So take a unit nobody ever takes or people always overlook, and make it useful by doing a small change or buff that makes the unit worth considering without making it op.
Example: Give kroot two attacks again.
Now your turn.
(Please avoid changing point values. That's no fun.)
Always though that 3+ is too much, and a 4+ would be enough, but they really Need to be buffed to T5 again, even if they are only 2Wounds like back then, having giant models be only T4 is just plain dumb.
As for a unit.., Mutilators, be more like Lone Wolves in SW codex, WS5 Str5 3 Wounds, 2+/5++, fleet, FnP, HoW, Rampage, when fighting in a Duel or Vs a MC/FMC, gains +1A, Init and prefered ennemy.
I prefer them with 3+ armor, but then again I'm an old scrat who still remember the days of 3.5, where bloodletters had armor, power weapons, and charge out of deepstrike
Give Sister Repentia's an always 5+ feel no pain( or even 6+), and keep their 3+ for one turn (at T3 they die to most things even with it, but oh well)
Give Blood Angels Jump Infantry the ability to Jink and have a Jink Save if they used their Jump Packs in their previous movement phase (Including arriving from deep strike with their jump packs). This, of course, means they fire snap shots in the ensuing turns shooting phase.
It lets them better represent on the tabletop being true masters of areal combat that they are known to be, while not stealing the thunder of Raven Guard (being able to use their jump packs in both the movement & assault phases) and allows them to better close distance/survive the advance on a foe to charge in without being completely over the top.
If Tyranid Warriors got Eternal Warrior. Hell, if all of Synapse granted Eternal Warrior again, that would be a massive buff in power and army styles again, but if just Warriors got it, that would be very potent. T4 3W but no doubling them out puts a lot of survivability on one platform, for cheaper than a Terminator too. Might end up being too good.
Warp Talons - 3++ invulnerable (and maybe FNP/no scatter on striking) until the next movement phase after arriving from deep strike. Call it "warp shrouding" or some such.
I'd go as far as to say an across the board buff to the invul saves of the Harlequin codex since otherwise it's a really squishy army with way too many gaps in its capabilities to operate as a solo force. Besides, I always kind of imagined the Harlequins from their descriptions being able to dodge Bolter fire like the Agents from the Matrix:
This is actually hilarious and incredibly fitting. If the stormboyz don't know where they're going, how the hell would the enemy?
For mine, I would give Banshees furious charge. Might encourage people to use them if the fraction of the squad that makes it in to combat can kill something.
That would basically make them twice as good as regular lasguns. Considering that Tempestus Scions are twice as expensive as a regular guardsmen, without access to First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, then i honestly don't think it would make them overpowered.
Give Sanguinary Guard an Iron Halo (4++)
Give Vindicators side armour 12 (the model actually has extra side armour)
Bloodcrushers Need their 3+ back
Let Leman Russ tanks fire other guns with ordinance
Make Renegade Ogryn default starting unit size 3, but don't change the point cost.
Here is why:
Chaos spawn are 3 for 55pt.
Renegade ogryns are 1 for 60pt
very similar statline, random attacks, S and T, no armor and all. Ogryns are not beasts, can't take transports and are outshined by spawn in every way. They can take a "powerfist" but it isn't D6 attacks, its 1 attack at WS1. oh boy. So if, like spawn, we got 3 as starter, and the additional model cost was changed, the slow unarmored unit might be a fluffy choice for a few people, and FW might sell some of the coolest sculpts out there.
Remove Ordnance from monolith and defiler main gun.
Give Eldar Shining Spears Hit & Run
Give Dark Eldar HQ's the option for Jetbikes again. There is an Archon in the codex fluff that used to be a Reaver. Why did he lose his bike once he became an Archon?
Also give the grenade launcher back so that the DEHQs can join bodyguard and give them assault grenades
Give Slaanesh Fiends either Str5 or more attacks. They went from 5 str5 attacks to 3 str4 attacks AND a 5pts increase. More attacks is always good, but Str5 would further separate them from Seekers, allowing them to fill a different role in an all Slaanesh army.
Give sniper rifles pinning. Give dreadnoughts a 3+ or a 5++ save. Something to help them out a little bit to make them more rugged. The walker/vehicle rules need a total re-write, but this should help them as a patch-job within the scope of this thread. Make LR’s (all flavors) Superheavy tanks. I’m not 100% happy with all the changes that the upgrade entails, but it’s a one shot fix that cures many of their ails.
I like the 12 side armor idea for vindis (add preds to that) and the torrent for LRRs.
gwarsh41 wrote: Make Renegade Ogryn default starting unit size 3, but don't change the point cost.
Here is why:
Chaos spawn are 3 for 55pt.
Renegade ogryns are 1 for 60pt
very similar statline, random attacks, S and T, no armor and all. Ogryns are not beasts, can't take transports and are outshined by spawn in every way. They can take a "powerfist" but it isn't D6 attacks, its 1 attack at WS1. oh boy. So if, like spawn, we got 3 as starter, and the additional model cost was changed, the slow unarmored unit might be a fluffy choice for a few people, and FW might sell some of the coolest sculpts out there.
Remove Ordnance from monolith and defiler main gun.
Make the gorkanaught/orkanaught a SH
Chaos Spawn are 30 points each, not including marks, unless I'm playing it wrong?
gwarsh41 wrote: Make Renegade Ogryn default starting unit size 3, but don't change the point cost.
Here is why:
Chaos spawn are 3 for 55pt.
Renegade ogryns are 1 for 60pt
very similar statline, random attacks, S and T, no armor and all. Ogryns are not beasts, can't take transports and are outshined by spawn in every way. They can take a "powerfist" but it isn't D6 attacks, its 1 attack at WS1. oh boy. So if, like spawn, we got 3 as starter, and the additional model cost was changed, the slow unarmored unit might be a fluffy choice for a few people, and FW might sell some of the coolest sculpts out there.
