, but don’t quote me on that. But it was sold as a codex, not just a dataslate, or a supplement, or anything sane. The fact that they weren’t removed from the marine codex was a pleasant surprise. Blatant cash grab from GW, and one I’m still a little torqued off about. I can kinda see a Imperial Knights book, even if it is basically another mono-unit codex. But the whole idea of having a full codex for one unit makes me ill.
A quick search looks like people were talking about it circa March of ’14. So not that old.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Harlies with CSM second.
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Post by: Experiment 626
I wouldn't count single unit or fringe books like LotD or Inquisition, etc... Even Harlies aren't really meant to be played as a stand alone book and are meant to be allied onto another army for support.
Going by the 'off the shelf' books you can get from the local GW store, Chaos Marines are easily the outright worst stand alone codex. Even the oft lamented Blood Angels will kick the living snot out of all but the most min/maxed net-listed CSM list.
No formations or alternate FOC, limited equipment options, overcosted across the board, an assault army that can't viably get itself into assaults... No one is worse off right now than the poor Chaos Marines, with the sole exception being anyone who tries to start a new Sisters army! (only because it's damn near impossible now to get your hands on half the models - their list itself is again, much better than anything CSM's can put down)
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Post by: oldzoggy
CSM>ORKS>LOTD
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Without FW, it is easily CSM, which is how I made my vote. I don't count the LotD as a codex so much as a Dataslate.
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Post by: Martel732
With FW, I think CSM are better than BA for sure. Especially right now with the helldrake doing work on scatbikes and DA bikes. And bikes in general.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Adepta sororitas. No new units since 3rd, and even had some taken away.
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Post by: Martel732
Sisters are still better than CSM and BA. Even with their low unit diversity. Sad, but true
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Post by: Ashiraya
Someone voted Eldar?
Wut?
I wonder who.
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Post by: pm713
Yeah it's not like some people have massive prejudice against them or anything.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Sisters of Battle.
Honorable mentions go to CSM, orks, and Dark Eldar.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 Jimsolo wrote:Sisters of Battle.
Honorable mentions go to CSM, orks, and Dark Eldar.
SoB may be rare, old, expensive models, outdated in design and have almost no list variation, but they actually perform okay with melta bumrushing.
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Post by: Lammikkovalas
Oh and where can I find that White Scars codex that's listed among the options?
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Post by: master of ordinance
Imperial Guard. Our armour is terrible and the only thing worse than it (IE, the only thing it works against) is the Lasgun - otherwise known as our main weapon.
Our units are overpriced, our latest codex was essentially one massive nerf from the old codex, our weapons are mostly useless.... Look, there are hundreds of threads on the subject, do I really need to go on?
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Post by: Martel732
Still better than ba.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Oh man I forgot about them, yeah, as an army, they're awful.
"Hey man, AP3 is pretty sweet"
"Yeah, not so much on S3 guns with a 9" double-tap range on T3 Ld7/8 dudes that cost as much as Space Marines".
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Post by: Ashiraya
I still don't see why they do this. 40k is in need of more granularity. Everything that is not super duper special should not be 3 or 4 in everything.
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Post by: jreilly89
The poll implies otherwise.
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Post by: Lammikkovalas
Popular opinion does not determine the actual truth.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
It is a race for last between Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marines.
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Post by: oldzoggy
Why does everybody think that they are worse then orks ? Automatically Appended Next Post: CSM and Blood angels are no space marines for sure but they do have quite a few quite effective builds at least.
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Post by: vipoid
Does Coven count for pure DE? If not, I think we have a winner. 
Otherwise, they're just floating around the same level as the other bad books on this list - IG, CSM, BA, SoB. Of those, I don't know which is outright worst. Probably doesn't help that I haven't seen any of the latter 3 in ages.
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Post by: Lammikkovalas
 oldzoggy wrote:
Why does everybody think that they are worse then orks ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM and Blood angels are no space marines for sure but they do have quite a few quite effective builds at least.
In B4 Martel: What are those effective BA builds?
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Post by: master of ordinance
Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle. One lacks firepower and survivability the other consists of overpriced units and a notable lack of long range shooting.
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Post by: NoiseMarine with Tinnitus
As much as it pains me to say it, I agree CSM. Both the models and Codex are a mess, which is such a wasted opportunity considering they are one of the main protagonists of the 40k setting.
Sadly, I am not holding my breath for their update. Please GW, prove me wrong and I will mortgage my soul for a fresh army.
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Post by: Drasius
CSM --> Guard --> BAngels --> Harlequins --> Viable stand alone armies.
Ork at least have green tide and Bully Boyz + Battlewagon spam, both of which have dne well, and the unkillable ork stompa does OK for itself in casual lists.
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Post by: Lammikkovalas
 Drasius wrote:CSM --> Guard --> BAngels --> Harlequins --> Viable stand alone armies.
Ork at least have green tide and Bully Boyz + Battlewagon spam, both of which have dne well, and the unkillable ork stompa does OK for itself in casual lists.
Just keep in mind that anything unkillable will do at least ok against casual lists.
