In the GW-Webstores the regulary Chaos Space Marines Sets are since some time "sold out" (permanently no longer available). A repack with 32mm Bases is not the reason, this happened allready. My GW Store got yesterday (May 17th) the information that he should send back all Codex CSM and the "Daemonkin Warband" Set he have in the Store.
Maybe a small update with the second Warzone Fenris Book, like other Factions in the last few suppliments?
Commentary on Faeit 212:
GW store managers have been asked to return CSM Codexes/ices to GWHQ, too...
MajorWesJonson on Warseer:
Sad Panda mentioned that they have not been doing proper codices for 7th anymore as it is a lame duck ruleset, and summer 2017 could fit as a proper new codex after an 8th edition rule book release. Until then, we could maybe see a Fenris part 2 with formations and some new kits, but nothing actually being redone for chaos...
I've seen a posting on facebook early this morning that somebodys local store (not a GW from what I can tell) being told by their GW rep that they could (not have to) return their CSM stuff which might fit in with this
(or it could be a basic repack on the 32mm bases, but do non GWs normally get to swap out their old inventory?)
Edit: I can't find this morning reference, but I did find another
Adeptus Astartes
21 hrs · ..
Interesting but I'll wait and see with how they've been with CSM
via Mikhael on Faeit 212 as a store owner I can confirm, there will something happening with the CSMs I got the information that I can them send back all CSM Articles in the Store, if I want.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I've seen a posting on facebook early this morning that somebodys local store (not a GW from what I can tell) being told by their GW rep that they could (not have to) return their CSM stuff which might fit in with this
(or it could be a basic repack on the 32mm bases, but do non GWs normally get to swap out their old inventory?)
The main CSM box got repacked with Khorne Daemonkin.
The Possessed, who have been sold out for a few months, never got updated.
Just spoke to a GW rep. Products have been moved from the trade range, meaning if a store wants them, they have to order them directly from the website. This is usually done before a repackaging or a new release, he says.
He went on to say there is no official policy to return the CSM kits atm. His words, not mine.
Stores saying they have been told such are likely not being truthful, or have worked out some deal with their reps.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Send back ALL their Chaos Marine stuff??? Maybe they're just squatting Chaos Marines.
Nah.
Likely they had to do inventory at GW shops and stuff that should have gone back awhile ago(like hardback codices when the paperbacks came out) got called in.
Neronoxx wrote: Just spoke to a GW rep. Products have been moved from the trade range, meaning if a store wants them, they have to order them directly from the website. This is usually done before a repackaging or a new release, he says.
He went on to say there is no official policy to return the CSM kits atm. His words, not mine.
Stores saying they have been told such are likely not being truthful, or have worked out some deal with their reps.
that makes a lot of sense (especially if the rep concerned might be eligible for a bonus for shifting a ton of silver tower? letting them do so would give stores spare cash to spend on it and a less scrupulous rep might imply the store would be smart to do so)
I would literally laugh so hard if they squatted Chaos Marines. Even funnier since I imagine them recalling the range and then just burying it in a desert somewhere.
It won't happen, but if it does I'll be literally rolling on the floor and laughing.
Man, if they refreshed the whole Chaos line and gave them a good set of rules, I would actually consider buying them as my third army. Then I remember that I already have two Space Marine armies, so then I don't really want to.
RazorEdge wrote: The CSM Sets were allready secretly repacked with 32mm. See first post.
When GW repack their Sets, they usual take the Article out of the shop.
Actually, they don't.
They get told to either:
A) Return the items.
or
B) Sell through the items.
The CSM sets weren't "secretly" repackaged, they made it clear with Khorne Daemonkin that they were repacking. They actually sent their shops 32mm bases to give customers who bought the 25mm versions recently.
If new sculpts are indeed coming, (and seriously, its about Don't bypass the Language filter like this. reds8n time, considering that almost the entire CSM range is from 3rd edition!!), then we damn well better be getting some new options as well...
One of the biggest things holding Chaos back is that we haven't had a single new piece of wargear since day 1 of 3rd edition... While Loyalists, between their 4+ special snowflake books get;
- 4 pistols
- 4 special weapons
- 7!! heavy weapons
Chaos Marines are still stuck with just;
- Plasma pistol
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun
- Heavy bolter, Autocannon, Missile launcher, Lascannon
It's time we get some new toys, and new model kits are the only way to make this happen. If GW though decides to keep ignoring the very real arms race problem that's left CSM's firmly in the dust?
Well, new models will hopefully look sweet, but the army will still just be an unplayable shelf decoration.
The problem is that Space Marines seem to have a dedicated product development team to ensure something new and marine is always coming out; its a level of attention otherwise reserved to the whole of AoS or the rest of 40k combined. In the manufacturing world, we'd call the central person in driving development a Product Manager and its clear from the way GW releases products Space Marines has someone dedicated while the rest are at best sharing. In the past that role was clearly taken by whoever wrote the codex, but overtime its become a model first approach which is why models have become fictionally less cohesive and the rule books other than Space Marines seem to lack attention.
When it comes to Chaos not having new weapons, I'm fine with that but they should get something to balance that reality; for instance you'd think there would be more unsanctioned modifications to wargear, alien, daemon, or otherwise.
While I would like to remain hopeful, I am beginning to think CSM will never get a proper update. Seeing as they're referred to as the biggest threat to the Imperium, you would hope they're rules would reflect that.
Nocturnus wrote: While I would like to remain hopeful, I am beginning to think CSM will never get a proper update. Seeing as they're referred to as the biggest threat to the Imperium, you would hope they're rules would reflect that.
GW made us really threatening once before, and Loyalist players ended up whining & QQ'ing when we actually won something.
Ever since that one summer campaign, GW has made sure that Chaos stays firmly under the booted heel of our Imperial betters, since Loyalists don't like to lose.
Nocturnus wrote: While I would like to remain hopeful, I am beginning to think CSM will never get a proper update. Seeing as they're referred to as the biggest threat to the Imperium, you would hope they're rules would reflect that.
GW made us really threatening once before, and Loyalist players ended up whining & QQ'ing when we actually won something.
Ever since that one summer campaign, GW has made sure that Chaos stays firmly under the booted heel of our Imperial betters, since Loyalists don't like to lose.
Considering the amount of complaining I've seen coming from Chaos players since before that campaign, I think it's less GW and Loyalists and more a case of Chaos players projecting their own insecurities regarding losing and blaming everything on everyone else.
...Which actually fits the lore pretty well, all things considered.
Nocturnus wrote: While I would like to remain hopeful, I am beginning to think CSM will never get a proper update. Seeing as they're referred to as the biggest threat to the Imperium, you would hope they're rules would reflect that.
GW made us really threatening once before, and Loyalist players ended up whining & QQ'ing when we actually won something.
Ever since that one summer campaign, GW has made sure that Chaos stays firmly under the booted heel of our Imperial betters, since Loyalists don't like to lose.
