I hate them. They’re antithetical to our motivations for why we at Privateer do what we do.
We like to share! We love making art and games and stories and miniatures, and we love sharing them and playing them with the amazing people who we are lucky enough to be able to call our community.
Keeping secrets is hard. It makes us paranoid. We get stressed out. The only thing that makes it worth it is that at some point, we know we’ll get to see your reaction to what we’ve done when we finally let the cat—ahem, ’jack—out of the bag. And today, we were finally able to unleash the mother of all secrets!
In case you somehow managed to stumble upon this and haven’t heard yet, there are going to be all-new editions of HORDES and WARMACHINE at your favorite local game store on June 29!
Quick, take a selfie so we can see the expression on your face! Tweet it and/or post it to our Facebook! Let’s remember this moment together.*
Before the current edition released in 2010—Mk II as we called it—we were already talking about what the next evolution of the game might be like. Not that we weren’t thrilled with Mk II, but we knew a time would come when we’d have years more experience and data, and once again WARMACHINE and HORDES would evolve. So right away, we started listening.
Three years ago, work started in earnest. We code-named the project ‘Egg Roll.’ I don’t know why. I don’t know if anyone even remembers. But it was a shortsighted decision, for a couple reasons: 1) Typing ‘Egg Roll’ over and over again is tedious. It doesn’t look like it should be, but it’s tripped me up more than once, and I’m a decent typist. 2) It has forever changed the way I regard one of my favorite snacks. Once a crispy finger-food stuffed with savory goodness, the quintessential appetizer of Chinese cuisine will forever invoke in me the feeling of having to hold my breath for far too long. When you like to share things, three years is a long time to hold your silence.
Egg Roll—I mean, the new editions of WARMACHINE and HORDES, represent the biggest project Privateer Press has ever undertaken. Every model ever made for the games was redesigned, rebalanced, and updated to a revised set of rules. The sheer volume of work was, I think, at the time we initiated the project, something we couldn’t really comprehend. Like a black hole. . . or dinosaurs. We could do the math and we could imagine what it would be like, but the reality of what we had undertaken didn’t actually hit us until we were neck-deep in the ocean of work.
The new editions are very much an evolution of the game. We’ve been quiet about it, but our development did not happen in a vacuum. You were helping us the entire time. Egg Roll—damnit, that was an honest typo, but I’m leaving it—I mean, the new editions of WARMACHINE and HORDES are the products of our experience with our community. We have six years of data gathered over the course of Mk II, derived from thousands of convention and Organized Play events. We have billions (or some slightly smaller number) of forum posts filled with suggestions, discussions, and yes, even the occasional debate, on what would be best for the game, what works, what doesn’t, what would make it better, and what you [collectively] love about playing WARMACHINE and HORDES. Dozens of our staff, from Insider regulars Director of Business Will Shick and Creative Director Ed Bourelle to Graphic Designer Richard Anderson and Sculpting Manager Doug Hamilton, spend thousands of hours at conventions talking to the people who play our games, and many of them bring their own armies and throw down on the table with you. Lead Game Designer Jason Soles will play 15-20 games every year just at Lock & Load, and any other time we let him leave the office to go to an event. It might look like it’s all just fun and games, but that experience for us is invaluable when it comes to making a game that you will want to play.
And that, my friends, is what everyone here at Privateer Press—anxiously awaiting your Tweeted and Facebooked selfies—hopes that we have accomplished. It’s a simple goal, with a lot of math, imagination, dedication, and love behind it. We’ve got a ton of stuff to show you—from videos and podcasts, to developer articles, new characters, fiction, art, and models—all queued up to share over the weeks ahead. If you happen to be coming to Lock & Load in June, you’ll be playing the new editions of WARMACHINE and HORDES right there with us after we give you a peek at everything else coming up through the rest of the year. And that’s when we’ll know if we hit our mark, but I think you’re going to like what you see.
I have never been more pleased to be a part of Privateer Press, more proud of the people who have worked so hard these past years to make the new editions a reality, and more excited to announce to our community what we’ve been doing.
Yeah relaunch your game after screwing over customers who buy online. Doesn't matter if you have no lgs as you'll still be expected to subsidize those who do
Too much chat about getting new players introduced to the game, not enough chat about the change they plan on introducing. Will this require new cards, for instance?
I'll remain cynical until I see a game that somehow manages to remove just a touch of that special sauce that makes OCD, insane people who play 24/7 insta-win when sitting down opposite someone even a hair more casual.
Oh, and for the love of GOD, remove that idiotic "Page 5".
That said, new editions are always fun times to explore a game anew. I won't be buying another Privateer model thanks to their shady practices and direction, but if this lets me dust off existing armies and maybe find them newly playable, i'd entertain a few games.
Still, the timing of this all.... Oh Privateer... something feels so suspect about every move you make right now.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Too much chat about getting new players introduced to the game, not enough chat about the change they plan on introducing. Will this require new cards, for instance?
It will. Warroom will be updated and you can buy new faction decks. Just like the start of mkII
New Battleboxes for the New Mk3, includes all new warcasters for each faction, barring Merc and Minions. Listed on their website, or at least in one of the later panels of the slideshow that's there.
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Too much chat about getting new players introduced to the game, not enough chat about the change they plan on introducing. Will this require new cards, for instance?
New Card decks are being rolled out as per the announcement of facebook. No news on War Room yet.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh, and for the love of GOD, remove that idiotic "Page 5".
When was the last time you read it? It changed a lot between MK I and MK II.
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
This is unexpected but I like the way the announced it.
Motograter wrote: Yeah relaunch your game after screwing over customers who buy online. Doesn't matter if you have no lgs as you'll still be expected to subsidize those who do
I buy online from my LGS and I would always support the local store with orders, no matter if I play there or not.
(my next local store with WM/H is 200 kilometers away, but they support all Clubs around them and a phone call is enough to get the stuff I need with decent savings. I only order stuff from pure online shops that is out of production and I cannot get somewhere else)
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
What page 5 are you reading? The one I'm looking act actively discourages that kind of behavior.
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
Ha, like people need an excuse.
The only people who take "play like you got a pair" to mean "act like a douche" we're already going to act like a douche. At worst, if just gives them something to be douches about.
So excited!! The game was in major need of an update. This is my main game, but people were fading from playing and moving to Guild Ball (also an excellent game) and the like... this is just awesome news and can't wait to see the new rules!
I kinda had a feeling they were up to something like this with that other thread and stuff
They updated their homepage, but doesn't work good in the teeny browser window I need to use so no one at work can see me hardly working instead of working hard
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
Ah, yes, encourages players to act like donkeys, with lines like this:
"Page 5 is not an excuse. Most importantly--and let's state this loud and clear for the record--Page 5 is not permission to be a jackass in the name of competition....And Page 5 is never, ever, EVER a license to diminish another player so you can inflate your own vertically challenge self-esteem"
Also, locally I see only slightly fewer unpainted Warmachine armies than I did for 40K or WHFB, but I suppose every area is different. Did you consider that, perhaps, they're pushing the "it's a hobby, you can paint your stuff" angle because they're trying to encourage people to paint their stuff?
Honestly, just including tokens is already a decent choice, which I appreciate. Not sure I did colored plastic, but I think that might be purely for these photos.
Price seems about right too.
I will say, I expect changes to focus, because some of these boxes.... I can't imagine how you'd be expected to fuel those battle-boxes at a glance. :-p
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
Spoken like someone whose never read page 5.
I have.
Let me tell you a story. IT was a journeymen league. First day there. So guess what happens? I get krushed, my opponent didnt even talk to me, he just crushed me. after that all he said was, after I felt sour about my loss, he said "Play like you got a pair" and didnt even attempt to help, be nice or kind or even give me pointers. It left a sour taste in my mouth. This game is competititve, I get that. but it doesnt give people an excuse to be an ass.
I am so iffy on Privateer Press right now, but I also love the game and wanted a new edition badly. We'll see how I feel after reading the rules. I do like the new battleboxes, though I wish they each came with a faction themed mat instead of the same one. I hope the coloured plastics are good plastic and not board game plastic that they immediately made me think of. Including tokens is huge though!
I like it, and think that removing it would take away some of what Warmachine/Hordes is, even a tiny bit. It's also really good for a new player to see that and understand what the game is sort of like, outside of actual plays.
You mean where it give people an excuse to acts like donkeys and not help new players whatsoever?
Spoken like someone whose never read page 5.
I have.
Let me tell you a story. IT was a journeymen league. First day there. So guess what happens? I get krushed, my opponent didnt even talk to me, he just crushed me. after that all he said was, after I felt sour about my loss, he said "Play like you got a pair" and didnt even attempt to help, be nice or kind or even give me pointers. It left a sour taste in my mouth. This game is competititve, I get that. but it doesnt give people an excuse to be an ass.
So you encountered a common garden variety Cockwomble. The game you were playing is irrelevant.
Wasnt the last time someone used "play like you got a pair" as an excuse either against me. Not only that, but the whole page 5 mentality is what pushed alot of my friends away. The thing is. I like the game, even after selling my khador army. Its just the fact that people us the game to be an ass more frequently than I see in 40k is what I have seen.
Got nearly all the miniatures I wanted, for Circle, and I don`t like any other faction designs, so I won`t be investing into anything but a couple models to paint (Wrongeye and Snapjaw for example).
That means a new game for me for free meta doesn`t trouble me,my lists are out of it anyway
I have.
Let me tell you a story. IT was a journeymen league. First day there. So guess what happens? I get krushed, my opponent didnt even talk to me, he just crushed me. after that all he said was, after I felt sour about my loss, he said "Play like you got a pair" and didnt even attempt to help, be nice or kind or even give me pointers. It left a sour taste in my mouth. This game is competititve, I get that. but it doesnt give people an excuse to be an ass.
My first game was a tournament and my opponent even stopped the battle clock to explain me stuff or to point out some bad mistakes I did
Souleater wrote: Yes. Books are being released on 29th June. Core rules will be free to download.
On the 12th of June they're free to download.
Bellevue, WA, April 11, 2016 — Privateer Press has announced new editions of its award-winning WARMACHINE and HORDES tabletop miniatures games. The new editions will be released worldwide in independent hobby game stores on June 29, 2016. Privateer Press will release the new Core Rules for each game for free online on June 12, 2016. Players will get their first chance to play the new edition at Lock & Load GameFest 2016 in Bellevue, WA, held June 10-12.
Really looking forward to the new rules, plus they are FREE. BB are at a great price for new players to get started. I knew something was up when my brother at Adepticon was getting all this free stuff from PP.
Oh man! As a brand newish player im very excited at this. I do like the rule set but think it could have been polished in a couple areas, cant wait to see the changes. Might turn the game into exaclty what im looking for!
AndrewGPaul wrote: Not so impressed with Warcaster tubster there. I'll stick with my venerable metal Kreoss starter.
I might take a look at the rules when they come out, though I doubt they'll be to my taste.
According to Primecast from a couple months ago the PoM caster is supposed to be their version of the Butcher and his appearance is based on Vincent D'Onofrio, specifically his role as Kingpin in Daredevil.
First downside, PPS Simon on there forum has stated War Room purchases will have to be made again. However, there will be a discount for people buying factions they already owned in MKII.
gunslingerpro wrote: First downside, PPS Simon on there forum has stated War Room purchases will have to be made again. However, there will be a discount for people buying factions they already owned in MKII.
Additionally if you bought the full bundles you get upgraded for free.
I'm... cautiously optimistic? You won't find a bigger Warmachine hater than me on these boards (or if you do, that guy's got problems), but a new edition has a chance to fix my massive problems with the game. Whether it will or not remains to be seen.
- Colored plastic is great. I played with a group that never painted their figures, and in fact rarely see painted Warmachine figures at all. Making the models have different colors will at the minimum make the battlefield easier to visually parse. Rather than a sea of silver, black, and gray, you'll be able to tell one army from another at a glance. It's a good solution to a weird problem.
- I'm hoping for some 3D terrain. Got sick of playing on the same flat fields with flat forests and slightly less flat hills. The problem wasn't just the economical propensities of the competitive players, but the game itself lacked rules for 3D movement and combat. I won one game by climbing a tower (on the field at my insistence) and my opponent complained that I cheated because there were no rules for that. Unfortunately, the fact that the beginner boxes come with flat terrain maps does not inspire confidence.
- Warjacks! Come on man! If you are going to make a game called "Warmachine", at least make the Warmachines worth playing. I had one guy laugh at me when I put three jacks on the table. Throwing away points, he said.
- More beginner friendly. Each model does like six different things, and has six different attributes on themselves and on their weapons, making it incredibly easy to forget rules while you are playing. Even beyond the combo-heavy nature of the game, there's just a lot to keep in your head about the units themselves. With like 7 or 8 factions and special rules for each faction, each unit, and each model, the game buckles under the weight of what you need to know simply to play a game.