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Post by: ionusx
militarium tempestus is objectively the worst codex, your basically fielding units that cost as much as space marines do with the stats of guard veterans, and then you get an overcosted valkyrie and the lol traktor to fight against enemies with about a bazillion ways to kill you. they have the least amount of unit options objectively and they have thw worst rules of any codex.
the next one up is probably harleys mainly because their the only mini-dex with a hard counter in imperial knights. they field more than 1 knight and its epic handshake before turn 1 even happens. you simply cant kill them as a harley and thats a huge issue.
cult mechanicus is probably next in line, they need the skitarii to be effective, orbbed of the second half of the mechanium their fighting with a foot in a bucket and largely need to wait for an opportunity to murder you, one that might never present itself.
orks are fourth in line their mob rule and bad leadership punish them so bad its brutal, and they just dont have answers to lots of current meta problems like magic space, the ever expaning menagerie of ludicrous monstrous creatures and ever power jacking bikes/jetbikes and other murderous alphastrike units
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Post by: Mallich
 ionusx wrote:militarium tempestus is objectively the worst codex, your basically fielding units that cost as much as space marines do with the stats of guard veterans
A codex where every single unit is simply a unit from another codex, but moved around the force organization chart. The only difference in stats between their MT and AM versions? The MT codex shipped with a typo that gave their fancy special weapon "Gets Hot". Classy, GW. At least some of the orders are interesting. Still isn't stopping me putting some Mantic enforcers together as scions. We gamers have issues. :/
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Post by: vipoid
ionusx wrote:militarium tempestus is objectively the worst codex, your basically fielding units that cost as much as space marines do with the stats of guard veterans, and then you get an overcosted valkyrie and the lol traktor to fight against enemies with about a bazillion ways to kill you. they have the least amount of unit options objectively and they have thw worst rules of any codex.
They weren't on the list, but yeah they're probably the worst in the game.
ionusx wrote:
the next one up is probably harleys mainly because their the only mini-dex with a hard counter in imperial knights. they field more than 1 knight and its epic handshake before turn 1 even happens. you simply cant kill them as a harley and thats a huge issue.
I kinda feel the same way about MT as I do about Harlequins - they really don't have enough stuff to be separate books. And if they're supposed to only be taken with other armies, why split them up from those armies in the first place?
ionusx wrote:
cult mechanicus is probably next in line, they need the skitarii to be effective, orbbed of the second half of the mechanium their fighting with a foot in a bucket and largely need to wait for an opportunity to murder you, one that might never present itself.
Is Cult Mechanicus really that bad?
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Post by: Tarvitz77
Eldar have gotta be the worst. No one playing you is far worse than losing! HURRR HURRR DURRR...
But seriously, I've put down Harlequins. I just can't see how they're supposed to get by without support from their fellow eldar. Even the much maligned lasgun puts them down without trouble, and they cost so much!
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Post by: blofeld
Dark Eldar are awful. They require a great deal of skill to even effectively kill anything and winning is nigh on impossible especially against MEQs. So hard to play they're not even enjoyable to collect personally despite having a very high quality of minis across the board pretty much
Thanks
Blofeld
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Post by: Martel732
Everyone ranking orks and ig above csm and ba are completely discounting the power of huge numbers of dice.
Tempestus yes is terrible and I forgot about them. I guess they actually win. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doesn't really matter when math is in play. Appeal to popular opinion fallacy.
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Post by: vipoid
blofeld wrote:Dark Eldar are awful. They require a great deal of skill to even effectively kill anything and winning is nigh on impossible especially against MEQs. So hard to play they're not even enjoyable to collect personally despite having a very high quality of minis across the board pretty much
Thanks
Blofeld
I think they suffer from the same problems as BA and IG, in that they basically got left behind. Most other races got a lot of shiny new units, more powerful weapons, cost reductions, and other special rules to make them even better. In contrast, these books received a load of nerfs and barely any buffs (as an example, compare the number of special rules in the 7th edition Eldar book to the number in the 7th edition DE book).
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Post by: Ratius
Who is voting Eldar
Voted Harlies here.
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Post by: Lammikkovalas
Dboy who is mad at Super Friends beating those space elves?
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
How are Temepestus the worst? They aren't great, but they do special weapon spam just okay, and can get Locator Beacons for their Deep strikers on their vehicles.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:How are Temepestus the worst? They aren't great, but they do special weapon spam just okay, and can get Locator Beacons for their Deep strikers on their vehicles.
Primarily because they die like guardsmen, while costing as much as Space Marines, and are a painfully one-dimensional army with extremely limited support options and are pretty much entirely reliant on said painfully overcosted infantry to do the bulk of every job, be it anti-tank, anti- MC, anti-horde, etc.
And, as cool as AP3 is, with S3 guns that only get to double-tap within 9", they're pretty bad.
The army just doesn't function particularly well.
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Post by: vipoid
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:How are Temepestus the worst? They aren't great, but they do special weapon spam just okay
Really? I thought they were stuck at 2 special weapons per 5.
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Post by: nareik
Voted imperial knights as they just seem like a novelty. Nearly voted other for Legion of the Damned, but at least I can enjoy building/painting lots of cool models to write my lists with, even if I autolose turn 1. I think knights work as a little bit of spice to a meal, rather than having an entire meal of spice!
I don't see how so many people voted CSM, I love the (admittedly imperfect) codex and have enjoyed every game I've played with and against it, even if it is autolose turn 4 instead of turn 1 .
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Tempestus don't have any ludicrously undercosted units, broken formations, null deployment tricks or superstar named characters to lean on, and those tend to dominate competitive play at 1850pts.
Their actual units are fine, they're pretty much even with Tacs/Razorbacks or Vets/Chimera. The overarching issue is power creep, not really the S3 AP3 gun.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Yoyoyo wrote:Tempestus don't have any ludicrously undercosted units, broken formations, null deployment tricks or superstar named characters to lean on, and those tend to dominate competitive play at 1850pts.
Their actual units are fine, they're pretty much even with Tacs/Razorbacks or Vets/Chimera.
The problem is that they can't take Chimeras (in the Tempestus book), and they cost 5ppm more than a Veteran unit and can't take as many special/heavy weapons. A Veteran Unit can take 3 specials and a heavy, a Scion unit can only take 2 specials. Veterans come in squads of 10 for 60pts, you get half as many Scions for the same points. Likewise, relative to Tacs, they're significantly less survivable without being any killier, and can't even offer an attritional threat in CC (e.g. a 5man tac squad with a powerfist can threaten many HQ's and put at least *some* hurt on an MC, a Scion squad's not gonna do squat).
