Many of you may have seen the recent thread reporting on the efforts of PP to restrict the discounting that online stores have done previously. Rather then rehash that discussion (which is currently still being hashed in the above thread), let me propose a different question to the fine folks of Dakka;
Does PP make miniatures that are worth buying at MSRP?
This thought came to me a few days ago when I first saw that PP was going to try and kill the deep discounting of the game, and I realized... I didn't really care that much, because none of their models seem worth buying to me anymore. Let me distinguish this from their rules: I think that PP still puts out a tight and interesting competitive rule set, but...
But: it is my opinion that PP's Warmachine and Hordes lines suffer from an overabundance of older and dated sculpts. While there has been a noticeable increase in quality and sculpting aesthetics have developed in some areas, this has been most noticeable and significant in the areas of characters, rather then units.
Spoiler:
Tracking the evolution of a character sculpt;
But while many newer solos and characters have been substantially improved, many of the basic units that form the bulk of the models of a force are either old, cast in less preferred materials such as PVC, or both.
Spoiler:
Even among units that are of better sculpt (better, not necessarily good) often suffer from being hard to put together. I've delayed buying the Nyss Hunter unit, despite it being a great unit, because the unit is both not exceptionally well sculpted, and notoriously difficult to assemble.
Spoiler:
So, all of those factors add up (for me) to one conclusion: most of PP's product is not worth buying at MSRP. There are, of course, some exceptions as they push into HIPS, but a huge number of basic units are out of date and overpriced.
This, of course, means that PP's recent policy that seems to have cut out the discounters leaves people that believe as I do less concerned with where to get more stuff, but priced out of the game. I'm simply unwilling, for example, to pay $100+ for a colossal when I could get something like the Kingdom Death Dragon King expansion, which features a gigantic dragon, multiple 32mm models with tons of weapon options, plus cards and illustrated manuals, all in HIPS, for $150 (eventual retail pricing). In my opinion, PP has simply fallen so far behind the curve that their current pricing becomes almost laughable. What makes this even more perplexing is that they seem to have no urgency about updating their aging lines or materials.
Since my FLGS offers me 20% off everything in the store and has sales throughout the year of 30% off everything I can't really complain. They also hand out 30% off coupons when you enter an event. Plus eBay is always an option to people looking for deep discounts. So no I'm not effected
I am kind of torn because I love the game and want to keep playing it but I'm not sure if it figures are worth full retail. My local store offers barely any discount at all, and has hardly any stock. The one about an hour away has a huge amount of stock and offers a 20% discount so with sales tax it's about 13% which is not bad but I'm undecided right now. Their new policy has definitely left a sour taste in my mouth but I am not sure yet but the end result will be since I do still want to play.
I will put it this way I have been sorely tempted to go back to GW over this if that doesn't say something I don't know what will
I often found their stuff hard to justify at the discount price. MSRP is a joke.
I'm done with buying anything from them once I receive my Widower's Wood stuff (which I'll be using for KoW). Funny how they themselves had no problem using an online avenue to sell minis on the cheap directly to gamers and cut out the middle men.
Honestly, kinda yeah. I wouldnt pay retail for their stuff, I dont even really wanna pay 20% off at my local store... 25%-30% just feels more right for what im getting.
No it's not worth it. However none of the current top companies produce products that are worth the price in my opinion. I had supported PP since the beginning but I have been disenchanted with the company and game for a while now. I love Sci-fi/Fantasy gaming, but I am leaving it more and more for historical gaming. It's way cheaper and most rulesets for it aren't revamped constantly.
For me it boils down to the fact that I'm not going to pay GW prices for models that aren't as good. The 'restic' or whatever it is does not hold detail well and the kits are not nearly as modular or convertible as GW's. Add in the fact that a decent chunk of GW's line I wouldn't buy at MSRP anyway, and there's simply not much of PPs models I would buy short of a clearance-level discount. Though fwiwPP's army boxes are very well-priced for what you get.
Those are some bad examples - obviously the units that are 8-10 years old are going to look crappy compared to the new stuff (and the blighted elves for Legion you show just did get a nice new plastic kit that looks loads better).
But, to answer your question - no - some of it isn't. The new HIPS stuff is great, and cheap. And the PVC stuff has gotten a lot better with newer kits, but stuff from even 2-3 years ago can be pretty frustrating to work with (they generally clean up nice enough - but they take 3x as long to clean and de-mold line as they should) and isn't worth MSRP IMO (which, I've never set foot in a FLGS that offered even a slight discount).
They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).
I'm pretty annoyed by the whole thing now that MM reduced their discount - as that was where I have purchased practically every WM mini I own.
I will definitely be scaling back on stuff now. I was waiting for a decent sale to buy-in to P3 paints to (as in, buy the whole range) as I really like the few jars of it I have.
Not at all, I'm perfectly happy with their prices. But them I am an Aussie so the measuring stick that GW set down over the last decade or two is totally absurd.
I'm also loving the quality of the recent releases in the on sprue plastic and resin-metal hybrid kits.
I don't like a lot of the older models, so they aren't worth it at any price to me. The newer models I think generally are awesome, even the newer PVC stuff is nowhere near as bad as it was, and the increase in HIPS stuff is great imo, and generally I find them to be worth it.
Very hard to say, expecially as the aesthetic of most of their stuff doesn't interest m(e much bar the odd character model or colossal
certainly the convergance stuff that did interest me when it first appeared was pretty woeful quality wise and pretty much put me off trying anything else from them
I do think an effective 20% price rise (30% online discount falling to about 10%) is not going to do them any favours but I think people who like the game will keep buying but it will put off new potential players and painter/collectors
'Price per mini' isn't one of my top concerns when I'm investing in a game - in-game-value, game balance and lore trump both, and privateer press are good at both of these in my opinion.
Schmapdi wrote: They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).
Hang on - when did using metal become a bad thing?
I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the Primecast podcasts (when I was listening to it) that their intent was to use the material to produce a figure that they felt was the best-suited for the design, whether than be metal, resin, PVC or HIPs - or a composite of pieces from multiple materials.
They never priced themselves in to my market. I don't know why, I've just never liked PP's offerings enough to actually collect a force. There's a few good models here and there I guess, nothing good enough to get me to buy them when I don't play the game.
I'm curious why this is coming up now actually, I recently picked up a HIP grolar which was SO MUCH better quality than any other Khador jack I ever had, for exactly the same price.
Plastic colossals are coming, and I fully expect those to be cheaper than the resin ones.
Yes some of the recent warcasters and solos like Durst and the Haley trio have had decent price tags on them, but they are bigger than you standard 28mm model (or three of them -_-) and the resin is excelent quality on them.
As I said in my last post though, it really just comes down to the fact that my measuring stick is GW models. The old character are still $30 in plastic, and the new ones fething $50.
