At most game stores I see at a minimum 50-75% of players play Space Marines (CSM, Grey Knights included). Loyalist Marines vs Loyalists (e.g. Space Wolves vs. Ultramarines) are super common. I almost never see a Xenos vs Xenos match. Often times when a 40k player who owns a Space Marine army decides to try sometime different with a new army he starts another "different" SM army. (Say Dark Angels player decides to start a Grey Knights Army [Completely different!]) You almost never to never see rarer armies like Skitaari, Harlequins, Dark Eldar... etc
Do you like the lack of diversity and the predominance of Space Marine players in the hobby? I added a poll.
Warhammer 40,000 has kind of always been about Space Marines even from the very beginning. So, the fact that a good proportion of players have them is understandable.
Do I like it? I am fairly neutral about it. People can play whatever army they want. And I'd be a hypocrite if I said I hated it since I play Space Marines myself.
I get the impression it might differ from place to place.
In the meta I play in the xenos players arent as outnumbered. We currently have 2 space marine players, of which im one, and 2 CSM players. Compare that to 3 ork, 2 guard, 1 eldar, 1 necron, 2 nid, and a tau player.
All people who have marines in my area also play another army as their "main". Only me and another Sally player really use our marines all the time. Also, I wouldn't really roll CSM and SM into one category. They're different enough to not call then SM.
The amount of marines is fine. While many marine players get a different colour of marine, many also get a xeno army as their 2nd/3rd/nth army too.
Fluff-wise: Marines are the hero of the story 9 times out of ten, marines are in every starter box, there's a marine legion out there that speaks to 95% of people on some level on what they think is cool, marines are the force that drives the main story forward. It's only expected that there's a large amount of marine players (espeially when you lump CSM in there as well, though they're getting pretty rare on the ground these days due to the poor rules).
Crunch-wise: Go take a look at an army that has minimal saves and see how well they do. Tell me how great it is to take Dark Eldar, non-carapace guardsmen or non-MC spam 'Nids. The basline of the str 4 AP5 bolter (or equivalent) means anything that doesn't get a save against this is basically worthless. Once you eliminate that, then you've only got 2+/3+/4+ troops left, with the 2+ option being restricted to most codecies.
You don't see armies like DE because they're terrible. You don't see Skitarii as much because they've only been out for a year unlike the ~30 years that marines have been a thing and you don't see harlies because they're both terrible AND new.
You could look at it one of 2 ways, either the marines have far too much of the spotlight (with 19+ different marine factions) and should be toned down to give the other armies a chance...
OR
The other armies are lucky to be made and are in effect subsidised by the massive amount of popular marine armies and only exist so that the marines have something new and interesting to fight.
Personaly, I play 7 different armies, 3 of which are marines, and I don't see any issue with army variation in my area as it's fairly rare for 2 people to collect the same army, and even if they do, they generally collect said army in a very different way (mech vs footsloggers).
Orks are my passion but I have been getting into Space Wolves on the side. I did this while knowing that too many people play space marines. But as I know nobody likes a mirror match, what I play depends on who im playing.
If anything is too common its imperial knights and riptides. I miss the Baneblade.
edit: Yea the numbers have everything to do with it tbh. Why get into nids where you have to paint 30 of them when you can just paint 5 marines and have a better save while you're at it? It just seems cost efficient.
Space Marines is what brings most people into the hobby, so it's only natural that there is a predominance of space marine players - I think something like 50% had at least one SM army. Their tactics are versatile, the models are relatively easy to paint, and the image is iconic.
I've been back for about 6 months now playing most of my games at WHW with people I've met on here. I've only played against space marines once and spikey marines a few times. But I remember when I was in the hobby as little kid they seemed a lot more prevalent. Still, that was a very small sample size of games back then.
ChazSexington wrote: Space Marines is what brings most people into the hobby, so it's only natural that there is a predominance of space marine players - I think something like 50% had at least one SM army. Their tactics are versatile, the models are relatively easy to paint, and the image is iconic.
You don't see armies like DE because they're terrible.
That doesn't explain the sheer amount of CSM players out there
What amount of CSM players? Maybe it's just my area, but I'm the only person who has run actual CSM (and not just CSM for Belakor or a cabal) in over a year. You never see actual CSM armies at tournaments, and on the odd occassion that you do, they're left scrouging for scraps on the bottom tables. There's obviously a certain amount of people who play CSM because they like the fluff, the same goes for the DE, but the CSM side of things has more fluff around it due to the heresy being expanded upon as well as being a driving factor in the story while DE are treated like and afterthought. If you're seeing a bunch of CSM players, then you're in a very different meta to everyone else.
What amount of CSM players? Maybe it's just my area, but I'm the only person who has run actual CSM (and not just CSM for Belakor or a cabal) in over a year. You never see actual CSM armies at tournaments, and on the odd occassion that you do, they're left scrouging for scraps on the bottom tables. There's obviously a certain amount of people who play CSM because they like the fluff, the same goes for the DE, but the CSM side of things has more fluff around it due to the heresy being expanded upon as well as being a driving factor in the story while DE are treated like and afterthought. If you're seeing a bunch of CSM players, then you're in a very different meta to everyone else.
As a total of the player base, CSM is the second largest faction (mirrored in my meta). At tournaments many players opt for a different army, but there are way more CSM armies at tournaments than their power level would suggest, though there is a definite lack of power armoured marines in these armies.
the question sounds more then a little leading, with that in mind here's my thoughts...
space marines are THE stars of 40k, of course they're the most common faction. to the average schlub on the street, if he's heard of 40k he's thinking space Marines. all the other armies? when he thinks of em at all he's proably thinking of a peice of art he saw feature SMs killing them.
with that in mind I don't think it's a HUUUGE lack of varity, space marines are, (even ignoring the differant 'dexes that mix things up) easily one of the most versitle armies in the game.
I can make a fast bike army, I can (aas of 7th edition now) make an armor heavy list, I can run mechanized infantry, I can do a drop pod alpha strike list. I can run a small number of tricked out heros, I can go psyker heavy, I can make a shooty army, I can make a choppy army... I can do everything, and if I build my lsit right, be reasonably solid at it.
if you have to fight one army and one army only, Marines gives you the best chance of varied tactics.
What amount of CSM players? Maybe it's just my area, but I'm the only person who has run actual CSM (and not just CSM for Belakor or a cabal) in over a year. You never see actual CSM armies at tournaments, and on the odd occassion that you do, they're left scrouging for scraps on the bottom tables. There's obviously a certain amount of people who play CSM because they like the fluff, the same goes for the DE, but the CSM side of things has more fluff around it due to the heresy being expanded upon as well as being a driving factor in the story while DE are treated like and afterthought. If you're seeing a bunch of CSM players, then you're in a very different meta to everyone else.
As a total of the player base, CSM is the second largest faction (mirrored in my meta). At tournaments many players opt for a different army, but there are way more CSM armies at tournaments than their power level would suggest, though there is a definite lack of power armoured marines in these armies.
As a % of people who ownCSM armies, yeah, sure, I could possibly believe that. As a % of people who actively playCSM armies, no, not even close.
I think GW focuses too much on space marines which creates the whole marine centric feel to 40k right now. As to what people play, it doesn't bother me if everyone played space marines although having variety in general is nice. I think some of the more interesting factions like Sisters, Dark Eldar, Orks, and the "Empire" portion of the Tau Empire get the short end of the stick when it comes to releases and developing them to be fun and interesting to play.
Too much space marines. It drives me nuts. My cousin wanted to play them badly but went Chaos out of spite because of how many dumb and bad marine players there are.
Oh my one friend is a huge Tyranids fan and its his fav between them and his orks. He already bought the boardgame just for the cult and if/when the full army comes out it has one person on board.
The models were really cool and of all the factions I like Tyranids myself quite a bit. If the DE and Necrons detonated the day before I was going to start my next army it's likely Tyranids would be it and at some point genestealer allies.
I run IF loyalists, Demonkin and Slaneesh CSM and I'll be the first to admit too many SMS out there. Almost everyone in my group has some form of marines (CSM, GK, BA, DA, SM). I think 4 out of 13 run strictly non-SM. On the bright side almost every marine player has a secondary or even tertiary army. That and our willingness to army swap for a battle/ campaign keeps stuff fresh. Bottom line is 9 out of 13 locals play SM.
Marine heavy meta allows me to tailor my list for punching the crap out of armour. Melta and fearless daemon. Also I wouldn't group CSM with Marines, mostly because I'm a KDK player but still.
I don't really mind it, I only have two beefs with it.
1) I think the number of Space Marine books is a little absurd. Hearing people clamor about how their vampire or monk or roman or crusader or viking (or are they just wolves now?) Space Marines are so super kewl and unique as to require a whole different book is a little frustrating, especially as the collections of books is never balanced and it's always one marine player griping about stuff the other doesn't get. I'd like to see maybe 2-3 books for Space Marines total, representing the relatively minor ways in which they deviate from each other.
2) I'd also love to see some of the oft-ignored xenos races get a kick up in power. Most of them don't have the luxury of allies, so it would be nice if they at least weren't punching bags for other armies (not just including Space Marines).
I'm guilty myself of playing SM. I kinda abandoned my CSM since their current codex is too weak and they haven't received a decent update. That's why I'm homebrewing one.
None of the polls options feels like the right answer for me, so I suppose abstaining from voting is the best option.
I do think there's too many loyalist marine codices (this coming from someone who's pretty much only played the special snowflake books--BA, DA, SW, GK--too), but I don't actually think there's too many Marine players. That could just be a consequence of my local meta, where usually only one or two (during busy days) folks at the flgs are running some sort of loyalist power armour army.
Honestly, and this is a statement based solely on my area, I'm more concerned with too many CSM armies! The vast majority of players here own a CSM army on the side, if not their main. And what's more is that during tournaments even moreCSM armies get taken to the store--easily 50% of matchups in a tourney will be against something like Berserkers or, Emperor forbid, 20-man power armour blobsquads. Even with a tame army it feels sorta bad to slaughter opponents like that. And it's super hard to make a list that can take on the other 50% of mostly Tau or Necrons, with some loyalist SM and one venom spam army which occasionally pops up, while also providing a fun fight for the CSM's.
One loyalist marine book, one traitor marine book. Done.
I'm fine with that.
I'm not. If I had my way, each Chapter and its Successors would have their own book with some kind of "signature" unit.
The same goes for the Legions and something uniquely associated with them(Thousand Sons would be the most difficult here as they have not really split off into warbands, being a fairly intact Legion for all intents and purposes).
I would give Eldar a book for each Craftworld and Guard would get a book for each famous Regiment.
I'd be okay with marines having tons of books if everyone else did, too. Hell, I'd be at least mostly content with Marines having tons of books if they'd finally release some fething plastic Sisters of Battle.
Which I'd support if I could download all the rules for everything for free. Rules only, no fluff, in a PDF or epub file as I see fit.
If not, having a book for every single sub faction of note is incredibly costly to collect for those with a desire to have a flexible army or multiple armies, and would be an absolute bitch to keep track of every single snowflake rule scattered though 40+ books.
GW sells what people want. Saying GW sells too many Space Marines is like saying McDonalds sells too many hamburgers. People like Space Marines (40K and 30K). And, they like many varieties of Space Marines. GW also sells a ton of different other armies (Eldar, Orks, Necrons, etc.). With many varieties of each. And, in no way are those armies neglected, inferior, or lower quality. No way.
Now, GW is kind of guilty of neglecting armies, according to the forums. Namely, SoB and CSM. Oddly, the two most like Space Marines. Don't know why, except maybe these are seen as pale imitations. But, it really is hard to claim the 30K CSM armies are neglected. And, if the rumors about Sisters of Silence are true, that complaint goes away.
There is merit in this discussion. But, only as a notion. Not a policy or conspiracy.
Blacksails wrote: Which I'd support if I could download all the rules for everything for free. Rules only, no fluff, in a PDF or epub file as I see fit.
If not, having a book for every single sub faction of note is incredibly costly to collect for those with a desire to have a flexible army
If you want to have a flexible army; then figure out a way to make your army flexible. Don't just run "counts as" whenever a new book comes out.
If that's not what you're talking about, then fine--but that's the most common thing that I personally see. People complaining about how Marine players just hop from book to book as the power levels shift; because hey it's all power armor right?
or multiple armies,
That's a fair point.
and would be an absolute bitch to keep track of every single snowflake rule scattered though 40+ books.
It would be an absolute bitch to keep track of every single snowflake rule? Have you read most of the Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine book? They're USRs like Shrouded(but only for turn one ) or FNP or Twin-Linked with flame/melta weapons.
Saying the rules would need to be free(not something I'm necessarily opposed to) because of some perception that otherwise it becomes a mess for keeping track of things? That's ridiculous.
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pm713 wrote: Do people like Space Marines or do people like the favouritism Space Marines get?
Part of one, part of the other, part the simple fact that Space Marines are pretty damn easy to build an army of via the second hand market or cheaply via starter boxes.
First off some Armies do completely get neglected. Orks almost literally exist as punching bags for other Armies -probably space marines.
Literally try to win a game as Orks against a SM army say Battle Company. Dark Eldar and Astra Militarium are jokes as well.
Also do people really genuinely like Space Marines over everything else or is it because of GW's propaganda and favoritism towards them? If they pushed say Skitaari or Dark Eldar as much as Space Marines who is to say they wouldn't be as popular?
Kanluwen wrote: If you want to have a flexible army; then figure out a way to make your army flexible. Don't just run "counts as" whenever a new book comes out.
If that's not what you're talking about, then fine--but that's the most common thing that I personally see. People complaining about how Marine players just hop from book to book as the power levels shift; because hey it's all power armor right?
If I have a custom regiment that can fight in style X and style Y based on my collection, but those styles are best represented by two different books (or more, if I have a large enough and versatile army) then I'd need to spring for each book instead of 1 with all those rules.
Which is the same as someone with a custom marine chapter who can easily play as BA, any vanilla chapter, or any other marine book because it literally is all power armour with imperial weapons, minus some exceptions that a skilled modeller could easily add in or magnetize as the need arose.
It would be an absolute bitch to keep track of every single snowflake rule? Have you read most of the Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine book? They're USRs like Shrouded(but only for turn one ) or FNP or Twin-Linked with flame/melta weapons.
Saying the rules would need to be free(not something I'm necessarily opposed to) because of some perception that otherwise it becomes a mess for keeping track of things? That's ridiculous.
Yes, it would be a mess, or at least more of a mess than having all those rules in a single, easy to search and thumb through book.
At least a bunch of free PDFs means I don't have to buy every single book if I ever want to know a rule off hand.
Kanluwen wrote: If you want to have a flexible army; then figure out a way to make your army flexible. Don't just run "counts as" whenever a new book comes out.
If that's not what you're talking about, then fine--but that's the most common thing that I personally see. People complaining about how Marine players just hop from book to book as the power levels shift; because hey it's all power armor right?
If I have a custom regiment that can fight in style X and style Y based on my collection, but those styles are best represented by two different books (or more, if I have a large enough and versatile army) then I'd need to spring for each book instead of 1 with all those rules.
Then buy those two different books. Nobody told you to write your own fluff about how your regiment is super good at something which would require you to buy two different books.
Which is the same as someone with a custom marine chapter who can easily play as BA, any vanilla chapter, or any other marine book because it literally is all power armour with imperial weapons, minus some exceptions that a skilled modeller could easily add in or magnetize as the need arose.
Which is dumb there too. If you want to play a "custom Marine Chapter that can easily play as BA, any vanilla chapter, or any other marine book"? Great. You have to buy the books. Don't like it? Then commit to an army and play it.
It would be an absolute bitch to keep track of every single snowflake rule? Have you read most of the Chapter Tactics in the Space Marine book? They're USRs like Shrouded(but only for turn one ) or FNP or Twin-Linked with flame/melta weapons.
Saying the rules would need to be free(not something I'm necessarily opposed to) because of some perception that otherwise it becomes a mess for keeping track of things? That's ridiculous.
