For those who don't want to click through to their garbage dump of a site:
Warhammer 40,000 moving to formations only? That is what this rumor says, and that it will come this year but will not be called the End Times.
Please give this a ton of salt right now. The information comes filtered down through a very reliable person. That says nothing for the original source, of which I have no additional information.
This is one of those hard to take pills, that I am not going to take, but may be worth the discussion. A new edition like this is what most of us 40k players fear could happen.
What would you think of a 40k that was formation based, with no points?
via anonymous sources
A very very salty rumor about 40k End Times. From an undisclosed message, it seems End Times will come through this year with another name(s), it will be (translate from spanish) more changes about game system than fluff. Expect to play only formations and the point system will be gone.
He doesn't make anything up, he reports what he hears, trust me he has a lot of sources and contacts. He knows what he is doing, and withholds a lot of information he gets
Korlandril wrote: He doesn't make anything up, he reports what he hears, trust me he has a lot of sources and contacts. He knows what he is doing, and withholds a lot of information he gets
Rubbish. He talks a lot of bollocks:
Natfka on Faeit 212 - Total rumors: (384 TRUE) / (832 FALSE) / (75 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
Korlandril wrote: He doesn't make anything up, he reports what he hears, trust me he has a lot of sources and contacts. He knows what he is doing, and withholds a lot of information he gets
Rubbish. He talks a lot of bollocks:
Natfka on Faeit 212 - Total rumors: (384 TRUE) / (832 FALSE) / (75 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
Looks like chance to me...
He just relays rumors, gathers them up, he is not a source himself and none of the rumours are his own so those stats prove nothing
Hey now! That's not fair! You have no evidence that natfka is making that up!
It could easily be someone else making it up. [rimshot]
That said, it would be stupidly easy to make this come true rules-wise.
Step 1: Rules say, "Your army must be composed entirely of formations."
Step 2: Make a formation that says, "Take whatever you want! (But you can't claim objectives, etc.)"
Is that different than how it is now? Technically yes, but effectively no.
He just relays rumors, gathers them up, he is not a source himself and none of the rumours are his own so those stats prove nothing
Relays rumours? Hardly. Unless he's willing to divide up rumours by different sources, he's still talking rubbish. And even then, it's still rubbish. Those stats show that his rumours are as reliable as BoLS (not very much) and are reliable indicator on whom to listen to (not natfka).
Well, looks like Unbound Armies might not be such a bad thing anymore.
Personally I think this is a terrible idea.
They would have to make alot more formations for every Faction, utilizing every model in their ranges. Complete with "free" bonuses.
Seeing what they did to Daemons, are we really gonna want to be FORCED to get 6+ units of troops? 3+ units of tacticals? 5+ Battlewagons? 15 Meganobz? A full company of guardsman?
I don't see that happening. I don't want GW telling me how I have to play my army.
Korlandril wrote: He doesn't make anything up, he reports what he hears, trust me he has a lot of sources and contacts. He knows what he is doing, and withholds a lot of information he gets
Rubbish. He talks a lot of bollocks:
Natfka on Faeit 212 - Total rumors: (384 TRUE) / (832 FALSE) / (75 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
Looks like chance to me...
He just relays rumors, gathers them up, he is not a source himself and none of the rumours are his own so those stats prove nothing
Actually, by serving as a rumor clearinghouse he is the source. The fact that he also just posts them as "anonymous rumors" does not help his reputation, as he seems to spend no time whatsoever vetting or attempting to vet these rumors.
Well the armies are so unbalanced now it won't make a huge amount of difference, nor even would lack of points - so meaningless have they become with the 7.5 edition codex's
Sadly it will likely see a purge of armies that have not had a chance to sell in favour of more Marines.
And the point of the numerous salty posts about natfka was?
Saying the same things nonetheless
No, you've now resorted to name calling instead of providing a rebuttal or refuting the stats we presented showing how Natfka is not a reliable source. Either put up or shut up.
Shall we leave the source of the rumour out of it and look at the actual proposal and discuss that???
While I don't think a fixed formation would ever work, I think GW might consider splitting the current codexes into much cheaper mini-codexes, that look like a formation with some options around a core list of units.
Assuming minimal fluff and pictures, these could be put out as cheap paperbacks or even as free downloads like the War Scrolls.
Since the cost of codexes definitely is a reason why some people have stopped playing, a budget codex idea might help to re-engage lapsed players. Though speaking for myself, I would also need the cost of the core rulebook to be drastically reduced.
I really don't understand the hate that Natfka gets. His site is a useful complilation of all the rumours out there. It is up to the reader to decide if something is true. He could improve his accuracy a lot if he omitted certain sites (Bols), but it is useful place to find out what people are talking about.
This particular rumour seems unlikely, but I do think some kind of 40k shake up is coming especially if GW wants to extend it for another 30 years.
This is one of those "no smoke without fire" ones for me.
Whilst I think it would be a big change for 40k and seems unlikely at first glance, as someone else mentioned, 40k has most definitely gone down the formation heavy release/suppliments and list builds of late.
Look at it purely through a GW lens - we want to sell more kits.
What might sell more - formation builds where you need X,Y and Z to either play and/or be competitive or standard CADs with points.
Sure I must take 2 tropps in a CAD but that can be a box of 20 quid Grots. With a new formation based build, GW can put in "army taxes" galore and make some formations ultra powerful ingame (at the expense of one having to shell out for the more expensive kits etc).
Yeah, I don't really get the griping either, but that's neither here nor there.
The number one complaint against AoS I hear online and in rl is how there's no balance mechanic. It made competitive gaming for competitive gamers that much harder, it made pick-up games with strangers and fellow hobbyists harder, and all but asked you to declare a game winner when playing your friends before the game began. Every story I hear about successful communities being built around AoS involve a home-brewed system of balancing it out.
I don't like the notion of having to make up my own rules to make GW's game work for them.
Now adversely as its' been pointed out, most everyone plays armies with available formations now as it is. If by going formation they mean just boxing the stuff that we already box together for us, maybe it's not as terrible as it sounds. Still terrible for anyone who wants to play units differently, but I doubt GW could so much as sneeze without a group of people saying they sneezed wrong.
...but the most recent edition has unbound, meaning nobody needs to pay a "troop tax" anymore. I just don't buy it. Maybe if Age of Sigmar had been some kind of runaway success, but I don't think anyone's suggesting it has been.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: I'd welcome the end times and the removal of points. Makes things much much easier.
Not for you.
It makes things easier for the GW development studio if they don't have to bother with that pesky "making a fair and balanced game" stuff, but there is no benefit to the player base to not have these tools available, when any idiot could simply ignore the points system if they and their opponent really think they're better off without it.
but the most recent edition has unbound, meaning nobody needs to pay a "troop tax" anymore.
True but unbound can go into the realm of really whacky (6 WKS etc if you like etc).
With formations, whilst they are very powerful (some of them), it gives GW more leeway to sell mid teir kits, mixed army kits and still give the option for super formations - like 6 WKs etc.
I.e. more kit sales overall.
Whilst formations have got a lot of negative reaction of late, I have zero doubt people have specifcally gone and bought kits to build them. Not everyone mind you but enough.
Now imagine kit sales where your only option is formations. Everyone will be doing it (or jump ship). Hence potentially way more sles for GW.
The game is much more difficult to plan for ahead of time without proper points limiting what people can bring to a game.
How do people in AoS play pick-up games?
I'd be fine if they wanted to split 40k into a small scale formation game and maintain the points system for games roughly 1k points and above though.
It would be nice to have overlapping rules that new players could play using a small number of models (and $$$) to learn rules and tactics that can be expanded to larger games.
Eldarain wrote: While I believe the FoC is most likely gone in the next edition I don't think they'll risk dropping points too.
If everyone got the 7th edition treatment, I could see the CAD going away and everyone just using formations.
There are a few ways I could see points getting streamlined, but I doubt they would go away. If you looks at the rules for BaC, there are no point costs for upgrades. The scenario tells you how many guys you bring, but if you want to take the meltagun or a flamer, that’s up to you. Both have pros/cons, and are reasonably balanced.
If40k gets the AoS treatment, (which I don’t think is going to happen anytime soon) there are worse things then using BaC as a template.
With GW including rules and formations in boxes, the hopeful side of my thinks they might revisit the codex system. They’d loose money on not selling the books, but would they get more in model sales by people impulse buying the latest kits? I know the cost of rules has stayed my hand from a number of projects.
the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
As in everything gets wiped out like Fantasy? No.
As in the story is moving? Kauyon was probably first (Chapter Master Shrike), but 40K is on the move.
You can ignore all the 40k-goes-AoS hysteria 'rumors'
Actually all I see is him saying that the setting is not getting deleted.
Theres no mention of the rules not being reduced to the level of green army men pew pewing.
AOS had at least a 2 year lead and given GW have complete blind faith in themselves 40k could have been getting setup since the early drop of 7th if not sooner.
GW are completley unable to consider that they are wrong about anything so even the disaster that is AOS would not stop them gutting 40k.
I don't see points going away (I hope), but I do see a different model for GW that could be possible (and not necessarily better).
You put the rules for units in WD as they come out, and in their box, and free online.
Then, you put the rules for formations in rulebooks and charge for them.
So the person who wants to buy the new models and add them to his army can't complain that GW is charging him tons of money for rules---but the person who does lay out for GW super-pricey rulebooks gets actual game benefits for doing so, as they can use the formations with all the extra bonuses.
Plus, GW doesn't have to put all the formations for any given army in a single book, since they are all 'optional'. So if you want your choice of, say, Space Marine formations, you have to buy every book that comes out with those formations, whether they are a majority or a minority of the content.
It's an approach that I wouldn't mind if these books were not so expensive (like older, paperback codexes). I bought ALL of those, just to read, keep abreast of the fluff, and see the pretty models. With current book pricing, though, it's something I would dread.
Plus, of course, once they had enough, say, Dark Eldar units, they could release a DE 'Codex' (aka as a collection of free rules), add a few pages of recycled background from past authors, and sell it as a book, too!
Again, this is purely speculation, but it's a way for GW to provide those 'free rules' we all like, without actually doing us much of a favor.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: I'd welcome the end times and the removal of points. Makes things much much easier.
Easier because you have no opponents? I have yet to hear anything good from the local AOS group who have completely rejected the game. I doubt this rumor but it does make me nervous as to GW intent. They can't come out and say "we are not going to AOS40K" because it would almost be admittance that AOS is failing. However not letting us know their intent makes me worried and limits my purchases as I don't want to get stuck with a crap ton of useless stuff.
An all formation thing I see as having potential. The current system is terrible. The number one problem I hear with units is that they cost too much. Points decrease won't help at this point. So might as well make dump the points system. Thousand sons too. They are ignored because they are not worth the points. Only way they can be of any use is in formations. The entire csm codex is poorly balanced because of points. Almost everything in that codex is too expensive. I can see gw limiting the number of detachmentts. Like 1 or 2 in a "small game".3 to 5 in the next size and so on. As well as one type of detachment to keep the wraith knight spam in line. Saying to adjust the points system is an excuse. Back when 8th fantasy came out the same amount of complaining happened over switching to percentages. That died out after a while.
All in all the current foc is flawed as of now. There needs to be a change.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes I'm not used to posting on a phone.
Moving away from the rules change discussion, I don't think it's unreasonable to think GW might be moving towards the end times. I haven't read too much about it, but as I understand it the latest SW release involves the 13th company returning, which has long been held up as a sign of the end times. I've also heard that the Dark Angels are moving to assault the Fang in response to the demonic incursions arising from the 13th company's appearances. Like the Rock itself is heading to Fenris. Two first founding chapters with an incredibly long and storied relationship coming into conflict? The only confirmed living Primarch being unknowingly being carried to his biggest bromances' backyard? It reeks of plot development. I know we've had loyalist on loyalist conflicts before, (GK and SW), but GW wouldn't divert the Dangles from fighting the 13th Black Crusade unless they were planning something big. It's not like it's a quick mop-up on the way to Cadia, it's MAJOR.