Please, its been about nine or ten years of moaning from chaos players. Time to give that particular record a change.
After a longer Phone Talk with the Manager from a near GW Store (we are good Freinds) I got the Information that he should send back the following Articles to the HQ:
-Codex Chaos Space Marines
-Crimson Slaughter - A Dark Vengeance Expansion Set
-Dark Angels: A Dark Vengeance Expansion Set
Also he got the Information that he can no longer order the following Sets from the HQ:
-Dark Vengeance Starter Set
-Chaos Space Marines (10 man Squad)
-Chaos Space Marines Attack Sqaud (5 man Squad)
-Chaos Space Marine Biker (Single Model)
-Possessed
After a longer Phone Talk with the Manager from a near GW Store (we are good Freinds) I got the Information that he should send back the following Articles to the HQ:
-Codex Chaos Space Marines
-Crimson Slaughter - A Dark Vengeance Expansion Set
-Dark Angels: A Dark Vengeance Expansion Set
Also he got the Information that he can no longer order the following Sets from the HQ:
-Dark Vengeance Starter Set
-Chaos Space Marines (10 man Squad)
-Chaos Space Marines Attack Sqaud (5 man Squad)
-Chaos Space Marine Biker (Single Model)
-Possessed
When I worked at the local GW store, we stopped getting the Battle for Macragge sets about 6 months prior to the release of the Black Reach set.
All this swirling around is giving me some serious pause to get anything started. I've got a CSM kit in bits, one still on the sprue and a bunch of Calth Marines just waiting to be assembled. Before that happens, I need to know what the hell is going on!
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Please, its been about nine or ten years of moaning from chaos players. Time to give that particular record a change.
Well, nine or ten years of garbage rules will do that. Just because you aren't interested and don't care doesn't mean everyone else has to stop.
After a longer Phone Talk with the Manager from a near GW Store (we are good Freinds) I got the Information that he should send back the following Articles to the HQ:
-Codex Chaos Space Marines
-Crimson Slaughter - A Dark Vengeance Expansion Set
-Dark Angels: A Dark Vengeance Expansion Set
Also he got the Information that he can no longer order the following Sets from the HQ:
-Dark Vengeance Starter Set
-Chaos Space Marines (10 man Squad)
-Chaos Space Marines Attack Sqaud (5 man Squad)
-Chaos Space Marine Biker (Single Model)
-Possessed
Of that list, basically everything hasn't been able to be ordered for almost five months.
Lord Corellia wrote: Well, nine or ten years of garbage rules will do that. Just because you aren't interested and don't care doesn't mean everyone else has to stop.
Buut same old trashy false claim whining gets really old. At least this is chaos thread but certain names infect that same whining with false statements pretty much every 40k thread even when it's not about chaos.
Booooring. It simply makes thread harder to read without offering anything new.
Frankly I'm wondering do those people even write what they write or do they just use macro program to insert automatically standard whines in every thread...Repeatedly.
tneva82 wrote: Buut same old trashy false claim whining gets really old. At least this is chaos thread but certain names infect that same whining with false statements pretty much every 40k thread even when it's not about chaos.
Booooring. It simply makes thread harder to read without offering anything new.
Frankly I'm wondering do those people even write what they write or do they just use macro program to insert automatically standard whines in every thread...Repeatedly.
I do hear you there, but coming into a Chaos thread and telling people to stop bitching about how bad Chaos are is akin to coming into an unrelated thread and doing the bitching in the first place, imo.
For what it's worth, I've been off and on with Chaos since 3.5 when we had the "golden age." I have gotten out of the game entirely a couple times since then and sold off a fair few things from all my armies. I had bought the current CSM Codex but sold it off about 6 months ago. I have only regretted it maybe once since. I still love my models, but I have other priorities right now. Hopefully with some new rules in the not-so-distant future I can take my CSM off the back burner.
The Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements seem like they'd be retro-compatible with a 7th edition update to the codex. The CSM are due for some 7th edition CSM and Possessed models too, because we have the new style in Raptors and Dark Vengeance. A plastic Obliterator/Mutilator set would be neat too.
Nomeny wrote: The Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements seem like they'd be retro-compatible with a 7th edition update to the codex. The CSM are due for some 7th edition CSM and Possessed models too, because we have the new style in Raptors and Dark Vengeance. A plastic Obliterator/Mutilator set would be neat too.
There is a new edition of 40K in the works.
It's also correct that GW doesn't bother re-doing old Codex books, basically since Tau, as they consider 7th a lame duck rule set (there will still be rules for new miniatures, incl. campaigns, Codex Deathwatch, etc..).
Just that the timeline is off and the new edition further away ... at least 2017 ... according to my information (which has been good so far, but a new edition of 40K is the most secretive topic you could find in GW).
Per Sad Panda (the guy who wrote the above quote) there won't be a 7E Chaos Space Marine codex. Which basically means there probably won't be a new Chaos Space Marines codex until middle of next year.
Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Tyranids and Imperial Guard now are the last Armies with a 6th Edition Codex. The Tau Codex wasn't a real new Codex, only a fix of the old with new Unit entries. You could say there is no "new" 7th Edition Tau codex. The remaing four books could still get this treatment too.
Lord Corellia wrote: Well, nine or ten years of garbage rules will do that. Just because you aren't interested and don't care doesn't mean everyone else has to stop.
Buut same old trashy false claim whining gets really old. At least this is chaos thread but certain names infect that same whining with false statements pretty much every 40k thread even when it's not about chaos.
Booooring. It simply makes thread harder to read without offering anything new.
Frankly I'm wondering do those people even write what they write or do they just use macro program to insert automatically standard whines in every thread...Repeatedly.
Except that there does seem to be a special level of knee jerk nerd rage that's always directed at Chaos in general, any time we do get something remotely half decent...
Sure, Eldar/Tau/Gladius/etc... gets complained about, but it's typically to the point of 'don't use Gladius/Wraithknights in friendly games'. On the other hand, you still see people whine that Helldrakes are broke, and Summoning should just be outright banned, because... "reasons".
Or else any time Chaos players wish for a Legion equivalent to say Chapter Tactics, it's automatically Chaos players wanting to be Eldar +10 levels of busted.
Let alone the fact that outside of the fringe armies, Chaos has long been the oldest & gakkiest model range, with half or more of our basic options simply missing entirely.
Heck, freaking Sisters have/had most of their available wargear available! On the other hand, only CSM players still have to spend near to $250 for 4 Autocannon Havocs.
Let alone the fact that outside of the fringe armies, Chaos has long been the oldest & gakkiest model range, with half or more of our basic options simply missing entirely.
Heck, freaking Sisters have/had most of their available wargear available! On the other hand, only CSM players still have to spend near to $250 for 4 Autocannon Havocs.
Forgeworld's got you covered on Autocannon Havocs, and you won't need to spend $250 to get em either.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, it could be a reboxing for a Start Collecting Box maybe?
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they reboxed all of the Dark Vengeance Chaos stuff into a Start Collecting Box. I would actually probably buy that.