Yes, it would be a mess, or at least more of a mess than having all those rules in a single, easy to search and thumb through book.
At least a bunch of free PDFs means I don't have to buy every single book if I ever want to know a rule off hand.
You want to know an easy way to avoid having to buy every single book if you ever want to know a rule off hand?
Ask your opponent to see their book/PDF/whatever. Don't ask them to "explain the rule"; ask to see their book/PDF/whatever. They should, barring someone who is cheating or just not bringing their stuff with them and "playing from memory"(which you should never, ever, ever do), be more than willing to accommodate you wanting to educate yourself a bit.
That being said, I love marines and I can't help it. I have quite a few armies of marines.
Although, that might be due to xeno's armies only recently being given some love. I'd start eldar for example if they just updated their aspect warrior line.
Then buy those two different books. Nobody told you to write your own fluff about how your regiment is super good at something which would require you to buy two different books.
And my point is that instead of buying 2 books (or more), I'd only have to buy 1. Simple math. Yes, under your system I could buy the ones I need, but the point I'm making is that its far more cumbersome and more expensive than just having the rules in one place.
Which is dumb there too. If you want to play a "custom Marine Chapter that can easily play as BA, any vanilla chapter, or any other marine book"? Great. You have to buy the books. Don't like it? Then commit to an army and play it.
And again, simple math here, 1 books is less than 2 (or 3 for that matter, or even 4), which is less cumbersome, cheaper, and has all the information in one singular source. This has the added benefit for a company like GW to have all the updates applied at once for all those marine players, so we don't get the merry go round of having 1 marine book updated before the others with better point costs for the exact same units.
You want to know an easy way to avoid having to buy every single book if you ever want to know a rule off hand?
Ask your opponent to see their book/PDF/whatever. Don't ask them to "explain the rule"; ask to see their book/PDF/whatever. They should, barring someone who is cheating or just not bringing their stuff with them and "playing from memory"(which you should never, ever, ever do), be more than willing to accommodate you wanting to educate yourself a bit.
Typically, if I want to know something off hand, it'll be where I don't have an opponent around me with the exact army books I want to look at.
Really, all I'm saying is, take a page from how HH is doing army books. All marines in one (covering quite well every single legion), all Mechanicum in another, all regular humans and other auxiliaries in another. Great. Three books to cover off some two dozen armies/factions.
Having a full book for each marine/craftworld/legion/warband/regiment is massive overkill. Especially if it's only to point out their specific rules and special unit.
At least, at the current price points for books.
I could understand it if they were dataslates for $10 or less, as supplements to a larger, more general codex. Then, sure, you've got more than 1 sourcebook, but at least it didn't actually cost you as much as 2 books.
As it is, crunchwise, the different sub-armies aren't significantly different enough to justify a codex for each, imo.
Then buy those two different books. Nobody told you to write your own fluff about how your regiment is super good at something which would require you to buy two different books.
And my point is that instead of buying 2 books (or more), I'd only have to buy 1. Simple math. Yes, under your system I could buy the ones I need, but the point I'm making is that its far more cumbersome and more expensive than just having the rules in one place.
And the point I'm making is that it is just as cumbersome, if not more, to shove all of the subfactions for an army or anything tied to it into the same book. As it stands, I'm still pissed I have to pay $58 plus a supplement ($33 for Angels of Death or $70+ for Kauyon) for a Raven Guard army's rules when their unique detachment doesn't give me access to a hefty chunk of the book.
Which is dumb there too. If you want to play a "custom Marine Chapter that can easily play as BA, any vanilla chapter, or any other marine book"? Great. You have to buy the books. Don't like it? Then commit to an army and play it.
And again, simple math here, 1 books is less than 2 (or 3 for that matter, or even 4), which is less cumbersome, cheaper, and has all the information in one singular source. This has the added benefit for a company like GW to have all the updates applied at once for all those marine players, so we don't get the merry go round of having 1 marine book updated before the others with better point costs for the exact same units.
Right, we just get the merry go round of the book getting updated and then rotting until it gets updated again.
Your argument of "it's less cumbersome, cheaper, and has all the information in one singular source" is predisposed towards your own preconceptions that it would be done a certain way.
You want to know an easy way to avoid having to buy every single book if you ever want to know a rule off hand?
Ask your opponent to see their book/PDF/whatever. Don't ask them to "explain the rule"; ask to see their book/PDF/whatever. They should, barring someone who is cheating or just not bringing their stuff with them and "playing from memory"(which you should never, ever, ever do), be more than willing to accommodate you wanting to educate yourself a bit.
Typically, if I want to know something off hand, it'll be where I don't have an opponent around me with the exact army books I want to look at.
That's really not my or GW or anyone's problem but your own.
Really, all I'm saying is, take a page from how HH is doing army books. All marines in one (covering quite well every single legion), all Mechanicum in another, all regular humans and other auxiliaries in another. Great. Three books to cover off some two dozen armies/factions.
The impression I get from the FW thread and FW itself's product descriptions is that what you posted is not the case. Especially this little line:
Using this book, you can create army lists for any Space Marine Legion and engage them in the devastating conflicts of The Horus Heresy. This book is intended to be used alongside its companion book - The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions - in which you'll find special rules and wargear for individual Legions, as well as unique units and unit profiles for the mighty Primarchs.
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BossJakadakk wrote: Having a full book for each marine/craftworld/legion/warband/regiment is massive overkill. Especially if it's only to point out their specific rules and special unit.
Personally? The biggest downfall we have right now of the subfactions being shoved into their own book is the lack of special units for them. It's a huge pain in the ass, especially for someone who has actually read more than just the GW fluff about Raven Guard. The continued insistence on jump packs as their "signature unit" is a huge disappointment.
At least, at the current price points for books.
I could understand it if they were dataslates for $10 or less, as supplements to a larger, more general codex. Then, sure, you've got more than 1 sourcebook, but at least it didn't actually cost you as much as 2 books.
IMO, the ideal price point for something like this would be $25 tops. You'd be looking at a book that could be in the realm of 60-70 pages with background.
You could trim it down even further to $10-$15 if the fluff was put into its own book and sold separately; for those who were interested in it. Make it a nice glossy book with lots of art and stuff, rather than a mandatory purchase.
As it is, crunchwise, the different sub-armies aren't significantly different enough to justify a codex for each, imo.
As it stands now? Yeah. You're absolutely right.
But if you look back at some of the flavored lists from yore(the Cadian Shock Troops list and Ulthwe Strike Force from 13th Black Crusade), you could easily actually make subarmies with some crunch to them.
And the point I'm making is that it is just as cumbersome, if not more, to shove all of the subfactions for an army or anything tied to it into the same book. As it stands, I'm still pissed I have to pay $58 plus a supplement ($33 for Angels of Death or $70+ for Kauyon) for a Raven Guard army's rules when their unique detachment doesn't give me access to a hefty chunk of the book.
Or instead, you'd pay $60 to have all those rules, and all the other marine rules if you ever feel like using them. The advantage of one book is that you don't have to constantly re-print all the units and rules that are common among all the factions in every faction book. Unless you're proposing a supplement system where you buy the core book and then the faction book as a supplement.
Right, we just get the merry go round of the book getting updated and then rotting until it gets updated again.
...which is what happens anyways?
Your argument of "it's less cumbersome, cheaper, and has all the information in one singular source" is predisposed towards your own preconceptions that it would be done a certain way.
And yours isn't?
That's really not my or GW or anyone's problem but your own.
What a great counter-point!
Of course its my problem, hence why I'm trying to discuss a method in which it couldn't be a problem.
The impression I get from the FW thread and FW itself's product descriptions is that what you posted is not the case. Especially this little line:
Using this book, you can create army lists for any Space Marine Legion and engage them in the devastating conflicts of The Horus Heresy. This book is intended to be used alongside its companion book - The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions - in which you'll find special rules and wargear for individual Legions, as well as unique units and unit profiles for the mighty Primarchs.
Right, forgot the legions are split in two. Yeah, so all the core rules and units common among all the legions are found in one book, and all the legion specific rules and units/wargear are found in the other. If it makes you feel any better, I'm not overly fond of even that system, but its a world better than having to deal with theoretically 18 books for all the legions. The other books cover the factions entirely though.
*Edit* I realize we're getting off topic here. I'll drop it here.
Well let me put it this way, if you include the guy who showed up two hours late to our Campaign day there were exactly 2 armies out of 8 that were NOT Space Marines/CSM. Btw by some Miracle the Ork player won the day Mostly because the SM players and CSM players took elite/specialist armies, low model count and I spammed Ork boyz inside BWs.
pm713 wrote: Do people like Space Marines or do people like the favouritism Space Marines get?
people like space marines. Look go look at the "gateways" to 40k and you'll see space marines at the front and center. everyone who knows 40k knows Space Marines, people who develop a love for the other factions typically do so after already knowing 40k for a bit. so of course people play various flavors of space marine
And the point I'm making is that it is just as cumbersome, if not more, to shove all of the subfactions for an army or anything tied to it into the same book. As it stands, I'm still pissed I have to pay $58 plus a supplement ($33 for Angels of Death or $70+ for Kauyon) for a Raven Guard army's rules when their unique detachment doesn't give me access to a hefty chunk of the book.
Or instead, you'd pay $60 to have all those rules, and all the other marine rules if you ever feel like using them. The advantage of one book is that you don't have to constantly re-print all the units and rules that are common among all the factions in every faction book. Unless you're proposing a supplement system where you buy the core book and then the faction book as a supplement.
What "other Marine rules"? Oh, you mean Chapter Traits--aka "USRs by another name"?
You could literally remove every non-Ultramarines Chapter from Codex: Space Marines and there would be no difference.
Right, we just get the merry go round of the book getting updated and then rotting until it gets updated again.
...which is what happens anyways?
Your argument of "it's less cumbersome, cheaper, and has all the information in one singular source" is predisposed towards your own preconceptions that it would be done a certain way.
And yours isn't?
That's really not my or GW or anyone's problem but your own.
What a great counter-point!
Considering the bit I replied to was about how you only ever need to refer to a book when you're not playing a game? Yeah, it is.
If you want to refer to a book outside of a game; buy the book.
Of course its my problem, hence why I'm trying to discuss a method in which it couldn't be a problem.
Putting it bluntly, your problem is you want EVERYTHING in as few of places as possible. You're approaching it from that angle.
Me, personally? I don't want that. That is, in my opinion, what leads to bare plastic armies and "custom fluff" that puts C.S. Goto's trash to shame--why would anyone devote any time to actually working on their painting or taking the time to come up with a background for their army which is reasonable and doesn't make them Gotoisms if they're playing an army that has no real investment for them ruleswise?
Why bother with any of that when doing nothing lets you codex hop to the Next Great Thing?
I want a system that lets people pick the army they want to play and not have to get extraneous crap shoveled in there. There's a huge reason why I'm against the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus being rolled into one book, and it comes down to the simple fact that they don't need to be one army or one book.
The impression I get from the FW thread and FW itself's product descriptions is that what you posted is not the case. Especially this little line:
Using this book, you can create army lists for any Space Marine Legion and engage them in the devastating conflicts of The Horus Heresy. This book is intended to be used alongside its companion book - The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions - in which you'll find special rules and wargear for individual Legions, as well as unique units and unit profiles for the mighty Primarchs.
Right, forgot the legions are split in two. Yeah, so all the core rules and units common among all the legions are found in one book, and all the legion specific rules and units/wargear are found in the other. If it makes you feel any better, I'm not overly fond of even that system, but its a world better than having to deal with theoretically 18 books for all the legions. The other books cover the factions entirely though.
Is it really though? One of the biggest complaints about FW's rules--and even the $58 codices like Eldar and Marines--is the size of the books and the "cumbersomeness" of carrying them.
Whilst yes, there is a large quantity of sm players, that's what I started with. They are the core of this universe, because gw thinks that we 'umies want bigger 'umies to be the protagonists of the game. I do feel that they are trying to emphasize other armies with the start collecting bundles, though.
pm713 wrote: Do people like Space Marines or do people like the favouritism Space Marines get?
people like space marines. Look go look at the "gateways" to 40k and you'll see space marines at the front and center. everyone who knows 40k knows Space Marines, people who develop a love for the other factions typically do so after already knowing 40k for a bit. so of course people play various flavors of space marine
Or all the gateway armies are one army and other armies have bad models involved so nobody likes them to look at.
Me, personally? I don't want that. That is, in my opinion, what leads to bare plastic armies and "custom fluff" that puts C.S. Goto's trash to shame--why would anyone devote any time to actually working on their painting or taking the time to come up with a background for their army which is reasonable and doesn't make them Gotoisms if they're playing an army that has no real investment for them ruleswise?
Good god, this is the worst bit of nerd snobbery (combined with some pretty spectacular white knightery) I've read in a long time.
Heaven forbid people should want to use their imaginations to develop concepts you don't like. Here's the thing, not everybody's as full on intense about their Warhammer as you Kan, perhaps you need to take a breath?
But to combine that disdain with the idea that overpriced rules are somehow a good thing?
You were already on thin ice when the whole crux of your argument is that someone being annoyed that they have to purchase multiple books to realise the creative vision they have for their army is wrong because, well, people should have to pay a lot for their rules so they stay the course, apparently, but this has elevated things significantly. Bravo.
One of the reasons there's so many SM around is the fact that Sm is generally the starting army of most players. Every time someone asks 'I want to join the hobby, which army should I buy first?', most answers are Space Marines.
Me, personally? I don't want that. That is, in my opinion, what leads to bare plastic armies and "custom fluff" that puts C.S. Goto's trash to shame--why would anyone devote any time to actually working on their painting or taking the time to come up with a background for their army which is reasonable and doesn't make them Gotoisms if they're playing an army that has no real investment for them ruleswise?
Good god, this is the worst bit of nerd snobbery (combined with some pretty spectacular white knightery) I've read in a long time.
Is it nerd snobbery? Sure. White knightery? Yeah, compared to the bilious trash you usually post certainly.
Heaven forbid people should want to use their imaginations to develop concepts you don't like. Here's the thing, not everybody's as full on intense about their Warhammer as you Kan, perhaps you need to take a breath?
Sorry, where did I say that people shouldn't use their imaginations to develop concepts? That's a GOOD thing.
What isn't a good thing is people who attempt to justify their bare plastic with grandiose schemes of amazing paint jobs later on and talking about how their army is just like <insert reference here> but better at <insert random thing here>, and because of that they use either <insert overpowered book here> or <insert most recent overpowered book here>. Or when those same people come up with the most ridiculously Mary Sue fiction for their Space Marines imaginable where it's blatantly obvious from the beginning that the goal is to make a super generic army that can utilize any book with power armored units.
If someone wants to come up with a background for their army? More power to them. But it isn't something they need to be talking about while we play, nor is it something that they should be overly defensive about when they get called out on for their choices of army templates.
But to combine that disdain with the idea that overpriced rules are somehow a good thing?
Yeah...I didn't ever say that "overpriced rules are somehow a good thing". Read what I posted and reply to that or don't reply at all.
You were already on thin ice when the whole crux of your argument is that someone being annoyed that they have to purchase multiple books to realise the creative vision they have for their army is wrong because, well, people should have to pay a lot for their rules so they stay the course, apparently, but this has elevated things significantly. Bravo.
Did you even read what I replied to? Because Blacksails wasn't talking about "needing to purchase multiple books to realize creative vision", but rather about it being "inconvenient" to purchase multiple books because hey sometimes you want to have reference material.
Which, by the by, is absolutely a valid concern but if you feel the urge to reference something consistently enough that you feel you need the book...maybe buy the book?
Me, personally? I don't want that. That is, in my opinion, what leads to bare plastic armies and "custom fluff" that puts C.S. Goto's trash to shame--why would anyone devote any time to actually working on their painting or taking the time to come up with a background for their army which is reasonable and doesn't make them Gotoisms if they're playing an army that has no real investment for them ruleswise?