There's a reason nobody bothers with the Scion units even in IG armies. Hell, the Scions never worked well for the ~7-8 months they were around before the rapid escalation of power creep that started with Necrons.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
Vak, the command squads get 4x specials+krak, troop survivability comes from better deployment options and alpha strike disruption (not their statline), and the Taurox Prime has a few advantages that chimeras don't get (fast Obsec, better guns, BS4, better dismount hatches, fire ports).
Your points are valid but at the end of the day they are different units and need to be played differently. You need to capitalize on their strengths and not play them as 1/2 size vet squads.
IG armies revolve around castling gunlines or parking lots, they need mass and have awful mobility with which to support DS troops. Scions are worse as IG elites than as a primary IMO, and I think this is coloring your opinion
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Post by: Tactical_Spam
 master of ordinance wrote:Imperial Guard. Our armour is terrible and the only thing worse than it (IE, the only thing it works against) is the Lasgun - otherwise known as our main weapon.
Our units are overpriced, our latest codex was essentially one massive nerf from the old codex, our weapons are mostly useless.... Look, there are hundreds of threads on the subject, do I really need to go on?
Lets not forget Sly Marbo
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Post by: Ghazkuul
Drasius wrote:CSM --> Guard --> BAngels --> Harlequins --> Viable stand alone armies.
Ork at least have green tide and Bully Boyz + Battlewagon spam, both of which have dne well, and the unkillable ork stompa does OK for itself in casual lists.
Except that Green Tide, Bully Boyz and Battlewagon formations are all in the Waaagh Ghazkuul Supplement Codex and not in Codex Orks.
And the Unkillable Ork Stompa dies in 1-2 turns if confronted with a melta drop pod or D weapons.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Aye, the command squads do, but so do both IG command squad types for a whole lot fewer points, and you can actually get more command squads (scion and otherwise) into a single IG FoC than out of a Scion FoC.
[qutoe] troop survivability comes from better deployment options and alpha strike disruption (not their statline) They're not really an alpha strikey army. They have to come in from reserves, and without the benefit of something like Drop Pods and Drop Pod Assault, and cannot bring the same sorts of threats to bear, their entire schtick is pretty much special weapon spam.
and the Taurox Prime has a few advantages that chimeras don't get (fast Obsec, better guns, BS4, better dismount hatches, fire ports).
At the cost of a significantly higher price and lower frontal armor and in an army that can't adequately saturate the board with armor.
Your points are valid but at the end of the day they are different units and need to be played differently. You need to capitalize on their strengths and not play them as 1/2 size vet squads.
I get that, but the problem is that they don't really offer much besides Deep Striking that vet squads don't. That's the problem.
IG armies revolve around castling gunlines or parking lots, they need mass and have awful mobility with which to support DS troops. Scions are worse as IG elites than as a primary IMO, and I think this is coloring your opinion
I've played a few games with the book, watched a lot more, I don't think I've ever seen them win a game on their own. I've also played a DKoK Assault Brigade (another Stormtrooper based army) for 2 years now. I'd like to think I have a fair idea of what's involved with the army.
I'll expand on that. They're a mobile army of ostensibly elite troops operating with Fast vehicles and Flyers. On paper, looks interesting.
The problem is that, with the way 40k currently works, they just don't operate very well. Fundamentally, they have four units.
Scion Command Squads. 4x special weapons, orders, on their own, not terrible. The problem is that all the other infantry need to deploy near them to operate at full effectiveness and with any degree of morale support, and the squad is not particularly hard to remove and is a high priority target you can't do a whole lot to protect.
Scion squads. On paper, DS ability with AP3 guns looks cool. The problem is they die, and break (on Ld7/8), like Veterans that are half their cost. Their shortened weapon range dramaticlly lowers effectiveness, and the AP3 is unreasonably difficult to put to effective use being only S3. Essentially, they've got a statline that cannot support their special abilities. This can be mitigated by the presence of command squads, however the support from the command squad is not guaranteed (orders rolls can fail) and that support really isn't an augmentation they way it is with IG armies, but rather a crutch to make them effective at all. Once that command squad support is gone (or, more cruelly, has simply failed to arrive from reserves when deep striking), their effectiveness drops dramatically and they're generally no longer able to engage anything of similar cost on anything near an equal basis. Their reliance on the command squads also limits their deployment options, and if something doesn't arrive when it should, your battle plan is probably broken.
More critically, these guys basically have to do everything. Your infantry have to be your primary AT. They have to be your primary anti-infantry. They have to be your primary anti- MC. They have to be your bubble wrap and your CC defense. The problem is you just don't have enough to adequately accomplish all of the former roles when you need them done, and they're simply too expensive for the latter.
Taurox Prime: Again, on paper, they look great with a heavy weapon, BS4, 4 fire points, and Fast. In theory, quite useful. The problem is that they cost significantly more than Razorbacks, Chimeras, Raiders, etc, without being really any more survivable, and cannot be taken in numbers to adequately over-saturation opposing AT assets the way you can with IG tank armies. It's one thing when you've got 18 AV12 tanks on the board, it's another when there's maybe six or seven AV11 vehicles on the board. They are also the only long range firepower in the army, which adds a mutually exclusive duality to their role, in that they want to run forward and deliver their troops, but also want to sit back and shoot, they can't really do both. They also don't provide *enough* firepower to really deal with an array of threat types, leaving yet more work for the Scion infantry to have to do. If it's AV14, or a 2+ save, or really anything that's able to Jink, the Scions are probably going to be stuck dealing with it. Also, it can't utilize all 4 of those firing points, it can really only use two at any one time. Crucially, it's also not a Tank, and cannot be used to push enemy infantry off of an objective. If you start loading it with kit like Auger arrays, its missile launcher, smoke launchers, etc, it starts getting into almost into Leman Russ tank pricing, for a Rhino equivalent chassis.
