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Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 17:57:52


Post by: Martel732


Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:00:30


Post by: alex0911


Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.
Its OP just like most of the taus toys. Their formation is even more stupid.... However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:06:31


Post by: BoomWolf


I see the other thread getting locked didn't get the message across.

It's an old and tired out subject, where people prove you mathematically wrong over and over again and you keep complaining that your BA are not as good/don't have grav/assault is dead /whatever, ignoring the fact BA are curbstomped by nearly every codex, other marines included, and just focus your hate on tau.

We've done this dance over a dozen times now, with you repeating the same washed out arguments over and over and being proved subjectively wrong over and over.

Let it the feth go. This vendetta is absurd. Riptides don't need the zeal worthy nerf you want, just minor tweaking and nobody is even arguing against it. Many units out there are far more dominating for over an edition now but you are still fixated on riptides and tau in general.


Mods, please lock this too. Along with any future martel riptide rage thread.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:07:45


Post by: alex0911


 BoomWolf wrote:
I see the other thread getting locked didn't get the message across.

It's an old and tired out subject, where people prove you mathematically wrong over and over again and you keep complaining that your BA are not as good/don't have grav/assault is dead /whatever, ignoring the fact BA are curbstomped by nearly every codex, other marines included, and just focus your hate on tau.

We've done this dance over a dozen times now, with you repeating the same washed out arguments over and over and being proved subjectively wrong over and over.

Let it the feth go. This vendetta is absurd. Riptides don't need the zeal worthy nerf you want, just minor tweaking and nobody is even arguing against it. Many units out there are far more dominating for over an edition now but you are still fixated on riptides and tau in general.


Mods, please lock this too. Along with any future martel riptide rage thread.


And here comes the first one


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:09:54


Post by: Martel732


 BoomWolf wrote:
I see the other thread getting locked didn't get the message across.

It's an old and tired out subject, where people prove you mathematically wrong over and over again and you keep complaining that your BA are not as good/don't have grav/assault is dead /whatever, ignoring the fact BA are curbstomped by nearly every codex, other marines included, and just focus your hate on tau.

We've done this dance over a dozen times now, with you repeating the same washed out arguments over and over and being proved subjectively wrong over and over.

Let it the feth go. This vendetta is absurd. Riptides don't need the zeal worthy nerf you want, just minor tweaking and nobody is even arguing against it. Many units out there are far more dominating for over an edition now but you are still fixated on riptides and tau in general.


Mods, please lock this too. Along with any future martel riptide rage thread.


Glad you think you've ever proved anything.

"nobody is even arguing against it."

You seem awfully desperate to make the discussion go away.

You're also more than welcome to put me on ignore. Since you've already proven me wrong and all that.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:23:48


Post by: jeffersonian000


Riptides are ignorable while you kill off all of their Markerlight support. If my opponent fielded a Riptide Wing, I'd thank them for making my life easier, then precede on dismantling their list.

SJ


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:24:03


Post by: kambien


I still think its more of a you problem then anything else.

Your playing with a gaming group that refuses to use LOS blocking terrain.

You refuse to bring allies , even though the rules totaly allow for it

You have a unrealistic wants . ( 5 marines in a drop pod being able to shoot a riptide off the board in 1 round of shooting )




Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:24:09


Post by: Bharring


There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)



Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:26:11


Post by: Akiasura


I like everything bharring said and agree with it.
But I assume it'll be ignored


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:26:46


Post by: Martel732


kambien wrote:
I still think its more of a you problem then anything else.

Your playing with a gaming group that refuses to use LOS blocking terrain.

You refuse to bring allies , even though the rules totaly allow for it

You have a unrealistic wants . ( 5 marines in a drop pod being able to shoot a riptide off the board in 1 round of shooting )




Not sure I ever claimed that. Although those 5 marines could do it to a more expensive IK if they all had combi-meltas. Which is my exact problem with the Riptide. They make IKs look way overcosted. Because MC >>>>> vehicle in almost every case.

Upon introduction of allies to BA, you might as well replace the entire list because the BA part of the list just becomes a liability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)



The 7.5 level makes so many units completely useless.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 18:40:16


Post by: Xenomancers


Death-company are about the only good BA unit. And Mephistopheles.

Storm raven formation is not bad except skyhammer does it better. Just play your BA with ultra marines or Iron hands tactics. Nobody would hold that against you.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 19:10:59


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Even Grav-centurions are a crapshoot against Riptides. If the Riptide has FNP it probably lives, if it has 4+ cover it most certainly will, and that's not taking Interceptor into account. The fact that even Grav-Cents struggle to deal with Riptides ought to illustrate how silly the entire situation is.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 19:22:14


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


My carnifex is still twiddling it's thumbs with my trygon over here!


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 19:45:16


Post by: Captain Joystick


 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My carnifex is still twiddling it's thumbs with my trygon over here!


And both stunned by the awkward silence as they try to ignore my converted penitent engine quietly weeping.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:19:43


Post by: pumaman1


@AlmightyWalrus, How do your grav cents not cause 5 overall wounds on a 2+? his 5++ and 5+++ shouldn't block enough overall wounds to have your grav cents fail.
or just run a force weapon and use instant death to your favor. no fnp roll.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:23:13


Post by: Akiasura


Using a force weapon on a riptide is pretty hard in actual play. The riptide has extremely long range weaponary, for the most part, so you usually have to cross the entire table to reach one. Once there, the Riptide is incredibly fast as well. It has no desire at all to allow CC to happen.

It's much easier to kill a Carnifex, Dreadknight, or any other slow, relatively good at melee, short ranged MC in melee with a force weapon. It's much harder to catch something like the Riptide.

It's like avoiding the shooting of the scatbikes. Sure, it sounds like the obvious solution, but in practice its extremely difficult and usually requires a mistake from your opponent.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:26:51


Post by: Xenomancers


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Even Grav-centurions are a crapshoot against Riptides. If the Riptide has FNP it probably lives, if it has 4+ cover it most certainly will, and that's not taking Interceptor into account. The fact that even Grav-Cents struggle to deal with Riptides ought to illustrate how silly the entire situation is.

An excellent point that is frequently made and ignored by tau players.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:29:09


Post by: SharkoutofWata


 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My carnifex is still twiddling it's thumbs with my trygon over here!


Mine lost its thumbs a few times over. Every one of my Carnis are looking like Old One Eye's ugly brothers...

But I actually like the Riptide in the setting of playing against people that don't spam them. Two Riptides is tough to handle, but I never have balked at playing against them like I have balked at five Flyrants, two Wraithknights, Scatbike Spam or Skyhammer. The Riptides are a FAR smaller threat in my eyes, but that might be because the rest of that stuff came out AFTER I got back into the game and the Riptides I just embraced as the normal power level in 7th.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:30:01


Post by: pumaman1


I don't have a BA codex, but is there no way to take force on a jump pack infantry model? being fast is sorta their thing.

And i will concede force is the weaker option, i am just struggling to see how 3 grav cents with gran cannon grav amps, putting out 15 shots, hitting 10, wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s fails to cause 5 unsaved wounds.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:30:34


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Bharring wrote:
There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)



This sums up entirely how I feel abou the game right now


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:39:20


Post by: Bharring


My Wrathlord tried to come hang out with you Carnifexes and Penitent Engines. But a wild WK appeared, killed them both, and went on its way before he could.

Now he just wanders around the battlefield, lonely, looking for somebody to hug.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:39:33


Post by: Akiasura


 pumaman1 wrote:
I don't have a BA codex, but is there no way to take force on a jump pack infantry model? being fast is sorta their thing.

And i will concede force is the weaker option, i am just struggling to see how 3 grav cents with gran cannon grav amps, putting out 15 shots, hitting 10, wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s fails to cause 5 unsaved wounds.


It's mostly due to the 5++ invul (or a 4++ cover...it can sit on the best cover and fire across the board barring LoS blocking stuff) and the 5+ FnP. It's not a lit, it lives by 1, but considering that the grav cents are the best counter for it, it says a lot that it still lives.

Force weapons on jump packs are a thing, but 12" plus running still means you're looking at T3/4 charges against it barring deep strike. You'll be moving 48" plus the 4 runs and then need to be in charge range...it can still move out of the way unless your whole army survives. Turn 3 is 36 plus 2 runs and then the charge distance...lot less likely.

. Remember, it can sit in excellent cover or way far back depending. Having the rip tide fire for 4 turns (usually, unless you have bikes) means it's most likely earning it's points and the damage is done. It needs to die by T2, 3 at the latest. Melee can rarely do that, certainly not BA melee.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:41:41


Post by: Bharring


... And then either wound on 4s at AP4, or wound on 5s with AP2 at I1...

That's no guarantee of a dead Riptide even if it panned out.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:50:58


Post by: Akiasura


Bharring wrote:
... And then either wound on 4s at AP4, or wound on 5s with AP2 at I1...

That's no guarantee of a dead Riptide even if it panned out.


I'll confess I'm not well versed in the BA melee abilities since it rarely comes up outside of DC (who don't have force weapons).
Does Mephiston have one? Is he better at killing it? Not saying he would get there, but I would think he has better than even odds unless he's AP 3


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 20:56:18


Post by: Vaktathi


Bharring wrote:
There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)

this pretty much nails it. For a pre-2015 army, riptides could do with some toning down. For post Necron armies, well, balance has largely been a nonexistent concept as each new book attempts to see how much more it can break than the last book...and balance in general is pretty irrelevant because it simply does not exist.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 21:11:46


Post by: pumaman1


Well its terrifying ws 2, its gotta get 5's to hit back, so bring the ap2

And you can try for divination, getting perfect timing which ignores cover, or a large number of helpful abilities. heck the primaris prescience isn't terrible.

It's good, granted. But that makes up for crisis suits being 2 SM being glued together, with worse BS, WS, and I. and generally costing more points. versatile, but fragile. JSJ is only so good if the player is actually following the dangerous terrain tests when they enter or leave terrain using it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 21:20:40


Post by: the_scotsman


I think your best bet may be psykers here. The last few times I've faced Riptides it was with Harlequins. Fairly similar situation, fast melee focused army that hates high strength low AP weaponry without very good means to handle MCs at range.

Psychic Shriek and force weaponry are a pretty good answer to Riptides and similar MCs. Their leadership value is quite mediocre, tau have no psykers to boost DTW rolls, and if I'm not wrong the BA can have a deep striking psyker dread who has access to Telepathy (just checked the 7th FAQ, they do seem to have it).

Also a nice source of ignores-cover in an army that's somewhat lacking in it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 21:55:33


Post by: pumaman1


That's probably the point The_Scotsman, where tau players are most tired of hearing complaints about things. We mostly stand by and watch the psychic phase as bad things happen to us, or good things happen to you (not every time yes, but usually), then you shoot us decently with SM based armies, and then you can punch the crap out of us as well.. and if you get first turn, i probably don't have many/any markerlights left to boost my army wide bs3 in a meaningful way.
yes we have good synergy, and if fire focuses on riptides first before markerlight sources, yeah we can do some dandy tricks (especially with hunter contingent). and the OSC is crazy, just friggen dumb. But we are never going to feel confidently (eldar) OP.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 22:15:59


Post by: oldzoggy


he is really nasty but there are worse models in the game


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 22:20:40


Post by: Quickjager


Psychic phase only REALLY matters to three factions.

Daemons, Eldar, and Librarus Conclave.

Grey Knights don't have that amazing of a psychic phase out of assault, WHICH DOESN'T MATTER. All that is happening again is Tau players feeling sorry for themselves AGAIN.

The only time you will see a Riptide reliably killed by a force weapon is if it is a Dreadknight holding it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 22:27:07


Post by: Inkubas


I play mainly play DA. So I can only go with that as a frame of reference. It's not that Tau have ONE really good thing. It's that the rules and the models are amazing in sync/points/value that are only comparable to Eldar.

With that said let's not look at the units in a vacuum. The Riptide, Storm Surge, Drones, formations etc. compound and play off each other's strengths. I can counter a Riptide by itself with knights, bikes, grav etc. But I'm not playing that. Nor, do I feel anyone that is facing Tau deals with just that.

Here's what I normally deal with. I'd like to hear your work around. I'm not being sarcastic or malicious but I'm curious as to how you'd be able to deal with this.

Insane Range
Weight of fire
Cheap interceptor making Deep strike suicide
AP 2 weapons
D missiles
Twin linked boosts
Over watch at full or better ballistic skills
Access to high wounds monstrous creatures
Units that destroy vehicles with rear armor
Shoot. > Jet away behind LOS tactics
Supporting fire

Now, if I was dealing with one or more of these things then I can imagine dealing with it. It's not easy but it's the army. That's life. My concern is that I'm facing ALL of those things in my games. This is coming from a DA player. I can't imagine what it's like to face this as: BA, Orks, Nids, CSM, Demons.

I know that some armies can deal with it. Eldar and Necron come to mind. Eldar have the mobility and can bring some insane devastation with smart play and Necron can just get back up and tank an obscene amount of damage.

But here comes the problem, the solution to facing an army shouldn't be to play another army and I feel like that's the case.

My brother plays Eldar and is building up his bikes. Him and his friend (Tau) face each other quite a few times and the discussion goes something along the lines of "It really depends on which of us goes first.".

That's a massive problem. I feel that ITC is trying to balance the game somewhat but the problem is that people don't want to nerf a model/army they like.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 23:01:28


Post by: SagesStone


The riptide may be a little strong, but most of its power comes with the combination of markerlight support, supporting fire and the hard swing 40k took away from assault based to shooting base.

On its own a riptide isn't really that scary it's just overall shooting is and the Tau are seemingly built thinking that shooting was still weak compared to assault and thus have added defenses to it that are simply not needed currently.

The one you should more likely be complaining about is the Wraithknight which was the one to ramp up the GMC stupidity if I remember correctly. That thing doesn't even need support and with your BA at least if they make it into combat they can hurt the riptide instead of standing there staring at the thing as it stomps them.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/10 23:07:54


Post by: the_scotsman


Psychic phase doesn't matter for all armies? Why? A single/a couple psykers is a really good TAC investment for pretty much any army.

You then get to tailor whether you want a good source of buffs or a decent ignores cover shooting unit depending on what enemy your facing. Just because it isn't Eldar or Librarius levels of bonkers doesn't mean they're not a really solid thing to include. And at very worst, if your opponent overloads you with psychic powers, a psyker is just a moderately expensive IC with a force axe.

A bike Libby, maybe a dread Libby if that's your bag as long as you have the army to support it is a solid inexpensive Hq with the potential to be really good in certain matchups, say, vs tau.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 04:15:21


Post by: redleger


The art of kanly is alive. /sigh


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 07:15:24


Post by: Naw


 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Riptides are ignorable while you kill off all of their Markerlight support. If my opponent fielded a Riptide Wing, I'd thank them for making my life easier, then precede on dismantling their list.

SJ


How quickly do you kill a full drone net? Some markerlights are easy to kill, but e.g. Piranhas, the drone net etc. are pretty tough to remove and while you try that the rest of the army will still be there.

Add to that the fact that 3 riptides can self buff their BS by +2 and they are not so dependent on the ML support anymore. By good use of target locks they can apply damage everywhere.

Martel got a biased view because of BA but it doesn't mean he is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kambien wrote:You refuse to bring allies , even though the rules totaly allow for it


An army should stand on its own. I don't think the allies mechanism has made this game better.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 11:08:15


Post by: gmaleron


Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 12:11:57


Post by: Akiasura


 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.



Yeah, insulting everyone while offering nothing constructive at all. That'll show everyone how wrong they've been!

3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has FnP, will not kill it on average. It's just basic math. You could get lucky and roll above the average, although it's more likely the Tau player will roll below his average in that case, but it's not a guarantee.
And grav cents are the one unit in the game designed to kill Riptides. The vast majority of armies need to get into melee combat in order to silence the guns this thing is sporting, and reaching melee with a fast unit that has incredibly long range weapons is no small feat. There are only a few armies that can manage it before turn 4 (Necrons, SM come to mind).

How do most armies handle this reasonably? Because the last time this came up, someone mentioned a single dominion squad. That....didn't work out.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 12:26:32


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


You know who else doesn't get to participate in the psychic phase? Black Templars. Apparently this makes us entitled to murder-stomping everyone in assault. Shame that doesn't work on Riptides...


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 13:19:33


Post by: Xenomancers


Riptide really needs to be dropped to 3+ save and go down a wound if it's cost is to remain the same. Otherwise it needs to cost what a wraith-knight costs. Because it is more durable than a WK and with support it is equally destructive vs it's preferred targets. Also - how is this thing not a LOW?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:09:42


Post by: Martel732


 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.



Actually, your position has been proven incorrect many times over. Tau players are giving false information about the weaknesses of the Riptide in a *practical setting*. Cover such as ruins really puts this thing over the top. Please find me the strong BA shenanigans if you want to be helpful.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:17:21


Post by: crazyK


Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:21:46


Post by: optrgrow


As a tau player I only use my riptides as distraction carnifex's. Hop on an objective, shoot a salvo but nothing more although they are great with interceptor.

Riptide wing, the past 3 times I have faced it with other armies, 2 out of 3 just made them fail leadership tests, the 3rd I just tied them up in CQC with a ton of boys and laughed as half their list became useless.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:25:33


Post by: pumaman1


Sorry xenomancers, it does not need warithknight cost. its not bs4, d weapon, T8,8 wounds, native fnp, fearless, 12" move, unstoppable etc..

-Insane Range: if you play tau on a terrain naked field, what do you expect? grab shoe boxes on the way to play, and add them as large buildings..
-Weight of fire: 1 blast shot (possibly ordinance) or 3 shots that are weaker. its not that much at the range you are talking about.
-Cheap interceptor making Deep strike suicide: it only takes 2 support systems, so if it takes interceptor, its taking it over another system. if you are playing with someone with FNP, target lock AND interceptor, they are cheating.
-AP 2 weapons: plasma rifle is plasma gun but weaker, fusion is melta but better so you win that one. the IA the riptide brings is s7/8/9 ap2, but you have tanks with s10 ap2 that cannot be killed with s3 mass fire.
-D missiles: only sD is using markerlight per missle, otherwise s8.
-Twin linked boosts- you mean a relic that the best shooting person in the army has to give up shooting to bestow to 1 unit? which cannot be riptide or storm surge? or the ones i have to use up 2 hard points pay extra for, and counts as 1 weapon?
-Over watch at full or better ballistic skills: i native overwatch at bs1 just like any non-dark angel. if i devote 3 units to it, i get bs2. if i shoot marker lights first (at bs1) and get some hits, then maybe it can be better. if you are charging with 3 units with LOS and within 12" of the charged unit, and ML support within that 12" i don't feel your shooting phase worked out to well.
-Access to high wounds monstrous creatures: This actually is more of a problem. the riptide at 5 wounds is a standard MC, but now that ghostkeel and storm surge were added, when at LEAST the storm surge should be a walker..
-Units that destroy vehicles with rear armor : oh yeah, OSC is broken as hell. i would say to my credit, i dont bring it. not a WAAC player
-Shoot. > Jet away behind LOS tactics: if entering or exiting terrain should take dangerous terrain tests, the 2nd jump is 2d6", so might just leave their critical unit exposed to a bad roll. take advantage of their whopping 6" move to reduce the damage they can do after the first move
-Supporting fire: same strategy as in 6th ed, declare charge with some unit that's nearly dead, or 2+ armor to soak up wounds, then charge with your real unit. outside of longstrike, no one can fire more than 1 overwatch. cannot split fire in overwatch.

NAW: riptides cannot self buff by 2. either they are 3 units firing together to get +1 bs, or they are 3 in 1 unit, to get fire teams +1 bs. by wording on the rules, you'd need 9 riptides all firing at the same thing to have them self buff by 2.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:32:06


Post by: Xenomancers


 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:57:38


Post by: notredameguy10


 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptide really needs to be dropped to 3+ save and go down a wound if it's cost is to remain the same. Otherwise it needs to cost what a wraith-knight costs. Because it is more durable than a WK and with support it is equally destructive vs it's preferred targets. Also - how is this thing not a LOW?