Good god, this is the worst bit of nerd snobbery (combined with some pretty spectacular white knightery) I've read in a long time.
Is it nerd snobbery? Sure.
White knightery? Yeah, compared to the bilious trash you usually post certainly.
Straight in with a Rule 1 at the start. Well done old chap.
Remind me again, which one of us places higher in the annual "who's posts got the most exalts" list?
Heaven forbid people should want to use their imaginations to develop concepts you don't like. Here's the thing, not everybody's as full on intense about their Warhammer as you Kan, perhaps you need to take a breath?
Sorry, where did I say that people shouldn't use their imaginations to develop concepts? That's a GOOD thing.
What isn't a good thing is people who attempt to justify their bare plastic with grandiose schemes of amazing paint jobs later on and talking about how their army is just like <insert reference here> but better at <insert random thing here>, and because of that they use either <insert overpowered book here> or <insert most recent overpowered book here>. Or when those same people come up with the most ridiculously Mary Sue fiction for their Space Marines imaginable where it's blatantly obvious from the beginning that the goal is to make a super generic army that can utilize any book with power armored units.
If someone wants to come up with a background for their army? More power to them. But it isn't something they need to be talking about while we play, nor is it something that they should be overly defensive about when they get called out on for their choices of army templates.
So it's a good thing as long as you approve of their concept and their reasons for doing it. Gotcha.
But to combine that disdain with the idea that overpriced rules are somehow a good thing?
Yeah...I didn't ever say that "overpriced rules are somehow a good thing". Read what I posted and reply to that or don't reply at all.
I did.
You said that an investment in rules would encourage people to put time and effort into painting and background and it would discourage "Goto" background and grey plastic. If that's the case, then surely, by your own logic, a greater investment would inspire greater devotion? Therefore, you ,just think expensive rules are a positive thing.
You were already on thin ice when the whole crux of your argument is that someone being annoyed that they have to purchase multiple books to realise the creative vision they have for their army is wrong because, well, people should have to pay a lot for their rules so they stay the course, apparently, but this has elevated things significantly. Bravo.
Did you even read what I replied to? Because Blacksails wasn't talking about "needing to purchase multiple books to realize creative vision", but rather about it being "inconvenient" to purchase multiple books because hey sometimes you want to have reference material.
Which, by the by, is absolutely a valid concern but if you feel the urge to reference something consistently enough that you feel you need the book...maybe buy the book?
No he wasn't. He was talking about the need to buy multiple books to best represent differing play styles of the same collection, in relation to a point made about how every single chapter etc could have its own sub codex.
Basically, he lemented the fragmentation of the books (actual or theoretical) resulting in the need for multiple purchases, you then jumped down his throat with a response which was broadly "just buy the books and STFU, nobody forced you to be creative and enthusiastic."
Maybe time to start reading other people's posts and spend less time telling them to read yours?
At our local shop we seem to have a fair mix of armies. There are a couple Nid players, a couple CSMs, a guy who runs Guard, a Necron fanatic, and at least one Eldar and one Tau. As for Loyalist Marines: I know of a couple Space Wolves, a Blood Angel, a Dark Angel or two (myself being one of them), and one plain Space Marine player. I'd have to estimate the ratio of Marines to Xeno/Chaos is about 50/50.
As for the number of Marine Codices, I feel like each chapter has enough unique strengths, weaknesses, and quirks to justify each one having its own codex. Take the Dark Angels' proclivity toward Plasma along with the Ravenwing-Deathwing Deep Strike synergies that come from the new Adeptus Astartes Formations.
Overall, I'd have to say I'm pretty pleased...
Often times when a 40k player who owns a Space Marine army decides to try something different with a new army he starts another "different" SM army. (Say Dark Angels player decides to start a Grey Knights Army [Completely different!]) You almost never to never see rarer armies like Skitaari, Harlequins, Dark Eldar... etc
Doesn't necessarily seem to hold true for my area. I know a player who started out Blood Angels who eventually sold his army and went full Necrons. The when he wanted a 2ndary army he opted for Orks. Another player runs Nids and Tau. I personally just started collecting Tau as a second army to my Dark Angels.
People know 40k because the marines are so iconic, so the majority of them enter the game buying some kind of space marine.
Sales of Space Marines become popular with new players, making GW think that Marines are what draws players in and increases marine exposure to the general public
Rinse and repeat.
I've known people that actually know individual chapter names of space marines, but didn't know that Imperial Guard or Eldar existed in the game (they thought the Tau was the high-tech magic race because they looked like the protoss).
I think the issue is that other factions and sub-factions deserve greater representation. There are so few Space Marines relative to anything else in the fiction, however distinctive, flexible, or awesome as they maybe there are far more interesting and varied subfaction even within the Imperium without considering other races. Even if you distill all the other Imperial sub-factions to the most elite elements they still out number Space Marines and afford a much greater level of distinctiveness.
DorianGray wrote: First off some Armies do completely get neglected. Orks almost literally exist as punching bags for other Armies -probably space marines.
Literally try to win a game as Orks against a SM army say Battle Company. Dark Eldar and Astra Militarium are jokes as well.
Also do people really genuinely like Space Marines over everything else or is it because of GW's propaganda and favoritism towards them? If they pushed say Skitaari or Dark Eldar as much as Space Marines who is to say they wouldn't be as popular?
Orks are not neglected. They have everything from troops to fliers to super-heavies. Under-powered? Probably. But, not neglected.
People really genuinely like Space Marines. Over everything else. Even people who don't like them, secretly like them. GW REALLY likes them. Their own fully developed, fully supported Intellectual Property that makes tons of money. Still very cool after 30 years. Still fun to build and paint. Try to imagine 40K without Space Marines. Right, you can't. So, give up trying before you hurt yourself. Forget I even suggested it! Now, try imagining 40K without Dark Eldar. In fact, try to imagine the last time you even saw a Dark Eldar army. Try to imagine explaining how to even spell "Skitaari." I know, right! It can't be done.
If GW can make a whole other game called 30K that is just Space Marines, it ain't because they forced customers to like Space Marines.
I think the "neglect" most non-marine armies get isn't a case of individual units or availability of unit types but a case of no-one thinking about how they fit together. Just adding one more thing and another and another to an army doesn't fix the army, make it cohesively representative, or fun.
The fandom of Space Marines is strong but there is a certain amount of chicken and egg and self fulfilling prophecies where by the strong support they get is a major component for why they're popular. In the past when other factions had as much or more support those factions were more proportionately represented by the player base.
i voted for "just the right amount"...
i have always been a fan of Marines, first and foremost, since Rogue Trader was a new release...
i bought Orks, Eldar, Guard, and 'Nids when they were all in their first incarnations, but none of them captured my imagination, or made me want to paint, as much as Marines...
nowadays, i buy the occasional Ork, 'Nids, maybe an Eldar or Dark Eldar model, some Guard, but rarely paint one...
i buy loads of Tau and Mechanicum, and enjoy painting them, but not nearly as much as Marines...
the variety of cool background and art for Marines means that i could just paint Marines for the rest of my life, and still not cover all of the ideas that are floating around in my head...
i could probably say the same for a lot of the other factions, if they inspired me as much as Marines, but they don't...
the armor is a constant challenge to paint better, and the different ways that they can be approached is pretty much limitless...
bolters, chainswords, jump packs, assault cannons, heavy flamers, combi-weapons, and more, all inspire me way more than shuriken catapults or fleshborers...
Tau and Ad-Mech are an easy second, with Orks third, and the rest a distant fourth as far as getting my attention...
in the Second Edition days of 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz there was some great art and fluff, but it still couldn't get me as fired up as Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine, or the original Space Wolves Codex did...
i can honestly say that i love pretty much everything about the 40K universe, but Marines have always been my favorite...
30 years on, and the models are better than ever, so i could not be happier
DorianGray wrote: First off some Armies do completely get neglected. Orks almost literally exist as punching bags for other Armies -probably space marines.
Literally try to win a game as Orks against a SM army say Battle Company. Dark Eldar and Astra Militarium are jokes as well.
Also do people really genuinely like Space Marines over everything else or is it because of GW's propaganda and favoritism towards them? If they pushed say Skitaari or Dark Eldar as much as Space Marines who is to say they wouldn't be as popular?
Orks are not neglected. They have everything from troops to fliers to super-heavies. Under-powered? Probably. But, not neglected.
People really genuinely like Space Marines. Over everything else. Even people who don't like them, secretly like them. GW REALLY likes them. Their own fully developed, fully supported Intellectual Property that makes tons of money. Still very cool after 30 years. Still fun to build and paint. Try to imagine 40K without Space Marines. Right, you can't. So, give up trying before you hurt yourself. Forget I even suggested it! Now, try imagining 40K without Dark Eldar. In fact, try to imagine the last time you even saw a Dark Eldar army. Try to imagine explaining how to even spell "Skitaari." I know, right! It can't be done.
If GW can make a whole other game called 30K that is just Space Marines, it ain't because they forced customers to like Space Marines.
The gorkanought and morkanought are not super heavies.
DorianGray wrote: First off some Armies do completely get neglected. Orks almost literally exist as punching bags for other Armies -probably space marines.
Literally try to win a game as Orks against a SM army say Battle Company. Dark Eldar and Astra Militarium are jokes as well.
Also do people really genuinely like Space Marines over everything else or is it because of GW's propaganda and favoritism towards them? If they pushed say Skitaari or Dark Eldar as much as Space Marines who is to say they wouldn't be as popular?
Orks are not neglected. They have everything from troops to fliers to super-heavies. Under-powered? Probably. But, not neglected.
People really genuinely like Space Marines. Over everything else. Even people who don't like them, secretly like them. GW REALLY likes them. Their own fully developed, fully supported Intellectual Property that makes tons of money. Still very cool after 30 years. Still fun to build and paint. Try to imagine 40K without Space Marines. Right, you can't. So, give up trying before you hurt yourself. Forget I even suggested it! Now, try imagining 40K without Dark Eldar. In fact, try to imagine the last time you even saw a Dark Eldar army. Try to imagine explaining how to even spell "Skitaari." I know, right! It can't be done.
If GW can make a whole other game called 30K that is just Space Marines, it ain't because they forced customers to like Space Marines.
The gorkanought and morkanought are not super heavies.
DorianGray wrote: First off some Armies do completely get neglected. Orks almost literally exist as punching bags for other Armies -probably space marines.
Literally try to win a game as Orks against a SM army say Battle Company. Dark Eldar and Astra Militarium are jokes as well.
Also do people really genuinely like Space Marines over everything else or is it because of GW's propaganda and favoritism towards them? If they pushed say Skitaari or Dark Eldar as much as Space Marines who is to say they wouldn't be as popular?
Orks are not neglected. They have everything from troops to fliers to super-heavies. Under-powered? Probably. But, not neglected.
People really genuinely like Space Marines. Over everything else. Even people who don't like them, secretly like them. GW REALLY likes them. Their own fully developed, fully supported Intellectual Property that makes tons of money. Still very cool after 30 years. Still fun to build and paint. Try to imagine 40K without Space Marines. Right, you can't. So, give up trying before you hurt yourself. Forget I even suggested it! Now, try imagining 40K without Dark Eldar. In fact, try to imagine the last time you even saw a Dark Eldar army. Try to imagine explaining how to even spell "Skitaari." I know, right! It can't be done.
If GW can make a whole other game called 30K that is just Space Marines, it ain't because they forced customers to like Space Marines.
The gorkanought and morkanought are not super heavies.
Stompas of all variations are...
True enough, but their codex ones are not great at all.
TwilightFox wrote: At our local shop we seem to have a fair mix of armies. There are a couple Nid players, a couple CSMs, a guy who runs Guard, a Necron fanatic, and at least one Eldar and one Tau. As for Loyalist Marines: I know of a couple Space Wolves, a Blood Angel, a Dark Angel or two (myself being one of them), and one plain Space Marine player. I'd have to estimate the ratio of Marines to Xeno/Chaos is about 50/50.
In my group it's 0/100. My partner's into Necrons, my roommate collects Tau and Chaos, and I'm thinking of getting back into 40k with a small FSE list.
Do Chaos Marines count? My roommate's been looking at those.
I've considered collecting marines to use as the frightening villains they are -- preferably all-beaky Raven Guard -- but the number of 40k players who unironically see them as heroes (and are IRL bigoted towards "xenos" players) kind of skeeves me out and puts me off that idea.
Isn't the Stompa a super-heavy? And, aren't there rules for Gargants, even if no models. Plus, do Space Marines have super heavies? I don't really know.
jah-joshua wrote: i voted for "just the right amount"...
i have always been a fan of Marines, first and foremost, since Rogue Trader was a new release...
i bought Orks, Eldar, Guard, and 'Nids when they were all in their first incarnations, but none of them captured my imagination, or made me want to paint, as much as Marines...
nowadays, i buy the occasional Ork, 'Nids, maybe an Eldar or Dark Eldar model, some Guard, but rarely paint one...
i buy loads of Tau and Mechanicum, and enjoy painting them, but not nearly as much as Marines...
the variety of cool background and art for Marines means that i could just paint Marines for the rest of my life, and still not cover all of the ideas that are floating around in my head...
i could probably say the same for a lot of the other factions, if they inspired me as much as Marines, but they don't...
the armor is a constant challenge to paint better, and the different ways that they can be approached is pretty much limitless...
bolters, chainswords, jump packs, assault cannons, heavy flamers, combi-weapons, and more, all inspire me way more than shuriken catapults or fleshborers...
Tau and Ad-Mech are an easy second, with Orks third, and the rest a distant fourth as far as getting my attention...
in the Second Edition days of 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz there was some great art and fluff, but it still couldn't get me as fired up as Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine, or the original Space Wolves Codex did...
i can honestly say that i love pretty much everything about the 40K universe, but Marines have always been my favorite...
30 years on, and the models are better than ever, so i could not be happier
cheers
jah
Dude you're a total fanboy. When viewed objectively there are far too many Space Marines (fanboys). Most games are Space Marines vs Space Marines. GW made 30k where literally all the factions are SPACE MARINES. It is harmful for the hobby and annoying for the Space Marine player themselves that they can't find non-power armour opponents.
With some races in the gutter like Orks and Dark Eldar with their god-awful rules, there's yet another Space Marine Codex (deathwatch) coming out bringing up the total of SM codexes to... how many now?
Honestly why can't the IG get a different Codex for Cadians, Vostroyans, Catachans... etc? Because that is essentially what the Space Marine player get now. They get one for every single chapter even when Guard are much more varied in culture and fighting and outnumbered Space Marines 1 million to 1, do 100% more of the fighting across the entire imperium, and are fundamentally more important to the survival of the IoM than sometime rebellious Space Marines.
There's wolf space Marines, Vampire Space Marines, Monk space Marines, Robot Space Marines, magic super Space marines, Deutschritter Space Marines, Smurf Space Marines, Evil Space Marines, Egypt Space Marines, smelling space Marines... you could continue all day.
I don't think it's a problem that there are all those kinds of space Marines, the sad thing is that other factions don't have this kind of variety and never will get it. If we had rules for all 8 factions of Orks, or every Eldar craftworld the amount of Space Marines wasn't that obvious. You could reduce the imperium to: Male Space Marines, Female Space Marines, Imperial Guard and mechanicum and with that humans would still have more different armies than any Xenos faction right now.
Nevertheless I wouldn't want to do away with any army or subfaction. CSM lost half of their Legions 3 editions ago and people are still crying about that .
Gamgee wrote: The gorkanought and morkanought are not super heavies.
Stompa that keeps regenerating itself is not super heavy? Could swear it read super heavy last time I opened up my codex. Albeit it's been a while since I threw 7th ed basically to trashbin in favour of superior rules but I'm FAIRLY sure it's super heavy.
OP :
I agree. I find far too many marines kicking about. I understand fully that 40k is marketed with them at the center as the heroes of the story, and lets face it, they are pretty badass in a lot of ways.