Valkyries. An AV12 flyer transport. Kinda cool, not easy to kill, but other than transport capacity it's not bringing much to the table. In terms of firepower, at best if can carry a single BS3 lascannon and a couple of S4 missile pods, and are easily within Leman Russ tank pricing.
So, we get a whole bunch of fast, mobile units, but nothing has staying power, there's very little raw volume of firepower, there's very little range to the firepower of the army, and you have to rely on your relatively small number very easily killed and broken infantry to do the softening up, bubble-wrapping, line breaking, gap exploiting, objective grabbing, anti-heavy tank, anti-heavy infantry, anti- MC work.
Sorry, that ended up being *way* longer than I intended
TL;DR version: It's an Imperial Guard army that wants to play like Eldar, with Dire Avenger+1 units (if we're being generous, I think I'd take Dire Avengers in most cases), but with support units only half as good (at best), very little of the resiliency of Eldar transports, very little of the long range firepower that Eldar can bring to bear, and none of the specialist Aspect units that allow Eldar to bring the right tool for the role job.
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Post by: nareik
No one has yet voted for the following:
Necrons 0% [ 0 ]
Space marines 0% [ 0 ]
Space wolves 0% [ 0 ]
Chaos daemons 0% [ 0 ]
Dark angels 0% [ 0 ]
White scars 0% [ 0 ]
I'm not sure what to take from that, but there it is.
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Post by: DoomShakaLaka
Squats, because they don't have one anymore.
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Post by: alex0911
nareik wrote:No one has yet voted for the following:
Necrons 0% [ 0 ]
Space marines 0% [ 0 ]
Space wolves 0% [ 0 ]
Chaos daemons 0% [ 0 ]
Dark angels 0% [ 0 ]
White scars 0% [ 0 ]
I'm not sure what to take from that, but there it is.
And 2 people didnt get the question because they did pick tau... 
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Post by: greatbigtree
My vote goes to my Astra Militarum.
I've had greater success with the Blood Angels codex... which I've given up in order to play proper Marines. Codex is junk when you can play Ultramarines in a BA style, and have better success. :(
CSM isn't that bad. They've got issues, and creep has beat them down to lowest teir MEQ army, but they aren't as bad when you actually try to win a game as Guard. They aren't forced to rely upon immobile infantry, or nearly immobile vehicles.
Anyhow, Guard are mostly a victim of the win conditions of 7th edition, more than being ostensibly bad. You can't make a codex in the IG style, with win conditions that require you to move. The whole codex is essentially the opposite of Eldar, which are pretty much crushing the win conditions right now.
If Eldar and Necrons are top dogs, I can't find anything more diametrically opposed to them, then IG. Immobile, and super fragile.
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
Tempestus and Harlequins. Can't decide between the two.
Even CSM is more competitive than these guys, especially when FW is included.
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Post by: Yoyoyo
That's the Veteran "schtick" and I'd respectfully disagree. Scions do reserve deployment, on-call Obsec, backfield penetration, drop Melta, or long-range firefights with Volleyguns. So their uses are usually completely different.
Almost every criteria you are measuring by, is the ability of a unit to get shot to pieces in enormous numbers before returning fire. I'll give you that IG is better at this.
I mean, I've never seen Scions criticized for being poor at bubblewrapping, and I have no idea why you'd bubblewrap a 80-100pt vehicle anyway, but you have a point I guess? Why put 10pt smoke launchers on a fast+shooty BS4 transport, not a HK missile? Why are "only 2" fire points a significant drawback on a squad with 2 special weapons? You're making valid criticisms that are completely disconnected to how the army is effectively played.
At 500-750pts they're awesome as a mono-codex. They need lots of support above that and certain tourney restrictions will hit them much harder than most. But the units themselves can win games. That Tempestus primary at Adepticon (~1000pts) outperformed every IG primary.
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Post by: SirDonlad
Voted 'other' because i couldn't see 'Tempestus Militarum' on the list.
all thats in it is a commissar, a command squad, a scion squad, the taurox, a standard valkyrie (no vendetta) and two formations made from that unit selection.
I think thats a winner personally.
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Post by: Trasvi
I've actually seen some very interesting mono-harlequins builds lately. The ability to spam haywire weapons and some very deadly (but fragile) combat troops means they can compete alright against some of the 'power' armies like Knights or Battle Company.
Excluding 'not really a codex' codexes, CSM are probably the worst. Their competitive representation in tournaments is generally limited to Belakor + Cultists.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Trasvi wrote:I've actually seen some very interesting mono-harlequins builds lately. The ability to spam haywire weapons and some very deadly (but fragile) combat troops means they can compete alright against some of the 'power' armies like Knights or Battle Company.
Excluding 'not really a codex' codexes, CSM are probably the worst. Their competitive representation in tournaments is generally limited to Belakor + Cultists.
Belakor isn't even in the codex, he's a dataslate add-on...
The only things that are even semi-competitively worth taking are MSU Plaguemarines, MSU Noise Marines (purely for the Blastmaster + Doom Siren), Oblits, AoBF Jugger Lord w/Spawn escort, MSU Bikers, Cultists and potentially a Helldrake.
Everything else is simply at best 'average', even in purely fun/non-competitive style games. You know your codex is bad when freaking Autocannons are considered your best gun for trying to put out mid-strength + HoR shooting!
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Post by: PandaHero
100% Militarum Tempestus.
Some people might say it's not a codex, but if you included Skit, Cult, Harli and Knights in your list, then it should be there too.
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Post by: Ghazkuul
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
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Post by: Lobokai
 Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
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Post by: Ghazkuul
 Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.