Again, durability DOES NOT dictate the entirety of the price of a model. The wraith knight is a GC, has D weapons, and has T8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.


Guess what? "Experimental rules" are now 100% legal to play in normal 40k


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 14:58:55


Post by: Korinov


 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.


I usually play Chaos Space Marines. I killed a Riptide once. It took me three turns of shooting with two squads of Havocs (one of them having two lascannons and two missile launchers, the other four autocannons), then shooting at it and charging with a two-melta Raptor squad. And I only managed to kill it thanks to some unlucky rolls on the part of my opponent.

So please tell me what kind of "strong shenanigans" can I employ to bring it down quickly, in a constructive way.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:00:41


Post by: notredameguy10


 pumaman1 wrote:

NAW: riptides cannot self buff by 2. either they are 3 units firing together to get +1 bs, or they are 3 in 1 unit, to get fire teams +1 bs. by wording on the rules, you'd need 9 riptides all firing at the same thing to have them self buff by 2.


This depends on how you play CFP. RAW 3 separate riptides all firing together using CFP would get +2


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:04:47


Post by: pumaman1


As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:15:55


Post by: notredameguy10


 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.


Unless you are using CFP, in which they "fire as if one unit", meaning they are counted as one unit for firing and get the fire team bonus


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:21:16


Post by: BoomWolf


As CSM, you can't fight anything anyway with the sad codex you currently have. It's not unique to the riptide.

For the bazillion time, using a non functional codex as your argument is not a proper argument.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:23:05


Post by: Xenomancers


notredameguy10 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptide really needs to be dropped to 3+ save and go down a wound if it's cost is to remain the same. Otherwise it needs to cost what a wraith-knight costs. Because it is more durable than a WK and with support it is equally destructive vs it's preferred targets. Also - how is this thing not a LOW?


Again, durability DOES NOT dictate the entirety of the price of a model. The wraith knight is a GC, has D weapons, and has T8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.


Guess what? "Experimental rules" are now 100% legal to play in normal 40k

How is it any different than me making up rules and playing with them? "Experimental rules" is essentially forge-world admitting that this thing is not balanced within the game.

Durability is a huge factor when you have a MF str 9 ap2 large blast with enormous range. Why do people shoot vindicators off the table? because they hurt! Riptides are essentially indestructible vindicators with unlimited range. How can you say their offense is bad?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:34:32


Post by: pumaman1


Well lets drop that entire line of argument for cfp, as its off topic to the thread, has had a few dozen threads, and has seen no large, or even small consensus.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:40:16


Post by: notredameguy10


 pumaman1 wrote:
Well lets drop that entire line of argument for cfp, as its off topic to the thread, has had a few dozen threads, and has seen no large, or even small consensus.


Will do, but I beg to differ that there wasn't a consensus


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:42:21


Post by: Martel732


"The wraith knight is a GC, has D weapons, and has T8."

And is undercosted by 150 pts. At least.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:49:18


Post by: notredameguy10


 Xenomancers wrote:

How is it any different than me making up rules and playing with them? "Experimental rules" is essentially forge-world admitting that this thing is not balanced within the game.


Thats not what experimental rules means. That was used in the past as the initial rules that may still be tweaked before the model is released in an actual forge world book


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 15:56:08


Post by: Crazyterran


Four Grav Centurions over kill a Riptide, can probably kill two if they are in a squad. Blast them right off the board.

If you can't get Draigo or a Imperial Bunker to slingshot them forward 18" (or more, with Draigo) turn one, then that's not the Centurion's problem.

But yes, the fact that DA and BA can only really get effective Grav Weaponry on Bikes is a problem. Allies can fix it, but not everyone wants to paint up a squad or two of white Centurions/Bike Command Squad to deal with it. (Since, if you are allying for Centurions, might as well make it a White Scars detachment with a Librarian carrying the Hunter's Eye and rolling for Divination.)


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 16:17:27


Post by: pumaman1


Just so i am clear, how is grav weaponry on a bike a bad thing? a fast moving, relentless, t5 unit, that isn't generally considered overcosted for performance


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 16:19:10


Post by: Akiasura


It's bad because cents exist


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 16:23:33


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

In WHAT perfect world are you catching a Riptide with Cultists?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 16:29:55


Post by: pumaman1


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

In WHAT perfect world are you catching a Riptide with Cultists?


we played with plenty of buildings, i moved to within 9" to get LOS because the building was in the way, naively confident in my large blast, and jet thrust. the blast scattered 10" away, the 2ndary weapons didn't wound, and then i jet thrusted 2" (rotten luck). so the cultists just needed to land a 5" charge. i will say this was my 2nd or 3rd game ever, but it did in fact happen.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 16:59:44


Post by: Xenomancers


notredameguy10 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

How is it any different than me making up rules and playing with them? "Experimental rules" is essentially forge-world admitting that this thing is not balanced within the game.


Thats not what experimental rules means. That was used in the past as the initial rules that may still be tweaked before the model is released in an actual forge world book

So they are legal now why? because they don't need to be tweaked? Calling them experimental for what purpose? Just cause it sounds cool?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 19:11:00


Post by: 1PlusLogan


Experimental just means they aren't published in an Imperial Armour book, nothing else.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 19:19:15


Post by: Xenomancers


 1PlusLogan wrote:
Experimental just means they aren't published in an Imperial Armour book, nothing else.

Per FW - that is not what it means. Per FW it means it hasn't been play tested and might need "tweaks".


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 20:15:47


Post by: pumaman1


I have to agree with Xenomancers on this one, because the Ta'Unar doesn't have the experimental stamp, and they are the newest tau rules.
That said, I don't think running forgeworld riptides around 40k games is really ok for an already upper tier codex


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 20:18:53


Post by: BoomWolf


Yep, experimental is "not fully tested and subject to radical changes"


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 20:28:24


Post by: Kap'n Krump


I had to check the date on the thread to make sure it wasn't necro'd, as this is a, what, 4-year old topic? When did riptides come out?

At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.

At least you actually have useful ranged Ap2 to deal with them. And you don't have to worry about fear tests in CC!

I get tired of my warbossi failing fear tests. Last time was with the FW boss + bike in combat with castellans, and I thought it particularly funny because I think the warboss model was larger than the castellans, yet was afraid of them.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 21:02:17


Post by: Jancoran


The IDEA of anything can get in your head. There's a thread regarding how to go after a Riptide Wing which I am probably goingto find is a more worthwhile discussion than getting people to rally around the idea that they can't be beaten.

Maybe join that thread and discuss good ways to tackle it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 21:09:15


Post by: Spetulhu


 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.


Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 21:28:52


Post by: Jancoran


Spetulhu wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.


Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!


And other assume that those are somehow free points. You justy breeze right past the cost.

Basically... the Riptide is in essence... a 200 point basilisk that does damage to itself and potentially wont fire, pays more points because its more armored. More or less. and it's about 250-300 points depending on the Markerlights it expends to get high accuracy. riiiiiiight. This is the boogeyman? this thing that can be stopped in melee? its not an Imperial Knight! it's not a Wraith Knight! It's not even close to those in effect. So what is all the angst about?

It is an excellent unit. No one should be denyng it. What do you want Tau Empire generals to do. Win with just Crisis Teams? Are you nuts? of all the unreliable things that Tau Geneals have pined their hopes to, Crisis teams are the biggest sales job of all time!

i only use two because you only need two. I understand the distaste for people who basically look through a codex and Stelek-spam "good things" as if that was going to win them anything. I know those kinds of things probably kill a lot of stuff in local games but here's something i know about gamer nature: No one likes their cheese moved. The adaptable Generals will see it once, get crushed, and modify their thought process to include this new threat and then the big bad wolf is screwed. I tore through a War Convocation the SECOND time I saw it. I won against a Battle Company th SECOND time i saw it.

Everyone whose incapable of taking their beating initially or even a couple of times with grace and learning from it is going to say the SAME THINGS about Space Wolves pretty soon. And about Tyranids. And Dark Eldar...and whatever else comes along. Yip. Absolutely going to happen. Because losing is so loathesome to some that the thought of it makes them angry. Whatever caused it makes them angry and they never blame themselves, do they?

Losses aren't personal.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 21:33:25


Post by: notredameguy10


 pumaman1 wrote:
I have to agree with Xenomancers on this one, because the Ta'Unar doesn't have the experimental stamp, and they are the newest tau rules.
That said, I don't think running forgeworld riptides around 40k games is really ok for an already upper tier codex


Doesn't matter what you think is ok. GW has already said that they are all 100% legal


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 21:37:35


Post by: Jancoran


Forge World = fail. I don't count Forge World as part of the Tau Codex so any discussion about THOSE rules is fine, but I think the distinction needs to be made between Tau armies played normally and those that include...that.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 21:59:41


Post by: Vaktathi


You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:06:40


Post by: Jancoran


 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:06:48


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.


Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!


And other assume that those are somehow free points. You justy breeze right past the cost.

Basically... the Riptide is in essence... a 200 point basilisk that does damage to itself and potentially wont fire, pays more points because its more armored. More or less. and it's about 250-300 points depending on the Markerlights it expends to get high accuracy. riiiiiiight. This is the boogeyman? this thing that can be stopped in melee? its not an Imperial Knight! it's not a Wraith Knight! It's not even close to those in effect. So what is all the angst about?

It is an excellent unit. No one should be denyng it. What do you want Tau Empire generals to do. Win with just Crisis Teams? Are you nuts? of all the unreliable things that Tau Geneals have pined their hopes to, Crisis teams are the biggest sales job of all time!

i only use two because you only need two. I understand the distaste for people who basically look through a codex and Stelek-spam "good things" as if that was going to win them anything. I know those kinds of things probably kill a lot of stuff in local games but here's something i know about gamer nature: No one likes their cheese moved. The adaptable Generals will see it once, get crushed, and modify their thought process to include this new threat and then the big bad wolf is screwed. I tore through a War Convocation the SECOND time I saw it. I won against a Battle Company th SECOND time i saw it.

Everyone whose incapable of taking their beating initially or even a couple of times with grace and learning from it is going to say the SAME THINGS about Space Wolves pretty soon. And about Tyranids. And Dark Eldar...and whatever else comes along. Yip. Absolutely going to happen. Because losing is so loathesome to some that the thought of it makes them angry. Whatever caused it makes them angry and they never blame themselves, do they?

Losses aren't personal.


That's a lot of text to say "git good".


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:08:00


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.


Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!


And other assume that those are somehow free points. You justy breeze right past the cost.

Basically... the Riptide is in essence... a 200 point basilisk that does damage to itself and potentially wont fire, pays more points because its more armored. More or less. and it's about 250-300 points depending on the Markerlights it expends to get high accuracy. riiiiiiight. This is the boogeyman? this thing that can be stopped in melee? its not an Imperial Knight! it's not a Wraith Knight! It's not even close to those in effect. So what is all the angst about?

It is an excellent unit. No one should be denyng it. What do you want Tau Empire generals to do. Win with just Crisis Teams? Are you nuts? of all the unreliable things that Tau Geneals have pined their hopes to, Crisis teams are the biggest sales job of all time!

i only use two because you only need two. I understand the distaste for people who basically look through a codex and Stelek-spam "good things" as if that was going to win them anything. I know those kinds of things probably kill a lot of stuff in local games but here's something i know about gamer nature: No one likes their cheese moved. The adaptable Generals will see it once, get crushed, and modify their thought process to include this new threat and then the big bad wolf is screwed. I tore through a War Convocation the SECOND time I saw it. I won against a Battle Company th SECOND time i saw it.

Everyone whose incapable of taking their beating initially or even a couple of times with grace and learning from it is going to say the SAME THINGS about Space Wolves pretty soon. And about Tyranids. And Dark Eldar...and whatever else comes along. Yip. Absolutely going to happen. Because losing is so loathesome to some that the thought of it makes them angry. Whatever caused it makes them angry and they never blame themselves, do they?

Losses aren't personal.


That's a lot of text to say "git good".


I didn't say git good. I don't like that response. What I AM saying is that people who don't do anything to modify their tactics or their list and would rather tear the other guy down than change are reprehensible. I think that's closer to the mark.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:13:18


Post by: Vaktathi


 Jancoran wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.
there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:16:39


Post by: Jancoran


 Vaktathi wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.
there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.


That isn't what I'm choosing to base my "discrimination" on. When you choose to properly state my case on it, we can talk. It isn't relevant to the Riptide discussion other than insofar as generalizations being made about Tau. My warning is to distinguish between the two ways people choose to allow them to be played. And a lot of people don't allow the Forge World models to be played, including the ITC which has banned and/or limited many.

So...


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:16:43


Post by: Martel732


There is, to me, a missing component to your analysis as well. The Riptide is more than uparmored from a Basilisk. It can't be suppressed either. Melta is the primary BA anti-tank weaponry. A drop melta team will almost assuredly suppress a Basilisk. The same team either dies to interceptor or puts a wound or two on the Riptide.

I'm not sure what modifications can be made in a general sense to BA that allows me to survive Riptides that isn't outright list tailoring.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:17:30


Post by: jreilly89


 Vaktathi wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.
there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.


But Tau are the ones being discriminated against


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:23:06


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
There is, to me, a missing component to your analysis as well. The Riptide is more than uparmored from a Basilisk. It can't be suppressed either. Melta is the primary BA anti-tank weaponry. A drop melta team will almost assuredly suppress a Basilisk. The same team either dies to interceptor or puts a wound or two on the Riptide.

I'm not sure what modifications can be made in a general sense to BA that allows me to survive Riptides that isn't outright list tailoring.


It actually CAN be suppressed. its not fearless. Also, the Riptide can be killed, you just arent going to cheap shot it. thus... the price. Which is much higher than the Basilisk and was the aforementioned armor. Armor in this case is both in Hull points (wounds) and saves.

No matter the way you look at it, the riptide isn't free. markerlights aren't free. None of its free. So until it somehow can stop you from charging it (it cant, other than the same way every army can so no difference there) stop you from attacking LD (its not fearless) and stop you from punishing it with, say, a D weapon or Blood Angelss missiles and so on... I think the case against it is vastly overstated.

I get that no one likes to lose. I'm not trying to lose. I'm also not sitting here lambasting any particular unit as heresy and casting long shadows over the players who DARE the audacity to field it. Lol.

So I guess I understand and agree 100% when people say its a very good unit. I have exhibited no false modesty on that point. i disagree 100% withthe mis-characterization of it and its players. That's where I'm drawing the line. A blind person could tell you Riptides are good and their Riptide Wing (the discussion point here) is better. Anyone saying otherwise really is lying to you.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:26:11


Post by: Martel732


It can't be suppressed in a reliable manner is a better way to state it. LD-based attacked are very rare, and catching it in assault is very, very difficult. I'm not talking about cheap shots. Plus, drop melta squads aren't that cheap, because anything marine is not that cheap.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:27:57


Post by: Korinov


 BoomWolf wrote:
As CSM, you can't fight anything anyway with the sad codex you currently have. It's not unique to the riptide.

For the bazillion time, using a non functional codex as your argument is not a proper argument.


I can put up a decent fight against most 7th edition codices. The 7.5 ones, though, not a bloody chance (unless the opponent brings a quite restrained and/or specially fluffy list).

So the CSM codex is functional, although of course not in an optimal way. And the Riptide is overpowered, it's been since the very day it was introduced to the game.

I can only dream one day Riptides are turned into what they should be, walker vehicles, just to see the Tau fanbase dissolving itself into its own tears.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:32:09


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
It can't be suppressed in a reliable manner is a better way to state it. LD-based attacked are very rare, and catching it in assault is very, very difficult. I'm not talking about cheap shots. Plus, drop melta squads aren't that cheap, because anything marine is not that cheap.


LD attacks actually are not rare. Actually. And catching it assault: also not rare.

So what are you talking about? Are you talking about an army that REFUSES to adopt a strategy that makes it not rare? because thats just you setting YOURSELF up for failure, not the Riptide setting you up for it.

So you now know how to go after a Riptide Wing. useful discussion has been brought to the table. i notice you made no comment on my advice in this regard so maybe scroll back and also yoyoyo i think added some pretty valid things for you to consider.

So consider them.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:33:31


Post by: Martel732


How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:34:30


Post by: Bharring


Even podded Malta isn't great.
Typically:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 20/54, or 10/27.

To get 5 wounds, that averages 13.5 Melta shots, for just a 50% chance to kill the jerk.

So were talking more than a 10man Sternie or FD squad to drop a single Riptide.

Melta Drops don't answer Riptides.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:36:18


Post by: Vaktathi


 Jancoran wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.
there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.


That isn't what I'm choosing to base my "discrimination" on. When you choose to properly state my case on it, we can talk
what..that Forgeworld = fail? That was about the only differentiator you put forward.

It isn't relevant to the Riptide discussion other than insofar as generalizations being made about Tau.
why not? Theyre similar units with similar abilities based on roughly the same chassis and considered close equivalents by most people.

My warning is to distinguish between the two ways people choose to allow them to be played. And a lot of people don't allow the Forge World models to be played, including the ITC which has banned and/or limited many.
The only stuff they restrict is (at least last time i checked) LoW units with lots of ignores cover stuff and pre 6E army lists.

 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It can't be suppressed in a reliable manner is a better way to state it. LD-based attacked are very rare, and catching it in assault is very, very difficult. I'm not talking about cheap shots. Plus, drop melta squads aren't that cheap, because anything marine is not that cheap.


LD attacks actually are not rare.
care to mention any that are commonly available, particularly that arent psychic powers? Such attacks are, while not unheard of, some of the rarest in the game.

Actually. And catching it assault: also not rare.
its not impossible, but between its range and Jet move, its not exactly easy.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:36:47


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.


Oh that would be because anyone taking Telepathy has them accessible. thats how. so do Blood Angels in their Sanguinary Discipline. So do Dark Eldar and DEFINITELY Haemonnculous covens and also Harlequins.

You need more examples? Okay. Eldar. There's a pretty common army with a pretty good access to it.

Aside from this you have: Assault. Every single faction has access to this LD attack.

I also note that Fear is not that uncommon and that certain factions get it quite freely.

So that is how.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi 679494 8446327 2639c6bd2a42e71422 wrote:
what..that Forgeworld = fail? That was about the only differentiator you put forward.



We've had this discussion, you and I. So don't play obtuse. You know what my points of contention were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
Even podded Malta isn't great.
Typically:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 20/54, or 10/27.

To get 5 wounds, that averages 13.5 Melta shots, for just a 50% chance to kill the jerk.

So were talking more than a 10man Sternie or FD squad to drop a single Riptide.

Melta Drops don't answer Riptides.


Nope. i never listed it as an option. Also: should you reasonably expect to kill something that is 200 points in one round with ONE unit? Most things like that dont die so easily. this isnt new or unique to a Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cut and pasted from the other thread for reference:

Here's a fact: when dealing with Riptide Wings there is one sure fire thing they don't like, right? Attacks on their Leadership and assaults. Since we are talking about Riptide Wings and YOU are bringing up Blood Angels, i am assuming you want to know what to do about Riptide Wings with Blood Angels.

So if that is actually what you want to know, i am actually observing that the AV 13 helps them stand up very well to the Riptide when it tries to end you. Riptide guns come in two varieties and they basically both need 6's to hurt the Dread (unlss they want to do the gets hot thing or Nova Reactor thing in which case you may get free wounds on the beast). Extra Armor will help a lot so you don't get stuck in place on the drop of course. Worst case he' got a 50/50 chance of taking a hull point off IF he doesn't scatter. So its actually NOT the worst suggestion ever for handling some Riptides.

Fear of the Darkness will help you drive off a Riptide potentially. It is certainly no guarantee, but it cannot be discounted either as a tool.