Do you really believe there is any difference between a restriction on points and a restriction on formations? The least useful formations will still be ignored.
miniature games REQUIRE restrictions of some type as do all games. You can't simply remove points, AoS proved that as people just gravitated to the better units using whatever rules AoS allowed.
So you think points are the only way to play a game? It's not like unbound where there are no limits. You still can only take a certain amount of stuff. There is no balance as is with the current foc.
Please let this not be true. I LOVE list building. This is the sole reason why I never tried AOS besides painting some of the models. Just keep the points, I can deal with formation only I guess
A major advance of the story with permanent changes to the lore would be welcomed, I just fear what comes after. Time of Ending in Fantasy was great stuff, but Age of Sigmar is a trainwreck.
I do too, but the current foc is just as limiting. It's not like formations are any more restricting. Some aren't good I will give you that but as a csm player it's incredibly frustrating trying to make the list I want under the current system.
Kirasu wrote: miniature games REQUIRE restrictions of some type as do all games. You can't simply remove points, AoS proved that as people just gravitated to the better units using whatever rules AoS allowed.
Right on. No one who plays 40k now with points gravitates toward the better units or formations...oh wait....
As has been said, this is a non-starter. There are no reliable rumor mongers giving this even a whiff of being true.
This seems dubious, especially considering that the Space Wolf and Daemon supplements still have points. Unless they release an 8th version in July, I doubt they'll do away with points entirely.
The 100 Days rumors is about the Warhammer Fest in May.
So, maybe, they will happily announce this change there. After all, it's a fest where, usually, new things happen. I have faith in that
This seems dubious, especially considering that the Space Wolf and Daemon supplements still have points. Unless they release an 8th version in July, I doubt they'll do away with points entirely.
Fantasy didn't have this problem. End Times models had their regular stats which were later changed to AoS
Most of the fun of building an army was taken out with formations. Formations are all about selling models and I have not enjoyed them one bit. Just as there have been many threads on the state of 40k due to formation hammer, I don't see this rumor coming true.
End times 40k? Yup I believe that. It will be a cash grab similar to the end times we saw before. Models obselete soon after? Who knows, but I don't see formation hammer becoming the new wave of 40k. If so, I will just play 6th edition from here on out.
Sad... I used to buy every limited edition codex, book, etc. I bought many models from almost every release. The last thing I bought was the LE tau campaign book in november. I was interested in this current campaigns book ad I play both factions, but it seems like a waste to spend $70-$200 on a book that will be obsolete or replaced in a year. Sorry gw, you burnt me out.
The 100 Days rumors is about the Warhammer Fest in May.
So, maybe, they will happily announce this change there. After all, it's a fest where, usually, new things happen. I have faith in that
This seems dubious, especially considering that the Space Wolf and Daemon supplements still have points. Unless they release an 8th version in July, I doubt they'll do away with points entirely.
Fantasy didn't have this problem. End Times models had their regular stats which were later changed to AoS
Guess which was selling better? 40k wasn't hemorrhaging money the way Fantasy was.
Ahem, anyway; it's unlikely given the source, but everyone said that about AoS as well and, well, here we are. Honestly I mostly feel for Xenos players if it happens, Imperial players who like proper wargames with actual army construction rules in the older 40K style can resort to the excellent Heresy army lists from FW. I suspect if GW go through with this you'll find a lot of gaming groups hacking together 6th or 7th edition alien codices with those. Providing they don't just say f-it and walk away, of course, ET/AoS proved there are in fact things GW can do to drive away even its most ardent fans.
As anyones who knows a GW rep can attest, AOS is a disaster salewise. If they had plans to AOSify 40k, it went out the window after they saw the terrible reception AOS got. Couple this with an unknown source from a know charlatan, and I can confidently say that this is bullgak
streetsamurai wrote: As anyones who knows a GW rep can attest, AOS is a disaster salewise. If they had plans to AOSify 40k, it went out the window after they saw the terrible reception AOS got. Couple this with an unknown source from a know charlatan, and I can confidently say that this is bullgak
No offense, but the "anyone who knows X can attest" line doesn't make you as reliable as you might think.
streetsamurai wrote: As anyones who knows a GW rep can attest, AOS is a disaster salewise. If they had plans to AOSify 40k, it went out the window after they saw the terrible reception AOS got. Couple this with an unknown source from a know charlatan, and I can confidently say that this is bullgak
No offense, but the "anyone who knows X can attest" line doesn't make you as reliable as you might think.
None taken Rule 1 is the first rule for a reason, let's keep it polite
streetsamurai wrote: As anyones who knows a GW rep can attest, AOS is a disaster salewise. If they had plans to AOSify 40k, it went out the window after they saw the terrible reception AOS got. Couple this with an unknown source from a know charlatan, and I can confidently say that this is bullgak
No offense, but the "anyone who knows X can attest" line doesn't make you as reliable as you might think.
None taken, since you're pretty much the most insignifiant poster on this site.
You spelled "insignificant" wrong.
If you want to be insulting at least have the decency to spell your insult correctly.
Wow, I see some posters are losing their maturity level to have adult discussions. Let's rign in it and stop personal attacks on other posters (I think there are dakka policies on that....) But hell I am not a mod, just trying to keep the peace.
I agree about AOS, blanket statements are far inaccurate and show inept bias. AOS has raised fantasy sales in central and northern Wisconsin. Maybe it wasn't accepted well everywhere, but it was accepted better than fantasy (which had died here due to balance issues, etc). However, this is not an AOS thread so.....
I don't think they would ever turn 40k into an AOS skirmish type game. In fact, the formations have turned 40k from a medium scale skirmish game into a higher points wargame. 40k and space marines are GW's bread and butter, I don't think they would do anything like that.
Moving the story forward? I have heard rumors of this for a year now. Rumrs of Primarchs returning, chaos exploding, etc. Will it happen? Who knows, I just hope 40k doesn't delve further into formation hammer. I'd be fine if 40k stays in it's scale but either goes back to a FOC or becomes more of an unbound style (with minimal restrictions) for list building purposes.
@455_PAR: as you said, they wouldn't turn 40k into a skirmish game, but then having it formation-based would most likely increase the scale of the game even more. I think in this regard, it would fit GW's MO.
I could see this happening with points being something the company doesn't have any interest in anymore. It's all about *forging the narrative and cooperative games (whatever the hell that means in a competitive game). GW could leave the points behind and tell fans to use the formations for rough army building, and repeat what they did with AOSexcept they could still sell books of formations. The new Space Wolves book seems to be going this direction.
Forgeworld could then be left to do the "legacy" points thing. Mind you, I think this a terrible plan, but I don't see it outside the realm of possibility.
I don't think they'll move forward with something that drastic with the product that keeps them in business. And I really don't think they will move this direction now that Roundtree is in the drivers seat.
I'd love to see them evolving the story line bit by bit. Campaign books that actually mean something. I've enjoyed the Baal, Damacoles, and I'll probably enjoy the Fenris campaign books. It's one of my few regular purchases from GW now that I'm happy with my enormous Iron Warrior/Dark Mechanicus army.
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think they'll move forward with something that drastic with the product that keeps them in business. And I really don't think they will move this direction now that Roundtree is in the drivers seat.
I'd love to see them evolving the story line bit by bit. Campaign books that actually mean something. I've enjoyed the Baal, Damacoles, and I'll probably enjoy the Fenris campaign books. It's one of my few regular purchases from GW now that I'm happy with my enormous Iron Warrior/Dark Mechanicus army.
What you say is wise, but then again, all those decisions GW have made before are mind boggling, so who knows what GW will do. This seems something that GW would do.
Who knows this is something GW would do, "don't like Unbound, then here you go." Remember the words "be careful what you wish for, for you may just get it, but not in the way you want."
Kanluwen wrote:
Oh look, it's natfka! Making more crap up!
Prove it. I mean PROVE IT. I haven't seen one rumour from Natfka yet that is made up. He never gives out rumours, just collects them and relays from what others say. If I am wrong please show me a rumour that Natfka made, MADE, not what he got from others, and I will believe you.
You understand that by continually citing things as "anonymous sources" that's impossible to prove or disprove, right?
I can start posting things that I've made up as "having gotten from anonymous sources", you'll never be able to prove or disprove it.
Prove it. I mean PROVE IT. I haven't seen one rumour from Natfka yet that is made up. He never gives out rumours, just collects them and relays from what others say. If I am wrong please show me a rumour that Natfka made, MADE, not what he got from others, and I will believe you.
I don't see Natfka do anything wrong, he just collects rumours just like Dakka does. Are you going to start bad mouthing Dakka now?
You are comparing a blog run by one person who posts rumors to a forum with many users who post rumors.
Yes, he does relay stuff from their sources, but so do many of the other rumour mongers on the tracker. Ultimately if their sources are wrong they are wrong, and if those sources are 'anonymous' as his always are they can't be tracked themselves so instead the one who relayed the information for them is tracked in their stead.
When it comes to Dakka, users who post rumours are also tracked if Petre knows. If they have an anonymous source they are tracked in their stead.
So while Natfka may not be making up the rumours himself, his sources almost certainly are and he should know by now not to trust everything he's told by them; and yet he still posts their stuff for the views and ad revenue.
Accolade wrote: @455_PAR: as you said, they wouldn't turn 40k into a skirmish game, but then having it formation-based would most likely increase the scale of the game even more. I think in this regard, it would fit GW's MO.
I could see this happening with points being something the company doesn't have any interest in anymore. It's all about for in the narrative and cooperative games (whatever the hell that means in a competitive game). GW could leave the points behind and tell fans to use the formations for rough army building, and repeat what they did with AOSexcept they could still sell books of formations. The new Space Wolves book seems to be going this direction.
A "competitive" game can still have cooperative elements. To use an example, look at things like the Terrorist Hunt mode in the Rainbow Six games. They don't NEED to track scores as the objective is for the players to cooperatively eliminate the AI.
By tracking scores though, you introduce an element of competition.
It's not a 1:1 comparison mind you, but I could see GW referring to "cooperative" gameplay meaning that players have to engage each other more beyond just "I have X points of my army. Let's play a game". AoS is a game where more often than not I've been texting the person I'm playing a game with days in advance, discussing which mission we want to play or the armies we want to use.
In one stunning swoop, invalidation of whole armies unless they are lucky in the bingo sweep stakes and happen to own a formation from a dataslate.
Well, if this doom-speaking happens... which I'm not entirely convinced by. I would be incensed, nay outraged! but I'm beyond caring at this point. I have pretty models from a number of uncompetitive armies, I doubt more rule-abuse will cause anything more then a shrug, a thoughtful pout and a tut as I pick up the Saga rulebook.
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think they'll move forward with something that drastic with the product that keeps them in business. And I really don't think they will move this direction now that Roundtree is in the drivers seat.
I'd love to see them evolving the story line bit by bit. Campaign books that actually mean something. I've enjoyed the Baal, Damacoles, and I'll probably enjoy the Fenris campaign books. It's one of my few regular purchases from GW now that I'm happy with my enormous Iron Warrior/Dark Mechanicus army.
What you say is wise, but then again, all those decisions GW have made before are mind boggling, so who knows what GW will do. This seems something that GW would do.
Who knows this is something GW would do, "don't like Unbound, then here you go." Remember the words "be careful what you wish for, for you may just get it, but not in the way you want."
