Yea I'm not going to be that guy to call it straight up lies/wishlisting, but I'm going to call it... highly optimistic
It's not that optimistic.
I mean, you might not get ALL of the variants in there but it's not that unbelievable given that Tesseract Vaults, Obelisks, Stormsurges, Stompas, and Wraithknights are all present in codices now.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Why? The Stompa became Orks LOW.
The Khorne Mower became KDK LOW
Plastic super heavies become the LOW for them
Yes but we're the Guard son. We don't get nice things. I once showed up to a big game day at my FLGS and people gave me weird looks when I said "yeah the Deathstrike isn't Strength D it's strength 10." The general response was, "how is that seriously not strength D when everyone else gets D in their codex somehow?" My reply was always "IG don't get nice things. Ever."
If you have low expectations to begin with, you wont be BTFO when the truth turns out to be terrible. My realistic hopes for this codex are a decurion with some kind of recycling mechanic for Platoons or conscripts, and some kind of mechanic that buffs orders or leadership. That's about it. I don't see point costs reductions, unit buffs, or anything of the sort being a realistic expectation for our faction.
Remember those little quotes from Dawn of War? "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Keep that in mind Guardsman, especially when it comes to releases for us.
ImAGeek wrote: It's almost a given that Baneblades will be LoW in the codex.
I recall reading that last year when the current codex was a rumor.
It would be nice if the Baneblade was included, but I'll never put it past GW to go against expectations either.
When the current codex was a rumour there hadn't been a whole load of codexes released first all with LoWs in the codexes...this time every full codex released previously has had LoWs. And the Baneblade is the obvious one. It's basically a given.
ultimentra wrote: If you have low expectations to begin with, you wont be BTFO when the truth turns out to be terrible. My realistic hopes for this codex are a decurion with some kind of recycling mechanic for Platoons or conscripts, and some kind of mechanic that buffs orders or leadership.
The linked article wrote:Look for an “decurion” heavily featuring Astra Militarum Armored Vehicles.
I.e. even worse than your most pessimistic hope.
Regarding Baneblades, I fully expect a few to make it into the Codex. I also expect them to be terrible. As you said, "IG don't get nice things. Ever."
The oldest kits that they are still selling are the Catachans, so I'm hoping that they got a resculpt at some point and they're just now letting us have it. Otherwise, the Bassie is the next oldest kit.
Maybe a new plastic regiment, or possibly a Cadian resculpt, which I heavily doubt. Plastic rough riders with cyber-steeds would be rad too.
Here's to hoping there's another cheap armored company box so I can replace the 10 I sold off the last time I stopped playing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Why? The Stompa became Orks LOW.
The Khorne Mower became KDK LOW
Plastic super heavies become the LOW for them
Yes but we're the Guard son. We don't get nice things. I once showed up to a big game day at my FLGS and people gave me weird looks when I said "yeah the Deathstrike isn't Strength D it's strength 10." The general response was, "how is that seriously not strength D when everyone else gets D in their codex somehow?" My reply was always "IG don't get nice things. Ever."
If you have low expectations to begin with, you wont be BTFO when the truth turns out to be terrible. My realistic hopes for this codex are a decurion with some kind of recycling mechanic for Platoons or conscripts, and some kind of mechanic that buffs orders or leadership. That's about it. I don't see point costs reductions, unit buffs, or anything of the sort being a realistic expectation for our faction.
Remember those little quotes from Dawn of War? "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Keep that in mind Guardsman, especially when it comes to releases for us.
Now say it was like an 18 inch blast, yeah, S10 is fine...
*A new special character will be named a LoW. He will be a platoon commander with WS5 and a master-crafted laspistol. He'll have a $40 clamp pack.
*All current named characters will be removed since they do not have plastic models.
*Leman Russ' will still be Heavy vehicles and they still won't fix the Ordnance rules.
*Vendettas will see another price bump.
*Baneblades rbecome Apoc only (again) because they are deemed by the studio as OP.
*Ratlings get a plastic kit. They're still terrible in the rules.
Larry Vela, natfka, and some random homeless guy I talked to all confirm these changes.
I'm not buying anything new if the Lumbering Behemoth isn't fixed. The standard LRBT could be such an amazing all-purpose tank, if it weren't for that bloody ordinance. At least change the ordinance to primary weapon instead, they did it with Necrons so that the Doomsday Ark could still fire its other guns, so I can't imagine a reason as to why the IG shouldn't have it either.
Why do all ops posting Bols 'rumors' never quote the actual content so we have to go to these pages to read it? So people get paid now for posting links here? How do I get hired too?
Seriously this is happening for weeks now...
"Look here!? www.belloflo..." It's like spam bots.
At least put some information into the first post...
I like rough riders, they just need an update. You look at historic cavalry and even when they were becoming less relevant they were elite units. Their update, they need to be kinda what vanguard are to assault marines. I just remember some of the small artwork for different regiments from the 4th ed codex... One RR regiment had Lizard/beast mounts pictured another obviously wearing something more like carapace armor with a shield. An RR update needs to be all of that.
streetsamurai wrote: Guards are in serious need of either getting a reseculpt of their basic troopers, or getting a new one made.
The Cadian and Catachan are really starting to show their age, and they are really boring sculpt.
It also doesn't help that they're missing half of their special weapons options, forcing many to resort to use up bits from the plastic command squad box or buy metal special weapon blisters. They could also pack a hefty amount of extra bits into those sparse looking sprues.
We already know all plastic Baneblade variants will be in the Cadia army list in Mont'Ka - info from Mr.Panda. Why would they not be in the next Astra Militarum Codex then?
the_Armyman wrote: *A new special character will be named a LoW. He will be a platoon commander with WS5 and a master-crafted laspistol. He'll have a $40 clamp pack.
*All current named characters will be removed since they do not have plastic models.
*Leman Russ' will still be Heavy vehicles and they still won't fix the Ordnance rules.
*Vendettas will see another price bump.
*Baneblades rbecome Apoc only (again) because they are deemed by the studio as OP.
*Ratlings get a plastic kit. They're still terrible in the rules.
Larry Vela, natfka, and some random homeless guy I talked to all confirm these changes.
Bro you forgot about our new Command Benefit for taking our decurion formation-
Incompetence of the Imperium:
All Infantry Platoons must pass a leadership check in order to- move as normal, shoot, assault, receive orders, fail orders, take leadership checks. If this leadership check is failed, the unit is pinned.
All Plasma guns taken in the platoons as special weapons Get Hot on the roll of a 1, or 2.
If a friendly infantry unit falls back within 12'' of a Commissar, the Commissar and his unit must immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack against this unit. Your opponent rolls all dice for this attack.
Don't forget about the fluffy requirements!
1-2 Company Command Squad
2-3 Commissars
2-5 Infantry Platoons
1-3 Scout Sentinel Squadrons
1-3 Ratlings, Scions, or Ogryns
1-3 Basilisk or Leman Russ Battle Tank
I was discussing this "leak" this morning, and then this crops up... I think maybe BoLs scraped this from a Facebook post on a 40k group, and cleaned up the grammar. It's word for word the same as a user post there.
Yes, they do that sometimes. Happened to one of my posts as well.
Anyway, next Astra Militarum rules release is on Nov 28. The Cadia army list in Mont'Ka. It comes with several formations, a multiformation detachment ('Decurion'), Cadian tactical objectives and orders, datasheets for all 9 plastic baneblade variants, Warlord traits and their own relics. Preorder is Nov 21
Well, whenever the next dex drops lets just hope that Mont'ka will be enough to tie us over until then. And if there really is going to be datasheets in Mont'ka for IG superheavies I don't see why they wouldn't just copy paste them to the dex as they would already be done.
You have to take my word for now or use a gogle translation for the the last sentences on the page. Mont'Ka does come with nine AM superheavy datasheets (unit rules) and Banebade and Shadowsword are mentioned specifically.
ImAGeek wrote: It's almost a given that Baneblades will be LoW in the codex.
I recall reading that last year when the current codex was a rumor.
It would be nice if the Baneblade was included, but I'll never put it past GW to go against expectations either.
When the current codex was a rumour there hadn't been a whole load of codexes released first all with LoWs in the codexes...this time every full codex released previously has had LoWs. And the Baneblade is the obvious one. It's basically a given.
Totes, and I hope it is in there.
But GW doing the obvious thing doesn't always pan out. And pessimism is fun.
Nah, I believe you its right there in the print and luckily I can read it from living in Germany for a few years. I'm just praying to the Emperor that they're something that can match the other GC and SH.
Yea I'm not going to be that guy to call it straight up lies/wishlisting, but I'm going to call it... highly optimistic
Of course it will have Baneblades in the codex. GW is hellbent on turning a skirmish game into Epic with 28mm models. Plus, if the rules are over the top, the model will sell. GW marketing FTW....
I predict AV 15 with ten hull points, melta immunity and haywire results -1, rending shred twinlinked bolters, armorbane lascannons, a "heavy demolisher cannon" that can fire twice, and the main cannon becoming D for.... 250pts
But in all seriousness, I'm super eager to see if there are any changes besides point cost as I love the model but even in Apoc battles I'm better off with other choices. . With the datasheets the formation coming in WZD:Mont'ka I think we will get a good feeling of what to expect from the dex, hopefully it's all warm and fuzzys. Speaking of which I need to get my FLGS owner to set me aside a Mont'ka book.
All Imperium armies have a ridicolous amount of superheavies they can legally include for any game.
Just the "baneblade box" and "Imperial knight box" offer far more options than chaos or any xenos might include (and thats available in stores, plastic.)
Who cares if the baneblade is in the stupid book?
Fayric wrote: All Imperium armies have a ridicolous amount of superheavies they can legally include for any game.
Just the "baneblade box" and "Imperial knight box" offer far more options than chaos or any xenos might include (and thats available in stores, plastic.)
Who cares if the baneblade is in the stupid book?
What people are hoping for are points cost changes, because right now the bang for buck just is not there for any of the baneblade variants with exception to *maybe* the Hellhammer which is banned in all formats.
New kits are interesting, certainly the Cadians are quite long in the tooth and were nver all that great to begin with.
With all the new plastic infantry out there GW really has to up their game, offering all the special weapons, varient heads etc.
Ideally I'd like to see new Cadians, a conscript box (maybe 1 part bodies with variant heads, allowing 20 in a box) and a vet box.
But I'm not raising my hopes. After the plastic Storm Troopers were such a disappointment (only 1 of each special? no gun options?) I'm not hopeful at all.
More likely recut of Cadians with Special Weapons and that's it.
Recycling conscripts with their own troop choice would be great though.
Cadians are ok as they are, imo.
Baneblades - why would we want these in codex? Unless they are getting tweaked...
Rough Riders - would be cool.
A legit veterans kit - unless they can make them look better than those we can kitbash atm. More special weapons per pack are always welcome, though.
If the Baneblade is a standard item on GW's shelves. it needs to be in the codex.
I know that fortifications aren't, and have a book of their own. But, this is an iconic tank, and tanks are what a lot of people play IG for.
In other words the Codex will remain as it is but new formations will buff the existing Codex.
So new Codex with formations in, or buy the new campaign supplement and get them in there.
I also predict a points drop for Baneblades and the ability to take them in squadrons in the same way you can with the Stormsurge.
I can't honestly think of any kits that need an update although wishlisting would be a new recut Cadian sprue that includes a veterans option just like Fire wrriors got with Breachers.
I like rough riders, they just need an update. You look at historic cavalry and even when they were becoming less relevant they were elite units. Their update, they need to be kinda what vanguard are to assault marines. I just remember some of the small artwork for different regiments from the 4th ed codex... One RR regiment had Lizard/beast mounts pictured another obviously wearing something more like carapace armor with a shield. An RR update needs to be all of that.
When do you think that update will come? They were terrible in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th edition. GW has shown no real ability to "fix" them or give them an "update. We're often way too optimistic about the reality of the situation in regards to bad units. Best option is to get rid of them since GW can't be bothered to make useful units.
I am confused by all the IG negativity. How can you keep saying that GW never gives you “nice things”? You get tons of plastic kits, hardcover books that are translated in your language even if it is not English, …
You waht now? The last thing AM got something new was...1.5 years ago? And 2 of 3 of those kits are just bad and noone uses them. Well, maybe the fluffiest of the fluffy.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I am confused by all the IG negativity. How can you keep saying that GW never gives you “nice things”? You get tons of plastic kits, hardcover books that are translated in your language even if it is not English, …
Are you seriously saying that "translated books" is something GW is gracing us with? Pretty sure that's simply a reality given the entire world doesn't speak English. Also, hardback books aren't a benefit.. they were forced on us and raised prices on the books.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I am confused by all the IG negativity. How can you keep saying that GW never gives you “nice things”? You get tons of plastic kits, hardcover books that are translated in your language even if it is not English, …
Because IG are supposed to represent the people of the Imperium, the very people they fight to protect. A massive, versitile force.
And right now they are out-charactered by their own tanks, and the basic troop kits are old enough to start learning to drive soon.
But yes being able to bludgeon someone with my rulebook is a benefit when my army is losing.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I am confused by all the IG negativity. How can you keep saying that GW never gives you “nice things”? You get tons of plastic kits, hardcover books that are translated in your language even if it is not English, …
Because IG are supposed to represent the people of the Imperium, the very people they fight to protect. A massive, versitile force.
And right now they are out-charactered by their own tanks, and the basic troop kits are old enough to start learning to drive soon.
But yes being able to bludgeon someone with my rulebook is a benefit when my army is losing.
Admittedly, the two basic Guard infantry kits are about the only current kits that are even worse off than the basic Chaos Marine kit. Only the Berserker kit is older, and like the Guard kits, is missing almost all of it's basic options!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I am confused by all the IG negativity. How can you keep saying that GW never gives you “nice things”? You get tons of plastic kits, hardcover books that are translated in your language even if it is not English, …
Are you seriously saying that "translated books" is something GW is gracing us with? Pretty sure that's simply a reality given the entire world doesn't speak English. Also, hardback books aren't a benefit.. they were forced on us and raised prices on the books.
Hybrid plays SoB. Their codex is only in English and isn't even a proper, physical book!
CragHack wrote: You waht now? The last thing AM got something new was...1.5 years ago? And 2 of 3 of those kits are just bad and noone uses them. Well, maybe the fluffiest of the fluffy.
That's the only time AM got anything.
What the IG need is a return of the way to run different regiments, for the First and Only would love to come back to the service of the Emperor.