I like the design of the current CSM box, but it needs a update like the SM tacticals to add new options and wargear. CSM don't need the new weapons SM got, but they do need acess to new and exotic weapons forged by the dark mechanicus. The dark mechanicus is the Ad-Mec who actully are trying to innovate and create new things, and their using forbidden technologies empowered by the warp. If the designers at GW had any creativity, their is so much you can do with that.
Sadly GW bassicly don't care about infantry kits for the most part, they just want to make the next big tank or monster kit they can sell for $150. Infantry still is the back-bone of the 40k rule set, and desperately needs more love rule and model wise.
I wouldn't go that far. The majority of the kits they have been releasing lately have been infantry kits. Besides the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge, they haven't released much of any big kits for quite some time.
Lockark wrote: I like the design of the current CSM box, but it needs a update like the SM tacticals to add new options and wargear. CSM don't need the new weapons SM got, but they do need acess to new and exotic weapons forged by the dark mechanicus. The dark mechanicus is the Ad-Mec who actully are trying to innovate and create new things, and their using forbidden technologies empowered by the warp. If the designers at GW had any creativity, their is so much you can do with that.
Sadly GW bassicly don't care about infantry kits for the most part, they just want to make the next big tank or monster kit they can sell for $150. Infantry still is the back-bone of the 40k rule set, and desperately needs more love rule and model wise.
Heresy! Tzeentch demands his Heavy flamers & Hand flamers. Burning things (in multi-coloured pyrotechnics) is his favourite hobby after all!
I'd like the pantomime dialed down a little bit, were it to be a completely new kit. Horned Helms? Fine. Horns so long you'd be forever ducking through doors and getting them lodged in the ceiling of your Thunderhawk? Not so much.
Same with the Possessed, more sinister, less cheap Halloween masks.
At one point didn't one of the more reliable rumor mongers say that they'd seen a bunch of CSM plastic kits, i.e. Havocs? I can't remember who it was. I guess we can keep hoping...
As for the "whining" Chaos players do: You try playing your army with the same caliber rules that the current CSM codex has and see how much you complain about it.
Personally, having just started 40k on TT (I've kept up with the Setting since I was a wee-lad) the one disappointment I've had with CSM, as I wanted to play sort of Anti-heroes like Pre-Heresy Nightlords/Sons/Alpharius, is the fact that GW seems to discourage diverging CSM away from their old Heresy days (Save for the Dinobots, which practically speaking replaced the Defiler), and in all honesty, should be super easy to take such steps for CSM. Like what about Legion Tactics? Cult Terminators? OTHER Cult Units (Nurgle-flavoured Centurions?, Sorcerer/Rubric Helbrutes?) New Independent Characters? New Fliers? It doesn't have to be OP just give us something to play with GW.
One page legion rules, an expanded armoury (bring back the Kai gun!). Its easy because they have a reference (3.5).
But my biggest gripe is speed. We have very little way of getting to grips with enemies that have a) gotten faster or b) gotten shootier. With more objective based missions and ObSec being a great bonus our troops suck and getting in to position.
Oh and GW.. when you give Chaos (and Orks for that matter) a "special" rule remember: you usually make it hurt in some way too (daemonic possession) so don't make Chaos pay the same amount another army would pay for such a bonus with no such pain.
dan2026 wrote: I find it so weird how little support CSM get from GW.
Are they not popular or profitable?
Hell, Chaos Daemons get 10x the love.
It's our punishment for the 3.5ed codex, and having the audacity to actually win the Eye of Terror campaign, instead of properly "forging the narrative" and letting Loyalists win like we were apparently supposed to.
GW follows the money. When a kit is unpopular, whether because it's fugly or has bad rules, people don't buy it, and GW sees that it's not something people are interested in buying. Naturally GW is a business, and so they try to sell more of what people buy, using past sales as an indicator of interest.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've said it before, the Forge World Horus Heresy model is the way you do Legions.
General Special Rules
General List
Legion Special Rules #1 (that either add to, replace, or modify the general rules)
Legion Specific Units A through C + 1 Special Character
Legion Special Rules #2 (that either add to, replace, or modify the general rules)
Legion Specific Units A through C + 1 Special Character
And so on.
*sigh* No one is asking for 30k Legion organisations! Chaos players for the most part never have - the Legions themselves from an organisational standpoint are dead and gone.
HOWEVER!
Just because the Legions of old are no more, does not mean that the remnants & warbands have suddenly forgotten their tactics and traditions!!
A warband made up predominantly of Night Lords and/or led by a Night Lords commander, will still fight using similar terror tactics as the original Legion did.
A warband of Iron Warriors are still the undisputed masters of siege warfare.
A warband of Word Bearers, led by their Dark Apostles, are still a bunch of Chaos-worshiping religious zealots.
The Alpha Legion are still just as deceptive and sneaky as they've always been.
The argument that Loyalists love to trot out that, "dur, Legions don't exist anymore hurhurhur..." is plain wrong. CSM's don't suddenly forget their traditional unique skills the second they turn to Chaos.
Claiming that IW's or Night Lords etc... don't fight using their Legion specialisations & tactics anymore is akin to saying that, "well Loyalists are only Chapters now, which aren't Legions, so every Loyalist Marine obviously fights only like Ultrasmurfs now!"
That's just it, they've lost unit cohesion and discipline. They're not going to be doing the same training and whatnot that they did when they were still Loyal. Too easy to be fragged in a live-fire exercise and whatnot.
Although I think that 30k had the good idea of dumping And They Shall Know No Fear. It's an awful rule, especially since it's something like four rules in one:
Being able to destroy a unit in Sweeping Advance is good. I wish there was a good penalty for Fearless too, because Fearless units play a different game than regular units, and that's bad. The Daemonic Instability that it used to be like is a bad idea, but I can't think of a better one at the moment.
Yes, that's why they get scraps and don't get updated, because people don't buy them. It's a bit of a vicious circle. I suppose the trick is to buy the stuff that's new and fancy, like the new Raptor.
The CSM squad box was in the top selling list that they published last Christmas.
So CSM "not selling" when their core kit is still in the top 20, some factions didn't make a showing at all and they're several years out from a very ordinary update is an assumption not supported by available evidence.
I would love a CSM basic marine kit that looks like the new raptors. Kinda bringing the whole CSM range to look like the dark vengeance chosen. Hopefully this has been their plan all along and they are just getting rid of the old kits in the meantime.
*sigh* No one is asking for 30k Legion organisations! Chaos players for the most part never have - the Legions themselves from an organisational standpoint are dead and gone.
HOWEVER!
Just because the Legions of old are no more, does not mean that the remnants & warbands have suddenly forgotten their tactics and traditions!!
A warband made up predominantly of Night Lords and/or led by a Night Lords commander, will still fight using similar terror tactics as the original Legion did.
A warband of Iron Warriors are still the undisputed masters of siege warfare.