Meh, like I said. I have more faith in what we've seen out of GW since about 3 months after Roundtree took over (enough time for his changes to start being implemented). So while I could see Kirby and his yes men being stupid enough to do something like this I can't see it out of the current CEO as his current track record is solid. Let's look at it;
-Discounted starter boxes
-Formation of a "Specialist" studio under FW (yes, more for one off board games but still a departure and a good one)
-Reimplementation of easy starter hobby kits coming in the fall
-Actual advertisement outside of their current method of doing business
-A not ridiculous financial statement from the CEO that doesn't sound like he's burying his head in the sand or crazy
There are other things that might be an extension of previous direction or his direct impact but we can't be sure. Most of the above though seems to be things implemented. Essentially going the no points AoS route seems unlikely with Roundtree in charge.
Kanluwen wrote:
Oh look, it's natfka! Making more crap up!
Prove it. I mean PROVE IT. I haven't seen one rumour from Natfka yet that is made up. He never gives out rumours, just collects them and relays from what others say. If I am wrong please show me a rumour that Natfka made, MADE, not what he got from others, and I will believe you.
You understand that by continually citing things as "anonymous sources" that's impossible to prove or disprove, right?
I can start posting things that I've made up as "having gotten from anonymous sources", you'll never be able to prove or disprove it.
Yeah once I figured out that was the answer, I deleted my post after realizing, why you may have said it. I guess I didn't delete my post fast enough.
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think they'll move forward with something that drastic with the product that keeps them in business. And I really don't think they will move this direction now that Roundtree is in the drivers seat.
I'd love to see them evolving the story line bit by bit. Campaign books that actually mean something. I've enjoyed the Baal, Damacoles, and I'll probably enjoy the Fenris campaign books. It's one of my few regular purchases from GW now that I'm happy with my enormous Iron Warrior/Dark Mechanicus army.
What you say is wise, but then again, all those decisions GW have made before are mind boggling, so who knows what GW will do. This seems something that GW would do.
Who knows this is something GW would do, "don't like Unbound, then here you go." Remember the words "be careful what you wish for, for you may just get it, but not in the way you want."
Meh, like I said. I have more faith in what we've seen out of GW since about 3 months after Roundtree took over (enough time for his changes to start being implemented). So while I could see Kirby and his yes men being stupid enough to do something like this I can't see it out of the current CEO as his current track record is solid. Let's look at it;
-Discounted starter boxes
-Formation of a "Specialist" studio under FW (yes, more for one off board games but still a departure and a good one)
-Reimplementation of easy starter hobby kits coming in the fall
-Actual advertisement outside of their current method of doing business
-A not ridiculous financial statement from the CEO that doesn't sound like he's burying his head in the sand or crazy
There are other things that might be an extension of previous direction or his direct impact but we can't be sure. Most of the above though seems to be things implemented. Essentially going the no points AoS route seems unlikely with Roundtree in charge.
I would wish Roundtree would tell his team to make a clear comprehensive balanced rule set. I guess time will tell if he has indeed did this. I have hope as well with the changes being done, but with hope leads to disappointment. (Nid player. ) So it's just wait and see.
Ahem, anyway; it's unlikely given the source, but everyone said that about AoS as well and, well, here we are. Honestly I mostly feel for Xenos players if it happens, Imperial players who like proper wargames with actual army construction rules in the older 40K style can resort to the excellent Heresy army lists from FW. I suspect if GW go through with this you'll find a lot of gaming groups hacking together 6th or 7th edition alien codices with those. Providing they don't just say f-it and walk away, of course, ET/AoS proved there are in fact things GW can do to drive away even its most ardent fans.
This! Your points mirror my own thoughts on this. No one figured WFB would get the "make over" that it did and yet, here we are. GW is so blind to their own folly, they will continue to drive customers and players away by making foolish decisions like AOS...
Being one of the few players who switched from 40k to AoS when it came out last summer, I would say that if GW goes this route with 40k,there will be fan made point systems in place within a few days of the switch over as I'm sure we would have strong rumors of its happening.
AoS is doing just fine with several solid point systems in place like the SDK warscroll builder,Azyr comp,Dakkas own PPC system.I rarely have a club member comment on a point value being "out of wack".The usual issues in setting up games/events is how we will deal with summoning,should we play battleplans or use one of the event comp scenario systems..how big of a point value to set giving the time session...stuff like this.Also a balanced game of AoS can be had on the fly with just a wound count and hero/monster limit.Though for events this is usually not used.
Ive even played the "bring what you want" games and thrown down units by eyeballing it...game was still pretty close.Just have to watch out for the gonads that want to play with all monsters and heros,lol.
Now this going to a "formation only" type system does seem to be really strange...there has to be more to this than just that...even so,it wouldn't be long at all before comp systems were in place.
Minijack wrote: Being one of the few players who switched from 40k to AoS when it came out last summer, I would say that if GW goes this route with 40k,there will be fan made point systems in place within a few days of the switch over as I'm sure we would have strong rumors of its happening.
AoS is doing just fine with several solid point systems in place like the SDK warscroll builder,Azyr comp,Dakkas own PPC system.I rarely have a club member comment on a point value being "out of wack".The usual issues in setting up games/events is how we will deal with summoning,should we play battleplans or use one of the event comp scenario systems..how big of a point value to set giving the time session...stuff like this.Also a balanced game of AoS can be had on the fly with just a wound count and hero/monster limit.Though for events this is usually not used.
Ive even played the "bring what you want" games and thrown down units by eyeballing it...game was still pretty close.Just have to watch out for the gonads that want to play with all monsters and heros,lol.
Now this going to a "formation only" type system does seem to be really strange...there has to be more to this than just that...even so,it wouldn't be long at all before comp systems were in place.
Here's the thing though - a lot of folk don't play the main GW systems because they're brilliant rules or the ones they most enjoy playing, they play them because they provide a simple, widely-used framework that in theory allows you to walk into a GW store in England, a gaming club in Sweden, or an FLGS in America, and get a reasonably balanced game with no more effort than asking "who wants to play 40k 1.5k points?". Every time GW has moved away from that, they've shed players; they brought in ever larger MCs and FMCs and lost customers, they crammed Apoc and Escalation into standard 40K and lost customers, they brought in decurions and formations that allowed for ludicrous ally shenanigans and lost customers, over in Fantasy they brought out AoS which by most accounts is dying on its arse due to not only abandoning even the pretense of traditional army construction and balance but also throwing away the other main reason people have stuck with GW even when they made bad decisions, the background.
Now you could fix all of those issues if you wanted, but at some point people are going to look at the amount of effort required to essentially rewrite GW's rules(or find someone else's rewrite that you find acceptable), and then persuade the people you game with to adopt your particular take on things, and say "feth it, if I have to deal with hosting a UN summit to get everyone on the same page rules-wise, I'll just use my models and the GW fiction I like with any one of a dozen better rulesets" or "feth it, I'm going to start collecting Darklands/WarmaHordes/KoW/Warpath/etc".
GW should be trying to broaden the appeal of their products, not artificially limit it either through sheer laziness/cost-cutting or because they've decided to go off in a huff if the customers don't have exactly the same attitude towards gaming that the Studio guys do - a fairly balanced set of core rules with a rational and codified army selection system is objectively the best way to write a wargame because it provides the most options, both for the creators and their customers. With a solid foundation to build upon the company can create scenarios and campaign systems that actually work with much less effort, and it gives customers the choice to play the game in a tight, formal way or in a more relaxed or story-focused fashion among friends.
Which is the main thing to think about; certain people keep making this same "Well I actually like searching out a group of like-minded gamers and contacting people days/weeks in advance and negotiating all the aspects of the game, so AoS/all-formation 40K is great for me!" argument, but it's a nonsense, because you could and indeed many did do that perfectly well under a codified points system. That way of gaming functions perfectly well whether you're using a solidly-written tight set of rules with points, a messy blob that once attempted to be the previous but has become too bloated like 40K, a completely incoherent blob like AoS who's motto seems to be "well, see, they's less rules and more guidelines innit guv", or the set of rules your teenage self scrawled down in your school jotters one day while you were bored - people who prefer or who's circumstances necessitate other styles, meanwhile, are steadily excluded/driven off each time the core, baseline, everyone-uses-these-as-a-starting-point rules steps down a rung on that ladder.
And before your mind jumps straight to "yeah, why should I care, I got mine Jack"; less customers for GW means higher prices for you, means less new people to game with, can even mean whole areas going dead for your preferred game as we saw sometimes in the latter days of GW's mismanagement of WHFB.
While GW has been making positive strides regarding expanding its marketshare through a variety of new starters and the reawakening of additional systems, there hasn't been anything showing a shift in thinking with the rules for 40k (to which I feel these rumors could be consistent). Of course I realize that there is some time involved with these books (although that period can't be that long when the books drop every couple years now), but judging by the Space Wolves book, we're going full-bore into formation-palooza. Time will tell with future books, but I think 40k is going to go through some more milking attempts before GW notices another udder fall off the cow.
I can't believe their are people here who like Formations and the No-points AoS systems. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks this is a good direction for 40k are not gamers, They were just people who want to put their modles on the table saying "pew pew your dead".
I already had my fill of the disaster that was 5th ed apoc, IMHO a experiment that failed and GW needs to stop trying to force it into all their games. Age of Sigmar sold well when it 1st launched, but at this point all it did was take fantasy out behind the shed and finished the job.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: I'd welcome the end times and the removal of points. Makes things much much easier.
Not for you.
It makes things easier for the GW development studio if they don't have to bother with that pesky "making a fair and balanced game" stuff, but there is no benefit to the player base to not have these tools available, when any idiot could simply ignore the points system if they and their opponent really think they're better off without it.
exactly, no point cost is just a lazy management decisions to justify incompetence. As you said, you can simply ignore them if you wish so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lockark wrote: I can't believe their are people here who like Formations and the No-points AoS systems. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks this is a good direction for 40k are not gamers, They were just people who want to put their modles on the table saying "pew pew your dead".
I already had my fill of the disaster that was 5th ed apoc, IMHO a experiment that failed and GW needs to stop trying to force it into all their games. Age of Sigmar sold well when it 1st launched, but at this point all it did was take fantasy out behind the shed and finished the job.
Agreed, formations are a disaster imo, and only taking the game down. Would have been so much better with more restrictive (and varied) FOC (for example, a FOC for speed freaks in which you need to take at least 3 bikerz squad and all vehicle need to take the "red paint" upgrade).
BTW, great post Yodhrin. The only reason I "left" Confrontation (a far better game imo) and started a 40k army was that it was too much of an hassle to find players and to balance armies. If I have to argue and bargain (as well as go through them) about which of the numerous fans made supplement to use before each game, then I'm out (though I may very well be out once PP figures out if they want to make plastic, metal or resin mini considering the current emphasis on formations and unbalance)
While I can see why people think that because AOS bombed worse than Tab clear that 40 k is safe, that at best is niave or at worse willfully ignorant.
GW are institutionally unable to admit they have made a mistake as the board beleive they are infallible and this is the one thing that has not changed with the new ceo.
AoS's issues with sales are down to poor store managers is the offical company line with a slight helping of the customers cannot grasp how innovative it is.
I could almost believe this and i havent played 40k for few years or bought anything,but i have been still kicking around idea building a All Fw Force.Now i play Historicals.
Here is my thoughts,
1 The whole 30k general rulebook release rules supplement, and with this Gw get the Marine dominated market
2 Deptmart and Hobby shop new box sets with paints, All they would have to do is throw a stat card in it. Then all they have to do is something like this for a new 40k box set . http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=5089 Also this will help them bring in the younger crowd,All they would need would be a kewl cartoon now to go with it. As for the rumor not sure.But i could see it happening.but i will take xtra Salt for now.