Now seriously, I hope the Guard shines again. You IG players have been in the shadow for far too long.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I'd like to see them take some cues from how Victoria Lamb put their infantry together, and give some multipart customisable kits.
Yes, a thousand times. Modular, customizable infantry has been in my wishlist for decades now. That, and a redesigned Leman Russ, and I'll probably be getting some guardsmen to go with my AdmMech and Dark Angels. I doubt the former will happen, though, as current GW releases put an emphasis on fine detail over poseability and customization, probably to ward off third-party bit makers. But hey, a man can dream...
What people are hoping for are points cost changes, because right now the bang for buck just is not there for any of the baneblade variants with exception to *maybe* the Hellhammer which is banned in all formats.
Banned? Why is the Hellhammer banned in all formats? It's the coolest of the variants! :/
In other words the Codex will remain as it is but new formations will buff the existing Codex.
So new Codex with formations in, or buy the new campaign supplement and get them in there.
I also predict a points drop for Baneblades and the ability to take them in squadrons in the same way you can with the Stormsurge.
I can't honestly think of any kits that need an update although wishlisting would be a new recut Cadian sprue that includes a veterans option just like Fire wrriors got with Breachers.
CragHack wrote: You waht now? The last thing AM got something new was...1.5 years ago?
Well, it seems to me that not so long ago, only marines had the luck to have such a short time to wait between codecies as one and a half year. I mean, I remember Dark Eldars' 12 years gap. Have I become so out of touch that now 18 months seems like an eternity?
Kirasu wrote: Are you seriously saying that "translated books" is something GW is gracing us with? Pretty sure that's simply a reality given the entire world doesn't speak English. Also, hardback books aren't a benefit.. they were forced on us and raised prices on the books.
Be careful what you wish for. Be very, very careful. You get to choose between hardback and softback physical books, in your own language, do you? Well, that sure is better than being limited to untranslated digital-only books.
Experiment 626 wrote: Admittedly, the two basic Guard infantry kits are about the only current kits that are even worse off than the basic Chaos Marine kit. Only the Berserker kit is older, and like the Guard kits, is missing almost all of it's basic options!
What are you talking about? I am pretty sure I can name a whole lot of older models.
I am not sure about the rules, I do not really know them, but in term of releases and models, Imperial Guard seems on par with Orks, or Chaos. Kind of average. Do not get me wrong, I think new kits for the basic infantry would be nice, and stuff to allow both in rules and models to represent better the HUGE diversity of the Imperial Guard, which puts the astartes's diversity to shame, would be great. But reading that thread, one would get the impression that IG are extremely badly treated by GW, which just does not seem to be the case.
I am not sure about the rules, I do not really know them, but in term of releases and models, Imperial Guard seems on par with Orks, or Chaos. Kind of average. Do not get me wrong, I think new kits for the basic infantry would be nice, and stuff to allow both in rules and models to represent better the HUGE diversity of the Imperial Guard, which puts the astartes's diversity to shame, would be great. But reading that thread, one would get the impression that IG are extremely badly treated by GW, which just does not seem to be the case.
It would be extremely, awesome if we got plastic boxes for each of the missing IG regiments. Imagine plastics for Valhalan ice warriors or vostroyan firstborn. Now that would be a codex release.
Including heavy, command and normal infantry.
Would be better than, Here is a £30+ book with everything you already/know/have etc + some super heavies you already have.
The rumour does promise a more full bodied update than the tau (!!) and that aging kits are to be redone. Does this mean the other IG regiments are to get the plastic treatment. I hope so.
It would be nice if they bring back the unique traits of the different regiments. I stopped playing IG half way through 5th and haven't played them at all since then as they are boring and have no identity other than a bunch of guys with guns..and tanks. Boring. I liked it better when each regiment had their own little quirks and special rules. It made me more interested in the army. I have 25,000pts sitting in battle foam bags and haven't seen the light of day since 2011.
I am not sure about the rules, I do not really know them, but in term of releases and models, Imperial Guard seems on par with Orks, or Chaos. Kind of average. Do not get me wrong, I think new kits for the basic infantry would be nice, and stuff to allow both in rules and models to represent better the HUGE diversity of the Imperial Guard, which puts the astartes's diversity to shame, would be great. But reading that thread, one would get the impression that IG are extremely badly treated by GW, which just does not seem to be the case.
It would be extremely, awesome if we got plastic boxes for each of the missing IG regiments. Imagine plastics for Valhalan ice warriors or vostroyan firstborn. Now that would be a codex release.
Including heavy, command and normal infantry.
Considering "heavy" infantry are no longer a thing, aside from Veterans with the Grenadier option?
Yeah. Not happening. We're not getting new plastic Regiments.
Would be better than, Here is a £30+ book with everything you already/know/have etc + some super heavies you already have.
Do you really want them to add things for the sake of adding them?
The rumour does promise a more full bodied update than the tau (!!) and that aging kits are to be redone. Does this mean the other IG regiments are to get the plastic treatment. I hope so.
The rumor is also that:
A rumor.
A "full bodied update than the Tau" could mean anything from statlines and rules being adjusted(which wasn't done with Tau but is loooooooooong overdue for Guard) to an overhaul of everything and anything.
I feel like IG, more than any other army, would benefit from redone older models as opposed to new toys. I'd rather see new kits and better rules for diverse regiments and the like than some new special units coming out of the blue. I love the Taurox and Stormtroopers that came out a while ago, but that kind of became its own army for me and my base IG army barely changed at all from 5th to 7th.
It would benefit a lot from more diversity in army building as well. Most diverse fighting force in the universe, almost each and every regiment uses the same infantry company structure. Right now nothing sets Cadians apart from Catachans aside from one being bobbleheads, the other being masses of muscle.
Considering GWs flirting with the fan base/nostalgics lately, I would not be surprised to see a return of some
classic regiment like Mordian Iron Guard or Vostroyan first born.
Particulary Vostroya would fit GWs over the top detailed estethics of late, if models vere actually considered.
I am not sure about the rules, I do not really know them, but in term of releases and models, Imperial Guard seems on par with Orks, or Chaos. Kind of average. Do not get me wrong, I think new kits for the basic infantry would be nice, and stuff to allow both in rules and models to represent better the HUGE diversity of the Imperial Guard, which puts the astartes's diversity to shame, would be great. But reading that thread, one would get the impression that IG are extremely badly treated by GW, which just does not seem to be the case.
It would be extremely, awesome if we got plastic boxes for each of the missing IG regiments. Imagine plastics for Valhalan ice warriors or vostroyan firstborn. Now that would be a codex release.
Including heavy, command and normal infantry.
Considering "heavy" infantry are no longer a thing, aside from Veterans with the Grenadier option?
Yeah. Not happening. We're not getting new plastic Regiments.
Why not, pleases the player - greater variety and expand the player base that want to play gaurd. Win-win models for us and money for GW simple really.
Fayric wrote: Considering GWs flirting with the fan base/nostalgics lately, I would not be surprised to see a return of some
classic regiment like Mordian Iron Guard or Vostroyan first born.
Particulary Vostroya would fit GWs over the top detailed estethics of late, if models vere actually considered.
They'd have to do entirely new heavy weapons teams, entirely new tank crew models, new Sentinel crew models, etc.
I'd be shocked if they released new plastic regiments. It's far more likely that they'll create a new tank kit that they can sell to new AND existing players.
Fayric wrote: Considering GWs flirting with the fan base/nostalgics lately, I would not be surprised to see a return of some
classic regiment like Mordian Iron Guard or Vostroyan first born.
Particulary Vostroya would fit GWs over the top detailed estethics of late, if models vere actually considered.
They'd have to do entirely new heavy weapons teams, entirely new tank crew models, new Sentinel crew models, etc.
The could do it similar to the DE Wracks box (came with options to build a Wrack venom pilot) and have a kit with 10 bases that has 10-12 torsos, 10-15 heads, 9 arm pairs designed to hold guns, 9 lasguns, special weapons, 1-3 sets of pistol/cc weapon arms, some power weapons and a power fist, 2 sets of arms designed for use with heavy weapons, a vox, a medpack and a standard, has 2-4 spare kneeling legs, 1 sentinel pilot and 1 tank commander body (even if they were just the legs).
I mean, they'll never do it in a million years, but it would mean that they wouldn't have to redo existing vehicle kits nor have to make new heavy weapons. Players would have to buy the basic infantry kit and a heavy weapon team box, with the leftover parts from the infantry box allowing them to make a platoon/company command squad and upgrade a sentinel/tank to have a commander.
CaptKaruthors wrote: It would be nice if they bring back the unique traits of the different regiments. I stopped playing IG half way through 5th and haven't played them at all since then as they are boring and have no identity other than a bunch of guys with guns..and tanks. Boring. I liked it better when each regiment had their own little quirks and special rules. It made me more interested in the army. I have 25,000pts sitting in battle foam bags and haven't seen the light of day since 2011.
I was so depressed by 7th giving about a 5th of a single page to any regiment that didn't begin with C.
Hell, it felt like some kind of bird spotting book, or a nod to people who already knew the fluff.
Coming in on that edition was grim.
gorgon wrote: I'd be shocked if they released new plastic regiments. It's far more likely that they'll create a new tank kit that they can sell to new AND existing players.
I doubt that their will be any new players if they don't do something with the range. What would be better sell a whole army to a new player (and gain a player to sell other stuff to) or sell a tank to existing players? I don't have the numbers but I reckon selling whole armies would work out better for GW.
The could do it similar to the DE Wracks box (came with options to build a Wrack venom pilot) and have a kit with 10 bases that has 10-12 torsos, 10-15 heads, 9 arm pairs designed to hold guns, 9 lasguns, special weapons, 1-3 sets of pistol/cc weapon arms, some power weapons and a power fist, 2 sets of arms designed for use with heavy weapons, a vox, a medpack and a standard, has 2-4 spare kneeling legs, 1 sentinel pilot and 1 tank commander body (even if they were just the legs).
I mean, they'll never do it in a million years, but it would mean that they wouldn't have to redo existing vehicle kits nor have to make new heavy weapons. Players would have to buy the basic infantry kit and a heavy weapon team box, with the leftover parts from the infantry box allowing them to make a platoon/company command squad and upgrade a sentinel/tank to have a commander.
Yeah this is what I had in mind. If they wanted to just do one kit per IG regiment then they could do just one kit. (and one heavy weapon kit of course)
I am 99% certain all factions will be ignored bar Cadians and maybe Catachans.
5th saw them reduced. 6th saw them removed almost entirely. 7th will see them gone for good.
I will be amazed if they have more than the two C's in there. I will be even more amazed if they add more fluff on the other factions than the meager 2 pages they have in the current one.
There is no way we are getting new Guardsmen for the other regiments. It's more likely the ones we barely have will be done away with I think.
I like the way Voystroyans and Scions give a sense of sci-fi fantasy empire to the Imperial Guard, in a way that Cadians, Catachans, and the 2nd ed. regiments independently didn't. Even if you're of the camp that think IG should just be modern military analogues Elysians do a better job of it. Even if it were just to bring them better to scale I'd love to see the Cadians redone. You compare our infantry to almost any other in the game and they are just too big. It bothers me to the point that I think their mal-scaling makes them incompatible.
With the exception of ratlings and rough riders, our army's model range is pretty much up to date. With Skitarii, SoB, and Space Marines there is something about their aesthetic that give you a sense that they are part of a larger galaxy. The IG feel out of place for being so mundane..
We will be lucky if the Cadians get a new kit, so I'll join the chorus that there is no way GW will revisit the old IG regiments and more is the pity.
It makes sense too, there are many alternate non-GWIG lines that have carved part of the IG niche for GW to risk an investment that probably will take a long time to pay itself.
So if the rumour is true and we are getting an new IG dex next year, rest assured that it will bring some flashy, big and really expensive vehicle of some kind that will be the must have for the 5 minutes, D strength flyers anyone?
gorgon wrote: I'd be shocked if they released new plastic regiments. It's far more likely that they'll create a new tank kit that they can sell to new AND existing players.
Which is funny, because I'd buy an entirely new army if they put out something as stupendous as plastic Vostroyans(as an example), or indeed almost any of the regiments done on the same level as the Skitarii infantry kits. No interest at all in buying some newshiny tank kit though, because I'd have to buy a ton of plastic Cadians to make my existing older Guard army viable for the new edition, and I wouldn't build and paint any more of those atrocities if the kits were free and you were paying me to do it.
This is the problem for GW; they don't do proper research into their market, so they have no idea if a newshiny kit or a refresh of the old plastic infantry would make them more money, they just make assumptions based on "common-sense innit guv" thinking.
Advance the timeline a few seconds and let Cadia fall to chaos (and get destroyed)
at a stroke all the old cadian armies are effectively invalidated (sure you can still play them as legacy units, there will still be plenty knocking about the imperium even without those stuck in warp storms, but still.....) & keep (most of) the rules similar
and release a new fancy AM/IG set of kits for one of the old specialist regiments, or something new (with plenty of dual kitting of course) which will give folk an excuse to buy everything again
RedFox wrote: Are you guys still speculating over a BoLS rumor or has anyone else with more credibility said anything new ?
Well, a little bird told me that there will be:
-Return of some of our characters and artillery, with new kits.
-A new rule to replicate lumbering behemoth: ordnance doesn't cause snapfire, and the turret can target independent of the hull/sponson weapons!
-Build your own regiment system!
-That sill space army name will be replaced with a proper name that signifies the MIGHT OF THE IMPERIUM.
-VenDettas
-Plastic RRs, with awesome rules.
-Banewolf will be torrent.
Spoiler:
By "a little bird told me" I mean I'm making it up to see if anyone falls for it, and questing to have a worse rumor tracking score than BoLS.
Edit: After squinting at the tiny print for a few minutes:
Formation: 1 CCS, 1 Infantry Platoon, 1 Scout Sentinel Squadron, 1 unit of MT Scions, 1 Valkyrie, 1 LR Squadron, 1 Baneblade
Restrictions: Infantry PLT must consist of 1 PCS and 2-5 squads. The CCS and all units in the Infantry PLT must be given a Chimera as a DT.
Advance and Hold: infantry units in the battlegroup have Objective Secured and Stubborn.
Close Range Fire Support: the Baneblade and LR Squadron have the twin-linked special rule as long as the targeted unit is within 12" of friendly models from the formation.