- Not a fan of the combo heavy aspects of the game. I feel that it makes the game too focused on only a few viable army compositions, often forcing you to buy models you don't like and don't want to finish up a combo possibility. It means you can't buy models you do like (like jacks) because they don't fit a specific combo. And it means that not only do new players have to wrestle with a thousand different abilities, attributes, special rules, and faction, they also have to wrestle with the dozen or so major combos for each faction and know the combo breaking tools needed to succeed against them.
- The models need to get a lot fething better. After getting two All-in-One boxes, my opinion of the game and Privateer Press dropped like a rock. I loved the metal models I had, but holy crap, that resin-plastic stuff was/is terrible. I hear they are working on improving on it, so I hope they succeed by Mk3.
As a non-Warmachine player, the art style is still a killer. If different factions had their own takes on what the basic Warjack configuration was there might be one that I liked, but as is, if you hate one, you hate them all.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Wasnt the last time someone used "play like you got a pair" as an excuse either against me. Not only that, but the
whole page 5 mentality is what pushed alot of my friends away.
The thing is. I like the game, even after selling my khador army. Its just the fact that people us the game to be an ass more frequently than I see in 40k is what I have seen.
I will give you that there is more of a competitive vibe from Warmachine and that may turn some people off. However 40k has whole other way for people to be an ass, and that is being a rules lawyer. The people I have meet while playing 40k that love arguing that their interpretation of some vague rule is the gospel truth.
Speaking for myself, I would rather face very competitive players then people who stop our game halfway through to get into a 20 min argument about syntax of a sentence in the rulebook for a game using plastic toy soldiers.
As far as the OP, I am really looking forward to this new edition and the new ret. caster.
I stopped playing WM when MKII came out because I was pissed off how the revamp was handled, especially regarding Legends models that had previously been released only a few months prior to getting massive revisions for MKII.
Hearing that MKIII is on the horizon leaves me feeling ambivalent mostly. I'll check out the free rules but having not really played the game in 6 years (wow!) I don't know if I even care to come back. I still have my armies, so even if the new rules don't catch my interest hopefully the revisions will make the armies fun and playable and easier to sell/trade.
I am worried now that will be the same bendy plastic they use for their board games.
I asked on the official forum, they're unassembled PVC like the last ones. I don't mind that for $40 with the other stuff in the box. Better deal than the last ones and they were okay anyway.
Mildy curious. Used to play WM but eventually found the ethos behind it was way too different for my taste.
Sqorgar wrote: - I'm hoping for some 3D terrain. Got sick of playing on the same flat fields with flat forests and slightly less flat hills. The problem wasn't just the economical propensities of the competitive players, but the game itself lacked rules for 3D movement and combat. I won one game by climbing a tower (on the field at my insistence) and my opponent complained that I cheated because there were no rules for that. Unfortunately, the fact that the beginner boxes come with flat terrain maps does not inspire confidence.
Oh yeah. Every time there's ropecon(big rpg/ccg/miniature/whatever event in finland) I try to go around looking at tournaments. While at FB/40k what I got sick and tired was monotive armies(to the point you see what army is on field you could fairly accurately predict army list...Without even really indepth knowledge of the armies!) what always bugged me in machine/hordes was how bare terrain wise tables looked! At least armies weren't as monotome but in return tables are!
- Warjacks! Come on man! If you are going to make a game called "Warmachine", at least make the Warmachines worth playing. I had one guy laugh at me when I put three jacks on the table. Throwing away points, he said.
Oh yeah. And people say machine needs less models. Plenty bigger machine armies than 40k armies out there! Okay so at least there's always at least one jack but that's because it's basically free...Wonder how many all infantry armies there would be without artificially "forcing" players to take them?
- More beginner friendly. Each model does like six different things, and has six different attributes on themselves and on their weapons, making it incredibly easy to forget rules while you are playing. Even beyond the combo-heavy nature of the game, there's just a lot to keep in your head about the units themselves. With like 7 or 8 factions and special rules for each faction, each unit, and each model, the game buckles under the weight of what you need to know simply to play a game.
Add to that what it is like if you can play once a month, if you are lucky! Good luck learning all the combos.
- Not a fan of the combo heavy aspects of the game. I feel that it makes the game too focused on only a few viable army compositions, often forcing you to buy models you don't like and don't want to finish up a combo possibility. It means you can't buy models you do like (like jacks) because they don't fit a specific combo. And it means that not only do new players have to wrestle with a thousand different abilities, attributes, special rules, and faction, they also have to wrestle with the dozen or so major combos for each faction and know the combo breaking tools needed to succeed against them.
My biggest beef. I don't like MTG styled combo game. Matter of taste I suppose.
But I get sad face when supposed core of factions army is representented by token unit if that. Why? No reason to take more than 1 unit because the combo that makes it good works only on one unit! If game is big enough you need more troops you better find another combo and use those instead. "Core" unit without that combo is a joke.
Also means there's no real bog standard unit like in FB you had empire spearmen, goblin infantry etc...
Well. WM3 won't fix everything(hahahahahaha at the idea. That would be way too radical update! Would likely piss off tons of existing players) but maybe it nudges a bit toward direction where I might find it good enough to restart again.
Irritated about the online pricing (as that's where I've gotten 95% of all my WMH stuff), but curious just how much the rules will change.
If the focus is put back on beasts and jacks, I'm in. Small battles as a standard with heavy stuff and no more than 6 to 10 guys per side? I'd be all over it.
I'm liking the new Troll and Mennite, but a bit eh about the rest of the boxes content.
Maybe now my Manowars can finally stomp across the field the way they always should have been able to, rather than get shown up by Winterguard chumps.
Sqorgar wrote: I'm... cautiously optimistic? You won't find a bigger Warmachine hater than me on these boards (or if you do, that guy's got problems), but a new edition has a chance to fix my massive problems with the game. Whether it will or not remains to be seen.
- Colored plastic is great. I played with a group that never painted their figures, and in fact rarely see painted Warmachine figures at all. Making the models have different colors will at the minimum make the battlefield easier to visually parse. Rather than a sea of silver, black, and gray, you'll be able to tell one army from another at a glance. It's a good solution to a weird problem.
- I'm hoping for some 3D terrain. Got sick of playing on the same flat fields with flat forests and slightly less flat hills. The problem wasn't just the economical propensities of the competitive players, but the game itself lacked rules for 3D movement and combat. I won one game by climbing a tower (on the field at my insistence) and my opponent complained that I cheated because there were no rules for that. Unfortunately, the fact that the beginner boxes come with flat terrain maps does not inspire confidence.
- Warjacks! Come on man! If you are going to make a game called "Warmachine", at least make the Warmachines worth playing. I had one guy laugh at me when I put three jacks on the table. Throwing away points, he said.
- More beginner friendly. Each model does like six different things, and has six different attributes on themselves and on their weapons, making it incredibly easy to forget rules while you are playing. Even beyond the combo-heavy nature of the game, there's just a lot to keep in your head about the units themselves. With like 7 or 8 factions and special rules for each faction, each unit, and each model, the game buckles under the weight of what you need to know simply to play a game.
- Not a fan of the combo heavy aspects of the game. I feel that it makes the game too focused on only a few viable army compositions, often forcing you to buy models you don't like and don't want to finish up a combo possibility. It means you can't buy models you do like (like jacks) because they don't fit a specific combo. And it means that not only do new players have to wrestle with a thousand different abilities, attributes, special rules, and faction, they also have to wrestle with the dozen or so major combos for each faction and know the combo breaking tools needed to succeed against them.
- The models need to get a lot fething better. After getting two All-in-One boxes, my opinion of the game and Privateer Press dropped like a rock. I loved the metal models I had, but holy crap, that resin-plastic stuff was/is terrible. I hear they are working on improving on it, so I hope they succeed by Mk3.
I think these are all legitimate criticisms of the current game (MK2). I will say, I started in MK2 and it wasn't nearly as "bad" at the start as it is now. So, hoping this reset does similar as that one did 6 years ago!
I have had the most fun playing 35 point games, mostly because it's faster. If they're streamlining the game, maybe non-tourney-players will be able to have a game in a true "skirmish" amount of time, even at 50 points. I'm hopeful, and definitely going to be doing a journeyman league locally to try out the new rules
My personal wish, as others have said, is likewise a less "combo" oriented game.
I want Warcaster choice to influence my play-style, and not expressly build my list for me.
Rebalancing everything should mean a fighting chance that every unit is viable in a list, vaguely suited to that style.
I just don't want another game where there is one absolute "right" list to build around a given model. If I make a melee minded grind list, I want it to work with lots of options, not just XYZ.
If they pull back the focus (pardon the fun), and make casters/locks more based on driving/fueling their jacks, maybe it means units will be able to do more work all on their own, as they really should be able to.
Hah - as usual PP's site has taken a dump due to high traffic.
But I think this has been expected for a while now - people have been noticing on the PP boards that we had no knowledge of any releases past May, which is unusual.
I am a bit surprised (worried?) about the lack of a public beta test this time around. That seems like such a good idea of any big game revision.
And yay - more battleboxes, even cheaper than before will be a nice way for me to pad out my armies cheaply - which will kinda make up for the annoyance of having to buy so many cards again.
I hope they let you buy individual cards again from their webstore for a while. I have a lot of minis - but I really have just a few from EVERY faction. So I'd have to buy ALOT of card decks and get stuck with a TON of leftover cards for minis I don't have.
Like I have a decent amount of Khador and Trollblood minis - but basically every other faction I have the battlebox for, plus one or two minis maybe.
I am worried now that will be the same bendy plastic they use for their board games.
Simon has confirmed they are PVC.
UGH, whyyyyyyyyy. One of my biggest issue with PP's miniatures is that crappy plastic they're using - at least a few of the new jack kits are in GW-style hard plastic. I wouldn't have minded the starter boxes retailing for $55 or $60, as long as they were in decent materials.
gunslingerpro wrote: First downside, PPS Simon on there forum has stated War Room purchases will have to be made again. However, there will be a discount for people buying factions they already owned in MKII.
For some reason, that makes me irrationally annoyed. I don't know why, because I have no problem buying new cards or army books or rule books, but the thought of paying for a digital update just sticks in my craw. I'm stuck in the old economy.
Prolly in the minority on this but I really hope they redo the MERCs faction and make it work more like minions where it's just a couple of mini-factions. All that contract stuff is needlessly complicated.
Then hopefully we could get a few Merc/Minion battleboxes.
Other than that - I feel like my wishlist is mostly what everyone wants. Streamlining rules, less combo stacking, more warjacks/beasts on the field, decent terrain rules, making unit types like artillery useful, etc.
Wait until other people get the rules or they release them free online.
Try them.
If I like them get the faction deck for my Menoth
Continue to buy next to nothing as most of it is PVC crap.
Is there going to be terrain for the game? The "two trees and a hill" setup was extremely off putting for a game. I want spectacle but it seems like terrain was frowned on and dispensed with.
They only ever said WarRoom updates were free for that edition of the rules, to be fair:
'Full faction decks for both WARMACHINE and HORDES will be available as additional downloads for $6.99. Every deck will include all currently released stat cards for that faction as well as new model updates for the life of the current rules set.'
http://privateerpress.com/warroom
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Schmapdi wrote: Prolly in the minority on this but I really hope they redo the MERCs faction and make it work more like minions where it's just a couple of mini-factions. All that contract stuff is needlessly complicated.
Then hopefully we could get a few Merc/Minion battleboxes.
Other than that - I feel like my wishlist is mostly what everyone wants. Streamlining rules, less combo stacking, more warjacks/beasts on the field, decent terrain rules, making unit types like artillery useful, etc.
The contracts are essentially the same as the minion pacts, there's just more crossover.
ImAGeek wrote: They only ever said WarRoom updates were free for that edition of the rules, to be fair:
'Full faction decks for both WARMACHINE and HORDES will be available as additional downloads for $6.99. Every deck will include all currently released stat cards for that faction as well as new model updates for the life of the current rules set.'
http://privateerpress.com/warroom
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Schmapdi wrote: Prolly in the minority on this but I really hope they redo the MERCs faction and make it work more like minions where it's just a couple of mini-factions. All that contract stuff is needlessly complicated.
Then hopefully we could get a few Merc/Minion battleboxes.
Other than that - I feel like my wishlist is mostly what everyone wants. Streamlining rules, less combo stacking, more warjacks/beasts on the field, decent terrain rules, making unit types like artillery useful, etc.
The contracts are essentially the same as the minion pacts, there's just more crossover.
I keep hearing mixed messages. Someone elsewhere was saying they confirmed those of us with the "everything bundles" from way back when, WOULD be getting War-room upgraded to Mk3 for free.
