There is quite a large amount of new stuff for Chaos Daemons coming next week (preorder on Feb 6 2016) so a separate thread would help discussing these

Update:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Pics by Captain Citadel - SpikeyBits forum

Warhams-77 wrote:
A bit more info about the book - via Scanner on the Spikeybits forum

 Warboss85 wrote:
Hi Guys,

I hold the WD in hands, I dont know if someone mentioned the daemon rules that are included in this campaign set.

So they will get 10 new formations, 6 Datasheets for units, Warlord traits, Psychic powers(along new datacards) and relics

To see in the white dwarf are 2 Khorne Formations in a very little picture so I just can estimate what the rules are.

1. Murderhorde:

1 Skulltaker or Herald of Khorne
and 6? of the following - Bloodletters of khorne, Flesh hounds of khorne or Bloodcrushers
Formation have 2 special rules but its too small even under photo shop zoom. Something that effects in 12" range, I would guess no scatter via deep strike.

2. Gorethunder Battery

1 Herald and 3 Skull Cannons. Herald can be upgraded with skull throne or juggernaut.
3 Special rules. First is Warbringer of Khorne (no explaining text)
The Cannons get an upgraded weapon profile same as before but with an apocalyptic blast when they shoot together.
And a third rule that is absolutely not readable for me.

Hope this is new information for you guys

In the WD are the Weapon profiles and special wulfen rule table included are you guys interested in pictures of that?

Pics: http://imgur.com/a/FXbTp

Sure would be nice if GW surprised us and part two of the campaign was suddenly Tzeentchian Daemonkin w/plastic 1KSons and 1KSons Termies.

Sad Panda said 1KSons in plastic would come much later in 2016, so does a plastic Lord of Change (if the kit is not a 2017 release)

Maybe a printed Codex: Inquisition? Montka brought a printed Codex: Assassins

There could also be an update to Champions of Fenris in a second campaign part

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure would be nice if GW surprised us and part two of the campaign was suddenly Tzeentchian Daemonkin w/plastic 1KSons and 1KSons Termies.

It absolutely astounds me that they haven't done a new 1ksons range, especially after the last batch of amazing fantasy Egyptian undead models. All they have to do is give them decent rules and people would buy them, as well as the guys that just love the modelling and painting, not to mention the conversion potential.

On a similar note, I cannot for the life of me understand why they haven't done a supplement and upgrade sure for deathwatch though as well (yet anyway). Would sell by the buckets.

Wulfen are cool and all (not the new models mind) but are they as big for saleability as either of the two above? Not by a long shot.

Hey guys, I heard you like Khorne. So lets forget ANY OTHER type of Chaos exists!

My guess is that they are going to rerelease Grey Knights alongside a campaign against Tzeentch and the Thousand Sons. Seems halfway appropriate. Though you would think the 13th Great Company, who left to chase the Thousand Sons, would be the ones fighting the Thousand Sons. Nevermind the fact that in addition to the Tyranids bearing down on the Blood Angels, a whole host of Daemons is as well. Chaos Daemons v. Blood Angels would have been much more appropriate.

Man, GW, I really wish I could understand you sometimes.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure would be nice if GW surprised us and part two of the campaign was suddenly Tzeentchian Daemonkin w/plastic 1KSons and 1KSons Termies.

It absolutely astounds me that they haven't done a new 1ksons range, especially after the last batch of amazing fantasy Egyptian undead models. All they have to do is give them decent rules and people would buy them, as well as the guys that just love the modelling and painting, not to mention the conversion potential.

On a similar note, I cannot for the life of me understand why they haven't done a supplement and upgrade sure for deathwatch though as well (yet anyway). Would sell by the buckets.

Wulfen are cool and all (not the new models mind) but are they as big for saleability as either of the two above? Not by a long shot.

they did the new necron are emo egyptians. Add shoulder pads and your good to go.

GW won't do TSs now. The Wulfen killed them all and gave Magnus a spanking, that's why they came back

It's all Khorne now because he's angry that Tzeentch lost his favourite toys

GW sure is stuck on Khorne.. Obviously it makes sense that Khorne fight against the SW instead of Thousand Sons, really?

In other news.. Gorethunder Battery?? Maybe it's best they not do tzeentch!

I can't wait until we hear rumor about a Lord of Change we can believe in.

I really hope that we finally get proper Psychic lores for each of the Gods, instead of being the only army who still has a crappy half lore which in Tzeentch case, doesn't even work as intended anymore!
Hopefully Tzeentch also gets some nice Psychic phase bonuses, as half of the Daemon of Tzeentch rule also no longer works due to how 7th changed up the casting of Psychic powers.

Some new relics would be ace, let's just hope that GW doesn't suddenly do away with out current batch of Hellforged Artifacts, because all of them are really fun to use! While there's of course the obvious abuses of the Grimoire, (that only takes roughly 800pts investment to break the item btw), we don't deserve to lose out on things like an Eternal Beatstick Chickens, or being able to watch half a unit of characters such as Seer Councils suddenly start drooling to the Doomstone!

With 10 formations coming, my guess would be that each God will get at worst 2 specific formations, and then likely at least 1 'Tetragon of Ultimate Darkness' formation which combines units of all the Gods... (mind you, that could also be the name for our Decurion?!)

Fingers crossed that while we're definitely getting "the Guard treatment", that we at least get something more workable & fun than what those poor Guard players got stuck with.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
I can't wait until we hear rumor about a Lord of Change we can believe in.

THIS is exactly how I should've started out my day. Laughing and choking on my yogurt. Kudos!

I really hope that we finally get proper Psychic lores for each of the Gods, instead of being the only army who still has a crappy half lore which in Tzeentch case, doesn't even work as intended anymore!
Hopefully Tzeentch also gets some nice Psychic phase bonuses, as half of the Daemon of Tzeentch rule also no longer works due to how 7th changed up the casting of Psychic powers.

should be 7 psychic powers for each of the three lores

Kinda pissed that Khorne formations were the only ones that they previewed, but I guess he is their favorite.

Guard did get a bit shafted with their update, but remember that Raven Guard and White Scars also got the "campaign treatment" and received some really nice things, like the most broken WS relic ever and RG having batgak insane Alpha Strike.

Requizen wrote:
Kinda pissed that Khorne formations were the only ones that they previewed, but I guess he is their favorite.

Guard did get a bit shafted with their update, but remember that Raven Guard and White Scars also got the "campaign treatment" and received some really nice things, like the most broken WS relic ever and RG having batgak insane Alpha Strike.

you do realise that the WS relic is literally the same thing as the Helm of Durfast, a Space Wolf relic for over a year and a half ago, right?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Kinda pissed that Khorne formations were the only ones that they previewed, but I guess he is their favorite.

Guard did get a bit shafted with their update, but remember that Raven Guard and White Scars also got the "campaign treatment" and received some really nice things, like the most broken WS relic ever and RG having batgak insane Alpha Strike.

you do realise that the WS relic is literally the same thing as the Helm of Durfast, a Space Wolf relic for over a year and a half ago, right?

Yeah, except Space Wolves don't have Grav for Bikestar or Centstar, which is what makes it fairly broken.

21 Psikraftkarten I'm guessing is a confirmation of full psychic lore.

So pumped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the khorne formation says you can benefit from multiple loci if you're within 12" of the units that have the loci.

Somebody better let Murderfang know he's not in the Murderhorde formation...

Can anyone make out the weapon profile on the Gorethunder Battery? Is it the same S/AP but just a larger blast, or does it get upgraded?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Somebody better let Murderfang know he's not in the Murderhorde formation...

Murderfang is probably murdermad that he didn't receive his murdermembership card.

Str8 ap4 apocalyptic blast, ignores cover, dreadskulls.

Used to be ap5. Looks like it might have even been bumped to ap3. Number is fuzzy as hell. If it is ap3, that's awesome, but still costs 375 pts to run 3 of those.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Somebody better let Murderfang know he's not in the Murderhorde formation...

Murderfang is probably murdermad that he didn't receive his murdermembership card.

That is Murderific

Anyone else sick of Khorne?

Gamers: "Hey GW, what's for breakfast?"
GW: "Khorne Flakes"
Gamers: "Cool, what about lunch?"
GW: "Khorne Dogs."
Gamers: "OK...what about dinner?"
GW: "Khorne meal with a side of Khorne bread and Khorne on the cobb."
Gamers: "Whoa, I think I've have enough Khorne"

GW: "Well the next campaign is Space Wolves vs Daemons, so....FROSTED Khorne Flakes!!!!!"
Gamers: "Sigh."

--

Well if the thousand sons are in the summer, and the LOC is at the end of the year, then if any tzeentch oriented campaign does come out we have no idea when. GW is cleary spreading this stuff out. Why not have the LoC come out for an AoS release and then right after that do the rubrics with a tzeentch campaign? Of course that's my opinion. I could be wrong. They may release a tzeentch campaign with the thousand sons they could release it for 40k after Wulfen. Noone here knows.

Murderhorde

I'm way too sober to find that compelling...

It's kinda par for the course when you think about KDK. Gorepack, Slaughercult, Bloodstorm - they're all kinda like that.


Can't wait for the other gods. I do wonder if they'll have two per god. Nurgle doesn't really have that many unique units, only 6. 2 are HQs, one is the Beasts, which are old and kinda forgotten about, and I'd be surprised if GW put them in a formation. So, it probably will be one with a HoNurgle and Plaguebearers, and one with Plague Drones and maybe some other tertiary thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure would be nice if GW surprised us and part two of the campaign was suddenly Tzeentchian Daemonkin w/plastic 1KSons and 1KSons Termies.

rumored:

summer

Warzone fenris: Part 2

thousand suns plastic marine release, only chaos marine release until next year

 Atia wrote:

I really hope that we finally get proper Psychic lores for each of the Gods, instead of being the only army who still has a crappy half lore which in Tzeentch case, doesn't even work as intended anymore!
Hopefully Tzeentch also gets some nice Psychic phase bonuses, as half of the Daemon of Tzeentch rule also no longer works due to how 7th changed up the casting of Psychic powers.

should be 7 psychic powers for each of the three lores

About bloody time!
Now let's just hope that poor Tzeentch gets fixed up so that Horrors w/Tzheralds can actually function as intended...

I really hope that GW has simply 40k'ified the old Fantasy Tzeentch magic lore. Mostly shooting based, but add in the likes of Treason of Tzeentch as a reverse Ld Malediction, which would combo fantastically with the likes of Slaanesh and/or Telepathy!
Flickering Fire really needs help big time, as it's far too much investment for a relatively poor payoff, and the currently crippling Warpflame effect combined with 7th ed preventing the Tzherald and his Horror unit from each even attempting the power... (despite the fact that the most expensive Loci ability is built entirely upon boosting Tzeentch's psychic shooting!)

Tzeentch Daemons also badly need a boost to their casting abilities, as currently, the only thing that makes them 'better' than the other Gods is that Tzheralds can take Lv3. But then you're stuck with the outright worst of the God specific lores!

I am super pumped if there are different powers for each god!

Really kind of hoping the Nurgle one goes more for buffs than witchfires. I always thought Tzeentch should be shooty and the others should be more suited to the deity. I mean, sure, some Poison stuff, but maybe some sort of Toughness+ Blessing too, or something for Slaanesh to make them even faster than they already are.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I am super pumped if there are different powers for each god!

21 psychic cards, so each God is finally getting a full Lore of 6 spells + Primaris.

Let's just hope that GW is at least smart enough to fix poor Tzeentch and give us the ability to multi-use our basic shooting power, especially if we have to keep the Warpflame rule!

There are. It's confirmed.

Atia, I am guessing Tz powers can be used by Tz Daemons outside of the campaign book, since there are cards?

Can 40k Thousand Sons use those powers?

I will laugh so hard when it turns out to be just the CSM and Chaos Daemon powers combined into a single discipline for each god.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I will laugh so hard when it turns out to be just the CSM and Chaos Daemon powers combined into a single discipline for each god.

You're right of course... We should expect the absolute worst possible things possible. It's the safest thing to do as a Chaos player, (Chaos is the first step on the road to disapointment), and GW hasn't given us any reason to expect much from them for the past decade!

Here's to betting that the 4 Daemon Prince formation requires a Prince of each God, they all have to take wings, and their 'bonus' perk is that they get to take a random DI test at the beginning of each player turn because of course, Chaos followers can't play nice for just 5 minutes!

I mean, surely a person can translate the German on the one Tzeentch card that is shown thus far..

 Brometheus wrote:
I mean, surely a person can translate the German on the one Tzeentch card that is shown thus far..

Impossible! Nobody knows German! Nobody!

Hey Yabbaddabbaddon, stop making sense.

Seriously, though. I can't wait for more info but I very much doubt Thousand Sons are this Summer. Sad Panda mentioned waiting a long time for that sort of stuff.. (Paraphrasing him, not quoting). If you creep on his profile you can see the recent posts where he mentioned this in response to me

The white dwarf chaos bit says it comes with 21 psikenkarten or something. That means there's full 7 for the casting gods. Also, you can make out a number at the beginning of the psychic power names on the psychic card picture that's been leaked and it's a single number, not a 1-2 or 3-4. There's a full 7 per god.

Wow, I totally Derped on reading your post, abadabadoobadon. I missed the each god part. Thought you were saying you expected only one table overall.