Rapid Response: Scions must/may begin game embarked on Valkyrie. Instead of making Reserve rolls... (can't read)... Deep Strike will not scatter within 12" of the Battlegroup's Scout Sentinel Squad. Tough to make out but it sounds like a turn-of-your-choosing and/or no-scatter mechanic for reserves and DS.
Again, this is just squinting at really blurry text, so I can't be held responsible for getting stuff completely wrong
gorgon wrote: I'd be shocked if they released new plastic regiments. It's far more likely that they'll create a new tank kit that they can sell to new AND existing players.
Which is funny, because I'd buy an entirely new army if they put out something as stupendous as plastic Vostroyans(as an example), or indeed almost any of the regiments done on the same level as the Skitarii infantry kits. No interest at all in buying some newshiny tank kit though, because I'd have to buy a ton of plastic Cadians to make my existing older Guard army viable for the new edition, and I wouldn't build and paint any more of those atrocities if the kits were free and you were paying me to do it.
This is the problem for GW; they don't do proper research into their market, so they have no idea if a newshiny kit or a refresh of the old plastic infantry would make them more money, they just make assumptions based on "common-sense innit guv" thinking.
This x 1000
As much as I love the new scion and Bullgryn, no way in hell will I build an IG army, with these boring (and rather ugly) troopers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: New Cadians? That'd require them to replace three different kits. Don't see it happening.
wouldn't that be 2 kits, since the command squad is a lot newer than the other 2 ? At least, that's the case for catachan.
Edit: After squinting at the tiny print for a few minutes:
Formation: 1 CCS, 1 Infantry Platoon, 1 Scout Sentinel Squadron, 1 unit of MT Scions, 1 Valkyrie, 1 LR Squadron, 1 Baneblade
Restrictions: Infantry PLT must consist of 1 PCS and 2-5 squads. The CCS and all units in the Infantry PLT must be given a Chimera as a DT.
Advance and Hold: infantry units in the battlegroup have Objective Secured and Stubborn.
Close Range Fire Support: the Baneblade and LR Squadron have the twin-linked special rule as long as the targeted unit is within 12" of friendly models from the formation.
Rapid Response: Scions must/may begin game embarked on Valkyrie. Instead of making Reserve rolls... (can't read)... Deep Strike will not scatter within 12" of the Battlegroup's Scout Sentinel Squad. Tough to make out but it sounds like a turn-of-your-choosing and/or no-scatter mechanic for reserves and DS.
Again, this is just squinting at really blurry text, so I can't be held responsible for getting stuff completely wrong
I'm seeing the same thing. I'm not really impressed, its definatly no Cohort Mechanicus or sky hammer.
Objective secured infantry is already something guard can take in spades, stubborn while nice is abit underwhelming as guard leadership isn't that good to begin with which is why we have things like commissars. I honest would have preferred if they had just made things twin-linked instead of "twin-linked if your on the enemy's front porch". While I get the idea behind it "forward scouts i.e., stormies and sentinels relay co-ordinates" considering the fragility of both unit its a one, MAYBE two trick pony unless you're just rolling up the board which isn't quite as easy as it once was even with AV 14, and you definitely don't want to so if MCs or anything CC related is around due to vehicles being hit in the rear in assault. Finally with the scions I'm abit happier with what it looks like they and the valk get, picking when you come on and not scattering is nothing to sneeze at.
Now while I was rather negative about the benefits (from what I can make out) its really just nice to see something at this point and honestly they're not bad just not up to what I've come to expect from these "Super awesome exclusive rules". Maybe our basic formations will mean we wont need a power formation? I guess its back to waiting
It should be of interest here, too, the free preview of the Mont'Ka Digital Enhanced Edition is available on the iStore now and comes with a huge Glossar.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Cadian Troopers.
Heavy Weapon Teams.
Command Squad.
The command squad is fine and doesn't need touching, ditto the Catachan one. They're only a few years old and pretty up to scratch with the newer stuff.
Swastakowey wrote: I am 99% certain all factions will be ignored bar Cadians and maybe Catachans.
5th saw them reduced. 6th saw them removed almost entirely. 7th will see them gone for good.
I will be amazed if they have more than the two C's in there. I will be even more amazed if they add more fluff on the other factions than the meager 2 pages they have in the current one.
There is no way we are getting new Guardsmen for the other regiments. It's more likely the ones we barely have will be done away with I think.
Sad but true - the current codex is horribly dull in terms of actually allowing Guard players to represent what is the most diverse fighting force in the Imperium - far more so than slightly different coloured Marines - even those who ride sleighs..............
The new kits are going to be rough riders as Cadians riding little bicycles with a little basket and a bow in the front, as well as a brand new basilisk command tank kit, which is the same as the old kit with a command sprue thrown in.
Oh, and a brand new plastic Sergeant Kell model, but no creed.
And Cata-what now? More like squata-what now.
But seriously, I'd start an armoured company if it becomes a thing in the new codex. Don't have to order that book since the pound is more than two to one Canadian right now...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Cadian Troopers.
Heavy Weapon Teams.
Command Squad.
The command squad is fine and doesn't need touching, ditto the Catachan one. They're only a few years old and pretty up to scratch with the newer stuff.
It only had 1 of each special weapon and no heavy weapon.
None of the IG kits are up to the standards of say Marine or Empire kits as far as including all options.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Cadian Troopers.
Heavy Weapon Teams.
Command Squad.
The command squad is fine and doesn't need touching, ditto the Catachan one. They're only a few years old and pretty up to scratch with the newer stuff.
It only had 1 of each special weapon and no heavy weapon.
None of the IG kits are up to the standards of say Marine or Empire kits as far as including all options.
I guess. Design wise though they're fine and I doubt GW will redo them to give more options, knowing them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Cadian Troopers.
Heavy Weapon Teams.
Command Squad.
The command squad is fine and doesn't need touching, ditto the Catachan one. They're only a few years old and pretty up to scratch with the newer stuff.
It only had 1 of each special weapon and no heavy weapon.
None of the IG kits are up to the standards of say Marine or Empire kits as far as including all options.
Space Marine Command Squad only comes with 1 plas/melta/flamer.
Tactical Squads only have the worst heavy weapon we have.
Bikes come with no special weapons...
Pretty much everyone comes with low options. It'd be nice if IG got a veteran kit with two of each special, like the Sternguard box.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Cadian Troopers.
Heavy Weapon Teams.
Command Squad.
The command squad is fine and doesn't need touching, ditto the Catachan one. They're only a few years old and pretty up to scratch with the newer stuff.
It only had 1 of each special weapon and no heavy weapon.
None of the IG kits are up to the standards of say Marine or Empire kits as far as including all options.
Space Marine Command Squad only comes with 1 plas/melta/flamer.
Tactical Squads only have the worst heavy weapon we have.
Bikes come with no special weapons...
I dunno, Missile Launchers aren't that bad in an infantry heavy Raven Guard force. I've been using an all ML Devastator Squad and it's been kinda interesting combined with the Scout bonus from the Pinion Battle Company.
As for the Command Squad and Bikes? Both of those are still older kits. I'm honestly surprised they still sell the Command Squad.
Pretty much everyone comes with low options. It'd be nice if IG got a veteran kit with two of each special, like the Sternguard box.
Calling it now, $50 Veteran Guardsman kit with shotguns, two of each special, a Heavy Flamer, and a Heavy Bolter.
RedFox wrote: Are you guys still speculating over a BoLS rumor or has anyone else with more credibility said anything new ?
Well, a little bird told me that there will be:
-Return of some of our characters and artillery, with new kits.
-A new rule to replicate lumbering behemoth: ordnance doesn't cause snapfire, and the turret can target independent of the hull/sponson weapons!
-Build your own regiment system!
-That sill space army name will be replaced with a proper name that signifies the MIGHT OF THE IMPERIUM.
-VenDettas
-Plastic RRs, with awesome rules.
-Banewolf will be torrent.
Spoiler:
By "a little bird told me" I mean I'm making it up to see if anyone falls for it, and questing to have a worse rumor tracking score than BoLS.
One rule makes multiple-turret combat a reality!!!! meowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww~
And does 'Build your own regiment system' means? Is it possible to make all-cavalry regiment in the same manner as the pre-WW1 style?
Thats right data cards Cadians. Not data card IG, or AM or anything like that but specifically Cadians. Does this mean Catachans will get data cards along with all of the other regiments? Or that Catachans and the others have been squatted once and for all and now it is codex Cadians!!!
Thats right data cards Cadians. Not data card IG, or AM or anything like that but specifically Cadians. Does this mean Catachans will get data cards along with all of the other regiments? Or that Catachans and the others have been squatted once and for all and now it is codex Cadians!!!
It means nothing. The cards are part of the Mont'ka supplement book, which is also including as far as we currently know, a grand total of 1 lonely IG formation.
I kind of like the hammerblow. Not bad, not broken. A nice IG sampler.
That close fire support is nice. I have many times killed a few of my own guys while trying to soften an enemy squad before charging it. I mean, they're only Guardsmen, but still best not to waste them if you don't have to.
If the Storm Troopers really do get a "DS when you want to" it would be very fitting them. No scatter makes sense too. Makes for a nice application of precision pew pew where you need it.
Banner of the Lost 113th. So much yes. Hold the line!
I find it lacking in infantry bodies for what I think it's a big chunk of points (sorry not very current on pts cost) .How are you going to secure objectives?
771$ not a small amount of cash, somebody with better knowledge about official prices can tell me if it offers a half decent discount?
As is pretty much always the case, the melee relics seem fairly useless. I'll agree that Kabe's Herald is the most obviously good relic, but Standard of the Lost 13th certainly has some utility as well.
ultimentra wrote: Yes but we're the Guard son. We don't get nice things.
That is why IG are getting Baneblade SQUADRONS in the Codex, but they will still be so grossly overcosted that you'd never field them when IKTs are available.
In addition, the rumored infantry platoon is 2-5 squads, plus command, much like the codex platoon. I wonder if the hellhammerbaneswordshadowkrump formation will allow the other platoon goodies, like SWS, HWS, and conscripts? So with that one platoon, you're looking at 3-13 scoring units of various usefulness.
I'll agree though that the GW webstore super bundle doesn't have a lot of securing bodies, but what IG player doesn't have more soon-to-be-corpses laying around?
This is all coming at an unfortunate time. Having loved IG for many years, getting back into the hobby three years back and finally putting the money into an IG force, these rumours start flying around. Not that I'm anywhere near ready to field them on the table top, but dropping £500+ into a new army over the past month is rather annoying. I was about to pick up a Baneblade and supporting rule books too…
I must admit, having built a number of Cadian vet squads (adding meltas was a pain) and checking out the Baneblade kits, they're all very dated. I'd welcome some sort of upgrades, although at the potential price hike I'm not too sure what would be the best option; £85 isn't so bad for a tank that can be effectively magnetised to perform as 8 tanks. Having them included in a codex as a LoW would be welcomed.
This is, actually, playable. At least that's what I think.
IMO, pros: -Possible MSU things. Just send those STUBBORN guardsmen riding in their chimeras to objectives, while possibly throwing a twin linked shot or two at anything that gets near them. Insert Valkyrie for linebreaker/objectives that are too far away.
Cons: -Costs a TON. I mean, the smallest possible variation goes for about 1k points. And this is just barebones, without any fancy upgrades, taking only 1 Russ. -Baneblade. Why Baneblade? I'd take TL Shadowsword over Baneblade any day, any time. Plus, it kinda says fk you to all those players who DON'T have a Baneblade.
Wishlisting how it could've been better: -No Valkyrie/Valkyrie is optional -No useless Sentinels/Useless Sntinels are optional -Chimeras are free (cough, marines with their free razorbacks, cough) -Baneblade is optional with the ability to take any other variation.
CragHack wrote: Plus, it kinda says fk you to all those players who DON'T have a Baneblade.
What did you expect from a 7th edition codex? You're going to have to buy models to complete formations no matter what. That's the whole point of GW's current approach to the rules.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Be careful what you wish for. Be very, very careful. You get to choose between hardback and softback physical books, in your own language, do you? Well, that sure is better than being limited to untranslated digital-only books.
Honestly speaking, with current naming conventions being what they are for translations (meaning: nope, we don't translate terms anymore, at least for the spanish edition) it's much easier to just stick with the untranslated version than to try to make any sense of the mess.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In theory, all of your IG will be playable under the new Codex. Some will be better, others worse, but still playable.
Being playable isn't really the issue, it's more that by the time I have everything built, painted and in game, there's new kits. Not that I have any problems continuing with buying new IG models if the range expands/develops, I'm just miffed about the unfortunate timing and the quick turn around time for new releases. Although I'm relatively new to IG, I don't have any major issues with the Codex. Fingers crossed that doesn't change much, if recent revamps are anything to go by.
I'd love an update, just as much as the next Guard player, but I know it won't be something that change the way the Guard currently play.
If anything, we'll get limited updates to existing kits (maybe an 'infantry platoon in a box' boxed set or something) but the codex itself will simply be brought in line with the rest of them. Probably a formation or two (one buffing all of the gakky units we all love, and another that is the only one worth taking because it makes Leman Russes amazing again and gives something silly like free Chimeras).
I'm not a pessimist, I just can't take another update like the last one - Guard aren't as bad as Tyranids, but we get kicked pretty hard in the teeth too.
Frankenberry wrote: I'd love an update, just as much as the next Guard player, but I know it won't be something that change the way the Guard currently play.
If anything, we'll get limited updates to existing kits (maybe an 'infantry platoon in a box' boxed set or something) but the codex itself will simply be brought in line with the rest of them. Probably a formation or two (one buffing all of the gakky units we all love, and another that is the only one worth taking because it makes Leman Russes amazing again and gives something silly like free Chimeras).
I'm not a pessimist, I just can't take another update like the last one - Guard aren't as bad as Tyranids, but we get kicked pretty hard in the teeth too.
The last IG... I mean, the first AM codex was so terrible I'm converting my Guardsmen to renegades. That's right: the codex was so bad it drove me to heresy.
The last IG... I mean, the first AM codex was so terrible I'm converting my Guardsmen to renegades. That's right: the codex was so bad it drove me to heresy.
The renegade lists are only really good at drowning your opponent in bodies, the ability to make actually good interesting lists with them is limited by the weird restrictions that forgeworld has built into the way different unit choices are unlocked.
According to the Mont'Kas descripiton on GW's website, we will be getting 8 Lords of War and 10 new formations. The 8 LoW are more likely the 8 Baneblade variants. And there is a good chance that with 10 formations, we will be getting the same formation treatment that the other codices have recieved. That is one master formation and then a large number of auxiliary formations.