Your Vanguard Veterans can all have Grav pistols if you wished and when they drop from the Storm Raven, this can be pretty darn conclusive if you include a couple Thunderhammers or Powerfists into the mix. You have to stand the StormRaven up for a round and that can be a challenge if the enemy has enough anti-air. An interesting second option here is a Rhino going full out round one, and using the Wings of Sanguinus power on the Vanguard after they move. this gives them 18" movement in round 1, which should set them up for a round 2 charge as good as any the Storm Raven could have delivered. Strategic Warlord Traits could make this easier as well. So you could go one or both ways with it.

The Blood Angels also have Feel No Pain generators as you know and when one is near Mephiston, je can't be instant kill'd by a Riptide Wing. He also is an independent character thatr can be in the Vanguard and leading them to tank the Instant death stuff with FnP. he has access to Biomancy as well which could be useful o nthe approach. Again, this would be if you are eschewing the Storm Raven. If you loaded just him and a Dreadnought in the Storm Raven, he can survive being blown out and proceed to terrorize or join the Vanguard unit later.

And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

Again, just some thoughts on it. I think I would have as my anti-Riptide Wing core:

4 Furioso's
Mephiston (Sword of Sanguinis for ending those silly Riptides? Yes please!)
2 Librarians (level 2 and more Force Weapons)
Sanguinary Priest
Storm Raven
4 units of troops
5 Drop Pods
1 Rhino
10 Vanguard Veterans (Grav pistols x5, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist)

No idea what those points look like, but those are good tools for killing a Riptide Wing and for that matter, other things also.

If you want guarantees, I'm fresh out. But that's a lot of Force Weapons and high end high armor killing machines. A pretty good amount of Obsec. Good amount of options for deployment, enough antitank to choke a horse in there most likely.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:46:29


Post by: jreilly89


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.


Oh that would be because anyone taking Telepathy has them accessible. thats how. so do Blood Angels in their Sanguinary Discipline. So do Dark Eldar and DEFINITELY Haemonnculous covens and also Harlequins.

You need more examples? Okay. Eldar. There's a pretty common army with a pretty good access to it.

Aside from this you have: Assault. Every single faction has access to this LD attack.

I also note that Fear is not that uncommon and that certain factions get it quite freely.

So that is how.


To beat a broken army, take a broken army?


Cut and pasted from the other thread for reference:

Here's a fact: when dealing with Riptide Wings there is one sure fire thing they don't like, right? Attacks on their Leadership and assaults. Since we are talking about Riptide Wings and YOU are bringing up Blood Angels, i am assuming you want to know what to do about Riptide Wings with Blood Angels.

So if that is actually what you want to know, i am actually observing that the AV 13 helps them stand up very well to the Riptide when it tries to end you. Riptide guns come in two varieties and they basically both need 6's to hurt the Dread (unlss they want to do the gets hot thing or Nova Reactor thing in which case you may get free wounds on the beast). Extra Armor will help a lot so you don't get stuck in place on the drop of course. Worst case he' got a 50/50 chance of taking a hull point off IF he doesn't scatter. So its actually NOT the worst suggestion ever for handling some Riptides.

Fear of the Darkness will help you drive off a Riptide potentially. It is certainly no guarantee, but it cannot be discounted either as a tool.

Your Vanguard Veterans can all have Grav pistols if you wished and when they drop from the Storm Raven, this can be pretty darn conclusive if you include a couple Thunderhammers or Powerfists into the mix. You have to stand the StormRaven up for a round and that can be a challenge if the enemy has enough anti-air. An interesting second option here is a Rhino going full out round one, and using the Wings of Sanguinus power on the Vanguard after they move. this gives them 18" movement in round 1, which should set them up for a round 2 charge as good as any the Storm Raven could have delivered. Strategic Warlord Traits could make this easier as well. So you could go one or both ways with it.

The Blood Angels also have Feel No Pain generators as you know and when one is near Mephiston, je can't be instant kill'd by a Riptide Wing. He also is an independent character thatr can be in the Vanguard and leading them to tank the Instant death stuff with FnP. he has access to Biomancy as well which could be useful o nthe approach. Again, this would be if you are eschewing the Storm Raven. If you loaded just him and a Dreadnought in the Storm Raven, he can survive being blown out and proceed to terrorize or join the Vanguard unit later.

And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

Again, just some thoughts on it. I think I would have as my anti-Riptide Wing core:

4 Furioso's
Mephiston (Sword of Sanguinis for ending those silly Riptides? Yes please!)
2 Librarians (level 2 and more Force Weapons)
Sanguinary Priest
Storm Raven
4 units of troops
5 Drop Pods
1 Rhino
10 Vanguard Veterans (Grav pistols x5, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist)

No idea what those points look like, but those are good tools for killing a Riptide Wing and for that matter, other things also.

If you want guarantees, I'm fresh out. But that's a lot of Force Weapons and high end high armor killing machines. A pretty good amount of Obsec. Good amount of options for deployment, enough antitank to choke a horse in there most likely.


Jancoran, the problem is look at what you'[re dedicating to kill three Riptides. That's ignoring the other 1400 points of the army. Honestly, you've a better shot of just ignoring the Riptide, killing all the squishies, and camping objectives than killing him, unless you have Psychic out the wazuu.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:49:15


Post by: Vaktathi


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.


Oh that would be because anyone taking Telepathy has them accessible. thats how. so do Blood Angels in their Sanguinary Discipline. So do Dark Eldar and DEFINITELY Haemonnculous covens and also Harlequins.

You need more examples? Okay. Eldar. There's a pretty common army with a pretty good access to it.
...this is a very thin list...going by this it certainly sounds like Ld attacks are rare, a couple psychic powers and a couple niche supplements that primarily jive with the ones that already have access to said psychic powers...


Aside from this you have: Assault. Every single faction has access to this LD attack.
so we're reclassifying assault as an LD attck now...?


I also note that Fear is not that uncommon and that certain factions get it quite freely.
which doesnt do anything to affect the riptide until you actually catch it, and with its low WS isnt doing much of anything even if thy fail the LD test.






We've had this discussion, you and I. So don't play obtuse. You know what my points of contention were.
everything apparently, except none that couldnt be applied with the exact same logic to tons of stuff you didnt seem to mind, after which you'd typically just evade after such was pointed out

Much like you are now...speaking of being obtuse...




Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 22:52:55


Post by: Bharring


Jan,
I know you didn't argue it. And when it comes to the current "7.5" level, I agree with your argument. But somebody did suggest it, so I wanted to point that out.

The units we are talking about are in the 300-400 point range, but still, on average, do a little less than 4 wounds assuming no FnP.

There are answers in the current meta. Someone suggested Melta pods was one of them, but it is not.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 23:23:31


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


 Jancoran wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?


No. I mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.


Could've sworn the resin sprue's I just bought, have Games Workshop LTD on them. (They also have numbers on)


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 23:32:26


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Don't bother. Jancoran thinks that there's a 500+ point deathstar with AM that works and thinks FW is the devil, all while playing in a CAAC environment.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/11 23:55:21


Post by: Jancoran


 jreilly89 wrote:


Jancoran, the problem is look at what you'[re dedicating to kill three Riptides. That's ignoring the other 1400 points of the army. Honestly, you've a better shot of just ignoring the Riptide, killing all the squishies, and camping objectives than killing him, unless you have Psychic out the wazuu.


No problem at all. This was in direct response to someone wanting to know how to deal with that specific threat. I gave a specific answer. So no problem.

As for the rest of the army, i sort of imagine that this is a given. We understand that the rest of the army must be accounted for. I agree. And given a specific list I could advise more. But given none, this advice was good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:


Oh ...this is a very thin list...g




Thats not a thin list. the list of people with access to hat power isn't thin at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:

so we're reclassifying assault as an LD attck now...?



No. We're classsifying it as an LD attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:

everything apparently, except none that couldnt be applied with the exact same logic to tons of stuff you didnt seem to mind, after which you'd typically just evade after such was pointed out

Much like you are now...speaking of being obtuse...




I do take it upon myself to try and keep things on topic as much as possible. and that does require me NOT to get troll'd by someone who insists on pursuing a subject that isn't really the point of the thread. is it completely avoidable? Nope. But I'm not into allowing myself to be troll'd anymore than possible. So yeah. i dont engage you when you troll me and i DONT see it as poor form. i see it as wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:


Could've sworn the resin sprue's I just bought, have Games Workshop LTD on them. (They also have numbers on)


That might be true and yet...has nothing to do with what I said, really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't bother. Jancoran thinks that there's a 500+ point deathstar with AM that works and thinks FW is the devil, all while playing in a CAAC environment.


Oh goody. Look whose decided to try and drag his grudges in and start a fight! It's Slayer-Fan.

Well Slayer-Fan, we're not talking about IG in this thread. Moving on.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 00:22:06


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


4 Grav-Centurions do 5.761... wounds to an FNP riptide on average outside of cover. That's not even almost close to killing two Riptides, it's not even one wound over killing one. Further, in 4+ cover the Riptide with FNP takes on average 4.3... wounds from four Grav-cents, not counting the bolters. You'll note that 4.3 is less than the 5 wounds of the Riptide. 4 Grav-Cents with a slingshot bastion is also 420 points, at which point you're having to deal with almost two Riptides as opposed to one. As I said, not even Grav-centurions counter Riptides, and people in this thread are honestly advocating chasing it down with a Librarian and punching it to death.

A major reason for the abysmal power of BA or BT is the fact that Riptides exist in the first place.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 00:37:49


Post by: Grimskul


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
4 Grav-Centurions do 5.761... wounds to an FNP riptide on average outside of cover. That's not even almost close to killing two Riptides, it's not even one wound over killing one. Further, in 4+ cover the Riptide with FNP takes on average 4.3... wounds from four Grav-cents, not counting the bolters. You'll note that 4.3 is less than the 5 wounds of the Riptide. 4 Grav-Cents with a slingshot bastion is also 420 points, at which point you're having to deal with almost two Riptides as opposed to one. As I said, not even Grav-centurions counter Riptides, and people in this thread are honestly advocating chasing it down with a Librarian and punching it to death.

A major reason for the abysmal power of BA or BT is the fact that Riptides exist in the first place.


Indeed. Even with my MANZ missiles or warbikers, its very hard to guarantee tying up a Riptide in CC or shooting it down in one turn and because MC's have no real way to locking down its firepower or movement like vehicles (outside of obscure/rare psychic powers or special abilities) for their points cost its unreasonable with how many points you have to invest to deal with it reliably. Sure taking out markerlights is an aspect of minimizing the damage they can cause but with new things like drone net formation making it even harder to prevent that and the Riptide's ridiculous combination of multi-layered protection, damage output and mobility it really needs an overhaul.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 00:47:48


Post by: gmaleron


Akiasura wrote:
Yeah, insulting everyone while offering nothing constructive at all. That'll show everyone how wrong they've been! 3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has FnP, will not kill it on average. It's just basic math. You could get lucky and roll above the average, although it's more likely the Tau player will roll below his average in that case, but it's not a guarantee. And grav cents are the one unit in the game designed to kill Riptides. The vast majority of armies need to get into melee combat in order to silence the guns this thing is sporting, and reaching melee with a fast unit that has incredibly long range weapons is no small feat. There are only a few armies that can manage it before turn 4 (Necrons, SM come to mind).How do most armies handle this reasonably? Because the last time this came up, someone mentioned a single dominion squad. That....didn't work out.

Constantly complaining about something that has already been covered in multiple threads isn't constructive either, just saying. Its not an insult so don't take it as one, just pointing out the constant "Riptide OP" talk that seems to take over any Tau thread is getting old and been proven false. Martel no you haven't proven anything, its been well established if your BA cant kick the crap out of it that means it must be OP. Also plenty of people including me have offered constructive thinking in other threads, yet as usual they are all ignored and drowned out by the cries of "nerf it till its usless!".

And I really don't understand the comments of "I can never catch a Riptide". If you are playing on a 6x4 table it is really not that hard at all, everytime I hear this I have to take it as an exaggeration because its quite frankly foolish to think that you cant catch one with only a 6 inch movement and random 2d6 movement on top of a large base on a standard 6x4 table. Also for whoever brought up Chaos its no secret that you are comparing an old Codex to a recently updated one, the CSM need an update bad but the Cultist Swarm tactic as mentioned is actually a decent one. Khorne Demonkin and Demon Prince spam is also an effective way to drop Riptides via being better MC's in CC and having psychic shenanigans but as mentioned CSM struggle against ALL of the 7.5 Codex's, it is a lack of update issue not just the fault of the Tau. Also LoS blocking terrain goes a long way as well and terrain in general, take out the Marker Lights (which has been explained repeatedly) and terrain becomes an advantage.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 01:19:04


Post by: Jancoran


Bring faster units. Adapt. Stop taking nothing but special weapons and start thinking a little more globally. I dont know what the answer truly is for any one persons list. i DO know that constructive ideas do more for your results than moping.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 01:29:30


Post by: Quickjager


Janc say L2P one more fething time.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 01:57:39


Post by: Akiasura


 gmaleron wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Yeah, insulting everyone while offering nothing constructive at all. That'll show everyone how wrong they've been! 3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has FnP, will not kill it on average. It's just basic math. You could get lucky and roll above the average, although it's more likely the Tau player will roll below his average in that case, but it's not a guarantee. And grav cents are the one unit in the game designed to kill Riptides. The vast majority of armies need to get into melee combat in order to silence the guns this thing is sporting, and reaching melee with a fast unit that has incredibly long range weapons is no small feat. There are only a few armies that can manage it before turn 4 (Necrons, SM come to mind).How do most armies handle this reasonably? Because the last time this came up, someone mentioned a single dominion squad. That....didn't work out.

Constantly complaining about something that has already been covered in multiple threads isn't constructive either, just saying. Its not an insult so don't take it as one, just pointing out the constant "Riptide OP" talk that seems to take over any Tau thread is getting old and been proven false.

It's not constructive, I'll grant you that, but you flat out insulted people in your original post. If it was quoted here, I'd do you the favor of bolding it since you might be unaware.
Regardless, no one has proven anything. If it was proven, a quick link or repeat would quash the thread rather quickly.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel no you haven't proven anything, its been well established if your BA cant kick the crap out of it that means it must be OP. Also plenty of people including me have offered constructive thinking in other threads, yet as usual they are all ignored and drowned out by the cries of "nerf it till its usless!".

I've yet to see any constructive advice in this thread or the other threads mentioning the riptides that isn't "Take grav cents" or incredibly exaggerated claims. I'm not saying you've made such claims, but things like Force weapons, a dominion squad, and 4 grav cents tackling 2 have been suggested. And none of those are reasonable.
Grav does work, but only 1 army has good access to grav. It's hardly a good solution.

 gmaleron wrote:

And I really don't understand the comments of "I can never catch a Riptide". If you are playing on a 6x4 table it is really not that hard at all, everytime I hear this I have to take it as an exaggeration because its quite frankly foolish to think that you cant catch one with only a 6 inch movement and random 2d6 movement on top of a large base on a standard 6x4 table.

The reason it's sounding like an exaggeration is because you are misunderstanding what is being said.
Given 6 turns, most units can catch the Riptide. That's hardly useful, it's done 6 turns of damage after all and it's got good firepower. Even the faster units, like jump packs, still won't reach melee until T4. That's...okay, but in 4 turns it likely has done enough damage.
Bikes are the only units that are fast enough to catch the riptide in a reasonable amount of time, outside of teleporting/deepstriking and hoping the rest of the tau army doesn't wipe the squad out. It takes an absurd amount of deep striking points to kill a riptide, and unlike a vehicle, it operates quite well at any wound amount.

Even if it deploys opposite you, a unit with jump packs in 3 turns will only cross 36 + 21 on average run distance. On a board that is 72" across that isn't good enough to catch it, assuming it doesn't move at all.
That's why people are saying its very hard to catch the Riptide. Because it is, before it has done it's damage. By the end of the game, sure I'll catch it. But who cares?

I believe I provided a breakdown like this earlier.

 gmaleron wrote:

Also for whoever brought up Chaos its no secret that you are comparing an old Codex to a recently updated one, the CSM need an update bad but the Cultist Swarm tactic as mentioned is actually a decent one. Khorne Demonkin and Demon Prince spam is also an effective way to drop Riptides via being better MC's in CC and having psychic shenanigans but as mentioned CSM struggle against ALL of the 7.5 Codex's, it is a lack of update issue not just the fault of the Tau. Also LoS blocking terrain goes a long way as well and terrain in general, take out the Marker Lights (which has been explained repeatedly) and terrain becomes an advantage.

I agree that the Chaos dex is awful, but the cultist swarm is a terrible strategy against tau. You're talking about an army (not just the riptide) that can spam Str 5 guns with removes cover relatively easily available. Tau destroy armies that rely on cover, like cultists do.
I play tau as well, and I can't tell you the last time I was charged by basic infantry. It's usually TWC or Wraiths, occasionally some kind of star, usually Turn 4 or so unless I move forward for some reason.

Taking out the marker lights is easier said than done. I don't think I've lost mine before Turn 5, and rarely lose a significant amount before Turn 3. You really need them gone ASAP before the riptide has time to practically delete a few squads.


If someone wants to put forward a valid strategy that isn't "Take OP option from codex X, apply to face" I'll listen. Grav cents being a solution to most problems isn't exactly news


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 02:37:48


Post by: Relapse


Rich Kilton beat a 3 Riptide army with his Orks at the LVO. I'll ask him what his full army was, but I know it was mainly boyz without any Gargants.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 03:29:35


Post by: Spetulhu


Relapse wrote:
Rich Kilton beat a 3 Riptide army with his Orks at the LVO. I'll ask him what his full army was, but I know it was mainly boyz without any Gargants.


A wild guess would be he beat them by ignoring the Riptides and killing everything else.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 04:51:54


Post by: Relapse


Spetulhu wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Rich Kilton beat a 3 Riptide army with his Orks at the LVO. I'll ask him what his full army was, but I know it was mainly boyz without any Gargants.


A wild guess would be he beat them by ignoring the Riptides and killing everything else.


I've seen him beat a three Wraithknight army by chasing down and killing all the Knights, but I can ask him the particulars on his game and get back to you.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 06:08:30


Post by: Crimson Devil


 gmaleron wrote:

Constantly complaining about something that has already been covered in multiple threads isn't constructive either, just saying.



And yet it happens. A lot.


Maybe you're forgetting your own participation in the many "ITC Hates Tau" threads of late. We all do it. Don't be judgmental about it. I've wasted a lot of time and energy ranting about Blood Angels. I realize it isn't productive, but it doesn't mean I won't again in the future.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 07:31:34


Post by: Jancoran


 Quickjager wrote:
Janc say L2P one more fething time.


Your words, buddy. Not mine.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 07:51:59


Post by: Quickjager


Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 07:54:38


Post by: Talys


In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...

In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.

Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.

And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.

Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 08:01:17


Post by: Red__Thirst


I see the typical L2P trolls are out in force in this thread.

Riptides are killable, but it takes the tau player throwing them away wantonly or being inept/new to the game or otherwise just not caring.

I've killed Riptides before, but not before they did a tremendous amount of damage to my army.

Leadership manipulation is a tricky way to do it, but outside of one very specific (space marine only) formation, and two very specific powers on two different psychic trees, which one may or may not successfully roll up, few armies can really hope to have anything like this.

Lastly, Assault isn't a leadership attack. It's farking assault, and hopefully one can win that assault and sweeping advance an opponent if they lose and then fail their resulting morale check. Make no mistake however, GETTING to assault can be difficult in the extreme for some armies.

