Some questions that have been answered by user Warzone Resurrection:
Spoiler:
Q: Does the unicast requires that miniatures have an attached base? Or is it up to client choice to include it or not?
A: Yes it needs to have a base, if provided mini has no base we would need to add it, it's a crucial element in the process.
Q: Do you intend to use this for Wargaming too or just boardgaming?
A: Yes, we are investigating with our partners how wargaming market will react to plug-and-play type of miniatures., based on that data we may release product in fully assembled form.
Q: Will you use Unicast on AVP and Warzone?
A: Not current projects, however we are working on new AvP game with 21 Unicast miniatures, at 49.99 USD price range - think Descent.
Q: SIze wise do you think that the resin used and unicast can be applied on things at smaller scales like in 15mm? Or there is a limit to how thin the resin can go? There was some problems with Facehuggers for AVP correct?
A: We are testing it for a customer that is going onto KS with his 15mm models, 1st test are very positive, however we have to find a solution to thick runner.
Q: Is the resin used similar to the one you currently use, or is it more flexible and bends more?
A: Elements thin as 0.5mm are flexible, however 2.5mm + are hard but not brittle. Material is similar to resin we have used in the past.
Q: Can you cast in Unicast only from a 3d file or traditional sculpts can also be used and cast in Unicast?
A: Only 3D. Process required models surface in 3d form.
Q: Can you cast in coloured resin? If yes, what selection of coulours are available? (no need for exact)
A: Yes, Blue, Red, Green,- only dark colours , for instance no Yellow.
Q: Can this method be used with transparent or tinted transparent resin?
A: No to transparent.
Q: I got from BoW Jezebel article that you do 3D sculpting and printing, if I have files from an artist do you change them to be ready for Unicast? or you submit the corrections to the 3D artist?
A: Yes we can do this, however we would need to charge you work hours, alternatively we can give you guidance what needs to fixed.
Q: Can we get a clarification on the minimum volume, is it 250 models or 250 shots?
A: 250 miniatures.
I’m actually really excited about this. I've been wanting to change over to resin minis for a while, I saw this first on a video interview on Beasts of War and was really impressed. After talking with them all about it I was happy to learn that the costs and everything are also very reasonable. I’m going to be using Prodos for my upcoming Blackwater Gulch miniatures. I absolutely love the fact that my minis will be able to have more dynamic poses and not need to have fiddly little arm bits. I just have a couple more new sculpts to finish, then I’ll be ready to order my sample copies, planning to do a little video showing all the detail with lots of closeups when the time comes.
I have some of their single piece stuff and it's pretty crazy. They should probably stop trying to make their own stuff and just license the process before a competing method appears.
Strange how much this type of stuff sounds like the claims that Tony Reidy (Defiance Games) was making about how Troll Cast material was going to reinvent the miniatures world. Both Prodos and Defiance seem to have similar levels of trustworthiness IMO. No faith int this whatsoever until I see the finished result firsthand and there's not a snowball's chance in hell that I'd back one of their kickstarters.
stanman wrote: Strange how much this type of stuff sounds like the claims that Tony Reidy (Defiance Games) was making about how Troll Cast material was going to reinvent the miniatures world. Both Prodos and Defiance seem to have similar levels of trustworthiness IMO. No faith int this whatsoever until I see the finished result firsthand and there's not a snowball's chance in hell that I'd back one of their kickstarters.
Yeah.. no.. Stop. People are trying to run a smear campaign on Prodos because of one or two bad experiences.
I got my White Dragon 15mm stuff in and you know who cast that? Prodos. The infantry is the best I've bought in 15mm and the hard edges on all the machines are crisp. It was delivered on time and with very little cleanup. So, please.. just stop.
stanman wrote: Strange how much this type of stuff sounds like the claims that Tony Reidy (Defiance Games) was making about how Troll Cast material was going to reinvent the miniatures world. Both Prodos and Defiance seem to have similar levels of trustworthiness IMO. No faith int this whatsoever until I see the finished result firsthand and there's not a snowball's chance in hell that I'd back one of their kickstarters.
Yeah.. no.. Stop. People are trying to run a smear campaign on Prodos because of one or two bad experiences.
I got my White Dragon 15mm stuff in and you know who cast that? Prodos. The infantry is the best I've bought in 15mm and the hard edges on all the machines are crisp. It was delivered on time and with very little cleanup. So, please.. just stop.
Prodos has zero problems taking money and not delivering anything. Warning people about this is not a smear campaign. In fact, not doing so would be rather rude.
Silence only helps scammers.
What makes you guys think this will succeed where Trollcast failed? For that matter, why did Trollcast fail? Hopefully it wasn't because it was invented by a company that can't complete its own Kickstarter...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What makes you guys think this will succeed where Trollcast failed? For that matter, why did Trollcast fail? Hopefully it wasn't because it was invented by a company that can't complete its own Kickstarter...
Apples and oranges in my opinion.
I don't think Trollcast failed. It is a good material utilized through spin casting. The limit is how workload a person can handle, there was no expansion, protection of his "formula" so all the work is essentially done by one person. That is where it failed, the work load and he was overwhelmed. Probably a bit more too it but that is how it looked from the outside. Trollcast provides a great product if you want a multi-piece miniature though spin-casting. There are pros and cons.
I don't think it will revolutionize the market, that isn't the target but it does provide more options. It will however allow options for single piece to be created at a lower cost for someone not looking at steel-mold through traditional injection. The only way for a single piece is injection molding with a high cost mold or paying someone cheap labor to clean/glue your stuff together.
It probably is a very similar formula to Trollcast, although they call it a HIPS/Resin hybrid. The difference though is that it is being injected via traditional injection system, which provides greater control and accuracy. The molds they are utilizing aren't traditional steel mold either, which is where a good portion of cost for manufacturing comes from. That does mean it survives for a smaller amount of runs, my guess would be at 250 runs before the mold deteriorates given the minimum order. Then they have to create a new mold. It won't replace traditional methods as those methods are still improving yearly. The stuff that Ludo Fact puts out this year vs two years ago has improved quite a bit. However someone trying to do a small run needs to get $50-100K just to get enough for the molds vs someone only needing $10K for roughly the same output in a short period.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm still in a wait an see. I have however held the final finished product in my hand and it is solid. They also tend to run their manufacturing business (which I think is under a different legal identify technically speaking if I recall) than the game side (Prodos). They have created quite a bit on that side of the business which appears to be run better.
I see the AVP stuff available in many places.. were there add-ons that didn't get delivered yet or what? I mean.. if the core game did get delivered and people are missing items then saying they got "nothing" is being melodramatic.
As a G&G backer, Salamander Project, Mercs Recon, Monolith Conan, etc backer.. I know about late KS but you can't call a partially delivered KS a non-delivered.
MLaw wrote: I see the AVP stuff available in many places.. were there add-ons that didn't get delivered yet or what? I mean.. if the core game did get delivered and people are missing items then saying they got "nothing" is being melodramatic.
As a G&G backer, Salamander Project, Mercs Recon, Monolith Conan, etc backer.. I know about late KS but you can't call a partially delivered KS a non-delivered.
The core game did not get delivered.
When I say "nothing", I mean exactly that: nothing.
The problem I see is that supposedly the female not-terminator is a one piece cast, arms, shoulder pads and all. I can't even believe how hard that miniature would be to paint like that!!
MLaw wrote: I see the AVP stuff available in many places.. were there add-ons that didn't get delivered yet or what? I mean.. if the core game did get delivered and people are missing items then saying they got "nothing" is being melodramatic.
As a G&G backer, Salamander Project, Mercs Recon, Monolith Conan, etc backer.. I know about late KS but you can't call a partially delivered KS a non-delivered.
I also have recieved absolutely nothing.
You seem to make it a habit of defending companies that don't deliver.
MLaw wrote: I see the AVP stuff available in many places.. were there add-ons that didn't get delivered yet or what?
They have partially completed wave 1, and sent out some wave 2. Wave 3 is still being approved by Fox last I heard.
And yes it is available to buy at retail in many places, this was done so Prodos could make money to afford to be able to ship the KS rewards to backers. They stated some time ago that they had raised enough to ship, but people are still waiting.
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.
As to the topic at hand, it sounds very interesting. I'll be keeping an eye on how it develops.
I should have including this in the first place, though it is linked from the blog post. This is a post from Prodos about this process, which includes pricing details: http://prodosgames.com/blog/prodos-unicast-is-here
One major benefit of UniCast appears to be much smaller startup cost.
Also, I believe there's some rule on Dakka about staying on topic... this thread isn't about their kickstarter.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What makes you guys think this will succeed where Trollcast failed? For that matter, why did Trollcast fail? Hopefully it wasn't because it was invented by a company that can't complete its own Kickstarter...
Troll cast didn't fail per say. Impact minis uses it and so does Raging Heroes (Ed casts all their spun cast resin)--but they don't call it troll cast anymore due to the first Rex Box KS and the Defiance shenanigans.
stanman wrote: Strange how much this type of stuff sounds like the claims that Tony Reidy (Defiance Games) was making about how Troll Cast material was going to reinvent the miniatures world. Both Prodos and Defiance seem to have similar levels of trustworthiness IMO. No faith int this whatsoever until I see the finished result firsthand and there's not a snowball's chance in hell that I'd back one of their kickstarters.
Yeah.. no.. Stop. People are trying to run a smear campaign on Prodos because of one or two bad experiences.
I got my White Dragon 15mm stuff in and you know who cast that? Prodos. The infantry is the best I've bought in 15mm and the hard edges on all the machines are crisp. It was delivered on time and with very little cleanup. So, please.. just stop.
Smear campaign? Please. They've brought this on themselves. There's nothing smear campaign-y about it. We don't deny that their casting quality is awesome (it is as I have a few avp models now), all we (the backers) want is our stuff that we forked out for. In some cases, folks have spent 100s on this and seen bugger all in return apart from "Soon (tm)" comments by Jarek and Michal.
I've talked with multiple companies who have had their miniatures produced and cast by Prodos and while I may have been 'lucky' and simply talked with the ones who have been happy with the results, the overall impression of their business -to-business dealings is positive.
So while there is no denying the fact that some backers don't have *any* of their AvP pledge yet and many are still waiting on some of it.. and there is a disconnect between what they could do, should do and *are* doing about it.. these guys aren't the shysters some people would have you believe.
I've never bought anything and won't. Communities self-police. If people are waiting two years for product they paid for then that's fact, not a smear. Reviews are reviews, and the reviews I hear say stay clear.
It is obvious that Prodos is setting themselves to become manufacturers for hire, including concept art and sculpting.
So far what I hear from various industry insiders they are quite good at this.
Yes, maybe warzone and AVP has created bad blood between consumers but their reputation in companies is at the moment not bad.
Space Crusade seemed odd at first, but once they revealed the models are single pose it was obvious its a showcase product for the manufacturing process.
Siygess wrote:I've talked with multiple companies who have had their miniatures produced and cast by Prodos and while I may have been 'lucky' and simply talked with the ones who have been happy with the results, the overall impression of their business -to-business dealings is positive.
So while there is no denying the fact that some backers don't have *any* of their AvP pledge yet and many are still waiting on some of it.. and there is a disconnect between what they could do, should do and *are* doing about it.. these guys aren't the shysters some people would have you believe.
JohnnyHell wrote:I've never bought anything and won't. Communities self-police. If people are waiting two years for product they paid for then that's fact, not a smear. Reviews are reviews, and the reviews I hear say stay clear.
Prodos seems to be great to work with when you're a company contracting them to cast your stuff for you.
They seem less fun to deal with if you're a customer in general, and KS backer in particular.
Siygess wrote:I've talked with multiple companies who have had their miniatures produced and cast by Prodos and while I may have been 'lucky' and simply talked with the ones who have been happy with the results, the overall impression of their business -to-business dealings is positive.
So while there is no denying the fact that some backers don't have *any* of their AvP pledge yet and many are still waiting on some of it.. and there is a disconnect between what they could do, should do and *are* doing about it.. these guys aren't the shysters some people would have you believe.
JohnnyHell wrote:I've never bought anything and won't. Communities self-police. If people are waiting two years for product they paid for then that's fact, not a smear. Reviews are reviews, and the reviews I hear say stay clear.
Prodos seems to be great to work with when you're a company contracting them to cast your stuff for you.
They seem less fun to deal with if you're a customer in general, and KS backer in particular.
And how they deal with their kickstarter backers is completely irrelevant to the topic of their new casting process and how they deal with their business customers who wish to use it.
And how they deal with their kickstarter backers is completely irrelevant to the topic of their new casting process and how they deal with their business customers who wish to use it.
That is your opinion. Others, including myself, disagree with you. Any company that works with Prodos deserves to know they risk some of the Prodos stink rubbing off on them. Any person supporting Prodos should at least know how dishonest Jarek and crew are. If you choose to still support gak bags, so be it.
I am almost certain the vast majority of consumers who buy from a company that has subcontracted Prodos do not know it and do not care.
Look I am certain the way they botched both kickstarters their fault or not, has created some bad blood and mind you I got my warzone stuff with two years delay because they insisted writing wrong my address no matter how many times I send it to them (was warzone and AVP the response of the UK office that got dissolved?).
But reading the complains especially about AVP in every thread the name Prodos is mentioned becomes quite frustrating.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am almost certain the vast majority of consumers who buy from a company that has subcontracted Prodos do not know it and do not care.
Look I am certain the way they botched both kickstarters their fault or not, has created some bad blood and mind you I got my warzone stuff with two years delay because they insisted writing wrong my address no matter how many times I send it to them (was warzone and AVP the response of the UK office that got dissolved?).
But reading the complains especially about AVP in every thread the name Prodos is mentioned becomes quite frustrating.
It is also pretty frustrating seeing Prodos deliver stuff to everyone except KS backers, and frustrating being lied to.
Again, shining a light on dishonest companies helps the community.
PsychoticStorm wrote: reading the complains especially about AVP in every thread the name Prodos is mentioned becomes quite frustrating.
Maybe if they delivered stuff to their KS backers (the exact same stuff that they are currently sending out for retail), those complaints would be less common?
The tooling for 6 casts is 350. And if you have one mold for 1x each of 6 minis (0.45/mini = 2.7) at 250 minimum (250*2.7=675), then the total minimum is USD$1,025 for 1500 minis (250*6)?
Then add design costs, packaging, etc. Still seems unrealistically low for a min order. Am I miscalculating?
Its a tool it can have up to 6 models approximately so you could have a tool with 6 different models.
And be about 675 (the costs are estimates and averages after all) for 250 of each of the 6 models.
Seems cheap but does not include the cost of concept art, background and actual sculpting, plus any alterations needed by the process and definitely no shipping costs or packaging.
Seems cheap it is not really cheap, but it is affordable and within the grasp of a small company or a really committed hobbyist and I think the small companies are their target with this offer.
Fugazi wrote: The tooling for 6 casts is 350. And if you have one mold for 1x each of 6 minis (0.45/mini = 2.7) at 250 minimum (250*2.7=675), then the total minimum is USD$1,025 for 1500 minis (250*6)?
That isn't entirely accurate. Keep in mind that the 0.46 is based on 6000 shot order, with 6 miniatures per cast for a total 60,000 miniatures. How they got that number isn't entirely made evident although I do think that may including 3d printing costs for masters and shipping. They only show the tooling cost for the mold but say the cost includes the tooling cost and other costs (casting material, 3d printing?, shipping?). We also don't know how many casts a mold lasts, does it last for 250 and they have to retool another? That would be my guess since that is the minimum order.
The actual cost for an order if you are only doing 250, which they didn't explain if that was 250 miniatures (meaning 41/42 casts) or 250 casts (which is 1500 miniatures). However that cost is still a huge step cheaper than doing HIPS or PVC which requires a higher minimum order because of the high costs of tooling. It also is significantly cheaper than just doing multi-piece resin and hiring someone to glue them together to provide a single piece miniature.
MLaw wrote: I see the AVP stuff available in many places.. were there add-ons that didn't get delivered yet or what? I mean.. if the core game did get delivered and people are missing items then saying they got "nothing" is being melodramatic.
As a G&G backer, Salamander Project, Mercs Recon, Monolith Conan, etc backer.. I know about late KS but you can't call a partially delivered KS a non-delivered.
I also have recieved absolutely nothing.
You seem to make it a habit of defending companies that don't deliver.
Since I'm not a backer and don't have time or energy to follow things that are for backers.. BUT.. I see their stuff in shops yet still hear people talking about not getting anything, I draw conclusions. You assuming that I defend companies that don't deliver is rather pointed and if you're going to say like that, you need to be very specific. If you are talking about Titanforge, I find that hilarious since they have delivered.. as far as I know 100%. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]
MLaw wrote: Since I'm not a backer and don't have time or energy to follow things that are for backers..
In reference to AvP the things mostly not delivered yet are wave III. Some orders I believe haven't been shipped because they have a lot more than just wave I or wave II items. I only had wave I and II items and received mine. There are still about 250 backers who haven't received items though but supposedly a 150+ went out. Roughly about 11% still haven't received anything but that number has been going down.
Honestly I think people would be surprised just how many Kickstarters that Prodos has manufactured and have delivered. I'm not saying there aren't issues or that there is definitely some mis-managed business decisions for their own stuff. However as a manufacturer and supplier to other companies there hasn't been as bad of mismanagement. There were quite a few that I didn't even realize were getting stuff from Prodos, most likely because they may have been worried how that may have impacted their own Kickstarter.
That isn't saying there is an excuse, but there is differences in the company from a year ago vs now. If that continues great. If not, then it will become evident fairly quickly but so far on the other business side of things (not their own games) but as a manufacture it has been fairly good. I'm still in a wait and watch though but I'm not about to excuse a viable method of manufacturer completely.
Those figures assume Prodos is actually telling the truth. They've been shown not to do that on quite a few occasions. Honestly, I'd assume a hell of a lot more than ~100 backers still have zilch, TBH.
Literally earlier today, they sent out a KS message to all backers, claiming that everyone who paid their spiffy new blackmail charge before Wednesday had their stuff shipped and should have at least received a tracking number from Prodos. (orders put in thu-fri hadn't been shipped, the rest should be on it's way. Their latest apparent transparent lie.)
Feth, my 'order' was placed on sunday, shortly after the original demand for facilitation payments, and I sure as hell don't have any tracking number yet.
Nothing, nothing they say tracks with observable reality. So honestly, why should we trust the numbers you're naively assuming to be accurate? From what I see, this has been nothing but episode 388212 in Prodos' ongoing web of lies.
It looks really nice - but to TBH - most PVC minis look just fine to me too. It's the cleanup process that makes me hate the material. How hard will this stuff be to prepare for painting?
Panic wrote: Yeah,
Let's stay on topic and stick to the facts.
Prodos are gak company who owe a lot of people.
Panic...
The topic and facts are that when Prodos casts anything, they do an amazing job and this material seems like a really good advancement in materials and technique. I am looking forward to unintentionally receiving even more things cast by these guys in the future.
MLaw wrote: The topic and facts are that when Prodos casts anything, they do an amazing job and this material seems like a really good advancement in materials and technique.
Assuming their claims are honest, which requires trusting a company that seems to be pretty dishonest. I am extremely skeptical of the claim to be able to produce entire models in one piece. Even resin casting and similar methods that allow undercuts still have a limit to what you can do, so how do they get around it? Or do they just put some major constraints on what your model designs can be, much like the old one-piece metal models were really limited in their posing options?
MLaw wrote: The topic and facts are that when Prodos casts anything, they do an amazing job and this material seems like a really good advancement in materials and technique.