That's more than a bit overkill. What is going to need 290-440870-1320 lasgun shots, especially ones that can re-roll To Hit rolls of a 1 if taken in the Guard-curion? Like holy crap.
EDIT: Actually I just realised you can choose which units to order and you don't have to order every unit. That isn't too shabby then.
Also:
Spoiler:
What in the world is going to be able to survive 3 Super heavies firing with massive blast weapons that's actually worth firing at with Super Heavy grade weapons? That 4D6 Morale test is cool and all, but I only see it coming up if some how you've already killed the enemy's key power units and you're now using them to clear chaff (like Ork boyz, Cultist, Termagants, other IG)
@JohnHwangDD: These are from the Mont'ka campaign. All the points are as they currently are in the codex. It's unknown whether the Baneblad variants are improved from the terrible Escalation rules, though.
To be fair, they list "emporers shield" infantry platoons AND infantry platoons as options in there. Could very well be a new type of platoon specific to cadian armies...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: To be fair, they list "emporers shield" infantry platoons AND infantry platoons as options in there. Could very well be a new type of platoon specific to cadian armies...
Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon is an Auxiliary choice, purchasable if you take a Core choice.
A Core choice is the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company; which is 3x Platoons and a Company Command Squad.
Honestly, I think there MUST be something we're missing here because otherwise this doesn't add up when compared to the actual "bundle" that GW put up(2x Heavy Weapons Squads, 2x Cadian Shock Troop Squads, 3 Sentinels, and a Platoon/Company Command Squad box). If HW Squads/Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads count as Infantry Squads now?
That makes this a hell of a lot less hinky.
Wow, these command benefits pale in comparison to Decurion, War Host, Gladius, Raven Guard's special thing, etc. 3 Orders at 24'' range, a third die to help pass the Ld test, and rerolling 1's on lasguns and hotshot lasguns? Really? That's it?
I was going to take a Company Command squad or Tank Commander anyways, good thing they didn't put in additional requirements.
Emperor's Spear-
Basically you can choose how many you bring in from the formation if you pass one of the reserve checks, except in more flowery wording, and you can sacrifice jink and take dangerous by passing over tall terrain to not scatter from grav chute insertion. Fluffy, seems like it might be cool for a themed paratrooper list, but IMO it's really situational. Not as good as rolling for the reserve roll starting on turn 1 which is what I would have preferred.
Super Heavy support-
Yea, because I'm really going to take 3 baneblades. Sure GW keep dreaming. Only useful if you want the engineseer buff. Man GW really wants to sell that model.
Psyker Division-
Inferior in every way to Librarian conclave, minor buffs and easy to kill. Yawn.
Ogyrn Formation-
Unless Ogryns and Bullgryns become super cheap in the new dex, this is expensive and rather useless. Fearless and additional HoW doesn't help the fact that both of these units suck ratling poo.
Emperor's fist armored company-
Man GW really wants to sell that enginseer model. The buff it provides is trivial, not only are enginseers easy to kill but the buff he provides really doesn't do very much. The largest threat to Leman Russ tanks isn't penetrating hit results, it's glance overload thanks to haywire, the D chart, and a multitude of other rules that circumvent AV14 not to mention close combat. The enginseer is a tax here.
BS 4 within 12 inches of the tank commander, good.
-1 leadership or plus 1 strength to tank shock/ram? Are you fething kidding me? On Leman Russ tanks? Seriously? Wait a second, you're telling me that the SM predator formation gets tank hunter or monster hunter, and we get this? Yea okay, no thanks. Why would anyone ever take this over the Steel Host? Preferred Enemy is way superior to all of the buffs in this formation combined. The tax unit may be more expensive by 30 points, but I'll get more use out of a hydra than I will an enginseer. Not taking this.
Artillery Company-
WOW GW REALLY WANTS TO SELL THAT ENGINSEER MODEL.
Okay, this one is actually good! We can now issue the good senior officer orders (like ignores cover) to our artillery units, including Hydras! You want to jink these autocannons? Too bad! Man, giving orders to artillery like Basilisks is really good, but I feel like I've seen this somewhere before... oh wait, we could already do this with FW artillery carriages...
Whatever, twin linked thanks to target sighted (with a decent 18'' range) is actually really good. I would actually buy basilisk models or even hydras for this.
Assault Company-
Extra CCS tax, Hellhound tax, three veteran squads which was always standard for me. Everyone has to take a chimera or taurox. Objective secured and preferred enemy against units within 6 of an objective. How did I know free chimeras was a pipe dream? Yawn. I might take this formation by itself in a small point game. NEXT.
Sentinel Company-
Hey armored sentinels finally have outflank! They might see some use now. Command sentinel giving a couple orders (mainly the move then run order) sounds decent. If someone likes sentinels they'll probably field this but honestly their still just sentinels, meaning mediocre weapons, hitting on 4s. Meh.
Infantry company-
Wow three platoons, that's a lot of guys firing a lot of rank fire all at one target. If you really have to kill something with your flashlights and were going to do it anyways I guess this is a nice buff. Otherwise this is completely situational. It's lasguns. Yes you'll probably kill the squad you fire at but then again you just fired three platoons at it, it probably would have died anyway. Yawn.
Emperors shield platoon-
That move through cover bonus isn't going to last long, sentinels are easy to kill. If your opponent knows which sentinel or squadron is giving them the buff, it will probably die. Fire and advance is a nice order especially for heavy weapons, but its really not that great of a buff.
So, that's it then? I have to say my pessimism was justified now that I see this. We got one, maybe two good formations out of this. The rest- objectively crap. All except the artillery formation pale in comparison to their Marine counterparts in terms of the buffs afforded them. Looks like GW really wants to sell their new techpriest model and some baneblade kits, guess we'll see just how badly they want to sell them when we see the baneblade stats and point costs.
I like how the Target Sighted (or whatever it is) rule for the Artillery Formation allows any friendly model with a voxcaster to spot, not just the smuck from the Command Squad.
Kanluwen wrote: Don't want to pay $75 for the new Enginseer?
Then buy the metal one for $11.50. He's still up on the US webstore.
I already have two of the metal ones. Making a new model a requirement/tax to take some of these formations is really gakky to new players or people who just don't want to deal with having to buy an enginseer.
Well, if this is all that Guard are indeed getting, (according to both Sad Panda & Lady Atia), then it's almost certain that Chaos & Tyranids are likewise going to get nerfed into extinction.
So, I am actually kind of happy with this IG release. It places an emphasis on mechanized play, which is how I was playing before and it seems like everything is pretty fluff-friendly. It isn't super OP or an auto-take, but it is a nice change of pace from the standard CAD way of building an army.
The formations are (predictably) model heavy but I like how they finally gave some of the other vehicles the ability to give orders to themselves. Nothing that seems to over the top, which must disappoint some of the people who want a more Eldar-esque kind of buff.
Grimskul wrote: The formations are (predictably) model heavy but I like how they finally gave some of the other vehicles the ability to give orders to themselves. Nothing that seems to over the top, which must disappoint some of the people who want a more Eldar-esque kind of buff.
I think you mean want a more "every faction release up until now" kind of buff. Necrons, Eldar, Khorne Daemonkin, SM, DA, Tau, Raven Guard and White Scars were all massive power level increases for that faction with their new dexes, or new detachment and formations in the case of Raven Guard and White Scars. This just shows that GW loves to shaft the guard.
Experiment 626 wrote: Well, if this is all that Guard are indeed getting, (according to both Sad Panda & Lady Atia), then it's almost certain that Chaos & Tyranids are likewise going to get nerfed into extinction.
The Necron decurion gives bonuses to Resurrection Protocols. The SM one gives bonuses to Combat Doctrines. The IG one gives bonuses to Orders.
The CSM decurion will give bonuses to Chaos Boon rolls. And will be just awful. Mark my words.
They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!
Nope!
Basically everything says "See Codex: Astra Militarum".
Now, that doesn't actually preclude them from doing changes later on to the book. By saying "See Codex: Astra Militarum" and just being the Formations with no points? It lets this book stay around even when AM gets a redo.
Wait a second......I can finally run a Command Squad & Yarrick?
Because If I take a CAD and the artillery commander, the Formation ISNT part of the primary detachment.......Im happy guys....so happy.
Seriously, so many rules that make sense for guard
*Vox casters being able to call in fire support and give barrage weapons twin linked on the target
*The fire and advance order allowing units to shoot as if stationary
*company command squads being able to issue orders to artillery
*more command vehicles like command sentinels
*Vehicles testing as an actual leadership value instead of that random +4 malarky
*encouraging orders like FRFSRF being able to be issued to multiple squads of the same platoon at once, as a single order, and have them shoot the same target.
*Artillery rules that can actually pin something for once
It hurts to see so many flavorful and cool ideas and know that they won't be in the actual codex, but instead be in some random, and more than likely limited edition, campaign book that sells out in like two days.
EDIT:
And to the guys claiming Guard never get anything good...
Did you seriously not play 5th edition? We were the second most hated codex back then, right behind Grey Knights. Look up "Leafblower" on the tactics forum and check out all the trouble people were having against it.
Or look up 5th ed's Vendetta rules sometime. Man those were a blast. Not to mention cheaper chimeras with 5 fire points, no hull points and a laughably weak penetration table making walls of chimeras nearly unstoppable.
Seriously guys, we have not always been GW's punching bag. Heck, I remember when Eldar was considered the weakest codex. This stuff always goes around in a circle. What's strong today will be pitiful tomorrow. What's pitiful today will be OP tomorrow. This is just how GW is.
Seriously, so many rules that make sense for guard
*Vox casters being able to call in fire support and give barrage weapons twin linked on the target
*The fire and advance order allowing units to shoot as if stationary
*company command squads being able to issue orders to artillery
*more command vehicles like command sentinels
*Vehicles testing as an actual leadership value instead of that random +4 malarky
*encouraging orders like FRFSRF being able to be issued to multiple squads of the same platoon at once, as a single order, and have them shoot the same target.
*Artillery rules that can actually pin something for once
It hurts to see so many flavorful and cool ideas and know that they won't be in the actual codex, but instead be in some random, and more than likely limited edition, campaign book that sells out in like two days
The most likely explanation is a new writer IMO. The writer who did the late 6th ed codexes and the early 7th like DE, Orks, and AM I hope got fired. The guy/team that's been writing the new ones (except eldar) deserves a raise.
They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!
Most of the rules aren't going to change. And the rules aren't what makes the Guard weak (although the rules that we got pale in comparison to the Necron & SM). It's that we pay way too much for crappy horde shooting. The rules we have are grossly overvalued for no obvious reason.
They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!
Most of the rules aren't going to change. And the rules aren't what makes the Guard weak (although the rules that we got pale in comparison to the Necron & SM). It's that we pay way too much for crappy horde shooting. The rules we have are grossly overvalued for no obvious reason.
Oh no, there's a reason.
It's called "legacy rules". Same reason why Terminators haven't really changed ever.
The formations, while not really in line with some of the more current codex based ones, are pretty neato (to me, at least).
I liked the Psyker one, until I realized that in order to really get the mass warp charges...you'd have to spam a lot of guys that die super easy. Shame too, I thought those guys would suck less.
The others were OK I suppose; the Super-Heavy one is obviously Apocalypse-specific (who runs 3 Super heavies, ever?), and some of the infantry ones were just stupid - like the Sentinel+Infantry one - who gives a crap about move through cover on Guard squads.
Others, like the arty one and the various Leman Russ ones are pretty nifty though - I might try and snag the book just to have it on hand and give them a whirl.
Still not very optimistic about our codex though, with the formations we're getting in Mont'ka GW might see fit to just NOT give us any in an update - or simply release new models that require you to buy their bundles in order to get the new rules, no new codex.
Pretending that points costs don't change, and we just get these formations, would IG compete with Decurion?
I'm thinking nope, NAFP.
The bonus rules are like a 5% bonus, but the Guard started at least 25% behind the curve, so the net result is like putting sprinkles on a turd cupcake. Without a fundamental change in points, Guard stay uncompetitive.
And it's not obvious that they compete with Eldar or SMs either. But its clear that Gauss and Living Metal will continue to own IG, formations or not.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Pretending that points costs don't change, and we just get these formations, would IG compete with Decurion?
I'm thinking nope, NAFP.
The bonus rules are like a 5% bonus, but the Guard started at least 25% behind the curve, so the net result is like putting sprinkles on a turd cupcake. Without a fundamental change in points, Guard stay uncompetitive.
And it's not obvious that they compete with Eldar or SMs either. But its clear that Gauss and Living Metal will continue to own IG, formations or not.
Well clearly, the problem with the IG codex is the fundamental issue of the order system and largely pointless upgrades tied to it like vox casters as well as horrendous internal balance with several units not knowing what they're supposed to do and the few ones that have a role are either overwhelmingly mediocre (Scions or Hydras) or overly good to the point of forcing players to take it in order to be competitive in some way (wyverns).
Guard need an entire overhaul to make the codex work and formations are, at most, going to be a bandage on that issue because if the units you're taking as part of a formation are inherently faulty, no matter how many buffs you give it its still going to be held back from its proper potential as a unit (and effectively makes units' worth entirely based on being taken solely in that formation).
Yay Guard are getting a 'Harness on 2+' unit. Because they're renowned for being fantastic psykers along the lines of Tzeentchian Daemons and Sorcerers.
Trasvi wrote: Yay Guard are getting a 'Harness on 2+' unit. Because they're renowned for being fantastic psykers along the lines of Tzeentchian Daemons and Sorcerers.
To be fair, its much crappier than a Librarius Conclave, since you have fragile ass units that you have to spam in order to make it work and unlike the conclave have to pay extra with commissars to guarantee the 2+ warp charge harness ability. Plus most of the spells you want to pull off with them (like prescience) can't be done inside a transport and therefore you either have to waste points on an aegis defence line or deploy very incongruously to maximize their survival rate against any sort of enemy fire.
Besides, I'd wager that when the Chaos Daemons book gets redone that the Daemon of Tzzentch rule will change the +3 Ld bonus to psychic tests to giving a +1 bonus to harnessing warp charges or re-rolling one's for casting psychic powers.