Just my thoughts as a old 40k player,
It's disappointing to see Forge World nailing the way lists should be made with the HH series whilst GW Proper flounders around with their increasingly complicated special rule on top of special rule formation nonsense.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: I'd welcome the end times and the removal of points. Makes things much much easier.
Not for you.
It makes things easier for the GW development studio if they don't have to bother with that pesky "making a fair and balanced game" stuff, but there is no benefit to the player base to not have these tools available, when any idiot could simply ignore the points system if they and their opponent really think they're better off without it.
exactly, no point cost is just a lazy management decisions to justify incompetence. As you said, you can simply ignore them if you wish so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lockark wrote: I can't believe their are people here who like Formations and the No-points AoS systems. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks this is a good direction for 40k are not gamers, They were just people who want to put their modles on the table saying "pew pew your dead".
I already had my fill of the disaster that was 5th ed apoc, IMHO a experiment that failed and GW needs to stop trying to force it into all their games. Age of Sigmar sold well when it 1st launched, but at this point all it did was take fantasy out behind the shed and finished the job.
Agreed, formations are a disaster imo, and only taking the game down. Would have been so much better with more restrictive (and varied) FOC (for example, a FOC for speed freaks in which you need to take at least 3 bikerz squad and all vehicle need to take the "red paint" upgrade).
BTW, great post Yodhrin. The only reason I "left" Confrontation (a far better game imo) and started a 40k army was that it was too much of an hassle to find players and to balance armies. If I have to argue and bargain (as well as go through them) about which of the numerous fans made supplement to use before each game, then I'm out (though I may very well be out once PP figures out if they want to make plastic, metal or resin mini considering the current emphasis on formations and unbalance)
Was about to say I think exactly the same as you do, then I realised who you are.
For me, the ones claiming that removing pointcost is a great idea are the same kind of persons that think that Malevich white on white is a great piece of art. Taking lazyness and complacency for brilliance.
@Yodhrin, exalted sir. I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I have to say, I do love the occasional game of Apocalypse, it's like playing GTA in cheat mode; very cathartic to have all of the weapons and go to town, but only once in a while.
I've just had a bit of a left field thought; for a few years GW have seemed to be on the same trajectory as D&D took:
1) Have popular, successful, world-renowned game;
2) Radically change said game without understanding why your customers like it in the first place (4th ed);
3) Watch sales tank and upstart competitors muscling in (pathfinder);
4) Realise you need to go back to what you originally had ASAP
5) Conduct huge market research/open beta to develop new game that is actually what you customers want (5th ed)
If this comparison holds true, I posit that GW are just around the start of point 4, particularly with Mr Rowntree coming in. I wonder if these rumours (if there's even a shred of truth to them) tie up with the cryptic "100 days" announcement. I wonder if GW are actually going to open up some sort of beta to develop the next edition of 40k.?
As others have observed, balancing 40k seems to be either too hard or straight up beyond the capabilities of the studio at the moment, so what better way to sidestep that problem and rebuild your relationship than by letting your customers help you do it.
This "unpointed formations" could be trial rules for evaluation.
Total speculation, probably untrue, but it would be wild if they did.
Jadenim wrote: @Yodhrin, exalted sir. I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I have to say, I do love the occasional game of Apocalypse, it's like playing GTA in cheat mode; very cathartic to have all of the weapons and go to town, but only once in a while.
I've just had a bit of a left field thought; for a few years GW have seemed to be on the same trajectory as D&D took:
1) Have popular, successful, world-renowned game;
2) Radically change said game without understanding why your customers like it in the first place (4th ed);
3) Watch sales tank and upstart competitors muscling in (pathfinder);
4) Realise you need to go back to what you originally had ASAP
5) Conduct huge market research/open beta to develop new game that is actually what you customers want (5th ed)
If this comparison holds true, I posit that GW are just around the start of point 4, particularly with Mr Rowntree coming in. I wonder if these rumours (if there's even a shred of truth to them) tie up with the cryptic "100 days" announcement. I wonder if GW are actually going to open up some sort of beta to develop the next edition of 40k.?
As others have observed, balancing 40k seems to be either too hard or straight up beyond the capabilities of the studio at the moment, so what better way to sidestep that problem and rebuild your relationship than by letting your customers help you do it.
This "unpointed formations" could be trial rules for evaluation.
Total speculation, probably untrue, but it would be wild if they did.
That's the thing that's so maddening though, as HBMC said, they could literally walk across to the FW studio and say "Hey, yo, walk us through your thinking on the Heresy list designs" and fix most of their issues if they took the advice on board. I mean crikey, it's hardly as if FW's superior rules design for 30K has led to them being unable to push big expensive kits, so it's not as if GW's apparent present main strategy for 40K is incompatible with solid rules.
I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I keep seeing this argument. It is tripe. Adding rules and removing/modifying rules are exactly as easy or as difficult as each other. They are fundamentally the same thing - changing the way the game plays for some reason. In both cases someone has to come up with the change and a reason it will make a good game then persuade someone to play that.
Come up with rule you want to delete/modify/add.
Discuss with opponent.
If the other guy will happily discuss removing or modifying stuff then it is just as likely he will happily discuss adding stuff. If he won't add stuff 'cos he plays by the rules as they are then he probably won't remove/modify either.
I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I keep seeing this argument. It is tripe. Adding rules and removing/modifying rules are exactly as easy or as difficult as each other. They are fundamentally the same thing - changing the way the game plays for some reason. In both cases someone has to come up with the change and a reason it will make a good game then persuade someone to play that.
Come up with rule you want to delete/modify/add.
Discuss with opponent.
If the other guy will happily discuss removing or modifying stuff then it is just as likely he will happily discuss adding stuff. If he won't add stuff 'cos he plays by the rules as they are then he probably won't remove/modify either.
Maybe they mean if there isn't a base ruleset to add to and modify then it's hard to come up with one from scratch?
If so I agree with them if not I agree with you
If the models remained I would just use a modified version of 7th but if they feth up with rules and start discontinuing kits I would be pushed into other games like Bolt Action which I have looked at with interest but been preoccupied with my 40k army to actually start collecting
I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I keep seeing this argument. It is tripe. Adding rules and removing/modifying rules are exactly as easy or as difficult as each other. They are fundamentally the same thing - changing the way the game plays for some reason. In both cases someone has to come up with the change and a reason it will make a good game then persuade someone to play that.
Come up with rule you want to delete/modify/add.
Discuss with opponent.
If the other guy will happily discuss removing or modifying stuff then it is just as likely he will happily discuss adding stuff. If he won't add stuff 'cos he plays by the rules as they are then he probably won't remove/modify either.
Really!!! you don't see how it's easier to simply say "screw the points for this game", than to introduce a point cost for every models and options in the game ? HInt: the latter would take me about two seconds, while the former would take me weeks, if not months of work.
If this comparison holds true, I posit that GW are just around the start of point 4, particularly with Mr Rowntree coming in. I wonder if these rumours (if there's even a shred of truth to them) tie up with the cryptic "100 days" announcement. I wonder if GW are actually going to open up some sort of beta to develop the next edition of 40k.?
That was my guess. They will introduce either player/or store play testing. 100 represented days to announcement or 100 players/stores.
The reply in the below image then had me double-down on the idea:
Spoiler:
I believe they used to playtest until someone leaked the rules. They got upset. Brought it back in-house.
With AoS being open/free with rules the idea of more playtesting is not out of question. If Nintendo can embrace the Internet GW can embrace external playtesting.
Zywus wrote: Playtesting that GW will actually listen to?
I'll believe that when I see it.
I'll make this comment and leave it at that before I push the derailing of this News thread.
Add seasoning as required; and as expected.
With the release of AoS, they provided free rules and said they were open to feedback.
Since then they've made:
- Comments to clear up if Stormcasts can be male or female (yes)
- Added clarity about which rules to use at the beginning of campaign books
- Added variations on Sudden Death in scenarios
- Added some wording in regards to summoning (though not the core rule itself)
- Began to remove "silly" rules; i.e. Masque rule is now based on movement rather than dancing
I expect they'll make a change to measuring on bases once everything has been repackaged/re-released/retired.
It's nothing major, I agree. But there's been changes quicker than before. And the way rules are released allows them to make changes quicker. Maybe the design team were told FAQs don't "sell" so where is the immediate value? Their answer was to work around that and use campaign books/warscrolls/free rules they could do yearly refreshes of.
I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I keep seeing this argument. It is tripe. Adding rules and removing/modifying rules are exactly as easy or as difficult as each other. They are fundamentally the same thing - changing the way the game plays for some reason. In both cases someone has to come up with the change and a reason it will make a good game then persuade someone to play that.
Come up with rule you want to delete/modify/add.
Discuss with opponent.
If the other guy will happily discuss removing or modifying stuff then it is just as likely he will happily discuss adding stuff. If he won't add stuff 'cos he plays by the rules as they are then he probably won't remove/modify either.
That is a very stupid argument. It is far, far easier for two people to say "Let's play without points." "Okay!" than to go through an entire book saying "I think this is worth 20 points." "No, I think it should be worth 25 points." "But it's not strong enough to be worth 25 points." "Yes, it is." "No, it isn't."
Having a single presumably competent games design studio do that once and just tell us what points cost they found to be fair is far better than expecting tens of thousands of players to do it every time they find a new opponent.
I'll make this comment and leave it at that before I push the derailing of this News thread.
Add seasoning as required; and as expected.
With the release of AoS, they provided free rules and said they were open to feedback.
Since then they've made:
- Comments to clear up if Stormcasts can be male or female (yes)
When did they offically state this as not seen it byond a BL authors blog?
In addition, Shane, using that as your first example doesn't exactly fill me with hope that they're straightening up their clattering heap.
That was first because I've just read that chapter of the new campaign book. It's also not a game changer but it's something in regards to a possible climate change down there. But this is my last comment to get back on topic.
Da Butcha wrote: the person who does lay out for GW super-pricey rulebooks gets actual game benefits for doing so, as they can use the formations with all the extra bonuses.
So it would be LITERALLY pay to win? No thanks. I'd rather 40k just get mechanically sigmared. The fluff can stay or go. I prefer AoS background to the old world so I wouldn't mind an overhaul but the current setting, with all its holes and uncreative grimdark for the sake of grimdark, is okay too.
This would be awesome. You know why?
#1 40k/9th Age Fanbased rulebook
#2 I save lots of money and time when I quit this game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: #3 An opportunity to "short" a foreign stock... GW PLC when they feth up the company's bread and butter game. Coke Classic vs New Coke for all you 80s children. Lets make our #1 selling beverage taste more like the #2 selling beverage. Doesnt that seem similar?
doktor_g wrote: This would be awesome. You know why?
#1 40k/9th Age Fanbased rulebook
Not sure if this will come true
While the Fantasy Community has always been more open minded about house rules, the 40k community of some country’s is very strict and will not accept anything which is not from GW, (doesn't matte how bad the rules are).
But maybe years of work will finally have a chance to reach some more people out there before everyone switch back to "the new rules are not so bad as everybody say"
I don't understand why some people can't see that it is very easy to ignore/modify rules to suit a narrative, but almost impossible to introduce rules where none exist.
I keep seeing this argument. It is tripe. Adding rules and removing/modifying rules are exactly as easy or as difficult as each other. They are fundamentally the same thing - changing the way the game plays for some reason. In both cases someone has to come up with the change and a reason it will make a good game then persuade someone to play that.
Come up with rule you want to delete/modify/add.
Discuss with opponent.
If the other guy will happily discuss removing or modifying stuff then it is just as likely he will happily discuss adding stuff. If he won't add stuff 'cos he plays by the rules as they are then he probably won't remove/modify either.
As someone who regularly writes fan rules for the systems I like: total, utter manure.
