I got some fresh news for you.
Kill Team boxed game is coming out!
Last time we saw it was 6th edition with rules to play small games and all.
This time we will get:
- A space marines tac squad (the standard one)
- Tau fire warrior strike team (the standard one)
- Small format 40k rule book
- 32 page soft back Kill Team rule book - skirmish tweaks (updated version of the 6th edition rules, expanded rules for team leaders and specialists, missions and inspirations)
Cost: 40 pounds!
It will be out for sale on 3rd September.
FLGS Order Brief (Thanks BrookM!)
KILL TEAM
Warhammer 40.000 kill team is a boxed set of Warhammer 40,000 miniatures and game rules for playing skirmish games on the battlefield of the 41st millennium. The box contains:
· A Space Marine Tactical Squad (48-07)
· A Tau Empire Fire Warrior Strike Team (56-06)
· A small-format softback Warhammer 40.000 The Rules
· A 32-page softback Kill Team booklet, providing full updated rules for playing skirmish missions
The Kill Team booklet is an updated version of the 6th edition rules and features:
· Expanded rules for Kill Team Leaders and Specialists, plus new special rules specifically written for Kill Team games
· Six Kill Team missions
· A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against hordes of enemies or powerful battle tanks
This booklet also includes full rules for the Tactical Squad and the Fire Warrior Strike Team, presented as example Kill Teams with leaders and specialists. The game doesn’t end there though, as customers can use a wide range of products and other armies to play Kill Team
I'd be very interested in this game if it is true.
I just hope they thought it through in regards to army special rules.For example Tyranid synapse. having to keep your guys very close to your leader limits your tactical options enormously, especially for larger 'nid creatures
Fire Warriors are thirty pounds on their own, factor in the discounters and why wouldn't you chip in the extra four or five quid for some marines and the rules etc, same situation as the "Start collecting" stuff, Damn it GW is getting good at getting my money this year.
I'm curious how different this will be from the old Kill Team rules from 5th, or they'll more closely resemble the 4th ed ones. I'm hoping for the 4th ed Kill Team rules since there's so much more to them.
OK, lots of cool box games, and and Kill team small battles rule set is great news. Now for some balance and new plastic superheavies please? Updated Stompa kit? Silver Tower? Warhound? Thunderhawk?
4th ed kill team was fun, especially the paint guides and conversions in the rulebook. That SM scout guide taught me how to do skin by itself. How far the mighty have fallen.
MajorWesJanson wrote: OK, lots of cool box games, and and Kill team small battles rule set is great news. Now for some balance and new plastic superheavies please? Updated Stompa kit? Silver Tower? Warhound? Thunderhawk?
You're asking for a number of things that are way harder and riskier to do than "take two boxes of troops we already have and package them with some reprinted and updated rules"
MajorWesJanson wrote: OK, lots of cool box games, and and Kill team small battles rule set is great news. Now for some balance and new plastic superheavies please? Updated Stompa kit? Silver Tower? Warhound? Thunderhawk?
How about less Superheavies. They already make the game unfun for a lot of people.
I would be interested in another Silver Tower expansion though. It's a cool game.
MajorWesJanson wrote: OK, lots of cool box games, and and Kill team small battles rule set is great news. Now for some balance and new plastic superheavies please? Updated Stompa kit? Silver Tower? Warhound? Thunderhawk?
How about less Superheavies. They already make the game unfun for a lot of people.
The same can be said(and quite frankly in my opinion is more true) of Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures and certain Monstrous Creatures.
And let's be blatantly honest here. It's not "Superheavies" that make the game unfun for a lot of people. It's Imperial Knights. Nobody complains about Stompas or Baneblade hulled vehicles.
Damn roundtree is killing it. He is like the Phil spencer of Xbox just hitting all the right ideas.
Now question? I know current players are eating up all the new box games and mini codexs GW are making but are these new box games bringing new players into the game?
I can only suspect most of the box games are being sold to current players who are eating up the discounts or starting secondary armies, but other than lowering the cost of entry into 40k I haven't seen any fundamental changes that draw in a new player base.
However I'm hopeful all the community outreach stuff they do ends up building stronger game communities again and that the new edition incorporates community based feedback changes.