A warband of Word Bearers, led by their Dark Apostles, are still a bunch of Chaos-worshiping religious zealots.
The Alpha Legion are still just as deceptive and sneaky as they've always been.
The argument that Loyalists love to trot out that, "dur, Legions don't exist anymore hurhurhur..." is plain wrong. CSM's don't suddenly forget their traditional unique skills the second they turn to Chaos.
Claiming that IW's or Night Lords etc... don't fight using their Legion specialisations & tactics anymore is akin to saying that, "well Loyalists are only Chapters now, which aren't Legions, so every Loyalist Marine obviously fights only like Ultrasmurfs now!"
I think H.B.M.C. is just talking about it from a mechanistic stand point. That they should have rules and the rules should be organized and balanced in a way similar to 30k. Not that they should be 30k rules.
I mostly agree. I think they'd be pretty far removed from their 30k form. For instance the Iron Warriors fought in a high attrition style, by the 40k era even that Chaos Legion is mostly organized into smaller warbands making that style of warfare less sustainable. Without a reliably steady flow of new marines it's hard to imagine any warband would commit their marines that way. So they'd likely use their cultists in that role. Iron Warriors would still favor artillery and havoc squads but wouldn't use the weapons that are too difficult to maintain and keep supplied, so much of the 30k and newer loyalist weaponry they wouldn't necessarily use. It requires us to think about how an attrition minded siege force would adapt to being smaller.
Similarly you could see any number of former legions re-organized around the premise of using cultists as fodder and human shields... Thematically that distinguishes them from loyalists and build legionaries as predominantly elite forces comprised of ancient(-ish) veterans. There are any number of ways that that the Legions' tactics would translate into how they use cultists.
This speaks to what should be an underlying theme to CSM in 40k, "how did each legion adapt to survive?"... In that way the Legion tactics of old are just a starting point.
The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.
Iron Warriors for example should still have a thematic bonus vs. fortifications, and something like Stubborn or Fearless when occupying ruins/fortifications of their own. (army-wide Tank Hunters would probably be completely OP...)
Night Lords likewise, wouldn't be breaking the game if they got army-wide Fear & Hit-and-Run, etc...
As for replacing their losses, they're still Marines at the end of the day. Chaos forces will still reclaim the geneseed of their own fallen, and they'll also steal from defeated Loyalists. By the same token, it's actually easier for Chaos forces to grow new Marines, since they're not held back by the edicts of Imperial law or the rigorous practices & checks of Loyalist Chapters.
Chaos Marines will instead use illegal cloning techniques, and/or combine daemonic sorcery into the mix as well.
Heck, in 'Dead Sky Black Sun', just a single Iron Warriors fortress was pumping out dozens of potential new marines at a time. While the rate of failure was high, Honsu's forces were easily creating new fully fledged Chaos Marines at the same rate that it takes a Loyalist Chapter to create a new recruit.
When you think about it, if Chaos Marines weren't actively creating new Marines at a decent rate, they'd have all but died out within a few centuries!
Experiment 626 wrote: The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.
Only if you can't mix/match like there are rules in place for Chapter Tactics.
Experiment 626 wrote: The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.
Only if you can't mix/match like there are rules in place for Chapter Tactics.
Obviously... just like Loyalists, getting two different sets of Legion rules would require using allied detachments, and similar to Loyalists, throwing an IC w/Legion Trait 'A' into a squad with Legion Trait 'B' would cancel out both sets of rules.
Likewise, hopefully they keep the rules that prevent mixing up different Marks within a single unit...
Throwing an unmarked, (Undecided), character into a marked unit is one thing. Throwing a Slaaneshii or Tzeentchian Sorcerer into a unit of Khornate Termies? Feth that!
Experiment 626 wrote: *sigh* No one is asking for 30k Legion organisations! Chaos players for the most part never have - the Legions themselves from an organisational standpoint are dead and gone.
Settle down Chopper. You'll strain something.
Experiment 626 wrote: HOWEVER!
Just because the Legions of old are no more, does not mean that the remnants & warbands have suddenly forgotten their tactics and traditions!!
You do realise that's exactly the point I was making right? Jesus...
Experiment 626 wrote: A warband made up predominantly of Night Lords and/or led by a Night Lords commander, will still fight using similar terror tactics as the original Legion did.
A warband of Iron Warriors are still the undisputed masters of siege warfare.
A warband of Word Bearers, led by their Dark Apostles, are still a bunch of Chaos-worshiping religious zealots.
The Alpha Legion are still just as deceptive and sneaky as they've always been.
The argument that Loyalists love to trot out that, "dur, Legions don't exist anymore hurhurhur..." is plain wrong. CSM's don't suddenly forget their traditional unique skills the second they turn to Chaos.
Claiming that IW's or Night Lords etc... don't fight using their Legion specialisations & tactics anymore is akin to saying that, "well Loyalists are only Chapters now, which aren't Legions, so every Loyalist Marine obviously fights only like Ultrasmurfs now!"
DarkStarSabre wrote: ...What's saddest is rumours hinting new edition...and CSM being the 'first new book'.
Again.
Because we know how well that worked out the past two times, right?
I can see it now...
- Everything that doesn't have a current, physical model will be removed from the codex... So no more Chosen (as there's no kit), no more upgrades at all for Cultists (DV exclusives), Combi-weapons & Power axes become 'Terminators Only', etc...
- Power creep is suddenly bad, so to re-balance everything, all pts costs go up by at least 25% across the board.
Formations are also suddenly decided to be potentially unbalanced, so CSM's will be the first book to return to using a standard CAD... However, to be fluffy and reflect the fact that Chaos Marines have little in the way of resources, they'll get a special unique CAD which they must always use, that allows for 1HQ, 0 Elites, 4-8 Troops, 1 Fast Attack, 1/2 Heavy Support. (ie: you can take Havocs, but their heavy weapons are all out of ammo!)
- Lord of Skulls becomes the default LoW choice, but taking one restricts the entire army to MoK only.
- The Helldrake now costs 300pts, drops to av10 on all facings, but the Baleflamer becomes ap2.
Loyalists will still cry foul and claim that new CSM's are OP filth, because Baledrakes can now deny saves to Gravcents!
2 weeks after new Chaos Marines release, Vanillas will get a new codex that suddenly features Tactical Squads replacing their bolters for unit-wide Grav guns, Autocannons are added as a new heavy weapon option, and two brand new units - the Holyfriend w/2x Emperos Cannons @S8/ap2/Heavy 8, and the Emprahzord w/12" move + Fleet, IWND/3++ & WS6/S10/A6 + re-rolls to hit every turn in combat, are released! Each will only cost 130pts.
How's that for curse listing?!
@HMBC: I'm sorry, I took your post to be against the idea of Legion Traits. I apologise for misunderstanding.
Experiment 626 wrote: The main issue is that CSM's really do need similar equivalents to Chapter Tactics, not only because it makes sense from a background perspective, but also because paying for basic special rules on generalist MEQ's makes them unplayable in the modern game.