Just offering my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-



Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 09:16:54


Post by: Nocturus


I would initially like to apologize on behalf of all Tau players that GW made rules for a Walker as a MC. If you'd like to write up some rules fixing every model that has been done that way, play test them, and balance them out go for it submit them to GW, and hope for the best. Let me give some suggestions:

Riptide (all variants) -> Walker
Storm Surge -> super heavy walker (open topped)
Wraithknight (all variants -> super heavy walker
Eldar Dreadnau.. I mean wraith lord (all variants) -> walker
Dreadknight -> walker (open topped)
Cronos/Talos -> debatable

Those are the outliers I can see, I may be missing some. Beyond house ruling those models, we're stuck with what we have, or you can just ban everything you don't like, pack your ball and go home. I got into Tau because I loved the aesthetics, and the initial background was completely different from everything else in 40k. It was back when the only suits we had were Crisis, stealth, and Broadsides, and all of those were extremely limited in how many you could field.

I was honestly upset when I saw the stormsurge become a GC. I WANTED a super heavy walker. I built an IK army because I WANTED super heavy walkers. When I played in 2nd edition all I wanted was dreadnaughts backed by terminators. What’s cooler than a guy wired into a walking GUN TOMB followed by smaller versions of the same thing!
I just want to play my little game of toy soldiers with what I have available and default to the more CONSERVATIVE ruling when something is in a grey area. If it doesn’t appear grey I don’t argue it. I take it at face value and play the game written for me. I didn’t like seeing D weapons enter the game, then I got over it as I saw the power escalation from everywhere else. I didn’t like invisibility because of how “OMG SUPER UBER POWERFUL” it was, until I shot one off the board because he failed his check on turn 3. I didn’t like fliers, but the models are cool and hey, it adds a different element to the game (I still struggle against cron air). I still don’t like summoning, but I’ve only played against it twice, and both times I did the best I could and walked away with no personal damage done to my psyche.

My honest suggestion, don’t blame players who like their army because the rules aren’t to your taste. I can find at least one thing in each army I don’t like or think needs to be nerfed (SoB and CSM are an exception to that), but in the end it’s still a game, and if my opponent wants to put 5 wraithknights on the board, so be it. I like playing against super “competitive/broken” armies just for the challenge and to see how I can do. I’ve lost many, won a few, and always shook the guy across the boards hand every time, before, and after the game. If every time you play against a certain army you don’t enjoy it, try seeing if it’s the army you don’t like, or if maybe you or your opponent just need an attitude adjustment.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 09:35:27


Post by: Gamgee


 Talys wrote:
In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...

In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.

Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.

And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.

Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.


What if he fields Riptides and is the superior player?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 11:58:22


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


 Gamgee wrote:
 Talys wrote:
In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...

In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.

Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.

And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.

Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.


What if he fields Riptides and is the superior player?


You can't be suggesting that your opponent may be as good as you are, can you?

Dear God......

What kind of hellish meta do you live in, Martels???


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 12:08:14


Post by: BoomWolf


 Red__Thirst wrote:
I see the typical L2P trolls are out in force in this thread.

Riptides are killable, but it takes the tau player throwing them away wantonly or being inept/new to the game or otherwise just not caring.

I've killed Riptides before, but not before they did a tremendous amount of damage to my army.

Leadership manipulation is a tricky way to do it, but outside of one very specific (space marine only) formation, and two very specific powers on two different psychic trees, which one may or may not successfully roll up, few armies can really hope to have anything like this.

Lastly, Assault isn't a leadership attack. It's farking assault, and hopefully one can win that assault and sweeping advance an opponent if they lose and then fail their resulting morale check. Make no mistake however, GETTING to assault can be difficult in the extreme for some armies.

Just offering my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-



Leadership manipulation and targeting is tricky?
REALLY?

Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.
Nids got 3 different LD powers in their psykers. chances of getting something on any given caster is high, and they got many casters. (haven't seen a nid list with less than 10 or so mastery levels scattered around for a long time.)
BA (altough being generally made of fail) has FotD, that has a fair chance to chase away the riptide.
DA mind worm-might be tough to get in range and could fail the wound, but a single wound by it practically removes the tide from the game.
DE has multiple LD debuff bubbles. stacking up to potential -6 IIRC. and LD attacking guns.
Death jesters. along with quinns in general messing with LD.
Eldar too has some LD special attacks on planes, unique powers, etc.
Pinning weapons-anyone doesn't have those? its not a viable go-to strategy by any strech, but its something to keep in mind. and when stacked with LD reducing abilities, its getting far easier to pull off.
IIRC-assassins and necrons also got LD targeting flamer type guns with AP2? will only do one wound, but its not like the riptide is the only target for it.
Anything with fear (every daemon, every MC, many others) reduces the riptide to even more helpless in CC than he already is.


Beyond LD attacks, some random tools that work:
-Maledictions in general are widely available, and riptides are as defenseless as any tau against these. most psyker trees containing LD attacks also contain maledictions, so odds are you WILL get something if you roll on these. considering many maledictions cause you to snap fire, it means the IA blast is shut down, and the standard shots are of greatly reduced potency.
-Superfast assault units exist in masses. you don't even need to be strong-just very fast. Not like the riptide can fight worth a damn. (3 S6Ap2 attacks at WS2 I2. hardly amazing for a model at 180 points bare bones.)
-Some armies got initiative based psyker powers/weapons too. don't quite remember who has these, but I remember they exist and took out my tide before. (blind doesn't work though. BSF blocks it)
-Anything with instant death attacks. anything with D profile.
-Snipers in general, give no feth about the T6, and every third wound ignores armor. not all snipers are born equal (ironically, tau have some of the best), but a good sniper unit will put good hurt on tides.
-Grav, the obvious answer to 2+ save units. not overly accessible though.


All this, off the top of my head without even looking. I'm willing to bet there are many more.
If just that MOST players are stuck in the traditional "hit/wound/save" as the only means of attacking something.
You look at the shopping list above, and tell me that your army don't have any of it. even the most bottom tier armies got some of that, and being bottom tier to begin with means they are not relevant to begin with.
Granted, some are not as good as others. and some armies, despite having alot have little that is good (DE for example)-but most often, that's the army iteself being flawed, not a spesific riptide issue. these armies struggle with EVERYONE.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 13:34:50


Post by: Akiasura


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
I see the typical L2P trolls are out in force in this thread.

Riptides are killable, but it takes the tau player throwing them away wantonly or being inept/new to the game or otherwise just not caring.

I've killed Riptides before, but not before they did a tremendous amount of damage to my army.

Leadership manipulation is a tricky way to do it, but outside of one very specific (space marine only) formation, and two very specific powers on two different psychic trees, which one may or may not successfully roll up, few armies can really hope to have anything like this.

Lastly, Assault isn't a leadership attack. It's farking assault, and hopefully one can win that assault and sweeping advance an opponent if they lose and then fail their resulting morale check. Make no mistake however, GETTING to assault can be difficult in the extreme for some armies.

Just offering my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-



Leadership manipulation and targeting is tricky?
REALLY?

Really really . Keep in mind that if it doesn't stop the Riptide somehow from firing, it's pointless for this discussion.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.

Sure, and only with their psykers. Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army . Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah.
Rare.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Nids got 3 different LD powers in their psykers. chances of getting something on any given caster is high, and they got many casters. (haven't seen a nid list with less than 10 or so mastery levels scattered around for a long time.)

True, but really there are only 2 powers worth talking about since one has a very short range. But Nids do have access to pinning powers, and it's pretty easy to roll one. Nids don't have trouble with riptides and tend to struggle with the rest of the tau army more (since their defensive move of flying isn't as good here). Nids aren't one of the armies complaining about Riptides (ever, really). Honestly, as a nid player, Riptides aren't a real threat to me. It's my marine armies that hate them.

 BoomWolf wrote:

BA (altough being generally made of fail) has FotD, that has a fair chance to chase away the riptide.

...with a 12" range. It still isn't going to effect the Riptide till turn 3, most likely 4. And it's only on 1 or 2 units.

 BoomWolf wrote:

DA mind worm-might be tough to get in range and could fail the wound, but a single wound by it practically removes the tide from the game.

Witch fire, so you also need roll to hit. It's very unreliable and will likely be on 1 model in the entire army.

 BoomWolf wrote:

DE has multiple LD debuff bubbles. stacking up to potential -6 IIRC. and LD attacking guns.

Pretty much crap against a lot of armies and never really taken, also requires extremely short range for most of the -LD effects.
Still rare as it's special equipment. You're very unlikely to have the entire set.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Death jesters. along with quinns in general messing with LD.
Eldar too has some LD special attacks on planes, unique powers, etc.

List specific and rarely taken (for eldar). So yeah, rare.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Pinning weapons-anyone doesn't have those? its not a viable go-to strategy by any strech, but its something to keep in mind. and when stacked with LD reducing abilities, its getting far easier to pull off.

Again, list specific and rare.

 BoomWolf wrote:

IIRC-assassins and necrons also got LD targeting flamer type guns with AP2? will only do one wound, but its not like the riptide is the only target for it.
Anything with fear (every daemon, every MC, many others) reduces the riptide to even more helpless in CC than he already is.

Requires extremely close range so effectively a non-starter.

To sum up your advice;
Most of what you're suggesting is Witchfires (which are the worst powers, requiring a to-hit roll) and are extremely short range on a target that needs to fall back.
A lot of your other suggestions require list tailoring by taking units that are only effective against armies weak to LD attacks. Which is pretty much Tau only out of the competitive armies. And are still extremely short range.

Nothing you're suggesting is likely to remove the Riptide before turn 4. Which is the entire problem. Many of what you're suggesting is only going to work against 1 Riptide, being extremely short ranged or only taken by 1-3 units per army at most, and Tau armies often take a few riptides.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Beyond LD attacks, some random tools that work:
-Maledictions in general are widely available, and riptides are as defenseless as any tau against these. most psyker trees containing LD attacks also contain maledictions, so odds are you WILL get something if you roll on these. considering many maledictions cause you to snap fire, it means the IA blast is shut down, and the standard shots are of greatly reduced potency.

True, some maledictions are quite good. They also tend to be short ranged and require a psyker, which is a rare unit in most armies.
Like the above options, maledictions are generally not very good because of those reasons. Blessings are the best powers for a reason.

 BoomWolf wrote:

-Superfast assault units exist in masses. you don't even need to be strong-just very fast. Not like the riptide can fight worth a damn. (3 S6Ap2 attacks at WS2 I2. hardly amazing for a model at 180 points bare bones.)

This is a good counter and was mentioned several time. Off hand, maybe 3-4 armies total have superfast assault units, off hand I can only think of 2.

 BoomWolf wrote:

-Some armies got initiative based psyker powers/weapons too. don't quite remember who has these, but I remember they exist and took out my tide before. (blind doesn't work though. BSF blocks it)
-Anything with instant death attacks. anything with D profile.
-Snipers in general, give no feth about the T6, and every third wound ignores armor. not all snipers are born equal (ironically, tau have some of the best), but a good sniper unit will put good hurt on tides.

Snipers need to hit, roll a rend, then go through the 5++ and the 5+ FnP. It could take 2 units of 10 snipers firing just to force a LD test, which it may not even fail. (2/3*1/6*2/3*2/3 is 8/162 per shot).
Not exactly a good answer.

 BoomWolf wrote:

-Grav, the obvious answer to 2+ save units. not overly accessible though.

Yup, grav is okay against them.

 BoomWolf wrote:

All this, off the top of my head without even looking. I'm willing to bet there are many more.
If just that MOST players are stuck in the traditional "hit/wound/save" as the only means of attacking something.
You look at the shopping list above, and tell me that your army don't have any of it. even the most bottom tier armies got some of that, and being bottom tier to begin with means they are not relevant to begin with.
Granted, some are not as good as others. and some armies, despite having alot have little that is good (DE for example)-but most often, that's the army iteself being flawed, not a spesific riptide issue. these armies struggle with EVERYONE.


Actually, most of your answers were incredibly rare (requiring psykers, which most answers don't field more than 2-3 of at max, or special equipment that only leaders get). Most of your responses were short ranged as well, so don't work well against a riptide, let alone 3 that you commonly see taken.
You didn't exactly get around the to hit/ wound/ save thing either. Witchfires still require a to hit roll after roll, they just bypass wounds.

So...yes. All of the options you listed are rare, and the vast majority are either awful (short ranged psykers) or require list tailoring (which doesn't help in most settings).
And nearly all of them outside of what everyone is saying works (super fast melee, grav on DS platform). The one thing you mentioned is Nids, and Nids don't fear riptides overly much. They fear everything else in the tau army.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 13:38:50


Post by: Kanluwen


notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.


Guess what? "Experimental rules" are now 100% legal to play in normal 40k

They have not updated/reposted a specific line that was in the old Downloads section for FW.

That line was something to the effect of "Good sportsmanship dictates that you should ask your opponent if you can utilize a product with Experimental Rules rather than just plopping it down on the table".


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 13:41:21


Post by: Martel732


"being bottom tier to begin with means they are not relevant to begin with."

GW, is that you?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 13:50:57


Post by: X078


Perhaps Forgeworld "Experimental status" was meant to mean "pending verification" or something along those lines 10+ Years ago, who knows. However they have in more recent times said that the "Experimental" stamp was basically meant to say that the unit was pending print in one of the "big" books.
However even that is no more and both the "Experimental" and "40k approved" stamp has gone the way of the dodo.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/oh-my-looks-like-forgeworld-is-finally-40k-legal.html

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/12/105915.html





Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 14:33:34


Post by: Talys


 Gamgee wrote:
 Talys wrote:
In my humble opinion, for what it's worth...
Spoiler:

In 7.5, Riptides aren't so bad, compared to other really good 7.5 stuff. And 7.5 is oozing with really good stuff.

Compared to 7.0 and older books, they're awesomely powerful (but they were before 7.5 too). They weren't particularly more powerful than the most egregious offenders like wave serpents or invisibility, and point-for-point they sure aren't better than 7e Wraithknights. But that's kinda like saying I like the Corvette, but the Ferrari is nicer.

And if you're playing Blood Angels (Martel <3 ), it's like you're trying to compete in a Geo. But then again, if I'm playing BA or DE (or any of the "worst" factions), *any* game can feel like that on a strictly point-to-point basis.

Generally speaking in the current game, which has a mix of 7.5, 7.0, and 6.0 armies, most armies can tailor a solution to Riptides OR have some type of MSU that will be victorious, but the issue is that the Riptides are stupid easy to command, whereas defeating them often requires clever play; and even then, sometimes, it only works if you trick your enemy because they're unprepared or unfamiliar with what you're fielding. And that's mostly the problem with a lot of popular armies from 6e Wave Serpents to Necron Decurion to 7e scatterbikes and 7e Tau -- it's not that they can't be beat, it's just that you have to be a far superior player and outplay them; whereas any idiot can play models that stay out of range, are hard to kill, T1 alpha, etc.


What if he fields Riptides and is the superior player?


In my opinion, a Tau player (I'm assuming he does have models other than riptides....) has an advantage over pre-7.5 armies, and is on equal footing versus post-7.5 armies that take advantage of the post-7.5 Special Sauce.

Against the vast majority pre-7.5 armies, he will have an advantage, but not necessarily enough to win, if he's the inferior player. A competitive modern Tau army composed of a significant number of Riptides against pre-7.5 armies that are designed for friendly play only, assuming that both players are skilled -- the Tau player will probably have a huge advantage.

In my observation, most experienced, veteran players are not really interested in a massively mismatched game, such as 7.5 Tau with Riptides vs. 6.0 CSM and therefore, you don't see that very often. Usually, when that happens, the 7.5 Tau player is either a newer player or a player who has just gotten together their Tau 7.5 army and is eager to try it out.

What I was driving at is that the annoyance for a lot of people is that some factions are just much more forgiving than others; for instance, if you deploy badly or make some wrong decisions in an early turn, you don't essentially forfeit the game. With other factions, even the tiniest mistake can wipe you out -- though afterwards, you might look back and think that if you just had not moved there, you could have had a chance to be competitive. Personally, that's not as big a deal to me, because we're willing to make our own adjustments, plus it's conceptually okay for some factions to be harder to play than others. But of course, I'd like the pre-7.5 armies to get some buffs to be more competitive.

Does that make sense?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 15:20:12


Post by: Yoyoyo


Akiasura wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:

Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.

Sure, and only with their psykers. Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army . Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah.
Rare.

It's not as hard as you're saying.

SM - Librarius Conclave is the best psyker formation in the game
DA - Librarius Conclave (with unique LD-based discipline)
SW - Wyrdstorm formation
BA - You're hosed sorry. At least they get a cool LD attack on their faction psychic table
GK - It's a psychic army. Sanctic allows DS in the psychic phase (subverts interceptor)
IG - Psykana formation
CSM/Daemons - ML3 Sorcs are great, Daemons got some new toys as well (including a flat -1LD modifier to the enemy army)
Eldar/Harlequins/DE -- see JimSolo's freakshow Tactics thread

The problems: LD attacks can get complicated and Psykers aren't hard to remove. Riptides are durable and gunlining from the board edge is really obvious strategy that puts the burden on the opponent. So it reminds me a bit of the grief in Starcraft when discussing a Protoss cannon rush, it's quite simple to execute but less intuitive to counter. The difference is its easier to learn counters in Starcraft (higher volume of games) and Blizzard has access to metrics and patches to adjust game balance.

A 2+ cover save and 100% dead markerlights will defang Riptides, Grav/Plasma/Melta do not. Boomwolf's point about being stuck in a shooting army mindset is valid. It's sometimes more useful to have a toolbox than special weapons spam.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 15:34:28


Post by: Martel732


"BA - You're hosed sorry. At least they get a cool LD attack on their faction psychic table "

At least someone is honest.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 15:52:56


Post by: Akiasura


Yoyoyo wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:

Lets see, you got the commonly available telepathy powers, with an Ld attack in its primias power. so that means marines, BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG off the top of my head can simply take it with their psykers.

Sure, and only with their psykers. Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army . Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah.
Rare.

It's not as hard as you're saying.

SM - Librarius Conclave is the best psyker formation in the game

And yet still doesn't get taken that often in competitive lists. Granted, this might be due to the rules dispute in regards to how many psykers can actually cast in this formation, but it's not exactly common.
It's rare to see 3-5 psykers in a SM army. It's much more common to see 1-2, or just 1-2 special characters (Draigo, Tiggy) with cents and a regular HQ on a bike.
But it's certainly an option, so fair point.

Yoyoyo wrote:

DA - Librarius Conclave (with unique LD-based discipline)

Maybe DA take more psykers and I'm unaware of it, but I don't see this being better than the current Ravenwing armies. Still, fair point.
The issue with the above is the LD attack powers that are standard (not including mindworm) is that they are pretty bad. Shriek is a witch fire power with a terrible range after all.

Yoyoyo wrote:

SW - Wyrdstorm formation

Doesn't get access to LD attack powers really and wasn't originally mentioned. Not sure why you bring it up...wolves are going to use TWC to try to close ASAP with Tau anyway.

Yoyoyo wrote:

BA - You're hosed sorry. At least they get a cool LD attack on their faction psychic table

Agree.

Yoyoyo wrote:

GK - It's a psychic army. Sanctic allows DS in the psychic phase (subverts interceptor)

Probably why I didn't include GK and mentioned them along with Daemons as being able to spam psykers.

Yoyoyo wrote:

IG - Psykana formation

Dont get access to Telepathy I believe so not relevant to the discussion.

Yoyoyo wrote:

CSM/Daemons - ML3 Sorcs are great, Daemons got some new toys as well (including a flat -1LD modifier to the enemy army)

I did state for Daemons this is a fine strategy.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Eldar/Harlequins/DE -- see JimSolo's freakshow Tactics thread

I didn't comment on Harlies since I don't play them, but for DE my points all stand. The LD options are extremely short ranged, and you need to remove the Riptide before T4, and do it to multiple ones if possible.

To sum up;
You probably want to read what we are discussing.
Specifically, it's LD attack powers and/or psykers that can spam them in regards to silencing the riptide. So, right away, we can toss out SW and IG. I'm not sure why you mentioned them at all.
GK and Daemons were already mentioned as being a psychic spam army. Not sure why you mentioned those either.