I will take a $30 PP resin/metal over a $50 GW plastic any day. Same way I'd take a $56 PP plastic over a.. what's a dreadnought these days? $70+ Aud?
The issue for PP isn't price, imo (although they are expensive per model). The bigger issue is sculpt and material quality for the price, along with game balance. There's been some pushback about their OTT tier lists lately, and they've made adjustments, but with many tier lists being blatant "buy more X unit", they definitely hurt themselves.
This is my main game but honestly I'd love to see a Mk3 reboot. Likely not happening... but yeah, I don't think model price alone is their problem (model count, maybe - but not price).
I've considered getting g into it from time to time. Price was already borderline for me even with the mm discount. Without it they'll never see a penny. Some of the models are decent enough but no entire faction draws me I worth the cost of admission.
I've been on a self imposed buying freeze (for painting backlog/storage reasons), but I'm finding the new plastic multi kits hard to resist. They still do some excellent characters in metal, and I have a real hard time resisting a lot of those.
Hell, some of the new Protectorate solos/warcasters are on my buy list, and I don't even play them!
Some of the line is dated, but you see that in a lot of games. Infinity, like PP, has been updating sculpts for years. I doubt it'll be too long before the last vestiges of ugly metal units fade into oblivion.
Then again, maybe me not playing at the competitive level anymore means that not having to have all the units to have new, meta shifting options means I'm less susceptible to the prices these days.
Stock is hard to get, they are expensive and not particularly
inspiring sculpts with a few exceptions (the goat lady and the winged dragon lady are cool)
I dont like the game nor the amount of minis required. They make GW look normally priced!
I bought some over the last few years either as job lots via Dakka swap shop, or those with Mk1 blisters (and card) from retailers and knockdown prices. All that has dried up though.
The Mk1 blisters were especially welcome as you could get all uyou needed for therm wirth one Mk2 card deck. I expanded my stock considerably through this.
This is not my bef with PP though. In many ways they are worse than GW, and get away with it bcause their name is not GW.
First you get the page 5 bullcrap tied in with the fullm metal miniaturtes spin spun again and again, then they went to rsin like everyone else. That was PP just being annoying, so I forgave them.
What I dont forgive is that to play a special character you must have the miniature. Gw are far more reaaonable, sure they wont want you to use Asphixious as your Vampire Counts master necrtomancer, but if you take a GW empire wizard model (the celestial wizard model is fine here) paint him black and use him they are happy. You can even use gaspy if you like so long as he is modelled with some citadel miniatures parts.
However in PP's eyes it you model chains on a berserker you have a berserker with chains, you don't have Drago, and you cant use him as Drago unless you buy the Drago miniature *till-ching* who costs a lot more than a regular berserker.
Now they are outdoing GW on online sales, GW at least had an excuse, they employ workers in their own shopfronts and want to protect that business. PP just doesn't want the community driving the price of their miniatures down. Because if a Warmahordes model is not worth the retail price it is not worth that price, it's worth a lower price and the retail recommended price is a de facto mark up rather than the actual price.
Orlanth wrote: However in PP's eyes it you model chains on a berserker you have a berserker with chains, you don't have Drago, and you cant use him as Drago unless you buy the Drago miniature *till-ching* who costs a lot more than a regular berserker.
Two axes and chains should make a legal drogo, it's more than 50% PP model, it has the iconic parts of drogo (the only thing that makes him different is the chains really), and doesn't infringe anyone else's copywrites.
The above is only relevant if you are playing in a sanctioned PP Steamroller event. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from converting stuff and buying the card separately or using War Room. I have plenty of converted minis for my WMH armies and no one has ever kicked up a fuss.
Orlanth wrote: What I dont forgive is that to play a special character you must have the miniature. Gw are far more reaaonable, sure they wont want you to use Asphixious as your Vampire Counts master necrtomancer, but if you take a GW empire wizard model (the celestial wizard model is fine here) paint him black and use him they are happy. You can even use gaspy if you like so long as he is modelled with some citadel miniatures parts.
However in PP's eyes it you model chains on a berserker you have a berserker with chains, you don't have Drago, and you cant use him as Drago unless you buy the Drago miniature *till-ching* who costs a lot more than a regular berserker.
I have to respectfully disagree with this: PP's conversion rules are in place to provide a level of expectation for players entering the game and more importantly, set a benchmark for what to expect in organized, competitive play and to prevent confusion. There is a clause (bolded even) that states that the event organizer has the right to make exceptions. In the case of your example, a berserker with chains may not obviously be identified as Drago. It could just as easily be a "fancy" Berserker with chains (Proxies are still disallowed in the conversion rules). I did exactly this conversion (Berserker to Drago), swapped weapons, gave him a different head and bought the skull/chain thingy. It has never been rejected by organizers as an inappropriate stand-in for Drago.
Spoiler:
Getting back on topic. I feel that if one is playing and enjoying the game, PP prices haven't gotten out of control, though I feel that on some (not all) of the new releases, they are getting there. MSRP for Ruin is $85 Cdn after conversion. Dhunian Knot is $45 Cdn after conversion. I can buy a crap-ton of Infinity for that. As I don't play the game anymore, I feel that straight MSRP is too much to pay for painting projects, though I'd be happy to buy at 20-30% off. I have such a huge backlog that I'm not really bothered one way or another. From an entry level perspective, the all in one army boxes and the fact that rules are now free have opened up budgetary space for new players. Paying less than $200 for a strong starting army right out of the gate is a fantastic thing, and something that GW can not match, even with PP prices creeping up. I am not going to comment on PP's hard line with distributors, only that maintenance and protectionism of the independent retailers as recruitment and promotional tools is clearly identified as being more important that pissing off veterans in the short term. I'm sure this is not a decision that PP took lightly.
Grimtuff wrote: @Keezus -Is that an upside down Renegade head there?
Good eye. It is an upside down Mangler head. -edit- It's actually not upside down. The top of the mangler's head is conveniently hidden by the Berserker's cowl.
Grimtuff wrote: @Keezus -Is that an upside down Renegade head there?
Good eye. It is an upside down Mangler head. -edit- It's actually not upside down. The top of the mangler's head is conveniently hidden by the Berserker's cowl.
You're too quick! I corrected myself after I posted.
I've got a spare Renegade head kicking around (one of mine has Ol Rowdy's head in a big middle finger to those electric swans ) and thought my Drago could use a face upgrade, though that would piss him off immensely.
IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse. Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this. I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.
So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.
Orlanth wrote: However in PP's eyes it you model chains on a berserker you have a berserker with chains, you don't have Drago, and you cant use him as Drago unless you buy the Drago miniature *till-ching* who costs a lot more than a regular berserker.
Two axes and chains should make a legal drogo, it's more than 50% PP model, it has the iconic parts of drogo (the only thing that makes him different is the chains really), and doesn't infringe anyone else's copywrites.
Iron_Captain wrote: IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.
So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.
YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?