These formations seem to require an awful lot of models to make work, or they force you to break squadrons down into one model squads (which is rarely ideal). Who has 3 squads of artillery, or 3 squads of wrydvane psykers, or 3 squads of ogryn, or 3 squads of Valks? Someone with a better head for numbers and tactics will have to break these down, but nothing is jumping out at me as gotta-have choices and some are just plain silly.
Those formations are fluffny and neat. And not broken. I like it.
Armored Sentinels with outflank, also nice.
Did anyone else notice that there is now a (slim) chance to be able to make a Sentinel ram? Hilarious. Useless, but hilarious.
Also, this is the big one: THEY MADE THE RTO WITH THE OVERSIZED PRC-77 WORK LIKE AN RTO WITH AN OVERSIZED PRC-77.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_Armyman wrote: These formations seem to require an awful lot of models to make work, or they force you to break squadrons down into one model squads (which is rarely ideal). Who has 3 squads of artillery, or 3 squads of wrydvane psykers, or 3 squads of ogryn, or 3 squads of Valks? Someone with a better head for numbers and tactics will have to break these down, but nothing is jumping out at me as gotta-have choices and some are just plain silly.
Well, all the 12 year olds who picked up IG in 5th screaming HOW DO I WIN? I NEED MOAR VENDETTAS MOMMY GIVE ME MONEY! will probably have that many, but they're buried behind their giant pile of Riptides.
The Battle Group Command buffs are nice, but the Core choices seem limiting. I might give the Emperor's Talon Recon Co. a try since I like sentinels and it gives armored sents a bit of a buff being able to outflank and receive orders. All the rest are pretty meh for the way I have my army configured.
the_Armyman wrote: The Battle Group Command buffs are nice, but the Core choices seem limiting. I might give the Emperor's Talon Recon Co. a try since I like sentinels and it gives armored sents a bit of a buff being able to outflank and receive orders. All the rest are pretty meh for the way I have my army configured.
You need a command and a core choice in order to get an auxiliary....
the_Armyman wrote: These formations seem to require an awful lot of models to make work, or they force you to break squadrons down into one model squads (which is rarely ideal). Who has 3 squads of artillery, or 3 squads of wrydvane psykers, or 3 squads of ogryn, or 3 squads of Valks?
I have a ridiculous amount of IG. Looking at the formations:
Artillery Company - have CCS, Enginseer, Basilisk, & Wyvern; unbuilt Deathstrike / Manticore.
Psykers - have Primaris, 2 Psyker squads, Commissar; would need to redesignate a 2rd Psyker squad. Except IG Psykers suck so badly, it's pointless...
Ogryns - I have none. I have bits to build a count-as squad, but these have sucked so badly for so many editions, I won't even bother. At most, I'll build the count-as Nork and call it a day.
Valks - I own two, and am in the process of building 1; I sold the 3rd when I figured I'd never field them all. Not going to rebuy, as this is way spendy for what it does in game.
For the other stuff...
Battlegroup Command - why yes, I will take a Command Tank. That works just fine.
Infantry Company - I used to field the Apocalypyse version of this, when they got free barricades and could call down free Apocalypse Barrages on their own heads, if need be. Trading those bonuses for FRFSRF is a fething joke.
Armored Company - have loads of tanks, so Command Tank + 3 Leman Russ Squadrons & Enginseer is easy. This is the obvious build.
Superheavy Support - I have a Baneblade under construction, so a minimal pick goes here. Unless it's still grossly overcosted...
Upon closer inspection, it appears that that 2 old units got cut:
- NO Rough Riders anywhere in the list.
- NO Ratlings anywhere in the list.
I don't know if that's intentional, but losing them is definitely a fair trade to to get Command Tanks and Leman Russes as core...
I like it. I think the formations are fluffy and balanced. These are not the overpowered bs from Eldar or Necron codices, but ones that let you take units you want to play with and give them a little extra boost.
That's more than a bit overkill. What is going to need 290-440870-1320 lasgun shots, especially ones that can re-roll To Hit rolls of a 1 if taken in the Guard-curion? Like holy crap.
EDIT: Actually I just realised you can choose which units to order and you don't have to order every unit. That isn't too shabby then.
Also:
Spoiler:
What in the world is going to be able to survive 3 Super heavies firing with massive blast weapons that's actually worth firing at with Super Heavy grade weapons? That 4D6 Morale test is cool and all, but I only see it coming up if some how you've already killed the enemy's key power units and you're now using them to clear chaff (like Ork boyz, Cultist, Termagants, other IG)
@JohnHwangDD:
These are from the Mont'ka campaign. All the points are as they currently are in the codex. It's unknown whether the Baneblad variants are improved from the terrible Escalation rules, though.
So now an Infantry Platoon will be called The Emperor's Shield ? or is it a specific platoon with specific loadout?
I love these formations. I love the codex, as it is. The only thing it needed in my opinion was a decurion style detachment, and now we have it.
I really don't understand you guys when you say we IG players are getting the shaft. The IG codex is really powerful, and most important of all it's super fun to play.
Anyway, I see a detachment of a Battle Group Commands, Emperor's Fist and Emperor's Wrath formations in my future. Seriosuly, "Fire on my Target!" on a Basilisk? Überlol
2009 (5th Edition). I've been waiting a very long time for a new Imperial Guard Codex, as we didn't get one in 6th or 7th.
Ummm, you may have been waiting a bit longer than most, the latest IG codex was 6th Edition in April 2014, when they got the Wyvern added to the army list, Marbo was dropped, Kasrkin and Stormtroopers became Militarum Tempestus and the codex itself got renamed to Astra Militarum(if your post was meant as a dig at the renaming of the codex to AM, it didn't work IMO)
On another topic, I'm happy that the Guard are getting an update, as I am starting them myself, but the fact that the formations require a massive buy in to use as a new player is not very good, and I will, at least at first, remain building the mechanised list I have already built
Anybody else annoyed with the lack of priests and commisars? I really like the big infantry platoon formations, its the style I usually play, but without some morale support they really can't tarpit anything worthwhile...
faerrrd wrote: Anybody else annoyed with the lack of priests and commisars? I really like the big infantry platoon formations, its the style I usually play, but without some morale support they really can't tarpit anything worthwhile...
Commissars are an upgrade for Infantry Platoons now in the Astra Militarum codex, though you can only take 1 per platoon (which heavily emphasises blob squads of course). It looks like you can a Lord Commissar as part of the required Battle Group Command formation though.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The CSM decurion will give bonuses to Chaos Boon rolls. And will be just awful. Mark my words.
And the Tyranid one will give bonuses to... umm... bonus to... uhh...
Oh God!
IB is a random table, right?
+1 to all IB tests, and SiTW is now -5 Ld for Psykers manifesting powers, except it's written in a way that makes it also effect your Psykers!
FUN!
And to balance out those bonuses you also become subject to Shoot the Big Ones - all shooting attacks against Tyranid MC have the Monster Hunter and Ignores Cover special rules!
faerrrd wrote: Anybody else annoyed with the lack of priests and commisars? I really like the big infantry platoon formations, its the style I usually play, but without some morale support they really can't tarpit anything worthwhile...
Commissars are an upgrade for Infantry Platoons now in the Astra Militarum codex, though you can only take 1 per platoon (which heavily emphasises blob squads of course). It looks like you can a Lord Commissar as part of the required Battle Group Command formation though.
Ahh that helps a bit. Still wish there was an option for priests though ^^
So, if I take Tank Commander as a "high command" choice and an armored fist thing, do I still need to take a second tank commander or can I use one I've already taken with my "high command choice"? And then again, if I cant do that, does the tank commander from the armored tank fist thing has to be a separate model with his own friend (as per rules, the tank commander has to take at least one buddy, meaning I'd have to take AT LEAST 5 Russess to make that formation), or can he be assigned to one of the models from 3 Russ Squadrons?
CragHack wrote: So, if I take Tank Commander as a "high command" choice and an armored fist thing, do I still need to take a second tank commander or can I use one I've already taken with my "high command choice"? And then again, if I cant do that, does the tank commander from the armored tank fist thing has to be a separate model with his own friend (as per rules, the tank commander has to take at least one buddy, meaning I'd have to take AT LEAST 5 Russess to make that formation), or can he be assigned to one of the models from 3 Russ Squadrons?
They are separate formations, so they would need to be separate units. When it names a unit you have to follow all the requirements of that unit. "Tank Commander" is actually the name of a HQ unit, and the unit entry says there must be 1-2 other tanks in the squadron.
It would actually be 7 Russes minimum - 1 Tank Commander unit (which is at least 2 Russes) for the Battle Group Command, then another Tank Commander unit plus 3 Leman Russ Squadrons (of at least 1 Russ each) for the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company. And an Enginseer.
CragHack wrote: So, if I take Tank Commander as a "high command" choice and an armored fist thing, do I still need to take a second tank commander or can I use one I've already taken with my "high command choice"? And then again, if I cant do that, does the tank commander from the armored tank fist thing has to be a separate model with his own friend (as per rules, the tank commander has to take at least one buddy, meaning I'd have to take AT LEAST 5 Russess to make that formation), or can he be assigned to one of the models from 3 Russ Squadrons?
They are separate formations, so they would need to be separate units. When it names a unit you have to follow all the requirements of that unit. "Tank Commander" is actually the name of a HQ unit, and the unit entry says there must be 1-2 other tanks in the squadron.
It would actually be 7 Russes minimum - 1 Tank Commander unit (which is at least 2 Russes) for the Battle Group Command, then another Tank Commander unit plus 3 Leman Russ Squadrons (of at least 1 Russ each) for the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company. And an Enginseer.
I don't think you have to take a Tank Commander squad, just a Tank Commander, singular. By the wording that's how I'm interpreting it anyway.
I'm confused. The Emperor's Shield bundle they threw up on the web store includes two infantry squads and says that is all you need to run the formation, but the rules say you need five infantry teams minimum... Either heavy weapon squads and platoon command squads are counted as infantry squads, or someone dun goofed
t would actually be 7 Russes minimum - 1 Tank Commander unit (which is at least 2 Russes) for the Battle Group Command, then another Tank Commander unit plus 3 Leman Russ Squadrons (of at least 1 Russ each) for the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company. And an Enginseer.
Sucks :(
I don't think you have to take a Tank Commander squad, just a Tank Commander, singular. By the wording that's how I'm interpreting it anyway.
But the codex states that a Tank Commander MUST be accompanied by at least 1 other Russ...
t would actually be 7 Russes minimum - 1 Tank Commander unit (which is at least 2 Russes) for the Battle Group Command, then another Tank Commander unit plus 3 Leman Russ Squadrons (of at least 1 Russ each) for the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company. And an Enginseer.
Sucks :(
I don't think you have to take a Tank Commander squad, just a Tank Commander, singular. By the wording that's how I'm interpreting it anyway.
But the codex states that a Tank Commander MUST be accompanied by at least 1 other Russ...
I know, but the wording in the detachments sound like they mean just the commander itself. Feels like they should've written "Tank Commander unit" if they meant the commander +1. I could be wrong though, but it's not a first for GW to be vague about requirements for a formation.
It just doesn't make sense for me, with the +1. The Tank Commander should be a separate, single tank that commands the rest of the tanks. Oh well, it seems I'm alone with this thinking, so never mind.
diepotato47 wrote: I'm confused. The Emperor's Shield bundle they threw up on the web store includes two infantry squads and says that is all you need to run the formation, but the rules say you need five infantry teams minimum... Either heavy weapon squads and platoon command squads are counted as infantry squads, or someone dun goofed
I'm starting to think it should read "units with the Infantry type", because the wording on an Emperor's Shield Platoon is this:
The Infantry Platoon must include at least five Infantry Squads. Units taken as part of the Infantry Platoon may not take Dedicated Transports.
There's no way to take more than 5 Infantry Squads in an Infantry Platoon.
The name of the unit in the Astra Militarum codex is literally "Tank Commander". The rules for the unit say there must be 1-2 other Russes with him.
The Armoured Battle Group formation in Imperial Armour 1 is different, where the Company Command Tank is a single Russ. That might be where you're getting confused.
GoonBandito wrote: The name of the unit in the Astra Militarum codex is literally "Tank Commander". The rules for the unit say there must be 1-2 other Russes with him.
The Armoured Battle Group formation in Imperial Armour 1 is different, where the Company Command Tank is a single Russ. That might be where you're getting confused.
Yeah, could be. I've actually run a ABG a few times lately, so it could be where my confusion comes from.
I still think it's a shame though, I do have the tanks to run it, but it feels like the commander should be alone, commanding the other tanks. As it is now, he can only command the tank that runs with him. Sure he gives the other tanks BS4, but him being alone and getting some new orders to give other tanks around him from other squadrons would be cool.
GoonBandito wrote: The name of the unit in the Astra Militarum codex is literally "Tank Commander". The rules for the unit say there must be 1-2 other Russes with him.
The Armoured Battle Group formation in Imperial Armour 1 is different, where the Company Command Tank is a single Russ. That might be where you're getting confused.
Yeah, could be. I've actually run a ABG a few times lately, so it could be where my confusion comes from.
I still think it's a shame though, I do have the tanks to run it, but it feels like the commander should be alone, commanding the other tanks. As it is now, he can only command the tank that runs with him. Sure he gives the other tanks BS4, but him being alone and getting some new orders to give other tanks around him from other squadrons would be cool.
Ehh. It comes down to the idea that Guard leaders should always have a "bodyguard". So look! Here's your Commander with his Bodyguard!
Yeah it seems pretty obvious that the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon is supposed to include Infanty Platoons without any restrictions except you have to take a minimum of five units in each Platoon (minimum in the Codex is three: one Command Squad and two Infantry Squads). By "Infantry Squads" it seems they mean "Squads with the unit type Infantry" which is technically correct I guess... weird though since you can't take anything other than Infantry in a Platoon.
That would make the Infantry Company more reasonable:
1 Company Command 3 Platoon Command 60 Guardsmen 3 Sentinels 6 of any combination of HW Squads, Special Weapons Squads and Conscript Squads
Mymearan wrote: Yeah it seems pretty obvious that the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon is supposed to include Infanty Platoons without any restrictions except you have to take a minimum of five units in each Platoon (minimum in the Codex is three: one Command Squad and two Infantry Squads). By "Infantry Squads" it seems they mean "Squads with the unit type Infantry" which is technically correct I guess... weird though since you can't take anything other than Infantry in a Platoon.
That would make the Infantry Company more reasonable:
1 Company Command
3 Platoon Command
60 Guardsmen
3 Sentinels
6 of any combination of HW Squads, Special Weapons Squads and Conscript Squads
This does seem a lot more reasonable.