This box set will need some terrain however I always found killteam better suited to a zone mortalis style board not sure how they are going to incorporate that density of terrain.
gungo wrote: Damn roundtree is killing it. He is like the Phil spencer of Xbox just hitting all the right ideas.
Now question? I know current players are eating up all the new box games and mini codexs GW are making but are these new box games bringing new players into the game?
I can only suspect most of the box games are being sold to current players who are eating up the discounts or starting secondary armies, but other than lowering the cost of entry into 40k I haven't seen any fundamental changes that draw in a new player base.
However I'm hopeful all the community outreach stuff they do ends up building stronger game communities again and that the new edition incorporates community based feedback changes.
I do think it helps when you have somebody from off the street walk in and you have your store manager and/or 40k player answering questions about the hobby and can point to the Start Collecting box and say that you can build everything in the box and use that as a small army. If only GW can fix the steep price for the BRB and army codexes. Fitting thin BRB into box sets like this one and Death Masque is a good way to go with it but unless there are sets like this for every army then its still difficult for new players to get models and rules for the faction they want for a cost effective price. Honestly I hope with 8th edition they just go away from trying to profit off the BRB and sells them for near cost and provides the rules free digitally.
I would kill for a really thoughtful, expanded Kill Team. I don't expect one, per se, but a Kill Team, given a Necromunda treatment, with campaign rules, a more thought into each armies skills, etc...
It would be a terrific introduction for newer players to the hobby, as well.
As I said in the other thread, I just finished buidling a Kill Team (with enough conversion work for a whole army...geez) and the models would be usefull foe my brothers team. And if KT gets support that AoS skirmish ruleset might be real as well. Nice all around.
But Gorechosen might be more fun as a game than 7th edition bloat and the fan rules for teams are already pretty nice.
This is a cool move, but unless "revamped" means "we pretty much copied the Strike Force rules from FW wholesale", I'll just stick with the far superior Strike Force rules from FW.
gungo wrote: Damn roundtree is killing it. He is like the Phil spencer of Xbox just hitting all the right ideas.
Now question? I know current players are eating up all the new box games and mini codexs GW are making but are these new box games bringing new players into the game?
I can only suspect most of the box games are being sold to current players who are eating up the discounts or starting secondary armies, but other than lowering the cost of entry into 40k I haven't seen any fundamental changes that draw in a new player base.
However I'm hopeful all the community outreach stuff they do ends up building stronger game communities again and that the new edition incorporates community based feedback changes.
I do think it helps when you have somebody from off the street walk in and you have your store manager and/or 40k player answering questions about the hobby and can point to the Start Collecting box and say that you can build everything in the box and use that as a small army. If only GW can fix the steep price for the BRB and army codexes. Fitting thin BRB into box sets like this one and Death Masque is a good way to go with it but unless there are sets like this for every army then its still difficult for new players to get models and rules for the faction they want for a cost effective price. Honestly I hope with 8th edition they just go away from trying to profit off the BRB and sells them for near cost and provides the rules free digitally.
Well rumours are that dataslates in 8th are getting the AoS treatment and will all be online. However if AoS is the future of 40k product design you can expect entry rules for free and the more robust complex rules in a fairly reasonable price streamlined rulebook. That's about the best to hope for and why I'd expect a slow upgrowth of a new player base. But this is largely dependent on how well and long GW can drive community based gaming.
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Yodhrin wrote: This is a cool move, but unless "revamped" means "we pretty much copied the Strike Force rules from FW wholesale", I'll just stick with the far superior Strike Force rules from FW.
To be fair the box games are created by a division in FW not GW. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will incorporate strike force rules though.
If they include the same minirulebook as Death Masque and others, this will get me back into the game, I think, even if I still have to buy 3+ really stupidly overpriced codexes for my various armies.
I don't really *need* another 10 tactical marines or a bunch of fire warriors, but I'd rather get those than a whole heck of a lot of Deathwatch and a bunch of Harlequins.
What's the big deal here? We already have a Kill Teams rule book. So are these going to be new rules or just the same rules with minis thrown in?
If it's with the same rules with minis just thrown in, why are people excited? I mean you could be playing now if you wanted. It looks like a lot of people don't play with the current Kill Team rules, so why get excited for something that is already out?