However, this does as mentioned leave a lot to be desired in terms of match up. I personally hate playing Marine on marine ( Unless its CSM and loyalist , that's still different and very thematic ) .
This lack of diversity even got under my skin enough at my local store that I even went so far as to purposely research and try to get into alternative Xenos races and start armies of them, JUST so there would be some variety. As a result, I have had at some point or another to my detriment, every army in 40k bar Sisters.
I fully understand that collecting other armies you aren't as nuts about and forcing the play is stupid, but that's honestly the point I was driven to just to see some variety in the local tournaments which were about 70-80% marine and imperial guard dominated, meaning i could go entire tournaments playing no one but other marines. Got old real fast.
jah-joshua wrote: i voted for "just the right amount"...
i have always been a fan of Marines, first and foremost, since Rogue Trader was a new release...
i bought Orks, Eldar, Guard, and 'Nids when they were all in their first incarnations, but none of them captured my imagination, or made me want to paint, as much as Marines...
nowadays, i buy the occasional Ork, 'Nids, maybe an Eldar or Dark Eldar model, some Guard, but rarely paint one...
i buy loads of Tau and Mechanicum, and enjoy painting them, but not nearly as much as Marines...
the variety of cool background and art for Marines means that i could just paint Marines for the rest of my life, and still not cover all of the ideas that are floating around in my head...
i could probably say the same for a lot of the other factions, if they inspired me as much as Marines, but they don't...
the armor is a constant challenge to paint better, and the different ways that they can be approached is pretty much limitless...
bolters, chainswords, jump packs, assault cannons, heavy flamers, combi-weapons, and more, all inspire me way more than shuriken catapults or fleshborers...
Tau and Ad-Mech are an easy second, with Orks third, and the rest a distant fourth as far as getting my attention...
in the Second Edition days of 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz there was some great art and fluff, but it still couldn't get me as fired up as Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine, or the original Space Wolves Codex did...
i can honestly say that i love pretty much everything about the 40K universe, but Marines have always been my favorite...
30 years on, and the models are better than ever, so i could not be happier
cheers
jah
Dude you're a total fanboy. When viewed objectively there are far too many Space Marines (fanboys). Most games are Space Marines vs Space Marines. GW made 30k where literally all the factions are SPACE MARINES. It is harmful for the hobby and annoying for the Space Marine player themselves that they can't find non-power armour opponents.
With some races in the gutter like Orks and Dark Eldar with their god-awful rules, there's yet another Space Marine Codex (deathwatch) coming out bringing up the total of SM codexes to... how many now?
Honestly why can't the IG get a different Codex for Cadians, Vostroyans, Catachans... etc? Because that is essentially what the Space Marine player get now. They get one for every single chapter even when Guard are much more varied in culture and fighting and outnumbered Space Marines 1 million to 1, do 100% more of the fighting across the entire imperium, and are fundamentally more important to the survival of the IoM than sometime rebellious Space Marines.
seriously, that's your level of discourse, name calling???
if you are going to address me, have some respect and common decency...
don't act like i am responsible for GW's focus on Marines...
i buy every Codex for every army, and always have...
i bought the Catachan book, and never wanted to see it get dropped...
i collected Tallarn, Catachans, Steel Legion, and plenty more Guard models...
i buy all the Xenos books, and whichever models catch my fancy...
i don't want anyone to have bad rules, or a lack of models, so i do my part to support all factions...
i don't play, so that Marine on Marine action is not something that i promote...
outside of 30K, Imperial factions fighting each other doesn't even make sense fluff-wise, unless you are playing Dark Mechanicum or Renegade Guard...
i don't know what your problem is, but you don't know what you are talking about, calling me a Fanboy...
my most recent purchases include the Guard Tech-Priest, Ad-Mech Dominus, Eversor and Vindicare Assassins, Tau Commander and Ethereal box, an AoS Orc Megaboss, and Silver Tower...
not to mention all of the non-GW minis i have purchased over the past few months...
if i really were a Fanboy, i wouldn't have passed on all of the Finecast Marine releases, but i did, rather than support a material that i don't want to see GW continue using...
it sucks not to own those badass Captains, or Arjac, but i'm no hypocrite, so i don't buy crappy material just because i prefer painting Marines...
there is not a single Finecast mini in my collection, which means i miss out on a lot of cool sculpts :(
i would love to see every army get equal treatment...
i would also love to see rules that make everybody happy...
i would love to get a commission to paint a Death Jester, or a Shadowseer...
i would love to see a return of the Ork Clans as a big deal...
unfortunately, i'm not in charge of GW...
i'd sure do a lot of things differently if i were
Well, do we have a Marine infestation at my club?
every player there baring myself, another guard player, 2 Tau players and an Eldar player plays Marines. And this is a club with close to a hundred members, almost all of whom play 40K.
So yes, there are far too many Marine players, although this is, I feel, a result of GW both pushing Marines and constantly promoting them above all else, and the design team basically giving marines EVERYTHING. All te fancy new toys? Space Marines. Tactical flexibility? Marines. Want to run mechanised infantry? Marines. Want to drop pod in? Marines. Want psykers? Marines. Want to out-tank a Guard player? marines.
Seriously GW, stop it. We know that you fan-[word for self pleasuring] over Marines but there is no need to take your fetish and force it down our throats until we choke. What about the other armies? Right now everything the guard do - baring the most ineffective tactic of infantry horde - can be done by the Marines but better. GW need to ake up and remember that other Imperial armies do exist beyond 'flavour of marine X'.
One side-effect of too many marines is everyone designs their armies around killing space marines /MEQs so some weapon options are completely ignored or never used.
The problem is not that too many people play space marines.
The problem is that absent a couple instances of other faction love (eeeeveryone loves to point out the last two Eldar codeces, as if they have gotten more than the love of just one balance-blind rules writer for the last couple years) almost everything GW puts out is aimed at making space marines as powerful and fluff-accurate as possible.
Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.
When 75% of the effort put into the game goes towards one faction, 75% of the playerbase will only care about that faction. And 40ks rules, fluff, novels, games and video game tie-ins definitely reflect that with regard to the ol' marty stues.
Here is the thing, it seems like people like to be upset about things in this hobby. As a new player, I've learned no matter what army you choose, some people will have an issue with it. Too many people play space marines? I constantly hear from people how over powered the Necrons, Tau, and Eldar are, then I hear from the same people that the Orks, and Dark Eldar are massively under powered. For me, it seems like SM is the simplest army to understand for new players. They have guns, tanks, are easy to paint, have a niche(werewolves, vampires, repressed secretive Knights), and have a middle ground for model count. As a new player, big deterrent for me to play Eldar is learning all the stuff for them, they're super specialized and to me, seem like a second army to collect. It's only a matter of time before people get annoyed and don't want people playing AdMech/Skitaari because people are already starting in on the War Convocation. So, do a lot of people play SM? Yes, but from what I've seen they have second armies of another kind. The Space Marines are the "heroes", using the term loosely, of the story, and they offer a great deal of player expression for new players that maybe people more experienced in lore might find in the Tau or Necrons.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, do we have a Marine infestation at my club?
every player there baring myself, another guard player, 2 Tau players and an Eldar player plays Marines. And this is a club with close to a hundred members, almost all of whom play 40K.
So yes, there are far too many Marine players, although this is, I feel, a result of GW both pushing Marines and constantly promoting them above all else, and the design team basically giving marines EVERYTHING. All te fancy new toys? Space Marines. Tactical flexibility? Marines. Want to run mechanised infantry? Marines. Want to drop pod in? Marines. Want psykers? Marines. Want to out-tank a Guard player? marines.
Seriously GW, stop it. We know that you fan-[word for self pleasuring] over Marines but there is no need to take your fetish and force it down our throats until we choke. What about the other armies? Right now everything the guard do - baring the most ineffective tactic of infantry horde - can be done by the Marines but better. GW need to ake up and remember that other Imperial armies do exist beyond 'flavour of marine X'.
GW sells what people buy. Especially in the age when their profits are not skyrocketing up(less than several % profit increases is bad in western economy) they cannot AFFORD to release anything but what sells for sure. They sure as hell cannot afford to not release more of print money buttons...
HCMistborn wrote: Here is the thing, it seems like people like to be upset about things in this hobby. As a new player, I've learned no matter what army you choose, some people will have an issue with it. Too many people play space marines? I constantly hear from people how over powered the Necrons, Tau, and Eldar are, then I hear from the same people that the Orks, and Dark Eldar are massively under powered. For me, it seems like SM is the simplest army to understand for new players. They have guns, tanks, are easy to paint, have a niche(werewolves, vampires, repressed secretive Knights), and have a middle ground for model count. As a new player, big deterrent for me to play Eldar is learning all the stuff for them, they're super specialized and to me, seem like a second army to collect. It's only a matter of time before people get annoyed and don't want people playing AdMech/Skitaari because people are already starting in on the War Convocation. So, do a lot of people play SM? Yes, but from what I've seen they have second armies of another kind. The Space Marines are the "heroes", using the term loosely, of the story, and they offer a great deal of player expression for new players that maybe people more experienced in lore might find in the Tau or Necrons.
Learning Eldar was much easier for me than learning Space Marines. Starting out, I had no idea what weapons were for what purpose, and there are so many options for SM units I felt overwhelmed. Then I grab some Eldar, they have options yeah, but I could understand the upgrades, they were clear to me. For the most part, I didn't need to worry about upgrades anyway. Mostly was foot slogging Dire Avengers, other aspect warriors and psykers my first several games with Eldar.
Space Marines are going to be my 3rd army, now that I have a much better understanding of what's going on in game. And I'm kind of annoyed at myself for starting an SM army, just because of how popular they are, but I got into Raven Guard and now I can't shake it.
I have no issue with Space Marines being the bread and butter of GW sales. While I don't see myself returning to modern 40K anytime soon - the overwhelming (nearly comical) number of Imperial books/codices/armies is definitely a huge turn off.
I'm sure the justification is more sales, but GW could do just as well with fewer, better thought out books/codices. It's an insult to gamers that you need to buy an entirely separate book for each branch of an army. That...my friends, is a simple money grab.
In my previous group I was the only (!!) non-Marine player with my Guard. I started to hate Marines and I vowed to myself that I'll never play them.
In my current group the Marines are still in majority, but there also others so it is not that bad.
And to the topic, yes, I think that GW is being Marine-centric. Still I understand that Marines are easiest army to learn, which means that newbies are more likely to pick up them over the others and they are also making up the absolute majority of sales, but that doesn't mean that other factions have to be neglected and looked over like they are.
Just look at the rules updates and new model releases. Half of it are for Marines and the rest for the remaining factions.
Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.
Is it a "no other factions allowed" game or are there other races? Make your mind up.
I've not seen them complain about anything that isn't a phosphex mortar which is pretty cheesy.
the_scotsman wrote: Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.
I'm not sure who you've been speaking to, but I've never met a 30k player who thinks 30k should ONLY be Marine on Marine action. Solar Auxilla, Mechanicus, and Militia are all cool and valued parts of 30k, and the ready access of all factions to roughly the same resources makes the game far more balanced. As a Marine player of 30k, I've never found anything the Solar Auxilla or Militia can use that is unfair, and whilst I'll admit that Mechanium automata are certainly very powerful to an unprepared opponent, they are by no means unfair at all. In fact, the only thing I've found that tickled me the wrong way was actually a Marine thing (the instant killing hand flamers).
Next time, when you generalise, make sure something backs it up.
Hawky wrote: I understand that Marines are easiest army to learn
No, they aren't. They have the most models, the most psychic powers, and a ton of customization options, and the stats for most of their weapons are in a separate book from their codex. Just as a point of reference, in the premade Warzone Damocles missions, I played Shadow Force Solaq ineffectively because I couldn't grasp everything all at once. My partner observed, unprompted, that they have way too many special rules.
The easiest faction to start with, bar none, is Necrons. They have no psychic powers, a low model count, fewer customization options, and extremely survivable troops, and their basic weapons are good against both tanks and infantry. They're as forgiving to paint as they are to field in a game ... and as my partner observed, "everything they have is [bullgak]." As in OP.
I have limited experience with other factions, but I'd tentatively place AdMech and Tau as the second and third easiest. Both are tough and shooty and hard to go wrong with, and have fewer models and no psychic powers. The most complicated things for each are their force-multiplier techs, like luminagen, markerlights, and Doctrina Imperatives.
Remember how excited everyone was when GWfinally made AdMech models and a Harlequin faction? The 40k galaxy is so big and wondrous, and yet it seems like they're squandering all their design space and weekly releases on Space Marines. This complicates things for Space Marine players, by increasing their faction's complexity to potentially unmanageable levels (how many books and card decks do you need to buy now???). Worse, when you've spent all your time modelling, playing against, and learning Space Marines, the "xenos" factions -- which have their clear and obvious strengths concentrated into a handful of models and special rules -- can seem completely unfair to play against.
Space Marines, of course, have their own ridiculous bullgak, and hard counters to pretty much everything. But that's normal, while this stuff is strange and unexpected. It needs to be nerfed so that the Emperor's Finest can triumph!
Hawky wrote: I understand that Marines are easiest army to learn
No, they aren't. They have the most models, the most psychic powers, and a ton of customization options, and the stats for most of their weapons are in a separate book from their codex. Just as a point of reference, in the premade Warzone Damocles missions, I played Shadow Force Solaq ineffectively because I couldn't grasp everything all at once. My partner observed, unprompted, that they have way too many special rules.
The easiest faction to start with, bar none, is Necrons. They have no psychic powers, a low model count, fewer customization options, and extremely survivable troops, and their basic weapons are good against both tanks and infantry. They're as forgiving to paint as they are to field in a game ... and as my partner observed, "everything they have is [bullgak]." As in OP.
I have limited experience with other factions, but I'd tentatively place AdMech and Tau as the second and third easiest. Both are tough and shooty and hard to go wrong with, and have fewer models and no psychic powers. The most complicated things for each are their force-multiplier techs, like luminagen, markerlights, and Doctrina Imperatives.
Remember how excited everyone was when GWfinally made AdMech models and a Harlequin faction? The 40k galaxy is so big and wondrous, and yet it seems like they're squandering all their design space and weekly releases on Space Marines. This complicates things for Space Marine players, by increasing their faction's complexity to potentially unmanageable levels (how many books and card decks do you need to buy now???). Worse, when you've spent all your time modelling, playing against, and learning Space Marines, the "xenos" factions -- which have their clear and obvious strengths concentrated into a handful of models and special rules -- can seem completely unfair to play against.
Space Marines, of course, have their own ridiculous bullgak, and hard counters to pretty much everything. But that's normal, while this stuff is strange and unexpected. It needs to be nerfed so that the Emperor's Finest can triumph!
This situation is unfair to everyone.
I can't think of a single weapon in the Marine book where they don't have a weapon profile in their book.
Really I'd still say Marines are the best army to start with.
the_scotsman wrote: Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.
I'm not sure who you've been speaking to, but I've never met a 30k player who thinks 30k should ONLY be Marine on Marine action. Solar Auxilla, Mechanicus, and Militia are all cool and valued parts of 30k, and the ready access of all factions to roughly the same resources makes the game far more balanced.
As a Marine player of 30k, I've never found anything the Solar Auxilla or Militia can use that is unfair, and whilst I'll admit that Mechanium automata are certainly very powerful to an unprepared opponent, they are by no means unfair at all.
In fact, the only thing I've found that tickled me the wrong way was actually a Marine thing (the instant killing hand flamers).
Next time, when you generalise, make sure something backs it up.
Who in the world plays 30k without intending to play one of the space marine factions involved in that storyline?! 30k is literally all about SMs and Primarchs have you read the Horus heresy novels? While for 40k I would guess around 50%-75% of people own/played some variant of SMs in 30k I bet 90%+ of players do. 30k is all about SM fanboyism porn.
the_scotsman wrote: Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.
I'm not sure who you've been speaking to, but I've never met a 30k player who thinks 30k should ONLY be Marine on Marine action. Solar Auxilla, Mechanicus, and Militia are all cool and valued parts of 30k, and the ready access of all factions to roughly the same resources makes the game far more balanced.