Only if you can't mix/match like there are rules in place for Chapter Tactics.
Even better - from now on all CSM will treat each other as Come the Apocalypse allies because it's always the Apocalypse when CSM show up! This applies to models in the same Legion too so they can't actually join their own squads. As a result they also can't deploy in unit coherency so they spend the first turn trying to get within 2" of each other and then the rest of the game testing for One Eye Open.
DarkStarSabre wrote: ...What's saddest is rumours hinting new edition...and CSM being the 'first new book'.
Again.
Because we know how well that worked out the past two times, right?
I can see it now...
- Everything that doesn't have a current, physical model will be removed from the codex... So no more Chosen (as there's no kit), no more upgrades at all for Cultists (DV exclusives), Combi-weapons & Power axes become 'Terminators Only', etc...
- Power creep is suddenly bad, so to re-balance everything, all pts costs go up by at least 25% across the board.
Formations are also suddenly decided to be potentially unbalanced, so CSM's will be the first book to return to using a standard CAD... However, to be fluffy and reflect the fact that Chaos Marines have little in the way of resources, they'll get a special unique CAD which they must always use, that allows for 1HQ, 0 Elites, 4-8 Troops, 1 Fast Attack, 1/2 Heavy Support. (ie: you can take Havocs, but their heavy weapons are all out of ammo!)
- Lord of Skulls becomes the default LoW choice, but taking one restricts the entire army to MoK only.
- The Helldrake now costs 300pts, drops to av10 on all facings, but the Baleflamer becomes ap2.
Loyalists will still cry foul and claim that new CSM's are OP filth, because Baledrakes can now deny saves to Gravcents!
2 weeks after new Chaos Marines release, Vanillas will get a new codex that suddenly features Tactical Squads replacing their bolters for unit-wide Grav guns, Autocannons are added as a new heavy weapon option, and two brand new units - the Holyfriend w/2x Emperos Cannons @S8/ap2/Heavy 8, and the Emprahzord w/12" move + Fleet, IWND/3++ & WS6/S10/A6 + re-rolls to hit every turn in combat, are released! Each will only cost 130pts.
How's that for curse listing?!
@HMBC: I'm sorry, I took your post to be against the idea of Legion Traits. I apologise for misunderstanding.
The sad thing? I could actually see them doing that with the Lord of Skulls.
Same with the removing options if they lacked a physical model - that's pretty much exactly what happened with Tyranids (ever wonder why Parasite, Doom and Spores disappeared?).
I mean, a lot is hyperbole but I can also see some likely impacts there...
Or there's always the chance things swing to the other extreme, and CMS have tons of St (excused by ancient tech and demon weapons), and everyone playing CSM for years will be accused of jumping on the cheese bandwagon. Yet somehow they'll still be flavorless.
The same reason why GW changed all the names of their paints and also the same reason (well, one of the reasons) why they blew up Warhammer and started giving everything really stupid names:
Chapterhouse and their love of the almighty ™ symbol.
It's one of the reasons I dislike AoS so much; the sheer cynicism of everything in it is just there because you can slap a ™ after it and call it a day. Orcs? No, no. These are Orruks™! Are these Dwarf Slayer? Not at all my friend, these are the Vulkite™ Berzerkers™ of the might Fyreslayers™.
Without derailing this too much but what CHS did was legal and GW changing the names of everything to TM-able phrases doesn't do anything the address the fact that it was a legally recognized fair use of a products name.
That said the way GW's been loving all over loyalist space marines they will probably get Legion rules before we do... Heck loyalists will probably get Chaos-loyalist legion rules before CSM get legion rules.
Something like "chapter" tactics sounds nice, but I doubt it would do much to "fix" the playability in this day and age. Most people would feel their list didnt fit with the "tactic" and get upset.
Neither would a new box of marines stop the whining unless we see a release of a plastic dreadclaw equivalent, an open topped truckk style transport, or something similar to bring up the speed of the general army.
Id love to see Mad Max style cultist transports rather than "chapter tactics" for static cc units.
The way GWs been doing bussiness this last year, I actually think a new chaos update is something to look forward to.
Anyhow, I thought this was the news and rumors forum?
aka_mythos wrote: That said the way GW's been loving all over loyalist space marines they will probably get Legion rules before we do... Heck loyalists will probably get Chaos-loyalist legion rules before CSM get legion rules.
Like Chapter Tactics for Cursed Founding? They could have rules for chapters founded from traitor primarch geneseed. They could even give them their own decurions and psychic powers!
Even though the sets are being removed I doubt we'll get an actual rules overhaul. We might just get some updated kits so we actually have the weapon options and that's about it, mainly because we just got the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplement updates so I don't think they will update the whole codex this soon.
They should get legion specific tactics, but I'd prefer them a tad more toned down than marine ones, and to offset this, each legion also has a specific unit also. No one wants to see the repeat of codex white scars bikers. I don't want to see Night lords models being used with iron warriors rules for example.
Heck, give them a legion specific trait, a legion specific unit and then minimise their other options and give them a disadvantage rule wise. World eaters would be easy, massive assault boosts with increased charge range, some form of uber bezerkers, then to balance, no sorcerers and they always have to move closer to the enemy when within 12 or 18". Yeah, they can probably murder that unit and get the charge off, but your opponent has just forced you to move off the objective.
Also, keep the combo's down as well in a fluffy sense. Yeah you can have a world eaters main cad with a thousand detachment, but it will cost you in other ways.
We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They should get legion specific tactics, but I'd prefer them a tad more toned down than marine ones, and to offset this, each legion also has a specific unit also. No one wants to see the repeat of codex white scars bikers. I don't want to see Night lords models being used with iron warriors rules for example.
I don't know how much more "toned down" you can get than the majority of the Chapter Tactics. White Scars and Iron Hands are the weird ones out, not the rule.
Raven Guard: We get Shrouded on turn one; never mind that their unique Detachment is based upon everything being in Reserves...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.
Or hold all forces to the same standard of "mostly fits the rules" where people who care about fluff will take the initiative and self-police, so chaos players don't have arbitrary restrictions while marines get all the good toys?
Just sayin' there's a counterargument. Personally, I wish the whole game ran on those fluffy late-3.5 custom lists, but, y'know, balanced, so I definitely agree with you in concept, though.
If there are two that are superior to the rest, and they are far superior, they need to be toned down. The reason why the Raven guard one doesn't look good is because the other two are so good, that needs to be corrected in a later codex, and not repeated in the chaos codex, which should have legion traits.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.
Or hold all forces to the same standard of "mostly fits the rules" where people who care about fluff will take the initiative and self-police, so chaos players don't have arbitrary restrictions while marines get all the good toys?
Just sayin' there's a counterargument. Personally, I wish the whole game ran on those fluffy late-3.5 custom lists, but, y'know, balanced, so I definitely agree with you in concept, though.