86452
Post by: Frozocrone
I dunno, people thought my list was good. Link is in the description!
Would probs go IG myself.
91895
Post by: Ghazkuul
This is how I would counter your list. Have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukkz containing your meganobz and 1 unit of Tankbustas. They are basically now worthless the rest of the game.
Have the rest of my army focus fire the remaining trukk with Tankbustas in it. Again destroy it and they are now worthless the rest of the game. I know that sounds really easy and doesn't math hammer because im not using specific units but realistically it is incredibly easy to pop a trukk. And for every explodes result you get on a trukk (+2 for AP2 weapons and +3 for AP1 meaning 4 or a 5 makes it explodes) you will lose about 45% of your unit because 6+ armor means you die to a stiff breeze. And if you do suffer an explodes and you do lose 25-45% of your unit you then have to take a morale test, which you will probably fail and then suffer a further 1-6 casualties to Mob rule because (Reasons) unless your unlucky and roll a 1 which means your boyz run away.
So now after popping 3 AV10 transports I have neutered your armies effectiveness, you have 2 squads of boyz that are still mobile, and depending on who got first turn you might not even be able to get to me in turn 2 before I pop 1 or both of those trukkz. The only really good threat is the bikes which will feth up whatever they choose because Jink allows them a free pass. The Lobbas are great for fething up infantry but useless for vehicles. So that brings me to the point I made earlier the only good competitive lists come from the supplement and FW. Otherwise we are Lackluster at best.
44276
Post by: Lobokai
Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.
Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.
91895
Post by: Ghazkuul
Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.
Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.
'
Its the same faction but not the same codex, if you need to bring it as an allied detachment then it isn't the same codex. You can't take gear from the Waaagh supplement and put it on your Codex Ork guys.
53939
Post by: vipoid
Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.
It's an interesting point.
I mean, at the very least, supplements require extra investment. So, there's certainly an argument to be made that they shouldn't qualify in this regard.
86452
Post by: Frozocrone
In which case DE probably take the cake as worst codex.
44276
Post by: Lobokai
Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.
Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.
'
Its the same faction but not the same codex, if you need to bring it as an allied detachment then it isn't the same codex. You can't take gear from the Waaagh supplement and put it on your Codex Ork guys.
Good lord child, I know. Reading comprehension
22093
Post by: Lord Yayula
Ghazkuul wrote:
This is how I would counter your list. Have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukkz containing your meganobz and 1 unit of Tankbustas. They are basically now worthless the rest of the game.
Have the rest of my army focus fire the remaining trukk with Tankbustas in it. Again destroy it and they are now worthless the rest of the game. I know that sounds really easy and doesn't math hammer because im not using specific units but realistically it is incredibly easy to pop a trukk. And for every explodes result you get on a trukk (+2 for AP2 weapons and +3 for AP1 meaning 4 or a 5 makes it explodes) you will lose about 45% of your unit because 6+ armor means you die to a stiff breeze. And if you do suffer an explodes and you do lose 25-45% of your unit you then have to take a morale test, which you will probably fail and then suffer a further 1-6 casualties to Mob rule because (Reasons) unless your unlucky and roll a 1 which means your boyz run away.
So now after popping 3 AV10 transports I have neutered your armies effectiveness, you have 2 squads of boyz that are still mobile, and depending on who got first turn you might not even be able to get to me in turn 2 before I pop 1 or both of those trukkz. The only really good threat is the bikes which will feth up whatever they choose because Jink allows them a free pass. The Lobbas are great for fething up infantry but useless for vehicles. So that brings me to the point I made earlier the only good competitive lists come from the supplement and FW. Otherwise we are Lackluster at best.
Tailoring against a list isn't really that hard and any codex can do it. Also "have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukks" I guess you are assuming any army 2 heavy weapon and not orks since they need a lot more to do so. So lets think of things in the CSM (Not because they are the worst codex but because I know the codex well enough to tell you stats and options) To take out long range stuff you either got your oblies, havocs or maybe a forge fiend.
A 3 Oblie unit costs 237 points, the only "long" range weapons they have are lascannons and plasma cannons, assuming they use the lascannon since it is easier to hit with it and no chance to overheat. 3 Lascannons with BS4 would do 2 hits, 1.666 of those 2 would be penetrating hits, out of that 0.555 hits will result on an exploded result and 0.2777 on an immobilize, with 3 oblies that doesn't even statistically takes out a trukk and that is commiting one of the best units on the codex which costs 80 more points that a trukk filled with bustas.
Even if the trukk does explodes statistically it does 1.4583 effective wounds on your bustas so you will usually lose one and half of the time 2 bustas, that is hardly 60% of your unit unless you were fielding 5 bustas instead of 10 on the trukk.
Havocs with autocannons were the fuzz back in the day, but with all the ignores cover, AP3 or million of AP- wounding stuff going around nowadays I see less of them in the table, however... a unit with 4 autocannons, which is probably the best loadout would shoot 8 times, hit 5.333, score 2.666 penetratings which would wreck it for sure once you add the glancing hits without harming any busta inside, out of those 2.66 penetratings 0.4444 would be an explosion which means it will rarely happen. If the trukks get any kind of cover they should survive the shots even from the havocs.
So as long as you bring more than one trukk which is pretty much the same for any transport you can't take all of them down before they deliver their cargo, unless you are playing tau, necrons or eldar which treat the orks just the same as any other army and shoot them to shreds with the same ease
98385
Post by: NoobPwner
Blood Angels are fairly gash. So are Dark Eldar, but Blood Angels shade it. Pretty bad.
98168
Post by: Tactical_Spam
Tempestus Scions... literally 5 units in that codex
73007
Post by: Grimskul
Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote: Lobukia wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.
Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.
I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.
Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.
' Its the same faction but not the same codex, if you need to bring it as an allied detachment then it isn't the same codex. You can't take gear from the Waaagh supplement and put it on your Codex Ork guys.