I'll laugh (and then cry mightily) if;
1. The new Tzeentch lore is almost entirely based around random Witchfire powers which still have to deal with the Warpflame rule.
2. Tzeentch gets a formation that combines Tzheralds + Horrors with a bonus that allows them to harness WC's for Witchfire powers on a 2+.

Good thing 7th doesn't allow us to even attempt the same Witchfire power more than once within the same squad!


I guess the only worse possible formation Tzeentch could get would be one that requires say a full unit of 9 Flamers that get to combine their shooting into just a single template that always wounds on a 4+ and ignores armour saves?!

Well on the psychic card picture you can see what looks like the long text of the warp flame rule on the bottom, and the rule starts with a W so... it's there. Might be different though, but I doubt it.

A harnessing warp charge boost would be so, so nice. It's sorely needed.

Well it is 2am in Germany, but I cannot sleep, so why not answer this before trying it again?!

First, here is a better scan of the page - from 40kings.de



Both spells shown are (Edit rules changed a bit though) those from Codex CD, with one exception. They were 1-2 on a die roll. Now they are only 1.

And the WD page says 'these 7 spells are from three disciplines: Excess, Change and Plague'. So these disciplines are named as in the CD book, but unlike the CSM ones. There is also nothing saying otherwise on any of the White Dwarf pages, and no mentioning of CSM at all.

After reading all pages thoroughly I'm 100% sure the expansion is for Chaos Daemons only - but there is stuff for four deities nonetheless.

And GW has most likely added 3 spells to each discipline - usable with Codex: CD

I hope that helps

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I will laugh so hard when it turns out to be just the CSM and Chaos Daemon powers combined into a single discipline for each god.

LOL.... That would be something. What exactly would those Slaaneshi daemon who have no sonic weapons do with Symphony of pain? The greater tragedy is that they actually make the Lores good and we're still limited to taking only half our powers from the god specific lore. Cause GW... But maybe just maybe they'll get it right, maybe even give CSM access to a new buffed god lore.


Son-of-a..... The same weak powers from before...sigh.....

Edit: They added 'up to a minimum of 1' to Acqueiscence

It's just frustrating is all. For Slaanesh the only one worthwhile power was Acquiescence and it isn't the primaris, so skip. If the just added 3 new powers they'd have to be amazing for me to not roll everything on Telepathy. I don't think anyone that cares about Tzeentch will be happy about half their "new" lore being the same bad powers as before. It like being a Cubs fan...maybe next year, or the one after that...sigh.

I re-read everything, and added the stats to my last post

I thought that was tzeentch ' s firestorm in the picture, not flickering fire. In which case it's the same as it was before, and worse than the current iteration of flickering fire. In my opinion it's almost utterly useless.

I'm not German, but it says "tzeentch's feuerstorm".

Experiment 626 wrote:

I really hope that GW has simply 40k'ified the old Fantasy Tzeentch magic lore. Mostly shooting based, but add in the likes of Treason of Tzeentch as a reverse Ld Malediction, which would combo fantastically with the likes of Slaanesh and/or Telepathy!
Flickering Fire really needs help big time, as it's far too much investment for a relatively poor payoff, and the currently crippling Warpflame effect combined with 7th ed preventing the Tzherald and his Horror unit from each even attempting the power... (despite the fact that the most expensive Loci ability is built entirely upon boosting Tzeentch's psychic shooting!)

Tzeentch Daemons also badly need a boost to their casting abilities, as currently, the only thing that makes them 'better' than the other Gods is that Tzheralds can take Lv3. But then you're stuck with the outright worst of the God specific lores!

Hopefully along with new lores that Daemons get their psykers rebooted completely. Cut out a lot of the psychic batteries- Horrors at ML1 regardless of size, Heralds limited to ML2, maybe Daemon Princes as well. To make Tzeentch the best psyker, instead of +3 to LD which was for the old edition, let tzeentch reroll ones when casting. Let Khorne reroll 1s when attempting to deny.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I thought that was tzeentch ' s firestorm in the picture, not flickering fire. In which case it's the same as it was before, and worse than the current iteration of flickering fire.

Yes, sorry, I need to go to bed, this is Firestorm, no changes, will fix the posts

They only added a clarification to Aqcuiescence

Thanks a lot for that, Warhams-77.

 Sersi wrote:
It's just frustrating is all. For Slaanesh the only one worthwhile power was Acquiescence and it isn't the primaris, so skip. If the just added 3 new powers they'd have to be amazing for me to not roll everything on Telepathy. I don't think anyone that cares about Tzeentch will be happy about half their "new" lore being the same bad powers as before. It like being a Cubs fan...maybe next year, or the one after that...sigh.

Tzeentch badly needs a special rule that allows Tzheralds + their Horror unit to both attempt Flickering Fire at the very least. Alost all of Tzeentch's damage potential is tied directly to the Psychic phase, yet 7th edition's rules have massively knee capped our ability to spam Witchfires.

It's not like it was even broken before or anything, but now I find that I'm struggling in every single game as my ranged damage is now relying almost entirely on Flamers, Screamer fly-bys and Exalted Flamers/Burning Chariots. And those units are always high priority targets.
My poor Horrors are lucky to get more than 2-3 castings of Flickering Fire off in a game, and now all they're doing is handing out FnP because we've lost the ability to focus fire in the Psychic phase.

It's a sad day indeed when my Horror unit is better off launching themselves into assaults with the D6 Strength locus, or else being relegated to "hide in the bushes and summon help".

Flicker fire should be a straight up shooting attack that produces a counter that takes away the amount of "shots dice" you use to determine your shots from your warp charge.

so flicker fire would be a shooting attack with rules something like

Assault X, Warp fuelled

Warp fuelled
For each shot fired with this weapon reduce the number of warp dice available by 1, you may not fire this weapon if you do not have that many warp dice in the pool

I meant a warp charge for 2d6 shots, 2 warp charge for 3d6 shots, and 3 warp charge for 4 d6 shots. The idea being to keep flicker fire from forcing you to waste so many warp charge to actually shoot the damn thing. In my opinion this is why it fails to be a good power. It also gives you an element of player agency as you can simply choose how many warp charge you're removing from your psychic pool next turn.

Or you could make the player keep warp charge from his psychic phase specifically for flicker fire. Basically I'm saying it needs a way to limit the warp charge you need to cast it now. This method is probably better as it opens the chaos player more to making mistakes with his other powers and perhaps reducing the effectiveness of his plan that turn. Would reward tactics a bit rather than throwing 7 dice and failing, thus losing the dice required for other powers that are almost always more important.

This is definitely off topic though, this is neither a rumour nor news, just wish listing.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I meant a warp charge for 2d6 shots, 2 warp charge for 3d6 shots, and 3 warp charge for 4 d6 shots. The idea being to keep flicker fire from forcing you to waste so many warp charge to actually shoot the damn thing. In my opinion this is why it fails to be a good power. It also gives you an element of player agency as you can simply choose how many warp charge you're removing from your psychic pool next turn.

Or you could make the player keep warp charge from his psychic phase specifically for flicker fire. Basically I'm saying it needs a way to limit the warp charge you need to cast it now. This method is probably better as it opens the chaos player more to making mistakes with his other powers and perhaps reducing the effectiveness of his plan that turn. Would reward tactics a bit rather than throwing 7 dice and failing, thus losing the dice required for other powers that are almost always more important.

This is definitely off topic though, this is neither a rumour nor news, just wish listing.

I honestly haven't even attempted the 3WC/4D6 shot version in nearly two years now... There's just too many other spells I need to go off, and there's no way in hell I'd ever spend the 7-8 WC's and then watch the spell fizzle out and give me a pathetic 5-6 shots! (of which only 2/3rd's ever hit, since we can only cast Flickering Fire with Tzheralds now that Horrors have been so massively nerfed into the ground)

I really want a good reason to return my army back to it's Pink Horror based roots - especially since my Tzeentch army have fully modeled bases littered with dead Space Puppies! (the only good kind of SW imho! )
However, these initial rumors are leaving me with little reason or hope to think that GW is going to address any of the huge issues Tzeentch Daemons currently face.

If anything, the only reason we're featuring at all in the campaign is to act as the comedic punching bag for the SW's to effortlessly rip to tiny shreds, since that's the only thing Chaos in general seems good for these days.

Flickering Fire should be WC1, D6 shots base plus an additional D6 shots for each successfully harnessed WC dice used in manifesting it.

But knowing GW, they probably already think it works that way and so will just reprint the existing rules unaltered.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Flickering Fire should be WC1, D6 shots base plus an additional D6 shots for each successfully harnessed WC dice used in manifesting it.

But knowing GW, they probably already think it works that way and so will just reprint the existing rules unaltered.

Nah, knowing GW they'll probably re-word it so that each additional harnessed WC grants -1 shot instead!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Flickering Fire should be WC1, D6 shots base plus an additional D6 shots for each successfully harnessed WC dice used in manifesting it.

But knowing GW, they probably already think it works that way and so will just reprint the existing rules unaltered.

Nah, knowing GW they'll probably re-word it so that each additional harnessed WC grants -1 shot instead!

They'd never do something so patently absurd! Additional harnessed WC will just cause an additional D6 hits to the shooting unit.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Flickering Fire should be WC1, D6 shots base plus an additional D6 shots for each successfully harnessed WC dice used in manifesting it.

But knowing GW, they probably already think it works that way and so will just reprint the existing rules unaltered.

Nah, knowing GW they'll probably re-word it so that each additional harnessed WC grants -1 shot instead!

They'd never do something so patently absurd! Additional harnessed WC will just cause an additional D6 hits to the shooting unit.

Brilliant!

Though you forgot to add that these additional hits to the shooting unit get to ignore the effects of Warpflame, just to ensure there's no build-up of FnP, because that just wouldn't be fair, am I right?!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Flickering Fire should be WC1, D6 shots base plus an additional D6 shots for each successfully harnessed WC dice used in manifesting it.

But knowing GW, they probably already think it works that way and so will just reprint the existing rules unaltered.

Nah, knowing GW they'll probably re-word it so that each additional harnessed WC grants -1 shot instead!

They'd never do something so patently absurd! Additional harnessed WC will just cause an additional D6 hits to the shooting unit.

Brilliant!

Though you forgot to add that these additional hits to the shooting unit get to ignore the effects of Warpflame, just to ensure there's no build-up of FnP, because that just wouldn't be fair, am I right?!

Actually it causes Feel Your Pain which is the opposite of Feel No Pain. For every unsaved wound caused by a unit with Feel Your Pain roll a D6. On a 5+ the unit suffers a wound with no saves of any kind allowed.

English WD photos - via Spikeybits (quoted over from another thread)

Of course picture is blurry as hell.

Also who would even think of taking a formation with 4 Princes? That's like more than half your army, would really need good rules to be worthwhile.

Requizen wrote:
Of course picture is blurry as hell.

Also who would even think of taking a formation with 4 Princes? That's like more than half your army, would really need good rules to be worthwhile.

And it's likely to be a prince of each god as well..

I'll take it if the bonus is worth it, as I'm sure is the case for almost any formation.

I play larger games so it doesn't bother me at all, I'm looking forward to seeing all the formations, and getting some big games in if the decurion style detachment is good.

1850 is just a standard, those dp's don't have to be half your army, just bring more points if you wanna run the formation. In any case, I don't expect gw to make formations that fit perfectly into a standard amount of points. It caps the size of games you cater to as a company and therefore caps the content you can reasonably sell gamers. A push towards bigger games with these formations is, in my opinion, both smart in a business sense and actively happening.

Oh sure, if they make all upgrades on the Princes free and what not it'll be great, but it'll have to be really good to make it worth.

Bigger isn't better imo. It's just more to keep track of and makes the power creep really visible in stuff like LoWs.

I agree, I'm just saying that perhaps gw either has no idea 1850 is a standard in the community or doesn't care and would rather push for more sales than cater to gamers who adhere to the standard and don't play larger games.

All upgrades on princes for free would be wayy insane. You can fit 12 fully upgraded dp's in a 1850 list with 230 pts left over. I think people might be upset about that haha. I know I would run 8 with support elements if that was the command benefit. My group would get tired of it quickly though I'm sure.

The dp may not be Uber powerful right now, but it's not far away from being great, at least in the CD codex. I feel like a command benefit or two could breathe life into them quite well. I feel like if the upgrades were free, you would suddenly see 4 dp's in most daemon armies, it would only be 540 pts.

I think some of the upgrades should be free though. But it'll probably be something silly like a 4++ and -1 to fear tests.

If they allow them to join eachother, it will be taken for the buffability. 4 invisible endurance princes for the price of 1? Yes please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The blurb in the wd says "4 daemon princes who go to war against the space wolves in the story" perhaps they themselves are unique individual princes that get different rules entirely.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I agree, I'm just saying that perhaps gw either has no idea 1850 is a standard in the community or doesn't care and would rather push for more sales than cater to gamers who adhere to the standard and don't play larger games.

All upgrades on princes for free would be wayy insane. You can fit 12 fully upgraded dp's in a 1850 list with 230 pts left over. I think people might be upset about that haha. I know I would run 8 with support elements if that was the command benefit. My group would get tired of it quickly though I'm sure.

The dp may not be Uber powerful right now, but it's not far away from being great, at least in the CD codex. I feel like a command benefit or two could breathe life into them quite well. I feel like if the upgrades were free, you would suddenly see 4 dp's in most daemon armies, it would only be 540 pts.