I wonder if these formations are built more to accompany changes that we might see in an upcoming new codex. Maybe once some of the units get overhauled they will make a little more sense.
GoonBandito wrote: The name of the unit in the Astra Militarum codex is literally "Tank Commander". The rules for the unit say there must be 1-2 other Russes with him.
The Armoured Battle Group formation in Imperial Armour 1 is different, where the Company Command Tank is a single Russ. That might be where you're getting confused.
Yeah, could be. I've actually run a ABG a few times lately, so it could be where my confusion comes from.
I still think it's a shame though, I do have the tanks to run it, but it feels like the commander should be alone, commanding the other tanks. As it is now, he can only command the tank that runs with him. Sure he gives the other tanks BS4, but him being alone and getting some new orders to give other tanks around him from other squadrons would be cool.
Ehh. It comes down to the idea that Guard leaders should always have a "bodyguard". So look! Here's your Commander with his Bodyguard!
Yeah I buy that explanation. A commander having a bodyguard is just fine, but I still stand by my opinion that the Tank Commander should have a set of orders he can give to other tanks, just like the Command Squad can give orders to other squads. As it is right now a Tank Commander only really commands his own squad instead of the whole tank battalion, which I think is a little boring. Having a dedicated Tank Commander that leads an armoured battalion with numerous tanks and artillery is like a wet dream for me. It can be done on a purely model and detachment level, but on the order side it's lacking.
That's still an absurd number for just a core. How much is it, bare bones?
Just the command and one company means 2 CCS and 3 PCS. With the order range, success rate and count buff from the composite, isn't that overkill? Do you even need that much?
Cadians sure love their orders, half the formations are about giving orders to more stuff.
The whole thing is 1090 points. 150 less if PQS counts as one of the 5 infantry squads. That's just barebones, taking only regular guardsmen. Add some more points if you want to take Commissars (which, imo are a must) and then you are only left with a very few choices if you are playing 1850. Ofc, this might change if the new codex reduces the prices significantly. But maaaaan is that going to be expensive: At least 100 quid for a one platoon. And you will be needing 3 of those...
You need one more for Battle Group Command. So that's 831. Assuming we don't need 150 guardsmen. And that you ain't taking a Tank Commander (which would be more points).
Unless they do mean 155 guardsmen minimum per Emperor's Shield... Maybe someone at gw added a few too many zero's on the production quantities and now they have to shift the stock? :p
I actually don't mind the whole 150 guardsmen thing. I mean, I'd gladly have that many in my regular games. I just don't like that the formation forces us to either spam regular troops (AND Sentinels), or - oven worse - special weapon teams able to field it. Conscripts could save a bunch load of extra points and they don't really suffer from their stats when buffed accordingly.
I mean look at them. Let me run them like this. I don't want 150 infantry models that is just ridiculous for a regiment like that....
Spoiler:
Gorgeous army. Are those planes just Ork jets with new noses?
That is the ork flyer kit with backwards wings, a guardsman as the pilot, and green stuff noses.
Anyway, lets just hope that the actual imperial guard codex allows for more varied playstyles. I want to implement some rough rider dragoons, and make an armored car like the cadillaic gage. Those can somewhat fit within the Ig codex as stand ins, but what if someone wants to make a feral world regiment with wolly mammoths and sabre tooth tigers?
faerrrd wrote: Anybody else annoyed with the lack of priests and commisars? I really like the big infantry platoon formations, its the style I usually play, but without some morale support they really can't tarpit anything worthwhile...
Commissars are an upgrade for Infantry Platoons now in the Astra Militarum codex, though you can only take 1 per platoon (which heavily emphasises blob squads of course). It looks like you can a Lord Commissar as part of the required Battle Group Command formation though.
Ahh that helps a bit. Still wish there was an option for priests though ^^
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought priests and psychers were an 0-5 option per CCS in the army (or something similar)? Maybe that still applies?
GoonBandito wrote: The name of the unit in the Astra Militarum codex is literally "Tank Commander". The rules for the unit say there must be 1-2 other Russes with him.
The Armoured Battle Group formation in Imperial Armour 1 is different, where the Company Command Tank is a single Russ. That might be where you're getting confused.
Yeah, could be. I've actually run a ABG a few times lately, so it could be where my confusion comes from.
I still think it's a shame though, I do have the tanks to run it, but it feels like the commander should be alone, commanding the other tanks. As it is now, he can only command the tank that runs with him. Sure he gives the other tanks BS4, but him being alone and getting some new orders to give other tanks around him from other squadrons would be cool.
Ehh. It comes down to the idea that Guard leaders should always have a "bodyguard". So look! Here's your Commander with his Bodyguard!
Yeah I buy that explanation. A commander having a bodyguard is just fine, but I still stand by my opinion that the Tank Commander should have a set of orders he can give to other tanks, just like the Command Squad can give orders to other squads. As it is right now a Tank Commander only really commands his own squad instead of the whole tank battalion, which I think is a little boring. Having a dedicated Tank Commander that leads an armoured battalion with numerous tanks and artillery is like a wet dream for me. It can be done on a purely model and detachment level, but on the order side it's lacking.
For all we know the new rumored book could change Tank Commanders to be solo and have the ability to give orders to other tank units. That would make more sense at least, plus if everyone else is allowed to sling out orders it would make sense for them to do it as well
edit. also, BS 4 on all the tanks in 12 seems pretty good, especially for Vanquishers, Punishers, and Exterminators plus sponson madness
faerrrd wrote: Anybody else annoyed with the lack of priests and commisars? I really like the big infantry platoon formations, its the style I usually play, but without some morale support they really can't tarpit anything worthwhile...
Commissars are an upgrade for Infantry Platoons now in the Astra Militarum codex, though you can only take 1 per platoon (which heavily emphasises blob squads of course). It looks like you can a Lord Commissar as part of the required Battle Group Command formation though.
Ahh that helps a bit. Still wish there was an option for priests though ^^
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought priests and psychers were an 0-5 option per CCS in the army (or something similar)? Maybe that still applies?
I just looked at my book again, and it actually says that each astra militarum detachment may include 0-3 priest, primaris and enginseer, does the formations count as independent detachments in this case then?
GoonBandito wrote: The name of the unit in the Astra Militarum codex is literally "Tank Commander". The rules for the unit say there must be 1-2 other Russes with him.
The Armoured Battle Group formation in Imperial Armour 1 is different, where the Company Command Tank is a single Russ. That might be where you're getting confused.
Yeah, could be. I've actually run a ABG a few times lately, so it could be where my confusion comes from.
I still think it's a shame though, I do have the tanks to run it, but it feels like the commander should be alone, commanding the other tanks. As it is now, he can only command the tank that runs with him. Sure he gives the other tanks BS4, but him being alone and getting some new orders to give other tanks around him from other squadrons would be cool.
Ehh. It comes down to the idea that Guard leaders should always have a "bodyguard". So look! Here's your Commander with his Bodyguard!
Yeah I buy that explanation. A commander having a bodyguard is just fine, but I still stand by my opinion that the Tank Commander should have a set of orders he can give to other tanks, just like the Command Squad can give orders to other squads. As it is right now a Tank Commander only really commands his own squad instead of the whole tank battalion, which I think is a little boring. Having a dedicated Tank Commander that leads an armoured battalion with numerous tanks and artillery is like a wet dream for me. It can be done on a purely model and detachment level, but on the order side it's lacking.
For all we know the new rumored book could change Tank Commanders to be solo and have the ability to give orders to other tank units. That would make more sense at least, plus if everyone else is allowed to sling out orders it would make sense for them to do it as well
edit. also, BS 4 on all the tanks in 12 seems pretty good, especially for Vanquishers, Punishers, and Exterminators plus sponson madness
There is a relic that allows the tank commander to order another unit as well as his own when he gives an order. Better than nothing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Why? The Stompa became Orks LOW.
The Khorne Mower became KDK LOW
Plastic super heavies become the LOW for them
Yes but we're the Guard son. We don't get nice things. I once showed up to a big game day at my FLGS and people gave me weird looks when I said "yeah the Deathstrike isn't Strength D it's strength 10." The general response was, "how is that seriously not strength D when everyone else gets D in their codex somehow?" My reply was always "IG don't get nice things. Ever."
If you have low expectations to begin with, you wont be BTFO when the truth turns out to be terrible. My realistic hopes for this codex are a decurion with some kind of recycling mechanic for Platoons or conscripts, and some kind of mechanic that buffs orders or leadership. That's about it. I don't see point costs reductions, unit buffs, or anything of the sort being a realistic expectation for our faction.
Remember those little quotes from Dawn of War? "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Keep that in mind Guardsman, especially when it comes to releases for us.
Orks are still waiting on their real 7th ed codex. Orks don't get nice things either.
faerrrd wrote: Anybody else annoyed with the lack of priests and commisars? I really like the big infantry platoon formations, its the style I usually play, but without some morale support they really can't tarpit anything worthwhile...
Commissars are 1 per CCS/PCS. You can definitely take those. Priests/Prims/Techies are 0-3 per guard detachment and don't take slots. That's a bit more arguable as it was written with the cad in mind but raw you can still have them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I notice that GW has a bundle up on their site for the Emperors Shield...
It says you get everything you need to field it, and what you get is 3 sentinels, One command box, 2 squad boxes, 2 HWT boxes.
So that might speak to a misprint in the formation rules? Maybe it's supposed to be 5 squads OF ANY KIND?
There is a relic that allows the tank commander to order another unit as well as his own when he gives an order. Better than nothing.
Just so we're clear, Kabe's Herald:
A Tank Commander in your army may be equipped with Kabe's Herald. When a model equipped with Kabe's Herald uses its Tank Orders special rule, you can pick any other Leman Russ squadrons within 12"; each of those squadrons is also affected by the Tank Order, as though it was part of the Tank Commander's unit. If the Tank Commander chose the 'Gunners, Kill on Sight' order, any other squadrons that are affected gain the Split Fire special rule for the duration of the phase.
Soooo...Kabe's Herald is pretty awesome. It's probably going to be pricey as all get out.
the_scotsman wrote:
Commissars are 1 per CCS/PCS. You can definitely take those. Priests/Prims/Techies are 0-3 per guard detachment and don't take slots. That's a bit more arguable as it was written with the cad in mind but raw you can still have them.
Or you might not be able to. We have to wait and see what the "Cadian Detachment" rule does, as that seems to define some stuff that we have not seen yet.
the_scotsman wrote: Also I notice that GW has a bundle up on their site for the Emperors Shield...
It says you get everything you need to field it, and what you get is 3 sentinels, One command box, 2 squad boxes, 2 HWT boxes.
So that might speak to a misprint in the formation rules? Maybe it's supposed to be 5 squads OF ANY KIND?
So either:
GW messed up when claiming that their bundle contains enough models for a formation.
GW messed up when writing the core rules for our core formation.
I'm not sure which option says the least about GW...
On a happier note...
Has anyone else noticed that the cores are 0-3 per command? It means that whenever we take an extra company command squad we might as well take it as a stand-alone Battle Group Command formation. It allows an extra order per turn, increases the chance that the unit can order itself around, and boosts the firepower of the... uh... 0-4 lasguns in that unit. Still, 3 orders are better than 2.
For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
hopefully this will be cleaned up in some other parts of the new book! Id like the idea of being able to switch up some squads for HWT or SWS, or maybe even go super blob with conscripts
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
At this point, I'm 99% sure this is the case.
For all we know they could rework the "platoon" as we know it. Maybe all squads will be Infantry squads but you make a HWT by combining models (so three teams + sergeant) or you trade up for more special weapons to make a special weapon squad? The possibilities are there and its only been the last 2 books that the platoons worked like that anyways, so theres no legacy issues to content with.
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
At this point, I'm 99% sure this is the case.
Although you might be right the image of 150 guardsman running around and shooting as they advance warms my heart
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
At this point, I'm 99% sure this is the case.
For all we know they could rework the "platoon" as we know it. Maybe all squads will be Infantry squads but you make a HWT by combining models (so three teams + sergeant) or you trade up for more special weapons to make a special weapon squad? The possibilities are there and its only been the last 2 books that the platoons worked like that anyways, so theres no legacy issues to content with.
It's not going to rework the "platoon" as we know it for this supplement's detachment.
Literally the only thing that's going on right now is that we're unsure as to one piece of wording. Since they have yet to release a formation bundle that cannot actually fulfill the criteria for the formation, and since the wording of that particular platoon says that it "must consist of at least five infantry squads" the logical thing is to run with it just meaning "squads with the infantry type".
gradam01 wrote: For the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, is it possible that GW meant that it needs at least 5 squads instead of 5 infantry squads? That way the bundle with 1 PCS, 2 Infantry squads, and 2 Heavy Weapons squads would be legal.
Or GW is using "infantry squads" lower case as in "made up of infantry models" to future proof if they add sentinels to the platoon or something.
At this point, I'm 99% sure this is the case.
Although you might be right the image of 150 guardsman running around and shooting as they advance warms my heart
M.
Hey, nothing stopping you if it is the case!
The wording is "AT LEAST" five infantry squads. Nothing saying you can't have an Emperor's Shield Infantry Company with 3 Platoons consisting of the maximum 5 Infantry Squads, the maximum amount of Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons Teams and even Conscripts for the fun of it!
I really do like these formations, at least from a fluff perspective. At first look, I don't think they are hyper competitive, but I do think we finally have some better options to bring.
Taking the web bundle out of it, I think RAW and RAI, from what i have seen, really does lean towards taking 5 infantry squads per emperors shield platoon. That is the guard infantry way, over running with bodies. If you look at the new order they are given, it gives heavy weapons essential relentless. I would see that as meaning take 5 infantry squads, add a heavy weapons team to each one, blob them together, and have the PCS give it that order.
The big problem I see with these whole detachment is how expensive it will cost under the current codex. I can't see more then maybe 2 that could be purchased under 400 points, and some are above that without any upgrades.
Findslo wrote: I really do like these formations, at least from a fluff perspective. At first look, I don't think they are hyper competitive, but I do think we finally have some better options to bring.
Taking the web bundle out of it, I think RAW and RAI, from what i have seen, really does lean towards taking 5 infantry squads per emperors shield platoon. That is the guard infantry way, over running with bodies. If you look at the new order they are given, it gives heavy weapons essential relentless. I would see that as meaning take 5 infantry squads, add a heavy weapons team to each one, blob them together, and have the PCS give it that order.