Good lord child, I know. Reading comprehension
He's just looking for attention. In his mind the Orks are the ultimate underdog and have little to no redeeming qualities as an army and wants to bash this idea into every 40K discussion thread possible. It's Orky I grant you, but not always true to the topic at hand. Orks aren't strong by themselves but there are other codices that are weaker by far.
86452
Post by: Frozocrone
Lord Vayula you've also got to take into account Pinning, Morale and Mob Rule (which you'll pass 50% of the time)
Trukks are Fragile but they are the cheapest way to get something somewhere sharpish.
Also in this hypothetical scenario I roll 6's for all the ramshackle tests
49644
Post by: MrFlutterPie
I would agree that Militarum Tempestus is the worst.
Yet that doesn't stop me from wanting to build a small 500pts add on converted up as Colonial Marines.
96964
Post by: marcman
I'd be pretty affraid of using Cult by itself, without allying with Skitarii its like playing greynights who decided to recycle they're armor into guns
73007
Post by: Grimskul
 MrFlutterPie wrote:I would agree that Militarum Tempestus is the worst.
Yet that doesn't stop me from wanting to build a small 500pts add on converted up as Colonial Marines.
They definitely fit the Kill-Team aspect of 40K more than large scale games.
53939
Post by: vipoid
marcman wrote:I'd be pretty affraid of using Cult by itself, without allying with Skitarii its like playing greynights who decided to recycle they're armor into guns
Sorry, but could someone elaborate on what makes Cult Mechanicus bad without Skitarii?
7684
Post by: Rune Stonegrinder
I voted other, SOB and CSM are my tied choices as utter poop to play.
91895
Post by: Ghazkuul
 Lord Yayula wrote: Ghazkuul wrote:
Tailoring against a list isn't really that hard and any codex can do it. Also "have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukks" I guess you are assuming any army 2 heavy weapon and not orks since they need a lot more to do so. So lets think of things in the CSM (Not because they are the worst codex but because I know the codex well enough to tell you stats and options) To take out long range stuff you either got your oblies, havocs or maybe a forge fiend.
A 3 Oblie unit costs 237 points, the only "long" range weapons they have are lascannons and plasma cannons, assuming they use the lascannon since it is easier to hit with it and no chance to overheat. 3 Lascannons with BS4 would do 2 hits, 1.666 of those 2 would be penetrating hits, out of that 0.555 hits will result on an exploded result and 0.2777 on an immobilize, with 3 oblies that doesn't even statistically takes out a trukk and that is commiting one of the best units on the codex which costs 80 more points that a trukk filled with bustas.
Even if the trukk does explodes statistically it does 1.4583 effective wounds on your bustas so you will usually lose one and half of the time 2 bustas, that is hardly 60% of your unit unless you were fielding 5 bustas instead of 10 on the trukk.
Havocs with autocannons were the fuzz back in the day, but with all the ignores cover, AP3 or million of AP- wounding stuff going around nowadays I see less of them in the table, however... a unit with 4 autocannons, which is probably the best loadout would shoot 8 times, hit 5.333, score 2.666 penetratings which would wreck it for sure once you add the glancing hits without harming any busta inside, out of those 2.66 penetratings 0.4444 would be an explosion which means it will rarely happen. If the trukks get any kind of cover they should survive the shots even from the havocs.
So as long as you bring more than one trukk which is pretty much the same for any transport you can't take all of them down before they deliver their cargo, unless you are playing tau, necrons or eldar which treat the orks just the same as any other army and shoot them to shreds with the same ease
3 lascannons with BS4 = 2 Hits, they need 1s to Glance and 2s to pen (S9 vs Av10) So they automatically inflict 2 HPs out of 3. statistically you have a better chance of getting 2 penetrating hits and almost no chance of Ramshackle doing anything because it is a 1/6 chance to negate. So again, statistically 2 penetrating hits. Since its AP2 and trukkz are open topped you have a 1/3 chance per pen to explode the trukk. And that's one of the most expensive units in the game for 3 Lascannons. Hell a Laspred is cheaper.
Against Tau, Eldar, SM and IG Trukkz tend to disappear rather quickly.
Also as a Side note, I dont think orks are weakest.
98168
Post by: Tactical_Spam
 Grimskul wrote: MrFlutterPie wrote:I would agree that Militarum Tempestus is the worst.
Yet that doesn't stop me from wanting to build a small 500pts add on converted up as Colonial Marines.
They definitely fit the Kill-Team aspect of 40K more than large scale games.
From a kill team perspective, these are your bread and butter
80637
Post by: krodarklorr
Necrons are in a tough spot right now.
/sarcasm
CSM fo real, doh.
91895
Post by: Ghazkuul
also if a trukk explodes thats however many auto S4 hits. orks are T4 meaning 50/50 wounds and with 6+ armor they die so in a unit of 10 Ork boyz or tank bustas, 5 will be wounded and 4 or 5 will die, force a leadership check, and if they fail they have a 50/50 to run away or to do another D6 S4 wounds to themselves which would average to another 1-3 dead orks, effectively destroying the unit entirely.
53939
Post by: vipoid
Well, the design team apparently said to themselves 'how can we make Necrons even less fun to play against?'
So, it depends how loosely we interpret 'worst'.
80999
Post by: jasper76
CSM, generally, followed by Tyranids.
The Tyranid book is just bad...one might argue that at least you can take 3-20 Flyrants, but that means you'd need to buy 3-20 Flyrant models, which qualifies as bad to me.
91541
Post by: DoomShakaLaka
 jasper76 wrote:CSM, generally, followed by Tyranids.
The Tyranid book is just bad...one might argue that at least you can take 3-20 Flyrants, but that means you'd need to buy 3-20 Flyrant models, which qualifies as bad to me.