Wow, so everyone that was upset with PP is suddenly back in their camp?
On principles alone I'm going to give it a pass. Let alone the frustration of needing to repurchase things tentatively. I suppose I need to figure out if there's a good secondary market for all my old metals.
Regarding War Room:
War Room has undergone a tremendous amount of new development on the back end as well as adding new features. This is a new edition of WARMACHINE and HORDES with all new decks, and just as you’ll need new faction decks for your army, you’ll need new faction packs in War Room. In consideration of existing players who have used War Room in the past, there will be a discount for faction decks that you have previously purchased. As well, players who purchased a WARMACHINE or HORDES Mk II deck after January 1st, 2016, will receive the new edition equivalents free of charge.
Haven't finished trawling the PP thread yet, but there's that at least.
MLaw wrote: Wow, so everyone that was upset with PP is suddenly back in their camp?
On principles alone I'm going to give it a pass. Let alone the frustration of needing to repurchase things tentatively. I suppose I need to figure out if there's a good secondary market for all my old metals.
You're assuming that everyone who was unhappy are the same people who are happy now.
Things I'm hearing on my local FB group from a guy listening to primecast:
-Casters getting a lot more free jack points
-point scale has been doubles (i.e. 2 point solo is now 4 points, if I'm understanding correctly)
-pre-measure is a go.
Love the doubling of the point scale. Too many things that were 1,2,3 points were costed off but couldn't be increased or decreased really without making them OP/UP.
God damn PP, before from their announcement to punish retailers for discounting their products had made put me off getting into the game but now the new battleboxes have me excited again.
Guess I will just wait and see what happens when its released.
Ah so, the point emerges. Going to be interesting to see if PP can address the flaws of their product and will they finally resort to retiring models or will the product range just continue to grow and the metagame spin off into an ever thickening pile of combos.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Ah so, the point emerges. Going to be interesting to see if PP can address the flaws of their product and will they finally resort to retiring models or will the product range just continue to grow and the metagame spin off into an ever thickening pile of combos.
They've no intention of retiring anything. Everything will have new stat cards.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Also apparently the flee test are gone. At least Fear and Terror are both confirmed gone.
That's a shame. Sometimes something terrifying should definitely make infantry run.
The reasoning given was that having a single dice roll invalidate a whole unit of ten models that the player had to assemble and paint and everything, before they got to do anything, was unfun (and that we are playing heroes, goddamit!)
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Also apparently the flee test are gone. At least Fear and Terror are both confirmed gone.
That's a shame. Sometimes something terrifying should definitely make infantry run.
The reasoning given was that having a single dice roll invalidate a whole unit of ten models that the player had to assemble and paint and everything, before they got to do anything, was unfun (and that we are playing heroes, goddamit!)
gunslingerpro wrote: Things I'm hearing on my local FB group from a guy listening to primecast:
-Casters getting a lot more free jack points
-point scale has been doubles (i.e. 2 point solo is now 4 points, if I'm understanding correctly)
-pre-measure is a go.
Jacks also get 1 free focus for simply being in their caster's control area
Something about Warlock's fury increasing (or still being able to get fury) when their warbeasts die.
2 year timeskip in the background too. Also appears Leto is dead (or not ruling Cygnar at least).
- Point values are doubling (average game 100 points, but the number of models remains the same)
- Most casters will have 28 - 30 warjack / warbeast points!
- Pre-measuring is confirmed (thank goodness - less arguments!)
- Auto-focus for warjacks for being in warcaster's control area
- 1 free fury per dead beast for warlocks?
Need to listen to it myself to confirm, but sounds great so far!
Copy / paste this time (from Faultie, not sure if it's his original text though):
Full model rebalance
Point scale increased. 50 -> 100 to allow more nuance in point cost (*same number of models roughly*)
All Warjacks start with a free focus for being in their warcasters control every turn.
'Spirit Bond' allows warlocks *some* fury as their beasts die.
Far more WarJack/Beast points!
Some huge bases were too conservative in rules.
#** UNIVERSAL PREMEASURING**
No fear, no terror
Huge base changes: To feel like 'the monsters of battle'.
Fluff changes.....
More novels, fluff moved more heavily towards Skull Island Expeditions.
2 year time jump
'Rulership change in Cygnar'
"No favorite character is safe." "We've taken off the safety net"
#**5th Hordes Faction previewed at Lock and Load 2016, for sale at L&L2017**
There will be lead ups for each faction in terms of what changed
It is exciting news for a non PP player. My biggest issue are the models; very hit or miss. Some of the new models look pretty decent. I am cautiously optimistic.
- Point values are doubling (average game 100 points, but the number of models remains the same)
- Most casters will have 28 - 30 warjack / warbeast points!
If a warcaster received that many 'jack points wouldn't that essentially make most battlegroups free? Warjacks were falling in the 5-12 point range for MKII, even accounting for the doubling of points values that is what? 2-3 "free" 'jacks on the table.
I am curious if that change is meant to help the game or if it is meant to simply enlarge army model counts and sell more models.
- Point values are doubling (average game 100 points, but the number of models remains the same)
- Most casters will have 28 - 30 warjack / warbeast points!
If a warcaster received that many 'jack points wouldn't that essentially make most battlegroups free? Warjacks were falling in the 5-12 point range for MKII, even accounting for the doubling of points values that is what? 2-3 "free" 'jacks on the table.
I am curious if that change is meant to help the game or if it is meant to simply enlarge army model counts and sell more models.
Yes that is exactly what is happening. All of the new battleboxes are essentially 0pts when you factor in the jack/beast points. They've been specifically designed that way.
(New to DakkaDakka - Was in Tokyo for 5 years and had to give up the hobby. Just got back in and bought $300 of Farrow last week)
Here are my notes with Timestamps
(04:50) Warcasters Gain "Power up" - Each Warjack inside its casters control range gains 1 focus point during the CTRL phase.
(5:10) Warlocks gain "Spirit Bond Mechanic" - As warbeasts die, warlocks can gain additional fury from warbeasts they've lost in the control phase.
(5:52) Lock/Caster bonus points being upped from 6 or 7 to 20-30.
As a result, all the new Battleboxes created for Mk3 have been designed to be exactly 0 Points out of the box.
(11:12) Pre-Measuring Now allowed in game
"We've touched on a lot of big changes before... but measuring is something that's going to be a change for people. But what was one of the reasons behind adding Pre-measuring to the game?
It's easier and ultimately already exists"
(13:21) - Fear and Terror removed from game
"The psychology is gone. There's no more fear, theres no more terror. No longer is your entire unit going to be completely useless inside a game due to one single die roll"
(15:00) Discuss changes to Large based models (Colassals etc) nothing concrete.
(17:00) Changes to lore and timeline for story and anthology books.
(18:45) Cygnar Battlebox caster is Maj Beth Maddox (sp?) also Cygnar leadership is changing.
(22:00) Some characters in Lore may "no longer be around" - Brace yourself for Character deaths in books.
(24:30) New products will be available at Lock & Load Sat Evening after Keynote Presentation
(25:30-27:30) New products will be available for pre-sell at Lock & Load '16. You can go over to the store and make a purchase and then they will distribute products at stations later on. The goal here is to not force people to be in line for 10 hours.
(28:40) New hordes faction will be announced at Lock & Load and released around Lock & Load 2017.
"Utterly and completely unlike anything we have ever done. The only rule has been "There is nothing that is too weird to put into this faction"
Cool beans. Maybe the 120ish points worth of Skorne I got with my tax refund will be ready by then. As long as they don't mess with Zaal2's theme army, I'll be a happy dude.
If they're increasing the granularity of point costs by doubling them and thus doubling the standard game size (so 35/50 becomes presumably 70/100) everything remains roughly the same.
Some things are not going to be literally double their cost. The specific example they used was a Juggernaut vs Conquest. Conquest will cost 4 times as much as a Jugger and will also be as powerful to match. Currently you can get almost 3 Juggers for the cost of 1 Conquest and the 3 Juggers can easily scrap that. The increase in granularity will help address this.
I'm glad they conceded that they were too careful with Colossals/Gargantuans. I still can't believe I bought the wife an Archangel, and what a terrible, worthless model it ended up being. :-p
So far, no talk about the game even slightly pulling back from combo-mania, which is disappointing. My number one reason for disliking the game really did stem from how specific lists had to be to be "decent". Player needed to begin their turn, activate several specific units, in a specific order, to carry out essentially the one function a different unit would then fulfill. At that point you had either answered your opponents list/unit or you didn't.
I always feel like Warmahordes is a game with too few correct answers, and essentially is unplayable if you try to just take "ok" answers.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So far, no talk about the game even slightly pulling back from combo-mania, which is disappointing. My number one reason for disliking the game really did stem from how specific lists had to be to be "decent". Player needed to begin their turn, activate several specific units, in a specific order, to carry out essentially the one function a different unit would then fulfill. At that point you had either answered your opponents list/unit or you didn't.
I always feel like Warmahordes is a game with too few correct answers, and essentially is unplayable if you try to just take "ok" answers.
While I don't disagree that more 'correct' options are always good, the combo nature of Warmahordes is precisely what I like about it over other games, as it makes casualties really matter. You're potentially not just losing a specific model, but losing the synergies that go along with that model, so the wrong unit being stomped on can affect your entire battle plan.
Not excited about having to go out and buy more new cards, though, I have to say. Glad I had only got around to updating my Cryx so far. At least now I know to wait before chasing down the others.
As someone who owns large(ish) armies for every faction in Warmahordes, I'm not excited about buying replacement cards for everything.
As it's just me and the wife who play though, we'll probably stick with MK2. Not like I'll be buying anything new from them after their online pricing hissyfit anyway.
Well colour me excited. I'm liking the sound of everything but pre-measuring, but hey, I'm not a rules developer so what do I know. I just hope they tackled the CRA tax and make Trenchers more fieldable.
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but does anyone know if the new Pime.al will include the additional rules from expansions like Collosals? And if the new faction books will include all the new troops and beasts and such in the MKii expac books?
Faction books should include all existing units, and I expect the new core will have rules for all unit types currently in existence, just like when MkII dropped.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Is there going to be terrain for the game? The "two trees and a hill" setup was extremely off putting for a game. I want spectacle but it seems like terrain was frowned on and dispensed with.
I'm still annoyed by the recent pricing issues, but the little that we have been told about MK3 sounds very promising. I really hope that warjack-heavy becomes as viable as warbeast-heavy.
Laughing Man wrote: Faction books should include all existing units, and I expect the new core will have rules for all unit types currently in existence, just like when MkII dropped.
I do love Warmachine for the technical exercise it is, after my first game 8-odd years ago when an opponent charged up a Centurion some 18 inches and blasted me. Great wake-up to go 'Oh sweet, it's the sort of game where you can really *do* things!'.
That said, I haven't played for over 3 years due to some degree of stagnation. Some of my old stuff is still super top notch, while others will never see the light of day (poor Trenchers). The arrival of so many HUGE models was a big turn-off, as they didn't fit the scale and problem-solving nature of the game, in addition to the realistic logistical transport problem.
Hopefully Mk3 will really resolve much of those issues. That said, I've been more interested after hearing this (more point granularity! Battlegroup focus! 2-3 free Jacks!) than at any point in the last 3 years of largely random unusable (or too usable) Solos and giant models.
I'm really looking forward to this. Mk2 has been getting more and more of a mess with every release so a rebalancing is good. I'm hoping they do it right and less used units start to see the table again.
.Mikes. wrote: Well colour me excited. I'm liking the sound of everything but pre-measuring, but hey, I'm not a rules developer so what do I know.
In my group, since you could just measure your warcaster's control area whenever, they used that as a way to pre-measure attacks. "Oh, just checking my control range... doo dee doo... I'm declaring an attack against this guy who is totally in range, or so I assume". I don't care because I like pre-measuring and any win that was gained from a mismeasure didn't feel much like a victory anyway.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Is there going to be terrain for the game? The "two trees and a hill" setup was extremely off putting for a game. I want spectacle but it seems like terrain was frowned on and dispensed with.
Any word on this?
I do hope more terrain shows up on WM tables now!
I'd like to know too, but I honestly think that Warmachine players don't WANT terrain, and the inclusion of it may be offputting to the current playerbase. Actually, I think most of my complaints/wishes for the new edition are things that the current playerbase would hate, so I'm less enthusiastic about any of them happening.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Is there going to be terrain for the game? The "two trees and a hill" setup was extremely off putting for a game. I want spectacle but it seems like terrain was frowned on and dispensed with.
Any word on this?
I do hope more terrain shows up on WM tables now!
No word that I've seen, but I agree with the sentiment.