Remove Ordnance from monolith and defiler main gun.
Make the gorkanaught/orkanaught a SH
Chaos Spawn are 30 points each, not including marks, unless I'm playing it wrong?
IA: Vraks spawn a unit of 3 for 55 pts, must be unmarked. They are 30 each in CSM codex.
Give warp talons charge out of deep strike and allow a second charge if they wipe out a unit.
One of my biggest problems with the change to 3rd edition was this.
Hey, we are a dying race. Let’s give our fragile militia soldiers basic guns that require them to be at point blank range to use. I’m sure this won’t effect the body count of our battle at all!
(ShurCats used to be the same stats as bolters, but with an extra -1 to armor saves and a sustained fire die)
This is a problem with termies. They need to have the price lowered, and they'd be fine, which is ironic since is is what I said to avoid in the rules. That being said, I'd much rather they be cheaper or gain some other form of survivability aside from. Rerolling 2 up is a horrible mechanic, and should never exist. All the things that invalidate terminators and make them weak still ruin them with a double 2 up, but things that take 6 shots to kill now take 36. You went from "too squishy" to "taking 180 shots to kill a 5 man" add in a FNP and you've something that isn't fun. At all.
I feel like making them cost less would be adequate.
More defense just makes the game worse. They need more offense. The terminators embody the failure of the bolter series of weapons. They are all garbage, which is in direct contradiction of the precious fluff.
Vindicators definitely should have at least AV 12 if not AV 13 on the sides. Their armor is very clearly supposed to be more robust on their sides than other Rhino-pattern tanks have.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Vindicators definitely should have at least AV 12 if not AV 13 on the sides. Their armor is very clearly supposed to be more robust on their sides than other Rhino-pattern tanks have.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Vindicators definitely should have at least AV 12 if not AV 13 on the sides. Their armor is very clearly supposed to be more robust on their sides than other Rhino-pattern tanks have.
What, you don't like the paper sides?
The fact that the stalker/hunter has AV12 sides is frankly an insult to the SM main tanks. It’s one of the problems with marines: inertia and the fact the same thing is copied in 4+ different books. Makes it hard to make changes to anything.
But the new shiny things don’t share that problem.
Eldar Wraith Lords now have "WraithStrider: a model with this rule adds +3" when if moves in the movement phase, or charges in the assault phase". Because it makes no sense for a model whose legs are twice the height of a Space marine to move as slow as infantry. Eldar don't build slow lumbering machines.
Galef wrote: Eldar Wraith Lords now have "WraithStrider: a model with this rule adds +3" when if moves in the movement phase, or charges in the assault phase". Because it makes no sense for a model whose legs are twice the height of a Space marine to move as slow as infantry. Eldar don't build slow lumbering machines.
Galef wrote: Eldar Wraith Lords now have "WraithStrider: a model with this rule adds +3" when if moves in the movement phase, or charges in the assault phase". Because it makes no sense for a model whose legs are twice the height of a Space marine to move as slow as infantry. Eldar don't build slow lumbering machines.
Galef wrote: Eldar Wraith Lords now have "WraithStrider: a model with this rule adds +3" when if moves in the movement phase, or charges in the assault phase". Because it makes no sense for a model whose legs are twice the height of a Space marine to move as slow as infantry. Eldar don't build slow lumbering machines.
Sure. Just pay for it.
On the already overpriced model? We are right now.
Galef wrote: Eldar Wraith Lords now have "WraithStrider: a model with this rule adds +3" when if moves in the movement phase, or charges in the assault phase". Because it makes no sense for a model whose legs are twice the height of a Space marine to move as slow as infantry. Eldar don't build slow lumbering machines.
Sure. Just pay for it.
On the already overpriced model? We are right now.
Oh WraithLORD. Nm. Give the Wraithlord stuff for sure. Since the Wraithlord actually dies to poison and krak missiles, I wouldn't mind it getting substantial buffs.
Oh WraithLORD. Nm. Give the Wraithlord stuff for sure. Since the Wraithlord actually dies to poison and krak missiles, I wouldn't mind it getting substantial buffs.
Yep. This thread is meant to buff "OVERLOOKED" units, not over-used ones. Don't feel bad, almost everyone thinks you're talking about the WK at first when you mention the WL.
This rule would also create an interesting movement "scale" with WG moving 6", WL moving 9", WK moving 12" with Jump
The devil fish needs to have its dakka nerfed and its price lowered to about 60 points after losing its burst cannon. or it should also be given a SMS for "free" as an option like how it is with the other two tanks. (A sms already costs 24 points because of the drones you trade away, so why pay an extra 10 points on top of the lost drones?) make the hull mounted burst cannon an upgrade.
The devilfish is simply too costly at 85 points raw for a transport. It's a nice transport sure, but I feel like its price is prohibitive, for a 108 point unit of fire warriors. You might see less gunline tau and more zippy objective grabbing fast response style lists if this change happened, and you'd also see breaches be considered more as an actual option. (Breachers are fine, the devil fish's price is what makes them questionable.)
In otherwords I'm wanting to see a devilfish start out as just a sturdy floating box at 60-70 points, with weapon systems being made into options that raise the price whilst not being required in the standard build. A 60-70 point troop transport with a SMS might actually something I'd consider.
Jaxler wrote: The devil fish needs to have its dakka nerfed and its price lowered to about 60 points after losing its burst cannon. or it should also be given a SMS for "free" as an option like how it is with the other two tanks. (A sms already costs 24 points because of the drones you trade away, so why pay an extra 10 points on top of the lost drones?) make the hull mounted burst cannon an upgrade.