Iron_Captain wrote: IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.
So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.
YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?
I think that's something that needs to be understood. The Rifle Corp box is 10 for €40, while the regular Winter Guard box is 13 for €33. In most Khador lists, you'll be taking a single unit, and the regular Winter Guard will probably always have the UA attached. Meanwhile, the €25 Tactical Squad box comes with the expectation that you'll buy 2-4 total.
Iron_Captain wrote: IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.
So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.
YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?
I had two metal large unit blisters of six temple Flameguard, and converted two into the UA. Did the same with Winterguard, even lower way back, but slightly differently, there was no UA when I did the conversion, a decade ago now, it just seemed right to me that one guy in the squad carried a big red flag. It got confusing later though.
Yeah they're overpriced. Have been forever. Don't buy the whole "it's X% of your army compared to Y%!"
I compare models based on their sculpt, size and material. PP models are overpriced compared to everything except GW, and priced on a par with GW while having inferior materials for many sculpts.
If I had a vibrant community to play with, the price wouldn't matter. But I buy models mostly for myself these days with little prospect of getting a game in, so that "community premium" is no longer worth it to me.
I have to say the materials of the minis is a big, big deal for me now too.
Iron_Captain wrote: IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.
So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.
YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?
It depends on the point values you play on.
But I judge a model's worth based on the model itself, not on its points value in the game. Otherwise I would play with cardboard tokens. Exact the same points value, only 1% of the costs.
I'm priced out of ever starting a new army but the pace of updates is slow enough that I sometimes buy a few new releases a year to update my existing forces.
That said I think I spent $40 on PP in the last year so i have not been keeping up with the releases.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah they're overpriced. Have been forever. Don't buy the whole "it's X% of your army compared to Y%!"
I compare models based on their sculpt, size and material
That's fair if you're buying models to paint, but if you're attempting to compare the cost of getting into a game then it is perhaps the most fair metric to do so.
If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?
As to the OP, I've been looking for several years to find a faction who's models grabbed me sufficiently to buy in. It hasn't happened yet, but should it happen in the future, I doubt the odd few % missing on the discount would discourage me, I'd shop around for the best deal just as I would now.
Azreal13 wrote: If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?
If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?
Uhm...what kind of game would that be, with only a single miniature?
Azreal13 wrote: If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?
No, it doesn't.
Let's take the witticisms and subjectivity out of the responses, this is hypothetical, so kindly treat it as such, but if there was a game you could play competitively, enjoyed playing and cost around £30, in relation to the typical buy in for that level of participation currently, you'd consider it poor value, even if what was included was quite expensive in terms of what the constituent raw materials cost if bought for other games?
I'm sorry, I'm not buying that reasoning at all.
I've been around people and gamers long enough to know that the response would be "ok, it's a lot for X, but that's all I need to buy and the game is really good fun!"
Recently, I started buying GW models to make warmachine units (Black Knights/Hexwraiths to make a unit of bane riders, Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn to make a unit of Raptors, a box of ten VC skeletons to make Bane Knights, adding some GW bits - Warriors of Chaos halberds) and in doing so saved A TON of cash, which in Portugal's current economy is kind of a big deal. I think this says it all really.
P.S.: I don't play at tournaments or any other form of organized play, just not my thing. Also, the release of huge based models didn't sit well with me, estranging me more and more from the game.
A lot of ancilliary feature make up the value and whether it is worth the price.
Take Battletech for instance, people pay a lot for original miniatures, and even more if they are unseen. The per unit price for the current range from Iron Wind Metals is also very high for a miniature standing about as tall as a space marine because the players buy individual miniatures from a vast range.
No one really complains about the price even though on a per unit basis is makes PP seem cheap.
Hawk Wargames also knows how to charge people for DZC it's not a cheap game either to buy an army or on a per model basis, but people like the companies attitude so the price matters less.
Games Workshop has lower prices than PP but generates more hate than any other miniature company out there. Bootleggers of GW miniatures are treated like folk heroes, while bootlegging anyone elses miniatures would induce nerdrage.
So what about PP and their prices? People tend to forgive them as a company because they get the rules right and don't bullcrap the customers over army books. It buys them a lot of good will, and the models are sold in useful sized packets for an enjoyable game. But the price is creeping up and up now, and the range is expanding so investment levels to keep in the game are raising and the bubble is beginning to burst now they are starting to be dicks on pricing. All this may have a lot more bearing on the sub-concious tolerance of the companies prices.
The business of value isnt rational, it's subjective, and who you are buying the models from and whether you like the producers ethos has as much to do with whether the purchase is good for you as the price and product.
For what it's alternately work I will probably still play because the rules are that good. But I can't help but feel the same kind of unease I felt some 15 years ago when GW first had their new online policy.
I have dallied around with Warmahordes for years now, being prevented by a couple of things:
No single line captures my interest fully. There are sculpts I love in several ranges but then a number of others I cannot stand and I'm told that to use X I must take Y or lose the game.
Repeats in units. I hate repeated models in units. Even playing WHFB as a young boy, I would convert and adjust to ensure no repetition, then PP wants top dollar for a unit of 10 minis where there are only 4 sculpts... Newp.
Now with GW coming in from the cold again... My interest in 30k growing and change on the horizon for 40k... I can spend on 'premium' models that I'll actually like the look of.
Azreal13 wrote: If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?
No, it doesn't.
Let's take the witticisms and subjectivity out of the responses, this is hypothetical, so kindly treat it as such, but if there was a game you could play competitively, enjoyed playing and cost around £30, in relation to the typical buy in for that level of participation currently, you'd consider it poor value, even if what was included was quite expensive in terms of what the constituent raw materials cost if bought for other games?
I'm sorry, I'm not buying that reasoning at all.
It remains unacceptably expensive because a single 30mm scale infantry model is incapable of adding value to the game in proportion to that cost. I could buy an argument that a fireteam-level skirmish game is best played with 3 3/4" action figures and not 28mm miniatures, or that a game where each player controls their own mech is more fun with big, articulated toys and not 1" tall miniatures, but I don't believe that a game that charges 30 pounds for a single 30mm miniature would be ten times less fun if I substituted it for a more reasonably priced alternative.
Schmapdi wrote: They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).
Hang on - when did using metal become a bad thing?
I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the Primecast podcasts (when I was listening to it) that their intent was to use the material to produce a figure that they felt was the best-suited for the design, whether than be metal, resin, PVC or HIPs - or a composite of pieces from multiple materials.
For non-character models? About a decade ago.
And the thing about your latter part is that GW and Wyrd and KD have shown that HIPS is pretty much always best-suited for the design nowadays. I picked up the new plastic Grolar (from Miniature Market of course) and it is fantastic, and it went together fast and looks great. There's no reason units or warbeasts or anything really can't be done in HIPS anymore, except PP doesn't want to shell out for molds when they can make them in PVC that nobody likes, or metal which is way outdated.