Yoyoyo wrote:

The problems: LD attacks can get complicated and Psykers aren't hard to remove. Riptides are durable and gunlining from the board edge is really obvious strategy that puts the burden on the opponent. So it reminds me a bit of the grief in Starcraft when discussing a Protoss cannon rush, it's quite simple to execute but less intuitive to counter. The difference is its easier to learn counters in Starcraft (higher volume of games) and Blizzard has access to metrics and patches to adjust game balance.

A 2+ cover save and 100% dead markerlights will defang Riptides, Grav/Plasma/Melta do not. Boomwolf's point about being stuck in a shooting army mindset is valid. It's sometimes more useful to have a toolbox than special weapons spam.

His points are only valid for a small subset of armies however and doesn't address the original point at all.
For the vast majority of armies, LD attacks are a rare thing and against many opponents they aren't very good. Heck, even against riptides, many of them are so short ranged you're better off charging and just going for the force weapon kill.
Or it requires list tailoring, which can't be done in a tournament.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:00:58


Post by: Martel732


I guess for BA there's always bringing more storm shields.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:20:14


Post by: pumaman1


Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:26:35


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:47:03


Post by: pumaman1


Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:47:54


Post by: GoliothOnline


 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.


I hear Cultists are pretty fast to catch a Riptide lol

But seriously... It ain't happening. If your opponent is braindead maybe... But highly doubtful

Best bet against a Riptide is to punch your opponent in the face. Because we play CSM. We're the bad guys


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:50:41


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)


BA preds can't get monster hunter. It's not like I regularly use pod lists because not all lists are Tau. And preds are bad. That's why not.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:53:15


Post by: GoliothOnline


 pumaman1 wrote:
Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)


Tri Las Preds, while cheap aren't exactly reliable... And they fill an already over inflated Heavy Support slot. Until CSM get 1-3 Models per unit much like C:SM they simply cannot be taken in bulk like that =/ Not that we have much else for the HS slot but there are other options out there that can benefit you more. Fire Raptor Gunships for example. They will almost always make their points back VS pretty much any army that isn't specifically built to Interceptor them on arrival and generally speaking cause more havoc than 3 Tri Las Preds could.

Factor in Cover and FNP from the Tide and you basically cause 2.6ish wounds a turn to a 4+ Cover 5+ FNP Riptide


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:54:54


Post by: Xenomancers


Martel732 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

I can count the number of times I've killed a riptide on 1 hand with marines. I bring a lot of grav cannons too. They are basically immortal at around 220 points. Why can't a land raider be like...half as hard to kill as these things?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:57:32


Post by: Vaktathi


Even with monster hunter, three trilas preds are only going to burn down a naked riptide fast, if its got FNP and its nova generator going, they're going to neeed probably 4 turns to kill the thing.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 16:58:35


Post by: pumaman1


Its still 2+ wounds ignores armor, and either 1 tl and 2 bs 4 shots of damage 3x. the 6 bs 4 shots will land 4 hits, will be 3+ wounds, and the TL will land 3+ shots and probably 3+ wounds. with a little luck that's a dead riptide, with a little bad luck it lives, but not much longer. it's only got 3 s7 shots back, so glancing front armor. nova-charging for ordinance again might overheat, cause the last wound you need no saves, and then risks a scatter, and has a 1/16 chance of killing your tanks per hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
right, but if its nova'ing its shields, it isnt doing very much damage back, so its a fire magnet, reprioritize targets. FNP is a 5+ and 35 point upgrade, so it might help. but again, you dont like that you cannot reliably take it down in 1 round with 1 unit shooting. that's not that big of a complaint. to take out your trip las preds, i'd have to devote over 500 pts to try and take them out for sure in 1 turn.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:00:53


Post by: Yoyoyo


Akiasura wrote:
To sum up;
You probably want to read what we are discussing.

Maybe you figure the more you write, the more likely I'd lose your original point.

"Some of these armies can spam psykers, but for the most part, you're looking at 1-3 units per army... Compare to how many plasma, melta, and grav weapons these armies can take and yeah. Rare."

The armies Boomwolff mentioned were "BA, DA, GK, SW, CSM, daemons, eldar and IG". So I stuck with the topic.

Psykers are not rare and access isn't difficult. That's my point, it was your counterpoint, and you were wrong. Finito. I don't care whether each individual choice is competitive or common or effective. You can discuss that with other people, instead of assuming arguments I'm not making -- you know, learn to read?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:03:12


Post by: Akiasura


 pumaman1 wrote:
Why not take 3 trip las preds. at 360 points, you get monster hunter, so re-roll those wounds. and can do 3 reliable wounds on main cannons, and another 3 on average with the side sponsons, probably more, and you have a 1 turn drop, that the riptide has to use a template to try and hurt you "reliably" back, which if the rest of your army did their job, no markerlights, isn't that reliable. and can self wound, possibly stop the shot.
and you can be fast, move 6" and fire all at full bs (for mroe points yes)


Isn't it 3TL lascannon shots on the main cannons for 3 tanks?
I don't see how you are getting 3 reliable wounds. 3+ to hit with re-rolls and 2+ to wound with re-rolls is still not 3. Not to mention the invul/cover + FnP. Even assuming 3 wounds reach that stage (it's probably just under) most likely something like 1.6-8 is getting through.
The 6 side shots are probably in a similar boat. Assuming BS 4 monster hunter, it's probably like 2/3*essentially 1 *2/3*2/3 = 8/27, so 2 wounds caused. That's assuming all 3 have LoS to the creature, which may or may not happen.

So it would take 3 TriLas Preds roughly 2 turns to kill a single riptide, assuming they all get cover. It might take 3 if the dice go sour. That's not bad, but it's not great either. TriLas Preds aren't hard for tau to remove with a lot of their formations. Not to mention that tri-las preds are very matchup dependent...against a lot of armies (eldar, necrons, or SM) they aren't very good at all.

If the riptide manages to get a 4+ cover save, I think the dice math shifts to 3 turns.
It's not a bad solution, but it suffers from "needs to list tailor" syndrome, because tri-las preds aren't good against most armies.

Edit,
I hear what you're saying in that a goalpost isn't clearly being set. I think that's important in a discussion like this, otherwise you get people talking past each other constantly, or proving points nobody was in disagreement about in the first place.

The goal post I would like to set is the following;
I would like to remove 2-3 riptides by T2 while spending 50% more points max and not making a list that is going to fall apart against everything else.
This may not be a fair goalpost so I'm open to moving it.

@ Yoyoyo,
It seems you did lose the original point.
We were talking about LD attack powers and how they can be used against the Riptide and why this is/isn't a good option. I'm pretty sure me discussing the LD powers, along with everyone else, made that pretty clear.
IG and SW don't have those powers. Everyone, including me (the guy you quoted and responded to) mentioned that this is certainly viable for Daemons and GK, since they can spam psykers pretty easily.
We clearly weren't only talking about psykers at this point, since DE and their equipment, along with necrons, were mentioned.

If your only point was to take one post out of context and attempt a response, alright.
That doesn't change the fact that psykers are relatively rare for most armies when compared to special weapons, which is the part you quoted. Unless you are saying that psykers outnumber special weapons for most armies.
If you want to talk about psykers in lists, feel free to make a new thread. We are clearly talking about everything in regards to the Riptide here.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:05:55


Post by: Yoyoyo


Trying to shoot more is attacking strength rather than attacking weakness.

Kill markerlights, get good cover saves, eliminate Obsec, win on VPs.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:17:14


Post by: Vaktathi


 pumaman1 wrote:
Its still 2+ wounds ignores armor, and either 1 tl and 2 bs 4 shots of damage 3x. the 6 bs 4 shots will land 4 hits, will be 3+ wounds, and the TL will land 3+ shots and probably 3+ wounds. with a little luck that's a dead riptide, with a little bad luck it lives, but not much longer. it's only got 3 s7 shots back, so glancing front armor. nova-charging for ordinance again might overheat, cause the last wound you need no saves, and then risks a scatter, and has a 1/16 chance of killing your tanks per hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
right, but if its nova'ing its shields, it isnt doing very much damage back, so its a fire magnet, reprioritize targets. FNP is a 5+ and 35 point upgrade, so it might help. but again, you dont like that you cannot reliably take it down in 1 round with 1 unit shooting. that's not that big of a complaint. to take out your trip las preds, i'd have to devote over 500 pts to try and take them out for sure in 1 turn.
Here is where things break down in that vacuum however, the Riptide is generally not hunting armor, but infantr, light vehicles, and MC's. The Tau player isnt going to be using the Riptide to engage the Predators, theyll have different assets for that role, like DSIng Crisis melta suits or Hammerheads or 2+cover sporting Ghostkeels that hit on rear armor, while the Riptide vapes all the non-vehicle units.

And Emperor help you if you have more than 1 Riptide to deal with


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:36:26


Post by: pumaman1


how are tri-las bad against any army with vehicles? so most all of them. or elite units?

that said 3 TL bs4 shots 2/3 hit, and 2/3 of the miss reroll to hit, 8/9 chance all 3 hit. those 3 hits wound on a 2+, with monster hunter (which you said they don't get so fair) is a 1/36 chance to not wound. so 8/9*35/36 ~86% (74% w/o monster hunter) chance of 3 wounds off main cannon. with normal invul, 2 wounds.
the other 6 shots get 4 hits, so again basically 4 wounds with re-roll. 2 more wounds, 4 wounds on a 5 wound model. and your las pred can pretty easily get a 25% obscure behind an ageis or wall, and camo net, standing 4+ cover save. again your army takes out the ml with your other 1200 pts. if they rock the 3+ invul its 2 wounds. but it's forgoing the true damage potential, and you can ignore them.

Ultimately, mine die, in cover. others riptides die, in cover. we over extended trying to push victory, it fails, and they die. sometimes they die doing less than 50 pts in damage, because terrain blocks LOS and bad dice that day.

Any super elite unit can be defeated by small fast units. BA are uniquely (for IoM) able to take abundant small fast units, and crush in maelstrom missions. and you can spread out so much that the riptides are just wasting fire everywhere, while the rest of your army wipes up the rest of the tau army.

All that said, you have my sympathy. i will list tailor my builds down for BA, bringing the tau flyers and open topped armor 11-10-10 2hp skimmers. (whose explode results have pen'd and exploded the others on disturbingly frequent occasion)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Its still 2+ wounds ignores armor, and either 1 tl and 2 bs 4 shots of damage 3x. the 6 bs 4 shots will land 4 hits, will be 3+ wounds, and the TL will land 3+ shots and probably 3+ wounds. with a little luck that's a dead riptide, with a little bad luck it lives, but not much longer. it's only got 3 s7 shots back, so glancing front armor. nova-charging for ordinance again might overheat, cause the last wound you need no saves, and then risks a scatter, and has a 1/16 chance of killing your tanks per hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
right, but if its nova'ing its shields, it isnt doing very much damage back, so its a fire magnet, reprioritize targets. FNP is a 5+ and 35 point upgrade, so it might help. but again, you dont like that you cannot reliably take it down in 1 round with 1 unit shooting. that's not that big of a complaint. to take out your trip las preds, i'd have to devote over 500 pts to try and take them out for sure in 1 turn.
Here is where things break down in that vacuum however, the Riptide is generally not hunting armor, but infantr, light vehicles, and MC's. The Tau player isnt going to be using the Riptide to engage the Predators, theyll have different assets for that role, like DSIng Crisis melta suits or Hammerheads or 2+cover sporting Ghostkeels that hit on rear armor, while the Riptide vapes all the non-vehicle units.

And Emperor help you if you have more than 1 Riptide to deal with


ghost keels don't by default hit rear armor.. that's the OSC, where you need stealth suits within a few inches. if they aren't bringing stealth suits, they are cheating.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:45:28


Post by: Akiasura


Most the better armies don't take any vehicles. If they do, it's usually transport spam, which tri-las preds don't do well against.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:51:57


Post by: Jancoran


 Quickjager wrote:
Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.


Until you can win with them at all, I don't think you have much to say to me. Just saying.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:52:14


Post by: Vaktathi


Right, the Ghostkeels only get that in the formation, but the point really was that the Tau player isnt going to be using the Riptide to neutralize the Predators, so a straight up comparison in what kills what fastest doesnt work. They fulfill different roles.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 17:55:56


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.


Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood Angels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:03:08


Post by: Akiasura


I have to agree with Jancoran. I browse a lot of boards, and this board is more BA centric than nearly every other one I've been to because of this.

I understand where you are coming from, CSM will always be my main army and nids my second. But I can't frame every conversation around CSM and Nids as that isn't fair to the discussion and other posters.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:04:18


Post by: pumaman1


Lets refrain from personal attacks. please.

THe good part, BA can become any SM faction with a different codex. they are just a successor chapter of ___ with red armor


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:04:50


Post by: Yoyoyo


I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:14:10


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.


Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood anfels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.


I'd never give gw that much money at this point. I'm super hesitant to get a single knight.

I guess you are having problems coming up with clever solutions for ba?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:15:19


Post by: pumaman1


Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:23:01


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
Lets refrain from personal attacks. please.

THe good part, BA can become any SM faction with a different codex. they are just a successor chapter of ___ with red armor


The interesting thing is that I don't have the models for that. BA are just divergent enough. I guess I might be able to field gladius.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:28:25


Post by: judgedoug


 Jancoran wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.


Until you can win with them at all, I don't think you have much to say to me. Just saying.


"I PLAY TOY SOLDIER BETTER THAN YOU"

"NO, I PLAY TOY SOLDIER BETTER"



Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:31:05


Post by: Akiasura


 pumaman1 wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)


They'll catch the Riptide eventually if there are 9 or 10, but not until the game is practically over and the Riptide has done its work.
Not to mention the crisis suits remove them quite well.

For CSM I imagine the solution is Belakor, Bikes assaulting, Spawn absorbing hits and charging forward (although fire warriors do well against them), or Daemon allies.
So...typical solutions.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:34:29


Post by: pumaman1


Belakor solves all the problems, unless the other team just has that many more psykers


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:35:09


Post by: Akiasura


Very true. He's a bit worse in ITC formats but he's still really solid.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:35:59


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Jancoran wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
Come back when you place top 8 with your mutilators and we'll talk on who is a good general.


Until you can win with them at all, I don't think you have much to say to me. Just saying.

Based off the battle reports you've given, I'd be able to take Warp Talons too and do fine. Your locals is CAAC; just accept that.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:36:41


Post by: master of ordinance


 pumaman1 wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Ogryns.
Because at least the Mutilators have decent armour.

On a serious note though, there are a lot of armies which struggle with Riptides and most of them are the older ones: Orks, Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Chaos and Sisters. These armies lack the sheer amount of cheap amassed fire or cheesy power units/wargear with which to take the Riptide down. Whilst SM's have Grave, Necrons have fancy weapon X, Space Wolves have Hellfrost, Wulfen and Thunderwolf cavalry and Eldar have Eldar, these older armies have very little that can counter a Riptide. That is where the complaints really start coming in, from players whom have to pay through the nose for a single Riptide escue thing and even then it is still no where near as good (Case example: Imperial Guard and the Malcador chassis tanks). To us of the weaker codexes the Riptide is criminally good and very much overpowered for what it costs.

Just putting things into perspective here.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:38:02


Post by: Martel732


 master of ordinance wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Ogryns.
Because at least the Mutilators have decent armour.

On a serious note though, there are a lot of armies which struggle with Riptides and most of them are the older ones: Orks, Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Chaos and Sisters. These armies lack the sheer amount of cheap amassed fire or cheesy power units/wargear with which to take the Riptide down. Whilst SM's have Grave, Necrons have fancy weapon X, Space Wolves have Hellfrost, Wulfen and Thunderwolf cavalry and Eldar have Eldar, these older armies have very little that can counter a Riptide. That is where the complaints really start coming in, from players whom have to pay through the nose for a single Riptide escue thing and even then it is still no where near as good (Case example: Imperial Guard and the Malcador chassis tanks). To us of the weaker codexes the Riptide is criminally good and very much overpowered for what it costs.

Just putting things into perspective here.


Even grav becomes insufficient if the riptide has cover.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:42:31


Post by: Vaktathi


Indeed, and a riptide in full defense mode (3++, FNP) will likely survive even a round of hate from a full Gravcent squad dumping 30 "wounds on 2's with rerolls" AP2 shots into it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 18:47:33


Post by: pumaman1


MY 2nd army, and currently most played enemy is IG, between hell hounds/wyverns destroying everything i love turn 1 (markerlights) and the wall of front armor 14, i've yet to win.
given i play down my army, because its more fun to bring piranhas and flyers, even if they rarely pan out.

sisters have those pipe organ tanks putting out d6 real good shots, more of those will destroy riptides.

orks and CSM, and apparently BA, they need re-work, or a tyranid-esque model release.

Ig (for a price) can bring either enough bodies, las cannons in corners in cover, or vendettas to still be ok. or paskisher. I'd like for them to get a good 7.5 update. but if mont'ka shows much, its that they are not getting a significant (any) upgrade.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:05:02


Post by: Martel732


 Vaktathi wrote:
Indeed, and a riptide in full defense mode (3++, FNP) will likely survive even a round of hate from a full Gravcent squad dumping 30 "wounds on 2's with rerolls" AP2 shots into it.


It doesn't even need that. It just needs a ruins.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:05:26


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.


Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood anfels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.


I'd never give gw that much money at this point. I'm super hesitant to get a single knight.

I guess you are having problems coming up with clever solutions for ba?


No. I already gave you one for Riptides. Hopefully you read it. I am continuing to work on the Blood Angel thing but it takes some time to absorb the codex and I run a business, and I dont play Marines as often, not even close. So i am having to think through it a bit as far as an all comers list.

But you need to calm down about it and start allying in the things you lack if its truly an issue. I understand being frustrated. i dont understand the unremitting mention of dissatisfaction. You just need to chill and I will give you my version of help on the matter. whether you choose to take it will be another story but I am still offering it. I will PM you when I am done pondering it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:07:08


Post by: Yoyoyo


 pumaman1 wrote:
the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Mutilators are hilarious, VP pressure can force targets into range. We saw one punch out a Stormraven in the Mutilator thread. Lol.

They don't need to be fast as they can saturate an area when deployed solo. Even more hilariously, Riptides suck against them. SMS basically pings off T5/2+, the IA can't one-shot them, and they still get a 5++ save. Lol.

TL-SMS (assume BS3) : 4(3/4)(1/2)(1/6) = 0.25
IA Blast (assume hit) : 1(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55

So it's going to take 400-600 pts of Riptides to remove a 61pt unit. Crisis Suits aren't so hot either.

2x TL-Fusion : 2(3/4)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.83
2x TL-Plasma : 4(3/4)(2/3)(2/3) = 1.33

I was joking in my reply above but Mutilators have a lot of value that's not immediately apparent. It's entirely based around MSU tactics, rather than the statline or special rules of the unit.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:07:39


Post by: Martel732


I don't know my opponent ahead of time. I can't use specialized solutions. I could draw Necrons, and then those dreads look really, really sad.

I'm beginning to lean towards more storm shields as a more generalized solution. At 2000, I can put a lot of storm shields in an archangel sanguine wing formation.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:14:45


Post by: Yoyoyo


Martel732 wrote:
I don't know my opponent ahead of time. I can't use specialized solutions. I could draw Necrons, and then those dreads look really, really sad.

I think you need to get creative, BA is more and more outgunned with every release.

Null Deployment to stay off the board is good, staying in the air to minimize incoming fire is good.

That 3x Stormraven formation is a nice start but there's not a ton of points left for punchy units.

DC Dreadnoughts would certainly be effective if they make it in.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:15:43


Post by: Arson Fire


A little earlier in the thread someone was suggesting pinning psychic powers and weapons as an answer to riptides.
You can't pin a riptide. Monstrous creatures can never go to ground. Voluntarily or otherwise.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:21:22


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't know my opponent ahead of time. I can't use specialized solutions. I could draw Necrons, and then those dreads look really, really sad.

I think you need to get creative, BA is more and more outgunned with every release.