The devilfish is simply too costly at 85 points raw for a transport. It's a nice transport sure, but I feel like its price is prohibitive, for a 108 point unit of fire warriors. You might see less gunline tau and more zippy objective grabbing fast response style lists if this change happened, and you'd also see breaches be considered more as an actual option. (Breachers are fine, the devil fish's price is what makes them questionable.)
In otherwords I'm wanting to see a devilfish start out as just a sturdy floating box at 60-70 points, with weapon systems being made into options that raise the price whilst not being required in the standard build.
Actually I'll one up you here. I'd like to see all Tau vehicles become viable again for diversity's sake. And the models look fantastic.
Jaxler wrote: The devil fish needs to have its dakka nerfed and its price lowered to about 60 points after losing its burst cannon. or it should also be given a SMS for "free" as an option like how it is with the other two tanks. (A sms already costs 24 points because of the drones you trade away, so why pay an extra 10 points on top of the lost drones?) make the hull mounted burst cannon an upgrade.
The devilfish is simply too costly at 85 points raw for a transport. It's a nice transport sure, but I feel like its price is prohibitive, for a 108 point unit of fire warriors. You might see less gunline tau and more zippy objective grabbing fast response style lists if this change happened, and you'd also see breaches be considered more as an actual option. (Breachers are fine, the devil fish's price is what makes them questionable.)
In otherwords I'm wanting to see a devilfish start out as just a sturdy floating box at 60-70 points, with weapon systems being made into options that raise the price whilst not being required in the standard build.
Actually I'll one up you here. I'd like to see all Tau vehicles become viable again for diversity's sake. And the models look fantastic.
Agreed, though skyray a still hold up. Too bad you can't fit them in the decurion =\ also long strike is situational, and isn't too bad. I'd defibetly call him viable. Piranhas are only good though if you own 16 and your meta hasn't decided that piranha drone factory isn't RAI. Even then the factory isn't that op.. Just pop the one lead pirhana.
Martel732 wrote: Even long strike suffers from single shot AT being useless vs MCs and marginal vs actual vehicles.
The Hammerhead should be a damn nightmare, but instead it's lame. I hate that so much. It should have the D weapon, not the Stormsurge.
I feel like rail weapons in general need a bit more teeth. As much as I hate the whole "distroys vehicles" being something that everything does now with ease, I feel like rail weapons need something to make them actually worth fearing. They used to be tau's bread in butter. Maybe something like giving them +1 on the pen table by default. I feel like making them D or bigger doesn't fit the lore. They don't delete a tank into nothing, they cut through it like butter and scramble the crew. 3+ (2 for ap 1 and the an extra from the purposes buff) would make them actually have the teeth needed to hurt something if they hit. Nothing feels worse than hitting a battle wagon with long strike only for it to get a weapon destroyed or something equally minor with what is said to turn leman Russ tanks into terrain pieces. Also making rail sides be able to pop things easier would make them far better AA guys. right now that's the only role you'd consider them for, might as well make them decent at it.
I don't care about the lore, though. A weapon that large should be a D weapon. To scale, that is an enormous rail slug. It's going to cause more than one wound to an MC, if not vaporize it in one shot.
Either make it that you roll ar the start of the lsychic phase, and the power you get can be casted immediately with no range restriction (regardless of if you know it already or not).
Or you can choose which discipline you want to roll on, however you cant pick the same discipline twice in a row (even if it fails because you already know the power)
TheCustomLime wrote: Land Raiders get 4++ Invuln from shots coming from the front.
Why just the front?
It's supposed to be a single, tiny buff no? If I wanted to give a complete list of buffs to make the Land Raider viable:
-Ability to reroll dangerous terrain checks. Why would one of the mightiest tanks in the Imperium throw a track by driving over some rubble?
-The Lascannons count as being a two shot weapon instead of twin-linked. Two Lascannon shots don't cut it anymore. Call it the phobos pattern Lascannon or something.
-A 4++ Invuln. This represents the tank's obscene armor.
-Give the option to replace the Twin-linked Heavy Bolter with a Grav-cannon for like 25 points. Chaos Land Raiders can get a bale flamer for the same cost.
This way, the Land Raider can fulfill it's lore role of being a heavy weapons platform as well as a tough as nails transport.
Exalted Flamer is Jetpack Infantry (they're relentless if I remember).
Boom, all problems with the unit solved.
YES PLEASE!!!! Regular Flamers are Jump Infantry already, so making the bigger version Jetpack Infantry would not be a stretch of the imagination. Getting Relentless to shoot its heavy weapon would make it field-able.
-The Lascannons count as being a two shot weapon instead of twin-linked. Two Lascannon shots don't cut it anymore. Call it the phobos pattern Lascannon or something.
They already have a name: “Godhammers”. Which, frankly is better sounding then “Phobos” IMHO.
But switching all the LR guns from TL’d to 2xshots would give them a pretty hefty boost to their firepower. Not an unreasonable one though.
Would make buffs a/o Sgt. Chronos a lot better on them as well.
Hellguns become assault 3 with the same range, allows Scions to be able to compensate for bad deep strike scatters or doesn't force them to deep strike so close to their targets.
Codex Orks in its entirety: Make mob rule cascading. (ie : 1+ : if in melee, you pass your leadership test, 2+ : if you have a character, etc, 4+, if you have 10 models or more, etc). Makes the W!G "bonus" not a nerf.
Cybork: +1 to FnP, like the Iron Hands
Flashgitz: 4+ armor
Burnaboyz: can use their flamers as flamers and power weapons in the same turn
All Walkers: Rampage
Codex Space Marines
Assault Marines: make chainswords AP 5
Land raiders: re-rolls dangerous terrain checks
Dreadnoughts: Rampage
-The Lascannons count as being a two shot weapon instead of twin-linked. Two Lascannon shots don't cut it anymore. Call it the phobos pattern Lascannon or something.