All SF/Fantasy figures are to some degree overpriced, because you are paying for the hopefully unique design that can't be found anywhere else and also because GW have legitimised the expectation that SF/Fantasy figures should be expensive compared to historicals.
In reality, there are quite a few options for lots of different rank and file type of SF/F figures. It's the unique special units that are harder to substitute.
In either case, the value for money of the unit is partly a matter of aesthetic appeal, which is a personal thing.
I am pretty much priced out of PP models now, except for a few that I really want or need to have for tournaments. My plan now is to just have 2 tournament lists that cover most everything and run those with official models (I have a large collection all purchased from MM for the most part) and anything I don't already have I will scratch build or use other stuff for that I like better.
Prime example for me is the UA for the Wolves of Orboros. Mediocre unit to begin with, and dropping 18$ MSRP for 2 models to add to the unit is a rough pill to swallow. I actually had 2 of the buggers in my MM cart (for Grayle's theme force) but when the price increase happened I sighed and deleted them. I am buying a Hail Caesar starter set instead, and will use some other models for the UA. Good thing my local group likes a good proxy
Azreal13 wrote: If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?
No, it doesn't.
Let's take the witticisms and subjectivity out of the responses, this is hypothetical, so kindly treat it as such, but if there was a game you could play competitively, enjoyed playing and cost around £30, in relation to the typical buy in for that level of participation currently, you'd consider it poor value, even if what was included was quite expensive in terms of what the constituent raw materials cost if bought for other games?
I'm sorry, I'm not buying that reasoning at all.
It remains unacceptably expensive because a single 30mm scale infantry model is incapable of adding value to the game in proportion to that cost. I could buy an argument that a fireteam-level skirmish game is best played with 3 3/4" action figures and not 28mm miniatures, or that a game where each player controls their own mech is more fun with big, articulated toys and not 1" tall miniatures, but I don't believe that a game that charges 30 pounds for a single 30mm miniature would be ten times less fun if I substituted it for a more reasonably priced alternative.
Fine, use that as the hypothetical bench mark if you like. You're trying to pick holes in my example while missing the point I was making, that using a price per model metric to judge the cost of a game is futile, and you're much better off taking a holistic view when considering games
If you're declaring "I wish to paint a unit of 10 models, I am system and material agnostic and have no intention of ever gaming with them" then price per model is much more relevant.
Azreal13 wrote: If you're declaring "I wish to paint a unit of 10 models, I am system and material agnostic and have no intention of ever gaming with them" then price per model is much more relevant.
Even in that case I'd suggest price per model is pretty low on the list, subject material and quality would be the big ones.
I agree price per model is a flawed view point. The cost of making the models themselves is small compared to actually getting the models in to the hands of gamers. So if a game A requires 100 models to play and game B requires 20 models, even given the same quality game A should be cheaper per model because because they're likely selling them in boxes of 20 which don't cost much more to make than game B who might be selling them in boxes of 5.
PP has mostly just failed to make models I care about, that's far important to me than price. I'm not buying a box of Perry Agincourt infantry because they're cheaper per model nor am I buying a Tamiya Mosquito because it's the best quality, they are simply the subject matter that interests me and within that, they are the best models (IMO).
Schmapdi wrote: They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).
Hang on - when did using metal become a bad thing?
I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the Primecast podcasts (when I was listening to it) that their intent was to use the material to produce a figure that they felt was the best-suited for the design, whether than be metal, resin, PVC or HIPs - or a composite of pieces from multiple materials.
For non-character models? About a decade ago.
You really have quite a skewed view there. The market leader, GW were producing units in metal right up until Finecast came about in 2011.
I consider the grey PVC material to be terrible, so yes, the price for what you get is totally out of line.
What I think is really going on with PP's relationship with online sales is that the boom has ended for them. They've had years of growth as people left GW and checked them out and I'm guessing that's largely come to an end. Everyone who used to deal with GW who left for PP has done so. It's easy to not care about discounters making money selling online when you are growing and everything is great and booming, but when that ends and things are flat lining and sales through brick and mortar stores start to drop, it's an easy thing to blame it on one of your sales channels cannibalizing another.
No, I am not. But I don't like seeing prices go up.
We see people that think every game is expencive, And others that are willing to spend a bit more for the experience.
even getting players to buy enough for a mordheim or frost grave warband is tough sometimes. And they only need 2 wizzies for frost grave :( ( I provide everything other for forstgrave)
Some minis I don't think are worth the price, but others I think are great and happy to pay. But I don't think they are at a completely unreasonable price yet, but are in the more premium price range.
I was going to say that I have just stopped buying PP miniatures, but then I realized that it has been years since I last bought any.
So, whether it is price or not, there is at least some reason why I don't buy PP miniatures, whether price, sculpt, or fluff. (The last mini I bought was Nemo...)
The Auld Grump - I have to admit that I like the Trenchers and the light 'Jack that went with them....
Well, I used to sort of see the argument. But nowadays the market has exploded in terms of available, decent quality minis.
So we have access to a huge number of proxies, often competitively priced.
I'm not too bothered about playing with official minis, and if an event won't allow me to play with appropriate proxies (by this I mean proxies where everything is easily identifiable by sight) then I'll just go elsewhere for my games.
So in that enivronment, if someone told me I just needed this one £30 model to play, I'd look for a cheaper proxy or not play the game, since I am a gamer, yeah, but I'm also a collector and painter of minis.
That said, the game does add some value. If I had a vibrant community near me and time to play a lot of games, the value of PP minis would increase a little bit for me.
I don't mind paying for quality either. But I don't find PP's minis to be of more than middling quality. Some standout awesomeness, let down by being in a crappy material.
What I think is really going on with PP's relationship with online sales is that the boom has ended for them. They've had years of growth as people left GW and checked them out and I'm guessing that's largely come to an end. Everyone who used to deal with GW who left for PP has done so. It's easy to not care about discounters making money selling online when you are growing and everything is great and booming, but when that ends and things are flat lining and sales through brick and mortar stores start to drop, it's an easy thing to blame it on one of your sales channels cannibalizing another.
You know, I actually suspect that this is closer to the mark than a lot of people realise.
Another factor is that the top end models for Warmahordes, while impressive dont compare well to top tier GW models.
They dont have anything with as much wowe as a Mortis Engine or ork Stompa. Yet the models they do have are very expensive.
Back at the beginning of Mk2 there was a wide enough range and you could take some uni8ts a couple of jacks and large beasts and a seelction of casters nad make a faction. You still can today, but you feel that to do a faction justice you need to invest a lot more. Like a colossal and more large stuff and different units etc.
All told a Khador collection is as big a task to paint and pay for as Space Marines, and as prices rise the initiation to a faction becomes more of an investment.