I, as an individual and an amateur with no studio resources and no playtesters beyond a couple of mates, am not in any way even remotely capable of coming up with rules of the same quality as a company like GW if they actually try. And even if I and most other people actually could just fart out an entire, balanced, system-wide army selection system complete with points values for hundreds of units across over a dozen factions, pretending that doing so would only require as much effort as it takes to put together a single, short, unbalanced scenario for thematic/"historical" campaign games is a joke.
And you must know that, it's impossible to not know that, which leads to the inescapable conclusion that you're just being willfully disingenuous.
oni wrote: I sincerely hope that this "no points formation" idea is GW's way of resurrecting W40K Apocalypse.
It's brilliant. It's exactly what they can do / need to do to make Apocalypse relevant again.
Imagine... W40K Apocalypse played with no point formations only... OMG, it would be amazing.
As someone else brought this up also, the question still remain.. What would this possibly change? Math is hard and thats what makes points a problem? There is no functional difference in balance between restricting points vs restricting # of formations.
A formation of a Warhound titan is better than a terrible baneblade for example. Its better in points and better when you restrict via formations.
Well, it'll be interesting if this happens. I've a pile of 40K stuff gathering dust from the last edition change, but if they go no-points, I'm pretty much done.
Azazelx wrote: Because there'd be a hell of a lot fewer pick up games of 40k if that went through.
Or games of 40k in general. With no points the game is an unplayable mess. The only thing giving people any hope of having a fun game would be the memory of what things used to cost giving at least a rough estimate of what they should cost in the new game.
oni wrote: I sincerely hope that this "no points formation" idea is GW's way of resurrecting W40K Apocalypse.
It's brilliant. It's exactly what they can do / need to do to make Apocalypse relevant again.
Imagine... W40K Apocalypse played with no point formations only... OMG, it would be amazing.
As someone else brought this up also, the question still remain.. What would this possibly change? Math is hard and thats what makes points a problem? There is no functional difference in balance between restricting points vs restricting # of formations.
A formation of a Warhound titan is better than a terrible baneblade for example. Its better in points and better when you restrict via formations.
Well, you can do different types of formations to use an example of a potential way of balancing.
That Warhound Titan could be a "Legendary Formation" while the Baneblade could be something else entirely.
Removing pts wouldn't be so bad. You could just use MSRP instead. Instead of exchanging army lists you would just exchange receipts. You could even do away with all the dice rolling and moving models around. Just total up the receipts and whoever has the highest number wins.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Removing pts wouldn't be so bad. You could just use MSRP instead. Instead of exchanging army lists you would just exchange receipts. You could even do away with all the dice rolling and moving models around. Just total up the receipts and whoever has the highest number wins.
Has it crossed anyone's mind that AoS might be paving the way for a new Warhammer fantasy game with a new rulebook, points costs, ranks, etc. etc.? I could see them using the 40k end times to do the same thing as all these formations are getting out of control and killing the game imo.
Well you see. In the far future of the 51st millennium, the Emprah goes hurtling through the universe holding onto the Milky Way but he gets saved by the void Dragon and with the help of the God of Squats, he simultaneously defensively deep squats every race and reforges the souls of the goodest boys and girls into Squallforged Immortals. The goodest of the good that can never really die and they're definitely not Space Marines but they can be girls too so you just get shiny new gold kits with no boobplate and no faces and square jawlines that you can pretend are nuns in SPAAAAAAACE.
Okay like I know time is mutable and chaos is fickle and evil gods playthings yada yada. But I still can't work out how a big shake up in the *future* would undo the *past*. You're gonna have to run that one by me again.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Removing pts wouldn't be so bad. You could just use MSRP instead. Instead of exchanging army lists you would just exchange receipts. You could even do away with all the dice rolling and moving models around. Just total up the receipts and whoever has the highest number wins.
This! Too bad I can only exalt once! You sir win the internet.
In theory, 'Formations only, no points' could work.
However that would mean all Formations would have to be balanced with each other and equal in power level (which they won't be) and even then it would lead to armies being very restrictive and stale.
As far as the End times thing: apparently in the new (now confirmed) Space Wolves:Wulfen codex, Fenris is destroyed by the Dark Angels, and apparently the two biggest 'dark secrets' in 40k get let out of the bag (Wulfen and the Fallen).
I wouldnt mind an endtimes, but the changing of rules will do it in for me.
But again, GW knows how bad AOS is doing, they are not gonna do that for 40k. the reason it happened to fantasy is because it started to fail
If they've even the slightest shred of sense left to them they better get to work on that retcon quick-sharp, because I guarantee you for every person who's jumping for joy at this idea there will be five or ten folk out there in the world going "Wait, they blew up my faction's home planet and killed a bunch of characters I like?! feth this, I'm out." - you can't get people to invest the ridiculous amounts of time and money required to get into GW games and then just feth about with the stuff that drew many folk in in the first place, because the investment of that much emotional energy into something inspires a sense of connection and ownership.
It's why an evolving storyline is fundamentally incompatible with a hobby that requires players to funnel in their creativity to such a degree - everyone who likes the background will have their own "headcannon" version of what happens when the clock does hit midnight, and you can be damn sure that for most people it won't include their own favoured aspects of the fluff being mangled, which just pisses folk off.
Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
Ah good oh, implying that people who're in the hobby for different reasons than you and so value different parts of it to you must not be adults.
Some folk don't consider their models to be interchangeable game pieces, for a fair few actually they only have value in the context of the fiction, so drastically changing the fiction in ways they don't like is hardly likely to make them more enthusiastic to play, particularly if it's combined with similarly drastic rules changes they also dislike. But hey, to prove that hypothesis GW would have to have done something extremely similar in the recent past and have caused substantial numbers of people to walk away or move to other systems explicitly because of a combination of massive background changes they disliked and a drastic shift in rules format, and that's just outlandish
BaronIveagh wrote: As far as the End times thing: apparently in the new (now confirmed) Space Wolves:Wulfen codex, Fenris is destroyed by the Dark Angels, and apparently the two biggest 'dark secrets' in 40k get let out of the bag (Wulfen and the Fallen).
So, I'll say it looks a little more likely.
Not just the Dark Angels but its been stated that Ultramarines have dropped a fleet in as well.
Yodhrin wrote: Iyou can't get people to invest the ridiculous amounts of time and money required to get into GW games and then just feth about with the stuff that drew many folk in in the first place, because the investment of that much emotional energy into something inspires a sense of connection and ownership
They can; they did it to WHF.
But to those people saying "yay, storyline advancement!" keep in mind that's what people were saying when the first End Times book hit. It only went downhill from there plot-wise, until it devolved into Skaven shooting down the moon followed shortly after with the entire world blowing up, rendering all of the other events moot.
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
As for a friendly discussion (and not an argument), surely the recent Fantasy Battles to AOS saga disproves this theory? Some people shrugged their shoulders and kept playing, some people stepped back, some people signed on, and some people literally burned their armies.
For better or worse, we are all tied to to this hobby in different ways. Honestly don't see how the Superman example has any bearing on this either.
Yes, this is not near as extreme as AOS, but still represents a significant and massive departure from the 40k we know, and definetly sets the stage for equally drastic and controversial moves.
Personally, I like the story moving forward, but using what are arguably the two most popular marine armies, and perhaps even armies themselves is a huge jump that is going to cause a huge range of emotions - especially from those directly affected.
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
As for a friendly discussion (and not an argument), surely the recent Fantasy Battles to AOS saga disproves this theory? Some people shrugged their shoulders and kept playing, some people stepped back, some people signed on, and some people literally burned their armies.
I think it had a lot more to do with AOS rules and, less importantly, subsequent world (a total reboot which, let's be honest, wasn't deep or interesting), than End of Times itself. Had EoT ended with the Empire crippled, unified Elves and Undead and O&g + OK, I doubt there would be a lot of people who would had quit. There's a way to advance the storyline, even significantly, without basically restarting at 0.
mjl7atlas wrote: Has it crossed anyone's mind that AoS might be paving the way for a new Warhammer fantasy game with a new rulebook, points costs, ranks, etc. etc.? I could see them using the 40k end times to do the same thing as all these formations are getting out of control and killing the game imo.
p.s. Where are my plastic SoB's at GW?
if by paving you mean burying it six feet under, yup it is!
Not only that we have Sad Panda saying this a long time ago this was coming. I dubbed it mini end times since its not going to result in a total retcon just a big story advancement.
Can't wait to see the new angrier edgier Tau that come out of this.
Why do I have a feeling a Tyranid hive fleet THE hive fleet showed up on the Farsights doorstep at the end of the Mont'ka. Now Fenris is blown up. These are dark days indeed.
That should be the tag line of this series of events Warhammer 40k: Dark Days.
So sick to death of 40k becoming wrestling. BIG FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT but nothing ever changes.
Change is good, necessary even.
About time.
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BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
I completely agree. I had was a part owner of a comic book store when that happened. We sold a ton of Superman stuff.
You can't escape that some people will be pissed off. However, it reenergizes a whole lot more to be part of that change or give it another shot if they left. Every event brings the opportunity for new stories for people to invest their energy in their own fluff. The idea that you can't move forward because it limits older players doesn't hold weight.
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
It's true. Hopefully this isn't a portent of things to come like End Times was for WFB/AOS...
Interesting developments. A few things. The story progressing does not necessarily mean the rules will change. The dark angels are attacking the Fenris System. There is almost guaranteed to be another book in the war zone Fenris series. I expect Fenris the planet and the space wolves themselves to survive.
There are so many potential war zones in the 40k universe that they could make the 40k endtimes last at least 10 years. There are far more stories to tell in this area. The 13th crusade, the dark eldar mystery door, the fight for the black library, armageddon again, necrons vs adeptus
mechanicus on Mars, etc,etc.
There also seems to be a lot of derision of the gw fluff writing staff. I dont get this. 40K has never competed in terms of writing skill with the greats of the genre, but it has always been entertaining, now as much as ever. (I have not read Montka yet)
There have been a lot of deliberate mysteries in 40k, but after many years of waiting I think it is finally time to find out what cypher is up to.
The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
How do you figure?
I got into 40k for the fluff before I ever touched a mini, and when the Newcron came out it invalidated three of my army projects at once. The 5th edition Tyranids codex sapped my will to nid. The only reason I buy minis is for the story that imbues them. Kill the story and they are worthless.
I still have all the old books, I can still reread them, but knowing the canon as I loved it is dead and will never be expanded puts a real damper on the fun.
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
How do you figure?
I got into 40k for the fluff before I ever touched a mini, and when the Newcron came out it invalidated three of my army projects at once. The 5th edition Tyranids codex sapped my will to nid. The only reason I buy minis is for the story that imbues them. Kill the story and they are worthless.
I still have all the old books, I can still reread them, but knowing the canon as I loved it is dead and will never be expanded puts a real damper on the fun.
I find this attitude mystifying. I can understand being upset at a rules change as this may invalidate an old army, but new fluff does not invalidate old fluff. The existence of return of the king does not prevent a game set during the fellowship from being played. We all know, to quite a fine level of detail, what happened during the Horus Heresy, but that has not stopped it from being extremely popular. (Give me a new specialist games warhammer set during the war of the beard, and I will be a happy man) The more the story moves forward the more history there is to mine for game and campaign ideas.
I'm not sure I'm grasping what everyone is saying about" Becoming Formations and Detachments" or "dropping the Force Org Chart"
The game already is, and has, done that. The Force Org chart of old is now just called "Combined Arms Detachment". It's just another way to build a list if you so choose.
Now Dropping Points would be feth all dumb, though.
And Formations without points would be even worse. The only possible way that could get even remotely balanced is if each formation told us exactly what models to bring with no options to change and at that point, we're just playing chess with over $1000 dollars in pieces.