They already have a name: “Godhammers”. Which, frankly is better sounding then “Phobos” IMHO.
But switching all the LR guns from TL’d to 2xshots would give them a pretty hefty boost to their firepower. Not an unreasonable one though.
Would make buffs a/o Sgt. Chronos a lot better on them as well.
I really wish GW would break away from the "Two Imperial weapons next to each other=One weapon TL" thing. On some platforms it's warranted like the Razorback since those are fire support weapons but I think the Land Raider should get the boosted firepower. They managed to do it with the Leman Russ exterminator.
That was the old 2nd ed way. A twin linked lascannon rolled to hit once, and scored two hits. Of course, targeters made it BS 5 effectively. I guess the imperium threw those away in 3rd ed.
Happyjew wrote: Allow Genestealers to assault from Infiltrate.
Allow Lictors to assault after deep striking.
I think we can buff assault infantry without giving them the ability to assault without any chance for counter play. Sure this would make those units good, but it would also make them annoying as hell for anyone playing. What happens when the gunline gets turn 1 assaulted by CQB specialist units? or you land a direct hit on deep strike and attack an HQ or expensive unit without any real options from the other guy. If people already think drop pod lists can be annoying, I feel like this would hit that up to 11.
First turn assault should always not be an option. I feel like you should be able to fix assault without going "If you go first you can auto delete a shooting focused unit."
Why is it perfectly fine to obliterate hundreds of points from across the table with shooting but immediate melee is a negative play experience without the chance for counter play?
Happyjew wrote: Allow Genestealers to assault from Infiltrate.
Allow Lictors to assault after deep striking.
I think we can buff assault infantry without giving them the ability to assault without any chance for counter play. Sure this would make those units good, but it would also make them annoying as hell for anyone playing. What happens when the gunline gets turn 1 assaulted by CQB specialist units? or you land a direct hit on deep strike and attack an HQ or expensive unit without any real options from the other guy. If people already think drop pod lists can be annoying, I feel like this would hit that up to 11.
First turn assault should always not be an option. I feel like you should be able to fix assault without going "If you go first you can auto delete a shooting focused unit."
I don't really see the difference between this and drop pod lists. Turn 1 drop melta has been around since forever and isn't really a big deal.
I agree that long-range/drop shooting killing some of your units before they get to do anything is annoying. But so long as that remains a thing, I don't see why some assault units shouldn't get to do it too.
• Tactical marines get combat blades on top of their existing gear?
• Chainswords get Shred?
Makes tacs more flexible (and equips them as per the fluff); makes basic assault marines a bit more menacing, and makes Chainswords an actual upgrade. Tell me what I've overlooked that makes these terrible suggestions.
Happyjew wrote: Allow Genestealers to assault from Infiltrate.
Allow Lictors to assault after deep striking.
I think we can buff assault infantry without giving them the ability to assault without any chance for counter play. Sure this would make those units good, but it would also make them annoying as hell for anyone playing. What happens when the gunline gets turn 1 assaulted by CQB specialist units? or you land a direct hit on deep strike and attack an HQ or expensive unit without any real options from the other guy. If people already think drop pod lists can be annoying, I feel like this would hit that up to 11.
First turn assault should always not be an option. I feel like you should be able to fix assault without going "If you go first you can auto delete a shooting focused unit."
Your point would be valid if Overwatch didn't exist.
Change VotLW from Hatred: Space Marines to Preferred Enemy: Space Marines. Or even Preferred Enemy: Imperium
Would Buff VotLW all together and make more sense overall.
If Abbadon has been fighting the long war for 10,000 years, He'd definitely Prefer to fight a Space Marine, or anything from the Imperium, Knowing how they work after thousands of years of combat than he would fighting a Crisis Suit
I like this in theory, but we really need to expand it to benefit more than just Marines. Maybe make a BRB rule that causes D3 wounds on MCs if the Str of the attack wounds naturally on 2+ (discounting Fleshbane or Poison)
I like this in theory, but we really need to expand it to benefit more than just Marines. Maybe make a BRB rule that causes D3 wounds on MCs if the Str of the attack wounds naturally on 2+ (discounting Fleshbane or Poison)
If you add a rule to anti tank and heavy weapons that would cause d3 wounds instead of 1 as long as the strength of the weapon is at least 1 strength above the targets toughness.
Eternal Warrior should be changed from immune to instant death to suffers d3 wounds instead of instantly dying as well.
I like this in theory, but we really need to expand it to benefit more than just Marines. Maybe make a BRB rule that causes D3 wounds on MCs if the Str of the attack wounds naturally on 2+ (discounting Fleshbane or Poison)
I think D3 wounds would be good as well. Basically, Lascannons should be able to wreck a Riptide.
I like this in theory, but we really need to expand it to benefit more than just Marines. Maybe make a BRB rule that causes D3 wounds on MCs if the Str of the attack wounds naturally on 2+ (discounting Fleshbane or Poison)
Or just this:
Bane of the Mighty:
A weapon with this rule causes D3 Wounds or Hull Points to a target, rather than the usual 1.
Happyjew wrote: Allow Genestealers to assault from Infiltrate.
Allow Lictors to assault after deep striking.
I think we can buff assault infantry without giving them the ability to assault without any chance for counter play. Sure this would make those units good, but it would also make them annoying as hell for anyone playing. What happens when the gunline gets turn 1 assaulted by CQB specialist units? or you land a direct hit on deep strike and attack an HQ or expensive unit without any real options from the other guy. If people already think drop pod lists can be annoying, I feel like this would hit that up to 11.
First turn assault should always not be an option. I feel like you should be able to fix assault without going "If you go first you can auto delete a shooting focused unit."