Assuming their claims are honest, which requires trusting a company that seems to be pretty dishonest. I am extremely skeptical of the claim to be able to produce entire models in one piece. Even resin casting and similar methods that allow undercuts still have a limit to what you can do, so how do they get around it? Or do they just put some major constraints on what your model designs can be, much like the old one-piece metal models were really limited in their posing options?
Did you read the article? This isn't Prodos claiming anything. Jake Thornton is reviewing what Prodoss did for Mantic (as I understand it). The models don't look like they were designed for that IMO and Prodos did it anyway and the output looks very crisp to me. EDIT: I don't think the models he's showing are from Mantic.. but he doesn't work for Prodos.. he's a game designer and the models look like they're on point to me. Moreover, he even does have a disparaging tone towards Prodos at the tail end of his article with his own doubts about Prodos' practices. He does mention that this could be what they need to dig out of their hole or whatever.
The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.
However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.
In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.
The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.
I have a strange urge to purchase some of these despite everyting...
For scientific purposes perhaps?
I liked my rather large Space Crusade demon I picked up, which while it wasn't a single piece cast (would be tough considering the size) it was still pretty impressive just for the depth and shaping of the body itself.
Now if they'd just bothered to include all the pieces in the first place...
At least with these single cast ones that would be less of an issue!
Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.
More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.
If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.
Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.
Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.
Erebus Studios wrote: The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.
However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.
In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.
The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.
More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.
If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.
Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.
Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.
Could you link? I actually might look at this for a game I'm working on. I've got a few minis to get in production first before switching gears but this material seems to answer a barrier I was encountering.
Erebus Studios wrote: The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.
However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.
In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.
The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.
Prodos are no longer uk based
I was not aware of this.. On their Contact Info they still list:
PRODOS Games LTD
Unit 2, Plot 20
Hawkes Drive
CV34 6LX
Warwick
United Kingdom
PsychoticStorm wrote: Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.
More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.
If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.
Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.
Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.
Whether or not you can trust a company to deliver is always relevant.
They can have the greatest casting and manufactory capabilities in the world - but if you do not get your product then that does not matter.
If the good folks that didn't bring us Ice Age Mammals came out with ADW IceAgeCast, would you trust them?
Folks have reason to be wary. *EDIT* It could very well be that the lesson to be learned is... don't work with Fox....
If anyone is interested I can record a video showing Nyx (one of the one piece unicast minis) that I picked up at Salute.. although I think BoW also showed off the minis on a recent weekender.
I just want to point out. All prodos issues are with direct kickstarter backers. I have never heard anyone having problems getting their stuff when bought off the web store. As stated before they also deliver in regards to business to business deals.
So I think it's a safe bet to say feel free to order stuff off their webstore, but don't touch their kickstarters with a ten foot pole. This is comeing from someone who was involved with the original warzone kickstarter.
I am looking foreword to up coming mini's that will use using this tech. I would love to hear toughest girls of the galaxy 2 will be using this tech lol.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Guys either you like it or not, whatever "iffy" history Prodos may have to the backers of their kickstarters is completely irrelevant here.
More so since they have provided manufacturing for kickstarters other companies did in time so far.
If Prodos was unreliable to companies I would understand the connection, but so far all companies using them were quite happy.
Now on the subject the models cast are what it is, I am not sure how one can claim they lie since this is the real thing reviewed by independent sources, please the bias you have is not helping this thread.
Anyway down on the game design subforum we discuss more about it because from the perspective of a company or from the point of somebody wanting to do something professionally this method provides an affordable solution for models especially for "miniature boardgame" projects.
Could you link? I actually might look at this for a game I'm working on. I've got a few minis to get in production first before switching gears but this material seems to answer a barrier I was encountering.
Erebus Studios wrote: The casting could be the revolutionary thing we need to bring casting up with the level of sculpting that can be done now. As miniature sculpting has far outpaced any casting method if this method truly works as they say , I can see a great opening for board game
producers and miniature producers alike and have a much more reasonable way to mass produce miniatures in.
However as many have stated Prodos do have an iffy history, they have done some things very well but at the same time have some major problems that they need to work on to regain trustworthiness. So I am very interested in this but will wait to see how It turns out with
other companies commissioning them first. Also however their are the issues of currency exchange , being their in the UK it will not be as cheap as it first appears , which is not their fault but the over all UK Vat tax system.
In the end I truly want to see this before looking in further but if it is true then without doubt many of us will be contacting them I am sure in the future for these services. however until then we will need to see results from several companies working with them before ourselves would invest in the casting.
The ball is in their park and they can truly knock things out of the field if this is true and they do it right.
Prodos are no longer uk based
I was not aware of this.. On their Contact Info they still list:
PRODOS Games LTD
Unit 2, Plot 20
Hawkes Drive
CV34 6LX
Warwick
United Kingdom
+48 673 533 839
People out to 'misrepresent' really need to pay closer attention to the details..
I instantly knew that number wasn't right, as the IDD code for the Uk is +44.
+48?
Poland.
Then I decided to have a quick look at the address.
Azreal13 wrote: Yeah, getting the company struck off the register would likely have been inconvenient.
IIRC there was some kind of management buy out last year (?) which has seen most/all of the company move to Poland although they have always had a Polish presence, I believe that's where their factory is. It is slightly odd that they still have their UK address but there is nothing inherently sinister about it. The address also isn't for a storage facility; they appear to be pretty standard commercial premises. Their neighbours include a laundry, a 'model maker', a couple of computer services companies and several garages.
They have quite severely mismanaged their 2 kickstarters, specifically their timetable and time management, but aside from that they are still trading and seem to be expanding fairly rapidly. Personally I have had no issues with them, including getting some damaged Warzone stuff replaced after nothing more than a single email.
Hopefully there will come a time when any and all threads related to Prodos won't be spammed with posts relating to the AvP KS.
This technology does seem interesting although only for certain types of miniatures, basically limited use models such as characters. Rank and file minis really require a degree of poseability and I suspect that this technology will be mostly used with single piece models.
IIRC wrong way around, they were always Polish, they just set up a nominal UK presence to be able to run KS projects.
There's been no buyout, at least not according to the Companies House records, they appear to have had a British company secretary who provided their UK address initially, but that person was removed a little while back and replaced by one of the existing directors, and that was when the company address became a self storage unit in Warwickshire.
Azreal13 wrote: IIRC wrong way around, they were always Polish, they just set up a nominal UK presence to be able to run KS projects.
There's been no buyout, at least not according to the Companies House records, they appear to have had a British company secretary who provided their UK address initially, but that person was removed a little while back and replaced by one of the existing directors, and that was when the company address became a self storage unit in Warwickshire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd suggest what is happening is there is more than one company using that place as a base.
What about the English gentleman who did all the interviews and promotional stuff in regards to bringing back Warzone? He spoke as if he was THE head owner of the company in interviews, not like a British Secretary. From what I understand when people are talking about a buy out, they are talking about his share in the company being bought out by the polish partners. I also recall the youtuber Templarcrusad01 being friends with this gentleman, and why he was able to get the prototypes to review dureing the KS when it was going.
I know by the time of AVP he wasn't quite the "face" of the company like he was before.
"Company Secretary" is an official role, like Director or Chairman, and is an equivalent role in terms of seniority, not someone who does the typing!
The records only state the what, not the why of what happened, so I can't offer anything more. I faintly remember someone publicly asking for someone to act as a nominal base in the UK or US for a company that wasn't based there so they could launch KS projects, can't be certain if they were Prodos or someone else.
Mildly OT, but I believe you're referring to Rob Alderman who left Prodos to start Hysterical Games wherein they ran a KickStarter for their Panzerfauste game. Given the history, the topic of Prodos and their repeated KickStarter failures came up a few times. I do not recall reading any bad blood in the parting, just different directions and I believe Prodos even posted to that effect, but I'm not going to go that far for a tangent. Legoburner gave you a search function if you really care.
Back on topic, the results do appear to be in the "too good to be true" category since it allows for fabulous single piece detail at a fraction of the cost and in a much shorter timeframe, but I'll grant that most materials seem to be making some impressive strides so it's certainly not impossible. Still in the paradigm of "good, fast and cheap" they're saying you can have all three which would generally be a red flag. If I was a stable company, I'd be quite interested in seeing what could be done for some character model or other; if it pans out awesome but if it doesn't the loss is comparatively minor. If I was a small-scale creator, especially someone with KS money, I'd wait until the new technology shine has worn off a bit and there's more third-party success stories before I went gambling with money I couldn't replace.
Krinsath wrote: Hysterical Games wherein they ran a KickStarter for their Panzerfauste game. Given the history, the topic of Prodos and their repeated KickStarter failures came up a few times.
Prodos I thought was doing the casting for it too. I know they at least did the 3d sculpts and prototyping and I had thought they were doing manufacturing but that may have changed.
Krinsath wrote: Still in the paradigm of "good, fast and cheap" they're saying you can have all three which would generally be a red flag.
I wouldn't say it was cheap because it isn't quite at the cheap cost, inexpensive yes. To be fair they didn't say it was fast either. Tooling takes 5 days, that doesn't mean there isn't a queue or orders to deal with so even though tooling is quickly... the time could be on par to something to Asia. I doubt it is that long though, probably somewhere in between given the timeline they've done so far with Crusaders but time will tell.
Krinsath wrote: Prodos I thought was doing the casting for it too. I know they at least did the 3d sculpts and prototyping and I had thought they were doing manufacturing but that may have changed.
Prodos did the initial castings certainly and they probably still do.
Azreal13 wrote: they appear to have had a British company secretary who provided their UK address initially, but that person was removed a little while back and replaced by one of the existing directors,
Which is what I meant although IIRC there were at least 2-3 people with British names associated with Prodos in the beginning. Either way nothing suspicious going on assuming that they are relocating to Poland which could easily account for their differing addresses and the storage unit.
I backed the hysterical games KS, and Prodos did some of the 3D design work and printing for for some of the range (but a number of other artists and printers were also involved)
The casting is being done by Rob Alderman himself and Prodos has not been involved in it
Krinsath wrote: Mildly OT, but I believe you're referring to Rob Alderman who left Prodos to start Hysterical Games wherein they ran a KickStarter for their Panzerfauste game. Given the history, the topic of Prodos and their repeated KickStarter failures came up a few times. I do not recall reading any bad blood in the parting, just different directions and I believe Prodos even posted to that effect, but I'm not going to go that far for a tangent. Legoburner gave you a search function if you really care.
Back on topic, the results do appear to be in the "too good to be true" category since it allows for fabulous single piece detail at a fraction of the cost and in a much shorter timeframe, but I'll grant that most materials seem to be making some impressive strides so it's certainly not impossible. Still in the paradigm of "good, fast and cheap" they're saying you can have all three which would generally be a red flag. If I was a stable company, I'd be quite interested in seeing what could be done for some character model or other; if it pans out awesome but if it doesn't the loss is comparatively minor. If I was a small-scale creator, especially someone with KS money, I'd wait until the new technology shine has worn off a bit and there's more third-party success stories before I went gambling with money I couldn't replace.
I think the reference to the UK company secretary etc is more linked to ex-Prodos Director Mark Rapson who now runs a company doing a Mad Max-esque game (Route 666 or something like that - I forget). He certainly appears to have split on less than amicable terms with the Polish side of Prodos and posted to that extent in the AvP thread on Dakka (starting from the link below if you want to trawl through it). As with any company politics I'm sure there's 3 sides to every story, but in the interests of full disclosure:
I know some people assumed I was championing Prodos.. that wasn't my intention.. I was frustrated by the fact that a technology that I found interesting was taking back seat to another discussion.. in a thread about the technology.. and not the other. When I posted their address, it was because that's what is on their site. It wasn't meant to be some weird conspiracy, it was me pointing out that their site still mentioned the UK. I personally don't know anything about country codes or any of that, so learning that they are at least part (but now it seems primarily) in Poland is definitely interesting. There are a few companies out of Poland and a lot of them know each other.. so I'd be surprised if there wasn't something else in play. It would be nice to know what's going on, understand who is who and all of that.
I also don't feel like any of that changes the original topic... which I do still find interesting. I think a lot of people posting didn't bother to read the review or even what the discussion actually was before berating. If you didn't.. please do because the technique and technology sounds cool. I don't expect Prodos to give out their golden goose but if someone else can figure out what it is they're doing and the principles behind it get "out in the wild" then it would be as big as the general community learning about vacuum chambers, resin casting, etc. 7 years ago, the idea of so many people producing high quality resin kits, 3d printing, etc.. it was unheard of. So when I see reports of something like this, it is exciting. Is it coming from a source of contention? Yea. However, that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Anyway, that said. I noticed today that Sodapop just released some AvP stuff. I do not know if they're connected to Prodos (it's got their name on it) but is this related to the outstanding KS stuff that Prodos hasn't delivered somehow? The releases are - Facehuggers, Predator Young Bloods, USCM Sentry Guns. http://sodapopminiatures.com/news/2016-05-16-may-releases.html Like I said.. I just saw it as a release and I don't know what people are missing or what.. but it popped up and I thought the people who are still owed stuff would take interest.
Thing is, I'd argue it's easy for a technology to sound cool if it's being presented by habitual liars and, some might argue, outright frauds.
Also, even if it **is** as cool as they say, it's a really bad idea to do business with a contractor who's shown that sort of ethics for something your whole business would depend on, all the more so if they're not easily replaced (as with casters with a unique approach, which you'd tool your models for.)
Last, any potential customers should remember there's more than a few hobbyists (and the is crowd is precisely who you need to start a new line) who will run like hell once we sniff Prodos involvement.
(Hell, I might well back something for USD 1 and just haunt the comments; every dollar that doesn't go to those donkey caves is a moral victory at least.)
I'm curious what's the end game for the backers of AVP. AFAIK, Prodos is doing shipping in batches cause they basically have no money. But they are shipping.
So...warning people from ever buying their games or models or anything does what? Other than drying up their cashflow and basically ensuring you don't get your KS stuff?
PsychoticStorm wrote: This is not what companies who tried them report so far and this is what matters I suppose for companies.
Look can you take your AVP complains to your relevant thread, it has become quite interfering at this point.
Bunch of habitual liars selling the new best thing since sliced bread? Hey look, I've found the relevant thread
And a company's past will always be relevant in discussions regarding it's new product lines, certainly a past that's not even a getting past yet by a long shot. Don't like the baggage? Find a thread that doesn't have such baggage attached.
Sining wrote: I'm curious what's the end game for the backers of AVP. AFAIK, Prodos is doing shipping in batches cause they basically have no money. But they are shipping.
So...warning people from ever buying their games or models or anything does what? Other than drying up their cashflow and basically ensuring you don't get your KS stuff?
Saying that prodos is lieing about their uni-cast system is just makeing you look dumb, since people already have products made with this tech on their hobby desks RIGHT NOW. All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.
I just want to point out agien. All the issues and "past" with prodos is around their kickstarters. They ship and deliver reliably to company partners AND their web orders. None of the people complaining are from web orders, it's from prodos ran kick starters. When partnered with other companies who are doing KS'ers, they always derived on their end to the company. I know your angry, but nothing your saying applies to what we're talking about here.
If this thread was about a prodos kickstarter, I would understand the warnings. Heck, I would be posting right now warning people to not touch a prodos ran kickstarter with a ten foot pole.
Bunch of habitual liars selling the new best thing since sliced bread? Hey look, I've found the relevant thread
Sigh, do you realize a few things, it is not marketed to consumers but to companies, the product is already out and been reviewed by people who are not part of the company, Prodos as a contractor does not have any "baggage" in either of their fields and to a consumer level their "Space Crusade" has been delivered as promised, coming in non AVP related threads to shame them because "they are Prodos" because of how AVP has been handled (witch is debatable who has the biggest fault on this) commenting on things wrongly and making accusations that need a serious backing is annoying.
This thread is about the process and what can be done with it, what do they lie about? the process? its already out and been reviewed, the delivery time? seems that "Space Crusade" was delivered on time, but we have yet to hear from somebody else on that subject so its impossible to comment, the price again the same thing and most importantly, it is not targeted to consumers but companies looking to outsource their work.
It's fairly self evident that Prodos are happy to leave KS backers twisting in the wind while they prioritise contract customers (it's the only logical explanation for how there's so little movement in the KS, yet those employing them as third parties are content IMO) so what happens when Prodos get tight on capacity and start prioritising their contract customers?
If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?
Azreal13 wrote: It's fairly self evident that Prodos are happy to leave KS backers twisting in the wind while they prioritise contract customers (it's the only logical explanation for how there's so little movement in the KS, yet those employing them as third parties are content IMO) so what happens when Prodos get tight on capacity and start prioritising their contract customers?
If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?
Bolognesus wrote: And a company's past will always be relevant in discussions regarding it's new product lines, certainly a past that's not even a getting past yet by a long shot. Don't like the baggage? Find a thread that doesn't have such baggage attached.
However you are actually talking about two different things. We all know there are issues with the Kickstarter that is there. From a consumer standpoint I can understand the concern.
From a contractor standpoint however they have never had any issues, other than being slow. Every product they have been responsible in manufacturing from prototypes to the whole Kickstarter, has been created, delivered and still has been being delivered. As a manufacturer and supplier in those regards there haven't been any issues. If you take every kickstarter they have been part of and responsible for and even add AvP, that is still 10% of issues. They have A ranking according to school systems, probably be at a 3.5 out of 5 star rankings in reviews (mainly because there are more negative vocal people).
No one is saying there wasn't and is issues with the AvP Kickstarter which they are still responsible for. However to deny everything else is just being ignorant.
Lockark wrote: All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.
To be fair, the whole line was not created with the UniCast system. The boxed game is created with it and a few of the stand-alone miniatures are currently being created with it. Those are indeed shipping (single miniatures). Some of the single miniatures have been multi-piece and created with their traditional casting method. That is most likely because they just worked out the kinks and I expect the rest to be converted over to the UniCast system but not all of the Space Crusade miniatures have.
Personally I am on neither side. I received all my AvP stuff already, really late but I did get it. I'm still in a wait and see. However I am all about playing devils advocate and making sure at least proper information is brought forward. Acting like absolutely everything they have done is horrible is just incorrect.
Azreal13 wrote: If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?
There have been quite a few warnings, edits of posts on both sides. And the moderators did post the 2 rules as a reminder.
I can't speak for all the Moderators, but I've been following this thread.
As long as everyone follows the rules of the site - specifically Rule #1 (Be polite) and Rule #2 (Stay On Topic), all will be well.
And in my opinion, Prodos' past behavior and the current delivery status of their Kickstarter campaigns is in fact on topic when if comes to the business at hand here.
Azreal13 wrote: It's fairly self evident that Prodos are happy to leave KS backers twisting in the wind while they prioritise contract customers (it's the only logical explanation for how there's so little movement in the KS, yet those employing them as third parties are content IMO) so what happens when Prodos get tight on capacity and start prioritising their contract customers?
If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?
^^^This. They get tight on capacity and leave you hanging? Hey, your only way to generate cashflow has just balked on you (there's no second-sourcing production on a production tech that's specific to one contractor!). If you really want to claim that bunch of donkey-caves at Prodos won't use that as some horrible, horrible leverage over you, you're properly delusional.
Using an irreplaceable contractor is enough of a risk as it is, using one that's shown the (utter lack of) ethics of this bunch of frauds? Just file for bankruptcy now; get it over with. Save your customers/backers/whatever the hit to their wallets for stuff they're likely to never get. And honestly, yeah that's something that will **keep** coming up as soon as I sniff Prodos involvement in any KS. And yes, that's *entirely* on topic (Thanks Alpharius ).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which minis on their site are Unicast? I thought their only Unicast minis were the boxed set versions of the Space Crusaders.