People that do pick up games with me always frown when I have at least three forests on a table, a good few walls, and a building or two to break up any open ground. Sometimes I'll throw a hill in the middle flanked by forests.
3D terrain I might add, not the 2d stuff everyone seems to like.
-Edit- I play Cryx btw, so the forests aren't because of "LoleyelesssightLegion"
Pre-measurement is a sign of the times: Your ability to eyeball 11.5 inches isn't a meaningful distinction of skill as compared to your ability to think through how you're doing a task or going about accomplishing a goal.
Likewise, Caster Kill has a very important gameplay mechanism: It allows players on the back foot to have a chance at winning by taking advantage of an opening. It increases the skill ceiling by allowing one to swap to a 'Plan B' if your army got off on the wrong foot and took a bad initial punch, but the enemy overextended doing so.
Generally, all of the 'I got pasted turn 1/2!' arguments come from inexperience.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I do wonder because every game I like ends up adding pre-measuring.
Probably because it used to seem relevant, but it never really was the same arena/skill set as everything else to be able to guess distances compared to smart tactics/list building/playing the odds. I used to be really good at it, but still think it's kind of mechanically useless.
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Killionaire wrote: Caster Kill has a very important gameplay mechanism: It allows players on the back foot to have a chance at winning by taking advantage of an opening
I'd say that almost every game I've played of WM ended in a caster kill. If that weren't the case, then I might agree that it's a nice backup, but usually it's how the game ends, regardless of whether it's an early snipe, a lucky hail mary, or the final blow in a well-executed maneuver.
Personally, I found it extremely boring and was a major contributor to why I stopped playing. I've played similar commander-focused games where they define the list and are the lynchpin if not the strongest, and can both be near-impossible to remove or the game's still winnable without them, and I prefer that style since it makes a more interesting dynamic.
Wasn't "more jacks/beasts" one of the goals of Mk2?
As long as jack's run on a limited resource the game is going to trend towards powerful, efficient, infantry; for any caster that isn't all about jacks.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So far, no talk about the game even slightly pulling back from combo-mania, which is disappointing. My number one reason for disliking the game really did stem from how specific lists had to be to be "decent". Player needed to begin their turn, activate several specific units, in a specific order, to carry out essentially the one function a different unit would then fulfill. At that point you had either answered your opponents list/unit or you didn't.
I always feel like Warmahordes is a game with too few correct answers, and essentially is unplayable if you try to just take "ok" answers.
While I don't disagree that more 'correct' options are always good, the combo nature of Warmahordes is precisely what I like about it over other games, as it makes casualties really matter. You're potentially not just losing a specific model, but losing the synergies that go along with that model, so the wrong unit being stomped on can affect your entire battle plan.
Not excited about having to go out and buy more new cards, though, I have to say. Glad I had only got around to updating my Cryx so far. At least now I know to wait before chasing down the others.
Warmachine has always been M:TG in miniatures form. Why change it now?
Games do go to control points in a timed environment. Or rather,
a player with a control point advantage forces their opponent
to try for some shady hail mary shenanigans that may or may
not work. I still see that as the game being more than about
the assassination.
Caster kill annoyed me, especially when you fail an assasination with your own caster. which is fine......except sorscha failed all her attacks on the feat turn and left the guy alive......seriosuly annoying.
Removing Caster Kill fundamentally changes the game. Same with Caster-centric focus of construction. It's also why 2-caster games are generally a clusterfeck: It messes too much with the core DNA.
Anyway, without Caster-Kill and thus, with a less mechanically precise game, these days I'd prefer to play Dark Age anyway. It's like a more deadly, mutually-destructive Warmachine without any focus on any individual models and instead on a spread of objectives and units with multiple actions per turn.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Caster kill annoyed me, especially when you fail an assasination with your own caster. which is fine......except sorscha failed all her attacks on the feat turn and left the guy alive......seriosuly annoying.
You're playing a game with dice. You can work the odds in your favor for only so long...
Sometimes the sure thing isn't sorscha. Sometimes you freeze them and let your Warjack take over. The higher p+s can be a surer thing if your opponent is stacking the arm.
Killionaire wrote: Removing Caster Kill fundamentally changes the game. Same with Caster-centric focus of construction. It's also why 2-caster games are generally a clusterfeck: It messes too much with the core DNA.
Well, that is right now ofcourse. MK3 can for sure changes things up a bit.
Killionaire wrote: Removing Caster Kill fundamentally changes the game. Same with Caster-centric focus of construction. It's also why 2-caster games are generally a clusterfeck: It messes too much with the core DNA.
Maybe, maybe not. Losing a caster would still be a big deal, but not ending the game when it happened would be a huge improvement, in my opinion. Considering that even the most melee powered caster still crumbles in a single turn when an entire army focuses a full turn on him, the casters are far too squishy to do anything with. Plus, forcing players to live with the consequences of their hail mary plays could be cool. Yeah, you put everything into that turn and killed their caster, but now your own caster is buried deep in enemy territory with no focus and no exit plan.
I'm super intrigued. I've been listening to a ton of WM/H podcasts lately, and thinking of bulking out my Skorne. This actually makes me want to paint up some "for fun" models. Hopefully the game-wide rebalance is effective and some things I like the aesthetics of (Bloodrunners, Rhinodon) aren't such a corner case/suboptimal pick anymore.
I like the idea of "goosing" the hobby aspect too. My last foray into WM/H kind of broke my heart with how much plastic (or only partially assembled!) miniatures were on the table. Made me realize just how much I valued the hobby aspect.
Everything I've heard sounds really good. I really wish they hadn't made that stupid retailer decision, because I haven't been this excited about WM/H in years.
So I'm personally excited, and I like the spoiled changes so far.
On the premeasuring note, I can premeasure in guild ball and I find it makes for a tighter and friendlier game. For example, I know my charge plus melee range, so I can measure it before anything is moved, which takes away the error induced by moving a model, then checking distance, even if it is small.
About terrain: I think that most of the community plays with less terrain then is recommended, especially in steamroller. You need a compelling reason to pick first or pick side, and consider what is near any objectives or zones. Plus it really needs to be asymmetrical, which people don't often do.
As for 2D over 3D terrain pieces, I actually like 2D, since again, it makes for a tighter game. If we're being really honest, good 3D terrain can enhance a game, but if I actually put time into painting an army I like having the visual focus be on my models.
Zatsuku wrote: Everything I've heard sounds really good. I really wish they hadn't made that stupid retailer decision, because I haven't been this excited about WM/H in years.
Hit the nail on the head for me, except for that I just started WM/H last summer. I love the looks of the new Legion and Cygnar Warnouns (my factions, hooray!) and I like the points adjustments. I may be a scrub, but even I can tell some models don't do nearly enough to merit their points and others do far too much for their points. Pre-measuring is sure to cause a stir, but I favor it. Again, I'm a scrub, but I've always looked at no pre-measuring as a silly thing. "I'm a highly trained soldier/kill-robot that specializes in MURDER. Oops, I forgot how far my gun can shoot accurately and totally whiffed that guy."
Also, the argument against Terratiles as a board becomes invalid with Mark III, so that's pretty cool, even if I was totally going to use them anyways.
I'm tempted to buy those two new boxes for me and the Circle for my wife, I just hope I can get our group to play it more, especially since I'm also trying to get them into Guild Ball at the moment...
I was pretty skeptical of pre-measuring when it came to WHFB, but it really seemed like a much smaller deal than I realized. Made for cleaner games, fewer arguments, and there was still plenty of risk management. Muse on Minis had a great discussion about pros and cons in a recent episode.
Grimtuff wrote: Yes that is exactly what is happening. All of the new battleboxes are essentially 0pts when you factor in the jack/beast points. They've been specifically designed that way.
Hopefully free focus for jacks and other changes helps to encourage players to also spend some of their 100 pts into jacks rather than take the free jacks and then infantry like now.
Obviously everybody will take free stuff. Increasing free stuff you get to your army does not make jacks good. It just increases models you need to buy...
Here's hoping they fixed game so jacks/beasts aren't just waste of points!
Grimtuff wrote: Yes that is exactly what is happening. All of the new battleboxes are essentially 0pts when you factor in the jack/beast points. They've been specifically designed that way.
Hopefully free focus for jacks and other changes helps to encourage players to also spend some of their 100 pts into jacks rather than take the free jacks and then infantry like now.
Obviously everybody will take free stuff. Increasing free stuff you get to your army does not make jacks good. It just increases models you need to buy...
Here's hoping they fixed game so jacks/beasts aren't just waste of points!
I believe in the Primecast they stated that the new rules will encourage larger battle groups as the vision for the game has always been about Jacks and Warbeast.
I do wonder because every game I like ends up adding pre-measuring.
Probably because sooner or later the people writing the rules realise how pointless it is to not allow it, as people just find ways around it.
Doubly so in Warmachine where you could essentially pre-measure by checking your control radius anyway.
While I like 'guess' mechanic in principle, my problem with it was that it encourages you to push the rules towards cheating...seen a lots of 'oh, I just forgot this object with known length near the units I need to know the distance between'. It is more fair and friendly when you can just measure everything and that's it.
Also there is a player type who, when they don't know the distance, agonize for AGES over what the distance is and whether they should take the risk...
DrNo172000 wrote: I believe in the Primecast they stated that the new rules will encourage larger battle groups as the vision for the game has always been about Jacks and Warbeast.
True that but they stated they wanted to encourage jacks and beasts in MK2(when that edition came I was most active in WM. Ah the memories) and didn't succeed that much. Sure there's at least one token jack/beast but that's because it's free points you can't use to anything else! You would be silly to NOT take it.
Intention good, whether they succeed is another thing.
overtyrant wrote: Love the game but I've always hated the caster kill = auto win aspect of the game.
"I kind of like Chess but that whole checkmate thing puts me off" (just joking )
Exactly! My main problem with Warmachine is that it feels like playing a game, not commanding a battle. Sure, that victory condition isn't actually part of the core rules, but have you tried getting a game that doesn't comply with tournament restrictions? I get looked at like I dropped my trousers and put my genitals on the table.
It's that "game vs battle" idea that means I dislike removing the last vestiges of a morale system.
novaspike wrote: So I'm personally excited, and I like the spoiled changes so far.
On the premeasuring note, I can premeasure in guild ball and I find it makes for a tighter and friendlier game. For example, I know my charge plus melee range, so I can measure it before anything is moved, which takes away the error induced by moving a model, then checking distance, even if it is small.
About terrain: I think that most of the community plays with less terrain then is recommended, especially in steamroller. You need a compelling reason to pick first or pick side, and consider what is near any objectives or zones. Plus it really needs to be asymmetrical, which people don't often do.
As for 2D over 3D terrain pieces, I actually like 2D, since again, it makes for a tighter game. If we're being really honest, good 3D terrain can enhance a game, but if I actually put time into painting an army I like having the visual focus be on my models.
The thing is, the warmachine setting has so many options for really unique-looking terrain - rail termini, urban combats, some really weird Cryxian settlement, a remote Menite temple in the desert, etc, etc, ... You used to see some really cool table setups in No Quarter, but not any more. I remember playing the Sul campaign that was published way back in 1st edition times - one half of the board was filled with buildings, with a breached city wall, attackers flooding through the gaps, defenders in the rubble and on the walls either side - epic stuff! To me, a setup like that enhances the models, because there's a context to everything. YMMV.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The thing is, the warmachine setting has so many options for really unique-looking terrain - rail termini, urban combats, some really weird Cryxian settlement, a remote Menite temple in the desert, etc, etc, ... You used to see some really cool table setups in No Quarter, but not any more. I remember playing the Sul campaign that was published way back in 1st edition times - one half of the board was filled with buildings, with a breached city wall, attackers flooding through the gaps, defenders in the rubble and on the walls either side - epic stuff! To me, a setup like that enhances the models, because there's a context to everything. YMMV.
This this this! I so much love spectacle of good cityfight. It's my favourite way to play 40k. Warhammer was never really good at that so had high hopes originally with WM. Hopes got crushed :(
I like the video on youtube. It's very funny to see the similarities with Another Game Company.
Did you notice how many times the word "share" was pronounced? And how many times the word "competitive" was present? Yes, it's quite amusing.
The most hilarious part for me was the one talking about personnalising your army. In Warmachine, where each profile is very rigid in the rules and suiting the exact equipment of the miniature. Honestly, if there is a game that would be perfectly fine with prepainted miniatures, it's Warmachine/Horde. You have to take a special character with his own story at a set point in time (favorite weapons included), all units have a profile based on what they are exactly looking and the possibilities for conversion are actually as high as converting your own bike; you may do it, but it's not really meant to.