If it's with new rules, I am worried here. That will mean at least when it comes to GW books, they are outdated one to two years. If it is new rules that would mean the current Kill Team rules didn't last long.
Then again, will a new edition next year if true, invalidate these new rules? It just seems like buyer be ware when buying GW books these days. At least with the minis they make the price of the book more easy to swallow.
Davor wrote: What's the big deal here? We already have a Kill Teams rule book. So are these going to be new rules or just the same rules with minis thrown in?
If it's with the same rules with minis just thrown in, why are people excited? I mean you could be playing now if you wanted. It looks like a lot of people don't play with the current Kill Team rules, so why get excited for something that is already out?
If it's with new rules, I am worried here. That will mean at least when it comes to GW books, they are outdated one to two years. If it is new rules that would mean the current Kill Team rules didn't last long.
Then again, will a new edition next year if true, invalidate these new rules? It just seems like buyer be ware when buying GW books these days. At least with the minis they make the price of the book more easy to swallow.
Even if this set is just Mini main rules and a new Kill team rules an edition change won't matter. You have the two books you need to keep playing until you want to upgrade.
MajorTom11 wrote: They need to take it easy on the whole kill team name thing... that's 3 products called kill team out in 2-3 months. Differentiate GW!
ultimentra wrote: Awwww yessss I've been really wanting to see how Admech/Sktiarii does at small points. This will be a perfect excuse to test that out. Guard too.
Vanguard backed by a Dragoon or a Ballistarius worked wonders for me.
As for Guard, I miss the old codex, when I could deploy Harker and Marbo in the same game, to delicious effect.
Interesting but I have no need of space marine or firewarriors. I have my army purchases planned out for the next two years. It includes grabbing some start collecting boxes two of them. I wonder if there will be a story to this?
Gamgee wrote: Interesting but I have no need of space marine or firewarriors. I have my army purchases planned out for the next two years. It includes grabbing some start collecting boxes two of them. I wonder if there will be a story to this?
Based on the FB teaser, I'd say it'll have something to do with the Raven Guard going after the Tau. Possibly a stealth mission to take out an ethereal, or maybe they're really going to go all in on the plot advancement and go after Farsight (I doubt they'll be successful there, though).
It's probably, just like with the other boxed games out there, just a small stand-alone operation or the like, nothing too involved with the overall story line.
Bit odd, but really looking forward to the box art for this one. The last few boxed games have had these really neat pieces of art up front instead of the usual contents of the box in photograph form.
I would love to see this be a first step toward revision of the WH40K rules but that's probably too much to hope for.
I would buy this in a heartbeat if it meets these criteria:
- Entry-level item for 40K (simplified rules, not as simple as Battle for Vedros but not the 7th core rules, either)
- Campaign system with character advancement (sort of like Necromunda)
It won't invalidate the current Kill Team rules available through Black Library, of course (you can still use those if you want), but given that the rumors are using the same "Kill Team" name I would assume this to be a replacement or update to those rules, rather than a 40K'ed Necromunda-ish thingy.
Oh well. We'll see what we get. Looking forward to the reveal.
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GoatboyBeta wrote: Sounds promising. Although it would be even better if they followed the Stormcloud attack model and had several boxes with different match ups.
This would be awesome.
Almost like the Deathstorm and Stormclaw campaign boxes, but with Kill Team rules included instead of a campaign book.
Hmm, it seems like a good link with the first White Dwarf talking about Tau.
Official skirmish game in the 40k universe? Yes, please. And if it is with simple rules that allow us to play with three players without having to wait too long before doing something...it would be quite good.
ruhe.bryan wrote: I would love to see this be a first step toward revision of the WH40K rules but that's probably too much to hope for.
I would buy this in a heartbeat if it meets these criteria:
- Entry-level item for 40K (simplified rules, not as simple as Battle for Vedros but not the 7th core rules, either)
- Campaign system with character advancement (sort of like Necromunda)
It won't invalidate the current Kill Team rules available through Black Library, of course (you can still use those if you want), but given that the rumors are using the same "Kill Team" name I would assume this to be a replacement or update to those rules, rather than a 40K'ed Necromunda-ish thingy.
Oh well. We'll see what we get. Looking forward to the reveal.