No their newer ones have been UniCast which is why people have been reviewing them. Instead of saying "resin miniatures" I believe they state "single piece resin miniature". The only ones that I know are Themis, Nyx, Lamia and Calypso.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which minis on their site are Unicast? I thought their only Unicast minis were the boxed set versions of the Space Crusaders.
No their newer ones have been UniCast which is why people have been reviewing them. Instead of saying "resin miniatures" I believe they state "single piece resin miniature". The only ones that I know are Themis, Nyx, and Calypso.
Lockark wrote: All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.
To be fair, the whole line was not created with the UniCast system. The boxed game is created with it and a few of the stand-alone miniatures are currently being created with it. Those are indeed shipping (single miniatures). Some of the single miniatures have been multi-piece and created with their traditional casting method. That is most likely because they just worked out the kinks and I expect the rest to be converted over to the UniCast system but not all of the Space Crusade miniatures have.
Personally I am on neither side. I received all my AvP stuff already, really late but I did get it. I'm still in a wait and see. However I am all about playing devils advocate and making sure at least proper information is brought forward. Acting like absolutely everything they have done is horrible is just incorrect.
Good to know, I've seen a few reviews of their spoace crusade mini's and thought they were all unicast. TBH I think the design of the mini's is horrible, but the tech being demonstrated by them is crazy.
I also want to mention I was in the original Warzone Kickstarter, and was in the very last wave of stuff getting shipped out. It's the reason I would not sujest to ever get involved with a Prodos RAN Kickstarter. I am 100% sure they will ship out the AVP backer's stuff in time, but do feel the whole running out of money for shipping thing looks REALY bad on their part. That's something that has caused other kickstarters to fail in the final days. That totally is something worth criticising them for. But it is good that they are established enough that they are trying to fix the problem.
But sujesting that they are lieing about the unicast tech because of the missteps of the AVP kickstarter is a face palming leap of logic.
That is correct based on the description. I have edited my post to include it. I wasn't going to rego through the whole list to find them so just listed the ones I knew from memory.
Lockark wrote: TBH I think the design of the mini's is horrible, but the tech being demonstrated by them is crazy.
On the designs I would have to agree but I've covered that in other posts already.
Lockark wrote: It's the reason I would not sujest to ever get involved with a Prodos RAN Kickstarter. I am 100% sure they will ship out the AVP backer's stuff in time, but do feel the whole running out of money for shipping thing looks REALY bad on their part. That's something that has caused other kickstarters to fail in the final days. That totally is something worth criticising them for. But it is good that they are established enough that they are trying to fix the problem.
But sujesting that they are lieing about the unicast tech because of the missteps of the AVP kickstarter is a face palming leap of logic.
I highlighted and underlined the important part that I agree with. Anything that Prodos is running, I would definitely agree. As a company though that has been working behind the scenes for many other Kickstarters however, they have done really well.
I don't agree with the decision or fully understand the reason for the delays on the final parts of the Kickstarter stuff. Having dealt with contracts with IP holders before, there is probably a lot more that can't be said. From an outside standpoint, I'd assume they are not utilizing other company funds to it and only utilizing funds generated by AvP for it. I can understand that because as a company they have to still focus on things that generate revenue vs what appears to be something they are going to abandon when the license expires. I don't agree with the decision but I can at the very least understand it the why behind it.
Has anyone got a unicast mini on their collections and if so how easy is it to clean mouldlines and such? Bendy resin? Fragile? As a consumer thats what I care about.
NAVARRO wrote: Has anyone got a unicast mini on their collections and if so how easy is it to clean mouldlines and such? Bendy resin? Fragile? As a consumer thats what I care about.
I time stamped the video were BoW start showing off some close ups of the mini's. Not much of a review, but gives a idea of what the mini's are like. They do have abit of bend to them, I imagen to help them get out of the moulds.
NAVARRO wrote: Has anyone got a unicast mini on their collections and if so how easy is it to clean mouldlines and such? Bendy resin? Fragile? As a consumer thats what I care about.
Look at the pics I posted above. From that website "...able to cast each of these as a single piece. It’s technically very impressive. The detail is sharp and the casting crisp. I’ve done nothing any of these – they’re straight out of the packet. Clean up looks straightforward and nothing out of the ordinary."
It appears like the minis you'd get in the boxed games for Doom, Gears of War, Blood Rage, etc... A rubbery, bendy mini... (I think, from what I am reading and seeing)
Okay, so they are a little soft and bendy, not hard and brittle. I was wondering about that as well, though I assumed they must be somewhat bendy to get out of the mold (though obviously the mold itself is flexible).
Now, if somebody could invent plastic miniatures without mold lines, that would really be some game-changing technology.
I'm not sure if rubbery is the right word, because the details on the space crusaders mini's seem to hold the detail better. They look bendy to some degree for sure, but not realy "rubbery".
Humm not sure of what I see there. Looks like some of those have warping issues ( looking at the base of the last picture, guy on the left) I wonder how easy are those to fix, if the resin has memory its going to be a pain if not impossible.
Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases? Because thats going back to metal bases done many decades ago.
Another thing is this is not exactly practical for a painter, I mean good for them that they can cast shields on the miniature but good luck painting the undercuts. Not even going to digress on non existent customization.
Sorry this all may be technical very groovy but I see NO advantages for me personally. A pass on this revolution.
NAVARRO wrote: Humm not sure of what I see there. Looks like some of those have warping issues ( looking at the base of the last picture, guy on the left) I wonder how easy are those to fix, if the resin has memory its going to be a pain if not impossible.
Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases? Because thats going back to metal bases done many decades ago.
Another thing is this is not exactly practical for a painter, I mean good for them that they can cast shields on the miniature but good luck painting the undercuts. Not even going to digress on non existent customization.
Sorry this all may be technical very groovy but I see NO advantages for me personally. A pass on this revolution.
There's a few companies (at least) still casting with bases on... though I didn't see anywhere that this is a requirement. As a point of fact, for board game pieces, this is downright fantastic. I just mentioned how flat I thought some of the most recent CMoN miniatures for their newer boardgames were looking and this would be an answer to that.
Likewise, if it's bendy, then it's probably soft enough that you could cut the base off with a hobby knife. As to the painting thing.. this allows things to be cast as single piece with undercuts. That doesn't mean they will be single piece with undercuts, but more importantly, I don't really understand why a model being single piece would be such a barrier. Most Bones miniatures are single piece and frankly kinda crappy in detail. That doesn't stop James Wappel, Victoria Lamb, or Jen Haley from painting them up to tournament level paintjobs. I mean, reading your post it just looks like you're trying your best to tear this down... but the things you're saying don't make sense. If someone does have a logical argument against this then fine but I think that's predicated on understanding the intended use of the technology in the first place. Which IMO, is most applicable to board game pieces or lower cost figures aimed primarily at the same audience as Reaper's Bones.
Sining wrote: I'm curious what's the end game for the backers of AVP. AFAIK, Prodos is doing shipping in batches cause they basically have no money. But they are shipping.
So...warning people from ever buying their games or models or anything does what? Other than drying up their cashflow and basically ensuring you don't get your KS stuff?
Saying that prodos is lieing about their uni-cast system is just makeing you look dumb, since people already have products made with this tech on their hobby desks RIGHT NOW. All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.
I just want to point out agien. All the issues and "past" with prodos is around their kickstarters. They ship and deliver reliably to company partners AND their web orders. None of the people complaining are from web orders, it's from prodos ran kick starters. When partnered with other companies who are doing KS'ers, they always derived on their end to the company. I know your angry, but nothing your saying applies to what we're talking about here.
If this thread was about a prodos kickstarter, I would understand the warnings. Heck, I would be posting right now warning people to not touch a prodos ran kickstarter with a ten foot pole.
Sorry to pick only this quote out, but I'm too lazy to go back and highlight them all.
Many of the AVP KS backers who still don't have their merchandise, or who are paying more to get it have every right to be here. It is putting positive pressure on Prodos to resolve the issues or lose more money in further lost sales. I applaude the backers who are diligently dogging Prodos as that is the community policing that DakkaDakka has always done and has helped me out of a few jams in the past.
As for this thread being about the casting process and it is aimed at the companies and not at us meer mortals who are the end buyers. I'd like to point out that you posted on a community forum where the majority of people here are the end customer and not the game producer designers, so you opened the can of worms and there's no turning back now. If you just wanted to let companies know about this great project then maybe find a community of game designers instead of the player base.
Along those lines any game designer thinking of using Prodos should know that they have a toxic name now in the industry. I was interested in the upcoming kickstarter for blackwater gulch until I saw that he was going to be using Prodos for manufacturing........I'd rather give my money to Tony Reidy now and ask him to produce something for me.
As to no complaints from customers who have ordered online from Prodos and all issues have only been from the KS of AVP, maybe you all should visit the Prodos thread. I saw at least one complaint about an online order missing parts and it taking over a month to get parts from Prodos. There was also Mantic during the KOW2 shipping that blamed not getting enough of the Blaine on lizard thing from Prodos. Prodos was a secondary source for the model after they couldn't get enough good ones from another company, but the time lead on them was attrocious and at one point was stated that no more would be coming. Also many companies won't air their dirty laundry out in a gaming forum about having issues with a producer (Except Poalo Parente , Dust and their distributor who's name eludes me currently), so we have no real knowledge if your assertion is accurate about how great they are.
NAVARRO wrote: Humm not sure of what I see there. Looks like some of those have warping issues ( looking at the base of the last picture, guy on the left) I wonder how easy are those to fix, if the resin has memory its going to be a pain if not impossible.
Those are Gears of War miniatures. They were not created with UniCast but are standard fair for most board game miniatures.
NAVARRO wrote: Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases?
Another thing is this is not exactly practical for a painter, I mean good for them that they can cast shields on the miniature but good luck painting the undercuts. Not even going to digress on non existent customization.
UniCast does not require the bases to be attached.
To answer about the attached bases and painting, it will depend on the market. Miniature hobbiests, those usually associated with miniatures war gaming will probably not be interested in them. These are targeted towards board game audiences that tend to like to have attached bases (CMoN, Soda Pop, etc).
NAVARRO wrote: Humm not sure of what I see there. Looks like some of those have warping issues ( looking at the base of the last picture, guy on the left) I wonder how easy are those to fix, if the resin has memory its going to be a pain if not impossible.
Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases? Because thats going back to metal bases done many decades ago.
Another thing is this is not exactly practical for a painter, I mean good for them that they can cast shields on the miniature but good luck painting the undercuts. Not even going to digress on non existent customization.
Sorry this all may be technical very groovy but I see NO advantages for me personally. A pass on this revolution.
There's a few companies (at least) still casting with bases on... though I didn't see anywhere that this is a requirement. As a point of fact, for board game pieces, this is downright fantastic. I just mentioned how flat I thought some of the most recent CMoN miniatures for their newer boardgames were looking and this would be an answer to that.
Likewise, if it's bendy, then it's probably soft enough that you could cut the base off with a hobby knife. As to the painting thing.. this allows things to be cast as single piece with undercuts. That doesn't mean they will be single piece with undercuts, but more importantly, I don't really understand why a model being single piece would be such a barrier. Most Bones miniatures are single piece and frankly kinda crappy in detail. That doesn't stop James Wappel, Victoria Lamb, or Jen Haley from painting them up to tournament level paintjobs. I mean, reading your post it just looks like you're trying your best to tear this down... but the things you're saying don't make sense. If someone does have a logical argument against this then fine but I think that's predicated on understanding the intended use of the technology in the first place. Which IMO, is most applicable to board game pieces or lower cost figures aimed primarily at the same audience as Reaper's Bones.
Not sure if you are somewhat willing to listen but you did try to reply. As such here goes nothing.
I have no interest in tear anything down here ( you do seem to have the opposite stance though), but if people come here and say this is the best thing since sliced bread then I need to have a closer look at it... unfortunately I did not find this revolution useful for me personally. You may call me illogical or that I lack the understanding but lets see, where does it say this process/material is exclusive to boardgaming and that it will only be used as cheap and lowercost miniatures? For all we know PP with plasresin crap and GW with finecast are the on the top of their game. If its cheap people will use it so this may well be flooding the market.
As for the painting, you can have picasso painting it but it does not make a difference that if you have an attached shield a few mm in front of your chest your not going to be able to paint that chest or the back of the shield... got it now?
So your arguments to:
Attached bases are not revolutionary in any shape or form by the contrary -
Mlaw- Plastic is soft so you can cut them and some companies cast bases too.
Painting is going to be more difficult due to unreachable parts of the mini obscured with shields etc
Mlaw- good painters do it
Warping issues, unreachable painting areas, attached bases and no customization means that I personally do not see any advantages as a customer. Pass.
Mlaw - your argument is not logical this is cheap stuff man.
Sorry I did make a little parody with your post I believe a chill pill was needed mate.
NAVARRO wrote: Warping issues, unreachable painting areas, attached bases and no customization means that I personally do not see any advantages as a customer.
There have been no reported issues with warping. Again the images you looked at where not created with UniCast but were board game miniatures from a different game. They do not have to have attached bases, that is up to the game company. Unreachable painting areas is really up to the game company and sculptor, it does not require it to have unreachable paint areas. You are correct there is no customization because this isn't targeted to those wanting multi-piece miniatures.
NAVARRO wrote: but if people come here and say this is the best thing since sliced bread
No one here has actually come here to say this is the "best thing since sliced bread". In fact the person who did state that was someone who was saying it was not.
NAVARRO wrote: Warping issues, unreachable painting areas, attached bases and no customization means that I personally do not see any advantages as a customer.
There have been no reported issues with warping. Again the images you looked at where not created with UniCast but were board game miniatures from a different game. They do not have to have attached bases, that is up to the game company. Unreachable painting areas is really up to the game company and sculptor, it does not require it to have unreachable paint areas. You are correct there is no customization because this isn't targeted to those wanting multi-piece miniatures.
NAVARRO wrote: but if people come here and say this is the best thing since sliced bread
No one here has actually come here to say this is the "best thing since sliced bread". In fact the person who did state that was someone who was saying it was not.
No bases is good, they are not needed.
A couple Prodos minis on the weekender seem to have the Designer problem, not a fan of minis that are painful to paint but then again if I paint them digitally like prodos does I should have no problems
Sliced bread was joke but both weekender title and some posts in this thread say revolutionary, not that I care but you seem to.
Btw, those pics I posted I realize the article states these are 2ups/50mm test models. Not 28/30mm like they will be on release. Details might be exaggerated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading another article, prodos blog, the blood rage, doom, gears minis I mentioned and pictured are "pvc" resin and prodos says theirs are a more solid resin (not pvc) and more precise in details, and won't warp (as seen in my example of warped bases of the gears mini).
Theophony wrote: I was interested in the upcoming kickstarter for blackwater gulch until I saw that he was going to be using Prodos for manufacturing.......
For what it's worth, we're going to be sticking to metal after all. I do still think this is a great new technology and all though, I'm looking forward to see what else comes out of it. I really like how they can have bases attached, I think that will be really great for board game minis.
NAVARRO wrote: Sliced bread was joke but both weekender title and some posts in this thread say revolutionary, not that I care but you seem to.
It isn't better than sliced bread but it is revolutionary for what it can offer to people looking for single piece casts. The possibilities of not having to deal with undercuts, overhang issues amongst other limitations that exist for current mult-piece miniatures can mean a lot too. Technically you could utilize it to create a multi-piece miniature as well. I believe their larger ones are multi-piece but only a couple pieces instead of many, letting them easily glue them together.
Usually a miniature is broken up into smaller pieces or multiple pieces because of the limitations of casting. If you want single pieces then you stuck paying a high cost for tooling. I don't think it is a new method, as it is taking an existing method and applying how it is used differently. However I can't be sure because it depends on how they tool the actual mold. I don't think it is a replacement but it does provide an alternate path for small companies that didn't exist which does make it revolutionary in that aspect.
We will see how it really pans out though in time. Which is why I'm part of the wait and see crowd.
russian69hitman wrote: prodos says theirs are a more solid resin (not pvc) and more precise in details, and won't warp
It is a HIPS/resin hybrid according to their product information. Not a soft, not completely rigid but precise and holds details that shouldn't warp. I'll know more when the samples I had were sent off to someone to review. I get them back next week I think.
Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases? Because thats going back to metal bases done many decades ago.
You understand it is clearly marketed for boardgame manufacturers and not boutique ranges for painters, integral base with undercuts as a single part in a reasonable price is quite attractive.
Especially now that Kickstarter has made miniatures almost mandatory.
I've looked over what's available on their web shop & all the stuff I wanted from the is are there - ie there's no wave 3 in my pledge - ie there's no reason for Prodos to send me my sodding stuff.
Not that interested in one piece casts with integral bases. Sick of the gw stuff which makes converting harder & harder as it is. And if I have a problem with gw stuff I know I can just call them up to get a replacement. Until Prodoesn't can offer that level of customer service, [MOD EDIT - Unnecessary. - Alpharius]
NAVARRO wrote: Sliced bread was joke but both weekender title and some posts in this thread say revolutionary, not that I care but you seem to.
. Technically you could utilize it to create a multi-piece miniature as well. I believe their larger ones are multi-piece but only a couple pieces instead of many, letting them easily glue them together.
That would be the best option to be honest, for things like shields or even extra/alternative bits. Then again is up to the designer to think about these possibilities. Things can look great in 3d software and can be cast in unicast but at the end of the day all of that is redundant if the miniature does not fit the purpose which is to be painted. Unless you just want coloured plastic tokens for your games which in that case you do not even need crisp details etc.
PsychoticStorm you do understand that I already commented that... If finecast, PP bad casts, mantic nightmare casts etc are examples to go by, your ideal world that this will be contained only in boardames is just wishful thinking.
Its not a problem for me I simply vote with my wallet but not for a second I believe this will be just the cheap board game option.
As for the comments regarding the credibility of the company, well this industry unfortunately has plenty of bad examples and big hairy ones too, so with time people will forget and carry on. I would not touch this company KS with a stick though and by principle I refuse to get AVP until all is solved. Hopefully Prodos will make it right soon enough.
I guess even though we agree on many things we have to disagree here.
The purpose of the mini is not solely to be painted, miniatures can be used to be painted, they can be used to be just a 3D game counter and as the market grows so do people who frankly do not care to paint their models (or assemble them for that matter), lets call them casual gamers? I believe there is a market that will grow catering those people and as always their existence and the existence of companies making products for them will not stop other companies making multi part models that are a joy to paint.
Now, it is not my "ideal world" point of view when I stated they are marketed for boardgames, the entire announcement page is marketed for boargame companies, their showcase product is a boardgame and their comparisons are boargame pieces, the integral base is a hallmark of boargames.
The boardgame market because of the kickstarter has acquired a taste of assembled models that is quite expensive for startups and it has gone out of kickstarter to the main market, this is a huge expense for small and middle companies and this manufacturing method aims for companies in this spot.
I am sure this method can be used by wargame companies with a slota base and or to minimize the parts of a model, but it is not the intended purpose, I would also argue that the wargame companies that will try this are not the companies that have miniature painters as their target audience.
For the comments about credibility I am afraid there is an extremely vocal minority who potentially can scare small companies from a contractor who can potentially be beneficial for them and we have two sides here on one hand essentially AVP backers who, while having a legitimate case (still undetermined how much is prodos fault and how much is the IP holders fault) are not the customers this method is marketed for and on the other hand the companies who this method is marketed for who have a good experience.
On what grounds all the accusations mentioned here stand since the people who give them have not used Prodos as a contracted manufacturer and their word stands against the companies who do have used them and give them a good reputation?
I shared this info with a friend who has extensive resin casting experience and wanted to share this thought.
He thinks it is impossible to cast in this manner and he even thinks the picture of the mold has been photo shopped. I think if true this is a major advancement over other methods.