Warhammer was the game when you could really personnalize your army. Warmachine/Horde was always a game of comboting with very rigid rules/profiles and practically no place for options. Them trying to change the course is very funny to see.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Exactly! My main problem with Warmachine is that it feels like playing a game, not commanding a battle. Sure, that victory condition isn't actually part of the core rules, but have you tried getting a game that doesn't comply with tournament restrictions? I get looked at like I dropped my trousers and put my genitals on the table.
It's that "game vs battle" idea that means I dislike removing the last vestiges of a morale system.
Being forced to defend your general at all costs doesn't seem game-y to me. Maybe it doesn't work as well because your general has to be Privateer Press's character and not yours, but the idea that if your opponent can kill "you", you lose makes sense.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So, as someone newish to Warmahordes, are the "faction decks" just for Warroom or will there be physical ones too?
Both. You can either buy them on Warroom, and they are digital only, or you can buy a physical deck (they exist now, but they will have to become much bigger come June), and you'll be able to have a physical copy instead.
People who bought a Warroom all-deck bundle since Jan 1st 2016 will get a free cross over to the new rules. Apparently.
Killionaire wrote: Pre-measurement is a sign of the times: Your ability to eyeball 11.5 inches isn't a meaningful distinction of skill as compared to your ability to think through how you're doing a task or going about accomplishing a goal.
Likewise, Caster Kill has a very important gameplay mechanism: It allows players on the back foot to have a chance at winning by taking advantage of an opening. It increases the skill ceiling by allowing one to swap to a 'Plan B' if your army got off on the wrong foot and took a bad initial punch, but the enemy overextended doing so.
Generally, all of the 'I got pasted turn 1/2!' arguments come from inexperience.
You're not wrong, but when 50% of your local playerbase are people who meet three-four times a week for multiple games, and you're a guy who gets to play once a month... it definitely makes a game with a stark gap between haves and have-nots.
I understand mind you, but getting to go to a game night, seeing a war-caster you've never seen, and getting turn 1 wombo-combo'd isn't fun for almost anyone... especially if its your only chance to play for some time.
You're not wrong, but when 50% of your local playerbase are people who meet three-four times a week for multiple games, and you're a guy who gets to play once a month... it definitely makes a game with a stark gap between haves and have-nots.
I understand mind you, but getting to go to a game night, seeing a war-caster you've never seen, and getting turn 1 wombo-combo'd isn't fun for almost anyone... especially if its your only chance to play for some time.
I'm not sure what you even can do about that, though. People who play the game more will likely become better at it. If you play once a month and don't really keep up with new releases then you're at a disadvantage regardless of what the game is.
Rosebuddy wrote: I'm not sure what you even can do about that, though. People who play the game more will likely become better at it. If you play once a month and don't really keep up with new releases then you're at a disadvantage regardless of what the game is.
You're correct in that, but some games are certainly more forgiving than others, and some games you can trot out an older list or what have you and still have an enjoyable and vaguely competitive game. WM/H is probably the least forgiving mini game going for this sort of thing. And that's not a bad thing as such for those that are into it, but makes playing it occasionally vs peeps who play alot more often sometimes provides a frustrating or "unfun" experience. I've found playing WH/H is either "all in" or not at all.
You're not wrong, but when 50% of your local playerbase are people who meet three-four times a week for multiple games, and you're a guy who gets to play once a month... it definitely makes a game with a stark gap between haves and have-nots.
I understand mind you, but getting to go to a game night, seeing a war-caster you've never seen, and getting turn 1 wombo-combo'd isn't fun for almost anyone... especially if its your only chance to play for some time.
I'm not sure what you even can do about that, though. People who play the game more will likely become better at it. If you play once a month and don't really keep up with new releases then you're at a disadvantage regardless of what the game is.
Agreed, but the hyper competitive nature of the game, an insta-win/loss condition, and having about a million super-combos that can only be memorized, makes for an experience where the gulf between players of different skills is much, much wider.
I play X-wing, and Guild-Ball competitively too, but I see new players finding "some" success much more readily, without necessarily it turning into a game of lucky dice.
For good or ill, and I believe there is room for everything in this hobby so good on them, Warmahordes rewards particularly hardcore players who will make it their sole game/hobby.
Warmahordes really has very little casual play, just competitive play at different levels. It's one area where the Magic analogy breaks down, in that there is no equivalent to Commander or draft for Wm/H, where savvy, but not hardcore, players can at least hand with the bruisers.
It's definitely limited my interest in the game, as I don't have the desire to become good. I like playing, but I get rolled pretty easily by even reasonably competitive players.
There are actually some alternative game modes of Warmachine.
E.G. there is one without a caster. There are loads of scenarios in No Quarter and so on.
If you dont like the win conditions of Warmachine than, yes, Warmachine is probably not the game for you. But is that different to anything else? If you dont the win conditions of Magic (kill the enemy by attacking his face), what than?
RoninXiC wrote: There are actually some alternative game modes of Warmachine.
E.G. there is one without a caster. There are loads of scenarios in No Quarter and so on.
If you dont like the win conditions of Warmachine than, yes, Warmachine is probably not the game for you. But is that different to anything else? If you dont the win conditions of Magic (kill the enemy by attacking his face), what than?
Then you make mill-decks, etc? :-p There ARE other ways to win in Magic, so that analogy isn't quite apt.
I get your point though. :-) Again, not criticizing, its just a little "exclusive" and a little off-putting for those who won't, or can't commit THAT level of hardcore time to a given system. Others are just a more granular experience where it can be enjoyed by a wider audience.-
Polonius wrote: Warmahordes really has very little casual play, just competitive play at different levels. It's one area where the Magic analogy breaks down, in that there is no equivalent to Commander or draft for Wm/H, where savvy, but not hardcore, players can at least hand with the bruisers.
It's definitely limited my interest in the game, as I don't have the desire to become good. I like playing, but I get rolled pretty easily by even reasonably competitive players.
Does the game support narrative play? I had the book, had a circle force, gave it a try but sold it all as it seemed one dimensional.
If you dont like the win conditions of Warmachine than, yes, Warmachine is probably not the game for you. But is that different to anything else? If you dont the win conditions of Magic (kill the enemy by attacking his face), what than?
Poison counters!!!
I actually quit the Magic scene fairly early on since the game became so competive. I wanted to explore and try out all kinds of weird decks, other just wanted to tourney play which was no fun for me. So that's why WM/H is not for me, even though I like the setting and to some degree, aesthetics as well.
But some people like their wargames hyper-competive and nothing wrong with that. It's like sailing, some sail handicap races with their day cruiser, others want to push themselves with fast racing boats, and really cut-throat hardcore people sail Star. There is room for everyone. It will be interesting to see how PP manages to both make the game more streamlined while keeping their playerbase happy.
Polonius wrote: Warmahordes really has very little casual play, just competitive play at different levels. It's one area where the Magic analogy breaks down, in that there is no equivalent to Commander or draft for Wm/H, where savvy, but not hardcore, players can at least hand with the bruisers.
It's definitely limited my interest in the game, as I don't have the desire to become good. I like playing, but I get rolled pretty easily by even reasonably competitive players.
Does the game support narrative play? I had the book, had a circle force, gave it a try but sold it all as it seemed one dimensional.
First off, I'd define casual play as a format in which a player can play maybe a few times a month at most, and still play the game with a viable chance of winning. Even in casual play, skilled players will win far more often than not, but there tends to be more luck in casual play, or at least less required knowledge.
In that regard, Wm/H really doesn't have a casual outlet. I was going to joke that playing Wm/H casually is like playing 40k competitively, but that's not really true. Wm/H is all about knowledge: what your army does, what your enemy's army does, etc. You just can't turn that off, even if you build a weaker list.
AFAIK, there is no official narrative rules, but I'm sure there are some out there in No Quarter or fan site somewhere.
Does the game support narrative play? I had the book, had a circle force, gave it a try but sold it all as it seemed one dimensional.
Depends on what you mean by narrative play.
Does the base game let you improve your units in a campaign, or have characters gain new skills or suffer injuries? No.
But PP runs league where players fight to control areas on a map (see below), or get alternate units, or improve units/heroes over the course of the campaign.
At Lock & Load the casual players outnumber the tournament players 3 to 1. Or thereabouts. So there definitely is a non-competitive scene. PP also keeps releasing - typically as downloads, leagues or in No Quarter - scenarios (often with alternate model stats) and now recently campaigns clearly not meant for competitive play.
Cause they're a limited release and on their way to being squatted it seems
I guess I won't be buying the new Prime Conflux that comes out a month after MkIII drops, then. First new model in the CoC range not in their original book.
A friend of mine took a break from warmachine. Maybe 18 months. His favorite type of game is a 50 point game where you fight a battle with a variety of stuff. The guy who talked him into giving the game another shot took an Earth Breaker, Ossrum, Thor & McNail and assassinated him on the top of turn 2. So they deployed, he moved all his models forward and the game was over and he got to pack up all his stuff. Most of it went on eBay shortly after.
22" threat range line of sight ignoring knock down attacks are just bad game design. Add in the win at all cost culture and I can see why WM/H has the reputation it does.
This new edition is the only reason I haven't started selling my stuff. I'm willing to let them have another shot at fixing this game.
Sarouan wrote: The most hilarious part for me was the one talking about personnalising your army. In Warmachine, where each profile is very rigid in the rules and suiting the exact equipment of the miniature. Honestly, if there is a game that would be perfectly fine with prepainted miniatures, it's Warmachine/Horde. You have to take a special character with his own story at a set point in time (favorite weapons included), all units have a profile based on what they are exactly looking and the possibilities for conversion are actually as high as converting your own bike; you may do it, but it's not really meant to.
Warhammer was the game when you could really personnalize your army. Warmachine/Horde was always a game of comboting with very rigid rules/profiles and practically no place for options. Them trying to change the course is very funny to see.
You are correct that the unit profiles themselves are not changeable. The same unit with different weapon options is an entirely different profile (i.e. weapons on warjack hulls). This doesn't mean that there is no room for customization - unless you consider applying your own paint scheme, kitbashing and model reposes are not examples of customizing your models. Under the tag are a converted Iron Fang Kovnik (changed to an upright stance) and a battlegroup with a converted all-metal Grolar Warjack and a converted all-metal Rager Warjack. YMMV.
MattofWar wrote: A friend of mine took a break from warmachine. Maybe 18 months. His favorite type of game is a 50 point game where you fight a battle with a variety of stuff. The guy who talked him into giving the game another shot took an Earth Breaker, Ossrum, Thor & McNail and assassinated him on the top of turn 2. So they deployed, he moved all his models forward and the game was over and he got to pack up all his stuff. Most of it went on eBay shortly after.
22" threat range line of sight ignoring knock down attacks are just bad game design. Add in the win at all cost culture and I can see why WM/H has the reputation it does.
This new edition is the only reason I haven't started selling my stuff. I'm willing to let them have another shot at fixing this game.
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Same here!
I'm hanging on to my Khador in the hopes that the game changes enough to become interesting to me, but...I'm not that hopeful.
Sarouan wrote: The most hilarious part for me was the one talking about personnalising your army. In Warmachine, where each profile is very rigid in the rules and suiting the exact equipment of the miniature. Honestly, if there is a game that would be perfectly fine with prepainted miniatures, it's Warmachine/Horde. You have to take a special character with his own story at a set point in time (favorite weapons included), all units have a profile based on what they are exactly looking and the possibilities for conversion are actually as high as converting your own bike; you may do it, but it's not really meant to.
Warhammer was the game when you could really personnalize your army. Warmachine/Horde was always a game of comboting with very rigid rules/profiles and practically no place for options. Them trying to change the course is very funny to see.
You are correct that the unit profiles themselves are not changeable. The same unit with different weapon options is an entirely different profile (i.e. weapons on warjack hulls). This doesn't mean that there is no room for customization - unless you consider applying your own paint scheme, kitbashing and model reposes are not examples of customizing your models. Under the tag are a converted Iron Fang Kovnik (changed to an upright stance) and a battlegroup with a converted all-metal Grolar Warjack and a converted all-metal Rager Warjack. YMMV.
Spoiler:
To continue on this....
From top to bottom we have Orsus' Zoktavir's personal Bokur, who has been decked out on Orgoth relics. In reality, no. It's the Avatar's of War Berserker Ogre with a couple of Khador bits added. The model was 99% perfect as is and I just made a big ass buckler/shield type thing to make him "legal".
Next is a converted Gudrun the Wanderer. I always thought he looked a little diddy and needed making more beefy. It's also based on an AoW Ogre, but is instantly recognisable as Gudrun.
Next was an experiment to see if a certain something fitted a warjack just because. What resulted was a Llaelese pattern "duelist" Nomad with it's sword replaced with a wajack sized Rapier made from a hors d'oeuvre skewer. and a sprinkling of Brettonian bits. Plus (to continue the trend of using upside down heads ) an upside down Buccaneer head as I thought it looked little like a Fencer's mask.