I think some of the upgrades should be free though. But it'll probably be something silly like a 4++ and -1 to fear tests.

If they allow them to join eachother, it will be taken for the buffability. 4 invisible endurance princes for the price of 1? Yes please.

I'm sorry but this is simply plain out wrong... Even going for Daemon of Khorne, with Wings + Armour + 50pts of Gifts, a Prince is clocking in at 270pts - 12 of those is over 3200pts!
Simply put, the Daemon Prince is currently as criminally over costed as the Wraithknight is criminally under costed... No one in the game is afraid of a T5/W4 platform that will easily be running 230+pts in order to be even remotely usable.

A Daemon Prince formation would literally have to give you "free Psyker Mastery levels & Gifts" in order to just make them viable. Sadly, what we're probably going to get is something utterly stupid such as "Must take 1 Prince per God & re-roll DI Tests."

Princes of all stripes will continue to be utter garbage until GW wakes up and realises that 145pts base is easily about 50pts minimum too much for such a flimsy platform... Hell, god damned Chapter Masters are beefier nowadays than an immortal champion who's attained the ultimate reward Chaos has to offer! A freaking snot-nosed mortal routinely spanks a supposed demi-god.


Judging by the scans, it's confirmed that the new Daemon lores are simply the same 4 asstastic powers from the codex + 3 new powers... Tzeentch's Firestorm is easily the most useless power in the entire game, (and that's saying something!), and yet, no changes to help make it not 1000% suck.

Suffice it to say, there's nothing shown so far that leads me to feel like we should be getting our hopes up. While granted the worst that can happen is that this "update" offers us nothing really and thus, we stay relatively the same, it also means that we're still likely a long ways off from having any of our glaring issues actually looked at and potentially resolved.

What is wrong about my post? I was saying if a fully upgraded daemon prince got all its upgrades for free, the leaves it at its base cost of 135. 4 of those is 540. I personally think that's a bit OP. You're essentially saving 800+ points because of it. I agree that they're over costed now, quite badly. They die far too easy and pay wayy too many points for the privilege.

12 fully upgraded dp's that didn't have to pay for their upgrades would be 1620 pts.

Your opinion of their power may be different than mine, but I don't see what I said that was "just plain wrong". I get work out of them but I won't fool myself into thinking they're an incredibly powerful unit.

Perhaps I was wrong about their base cost.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
What is wrong about my post? I was saying if a fully upgraded daemon prince got all its upgrades for free, the leaves it at its base cost of 135. 4 of those is 540. I personally think that's a bit OP. You're essentially saving 800+ points because of it. I agree that they're over costed now, quite badly. They die far too easy and pay wayy too many points for the privilege.

12 fully upgraded dp's that didn't have to pay for their upgrades would be 1620 pts.

Your opinion of their power may be different than mine, but I don't see what I said that was "just plain wrong"

My bad. I took it as currently 12 fully upgraded DP's = less than 1850. (stupid sleep deprived brain!)

Still, even with everything free it would just shift the Prince into finally usable territory. It's really quite amazing how much stuff out there simply demolishes him with relatively little effort... But then, imho, every single one of our MC's needs a serious overhaul! (ie: a LoC is a better beatstick than a freaking muscle-on-muscle rage-child Bloodthirster, simply because he can go all kung fu with his stick)

And the Ad Mech War Convocation has set this presidence, right?

Not unheard of and if they want to sell those $75 daemon prince models, the rules should be great!

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
And the Ad Mech War Convocation has set this presidence, right?

Not unheard of and if they want to sell those $75 daemon prince models, the rules should be great!

War Convo and Battle Company are the big offenders. I think some Eldar formations get some free stuff but not as bad (Guardians get some extra guns or the platform? That formation still kinda sucks compared to the Jetbike one).

Ugh two weeks is way too long to wait. Gonna need them rumors and gakky cell phone pictures sooner rather than later

Requizen wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
And the Ad Mech War Convocation has set this presidence, right?

Not unheard of and if they want to sell those $75 daemon prince models, the rules should be great!

War Convo and Battle Company are the big offenders. I think some Eldar formations get some free stuff but not as bad (Guardians get some extra guns or the platform? That formation still kinda sucks compared to the Jetbike one).

Ugh two weeks is way too long to wait. Gonna need them rumors and gakky cell phone pictures sooner rather than later

One obvious & very glaring oversight that hopefully (though almost certainly won't!) get fixed, is to allow Exalted Flamers taken as HQ's to still take 20pts worth of Gifts.

It's really stupid how if he's on his chariot, which NEVER wants to actually be in combat, the Exalt can take 20pts of Gifts. Yet, just on his own, when you ideally want him to potentially mix it up, he suddenly can't get a thing?!

C'mon GW! Even you guys have to realise how completely asinine this situation is!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
What is wrong about my post? I was saying if a fully upgraded daemon prince got all its upgrades for free, the leaves it at its base cost of 135. 4 of those is 540. I personally think that's a bit OP. You're essentially saving 800+ points because of it. I agree that they're over costed now, quite badly. They die far too easy and pay wayy too many points for the privilege.

12 fully upgraded dp's that didn't have to pay for their upgrades would be 1620 pts.

Your opinion of their power may be different than mine, but I don't see what I said that was "just plain wrong". I get work out of them but I won't fool myself into thinking they're an incredibly powerful unit.

Perhaps I was wrong about their base cost.

Daemons princes of 145 pts base. So you'd save 120-135 pts for: the daemon of rules, the 3+ save, wings and rewards to make them semi-survivable. A 120-135 pts discount isn't bad; its fantastic in fact. But I doubt they would allow free psychic mastery levels as well so you'd have to add those costs back in. So, maybe 220-235 pts for the psychic DP's.

Really, new/updated psy powers for Tzeench is worth more than every formation in the book, IMO.
My tzeenchians have been gatherng dust since 7th psy-rules.

Also -I would love to see the end of this campaign having SoB re-lauch come to Fenris and help the desperate SW out!

That would stir things up a bit.

It seems like they really just need to redefine Warpflame. If they update that special rule to not hand out FNP then those powers would be pretty decent.

They'd be good if you didn't have to blow a bunch of your Warp Pool on them instead of important things like Malefic, Invis, or the like. Psychic is supposed to be our shooting, but because it now shares a resource with all of the utility as well, it doesn't get used (or when it does, it's only one or two shots).

We need more incentive to use the dice instead of doing things. Making the powers better is a start, but it would be better to say things like "return Warp Charge per wound caused" or "can be cast on a 2+ no matter what", so we don't have to devote a precious amount of dice for a chance to get a power off.

As it stands, Witchfires are the worst power to get off. You have to roll for it (like all powers), but then deny (which, unlike Blessings or Summoning, they can get bonuses on), and then roll to hit (which we were never super good at) and save.

Witchfires got worse overall in this edition, and the fact that we got Summoning to blow our dice on instead basically means they're worthless unless you really need to kill that last Marine or have some extra WC left over.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Judging by the scans, it's confirmed that the new Daemon lores are simply the same 4 asstastic powers from the codex + 3 new powers... Tzeentch's Firestorm is easily the most useless power in the entire game, (and that's saying something!), and yet, no changes to help make it not 1000% suck.

Suffice it to say, there's nothing shown so far that leads me to feel like we should be getting our hopes up. While granted the worst that can happen is that this "update" offers us nothing really and thus, we stay relatively the same, it also means that we're still likely a long ways off from having any of our glaring issues actually looked at and potentially resolved.

Given that the existing powers all suck. The three new powers in each would have to be broken to balance the lore and make it worth rolling. They also have to switch the primaris powers to something actually useful as well. I mean the but the old 4th ed Pavane or Lash into the Excess lore and I still probably wouldn't roll the table. I'd Say the Psychic powers are the low hanging fruit since we have access to good main rule book lores anyway.

The real meat is in the Formation rules and bonuses, relics, and warlord traits. What I'd really like would either be access to Hit & Run again, or to be able to run and charge same turn. Or a formation with assault from deep strike. You never know with GW and formations we might get something reasonably good or ridiculousness like all daemons in the Formation have a +1 invulnerable save, or replace daemonic instability with Fearless.

Requizen wrote:
They'd be good if you didn't have to blow a bunch of your Warp Pool on them instead of important things like Malefic, Invis, or the like. Psychic is supposed to be our shooting, but because it now shares a resource with all of the utility as well, it doesn't get used (or when it does, it's only one or two shots).

We need more incentive to use the dice instead of doing things. Making the powers better is a start, but it would be better to say things like "return Warp Charge per wound caused" or "can be cast on a 2+ no matter what", so we don't have to devote a precious amount of dice for a chance to get a power off.

As it stands, Witchfires are the worst power to get off. You have to roll for it (like all powers), but then deny (which, unlike Blessings or Summoning, they can get bonuses on), and then roll to hit (which we were never super good at) and save.

Witchfires got worse overall in this edition, and the fact that we got Summoning to blow our dice on instead basically means they're worthless unless you really need to kill that last Marine or have some extra WC left over.

This makes sense to me. You can summon in extra units, but then the ones you deployed don't do much else. This gives a versatile but costly tool.

THE PROBLEM IS that there are other armies that make this kind of balancing a disadvantage, rather than being fair.

So what are the chances we lose Grimoire?

 Sersi wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Judging by the scans, it's confirmed that the new Daemon lores are simply the same 4 asstastic powers from the codex + 3 new powers... Tzeentch's Firestorm is easily the most useless power in the entire game, (and that's saying something!), and yet, no changes to help make it not 1000% suck.

Suffice it to say, there's nothing shown so far that leads me to feel like we should be getting our hopes up. While granted the worst that can happen is that this "update" offers us nothing really and thus, we stay relatively the same, it also means that we're still likely a long ways off from having any of our glaring issues actually looked at and potentially resolved.

Given that the existing powers all suck. The three new powers in each would have to be broken to balance the lore and make it worth rolling. They also have to switch the primaris powers to something actually useful as well. I mean the but the old 4th ed Pavane or Lash into the Excess lore and I still probably wouldn't roll the table. I'd Say the Psychic powers are the low hanging fruit since we have access to good main rule book lores anyway.

The real meat is in the Formation rules and bonuses, relics, and warlord traits. What I'd really like would either be access to Hit & Run again, or to be able to run and charge same turn. Or a formation with assault from deep strike. You never know with GW and formations we might get something reasonably good or ridiculousness like all daemons in the Formation have a +1 invulnerable save, or replace daemonic instability with Fearless.

I actually wouldn't be surprised in the least to see our Formations give nothing of the sort... Honestly, you'd of thought that something like the KDK's 'Khornes Bloodstorm' formation would have given Hit & Run back to the Raptors, or at least 'assault from Deep Strike' to the likes of the Warptalons, but nope - nothing. It's easily one of the worst formations in the entire game!

Horrors at this point literally need a special rule that allows them to always attempt to cast Flickering Fire, regardless of whether or not an attached IC, (ie: Tzherald w/locus), has attempted to cast the spell.
7th ed has effectively removed any damage potential from these poor guys. When I use mine, they're only role is basically to generate added WC's and eat bullets while squatting on objectives. Occasionally launching themselves into combat when absolutely needed. It's an utter travesty that my Horrors routinely kill more enemies in please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n assaults than they do with their psychic powers, simply because it costs way too many resources to ever think of using Flickering Fire with them!
If/when I cast that spell nowadays, it's only ever with the BS4 Tzheralds, and even then, there's no way in hell to ever realistically fire off the 4D6 shot version, as it needs 7-8WC's to reliably go off. Those WC's can easily get me 2-3 more useful augments/hexes, or else summon a new unit.

My mono-Tzeentch army has effectively seen over half it's damage potential neutered by 7th. The only thing that'll save it from being a strictly non-competitive in any way type of army, is if GW is smart enough to fix Horrors through a good Tzeentch formation.

Sadly, I'd be surprised if Tzeentch even gets a formation that allows us to harness WC's on a 3+... I'm more willing to be we'll get nonsense such as a full unit of 9 Flamers getting to trade their individual templates for a single Hellstorm template attack, (a downgrade thanks to Warpflame), and Hit & Run on Screamers!

New pics of the Wulfen!

Via Scanner http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?29784-Readable-Space-Wolf-Rules

There is a ton of pictures!

Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

...well... it would be daft if two or more of them were doing it right ?

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

Alas poor Yarrick...

Lotsa wolf leaks... few daemon leaks.

 Grimskul wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

Alas poor Yarrick...

...we once had coffee together.


The better the picture quality gets, the less I like these guys. The original Wulfen weren't perfect, but they were still really good (IMHO) and I don't understand why they just didn't cast those in plastic with weapon options. Weird decision.

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

The arts program budget on Fenris was cut. Poor little champ is making the best of it.

Anyone know what the "Grimoire Campaign Edition" is that's up for preorder?

Requizen wrote:
Anyone know what the "Grimoire Campaign Edition" is that's up for preorder?

I believe it includes;
- all the new data cards
- some funky looking tokens?
- all the new formations + rumored Daemoncurion detachment
- a small booklet containing what basically sounds like an up-to-date version of just the rules/army list section of the codex (including the new relics & rumored unit updates)

Definitely not worth the asking price up here, which I believe is going to be over $200

Why the feth do they have to price those things so damn high? It's a joke. I want it but would never pay that price.