Sure entry level is stil low, but people start putting off starting a new faction when they reralise it will cost quite a bit by ther time they have scratched that itch, and decide to buy something else instead. That something else has often been a return to 40K or a move on to Infinity or Mantic.
Yes the bubble has burst and the good times are rolling to their end. PP is by no means doomed, but its got a harder for them recently and will get harder still.
Orlanth wrote: Another factor is that the top end models for Warmahordes, while impressive dont compare well to top tier GW models.
They dont have anything with as much wowe as a Mortis Engine or ork Stompa. Yet the models they do have are very expensive
Respectfully disagree.
Have you seen the Archangel?
Spoiler:
The Sacral Vault?
Spoiler:
Even some of their "lesser" centrepiece models like Ruin.
Spoiler:
or the Hand of Judgement?
Spoiler:
Then we have Iron Mother Directrix, one of the most beautiful caster sculpts out there.
Spoiler:
The recent GW centrepiece models have far too much clutter and "pyro and ballyhoo" over them. If that's your thing then I'm not gonna change you opinion, but PP has loads of wonderful models in their line.
Personally like the plastic, the new real plastic even bette, over metal. Resin is cool.
They are not cheap nor have been for years. I love my trolls so they work but for humans and humanoid infantry it's a toss u.
To be fair, as least when they started consolidated the old metal kits to the newer plastic ones ( looking at you iron fangs) they made them cheaper. As oppose to GW, who reboxed eldar models and made them twice the price for no real reason.
I've a big issue with the proportions and scaling on the Troll range. The troll infantry scaling and proportions are all over the place - some have huge cartoony hands, others have more modestly scaled hands. Some have giant heads, others have more reasonable ones.
Yes, when butcher3 came. I looked at thr 60$ price tag and laughed. Asked if it was a msiprint and the cahsier assured me it wasnt.
This is a 3 model unit. One that in reality costs 0 points to add. Is now considered integral to khadors army that costs more than a gw tank.
Not to mention the gak that is their restic kits.
I'm not priced out but I am pausing purchases. Currently I have an unstarted Legion project and a small Dwarf project. I was going to expand the Legion with the Blightbringer and possibly pick up some Blindwater. On the cards was a second main faction.
I'm pausing all that as I'm not sure I really want to support PP long term now. I'll probably still make the odd purchase like I do with GW, but it will be something I will enjoy painting or something that has enough value I can use with other rules. Or might go nuts, and try and sell or trade the unstarted stuff.
Hmmm... I won't buy any toys unless I can find it 20% off at the least, and that depends on how much I want it. The less I desire something the deeper discount needs to be and if it's something I only have a passing interest in then 50% off is the threshold. It's the only way I've managed to be able to have miniatures for 13+ games. Luckily I own just about every PP model I need.
I've transitioned to painting predominantly as opposed to gaming. GWandPP have priced me out. PP is still making stuff that gets my creative juices going - For example, I'm greatly interested in getting the Dhunian Knot to paint, but given the size of my backlog, and the cost of the (admittedly awesome resin) models... They're going to have to wait.
Going full painter has also opened up non gaming models. I'm currently lusting after a bunch of stuff from Nocturna Models. The fact that both PP and GW's mass-produced plastic kits are priced the same as, or more than 70mm boutique, small production run, collector's resin pieces is insane.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes, when butcher3 came. I looked at thr 60$ price tag and laughed. Asked if it was a msiprint and the cahsier assured me it wasnt.
This is a 3 model unit. One that in reality costs 0 points to add. Is now considered integral to khadors army that costs more than a gw tank.
Not to mention the gak that is their restic kits.
Butcher3 is 3 40mm based models and a ton of metal in one kit, I think there is about as much metal in that box as there was in my older metal Kodiak. Seems reasonable to me. But then again (and I know I'm beating this horse to death, I'm sorry) he ISN'T more expensive than a GW tank down here....
*Edit*
You say $60 for Buthcer3 in the US? GW sells it's terminator models for between $20 (for the finecrap ones) and $30 (for the new plastics). That's $60-$90 for 3 40mm base models from GW and they are in MUCH cheaper materials.
I would say absolutely yes, but I haven't seen any of PP's HIPS minis nor their pricing. Googling "privateer press hips", "... Plastic", "... Polystyrene"' etc., has only resulted in odd bits in their catalogue or very old conversations about glues that don't work. Would a kind soul please give this poor wretch a link to some PP HIPS minis?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I would say absolutely yes, but I haven't seen any of PP's HIPS minis nor their pricing. Googling "privateer press hips", "... Plastic", "... Polystyrene"' etc., has only resulted in odd bits in their catalogue or very old conversations about glues that don't work. Would a kind soul please give this poor wretch a link to some PP HIPS minis?
That colossal is a dual kit and down about $25 USD compared at least to the Khador colossal in resin. The grolar is the same price as the other khador heavies.
Schmapdi wrote: They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).
Hang on - when did using metal become a bad thing?
I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the Primecast podcasts (when I was listening to it) that their intent was to use the material to produce a figure that they felt was the best-suited for the design, whether than be metal, resin, PVC or HIPs - or a composite of pieces from multiple materials.
For non-character models? About a decade ago.
You really have quite a skewed view there. The market leader, GW were producing units in metal right up until Finecast came about in 2011.
That doesn't make it right. And they were still selling old units in metal - they weren't producing new ones. I'm complaining about PP releasing NEW units/etc in metal, in 2015. Which is wildly anachronistic for a company with PP's money/clout.
What's wrong with making models in metal?
Ive never heard an objective reason people can say it's an inferior material, it's sturdier than resin or plastic and holds detail better than plastic. Sure it can be harder to convert and you may need to pin things but that's subjective opinion as to whick is better.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I would say absolutely yes, but I haven't seen any of PP's HIPS minis nor their pricing. Googling "privateer press hips", "... Plastic", "... Polystyrene"' etc., has only resulted in odd bits in their catalogue or very old conversations about glues that don't work. Would a kind soul please give this poor wretch a link to some PP HIPS minis?
That colossal is a dual kit and down about $25 USD compared at least to the Khador colossal in resin. The grolar is the same price as the other khador heavies.
Thanks for the listings, and these are indeed very impressive models! But that's rather part of my point: while some of the centerpieces are very nice indeed, common 'bread and butter units', so to speak, tend more towards ancient styling and poor material choices. I would note that, of the models you list, the Cyriss battle engine is the only one (to my knowledge) that could be regarded as a 'staple'. Though that may be more a legacy of the very small model list for Cyriss, and the extremely impressive stats of that model. Denny3 is not exactly on the short list for starting a faction, nor the sepulcher (the grolar I don't know much about at all).
Additionally, while I have no objections to metal models in theory; in practice I find that my patience for assembling large units (say, 6+ models) is profoundly limited.
I would really love some Nyss/arctic elves done in the style of the art that PP has for them, to give an example, but the existing models are simply... ghastly.