As a Marine player of 30k, I've never found anything the Solar Auxilla or Militia can use that is unfair, and whilst I'll admit that Mechanium automata are certainly very powerful to an unprepared opponent, they are by no means unfair at all.
In fact, the only thing I've found that tickled me the wrong way was actually a Marine thing (the instant killing hand flamers).
Next time, when you generalise, make sure something backs it up.
Who in the world plays 30k without intending to play one of the space marine factions involved in that storyline?! 30k is literally all about SMs and Primarchs have you read the Horus heresy novels? While for 40k I would guess around 50%-75% of people own/played some variant of SMs in 30k I bet 90%+ of players do. 30k is all about SM fanboyism porn.
People who like the other factions more? Really this sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder.
There are waaaay too many marine factions and the game really became a "SM vs SM" thing lately. I have a SM army myself, but don't want to play with them anymore. The ammount of b-s formations, exclusive powers and other stuff, which makes them riddiculously overpowered, is one of the reasons why my gaming group decided to ban all marine armies in future games.
the_scotsman wrote: Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.
I'm not sure who you've been speaking to, but I've never met a 30k player who thinks 30k should ONLY be Marine on Marine action. Solar Auxilla, Mechanicus, and Militia are all cool and valued parts of 30k, and the ready access of all factions to roughly the same resources makes the game far more balanced.
As a Marine player of 30k, I've never found anything the Solar Auxilla or Militia can use that is unfair, and whilst I'll admit that Mechanium automata are certainly very powerful to an unprepared opponent, they are by no means unfair at all.
In fact, the only thing I've found that tickled me the wrong way was actually a Marine thing (the instant killing hand flamers).
Next time, when you generalise, make sure something backs it up.
Who in the world plays 30k without intending to play one of the space marine factions involved in that storyline?! 30k is literally all about SMs and Primarchs have you read the Horus heresy novels? While for 40k I would guess around 50%-75% of people own/played some variant of SMs in 30k I bet 90%+ of players do. 30k is all about SM fanboyism porn.
Someone who prefers the way FW have taken the Mechanicus side to GW's own?
Someone who likes Solar Auxilla or Militia?
Someone who prefers either FW's aesthetic of their Mech/IG?
Someone who would rather avoid a lot of 40k's imbalances by moving to a seemingly less competitive platform?
30k isn't just Space Marines of their "fanboyism porn". It's widely held as a better ruleset (probably because of the reduced playable factions), a more interesting and colourful background (thanks to FW's very good fluff elements) and an excuse to use very cool looking bits of tech - either Sola Auxilla flavoured, or Mechanicus.
If you think it's only SM, maybe it's not the 30k players who are SM-based.
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Xathrodox86 wrote: There are waaaay too many marine factions and the game really became a "SM vs SM" thing lately. I have a SM army myself, but don't want to play with them anymore. The ammount of b-s formations, exclusive powers and other stuff, whichmakes them riddiculously overpowered, is one of the reasons why my gaming group decided to ban all marine armies in future games.
Or, you know, you could just rebalance the army?
Why flat out BAN marines instead of banning Formations, the exclusive rules, and perhaps grav? I doubt anyone is complaining about the base Marines themselves.
It seems your gaming group has used a sledgehammer to crack a nut on this one.
Right, sorry for the double post but I plan to expand a bit on my previous message.
I'm an SM player. I have a DIY chapter and a small 30K Alpha Legion force. I like the models, I like their style and their background.
I hate everything else about them and what they make with people.
Most SM players that I know are arrogant, self-righteous, "don't hate on my OP power armoured boys" people who are so full of themselves, that they're actualy acknowledge that their faction is OP, while also insulting other players ("You play Tyranids? How does it feel to lose all the time?").
Please note that I don't think all the SM players are like that. Because I know they aren't, just some of them.
Then there are the rules. Marines get exclusive psyker powers. Marines get incredible supplements (Clan Raukaan) with top-tier, outright broken stuff, like the Gorgon Chain. Marines get formations from hell. Marines get everything.
The rest of the factions get diddly squat, with the expection of Eldar and Tau, and even these two armies can't even get close to the ammount of broken bullcrap that the current Marines represent with their access to ridicolous ammount of strong cover saves and the ever present FNP.
Armies like the Dark Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard - what do they have? IG has Steel Host which, while really good, can be easily countered, since we are talking about tanks. They are big, easy targets, easily countered by a squad of Assault Marines for example. And guess what? The SM have a formation that allow their AM to charge after deepstrike. How many other factions have access to something similar? Yeah...
The ammount of love, care and blatant favortism that GW put into Space Marines, while completely neglecting other armies, is truly staggering and disgusting. I honestly feel like a second category gamer for sticking to my Imperial Guard. I see how my Tyranid-playing friend gets whacked time after time by power armoured armies and there's not a thing that he can do to stop them. Before you ask - we are both experienced players, with many games behind us. Problem is, when playing against an outright broken army experience dosen't do jack.
Welcome to the times of legal aimbot in WH40K. Because that's what current SM are like. Broken, overpowered, unfair and shown so much favortism that other armies can basically turn around and go home.
Agreed on Angels of Death. It should not have existed, as well as half of the new Formations GW has released for SM. I have no real issue with the standard SM codex - some parts of it are VERY powerful (free transports and Grav are the main offenders) but aside from that, it's not a terrible codex.
The real reason SM are disliked is because of that impetus on their fluff, and it's something that needs to be addressed. IG should have far more to them, regarding unique formations and factions, as well as Chaos. Tau and Eldar are in a good place, I think.
Orks, Dark Eldar, CSM and (somewhat) IG need that attention now.
There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.
And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.
DorianGray wrote: 30k is literally only about Space Marines can 30k players stop trying to deny this?
The Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum are a total sideshow. 30k is about epic Primarchs and SM on SM combat.
The last HH event / tournament I was at my Iron Hands fought Word Bearers once, Solar Auxilia once and Mechanicum twice. I also have Mechanicum and Imperial Army.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.
And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.
While its fine if you don't see anything wrong with AoD, assuming its because of "jealousy" is rather condescending and not good for discussion The psychic powers in the supplement are for many the main sticking point as it feels both abusive in terms of gameplay as well as giving more power to the haves and ignoring the have nots. I personal think its great to have "Decurions" for each main chapter but so would having that level of variety for CSMs, Guard, Orks, etc who are incredibly diverse and also incredibly lacking in their current selection of viable playstyles.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.
And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.
Nothing wrong with AoD itself, other than many codexes have nowhere near the same treatment, and AFAIK, SoB don't even HAVE Formations.
The base Formations in it, AFAIK, can be used by all Chapters, and has FAR more Relics than any other faction. I'm disregarding the fact that UM and BT receive less from the book than the other Chapters, and simply saying then that the majority of Chapters in C:SM are vastly privileged compared to the rest of 40k.
Vastly more Formations, creating more play opportunities. More access to psychic powers. More opportunity of Warlord Traits (all the BRB Traits, plus two from C:SM) and customisability with Relics (two Relic tables to pick from)
Looking at all of that which AoD has added, can you tell me that that's not unfair compared to CSM or Orks? Unless that's just jealousy and they should get over having less stuff?
tough for me to judge because my community is loaded with wallet equipped leviathan class gamers. guys with wallets so fat they can afford to be there for pretty much every release and buy product. omitting brand new players guys have 3, 4, sometimes more armies fully eqipped, fully kitted. so that when a new codex is released as an example the tables are full of that army. guys just own everything beyond new stuff and happily turn over money for it.
one guy looking for something to buy because hes been playing that land and has the wallet to simply own everything his heart desires bought a five set of knights on a whim, bought out half my gw stores boxed counter supply and has set to doing them until enough stuff has accumulated on the shelf that he wants to buy in order to buy them up and give him more work.
its pretty damn fething intense and scarces away a lot of the new blood, at the 30th anniversary space marine launch i got to touch base with a lot of the newer players in my local area and they stick to their basements and the smaller stores that dont actually sell 40k or gw at all in many cases but have table space enough for a game.
so my verdict at least locally is that no there are exactly enough of them, but more isnt discouraged because there isnt enough new meat braving the storm and coming to the bigger stores and events
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.
And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.
Nothing wrong with AoD itself, other than many codexes have nowhere near the same treatment, and AFAIK, SoB don't even HAVE Formations.
The base Formations in it, AFAIK, can be used by all Chapters, and has FAR more Relics than any other faction. I'm disregarding the fact that UM and BT receive less from the book than the other Chapters, and simply saying then that the majority of Chapters in C:SM are vastly privileged compared to the rest of 40k.
Vastly more Formations, creating more play opportunities.
More access to psychic powers.
More opportunity of Warlord Traits (all the BRB Traits, plus two from C:SM) and customisability with Relics (two Relic tables to pick from)
Looking at all of that which AoD has added, can you tell me that that's not unfair compared to CSM or Orks? Unless that's just jealousy and they should get over having less stuff?
It isn't unfair, because ignoring AoD entirely the Ork and CSM codices are THAT gakky. AoD didn't change that. Nothing is going to be used anyway outside the relics and Skyhammer.
I dont really mind in all fairness, they are the poster boy, I just wish other armies got the same amount or even half as much love in their stories, I would dig it if my necrons had some really cool stories.
As for my local area, every seems to be either all about eldar or SM, the marine players here seem to not care about their models though, just throwing them back into the open box they came in just clanking them about
ChaosxVoid wrote: I dont really mind in all fairness, they are the poster boy, I just wish other armies got the same amount or even half as much love in their stories, I would dig it if my necrons had some really cool stories.
My partner plays The Rebellion of Ten Thousand Wings, a canoptek hive mind that took over its Tomb World. I like to imagine their spyders are amiable and philosophical, like the Tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell. And I'm trying to persuade it to buy one of the giant metal centipedes as a centrepiece model.
I can't think of any canon Necron stories that are that cool, unfortunately. GW seems to get relatively creative when it comes to Space Marine chapter backgrounds, but us non-humans get like a paragraph or two per Tomb / Craft / Sept World. And then the Tau septs they focused on for Warzone Damocles were the most boring and generic ones, instead of intriguing ones like N'dras.
ChaosxVoid wrote: As for my local area, every seems to be either all about eldar or SM, the marine players here seem to not care about their models though, just throwing them back into the open box they came in just clanking them about
The guy I knew who kept his Dark Angels in a cardboard box did so because of his budget, and because the plastic models could apparently stand up to that treatment. Of course, he played Dark Angels in the first place because the DV starter was all he could afford.
Speaking of which, you know what I'd like to see? Complete faction starter kits, like Privateer makes for Warmahordes now. Just bump the price of a Start Collecting! box up to $99 USD and toss in a softcover rulebook, DV-style tutorial guide, and dice / templates / measuring sticks. That'd help with the "too many Space Marines" situation by giving new players multiple entry points. As it is, the starter boxes are really only useful if you already have the stuff you need to play 40k, which you probably got from a 2-player set which has Space Marines in it.
I got into 40k because of SM (LotD). But fell in Love with Tau when they came out. After years away I came back and tried to play Tua when they were absolute garbage. Picked up SM again and found a successor chapter I really liked. Kept buying SM stuff, until I wanted more colors of SM.
Then Tau took a turn for the worse and I sold my whole army. (I do NOT like the direction GW took Tau)
I also bought a Tyranid army but it is very low on the priority list as they are pants on head bad, just like my pre-6th edition Tau.
So I paint various colors of SM now. Because they get great model and fluff support.
The only way to get more people to play something other than SM is give the other factions as much support as the Poster Boys. Tau have taken off since their update because they got new models people wanted with powerful rules.
Despite what GW and some people say, the majority of people spend money on the GAME. If a faction isn't good in the game it doesn't get support from the fans and then doesn't get support from GW (because they can't understand why an all metal army that hasn't had a rules update in 10 years isn't 'popular' ).
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
The Galdius and Battle Company formations that the Space Marines got to let them essentially have 500+ points worth of free Rhinos and stuff was pretty broken and tournament winning...
There was and still IS a LOT OF NERF-RAGE about that.
Also Tac Marine spam is not fun to play against or with. Read some battle reports at tournaments and literally top armies could not kill Tac Marines fast enough to win despite their kill to loss ratio being 10-1. Space Marines being spammed and played like Orks is stupid.
DorianGray wrote: The Galdius and Battle Company formations that the Space Marines got to let them essentially have 500+ points worth of free Rhinos and stuff was pretty broken and tournament winning...
There was and still IS a LOT OF NERF-RAGE about that.
Also Tac Marine spam is not fun to play against or with. Read some battle reports at tournaments and literally top armies could not kill Tac Marines fast enough to win despite their kill to loss ratio being 10-1. Space Marines being spammed and played like Orks is stupid.
ChaosxVoid wrote: I dont really mind in all fairness, they are the poster boy, I just wish other armies got the same amount or even half as much love in their stories, I would dig it if my necrons had some really cool stories.
My partner plays The Rebellion of Ten Thousand Wings, a canoptek hive mind that took over its Tomb World. I like to imagine their spyders are amiable and philosophical, like the Tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell. And I'm trying to persuade it to buy one of the giant metal centipedes as a centrepiece model.
I can't think of any canon Necron stories that are that cool, unfortunately. GW seems to get relatively creative when it comes to Space Marine chapter backgrounds, but us non-humans get like a paragraph or two per Tomb / Craft / Sept World. And then the Tau septs they focused on for Warzone Damocles were the most boring and generic ones, instead of intriguing ones like N'dras.
I love the canoptek sentinal and I cant think of the other one off the top of my head, but the centipede ones, Ill be getting those eventually for my force, but its hard to forge a narrative when the narrative of your army is, they get reborn, they are evil,they kill stuff, eradicate, space marine victory the end.
ChaosxVoid wrote: As for my local area, every seems to be either all about eldar or SM, the marine players here seem to not care about their models though, just throwing them back into the open box they came in just clanking them about
Jewelfox wrote: The guy I knew who kept his Dark Angels in a cardboard box did so because of his budget, and because the plastic models could apparently stand up to that treatment. Of course, he played Dark Angels in the first place because the DV starter was all he could afford.
I understand him not being able to afford things for the army, but surely that should mean you would want take better care of them, throwing them from a good 2 feet to the box and you cant afford to pick up replacements for broken ones seems kinda seems more expensive, unless you dont care that your librarians sword is somewhere in you flgs floor.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Not referring to your original post Mr Gray. You don't seem to be an astartes fan, but my last post was about the toxic hatred certain members have for marine PLAYERS.
Also, if you go back a few pages in my original post you'll see I totally agree with you on the monotony of playing power armor way too often.
If there's too many Marine players and people complain that it gets stale when you just face 3+ saves, how would it get better by having LESS variation among the Marines?
The main problem def. is there are way too many space marine players. It drives everything and all the other problems
Sure the Space Marines can got all the spotlight in the setting and the STORY but they shouldn't get a ridiculous amount of books and releases in the ACTUAL gameplay.
But 40K is essentially an action RPG at this point, the two are heavily interlinked.
Equally, people being drawn into the game are likely to be drawn in by the stuff that's most prominent in the art and fluff, as well as what's seen most often in the table.
So you've got a cycle only GW can really break, and they're not going to because there's no financial incentive to do so.
But it's wrong to lay blame for this at the feet of the players, and the presence of a lot of Space Marines isn't what makes the games current incarnation gak.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
But it's okay for Tau to table them in 3 turns? Okay, sure.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
But it's okay for Tau to table them in 3 turns? Okay, sure.
Tau table who? And no, it's not okay. Unlike some people I could mention, I'm at least consistent on my views.
Yes. WAY too many mureen players, not much fun when everyone is playing the same cookie cutter army. (da, sw ba are excluded, they are reasonably unique)
cosmicsoybean wrote: Yes. WAY too many mureen players, not much fun when everyone is playing the same cookie cutter army. (da, sw ba are excluded, they are reasonably unique)
Martel732 wrote: Primarily DA and BA. But a marine list that tries to use actual marines against Tau is just taking lambs to the slaughter.