I wonder what my alternatives are, is there any other way to get the new rules without buying superfluous stuff?

Everything will be in the Warzone book, which is about half the price. The cards aren't included in that one, though.

Okay, thank you.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, thank you.

I think we're still looking at about $90 up here though, + an additional $16 for the cards... Still better than the outright hilariously ludicrous $190-200 or so before taxes!

While I'll definitely have to grab the cards + basic campaign book, at least I can always eventually use the SW side of things, as my Tzeentch army have had their bases all modeled up with bitz of dead Space Puppies!
Between what I bought to model up all my bases, and what I inherited from a couple friends who quickly gave-up on the SW fad shortly after their 5th ed codex release, I can probably cobble together at least 1200pts of Pups. Add to it a couple Wolfy Dreads, (call me crazy, but I do enjoy the idea o Murderfang!), and some Wulfen, and I can at least run a sweet little narrative display.

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

You have the book? Any shaky screenshots you can share with us?

No? Then wait a week we'll start getting leaks then.

Nomeny wrote:
I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Bitterness & constant disappointment are a Chaos player's best friend!

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

You have the book? Any shaky screenshots you can share with us?

No? Then wait a week we'll start getting leaks then.

Well, unless there's a Tzeentch formation that allows WC harnessing on 2's for Lore of Tzeentch powers, as well as fixes for the likes of Horrors who don't even function properly anymore... Plus a general fix for the Tzeentch lore which is currently complete junk due to 7th dumping all over an army who's damage output is tied to spamming Witchfires.
And/or a fix to the now half defunct Daemon of Tzeentch rule
Actually allowing Exalted Flamers on their own to still access Gifts.

Then no, this update will fix none of the issues that mono-Tzeentch currently has... Right now the supposedly 'best psyker' part of the Daemon army is the outright worst, except at Summoning and abusing a stupid OP gimmick.
Instead, my Tzeentch Daemons actually do more damage in the Assault phase than they can ever manage in the damned Psychic phase!

Why their Chaos so you know its gonna suck. They kept all the bad psyker powers, and they won't be changing any stat lines or point values <cause they never have>. Three of the Data cards are probably for the 3 Bloodthirster variants we already have. They won't fix or remove the Warp Table because chaos equals random and random is FUN. I'm struggling to think of a unit that was bad, that was ever made good by a formation rule. So, the appropriate response is....meh?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

You have the book? Any shaky screenshots you can share with us?

No? Then wait a week we'll start getting leaks then.

Well, unless there's a Tzeentch formation that allows WC harnessing on 2's for Lore of Tzeentch powers

Not assured, but given that there are currently 3 formations out there that do it and it is Lore-accurate, I would imagine this to be true

, as well as fixes for the likes of Horrors who don't even function properly anymore...

Even if they don't function as shooters, they still are the best Troop unit in the book and don't need any changes or "fixes".

And/or a fix to the now half defunct Daemon of Tzeentch rule

Not entirely necessary as the other half is broken as gak

Then no, this update will fix none of the issues that mono-Tzeentch currently has... Right now the supposedly 'best psyker' part of the Daemon army is the outright worst, except at Summoning and abusing a stupid OP gimmick.
Instead, my Tzeentch Daemons actually do more damage in the Assault phase than they can ever manage in the damned Psychic phase!

Sure, if all you want is an army that kills things with Psychic powers, don't play Tzeentch. In fact, don't play the game, because that doesn't happen in any army in the game.

Just because the army doesn't play the way you like it to play doesn't mean it's broken or bad. Assault Tau doesn't work but you don't see all the Gundam fans out there clamoring for laser swords on Riptides.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Bitterness & constant disappointment are a Chaos player's best friend!

For you, maybe. I'm a Chaos player that's pretty happy with how my army works. If you don't enjoy the game, then take some time off. Either you'll find something better to do, or you'll come back to the game with some perspective. Either way you win.

I wouldn't call rerolling saves of 1 "broken as gak" when there's all this crazy new 7.5 stuff. I mean sure we can boost that to a 2++ rerollable, but only for a fethton of points and only on units whose damage output is pretty frigging small compared to the problem units out there.

There's no denying that nowadays chaos is solidly behind the power curve and 626 isn't wrong for desperately wanting better support. It's alright if you like the way they play, but it isn't recent and it doesn't keep up with other books, and as he pointed out doesn't even really fit the depiction of the universe gw has given us anymore in comparison to other armies.

There's still hope this release will help us in a big way, but right now all it seems like is a bandaid to tie us over, and that's pretty disappointing. Complaining won't make gw change, but he/she has a right to do it anyway.

Chaos hasn't gotten enough love. It's natural for customers to be vocally disappointed when you don't handle their product as well as 95% of the customers want you to.

He's welcome to complain. He's not welcome to speak for me.

Nomeny wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Bitterness & constant disappointment are a Chaos player's best friend!

For you, maybe. I'm a Chaos player that's pretty happy with how my army works. If you don't enjoy the game, then take some time off. Either you'll find something better to do, or you'll come back to the game with some perspective. Either way you win.

Well it really depends on how you play chaos, right? Experiment 626 is a Mono-Tzeentch player, so hard mode. Many CD players prefer mono-lists, while others don't want to have to play Karios and Be'lakor to be competitive.

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

It's the sculptors way of noting the duality between man and beast, the Wulfen is momentarily contemplating the life he's lost, presumably right before ripping a heretic something new for themselves as well.

A similar expression is done on the I am Slaughter book cover, how the ork face is reflected in the Imperial Fists blade, as if to highlight our choice between nobility and barbarism.



What's interesting about the Wulfen piece however is that he's going through a beastial transformation yet maintains his decision to to remain loyalist.

Somewhat thought provoking if you ask me.

Good looking minis too, dynamic and intense, and who doesn't dig sci-fi wolfmen?

Personally I think the expression on the book cover is that of the Imperial Fist contemplating the importance of fiber in one's diet.

So with the exalted flamer and 3 bloodthirster variants, that's 4 dataslates.

What about the other 2?

I suppose Belakor could be one... am I missing anything else?

Maybe the Exalted Alluress from the Seeker Chariots will get Exalted Flamer treatment for... reasons?

Requizen wrote:

Not assured, but given that there are currently 3 formations out there that do it and it is Lore-accurate, I would imagine this to be true

Considering how Chaos has been treated for the past ten years, it's better to expect the shaft again... You know what they say about 'hope' being the first step towards.

Requizen wrote:
Even if they don't function as shooters, they still are the best Troop unit in the book and don't need any changes or "fixes".

Horrors have always been defined as being the 'magical artillery/shooting' Daemons. That's Tzeentch's main focus, alongside supposedly being the best psyker of the 3 magic using Gods and his love of fire/burning things.

Unfortunately, Horrors can no longer shoot - at all! It takes far too many resources to just get their shots off, coupled with their average BS which means that Prescience is pretty much mandatory.
For the typical investment of 8-10WC's minimum, you're lucky to kill 3-4 MEQ's at best. That's about as close to a useless unit as is possible to get nowadays.

Either Flickering Fire needs to be overhauled, (which we know is almost certainly not happening, since the leaks have shown that Tzeentch's Firestorm - the game's worst psychic power btw - is 100% unchanged), AND, Horrors need a special rule to allow them always attempt to cast Flickering Fire.
Otherwise, Horrors need to go back to having a basic shooting ability.

Right now, the unit is complete garbage. WC's are cheap to spam through Tzheralds, who can also bring added utility spells, as well as simply taking the Portalglyph for 'free' Horror units. Plaguebearers squat on Objectives better due to Stealth + Shrouded and higher toughness, with the ability to gain FnP. (and a bullet sponge with a Palanquin Herald)
The only time Horrors win out is vs. Tau due to their ability to pretty much ignore half the game's rules.

Requizen wrote:
Not entirely necessary as the other half is broken as gak

Not sure if serious, or just Trolling...

I wouldn't call the need to invest 800 odd points just to make as pointed out, a single unit that is easily tarpitted in assaults nearly unkillable.

Besides, I'd happily give up the entire re-roll 1's gimmick if it would mean getting a more characterful rule that actively boosts what Tzeentch is supposed to be all about - namely, Psychic phase dominance.

Requizen wrote:
Sure, if all you want is an army that kills things with Psychic powers, don't play Tzeentch. In fact, don't play the game, because that doesn't happen in any army in the game.

Just because the army doesn't play the way you like it to play doesn't mean it's broken or bad. Assault Tau doesn't work but you don't see all the Gundam fans out there clamoring for laser swords on Riptides.

Excuse me, but I play Tzeentch because I enjoy the psychic/magical shenanigans & burning everything in sight that's always defined his daemons

Right now, Tzeentch's ranged damage out put is garbage, as the Psychic tricks are pretty much impossible to utilise, due to how 7th has nuked Witchfires in general. Meanwhile, what little actual shooting Tzeentch has is still hamstrung by the fact it's almost all Warpflame based, and is limited in it's availability & utility...
- Flamers are only S4, and their damage potential is tied directly proportional to how many models are in the unit they target. Against basic 10+ strong squads of T3/4, they're solid. But they can't really scratch anything T5, and/or multi-wound, and/or small elite units of 5 or fewer, as they simply can't generate the weight of fire to negate handing out FnP like candy.
- Burning Chariots are sharing the same slot as Grinders & DP's, and are a high priority target on a fairly flimsy platform.
- Exalted Flamers eat into the number of Tzheralds that are available.
- Screamers while not having to deal with Warpflame, are S4 and again have trouble generating volume of wounds.

Basically, Tzeentch no longer really functions as he should. Warpflame is now a PITA to deal with due to it going off twice per turn now, (Psychic + Shooting phases), and our high strength shooting is hugely limited due to no longer being able to viable throw out plentiful S6 Flickering Fire from Horror w/ Tzherald batteries.

Instead, Tzeentch is better off playing more like a damned Khornate army that runs forwards and hits stuff in combat!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
So with the exalted flamer and 3 bloodthirster variants, that's 4 dataslates.

What about the other 2?

I suppose Belakor could be one... am I missing anything else?

If I were inclined toward (extremely) wishful thinking, I'd say 2 new LoC variants, to go with the new plastic model that has been on the way for... um... a while?

It'll probably be something for Khorne though.

A bit more info about the book - via Scanner on the Spikeybits forum

And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring! Well I guess you could hope for buffed stats but its probably just re-printed rules.

So:

Data Slates: reprints of already existing units.
New Psychic Lores: 21 powers of which only 9 are actually new.

But there's still a chance the following are good.

New Formations:
New Warlord Traits:
New Relics:

 Sersi wrote:
And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring!

Is this confirmed? Cause if it's not, we don't have to bring the end of the world. Although I think GW left chaos doomed for quite a time, I think it's payback time. I believe skarbrand will be in as a LoW. Probably Gargantuan.

The six data-slates line up with what we all presumed given that there's been no word on any actual new Daemon models (or did I miss that) with this release. The three Bloodthirster variants don't have printed rules for the Chaos Daemon book so putting them in makes sense, ditto with the Exalted Flamer. Be'lakor isn't much of a surprise as he is currently available only on digital platforms.

The interesting one is Skarbrand seeing as he already has rules in the codex, my best guess is that he will get a new profile to reflect the model and be brought in line with the two stronger Bloodthirster variants. I can't see any other reason to specifically give him a data-slate, unless it's purely to have a proper data-slate for a newer model.

I'm curious to see whether this will be an Astra Militarum style codex update in the form of a campaign book as it makes me wonder when the next fully fledged codex for any army will arrive.

Didn't they already release updated 40k rules for Skarbrand in the WD he was released alongside? Pretty sure there were next to no changes at all.

If it's a reprint of that prepare to be disappointed.

That's what I mean, he didn't get any new rules last time so it would be strange for them to be specifying he has a data-sheet now unless it literally is just to have printed rules in a book. If he does get new rules though, that would be awesome.

 Sersi wrote:
And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring! Well I guess you could hope for buffed stats but its probably just re-printed rules.

Be'lakor nerf incoming? Perhaps...?

 Sersi wrote:
But there's still a chance the following are good.

New Formations:
New Warlord Traits:
New Relics:

... and Grimoire nerf. Together that would do a lot to fix some of the more broken combos. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Be'lakor is now able to roll on one of the 3 god tables instead of choosing powers from Telepathy.

And by instead I mean it replaces the ability entirely! FUN.

Grimoire now works on a 6 only. On a 1-4 the unit is so humiliated that they must take a Daemonic Instability test that if failed automatically applies the 'remove entire unit' effect. On a 5 the unit loses all saves it would get, including cover and Feel No Pain (even though Feel No Pain isn't a save). FUN.

Also a new Relic! For 100 points you can choose to treat 2 result on the Warp Storm table as anything else... except you can't actually as it's written in a way that makes everything except a 2 count as a 2 and also mandatory. FUN rules expertly written by Crudace after Kelly left him in charge while he went out to play some Craftworld Eldar to come up with a new OP unit for their next campaign.

The above are not rumors, but are almost certainly 99.995% true considering GW's track record with Chaos.

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring!

Is this confirmed? Cause if it's not, we don't have to bring the end of the world. Although I think GW left chaos doomed for quite a time, I think it's payback time. I believe skarbrand will be in as a LoW. Probably Gargantuan.

I don't recall saying confirmed....but seriously its all right there in purple crayon...I mean in the caption. Accept it.