The big problem I see with these whole detachment is how expensive it will cost under the current codex. I can't see more then maybe 2 that could be purchased under 400 points, and some are above that without any upgrades.
You really do have to keep the web bundle in the discussion though.
Why? Because this would quite literally be the first time that one which has said "This bundle lets you field this formation" has been mistaken.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Why? The Stompa became Orks LOW.
The Khorne Mower became KDK LOW
Plastic super heavies become the LOW for them
Yes but we're the Guard son. We don't get nice things. I once showed up to a big game day at my FLGS and people gave me weird looks when I said "yeah the Deathstrike isn't Strength D it's strength 10." The general response was, "how is that seriously not strength D when everyone else gets D in their codex somehow?" My reply was always "IG don't get nice things. Ever."
If you have low expectations to begin with, you wont be BTFO when the truth turns out to be terrible. My realistic hopes for this codex are a decurion with some kind of recycling mechanic for Platoons or conscripts, and some kind of mechanic that buffs orders or leadership. That's about it. I don't see point costs reductions, unit buffs, or anything of the sort being a realistic expectation for our faction.
Remember those little quotes from Dawn of War? "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Keep that in mind Guardsman, especially when it comes to releases for us.
Orks are still waiting on their real 7th ed codex. Orks don't get nice things either.
Findslo wrote: I really do like these formations, at least from a fluff perspective. At first look, I don't think they are hyper competitive, but I do think we finally have some better options to bring.
Taking the web bundle out of it, I think RAW and RAI, from what i have seen, really does lean towards taking 5 infantry squads per emperors shield platoon. That is the guard infantry way, over running with bodies. If you look at the new order they are given, it gives heavy weapons essential relentless. I would see that as meaning take 5 infantry squads, add a heavy weapons team to each one, blob them together, and have the PCS give it that order.
The big problem I see with these whole detachment is how expensive it will cost under the current codex. I can't see more then maybe 2 that could be purchased under 400 points, and some are above that without any upgrades.
You really do have to keep the web bundle in the discussion though.
Why? Because this would quite literally be the first time that one which has said "This bundle lets you field this formation" has been mistaken.
True. Maybe I'm just hoping to get that rumored point decrease. It would be fun to field 3 50 man blobs with heavy weapons and not have it cost 3/4 of your army.
aka_mythos wrote: So with this I can use multiple Baneblades... as part of my armored company... hmmmm
Depending on how future points costs work out, a line of BS4 AV14 tanks that reduce the effects of pens with enginseers backed up by 3 superheavies with bonus repair that also reduce your charge range is probably the best combo at first glance. You can field a full army of battle tanks now, no bodies/forge world rules quibbling required.
I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
If Tau is any indication they won't be getting any. GW's new MO seems to be to just offer up new formations while leaving the points costs and individual units' rules as-is.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
If Tau is any indication they won't be getting any. GW's new MO seems to be to just offer up new formations while leaving the points costs and individual units' rules as-is.
That's what I'm worried about, because formations are not going to fix IG
All things considered I think they improve the Imperial Guard, but it remains to be seen if it's enough. I think it certainly plays to the most prevalent IG army lists... Yet it does seem to give some of the fluffier things an opportunity to shine; gasp artillery that functions like artillery.
I will have to rethink the guard army I litterally got the last models for earlier today.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
If Tau is any indication they won't be getting any. GW's new MO seems to be to just offer up new formations while leaving the points costs and individual units' rules as-is.
Just in time for Chaos, Nids and Guard. Yay! Then back to a new paradigm which benefits the usual suspects again...
Not *those* formations, at least. The IG infantry formation is, by far, the weakest when you look at the core Eldar & SM formations. Eldar get free guns. SMs get free transports. IG get orders. WTF?
Had IG simply gotten their Apoc freebies (free barricades and free barrages), that might have been OK.
And even worse, they potentially need *5* useless infantry squads per platoon, where Apoc used to allow minimum platoons? Completely not worth the points compared to the tank company.
Yeah, the only way these formations are worth a damn is if they are future-proofed to work with a HEAVILY buffed codex coming in the future. Not counting on it.
These formations are awesome! I just hope that it's not 50 guardsmen minimum per Emperor's Shield and that the actual codex included some formation that allows me to add Chimeras and Priests without having to explain to my opponent the difference between "unbound fun" and unbound cheese"
casvalremdeikun wrote: Yeah, the only way these formations are worth a damn is if they are future-proofed to work with a HEAVILY buffed codex coming in the future. Not counting on it.
Can you or someone else please explain to me what you think is wrong with our current codex? I can't really find any major flaws, except the lack of strong formations and a decurion style detachment (which is the norm for newer codices now) and now we have those.
I have no problem competing with my IG army. Sure, against Eldar and Necrons there are problems, but I think our current codex is one of the more balanced ones at the moment, and it's dang fun to play. With this new detachment, the new formations and what not I think it might just become a really strong codex.
What exactly is wrong with our current codex, and what "HEAVY buffs" you speak of do we really need?
Kanluwen wrote: Why? Because this would quite literally be the first time that one which has said "This bundle lets you field this formation" has been mistaken.
The Eldar Windrider detachment box was missing a Farseer/Warlock, and came up short.
Has anyone else noticed too that the rules say 1+ command... so you can legally run an entire army of company command squads, tank commanders and Lord Commissars, with no core... Food for thought
I don't think it will be the AM codex in the spring. I think I might know what it is, but I'd prefer to keep it in the family for now, lest my brothers turn to brooding.
Kanluwen wrote: Why? Because this would quite literally be the first time that one which has said "This bundle lets you field this formation" has been mistaken.
The Eldar Windrider detachment box was missing a Farseer/Warlock, and came up short.
The Eldar Windrider Battlehost boxed set was not advertised as meeting the criteria for the formation of the same name.
It's still available via GW Direct, and it only says the following:
This Battlehost is an amazing collection of miniatures, giving you a Farseer Skyrunner, an Eldar Vyper Jetbike and nine(!) Eldar Windrider Jetbikes. None shall escape the power and anger of the Craftworlds, should you choose to send this lot into battle.
Compare that to the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon:
This bundle gives you everything needed to field the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon, a formation found in War Zone Damocles: Mont’ka. You’ll receive a Cadian Command Squad, two sets of Cadian Shock Troops, two Cadian Heavy Weapons Squads and three Sentinels - thirty-four models in total, for an awesome Astra Militarum strike force!
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
If Tau is any indication they won't be getting any. GW's new MO seems to be to just offer up new formations while leaving the points costs and individual units' rules as-is.
That's what I'm worried about, because formations are not going to fix IG
If these formations are all they can offer, then I'm done with IG.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
If Tau is any indication they won't be getting any. GW's new MO seems to be to just offer up new formations while leaving the points costs and individual units' rules as-is.
That's what I'm worried about, because formations are not going to fix IG
If these formations are all they can offer, then I'm done with IG.
I don't think the tau release is the new norm. Why would it? It was already powerful and therefore they didn't up their individual power levels, but "had to" add power via formations and were too scared of nerfing the individual units. With IG they can add power to both (units and formations) without making balance even worse or people crying due to nerfs.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I don't think it will be the AM codex in the spring. I think I might know what it is, but I'd prefer to keep it in the family for now, lest my brothers turn to brooding.
As much as I really want the new codex in the spring, I agree that the inclusion of these detachments and formation don't seem to make it likely. The only way I could see them doing it was if they planned to release a ton of new infantry models of a different type than cadian. The interesting thing about this release is that it doesnt have any new models. Usually codex releases come with a good size model release as well.
There has to be something wrong with the Emperor's Shield requirements, right? Three platoons with five squads each on top of the other restrictions seems vastly out of place in regular 40k. Taking the bare minimum I can only take the core of the formation with an artillery auxiliary not including any upgrades to really anything.
All the other decursion formations we have seen thus far have not been anywhere nearly as restrictive as a core of 175 models. It just seems so... wrong to me. As if there was a misprint in production.
I personally believe the infantry company should only require one shield platoon, maybe two, but three seems grossly unnecessary.
Guess we will see what else is in the book come Saturday, but as a newer player I am so very dissapointed to see that I am priced out by model count of just the core.
RaptorHunter wrote: There has to be something wrong with the Emperor's Shield requirements, right? Three platoons with five squads each on top of the other restrictions seems vastly out of place in regular 40k. Taking the bare minimum I can only take the core of the formation with an artillery auxiliary not including any upgrades to really anything.
All the other decursion formations we have seen thus far have not been anywhere nearly as restrictive as a core of 175 models. It just seems so... wrong to me. As if there was a misprint in production.
I personally believe the infantry company should only require one shield platoon, maybe two, but three seems grossly unnecessary.
Guess we will see what else is in the book come Saturday, but as a newer player I am so very dissapointed to see that I am priced out by model count of just the core.
Actually, what it looks like is that "infantry squad" does not refer to the specific unit but rather any unit with the "infantry" type.
Speaking as an older player who has 125 Guardsman? Even I couldn't meet that, except by cheesing a bit and pulling some bits from Heavy Weapon teams that I haven't built yet.
RaptorHunter wrote: There has to be something wrong with the Emperor's Shield requirements, right? Three platoons with five squads each on top of the other restrictions seems vastly out of place in regular 40k. Taking the bare minimum I can only take the core of the formation with an artillery auxiliary not including any upgrades to really anything.
All the other decursion formations we have seen thus far have not been anywhere nearly as restrictive as a core of 175 models. It just seems so... wrong to me. As if there was a misprint in production.
I personally believe the infantry company should only require one shield platoon, maybe two, but three seems grossly unnecessary.
Guess we will see what else is in the book come Saturday, but as a newer player I am so very dissapointed to see that I am priced out by model count of just the core.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I don't think it will be the AM codex in the spring. I think I might know what it is, but I'd prefer to keep it in the family for now, lest my brothers turn to brooding.
As much as I really want the new codex in the spring, I agree that the inclusion of these detachments and formation don't seem to make it likely. The only way I could see them doing it was if they planned to release a ton of new infantry models of a different type than cadian. The interesting thing about this release is that it doesnt have any new models. Usually codex releases come with a good size model release as well.
They could be double dipping like with the tau book, release formations now, then in a month or two release them all in an actual book and "make" you buy it twice, maybe even have an entirely different decurion formation but with the same component formations
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I don't think it will be the AM codex in the spring. I think I might know what it is, but I'd prefer to keep it in the family for now, lest my brothers turn to brooding.
As much as I really want the new codex in the spring, I agree that the inclusion of these detachments and formation don't seem to make it likely. The only way I could see them doing it was if they planned to release a ton of new infantry models of a different type than cadian. The interesting thing about this release is that it doesnt have any new models. Usually codex releases come with a good size model release as well.
They could be double dipping like with the tau book, release formations now, then in a month or two release them all in an actual book and "make" you buy it twice, maybe even have an entirely different decurion formation but with the same component formations
With that thought in mind Im really not sure if Im even going to buy this supplement. Im very wary about being burned by a soon to follow codex. Even if I weren't, my disappointment with the formations makes me want to skip it. It's not a cheap book after all
diepotato47 wrote: These formations are awesome! I just hope that it's not 50 guardsmen minimum per Emperor's Shield and that the actual codex included some formation that allows me to add Chimeras and Priests without having to explain to my opponent the difference between "unbound fun" and unbound cheese"
The Emperor's Shield formation is pretty bad.
Spoiler:
Emperor's Shield Infantry Company
Spoiler:
You take 3 Platoons to get extra FRFSRF? Not free weapons / Transports. Not free barricades / artillery. Just FRFSRF. It's kinda crappy, right? But maybe the Platoon rules make up for it?
Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon
Spoiler:
Minimum 5 Infantry Squads, so that's like this: Platoon Command Squad (5) + Infantry Squad 1 (10) + Infantry Squad 2 (10) + Infantry Squad 3 (10) + Infantry Squad 4 (10) + Infantry Squad 5 (10) = minimum 55 Guardsmen, not 50, in each platoon.
For this massive investment in crap models, the Guardsmen get a conditional Move Through Cover and ONE unit gets to move and shoot, if the order is successful. If the order fails, the unit may well be SOL. And NO Transports.
But wait, there's more. If you take 2 more of them (minimum 170 Guardsmen total), they all get FRFSRF with their lasguns against a single target.
Quite frankly, this is pure crap, and I won't bother with it. The Platoon should simply be a Platoon, with the bonus of give free defenses (barricades or minefields) to match the "Shield" name. Then the Company should have 4 Apocalypse Barrages waiting in Reserves, following the MOO rules.
So don't worry, nobody will call this "unbound cheese".
diepotato47 wrote: These formations are awesome! I just hope that it's not 50 guardsmen minimum per Emperor's Shield and that the actual codex included some formation that allows me to add Chimeras and Priests without having to explain to my opponent the difference between "unbound fun" and unbound cheese"
The Emperor's Shield formation is pretty bad.
Spoiler:
Emperor's Shield Infantry Company
Spoiler:
You take 3 Platoons to get extra FRFSRF? Not free weapons / Transports. Not free barricades / artillery. Just FRFSRF. It's kinda crappy, right? But maybe the Platoon rules make up for it?
Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon
Spoiler:
Minimum 5 Infantry Squads, so that's like this:
Platoon Command Squad (5)
+ Infantry Squad 1 (10)
+ Infantry Squad 2 (10)
+ Infantry Squad 3 (10)
+ Infantry Squad 4 (10)
+ Infantry Squad 5 (10)
= minimum 55 Guardsmen, not 50, in each platoon.
For this massive investment in crap models, the Guardsmen get a conditional Move Through Cover and ONE unit gets to move and shoot, if the order is successful. If the order fails, the unit may well be SOL. And NO Transports.
But wait, there's more. If you take 2 more of them (minimum 170 Guardsmen total), they all get FRFSRF with their lasguns against a single target.
Quite frankly, this is pure crap, and I won't bother with it. The Platoon should simply be a Platoon, with the bonus of give free defenses (barricades or minefields) to match the "Shield" name. Then the Company should have 4 Apocalypse Barrages waiting in Reserves, following the MOO rules.
So don't worry, nobody will call this "unbound cheese".
I like the core concept of the formations but not the implementation. I think guardsman should be having orders all day and generally FRFSRF is the bread and butter of your standard blobs, at least this lets you use solid MSU. its just lacking some oomph to really make it successful, like if they got free HWT or free special weapons, or heck, free grenade launchers or commissars, or something!