I gotten 1600 pts of BA into the Tau deployment zone before and still lost because they crippled my list in one turn of shooting.
There's a reason why I stated C:SM, rather than just SM.
So you did. GW's solution for marines is to turn them into a deathstar or a swarm list. I don't see either of those in the fluff anywhere. Maybe a fluff master could enlighten us.
Conversely, BA can perform exactly ZERO of the things claimed in their fluff. None. I guess the vanilla marines can't either without Gladius or invisible deathstars. I've calculated that 8 WKs could wipe out the entire chapter as presented in the fluff.
We should rate codexes based on RoA and fluff accuracy.
They've got several victories against power armies for starters. They are talked about being "peerless warriors", but are actually punched out by almost every other marine chapter.
BA would have to be one of the worst.
Nids: suck on tabletop, but in a realistic scenario, you'd have to fight four Nids lists in a row to represent their numbers.
DE: hit and run attacks on civilians
Orks: much like Nids above
BA: 1000 dudes who lose 50 guys at a time to one turn of Tau shooting. Totally legit. Let me tell you.
Just as the aircraft carrier put the battleship out of business, the Tau invention of the ion accelerator would mean any chapter deployed against Tau would run through their 1000 dudes in the first 12 hours of combat. BA just have the worst of it since we don't even have invisibility to save us.
I don't think anyone's said that. Mostly we've just been sharing experiences of dealing with bad SM players, and noting that a consistent factor is their sense of entitlement.
In my personal experience, I posted a thread about how to help people have fun while playing against the Tau I owned at the time. In response, several people basically told me to burn my models and that Tau should not be a thing. That's not a complaint about how OP something is, it's visceral hatred for something based on the fact that it exists. Which is basically what SM are fuelled by, in the fluff, and is why I lamented SM players getting a little too in-character.
I don't think all SM players are like that, and I've had only good experiences playing against DA and GK players (I've never played against C:SM). I think that feeling entitled to getting the lion's share of attention does warp how SM players perceive balance issues and the "legitimacy" of other factions, though, and that it takes effort to become self-aware enough to realize that. Or else just the kind of personality that's mellow enough to be "live and let live" towards everyone else, despite playing as genocidal human supremacists.
... does anyone remember when SM were the bad guys, and the Imperium was an oppressive state built on a foundation of lies?
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Well the funny thing is that I did try adapting my strategy. Multiple deep striking units to grab objectives with a Macro cannon manned by Veterans as my back bench support and a couple of Exterminators for support. Allied with Inquisition for Servo Skulls and Marines for Librarian and DS terminators.
Guess how well it went?
Well, here is a hint: 4 to 18. Not in my favour. And I had nothing barring my Macro Cannon and its garrison left alive.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Well the funny thing is that I did try adapting my strategy. Multiple deep striking units to grab objectives with a Macro cannon manned by Veterans as my back bench support and a couple of Exterminators for support. Allied with Inquisition for Servo Skulls and Marines for Librarian and DS terminators.
Guess how well it went?
Well, here is a hint: 4 to 18. Not in my favour. And I had nothing barring my Macro Cannon and its garrison left alive.
You complain about losing to DA and BA with IG. You don't understand how to fight marines at all.
In a galaxy where they are outnumbered million military personnel to one if not more, every other army on the table is loyalist space marine. In the past it was people looking for the easy win, I doubt that has changed even with Demon and Eldar superiority in 7th. just my opinion.
ADDED LATER
I saw a few post stating "Sense of Entitlement" I'd agree in 6th ed and until the new codex came out in 7th boy were the majority of SM players full of complaints about how they should be on top dogs....cause SM are supposed to be ultra elite and the what not.
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: In a galaxy where they are outnumbered million military personnel to one if not more, every other army on the table is loyalist space marine. In the past it was people looking for the easy win, I doubt that has changed even with Demon and Eldar superiority in 7th. just my opinion.
I agree this is stupid. I picked BA in 1993 because no one in my group was using them. And I though they were cool. Jokes on me, I guess.
Hawky wrote:The main problem isn't amount of SM players. The main problem is that GW is neglecting and overlooking other factions because of Space Marines.
This.
GW loves Space Marines to the near exclusion of all else and this is resulting in them getting all the toys whilst other factions are being left behind with 6th edition codexs, many of which where just half arsed bashes of the older codex with a few bits changed up.
Quite simply put: We other factions feel left out. Where are our toys.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
This a thousand times over. The amount of times I have been told that my Imperial Guard are over powered is laughable, even when the Marine player won. Leman Russ tanks are 'OP' because their cannons can murder blobs of marines left out in the open and their armour is good, the fact that they did very little for their cost and where murdered by DS infantry and Laspreds was besides the point.
Guard shouldnt be able to spam tanks, even though we have the same number on the field.
FRFSRF is OP.... even though only a couple of marines where killed by the hundred or so shots.
The list goes on.....
Now I know that it may seem like we are generalising, but the Marine player contingent does seem to have a higher proportion of these player types.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Well the funny thing is that I did try adapting my strategy. Multiple deep striking units to grab objectives with a Macro cannon manned by Veterans as my back bench support and a couple of Exterminators for support. Allied with Inquisition for Servo Skulls and Marines for Librarian and DS terminators.
Guess how well it went?
Well, here is a hint: 4 to 18. Not in my favour. And I had nothing barring my Macro Cannon and its garrison left alive.
You complain about losing to DA and BA with IG. You don't understand how to fight marines at all.
Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: In a galaxy where they are outnumbered million military personnel to one if not more, every other army on the table is loyalist space marine. In the past it was people looking for the easy win, I doubt that has changed even with Demon and Eldar superiority in 7th. just my opinion.
I agree this is stupid. I picked BA in 1993 because no one in my group was using them. And I though they were cool. Jokes on me, I guess.
I'm sure you were not alone in buying SM for aesthetic reasons, I probably should have said most did it for the easy win, not implied all.
The problem is most players expect the focus of the rules to be on game play.This means each army has its own play style with bonuses and set backs.
And most players would expect the factions background to determine the play style to be represented in the game play.And all armies to be treated equally .
Unfortunately GW plc is focused on selling toy soldiers to children, so the moist popular toy soldiers get the most marketing.
This has a negative effect on long term game play and game balance.And eventually a massively negative effect on sales volumes.
No, that's this guy's TAC list. It's not terrible as far as guard goes. The divination guys can make MCs miserable with misfortune. Even Wraithknights don't like misfortune FRFSRF. Is it a world beater? No.
Martel732 wrote: "Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......"
DA, yes, but IG ignores cover shenanigans hard counter them. IG are head and shoulders above BA in the loser bracket. Because shooting works.
What "Ignores Cover" shenanigans do Guard have?
1) Wyverns. It's a Chimera hull--if you can't kill it; you've got other issues.
2) Orders. Kill the Officers, Orders are gone. Kaput. Meeped.
You say Guard hardcounter DA; I say play DA better.
6 X divination psykers and a bunch of ignore cover orders usually does the trick. I should have said that particular build hard counters them.
I've seen many DA lists that can't do much at range. Wyvern seems bad for them.
6x divination psykers? Do you know how much those cost to bring? That is (assuming no other upgrades and all ML 1) 300 points at its cheapest, using 6 Primaris Psykers, and each of them dies so easily it is not even funny.
Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......
Allow me to introduce you to your friend. His name is 'Wyvern' and he doesn't like it when you pretend he does not exist.
*tips horned PA helmet*
Allow me to introduce you to my friend wallet. He is not happy with having to shell out for six new tanks.
Also allow me to introduce you too:
-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks
And thats just off the top of my head. In short, the only thing the Wyvern is good against are Infantry units. Against anything else it is a waste of time and if the enemy so much as caches a whiff of it it is dead.
He uses 6 X psykers. He wins a lot more than you do evidently. 300 is a pittance for the utility they bring. BA pay 300 and get 15 useless fools in power armor.
"-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks "
Blood Angels have these things and are still god-awful. These things can all clearly be overcome.
Martel732 wrote: He uses 6 X psykers. He wins a lot more than you do evidently. 300 is a pittance for the utility they bring. BA pay 300 and get 15 useless fools in power armor.
Given that for 15 points more you can get a Marine Librarian with power armour, better LD, better equipment and better stats the Primaris is laughable. It would be better to ally with a Libby Conclave.
"-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks "
Blood Angels have these things and are still god-awful. These things can all clearly be overcome.
With what?
You seem to forget the Guard have nadda that can counter DS unts and our AT is mainly limited to overpriced and ineffective units and close ranged melta weapons.
I think the point of this thread was that space marines are over-represented, not that all space marine lists (including BA and DA) are overpowered. ^^;
Angels of Death gave them a few new toys, IIRC? But it's Codex: Space Marines armies that get most of the stuff, and no one here seems to dispute that. People are just arguing over whether or not that's how it should be.
The thing is, even if you feel that Space Marines should be the default -- that they're as iconic to 40k as warjacks are to Warmachine -- I feel like Privateer Press handles "minor factions with quirky rules" much better than GW. Just look at the Convergence of Cyriss; PP said upfront that they were a "limited release" faction, which would receive less support, and carefully balanced their weird and unique abilities against everyone else's. They also updated Convergence's rules to keep pace with the new game edition, and they did so at the same time as they updated everything else.
The only reason we can't have that in 40k is because GW hasn't made that kind of even-handedness a priority.
Martel732 wrote: He uses 6 X psykers. He wins a lot more than you do evidently. 300 is a pittance for the utility they bring. BA pay 300 and get 15 useless fools in power armor.
Given that for 15 points more you can get a Marine Librarian with power armour, better LD, better equipment and better stats the Primaris is laughable. It would be better to ally with a Libby Conclave.
"-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks "
Blood Angels have these things and are still god-awful. These things can all clearly be overcome.
With what?
You seem to forget the Guard have nadda that can counter DS unts and our AT is mainly limited to overpriced and ineffective units and close ranged melta weapons.
Seriously? If you don't know how to counter a unit that has to sit there and eat mouthfuls of close range IG shooting, there is nothing any of us can do or say to help you. Again, not trying to be rude, just fact.
Also 300 points seems like a lot. Keep in mind though not only will you have 6x Prescience (invaluable for guard) you will also most likely have every other divination power. Everything from ignores cover, to 4+ invuln, to Rending shots. Combi this with PLATOONS with special and heavy weapons squads and it becomes crazy effective.
Again Ill bring up the 300 points. A bike conclave at ml2 per libby is 320. If I lose ONE librarian it's crippled on top of the errata nerfs. Get a bad perils with a 25 point psyker? No prob. 5 more to go. 300 points on divination psykers is a great investment if used properly.
If you really want to sell your argument, just humor everyone trying to help and run a platoon based list with the psykers, platoons and wyverns (proxy for all any reasonable person cares). Run a couple vendettas (proxy if you have to) and you should still have a few hundred left to spend on whatever. A pair of demolishers or punishers. Maybe both if you can afford it. Heck, you can afford a dakka knight for 425. I know for a FACT I could mulch any marine player at my LGS with what I just suggested. Try it out and report back.
On a side note: don't IG have an order that gives ignores cover?
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
I couldn't agree more. My LR's get one, lucky hit. "Maaaan Marines have s***ty tanks. It dosen't matter that he can destroy my "OP" LR's with a single AM squad, right after deep strike, using a formation that SM do possess.
Not to mention, their complete lack of empathy towards other players. "Yeah, I know you IG codex is from the last edition, but I'm wondering if GW will release the new SM dex this year. What? A new edition is coming, it's natural that SM should get new codex. What's so strange with that?"
Give me a break.
They're so getting used to having the best stuff, that many of them can't even understand what's it like to not being on the very top. They don't understand that there are people playing other armies, than them. They don't understand that their attitude is toxic, childish and making others hurt and irritated at them, especially if they can't help but use snide comments during game, when their broken-as-hell (and cheap!) unit steamrolls the strongest thing in their opponent's army, which could be taken out easily with anything else that they have.
Space Marines, at this point, are simply hurtful to the hobby. They bring new players, who won't be able to leave their comfort zone and try something else, something more challenging ("Orks are horrible! I'd play them, but their codex is old and they are weak!"). They bring players that treat those with weaker codexes like crap ("You're playing Nids? How does it feel to loose all the time?").
They are using childish and absurd arguments like "SM are a poster army. It's normal that GW would make them the strongest faction." They forget, or rather pretend not to notice, that this is a tabletop GAME and
such games should be BALANCED to be playable and fun. Certainly they should not be some douchebag's private "I will feel better once I'll table this sucker" member-enlargement sessions.
Of course there are those, who don't act like that, but in my lengthy experience, they are few and in between. I honestly never met a single SM player that didn't exhibit tendencies, like those I've just described.
Hawky wrote:The main problem isn't amount of SM players. The main problem is that GW is neglecting and overlooking other factions because of Space Marines.
Not to mention giving them the best toys. The most effective anti-SM weapons (Grav weapons) are marine-exclusive...
This.
GW loves Space Marines to the near exclusion of all else and this is resulting in them getting all the toys whilst other factions are being left behind with 6th edition codexs, many of which where just half arsed bashes of the older codex with a few bits changed up.
Quite simply put: We other factions feel left out. Where are our toys.
In a wonderful, alternate reality, where all the codexes are balanced and SM players are not a priviledged group in our hobby.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
I couldn't agree more. My LR's get one, lucky hit. "Maaaan Marines have s***ty tanks. It dosen't matter that he can destroy my "OP" LR's with a single AM squad, right after deep strike, using a formation that SM do possess.
Not to mention, their complete lack of empathy towards other players. "Yeah, I know you IG codex is from the last edition, but I'm wondering if GW will release the new SM dex this year. What? A new edition is coming, it's natural that SM should get new codex. What's so strange with that?"
Give me a break.
They're so getting used to having the best stuff, that many of them can't even understand what's it like to not being on the very top. They don't understand that there are people playing other armies, than them. They don't understand that their attitude is toxic, childish and making others hurt and irritated at them, especially if they can't help but use snide comments during game, when their broken-as-hell (and cheap!) unit steamrolls the strongest thing in their opponent's army, which could be taken out easily with anything else that they have.
Space Marines, at this point, are simply hurtful to the hobby. They bring new players, who won't be able to leave their comfort zone and try something else, something more challenging ("Orks are horrible! I'd play them, but their codex is old and they are weak!"). They bring players that treat those with weaker codexes like crap ("You're playing Nids? How does it feel to loose all the time?").
They are using childish and absurd arguments like "SM are a poster army. It's normal that GW would make them the strongest faction." They forget, or rather pretend not to notice, that this is a tabletop GAME and
such games should be BALANCED to be playable and fun. Certainly they should not be some douchebag's private "I will feel better once I'll table this sucker" member-enlargement sessions.
Of course there are those, who don't act like that, but in my lengthy experience, they are few and in between. I honestly never met a single SM player that didn't exhibit tendencies, like those I've just described.
Hawky wrote:The main problem isn't amount of SM players. The main problem is that GW is neglecting and overlooking other factions because of Space Marines.
Not to mention giving them the best toys. The most effective anti-SM weapons (Grav weapons) are marine-exclusive...
This.
GW loves Space Marines to the near exclusion of all else and this is resulting in them getting all the toys whilst other factions are being left behind with 6th edition codexs, many of which where just half arsed bashes of the older codex with a few bits changed up.
Quite simply put: We other factions feel left out. Where are our toys.
In a wonderful, alternate reality, where all the codexes are balanced and SM players are not a priviledged group in our hobby.
Did a SM player mushroom stamp your sister or something? I mean I get being frustrated with GW for their unsavory release schedule. Or marines themselves because of redundant games or because of some of the silly gak they get. But that kind of disdain for the players doesn't seem rational at all. As many places as I've been marines are about in the middle of the pack as far as personality. For some reason a few limited stores act like SMTFG meccas or people are really blowing gak out of proportion.