Sorry, new pics or not, the Wulfen look bloody awful.

I don't know where everyone got the new relics from: the scans don't mention it.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:



Be'lakor nerf incoming? Perhaps...?

Oh you know it! I'm sure they've sold enough of him by now, and the game needs more balance something...something. Or you know a point increase.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:


... and Grimoire nerf. Together that would do a lot to fix some of the more broken combos. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

No...no..."rules clarification". Hey gotta clean up those 2++ saves. Unbalancing you know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:
I don't know where everyone got the new relics from: the scans don't mention it.

For some reason there is no English language scan of the page with the two Khorne formations. But that page mentions the "10 formation, relics, warlord traits, and psychic lores."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


Also a new Relic! For 100 points you can choose to treat 2 result on the Warp Storm table as anything else... except you can't actually as it's written in a way that makes everything except a 2 count as a 2 and also mandatory.

Nah....re-roll the warp storm result once per game....50 pts. Bargain!

Caederes wrote:
The six data-slates line up with what we all presumed given that there's been no word on any actual new Daemon models (or did I miss that) with this release. The three Bloodthirster variants don't have printed rules for the Chaos Daemon book so putting them in makes sense, ditto with the Exalted Flamer. Be'lakor isn't much of a surprise as he is currently available only on digital platforms.

The interesting one is Skarbrand seeing as he already has rules in the codex, my best guess is that he will get a new profile to reflect the model and be brought in line with the two stronger Bloodthirster variants. I can't see any other reason to specifically give him a data-slate, unless it's purely to have a proper data-slate for a newer model.

I'm curious to see whether this will be an Astra Militarum style codex update in the form of a campaign book as it makes me wonder when the next fully fledged codex for any army will arrive.

So what are the odds that GW will fix the Exalt Flamer dataslate and allow him to take 20pts worth of Gifts? (currently I figure the odds are sitting around -1000% or so!)

And yes, this is absolutely an Astra Militarum style Band-Aid, meaning we're still going to be just as shoehorned as before, and Tzeentch will still be complete arse at the psychic phase.

That's not necessarily true until we read the rules for sure.

Skarbrand is identical to his 6th edition codex rules when they released the model. If they just reprint the rules, that's a big missed opportunity. I'd buy the guy if his rules were better but now I can't justify it cause he BLOWS.

I doubt they would make him a gargantuan though, he's the same size as the bloodthirsters, and they're still just MC's. They didn't even get a strength or Toughness bump despite the model doubling in size.

I wonder if the daemon prince formation will be Belakor +3 others. If they're including his dataslate, perhaps he has a part in the campaign.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
That's not necessarily true until we read the rules for sure.

Seeing as we know that for example, Tzeentch's Firestorm - likely the single worst psychic power in the entire game is 100% copied from the codex, I don't want to get my hopes up in any way that Tzeentch will get fixed at all.

It's be nice, but at this point, considering how GW have treated Chaos in general over the past 10 years, we shouldn't really expect to be much more than the SW's punching bag in this supplement.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Skarbrand is identical to his 6th edition codex rules when they released the model. If they just reprint the rules, that's a big missed opportunity. I'd buy the guy if his rules were better but now I can't justify it cause he BLOWS.

I doubt they would make him a gargantuan though, he's the same size as the bloodthirsters, and they're still just MC's. They didn't even get a strength or Toughness bump despite the model doubling in size.

I wonder if the daemon prince formation will be Belakor +3 others. If they're including his dataslate, perhaps he has a part in the campaign.

Greater Daemons in general need a massive overhaul! (and definitely NOT being shoehorned into GMC status!!)

It's utterly moronic that the Bloodthirster, despite being visibly nothing but muscle on muscle & the physical manifestation of rage incarnate, is still S6! Meanwhile, you give the LoC his kung-fu stick and he can golf shot Marines with S8?!
Yeah, that makes a tone of sense - forge that narrative!

Likewise, the GUO should ideally go back to being T8 and 6 wounds, etc...
Basically, give them back their old statlines from back in the day.

I doubt that Be'lakor is going to get a nerf bat pounding. Probably just print word for word his e-device only rules into the book. Mind you, if they do nerf him, (likely by removing his essentially "Loremaster - Telepathy" ability, then we'll know for sure that GW truly hates Chaos!)

Yeah I don't have my hopes up too much either, I'm just saying it's not 100% certain we won't get something nice. A formation can do alot, relics can bump a unit quite reasonably in effectiveness, the psychic powers could be good.. I know what they say about hope, but I still have a wee bit.

Agreed entirely on our monsters. They're all still cool, but they need reworking. The bloodthirster model in particular makes you double take at his S and T stats. It's hard to believe.

If they nerf Belakor, I quit. He's soo many points for what he does. He can be killed more easily than other daemon princes because he lacks access to rewards. I don't use him very much because it's just so much points for a t5 w4 model. Only in our group tournaments will I pull him out, and I'm essentially just hiding him all game and casting invisibility, it doesn't feel incredibly effective. It feels... not that fun. And it makes him seem more like a weakling support unit when he's supposed to be the first fething daemon prince, a badass if there ever was one.

Daemon princes should be T6, but I would settle for eternal warrior...

Well, Atia mentioned over on B&C that she'll be doing a rules dump on the 11th, so one week from tomorrow, we'll be able to see just how good/bad/awful/rage-quit-inducing our new Band-Aid turns out!

As a Tzeentchian devotee, my current predictions are that;
1. The new psychic lores will be 'meh' overall. Slaanesh will get the best of it & get a couple spells that can fudge Ld, thus making Psy Shriek & Caco Choir nasty as feth.
Tzeentch will get the shaft and still be the worst of the three.

2. We'll get 2 really good formations, though our Daemoncurion will be lackluster but at least with a very cheap Core requirement ala Khornekin.

3. The Grimoire will get re-worded in a similar manner to the MoT in the CSM codex, in that it can't boost invulns beyond 3++.
One or two of the new relics will be decent, the rest trash.

4. We'll get 1 gimmicky trick/list that will still be on a lower level than the current Decurion 'Crons/Gladius/Hunter Cadre/Eldar cheese, but non-Chaos players will declare it the most OP thing to have ever existed in 40k and call for a complete banning of it in every game from here on out!
(because at no time are Chaos players EVER allowed to have nice things it seems...)

Ooh, are we into the prediction stage? (Not wishlisting, because this is Chaos and we're a jaded bunch). Goody, that's my favorite part! Ok, here we go:

1. The first clue that they phoned it in (again): Flickering Fire will be copy-pasted from the current rule and will still require house rules to use.

2. The "new" psychic powers will be the powers from CSM Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle tables. Symphony of Pain and Boon of Mutation will require CSM allies to use.

3. Be'lakor will lose telepathy. Instead he'll randomly generate each of his 3 powers from a randomly determined table (Change, Excess or Plague - roll a D3 each time). But he'll get TRIPLE Chaos Psychic Focus (!!!). +25 pts cost hike.

4. Each god will get a formation requiring a minimum of 4 units of lesser daemons. The decurion will require all 4 as core plus 1 auxiliary. The bonuses will be reroll deep strike scatter and -1 to Fear tests. No objective secured.

Experiment 626 wrote:


1. The new psychic lores will be 'meh' overall. Slaanesh will get the best of it & get a couple spells that can fudge Ld, thus making Psy Shriek & Caco Choir nasty as feth.
Tzeentch will get the shaft and still be the worst of the three.

I still wouldn't waste 25 pts to maybe roll -1 LD, to boost another psy power. That's a loosing strategy right there. Beside thy won't change the Primaris powers weak sauce as the are. What they should do is take the powers they gave "The Masque" [who no one ever takes] and make them psypowers. But they won't.

Experiment 626 wrote:


2. We'll get 2 really good formations, though our Daemoncurion will be lackluster but at least with a very cheap Core requirement ala Khornekin.

Your probably right. Here's hoping.

Experiment 626 wrote:


3. The Grimoire will get re-worded in a similar manner to the MoT in the CSM codex, in that it can't boost invulns beyond 3++.
One or two of the new relics will be decent, the rest trash.

Sounds about right.

Experiment 626 wrote:


4. We'll get 1 gimmicky trick/list that will still be on a lower level than the current Decurion 'Crons/Gladius/Hunter Cadre/Eldar cheese, but non-Chaos players will declare it the most OP thing to have ever existed in 40k and call for a complete banning of it in every game from here on out!
(because at no time are Chaos players EVER allowed to have nice things it seems...)

Sob....please don't let this be true.

I am going to go ahead and stand over here where we wait until we see anything before crying and playing victim.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ooh, are we into the prediction stage? (Not wishlisting, because this is Chaos and we're a jaded bunch). Goody, that's my favorite part! Ok, here we go:

1. The first clue that they phoned it in (again): Flickering Fire will be copy-pasted from the current rule and will still require house rules to use.

2. The "new" psychic powers will be the powers from CSM Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle tables. Symphony of Pain and Boon of Mutation will require CSM allies to use.

3. Be'lakor will lose telepathy. Instead he'll randomly generate each of his 3 powers from a randomly determined table (Change, Excess or Plague - roll a D3 each time). But he'll get TRIPLE Chaos Psychic Focus (!!!). +25 pts cost hike.

4. Each god will get a formation requiring a minimum of 4 units of lesser daemons. The decurion will require all 4 as core plus 1 auxiliary. The bonuses will be reroll deep strike scatter and -1 to Fear tests. No objective secured.

1. Well, yeah that's what they do now a days.

2. I could almost see them do that. Ecstatic Seizures wouldn't be so bad, and I take CSM Slaanesh Primaris over the current Daemon one any day. the but yeah Symphony of Pain...LOL.

3. LOL! Even GW would not be that dumb.....maybe.

4. I hadn't even thought of them require all four god for the decurion. But being GW the will almost certainly do that.

Cadian Detachments got new Warlord Traits and Relics in the Mont'ka book that are in addition to the ones already in the Astra Militarum book - there's now two Warlord Trait and Relic tables to choose from for a Cadian Detachment. I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that the Chaos Demon Relics are getting changed especially when the Chaos Demon codex itself is not getting updated.

However, the dataslate for Skarbrand is odd - the rules for him are already in the Chaos Demon codex and they didn't change when his new model came out and included rules in the box. That has to be a change in his rules, even if it is just changing him to a Lord of War. Be'lakor makes a little more sense since he's a Digital Only dataslate atm, however if you use the Officio Assassinorum dataslate as a reference - that didn't change when it went from its last digital dataslate to the White Dwarf and Mont'ka physical copies.

Just a thought would they give Chaos a simple buy what you want list for relics, or make them random like the rewards tables?

I'm guessing it will replace an exalted reward like before.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I'm guessing it will replace an exalted reward like before.

Or... What if these new relics are taken instead of any other Gifts?!

GW loves to double *****-slap Chaos, so why not give us a handful of mediocre new relics that also prevent us from taking our other random Gifts?! It's the perfect kind of lose-lose that Chaos players have become totally accustomed to!

 Sersi wrote:
Just a thought would they give Chaos a simple buy what you want list for relics, or make them random like the rewards tables?

They're not random at the moment though - you pay for an Exalted Reward and then swap whatever you roll for the Relic of your choice. If relics were random, then no-one would take them because you'd pay all those points for something that could be useless for you. The saving grace of the Reward system at the moment is the ability to swap out the result for the Lesser/Greater Magic Weapon or the Relic of your choice.

Well, 626, that's not altogether too different from how it is now, any herald gives up his rewards for a relic and you don't have enough point allotment to take anything other than a relic and a greater reward or 2 Lesser on a MC.

I would be very pleasantly surprised if you could take these relics without damaging your ability to take other rewards.

That would actually be pretty awesome. I like the rewards as is but putting a relic on someone that isn't the grimoire on a disc herald always makes me miss that greater reward.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Just a thought would they give Chaos a simple buy what you want list for relics, or make them random like the rewards tables?

They're not random at the moment though - you pay for an Exalted Reward and then swap whatever you roll for the Relic of your choice. If relics were random, then no-one would take them because you'd pay all those points for something that could be useless for you. The saving grace of the Reward system at the moment is the ability to swap out the result for the Lesser/Greater Magic Weapon or the Relic of your choice.

Yeah your right I was the conflating relics with rewards.

Predictions...

AFAIK, GW doesn't invalidate any currently printed rules unless they redo the entire codex.

If Daemons are getting a mini-overhaul in a campaign supplement, the supplement will only be ADDITIVE, not modifying anything in the current Daemons codex, but giving new additional options. Probably they'll be exclusive with the codex stuff (eg, Hellforged artifacts from Codex OR Supplement but not both).

Eg, an expanded psychic discipline IF you take the Tzeentch formation. New relics IF you date the daemonicurion.

Also I'm going to hurt someone if Tzeentch doesn't get a 'WC on 2+' formation like marines and frikken guardsmen get. I kind of hope GW isn't that brainless, but at the same time Tzeentch should get something that good or better.

inb4 Tzeentch Formation bonus is get WC on a 6+!
FUN.

I believe they aren't changing anything that's already in the codex because that would make it a new codex, and they're not advertising this as a new codex. They're just expanding what's there so that it lines up with other current codicies, which tells me that they still have no plans for a new codex for at least another year or so. So consider what's coming to be expansion, nothing more.

EDIT: What Trasvi said.

Pics by Captain Citadel - SpikeyBits forum

I predict screamerstar returning...