I don't really see the difference between this and drop pod lists. Turn 1 drop melta has been around since forever and isn't really a big deal.
I agree that long-range/drop shooting killing some of your units before they get to do anything is annoying. But so long as that remains a thing, I don't see why some assault units shouldn't get to do it too.
The difference here is cover saves and that drop pods can be dealt with if you've a lot of models and can force the opponent to deploy awkwardly. Also drop pod lists are already annoying gak, and making turn 1 assault a thing, via assault from drop pod would make it so drop pods would be even more absurd.
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Eldarain wrote: Why is it perfectly fine to obliterate hundreds of points from across the table with shooting but immediate melee is a negative play experience without the chance for counter play?
Los blocking terrain and cover saves are a direct counter, and shooting can't sweeping advance.
Turn 1 assaults from deep strike can also tarpit things before they get a chance to do anything.
If a pod full of dakka drops next to you and unloads, anyone who survives the onslaught can shoot back, move away, etc.
But you you assault, even if you don’t kill it outright, you lock your target in CC for their shooting turn (at the very least) This is pretty significant.
That said, I’d like to see it come back for the top-end elite assault units. Sang guard, genestealers, those kind of guys. Maybe down to merely special assault units like vanguard vets. But a trick reserved for the assault specialist in assault armies for the most part.
AM Taurox - give it Fast Vehicle like the Scion Taurox
Ratlings - Pinning Sniper Rifles
Rough Riders - Carapace Armour as standard
Hellhound & Banewolf- -30 pts
Devil Dog - AP2
Hydra - INTERCEPTOR or IGNORES COVER
Deathstrike - +40 pts and D
malamis wrote: AM Taurox - give it Fast Vehicle like the Scion Taurox
The point of the Scion version is that it exchanges some weapon options for speed.
Hydra - INTERCEPTOR or IGNORES COVER
Doesn't need either of those. Just needs to be given Auto-Targeting Systems back(Ignores Jink saves) and the following special rule:
Withering Fire:
A Hydra Flak Tank can choose to fire at ground targets(as defined in Death From the Skies. When doing so, the Hydra Flak Cannons gain the Shred USR.
Deathstrike - +40 pts and D
The Deathstrike is already overcosted for a weapon that can only be fired once per game, past the first turn, and requires you to roll a dice to see if it even fires.
It can be Strength D if it wants to. If you want to add more points to it, then it gets the following special rule:
Rearming Procedures:
After the first time a Deathstrike Missile has been launched, you can rearm it. Rearming the Deathstrike requires you to have a Techpriest Enginseer and his accompanying Servitors in base contact with the vehicle for a full turn.
They cannot shoot or perform any other actions for the duration of this turn.
Any shots fired at the Deathstrike while rearming require you to roll a D6. On a 4+, the incoming fire damages a critical component and the rearming procedure needs to begin anew.
Give doom scythes death ray AP 0 (ala fire dragons) instead of AP 1, which would give them a unique roll in the codex, and you might actually see them used. Not that necrons need the buff, I'd just like a reason to dust off my flyers.
Martel732 wrote: Bane of the Mighty would also have to eliminate FNP.
At that point, you might as well just make it Instant Death.
No, you still have to do the wounds. But no 5++/5+++ for the Riptide or GMCs. They get their invuln, nothing else, You shouldn't be able to FNP against an anti-tank weapon.
Martel732 wrote: Bane of the Mighty would also have to eliminate FNP.
At that point, you might as well just make it Instant Death.
No, you still have to do the wounds. But no 5++/5+++ for the Riptide or GMCs. They get their invuln, nothing else, You shouldn't be able to FNP against an anti-tank weapon.
As coined before: -- Vindicators should have AV's of 13 - 12 - 12.
-- Terminators should have 2 Wounds.
My Ideas: -- Siege Shields should have at least one of the following additional properties:
-- -- Give a Cover Save (6+) against Ballistic Attacks against FA.
-- -- Give a +1 Modifier to Front Armour
-- -- Able to be destroyed (e.g. by the Weapon Destroyed Result.
Having at least one of those additional properties will make them more worth taking.
IllumiNini wrote: As coined before: -- Vindicators should have AV's of 13 - 12 - 12.
-- Terminators should have 2 Wounds.
My Ideas: -- Siege Shields should have at least one of the following additional properties:
-- -- Give a Cover Save (6+) against Ballistic Attacks against FA.
-- -- Give a +1 Modifier to Front Armour
-- -- Able to be destroyed (e.g. by the Weapon Destroyed Result.
Having at least one of those additional properties will make them more worth taking.
I like the +1 AV idea. It is a shield, after all.
Which gives me an idea for a relic. Storm Siege Shield. Gives the Vindicator a 3++ on the front armor.
malamis wrote: AM Taurox - give it Fast Vehicle like the Scion Taurox
The point of the Scion version is that it exchanges some weapon options for speed.
It actually doesn't?
It gains a discount battle cannon, punisher lite, an option on missile racks and the hellguns as well as BS 4 along with fast. The standard Taurox is stuck with twin linked autocannons.
Hydra - INTERCEPTOR or IGNORES COVER
Doesn't need either of those. Just needs to be given Auto-Targeting Systems back(Ignores Jink saves) and the following special rule:
Withering Fire:
A Hydra Flak Tank can choose to fire at ground targets(as defined in Death From the Skies. When doing so, the Hydra Flak Cannons gain the Shred USR.
While that would be interesting for MC harassment, especially if combined with the Emprah's Wrath battery for orders, I think it'd be too good. Fragility aside that makes it considerably better than the exterminator and arguably the executioner at the given threat profile, and it's doing something IG should never do which is attempt to multi-role instead of specialise. Since the Vendetta is dying and the Valkyrie is a non-issue when dealing with hostile air, the Hydra is the only really useful AA option in the grand codex aside from the AA manticore ( which is hideously expensive for what it does) and as such needs to be given something to swat a single target out of the sky reliably. Since it's a jumped up chimera i'm leaning towards interceptor as anything it's going to threaten, will itself be a threat to it.