My resin buddy insists that the undercuts will shred any mold with only a few pulls. If you use a plastic injection machine the clamping force will deform the rubber component of the mold when closing. The aluminum frame surrounding the rubber insert can protect it from the clamping force and perhaps prevent this.
But, the entire rubber insert is going to have to be removed after each injection in order to be flexed to remove the model.
The looped handle on the backpack is an enigma for sure, as the mold has to be split in the tiny area under the handle in order for it to be extracted. If you pour a rubber mold over a master you are going to have to melt the master to get it to flow out and then try to cut it with a razor knife.
It is possible the molds themselves are 3D printed, which solves the problem with pouring the molds. I know you can 3D print in soft rubbery materials which could be used as a mold material, and maybe this is how the process was done.
In any event, my small group of tinkers has been having fun trying to figure this out!
Theophony wrote: I was interested in the upcoming kickstarter for blackwater gulch until I saw that he was going to be using Prodos for manufacturing.......
For what it's worth, we're going to be sticking to metal after all. I do still think this is a great new technology and all though, I'm looking forward to see what else comes out of it. I really like how they can have bases attached, I think that will be really great for board game minis.
Glad to hear it . At this point any connection to Prodos is an instant ending point for me.
kenofyork wrote: I shared this info with a friend who has extensive resin casting experience and wanted to share this thought.
He thinks it is impossible to cast in this manner and he even thinks the picture of the mold has been photo shopped. I think if true this is a major advancement over other methods.
My resin buddy insists that the undercuts will shred any mold with only a few pulls. If you use a plastic injection machine the clamping force will deform the rubber component of the mold when closing. The aluminum frame surrounding the rubber insert can protect it from the clamping force and perhaps prevent this.
But, the entire rubber insert is going to have to be removed after each injection in order to be flexed to remove the model.
The looped handle on the backpack is an enigma for sure, as the mold has to be split in the tiny area under the handle in order for it to be extracted. If you pour a rubber mold over a master you are going to have to melt the master to get it to flow out and then try to cut it with a razor knife.
It is possible the molds themselves are 3D printed, which solves the problem with pouring the molds. I know you can 3D print in soft rubbery materials which could be used as a mold material, and maybe this is how the process was done.
In any event, my small group of tinkers has been having fun trying to figure this out!
What if the molds aren't rubber? Again.. I'm not for Prodos, I just want to know how to do this before everyone burns them to the ground!
My thought is, what if they're taking 3d models, making a 3d mold with the negative of that.. then splitting that up digitally and tooling from that?
OR
What if they're doing something with brush on molding?
OR
What if they're creating a partial mold from a 3d print with a printed channel to block rubber from sections, dividing it into 3 areas. Then they're doing a similar technique to a 2 part mold and on the 3rd section using a vacuum pump to pull the rubber into the final section with the cavities or something.. I dunno!
Anyone who has ever made molds or tried to.. or even understands what's actually involved will look at this and be like WHA!?!? I get that people who just buy army guys and don't care about the process are going to be more interested in what's going on with Prodos. I have no dog in that fight and it sucks what's going on with the people in that position. Trying to figure this out though has my gears turning. This is supposed to be impossible according to conventional thinking.
@PsychoticStorm I hope this does not snowball into wargaming but like I said big companies do try to sell subpar material at premium prices so its only a question of time. Nothing wrong if thats what people want I guess, its just not for me. Yes miniatures can just be game tokens like I said in that case there is no need for uber sharpen detail work since the unpainted plastic does not show them properly, specially if its a coloured plastic.
Reputation is one of those things that takes years to build yet just minutes to destroy it. I do not possess the numbers of undelivered goods VS happy companies but the negative feedback is quite real. Prodos should do better than this, specially when they are currently selling the goods a bit everywhere for some time now.
kenofyork wrote: If you use a plastic injection machine the clamping force will deform the rubber component of the mold when closing. The aluminum frame surrounding the rubber insert can protect it from the clamping force and perhaps prevent this.
We don't know if the mold is made of rubber, I was guessing a silicone type substance given the inexpensive cost for tooling and only flexible material I could think of that would allow it to get round the undercuts. They also didn't say it was using a plastic injection machine per say, it is implied though when they say "plastic injection manufacturing process" but not sure of the exacts of what that can be referring to if machine or just the method of forced injection of material.
I have 3d printed negative molds in wax, then used liquid metal to create the negative mold before. However I don't think these molds are metal, the cost and detail doesn't seem like that would be viable. They can 3d print silicone now, so maybe a high temperature resistant but flexible material is 3d printed in a negative mold.
They have a method as I have seen the models, they aren't glued, they are one piece. I have seen very little mold lines if any, so I haven't quite been able to figure out how the mold was set against the miniature. Getting around the shoulder, arm joints and shield parts seem difficult so it would require the mold to be flexible unless there is a new method to get it to just pop out.
It also does not help their cause when in their thread one of the company reps comes on, refuses to answer questions that are not getting answered in the KS thread, bashes DakkaDakka and then stops posting. So it's more than just a KS issue, it's their corporate identity. They either need to step up their game as an international company and do some PR damage control, or decide to shrink back into obscurity and do behind the scenes work without plastering their name everywhere. The name brings up red flags, and as this thread goes to show, it doesn't matter how great a new process is if people see the name attached and instantly attack.
From a contractor standpoint however they have never had any issues, other than being slow. Every product they have been responsible in manufacturing from prototypes to the whole Kickstarter, has been created, delivered and still has been being delivered. As a manufacturer and supplier in those regards there haven't been any issues. If you take every kickstarter they have been part of and responsible for and even add AvP, that is still 10% of issues. They have A ranking according to school systems, probably be at a 3.5 out of 5 star rankings in reviews (mainly because there are more negative vocal people).
There have NEVER been ANY issues as a contractor? So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about? Even the ones that they don't tell anyone about and may have made sign an NDA as a condition to get money/moulds/files/whatever back? Because that's their modus operandi (hide complaints behind an access wall as much as possible). I know that folks talk behind closed doors in every industry but that's a pretty absolute statement to make if you haven't taken a close look at their internal books.
mad robot wrote: A simple 2 minute video showing the casts being removed from the mold would pretty much put all the hub-bub to rest.
I wonder why they haven't done that...?
Probably because it isn't protectable in terms of a patent and once it is explained or shown, it will make it easier for to be reversed engineered. If it is using existing technology, just in a new and different method then it technically isn't something new, just how it is applied. Could also be time if it was something that can be patent... no idea though, I'm not a lawyer in that regards. If it ends up being one of those things you see, then smack your head going "Duh" then they probably could be worried others could reverse engineer it easily.
There isn't a bunch of hub-bub, I mean there isn't a large group saying this is impossible or questioning it so they really don't have a medium or reason to answer. The miniatures exist, the quality can speak for themselves, so it isn't like it is renders or a theoretical process, some process exists to get them.
warboss wrote: There have NEVER been ANY issues as a contractor? So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about?
A single dissatisfied customer tends to speak louder than a hundred satisfied ones, generally for good reasons. I think by now we would have heard at least rumours of poor handling of company customers, had it happened.
So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about? Even the ones that they don't tell anyone about and may have made sign an NDA as a condition to get money/moulds/files/whatever back? Because that's their modus operandi (hide complaints behind an access wall as much as possible). I know that folks talk behind closed doors in every industry but that's a pretty absolute statement to make if you haven't taken a close look at their internal books.
warboss wrote: There have NEVER been ANY issues as a contractor? So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about? Even the ones that they don't tell anyone about and may have made sign an NDA as a condition to get money/moulds/files/whatever back?
You do have a point, I should have stated that better.
I have not followed up with every single company, but yes I have been in contact with various companies and projects (23, give or take a couple as there are some mixing of projects) that have used them on Kickstarter and a couple outside of Kickstarter. There were also a couple products I was surprised were Prodos manufactured as they had "prodos games" on the sprue when I got the miniatures. Those were ones I also followed up with because I was expecting it.
I can't say it is every one. Our industry is however fairly small and as we know word travels fast and quickly. Any issues or complications get talked about and communicated rather quickly through the community. I have never had a manufacturer require an NDA as a condition for anything, ever. Now that doesn't mean it isn't possible but it does seem improbably. The reverse though tends to happen where a company requires the manufacturer to sign a NDA, usually to protect information from getting out sooner or for other reasons. There have however been people who didn't mention that Prodos was doing manufacturing, mainly due to the negative image so they chose not to release that.
I didn't look since their inception, only after issues with AvP, because they were a viable manufacturing source. When looking at options for my projects and a couple contracts we had to research them as one of them. The issues we that we did and others tend to deal around communication to actually finalize and start a project. Once it was in the pipe, the only real complications other than some 3d models being fixed, reprinted was timing of deliveries. There have been delays for various reasons but not enough that it has had a major impact on any game. An exception could probably be said for Demi-Gods, however they had issues with their original manufacturer and basically have been bailed out by Prodos as a viable manufacturer.
Almost every one of their issues have are from a consumer/backer standpoint for AvP. Issues with mispackages on their own products do get resolved, but shipping and handling can be anywhere from 2 weeks to 4 weeks. There was definitely an issue about a year ago. We've seen some of the fallout, company split, people left and restructuring. Since then there has been an improvement. They still don't have someone specifically to handle customer service and PR which hurts them a lot on the consumer side of things.
His Master's Voice wrote: A single dissatisfied customer tends to speak louder than a hundred satisfied ones, generally for good reasons. I think by now we would have heard at least rumours of poor handling of company customers, had it happened.
With regards to small business, that's not necessarily true. I obviously am posting hypotheticals just like Dark Severance (although I'm admitted that they're such instead of indisputable facts). If prodos took first time business owners' money and designs, they could easily strongarm conditions for the return that favor them potentially as the party with the upper hand in that case (just like with KS backers). We saw that scenario with Defiance games in the past. Also, plenty of small business owners and/or first timers wouldn't want it to be public that they did potentially get duped with no real recourse so wouldn't share the info in private until someone else (or multiple other customers) did in order to not look foolish themselves. There are plenty of reasons why potentially news of Prodos doing to other companies what they CONTINUE to do to kickstarter backers wouldn't become public. Airing that dirty laundry in public is actively frowned upon and ends up costing the grieved business just as much as the one doing the drity work. Unless D.S. has someone gotten an unfettered look at Prodos' own internal financial documents, he shouldn't be saying anything for certain. The only thing we know for certain is that Prodos CONTINUES to disappoint kickstarter backers and prioritize new customers and future customers over those with little recourse for a refund. If they get busy on the business to business side of things, there is nothing stopping them from continuing that long term established pattern there as well in the short term (1-2 years) until the rumors got too loud to ignore.
So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about? Even the ones that they don't tell anyone about and may have made sign an NDA as a condition to get money/moulds/files/whatever back? Because that's their modus operandi (hide complaints behind an access wall as much as possible). I know that folks talk behind closed doors in every industry but that's a pretty absolute statement to make if you haven't taken a close look at their internal books.
No have you? absolute statements go either way.
I didn't make an absolute statement so your point is moot. I simply posted an indisputable and easily verifiable fact (that they DO currently try to hide valid criticism and have long done so) and said it is wise to extrapolate that possibility to their other revenue stream instead of disavowing it completely in the absense of information.
warboss wrote: There have NEVER been ANY issues as a contractor? So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about? Even the ones that they don't tell anyone about and may have made sign an NDA as a condition to get money/moulds/files/whatever back?
You do have a point, I should have stated that better.
I have not followed up with every single company, but yes I have been in contact with various companies and projects (23, give or take a couple as there are some mixing of projects) that have used them on Kickstarter and a couple outside of Kickstarter. There were also a couple products I was surprised were Prodos manufactured as they had "prodos games" on the sprue when I got the miniatures. Those were ones I also followed up with because I was expecting it.
I can't say it is every one. Our industry is however fairly small and as we know word travels fast and quickly. Any issues or complications get talked about and communicated rather quickly through the community. I have never had a manufacturer require an NDA as a condition for anything, ever. Now that doesn't mean it isn't possible but it does seem improbably. The reverse though tends to happen where a company requires the manufacturer to sign a NDA, usually to protect information from getting out sooner or for other reasons. There have however been people who didn't mention that Prodos was doing manufacturing, mainly due to the negative image so they chose not to release that.
That's very diligent of you and kudos for putting in that groundwork (no sarcasm intended). That's much more than I thought you did. I'm just advising caution as their shifting priorities seem to come part and parcel with screwing over those who already paid in favor of those about to pay (or recently paid).
Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".
Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.
mad robot wrote: A simple 2 minute video showing the casts being removed from the mold would pretty much put all the hub-bub to rest.
I wonder why they haven't done that...?
I recall some conversations in PM about 3d printing between you and I where I was told I had to figure some things out for myself. I think they might be taking that approach. Honestly, if they have found a process that brings something to the industry, do you really expect them to give that up without a fight? Yeah, I want to know how they do it but I don't blame them for not doing so.
EDIT: I gotta say, I've received things from kickstarters done by Prodos and I didn't know Prodos had a hand in it. White Dragon's 15mm comes to mind.. my reaction was pretty much "huh".. I was admittedly annoyed that I didn't notice or they didn't disclose Prodos' involvement. I am bothered by that a little just like I felt put-off after someone pointed out that Prodos' contact info on their page is misleading. Those things are deceptive IMO.. them withholding their technique though, that's a legit trade secret.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".
Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.
mad robot wrote: A simple 2 minute video showing the casts being removed from the mold would pretty much put all the hub-bub to rest.
I wonder why they haven't done that...?
I recall some conversations in PM about 3d printing between you and I where I was told I had to figure some things out for myself. I think they might be taking that approach.
Honestly, if they have found a process that brings something to the industry, do you really expect them to give that up without a fight? Yeah, I want to know how they do it but I don't blame them for not doing so.
EDIT: I gotta say, I've received things from kickstarters done by Prodos and I didn't know Prodos had a hand in it. White Dragon's 15mm comes to mind.. my reaction was pretty much "huh".. I was admittedly annoyed that I didn't notice or they didn't disclose Prodos' involvement. I am bothered by that a little just like I felt put-off after someone pointed out that Prodos' contact info on their page is misleading. Those things are deceptive IMO.. them withholding their technique though, that's a legit trade secret.
I agree, they have every right to protect anything they see as a trade secret. But then why post a picture of the mold and what appears to be the resulting cast? If they are so proud of the process, why no close ups of the cast from that picture? No one, that I'm aware of, has seen anything that serves as evidence of a new or ground-breaking process. All I've seen so far is one still picture that shows little to no detail.
To be clear, I am not intending these comments to be negative,. I simply don't understand the motivation of a company who makes a full-page blog post about their "new technology in miniature industry" and then doesn't show anything about that technology. If that evidence is out there, I will be happy to stand corrected
To be clear, I am not intending these comments to be negative,. I simply don't understand the motivation of a company who makes a full-page blog post about their "new technology in miniature industry" and then doesn't show anything about that technology. If that evidence is out there, I will be happy to stand corrected
I am assuming they feel the pictures of the finished product are enouph evidence?
PsychoticStorm wrote: Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".
Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.
I didn't say EVER that there are definitely companies out there screwed over by Prodos. I used words like "if they", "not necessarily", and "hypothetical" along with the use of question marks; if you read that as an absolute then that is a massive reading comprehension failure on your part. The indisputable facts that I stated were that there are KS backers that were screwed over and that Prodos had tried and continues to try their best to hide that (unsuccessfully) from new customers and then extrapolated the POSSIBILITY that they'd do the same to businesses if pressured. I suggested that he not assume the best of them (despite his extensive groundwork that he detailed AFTER my post) and instead work from the pessimistic viewpoint of them at their worst. I guess what I actually wrote is not as exciting to respond to so you decided to extrapolate from my post while at the same time chiding me from extrapolating from Prodos' verifiable public actions.
I'm just advising caution as their shifting priorities seem to come part and parcel with screwing over those who already paid in favor of those about to pay (or recently paid).
If they weren't a viable source for 3d sculpting, 3d printing and/or casting then I probably would not have bothered. However since they are and being in the business world, I have learned that it is best to not simply turn a blind eye away from someone. Otherwise I would probably not deal with quite a few corporations but I don't have that luxury.
Advising caution isn't a bad thing. As I have said before I'm more in a wait and see. I am curious how things will turn out for the Demi-Gods kickstarter. That doesn't mean I haven't look into and still looking at the options. I'm in a more wait and see, as there are issues that need to be proven with actions.
I don't agree with the reasoning behind the practice but as a business person I can partly understand it. From my perspective it isn't so much they are putting a priority on new customers but have segregated the project. What I mean is that AvP is essentially been isolated as its own project. They ran out of funding from long ago all the changes and jumping the gun on casting, having to destroy and other things. Other than what they pooled to do an initial large shipment, the rest of it has been cut like cancer. No new money is really being put into it. All money generated from it, focus on that.
Yes they could probably shift funds to pay for and finish up what they have done. I don't know if there are other politics involved because of Fox, having dealt with IP projects I can bet there is. (For example this is hypothetical but one I have seen with other companies. Depending on how they pay royalties, if they shift money to AvP that could skew the books and potentially cost additional or more money having to be paid to Fox). By segregating it out, that lets them focus revenue and resources on continuing to grow the business, which they need to continue function as a company.
If they don't focus on existing and new projects that has more long term effects.
Given that even if they close the books on AvP and deliver, it is already clearly stated by individuals that they will hunt and burn them down every vocal chance they get. It reminds me of when I used to be in the restaurant business, the old adage, don't piss off the cook serving your food.
I don't agree with either methods on both sides, from Prodos's side of things or from the consumers side. However I can understand the choices behind the business decision. It isn't an easy choice but one I have seen made a few times. I can also understand angre and resentment from the consumer side of things.
But this is just the AVP and assuming what happens in AVP happens in the work they do as contractors is a big assumption, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.
@Dark Severance: I find your reasoning and assumptions valid in the preceding post even if the end results from a decidedly consumer/backer perspective are very unfavorable. Unfortunately, the backers aren't to blame for Prodos' likely jumping the gun yet are also paying the price alongside them. Eh, I've made and clarified my original point enough regardless.
The closeups of the unicast fig do look nice though.
But this is just the AVP and assuming what happens in AVP happens in the work they do as contractors is a big assumption, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.
And? The KS is what Warboss was referring to, see his subsequent post for confirmation.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".
Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.
I didn't say EVER that there are definitely companies out there screwed over by Prodos. I used words like "if they", "not necessarily", and "hypothetical" along with the use of question marks; if you read that as an absolute then that is a massive reading comprehension failure on your part. The indisputable facts that I stated were that there are KS backers that were screwed over and that Prodos had tried and continues to try their best to hide that (unsuccessfully) from new customers and then extrapolated the POSSIBILITY that they'd do the same to businesses if pressured. I suggested that he not assume the best of them (despite his extensive groundwork that he detailed AFTER my post) and instead work from the pessimistic viewpoint of them at their worst. I guess what I actually wrote is not as exciting to respond to so you decided to extrapolate from my post while at the same time chiding me from extrapolating from Prodos' verifiable public actions.
Cute, so your hypothetical extrapolations have the same ground as facts.
Can we set a framework here?
AVP is AVP and what happens there is more or less contained there, there is a possibility the company behaves like that in its entirety, there is the possibility this is an isolated case because of royalties been involved.
There are evidences that Prodos delivers on time their other projects (thought I would argue I got my warzone pledge two years after everybody else got it because they simply mistyped my address every single time, but hey I am a firm believer of not attributing malice were incompetence would be enouph).
There are evidence of other companies using them as manufacturers and it worked well enouph for them to be happy about it.