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GoatboyBeta wrote: Sounds promising. Although it would be even better if they followed the Stormcloud attack model and had several boxes with different match ups.
This would be awesome.
Almost like the Deathstorm and Stormclaw campaign boxes, but with Kill Team rules included instead of a campaign book.
It's possible with 8th Ed rumoured in Q2 of next year that it may be a simplified ruleset of 8th but doubtful. I guess it depends on how different they expect 8th Ed to be.
The current rumor is - 32 page soft back Kill Team rule book - skirmish tweaks (updated version of the 6th edition rules, expanded rules for team leaders and specialists, missions and inspirations)
So an update to the 2 year old rules. This doesn't sound like necromunda expanded rules for characters.
Yodhrin wrote: This is a cool move, but unless "revamped" means "we pretty much copied the Strike Force rules from FW wholesale", I'll just stick with the far superior Strike Force rules from FW.
FYI - my current version (5e? I thought it was 6e) eBook copy of Kill Team is 29 pages + 2 pages of "buy more digital books and follow us on Facebook/Twitter". Count does not include the cover.
I would buy this in a heartbeat if it meets these criteria:
- Entry-level item for 40K (simplified rules, not as simple as Battle for Vedros but not the 7th core rules, either)
Why has nobody even mention the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules? Do people not know that Kill Team has had a super active, fan authored set of rules for many years now? Do people not know that it is continually updated as new codexes release and as the community finds issues? That it is already just a modification framework for the current edition of 40k? That it has codexes to match all the official (and a few unnofocial) codexes in current 40K and a complete campaign ruleset?
The official box set sounds interesting, but it sounds much like a generic take on what the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules already do (and have been doing) for many years now, including a very active Facebook group. It's the only way I play 40k anymore.
Yodhrin wrote: This is a cool move, but unless "revamped" means "we pretty much copied the Strike Force rules from FW wholesale", I'll just stick with the far superior Strike Force rules from FW.
Where can one find these Strike Force rules?
HH3: Extermination. They're presented as being a way to play out the aftermath of the Dropsite Massacre with small bands of Loyalists and Traitors hunting each other, but I've found the rules work fine with every 30K & 40K army I've tried them with so far. I'm presently planning how to use them for the basis of a not-GorkaMorka campaign.
Kalamadea wrote: Why has nobody even mention the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules? Do people not know that Kill Team has had a super active, fan authored set of rules for many years now? Do people not know that it is continually updated as new codexes release and as the community finds issues? That it is already just a modification framework for the current edition of 40k? That it has codexes to match all the official (and a few unnofocial) codexes in current 40K and a complete campaign ruleset?
The official box set sounds interesting, but it sounds much like a generic take on what the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules already do (and have been doing) for many years now, including a very active Facebook group. It's the only way I play 40k anymore.
The Kill Team rules from Heralds of Ruin are a lot of fun. My group occasionally runs a game using the lists from Heralds of Ruin (they are much more interesting than the GWKT lists), and the GW rules (we probably would use the full HoR rules, but since we probably only play once every few months, and have a regular Mordheim campaign going, we felt we wanted something quick that wasn't campaign based). That said, I have played a couple games with the full HoR rules and they are great, I definitely second that people should check them out.
Kalamadea wrote: Why has nobody even mention the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules? Do people not know that Kill Team has had a super active, fan authored set of rules for many years now? Do people not know that it is continually updated as new codexes release and as the community finds issues? That it is already just a modification framework for the current edition of 40k? That it has codexes to match all the official (and a few unnofocial) codexes in current 40K and a complete campaign ruleset?
The official box set sounds interesting, but it sounds much like a generic take on what the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules already do (and have been doing) for many years now, including a very active Facebook group. It's the only way I play 40k anymore.
Many 40k players won't touch homebrew stuff with a 10 foot pole. It doesn't matter if it's the greatest thing known to man, they'll only play "official" GW books. Even FW is still viewed with suspicion in some areas.
I know in the past when I've tried to convince people to play this or 1 page 40k it was like pulling teeth. They'll claim they hate GW's rules all day but the moment you provide them an alternative they turn their noses up at it. I have no idea why, that's just how it is.