It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.
Selym wrote: It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.
I find it odd that a game would spark that kind of the bitterness against the actual players though. It seems incredibly stupid to me. It would be if I tried to claim all Tau players are wife-beating scumbags. I mean I don't like playing tau. I don't think the army fits very well into 40k and very much a money grab on the anime crowd. It stops with the army though. I only dislike one Tau player and that's because he's a prick. Nothing to do with the army he plays. I find it odd that it's always the same 2 or 3 posters claiming these "irl" experiences occur in the regular. Given such a low amount of people making claims wouldn't it suggest the opposite about marine players?
I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.
The 40k setting and hobby would be about a thousand times more interesting if all of the Space Marines vanished one day.
Except maybe Chaos Space Marines. At least it makes sense when they fight each other so much.
When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.
Selym wrote: It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.
I find it odd that a game would spark that kind of the bitterness against the actual players though. It seems incredibly stupid to me. It would be if I tried to claim all Tau players are wife-beating scumbags. I mean I don't like playing tau. I don't think the army fits very well into 40k and very much a money grab on the anime crowd. It stops with the army though. I only dislike one Tau player and that's because he's a prick. Nothing to do with the army he plays. I find it odd that it's always the same 2 or 3 posters claiming these "irl" experiences occur in the regular. Given such a low amount of people making claims wouldn't it suggest the opposite about marine players?
I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.
As far as I can tell, we're commenting only on players we know in person. And then expanding that trend into statements that thus far have gone largely uncontested. The phenomenon has not really been know to occur outside of true TFG's - and they jump from army to army based on what is most op at the time.
Arbitrator wrote: The 40k setting and hobby would be about a thousand times more interesting if all of the Space Marines vanished one day.
Except maybe Chaos Space Marines. At least it makes sense when they fight each other so much.
When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.
I am not sure about having them vanish, but removing them from the limelight and giving the other factions a bit of love and attention would definitely go a long way.
Did a SM player mushroom stamp your sister or something? I mean I get being frustrated with GW for their unsavory release schedule. Or marines themselves because of redundant games or because of some of the silly gak they get. But that kind of disdain for the players doesn't seem rational at all. As many places as I've been marines are about in the middle of the pack as far as personality. For some reason a few limited stores act like SMTFG meccas or people are really blowing gak out of proportion.
In the future please avoid comments about my family. Thank you.
I don't have disdain for Marine players. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd notice that I've mentioned that not all of them are d-bags. I haven't actually met those people yet, but I do know that they exist. Even my closest gaming buddies, when playing SM, turn into sperg lords. Unfortunately.
It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.
Precisely. The SM playerbase has the most obnoxious players, simply because it is the biggest of them all. I've never met a Tau, Guard or Nid player who'd be rude, arrogant and filled with such ammounts of self righteousness, that it's almost scary. Now marine ones - they have them crawling out of the woodwork.
I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.
They're not anecdotes. They're facts, derived from personall experience. I'm not telling someone elses story about how that one time, he met an SM player that was a douchenozzle. I'm telling about my own experiences in that matter, or my friend's expieriences. And of course I play against SM. It's impossible not to, given how many of them are out there. My best mate plays them and he's insufferable when he does it, but as soon as he switches to his Orks, his character and manners improve greatly. Funny story, eh?
When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.
"I think that GW should release codex for every, single chapter", "I think that GW should make a codex for Blood Ravens, because they've brought so many people into the hobby", "Of course we get the best toys, we are the Imperium's premier fighting force", "Our last codex was three months ago? Time for a new one! What? The Nids had theirs release 5 years ago? Screw them".
I saw a few post stating "Sense of Entitlement" I'd agree in 6th ed and until the new codex came out in 7th boy were the majority of SM players full of complaints about how they should be on top dogs....cause SM are supposed to be ultra elite and the what not.
Funny they don't play them that way though, do they? If they are suppose to be an Elite army how come most people or a lot of people don't play them that way at all.
Did a SM player mushroom stamp your sister or something? I mean I get being frustrated with GW for their unsavory release schedule. Or marines themselves because of redundant games or because of some of the silly gak they get. But that kind of disdain for the players doesn't seem rational at all. As many places as I've been marines are about in the middle of the pack as far as personality. For some reason a few limited stores act like SMTFG meccas or people are really blowing gak out of proportion.
In the future please avoid comments about my family. Thank you.
I don't have disdain for Marine players. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd notice that I've mentioned that not all of them are d-bags. I haven't actually met those people yet, but I do know that they exist. Even my closest gaming buddies, when playing SM, turn into sperg lords. Unfortunately.
Which only applies to your friends, unfortunately. I fail to see how you can apply your friends turning into "sperg lords" to the entire faction.
It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.
Precisely. The SM playerbase has the most obnoxious players, simply because it is the biggest of them all. I've never met a Tau, Guard or Nid player who'd be rude, arrogant and filled with such ammounts of self righteousness, that it's almost scary. Now marine ones - they have them crawling out of the woodwork.
And this is where percentages kicks in.
Assuming that SM players aren't any more likely to be TFG than any other player, simply by having more people who play SM as a primary army would mean there are more TFGs who play Space Marines. It's like saying that, if there was a fully 50% male/female split, that because a larger country has more women, that country is more popular with women. Instead, it's because the size is bigger, leading to more women. There ARE TFG Tau, Guard and Nid players - I've met at least one for each. However, you see less compared to SMTFGs because there are so many SM players, and whilst the proportion may be the same, the larger faction size means that portion is larger than other factions.
If we really wanted to study "Does playing SM make you more TFG", we would take a randomly selected sample of each faction's player base, and measure levels of TFG-ness (if that were possible). That would give a correct answer.
I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.
They're not anecdotes. They're facts, derived from personall experience. I'm not telling someone elses story about how that one time, he met an SM player that was a douchenozzle. I'm telling about my own experiences in that matter, or my friend's expieriences. And of course I play against SM. It's impossible not to, given how many of them are out there. My best mate plays them and he's insufferable when he does it, but as soon as he switches to his Orks, his character and manners improve greatly. Funny story, eh?
Still anecdotes. This may have happened, but it doesn't allow for you to generalise. I could give countless anecdotes (sorry, FACTS) about SM players I know who aren't TFG, and are pleasant people to play. They're just as valid as what you've said.
Again, your "funny story" is only generalisable to your best mate - not to all SM players.
When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.
"I think that GW should release codex for every, single chapter", "I think that GW should make a codex for Blood Ravens, because they've brought so many people into the hobby", "Of course we get the best toys, we are the Imperium's premier fighting force", "Our last codex was three months ago? Time for a new one! What? The Nids had theirs release 5 years ago? Screw them".
And so on, and so on, and so on...
Welcome to a vocal minority. I've never seen anyone ask seriously for a Blood Raven CODEX - a supplement, maybe, a Chapter Tactic perhaps. Not a full codex.
I've never seen anyone advocate for EVERY Chapter getting a codex.
Again, never seen an SM player outright say "Screw X Faction because only SM should get codex updates. Most, if not all, SM players I know would be agreeing wholeheartedly with the Nid player that they should get their new codex.
These are not indicative of the SM playerbase as a general.
If we really wanted to study "Does playing SM make you more TFG", we would take a randomly selected sample of each faction's player base, and measure levels of TFG-ness (if that were possible). That would give a correct answer.
You could do a scientific survey, but as most of this stuff is subjective you might have to disguise the intent. Like by using the authoritarian personality quotient, which feels out how much someone relishes the idea of punishing children and nonconformists.
I don't feel that that would be needed, though, because this is stuff that there are best practices and a body of knowledge for already. Thanks to the social sciences, we already know that inequality is a root cause of exactly the kinds of problems we're seeing among 40k players. Meanwhile, the communities for competing games like Warmachine give us examples of what less-unequal social groups in the miniatures hobby are like.
tl;dr The problem isn't that TFGs play C:SM, it's that playing C:SMmakes it more likely that you will develop TFG traits and think yourself reasonable the whole time. We can solve this not by insulting and stigmatizing C:SM players, but by levelling the playing field, recognizing how inequality creates bias that we need to consciously correct for, and managing people's expectations better.
40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.
Crimson Devil wrote: 40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.
This is demonstrably untrue. There are a number of factors that keep people from switching factions, including the obvious (lack of time or money) and the less obvious (when you simply can't identify with C:SM). Besides that, why should people have to start all over with modelling and collecting, just because someone else doesn't like what they play? I think Space Marines are overrated and unfairly favoured, but I'm not going around telling SM players they need to just quit and play IG. They aren't the ones who caused the problem, and the fact that they play SM isn't itself a problem.
Also, you can refuse to play against people, but you can't stop them from being adversarial and intolerant, and making communities toxic for you.
I personally got very into the Tau and their models and characters. Then I came here to ask how I could make it more fun to play against them, since I want my gaming partners to enjoy themselves. Pretty soon Space Marine players were telling me I should burn my models, or play Infinity (but not 40k) with them, and that it's a profound injustice that pulse rifles are better than bolters. I am not joking.
Crimson Devil wrote: 40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.
This is demonstrably untrue. There are a number of factors that keep people from switching factions, including the obvious (lack of time or money) and the less obvious (when you simply can't identify with C:SM). Besides that, why should people have to start all over with modelling and collecting, just because someone else doesn't like what they play? I think Space Marines are overrated and unfairly favoured, but I'm not going around telling SM players they need to just quit and play IG. They aren't the ones who caused the problem, and the fact that they play SM isn't itself a problem.
Also, you can refuse to play against people, but you can't stop them from being adversarial and intolerant, and making communities toxic for you.
I personally got very into the Tau and their models and characters. Then I came here to ask how I could make it more fun to play against them, since I want my gaming partners to enjoy themselves. Pretty soon Space Marine players were telling me I should burn my models, or play Infinity (but not 40k) with them, and that it's a profound injustice that pulse rifles are better than bolters. I am not joking.
If you want to make some of the TFGSM players swallow some humble pie, play games where you and your opponent swap armies. This is a good thing on a multitude of levels. Obviously it can and usually does break up the monotony of playing the same army (for both players), it'll familiarize more players with the rules of other armies and for those people playing the power armies, hopefully it will help them empathize with and realize the plight of the have-nots codices.
Also on a separate note: that's exactly why I stayed away from your thread about making Tau more interesting. I mean I definitely respect your desire to help improve games for your opponents, but I knew a few idiots (not just SM ones) would turn that thread into a moan-fest and it would spiral down hill from there. That just tends to happen in most Tau related threads sadly. Even though I'm not a fan of the army, I've got no reason to badger Tau players for playing what they like. Especially if they are trying to diversify in the interest of more fun for all parties.
Crimson Devil wrote: 40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.
This is demonstrably untrue. There are a number of factors that keep people from switching factions, including the obvious (lack of time or money) and the less obvious (when you simply can't identify with C:SM). Besides that, why should people have to start all over with modelling and collecting, just because someone else doesn't like what they play? I think Space Marines are overrated and unfairly favoured, but I'm not going around telling SM players they need to just quit and play IG. They aren't the ones who caused the problem, and the fact that they play SM isn't itself a problem.
Also, you can refuse to play against people, but you can't stop them from being adversarial and intolerant, and making communities toxic for you.
I personally got very into the Tau and their models and characters. Then I came here to ask how I could make it more fun to play against them, since I want my gaming partners to enjoy themselves. Pretty soon Space Marine players were telling me I should burn my models, or play Infinity (but not 40k) with them, and that it's a profound injustice that pulse rifles are better than bolters. I am not joking.
No one is trapped in an army. You can change it any time you like. It may not be easy to do, but it can be done. You can put your entire army up on ebay or the swap shop and start over anytime you like.
When you choose an army you get all of the benefits and disadvantages that go along with it. I play Blood Angels. I started back in 3rd edition because I loved the Baal Predator. I got the benefit of the powerful "Rhino Rush" and the disadvantage of a lot of people assuming I'm TFG because Blood Angels. Every game I got to hear how broken and cheesy my army was while we set up the table. At one point there was a mob demanding a major nerfing or banning of my codex in the group. Its been up and down on the power scale ever since. 4th: Pity, 5th: Hate, 6th: Pity, 7th Pity.
When your codex is powerful people will hate you and make assumptions about your character. And when you are weak they will belittle you. Play the army you want to play, for whatever reason you want to play it. Other people opinions on the matter be damned. If you choose to respond to toxic behavior by being toxic yourself than that's on you and no one else.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Exactly. I use the CSM codex all the time and I revel in its horrendous writing.
lol, we of the ork faction share your feelings
Honestly if it wasn't for the Chaos Space Marines and maybe DE players the Ork players wouldn't have any fun matches to play where the results weren't already written in stone.
I dunno the local meta well, I know a couple players who play SM and a tau player.
Most of my viewpoint is more from 'outside' the box, so to speak then. Looking in, yeah I see a whole lot of different SM. But it's also the (almost) only human faction there is, so it makes sense imo. Personally I have always been of the mind set why play human, even super human, when you can try alien? But I see the draw in others, to play humans, so I personally think that is a lot of the reason 40k = Space marines. I don't think it's so much about power, though for some people it definitely is, as much as it is about what they relate to.
This thread was original more about the lack of variety in the setting than about the power level of codexes.
In GENERAL it just stinks when if you're a marine player you look around the table at your gaming group and 8/10 guys all play loyalist marines as their main army. Le Sigh* :(
So a lot of games end up as SM vs SMs.... People have gone through entire tournaments with their Space Marine army playing only against other SM armies. LOL
I'd say it's only a problem for me when it's literally Codex Space Marine versus Codex Space Marine but... that is what I get. I'd love to have more than one other person here playing a marine army that's Angels, Wolves or Knights but nope.
The problem is that the support for the Astartes is huge compared to everything else and they have developed factions within the faction that now have to be supported by incresingly chnaging thier own fluff to make them stay unique and have flavoured units or uincresingly outlandishness.
Sadly there is a self fullfilling prophercy that Marines sell so they make more and more of them, reducing other stuff, which means Marines sell more so they make more of them and so on.
GW does not have infinite resources so it can only focuss on a few things - and more and mroe they tend to be Marines.
Another issue is that most marine things had alrady been done in some form or another, so they have to keep inventinig "new" marine things. Hence the vertiable flood of Marine flyers over the last few years.
Oh hey, Selym started a thread talking about a Space Marine player they know who has trouble empathizing with anyone that doesn't play C:SM.
Maybe Dantes_Baals' suggestion would help? If people traded or proxied armies more often, it might make discussions about game balance and "OP" stuff a lot more productive. Especially when talking about smaller factions that aren't some flavour of Space Marine.
As an added bonus, people who play SM right now might find they like other factions' models and playstyles too, and diversify their collections, making the game more interesting.
I actually like the setting better if all of the surviving marines went over to chaos. I think it makes it more interesting.
A god emperor tried to create angels to shield his flock, but the angels turned on them and had to be cast down. For this hubris, mankind must battle these fallen heroes for eternity until finally being claimed.
It's an excellent story compared to now. Cypher would be even more interesting IMO, and Greyknights would be even cooler. Sisters would make a lot more sense as well.
i think way too many people play space marines, however I'm also part of the problem. My gaming group has a bunch of guys who have space marines, and whenever a new player shows some interest of starting, we all chip in a squad or so of guys to get them started into space marines. this has got us about 6 more SM players in the community. When 7-8 guys all give you a squad of space marines, suddenly you have a lot of points in space marines and it cuts a LOT of the work in half
Maybe try breaking from introducing by buying marines and instead ask them "hey, which of these armies interests you most?" and chip in a little bit each of that army. Maybe it's Marines, maybe it's not. Either way, seems more successful than always going the same army for everyone.
I personally love Space Marines, they were what initially drew me into the game in 2001, and I still enjoy painting, collecting, and playing with them now. As far as versatility goes - does any faction do it better? Dark Angels, for example, have three very distinct styles to choose from (I have the models and an army list for all three) - Ravenwing (bikes and landspeeders), Deathwing (Terminators), and Greenwing (your basic Marine-style army, minus a few units that would be very nice to have access [Centurions, Stormtalon/Stormraven, Stalkers/Hunters]). I have an Ultramarine allied force to fill these exact holes in the DA army, and it's quite enjoyable.