P.S. I want to believe

Warhams-77 wrote:

Spoiler:

Pics by Captain Citadel - SpikeyBits forum

Kinda cool artstyle, actually; I like the Wulfen on that pic!

What about those Tzeentchian Daemons, though? I know they are a lot like the old models we know, but couldn't they be kinda different? I mean that set does need new models, so this could be an early sighting.

It'd be great if they did resemble that. Especially the horrors that look like a mass of shifting flesh.

Meh I'm not surprised so far. I was fully expecting Daemon to be the NPC of the book just like Cadians were with the Tau. No real update for chaos daemon or csm until the end times. See you in 2017!

Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

 avedominusnox wrote:
Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

The one with the beak looks to be a fury, and I think the many-eyed ones are standard pink horrors? Might the tentacled one be a spawn?

 Goliath wrote:

 avedominusnox wrote:
Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

The one with the beak looks to be a fury, and I think the many-eyed ones are standard pink horrors? Might the tentacled one be a spawn?

Probably yes. It might be a spawn. Also considering the 4 princes image, it is interesting that the paint scheme might imply something about all 4 gods. But that's a theory only.

The tentacled one is a Flamer, I think. Just without any flames at the moment.

I also thought that was supposed to be a flamer.

The knee pad on the nurgle dp's face looks cool! I never thought of trying that.

The mighty indeed comment on the infernal formation concerns me the most.

I love my Daemons, and I'm really hoping this new book doesn't suck.

Keep in mind that we're stilling missing some older known daemon units... The tentacled thing could be a Firewyrm of Tzeentch (old school Spawn that could breath fire!), plus we're still missing the likes of Changebringers. (Flamers riding discs).
It's be cool if some of the artwork within the book sprinkles some of these units throughout, as a kind of easter egg for Daemon players.
Perhaps if/when we ever get a proper release again, we'll see a couple of these classic units return!?


I really, really hope and pray that the Infernal Tetrad formation doesn't outright force us to take a Prince from each God, as that would make it useless for mono-God lists... However, knowing GW, they probably think that something as themed as a mono or even dual God list is pure fiction.

I would be surprised if it doesn't force you to take one for each god. The apocalypse formation "infernal tetragon" or something is named very similar to the Infernal Tetrad and it requires one lesser daemon unit and one greater daemon from each god.

Yes it requires each of the greater daemon and one core unit of each God. They have to be always positioned in a tetragon formation in table but everything inside the box gets reroll failed inv saves and shrouded.

The image shows one of each type of Prince, but that doesn't necessarily mean the rules will reflect it.

Granted, they probably will, but it's not a given as of yet. Only 1 week until the dump (sooner for leaks, probably).

When it will release? I thought that it was this Saturday.

 avedominusnox wrote:
When it will release? I thought that it was this Saturday.

Preorder is this Saturday, so it won't be released until next week. Officially the street date is the 16th, I think, but it really depends on when your store gives it to you. Atia said she was going to dump all info on the 11th, and I fully expect to have some written leaks or shaky pics before that.

Boo. One more week. Isn't it weird that we know very little about the new daemons...?
God I hate and love when you have to wait for something like that. Also my anticipation for CSM reminds of DE players and Necron players waiting for the new codices. The old ones.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Boo. One more week. Isn't it weird that we know very little about the new daemons...?
God I hate and love when you have to wait for something like that. Also my anticipation for CSM reminds of DE players and Necron players waiting for the new codices. The old ones.

Meh. It's just a supplement added to the main codex in a collector's edition. Unless you spend $156 on one of those 500 copies, you'll just have to buy a card pack, and, if you want, the wulfen campaign book for its daemon rules...

Hmm, the daemonkin book dont allow bloodthirsters to take rewards, but the white dwarf BT rules did.
I sure hope this book give them rewards.

And perhaps a formation that allow flying monsters to assault before turn 4 :(

The book is for the chaos daemons faction. If they take rewards away for the bloodthirsters from the chaos daemons codex, they would take it away from all daemons.

I don't think that's going to happen.

People keep saying "4 dp formation must be useless, models are too expensive pointswise" but it's still better than nothing. I have 7 daemon prince models, working on a conversion for my 8th, and I'm definitely going to use the formation, and hope it's awesome. Without changing the ALE, a formation is the best gw could do to make the units use able, and it's definitely capable of doing so. I don't understand how having a chance for your models to become more effective can disappoint you. Wait until the rules leak and it's only a 4++ and -1 to fear tests or something, then get mad.

This isn't the release daemons deserve, but it still might be the one we need right now.

daveNYC wrote:
Personally I think the expression on the book cover is that of the Imperial Fist contemplating the importance of fiber in one's diet.

The deterioration of culture at work...

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The book is for the chaos daemons faction. If they take rewards away for the bloodthirsters from the chaos daemons codex, they would take it away from all daemons.

I don't think that's going to happen.

People keep saying "4 dp formation must be useless, models are too expensive pointswise" but it's still better than nothing. I have 7 daemon prince models, working on a conversion for my 8th, and I'm definitely going to use the formation, and hope it's awesome. Without changing the ALE, a formation is the best gw could do to make the units use able, and it's definitely capable of doing so. I don't understand how having a chance for your models to become more effective can disappoint you. Wait until the rules leak and it's only a 4++ and -1 to fear tests or something, then get mad.

This isn't the release daemons deserve, but it still might be the one we need right now.

4++ and -1 to fear tests, but it doesn't work on ATSKNF. Gotta be realistic here.

daveNYC wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The book is for the chaos daemons faction. If they take rewards away for the bloodthirsters from the chaos daemons codex, they would take it away from all daemons.

I don't think that's going to happen.

People keep saying "4 dp formation must be useless, models are too expensive pointswise" but it's still better than nothing. I have 7 daemon prince models, working on a conversion for my 8th, and I'm definitely going to use the formation, and hope it's awesome. Without changing the ALE, a formation is the best gw could do to make the units use able, and it's definitely capable of doing so. I don't understand how having a chance for your models to become more effective can disappoint you. Wait until the rules leak and it's only a 4++ and -1 to fear tests or something, then get mad.

This isn't the release daemons deserve, but it still might be the one we need right now.

4++ and -1 to fear tests, but it doesn't work on ATSKNF. Gotta be realistic here.

What doesn't work on ATSKNF? The -1 or the 4++?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The book is for the chaos daemons faction. If they take rewards away for the bloodthirsters from the chaos daemons codex, they would take it away from all daemons.

I don't think that's going to happen.

People keep saying "4 dp formation must be useless, models are too expensive pointswise" but it's still better than nothing. I have 7 daemon prince models, working on a conversion for my 8th, and I'm definitely going to use the formation, and hope it's awesome. Without changing the ALE, a formation is the best gw could do to make the units use able, and it's definitely capable of doing so. I don't understand how having a chance for your models to become more effective can disappoint you. Wait until the rules leak and it's only a 4++ and -1 to fear tests or something, then get mad.

This isn't the release daemons deserve, but it still might be the one we need right now.

4++ and -1 to fear tests, but it doesn't work on ATSKNF. Gotta be realistic here.

What doesn't work on ATSKNF? The -1 or the 4++?

Nothing works against ATSKNF - Daemons don't get saves and are IDd by all attacks or shots from Space Marines

Requizen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The book is for the chaos daemons faction. If they take rewards away for the bloodthirsters from the chaos daemons codex, they would take it away from all daemons.

I don't think that's going to happen.

People keep saying "4 dp formation must be useless, models are too expensive pointswise" but it's still better than nothing. I have 7 daemon prince models, working on a conversion for my 8th, and I'm definitely going to use the formation, and hope it's awesome. Without changing the ALE, a formation is the best gw could do to make the units use able, and it's definitely capable of doing so. I don't understand how having a chance for your models to become more effective can disappoint you. Wait until the rules leak and it's only a 4++ and -1 to fear tests or something, then get mad.

This isn't the release daemons deserve, but it still might be the one we need right now.

4++ and -1 to fear tests, but it doesn't work on ATSKNF. Gotta be realistic here.

What doesn't work on ATSKNF? The -1 or the 4++?

Nothing works against ATSKNF - Daemons don't get saves and are IDd by all attacks or shots from Space Marines

That sounds about right...

Plus an added rule that when playing against Grey Knights, the Daemons automatically poop themselves and return to the warp on a 1+.

 Fayric wrote:
Hmm, the daemonkin book dont allow bloodthirsters to take rewards, but the white dwarf BT rules did.
I sure hope this book give them rewards.

And perhaps a formation that allow flying monsters to assault before turn 4 :(

Oh you mean for summoned Daemonkin right haha? Because I was going to say - even in hammer and anvil, you're looking at turn 3 at worst

Requizen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The book is for the chaos daemons faction. If they take rewards away for the bloodthirsters from the chaos daemons codex, they would take it away from all daemons.

I don't think that's going to happen.

People keep saying "4 dp formation must be useless, models are too expensive pointswise" but it's still better than nothing. I have 7 daemon prince models, working on a conversion for my 8th, and I'm definitely going to use the formation, and hope it's awesome. Without changing the ALE, a formation is the best gw could do to make the units use able, and it's definitely capable of doing so. I don't understand how having a chance for your models to become more effective can disappoint you. Wait until the rules leak and it's only a 4++ and -1 to fear tests or something, then get mad.

This isn't the release daemons deserve, but it still might be the one we need right now.

4++ and -1 to fear tests, but it doesn't work on ATSKNF. Gotta be realistic here.

What doesn't work on ATSKNF? The -1 or the 4++?

Nothing works against ATSKNF - Daemons don't get saves and are IDd by all attacks or shots from Space Marines

I'd actually be OK with that. I'm convinced that a lot of Chaos' (or CSM at least) woes are due to them being balanced to be strictly worse than SM since SM are the poster boys and Chaos are the archenemy. If they gave Chaos crazy awesome rules but just made them not work against SM (to reflect plot armor or whatever) then Chaos could actually be good again, if not against SM then at least against somebody.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Apart from the herald on disc and screamers the other beasts look unfamiliar with other tzeentch units. Especially the one with the tentacles..

The 'tentacle' guy is most likely the Exalted Flamer - http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Chaos-Daemons-Burning-Chariot-of-Tzeentch. He's probably one of the dataslates that coming with the book, since the Burning Chariot kit can assemble either a Herald or the Exalted Flamer on foot in addition to them being mounted on the chariot. His rules for being on foot got added in on the Chaos Demon 7th Edition FAQ.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Hmm, the daemonkin book dont allow bloodthirsters to take rewards, but the white dwarf BT rules did.
I sure hope this book give them rewards.

And perhaps a formation that allow flying monsters to assault before turn 4 :(

Oh you mean for summoned Daemonkin right haha? Because I was going to say - even in hammer and anvil, you're looking at turn 3 at worst

No, sorry, I meant swooping monsters. They enter play at turn 2 earliest, land (change to glide) in turn 3, and may assault in turn 4.

FMCs can start on the table though.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
FMCs can start on the table though.

Our problem is that anything which gets summoned, whether through psychic powers or abilities like the Blood Tithe table are useless, as at best they can't assault until turn 4. That's borderline unplayable for models who's damage output is almost entirely limited to punching things, while costing 250-300+ points!

Wait, why turn 4 for Summoned?

Summon BT/LoC on Turn 1 with Possession (in Gliding mode)
Land on Turn 2
Charge on Turn 3

Blood Tithe you're right, though. Either way sucks, to be fair, there's no reason they can't land in Glide mode.

Summoning an fmc first turn is usually suboptimal because you would be trading a full squad from your list out for it, particularly if you get first turn.

I might summon one turn 1 if someone focused my horrors down to 8 or less. Otherwise the horrors should benefit my list more than a fmc charging turn 3 if no one runs away from it.

A few people I've talked to supposedly found a loophole with the wording for summoning with KDK which apparently gets them to land a turn earlier than normal. Can't remember how they justified it though, honestly I've found quite a few of my local KDK players to be the type that constantly get their rules wrong or flat out cheat. Kind of unfortunate as most Chaos players in my area are really nice

Getting off that tangent, I'd expect that Daemon Prince formation to be a one-of-each-god kind of deal in the same vein as the Tetragon of Darkness. It would only make sense after all.

Caederes wrote:
A few people I've talked to supposedly found a loophole with the wording for summoning with KDK which apparently gets them to land a turn earlier than normal. Can't remember how they justified it though, honestly I've found quite a few of my local KDK players to be the type that constantly get their rules wrong or flat out cheat. Kind of unfortunate as most Chaos players in my area are really nice

Its been covered numerous times in YMDC and its legality is questionable at best.

Well, the exalted flamer and Belakor dataslates are leaked and there are no changes.

Neither seems changed. Good for Be'lakor, meh for the Exalted Flamer.

Warpflame unchanged. Meh, would have been nice to get a bonus on it but I'm kinda non plussed.

Grimoire Collection:

A beautifully-presented, compact collection limited to 500 copies, the Chaos Daemons Grimoire Collection is the best way for Chaos Daemons players to get all the juicy new rules content from Curse of the Wulfen, without those pesky Space Wolves getting in the way! It contains six metal objective markers, twenty-one psychic power cards, thirty-six tactical objective cards, a mini Codex: Chaos Daemons featuring an exclusive cover design and an exclusive thirty-two page booklet - this contains new formations, new datasheets, new god-specific Warlord Traits, new Hellforged Artefacts and new psychic powers.