Coincidentally, a guy in my local club is starting up a narrative Kill Team tournament running the HoR rules in September, and I just signed up with my Orks. Perfect timing! Started reading the rules and building lists, and it looks super fun.
Many 40k players won't touch homebrew stuff with a 10 foot pole. It doesn't matter if it's the greatest thing known to man, they'll only play "official" GW books. Even FW is still viewed with suspicion in some areas.
I know in the past when I've tried to convince people to play this or 1 page 40k it was like pulling teeth. They'll claim they hate GW's rules all day but the moment you provide them an alternative they turn their noses up at it. I have no idea why, that's just how it is.
I see that as well. I just laugh when someone says "play by the book" but then changes something that is not buy the book. I guess it's only "their" way to play and heaven forbid anyone else wants to add extra fun.
BrookM wrote: Problem with homebrew in some communities is that it will be seen as a green light to some participants to just really make gak up as they go.
Mostly because it's a slippery slope. You allow one homebrew army list or even unit change, and you have to allow the next. As long as it's within reason of course... but then "within reason" stretches over time.
Everyone knows you won't end up with "my homebrew that's just the same army but everything has double the wounds", but the fear is there nonetheless.
Plus, if something goes sideways, it's much easier to blame GW's rules. If someone brings a homebrew and it ends up being OP, then people start mudslinging about cheating and stuff like that. Not everyone has the patience to play games with a homebrew army a hundred times in a row to work out the kinks and balance it.
Many 40k players won't touch homebrew stuff with a 10 foot pole. It doesn't matter if it's the greatest thing known to man, they'll only play "official" GW books. Even FW is still viewed with suspicion in some areas.
I know in the past when I've tried to convince people to play this or 1 page 40k it was like pulling teeth. They'll claim they hate GW's rules all day but the moment you provide them an alternative they turn their noses up at it. I have no idea why, that's just how it is.
Yeah, unfortunately that is definitely the case in a lot of GW gaming groups. A good buddy of mine (who now happens to be in my gaming group and plays all kinds of games) refused to play any games that weren't made by GW even, and that was before they started being decent again (Roundtree era).
I think a lot of homebrew/ Rules only debates really just come down to the type of people you play with. We played quite a few games of HoR Kill Team between the eight or so of us, and we didn't notice anything that was terribly unbalanced. But we are more of a beer and pretzel type group and mostly just play themed lists and things that we think would be fun. I'm sure if you attempted to make some busted lists in HoR it would be really quite easy, but not any easier than making a busted list in 7th Ed. 40k. I think a lot of people that try to power game are turned away by homebrew stuff because 1) They don't know the meta intimately and therefore can't craft a hyper competitive army for it 2). It's a lot harder to net-list a very strong army. In essence I think it just comes down to what you want out of a game.
All that aside and a bit more on topic, I'm giving GW major thumbs up on this release. I'm happy to see them trying something different and releasing packages that are actually fair deals.
No probs - I'm not familiar with the newer Tau stuff so I just assumed.
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Kalamadea wrote: Why has nobody even mention the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules? Do people not know that Kill Team has had a super active, fan authored set of rules for many years now? Do people not know that it is continually updated as new codexes release and as the community finds issues? That it is already just a modification framework for the current edition of 40k? That it has codexes to match all the official (and a few unnofocial) codexes in current 40K and a complete campaign ruleset?
I'm going to go with "No, lots of people didn't/don't know about those." I'm passingly familiar with ITEN, but never heard of these before your post. Thanks for bringing it up and adding the links.
One of the major downsides of the store-focused gaming group mentality is that there is generally a strong pressure against third-party rules that the store does not sell. Things like One Page 40K are not in the store's best interest to support, since it removes incentives to buy 40K books.
Medium of Death wrote: So if Kharn is being shown on the 3rd does that mean we're likely to see some other killteam related releases? Maybe redone Berserkers?
Redone Berserkers would be awesome, though I get the feeling the boxed set is the only Kill Team release we will be getting. It would be really nice if they did a series of Kill Team boxes kind of like a start collecting box, for say 50 USD which had a complete 200 or 250 point kill team in them. It would be a good way for new players to get into the hobby and nice for hobbyists who just want to paint up a few models for a range.
Ben2 wrote: Any indication of whether the points have changed for Kill Team or if they have included alternate play modes?