What kind of nutso apocalypse game are you playing in with 20 flyrants!! 
69226
Post by: Selym
That's my vote too. Moving to IG felt like an upgrade, and they're still bad.
80637
Post by: krodarklorr
 vipoid wrote:
Well, the design team apparently said to themselves 'how can we make Necrons even less fun to play against?'
So, it depends how loosely we interpret 'worst'.
Touche' sir, lol.
80999
Post by: jasper76
 DoomShakaLaka wrote: jasper76 wrote:CSM, generally, followed by Tyranids.
The Tyranid book is just bad...one might argue that at least you can take 3-20 Flyrants, but that means you'd need to buy 3-20 Flyrant models, which qualifies as bad to me.
What kind of nutso apocalypse game are you playing in with 20 flyrants!!
Admittedly an exaggeration. I ended on o buying 2 of them, I could never get myself to buy a 3rd.
95560
Post by: Baldeagle91
I don't really think the guard dex is bottom tier... it's outdated sure, but you can have good games, and I still dominate my mates when we play objectives.
Personally I think it has to be Militarum Tempestus followed by nids.....
CSM I would not know, never played against them enough (well by a player who knows 40k properly, he's just beginning).
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 Baldeagle91 wrote:I don't really think the guard dex is bottom tier... it's outdated sure, but you can have good games, and I still dominate my mates when we play objectives.
Personally I think it has to be Militarum Tempestus followed by nids.....
CSM I would not know, never played against them enough (well by a player who knows 40k properly, he's just beginning).
Once he gets better, you'll end up regretting your vote for Scions.
95560
Post by: Baldeagle91
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Baldeagle91 wrote:I don't really think the guard dex is bottom tier... it's outdated sure, but you can have good games, and I still dominate my mates when we play objectives.
Personally I think it has to be Militarum Tempestus followed by nids.....
CSM I would not know, never played against them enough (well by a player who knows 40k properly, he's just beginning).
Once he gets better, you'll end up regretting your vote for Scions.
Meh his helldrakes always cause issues, but I usually just ignore them. I haven't really faced anything that seems broken... but then again he's normally supported by my mates chaos demons who are like troll machines.... though I do kill plenty.
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
SoB can put a lot of hurt on stuff when done right. I've yet to lose to the mate's Tau for example - he just can't kill enough PA bodies to prevent his scoring troops from being wiped out.
CSM on the other hand could use some love. My mate's CSM never do well unless he takes stuff that isn't Chaos Marines.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
85656
Post by: Oberron
 Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).
viable? yes. reliable? no.
35714
Post by: gwarsh41
Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
I always figured it was because some people really just want an all woman force. I am sure there are some who like the fluff, but I doubt there are any who think the tabletop representation is fun.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Oberron wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).
viable? yes. reliable? no.
They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Ashiraya wrote:Oberron wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).
viable? yes. reliable? no.
They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.
They're bad in the same way Tyranids are. You just spam a few units and hope for the best.
91895
Post by: Ghazkuul
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Oberron wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).
viable? yes. reliable? no.
They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.
They're bad in the same way Tyranids are. You just spam a few units and hope for the best.
I would never count out Sisters, especially if your a horde army player you HATE sisters. If you love your AV10-13 vehicles you hate Sisters to, 2 exorcists in the back with some bubble wrap will FETH up your day.
48746
Post by: Billagio
Ive been out of it for a while. Why are CSM so bad now? I last remember them being half decent with flying DPs and all the psychic shenanigans they can do.
85656
Post by: Oberron
Ashiraya wrote:Oberron wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.
And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).
viable? yes. reliable? no.
They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.
Wasn't saying they are the worst but they have a lot more down sides then upsides, but that is mostly because of a highly outdated codex and changing of the times. They have decent tactics and tricks like exo spam and melta bumrushing but not a lot of substance. I see sisters could be made into a glass hammer/gamble army.
91771
Post by: FireSkullz2
Sisters or CSM
98469
Post by: Arkaine
CSM, sadly. Everything is expensive and doesn't really synergize well. We've had the same seven guns since the beginning.
70567
Post by: deviantduck
CSM is definitely the worst of the 'core' codecies.
I'm assuming the people who think SoB are the worst rarely play against them.
51383
Post by: Experiment 626
 deviantduck wrote:CSM is definitely the worst of the 'core' codecies.
I'm assuming the people who think SoB are the worst rarely play against them.
The only thing that's actively making Sisters 'worse' in a general sense than Chaos Marines is their sheer monetary cost, combined with the inability to get your hands on most of the models through GW themselves.
On the table though, Sisters laugh at any pure CSM list.
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
I don't know why people think Sisters are good. I play as them, and my friend who runs the Airborne Assault formation MT mono-codex list crushes me.
And MT have some votes here for worst codex!
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know why people think Sisters are good. I play as them, and my friend who runs the Airborne Assault formation MT mono-codex list crushes me.
And MT have some votes here for worst codex!
They both do the Special weapon spam in different ways. I'd put my vote for MT being stronger though because they naturally have aircraft and Deep Strike (with Teleport Homers on their Tauroxs to boot).
69226
Post by: Selym
8 votes for Eldar. Not sure if joking...
79099
Post by: Draco
CSM if we forget mini codexes like Militarum Tempestus.
69226
Post by: Selym
 Draco wrote:CSM if we forget mini codexes like Militarum Tempestus.
At least MT have a theme that works, even if it is a one-trick-pony. CSM doesn't even have that.
88026
Post by: casvalremdeikun
Well, they are not wrong, if you take the viewpoint of Eldar being the worst codex for building a pure list because it is so egregiously overpowered that it sucks to even play with.