There are also evidence of companies been at least weary of showing they work with Prodos because of the AVP internet lynch mob.
This thread is about a revolutionary manufacturing method with examples been reviewed by unaffiliated reviewers so if it is a scam it is a really elaborate one involving many persons who would gain nothing from it.
This technique could be a great alternative for companies (mostly boardgame ones) who want to compete with the big ones and simply cannot afford neither china nor the huge print runs china requires.
Look I am not saying AVP is been handled even remotely decent (forget good) and I am not saying you do not have the right to be frustrated, but I feel it has gone to far, especially when you try to intimidate other companies from using Prodos, because no other reason but AVP and if I am allowed to go to simplistic hypothetical scenarios (as everybody does) it can just be the IP holder complicating everything, of course the truth probably is in putting the blame to both.
warboss wrote: @Dark Severance: I find your reasoning and assumptions valid in the preceding post even if the end results from a decidedly consumer/backer perspective are very unfavorable. Unfortunately, the backers aren't to blame for Prodos' likely jumping the gun yet are also paying the price alongside them.
I definitely agree that the backers aren't to blame, even if a few are overzealous. There are multiple people's fault that the blame goes to, which isn't purely Prodos but is definitely not the backers fault.
Like I said I don't agree with the business decision they made moving forward, but it is something I can understand. No matter what direction they chose, it was going to be harmful... which is more harmful and beneficial long term, time will tell.
I hope I never have to be responsible for a similar decision, as a business person I'm fairly sure I would have made the choice to finish up and deliver despite costs just so I can officially close that book and move on. Saying that now is easy, compared to having to make the decision while dealing with other factors though.
As mentioned before - Prodos has also had slow deliveries to at least one of the companies that have contracted their services - the infamous Blaine on giant lizard miniature for Mantic.
So, at the very least, their reputation is not spotless.
Add in their Kickstarter problems, and they begin to resemble a Dalmation...
Their work is excellent - when they get around to it. It is the question of when that causes problems.
My suspicion is that they have a cash flow problem - one that may clear up in time.
But that cash flow problem causes a production flow problem.
I am not saying don't use their services - I am saying caveat emptor.
warboss wrote: There have NEVER been ANY issues as a contractor? So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about?
A single dissatisfied customer tends to speak louder than a hundred satisfied ones, generally for good reasons. I think by now we would have heard at least rumours of poor handling of company customers, had it happened.
Do you mean rumors like the ones that claimed two of Mantic's Kickstarters were late to deliver or incomplete because of their resin contractor, rumored to be Prodos?
That's what I don't get. Nobody here is saying Prodos is 100% trustworthy. We get it.. they've messed up.. in at least one case royally.
However, I challenge anyone to name a company that hasn't had at least a spot of contention. Particularly any companies that go out and try Kickstarting.
That's actually an interesting point.. prior to Kickstarter, when all we had was actual pre-orders and regular orders of existing products, there were SO many fewer problems. Mantic has earned a lot of bad marks in my book.. but frankly none of them would've been there without Kickstarter. I think the only company I've managed to harbor bad feelings about without any help from kickstarter is the old geedub.
Reaper has run at least four Kickstarters and hasn't suffered any blowback that I've seen. CMON, too. Dreamforge suffered delays, but the company's regard is currently as high as it has ever been.
Palladium's previous preorders make most Kickstarter failures look like punctual success stories. The hHeresy dragon also caused quite a bit of drama if I recall.
And I doubt you hate GW for preorder related shenanigans. There are plenty of mini companies that are despised for similar good reasons, like PP, Battlefield, DUST studios, Asmodee/Fantasy Flight, Wizkids, Wayland (as a distributor and retailer), Mierce, Mongoose and so on.
Actually Reapers first KS was pretty badly run. People were constantly wondering wtf their stuff was from what I remember of the comments, especially since shipping was erratic and stretched over 4? months or so. Nobody knew who was next or how they were arranging stuff.
CMON got a lot of flak for their zombicide char cards not having markers in z2. DFG wasn't so hot when people were wondering where their stuff was. I remember that cause I was one of the few who ONLY backed for wave 3 and I looked at comments here and on KS every now and then.
Otoh, most of these complaints went away when people finally got their stuff
Sining wrote: Actually Reapers first KS was pretty badly run. People were constantly wondering wtf their stuff was from what I remember of the comments, especially since shipping was erratic and stretched over 4? months or so. Nobody knew who was next or how they were arranging stuff.
CMON got a lot of flak for their zombicide char cards not having markers in z2. DFG wasn't so hot when people were wondering where their stuff was. I remember that cause I was one of the few who ONLY backed for wave 3 and I looked at comments here and on KS every now and then.
Otoh, most of these complaints went away when people finally got their stuff
At a guess those companies didn't repeatedly lie to their backers or generally treat them with contempt. I understand things don't always go to plan and things can run late, and whilst that is part of the reason for being pissed at Prodos the problem with them is about much more than that. I think the scale of anger from backers has much more to do with the attitude of the company than simply the failure on delivery. And that's why it's relevant to this thread btw, you can count me as another who wouldn't buy or back something from any company if I knew Prodos were involved in the production.
I think Sedition Wars was the first KS I ever backed. It helped me to set appropriately low expectations for all future KS projects I would go on to support.
..and for the record, Sedition Wars is one of the many games on my shelf where I *wish* unicast had been an option
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAuldGrump wrote: As mentioned before - Prodos has also had slow deliveries to at least one of the companies that have contracted their services - the infamous Blaine on giant lizard miniature for Mantic.
So, at the very least, their reputation is not spotless.
Add in their Kickstarter problems, and they begin to resemble a Dalmation...
Their work is excellent - when they get around to it. It is the question of when that causes problems.
My suspicion is that they have a cash flow problem - one that may clear up in time.
But that cash flow problem causes a production flow problem.
I am not saying don't use their services - I am saying caveat emptor.
The Auld Grump
It's true Prodos cast up the Blaine mini. I've heard the same about their ability to meet the demand but I don't know if it's true. If it were, I'm not sure why Mantic would continue to use them to produce the Archfiend and Elemental.
My understanding was that Blaine on Dino was being done by someone else, but then the quantity needed was more than expected so they went with prodos to supplement the production. Again Mantic screwed up (shocker I know right?) and didn't order enough so they asked prodos for more, which they had to squeeze into the manufacturing lineup and make bunches of smaller batches. When Mantic finally realized that they lost 200 orders in their great computer system they needed even more. They never came out and said it, but the feeling was at some point prodos had told them they couldn't do anymore, I don't know if it was because of costs, mold expiration or what have you, but eventually I think they fixed the issue (probably threw money at it) and more Blaines have been produced. So not completely Prodos fault, but if they couldn't produce enough in the timeframe Mantic had asked for they should not have taken the contract.
Well, it sounded like Prodos did produce what they were initially contracted for. It was Mantic who screwed that up and had to scramble to get more made.
I've backed a few Kickstarters that Prodos did the production on. The stuff was delivered more or less on time with good quality. Hell, even though my Warzone stuff was late, they still got it to me and even threw in freebies as compensation. AVP really seems to be their main sore point and is the one that's created the most vocal detractors.
And if you want a small company with a clean track record, I would go with Anvil Industry.
I literally had typed up this list at work the other day. I removed it from my scratchpad yesterday. Since I'm at work these are from memory, I apologize if I got some wrong and doesn't include non-Kickstarter projects. I'm missing quite a few but will have to dig through emails and messages. I put (?) next to ones I can't verify because I'm not at home. I also didn't include projects that didn't fund, but has done 3d prints and some casting from them.
Prodos Ran: - Mutant Chronicles Warzon
- Alien vs Predator
Prodos Involved: - Demigods Rising: 3d printed masters, UniCast for miniatures
- Fragged Empire: 3d printed masters, casting, 3d sculpting(?)
- Miniature13: 3d printed masters, casting
- Atlantis Miniatures - 28mm Golbins, Orcs, and Trolls: 3d printed masters(?)
- XTerra: 3d printing masters
- Infamy the Big Smoke: 3d printing masters
- Mantic stuff: various masters, casting (I believe they have been part of 3 of their Kickstarters)
- Wolsung - 3d printed masters, casting
- The Devil's Run: Route 666: 3d printed masters
- Marine Tactical Unit - 15mm Scale Miniatures: 3d printed masters, casting
- Panzerfauste: Mechanised Warfare in a Mythical Realm: 3d printed masters
- Fantasy Resin Custom Miniatures Collection: 3d printed masters(?)
There are 6 that I left out. They specifically didn't advertise they used Prodos but we discussed a few things in messenger that isn't my place to list them. They did not list the name because of the negative connotations that was associated with them.
All I know of are their own, Blaine via Kings of War, Demigods Rising... what else?
They did the resins for the second Demigods kickstarter after Titanforge gak the bed on quality and then pretty much refused to address the crappy castings. The Prodos mini's that were made were done pretty quickly, and the quality was really good.
And speaking of the Demigods kickstarter (if you want a good example of a kickstarter going to hell in a hand-basket, look there), since the plastic pieces aren't going to be made, Prodos is going to be doing the board game pieces in the Unicast, and in a few weeks we should see the first production casts being made and shown. So given a month's time or so we'll have a pretty good look at the capabilities of Prodos producing the miniatures, and the quality.
I literally had typed up this list at work the other day. I removed it from my scratchpad yesterday. Since I'm at work these are from memory, I apologize if I got some wrong and doesn't include non-Kickstarter projects. I'm missing quite a few but will have to dig through emails and messages. I put (?) next to ones I can't verify because I'm not at home. I also didn't include projects that didn't fund, but has done 3d prints and some casting from them.
Prodos Ran: - Mutant Chronicles Warzon
- Alien vs Predator
Prodos Involved: - Demigods Rising: 3d printed masters, UniCast for miniatures
- Fragged Empire: 3d printed masters, casting, 3d sculpting(?)
- Miniature13: 3d printed masters, casting
- Atlantis Miniatures - 28mm Golbins, Orcs, and Trolls: 3d printed masters(?)
- XTerra: 3d printing masters
- Infamy the Big Smoke: 3d printing masters
- Mantic stuff: various masters, casting (I believe they have been part of 3 of their Kickstarters)
- Wolsung - 3d printed masters, casting
- The Devil's Run: Route 666: 3d printed masters
- Marine Tactical Unit - 15mm Scale Miniatures: 3d printed masters, casting
- Panzerfauste: Mechanised Warfare in a Mythical Realm: 3d printed masters
- Fantasy Resin Custom Miniatures Collection: 3d printed masters(?)
There are 6 that I left out. They specifically didn't advertise they used Prodos but we discussed a few things in messenger that isn't my place to list them. They did not list the name because of the negative connotations that was associated with them.
There are some bigger names beyond Mantic but while I'd provide the info with the best intentions I have no doubt the knowledge would be used for evil.
All I know of are their own, Blaine via Kings of War, Demigods Rising... what else?
They did the resins for the second Demigods kickstarter after Titanforge gak the bed on quality and then pretty much refused to address the crappy castings. The Prodos mini's that were made were done pretty quickly, and the quality was really good.
And speaking of the Demigods kickstarter (if you want a good example of a kickstarter going to hell in a hand-basket, look there), since the plastic pieces aren't going to be made, Prodos is going to be doing the board game pieces in the Unicast, and in a few weeks we should see the first production casts being made and shown. So given a month's time or so we'll have a pretty good look at the capabilities of Prodos producing the miniatures, and the quality.
Is Prodos responsible for the Demigods KS going to hell or brought in for cleanup or something else?
Sad to see Titanforge going the way they did. Most of the X-terra stuff was actually nice and it was delivered in a timely manner to I think like 95% with a few people chiming in for a few months after about PM messups or address changes. I have to look at the pieces again. I didn't notice Prodos' involvement in that project.
The list is bigger than I thought it would be too. Does anyone know if they had any hand in the Maxmini Green Alliance KS? That one is (as I understand at least) going through some issues.
MLaw wrote: Is Prodos responsible for the Demigods KS going to hell or brought in for cleanup or something else?
Sad to see Titanforge going the way they did. Most of the X-terra stuff was actually nice and it was delivered in a timely manner to I think like 95% with a few people chiming in for a few months after about PM messups or address changes. I have to look at the pieces again. I didn't notice Prodos' involvement in that project.
Prodos is doing cleanup. They did provide a few things to Demigods on credit, quickly start the modifications to 3d sculpting and then got their prints done. They are tooling the UniCast molds for them currently.
Prodos did the 3d masters for some of the items for TitanForges XTerra. TitanForge did their own casting. It is my understanding there was an issue with TitanForge and Demigods.
They were not involved with MaxMini Green Alliance, as far as I'm aware.
It was Titan Forge, not Prodos, that made a mess with Demigods Rising. I was getting them both mixed up, which is funny seeing as how I backed that one too.
PsychoticStorm wrote: So, Prodos as a contractor not only has delivered, but acted as a rescue for a few companies been stuck with unreliable contractors?
Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves. As a potential client I believe its better not to dwell to much into this, I mean some are on a mission to prove Prodos is a great company victim of impossible circumstances while others would probably burn this company down if given the chance. If companies are huge I can understand the two faced behavior, since to many corporate suits are involved in making decisions... but for such small company I cannot understand that, since all comes from the same few people. So yeah better not think to much about it because If I do I would probably give up on Prodos.
Besides the vast majority of people on this forum will deal with Prodos not on a manufacturer Level but rather as a direct client... on that front they seem to be falling a bit short and may I say, actually not being honest about their decisions.
I do not do KS because of many reasons so obviously I'm not burned, but I do feel sympathetic with those who are. Its up to you really if you really want to push Prodos as a great company with immaculate reputation in one branch of their overall biz but thats not going to end up well and will rub many people in the wrong way.
Like I said I hope Prodos gets over this and delivers things as promised ASAP until then good for them that they are excellent with the manufacturers, its a good starting point. Hope it turns out for the best for everyone.
Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.
NAVARRO wrote: Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.
That's a very good question but probably better left to a separate thread (other than this one or the general AVP KS thread). Given that the ks "exclusive" version is anything but, unicast might allow them to reach their original goal of a newbie friendly retail board game version. If you start one, post a link here.
Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves.
Possibly because the KS fulfilment issues are not related to casting. It seems like Prodos has issues with shipping and maintaining an up to date list of what should go where, more than getting the product done.
NAVARRO wrote: Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves.
It actually makes perfect sense. It also goes back to the speculation that there is financial trouble when you think about it.
You are way over budget for various reasons because all the money has been poured into AvP. They haven't expanded any of their lines, focused on anything new because it was focused on AvP. Without putting money and development into new products, games and expansions they put a choke on renvenue coming in. The decision was made to put an amount aside to ship a big chunk of items, then completely segrate themselves from AvP. That means only AvP income essentially gets used for AvP stuff, while other money is focused on other things like new miniatures for Mutant Chronciles, developing new games, etc. There also explains decisions by various individuals to leave Prodos as there could have been an "exit deal" since they went on to produce their own games instead of a pension/termination because of downsizing. They put the focus on the casting, printing and sculpting business (which is technically a seperate entity, forgot the name). This is hypothetical but is a valid given the history of business in similar situations based on the actions. As I said before I'm not sure I would make the same choice but I do understand it from a business aspect.
I saw on another forum last night that there are only a handfull of things outstanding on AVP and from what the less emotional people on the other message board were saying is that Prodos is having a nightmare of a time getting fox to sign off on things. One of the posters said they were in the group waiting for those last things and had just received notification that their items were being sent. I think cross-posting isn't allowed but it's on Reapers' boards.
As to someone claiming anyone here is trying to say Prodos is spotless, or a victim of circumstance on AVP.. I don't actually recall anyone saying that in this thread. I frankly don't care about Prodos one way or another but apparently if you're not screaming for their heads then that means you love them. To me that seems like an unrealistically black and white polarized viewpoint. It's possible for someone to be bad at one thing and good at another without themselves being completely bad or good.
The facts are pretty simple. Prodos screwed up AVP royally and Prodos has been involved with something like a dozen plus other companies in one way or another without notable problems (that have been shared).
When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers.
I have worked for a company before that took on a project and they lowballed it on time and budget very very hard. It ran out of money really fast and we had to stop work on it and work other projects until we scraped enough funds to work on the other project. That was computer based training and I was just doing 3d, Flash, animation, and programming but it was a small company so the management talked about stuff pretty openly. When it gets to the point where you have to decide to either go delinquent on a deliverable or not eat or go under as a business, then you have to make decisions that suck. Prodos made a decision that sucks. It's that simple.
NAVARRO wrote: on that front they seem to be falling a bit short and may I say, actually not being honest about their decisions.
Only for their Kickstarters, as a standard manufacturer/retailer they are perfectly fine.
I have bought quite a lot of Warzone stuff in the last 2 years and while they had some issues with atrocious cast quality when they just started out but that seems to be behind them now. They also have good customer service, I had a particularly badly cast mini replaced (one of the original Bauhaus Vulkans) within about 4-5 working days.
NAVARRO wrote: Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves.
It actually makes perfect sense. It also goes back to the speculation that there is financial trouble when you think about it.
You are way over budget for various reasons because all the money has been poured into AvP. They haven't expanded any of their lines, focused on anything new because it was focused on AvP. Without putting money and development into new products, games and expansions they put a choke on renvenue coming in. The decision was made to put an amount aside to ship a big chunk of items, then completely segrate themselves from AvP. That means only AvP income essentially gets used for AvP stuff, while other money is focused on other things like new miniatures for Mutant Chronciles, developing new games, etc. There also explains decisions by various individuals to leave Prodos as there could have been an "exit deal" since they went on to produce their own games instead of a pension/termination because of downsizing. They put the focus on the casting, printing and sculpting business (which is technically a seperate entity, forgot the name). This is hypothetical but is a valid given the history of business in similar situations based on the actions. As I said before I'm not sure I would make the same choice but I do understand it from a business aspect.
Its a believable scenario and maybe closer than I imagined it to be. Good valid argument. When I say weird is because today we see them ship AVP to stores and distributors and sell them a bit everywhere, surely they should have reserved a bit of that money to honor older commitments first. Like you say given the choice to different people and business they will choose differently hence thats how a rep is created.
@MLaw you still seem very interested in not listening, because if this is directed to me:
"When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers. "
Its clearly reading what you want to read. Guess what just because someone does not share your views does not make them angry or with agendas. Not going to even mention the rest of your post. Not worth the time going on a eternal loop.
I said my piece, this unicast presented as it is does not satisfy any of the things I look forward on a miniature.
Prodos rep is a mixed feeling and I would prefer that it was not something that needed to be debated. Hope that in a few months all is cleared for the best.
MLaw wrote: I saw on another forum last night that there are only a handfull of things outstanding on AVP and from what the less emotional people on the other message board were saying is that Prodos is having a nightmare of a time getting fox to sign off on things. One of the posters said they were in the group waiting for those last things and had just received notification that their items were being sent.
There are folks who have gotten NOTHING up to and including missing the wave 1 items that have been on store shelves for 6+ months and therefore WAAAAAAY past any Fox approval hurdle. Over in the KS thread, folks have taken to ordering additional AVP items to give Prodos a few extra bucks and having them ship their long delinquent rewards that they've been looking at on store shelves since 2015 along with it. But, hey, if a guy on the Reaper boards says something then it must apply to thousands of other backers, right?
When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers.
They probably do have an agenda... getting their long overdue rewards that keep getting pushed back further and further. I'm not angry at Prodos as a would be backer (who unbacked in the last 5 minutes) but I'll certainly not praise them until they stop continuing to screw over a group of folks that I was very close to joining. I'd never buy any prodos product that wasn't in front of me in the store physically so I could both receive and evaluate it immediately.