Orlanth wrote: A lot of ancilliary feature make up the value and whether it is worth the price.
Take Battletech for instance, people pay a lot for original miniatures, and even more if they are unseen. The per unit price for the current range from Iron Wind Metals is also very high for a miniature standing about as tall as a space marine because the players buy individual miniatures from a vast range.
No one really complains about the price even though on a per unit basis is makes PP seem cheap.
Hawk Wargames also knows how to charge people for DZC it's not a cheap game either to buy an army or on a per model basis, but people like the companies attitude so the price matters less.
Games Workshop has lower prices than PP but generates more hate than any other miniature company out there. Bootleggers of GW miniatures are treated like folk heroes, while bootlegging anyone elses miniatures would induce nerdrage.
So what about PP and their prices? People tend to forgive them as a company because they get the rules right and don't bullcrap the customers over army books. It buys them a lot of good will, and the models are sold in useful sized packets for an enjoyable game. But the price is creeping up and up now, and the range is expanding so investment levels to keep in the game are raising and the bubble is beginning to burst now they are starting to be dicks on pricing. All this may have a lot more bearing on the sub-concious tolerance of the companies prices.
The business of value isnt rational, it's subjective, and who you are buying the models from and whether you like the producers ethos has as much to do with whether the purchase is good for you as the price and product.
exalted!
I always grin deprecatingly when I see price threads for hobby games. Yes, GW and PP tabletop games are pricy, but, anyone know what the current price for a Modern Eldrazi deck can go for? I have always said that in the long run, miniature games are generally much cheaper than CCGs like Magic: the Gathering. You buy what you need for your army and you are done. Occasionally you update some stuff, but card games are literally like playing nickel slots in comparison. Ever seen anyone go through booster packs? Then see someone come and buy a miniature from GW or PP? Who (generally speaking) spends LESS?
carldooley wrote: I always grin deprecatingly when I see price threads for hobby games. Yes, GW and PP tabletop games are pricy, but, anyone know what the current price for a Modern Eldrazi deck can go for? I have always said that in the long run, miniature games are generally much cheaper than CCGs like Magic: the Gathering. You buy what you need for your army and you are done. Occasionally you update some stuff, but card games are literally like playing nickel slots in comparison. Ever seen anyone go through booster packs? Then see someone come and buy a miniature from GW or PP? Who (generally speaking) spends LESS?
There's always a bigger donkey-cave. That Wizards of the Coast has an even more dysfunctional relationship with its customers than GW or PP doesn't make GW or PP good.
Love the everblight faction but haven't bought in years, still have a backlog, and haven't played the new rules yet, and the prices ain't helping either
Their stylistic and aesthetic choices did that a long time ago instead.
+1. I did have a small Cygnar army a long time ago but almost all of it was proxied from other manufacturers and it hasn't seen a table in nearly a decade now. PP quite simply makes nothing that I want.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I would say absolutely yes, but I haven't seen any of PP's HIPS minis nor their pricing. Googling "privateer press hips", "... Plastic", "... Polystyrene"' etc., has only resulted in odd bits in their catalogue or very old conversations about glues that don't work. Would a kind soul please give this poor wretch a link to some PP HIPS minis?
That colossal is a dual kit and down about $25 USD compared at least to the Khador colossal in resin. The grolar is the same price as the other khador heavies.
jonolikespie wrote: What's wrong with making models in metal? Ive never heard an objective reason people can say it's an inferior material, it's sturdier than resin or plastic and holds detail better than plastic. Sure it can be harder to convert and you may need to pin things but that's subjective opinion as to whick is better.
"It's harder to convert", "It's harder to prep", "paint doesn't stick to it as well", "long thin parts are more likely to bend or be bent", "tall narrow models are less balanced and more likely to topple when they are metal" and "construction is more difficult" are objective reasons. The subjective part is how important those is to you, but the reasons themselves are objective.
The main thing I like about metal over plastic is that the casting method is more open to variety. If GW weren't using metal in the 80's and 90's I can guarantee we wouldn't have the variety of IG regiments or SM chapters we currently do. Also having more detail.
Resin vs metal, I'm struggling to think of a reasons I would like metal over resin. I guess the big one is resin parts have a tendency to warp and if they came warped sometimes you can fix them but they might gradually go back to their warped state. But then thin metal parts being so prone to bending isn't awesome either.
I had to check an unboxing video because I was sure she was the HIP, but no I stand corrected. What is she then, she doesn't look like the old plastic/resin hybrid? At least it looks like a darker material than previously.
MattofWar wrote: That's the problem with calling it all "plastic" in their description. Even people who think they know which are which will get it wrong.
Well, PP aren't incorrect in describing it that way
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I would say absolutely yes, but I haven't seen any of PP's HIPS minis nor their pricing. Googling "privateer press hips", "... Plastic", "... Polystyrene"' etc., has only resulted in odd bits in their catalogue or very old conversations about glues that don't work. Would a kind soul please give this poor wretch a link to some PP HIPS minis?
That colossal is a dual kit and down about $25 USD compared at least to the Khador colossal in resin. The grolar is the same price as the other khador heavies.
Which one is the colossal? Honestly, none of them really seem like great prices for the minis, except maybe for Deneghra...which is restic? The first one is the size of the Grind Warjacks, right? I guess the price isn't too bad for it, but it doesn't strike me as a very exciting miniature. More SM Dreadnaught than, say, Wraithlord.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How is that a game changer?
Does it affect the prices of their models?
Well, it's changing the game, so technically, it is a game changer. It'll be free to download.
If it sorts out some of the issues in the game, which is likely, then the perceived value for the game and it's models may increase for people. In game value and playability is partly relevant in terms of pricing people out of a game or not. And also, new starter sets. apparently pretty good value!
keezus wrote: The first model is on a 50mm base. It's significantly beefier than a Grind model. The rest are on 120mm bases.
Then it does seem like a better deal. The large ones are very large, but not very compelling to me. The Cryx one looks exciting in a Dark Crystal meets the Matrix kind of a way, but the price is so high that I'm just not willing to take the "risk".
keezus wrote: The first model is on a 50mm base. It's significantly beefier than a Grind model. The rest are on 120mm bases.
Then it does seem like a better deal. The large ones are very large, but not very compelling to me. The Cryx one looks exciting in a Dark Crystal meets the Matrix kind of a way, but the price is so high that I'm just not willing to take the "risk".
That I will (not) enjoy assembling it, have a plethora of usable bits, and/or want to look at it again. For $105, the model had better give me a modeling rush that lasts for days and fill me with paternal pride whenever I pass it's display plinth.
I wouldn't even pay $105 for the Kingdom Death Dragon King, and that one whispers to me in my sleep, my troubled, feverish sleep.
No idea when the menoth or cryx one are coming out. It's pretty ridiculous actually, considering the rules for them came out in 2014, back in mk2 and by the time mk3 comes out, we still wouldn't have gotten them.