97944
Post by: Ubl1k
CSM it makes me sad to say but my khorne flake zerkers and nurgle marines are gathering dust hard. maybe oneday when im big they will rise and become the moderately decent force they deserve to be.
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know why people think Sisters are good. I play as them, and my friend who runs the Airborne Assault formation MT mono-codex list crushes me.
And MT have some votes here for worst codex!
They both do the Special weapon spam in different ways. I'd put my vote for MT being stronger though because they naturally have aircraft and Deep Strike (with Teleport Homers on their Tauroxs to boot).
The biggest problem wasn't the MT. It was the Valkyries. The Sororitas have exactly 0 AA options, which is why I said they are dead last - having 0 air defense is as crippling in the modern meta as having 0 things that can kill AV14 or 0 things that can fight in close combat.
11860
Post by: Martel732
I never bring air defense because stormravens suck. I ignore enemy air power.
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
You ignore the entire enemy army in some cases?
What do you just read a newspaper after setting up your models?
69226
Post by: Selym
Unit1126PLL wrote:You ignore the entire enemy army in some cases?
What do you just read a newspaper after setting up your models?
That's what I'd do. I have one Vendetta, which cannot be transported due to being an awkward donkey-cave to fit in a box, and due to all IG armies requiring a minimum of 2 large boxes to transport. And I have one ADL, because I wanted cover on planet Bowling Ball.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Unit1126PLL wrote:You ignore the entire enemy army in some cases?
What do you just read a newspaper after setting up your models?
Pretty much, yes. Its not really any worse than playing vs eldar or necrons or tau.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:You ignore the entire enemy army in some cases?
What do you just read a newspaper after setting up your models?
Pretty much, yes. Its not really any worse than playing vs eldar or necrons or tau.
Be easier not to set up at all truth be told.
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Post by: KhorneontheCobb
CSM is so bad.
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Post by: Jaxler
Storm troopers anyone?
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
To be fair most flyers can be ignored successfully. There are only a few cases where this isn't the case, like a full flying necron bakery, some guy spamming flyrants or an elysian list.
People saying SoB must be mad or inexperienced. 25 points for fearless on any squad including allies? Cover ignoring scouting meltaguns? They only have a few units so they may seem like a one trick pony, but what they have is solid enough. Certainly beats out tempestus and harlequins as a stand alone force imo.
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Post by: master of ordinance
Sisters of Battle good? What, have they had a brand spanking new codex since I last checked only days ago?
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Post by: Selym
master of ordinance wrote:Sisters of Battle good? What, have they had a brand spanking new codex since I last checked only days ago?
Yea, it was in the update that made CSM competent again. They got a starter set containing plastic SoB vs just-out-of-the-warp HH style CSM. Came with FAQ's for all books thus far, too.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Well, out of five players in my meta, if I tell them I am playing sisters, I get:
1) Elysian
2) MT in Valkyries formation
3) Necron Bakery
4) Flying Circus daemons
5) three Heldrakes with ID AP3 flamers.
They know I have no AA and they relentlessly exploit that weakness.
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Post by: deviantduck
master of ordinance wrote:Sisters of Battle good? What, have they had a brand spanking new codex since I last checked only days ago?
Below are a couple charts that make your opinion seem silly.
I keep looking for the SoB to be toward the bottom of the list in win %, but I don't see them. But, then again, these are from very competitive tournaments, so.. wait... that doesn't help your argument either.
LVO 2015 (old eldar and old necrons)
NOVA 2015
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
deviantduck wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Sisters of Battle good? What, have they had a brand spanking new codex since I last checked only days ago?
Below are a couple charts that make your opinion seem silly.
I keep looking for the SoB to be toward the bottom of the list in win %, but I don't see them. But, then again, these are from very competitive tournaments, so.. wait... that doesn't help your argument either.
LVO 2015 (old eldar and old necrons)
NOVA 2015
Both of those tournaments have many houserules.
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Post by: Lobokai
Unit1126PLL wrote: deviantduck wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Sisters of Battle good? What, have they had a brand spanking new codex since I last checked only days ago?
Below are a couple charts that make your opinion seem silly.
I keep looking for the SoB to be toward the bottom of the list in win %, but I don't see them. But, then again, these are from very competitive tournaments, so.. wait... that doesn't help your argument either.
LVO 2015 (old eldar and old necrons)
NOVA 2015
Both of those tournaments have many houserules.
Unless you're playing triple wraithknight vs unbound, so do you
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Post by: kryczek
As long as nurgle is a thing C:CSM will never be the worst. Yeah the whole codex ain't great, and I know as I had a tzeentch army, but plague marine's/unit's make up for a lot. For me it's now between orks and BA for the worst stand alone dex with DE not far ahead.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Lobukia wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote: deviantduck wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Sisters of Battle good? What, have they had a brand spanking new codex since I last checked only days ago?
Below are a couple charts that make your opinion seem silly.
I keep looking for the SoB to be toward the bottom of the list in win %, but I don't see them. But, then again, these are from very competitive tournaments, so.. wait... that doesn't help your argument either.
LVO 2015 (old eldar and old necrons)
NOVA 2015
Both of those tournaments have many houserules.
Unless you're playing triple wraithknight vs unbound, so do you
Yes... what is your point?
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Post by: Selym
His point is "SoB must be OP, they can spam MELTA!!"
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
 Selym wrote:His point is " SoB must be OP, they can spam MELTA!!"
Seriously? Both the previous poster and I simply stated that SoB have viable tactics that remain relevant in today's meta, and that their win percentage in tournament settings is not as low as one might expect from an army that some people consider bottom tier.
Nowhere did we use the words " OP" or "overpowered". Obviously SoB is not as competitive as a top tier list, but it certainly isn't bottom.
Stop straw man'ing and actually address what we are saying if you want to comment.
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Post by: Selym
Alrighty then, do either of those tournaments allow allies?
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