I have worked for a company before that took on a project and they lowballed it on time and budget very very hard. It ran out of money really fast and we had to stop work on it and work other projects until we scraped enough funds to work on the other project. That was computer based training and I was just doing 3d, Flash, animation, and programming but it was a small company so the management talked about stuff pretty openly. When it gets to the point where you have to decide to either go delinquent on a deliverable or not eat or go under as a business, then you have to make decisions that suck. Prodos made a decision that sucks. It's that simple.
It really is that simple... until folks like yourself try to pressure the victims in this case to just suck it up and shut up instead of applying some positive consumer pressure to the perpetrators (Prodos obviously in this case) to make it right for their own company's sake. That makes it worse. You've expended some effort into the former... how much time have you spent doing the latter? Btw, complaining about complaining is by definition still complaining.
Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.
No for several factors.
The most important one and it is from Warzone, is because they change design direction if a few vocal backers bark loud enouph, the Bauhaus redesign from something factional and designed at present to the old tired design of two and a half decades ago because a few but vocal backers wanted the old design.
Second is because it is evident they cannot handle a licence from a big licence holder, it is quite probable that knowing what they know now they could handle it better, but meh needs to be proven first.
Thirdly is because AVP leaves me cold as are most or all licences, I would rather see something new and original.
I can understand about backers not having items send, Mantic still own me a deluxe dreadball pit and a few miscast/ never send team members, CMON needed a year to send me the missing sleeves from Xenosyft and still has not send me that cell door from Zombiside, but I do not go raving on every thread their name is mentioned.
I guess it would depend on if backing AVP2 would be the next new condition on me getting my entire AVP one rewards shipped, of which I have recieved nothing.
As to the claims of financial problems, Jarek confirmed that there was money kept aside for shipping and they were not out of money. Was this another lie? You decide.
PsychoticStorm wrote: As with KDM maybe, the rates changed from then to now and money sufficient then may not be enouph now? who knows?
This was a few months ago.
I'm completely understanding of rates increasing, but not being told there's a problem?
Looking at AvP, there's a chance based on everything that's happened so far, that if I ever do recieve my stuff, it will be the retail version, with multicoloured door stands (unless they've run out of those as well), with extra miniatures shipped loose in garbage bags taped to the side of a box, and maybe the blue resin bendy versions.
The problems with Prodos go well beyond not delivering, that is why it's an issue when they claim great new technology.
For what it is worth, I've read of folks getting the KS version with the funky colored door stands, so that wondrous phenomena isn't limited to the retail version.
But Prodos is a great company! Obviously Fox is to blame for the inability to source door stands in the correct quantity and color.
CptJake wrote: For what it is worth, I've read of folks getting the KS version with the funky colored door stands, so that wondrous phenomena isn't limited to the retail version.
But Prodos is a great company! Obviously Fox is to blame for the inability to source door stands in the correct quantity and color.
Absolutely!
Of course it's nothing to do with them sending out so many retail copies, all the while publically denying they are filling retail orders first, that led to them running out of components to fill the Kickstarter copies, because as we all know, the problem is just shipping. Caused by Fox. Not Prodos.
PsychoticStorm wrote: So what is the connection with their reliability as contracted manufacturers?
When faced with adversity (even largely of their own making), Prodos has an ongoing proven track record of having no qualms in disappointing parties who have already paid in favor of those who will pay. Hopefully they won't continue that trend over in the business to business portion of their work.
PsychoticStorm wrote: "Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?
Why is it a seperate issue? Oh, it's a Kickstarter so it doesn't count?
Issues with Fox on some aspects I understand. The way they have acted on everything they as Prodos are responsible for is somehow ok, because it's just backers of their Kickstarter?
we don't even know how much of the Fox problems were actually Fox's fault, all we have are prodos word for it and let's look at how honest they've been.
Really I don't think there would be soooooooo much crud being tossed if you weren't such a die hard defender. If you would have just said "okay they have issues" and let it go then I know I wouldn't be here constantly shooting down your defenses.
MLaw wrote: I saw on another forum last night that there are only a handfull of things outstanding on AVP and from what the less emotional people on the other message board were saying is that Prodos is having a nightmare of a time getting fox to sign off on things. One of the posters said they were in the group waiting for those last things and had just received notification that their items were being sent.
There are folks who have gotten NOTHING up to and including missing the wave 1 items that have been on store shelves for 6+ months and therefore WAAAAAAY past any Fox approval hurdle. Over in the KS thread, folks have taken to ordering additional AVP items to give Prodos a few extra bucks and having them ship their long delinquent rewards that they've been looking at on store shelves since 2015 along with it. But, hey, if a guy on the Reaper boards says something then it must apply to thousands of other backers, right?
When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers.
They probably do have an agenda... getting their long overdue rewards that keep getting pushed back further and further. I'm not angry at Prodos as a would be backer (who unbacked in the last 5 minutes) but I'll certainly not praise them until they stop continuing to screw over a group of folks that I was very close to joining. I'd never buy any prodos product that wasn't in front of me in the store physically so I could both receive and evaluate it immediately.
I have worked for a company before that took on a project and they lowballed it on time and budget very very hard. It ran out of money really fast and we had to stop work on it and work other projects until we scraped enough funds to work on the other project. That was computer based training and I was just doing 3d, Flash, animation, and programming but it was a small company so the management talked about stuff pretty openly. When it gets to the point where you have to decide to either go delinquent on a deliverable or not eat or go under as a business, then you have to make decisions that suck. Prodos made a decision that sucks. It's that simple.
It really is that simple... until folks like yourself try to pressure the victims in this case to just suck it up and shut up instead of applying some positive consumer pressure to the perpetrators (Prodos obviously in this case) to make it right for their own company's sake. That makes it worse. You've expended some effort into the former... how much time have you spent doing the latter? Btw, complaining about complaining is by definition still complaining.
I'm not going to do the edit quote thing.. that's way too much work for a random post on one of many forums.. but look.. You're throwing yourself in front of general comments. When I said that people who admitted that they weren't even AVP backers are posting the same stuff on every page.. that's obviously NOT directed at you. Also.. you're ignoring that I've repeatedly said that Prodos has botched their AVP Kickstarter. When I talk about business decisions.. business decisions rarely take anyone's feelings into account. So Yeah.. that sucks. I have said that sucks. What I have never said is, suck it up and be quiet. What I DID say is WE GET IT. If people made this much noise on every OTHER place that Prodos actually reads, then something would be done. If people commented this frequentily to FOX about their interests in this, then maybe something would get done. Kicking a rotting corpse of a horse in a N&R forum isn't going to get you your stuff. Is that a bit raw? Maybe but I was in your exact spot for a couple hundred bucks for the G&G battleboards, Ranger Project, and Burn-In Designs.. I started getting on Kickstarter EVERY DAY. I started going to their posts on blogs and facebook and other forums that I knew they were active on and hounding them directly. We know not to back a Prodos KS. I wouldn't anyway. Right now technology is in their hands that is intriguing and beneficial and what I would think gamers would want is to understand what that tech can do and how to get it out to more vendors.
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Theophony wrote: we don't even know how much of the Fox problems were actually Fox's fault, all we have are prodos word for it and let's look at how honest they've been.
Really I don't think there would be soooooooo much crud being tossed if you weren't such a die hard defender. If you would have just said "okay they have issues" and let it go then I know I wouldn't be here constantly shooting down your defenses.
Would everyone let it go? I know you weren't directing that at me but the same notion should apply right? I've said they had issues. I offered other thoughts that weren't "burn them!!!!" and it wasn't even praise but I'm being labeled as a champion.. The burned people's responses are so bitter and hateful that they don't allow anything other than cut and dry polarized hatred or love.. and that's insanity to me.
PsychoticStorm wrote: "Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?
Why is it a seperate issue? Oh, it's a Kickstarter so it doesn't count?
Issues with Fox on some aspects I understand. The way they have acted on everything they as Prodos are responsible for is somehow ok, because it's just backers of their Kickstarter?
Why should it be a separate issue? if they have a stellar failure and 12+ successful works as contractors which is the track record?
Prodos sent me my missing Archon tail today. Got it in less than 2 weeks.
That's neither here nor there, but it was certainly a lot easier getting that from them than say, having to hassle with Titan Forge or Avatars of War over and over and OVER again to replace a missing part.
It's a really clean cast. Fit well too.
Putting the thing together makes me hopeful Prodos can get their gak together, produce some more somewhat original figures, and get this whole debacle past them.
Totally going to order some Unicast stuff when I get back from Japan, especially if it helps get some more coins in their coffers in order to get you guys your AVP stuff.
PsychoticStorm wrote: "Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?
Why is it a seperate issue? Oh, it's a Kickstarter so it doesn't count?
Issues with Fox on some aspects I understand. The way they have acted on everything they as Prodos are responsible for is somehow ok, because it's just backers of their Kickstarter?
Why should it be a separate issue? if they have a stellar failure and 12+ successful works as contractors which is the track record?
As the majority of us are dealing with Prodos as customers and not contractors, it's the failure.
Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.
No for several factors.
The most important one and it is from Warzone, is because they change design direction if a few vocal backers bark loud enouph, the Bauhaus redesign from something factional and designed at present to the old tired design of two and a half decades ago because a few but vocal backers wanted the old design.
Second is because it is evident they cannot handle a licence from a big licence holder, it is quite probable that knowing what they know now they could handle it better, but meh needs to be proven first.
Thirdly is because AVP leaves me cold as are most or all licences, I would rather see something new and original.
I can understand about backers not having items send, Mantic still own me a deluxe dreadball pit and a few miscast/ never send team members, CMON needed a year to send me the missing sleeves from Xenosyft and still has not send me that cell door from Zombiside, but I do not go raving on every thread their name is mentioned.
I forgot how fast they changed the designs bit. To be honest that can be a good or bad thing, for example I understand your bauhaus point but it actually was a life saviour for their spacecrusade fiasco cheesy minis.
As for licenses and looking at your avatar would you not go crazy with a Halflife KS? Personally for me Aliens is my favorite license of all times I'm a huge fan of it for decades now, to see it handled like this is errr disappointing. Surely better days will come.
To be more on topic when I was at Salute years ago with the first prototypes I was impressed with the durability of the resin used since Aliens tails were soooo thin yet quite resistant. A year later I checked the production models IRL and was still very impressed. This is to say that its not all doom or gloom. They are good with their casting and that is reassuring for the new Unicast thing. Depends also on the resin they will use for it.
A bit shame that it has drifted away from UniCast but I am more than happy to clarify couple points.
1. KS AvP - a lot explained to backers already, we are simply no 1 in eyes of 3rd party, due to revenue it may generate. So I assume if we where to make a video game, that would sold in 10s of millions copies we would have someone working with us 30h a week, as we are not even in small % of that we are lucky if someone look at us once a month, thus it takes a lot of time to get even a simple answer via email, not to mention if someone look at it and say : this needs changing, lets start over again.
If you remember we had a prototype sent out for approval in September 2014, the game was approved to production in July 2015, with no changed needed to original prototype.
Personally I am not surprised that no major manufacturer wanted this licence, it seems they simply had more knowledge how the process is constructed (approval and so on) and passed on it.
2. UniCast is unique due to 2 factors, a) models quality b) production capacity c) low cost. UniCast it's resin quality level with HIPS manufacturing cycle time and cost of PVC - no other manufacturer is able to do this, thus it's a bit revolution.
3. Prodos supported many KS, the list is very long. We are currently working with 4 customers that have made their Kickstarters and no one want to manufacture their miniatures due to several reasons (bad 3d design or complexity), we fix all the problems and really in some cases we are like Get Out of Jail Free card for them.
As for future of not-prodos projects, we are asking our customers to not disclosure who is the manufacturer, a) due to our reputation with AvP KS - that's obvious , b) we have enough work for next year and beyond.
Currently UniCast will be pouring out 1.4 million miniatures in next 8 months, not including new AvP or SC we are working on.
4. AvP2, it wont be a KS. AvP:THB is a hobby product, meaning that many store chains are not interested in this product (toys R us or Argos for instance ), however, as there is a need for a classic board game in AvP settings (by classic i mean no need of models assembly with simplicity of zombicide ), we will make one using unicast.
5. The last one is about Warzone and the point that we've redesigned miniatures - this comes down to cost of manufacturing, old designs where 3 times more expensive to manufacture that current version and we have been selling the old design to retail for almost no profit... thus, we had 2 options to choose from : a) kill the project b) redesign the miniatures and make them less costly to manufacture, however, many of the KS WZR fans did not appreciate our decision, well maybe in years to come the KS version will gain more in value...
Thanks, to clarify, English is not my 1st language, it's my 3rd, and my intention was not to offend anyone with this post, thanks.
Hi Warzone
There's a really easy way to get me back onside as an AvP backer. Communication. You suck at it.
I don't care if you're late, I care that I have no idea what's going on, you say stuff will be sent by a date, then nothing. Regular updates on what's going on, regular communication, not a post every month saying "end of this month for sure".
This late and a lot of us don't have wave 1. I get what happened with the delay, I don't get why it's still a problem, especially when you seem to have organised a shipping partner in Australia at least, and hopefully other countries (retailers do have stock).
The reason AvP has hurt your reputation is that it's showed you fall apart in a crisis. I have supported and defended many late kickstarters. The ones I criticise are the ones that give me no information, bad information or ignore me altogether.
Those Youngblood predators look awesome, too bad I didn't see them in a Kickstarter update.
You're obviously capable of doing some amazing product, for the love of god pull you're finger out on the service side. Are you really completely unaware of all the unanswered messages? It's posted everywhere.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: 2. UniCast is unique due to 2 factors, a) models quality b) production capacity c) low cost. UniCast it's resin quality level with HIPS manufacturing cycle time and cost of PVC - no other manufacturer is able to do this, thus it's a bit revolution.
Have you considered filing a patent for the unicast manufacturing process.
That would allow you to pull in licensing money by allowing others to make use of the tecnique in their manufacturing.
CptJake wrote: Sounds like Jarek and crew are playing CYA with their assets.
No, this side of the business has always existed and been separate entity. If you dig into the AvP thread again you'll see a few times where it has come up.
Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name (might have been Archon, couldn't remember). This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.
CptJake wrote: Sounds like Jarek and crew are playing CYA with their assets.
No, this side of the business has always existed and been separate entity. If you dig into the AvP thread again you'll see a few times where it has come up.
Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name (might have been Archon, couldn't remember). This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.
But now it is more than casting. Now it is running a KS for a game. The move screams CYA. Especially when the rules for LOAD have sections which are verbatim from another game (not a Prodos or Archon game).
Prodos is now in the game of setting up shell companies and transfering their assets in order to get away from the ramifications that come with using their own name. After stating that they wouldn't use kickstarter again due to the issues with AVP, they've decided to apparently transfer unicast to an "Archon" company separate from but owned by Prodos and start a kickstarter supposedly based in the US under yet another separate name as the public face while supposedly hiding behind an NDA... and they would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids! It appears that it is easier to just buy a new bed instead of cleaning up the old one after you crap where you sleep for so long.
They (the Prodos UK entity) had some sort of semi-public split with an owner last year and pretty much moved most everything to their Polish entity soon after while at the same time being delinquent in filing necessary UK corporate documentation (all documented in the AVP thread... feel three to trudge through 250 pages for the exact quotes and links). If they're now owning their awesome new tech under yet another name instead of even their Polish Prodos entity, is there really anything stopping them from just closing up shop and leaving debtors of UK Prodos (including AVP backers) in the cold ala Defiance Games or Mierce?
@Dark, I'm not sure if you were aware of this yet another Prodos entity but you may want to make sure you're contracting with the "right" company that they plan on keeping long term.
CptJake wrote: But now it is more than casting. Now it is running a KS for a game. The move screams CYA. Especially when the rules for LOAD have sections which are verbatim from another game (not a Prodos or Archon game). I call shenanigans.
As it was brought up a few times in this thread, Prodos is not running the KS. The company Archon/Prodos however you want to associate isn't running it. They are manufacturing it. They have existed for a long time as we stated providing manufacturing for multiple Kickstarters. This is one of the reasons (which I even hinted at but couldn't remember the other name) why this side of the business has been handled differently.
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warboss wrote: @Dark, I'm not sure if you were aware of this yet another Prodos entity but you may want to make sure you're contracting with the "right" company that they plan on keeping long term.
Yes I was. I just couldn't remember the name of it. They brought up over a year ago in the AvP thread when discussions came out that they ran out of money from the KS. This side has always been separate from them at least business-wise.
Dark Severance wrote: As it was brought up a few times in this thread, Prodos is not running the KS. The company Archon/Prodos however you want to associate isn't running it. They are manufacturing it. They have existed for a long time as we stated providing manufacturing for multiple Kickstarters. This is one of the reasons (which I even hinted at but couldn't remember the other name) why this side of the business has been handled differently.
Providing manufacturing services for games owned and created by other companies is completely different than manufacturing and creating a game yourself and then just hiring another company to be the KS "face" of the campaign to avoid using your own. You really don't think Prodos is "running" the KS/making the decisions/calling the shots just because they hired some guy in Chicago to use his company's name for 30 days?
Warzone Resurrection wrote: 2. UniCast is unique due to 2 factors, a) models quality b) production capacity c) low cost. UniCast it's resin quality level with HIPS manufacturing cycle time and cost of PVC - no other manufacturer is able to do this, thus it's a bit revolution.
Have you considered filing a patent for the unicast manufacturing process.
That would allow you to pull in licensing money by allowing others to make use of the tecnique in their manufacturing.
Hi there, manufacturing process cannot be patented, thus, the only solution here is to provide services and keep our cards close to the chest.
@Warboss, For clarification, Archon is a stand alone company, that is existing and providing services for 2.5+ years, the list is long of Archon partners.
Prodos is distribution/sales company only, is not providing any services or manufacturing. It has not financial debts or loans, only KS to finish, and holds 3 different licenses.
warboss wrote: Providing manufacturing services for games owned and created by other companies is completely different than manufacturing and creating a game yourself and then just hiring another company to be the KS "face" of the campaign to avoid using your own. You really don't think Prodos is "running" the KS/making the decisions/calling the shots just because they hired some guy in Chicago to use his company's name for 30 days?
I don't think Prodos is running the Kickstarter at all, they are only involved in terms of manufacturing. I'm not backing LOAD but that is for other reasons.
Part of my background check into them through Board Game Geek led to a facebook group called "Miniature Boardgames - Arham Horror". I'm not sure of the involvement of those within LOAD if they created the group, was created within it, admins or something else but they have been part of that community for awhile. It has been in development with regular updates before it reached Kickstarter. That was how it basically got funded and seemingly came out of nowhere.
I could be completely wrong. There could somehow be some back room deals going on but that seems highly unlikely. The company knew there was going to be a touchy subject but being able to have a goal of $30K vs $90K (without UniCast) seems like an easy choice. The issue is how to deal with people who just want to scream at the top of the lungs because they are angry. That means hiring a PR company. Most people can't respond without getting emotionally involved and hiring a PR company is a good move. It is seen in the comments sections alone by what they chose to answer and haven't answered. It was a bold and risking move to say Archon was the manufacturer, previously they stated they wouldn't bring it up until after the close of the Kickstarter (I am guessing they figured if there were people unhappy, it still wouldn't prevent chargebacks). Most of the backers seem behind LOAD. The only involvement from Prodos/Archon that I can see and establish has just been strictly manufacturing.
CptJake wrote: But now it is more than casting. Now it is running a KS for a game. The move screams CYA. Especially when the rules for LOAD have sections which are verbatim from another game (not a Prodos or Archon game). I call shenanigans.