So, notes:
-God specific Warlord Traits has me iffy. 4 Warlord Trait tables? That's a lot. If only one tables gets the Reroll Daemonic Instability, the other two will probably just be ignored.
-New Hellforged Artefacts probably means we're not getting any alternative options (i.e. still part of the Exalted Rewards table), but I don't know if "new" means "replacing old ones" or "additional artefacts".

So Exalted Flamers didn't get fixed.

Here's to betting that Skarbrand is still 225pts of pure garbage, who's only usable role is to gift your opponent with First Blood!

Meh, not every special character has to be good. In fact, most of them are pretty bad as it is. Skarbrand is lucky enough to at least have a good model to make up for his badness.

*scowls at my Trazyn and Imotekh models*

Not much, a few more pics from the webshop *updated*

Literal copy paste, didn't even put Malefic in the Psyker sections LOL.

Requizen wrote:


Neither seems changed. Good for Be'lakor, meh for the Exalted Flamer.

Warpflame unchanged. Meh, would have been nice to get a bonus on it but I'm kinda non plussed.

Grimoire Collection:

A beautifully-presented, compact collection limited to 500 copies, the Chaos Daemons Grimoire Collection is the best way for Chaos Daemons players to get all the juicy new rules content from Curse of the Wulfen, without those pesky Space Wolves getting in the way! It contains six metal objective markers, twenty-one psychic power cards, thirty-six tactical objective cards, a mini Codex: Chaos Daemons featuring an exclusive cover design and an exclusive thirty-two page booklet - this contains new formations, new datasheets, new god-specific Warlord Traits, new Hellforged Artefacts and new psychic powers.

So, notes:
-God specific Warlord Traits has me iffy. 3 Warlord Trait tables? That's a lot. If only one tables gets the Reroll Daemonic Instability, the other two will probably just be ignored.
-New Hellforged Artefacts probably means we're not getting any alternative options (i.e. still part of the Exalted Rewards table), but I don't know if "new" means "replacing old ones" or "additional artefacts".

Belakor will be in the new book? Sweet, time to give him a try and rickroll some of my friends

Wow. They didn't put malefic in psyker options.

Now I'm very prepared to be incredibly disappointed.

Requizen wrote:
Literal copy paste, didn't even put Malefic in the Psyker sections LOL.

Ha! And they expect us to pay $200 Canadian for this crap?! Nice try GW.

Just got an email about the codices, but it's not on their website. Anyone know when it will be available for pre order?

Who the feth is going to buy the grimoire collection.

What company thinks they can repackage a product fancy and sell it to you again, for an absurd price, when it's almost the exact same gak it was before. They made a sweet booklet and all that fancy superfluous stuff, what's the point?

It's almost false advertising. It should notify the customers that it contains very little content that's any different from the 6th codex and dataslates people already have. It's like paying 7000$ for a jacket when a 25$ one you've had for years is only a very small amount different.

I get selling the new rules, but why dress it up like that and lie to everyone, including yourself. Why not treat two factions equally when they do these campaign releases.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Just got an email about the codices, but it's not on their website. Anyone know when it will be available for pre order?

preorders should go live when your local clock rolls round to tomorrow, New Zealands has which is where the pictures are coming from now

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Who the feth is going to buy the grimoire collection.

What company thinks they can repackage a product fancy and sell it to you again, for an absurd price, when it's almost the exact same gak it was before. They made a sweet booklet and all that fancy superfluous stuff, what's the point?

It's almost false advertising. It should notify the customers that it contains very little content that's any different from the 6th codex and dataslates people already have. It's like paying 7000$ for a jacket when a 25$ one you've had for years is only a very small amount different.

I get selling the new rules, but why dress it up like that and lie to everyone, including yourself. Why not treat two factions equally when they do these campaign releases.

*slow clap*
I'm seriously contemplating not even bothering with the campaign book itself... Probably just get the Daemon datacards as at least they'll be new stuff there.

The formations I'm expecting to be worthless, especially as a primarily Tzeentch player. And I'm not shelling out $90 for a couple new relics!

Pointless release is pointless at this point.

Requizen wrote:
Literal copy paste, didn't even put Malefic in the Psyker sections LOL.

So daemons lose Malefic? Awesome.

They still get it from the BRB. They never had it in their ALE before this either.

It's the excitement being crushed out of me that annoys me the most. Kinda explains why gw doesn't leak what they're releasing. It lets them sell minimal effort product to people who don't scrub forums for rumours.

if the release sucks completely, they have at most another year of me being a potential customer. Maybe not even that long. I'm beginning to understand why people have switched to other game systems.

Although, if I liked space wolves, I would be happy right now.

That's enough Negative Nancy for today, I suppose.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
They still get it from the BRB. They never had it in their ALE before this either.

I'm sure some will argue that specific rules trump general ones.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
They still get it from the BRB. They never had it in their ALE before this either.

I'm sure some will argue that specific rules trump general ones.

FAQ is always more specific than Codex or Supplement and the FAQ gives it to them. No question unless they remove that from the site.

It is a bummer. Looks to be more of a campaign focus on the daemon side of things (adding a few bits) than a proper update of the CD book.

I told you.


This is an expansion... supplement... collector's edition... campaign... set.


PLOOSE BUY IT

Rules leak in the SW thread via Iuchiban

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
They still get it from the BRB. They never had it in their ALE before this either.

It's the excitement being crushed out of me that annoys me the most. Kinda explains why gw doesn't leak what they're releasing. It lets them sell minimal effort product to people who don't scrub forums for rumours.

if the release sucks completely, they have at most another year of me being a potential customer. Maybe not even that long. I'm beginning to understand why people have switched to other game systems.

Although, if I liked space wolves, I would be happy right now.

That's enough Negative Nancy for today, I suppose.

Well, at the very least the likes of Sad Panda have hinted that 2017 is supposedly going to be 'our year'. Considering that I've been waiting since Nov 2007 for actual, decent rules that give us back our stolen flavour, I figure that another 18 months or so isn't an eternity. (though it'll definitely feel like it!)

GW have proven that when they give a damn, they can produce really good stuff for Chaos, as our 6th ed Daemons codex was easily one of the single best books from 6th through early 7th. (if not the outright best, from fluff & character, to internal & external balance)
Outside of 1 hugely abusive gimmick (that admittedly requires the investment of 800+ points to make work!), and really bad dice going against you (which every army can equally suffer from!), almost every single in our book is/was usable up until the newest 7.5 craziness hit the fan.

So I'll bitterly sit back and continue to wait for Chaos to get it's long awaited due.
If however next year sees nothing, or worse yet, a continuation of GW treating Chaos as nothing more than a joke army who's only role is to play punching bag for snot-nosed 10 year olds to feel special about themselves, then yeah, I'm likely through with actually playing games in general, except against a small circle of friends where we can mix-and-match rules the way we want.

Basically, what needs to happen next year for me is:
1. New codices for both Marines + Daemons that are at least on the same level as the likes of DA's/SW's/Ad Mech.

2. The Chaos Marine like must be 100% overhauled and re-booted. I'm simply fed up with being gouged by the 'Chaos Tax' and forced to shell out for half the Loyalist range just so we can build our basic codex equipment options!
At this point, we really deserve a 3 month release minimum across both armies and 12+ new kits for Chaos Marines alone to re-boot the model line... basic Marines, Chosen, Terminators, Havocs, Cultists, 'Zerkers, Noise Marines, Plaguemarines, Oblit/Mutie combi kit, variant Rhino + Land Raider are absolute musts.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Rules leak in the SW thread via Iuchiban

And yet again, Loyalists have stolen one of our few remaining unique abilities... Mind you, if Beasts are just Nurgle's beloved puppies, then I guess we can't be too sore that a bunch of mongrel, flee infested Imperial dogs are treated similar!?

Iuchiban wrote:

Daemon Decurión is called Daemonic Incursion

Special rules:
- Demonic corruption: Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed.
- Warp unleashed: Reroll instability
- Demonic Power: +1 or -1 to the Warp Strom table after rolling

Hot damn these aren't bad at all.

Iuchiban wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Iuchiban:

Specifically, do Daemons have a formation of Psykers that get to cast on 2+, similar to Librarius Conclave or the like?

No but there are new specific artefacts for each God. And 3 new Psyker Disciplings for each God, with 7 powers each. And new god-specific warlord traits

THIS is a kick to the ethereal nuts though. No 2+? *sigh*.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Iuchiban wrote:

Daemon Decurión is called Daemonic Incursion

Special rules:
- Demonic corruption: Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed.
- Warp unleashed: Reroll instability
- Demonic Power: +1 or -1 to the Warp Strom table after rolling

Hot damn these aren't bad at all.

Yeah, we get a nice toy!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Iuchiban wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Iuchiban:

Specifically, do Daemons have a formation of Psykers that get to cast on 2+, similar to Librarius Conclave or the like?

No but there are new specific artefacts for each God. And 3 new Psyker Disciplings for each God, with 7 powers each. And new god-specific warlord traits

THIS is a kick to the ethereal nuts though. No 2+? *sigh*.

Aaaaaaaand Tzeentch still sucks...

Khorne Relics:

Iuchiban wrote:

A'rgath,king of swords: +1S, AP3, Specialist weapon, when fighting in a challenge always hits with 2+. 15 points

Lifetaker : AP2, Specialist weapong, 6 to wound are Instant Death, for every model killed, unit suffers 1D3 hits S3, AP4. 15 points

Crimson Crown; All Khorne Daemons at 8" get +1A. 40 points

Skullcutter: AP2, Specialist weapon, 6 to hit are SD.30 points (THAT ONE IS DAMN GOOD).

Khartoth, the blood thirsty: +1S, AP3, If a model suffers an unsaved wound remove it from the game. At the beginning of the model controller's turn roll a D6. With 4+ the model comes back to play via Deep strike, at 12" or less from the point it was removed from game.

Armour of something: 3+ Armour save, Adamantium will, -1S to when attacking its bearer.

No one said full relics per god!

Yeah this was unexpected.

inb4 Khorne and Nurgle get a full list, Slaanesh only gets 1 meh one and Tzeentch only gets 1 terrible one.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah this was unexpected.

inb4 Khorne and Nurgle get a full list, Slaanesh only gets 1 meh one and Tzeentch only gets 1 terrible one.

Well, currently the formation bonus seems to atleast buff slaanesh demons, so it looks like everyones atleast getting a little love.

I'm trying to figure out how much of the new content is for Nurgle.

... the SWs got a Formation of Psykers that harness WCs on a 3+ and gives them a unique Psychic power.

No doubt Tzeentch gets nothing of the sort.

Iuchiban wrote:
DP Formation:
4 DP
Every deamon must be aligned with a different God.
They get following accumulative benefits depending on how many models remain on the battlefield.
4 models: +1T
3 models: +1S
2 models: Reroll 1's to hit
1 model: No benefit

If your warlord is one of the DP, then all of them get the same warlord trait.

Speaking of Tzeentch...

Iuchiban wrote:
Let's go with Tzeetch:

Artefacts:

Paradox: AP4, Combat, Once per turn you can, after rolling for a psychic power turn the dices around. So, for example a roll of 1, 3 and 5, becomes 2, 4 and 6. 25 points

Unending grimorie: Bearer knows all the powers of the change discipline. 35 points

Scourge of souls: Combat, Fleshbane, AP is equal to the I of the target. Against vehicles is AP1. 15 points

Oracle disc: Disc of Tzeenth. At the beginning of your turn choose a unit in Reserves. That unit enters the game automatically. 35 points.

"Unable to translate": Bearer gets 3++ save, Every time bearer suffers a wound must take a Ld test. If failed is removed from game. 25 points.

Eternal staff. Combat, AP4, soulblaze or Template, S5, AP3 Soulblaze. 20 points

Psychic powers:

Primaris: Same a codex Daemons
1. Same as 1-2 from Daemon codex
2. Same as 3-4 from Daemon codex
3. Nova. S1D6, AP4, Assault 2D6 Ignore cover, warp flames
4. Invocation, 12", with 2 WC creates a Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch, with 3WC invoke 3 flamers of tzeentch or 1 burning chariot.
5. Same as 5-6 from Daemon codex.
6. Witch fire. 18". SD, AP1, Assault 1

That 3++ relic is actually so bad. 5 points more than a Stormshied and it can kill you. Why? It's bad if your forget the tricks Daemons can pull

Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

Daemon princes are still disappointing. The plus side is I don't need to pirchase a 4th

 Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

I kinda like the demon prince one.

I think the 3++ one is more expensive because it will be really easy to buff that tzeentch models invul up even further and he re-rolls 1's already.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

So, you have one of the longest ranged D weapons, second only to the Wraithknight and the Titans, and you can guarantee it with a relic. Sounds good to me, seeing as you can have a ton of charges to cast with.

 Swampmist wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

So, you have one of the longest ranged D weapons, second only to the Wraithknight and the Titans, and you can guarantee it with a relic. Sounds good to me, seeing as you can have a ton of charges to cast with.

Except that Tzeentch's main issues, especially with mono Tzeentch, is that Tzeentch powers cost too many WC's for too few shots!!