Finally we had Drake McBain's personal Nomad "Rattletrap". Only the weapon, Buckler (which was too small. A Steam Tank hatch was put under it) and head are from the Nomad kit. The rest is made from an Ironclad body, Buccaneer legs, random 40k Ork parts and a Khador left arm, a PoM heavy right and even a CoC vector for the left hand. It's a real personal hodge podge that is still recognisable as a Nomad.
Polonius wrote: Warmahordes really has very little casual play, just competitive play at different levels. It's one area where the Magic analogy breaks down, in that there is no equivalent to Commander or draft for Wm/H, where savvy, but not hardcore, players can at least hand with the bruisers.
It's definitely limited my interest in the game, as I don't have the desire to become good. I like playing, but I get rolled pretty easily by even reasonably competitive players.
Does the game support narrative play? I had the book, had a circle force, gave it a try but sold it all as it seemed one dimensional.
Warmachine does not have built in narrative play. Most wargames don't. That said it can be added if you're willing to do the work. My group played a successful narrative journeyman campaign. The guy running ours simply wrote a story to explain why we were fighting who and where each week. It was quite a bit more work than he anticipated. But it was quite fun.
On the thing about "Combomania"
It was fun, but I want stuff that is more moderate and not prone to combos o be viable.
For example, they just releases that minion with the weird mount and is a sniper that had armor piercing. thought it looked cool and may have been a goot trouble shooter. I was immediatly told not to do it because it is too underpowered and you cant do combos with it. kinda a bummer.
MattofWar wrote: A friend of mine took a break from warmachine. Maybe 18 months. His favorite type of game is a 50 point game where you fight a battle with a variety of stuff. The guy who talked him into giving the game another shot took an Earth Breaker, Ossrum, Thor & McNail and assassinated him on the top of turn 2. So they deployed, he moved all his models forward and the game was over and he got to pack up all his stuff. Most of it went on eBay shortly after.
22" threat range line of sight ignoring knock down attacks are just bad game design. Add in the win at all cost culture and I can see why WM/H has the reputation it does.
This new edition is the only reason I haven't started selling my stuff. I'm willing to let them have another shot at fixing this game.
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Same here!
I'm hanging on to my Khador in the hopes that the game changes enough to become interesting to me, but...I'm not that hopeful.
Pretty much why I hate caster kill wins. I always try to go to the scenario win but I can't just ignore the caster if it's in my way. I feel you should be punished for caster kill but not and auto loss, my thoughts were that if you kill an opponents caster you should get some victory points not an auto win, that way you could include more Journeymen and Jack Marshals to help ease the loss of your caster.
hotsauceman1 wrote: On the thing about "Combomania"
It was fun, but I want stuff that is more moderate and not prone to combos o be viable.
For example, they just releases that minion with the weird mount and is a sniper that had armor piercing. thought it looked cool and may have been a goot trouble shooter. I was immediatly told not to do it because it is too underpowered and you cant do combos with it. kinda a bummer.
Then those people don't know what in the hell they are talking about. The Efaarit solo is built for combos, esp with Slaughterhousers with Finisher.
Well they're designed to be a force multiplier for Slaughterhousers.
If your group can't see the use in a fast moving light cav sniper that can be an absolute thorn in the side with removing support solos/UAs/WAs etc. then I don't know what to say. It's not meant to be used in a vacuum.
Well, the combo of a new edition meaning I can start effectively at square 1 and the cheap starters means I've mentally comitted to at least dip a toe into the game, something I've been umming and aahing over pretty much since I started actively gaming again 5 or 6 years ago.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, the combo of a new edition meaning I can start effectively at square 1 and the cheap starters means I've mentally comitted to at least dip a toe into the game, something I've been umming and aahing over pretty much since I started actively gaming again 5 or 6 years ago.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, the combo of a new edition meaning I can start effectively at square 1 and the cheap starters means I've mentally comitted to at least dip a toe into the game, something I've been umming and aahing over pretty much since I started actively gaming again 5 or 6 years ago.
My friend has like 3 armies. we gonna get the decks and try the game out again.
Might even buy his legion army off him.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, the combo of a new edition meaning I can start effectively at square 1 and the cheap starters means I've mentally comitted to at least dip a toe into the game, something I've been umming and aahing over pretty much since I started actively gaming again 5 or 6 years ago.
Which starter you gonna go for?
Legion probably. I'd looked hardest at Circle beforehand, but I'm more impressed by the big flappy thing in the Legion starter than anything else.
hotsauceman1 wrote: On the thing about "Combomania"
It was fun, but I want stuff that is more moderate and not prone to combos o be viable.
For example, they just releases that minion with the weird mount and is a sniper that had armor piercing. thought it looked cool and may have been a goot trouble shooter. I was immediatly told not to do it because it is too underpowered and you cant do combos with it. kinda a bummer.
This is about the third or fourth time you've mentioned jerky behavior by the people you know that play warmahordes. I have my problems with the game, but I think you just know some people that aren't a lot of fun.
I like pretty much all the new caster models, it's gonna be hard for me to choose which starters to get (and gonna be hard not to start all the factions I know I shouldn't start).
ImAGeek wrote: I like pretty much all the new caster models, it's gonna be hard for me to choose which starters to get (and gonna be hard not to start all the factions I know I shouldn't start).
TheCustomLime wrote: And thus PP proves that the best way to get gamers to forget about anti-consumer policies is to wave shinies in front of their faces.
Yeah basically, rationally I know I should probably just boycott cause I don't agree, but I'm just fan boy and can't stop my excitement.
In the end I decided I'm going to take the same approach to this new edition of WM/H as I do to historical miniature games. Not caring about any connection between miniature manufacturer and rules producer.
So if I want to make a Cryx army but don't like mechanithralls made of PVC, I can go get whatever zombie miniatures I want and whatever 40k power fist bitz I want and make my own. There are loads of ways to modify any robot miniature I want to be steam powered and have the right weapons. If I want Nyss Hunters, maybe I'll use Dark Eldar Wyches as the basis of a conversion as I don't like the hobgoblin look of the PP ones. I'll likely get either the printed cards for the faction or the warroom and have the rules all handled.
I don't play in tournaments, so the whole official model thing doesn't matter to me at all. I also think that painting style and consistent basing does more than enough to tie very different miniatures together.
TheCustomLime wrote: And thus PP proves that the best way to get gamers to forget about anti-consumer policies is to wave shinies in front of their faces.
TheCustomLime wrote: And thus PP proves that the best way to get gamers to forget about anti-consumer policies is to wave shinies in front of their faces.
I thought about it, and looking at PP's actions over the last year or so, I think they're trying to actually cash in on their goodwill and community, and bring in more money. PVC infantry are harder to strip than metals, and if they break or miss pieces, there is no bitz service to complete them, which cuts into the secondary market (a huge issue in WM/H). A new edition brings the usual influx of cash from new books, but they also get to sell new cards and warroom decks, by placing new casters in the Battle Boxes they'll sell more of those, and with a reset points cost and rules balance, they can start selling models that haven't moved much in MKII.
The move to cut online discounts doesn't make them money, in fact, it does the opposite, but I think PP is smart enough and data driven enough to know who is buying and why, and a new edition and new organized play support always gets stores more excited to run things.
TheCustomLime wrote: And thus PP proves that the best way to get gamers to forget about anti-consumer policies is to wave shinies in front of their faces.
The hobby is buying PP models. Ethics take a back seat.
MattofWar wrote: In the end I decided I'm going to take the same approach to this new edition of WM/H as I do to historical miniature games. Not caring about any connection between miniature manufacturer and rules producer.
So if I want to make a Cryx army but don't like mechanithralls made of PVC, I can go get whatever zombie miniatures I want and whatever 40k power fist bitz I want and make my own. There are loads of ways to modify any robot miniature I want to be steam powered and have the right weapons. If I want Nyss Hunters, maybe I'll use Dark Eldar Wyches as the basis of a conversion as I don't like the hobgoblin look of the PP ones. I'll likely get either the printed cards for the faction or the warroom and have the rules all handled.
I don't play in tournaments, so the whole official model thing doesn't matter to me at all. I also think that painting style and consistent basing does more than enough to tie very different miniatures together.
Haha, my Nyss hunters (except Celina) all have dark elder heads. I think they look much better and are still tournament legal.
MattofWar wrote: In the end I decided I'm going to take the same approach to this new edition of WM/H as I do to historical miniature games. Not caring about any connection between miniature manufacturer and rules producer.
So if I want to make a Cryx army but don't like mechanithralls made of PVC, I can go get whatever zombie miniatures I want and whatever 40k power fist bitz I want and make my own. There are loads of ways to modify any robot miniature I want to be steam powered and have the right weapons. If I want Nyss Hunters, maybe I'll use Dark Eldar Wyches as the basis of a conversion as I don't like the hobgoblin look of the PP ones. I'll likely get either the printed cards for the faction or the warroom and have the rules all handled.
I don't play in tournaments, so the whole official model thing doesn't matter to me at all. I also think that painting style and consistent basing does more than enough to tie very different miniatures together.
Haha, my Nyss hunters (except Celina) all have dark elder heads. I think they look much better and are still tournament legal.
I've built something like four units of Nyss Hunters with Dark Eldar heads for other people in addition to the unit for myself.
Also as previously mentioned, the Efreet Scout is pretty awesome.
With the addition of Power Up, every warjack with a functional cortex in its warcaster’s control range (yes, it is control range now) gains a focus point at the start of the Control Phase. The warcaster can then allocate up to two additional focus points to each warjack in its battlegroup. We have found that this one change to the rules has vastly improved the effectiveness of warjacks, making larger battlegroups not only viable but a nightmare for the opposition. No more trying to decide whether you want your warcaster to cast another Arcane Bolt or you want your Charger to run. Now you play with the pedal to the metal at all times!
Not to see it left in the dust, we also took a good long look at the fury mechanics and eventually settled on the addition of Soul Bond, a rule stating that in addition to the fury a warlock leeches each turn, that warlock also can gain up to one additional fury point for each of his light, heavy, and gargantuan warbeasts that have been destroyed or removed from play during the game. It seems warbeasts now continue to serve their masters from the grave, at least for a little while. Soul Bond offsets a lot of the late-game weaknesses in the fury mechanic, keeping your warlock in the game until the bitter end.
Sorry, the souls of lesser warbeasts do not seem to be so potent.
While game changing in their own right, these two new rules are among the many additions we have made to the new editions of HORDES and WARMACHINE. The rules have been streamlined and honed to a razor’s edge.
I just wanted to jump in here because I feel like I should have addressed these questions in my Insider. My apologies for neglecting to explain the changes to monstrosities and vectors. Not being warjacks, Cephalyx monstrosities do not benefit from Power Up. Instead, a monstrosity gains 1 focus point each time it suffers damage as a result of a continuous effect or from an attack (whether made by a friendly model or an enemy). And instead of having these focus points removed during the Maintenance Phase, monstrosities retain their focus points until they have been spent.
Likewise, Power Up does not affect the vectors of the Convergence of Cyriss (which are actually considered warjacks in the new edition, albeit warjacks without a cortex). Instead they rely on Focus Induction to keep the focus flowing. Focus Induction now simply states: “When a Convergence warjack spends a focus point during its activation, you can give a focus point to another Convergence warjack if the two are in the same battlegroup and are within 6˝ of one another.” That’s it. So, one warjack can spend all of its focus to fill up the next warjack and so on until the same 3 focus points have flowed through every warjack in your battlegroup.
I think these differences really help add flavor to the Cephalyx and Convergence and truly set them apart from the other Factions in the game. And rest assured, they certainly have been taken into account with regards to the balance of their armies.
novaspike wrote: It's over on the gen. discussion on the PP boards, but according to twitter, page 5 is dead.
Should be relevant here since that came up a few times in this thread.
It's kinda too bad - because it nicely encapsulated the spirit of the game (play aggressively, etc) but I can see it being used by dickish people to justify dickish behavior (even though it also specifically said "page 5 is not an excuse to be a jerk) - so it's probably better off gone.
novaspike wrote: It's over on the gen. discussion on the PP boards, but according to twitter, page 5 is dead.
Should be relevant here since that came up a few times in this thread.
It's kinda too bad - because it nicely encapsulated the spirit of the game (play aggressively, etc) but I can see it being used by dickish people to justify dickish behavior (even though it also specifically said "page 5 is not an excuse to be a jerk) - so it's probably better off gone.
I've always seen Page 5 as very tongue-in-cheek. Play your best game possible, be a great player, our game kicks the butts of all the other wargames out there! Go Warmachine! From what I've seen online though, it seems a lot of gamers end up with local players who actually see Page 5 as that excuse to be a jerk, more in the vein of "Play well, be a great opponent, don't be a jerk(wink wink nudge nudge)."