Brother SRM wrote: If anyone thinks this rumor has merit, they're a moron. GW wouldn't kill their golden goose.
Yes they wouldn't intentionally be killing but a) they don't neccessarily see as killing(they thought it will be printing money with AOS as well) b) they are killing it off slowly already. Sales are dropping same as FB was(which btw was still profitable. And was still one of the top selling games in USA when AOS design process started...)
Not saying they will but they could. They need to figure a way to reverse trend of decreasing sales and they don't do much in form of market research so they do what they think is right. If they thought AOS will be printing money why not similar rules in 40k as well...
It's not like 40k sales are good so no need to do anything. Those are falling same as FB was.
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if GW would move to ''formations only''.
This would make perfect sense as it would be in line with the AoS treatment of Fantasy.
Gamgee wrote: The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.
The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.
That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.
I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.
And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.
Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's disappointing to see Forge World nailing the way lists should be made with the HH series whilst GW Proper flounders around with their increasingly complicated special rule on top of special rule formation nonsense.
I couldn't agree more with that statement. List building in 30k is fantastic. It still suffers a bit from the 40k level of books required as well as keeping up with releases. As much as I've enjoyed the amount of attention fw has payed towards 30k, I do worry that gw will somehow mandate some sort of formation tomfoolery into 30k.
Formations and silly detachments have ruined 40k, it's just apoc now, all, day, long. Le sigh. I still am not cynical enough to think that gw would axe points. They certainly don't require points to just gak out formations every 5 minutes. Although somehow even apoc used to at least have points for formations.
I can see them desecrating the corpse of the foc, it's already in the ground in a lot of ways seeing since 7th hit. The nicest thing about 30k is there is some level of sanity. You actually use an foc and stuff like lords of war are well reigned in.
Gamgee wrote: The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.
The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.
That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.
I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.
And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.
Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.
There's simply too much implications in the lore that the Tau are about to get a lot more powerful and a lot larger of an Empire and with how end times is going and sad panda even said the Tau books were the first of the new plot so leading up to some big events that will shake up the 40k story a lot. Well what would shake up the Tau more than having the Ethereals killed off, Farsight Ascend to rule them, and they begin to discover the ability to use warp drives.
That or the Tau will strike out in another diction and expand a lot. Also blow for blow the Tau came out of the campaign with 4 more planets than the 1 they lost. Also they can already get through the fire with the shields they are inventing so it took them all of a few weeks to start adapting. The Tau don't stop adapting ever. The only thing they underestimated was the Adeptus Mechanicus, and there is an Ad Mech Forgeworld in striking distance for a Tau campaign if they go back west.
Gamgee wrote: The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.
The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.
That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.
I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.
And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.
Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.
There's simply too much implications in the lore that the Tau are about to get a lot more powerful and a lot larger of an Empire and with how end times is going and sad panda even said the Tau books were the first of the new plot so leading up to some big events that will shake up the 40k story a lot. Well what would shake up the Tau more than having the Ethereals killed off, Farsight Ascend to rule them, and they begin to discover the ability to use warp drives.
That or the Tau will strike out in another diction and expand a lot. Also blow for blow the Tau came out of the campaign with 4 more planets than the 1 they lost. Also they can already get through the fire with the shields they are inventing so it took them all of a few weeks to start adapting. The Tau don't stop adapting ever. The only thing they underestimated was the Adeptus Mechanicus, and there is an Ad Mech Forgeworld in striking distance for a Tau campaign if they go back west.
Prefectia and Agrellan were the only two worth noting. The other two were steamrolled.
And funnily enough, there is an Admech and Red Scorpions versus Tau book coming out sooner or later from FW...
The Tau have been experimenting on warp technology for ages. They can't wrap their heads around it due to the sheer fact it requires something they do not possess, understand, or even really acknowledge - the ability to access and use the warp. They have auxiliaries that are capable of doing so, but the Tau have a overwhelming sense of self superiority, and I can imagine it will never even occur to them to plug in auxiliaries like Navigators. And that is even if the auxiliaries can be used in such a capacity.
And really, the planets the Tau took are inconsequential to the Imperium. They skipped over Voltoris after they got beaten there. The only reason why the Imperium cares about Prefectia was because of the death of Severax (which prompted the Imperial response) and the fact it meant they would have to bolster the worlds that are literally made out of gold, silver, and other precious metals.
And the Tau are adapting to the fire, but it was stated it would take a long time to put the new shields on enough of the fleet to matter. And on top of that, what waits directly on the other side of the Gulf is not the Imperium, but the Farsight Enclaves - the splinter group that is still on the Empire's list of things they need to kill off.
The implications at the end of the Montka book are that the Tau, while technically winning the battle, are reeling from the smack down they received. Agrellan, other than one city, is now useless. Many higher up commanders are dead, Shadowsun is crippled, Aun'va is gone, and their advance has ground to a halt. There are turbulent times ahead, as the Empire is shaken to the core at the retaliation the Imperium delivered, and they haven't even delivered the news that the Supreme Ethereal was assassinated.
There are going to be more supplements, but few of them will have to do with the Tau.
Besides, the Taus fluff has always been that they are moving towards a brighter future. It's part of the reason their fluff gets so much hate, is because they are shown to be on the rise while the rest of the galaxy declines.
And before you think that means that the Empire is going to grow into some huge force, remember - The Imperium has had more powerful foes and Xenos races rise and fall within the last ten thousand years. And, as stated In the 7th fluff book, the Imperiums borders have never been larger, its forces more powerful.
And everything is still going to gak.
The next campaign will probably be resolving the Fenris plot line for now, the next will involve whatever two books they are releasing next, or whatever xenos race they are releasing next plus space marines to push copies.
I think it had a lot more to do with AOS rules and, less importantly, subsequent world (a total reboot which, let's be honest, wasn't deep or interesting), than End of Times itself. Had EoT ended with the Empire crippled, unified Elves and Undead and O&g + OK, I doubt there would be a lot of people who would had quit. There's a way to advance the storyline, even significantly, without basically restarting at 0.
Completely agree - there was no reason to go nuclear on the old world. They would have been far better moving the storyline on but not destroying the world. I imagine that they will just advance the storyline in 40k. They won't destroy the entire setting, advance it 10,000 years, merge a bunch of armies, have Necrons ally with the Imperium, and introduce a new army as the main faction around everything is based.
News to me; never seen any evidence of this. Pretty sure GW had said that SM alone outsold WFB as a whole.
Edit: Correction to my post:
Chikout wrote: It wasn't space marines that outsold fantasy, it was the tactical squad box set.(apparently)
I didn't say FB outsold 40k? Or since when "one of the top selling" means "the top selling"?
There's public charts that show that in 2012 40k was 1st, FB 3rd. Year or two later FB was STILL 5th.
Just 'cause marines outsell FB doesn't mean every single game outsells FB. Top selling games in USA contains more than 1st. After all I specified plural. GameS.
And who thinks 3rd best selling game would really run deficit? GW would be pretty damned bad that if they have game that is 3rd best sold in USA and still manages to cost money or alternatively USA market is TOTALLY out of whack to rest of the world. So there goes "FB was costing more than it gave!".
AOS was designed not because FB was not profitable but because it didn't sell as much as marines. Being 1st and 3rd isn't good enough for GW. GW wanted FB to sell like marines as well as marines selling as well as marines.
And while it's true that FB sales were falling and therefore GW had motivation to try to figure something that doesn't mean 40k is safe because their sales are good. 40k sales aren't growing or even staying same(and the way western economy system goes same sales isn't good enough. Companies need to grow) but decreasing. Sure 40k sales have still buffer since they started higher but unless GW figures way to reverse it it's going to reach where FB sales were before AOS decision sooner or later...
2012 sales. 40k/FB: 100/20
2015 sales. 90/18
That is roughly what it's looking. Obviously numbers are made up as is ratios but point is _both_ are suffering. 40k simply has bigger headstart to begin with. Either way GW isn't happy about current situation. No company in this age is unless they are steadily INCREASING their profit. Not stay same and definitely not shrinking.
What steps GW will take to recover 40k sales is of course another thing. With luck they don't do AOS style(then again for 2nd ed player like me that's least of my worries)
I think it had a lot more to do with AOS rules and, less importantly, subsequent world (a total reboot which, let's be honest, wasn't deep or interesting), than End of Times itself. Had EoT ended with the Empire crippled, unified Elves and Undead and O&g + OK, I doubt there would be a lot of people who would had quit. There's a way to advance the storyline, even significantly, without basically restarting at 0.
Completely agree - there was no reason to go nuclear on the old world. They would have been far better moving the storyline on but not destroying the world. I imagine that they will just advance the storyline in 40k. They won't destroy the entire setting, advance it 10,000 years, merge a bunch of armies, have Necrons ally with the Imperium, and introduce a new army as the main faction around everything is based.
See, to me, that reads as "they won't destroy the entire setting, just destroy the entire setting". You can't fundamentally alter multiple substantial aspects of a fiction and then claim "naw naw, see, it's still 40K 'cos the books still have "Warhammer 40K" on the cover, right there see?". Whatevs, if the folk who want story advancement feel like killing off 40K as well have at it, because why learn from either recent(like, last year) or older history("yeah man, lets advance the Battletech storyline, it's so boring, I think Clan Invasion sounds super cool oh god what is this why why what have we unleashed")?
Actually I think WHFB probably wasn't profitable by the end.
If we assume it accounted for 40% of GW's costs, which is reasonable given the size of the range was similar to 40K, and 20% of sales, which is reasonable given that 40K is a lot more popular,.. if these assumptions are roughly correct, the implications are clear.
Kilkrazy wrote: Actually I think WHFB probably wasn't profitable by the end.
If we assume it accounted for 40% of GW's costs, which is reasonable given the size of the range was similar to 40K, and 20% of sales, which is reasonable given that 40K is a lot more popular,.. if these assumptions are roughly correct, the implications are clear.
Even if that WERE case that wasn't likely the case when AOS was devised. That or GW has something seriously wrong with themselves if 3rd best selling game is still making loss.
Was it unprofitable 2014-2015? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not convinced especially as the big reason why it had dropped of from top selling games was the abysmal support(no surprise since development strength was directed to AOS). Had there been better support sales would have been up. It's not like there wasn't demand like wood elves and initial end time releases showed. Give a good product and people buy.
(also last few years FB costs were pretty close to zero being already AOS costs)
Also just 'cause range is roughly same size doesn't mean resources directed is same. Quality costs. 40k support was still a) bigger b) better.
Most of GW's cost are central costs, so assigning 40% of their overall costs to it on the basis of relative range size is....not something I would ever present to anyone.
Based on the narrative events of the space wolf campaign, I absolutely believe GW's gearing up for an 'end times' style event in 40k, plot wise. Whether it has the same sort of cataclysmic repercussions for the rules of 40k that it did for fantasy, I wouldn't put money on one way or the other.
Never mind that you can read the actual bit of fluff via Atia--and what you've been saying is not true.
Final bit in spoiler tags:
Spoiler:
Wait, I don't get it. The story ends with them bombing Fenris; are you just saying it doesn't specify Fenris actually blowing up? I can see how people might be confused about that given the art showing massive explosions on the planet, but I'm not sure either way.
So sick to death of 40k becoming wrestling. BIG FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT but nothing ever changes.
Change is good, necessary even.
About time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.
I completely agree. I had was a part owner of a comic book store when that happened. We sold a ton of Superman stuff.
You can't escape that some people will be pissed off. However, it reenergizes a whole lot more to be part of that change or give it another shot if they left. Every event brings the opportunity for new stories for people to invest their energy in their own fluff. The idea that you can't move forward because it limits older players doesn't hold weight.