I'm saying Marines need to be corrected and brought into line. As a chaos player what would you prefer, legion specific traits and then codex chapter traits etc being sorted out, or the other way round? You won't get both at the same time.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: If there are two that are superior to the rest, and they are far superior, they need to be toned down. The reason why the Raven guard one doesn't look good is because the other two are so good, that needs to be corrected in a later codex, and not repeated in the chaos codex, which should have legion traits.
The reason why the Raven Guard one doesn't look good is because it isn't good.
You have three perks for Raven Guard.
1) Shrouded until the start of game turn two(not "until the start of your second turn"; game turn two); provided you did not begin the game in a Transport vehicle, and the ability to add 1 to the result for Night Fighting(so OP!).
2) Re-rolls on Hammer of Wrath for Jump Pack units.
3) Ability to use their Jump Packs in both Movement and Assault phases of the same turn.
The first perk is basically removed from you if you use the majority of infantry heavy lists that Raven Guard would excel at(which also involve transports). Hell, one of the Raven Guard specific formations(The Skyhammer that isn't as good as the Dev/AM one) removes that from you since you have to take 3x Tacticals in Drop Pods.
The second and third perks mandate you dump an extra 15 points per 5 man squad to use them--and the Raven Guard specific formations with Assault/Vanguard units? They mandate you have Jump Packs.
Add in that you cannot use Combat Doctrines(because for whatever reason, only Ultramarines, a Gladius, or Battle Demi-Company get to use them) and it becomes very irksome to play Raven Guard.
White Scars on the other hand can be toned down in one fell swoop by adding "Chapter Tactics: Dark Angels" and "Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves" to the SuperFriends choices, since you cannot mix Chapter Tactics.
I play a scout heavy Raven guard army and I find their chapter tactics works for me. The RG tactics are meant to push you towards a scout and assault marine focused army and as long as you build the rest of the army around this they work just fine. I pretty consistently beat the Ultramarines and Imperial fist armies; tie with biker armies. It's only vehicle spamming lists I struggle with but if FW is allowed in the game I can compensate pretty easily while staying fluffy. It isn't the greatest but still better than CSM.
I have my bias but I think Iron Hands are maybe the only one I think might go too far. It's only when you stack all the interaction of chapter tactics with formations and then allow allies for even more rules interactions that it gets untenable.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: We all know how wrong it is fluff wise that black templars can be accompanied by a librarian conclave, retconned or not, lets not do the same to chaos and then clean up marines next time there is a chance too.
Or hold all forces to the same standard of "mostly fits the rules" where people who care about fluff will take the initiative and self-police, so chaos players don't have arbitrary restrictions while marines get all the good toys?
Just sayin' there's a counterargument. Personally, I wish the whole game ran on those fluffy late-3.5 custom lists, but, y'know, balanced, so I definitely agree with you in concept, though.
There's problem of arms race with that logic. Just because they did it badly before doesn't mean it should be done badly in new stuff. Fix the imbalance by fixing problem. Not escalating it with other armies.
Chapter tactics also have led to silly stuff like white scars being all about bikes when _they are codex chapter with tactical marines that form the real core of white scars_ in reality. White scars is NOT all about bikes in the fluff. They like bikes yes and use them more than most but at the end of the day tactical squads in rhinos still form their core units(and the rhino isn't even particulary white scar thingies. fluffwise marines as a whole tend to be all about speed and shock. Only way their small numbers allow them to feasibly work. Drop pod or bike is their de facto standard. Foot slogging is more unusual).
When was last time you saw white scar army that had more tactical marines in rhinos than bikes?
Warhams-77 wrote: All the CSM plastic kits made it back from the Eye of Terror to the GW webshop
No blue and golden armor... no evil sorcery...
Yet
They've bounced in and out of stock a few times now...
If what some have said is true, that GW has been recalling store stocks of various Chaos stuffs, then it's also quite likely that GW has simply put that limited stock up for sale through the webstore, and it'll be listed back as "sold out" once that remaining stock is gone.
Or else they could simply be doing extremely limited production runs to drip a few sets in and out until they finally get around to overhauling the most dated & useless model line of their main factions. (note: yes, Sisters are a worse model line, but they're not an 'off the shelf' line, nor are they anywhere near as critical to the setting as freaking Chaos is!)
I can't imagine that those molds are in great shape anymore... especially considering how common it's been for the past 4-5 years to routinely see what little details the model do have, being so prone to miscasts.
Warhams-77 wrote: I can't imagine that those molds are in great shape anymore... especially considering how common it's been for the past 4-5 years to routinely see what little details the model do have, being so prone to miscasts.
As of the last few Cadians, I built and painted for a pal, I would guess in the same, sorry state(horrific moulding-lines, occasionally blurred details,...).
They don`t last forever.
Warhams-77 wrote: All the CSM plastic kits made it back from the Eye of Terror to the GW webshop
No blue and golden armor... no evil sorcery...
Yet
They've bounced in and out of stock a few times now...
If what some have said is true, that GW has been recalling store stocks of various Chaos stuffs, then it's also quite likely that GW has simply put that limited stock up for sale through the webstore, and it'll be listed back as "sold out" once that remaining stock is gone.
Or else they could simply be doing extremely limited production runs to drip a few sets in and out until they finally get around to overhauling the most dated & useless model line of their main factions. (note: yes, Sisters are a worse model line, but they're not an 'off the shelf' line, nor are they anywhere near as critical to the setting as freaking Chaos is!)
I can't imagine that those molds are in great shape anymore... especially considering how common it's been for the past 4-5 years to routinely see what little details the model do have, being so prone to miscasts.
I think this is probably the case. Assuming rumors are true I doubt the want to do another production run of old product just to restock their webstore. It's far easier to recall and sell that stock. It also means stores will have that much more room for new stock in the future.
Probably a Tsons/Alpha Legion update as part of Curse of the Wulfen part 2. The hilarity of how awful the Tsons rules are should refuel my disappointment nicely.
Im not bying anything i dont like the look of, so i hope it affects what models they remake.
If they make new chaos stuff i will buy it.
I dont like the looks of:
Csm Oblit variants
Helturkey
Raptor variants
Possessed
Abaddon
Dark apostle
Thousand sons
Slaanesh marines
Khorne berzerkers
Plague marines
Daemon prince
Three of those kits were part of the last update, so no chance of an update (and I get the Heldrake isn't to everyone's taste, and the DA isn't much to get excited over, but the Raptor kit is pretty solid?)
Funny thing about the Raptors/Warp Talons kit is how it became a "standalone" release. I mean it would have made more sense to release it as part as an entire design revamp for the whole army, including kits for regular CSM/Chosen, Bikers, perhaps Terminators, etc. As they stand now they're a pretty cool kit, but they can feel a bit odd when sharing the table with 2nd*, 3rd and 4th edition sculpts.