As it was brought up a few times in this thread, Prodos is not running the KS. The company Archon/Prodos however you want to associate isn't running it. They are manufacturing it. They have existed for a long time as we stated providing manufacturing for multiple Kickstarters. This is one of the reasons (which I even hinted at but couldn't remember the other name) why this side of the business has been handled differently.
Archon IS running it. Their words, not mine:
Hi guys,
There have been a lot of fuss about who the creators of LOAD really are. Let us lift the veil of mystery!
Creator of LOAD is Archon sp. Z o.o
Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.
...
LOAD is first game that is designed and run by Archon and we hope to have many more after this one is successfully delivered to backers.
Or do you interpret their words differently than they are written?
That is my mistake. I actually did not see it stated "the creators of LOAD really are". I stand corrected in that part then.
The rules side of things and the people who were contracted out for the rules then must be who were "publicly" being the face at the time on Board Game Geek and Facebook. Although the rules and development have been around for awhile. I honestly didn't see a link between them . That explains why initially finding a business address was difficult if not existent at all. However as said before I was backing for other reasons, mostly because it was first created and 0 backed and also I don't like backing large KS from new companies, even if it is revealed to be another company entirely.
@Warboss, For clarification, Archon is a stand alone company, that is existing and providing services for 2.5+ years, the list is long of Archon partners.
Prodos is distribution/sales company only, is not providing any services or manufacturing. It has not financial debts or loans, only KS to finish, and holds 3 different licenses.
Hope this clears out the situation, thanks.
Thanks
I would argue that the KS rewards left to fulfill (namely AVP) are a debt but I appreciate you clarifying things.
ced1106 wrote: Parts of the formerly downloadable rules were plagiarized -- as in copied word for word -- from Rum and Bones 1st edition.
Was this during the LOAD Kickstarter?
I will see if I can find the link for the rules I found. They didn't look like Rum and Bones, but to be fair that is still boxed on the shelf at the moment. These were from before the Kickstarter, but I also didn't download rules from the Kickstarter and compare. Just curious if they completely went a different route then. Not that I was interested in the rules, MOBA board games don't really interest me.
ced1106 wrote: Parts of the formerly downloadable rules were plagiarized -- as in copied word for word -- from Rum and Bones 1st edition.
Was this during the LOAD Kickstarter?
I will see if I can find the link for the rules I found. They didn't look like Rum and Bones, but to be fair that is still boxed on the shelf at the moment. These were from before the Kickstarter, but I also didn't download rules from the Kickstarter and compare. Just curious if they completely went a different route then. Not that I was interested in the rules, MOBA board games don't really interest me.
I posted a link to the relevant BGG threads over in the AVP thread including one that had direct quotes from both sets of rules. After this discrepancy came to light, it seems ProdosArchonCrittohitgames Loadboardgame.com have taken down the actual file previously linked. From the rules quotes on BGG, the rules were close enough that I'd have expected them to have licensed the rules from Rum and Bones as the differences were similar to those between Star Trek Attack Wing and X-wing.
Hi there, manufacturing process cannot be patented, thus, the only solution here is to provide services and keep our cards close to the chest.
@Warboss, For clarification, Archon is a stand alone company, that is existing and providing services for 2.5+ years, the list is long of Archon partners.
Prodos is distribution/sales company only, is not providing any services or manufacturing. It has not financial debts or loans, only KS to finish, and holds 3 different licenses.
Sorry, this isn't clear. If Prodos only a distribution and sales company, why is Unicast announced on the Prodo website blog as a Prodos manufacturing process ? Who does the manufacturing then ?
I will speak on behalf of my experiences when trying to get them to both 3D print, and then cast up my first bust.
Communication only happened when I initiated it. If I was not pushing, then no follow up or actions were being taken. It felt more like they were on the approach of; he who screams loudest, gets highest priority. That or anything that is less than a few hundred copies ( mine was only 100 copies being requested ) is placed bottom of the pile.
Cost was interesting. I will admit that they are quite a bit cheaper than a lot of their competition out there, but that is changing. However I will also mention that the price changed a few times throughout the lifecycle of the project. Each time going up. To this I was not impressed, as it was only again happening when I reached out for updates on what was happening.
Quality was a mixed bag. I have to say that for a single cast bust, with some decent undercuts, many came out that were perfect replicas of the original. No mold lines or anything visible on them whatsoever. However, this was not the case for all of them. Out of 100, 18 were so badly miscast that they had to be redone. Where you could see where the mold itself had split off, and was still being used for several more afterwards. When they claimed that everything was going through quality control, you can tell this is definitely not the case. So instead of making another mould, they just kept on going regardless of the wear and tear on the 2 ( can tell depending on miscast which they came from ). When I did meet up with them last year at Spiel, I also had to bring a copy back with me as they had sent me everything they had and not kept a master for themselves on hand to make more copies in the future, had I wished that option to be used.
Timing.. from the start of the communication with them right till I received the final copies from them ( the replacements of the miscasts ) we are talking close to 8 months here. With a majority of that on their side due to it just being a 3D render file being sent to them to print and cast up. And with me having to chase them to get timelines back from them, and understand where in the process this was occurring or when I might begin to see copies being made, let along shipped out to me ( in UKbtw ).
Location. If you have checked online to see where they are based you will see something about UK, however that is just a site to allow them to have UK employees for conventions. If you dig deeper you know that they are from Poland, and there is nothing wrong with that. And they state that they are from Warsaw. I had the opportunity to go to Warsaw last year for Hussar, and had asked if I could come and chat with them since I would be in the city and have some spare time. It was then I found out that they are not actually in Warsaw either but several hours outside of the city ( though I cannot be sure of this anymore ) and thus it would be difficult to visit them without a car or personal transportation. End of that conversation, and instead would see them in person at Spiel.
So overall I was not impressed and have found alternatives to produce future pieces on my behalf. Even if it requires a bit more funds, the timing, communication and quality have been far better overall.
Oh and to top if off.. I was also a backer of the kickstarter, which is what drove me to work with them in the first place. However at no point during dealing with me on my bust did they make the effort to send me my pledge, and I have only just received it in person at Salute this past month.
I can appreciate what your trying to achieve with this blog post, and I can see what Prodos is trying to do to get them out of their hole they have dug for themselves, however I think the hole is far too deep for them to climb out at this point. And they really do require some professional assistance in either project management or business administration to get them back on track. Along with one heck of a good PR campaign to bring them back from the darkness. I think that if they can do that, and if they can treat the small contracts with as much respect as the high paying ones, then they will see that they will become the champion of such projects, and help many others grow ( am on my 6th model being produced now with a few more in the wings ) and they would see themselves has having repeat business instead of one shot wonders that learn from their mistake of working with them.
Sorry for the rant.. but you got a good subject here to discuss on.. be it from those that backed them or worked with them behind the scenes.
Cheers
Kyle
Seems to have some good points and some bad. I am still perplexed about the process more than the company practices. It really seems impossible, and I am still wondering if the mold picture is a photo shop mash up.
HIPS is a heat melted plastic that comes in pellets, while resin is chemically activated and comes in a liquid. HIPS is going to require some pressure to cast, resin can be spun or gravity. The fact that they can cycle this as fast as HIPS is truly amazing. The comments I posted above mention the tear in the mold, which suggest a more traditional rubber mold.
kenofyork wrote: I shared this info with a friend who has extensive resin casting experience and wanted to share this thought.
He thinks it is impossible to cast in this manner and he even thinks the picture of the mold has been photo shopped. I think if true this is a major advancement over other methods.
My resin buddy insists that the undercuts will shred any mold with only a few pulls. If you use a plastic injection machine the clamping force will deform the rubber component of the mold when closing. The aluminum frame surrounding the rubber insert can protect it from the clamping force and perhaps prevent this.
But, the entire rubber insert is going to have to be removed after each injection in order to be flexed to remove the model.
The looped handle on the backpack is an enigma for sure, as the mold has to be split in the tiny area under the handle in order for it to be extracted. If you pour a rubber mold over a master you are going to have to melt the master to get it to flow out and then try to cut it with a razor knife.
It is possible the molds themselves are 3D printed, which solves the problem with pouring the molds. I know you can 3D print in soft rubbery materials which could be used as a mold material, and maybe this is how the process was done.
In any event, my small group of tinkers has been having fun trying to figure this out!
I'm thinking your buddy is right - you can't make too many undercuts as it quickly starts to eat the mould. However.. that's not a problem, if you only use each mould once.
My guess of the process would be that they make the moulds in large quantities using wax (using separate wax inserts for undercuts), cast the models in wax moulds using liquid resin, and then melt the wax away. It's one extra step, but the materials would be cheap and it could be done in large batches without expensive machinery.
We have no idea where that random anonymous post is from or how valid.. Maybe it is but even still, when they say the whole thing took 8 months for a company that is juggling quite a bit.. when we don't even know how fast it was promised in the first place?
MLaw wrote: We have no idea where that random anonymous post is from or how valid.. Maybe it is but even still, when they say the whole thing took 8 months for a company that is juggling quite a bit.. when we don't even know how fast it was promised in the first place?
Not really anonymous, just not fully quoted above. Here's the link to the blog (this bit is all down in the comments) and a quote where he ID's his work and if you follow the link you can get his professional name:
Handsome Jack was our first piece, from there I have created my brand logo in both a huge bust, and a single figure. Now working with new artists to bring more to the range such as the Mutant figure, and I have a Deamonic Hermit bust coming out very soon ( just sorting out the casting ).
MLaw wrote: We have no idea where that random anonymous post is from or how valid.. Maybe it is but even still, when they say the whole thing took 8 months for a company that is juggling quite a bit.. when we don't even know how fast it was promised in the first place?
Not really anonymous, just not fully quoted above. Here's the link to the blog (this bit is all down in the comments) and a quote where he ID's his work and if you follow the link you can get his professional name:
Handsome Jack was our first piece, from there I have created my brand logo in both a huge bust, and a single figure. Now working with new artists to bring more to the range such as the Mutant figure, and I have a Deamonic Hermit bust coming out very soon ( just sorting out the casting ).
Thanks for this quote, as a company we had some ups and down is the past mainly due to lack of trained and experienced staff Thanks has changed a lot in last year or so and here is one of more updated feedback we have been receiving about our services:
PsychoticStorm wrote: That is nice to hear care to answer a few questions about Unicast?
Hit me.
Thank you very much.
Unicast seems cheap and good enouph, in its minimum volume, to me for some personal projects I would like to do so I have a few questions for it.
First and foremost is do you accept work from individuals and not companies?
Then I have a few casting questions.
Can you cast in coloured resin?
If yes, what selection of coulours are available? (no need for exact)
Can this method be used with transparent or tinted transparent resin?
What is the minimum volume a figure must have to be casted?
And a sculpting question
I got from BoW Jezebel article that you do 3D sculpting and printing, if I have files from an artist do you change them to be ready for Unicast? or you submit the corrections to the 3D artist?
Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos:
Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
PsychoticStorm wrote: That is nice to hear care to answer a few questions about Unicast?
Hit me.
1. Does the unicast requires that miniatures have an attached base? Or is it up to client choice to include it or not?
2. Do you intend to use this for Wargaming too or just boardgaming?
3. Will you use Unicast on AVP and Warzone?
5. SIze wise do you think that the resin used and unicast can be applied on things at smaller scales like in 15mm? Or there is a limit to how thin the resin can go? There was some problems with Facehuggers for AVP correct?
6. Is the resin used similar to the one you currently use, or is it more flexible and bends more?
7. Can you cast in Unicast only from a 3d file or traditional sculpts can also be used and cast in Unicast?
8. Cheeky one now... Will you develop more things for AVP?
Thank for replying and glad to know you intend to communicate more with the community.
PsychoticStorm wrote: That is nice to hear care to answer a few questions about Unicast?
Hit me.
Thank you very much.
Unicast seems cheap and good enouph, in its minimum volume, to me for some personal projects I would like to do so I have a few questions for it.
First and foremost is do you accept work from individuals and not companies?
Then I have a few casting questions.
Can you cast in coloured resin?
If yes, what selection of coulours are available? (no need for exact)
Can this method be used with transparent or tinted transparent resin?
What is the minimum volume a figure must have to be casted?
And a sculpting question
I got from BoW Jezebel article that you do 3D sculpting and printing, if I have files from an artist do you change them to be ready for Unicast? or you submit the corrections to the 3D artist?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for your questions,
1. Minimum volume for Unicast is 250.
2. Yes we provide services for individuals.
3.Yes, Blue, Red, Green,- only dark colours , for instance no Yellow.
4. No to transparent.
5. 250.
6. Yes we can do this, however we would need to charge you work hours, alternatively we can give you guidance what needs to fixed.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos:
Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
Ugh. Seriously, what's with the pompous attitude? The way you're crowing anyone would think you'd got a vested interest.
Don't act like you're somehow vindicated when a) the issues clearly remain and b) people have already posted since Prodos started participating raising those issues.
PsychoticStorm wrote: That is nice to hear care to answer a few questions about Unicast?
Hit me.
1. Does the unicast requires that miniatures have an attached base? Or is it up to client choice to include it or not?
2. Do you intend to use this for Wargaming too or just boardgaming?
3. Will you use Unicast on AVP and Warzone?
5. SIze wise do you think that the resin used and unicast can be applied on things at smaller scales like in 15mm? Or there is a limit to how thin the resin can go? There was some problems with Facehuggers for AVP correct?
6. Is the resin used similar to the one you currently use, or is it more flexible and bends more?
7. Can you cast in Unicast only from a 3d file or traditional sculpts can also be used and cast in Unicast?
8. Cheeky one now... Will you develop more things for AVP?
Thank for replying and glad to know you intend to communicate more with the community.
Hi thanks for your questions.
1. Yes it needs to have a base, if provided mini has no base we would need to add it, it's a crucial element in the process.
2. Yes, we are investigating with our partners how wargaming market will react to plug-and-play type of miniatures., based on that data we may release product in fully assembled form.
3. Not current projects, however we are working on new AvP game with 21 Unicast miniatures, at 49.99 USD price range - think Descent.
4.
5. We are testing it for a customer that is going onto KS with his 15mm models, 1st test are very positive, however we have to find a solution to thick runner.
6. Elements thin as 0.5mm are flexible, however 2.5mm + are hard but not brittle. Material is similar to resin we have used in the past.
7. Only 3D. Process required models surface in 3d form.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos:
Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
Ugh. Seriously, what's with the pompous attitude? The way you're crowing anyone would think you'd got a vested interest.
Don't act like you're somehow vindicated when a) the issues clearly remain and b) people have already posted since Prodos started participating raising those issues.
I guess he doesn't realise that there has been a lot of back and forth between backers and Prodos on the AvP thread already, and that perhaps people might not want to further derail this thread by rehashing arguements that have already happened. He has already expressed interest in AvP backers not raising their issues here, but now it seems he's reversed that opinion. Weird.
I do have a question for Prodos. When is this new AvP game planned for release? And will it impact KS fulfillment?
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos:
Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
So flame baiting is the solution? Your own "internet wimp whose big brother just came over" solution? Prodos already knows what lots of folks think about their horrible attitude and inability to keep their word. It shows up in every Prodos related thread and likely affects their bottom line since they tried so hard to hide their involvement in their latest venture. But I guess it's harder to look at the big picture when you're carrying all that water for them...
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys? Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos: Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
So flame baiting is the solution? Your own "internet wimp whose big brother just came over" solution? Prodos already knows what lots of folks think about their horrible attitude and inability to keep their word. It shows up in every Prodos related thread and likely affects their bottom line since they tried so hard to hide their involvement in their latest venture. But I guess it's harder to look at the big picture when you're carrying all that water for them...
I sincerely am not. Everyone had issues but cleared out as soon as there was a legitimate opportunity to have those issues addressed. To me that was astounding and genuinely baffling. The only thing I am curious about that hadn't been asked at the time was their actual location.. I'm about to go back over their posts and see if they addressed it but if they didn't to me that's a huge red flag. All their other red flags are already flying... so me not repeating what those are saying doesn't mean that I support them. It means I don't like repetition. They have a lot to answer for but.. they're seemingly answering for it. So let's get back to them answering it and if you have questions for them instead of pointed comments towards me then now is your chance.
EDIT: As to others - I did not back AVP so I have no idea what's happening in that thread.. I'm here because the thread title was about unicast. I never said anything about AVP to reverse my stance and if anything I did say muddies that for anyone.. then I have to wonder why my opinion is carrying so much weight. I'm not a conformist by nature so if my opinion seems provocative I can only offer that it's not based on herd mentality.
As to the other thing about me assuming I'm vindicated because of whatever.. How is that any different from someone assuming that flaming me for 3 pages is vindicated since everyone else is doing it or because the mods allow it since I'm not particularly liked by them. That's a pretty high horse you're on.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos:
Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
So flame baiting is the solution? Your own "internet wimp whose big brother just came over" solution? Prodos already knows what lots of folks think about their horrible attitude and inability to keep their word. It shows up in every Prodos related thread and likely affects their bottom line since they tried so hard to hide their involvement in their latest venture. But I guess it's harder to look at the big picture when you're carrying all that water for them...
I sincerely am not. Everyone had issues but cleared out as soon as there was a legitimate opportunity to have those issues addressed. To me that was astounding and genuinely baffling. The only thing I am curious about that hadn't been asked at the time was their actual location.. I'm about to go back over their posts and see if they addressed it but if they didn't to me that's a huge red flag. All their other red flags are already flying... so me not repeating what those are saying doesn't mean that I support them. It means I don't like repetition. They have a lot to answer for but.. they're seemingly answering for it. So let's get back to them answering it and if you have questions for them instead of pointed comments towards me then now is your chance.
How about you follow your own words and concentrate on the specific topic, stop flaming, baiting and cease to be so damn repetitive with the constant complaining.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
My guess would be that they haven't gotten around to reading the posts by Prodos since it was still in the very early AM time. I tend not to check gaming threads until I've woken up and have free time in the afternoon to catch up on things, you however seem to spring out of bed bright eyed and fully clad [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]
I think this stuff would be great for Wargames, especially skirmish games, being one piece is great for me as I barely have enough time to play let alone build and paint (infact a lot of my stuff goes to my mate for commission painting). Obviously these wont be very modular (I'm guessing you could cast minis without arms and heads and cast different parts to interchange). What would the price point be for a standard 28mm model?
Will Warzone models continue to be multi part in the future? I hope so, certainly for basic troops. The main reason I haven't started Imperial are the limited Trencher sculpts.
When are the warzone 2.0 rules due for release (roughly) and are they significantly changed?
Will Warzone models continue to be multi part in the future? I hope so, certainly for basic troops. The main reason I haven't started Imperial are the limited Trencher sculpts.
When are the warzone 2.0 rules due for release (roughly) and are they significantly changed?
Hi there, our fans/beta testers, crusaders team is play-testing it, there are some major changes. We will be announcing in bullet points the changes soon.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. Prodos is here guys.. they're answering questions. Where did everyone go? Guys? Guys?
Oh.. I guess it's harder to be a tough guy when the other side isn't on the line :/
Prodos:
Are you guys still located in the UK or is that office just an address to allow you to do Kickstarters?
Ugh. Seriously, what's with the pompous attitude? The way you're crowing anyone would think you'd got a vested interest.
Don't act like you're somehow vindicated when a) the issues clearly remain and b) people have already posted since Prodos started participating raising those issues.
A vested interest?
No, I don't think so.
What I do think is not complimentary though.
He leaves out the fact that they admit to having problems in the past.
Which is sad, because that was actually the most important, and potentially the most productive, part of Prodos' posts.
Admitting problems is a necessary first step if those problems are to be rectified.
Prodos has gotten beyond denying that the problems exist, so they can start to work on their damaged reputation.