Deathstrike - +40 pts and D
The Deathstrike is already overcosted for a weapon that can only be fired once per game, past the first turn, and requires you to roll a dice to see if it even fires.
It can be Strength D if it wants to. If you want to add more points to it, then it gets the following special rule:
Rearming Procedures:
After the first time a Deathstrike Missile has been launched, you can rearm it. Rearming the Deathstrike requires you to have a Techpriest Enginseer and his accompanying Servitors in base contact with the vehicle for a full turn.
They cannot shoot or perform any other actions for the duration of this turn.
Any shots fired at the Deathstrike while rearming require you to roll a D6. On a 4+, the incoming fire damages a critical component and the rearming procedure needs to begin anew.
I'll have to contest that one - The Deathstrike is borderline viable in it's current incarnation SO LONG AS YOU TREAT IT PROPERLY i.e. park it behind a bastion at the corner of the table where no-one can see it. One shot Ignores cover D 10" blast + perhaps 'target ground' effect would be worth 200 pts, since there's nothing comparable below the 500 point mark anywhere.
Not an overlooked unit but would like Sternguard specialist ammo to be a modifier rather than separate profile so it could be used with storm bolters in assault 24" mode. Would make them abit more tasty to use as a swiss army knife unit rather than suicide combi weapons, would also work well along side their 2 attacks and Pedro as bully units to steal objectives from troops with.
Storm troopers with WS4 and Assault 2 18" hot shots would fill a similar role for AM and it would differentiate them from veterans a little more, would also be nice if their command squads could issue 2 senior officer orders, making them a little more effective against tougher targets.
IG special weapons teams get can squad up for the sake of transport like the combined squad thing for marines. 2 teams fit in a vendetta or chimera.
I'd say that you could use 2 teams without needing an infantry platoon and that both squads would only count as 1 troop choice. What I'm saying is if you play vet spam, you could take 2 squads of these to replace 1 vet squad.
I like Kanluwen's Bane of the Mighty idea a lot better. Lascannons would be able to actually perform their functions.
Even then the current issue people have with MC's is in regard to specific Monstrous Creatures. Imo people don't really have problems with tyrants (especially the foot sloggers) or demon princes. Either of the suggested buffs would make them extremely overkill against such targets.
Lascannons needs to knock off more than one wound, though. The fact that they don't is why marines have to use grav so heavily. All the actual anti-tank weapons have been neutered by power creep.
Yeah but that's also the problem, if you buff the lascannon you then have to buff every MC that was around during the era that the lascannon was the main AT weapon.
Baldeagle91 wrote: Yeah but that's also the problem, if you buff the lascannon you then have to buff every MC that was around during the era that the lascannon was the main AT weapon.
Baldeagle91 wrote: Yeah but that's also the problem, if you buff the lascannon you then have to buff every MC that was around during the era that the lascannon was the main AT weapon.
Or make them cheaper.
Probs the best solution would be to instead raise the price of Lascannons.... but then some armies like IG would suffer.
Baldeagle91 wrote: Yeah but that's also the problem, if you buff the lascannon you then have to buff every MC that was around during the era that the lascannon was the main AT weapon.
Or make them cheaper.
Probs the best solution would be to instead raise the price of Lascannons.... but then some armies like IG would suffer.
That defeats the purpose. The lascannon is completely ineffective at its current price point deployment scheme.
I like Kanluwen's Bane of the Mighty idea a lot better. Lascannons would be able to actually perform their functions.
Even then the current issue people have with MC's is in regard to specific Monstrous Creatures. Imo people don't really have problems with tyrants (especially the foot sloggers) or demon princes. Either of the suggested buffs would make them extremely overkill against such targets.
People don't have problems with footslogging Hive Tyrants because footslogging Hive Tyrants aren't really a thing, same thing goes for Daemon Princes. To see either of those on the field is (putting it mildly) a bit of a rarity these days.
Hive Tyrants can offset it a bit by taking Tyrant Guard and Venomthropes though.
pm713 wrote: Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.
On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Because having invis till your fire at least makes you immune to alpha strikes. Which is the point of stealth I believe.
Alpha strikes aren't their problem, their problem that they don't do anything unique or well. Maybe brinhing back the old stealth field rules where people had to roll to see if they were close enough ro shoot would work, but I wanted to keep it simple .
pm713 wrote: Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.
On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.
Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.
"their problem that they don't do anything unique or well."
That's my entire codex, which is why I can't legitimately add to this list, as there are no small changes that would help. Maybe if I could take 1-man squads lol.
pm713 wrote: Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.
On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.
Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.
How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.
pm713 wrote: Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.
On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.
Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.
How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.
Martel732 wrote: "their problem that they don't do anything unique or well."
That's my codex, which is why I can't legitimately add to this list, as there are no small changes that would help. Maybe if I could take 1-man squads lol.
Martel732 wrote: "their problem that they don't do anything unique or well."
That's my codex, which is why I can't legitimately add to this list, as there are no small changes that would help. Maybe if I could take 1-man squads lol.
special rule, all attacks are S: D
That's not a small change, though. I'm pretty boned on this poll. There is no simple way to make jump meqs not totally fail in 7th.
pm713 wrote: Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.
On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.
Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.
How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.
21 what?
Sorry, typing on my phone. That's supposed to be w1.
pm713 wrote: Because permanent invisibility is OP and in no way a "tiny buff". Not even Eldar got that.