* technically the Chaos Bikers are from 4th edition, but honestly the kit was only slightly redesigned and the bikes themselves are almost the same. It's similar to what happens with the CSM kit, it was slightly adjusted for 4th edition but at its core it's an early 3rd edition plastic kit. Which is odd because I actually like those models, they even mix well with the plastic & metal models from 2nd ed., although the only thing so far that beats the 2nd ed. metals are the original, rogue trader CSM themselves.
Azreal13 wrote: Three of those kits were part of the last update, so no chance of an update (and I get the Heldrake isn't to everyone's taste, and the DA isn't much to get excited over, but the Raptor kit is pretty solid?)
I agree. They don't look amazing on the website, but if you open the kit up, there are tons of really nice parts in there that you can mix with the CSM & berserker kits to make some really interesting models.
A lot of the kits are a bit rubbish on their own, but there are so many kits that can be used to convert that it really ought not to be a problem. Chaos is for converters, right?
For example, I hate the possessed kit, but I can make possessed from so many different kits - blood reavers, wrathmongers, forsaken, spawn, crypt horrors, blue horrors, zombies, etc etc.
By the way, I am absolutely relishing the prospect of new kits (a converter always wants more bits!), so I'm not saying people shouldn't be excited about this, or even that they shouldn't say the current kits are rubbish, but I think some people would be happier if they used their imagination
I like all the bits in the raptors kit, i used them for lots of stuff.
But their ballerina poses doesnt look too cool to me, and they fall over a lot.
They are also almost same bulkiness as some of the cultists.
I would like to see all marines size increase compared to humans on TT.
Chosen has the right bulkiness and height.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, im concerned, as others said, that chaos will be first off in a new edition.
I think a new assault vehichle should do a lot for chaos.
Also whats up with drawbacks on our rules all the time.
As long as jump troop models are modeled with one foot on the ground there are simply one or two poses that don't look like they're falling over.
Chaos needs a bigger better transport. It's a slow moving assault army that has neither the numbers or survivability to get across the board with enough numbers to actually survive the shooting and overwatch that are stacked against them.
Drawback rules are because GW thinks that armies should pay more for a rule with the potential to perform really well even if it's really a trade-off that has the potential to perform really poorly. The possibility of poor performance should balance the positive possibility... In that way it's a trade off that pays for itself. However GW doesn't just charge us points for these trade off rules, they charge us as if the best thing happens every turn and consistently so, when it's actually rare. CSM and all its overcosted units "almost" make sense when you consider you're really paying for that Greater Daemon from the boon table whether it shows up or not. In any other army if you had a unit always in reserve that never made it out, you'd stop taking it but CSM have its cost and unreliability hardwired.
Mildly off topic, but these last few posts made me relise what can needs. More support units. If we had some sort of flyer or bike with an extended range dirge caster that could speed around denying overwatch it would be a massive moon to this assult based army.
We do infact have that.The fire raptor and storm eagle can both take a dirgecaster as an option. And they can both take the legacy that increases the range to 12". Of course you can only have the legacy once but still.
Roknar wrote: We do infact have that.The fire raptor and storm eagle can both take a dirgecaster as an option. And they can both take the legacy that increases the range to 12". Of course you can only have the legacy once but still.
The problem is that we have that in a £40+ Forge World book and not our main codex.
Literally all the units that fix the gaping holes in the CSM army are FW units. And Imperials get equivalent counterparts.
CSM need a lot doing to them to be honest. We're practically reaching Dark Eldar levels of needing work done.
Our model range is not only amongst the oldest going but it's also the most disjointed. The difference between normal CSM, Dark Vengeance chosen and Raptors is unreal. They seem to be three stages of a design aesthetic which results in a disjointed and ugly appearance that doesn't do anything to help our army as a whole. I know GW love the whole rag tag aesthetic but when one unit looks like Standard SM with sculpted trims (the CSM box), the other looks like ALL DAEMONFLESH ALL THE TIME (Chosen) and the third looks like a fusion of the two...well, how do we work with that?
We also appear to be trapped in this bubble where GW don't know what they want us to be - are we embittered Veterans from the Horus Heresy? Are we Renegade SM? Are we Lost and the Damned? Are we Dark Mechanicus? We need a codex (or several) that give each theme the army it deserves. Heck, they don't even have to do that much work model-wise to do so though it would be nice.
Legions - Elite units and stats, USRs, perhaps force structure similar to 30k.
Renegades - Mediocre units as we have now, access to newer 'Imperial' equipment and vehicles.
Lost and the Damned - Cultist hordes, Beastmen, Spawn, Traitor Guard units.
Dark Mechanicus - Dinobots, Daemon Engines, Mechanicus units, robots.
Our codex has, as has been stressed many times elsewhere - a 5th edition design philosophy (Pay for EVERYTHING) shoved into a 6th edition book trying to survive in 7th edition. As a result our units are overpointed, understatted and we have to pay for just about everything in order to be on par with other units from other books. I cannot for the life of me grasp why VotLW is a paid for upgrade. In an era where ATSKNF existed and the Dark Angel book (as terrible as it was) that came out afterwards game them FREE hatred, stubborn and weapon upgrades vs CSM....why are we paying for +1 Ld and Hatred? Surely, at the very, very least VotLW should have been our free armywide rule?
Champion of Chaos is a horrible rule. Unlike every other army in the game, where you are encouraged to upgrade the sergeant/leader to deal with threats the unit otherwise would struggle with we ourselves are discouraged from doing so. This is a thing I do not like. My Plague Marine champions have Power Fists to deal with vehicles and armour that the unit may otherwise struggle with. They never get to do that because the first combat of anything they HAVE to call out a challenge and subsequently get blatted by the accompanying IC or character monster with little or no effort. It's to the stage where I don't even consider a humble power weapon anymore - Khornate players? My heart bleeds for you. In 5th edition or before you may have had an aesthetic that was fluffy and great - power axes for all! But 6th came along, made them I1 in assault and now your combat monster champion is basically a waste of time. You got penalised for an aesthetic decision. And that is terrible.
I feel the 6th ed Power Weapon tweaks were...an indirect nerf to Chaos compared to Imperials. Especially when you consider CSM power weapons tend to be axes or maces where almost every single imperial Power Weapon is a sword.
And sorry folks, +2 Strength and AP 4 OR +1 Strength and AP 2 (but striking at I1) does not compare to AP 3 at initiative in a fight between models with a 3+ save.
The Chaos Boon table is equally as bad for us. Random Rewards (which also include punishments might I add) are not fun. They are not thematic. My Lightning Claw champion does not need +1 BS. I do not need +1 Initiative on a Power Fist. I do not need shred on a Lightning Claw. I do not need Stubborn on a Plague Marine. I also do not need to randomly lose my Lord because I don't have a stockpile of daemon princes or Chaos Spawn.
With the caveat that including the FW books and units still only make CSM competitive in a casual setting. But it is a much more enjoyable casual setting. Like a tiki bar as opposed to the back of a bookstore.
With the caveat that including the FW books and units still only make CSM competitive in a casual setting. But it is a much more enjoyable casual setting. Like a tiki bar as opposed to the back of a bookstore.