Null Deployment to stay off the board is good, staying in the air to minimize incoming fire is good.

That 3x Stormraven formation is a nice start but there's not a ton of points left for punchy units.

DC Dreadnoughts would certainly be effective if they make it in.


Furiosos are better in general, because of front AV 13.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:29:04


Post by: Jancoran


Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:38:10


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:40:18


Post by: Yoyoyo


How about 3x Furiosos embarked in Stormravens that enter on T1?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:41:39


Post by: reevesshady


I'm always a fan of the Shadowseer technique. I took down a Wraith Knight with the psychic power that does a leadership roll off until they win or you tie. Freakshow tactics are needed but if you have a 10 and they have a 6, you have a hard time losing. It might take 15 minutes of dice rolling, but chances are they will lose.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:44:17


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
How about 3x Furiosos embarked in Stormravens that enter on T1?


Add them to Angel's Fury? Maybe. I feel like most non-Tau lists wouldn't care about this, though. I know I wouldn't as a BA player.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:48:42


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.


Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:49:30


Post by: Ashiraya


So you're saying to list tailor?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:51:20


Post by: pumaman1


Yoyoyo wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Mutilators are hilarious, VP pressure can force targets into range. We saw one punch out a Stormraven in the Mutilator thread. Lol.

They don't need to be fast as they can saturate an area when deployed solo. Even more hilariously, Riptides suck against them. SMS basically pings off T5/2+, the IA can't one-shot them, and they still get a 5++ save. Lol.

TL-SMS (assume BS3) : 4(3/4)(1/2)(1/6) = 0.25
IA Blast (assume hit) : 1(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55

So it's going to take 400-600 pts of Riptides to remove a 61pt unit. Crisis Suits aren't so hot either.

2x TL-Fusion : 2(3/4)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.83
2x TL-Plasma : 4(3/4)(2/3)(2/3) = 1.33

I was joking in my reply above but Mutilators have a lot of value that's not immediately apparent. It's entirely based around MSU tactics, rather than the statline or special rules of the unit.


the riptide wont use blast, they'll us the 3 s7ap2 shots each, and can also bring TL rapid fire (2 hits) plasma at S6. or fusion at TL fusion as s8 ap1.
To your credit the SMS is the most versatile and most common, 30" no LOW ignore cover s5 is all solid


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:51:39


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.


Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.


Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:54:13


Post by: pumaman1


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.


Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.


Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.


Now Martel, if you know tau is playing at all, or even possible, plan on 1 or more riptides. Either how to destroy them with 600 pts worth in 1 turn, or to tie them up/ignore then with 200 points. There is no surprise a tau player is bringing a riptide.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:54:52


Post by: Martel732


I don't know what army faction my opponent has ahead of time. It could be anything.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:58:39


Post by: Jancoran


 Ashiraya wrote:
So you're saying to list tailor?


Lol. Someone asks a direct question and answering it gets this response? Are you kidding me?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 19:59:57


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
So you're saying to list tailor?


Lol. Someone asks a direct question and answering it gets this response? Are you kidding me?


I guess I didn't phrase my question properly. My bad. I'm guessing a generalized approach is going to take a lot more time.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:00:12


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.


Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.


Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.


How could you possibly create a list without accounting for the possibility of a Wraith KNight or a Riptide? You won't. So you REALLY need to make sure you can handle both. and the list core i gave you really does.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:00:54


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.


Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.


Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.


Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.


How could you possibly create a list without accounting for the possibility of a Wraith KNight or a Riptide? You won't. So you REALLY need to make sure you can handle both. and the list core i gave you really does.


You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me. Or anyone that happens to have a few meltas laying around.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:02:52


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.


How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:06:27


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.


How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.



Because I know how fast Furiosos die in 7th ed. Your core is exploiting the fact that the IA and HYMP are relatively inefficient vs AV 13. Eldar don't have this property, and really neither do most Imperial lists. Your proposed list would get wrecked in a BA mirror match vs a standard BA list of the same point value.

In fact, i ran double Furioso for a long until hps came along and took their balls away.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:09:33


Post by: Yoyoyo


 pumaman1 wrote:
the riptide wont use blast, they'll us the 3 s7ap2 shots each, and can also bring TL rapid fire (2 hits) plasma at S6. or fusion at TL fusion as s8 ap1.
To your credit the SMS is the most versatile and most common, 30" no LOW ignore cover s5 is all solid

Oops! Good point. For comparison:

IA Blast (assume hit) : 1(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55
BS3 IA : 3(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.83
BS2 IA : 3(1/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55

The formation bonus definitely helps out a little.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:13:56


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.


How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.



Because I know how fast Furiosos die in 7th ed. Your core is exploiting the fact that the IA and HYMP are relatively inefficient vs AV 13. Eldar don't have this property, and really neither do most Imperial lists. Your proposed list would get wrecked in a BA mirror match vs a standard BA list of the same point value.


Actually...AV 13 isnt that easy for them to break and even if they do... you have a lot more than they have shots that can do it.

i think you should try it before telling me Im wrong. but just to prove a point maybe after I do the stupid Batrep i have to do for Mutilators (I havent forgotten) i will do this one. Its so much work to track someone down with the right army and all that but Maybe Ill just proxy some stuff. Who cares if it gets the point across right?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:16:38


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.


How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.



Because I know how fast Furiosos die in 7th ed. Your core is exploiting the fact that the IA and HYMP are relatively inefficient vs AV 13. Eldar don't have this property, and really neither do most Imperial lists. Your proposed list would get wrecked in a BA mirror match vs a standard BA list of the same point value.


Actually...AV 13 isnt that easy for them to break and even if they do... you have a lot more than they have shots that can do it.

i think you should try it before telling me Im wrong. but just to prove a point maybe after I do the stupid Batrep i have to do for Mutilators (I havent forgotten) i will do this one. Its so much work to track someone down with the right army and all that but Maybe Ill just proxy some stuff. Who cares if it gets the point across right?


I've used Furiosos a LOT more than than anyone talking to you about Mulilators. Big, big, BIG difference. If the Furioso had AV 13 sides, I would be more inclined to agree with you. But it's really easy for Eldar to D weapon them to death or hp them out with scatterlasers on the side armor. There's a reason I really detest the scatterlaser. It singlehandedly ruins such a strategy against Eldar. Because you are right; they don't have enough D-weapons, but they have more than enough mobile scatterlasers with 3+ armor.

Unfortunately, AV 13 is very easy for most armies to break in 7.5. IK get a pass because they have a 4++ shield and they can come in a list where anti-infantry weapons are literally useless. That stresses the anti-tank resources of most lists to the breaking point. Furiosos don't.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:17:42


Post by: pumaman1


I think what may help out our conversation about the tau is what is another unit that is good for the points cost? not comparing versus the WK, which is the most broken, or dreadnaughts/walkers in general, which are the most broken in the other way. But what is a unit that in general is a good unit for the points?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:25:54


Post by: Martel732


Everyone will say msu dc for ba, but riptides are very proficient at dropping ignore cover templates all over them before they can assault. With the nova reactor, they deny fnp even.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:26:51


Post by: Scott-S6


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.


The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.


Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood anfels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.


I'd never give gw that much money at this point. I'm super hesitant to get a single knight.


You can't borrow someone's spare army for a while?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:27:30


Post by: Martel732


Never thought about that before.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:30:19


Post by: pumaman1


They don't even need to nova charge, just regular over charge for that.
But in particular, not units that are "supposedly good against riptides" but units in the game that are also good, at large.

Riptides are good, versus certain codecies, overwhelming, but hardly the only unit in that place.

But my purpose is not to put thunderwolf cavalry versus riptides in a 24" apart deployment 1v1.. its to compare the riptide versus other "good" units in the game and try and see if they are in the end better, worse (unlikely), about even, or specialized for 1 task.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:48:07


Post by: Quickjager


An interesting exercise.

Dreadknight
Wraithknight
Wraith
Thunderwolf
Centurion
Imperial Knight
Daemon Prince
Flyrant
Wraithguard
Wyvern
Stormsurge
Sevrin Loth
Windriders
Darkshroud

What these all have in common is they all have a way to mitigate the amount of shooting coming at them. Whether it be through LoS blocking, good stats, psychic powers. They are reliable.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 20:48:25


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
They don't even need to nova charge, just regular over charge for that.
But in particular, not units that are "supposedly good against riptides" but units in the game that are also good, at large.

Riptides are good, versus certain codecies, overwhelming, but hardly the only unit in that place.

But my purpose is not to put thunderwolf cavalry versus riptides in a 24" apart deployment 1v1.. its to compare the riptide versus other "good" units in the game and try and see if they are in the end better, worse (unlikely), about even, or specialized for 1 task.


I always get those two modes messed up.

I suppose it's very possible that the Riptide is the most durable thing for the points in the whole game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Quickjager wrote:
An interesting exercise.

Dreadknight
Wraithknight
Wraith
Thunderwolf
Centurion
Imperial Knight
Daemon Prince
Flyrant
Wraithguard
Basilisk
Stormsurge
Tiggy
Sevrin Loth
Windriders
Darkshroud


Black Knights. HYMP missilesides.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 21:33:43


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Have I missed something regarding the Basilisk? Because last I looked it's nowhere near as good as the other units on that list.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 21:42:55


Post by: pumaman1


The basilisk? i would pull that one as a hard no, with its large minimum range, and so easy to take out... and always scattering when used the designed way..

So in general, it appears that really killy units are more favored, from the 2 responses so far. I appreciate the dark shroud being added for its great utility.

and outside of the DarkShroud and eldar units, very very high durability units.

so what are some of the tactics you've used to beat/account for the units on this list? because everyone non-ork/DE have something there, even if i disagree with basilisk


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 21:43:35


Post by: master of ordinance


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Have I missed something regarding the Basilisk? Because last I looked it's nowhere near as good as the other units on that list.

The Basilisk is currently a joke.
I think someone does not play IG


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 21:50:26


Post by: Quickjager


My apologies my local player proxies his basilisk as wyverns. I make that mistake pretty often, so if I ever say basilisk I mean wyvern.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 22:05:39


Post by: master of ordinance


 Quickjager wrote:
My apologies my local player proxies his basilisk as wyverns. I make that mistake pretty often, so if I ever say basilisk I mean wyvern.

Ahh, fair does then


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 22:09:04


Post by: Byte


alex0911 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.
However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..


This Tau player thinks the new book is great, add the campaign books, wow. Power creep, very unbalanced compared to a few other books no doubt. The Riptide remains a beasts. Now take three of them at a time with no tax. Stupid.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 22:20:25


Post by: pumaman1


 Byte wrote:
alex0911 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.
However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..


This Tau player thinks the new book is great, add the campaign books, wow. Power creep, very unbalanced compared to a few other books no doubt. The Riptide remains a beasts. Now take three of them at a time with no tax. Stupid.


this thread in general agrees the riptide is good. and versus old/intentionally bad codecies (orks BA etc) overwhelming in most cases. HOWEVER it isn't unique in being overwhelming to those codecies. and to try and do a more fair comparison (not it sucks vs wraithknight, its too good versus walkers), lets try comparing it to other good units in the game, and try and see if it is comparable to other good units.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 22:24:12


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
 Byte wrote:
alex0911 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.
However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..


This Tau player thinks the new book is great, add the campaign books, wow. Power creep, very unbalanced compared to a few other books no doubt. The Riptide remains a beasts. Now take three of them at a time with no tax. Stupid.


this thread in general agrees the riptide is good. and versus old/intentionally bad codecies (orks BA etc) overwhelming in most cases. HOWEVER it isn't unique in being overwhelming to those codecies. and to try and do a more fair comparison (not it sucks vs wraithknight, its too good versus walkers), lets try comparing it to other good units in the game, and try and see if it is comparable to other good units.


I agree that the firepower is way less than a Crusader Knight or, I don't know, unbuffed grav centurions. However, it's so much harder to kill on a per point basis than those things it's incredibly frustrating.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 22:31:20


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


We've already seen that a Riptide in 4+ cover on average doesn't die to 4 Grav-centurions shooting it. Grav-centurions are tailored to murder 2+ armour save MCs and in this case costs almost 100 points less than the Gravturions, and that's not taking into account that the Gravturions only have 24" range on the cannons. Grav Skyhammer Devastators have an identical damage output to 4 Gravturions except they're much more vulnerable to getting Intercepted off the board before they even get to shoot. Grav-weapons, one of the cheesiest, most complained about (and rightly so) weapons in the game, doesn't really deal with Riptides. That's the level of silly we're talking.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 22:43:08


Post by: pumaman1


RIght, walrus. But its not the only thing in the game. So what is your counter to a dreadknight? same toughness, same armor, possibly can get better invuls, has good melee, 1 less wound. can hide in terrain too.
Or how do you deal with thunderwolves, t5 cavalry with 3++ about 1/2 the time running your way?

and it was noted earlier that it should take much more to wipe a unit off the field in 1 turn that the unit costs. it doesn't make sense to field a 300 pt unit that is easily killed by 100 pts.
Or how do you deal with a dark shroud giving those ravenwing knights shroud in the open coming at you? there are a lot of good units that you cant kill in 1 shooting phase, how do you deal with these others?

if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:13:47


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
RIght, walrus. But its not the only thing in the game. So what is your counter to a dreadknight? same toughness, same armor, possibly can get better invuls, has good melee, 1 less wound. can hide in terrain too.
Or how do you deal with thunderwolves, t5 cavalry with 3++ about 1/2 the time running your way?

and it was noted earlier that it should take much more to wipe a unit off the field in 1 turn that the unit costs. it doesn't make sense to field a 300 pt unit that is easily killed by 100 pts.
Or how do you deal with a dark shroud giving those ravenwing knights shroud in the open coming at you? there are a lot of good units that you cant kill in 1 shooting phase, how do you deal with these others?

if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.


I can make the Dreadknight come out of cover. Plus, it has no access to FNP. I murder these things left and right with god damn BA. They aren't even in the same conversation as Riptides to me.

TWC are another unit I'd put up there with the Riptide, but even they only rock a 3+ save or 3++ save, maybe with FNP, but it's still much easier to dakka them down than a Riptide.

Riptides can withstand fire from multiple units that cost much, much more than them. That seems a bit crazy to me.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:16:11


Post by: Drasius


 pumaman1 wrote:
if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.


I've seen this repeated many times and is right up there in the contest for most rediculous thing ever said on these forums. How? How does it benefit me to have one of my units (usually one specifically designed to counter the very thing that intercepted it) destroyed or crippled before it even gets to cast/shoot? Since the drone net hands out interceptor and BS3 to drones, the riptides can easily have marker support even during my turn.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:21:58


Post by: Ashiraya


 pumaman1 wrote:
RIght, walrus. But its not the only thing in the game. So what is your counter to a dreadknight? same toughness, same armor, possibly can get better invuls, has good melee, 1 less wound. can hide in terrain too.


The Dreadknight has to get in close to deal damage, forcing it to move into the teeth of your guns. The Riptide can kill you from a table away.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:22:10


Post by: pumaman1


Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:25:46


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.


The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:26:38


Post by: pumaman1


 Drasius wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.


I've seen this repeated many times and is right up there in the contest for most rediculous thing ever said on these forums. How? How does it benefit me to have one of my units (usually one specifically designed to counter the very thing that intercepted it) destroyed or crippled before it even gets to cast/shoot? Since the drone net hands out interceptor and BS3 to drones, the riptides can easily have marker support even during my turn.


how is: most players in my area aren't running drone nets. maybe yours is different. 2nd, bs3, so big scary template is going scatter >50% of the time. 3rd: maybe place them around the corner from the target unit so you can't be shot? or in terrain for a cover save and risk the dangerous terrain? or more than 1 unit at a time?
what are you bringing via deepstrike that is consistently destroyed every time? because maybe terminators aren't the solution


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:27:03


Post by: Martel732


I get four to six times the shots against the dreadknight without even having to get to mid field. Plus gk can't pie plate all my guys to death. It actually has to come put itself in danger.

Yes, it can roll biomancy, but that's a lot of if come maybe versus the riptide's guaranteed fnp. Come play against both as ba and you'll immediately see the difference.

I can't force the riptide out of cover because nothing lives to get that close.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:28:33


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Dreadknights aren't allowed to roll on any table whatsoever. They've got one less wound, they don!' they FNP, and they don't remove stuff from the other side of the board starting turn 1, and it's still a great unit.

Thunderwolves similarly don't kill me from across the board, they have to come to me, which means I might actually get to charge something for once. 5 Thunderwolves are just 10 Marines in toughness for a MEQ with Furious Charge.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:29:09


Post by: pumaman1


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.


The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.


but the dreadknight can move, shunt, and still charge. it can cover most the board just that fast. and if tau sit back and shoot, and you play with terrain, you've probably won the game on objectives


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:30:45


Post by: Martel732


No it can't charge after it shunts. It has to stand there a turn and take it in the face.

Tau usually table me making objectives moot.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:32:36


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Martel732 wrote:
No it can't charge after it shunts. It has to stand there a turn and take it in the face.


This. I'd also like to emphasise once again that Dreadknights absolutely do not get to roll on any table. They've got Sanctuary and Banishment default, and that's it. No Iron Arm, no Endurance, no nuthin'.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:34:12


Post by: Martel732


Dreadknight routinely get raped by my dc. Why? They have to close on the grav bikers. In this scenario, I get to be the tau.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:34:21


Post by: Jancoran


 pumaman1 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.


The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.


but the dreadknight can move, shunt, and still charge. it can cover most the board just that fast. and if tau sit back and shoot, and you play with terrain, you've probably won the game on objectives


cant charge when it shunts


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:35:09


Post by: pumaman1


wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:35:13


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


 pumaman1 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.


The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.


but the dreadknight can move, shunt, and still charge. it can cover most the board just that fast. and if tau sit back and shoot, and you play with terrain, you've probably won the game on objectives


It get's a turn of sitting there useless as it can't assault after shunting, with this turn I get to dictate how it's engaged, rather than just being pelted off the board at long range from marker lights and the riptides, which forces you to close the distance or get tabled, this allows the Tau to dictate how to engage.

See the difference?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:35:56


Post by: Ashiraya


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
5 Thunderwolves are just 10 Marines in toughness for a MEQ with Furious Charge.


I think this is worth pointing out.

Martel, how hard is it to kill 10 tacticals in CC?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:37:35


Post by: Martel732


 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


If you army swapped with me, you'd get very annoyed very quickly. Trust me. Fyi, I have army swapped with tau and both players conceded beford turn 4. The tau are ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
5 Thunderwolves are just 10 Marines in toughness for a MEQ with Furious Charge.


I think this is worth pointing out.

Martel, how hard is it to kill 10 tacticals in CC?


Ive had 15 dc kill every tac marine in a gladius before. 10 might as well not exist.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:43:41


Post by: quickfuze


 pumaman1 wrote:
The basilisk? i would pull that one as a hard no, with its large minimum range, and so easy to take out... and always scattering when used the designed way..

So in general, it appears that really killy units are more favored, from the 2 responses so far. I appreciate the dark shroud being added for its great utility.

and outside of the DarkShroud and eldar units, very very high durability units.

so what are some of the tactics you've used to beat/account for the units on this list? because everyone non-ork/DE have something there, even if i disagree with basilisk


You realize when it has los and fires directly, it has no minimum distance right?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:48:11


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Granted, the Thunderwolves are probably going to get the charge on something and maul it severely, but then they get ganged up on by absolutely everything. Even against the stuff that doesn't have S5, a 3+ with T5 takes 4 times the wounds from S4 shooting compared to T6 2+, and that's not taking FNP into account.

In short, Thunderwolves are good because they're one of the few units that can catch Riptides and Scatterbikes in CC and proceed to murder them to death.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:48:41


Post by: pumaman1


 quickfuze wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
The basilisk? i would pull that one as a hard no, with its large minimum range, and so easy to take out... and always scattering when used the designed way..