On some things perhaps, but stealth suits are not good at all. They are limited to 18" range, and will have burst cannons. They are expensive, and take up a highly contested elites slot. A whole team of suits cost 180 points, for 24 burst cannon shots on a squishy playform, trading s&s for invis would not be a problem. Although adding a "if a member of the party lacks a stealth field, the unit looses invisibility might be a good idea ro prevent IC abuse.
Honestly it doesn't really matter what the unit has. While that might not be massively OP for tournaments every single casual player just got fethed over which really isn't fair.
How exactly? FW teams have more damage output than stealthsuit. And they are T3, 21.
21 what?
Sorry, typing on my phone. That's supposed to be w1.
Ugh phone typing always gets me.
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
TheCustomLime wrote: It can't destroy vehicles, it can barely plink heavy infantry and it's awful against MCs. Lascannons are kind of useless nowadays.
Tbh vehicles aren't exactly hard to destroy these days. The main problem is High S and High AP weapons can't reliably pop vehicles in one shot anymore. But then again for vehicles in their current state that may be a good thing....
TheCustomLime wrote: It can't destroy vehicles, it can barely plink heavy infantry and it's awful against MCs. Lascannons are kind of useless nowadays.
Tbh vehicles aren't exactly hard to destroy these days. The main problem is High S and High AP weapons can't reliably pop vehicles in one shot anymore. But then again for vehicles in their current state that may be a good thing....
They are tolerable against vehicles, but fail utterly against MCs. Which is stupid and frustrating because MCs dominate the game now. As well as units of pseudo-MCs, ie TWC.
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.
You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.
You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.
And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.
You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.
And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.
Which doesn't matter much when you can ignore 5/6 hits and pass 5/6 saves most of the time. Plus immune to templates and blast. Can't they infiltrate?
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.
You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.
And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.
Which doesn't matter much when you can ignore 5/6 hits and pass 5/6 saves most of the time. Plus immune to templates and blast. Can't they infiltrate?
They have a 3+ save, not a 2+. And it can be ignored.
You don't see how units of near impossible to hurt suits is a tad OP for casual play?
Honestly, no, because they aren't strong, and wouldn't be impossible to kill with this. It's still a 1/6 chance to hit, and they are squishy. It would be like them taking both their armor and cover saves.
You need to hit on a 6, then wound, then fail the save. They aren't great but they aren't THAT bad.
And they are a T3 unit, not exactly hard to wound. And they have to get in close to do any sort of damage (18", remember), so that means they will almost always be able to be shot at. It's one of their main problems, other than the unnecessary expanse, lack of options, and contested elites slot.
Which doesn't matter much when you can ignore 5/6 hits and pass 5/6 saves most of the time. Plus immune to templates and blast. Can't they infiltrate?
They have a 3+ save, not a 2+. And it can be ignored.
Yes, they can infiltrate.
When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Stealth suits: Invisibility
Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.
Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee.
Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters
Okay so at 1850 I can take around 15 units of 3 of these guys (yes unbound). Seeing as you cann't hit them with blast or template, grav it probably going to be you best option for killing these guys. Even hitting them with 20 grav shots is only going to cause 2.2222 wounds before cover saves. Yeah that seems fair.....
I assume because the ghostkeel is a stealth unit, it gets invis too?
When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.
Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Stealth suits: Invisibility Makes sense, right? Might actually make them a little too good for the price.
Vespids: Give them two attacks, S4, AP3 on melee. Would make them nice, mobile, but not too strong anti meq assaulters
Okay so at 1850 I can take around 15 units of 3 of these guys (yes unbound). Seeing as you cann't hit them with blast or template, grav it probably going to be you best option for killing these guys. Even hitting them with 20 grav shots is only going to cause 2.2222 wounds before cover saves. Yeah that seems fair.....
I assume because the ghostkeel is a stealth unit, it gets invis too?
Nah, they're good all one their own.
Also, grav isn't what you would want to use at all. They already die to any sort of high RoF weapon. It would be the same here, you would just have to fire more.
When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.
Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.
It isn't hard to get into cover and AP3 is hardly everywhere. Again I am not arguing that that isn't true but I am arguing giving them Invisibility base is ridiculous because casual players exist.
When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.
Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.
It isn't hard to get into cover and AP3 is hardly everywhere. Again I am not arguing that that isn't true but I am arguing giving them Invisibility base is ridiculous because casual players exist.
And I'm saying it's not. They don't have nearly enough damage output or base resistance to really be an overpowering threat. And you do realize that riptides are taken in elite slots. I'd much rather face a units of invisable stealth suits than a riptide. So I don't think "casual" players are an issue. Hell I'm basically a causal player.
When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.
Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.
It isn't hard to get into cover and AP3 is hardly everywhere. Again I am not arguing that that isn't true but I am arguing giving them Invisibility base is ridiculous because casual players exist.
And I'm saying it's not. They don't have nearly enough damage output or base resistance to really be an overpowering threat. And you do realize that riptides are taken in elite slots. I'd much rather face a units of invisable stealth suits than a riptide. So I don't think "casual" players are an issue. Hell I'm basically a causal player.
Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.
pm713 wrote: Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.
Tempestus Command - Senior Officer rule, Medkit/Standard doesn't replace a special weapons carrier.
Tempestus Scions - Sgt may exchange HS pistol for HS rifle, squad may reroll failed orders using Clarion Vox-Net.
Taurox Prime - may take 15pts of free vehicle equipment, outfitted upon deployment. Augur Array now costs 10pts. Rerolls both dangerous terrain checks and Cover Saves.
Valkyrie (Prime) - BS4. May exchange sponson HB for Volleyguns, may exchange Nose/Rack weapons for TL-Punisher Gatling. Brrrrrrt!
Commissar/LC - The first attached Commissar does not cost FOC slot, and gains MTC/DS.