Mr. Grey wrote: From what I've seen online though, it seems a lot of gamers end up with local players who actually see Page 5 as that excuse to be a jerk, more in the vein of "Play well, be a great opponent, don't be a jerk(wink wink nudge nudge)."
Exactly - and anything that is "open to abuse" like that (even if it's completely not the designer's intention) should be avoided. I came into Warmachine in MK2, and the page already seemed like a needless holdover from MK1 that required wayyyy too many qualifications to avoid abuse. Instead they could have just said something simple or related to the gameplay, like:
"In this game, we encourage players to take full advantage of anything and everything possible in the ruleset. Want to pick up your warcaster and throw them at your enemy to assassinate them out of nowhere? You can go for it! Want to shoot your own sacrificial model to catch a hard-to-hit enemy in the blast? Totally fair game! We pride ourselves on making a tight ruleset, and if it's something you can do in the rules, it's something we want you to feel free to try in game. Just watch out - next game your opponent may have learned the same trick and turn the tables on you!"
Instead, the current page was all about attitude, which is kind of ridiculous, imo... and really not something the rulebook needs to be coaching you on. Fun players are generally fun players regardless of the ruleset, and anything that gave UN-fun players an excuse to act like a jerk (even if unintended) should have been avoided.
So, this is more good news and I'm really looking forward to some new folks trying out Warmachine with this ruleset
Revising Pg5 is a very mature move. It has its origins in a game that was counter culture, was aspiring to be everything the establishment wasn't, and was, taken as intended, a really succinct statement of intent.
WMH isn't that game any more. While it still offers a decent and credible alternative approach, it's now grown into an established player of its own. If the system is balanced and robust enough, players will soon start figuring out they can "play like they've got a pair" for themselves.
Azreal13 wrote: Revising Pg5 is a very mature move. It has its origins in a game that was counter culture, was aspiring to be everything the establishment wasn't, and was, taken as intended, a really succinct statement of intent.
I think this hits the nail on the head. It was a general statement of intent that the game is brutal, the options are wide, and that the game is about the game, but it was also a pretty specific refutation of GW's mentality of painting, theme, fluff, and sportsmanship of the time. GW and PP have converged in attitude over the last 15 years, and I think Page 5 is the equivalent of the middle aged guy in tie-dye.
I never got the understanding of page 5 as 'being a giant dick'. It was always a respect thing: Play your best game, expect your opponent to play their best game. Shake hands after, and don't passive-aggressive moan if things don't go right.
That doesn't mean 'crush a newbie'. That does mean for non-newbies, 'don't throw games, it's disrespectful. Also don't complain about cheesiness, the rules are there, and learn to overcome some new challenge'.
Explains why after my 2nd game I got blasted by a Jack-Missile, and then realized what the focus of the game was about: An exercise to beating the best challenge your opponent could throw at you, with your own skills and wit.
Now admittedly, I'm out of the game for 4 years. But it's a decidedly different type of game than the 'I want a spectacle rather than a challenge' game that's more along the likes of the GW products
Killionaire wrote: But it's a decidedly different type of game than the 'I want a spectacle rather than a challenge' game that's more along the likes of the GW products
And I think that point has been made, and is now pretty firmly entrenched. I bet if you polled 100 tabletop wargamers that have never actually played warmachine what they know about it, I bet they'd be able to generally describe the spirit of the game: competitive, well designed, fast paced, little margin for error, etc.
jimf747 wrote: I wonder if these are going to be pre primed colors, that would be a nice touch. Open the box, glue em together, paint details as you grow in the game
Probably not pre-primed, but molded in colored plastic.
Azreal13 wrote: Revising Pg5 is a very mature move. It has its origins in a game that was counter culture, was aspiring to be everything the establishment wasn't, and was, taken as intended, a really succinct statement of intent.
WMH isn't that game any more. While it still offers a decent and credible alternative approach, it's now grown into an established player of its own. If the system is balanced and robust enough, players will soon start figuring out they can "play like they've got a pair" for themselves.
Play like you've got three of a kind or better, maybe?
Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Dis cephalax even ever get anything after their first initial release?
They got a second warcaster with a later release.
As a Cephalyx player I like how their focus is being done, it works with their fluff and their stats (meh armor, high health). On a slightly different note, do warcasters assign their own focus to jacks (or equivalent) anymore? Or is it only power up (or equivalent) that gives them focus?
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
One of the options for coloring plastic is to add concentrated pigments to the pellets when they're being fed into the injection mold.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
You're wrong. There's not a meaningful increase in cost involved in switching pigments at the same time you're switching the moulds to cast a different faction. The only time it becomes an issue is if the pigment interferes with the material properties of the plastic, as was the case with "Gold Plastic Syndrome".
Pre-colored plastic does seem like a good idea to me. It upgrades the visuals of the game a bit for those who don't want to paint. And that is a big portion of gamers out there. All you have to do is look at a Board Game Geek thread for a game like Sedition Wars to see that there are a lot of people who want to play miniatures games but don't want to get involved in the arts-and-crafts side of the hobby.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Dis cephalax even ever get anything after their first initial release?
They got a second warcaster with a later release.
As a Cephalyx player I like how their focus is being done, it works with their fluff and their stats (meh armor, high health). On a slightly different note, do warcasters assign their own focus to jacks (or equivalent) anymore? Or is it only power up (or equivalent) that gives them focus?
Azreal13 wrote: Revising Pg5 is a very mature move. It has its origins in a game that was counter culture, was aspiring to be everything the establishment wasn't, and was, taken as intended, a really succinct statement of intent.
WMH isn't that game any more. While it still offers a decent and credible alternative approach, it's now grown into an established player of its own. If the system is balanced and robust enough, players will soon start figuring out they can "play like they've got a pair" for themselves.
Play like you've got three of a kind or better, maybe?
Play like you're a human being more likely. And it's a good to lose page 5 in light of WMH getting a reputation of having toxic players. That's regardless of whether their percentage of toxic players is any higher. Good to see them recognizing that.
I'm very disappointed that the new starter boxes aren't HIPS. This seems like it could have been a massive turning point for PP. The quality of their HIPS stuff so far has been great to the point that you can clip it off sprue and assemble it almost without glue - which would seem to fit with the idea of pre-coloured plastic to get you in to the game quicker. With PVC I'll expect a lot of trimming and prep.
But I'm looking forward to the new rules, and it sounds like they're trying to get the game in a more best/jack focussed direction which is always a good idea IMO.
Yes and no. Compared to Mark I, Mark II was practically brimming with Warjacks!
Seriously though, I'm pretty optimistic that even with the few changes that have been announced so far that we'll be seeing a lot more jacks on the table.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
Maybe anecdotally. There's more unpainted armies than say warhammer but I think the majority of people still paint their stuff. I definitely don't think there's enough people who don't for you to say 'In general they don't paint their models', by any means.
The rumoured auto-focus (and I presume something similar like auto-reave/discard fury) is at least a good start. It lets your focus scale with the number of Warjacks you have; rather than each being a drain on your resources to make them do anything, they can each be a little self-sufficient regardless of how many you have.
It will be interesting to see how Convergence do out of this. I can already activate and act with my entire battlegroup with a single focus allocation; with 8 more on the board in Sytherion's army I don't know what will be going on!!
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
Maybe anecdotally. There's more unpainted armies than say warhammer but I think the majority of people still paint their stuff. I definitely don't think there's enough people who don't for you to say 'In general they don't paint their models', by any means.
Yeah. My fully painted and based Convergeance army would beg to differ with the notion that Warmachine players don't paint.
Not rumored, confirmed "Power Up" rule. All jacks with an active cortex get a free point of focus if in their warcaster's control range.
They also made a point of saying how it's a control range, instead of radius. Perhaps they're decoupling the control range from the focus amount, so we can finally have more interesting warcasters that vary in range and focus (and maybe casting ability)?
Convergence gets a redone version of their unique rule. Instead of only one point of focus being passed down between vectors, every focus spent is passed between vectors.
A lot of the players in my local area paint. The main reason I didn't paint was I didn't like how Mk2 was turning out enough to paint.
Vertrucio wrote: Not rumored, confirmed "Power Up" rule. All jacks with an active cortex get a free point of focus if in their warcaster's control range.
They also made a point of saying how it's a control range, instead of radius. Perhaps they're decoupling the control range from the focus amount, so we can finally have more interesting warcasters that vary in range and focus (and maybe casting ability)?
Convergence gets a redone version of their unique rule. Instead of only one point of focus being passed down between vectors, every focus spent is passed between vectors.
A lot of the players in my local area paint. The main reason I didn't paint was I didn't like how Mk2 was turning out enough to paint.
Control range is already the correct terminology, not radius.
In MKI and MKII it was Control AREA, it is now Control RANGE. This is still double the warcaster or warlock's focus or fury stat and seems to just be a terminology thing.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
That is male cow excrement and you know it.
Numerous modelling threads all over the Internet disagree with you. Just because everyone plays with bare metal where you are does not mean it's the norm. I've seen far more unpainted and half assembled GW armies in my time than PP ones. Does that mean GW players don't paint their models? Does it feth.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
That is male cow excrement and you know it.
Numerous modelling threads all over the Internet disagree with you. Just because everyone plays with bare metal where you are does not mean it's the norm. I've seen far more unpainted and half assembled GW armies in my time than PP ones. Does that mean GW players don't paint their models? Does it feth.
Whats the ratio of GW armies to PP armies out there?
WMH is unpainted models on empty tables, from what I've seen. Quite offputting.
Chopxsticks wrote: Pre colored plastic sounds like a waste of resources. I can only assume having 1 single batch of gray plastic is cheaper than having X amount of colored for each faction. Considering people should be painting their models, all that colored plastic is for naught.
In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
That is male cow excrement and you know it.
Numerous modelling threads all over the Internet disagree with you. Just because everyone plays with bare metal where you are does not mean it's the norm. I've seen far more unpainted and half assembled GW armies in my time than PP ones. Does that mean GW players don't paint their models? Does it feth.
Whats the ratio of GW armies to PP armies out there?
WMH is unpainted models on empty tables, from what I've seen. Quite offputting.
Youre the one claiming something without showing proof.
Warhammer and warmachine are in no way different when it comes to painting in my experience.
RiTides wrote: Painting is not the topic of this thread - the upcoming MK3 ruleset is. Let's return to the topic, please
With all due respect, this is about the upcoming MK3 product, which now uses colored plastics unique to each faction. Personally - and speaking only for myself - this is perhaps the feature of MK3 that I'm looking forward to the most. I can not understate how much of a game changer it is. For the group I play with, none of which paint their models and leave most of them silver/gray with the occasional primed black unit, it makes it impossible to visually distinguish the models from one another. When watching two other players play against each other (almost all my models are painted), I can't even tell which models belong to which team. It's visual chaos. It's freaking miniature white noise.
And while my companions don't have a problem with this (sometimes, they just use bases with no models at all), it removes the main reason why I play miniature games. In certain combinations, miniatures lose all visual definition. A model that is primed completely black is just a silhouette. Silver models have less distinct features because the reflecting light illuminates the crevices a bit more. Plastic models, especially the dark grey ones GW uses, do better at contrasts, making the details of the model more apparent. For players who don't want to paint, the colored plastics will drastically improve the visual quality of the game and reduce the difficulty of visually parsing the playing field, and in some cases, may actually be preferable to poor paint jobs. It's a win for all players who either don't paint, don't paint enough, or play with people who don't paint.
Arguing about whether WMH players paint enough or whether GW fans paint more is immaterial though. Regardless of the frequency of painting, if you ever play another player who doesn't paint, you'll still benefit from this change. And honestly, I wouldn't complain if GW made a similar change. My one concern is that it will making painting even more optional than it already is and will ultimately result in fewer painted models overall.
Grimtuff wrote:
Sqorgar wrote:In general, Warmachine players don't tend to paint their models. They care more about the game than the spectacle.
That is male cow excrement and you know it.
No, that was a joke. It was a riff on Killionaire's comment that "it's a decidedly different type of game than the 'I want a spectacle rather than a challenge' game that's more along the likes of the GW products"
Can someone confirm that there will be no fluff in mk3 books? Is it literally no fluff or just no stories [but units fluff and general world/faction fluff stays]?
tommse wrote: Did they state at all that the models are coloured at all? To me it looks like a simple Photoshop to tie the minis to a faction.
That is a possibility. Feels like it wouldn't be worth the effort to color them though, as WMH fans already know what to expect and adding colors that aren't there would be intentionally misleading. But it is possible.
tommse wrote: Did they state at all that the models are coloured at all? To me it looks like a simple Photoshop to tie the minis to a faction.