Now, if their white knights could do the same....
Sadly, a lot of Prodos' own products are in that weird position of being technically excellent, but not interesting me much. (That is a taste issue - not something that is their fault, or a problem, really.)
overtyrant wrote: I think this stuff would be great for Wargames, especially skirmish games, being one piece is great for me as I barely have enough time to play let alone build and paint (infact a lot of my stuff goes to my mate for commission painting). Obviously these wont be very modular (I'm guessing you could cast minis without arms and heads and cast different parts to interchange). What would the price point be for a standard 28mm model?
wargaming, skirmish game we could have it at 15 USD a set 5-7 miniatures.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xargax wrote: few shots allows each mold of unicast ? price cost 1kg of unicast material ?
Each mould is approx, 6 x 32mm miniatures, at 350+ shots per mould, mould can be replaced within 72h, we charge per miniature not per Kg and material itself is not for sale. thanks.
Joyboozer wrote: As Mlaw made such a big deal about it perhaps you could answer his question?
Or mine?
Thanks actually.. my question was if you guys are actually located in the UK or of that's just for Kickstarter or .. where are you guys actually located?
(Joyboozer you might want to restate yours as well since there was a lot of.. discussion.. since then)
Joyboozer wrote: As Mlaw made such a big deal about it perhaps you could answer his question?
Or mine?
Thanks actually.. my question was if you guys are actually located in the UK or of that's just for Kickstarter or .. where are you guys actually located?
(Joyboozer you might want to restate yours as well since there was a lot of.. discussion.. since then)
For the current KS they are located in Chicago, IL.
PsychoticStorm wrote: That is nice to hear care to answer a few questions about Unicast?
Hit me.
Thank you very much.
Unicast seems cheap and good enouph, in its minimum volume, to me for some personal projects I would like to do so I have a few questions for it.
First and foremost is do you accept work from individuals and not companies?
Then I have a few casting questions.
Can you cast in coloured resin?
If yes, what selection of coulours are available? (no need for exact)
Can this method be used with transparent or tinted transparent resin?
What is the minimum volume a figure must have to be casted?
And a sculpting question
I got from BoW Jezebel article that you do 3D sculpting and printing, if I have files from an artist do you change them to be ready for Unicast? or you submit the corrections to the 3D artist?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for your questions,
1. Minimum volume for Unicast is 250.
2. Yes we provide services for individuals.
3.Yes, Blue, Red, Green,- only dark colours , for instance no Yellow.
4. No to transparent.
5. 250.
6. Yes we can do this, however we would need to charge you work hours, alternatively we can give you guidance what needs to fixed.
What kind of costs are we looking at for a minimum run of 250? In total?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just got my prodos unicast figure, which was Calypso. It's pretty amazing this was done as one piece (or if not, it was glued really really well. Can't see the joints at all)
However, I can see a bit of mold slippage on one part of the Calypso model already and the model is...dusty for some reason? It has grey dust on parts of it. Hopefully that will just wash off.
What kind of costs are we looking at for a minimum run of 250? In total?
Depends on what they answer to my question.
Taking the approximate costs here.
if the minimum volume is 250 models then we look at 462,50 USD, or 1,85 per model not bad that is
If the minimum volume is 250 shots (1500 models) on the other hand it is 1025 USD or 0,68 per model again not that bad.
Remember as the pic above says these are estimations I would expect them a bit higher
My main issue from my perspective as an individual who would like to utilize it for some pet projects is the following at 250 models minimum order (252 really for the 6 models mold) you get 42 x 6 of the same model not that bad there is some excess but it can be handled, if the minimum is 250 shot then you get 250 of the same model that is way too much excess for a pet project.
Thows are REALY good prices. I will point out for most they would be higher counting on how much further work you need done, especially if you are getting them to do the designing/sculpting. But still. At thows prices alot of people will be able to make the wargames of their dreams if they got the cash.
The only downside I realy see is that the mini's must have a base and are mono-pose. This one is abit of a head scratcher to me. Couldn't you just do a "base" that has multiple parts attached. Then the customer just cuts the parts off themselves and assemble? With the detail shown that the material can hold, this dosen't seem like it would be a problem.
I Imagen that the pricing structure shown wouldn't cover this, but it seems fesiable. Unless this is a "don't feed the gremlins after midnight" situation, I don't relay see why not?
10 miniatures of 28, 32 or 35mm scale size per mold for example, or vehicles (land raider/rhino/predator/leman russ from warhammer 40k style) is possible ?
6 per mold for standard human shaped models (depending pose I guess) I can assume a vehicle could be done in parts but would need several molds (again depending size and shape).
PsychoticStorm wrote: 6 per mold for standard human shaped models (depending pose I guess) I can assume a vehicle could be done in parts but would need several molds (again depending size and shape).
I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Prodos doesn't want to do vehicles given the statement that the bases are a required part of the process from their response to NAVARRO. Also, casting multiple parts defeats the advantage of Unicast since it's now Multicast.
Puns aside, it would be interesting to see if they could do, if nothing else, "upgrade" kits for other base vehicles in the material similar to what Dust Studios does with upgrade sprues for WW2 kits.
Perhaps some clarification on the base is needed. Does the model have to have a full sized round base, or does it just need a large tab like metal and resin models already have?
MLaw wrote: Prodos- Can Unicast be done with models that are traditionally sculpted or does it require the base model be 3d for some reason?
They did answer that question. There probably should be a compiled list of questions and answers created and added to the OP.
Q: Can you cast in Unicast only from a 3d file or traditional sculpts can also be used and cast in Unicast? A: Only 3D. Process required models surface in 3d form.
MLaw wrote: Prodos- Can Unicast be done with models that are traditionally sculpted or does it require the base model be 3d for some reason?
They did answer that question. There probably should be a compiled list of questions and answers created and added to the OP.
Q: Can you cast in Unicast only from a 3d file or traditional sculpts can also be used and cast in Unicast? A: Only 3D. Process required models surface in 3d form.
Thanks, it would be really helpful if there were a compilation post for Q&A. That requirement and the integral base thing shifts this into a pretty specific production pipeline.
I've long dreamed of having some over- ridiculous blinged- out anime/ Japanese CCG dragons for small scale gaming for a long time. Literally nobody makes what I want, not even in Japan.
When prodos get's back to answer the questions about if unicast can use a tab as the "base" and if the min order is shots/models. I wounder if we could see what the prices are like to have a project done in resin vs. unicast.
Lockark wrote: When prodos get's back to answer the questions about if unicast can use a tab as the "base" and if the min order is shots/models. I wounder if we could see what the prices are like to have a project done in resin vs. unicast.
Hi there, prices depend on a model's size. Unicast is cheaper to traditional casting if we go above 300 models per type.
As for Capacity, there is production output from last 3 days, approx 6000 models, made at Archon's facility.
Nice, I think I will compile this into a nice FAQ a bit later today, this can be quite fascinating for individuals who want to make a small project for themselves.
Do you have a similar nice chart for your digital sculpting services? and 3D printing that may go quite nice hand in hand with this.
I understand if the variables are too many for this and it is not possible beyond a simple "it is per case" answer.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Nice, I think I will compile this into a nice FAQ a bit later today, this can be quite fascinating for individuals who want to make a small project for themselves.
Do you have a similar nice chart for your digital sculpting services? and 3D printing that may go quite nice hand in hand with this.
I understand if the variables are too many for this and it is not possible beyond a simple "it is per case" answer.
Frankly, we can do all for you, from concept of miniatures to mass production and board game assembly/printing.
However, there are 3 board game soon-to-be-on-Kickstarter we are working on (not ours nor Archon ones) for external customers, so it will take some time to work this through.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: [Frankly, we can do all for you, from concept of miniatures to mass production and board game assembly/printing.
It was my understanding that you couldn't do concept art. Concept art needed to be done before, then you could do 3d printing, 3d sculpting and casting.
Do you also handle concept art or is that still the same?
Lockark wrote: When prodos get's back to answer the questions about if unicast can use a tab as the "base" and if the min order is shots/models. I wounder if we could see what the prices are like to have a project done in resin vs. unicast.
Hi there, prices depend on a model's size. Unicast is cheaper to traditional casting if we go above 300 models per type.
This is very important info for people based on the size of their project. For sure I'm keeping you guys in mind for a dream project I hope to get off the ground.
yeah,
Did they say why not?
They said they had trouble casting the clear predators in the normal molds so they were working on a solution.
I thought this might be it?
Prodos ? How's the clear resin problem coming along??
Can't believe they are working on everyone elses kickstarters while they haven't sorted out their own.
Can't believe they are working on everyone elses kickstarters while they haven't sorted out their own.
Panic...
Well I am assuming (a bad habit I know) that from a manufacturers perspective, it makes little sense to halt everything until X is finished, it is an reasoning we have seen on many kickstarters (usually involving their creative team).
From the information I see around Prodos seems to want to set themselves as a complete package for hire or do parts for hire, not a bad idea so far only china does such work and something in EU will be attractive to many companies and individuals, especially if they do small print runs.
We know for fact that they do concept art, 3D design, 3D printing casting and from a comment above they can also do the boxes and internal components and setting aside the later, we have testimonies from other companies using them for such jobs.
Panic wrote: Can't believe they are working on everyone elses kickstarters while they haven't sorted out their own.
With business clients, you have contracts with stuff like approvals and project goals, penalties for non-delivery at certain deadlines, payment only upon meeting certain requirements, etc. etc.
If you screw up the project, you lose their future business, plus any other clients they would have referred you to.
With backers, you get a big wad of cash and no deadline whatsoever.
If you screw up the project, you go run another KS and generate *another* big wad of cash.
Lurking here for the info about unicast, but since there already was a lot of OT and generally a bright vision of the future, any chance you'll get around to do the Waste Knights miniatures eventually? I am afraid that I'll tire of the game and pass it on before those are delivered, few of my games hit the table a year after acquiring :/
turin wrote: Lurking here for the info about unicast, but since there already was a lot of OT and generally a bright vision of the future, any chance you'll get around to do the Waste Knights miniatures eventually? I am afraid that I'll tire of the game and pass it on before those are delivered, few of my games hit the table a year after acquiring :/
Hi there, I suggest get in touch with Waste Knights owners, as we have manufactured for them all they wanted so far and we have nothing outstanding. Thanks.
They prefer if you join their closed facebook group or email them directly . Please note that these options convienently keep the criticism out of the public eye and out of sight of potential new customers. Whether or not it works more often than the current methods of posting on the AVP kickstarter page, posting on their ongoing crowdfunding project comments, their open Facebook page, or various promo/news articles/threads online (like this one) is something you'll have to report back on.
Prodos, as per it's financial statement is also doing fine, thus is able to fund shipping, gradually.
If you are AVP KS backer, and you have not received anything/awaiting for next wave, I would suggest to email Prodos or join "AvP:THB Backers only" Facebook forum, Prodos team is very active there ,sorting out all customer queries.
Also, please check your data in pledge manager as there is still 241 backers that have missing names and surnames for shipping -if this is the case, I would suggest to update it and bet in touch with Prodos.
If you are not AvP backer, please follow up official updates for more information, any suggestions regarding this topic please send to Prodos email.
Thanks, I hope we can come back to the topic of LOAD.
warboss wrote: They prefer if you join their closed facebook group or email them directly . Please note that these options convienently keep the criticism out of the public eye and out of sight of potential new customers. Whether or not it works more often than the current methods of posting on the AVP kickstarter page, posting on their ongoing crowdfunding project comments, their open Facebook page, or various promo/news articles/threads online (like this one) is something you'll have to report back on.
Prodos, as per it's financial statement is also doing fine, thus is able to fund shipping, gradually.
If you are AVP KS backer, and you have not received anything/awaiting for next wave, I would suggest to email Prodos or join "AvP:THB Backers only" Facebook forum, Prodos team is very active there ,sorting out all customer queries.
Also, please check your data in pledge manager as there is still 241 backers that have missing names and surnames for shipping -if this is the case, I would suggest to update it and bet in touch with Prodos.
If you are not AvP backer, please follow up official updates for more information, any suggestions regarding this topic please send to Prodos email.
Thanks, I hope we can come back to the topic of LOAD.
Pretty scummy.
The white-knighting for these guys seems almost to the point of paid advertisement. Of course their inability to fulfill a Kickstarter is relevant to any other project they do. It shows something of their company morals.
I can understand their reluctance to talk about things in non AVP threads, (or IN AVP threads for that matter), but at this point, it's just something they have to own. Of course it's going to affect sales. It SHOULD affect sales. They DESERVE for it to affect sales, and if they would acknowledge it in the first page or two it comes up, they could steer the conversation back to where they want it. They will never live it down as long as they give any impression of having something to hide.
I will have to redo all the pictures, because they looked fine on the camera until I moved them to the computer. Then they didn't look as good as I thought they did when I opened in Photoshop. I will have to redo my lighting and try a couple different settings on my camera to get better pictures.
The pictures will work for a preliminary review.
The first thing you will notice straight from the start is that you will probably have to clean the miniatures. There is a powdery substance still on the miniatures themselves which is most likely talc or some sort of mold release powder. This is par for most resin miniatures anything so this isn't something new that was unexpected.
I just use warm water, dish soap and a toothbrush. I usually let them soak for about 15-20 minutes in warm water and dish soap. Then I clean them with a toothbrush with a light brushing. Then soak again for another 10 minutes before rinsing. I will rinse by doing a light brushing with just clean warm water and the toothbrush, then let them sit in water. Then I will take them out and let them dry. An alternate method is just a light brushing with warm water and dish soap using the toothbrush. Then I drop them into a sonic jewelry cleaner ($15-30 on amazon) that has clean water. I let that run and then take them out to dry.
You probably do not have to be that thorough, that is just a habit and routine I use for almost all my resin. You could just do warm water, dish soap and light brushing with a toothbrush then rinse and be fine as well. I deal with a lot of garage kits so a more thorough cleaning carried over to my resin miniatures to allow better primer and painting.
This is not the typical resin, it feels more like a plastic when you handle it. It isn't hard or brittle, seems fairly pliable and soft but not too soft (I can't leave lines with my fingernail scraping it). The weight of it was slightly heavier than Prodos's other resin miniatures. The detail is on par with high quality resin miniatures, the quality of the material is really good. You can tell there is more to the mix than just resin, so it does hold up to their claims of HIPS-resin hybrid material. The large pieces like the body, legs, arms are solid pieces that don't give or feel brittle.
Something that most people who have messed with single piece plastic board game pieces know that thin and long weapons can have a bendy issue. Swords, bows, staffs often are bent or have a curve to them instead of being straight. UniCast has that in common with plastic board game pieces, as you can see from the image below, it came out of the box with a slight bend.
Here you can see just how flexible the material was. If it was a traditional resin, unless you had heated it up first in hot water, this would not have been possible because it would have usually snapped and broke. This is me bending it out of the box, without soaking in hot water first.
When I release the piece, it will mostly go back to the original position. Sometimes with plastic miniatures, you can put them in hot water to bend something back and then hit it with cold water to straighten the piece. The majority of plastic pieces however this isn't possible because of how thin they tend to be with long pieces. Since this is a type of resin I was able to hot water, straighten the piece and then hit it with cold water to get it to stick. It is still pliable so if I keep bending it, I could probably get to bend back again. I did not however do this enough times to see how many times I could do it until it would eventually give and break.
For the most part the casting is fairly clean which is on par with high quality resin miniatures. There is very little flash, if any at all. There seems to be remnants of flash around where complex or difficult undercuts were. It isn't a lot and cuts away smoothly with a blade. You can make out possibly one mold line that really easy to clean smoothly with a blade. Unlike board game plastic miniatures, if you don't clean them carefully you can leave artifacts or cause the plastic to have imperfections. Overall it cleans smoother and cleaner than if I was cleaning mold lines from CMoN miniatures as a comparison.
The quality of the detail is on par if not better than CMoN current plastic single piece miniatures. Unlike traditional board game miniatures plastic the details were not soft, even ones that have high quality detail still have a thin/soft detail issue. CMoN haven't gotten much better at giving much more detail and hiding mold lines unlike previous releases. It will only take a couple miniatures of careful cleaning and then these UniCast miniatures will be ready to be primed and painted.
I'm still waiting from them to fully dry from the cleaning. Once that is done, after I redo the pictures I will start primer and paint tests with them.
If you want additional pictures of different parts, the details of the undercuts or other parts of them... just let me know.
I'm eager to hear about how easy they clean up. I'm generally OK with PVC minis detail-wise (I'm not a master painter or anything) but I hate how difficult it is to clean the damn thngs of mold lines. (Super rubbery board game minis like SDE uses are likewise obnoxious).
This whole process is very interesting. I'll have to keep it in mind for future projects (if I ever get around to a boxed game or similar). I reasonably happy with metal for most of what I do, but the advantages of a low-cost resin-plastic hybrid (with that levels of detail ) has some very promising applications.
Looks like your copy had the same issue with those little "handles" on the backpack not making it intact. Looks like they hit a limitation of the process, and probably should have redesigned that piece.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Looks like your copy had the same issue with those little "handles" on the backpack not making it intact. Looks like they hit a limitation of the process, and probably should have redesigned that piece.
I'll have to look more closely when I get home. I never noticed they were supposed to be handles. Once I finish going through my other models to make sure that is the only issue, I'll contact them about a replacement. Thank you for pointing it out, I probably wouldn't have noticed it until I started painting or thought that piece was flash and they were supposed to be rivets of some sort.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Looks like your copy had the same issue with those little "handles" on the backpack not making it intact. Looks like they hit a limitation of the process, and probably should have redesigned that piece.
I'll have to look more closely when I get home. I never noticed they were supposed to be handles. Once I finish going through my other models to make sure that is the only issue, I'll contact them about a replacement. Thank you for pointing it out, I probably wouldn't have noticed it until I started painting or thought that piece was flash and they were supposed to be rivets of some sort.
I have the same model and I do think they're rivets. Does anyone have a 360 degree view of the studio painted one so we can compare?
Sining wrote: Hmm, weird cause mine has the same issue. As does Jakes from the pics I've seen on his blog. And Dark Severances.
I could see those easily getting removed from the final product. The renders they have in their sketchfab profile aren't the final versions of the sculpt - note the missing text-belt-thing on the render.
The handle aren't really an important aspect of the model, and yes could have ended up as something that didn't cast well consistently. Not really something that really is a major defect in the process.
Sining wrote: Hmm, weird cause mine has the same issue. As does Jakes from the pics I've seen on his blog. And Dark Severances.
I could see those easily getting removed from the final product. The renders they have in their sketchfab profile aren't the final versions of the sculpt - note the missing text-belt-thing on the render.
The handle aren't really an important aspect of the model, and yes could have ended up as something that didn't cast well consistently. Not really something that really is a major defect in the process.
It is an indicator of a defect in the process, not necessarily the molding/casting but the whole process. Once they realized 'Hey, these handles are not gonna work' then the render/file used to create the mold should have been adjusted to leave it out rather than miscast each time. 'Hey, when miscast sometimes they come out looking like rivets" doesn't work when there are no similar rivets on the figure (there are some recessed but none I see stuck on top of surfaces). Someone from Prodos should have caught that and adjusted rather than allow miscasts to be sent to customers. So it looks like a defect in the overarching process to me.
I would say it showcases the limits of the technology if any, these models are the first production models and many things will become apparent on what design limits there are and what can be done with alterations.
For example the handles seem to need a bit of thickening to withstand demoulding..
like that, you need to be very specific. If you are talking about Titanforge, I find that hilarious since they have delivered.. as far as I know 100%. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]
, Dust and their distributor who's name eludes me currently), so we have no real knowledge if your assertion is accurate about how great they are.