I won't lie... this is amazing, and is forcing me to bring a new SW list to my next ITC tournament. I know it and the new Wulfen won't thrive in that meta, but guess what... "Remember Fenris". That's why as a fluff fan I am excited.
And as much as it sounds like something 16 year old me would say, but I am giddy at the thought of angry, now nomadic, Space Wolves, knowing they weren't traitors... until their battle-brothers gakked up. Its a more sensible reason for fluffy SM on SM matches in my head-canon. :-p
Gamgee wrote: The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.
The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.
That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.
I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.
And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.
Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.
There's simply too much implications in the lore that the Tau are about to get a lot more powerful and a lot larger of an Empire and with how end times is going and sad panda even said the Tau books were the first of the new plot so leading up to some big events that will shake up the 40k story a lot. Well what would shake up the Tau more than having the Ethereals killed off, Farsight Ascend to rule them, and they begin to discover the ability to use warp drives.
That or the Tau will strike out in another diction and expand a lot. Also blow for blow the Tau came out of the campaign with 4 more planets than the 1 they lost. Also they can already get through the fire with the shields they are inventing so it took them all of a few weeks to start adapting. The Tau don't stop adapting ever. The only thing they underestimated was the Adeptus Mechanicus, and there is an Ad Mech Forgeworld in striking distance for a Tau campaign if they go back west.
Prefectia and Agrellan were the only two worth noting. The other two were steamrolled.
And funnily enough, there is an Admech and Red Scorpions versus Tau book coming out sooner or later from FW...
The Tau have been experimenting on warp technology for ages. They can't wrap their heads around it due to the sheer fact it requires something they do not possess, understand, or even really acknowledge - the ability to access and use the warp. They have auxiliaries that are capable of doing so, but the Tau have a overwhelming sense of self superiority, and I can imagine it will never even occur to them to plug in auxiliaries like Navigators. And that is even if the auxiliaries can be used in such a capacity.
And really, the planets the Tau took are inconsequential to the Imperium. They skipped over Voltoris after they got beaten there. The only reason why the Imperium cares about Prefectia was because of the death of Severax (which prompted the Imperial response) and the fact it meant they would have to bolster the worlds that are literally made out of gold, silver, and other precious metals.
And the Tau are adapting to the fire, but it was stated it would take a long time to put the new shields on enough of the fleet to matter. And on top of that, what waits directly on the other side of the Gulf is not the Imperium, but the Farsight Enclaves - the splinter group that is still on the Empire's list of things they need to kill off.
The implications at the end of the Montka book are that the Tau, while technically winning the battle, are reeling from the smack down they received. Agrellan, other than one city, is now useless. Many higher up commanders are dead, Shadowsun is crippled, Aun'va is gone, and their advance has ground to a halt. There are turbulent times ahead, as the Empire is shaken to the core at the retaliation the Imperium delivered, and they haven't even delivered the news that the Supreme Ethereal was assassinated.
There are going to be more supplements, but few of them will have to do with the Tau.
Besides, the Taus fluff has always been that they are moving towards a brighter future. It's part of the reason their fluff gets so much hate, is because they are shown to be on the rise while the rest of the galaxy declines.
And before you think that means that the Empire is going to grow into some huge force, remember - The Imperium has had more powerful foes and Xenos races rise and fall within the last ten thousand years. And, as stated In the 7th fluff book, the Imperiums borders have never been larger, its forces more powerful.
And everything is still going to gak.
The next campaign will probably be resolving the Fenris plot line for now, the next will involve whatever two books they are releasing next, or whatever xenos race they are releasing next plus space marines to push copies.
Who knows. dark Eldar and Salamanders, maybe. :p.
That is my point they have two easily conquered planets and also prefectia and agrellan. So provided they can survive it is a net gain for them and a loss for the Imperium. Your free to your opinion, but when we practically know or think there will be an end times like series of books I don't think we've seen the last of the Tau yet. Once they light every niebula around them on fire I'll truly beleive they've been squatted until rethought, but given their insane sales I doubt we'll see anything but more of them.
Crimson wrote: Now I'm afraid. I like the setting just the way it is. I don't want them to mess with it.
As for removing the points, that would pretty much kill the game and thus entire GW.
Maybe not.
40k cannot stay as it is. Army rules, model and unit profiles are scattered over codices, WD, and supplement books. Nobody actually has a survey about 40k as a whole. It's a total mess if you ask me. The situation was different in the editions three to five where one was able to get an overview of the whole game. Rant over.
Crimson wrote: Now I'm afraid. I like the setting just the way it is. I don't want them to mess with it.
As for removing the points, that would pretty much kill the game and thus entire GW.
Maybe not.
40k cannot stay as it is. Army rules, model and unit profiles are scattered over codices, WD, and supplement books. Nobody actually has a survey about 40k as a whole. It's a total mess if you ask me. The situation was different in the editions three to five where one was able to get an overview of the whole game. Rant over.
I agree, the game is a mess now. GW should do an End Times Lite. A terrible diaster for the Imperium and how they deal with it. Then, reboot the actual game system. I don't think it should go to AOS levels, but the game is bloated right now and needs to be slimmed down. I would be for four main factions like they have in AoS, with everyone in the various factions being battle brothers. Release faction books, again like AoS, with all of the units for that faction in it and update with new stuff via campaign books, with the new unit's base rules posted for free on the site.
Yeah that fluff seems to indicate an attack on the Fenrisian system. No mention of Fenris or the Fang istelf being hit or destroyed (assuming we're not misisng any other paragrpahs).
Not sure about the changeling being able to influence the DAs. Arent they supposed to be the masters of discovering plots and rooting out heresy?
Maybe not.
40k cannot stay as it is. Army rules, model and unit profiles are scattered over codices, WD, and supplement books. Nobody actually has a survey about 40k as a whole. It's a total mess if you ask me. The situation was different in the editions three to five where one was able to get an overview of the whole game. Rant over.
And removing the points would improve the situation how?
I am not against updating or reorganising the rules, that's completely different matter.
Maybe not.
40k cannot stay as it is. Army rules, model and unit profiles are scattered over codices, WD, and supplement books. Nobody actually has a survey about 40k as a whole. It's a total mess if you ask me. The situation was different in the editions three to five where one was able to get an overview of the whole game. Rant over.
And removing the points would improve the situation how?
I am not against updating or reorganising the rules, that's completely different matter.
The game could live without a point system. They already did it in AoS.
They could propose some mild balancing rules as for AoS. For GW this might be totally sufficient.
The game could live without a point system. They already did it in AoS.
They could propose some mild balancing rules as for AoS. For GW this might be totally sufficient.
AoS is deader than Nagash's scrotum. Only reason it doesn't matter is because FB was already a rotting corpse on life support.
wuestenfux wrote: Nobody actually has a survey about 40k as a whole. It's a total mess if you ask me. The situation was different in the editions three to five where one was able to get an overview of the whole game. Rant over.
Frontline has. 1d4chan is pretty good source, although tongue in cheek.
C'mon people, we are still doubting GW's ability and willingness to shoot themselves in the foot?
I called the 'Sigmar'ing of 40k' as soon as AoS hit.
GW wants to sell models to collectors and pre-teen/teen boys. They also hate writing rules (probably because they are terrible at it and catch constant hell from community ).
So the AoS system is perfect for them. And AoS was a test. If they feel it was a succcess (and we now their vision can be warped) they will try to do something with 40k.
Facts:
1. GW wants to sell models
2. They hate writing rules
3. They could care less about 'veteran players' and the vocal community
4. 40K is nearing critical mass. It is so complicated right now gamers can barley understand it or keep up with the constant changes. (3 books for one army?)
There's all kinds of things GW could do, I just don't see any evidence that AOSing 40k is one of the things they are going to do in the foreseeable, and am not generally interested in pessimistic speculation.
I personaly think it would be cool, in some sort that all primarchs came back and you can use them but I would hate if the destroy al the fluff and setting like whf,
horuslupercal1988 wrote: I personaly think it would be cool, in some sort that all primarchs came back and you can use them but I would hate if the destroy al the fluff and setting like whf,
There already is a full game where you can use Primarchs, it's called Horus Heresy, is that not enough? And bringing back the Primarchs would be destroying the setting.
horuslupercal1988 wrote: I personaly think it would be cool, in some sort that all primarchs came back and you can use them but I would hate if the destroy al the fluff and setting like whf,
Yeah, I'd definitely be happy with an End Times style event. Maybe not destroying the universe, but at least moving the clock to a minute to midnight. With the 13th legion returning, we should technically see Russ soon as well. The new DA book said that The Lion was stirring within the Rock, as well, which would just be the coolest thing to happen for the next part of this supplement.
So as people have already said, if this was a couple of years ago I would have dismissed it immediately, but with AOS killing fantasy I am nervous that they will do the same with 40k. My real horror comes with the possibility that they could incorporate 40k into the AOS universe just to sell more models. Sure move the fluff on, sure try balancing the rules by beta testing in the community, even don't do that and update the rules but making it a game without points and just another pay to win scenario is just a interest killer for me.
GW didn't kill fantasy they IMPROVED it. AOS is epic and every game I have had so far has been fun contrary to what most 40k players believe. I haven't played 40k since picking up AOS and I can't see myself playing it for a while yet, but I forsee a time when 40k gets the same treatment as fantasy did, so you guys better get used to it.
Like 40K fluff as it is now? That's nice because it wasn't always this way. That's why us old timers still talk about Squats, Zoats and Slann. It's why I still have pre-Aspect warrior Eldar.
I personally would like them to blow the damn thing up and start over with a more coherent setting and more modern rules. Until AoS I thought GW was incapable the either. Now I just don't know if they have the courage to do so.
There is nothing wrong with the AoS style rules other than it isn't what you know (or love). Again, the rules haven't always been what you know them as. (Not that they were better either.) Most importantly you'd still be able to use your expensive models to game with... what ever system you chose.
I'll believe it when I see it, but if it does happen I might get back into 40K.
I almost hope it does go to an aos type game. Then there will be no more changes, no op units with power creep, etc. There is a ton of gw product out there, so 40k would continue with the models having a dual purpose.
Oh and free rules? Thank you! No more $50 books every month... not to mention having to replace them ever year or so (dark angels, Imperial knights, space wolf additions, tau additions, etc...)
As for the dark angels, I have played them since the end of 2nd edition. They have always been the good, but bad army. It would be cool to see good armies become 'rogue', like the alpha legion. Blood angels and wolves because of the flaws, dark angels because of their hidden war, etc. I will always love the dark angels, no matter which direction they take. I could care less if they become chaos born ax long as I have deathwing, ravenwing, and greening
I wish they would make some units for the da that would rival the power of grimnar, wolven, thunderwolf cavalry, mepheston, or lysander. We still have the weakest characters...
I would be interested to know the stats between the people that switched to KOW rules compared to the people the picked up the AOS rules. The relevance of this is I wonder if 40k does go pointless and more free for all will mantic do the same as they did with the death of fantasy and just go "hey come over here, we'll write you some rules, bring your armies let's have some fun"
Sword Of Caliban wrote: GW didn't kill fantasy they IMPROVED it. AOS is epic and every game I have had so far has been fun contrary to what most 40k players believe. I haven't played 40k since picking up AOS and I can't see myself playing it for a while yet, but I forsee a time when 40k gets the same treatment as fantasy did, so you guys better get used to it.
The improvement to fantasy is the large amount of new players, for non-GW games. Thank to AoS it become quite easy to get people in to other company systems. So why I don't see happen to 40K, it would be great if they did.
daemonish wrote: I would be interested to know the stats between the people that switched to KOW rules compared to the people the picked up the AOS rules. The relevance of this is I wonder if 40k does go pointless and more free for all will mantic do the same as they did with the death of fantasy and just go "hey come over here, we'll write you some rules, bring your armies let's have some fun"
There is theories around that Mantic has hurried development of their Warpath Sci-fi game and rescheduled the Kickstarter earlier, precisely in order to be ready for the exodus following a AoS-ing of 40K.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Removing pts wouldn't be so bad. You could just use MSRP instead. Instead of exchanging army lists you would just exchange receipts. You could even do away with all the dice rolling and moving models around. Just total up the receipts and whoever has the highest number wins.