So in general, it appears that really killy units are more favored, from the 2 responses so far. I appreciate the dark shroud being added for its great utility.

and outside of the DarkShroud and eldar units, very very high durability units.

so what are some of the tactics you've used to beat/account for the units on this list? because everyone non-ork/DE have something there, even if i disagree with basilisk


You realize when it has los and fires directly, it has no minimum distance right?


its still only bs3, 12-10-10 shooting ordinance, making its heavy bolter snap fire, equivalent points in wyverns do more damage to infantry on average

and as Designed to be used, shooting far end of table safely behind a building..


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:51:49


Post by: Martel732


So about that mighty mighty dreadknight?

Maybe it scares tau players because it shunts, but rest of us, including eldar, don't care.

Your pie plates mean nothing to it and hymp are very inefficient against t6 2+ armor.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/12 23:52:54


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Man 8 pages of a BA player's QQ about a riptide, thats dedication


Though I thank Blood Angles for the Drop Pod taxi service.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:00:23


Post by: X078


Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:00:36


Post by: BoomWolf


 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:02:01


Post by: Martel732


X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


Ironically not nearly as well as a riptide. Melta actually matters to a knight. And scatbikes will hp out a knight long before they've scratched a riptide. Riptides are so crazy that they are actually poor targets for scatterbikes. But super heavy walkers that cost twice as much die like bitches.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:11:41


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


You missed the bit about Gravcents and a riptide having a toe in cover then?

Or maybe the part where people picked a faction as they happened to like it and aren't too interested in the others?

Or feel that jumping onto the new hotness just to compete, is a bit bandwagony, and aren't the kind of people to do that?

Or feel that a codex should be able to stand on it's own feet so that it can compete?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:13:13


Post by: Martel732


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


You missed the bit about Gravcents and a riptide having a toe in cover then?

Or maybe the part where people picked a faction as they happened to like it and aren't too interested in the others?

Or feel that jumping onto the new hotness just to compete, is a bit bandwagony, and aren't the kind of people to do that?

Or feel that a codex should be able to stand on it's own feet so that it can compete?


I'd feel better about fielding a knight if it wasn't a piece of junk compared to this thing. I feel like I would be getting ripped off if I fielded one.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:14:01


Post by: X078


Martel732 wrote:
X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


Ironically not nearly as well as a riptide. Melta actually matters to a knight. And scatbikes will hp out a knight long before they've scratched a riptide. Riptides are so crazy that they are actually poor targets for scatterbikes. But super heavy walkers that cost twice as much die like bitches.


Most knights should be able to them pretty well once in close combat, also the Forgeworld Cerastus knights is another good option.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:15:32


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


 BoomWolf wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:15:47


Post by: Martel732


X078 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


Ironically not nearly as well as a riptide. Melta actually matters to a knight. And scatbikes will hp out a knight long before they've scratched a riptide. Riptides are so crazy that they are actually poor targets for scatterbikes. But super heavy walkers that cost twice as much die like bitches.


Most knights should be able to them pretty well once in close combat, also the Forgeworld Cerastus knights is another good option.


"Once in close combat" keeps coming up in this thread over and over. It is the Tau's specialty to make sure that never, ever happens. It's the Eldar's per se, but it is in this edition. The Knight is a lot better against the Tau than the Eldar, though. The Eldar just "LOL D-weapon" the thing.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:16:14


Post by: X078


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


You missed the bit about Gravcents and a riptide having a toe in cover then?

Or maybe the part where people picked a faction as they happened to like it and aren't too interested in the others?

Or feel that jumping onto the new hotness just to compete, is a bit bandwagony, and aren't the kind of people to do that?

Or feel that a codex should be able to stand on it's own feet so that it can compete?


Well not all match-ups are fair, you might just have to ally in other units or switch army depending on what you play.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:16:57


Post by: Martel732


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.



Nurgle mutilators are more suvivable/pt against Riptides than anything in my entire codex. Think about that a second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
X078 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


You missed the bit about Gravcents and a riptide having a toe in cover then?

Or maybe the part where people picked a faction as they happened to like it and aren't too interested in the others?

Or feel that jumping onto the new hotness just to compete, is a bit bandwagony, and aren't the kind of people to do that?

Or feel that a codex should be able to stand on it's own feet so that it can compete?


Well not all match-ups are fair, you might just have to ally in other units or switch army depending on what you play.


So I can ally in those grav centurions that STILL won't get the job done? But sure will die when pie plated twice.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:18:36


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


Martel732 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.



Nurgle mutilators are more suvivable/pt against Riptides than anything in my entire codex. Think about that a second.


Survivability doesn't help when you can't get to your target.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:19:04


Post by: Martel732


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.



Nurgle mutilators are more suvivable/pt against Riptides than anything in my entire codex. Think about that a second.


Survivability doesn't help when you can't get to your target.


I'm not saying they're awesome. I'm just sayin.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:19:26


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Ashiraya wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
5 Thunderwolves are just 10 Marines in toughness for a MEQ with Furious Charge.


I think this is worth pointing out.

Martel, how hard is it to kill 10 tacticals in CC?

Not hard, but Thunder Wolves can grab a 3++ and have 4-5 Rending attacks, ranging from S5 and upwards.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:20:23


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


X078 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
X078 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread other than saying the Riptide is tough when facing it with less than optimal units? Maybe it's time to switch armies then or get some allies. Imperial knights seem to work pretty well.


You missed the bit about Gravcents and a riptide having a toe in cover then?

Or maybe the part where people picked a faction as they happened to like it and aren't too interested in the others?

Or feel that jumping onto the new hotness just to compete, is a bit bandwagony, and aren't the kind of people to do that?

Or feel that a codex should be able to stand on it's own feet so that it can compete?


Well not all match-ups are fair, you might just have to ally in other units or switch army depending on what you play.


I think you may have missed the point.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:20:57


Post by: Martel732


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
5 Thunderwolves are just 10 Marines in toughness for a MEQ with Furious Charge.


I think this is worth pointing out.

Martel, how hard is it to kill 10 tacticals in CC?

Not hard, but Thunder Wolves can grab a 3++ and have 4-5 Rending attacks, ranging from S5 and upwards.


Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point. I suppose Tau are taking a minor risk hanging back if they don't complete the tabling, but who am I fooling here? They are gonna complete the tabling. #ignorescoverforthewin


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:21:48


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


Spoiler:
Martel732 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.



Nurgle mutilators are more suvivable/pt against Riptides than anything in my entire codex. Think about that a second.


Survivability doesn't help when you can't get to your target.


I'm not saying they're awesome. I'm just sayin.


Oh for sure, but I was more raging at the Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.


than anything else.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:22:15


Post by: Yoyoyo


Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:22:59


Post by: Martel732


You don't need AA in 7.5. Because most flyers are junk. I don't run AA, and of the dozens of BA losses in 7.5, that accounted for like two. And the only one the BA have is mega-junk. Expensive, very expensive per hull point, lousy shooting for 7.5 and has to start in reserve. Totally worth it, I tell you.

Actually, Riptides don't need EWO, because things that drop next to them can't shoot them to death anyway. When I swapped with Tau, I preferred to regular shoot them with my marker light support. The drone thingy wasn't out yet.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:28:19


Post by: Yoyoyo


Not what I asked.

Can your Tau opponent shoot down Stormravens?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:29:26


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
Not what I asked.

Can your Tau opponent shoot down Stormravens?


I think so, because they put the skyfire thingie on the broadsides. I rarely field SR because they are bad, so it doesn't come up much.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:32:19


Post by: Yoyoyo


You might have to go counter-meta here, bad or not.

If you are getting shot off the board that's not better!

Shooting Riptides is a dead end, so you will need to assault I think...

Despite that, killing the supporting army quickly is probably more productive than any other action you could take against the Riptides


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:33:45


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
You might have to go counter-meta here, bad or not.

If you are getting shot of the board that's not better!


Maybe? I really need the ground presence against lots of other foes, though. I just can't jump on the SR bandwagon to counter Tau. If I draw Gladius, and I'm packing SRs, I just lost. Automatically.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:35:46


Post by: Jancoran


Yoyoyo wrote:
You might have to go counter-meta here, bad or not.

If you are getting shot off the board that's not better!

Shooting Riptides is a dead end, so you will need to assault I think...

Despite that, killing the supporting army quickly is probably more productive than any other action you could take against the Riptides


It pains me that this even needs to be explained. It's absolutely true.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:37:26


Post by: Martel732


"Despite that, killing the supporting army quickly is probably more productive than any other action you could take against the Riptides"

BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The Tau can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up. Tau players aren't dumb. They protect their fragile units with kill zones that you can't get through. I don't use many pods, because against the whole field, pods suck for BA. "Gee, I'd like to use the furious charge but I just came down in this pod. I guess you can shoot me now, so I never get to use my furious charge."

Things would play out a lot differently with AV 12 transports I think so fire warriors couldn't HP them out.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:42:58


Post by: Yoyoyo


Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up.

That's the point of null deployment, flyers and and charge from DS, you're minimizing damage from the enemy.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:43:54


Post by: Byte


Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:44:41


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up.

That's the point of null deployment, flyers and and charge from DS, you're minimizing damage from the enemy.


Which would be great if I were tailoring for Tau. But I'm not. That list fails hard against too many archetypes I battle frequently. Like Gladius. If I were tailoring, I would just go straight to Angel's Fury and tell the Tau enjoy your interceptor shooting phase, because it's the only one you're getting. But Angel's fury is a terrible generalist list. Something like Jancoran's CSM list would rape it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:47:28


Post by: Jancoran


YOU are either planning for Tau or you're wasting time in this thread. So which one is it? Are you or ARENT you going to plan for Tau?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:48:46


Post by: Martel732


How many times have I stated that I don't know my opponent ahead of time. So how could I possibly plan for Tau? I could draw green tide for all I know. I just said that if I WERE planning for Tau, I'd just use Angel's Fury and be done with it. But I'm not going to do that, because Angel's Fury is an autolose too much of the time. My problem with the Riptide is in an all-comers environment, and the fact that is soaks damage better than a Knight.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 00:59:20


Post by: Byte


Wow, I'm finding sour overtones in quite a few Dakka threads these days.

OP- Maybe you should clarify what your looking for in your first post.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 01:02:02


Post by: Martel732


I guess a sanity check of sorts. Although the jury seems rather split on this issue. I guess I continue to be dumbstruck that this thing is so much better than much more expensive iks. It's side thread from an original thread where tau players were complaining about itc nerfs.

A lot of advice is centered around the idea of never bothering to even try to fight this thing, which seems so disheartening. Kill all the support and just suck down 18 pie plates over 6 turns?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 01:37:05


Post by: Yoyoyo


Nobody's split on the durability of the thing. That's why you need to fight it asymetrically.

Drop it to T5 with Enfeeble and hit it with a Vindicator, assuming FNP it's now more than 5 times less survivable.

Nobody wants to suck down 18 pie plates... but if you're not given a choice, it's better they don't have Ignore Cover and +4 BS, right?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 03:25:20


Post by: Nocturus


 Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points


Are you referencing the SMS? That is one weapon on each tank, yes it is TL'd, it is S5 AP5 meaning it can normally only shoot down air support when it gets rear armour shots. However, if you are saying they are missile pods, which are S7 AP4. Then your opponent is cheating.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 03:30:02


Post by: Spetulhu


Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The Tau can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up. Tau players aren't dumb. They protect their fragile units with kill zones that you can't get through.


It may be my group plays on different boards than you (ones with lots of terrain to block LOS) and sure, not all are super competitive. But my SoB have yet to lose against our Tau player. I have little trouble scooting Rhinos and Immolators up the field to get at him, and by the time my outflanking Dominions come in it's usually a total rout for any Tau infantry (and he also lost several vehicles that turn). I never manage to kill all his suits, but that doesn't matter when I win on objectives that he can't contest without putting his precious suits in my Exorcists' sights.

If I fought him on a parking lot he would win every time, of that I have no doubt.

edit: and ofc, I usually outnumber him severely - if I bring 81 sisters he has at most 35-40 models. So what if half the sisters become martyrs as long as the xeno scum burns?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 03:42:03


Post by: Quickjager


This has been a pretty decent discussion ignoring the fact puma has been saying Dreadknights get to charge after they shunt and choose what table they roll on.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 04:09:36


Post by: Byte


Nocturus wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points


Are you referencing the SMS? That is one weapon on each tank, yes it is TL'd, it is S5 AP5 meaning it can normally only shoot down air support when it gets rear armour shots. However, if you are saying they are missile pods, which are S7 AP4. Then your opponent is cheating.


Hardly, there are multiple variants of the Hammerhead. Do your research.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 05:32:57


Post by: Nocturus


That is one of the varient HH's from the Taros Campaign then. I've never seen someone field them. I'm aware they exist though I wasn't aware it was two missile pods I thought it had a different stat line. I own both the second and first edition of the Taros Campaign, so I'd appreciae if you take your town down a bit with your "do your research" comment. You didn't mention they were swapping out their main weapons for something outside of the Tau codex. Something I'm fairly certain most people don't do.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 06:12:59


Post by: Quickjager


Nocturus wrote:
That is one of the varient HH's from the Taros Campaign then. I've never seen someone field them. I'm aware they exist though I wasn't aware it was two missile pods I thought it had a different stat line. I own both the second and first edition of the Taros Campaign, so I'd appreciae if you take your town down a bit with your "do your research" comment. You didn't mention they were swapping out their main weapons for something outside of the Tau codex. Something I'm fairly certain most people don't do.


To be fair, we have already had three Tau players be completely wrong about a unit in this thread already. Kind of getting sick of it.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 06:13:10


Post by: Inkubas


I face 2-3 Riptides and a storm surge. My opponent uses marker lights and a buff commander to boost his army. The range, ap, ignore cover and rules limit what I can do. It's not easy but it is doable.
I am of those that feel that tau need a Nerf, but I don't think you know what you want. You can make a list to counter tau meta or a TAC. Pick one. You can't have both. Sorry.

I stopped running land raiders when the D hit the table. I retired much of my deathwing with my latest codex and because of tau rules I don't run my Ravenwing in full if I may be facing tau. Why? Because I know that I will complicate things by doing so.

Do I wish for buffs? Not really. Do I hope for tau balance? Absolutely. It's established that tau is top dog (or at very least a contender) and blood Angels are on the bottom (or close to) in the codex list.

So just admit that fact. Know it in your core and make peace with it. If you face tau bring a list any play your strengths. If you have no strength then don't face tau. Or make a TAC knowing that you will probably die horribly. Sell your Angels as deeply as you can and make Dante proud.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 06:33:04


Post by: Jancoran


Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobody's split on the durability of the thing. That's why you need to fight it asymetrically.

Drop it to T5 with Enfeeble and hit it with a Vindicator, assuming FNP it's now more than 5 times less survivable.

Nobody wants to suck down 18 pie plates... but if you're not given a choice, it's better they don't have Ignore Cover and +4 BS, right?


Fun fact: DarkStrider + Gunrig = one shot Riptide. Whuuuuuuut. But yes!

I mean assuming you're wondering what a really low cost way to kill one is. =)



Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 08:22:23


Post by: Crimson Devil


@Martel,

Could you go over the process your group uses to decide matches? Can you have more than one list ready and choose after you know your opponent? Or do you guys frown on that?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 12:16:53


Post by: Yoyoyo


Spetulhu wrote:
I have little trouble scooting Rhinos and Immolators up the field to get at him... It may be my group plays on different boards than you (ones with lots of terrain to block LOS)...

I usually outnumber him severely - if I bring 81 sisters he has at most 35-40 models...

I never manage to kill all his suits, but that doesn't matter when I win on objectives that he can't contest without putting his precious suits in my Exorcists' sights....

If I fought him on a parking lot he would win every time, of that I have no doubt.

Sorry for rearranging your post Spetulhu, I wanted to highlight something. Model count is important, you can't play to objectives if your force is so fragile you get tabled. If you build around damage output rather than resiliency that's a big risk.

MSU DC is great but they've got the same problems as Warp Talons, in lacking an Invul save they're even more fragile once you shut down FNP and take away Cover. Comparing 5x Warp Talons (160pts, ~32ppm) to 5x DC (140pts w/JP, PF, ~28ppm) :

Death Company versus 5x S8 AP2 hits : 5(5/6) = 4.16W(28ppm) = ~116pts
Warp Talons versus 5x S8 AP2 hits : 5(5/6)(2/3) = 2.78W(32ppm) = ~89pts

DC and Warp Talons obviously wreck face against their perfect targets, but keeping them alive against hard counters isn't exactly simple. I mean, Warp Talons are perfect for tearing up Gladius infantry, but you'd probably do a double take if you saw a list with 3x squads of them. And without FNP and Cover, DC begin to exhibit a lot of the same pros and cons.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 12:30:26


Post by: BoomWolf


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work


Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.


Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.




For the god knows how many times already-the fact your codex is a FAILURE OF A CODEX AND NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN has no bearing what-so-ever on anything else any other army has. riptides included.
And it was a faliure of a codex even before riptides were originally introduced.
(Though honestly, I mostly lashed at BA players so far, but CSM is just as bad if not worse)

The chaos codex is the problem, not the riptide, because the chaos codex is underpowered compared to the vast majority of the game.
Every "generic marine" unit in CSM is overshadowed by its loyalist counterpart. sorcerer excluded (though once you factor formations and special characters, sorcerers are also overshadowed by librarians)
Cult units often fail at their own specialization even compared to CSM generic units. let alone loyalist counterparts. (Zerkers are usually outdone by khornemarines, noise are high I with no grenades and a mishmash of guns with little focus, 1Ksons are painful to talk about)
Daemon marines are mostly overpriced (possessed), or cause anti-synergy with themselves from how badly they are designed (mutilators, warp talons)
Daemon engines are often overpriced (defiler), tanks are inferior to their loyalist versions or just lack options (land raiders for example)

Practically 90% of the CSM codex needs to be buffed to bring it in line with the relevant armies. saying they have a hard time against riptides is a non-issue, as they can't fight anything worth a damn to begin with.
And that's highly unfortunate, as they are my second favorite faction, and for a long time I wanted to start a chaos army but just can't bring myself to it with the horrid rules they have.
Had I been tasked to write a new CSM codex. I would have scrapped it entirely, erased it from existence and wrote it from scratch, because that the extent of rework required to fix that mess.





 Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points


You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 12:39:11


Post by: Martel732


 Crimson Devil wrote:
@Martel,

Could you go over the process your group uses to decide matches? Can you have more than one list ready and choose after you know your opponent? Or do you guys frown on that?


You bring a list, and then draw an opponent from a hat basically. Usually there are 8-12 people. You can't change your list after you draw.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 14:59:04


Post by: Byte


 Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)


I was simply answering a question. I could have easily just as said FSC with velocity tracking HYMP Missilesides. I don't usually bother to much with marker lights. TL'd volume of fire works just fine.

About the Missilehead, BS4, 4 TL'd str 7 that can choose to shoot ground and air targets at full BS. How is AV12 safe?

I use all variants of Hammerheads. I fav is the 2 long barreled burst cannon BS4, Str5, ap5, hvy12 36". I usually take those in 3s with the skyray.

Heres a 1850 list I use when I'm feeling grumpy.

AIC- LBBCheadsx3, skyray VT
FSC- H burst cannon-tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
FSC- H burst cannon tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
Riptidewing- Ion-tidesx3, EWO, VT

That's a 1850 list comes in at 1810.
For 2000, I reduce some VT and add a Drone net. (scoring and marking)

I only use this when I play good sports. I would never play a pick up game with this and my local events don't usually allow multiple detachments.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 15:34:53


Post by: Martel732


Redacted.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 15:46:22


Post by: BoomWolf


 Byte wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)


I was simply answering a question. I could have easily just as said FSC with velocity tracking HYMP Missilesides. I don't usually bother to much with marker lights. TL'd volume of fire works just fine.

About the Missilehead, BS4, 4 TL'd str 7 that can choose to shoot ground and air targets at full BS. How is AV12 safe?