Which only applies to your friends, unfortunately. I fail to see how you can apply your friends turning into "sperg lords" to the entire faction.
No it dosen't. I've mentioned them, but it dosen't mean that I'm playing with only my closest mates.
And this is where percentages kicks in.
Assuming that SM players aren't any more likely to be TFG than any other player, simply by having more people who play SM as a primary army would mean there are more TFGs who play Space Marines. It's like saying that, if there was a fully 50% male/female split, that because a larger country has more women, that country is more popular with women. Instead, it's because the size is bigger, leading to more women. There ARE TFG Tau, Guard and Nid players - I've met at least one for each. However, you see less compared to SMTFGs because there are so many SM players, and whilst the proportion may be the same, the larger faction size means that portion is larger than other factions.
If we really wanted to study "Does playing SM make you more TFG", we would take a randomly selected sample of each faction's player base, and measure levels of TFG-ness (if that were possible). That would give a correct answer.
You don't have to tell me that there are a-holes in every player base. I know that. Unfortunately most of them have a lot of power armour on their shelves.
Still anecdotes. This may have happened, but it doesn't allow for you to generalise. I could give countless anecdotes (sorry, FACTS) about SM players I know who aren't TFG, and are pleasant people to play. They're just as valid as what you've said.
Again, your "funny story" is only generalisable to your best mate - not to all SM players.
This "funny story" does in fact concern my friend, but there are a ton of other, like that one. I'm just talking about my personal experience.
Welcome to a vocal minority. I've never seen anyone ask seriously for a Blood Raven CODEX - a supplement, maybe, a Chapter Tactic perhaps. Not a full codex.
I've never seen anyone advocate for EVERY Chapter getting a codex.
Again, never seen an SM player outright say "Screw X Faction because only SM should get codex updates. Most, if not all, SM players I know would be agreeing wholeheartedly with the Nid player that they should get their new codex.
You've been clearly playing with other people than myself. I've bumped into many SM players, who thought that their faction should have everything, even if it meant that other factions players would not recieve any updates.
These are not indicative of the SM playerbase as a general.
I've never said that all SM players are like that. Just a lot of them.
Jewelfox wrote: I nominate "Games Workshop takes their time to overhaul the system, and updates every faction at once and continues tweaking them as time goes on."
Warmachine may have spoiled me.
I second this....
And I blame Warlord Games for spoiling me.
Jewelfox wrote: I nominate "Games Workshop takes their time to overhaul the system, and updates every faction at once and continues tweaking them as time goes on."
Warmachine may have spoiled me.
I second this....
And I blame Warlord Games for spoiling me.
Of course it's too Space Marine centric. Other factions just don't get the same attention that Space Marines get, and I'd include CSM in that too because I don't see Codex: Iron Warriors or Codex: Word Bearers or anything like that.
It doesn't have to be that way either - back in the 3.5ed Codex there used to be special rules and wargear for each traitor legion but now if you want to run a World Eaters army for example, you're just gonna end up painting Black Legion in crimson.
Yeah loyalist filth get way too much attention, in the time it takes any given codex to get one update there'll be at least three new Imperial marine updates. Not to mention all the extra supplementary rules they get compared to everyone else. When there's so much more stuff and that stuff is updated so much more often why wouldn't they be so much more popular?
So I wrote to GW customer support citing this thread and got the following response. If you guys want to help me write a good response I will send it over.
Here is how they responded:
"Thanks for writing in to us. We will forward your complaint to the appropriate parties as feedback for review. While the growing popularity of Forge World's Horus Heresy line may be contributing to this, how do you feel this has changed over time? Back in the mid 90's during 2nd Edition 4/5 of the loyalist Space Marine Armies were present: Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Angels of Death (double edition with Dark Angels and Blood Angels). Grey Knights were also featured, but did not have a fully-fledged codex. Since then we have added one new Space Marine army (Grey Knights), but also Imperial Knights, two Adeptus Mechanicus factions, Tau Empire, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins. Could you provide some examples of how you feel that their is too much focus and too many releases for Space Marine associated materials? Some concrete examples would lend weight to your concern for the proliferation of Space Marines by Games Workshop."
Most of the supplements have had some sort of extra focus on marines compared to whatever else was in the supplement vs them (i.e. angels of death gave SM only powers, formations, and I think brought some the HH units into 40kiirc, or fenris gave SW a great unit on par with TWC, and some good formations for them, while IIRC daemons got some okay stuff, but nothing amazing), along with every 2 player starter box since 5th ed at least I think.
Not to mention chaos has a dog gak codex since 5th when I started playing, and outside of maybe SoB, I want to say it's the oldest codex around. Meanwhile, SM main dex have never failed to get an updated 'dex every edition if not being the FIRST updated 'dex (iirc, please do correct me if I'm wrong obviously), along with most of the SM variant chapters getting an update fairly regularly too (I think). They also have more formations than any other army (maybe even several armies), along with some of the best rules in the game (free transports, grav, ATSKNF, drop pod assault/whatever the guidance rule is called)
I would point out that while the Horus Heresy series did make Marines even more popular, the imbalance was already there even in the early days of 40k and the issue was actually exacerbated in 5th edition, where the standalone codexes (along with them being incredibly powerful) made marines dominate the game.
Also point out that, if taking every CURRENT marine special character and put them together, you have 35 unique special characters. Just Special Characters, that doesn't even include specialist units like Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Wolf Scouts, Stormwolf, Deathwing Knights, Crusader Squads, etc. and that there are more marine special characters than there are units from whole factions! (and not just the tiny pamphlet dexes like the Militarium Tempestus ones either).
DorianGray wrote: Could you provide some examples of how you feel that their is too much focus and too many releases for Space Marine associated materials? Some concrete examples would lend weight to your concern for the proliferation of Space Marines by Games Workshop."
That's the nicest way to say "Make a more coherent argument or STFU!" that I've ever seen.
Really, you actually made a complete goof of yourself and emailed GW about people buying and playing Space Marine armies? Are you five years old? What do you expect will happen from your "official complaint?"
SM is a great starter army. Lots of options, but not too much you need to look for with regards to rules interaction. Once you have the basics down, you're able to look at other armies with an eye towards the SM baseline.
I may be repeating other people here: correct me if I'm wrong, but your complaint is: Lots of people play space marines, so stop releasing space marines? In other news: McDonalds sells lots of cheeseburgers, and to make it fair for the Nugget eaters, they will now be cutting half of the burger products from their menus to make it fair for those who like chicken.
If it's really that much of a "STUPID NORMIES! REE!" thing for you, then be the change you want to see: Encourage new people to play other armies, etc. Alternatively, stop whining that people play the army they like, and be glad that the community isn't dead maybe?
5/23 armies on the web store are Astartes. Really it's 5/22 because Officio Assassinorium doesn't really count as a faction. That's 22% roughly, if other factions got the same amount of attention there would only be 4 factions.
And space marines are one of the easy first armies, in every starter set.
Spare and second hand are everywhere, its not hard to see why they are popular. They are alos more forgiving to new players, easy to paint within reason, convert and the fact there utterly interchangeable design means even a novice converter can achieve what they want.
Brennonjw wrote: I may be repeating other people here: correct me if I'm wrong, but your complaint is: Lots of people play space marines, so stop releasing space marines? In other news: McDonalds sells lots of cheeseburgers, and to make it fair for the Nugget eaters, they will now be cutting half of the burger products from their menus to make it fair for those who like chicken.
If it's really that much of a "STUPID NORMIES! REE!" thing for you, then be the change you want to see: Encourage new people to play other armies, etc. Alternatively, stop whining that people play the army they like, and be glad that the community isn't dead maybe?
Nah, let them. Drink in their tears as you crush them with Gladius' and the Super Best Friends Allies, it's the only way.
Brennonjw wrote: I may be repeating other people here: correct me if I'm wrong, but your complaint is: Lots of people play space marines, so stop releasing space marines? In other news: McDonalds sells lots of cheeseburgers, and to make it fair for the Nugget eaters, they will now be cutting half of the burger products from their menus to make it fair for those who like chicken.
If it's really that much of a "STUPID NORMIES! REE!" thing for you, then be the change you want to see: Encourage new people to play other armies, etc. Alternatively, stop whining that people play the army they like, and be glad that the community isn't dead maybe?
Nah, let them. Drink in their tears as you crush them with Gladius' and the Super Best Friends Allies, it's the only way.
But.... but I don't play 40k space marines (30k's a different story DG, TS, and Solar Auxilia for life )
Call me crazy, but I think the fact that 70% of armies are Space Marines is probably why we see a lot of Space Marines releases. Releasing something that is usable by 70% of your customer base is just smart business. Go where the money is. If non-SM players want that to change, they need to spend more money on non-SM stuff. It really is that simple.
SM are a great starter army due to being relatively easy to paint and fairly simple to play tactically. That is almost never going to change without passing off 70% of the customer base.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Call me crazy, but I think the fact that 70% of armies are Space Marines is probably why we see a lot of Space Marines releases. Releasing something that is usable by 70% of your customer base is just smart business. Go where the money is. If non-SM players want that to change, they need to spend more money on non-SM stuff. It really is that simple.
SM are a great starter army due to being relatively easy to paint and fairly simple to play tactically. That is almost never going to change without passing off 70% of the customer base.
SM are popular because they get all the support. Give more support to more non SM armies and they get more popular. Simple.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Call me crazy, but I think the fact that 70% of armies are Space Marines is probably why we see a lot of Space Marines releases. Releasing something that is usable by 70% of your customer base is just smart business. Go where the money is. If non-SM players want that to change, they need to spend more money on non-SM stuff. It really is that simple.
SM are a great starter army due to being relatively easy to paint and fairly simple to play tactically. That is almost never going to change without passing off 70% of the customer base.
SM are popular because they get all the support. Give more support to more non SM armies and they get more popular. Simple.
Chicken or the egg. Something had to lead GW down the road of Lots of Space Marines, and I am willing to bet it was sales figures.
I'z playin' wit da Space Marines! Playin' wit deyr hedds liek a ball, playin' wit deyr squishy bits, playin' wit da dakka I taek frum dem. Lotza fun wit Space Marines! Dey maek a gud fight!
Proud to be one of them then! I did however buy a small marine force when I entertained the idea of doing a Salamander army. Never played a game with them though, does that count?
Selym wrote: And it is only sales figures that will convince GW management that players are interested in the xenos and chaos factions.
As far as they can tell, only a vocal minority doesn't want to play Marinehammer.
So what is the solution to that problem? They have already buffed a good number of the xenos armies to the point they are as powerful or more powerful than Space Marines, probably in an effort to entice players to buy them, yet here we sit with a continual stream of SM products.
Seriously lacking in anything even vaguely useable in a game, and barely anything for my troops quotient, but it has had a good number of chances to kill some other marines.
Selym wrote: And it is only sales figures that will convince GW management that players are interested in the xenos and chaos factions.
As far as they can tell, only a vocal minority doesn't want to play Marinehammer.
So what is the solution to that problem? They have already buffed a good number of the xenos armies to the point they are as powerful or more powerful than Space Marines, probably in an effort to entice players to buy them, yet here we sit with a continual stream of SM products.
Possibly they over did it. Eldar and Necrons are regarded as op and/or annoying af, and it's hardly like their entire range became noteworthy selling points. After an initial craze for certain things, their sales probably dropped off the radar.
Further to this is that production lines probably take a good 2-4 years to properly implement. We'd likely not see the outcome of a particular shift for a couple of years, and right now GW is changing stuff so fast that they cannot attribute any success to any individual change.
Selym wrote: And it is only sales figures that will convince GW management that players are interested in the xenos and chaos factions.
As far as they can tell, only a vocal minority doesn't want to play Marinehammer.
So what is the solution to that problem? They have already buffed a good number of the xenos armies to the point they are as powerful or more powerful than Space Marines, probably in an effort to entice players to buy them, yet here we sit with a continual stream of SM products.
Because that isn't good support. For example we'll look at Eldar. Updating Finecast models, balancing rules and a decent starter box containing them like Stormclaw would be great. They have none of those things now.
Honestly, the Start Collecting boxes would have been a great way to do that. Problem is, most are great ways to start an army, but Eldar got shafted hard. They should have had a foot Farseer, a squad of Guardians, and either a Wave Serpent or a Falcon. That would have screamed Eldar to me. The current box does not. Another thing they should do is release a small format codex of every army paired with the small format BRB.
It's what they seem to release in general. If it's a SM update, there will be lots of SM updates, and lots of SM. If it's a Xenos update, it almost always comes with more SM.
I'm probably one of the few people out there who avoid anything human related when it comes to collecting the minitures... I'm positive my little warband would be mauled on the tabletop... Stupid Space Marines getting all the love and glory.
Do you think they'll have anything Abhuman related in the near future? Yes, it is off-topic but I thought I'd ask, anyway.
Selym wrote: It's what they seem to release in general. If it's a SM update, there will be lots of SM updates, and lots of SM. If it's a Xenos update, it almost always comes with more SM.
And dont forget: every new edition is followed closely by the newest SM codex.
So wait, Space Marines gets a standard codex and other individual codexs for specific Chapters? If that's the case, why don't they at least do the same for others, like different Craftworlds, for example? I never seen specific codex for a certain Craftworld before.
30k started as a marines-only game, and it surpassed the whole of WHFB in a fairly short time period. People like marines, and it is in GW's best interests to continually feed into that.
Just asking them to stop focusing on marines with the vague promise that people will buy other armies just as much is foolish.
I know and I'm not asking them to divert away from Space Marines but it couldn't hurt to explore with other popular factions, mainly the Eldar? You have the Dark Eldar and Harlequins, which I'm more then grateful but different Craftworlds, that's a whole other ball game.
Benny Badmen wrote: I know and I'm not asking them to divert away from Space Marines but it couldn't hurt to explore with other popular factions, mainly the Eldar? You have the Dark Eldar and Harlequins, which I'm more then grateful but different Craftworlds, that's a whole other ball game.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic here, my bad.
I wasn't trying to single you out, our posts just happened to coincide. I agree with you too, they could certainly test the waters more by releasing subfactions for some of the xenos factions like Orks and Eldar, see how people's wallets react.
Didn't mean to come off defensive; sorry about that.
Yup, it's a damn shame but it always comes down to how the wallet is feeling towards this and that. Maybe if you give the people roided Eldar in Aspect Armor that might drench the boards with everyone's wallets. Hehe
Space Marines are attractive to most starting players simply because they're better than everybody else in the Imperium, they're genetically advanced knights in brightly coloured armour (WHICH YOU CAN MAKE UP!) with huge guns.
Literally I don't know what else there is about Space Marines that wouldn't make you instantly gravitate to them.
Though I do feel sorry for the kids who went, "Look dad! Its Space Marines with demon powers! Get me summa that!" at the dawn of 6th.
Orblivion wrote: 30k started as a marines-only game, and it surpassed the whole of WHFB in a fairly short time period. People like marines, and it is in GW's best interests to continually feed into that.
Just asking them to stop focusing on marines with the vague promise that people will buy other armies just as much is foolish.
However it may also be that if Marines have by far the most focus in terms of narrative, imagery, models and rules then people tend to gravitate towards them - self fulfilling prophercy.
Even with the Marines there is a massively disproportinate focus on a very very few chapters which forces GW have to make even more outlandish flavour units so peope have to but them for their current army - Santa Logan and his sleigh for instance rather than actually making the intersting units form the large numebr of Chapters that are ignored in favour of the snowflake Chapters - and I am not talking about obscure Chapters but the First Founding ones that get virtually nothing - how long has it taken to get asingle Iron hands model - and he's Deathwatch - great - but Deathwatch.
The new Deathwatch set is good as at least it not just the same old Chapters.
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