Didn't they already do that at tourneys?
Yodhrin wrote:If they've even the slightest shred of sense left to them they better get to work on that retcon quick-sharp, because I guarantee you for every person who's jumping for joy at this idea there will be five or ten folk out there in the world going "Wait, they blew up my faction's home planet and killed a bunch of characters I like?! feth this, I'm out." - you can't get people to invest the ridiculous amounts of time and money required to get into GW games and then just feth about with the stuff that drew many folk in in the first place, because the investment of that much emotional energy into something inspires a sense of connection and ownership.
I remember thinking of starting a War Griffons battlegroup for Epic. Then Hive Fleet Leviathan ate Gryphonne IV...
BlaxicanX wrote:Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
... mind you, I've never seen the kind of ragequitting over fluff in Epic, that happens with 40K. Fluff in 40K is a much bigger shibboleth than you think.
Shrug and move on? Sure. To another game.
Moopy wrote:I completely agree. I had was a part owner of a comic book store when that happened. We sold a ton of Superman stuff.
Yeah. And people bought a bunch of End Times stuff and AoS starters.
It might be a tad different if DC only relied on Batman and Superman comics, decided Superman wasn't selling as well so axed it (without plans to bring him back after the furore died down), then couldn't understand why interest was fading in their replacement... I dunno... Mr. Mxyzptlk comic.
On second thoughts, a better Supes analogy for AoS would be Electric Superman.
However, it reenergizes a whole lot more to be part of that change or give it another shot if they left.
Do you really think that Fenris blowing up (or not) will bring ex-players flocking back to 40K?
The idea that you can't move forward because it limits older players doesn't hold weight.
No, but pissing off the fanbase does.
Chikout wrote:$1000 chess sets are not unheard of.
They're probably worth $1000, tho.
Requizen wrote:Oh look, more unfounded AoS-40k rumors. Never ceases to generate pages and pages of arguments.
And arguments about people arguing, and people turning up just to argue about how they're above the arguing...
Sword Of Caliban wrote:GW didn't kill fantasy they IMPROVED it. AOS is epic and every game I have had so far has been fun contrary to what most 40k players believe. I haven't played 40k since picking up AOS and I can't see myself playing it for a while yet, but I forsee a time when 40k gets the same treatment as fantasy did, so you guys better get used to it.
How many games have you played? I mean, game systems, not game sessions.
455_PWR wrote:I almost hope it does go to an aos type game. Then there will be no more changes, no op units with power creep... No more $50 books every month...
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Removing pts wouldn't be so bad. You could just use MSRP instead. Instead of exchanging army lists you would just exchange receipts. You could even do away with all the dice rolling and moving models around. Just total up the receipts and whoever has the highest number wins.
Didn't they already do that at tourneys?
Yodhrin wrote:If they've even the slightest shred of sense left to them they better get to work on that retcon quick-sharp, because I guarantee you for every person who's jumping for joy at this idea there will be five or ten folk out there in the world going "Wait, they blew up my faction's home planet and killed a bunch of characters I like?! feth this, I'm out." - you can't get people to invest the ridiculous amounts of time and money required to get into GW games and then just feth about with the stuff that drew many folk in in the first place, because the investment of that much emotional energy into something inspires a sense of connection and ownership.
I remember thinking of starting a War Griffons battlegroup for Epic. Then Hive Fleet Leviathan ate Gryphonne IV...
BlaxicanX wrote:Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.
... mind you, I've never seen the kind of ragequitting over fluff in Epic, that happens with 40K. Fluff in 40K is a much bigger shibboleth than you think.
Shrug and move on? Sure. To another game.
Moopy wrote:I completely agree. I had was a part owner of a comic book store when that happened. We sold a ton of Superman stuff.
Yeah. And people bought a bunch of End Times stuff and AoS starters.
It might be a tad different if DC only relied on Batman and Superman comics, decided Superman wasn't selling as well so axed it (without plans to bring him back after the furore died down), then couldn't understand why interest was fading in their replacement... I dunno... Mr. Mxyzptlk comic.
On second thoughts, a better Supes analogy for AoS would be Electric Superman.
However, it reenergizes a whole lot more to be part of that change or give it another shot if they left.
Do you really think that Fenris blowing up (or not) will bring ex-players flocking back to 40K?
The idea that you can't move forward because it limits older players doesn't hold weight.
No, but pissing off the fanbase does.
Chikout wrote:$1000 chess sets are not unheard of.
They're probably worth $1000, tho.
Requizen wrote:Oh look, more unfounded AoS-40k rumors. Never ceases to generate pages and pages of arguments.
And arguments about people arguing, and people turning up just to argue about how they're above the arguing...
Sword Of Caliban wrote:GW didn't kill fantasy they IMPROVED it. AOS is epic and every game I have had so far has been fun contrary to what most 40k players believe. I haven't played 40k since picking up AOS and I can't see myself playing it for a while yet, but I forsee a time when 40k gets the same treatment as fantasy did, so you guys better get used to it.
How many games have you played? I mean, game systems, not game sessions.
455_PWR wrote:I almost hope it does go to an aos type game. Then there will be no more changes, no op units with power creep... No more $50 books every month...
No players...
Game systems I have played are - Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40000, Battlefield Gothic, Age of Sigmar, Dropzone Commander, Warmachine/Hordes, AVP and I dabbled with Infinity. AOS and DZC are my favourites. I might not have played loads of systems but I have played enough.
I don't think they'll be doing anything quite as drastic as Sigmaring 40k - I can see them doing something similar to 3rd Edition, but more consolidating, not trimming. Formations can work without points if there's enough variety, I'd argue that it's even harder to balance though.
horuslupercal1988 wrote: I personaly think it would be cool, in some sort that all primarchs came back and you can use them but I would hate if the destroy al the fluff and setting like whf,
What if they come back and they're preparing a new primarch level of power for all the factions. Maybe all of this stuff about Farsight is about him about to become the Tau equivalent? Assuming they find a way to bring them back in the other armies will need something as memorable and cool for the tabletop and with all the prophecy and fate surrounding Farsight I couldn't see anyone else eligible.
horuslupercal1988 wrote: I personaly think it would be cool, in some sort that all primarchs came back and you can use them but I would hate if the destroy al the fluff and setting like whf,
What if they come back and they're preparing a new primarch level of power for all the factions. Maybe all of this stuff about Farsight is about him about to become the Tau equivalent? Assuming they find a way to bring them back in the other armies will need something as memorable and cool for the tabletop and with all the prophecy and fate surrounding Farsight I couldn't see anyone else eligible.
If that's true, I welcome the release of the Silent King with open arms.
The more I read about 30k the more I would like 8th ed to be based on it.
Imagine these codexes: Each consisting of a major faction with the sub armies having 30k version chapter tactics with more restrictions/specific rules that influence how they play.
Codex Astartes: Space Marines - All marine chapters including those that currently have their own books with the more advanced/restrictive versions of chapter tactics from 30k.
Imperium of Man: AM, Inquisition (as a type of AM), Sisters. Again, all with chapter tactics including for different types of AM armies.
Mechanicum: Includes both cult and skitari along with dark mech.
Chaos: Rules for each god, several war bands of chaos marines and dark mech. Also chaos united or whatever the hell it's called.
Necrons: Several chapter tactics for different factions. Loyal to the silent king, c'tan horror old crons etc etc...
Orks: Several chapter tactics for various clans and the tactics they favor.
Nids: Tactics representing the various hive fleets and the way they adapted differently. More mc. More hordes. More specialized etc etc...
Eldar: Dark and Craftworld with Harlequinn in one book. The different chapter tactics would place the restrictions and grant the bonuses that made them one, the other, or a blend.
Tau: Same deal as all the others. Represent people like Farseer, advance their fluff a little to show a few sub factions. Enough that the tactics could be made interesting.
I think 30k with the points scaled down a bit so that it fit closer to 1k-2k games easily with the same restrictions on LoW would make for an awesome game.
I would love to see fluff books get released from that point forward including new chapter tactics for each army instead of all the nonsense they have now.
Lance845 wrote: The more I read about 30k the more I would like 8th ed to be based on it.
Imagine these codexes: Each consisting of a major faction with the sub armies having 30k version chapter tactics with more restrictions/specific rules that influence how they play.
Codex Astartes: Space Marines - All marine chapters including those that currently have their own books with the more advanced/restrictive versions of chapter tactics from 30k.
Imperium of Man: AM, Inquisition (as a type of AM), Sisters. Again, all with chapter tactics including for different types of AM armies.
Mechanicum: Includes both cult and skitari along with dark mech.
Chaos: Rules for each god, several war bands of chaos marines and dark mech. Also chaos united or whatever the hell it's called.
Necrons: Several chapter tactics for different factions. Loyal to the silent king, c'tan horror old crons etc etc...
Orks: Several chapter tactics for various clans and the tactics they favor.
Nids: Tactics representing the various hive fleets and the way they adapted differently. More mc. More hordes. More specialized etc etc...
Eldar: Dark and Craftworld with Harlequinn in one book. The different chapter tactics would place the restrictions and grant the bonuses that made them one, the other, or a blend.
Tau: Same deal as all the others. Represent people like Farseer, advance their fluff a little to show a few sub factions. Enough that the tactics could be made interesting.
I think 30k with the points scaled down a bit so that it fit closer to 1k-2k games easily with the same restrictions on LoW would make for an awesome game.
I would love to see fluff books get released from that point forward including new chapter tactics for each army instead of all the nonsense they have now.
Would be cool, but it's propably not the best option, honestly. The way 30k is build, it's made to be the kind of game that 30k models and rules govern the best, where 40k has been through several different itterations with a lot of different themes, so it would be difficult to built a balanced rules around it.
Kilkrazy wrote: Actually I think WHFB probably wasn't profitable by the end.
If we assume it accounted for 40% of GW's costs, which is reasonable given the size of the range was similar to 40K, and 20% of sales, which is reasonable given that 40K is a lot more popular,.. if these assumptions are roughly correct, the implications are clear.
I believe per-unit production costs are relatively small, but GW's biggest fixed cost is its chain of shops and they barely break even. High Street rents/rates are huge (and off-High Street is nearly as bad), even in provincial towns. Having half the stock in your expensive shop basically not selling (and I sadly include LotR in that) is a killer - I can't imagine any company would let that pass.
Which says nothing about how WHFB got into that state, or the effectiveness of its replacement, but that's for another thread.
Looks like a version of 40k specifically for younger players.
*Begins ringing the doom bell*
I sense an end times its waaay to obvious now.
In what way does retreading existing stuff for a younger audience scream "end times"? If they were going to refresh 40k wouldn't it make more sense to make this a part of that?
inb4 "but it's GW, nothing they do ever makes any sense arf arf"
The new boxed hobby set has simplified rules, but they are just to allow intro-level games with what's in there.
It's no more a herald of end times than back in 2nd edition, when me and my best buddy got our intro to 40K by using the rules for the board game Tyranid Attack (also called advanced space crusade) to play out battles between Space Marines and Tyranids. I remember 4" scout moves (we turned spaces into an inch) and Space Marine Scouts with heavy bolters rolled 4d6 to fire, whereas Genestealers rolled 4d6 on the attack.
After awhile, we moved onto the 2nd edition rules.
Remember the words "be careful what you wish for, for you may just get it, but not in the way you want."