MSRP $50 for 2 large-based models, 1 small-based model, cards, fluff book for the faction, and rules
New battle box:
MSRP $40 for 2 large-based models, 1 small-based model, cards, rules, battlemap, paper terrain, a shoddy-looking ruler, dice and tokens.
These are of course to get people into the game an are likely not making them much profit, but it is still a significantly better deal than before. It is the same cost as the X-Wing Starter set. I choose Khador because the new and old are quite similar, only swapping out 1 warjack of the same size and the warcaster.
MSRP $50 for 2 large-based models, 1 small-based model, cards, fluff book for the faction, and rules
New battle box:
MSRP $40 for 2 large-based models, 1 small-based model, cards, rules, battlemap, paper terrain, a shoddy-looking ruler, dice and tokens.
These are of course to get people into the game an are likely not making them much profit, but it is still a significantly better deal than before. It is the same cost as the X-Wing Starter set. I choose Khador because the new and old are quite similar, only swapping out 1 warjack of the same size and the warcaster.
That new caster for Khador is super snazzy looking too. They've certainly managed to make me completely forget the new policy with this news.
To answer the OP... no, PP did not price themselves out of my market recently. They did it from the very beginning.
Granted, had I not been heavily invested in WFB at that point it might have been different, but I can't afford to invest in TWO expensive (for mini games) hobbies if I hope to retire someday.
So, as they say, when the facts change, my opinions also change: with the announcement of Mk.III, I am cautiously optimistic that many of the things I noted as complaints in this thread will be addressed. For one thing, my understanding is that the new battle boxes are not only going to be cheaper, but include more stuff. I have no idea why they are being shown with colored plastic parts, but we can only hope that this represents a move from PVC to HIPS (hope springs eternal).
In HIPS, for $40, I'd have picked up most of them. In PVC, only one or two of them appeal to me, although deep discounts could make a difference. Seeing the Menoth and Cryx PVC figures brought back some unpleasant memories.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Screw it, definitely getting that Everblight starter next November.
PP has issues with their HIPS factory I think. They only seem to come out with 1 HIPS model per year, which is really slow considering we've been waiting for 4 of them ever since they were announced in 2014, of which we've only gotten 2 so far.
i'm hoping i'll be able to find the castors for my armies for cheap on ebay after these hit and people break them up
(as for the pricing, my warmahordes purchases are fairly infrequent anyway, so i don't see a huge change, other then perhaps hitting up ebay first rather then picking up new more often then now)
The moment they started charging non-PVC prices for PVC was the beginning of the end for me. This is just one more nail in the coffin for my purchase from them.
In terms of reselling, how well do the old metal models hold up value-wise? I have Cryx and Menoth armies from MKI and early, early MKII. Are those figures worthless due to updates or are they sought after since they aren't the PVC material PP is fond of?
DarkTraveler777 wrote: In terms of reselling, how well do the old metal models hold up value-wise? I have Cryx and Menoth armies from MKI and early, early MKII. Are those figures worthless due to updates or are they sought after since they aren't the PVC material PP is fond of?
Metal is usually fine, provided PP haven't released a new sculpt of the unit/solo/caster that either
A. has a better pose
B. is multi-part
C. In HIPS
60% of retail is usually the best you can expect. Unpainted or primed seem to be worth more unless we're talking gold demon quality.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: In terms of reselling, how well do the old metal models hold up value-wise? I have Cryx and Menoth armies from MKI and early, early MKII. Are those figures worthless due to updates or are they sought after since they aren't the PVC material PP is fond of?
I'm no expert, but I've found that the value has dropped of significantly where new models have been released. It got so low that I was able to scoop up metal Khador Warjacks (the basic models) for around 6-8 bucks each second hand. Very helpfull when you need 6 of them to make a proxy unit of "Lesser Abyssal Golems"
I've no interest in the game itself and I've never been willing to pay new prices, but I've long liked the style of the minis. I'm also someone who likes metal models (I'll take metal over PVC anyday and usually over resin also), so the 4 in the pic above were a real treat!
In short? Yes the material used does not justify the price tag, no matter how you want to spin this they need to change mediums fast! Looking at Salute the shelves were not moving (checked it in the beginning of the day and end of the day) but that may be the case since Wayland was selling the old stuff and everyone knows the new edition is coming. Even then the deals they had should have people buying more? Dont know.
I mostly agree.
I'm sometimes willing to use Restic or other plasti-resins, but as I consider them cheaper and lower-quality materials I expect them to be priced accordingly. I was not at all surprised when Mantic started using them as they are essentially a value-driven company deliberately shooting for a lower price point. For a "premium" company like Privateer press to use Restic with only a small price drop in some cases struck me as a bit odd.
All this to say Restic is not a "premium" material and I think that premium companies only get away with using it because it allows for kits with slightly more pieces/options and gamers perceive it as being easier to work with than metal (a point I tend to disagree with).
At the same time, perhaps gamers share the blame with the practicalities of production. Polystyrene is too expensive for many/most models, Resin is not durable or well suited to medium-large production runs and lots of hobbyists seem to dislike metal. That only leaves Restic.
Metal is great for characters and for the big fellas just use plastic I would say... To be honest if small companies manage to do plastic PP has little excuses not to... unless they are currently not selling stuff and getting back their money.
As it stands I have little interest in paying serious money for restic and like I did with finecast ( which is even worse) No money from me. You can have great miniatures but if you cast them in subpar material they are ruined IMO.
I can tolerate repetitions of the same mini on a unit box and I can even tolerate silly prices if I really like the model but the material is the final drop for me, it shows a company lack of care about the product they sell.
Sining wrote: PP has issues with their HIPS factory I think. They only seem to come out with 1 HIPS model per year, which is really slow considering we've been waiting for 4 of them ever since they were announced in 2014, of which we've only gotten 2 so far.
I've said for years that PP just needs to take the financial loss and get most, if not all, of their current PVC plastics done in HIPS instead. At the very least, have someone on-site in their Chinese factories to make sure that the quality is there. When there's a thread complaining about your miniatures materials every few weeks on your official forums, it may just be a good sign that there are issues...
Once released retail, a 10 man metal Mierce Darklands unit will run £30 ($45). A 10 man restic Warmahordes unit costs $50+ retail. Something does not quite compute. I generally like PP, online price fixing aside, but some of their stuff I think is rather overpriced for the quality.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Once released retail, a 10 man metal Mierce Darklands unit will run £30 ($45). A 10 man restic Warmahordes unit costs $50+ retail. Something does not quite compute. I generally like PP, online price fixing aside, but some of their stuff I think is rather overpriced for the quality.
I've never really paid attention to Mierce because I thought they were like a $20 per basic trooper type range. I'm not familiar enough with them to know where to start looking for these more reasonably priced miniatures. Anyone know? Or is this a new product line they are launching?