Horrors are garbage still! Their one main job is to act as magical artillery. It takes on average 7-8WC's to cast their basic spell - Flickering Fire, reliably, and then you still have to roll for the number of shots fired, (4D6), which then have to still hit (with only BS3), then wound (usually on 3's or 2's depending on toughness and/or a Tzherald w/Locus boost), and then get through armour/cover/invuln/FnP, and then you have a chance to possibly boost the unit you just shot at with FnP!

Tzeentch worked fine in 6th because you had actual volume of fire between Tzheralds buffing Horrors. Now, 7th has nerfed Witchfires in general into the ground, and our Warpflame based attacks are split between an unplayable psychic shooting mechanic AND the Shooting phase!

Tzeentch is still complete trash. Unless we get a formation that allows Pinkies to harness on a 2+, my army is still relegated to being a LoC delivery system, boring summon spam which gets me labeled a TFG, and Horrors who are better at flipping battle tanks and beating face than they are at ****ing MAGIC!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That 3++ relic is actually so bad. 5 points more than a Stormshied and it can kill you. Why?

Because its on a Tzeentch model that rerolls 1s to save. Also since it will probably also be a psyker has a good chance of also getting Cursed Earth and turning that 3++ into a rerollable 2++

That's a good point. I did forget about that.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

So, you have one of the longest ranged D weapons, second only to the Wraithknight and the Titans, and you can guarantee it with a relic. Sounds good to me, seeing as you can have a ton of charges to cast with.

Except that Tzeentch's main issues, especially with mono Tzeentch, is that Tzeentch powers cost too many WC's for too few shots!!

Horrors are garbage still! Their one main job is to act as magical artillery. It takes on average 7-8WC's to cast their basic spell - Flickering Fire, reliably, and then you still have to roll for the number of shots fired, (4D6), which then have to still hit (with only BS3), then wound (usually on 3's or 2's depending on toughness and/or a Tzherald w/Locus boost), and then get through armour/cover/invuln/FnP, and then you have a chance to possibly boost the unit you just shot at with FnP!

Tzeentch worked fine in 6th because you had actual volume of fire between Tzheralds buffing Horrors. Now, 7th has nerfed Witchfires in general into the ground, and our Warpflame based attacks are split between an unplayable psychic shooting mechanic AND the Shooting phase!

Tzeentch is still complete trash. Unless we get a formation that allows Pinkies to harness on a 2+, my army is still relegated to being a LoC delivery system, boring summon spam which gets me labeled a TFG, and Horrors who are better at flipping battle tanks and beating face than they are at ****ing MAGIC!

OK... so, is 2WC too much for a D shot? I don't personally think so, compared to the other things in the game, but maybe I'm wrong. I do agree they should have a psychic formation of some kind though...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

The effects are cumulative. If you have all 4 DPs alive at once, they get all the benefits.

Additionally if your Warlord is in the formation, all the Daemon Princes gain the Warlord's trait from what luchiban was saying.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Iuchiban wrote:
Let's go with Tzeetch:

Artefacts:

Paradox: AP4, Combat, Once per turn you can, after rolling for a psychic power turn the dices around. So, for example a roll of 1, 3 and 5, becomes 2, 4 and 6. 25 points

Unending grimorie: Bearer knows all the powers of the change discipline. 35 points

Scourge of souls: Combat, Fleshbane, AP is equal to the I of the target. Against vehicles is AP1. 15 points

Oracle disc: Disc of Tzeenth. At the beginning of your turn choose a unit in Reserves. That unit enters the game automatically. 35 points.

"Unable to translate": Bearer gets 3++ save, Every time bearer suffers a wound must take a Ld test. If failed is removed from game. 25 points.

Eternal staff. Combat, AP4, soulblaze or Template, S5, AP3 Soulblaze. 20 points

Paradox is trash. But then, every list I guess has to have a complete an utter stinker.

Unending Grimoire will depend entirely on the Warp Charge costs of the new powers... If the Str.D shot is WC3 this one's pretty bad. Any Warpflame based shooting requires volume of fire, and in general, Tzeentch powers cost far too many WC's to viably spam.

Scourge of Souls. Good for a DP, pointless on a LoC because the Boomstick is 5pts less and gives that magical S8 sweet spot.

Oracle Disc. Handy for Flamer bombs. Will have to see the wording of the relic itself - if it's *ANY* unit in reserves, then it can probably pull some nasty tricks. If it's only a Tzeentch unit which the bearer has to be a part of, then not so much...

3++ save one will be lamented as broken and OP by every single non-Daemon player.

Eternal Staff. Hopefully no Warpflame attached to the shooting attack. As a combat weapon, it's still useless for a LoC because the Boomstick is half the cost and again, better in every single way you can imagine!
Still probably an auto-buy for any Disc Tzheralds out there.

Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Hey Luchiban! Thank you!

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

I don't quite understand how paradox is supposed to work.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

Well fleshbane is better then s8 against T7 or higher and are identical against T6 and less.

Question: does the current tau empire book on the shelves include the taucurion and such or do you need to buy a separate campaign book to acompany it? And if it does include that stuff wouldn't there be a regular deamon book soon after this fancy one with the same core bells and whistles?

Lance845 wrote:
Question: does the current tau empire book on the shelves include the taucurion and such?

Yes it does, and we have no clue if CD & SW will ever get a fancy new cover ... cough cough I mean book later this month

So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Iuchiban wrote:
Let's go with Tzeetch:

Artefacts:

Paradox: AP4, Combat, Once per turn you can, after rolling for a psychic power turn the dices around. So, for example a roll of 1, 3 and 5, becomes 2, 4 and 6. 25 points

Unending grimorie: Bearer knows all the powers of the change discipline. 35 points

Scourge of souls: Combat, Fleshbane, AP is equal to the I of the target. Against vehicles is AP1. 15 points

Oracle disc: Disc of Tzeenth. At the beginning of your turn choose a unit in Reserves. That unit enters the game automatically. 35 points.

"Unable to translate": Bearer gets 3++ save, Every time bearer suffers a wound must take a Ld test. If failed is removed from game. 25 points.

Eternal staff. Combat, AP4, soulblaze or Template, S5, AP3 Soulblaze. 20 points

Paradox is trash. But then, every list I guess has to have a complete an utter stinker.

Unending Grimoire will depend entirely on the Warp Charge costs of the new powers... If the Str.D shot is WC3 this one's pretty bad. Any Warpflame based shooting requires volume of fire, and in general, Tzeentch powers cost far too many WC's to viably spam.

Scourge of Souls. Good for a DP, pointless on a LoC because the Boomstick is 5pts less and gives that magical S8 sweet spot.

Oracle Disc. Handy for Flamer bombs. Will have to see the wording of the relic itself - if it's *ANY* unit in reserves, then it can probably pull some nasty tricks. If it's only a Tzeentch unit which the bearer has to be a part of, then not so much...

3++ save one will be lamented as broken and OP by every single non-Daemon player.

Eternal Staff. Hopefully no Warpflame attached to the shooting attack. As a combat weapon, it's still useless for a LoC because the Boomstick is half the cost and again, better in every single way you can imagine!
Still probably an auto-buy for any Disc Tzheralds out there.

You're kidding, right? Paradox guarantees a cast of a warp charge 3 power on 5 dice. Guaranteed summoning every turn? Yes, please.

Edit: But will this stack with something like Unending Grimoire?
Edit 2: Or Be'lakor?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Forgot they were heavy. WC3 is a little pricy for the chariot and you can summon flamers all day long with the malefic primaris (assuming daemons still get malefic). Nevermind, that power is pointless.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Forgot they were heavy. WC3 is a little pricy for the chariot and you can summon flamers all day long with the malefic primaris (assuming daemons still get malefic). Nevermind, that power is pointless.

But, don;t you summon more flamers with the power? and yeah, thought the exalteds where relentless, kinda assumed they where MCs I guess. Woops.

 Swampmist wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Forgot they were heavy. WC3 is a little pricy for the chariot and you can summon flamers all day long with the malefic primaris (assuming daemons still get malefic). Nevermind, that power is pointless.

But, don;t you summon more flamers with the power? and yeah, thought the exalteds where relentless, kinda assumed they where MCs I guess. Woops.

Nope. 3 in both cases.

Daemon Decurión is called Daemonic Incursion

Special rules:
- Demonic corruption: Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed.
- Warp unleashed: Reroll instability
- Demonic Power: +1 or -1 to the Warp Strom table after rolling

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

No. The way the leak presents it, you have to swap *all* the dice. (the example roll of 1, 3 & 5, thus becomes 2, 4 & 6 instead)

*IF* that's how it works, it sucks monkey balls.

Yeah, you swap all the dice. Passes are fails and visa versa. It's impossible to failure on 5 dice.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

No. The way the leak presents it, you have to swap *all* the dice. (the example roll of 1, 3 & 5, thus becomes 2, 4 & 6 instead)

*IF* that's how it works, it sucks monkey balls.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

No. The way the leak presents it, you have to swap *all* the dice. (the example roll of 1, 3 & 5, thus becomes 2, 4 & 6 instead)

*IF* that's how it works, it sucks monkey balls.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

First, look at a dice. Notice that opposite sides always add up to 7. So, 1 is opposite 6, 2 is opposite 5, 3 is opposite 4. As you may notice, a WC pass is always opposite a WC fail.

So if you have Pass Fail Fail on a WC2 power, that all flips to Fail Pass Pass. And you pass. For free.

If you have a WC3 power and go Fail Fail Fail Pass Pass, you flip all and have 3 passes and 2 fails. You pass. For free.

It's an amazing item for 25 points.

if you don't have to declare you're using Paradox before rolling, and it works on any casting roll (not just the bearers), it's exceptional. It guarantees a 5 dice cast for WC3 (or a 3 dice for WC2, or a 1 dice for WC1) but if you make the roll first time (which you will half the time) you can skimp on dice for your next cast too. It simply makes casting far more cost efficient, as it removes risk. And you get this every turn. Unless there's a catch, it's an auto include.

I guarantee it will be bearer only or else within x" of bearer.

skarsol wrote:
I guarantee it will be bearer only or else within x" of bearer.

Both are fair.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

Seriously? Are you sure? The paradox literally lets you auto cast WC 1 powers and using 3 dice auto casts wc2 and with 5 dice you auto succeed WC3 powers. That's insanely useful, instead of rolling for powers with that psycher you essentially are just allocating dice to powers you won't to go off. If you don't think thats amazing I don't think there is a relic that could help you.

The 25 pt relic is also insane, it basically auto grimoires the bearer, letting you grim something else as well. Your rerolling 1's, oh and with the paradox your auto casting cursed earth btw.

Edit, I see others have also noticed well before me, glad to see most people get it. That thing is gross.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

Seriously? Are you sure? The paradox literally lets you auto cast WC 1 powers and using 3 dice auto casts wc2 and with 5 dice you auto succeed WC3 powers. That's insanely useful, instead of rolling for powers with that psycher you essentially are just allocating dice to powers you won't to go off. If you don't think thats amazing I don't think there is a relic that could help you.

The 25 pt relic is also insane, it basically auto grimoires the bearer, letting you grim something else as well. Your rerolling 1's, oh and with the paradox your auto casting cursed earth btw.

Edit, I see others have also noticed well before me, glad to see most people get it. That thing is gross.

I saw you said "letting you grim something else." Is the Grimoire still a thing?

 meep277 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

Seriously? Are you sure? The paradox literally lets you auto cast WC 1 powers and using 3 dice auto casts wc2 and with 5 dice you auto succeed WC3 powers. That's insanely useful, instead of rolling for powers with that psycher you essentially are just allocating dice to powers you won't to go off. If you don't think thats amazing I don't think there is a relic that could help you.

The 25 pt relic is also insane, it basically auto grimoires the bearer, letting you grim something else as well. Your rerolling 1's, oh and with the paradox your auto casting cursed earth btw.

Edit, I see others have also noticed well before me, glad to see most people get it. That thing is gross.

I saw you said "letting you grim something else." Is the Grimoire still a thing?

We don't know. But since all the new relics have their own point costs (as opposed to being a 0 option for the 30 pt Exalted Reward) they probably aren't replacing the Hellforged Artifacts at all.

Based on previous campaigns they'll either say that a model may not take Relics from different lists or that all characters in a detachment must only select items from the one list.

Cadian Detachments can select from both the Cadian Supplement and the regular Guard codex for both Relics and Warlord traits, so its not everything is an either/or.

Praying that the Paradox has a bubble range.. c'mon Ahriman

Probably not.

Anyway, I am anxiously awaiting the Grimoire edition being sold out. I mean, getting it.

I mean, watching it be sold out.

The model can't mix and match and take 2 relics from different lists though, right? (which I did also mention)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The model can't mix and match and take 2 relics from different lists though, right? (which I did also mention)

Correct, one or the other, not both.

Am I the only one that is disappointed to see that they didn't buff Be'lakor in some way or reduce his points?

Be'lakor is a level 5 now, I think.

 Brometheus wrote:
Be'lakor is a level 5 now, I think.

No, still 3.

Oh, ok. Sorry, looks like a 5 to me in that low-res pic I saw. Still wouldn't take him..

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The model can't mix and match and take 2 relics from different lists though, right? (which I did also mention)

Correct, one or the other, not both.

Wait, are we still talking about Cadian Detachments? Because Guard in a Cadian Detachment (which would include their new 'decurion-style' detachment) can mix and match relics from both the Cadian Supplement and Guard codex as they see fit. Whether they'll allow Demons to do the same I don't know, but there is precedence.