Because S7, even with great accuracy, does not get passed AV12 all that often. a missilehead shooting at AV12 flyer will average out 0.59 glances and 0.59 pens. that's not enough to down your average plane. and given the lack of interceptor, the plane has a chance to shoot first, and many planes carry anti-tank guns that will force the hammer to jink, greatly reducing his threat.
Naturally the 3 hammers WILL take down a raven if it won't jink, but 3 hammers also cost far more than a single raven they cost almost like two. and he will have the first shot, and between its multimelta, missiles and lascannon, it will force a jink, and perhaps take one down anyway. so they are having a decent standoff where either may win. by unlike the hammer, the raven is not a dedicated shooter, but a transport with guns.
It not useless by all means, but its not exactly a hard counter.

The FSC with VT on its suits is all around is far more threatening, but has its own issues (less mobile so getting clear off it's range is easier, and the broadsides are FAR easier to remove, especially by aircraft)
For pure AA usage, I'd also consider the new Air Superiority Cadre. its surprisingly good given how lackluster razorsharks are. you will almost always catch rear shots with it when relevant, and skywatch almost assures you will have the drop on him in perfect timing.

 Byte wrote:
I use all variants of Hammerheads. I fav is the 2 long barreled burst cannon BS4, Str5, ap5, hvy12 36". I usually take those in 3s with the skyray.

Heres a 1850 list I use when I'm feeling grumpy.

AIC- LBBCheadsx3, skyray VT
FSC- H burst cannon-tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
FSC- H burst cannon tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
Riptidewing- Ion-tidesx3, EWO, VT

That's a 1850 list comes in at 1810.
For 2000, I reduce some VT and add a Drone net. (scoring and marking)

I only use this when I play good sports. I would never play a pick up game with this and my local events don't usually allow multiple detachments.


Heh. cute list.
More than enough AA, a lot of anti-interceptor, good shot count for hordes between dakkaheads, dakkatides and broadsides, and you army consists of mostly hard targets.
Dakkaheads are amusing. I keep trying to find chances to use them just for the "HUH?!" effect, especially with the overwatch upgrade.


Well, tearing this list apart....
No real marker support, so any cover save (ab)user is going to work well, and your dakkatides cant aim well.
Little in terms of heavy duty anti-tank means high AV is also a big concern.
No stims on riptides means every NOVA you make is a risk, and the HBCtides won't be nearly as threatening (BS3, no

Depending on my list, the "soft spots" for me to attack will be either:
The FSCs-broadsides are not that hard to kill, HBCtide too dependant on his NOVA to deal damage, so they will hurt themselves a bit.
The AIC-some anti tank guns should fix these, or at least force jink saves-and while jinked, the threat is reduced. can't trust on deepstrikers though, so my long guns/fast assault will have to do. (depending what army I'm playing)

The ripwing, I'll probably choose to just avoid and take cover until I take down the rest. they don't do too much damage without marker support.

Also, if I have any AV14-you are in trouble. your only real answer is the dakkatides, and they are not exactly the go-to solution here. even hen NOVA is active and tank hunter, without marks you are looking at 1 damage result, MAYBE 2.


This list might do fine in a competitive scene, but I suspect the lack of markerlights will hold it back.
I'd be glad to face it. will probably lose my first attempt as I am heavy into deepstrike with my tau-but I believe my "dream renegades" list will win with relative ease, had I had the models.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 15:50:28


Post by: Martel732


Stormravens aren't a viable unit in general, so this discussion segment is largely moot. You don't need AA against most lists, which means it doesn't go into a generalist list.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 16:06:50


Post by: Yoyoyo


Nice analysis. I know a lot of Tau players don't like taking flyers or dedicated AA, that can be punished. With Markerlights they will be more effective but due to restrictions on systems, they only have so much EWO and VT to go around. AV12 isn't trivial to crack either and the Stormraven has no weak side, even hovering.

Martel732 wrote:
You bring a list, and then draw an opponent from a hat basically. Usually there are 8-12 people. You can't change your list after you draw.

Scatterbikes are going to be generally ineffective against an AV12 flyer, Wraithknights with Guide are bad news but lack Interceptor or Ignore Cover. That's one of your major issues solved already. If you can stick 3-4W with the Stormravens, it's not impossible to kill the WK before it strikes with Dante and Astorath.

Greentide is interesting. 10x Tacs have mediocre output but gain CC potential due to their size. Can IC's change the equation? Challenges remove the Nob. A Priest with FNP and Crown Angelic will blunt damage. Dante will let you H&R out of combat to shuttle your ICs into a fresh squad. Stormravens can simply hang back and hover to contribute as AV12 gun platforms.

Gladius is going to suck but Krak Grenades, FC, and various ICs should wreck the army. Same idea as Greentide, gun down Rhinos with hovering AV12 and PotMS, use your beatstick ICs to eliminate Marines, soak wounds with FNP tacticals, shuttle the ICs into fresh squads when appropriate.

Scout tax and Damocles eat up 185pts, it's sensible to keep the charge from DS available so add a Command Squad and Angel's Wing.

So it would look like this:
- Angel's Fury (3x SR, 3x 10 Tacs)
- Damocles Rhino
- Sang Priest (Veritas Vitae, Crown Angelic, Angel's Wing, MB)
- Astorath
- Command Squad, Jump Packs, 2x SS
- 2x Scouts
- Dante

It's going to be a very interesting fight against that Tau list above. It really comes down to geometry and dice. If the Stormravens can set up a solid charge and lock most of the Tau units, BA has a very real opportunity to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Stormravens aren't a viable unit in general, so this discussion segment is largely moot. You don't need AA against most lists, which means it doesn't go into a generalist list.

Let me know what's viable for BA against that Tau list!


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 16:45:00


Post by: Martel732


I honestly don't know. SRs are just so expensive...


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 16:51:19


Post by: Yoyoyo


Ah you mean prices in real life?

I feel that brother. That's why I prefer theorycrafting


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 17:34:26


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
Ah you mean prices in real life?

I feel that brother. That's why I prefer theorycrafting


I mean both, really.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 17:54:38


Post by: Jancoran


Never attempt to JUSTIFY a hobby and it's price. it cannot be done. Accept that it will be an expensive brand of fun and key in on the the word fun.

I know Martel is doing some kind of GW strike and not buying anything from them but there's EBay which is your friend and other sources.

But there will never be a justification for what I have done to my garage. It is senseless to even try to explain that to anyone else.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 18:15:10


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Yoyoyo wrote:
Ah you mean prices in real life?

I feel that brother. That's why I prefer theorycrafting

The RL price is...kinda up there. Points-wise it IS too expensive. You talked about its near immunity to Scatterbikes, but do Scatterbikes actually need to target it? After all, they don't carry a lot of firepower for the points, and as transports they aren't great, seeing that anything potentially assaulting Scatterbikes won't do it until around T3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
Never attempt to JUSTIFY a hobby and it's price. it cannot be done. Accept that it will be an expensive brand of fun and key in on the the word fun.

I know Martel is doing some kind of GW strike and not buying anything from them but there's EBay which is your friend and other sources.

But there will never be a justification for what I have done to my garage. It is senseless to even try to explain that to anyone else.

This is one of the only things you've said that was correct.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 18:18:56


Post by: Martel732


I ignore GK SRs for entire games, so I'm sure Eldar can do the same to BA SRs. SRs just can't do enough damage.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 18:58:22


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
I ignore GK SRs for entire games, so I'm sure Eldar can do the same to BA SRs. SRs just can't do enough damage.


Well I guess you'll find out, won't you?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 18:58:39


Post by: Yoyoyo


SR are not there for shooting output. They are for :

1) null deployment potential (the formation enters on T1)
2) transporting Teleport Homers into position for zero scatter, charge from Deepstrike (Augur Triangulation)
3) force protection (the Obsec Tacs inside cannot be targeted)
4) as assault vehicles (10x Tacs with attached ICs as necessary).

The idea is nothing will be targeted effectively. That means you get into CC without suffering from the kind of massive attrition that Martel complains about. SR shooting is poor, but that's not why I'm exploring them. You don't have to win every game by shooting, and in the case of Riptides, it's the least effective solution to pursue.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:02:39


Post by: Jancoran


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


This is one of the only things you've said that was correct.


Sure, man. Sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
SR are not there for shooting output. They are for :

1) null deployment potential (the formation enters on T1)
2) transporting Teleport Homers into position for zero scatter, charge from Deepstrike (Augur Triangulation)
3) force protection (the Obsec Tacs inside cannot be targeted)
4) as assault vehicles (10x Tacs with attached ICs as necessary).

The idea is nothing will be targeted effectively. That means you get into CC without suffering from the kind of massive attrition that Martel complains about. SR shooting is poor, but that's not why I'm exploring them. You don't have to win every game by shooting, and in the case of Riptides, it's the least effective solution to pursue.


Quoted for truth


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:06:30


Post by: Yoyoyo


There's other options. Smoke Launcher and Lucius Drop Pod can give an AV13/12/12 Furioso a 3+ cover save. Not cool for Tau.

Think about survivability and deployment, not just how many plasma or Grav guns you can cram into a list.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:14:47


Post by: Martel732


Yoyoyo wrote:
There's other options. Smoke Launcher and Lucius Drop Pod can give an AV13/12/12 Furioso a 3+ cover save. Not cool for Tau.

Think about survivability and deployment, not just how many plasma or Grav guns you can cram into a list.


Not cool for Tau until they remove the cover. I guess it contributes to marker light depletion. That never seems to work, though. There's always another marker light for these guys.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:17:47


Post by: Jancoran


Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:20:48


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.


You can't saturate Tau in my experience. At least, not with BA. Too many overcosted units. They have the firepower to remove 1200 pts of BA in a single turn of shooting, leaving 600 pts left to take on everything.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:28:26


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.


You can't saturate Tau in my experience.


Ironically i showed you how to saturate with them. So they really can, Martel. They really can. If my Night Lords can, you certainly can.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:29:39


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.


You can't saturate Tau in my experience.


Ironically i showed you how to saturate with them. So they really can, Martel. They really can. If my Night Lords can, you certainly can.


No, I really don't think so. BA have nothing as efficient as chaos spawn or mutilators to do your particular scheme. Furiosos really can't do what you think they can in 7th ed. HPs have ruined them. And that list you suggested was way over on points, so it wouldn't even have the models you listed.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:34:44


Post by: Jancoran


OK. I think this thread is good to go now.



Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:37:51


Post by: Martel732


 Jancoran wrote:
OK. I think this thread is good to go now.



Is your ego so huge that you can't handle it when someone questions a list you post for an army you don't even play?


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:39:42


Post by: Arson Fire


I wouldn't write off storm ravens.
I regularly face a BA player who commonly brings 3 of them. They are pretty damn terrifying to deal with, particularly for my tyranids. Possibly just because we lack any reliable means of dealing with them.

They've got the firepower to deal with multiple flying hive tyrants on the turn they arrive. Surviving tyrants struggle to damage them back (and tyrants are about the only way nids can damage them anyway). Any ground based monstrous creature gets curbstomped by a librarian dreadnaught with force weapons charging out of a stormraven next turn.

Commonly combined with dropping lucius pods full of fragnaughts in front of any ground-based threat. The dreadnaughts sit inside the pods for an extra 3 hullpoints while firing out, then can assault out of the pods next turn.

Most tyranid monstrous creatures really don't want to be in close combat with a dreadnaught. Riptides are the same.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:43:32


Post by: Martel732


Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:43:41


Post by: Jancoran


Martel732 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
OK. I think this thread is good to go now.



Is your ego so huge that you can't handle it when someone questions a list you post for an army you don't even play?


Newp.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:53:39


Post by: Yoyoyo


Martel732 wrote:
Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.

Lib Dreadnought has Instant Death at S10 AP2 through Force and can buff initiative with Quickening, that's not exactly trivial.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:53:46


Post by: Arson Fire


Martel732 wrote:
Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.


S6 attacks mean nothing to an AV13 dreadnaught. So you're forced to smash. Giving you a single attack (50% chance to miss!) on something with 3 hullpoints. Meanwhile it's hitting you back with multiple attacks, hitting you on 3+ and wounding on 2's.
Trust me. No tyranid MC wants to be anywhere near them.


The stormravens can't be ignored. They have enough firepower between them to focus down pretty much any unit, and be just about anywhere they want offloading units.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:56:29


Post by: Martel732


Arson Fire wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.


S6 attacks mean nothing to an AV13 dreadnaught. So you're forced to smash. Giving you a single attack (50% chance to miss!) on something with 3 hullpoints. Meanwhile it's hitting you back with multiple attacks, hitting you on 3+ and wounding on 2's.
Trust me. No tyranid MC wants to be anywhere near them.


MCs get two penetration dice. MC USR ftw. Dreads don't want to be anywhere near MCs. Any MC. Trust me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arson Fire wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.


S6 attacks mean nothing to an AV13 dreadnaught. So you're forced to smash. Giving you a single attack (50% chance to miss!) on something with 3 hullpoints. Meanwhile it's hitting you back with multiple attacks, hitting you on 3+ and wounding on 2's.
Trust me. No tyranid MC wants to be anywhere near them.


The stormravens can't be ignored. They have enough firepower between them to focus down pretty much any unit, and be just about anywhere they want offloading units.


Yeah, they can. I do it all the time. They are overcosted flyers. My record against GK lists is proportional with how many points they waste on SRs.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 19:59:59


Post by: Arson Fire


Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 20:04:55


Post by: Yoyoyo


Armies are not simply the sum of their parts... that's the problem with just talking about units in a vacuum.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 20:36:13


Post by: Martel732


Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.


My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 20:42:09


Post by: Kanluwen


Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

Warhammer 40,000: The Rules p171 wrote:
SMASH
All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath attacks, of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2 (unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon). Additionally, when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose instead to make a single Smash Attack. If it does so, roll To Hit as normal, but resolve the attack at double the model's Strength (to a maximum of 10). Furthermore, a model making a Smash Attack can re-roll its armour penetration rolls, but must abide by the second result.


Just so we have the whole rule in play. MCs/GMCs are ALWAYS AP2 in close combat, unless they have an AP1 weapon or are making a HoW attack.

Martel, you might not have been cheated but rather been fighting one of the FW variant Carnifexes. I believe that one of them has the Armourbane special rule for its CCW.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 21:18:51


Post by: Arson Fire


Martel732 wrote:
My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.


That's all good.
I don't think MCs have had native 2d6 armour pen since 5th edition.
However in 6th smash was quite a lot stronger. You just halved your attacks (rounding up, and still getting charge bonuses on top), giving MCs enough S10 attacks to wreck most things.
It's only in 7th with the nerf to smash that they've started having a much harder time with vehicles.




 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel, you might not have been cheated but rather been fighting one of the FW variant Carnifexes. I believe that one of them has the Armourbane special rule for its CCW.


Tyranids don't need to go to forgeworld to get armourbane.
But you can only put it on tervigons (where it mainly just discourages dreads from charging the gaunt-pooper), or carnifexes (which are the one thing that doesn't really need it).

Haruspexes also come with it, but those are kinda terrible and no one ever takes them.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/13 21:20:13


Post by: Byte


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Byte wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?


Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)


I was simply answering a question. I could have easily just as said FSC with velocity tracking HYMP Missilesides. I don't usually bother to much with marker lights. TL'd volume of fire works just fine.

About the Missilehead, BS4, 4 TL'd str 7 that can choose to shoot ground and air targets at full BS. How is AV12 safe?


Because S7, even with great accuracy, does not get passed AV12 all that often. a missilehead shooting at AV12 flyer will average out 0.59 glances and 0.59 pens. that's not enough to down your average plane. and given the lack of interceptor, the plane has a chance to shoot first, and many planes carry anti-tank guns that will force the hammer to jink, greatly reducing his threat.
Naturally the 3 hammers WILL take down a raven if it won't jink, but 3 hammers also cost far more than a single raven they cost almost like two. and he will have the first shot, and between its multimelta, missiles and lascannon, it will force a jink, and perhaps take one down anyway. so they are having a decent standoff where either may win. by unlike the hammer, the raven is not a dedicated shooter, but a transport with guns.
It not useless by all means, but its not exactly a hard counter.

The FSC with VT on its suits is all around is far more threatening, but has its own issues (less mobile so getting clear off it's range is easier, and the broadsides are FAR easier to remove, especially by aircraft)
For pure AA usage, I'd also consider the new Air Superiority Cadre. its surprisingly good given how lackluster razorsharks are. you will almost always catch rear shots with it when relevant, and skywatch almost assures you will have the drop on him in perfect timing.

 Byte wrote:
I use all variants of Hammerheads. I fav is the 2 long barreled burst cannon BS4, Str5, ap5, hvy12 36". I usually take those in 3s with the skyray.

Heres a 1850 list I use when I'm feeling grumpy.

AIC- LBBCheadsx3, skyray VT
FSC- H burst cannon-tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
FSC- H burst cannon tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
Riptidewing- Ion-tidesx3, EWO, VT

That's a 1850 list comes in at 1810.
For 2000, I reduce some VT and add a Drone net. (scoring and marking)

I only use this when I play good sports. I would never play a pick up game with this and my local events don't usually allow multiple detachments.


Heh. cute list.
More than enough AA, a lot of anti-interceptor, good shot count for hordes between dakkaheads, dakkatides and broadsides, and you army consists of mostly hard targets.
Dakkaheads are amusing. I keep trying to find chances to use them just for the "HUH?!" effect, especially with the overwatch upgrade.


Well, tearing this list apart....
No real marker support, so any cover save (ab)user is going to work well, and your dakkatides cant aim well.
Little in terms of heavy duty anti-tank means high AV is also a big concern.
No stims on riptides means every NOVA you make is a risk, and the HBCtides won't be nearly as threatening (BS3, no

Depending on my list, the "soft spots" for me to attack will be either:
The FSCs-broadsides are not that hard to kill, HBCtide too dependant on his NOVA to deal damage, so they will hurt themselves a bit.
The AIC-some anti tank guns should fix these, or at least force jink saves-and while jinked, the threat is reduced. can't trust on deepstrikers though, so my long guns/fast assault will have to do. (depending what army I'm playing)

The ripwing, I'll probably choose to just avoid and take cover until I take down the rest. they don't do too much damage without marker support.

Also, if I have any AV14-you are in trouble. your only real answer is the dakkatides, and they are not exactly the go-to solution here. even hen NOVA is active and tank hunter, without marks you are looking at 1 damage result, MAYBE 2.


This list might do fine in a competitive scene, but I suspect the lack of markerlights will hold it back.
I'd be glad to face it. will probably lose my first attempt as I am heavy into deepstrike with my tau-but I believe my "dream renegades" list will win with relative ease, had I had the models.


Cute list? Smug much? Seems you have a very high opinion of your game. Good for you I guess. You got it all figured out.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/14 03:02:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


I know Blood Angels are in a gak spot, but I didn't realize Martel was being cheated against either.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/14 03:21:02


Post by: Martel732


It's actually been a while since I closely paid attention to the dice that MCs were throwing against vehicles/walkers. It's not like the Eldar ever have to assault a furioso. It's partially my fault for assuming MCs murder everything they touch without trying hard.


Riptide status @ 2016/02/14 06:24:34


Post by: BoomWolf


 Byte wrote:
-snip-
Cute list? Smug much? Seems you have a very high opinion of your game. Good for you I guess. You got it all figured out.


"Cute list" is a praise, not an insult-at least from the way of speaking in my area. maybe it sounds differently when written over the internet.
What I was practically saying (and wrote clearly in the end of the post), is that its a pretty darn solid list. it has a few weaknesses I pointed out-but its strong.


Martel732 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.


My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.


Now I have having a dreaded suspicion.
Martel, this MC rules are not around from the days of 5th. MC smashing also reduces to 1 attack in 7th. (and 7th is around for quite a while)

What are the odds that many of the things that we suggested and you outright called to not work, were because you are using a mash of old and new rules that greatly reduce their effectiveness?