My problem with PP's prices is other things in the store always get my money instead. I might think "I'd really like to add a unit of Invictors to my Retribution" but then when I actually go to the store, I end up walking out with a new platoon of 15mm WW2 miniatures. One guy that I game with some times has started using Reaper Bones as substitutes where appropriate. At first I was like "are there really enough things that can be represented by generic fantasy miniatures?" and then I saw a unit of Reaper bugbears he was running as Bloodgorgers. $30 instead of $90.
Spoiler:
Not his miniature, but an example of the ones he used
Apparently his next unit is Reaper barrow wardens as banes.
I'm thinking I'm going to join in on this Bonesmachine approach
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Once released retail, a 10 man metal Mierce Darklands unit will run £30 ($45). A 10 man restic Warmahordes unit costs $50+ retail. Something does not quite compute. I generally like PP, online price fixing aside, but some of their stuff I think is rather overpriced for the quality.
I've never really paid attention to Mierce because I thought they were like a $20 per basic trooper type range. I'm not familiar enough with them to know where to start looking for these more reasonably priced miniatures. Anyone know? Or is this a new product line they are launching?
Here's a link to the first metal age KS. Retail for the 10 man 30mm based unit should be £30 and £7 for a solo (the KS prices were 10% off, and £27 and £6. respectively). They converted the 30/40/50 mm based units to metal to help lower the cost of entry (resins are still available though). The first waves of the metals have shipped, and I'm really pleased with my units. Normally there's a few month delay between KS backers getting theirs and them appearing on the webstore, so not sure when they'll appear.
Darklands still isn't a cheap game, which is why its bonkers to me that it will be less to proxy a unit of Croakhunters with Savrar than the other way around!
Well, if Privateer's volumes have dipped and then they still have to give a cut to distributors and retailers, I can see how they could need to charge what they do for PVC.
It's entirely possible that their high pricing, restricting of discounters and the launch of MK3 is a response to having peaked a year or two ago.
Their volumes declining also might explain why they stopped the transition over to styrene plastic as it's better suited for larger runs. If any product would be perfect for styrene, it would be starters.
MattofWar wrote: Well, if Privateer's volumes have dipped and then they still have to give a cut to distributors and retailers, I can see how they could need to charge what they do for PVC.
It's entirely possible that their high pricing, restricting of discounters and the launch of MK3 is a response to having peaked a year or two ago.
Their volumes declining also might explain why they stopped the transition over to styrene plastic as it's better suited for larger runs. If any product would be perfect for styrene, it would be starters.
As much as I hate it, I think the starters are PVC to keep them at such a low price point. $39.99USD for a battlebox, rules, dice, demo mat, flat terrain, etc, is a pretty good price, probably low enough to tempt people into impulse purchases. I'd personally have paid $60 for it to be HIPS, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.
The thing about HIPS is that it has a higher up front cost and a lower per unit cost. If you are going to have a high demand item and you do a larger run, it doesn't have to be $60 rather than $40. Look at what Maelstrom's Edge was able to do with their larger miniatures. The Angel is bigger than most warjacks and is $9. The Epirian Hunter is $9.50
Spoiler:
And that's from a start up as their initial product launch after a modest $70K Kickstarter. Privateer should have more than enough to invest in a similar approach that takes advantage of what HIPS can mean in terms of per unit costs.
HIPS shouldn't mean a higher price point. The whole point of it is to reduce the marginal cost of the next sprue produced.
I can see a few reasons not to change these starters from PVC:
1) They have their PVC production in a good place in terms of consistent supply and don't want to shake things up by going with their HIPS source. Any logistical concerns would also be lumped in here.
2) They are expecting lower volumes than would merit the up front cost of a transition to HIPS. They sold some of the HIPS battle engines and jacks but in the end, the volume just isn't there to justify rolling out a new edition using HIPS.
3) They didn't give themselves enough time to do the front end work for the new material. The molds and design process are different and maybe MK3 got pushed up. Maybe it was originally supposed to be announced at Lock & Load, but released later like at Gencon or something.
When you add in the protectionist retailer policies they are trying to enact, Privateer is behaving like a company that has finished its growth stage and now has to figure out how to be a mature company. They've explicitly stated that their sales through brick and mortar stores are down and they blame the online discounters.
Then they spring MK3 right after that. GW definitely uses new editions to try to get a sales boost. I think we're seeing the same thing here.
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TheWaspinator wrote: The styrene transition hasn't stopped, though. Aren't they doing HIPS colossals?
It's been super spotty. One battle engine here, one jack there, one collasal here. Not the new starters (which you'd expect to be some of their highest volume sellers).
When they first started with PVC they had similar issues with a spotty transition. They got there eventually though and probably will for HIPS, assuming the purchasing volume is high enough to justify the up front costs.
They've said ALL new colossals going forward are HIP dual kits, and they are stepping up HIP warjack production even if the starter sets aren't. The most recent non-character jacks I can think of are the Cygnar HIP one and the Khador HIP Grolar, with the bezerker sprues being teased too.
I hope those kits come out in a timely fashion, but I highly doubt they will. Like faster than it took them to release Destors. Or implement their change from MK1 blisters to where all boxes contain full units. Heck, they still haven't finished the releases from a book from two years ago (Vengeance in March of 2014). I was super excited when I heard about the Inflictor... but something is wrong when you can't even get the kits out for one of your main factions after two years have gone by.
Then add in all the releases that come with a new edition I think it's going to be a long time before all the dual kits are released in styrene.
They can confirm all they want, but I think what we'll really see is a spotty release schedule for their HIPS models with lots and lots of waiting.
To bring this back on topic, I think they need to make this transition a much greater priority than they've demonstrated. Like have the entry point be in styrene. And have their be a critical mass of products so that anyone who doesn't want to deal with hard grey PVC can still make a viable army. Right now when you get a box off the shelf you don't really know if it'll be any good. It might be from one of their runs that had terrible mold lines and detail destroying injection gates or it might be fine. That's just not acceptable at their price point.
keezus wrote: I dig that you did fist-swaps putting plastic fists on the metal dudes. It really does change their character.
Thanks!
My buddy snagged a bag of leftover jack arms and heads at a FLGS auction for me. The goal was just to have them all armed with CC weapons and for no two of them to be armed alike.
The guy with two plastic fists is one of my favorites. It's not as easy to see in the picture, but I gave him a head with a jutting jaw I nicknamed him "The Boxer". Next to him there's also a metal dude with a fist and a double-headed axe, all made from plastic parts.There are more pics of them here:
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/11/more-reinforcements-knights-and.html
I started to get into Warmachine, but once I realized that most of the other players had armies similar in size to what I expected in 40k, and that the miniatures cost about the same as GW, I lost interest.
I still like playing a game now and then with my starter box of 3 warjacks and a warcaster though.
) and thought my Drago could use a face upgrade, though that would piss him off immensely.