To be perfectly fair...my problem with the FW units? Imperials get a counterpart for EVERY. SINGLE. UNIT apart from the god awful mega-spawns and the Greater Daemons who have such a bizarre restriction on top of being LoWs that you will never see them used outside of an Apocalypse game. I mean, seriously. In order to field the cheapest one (Slaanesh) you need to be playing a 2700 point game.
Might I add that no such restriction exists for, say, a Reaver Titan. Or any other Titan or GC in the game.
With CSM it takes something that is bad and makes it 'decent'.
With SM it takes something that is already good and makes it even better.
Really, I would rather see our core Codex finally sorted out and made viable rather than our reliance on an outside source even more reinforced.
I've given up waiting, I'm just using the FW Legion list and converting models to look appropriately Chaosy.
I'm excited to play it, if I ever get any infantry painted up..
But then, I'm not a tourney player, and my opponents are open minded and understanding in the majority, I pity anyone in a "Codex or nothing" environment.
FW is merely a band aid on the gaping wound left by GW on CSM. While FW helps, it doesn't resolve the underlying fundamental flaws with how GW has approached CSM.
There isn't much of a viable play style; usually someone chimes in and in hand-wavy fashion says "Chaos is chaos, it can't be nailed down"... but that isn't true. Chaos is first and foremost an assault heavy army that is generally composed of elite elements leading fodder. That playstyle is pretty much central to a majority of CSM subfactions and writing a codex around that premise by presenting better synergy goes a long way towards better representing CSM.
DarkStarSabre wrote:Khornate players? My heart bleeds for you. In 5th edition or before you may have had an aesthetic that was fluffy and great - power axes for all! But 6th came along, made them I1 in assault and now your combat monster champion is basically a waste of time. You got penalised for an aesthetic decision. And that is terrible.
I feel the 6th ed Power Weapon tweaks were...an indirect nerf to Chaos compared to Imperials. Especially when you consider CSM power weapons tend to be axes or maces where almost every single imperial Power Weapon is a sword.
And sorry folks, +2 Strength and AP 4 OR +1 Strength and AP 2 (but striking at I1) does not compare to AP 3 at initiative in a fight between models with a 3+ save.
I agree that was a crazy rule. When I carefully read that section of the rules (after about 4 games of 7th edition), my eyes were out on stalks. Some of my characters had axes and some had swords. Some had maces and staffs and some had whips, but if it was painted glowing blue, it was a power weapon. Now, all of a sudden they had different rules? That really screwed with my my battle plans, not to mention it was extra information to remember. I just crossed that bit out and house-ruled it so that all power weapons are Str: User and AP:2. Sorted!
The best is screw the rule of "what you see is what it is" so your paladin with a plasma pistol and a maze could be a paladin with a sword and a bolter gun.
Is the best for our sanity and for model sake.
In any case about new chaos stuff... Well, is obvious that gw hate chaos (and Orks). They doesn't stop release new marine stuff (and Tau), most of them very good or even op as hell.
And when they released the chaos renditions of black legion and crimsom they gave us that ****** of books Hahaha
See those books at same time they release the new marine one with new powers and stuff. ........... Well, that hurts and makes one to think if they are laughing of chaos players
Yes! I think KDK, even though its execution was only ok, was a good idea. Where that book failed was that it was the opportunity to give us Khornate marine units more elite than Berzerkers.
The idea of god specific books would integrate well into GW's current game ethos. As an individual book each god could get more detailed, without over crowding the CSM book with what should be mutually exclusive units. A god specific book fictionally fits and brings in the mutual exclusivity of gods in by formatting them as allies
The very last thing you want is multiple books carrying g unit entries. Look at what happened to the Harlequins, they were stuck with the same garbage rules for years because the two books they existed in didn't want to invalidate them. They have their own book no, so there is no need for that level of neglect.
When they created kdk it showed they were not going to fix chaos marines in regards to points or stats. Anything they do now will piss people off. Don't change them, all of chaos rages. Change them in any way, all of the khorne players rage. Since khorne players are (apparently, for some reason) the largest group of chaos players one would assume he wouldn't want to make them mad.
Now, they have no choice. All they needed to do was give the new thirsters a downloadable dataset from the website. Kdk wasn't needed, it will be the cause of significant frustration in the years to come.
Don't ask them to make the same mistake...
Renegades, chaos marines, dark mechanicum, done. Include long war veterans for renegades to show legions who went unaffiliated with the gods and allow non legion guys in chaos marines to show later traitors who fell for the chaos gods. Suddenly each book can be different enough to be warranted while keeping to a thematic concept.
Is the problem, we still lack of several miniatures to represent some of our options on the codex
(EDIT: sorry for the size, didnt spected so big T_T)
Is is a bit shame I need conversion my CG on bike (or daemon mount) because the miniature doesnt exist. Usually conversions are for fun or pleasure for make something different or cool...not because you MUST do it if you want use the unit
I worry about our options that don't have models. GW current thing is to get rid of such options. That is one reason why I think the opportunity of going into detail with a god cult through a KDK type approach is beneficial. As it is GW is unlikely to make a model for a particular god specific lord option or unit unless a new CSM codex were going to disproportionately represent a particular god at the expense of other. As it is we're lucky if a kit has a single head and shoulder pad to denote the chaos god of their devotion.
If GW ever did a proper Chaos Renegade book, I think it'd be great if it were a supplement to Codex: Space Marines... where by its designed to coax loyalist players to add a few chaos units to their armies little by little... representative of Chaos' insidious corruption.
aka_mythos wrote: I worry about our options that don't have models. GW current thing is to get rid of such options. That is one reason why I think the opportunity of going into detail with a god cult through a KDK type approach is beneficial. As it is GW is unlikely to make a model for a particular god specific lord option or unit unless a new CSM codex were going to disproportionately represent a particular god at the expense of other. As it is we're lucky if a kit has a single head and shoulder pad to denote the chaos god of their devotion.
If GW ever did a proper Chaos Renegade book, I think it'd be great if it were a supplement to Codex: Space Marines... where by its designed to coax loyalist players to add a few chaos units to their armies little by little... representative of Chaos' insidious corruption.
Yeah. That would be the best solution. Legions to Legions, Renegades to Renegades. Too sad, thats probably not gonna happen.
I think it's an approach to Renegades that FW would be more likely take while GW proper would never even think of the idea. It'd work well into some campaign rules.
I think the challenge of having both Renegades and former Legionaries in the same book is how different the narratives behind who they are and their type of forces. The Legionaries are anachronisms to a long ago time, warped and twisted by their dark alliances, Renegades however should be defined more greatly by the form and extent of the corruption that drove them to go renegade. For example imagine the difference between a Chapter that went renegade because their Librarians were driven mad by the whispering a of Tzneetch as opposed to a Chapter whose ritual blood sacrifices drew the wrong sort of attention... Or where the Apothecaries experiments to cure a gene mutation were really accentuate it.