Okay, once again, we don't know for sure that it's five "Infantry Squads"(the unit type) but rather just "5 infantry squads".
They have not put up a Formation bundle yet that cannot actually build the Formation it's labeled as.
Additionally, the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon? It says "a minimum of 5 Infantry Squads".
There's no way, currently, to take more than that. So either it's meant to be "units with infantry type" or Cadians are going to be able to take MORE than 5 Infantry Squads per Platoon.
Also? If Heavy Weapons Squads count for Infantry Squads, then "Fire and Advance" is going to be amazing. Move your HWS around, Order them and they fire as though they didn't move.
Looking at the last inventory I took, it appears my protest is moot - I couldn't field a legal ES Infantry Company as Core it even if I wanted to:
1x CCS (5)
2x PCS (5)
9x Infantry Squads (10)
That's a whopping 115 ordinary Guardsmen and I'm still short 1 PCS and 6 Infantry Squads.
The problem? I have too much sexy stuff:
3x Commissar
2x HWS (6)
4x SWS (6)
5x Stormtroopers (5)
25 Gangers & Chancers
I could cobble together a PCS and 2 or 3 squads out of this, but that still leaves me short by at least 3 Infantry Squads. And I'm leaving a huge number of Heavy & Special Weapons behind.
And points wise, it's coming in at something like 1,500+ points, so I might be able squeeze in a single IKT at 1850?
Yeah, this is GW giving the IG a huge "FETH YOU".
I'm not buying this either, still sticking with Codex: Imperial Guard (c)2009.
Kirasu wrote: What a laughable detachment.. If new books are written by a group of authors, why is there such wild disparity in power levels?
How do you get Eldar one month, then Orks.. and then Space Marines with free everything and then IG with useless gak like this?
To be fair these arnt formations from a codex, they are from the Mont'ka scenario thingy
Players here is the scenario:
-Tau guy, your stuff is awesome and you get to kill everyone.
-IG guy, you are going to get a ton of useless troops and sentinels. Your guys are going to die horrible, horrible death. In order for you to do something other than set up and models and promptly remove them, we will lengthen your turns by you having to roll 450 lasgun shots that do absolutely nothing!
Kirasu wrote: What a laughable detachment.. If new books are written by a group of authors, why is there such wild disparity in power levels?
How do you get Eldar one month, then Orks.. and then Space Marines with free everything and then IG with useless gak like this?
To be fair these arnt formations from a codex, they are from the Mont'ka scenario thingy
Even so, it does not bode well for the actual codex release. Cadians *are* the Imperial Guard as far as GW thinks and this is what they believe IG should get? Looks even worse side by side with all the pretty cool things for Tau and Space Marines.
Kanluwen wrote: Additionally, the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon? It says "a minimum of 5 Infantry Squads".
There's no way, currently, to take more than that. So either it's meant to be "units with infantry type" or Cadians are going to be able to take MORE than 5 Infantry Squads per Platoon.
The number of Infantry Squads can't exceed 5, but you can have more than 5 infantry squads in your platoon. You could have 5 Infantry Squads plus a single Special Weapon Squad, or you could have 5 Infantry Squads plus three Heavy Weapon Squads, etc.
There are only two pieces of evidence for the idea that "Infantry Squad" must be a typo and should refer to squads of infantry.
Number 1: GW is claiming that their big box contains enough models for it. GW wouldn't mislead us.
Number 2: Not even GW could think that we have to buy 165 models for a single core formation.
Number 1 relies upon GW's integrity, while number 2 relies upon GW understanding concepts like "balance" and "reasonable pricing".
Kanluwen wrote: Okay, once again, we don't know for sure that it's five "Infantry Squads"(the unit type) but rather just "5 infantry squads".
They have not put up a Formation bundle yet that cannot actually build the Formation it's labeled as.
Additionally, the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon? It says "a minimum of 5 Infantry Squads".
There's no way, currently, to take more than that. So either it's meant to be "units with infantry type" or Cadians are going to be able to take MORE than 5 Infantry Squads per Platoon.
Also? If Heavy Weapons Squads count for Infantry Squads, then "Fire and Advance" is going to be amazing. Move your HWS around, Order them and they fire as though they didn't move.
I'm not sure why you think "Infantry Squads" with capitalized "I" and "S" is anything other than the ones that come as part of the platoon. All of your theory hinges on the word "minimum". Face it, GW writers don't know that platoons can only have five squads! It's no different than why Ravenwing players can only run Sammael in their formation, even though GW generously put in 3 HQ slots.
When the Formation requires a "minimum of 5 Infantry Squads," the obvious reading is that 5 basic "Infantry Squads" are required, and that one cannot use HWS / SWS / Conscripts to fulfill that requirement.
The "minimum" wording is correct, as one can add +5 HWS, +3 SWS and Conscripts to the Platoon after the minimum 5 Infantry Squads are taken.
Had it been written as "squads of type infantry", that would make no sense, as *all* of the squads are infantry - there are no squads of Swarms, Cavalry or Monstrous Creatures available in the Infantry Platoon. So the "infantry" qualifier is redundant, and it would have just said "minimum of 5 squads".
I don't know why anyone is arguing the point. The RAW is very clear, as is the Intent. The only issue being that the web store is selling a slightly different package, but that's GW for you.
That's an Infantry Platoon as described by Codex: Astra Militarum.
Which is an auxiliary choice in the Cadian Detachment.
I don't know why anyone is arguing the point. The RAW is very clear, as is the Intent. The only issue being that the web store is selling a slightly different package, but that's GW for you.
Have you paid ANY attention to the past year or two of releases?
They have not once done that with any "bundled" formations which specifically state that "This builds the formation". People point at the Wind Riders Battlehost box, but guess what?
That doesn't say at all that it can form the Wind Rider formation.
I'm not sure why you think "Infantry Squads" with capitalized "I" and "S" is anything other than the ones that come as part of the platoon. All of your theory hinges on the word "minimum". Face it, GW writers don't know that platoons can only have five squads!
Yeeeah...except in any other instance where they refer to the "maximum" allowable stuff? They actually say "You must take X" and refer to the maximum.
It's no different than why Ravenwing players can only run Sammael in their formation, even though GW generously put in 3 HQ slots.
We all know that's because they didn't make bikes confer the "Ravenwing" tag.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not terribly impressed by the new formations, They're a whole lot more conditional and situational than the Necron/SM/Eldar ones, and a lot of them are reliant on getting Orders off (usually on Ld8) for anything to work, something other formations from earlier 2015 armies don't have to deal with for equivalent bonuses.
I'm still far more interested in points costs and rules changes than the formations however, as I just fundamentally have problems with the inherent concept as GW has done them.
If Tau is any indication they won't be getting any. GW's new MO seems to be to just offer up new formations while leaving the points costs and individual units' rules as-is.
That's what I'm worried about, because formations are not going to fix IG
If these formations are all they can offer, then I'm done with IG.
Yeah, I've reached the same conclusion.
Me as well most probably. If they're just going to recycle a phoned-in book with some formations sprinkled on top, and address none of the underlying functionality issues, which, at least from the look of the formations, appears to likely be the case, then I don't see why I'd bother to continue with anything....
I dont know what people are complaining about, there are some legitamatly good parts of this book for IG, yeah, the decurion is GREAT, but the formations are indeed bonkers.
vipoid wrote: If these formations are all they can offer, then I'm done with IG.
Yeah, I've reached the same conclusion.
Me as well most probably. If they're just going to recycle a phoned-in book with some formations sprinkled on top, and address none of the underlying functionality issues, which, at least from the look of the formations, appears to likely be the case, then I don't see why I'd bother to continue with anything....
The general malaise and sense of neglect is largely why I've been struggling to keep interest in finishing my Shadowsword conversion.
Of course, with the infantry 90% assembled & basecoated, it's not like it makes sense to sell it off. But the small amount of stuff that's still unbuilt? Yeah, I could probably do without most of it.
But then, once I sell it, it'll probably be good, and then I'd want to buy it back...
Kirasu wrote: What a laughable detachment.. If new books are written by a group of authors, why is there such wild disparity in power levels?
How do you get Eldar one month, then Orks.. and then Space Marines with free everything and then IG with useless gak like this?
I feel like its different authors have different ideas on "balance" and it results in certain factions being bonkers OP while others are designed to be moderate or weak in areas. Either that or a select few factions have some major fanboys in charge who are too short sighted to understand that good rules are far better than OP gak that strokes their fanboy ego. The most telling thing is the lack of oversight to keep things relatively consistent and within perspective of the game at whole.
the_Armyman wrote: Face it, GW writers don't know that platoons can only have five squads! It's no different than why Ravenwing players can only run Sammael in their formation, even though GW generously put in 3 HQ slots.
Its kinda like the "Command Override" for the Skyray formation saying a Skyray near the command devilfish can fire any number of its remaining seeker missiles. In 7th edition I know of no limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire which makes the rule useless.
They are writing it from the perspective of the background not a set of gaming rules. They probably use the same weak justifications faction fanboys use "In the fluff..."
hotsauceman1 wrote: I dont know what people are complaining about, there are some legitamatly good parts of this book for IG, yeah, the decurion is GREAT, but the formations are indeed bonkers.
Mainly because the formations seem far more conditional and situational than many of their counterparts, particularly in say, Codex SM, Necrons & Eldar, or generally just less useful.
"gee, forcing a morale test on 4d6 is cool..." until you realize that you need to fire the main guns of three superheavy tanks at a target to force it (and, ideally, if you've put *that* much firepower into something, it hopefully won't have anything meaningful left), and that half the units in the game are going to ignore it either way
The artillery one is another great example. Yay they get a formation benefit...except it's just allowing a CCS to issue an order to them...on Ld8, instead of just getting the benefit like everyone else's tank formations.
More to the point however, it doesn't look like there's much or any indication of changes to any of the units where they really need it. If things like Hellhounds are still on par with Leman Russ tanks and Fire Prisms for cost, and HWS's are still T3 W2 Ld7 units for 15ppm per team before any guns are added, then they're still going to be crap.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I dont know what people are complaining about, there are some legitamatly good parts of this book for IG, yeah, the decurion is GREAT, but the formations are indeed bonkers.
Mainly because the formations seem far more conditional and situational than many of their counterparts, particularly in say, Codex SM, Necrons & Eldar, or generally just less useful.
"gee, forcing a morale test on 4d6 is cool..." until you realize that you need to fire the main guns of three superheavy tanks at a target to force it (and, ideally, if you've put *that* much firepower into something, it hopefully won't have anything meaningful left), and that half the units in the game are going to ignore it either way
The artillery one is another great example. Yay they get a formation benefit...except it's just allowing a CCS to issue an order to them...on Ld8, instead of just getting the benefit like everyone else's tank formations.
you do realize that the new special Cane allows orders to be passed on anything but a double 6 right?
hotsauceman1 wrote: I dont know what people are complaining about, there are some legitamatly good parts of this book for IG, yeah, the decurion is GREAT, but the formations are indeed bonkers.
Mainly because the formations seem far more conditional and situational than many of their counterparts, particularly in say, Codex SM, Necrons & Eldar, or generally just less useful.
"gee, forcing a morale test on 4d6 is cool..." until you realize that you need to fire the main guns of three superheavy tanks at a target to force it (and, ideally, if you've put *that* much firepower into something, it hopefully won't have anything meaningful left), and that half the units in the game are going to ignore it either way
The artillery one is another great example. Yay they get a formation benefit...except it's just allowing a CCS to issue an order to them...on Ld8, instead of just getting the benefit like everyone else's tank formations.
you do realize that the new special Cane allows orders to be passed on anything but a double 6 right?
See that, Vaktathi? The new special Cane is the key to these formations. Ugh, you're so dumb, V
hotsauceman1, you have fun playing your formation that requires 185 infantry models and 3 sentinels that costs something in the neighborhood of 1000 points before you make a single weapon or wargear purchase. All to get access to a larger command bubble and some extra orders on all those lasguns.
Most of us aren't looking for game-breaking changes, just a few that make sense and allow us to play a relatively normal game with our existing models. These formations fall short of those modest expectations, so some of us are disappointed.
hotsauceman1 wrote: you do realize you dont have to take the emporers sheild right? you could, IDK, take the Armoured company one?
Man, some people are pessimists
Because I don't have a desire to take a minimum of 5 tanks plus 120 points of Enginseers in one of my lists. That's the sort of thing that irritates IG players when we see these rules. They require us to jump through hoops and BAI MOAR NAO!! for formation benefits that other armies get handed out for free by building desirable units and/or combinations of units. THREE tank squadrons? Really? Enginseers? Really? Just by sheer coincidence, we have this new plastic Enginseer and tank bundle on our online store...
It just gets tiresome after awhile. It's so hamfisted and sloppy, and it speaks volumes about the level of talent they have in Nottingham these days.
I would piss and moan some more about this release and how it bodes extremely badly for the IG looking ahead, but everyone else has already done it quite well for me. Jolly good.
I almost just want to pull my 5th ed codex back out.
Man, I started in fifth ed, and in 6th edition the 5th ed book was pretty good for awhile. When the 6th ed book came out right before 7th edition it wasn't bad either, new toys, pask buffs, and then 7th ed happened... And everyone else besides us, Orks, Deldar, and Chaos started getting these pristine codexes with awesome formations... made me really jealous. Then this happens.
Is this what it felt like to be a Dark Angels player back in the day? I heard they had it pretty rough before 7th ed.
ultimentra wrote: I would piss and moan some more about this release and how it bodes extremely badly for the IG looking ahead, but everyone else has already done it quite well for me. Jolly good.
I almost just want to pull my 5th ed codex back out.
Man, I started in fifth ed, and in 6th edition the 5th ed book was pretty good for awhile. When the 6th ed book came out right before 7th edition it wasn't bad either, new toys, pask buffs, and then 7th ed happened... And everyone else besides us, Orks, Deldar, and Chaos started getting these pristine codexes with awesome formations... made me really jealous. Then this happens.
Is this what it felt like to be a Dark Angels player back in the day? I heard they had it pretty rough before 7th ed.
Such is the wheel of fortune in GW, it's fracking frustrating to see them constantly change their design paradigms halfway through constantly rather than sticking to one for everyone for a single edition. The only thing I like about AoS is that they actually have everyone's rules out at the same time and short of some outliers, they all have roughly the same design basis.
or use a gogle translation for the the last sentences on the page. Mont'Ka does come with nine 