Formations - Troops and Transports gain Obsec, all formations may include 2nd Command squad.
pm713 wrote: Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.
I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.
Maybe you should have mentioned that in your post then .
Even then, though, free Invis is probably too much of a buff.
At least full on proper invis requires luck to cast and can theoretically be stopped by an opponent.
pm713 wrote: Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.
I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.
Maybe you should have mentioned that in your post then .
Even then, though, free Invis is probably too much of a buff.
At least full on proper invis requires luck to cast and can theoretically be stopped by an opponent.
I feel that pistols should be usable in melee. Instead of counting as an extra melee weapon, granting a S: user and AP - attack, they should use their full ranged profile. The over-costed plasma pistol suddenly competes with the plasma gun for damage output. They both do two shots a turn when within 12" (assuming charge range), but the pistol is also accompanied by melee attacks. All of the characters who are forced to buy plasma pistols (Kharn, Lukas, etc) are now more powerful. Armies with access to pistols but have poor melee stats (Imperial Guard) have a use for their side-arm. What's the point of a side-arm you never use when a sidearm is its most useful, in close quarters, except as a makeshift club? Khorne Berzerkers with plasma pistols make a lot more sense. The CSM choice to take plasma pistols as special weapons make a lot more sense.
The second is that Relentless should allow the model to also ignore the Unwieldy special rule, rather than Smash. The problem I have is that a Captain/ Chapter Master/ Wolf Lord are all significantly more inclined to take the cheaper option of Artificer Armor over Terminator Armor. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick Terminator armor over artificer armor, except for Deepstrike access, which drop pods and jump packs allow you to do for free. Terminators are a significantly bigger threat now, with I4 power fists/ thunder hammers/ power axes. It makes sense that a suit of armor LITERALLY supported by servos made to allow the wielder to fire a gun meant to be mounted on a tank with the same dexterity as if they were firing a rifle in the buff should be able to allow the Marine to wield a weapon like a power-fist more easily than a power-armored marine. The other implications are that units like Ork Meganobz are suddenly far more dangerous, and Ghazkull Thraka is finally viable. These units were all already afraid of each other, and their abilities against each other are unchanged (power klaws and power fists still go simo) but their ability in regards to other infantry is far more reflective of their capabilities.
The consequence is that Lightning Claws are slightly worse (still the only source of +1A and Shred, so y'know, still not bad at killing infantry) for loyalists (the power fist/ lightning claw combo would still live) and that the Khorne: Daemonkin Axe of Khorne is essentially a weaker power fist on a terminator. But those aren't necessarily problems, as much as trade-offs (you have the servo-added strength to flip a tank and you still choose to wield a very sharp axe? Your loss).
pm713 wrote: Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.
I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.
Maybe you should have mentioned that in your post then .
Even then, though, free Invis is probably too much of a buff.
At least full on proper invis requires luck to cast and can theoretically be stopped by an opponent.
I stated it a couple times...
What if they only had invisibility when X inches away from the enemy?
I feel that pistols should be usable in melee. Instead of counting as an extra melee weapon, granting a S: user and AP - attack, they should use their full ranged profile. The over-costed plasma pistol suddenly competes with the plasma gun for damage output. They both do two shots a turn when within 12" (assuming charge range), but the pistol is also accompanied by melee attacks. All of the characters who are forced to buy plasma pistols (Kharn, Lukas, etc) are now more powerful. Armies with access to pistols but have poor melee stats (Imperial Guard) have a use for their side-arm. What's the point of a side-arm you never use when a sidearm is its most useful, in close quarters, except as a makeshift club? Khorne Berzerkers with plasma pistols make a lot more sense. The CSM choice to take plasma pistols as special weapons make a lot more sense.
The second is that Relentless should allow the model to also ignore the Unwieldy special rule, rather than Smash. The problem I have is that a Captain/ Chapter Master/ Wolf Lord are all significantly more inclined to take the cheaper option of Artificer Armor over Terminator Armor. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick Terminator armor over artificer armor, except for Deepstrike access, which drop pods and jump packs allow you to do for free. Terminators are a significantly bigger threat now, with I4 power fists/ thunder hammers/ power axes. It makes sense that a suit of armor LITERALLY supported by servos made to allow the wielder to fire a gun meant to be mounted on a tank with the same dexterity as if they were firing a rifle in the buff should be able to allow the Marine to wield a weapon like a power-fist more easily than a power-armored marine. The other implications are that units like Ork Meganobz are suddenly far more dangerous, and Ghazkull Thraka is finally viable. These units were all already afraid of each other, and their abilities against each other are unchanged (power klaws and power fists still go simo) but their ability in regards to other infantry is far more reflective of their capabilities.
The consequence is that Lightning Claws are slightly worse (still the only source of +1A and Shred, so y'know, still not bad at killing infantry) for loyalists (the power fist/ lightning claw combo would still live) and that the Khorne: Daemonkin Axe of Khorne is essentially a weaker power fist on a terminator. But those aren't necessarily problems, as much as trade-offs (you have the servo-added strength to flip a tank and you still choose to wield a very sharp axe? Your loss).
What if they only had invisibility when X inches away from the enemy?
In that case I'd just go back to the old stealth rules where you had to roll 3d6 to see if you were in range of them. That means thay have to be able to shoot at you if you can shoot at them,
pm713 wrote: Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.
Give Wyches the acrobat rule. +3 inches to any moves made (charge, run, consolidate, normal move, etc.) and make their reflexes a 5+ inv against shooting and not just melee. Increase their speed and reliability to get into combat and make them more survivable to shooting. Also make archons able to take archite glaives. An hq without ap 2 hurts considering how much of it is flying around with marines, GK, and everything else I'm to lazy to list
Don't feel bad, almost everyone thinks you're talking about the WK at first when you mention the 