That is a possibility. Feels like it wouldn't be worth the effort to color them though, as WMH fans already know what to expect and adding colors that aren't there would be intentionally misleading. But it is possible.
People have mentioned it quite a bit on the official forum me not been corrected by PP staff who have been answering questions so I assume it is actually coloured.
A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
Unless I'm mistaken, currently, most models were/are(?) produced in Restic - a resin/plastic mix. Seems like the new box sets coming out will be PVC that's colored.
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
Unless I'm mistaken, currently, most models were/are(?) produced in Restic - a resin/plastic mix. Seems like the new box sets coming out will be PVC that's colored.
"Restic" is just PVC. Like board game plastic but a little stiffer.
Just to clarify - feel free to talk about the new starter boxes, of course . But any discussion of whether people who play one game system or another paint their miniatures more / less / differently / etc belongs in a Dakka Discussions thread.
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
It certainly looks that way. Privateer has confirmed it is the same plastic and the product shots show them as being colored.
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
Unless I'm mistaken, currently, most models were/are(?) produced in Restic - a resin/plastic mix. Seems like the new box sets coming out will be PVC that's colored.
Restic isn't a real material, it's just what people call it. And it's nothing to do with resin, it's just PVC plastic. These new starter boxes are PVC like the last ones were, it's just coloured now.
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
It certainly looks that way. Privateer has confirmed it is the same plastic and the product shots show them as being colored.
Yeah it appears to be. Ed Bourelle is currently in Hong Kong (I think) checking in on their manufacturing process. He said it's the same plastic as normal, but stiffer, and the photos show the cryx caster being a greenish color. He also confirms that they are 'shooting the new battlegroups in faction colors'.
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
Unless I'm mistaken, currently, most models were/are(?) produced in Restic - a resin/plastic mix. Seems like the new box sets coming out will be PVC that's colored.
Restic isn't a real material, it's just what people call it. And it's nothing to do with resin, it's just PVC plastic. These new starter boxes are PVC like the last ones were, it's just coloured now.
Hrm. TIL. I guess I've been reading things wrong all this time. Still hate the stuff.
AdamBridger wrote: A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?
Unless I'm mistaken, currently, most models were/are(?) produced in Restic - a resin/plastic mix. Seems like the new box sets coming out will be PVC that's colored.
Restic isn't a real material, it's just what people call it. And it's nothing to do with resin, it's just PVC plastic. These new starter boxes are PVC like the last ones were, it's just coloured now.
Hrm. TIL. I guess I've been reading things wrong all this time. Still hate the stuff.
I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.
I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.
It's different from the PVC material that Reaper Bones is made of though, non? (Unless I'm mistaken what that material was as well)
I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.
ImAGeek wrote: I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.
No, Mantic called theirs "plastic resin." "Restic" is slang that came about because there were tons of manufacturers trying to foist off their own new casting materials - "Finecast," "Trollcast," "Warcast," "plastic resin," "Bones" and so on - as being the best thing since sliced bread, and they didn't have an ounce of credibility between them. Anything that wasn't HIPS, metal or resin was a crapshoot, so the name "restic" was coined as a word for everything that wasn't one of those three.
I can give a quick summary of materials in case anyone is confused as it can be a bit of a maze!
There are 4 main methods miniatures are produced using:
- Metal miniatures (usually made in a spincast mold, with the mold created from physical masters)
- Resin miniatures (usually made from a "urethane" material poured into a silicone mold, with the mold created from physical masters)
- PVC miniatures, made using injection molding just with a bendier material that is easier to mold for / allows more slight "undercuts"
- HIPS miniatures, made using injection molding with a material that is more difficult to mold for and does now allow any slight "undercuts"
To go through Alex Holker's list:
- Finecast is just a type of resin casting, likely using a silicone mold and urethane material
- Trollcast is a hybrid between the method used to cast metal and traditional resin, and can be more accurately referred to as "spincast resin". It has properties similar to resin, but with its normal formulation is more brittle (the mix can be changed to make it flexible, with other tradeoffs)
- Warcast I do not know as much about, but it is likely a hybrid resin like Trollcast above
- Bones is a type of PVC with miniatures made using an injection mold
I typed all this out to note that PVC miniatures from Privateer Press, when compared to some other methods like Finecast / Trollcast / etc are actually quite different. PVC is almost always going to be injection molded in China, while these other materials are made using methods that are more suited to low volume, and more similar to traditional resin miniatures. If you need to group them into "families", PVC and Bones fall into one family, whereas most other methods fall into the resin family (excluding metal and HIPs!).
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.
Yeah I know, but so are lots of things, most (all?) plastics are polymers. Either way, it's not the same PVC as PP or Mantic, the properties are a bit different.
For reference, Privateer Press itself uses different PVC mixes - their "board game plastic" miniatures for their boxed games are much bendier, similar to Bones. I believe these are all just different variations of PVC material (or something extremely similar in properties). Obviously, getting the right mix is very important, and something Reaper keeps close to their vest regarding Bones!
In general I think the material is best suited to larger figures (especially organic ones). I'm personally really looking forward to the next Bones campaign where I am hoping for some more terrain options which I think their formulation would be fantastic for!
Moving away from metal miniatures was the worst mistake Privateer Press ever made (and that's coming from a Monsterpocalypse fan). The Convergence All-in-One box is perhaps the sorriest collection of miniatures I've ever bought.
PVC can be alloyed with all sorts of other materials to produce different properties, so the term can simultaneously be completely accurate and hopelessly inadequate at describing the material used.
Q: The new battlegroup kits are in crazy faction-specific colors! What kind of plastic are they made out of?
A: The new battlegroup kits are made of the same PVC plastic we've been using for some of our kits for years. They're just color coded by faction to make things even easier for new players getting into the game.
Mantic's restic is the same stuff as PP's non-boardgame plastic. Literally the same supplier.
The material works better with PP's models because they're much chunkier, but warping and difficult mould lines are still a thing (although these are often easier to clean up on most PP models due to the smooth surfaces on a lot of stuff).
- Metal miniatures (usually made in a spincast mold, with the old created from physical masters)
- Resin miniatures (usually made from a "urethane" material poured into a silicone mold, with the mold created from physical masters)
- PVC miniatures, made using injection molding just with a bendier material that is easier to mold for / allows more slight "undercuts"
- HIPS miniatures, made using injection molding with a material that is more difficult to mold for and does now allow any slight "undercuts"
You have to be careful to not mix Methods and Material.
Resin and Plastic are general names of huge amount of different materials, especially in different languages.
While in English/US Resin is also the name of Polyurethane and normally if someone sell Resin it is just that. In other countries Resin is the general name of Thermosetting polymer's (not used to this name, here it is called Duroplast)
The same for plastic, which is normally a Thermoplastic and can be a PVC, PE, PET, PS, PP etc.
And to mess things up those 2 types are mixed together to combine the properties.
So if a company sells Plastic/Resin, it is just that, a mix of a Thermoplast and a Thermosetting polymer.
And also different kinds of plastic can be mixed so that PVC does not need to be PVC if sold from another company
GW's Finecast was bad mix of 2 types to allow to Spin-Cast Resin with the old Molds from metal models, which did not worked out that well.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.
Yeah I know, but so are lots of things, most (all?) plastics are polymers. Either way, it's not the same PVC as PP or Mantic, the properties are a bit different.
Check my link above. There's different types of PVC.
So are they bendy or stiffer plastic?
(I have come to really dislike Bones for quality painting due to the difficulty of removing mold lines and warping. Still good for cheap bulk minis and for no primer needed.)
Also, color coding factions is a great idea. I wonder if this will carry to blisters and boxes....
jmurph wrote: So are they bendy or stiffer plastic?
(I have come to really dislike Bones for quality painting due to the difficulty of removing mold lines and warping. Still good for cheap bulk minis and for no primer needed.)
Also, color coding factions is a great idea. I wonder if this will carry to blisters and boxes....
They're stiffer than the Bones plastic. Mold lines are still a pain though.
Q: The new battlegroup kits are in crazy faction-specific colors! What kind of plastic are they made out of?
A: The new battlegroup kits are made of the same PVC plastic we've been using for some of our kits for years. They're just color coded by faction to make things even easier for new players getting into the game.
Given that Wyrd is converting their entire (extensive) line from metal to HISP, obviously without going bankrupt in the process, I don't understand why Privateer Press refuses to do the same. Even GW is 100% plastic with new product. Privateer Press experimented with the TEP in HISP and I thought that went fairly well. What is the thinking at PP?
The profit margins for PVC are way higher than HIPS at the same price, and PP's got enough die-hard fans that they'll eat up overpriced material without it hurting them that some hate the material and won't buy it.
The profit margins for PVC are way higher than HIPS at the same price, and PP's got enough die-hard fans that they'll eat up overpriced material without it hurting them that some hate the material and won't buy it.
Wyrd isn't making the move for charitable reasons. They clearly see HISP as a means of opening themselves up to a broader market and thereby making more money. This logic and the math supporting it should apply to PP as well. At least that's what common sense would seem to dictate.
Q: The new battlegroup kits are in crazy faction-specific colors! What kind of plastic are they made out of?
A: The new battlegroup kits are made of the same PVC plastic we've been using for some of our kits for years. They're just color coded by faction to make things even easier for new players getting into the game.
Given that Wyrd is converting their entire (extensive) line from metal to HISP, obviously without going bankrupt in the process, I don't understand why Privateer Press refuses to do the same. Even GW is 100% plastic with new product. Privateer Press experimented with the TEP in HISP and I thought that went fairly well. What is the thinking at PP?
They've got a few models in HIPS now (TEP, Meat Thresher, Stormclad/Reliant, Kodiak/Grolar, upcoming Mad Dog/Rager/Beserker, Prime Axiom/Prime Conflux, Kraken/Sepulcher, probably the Desert Hydra as we've seen its head in HIPS, presumably Indictor and Inflictor as the equivalents from the other factions are in HIPS). They're getting there but there seems to be a really long lead time on the HIPS stuff so I'm assuming they're still having some kind of manufacturing difficulty of some description.
I'm sure it's just a cost benefit analysis based on their particular
needs. They need this much done of this amount of material
and it's not always a good idea cost or time wise for them to
invest fully in HIPS.
It could just be that PP doesn't think their plastic sucks as much as everyone else in the world or think that the quality of the models isn't too important to their fans - which is kind of true. If you never intend to paint your miniatures, then the quality of plastic being used is good enough. I mean, when you've got players who are just as happy with using bases without models as with, how hard do you really have to try really?
Honestly, I think PP is going to push Warmachine more towards boardgames than miniature games. I know a lot of Warmachine players who treat the game like Magic the Gathering and have zero interest in the pageantry of miniatures, so maybe that's not a terrible direction. Couple years from now, the figures will probably be preassembled.
Sqorgar wrote: It could just be that PP doesn't think their plastic sucks as much as everyone else in the world or think that the quality of the models isn't too important to their fans - which is kind of true. If you never intend to paint your miniatures, then the quality of plastic being used is good enough. I mean, when you've got players who are just as happy with using bases without models as with, how hard do you really have to try really?
Honestly, I think PP is going to push Warmachine more towards boardgames than miniature games. I know a lot of Warmachine players who treat the game like Magic the Gathering and have zero interest in the pageantry of miniatures, so maybe that's not a terrible direction. Couple years from now, the figures will probably be preassembled.
They're making a bigger push towards HIPS lately as I said above. I don't think they're heading in the direction you think at all.
Breotan wrote: Wyrd isn't making the move for charitable reasons. They clearly see HISP as a means of opening themselves up to a broader market and thereby making more money. This logic and the math supporting it should apply to PP as well. At least that's what common sense would seem to dictate.
Wyrd started just doing minis, and has always been known for those. PP's been known for competitive rules and framing themselves as the anti-GW. It makes sense that Wyrd would care about its minis more than PP. If it turns out that people don't give a crap about PP's minis other than tokens to push around the table, then maybe it doesn't make sense for PP to cater to people who like their models to be above-average.
Honestly, I think PP is going to push Warmachine more towards boardgames than miniature games. I know a lot of Warmachine players who treat the game like Magic the Gathering and have zero interest in the pageantry of miniatures, so maybe that's not a terrible direction. Couple years from now, the figures will probably be preassembled.
Please, there are plenty of other windmills to tilt at than this one.
spiralingcadaver wrote: If it turns out that people don't give a crap about PP's minis other than tokens to push around the table, then maybe it doesn't make sense for PP to cater to people who like their models to be above-average.
Wow. Are you aware of how cynical your statement is? No wonder GW doesn't see PP as real competition.
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and a sprinkling of Brettonian bits. Plus (to continue the trend of using upside down heads 
The Efaarit solo is built for combos, esp with Slaughterhousers with Finisher.