The KT rulebook is pretty thin, and changing point cost for every unit would be a lot of work, so I don't think they've done it.
I assume it will just say stuff like "look at your codex for available options and point cost".
It will probably be a set of core rules that are more appropriate, and a new FOC that matches the low point count. I doubt there will even be a list of units that can be used for each army (to exclude things that wouldn't make sense in a KT fight), or rewrite of special rules (Tau's supporting fire might be strongly affected if overwatch in KT is different than in the BRB).
I think skirmish type games are vastly imporved by good campaign rules (henchmen that die, heros that lvl up etc.). GW did that in the past on some specialist games, so there's still a chance we might see it here.
The KT rules work pretty well with most codex books, as they for the most part all have one or two go-to units that are ideal for these scenarios with global restrictions in place to prevent people from taking nothing but vehicles, taking certain vehicles, or certain units and the like.
As for the FOC, it will (hopefully) remain the same:
0-1 Elites
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast Attack
Automatically Appended Next Post: Only fix I am hoping for is the ability to give your leader a specialist skill instead of a random one, as leaders usually benefit the most from this.
I am quite interested in this. I got sick of the 40K game many years ago, but I still love the universe.
I am really amazed at how many "previously-40Kers" seem to be appearing in the forums and elsewhere online.
GW is in a really great spot to potentially win back a lot of customers (wow that sounds so business-y) if they play their cards right with this new Kill Team box and, on a larger scale, the 8th edition of 40K.
I am excited for what the future holds and really hope that the new changes improve the game (in my very-subjective viewpoint, of course).
I think skirmish type games are vastly imporved by good campaign rules (henchmen that die, heros that lvl up etc.). GW did that in the past on some specialist games, so there's still a chance we might see it here.
I definitely agree. I'm hoping that the few changes they make are some simple campaign rules and add a few more missions.
I don't recall of the top of my head if this edition you had to buy minimum squads in your FOC, but If that is the case they change to making each model have a point cost (divide the squad total by X), so that if you want a bike in your FA slot you don't need to spend nearly half your points on three.
Medium of Death wrote: ...does that mean we're likely to see some other killteam related releases?...
...It would be really nice if they did a series of Kill Team boxes kind of like a start collecting box, for say 50 USD which had a complete 200 or 250 point kill team in them. It would be a good way for new players to get into the hobby and nice for hobbyists who just want to paint up a few models for a range.
I actually do think that this is what we're going to see.
The Kill Team box was listed on the retailer sheets as "Kill Team (Core Set)," which to me sounds like there are other related releases planned (I hope).
Someone somewhere mentioned how cool this would be if they release a few different boxes for this, each containing different opposing forces, kind of like what they did with the Stormcloud Attack sets.
As a PS, the MSRP on the Kill Team core set is rumored to be $65.
...I'm also getting pretty excited thinking about the possibilities for this.
Buy a Kill Team box with a faction you like (or if you like both, even better!), and buy a Start Collecting box as well for that same faction... You're on your way to an army, and even if you never plan to play 40K, you'll still have more options for your Kill Team! This is goooood marketing. Appealing to me for sure!
I would be great to see $25-$30 box "starter"sets with a 5-10 man squad with added customization sprue...maybe a mini book army list for the faction too...
I actually do think that this is what we're going to see.
The Kill Team box was listed on the retailer sheets as "Kill Team (Core Set)," which to me sounds like there are other related releases planned (I hope).
Someone somewhere mentioned how cool this would be if they release a few different boxes for this, each containing different opposing forces, kind of like what they did with the Stormcloud Attack sets.
As a PS, the MSRP on the Kill Team core set is rumored to be $65.
...I'm also getting pretty excited thinking about the possibilities for this.
Buy a Kill Team box with a faction you like (or if you like both, even better!), and buy a Start Collecting box as well for that same faction... You're on your way to an army, and even if you never plan to play 40K, you'll still have more options for your Kill Team! This is goooood marketing. Appealing to me for sure!
Huh. I wasn't aware that the Kill Team box was listed as a Core Set. That would be fantastic if GW did what you suggested. I would love to be able to pick up several different KT boxes. It would be neat if each one included different missions as well (ideally not faction specific so that they could be used across all KT bands).
Hopefully GW will make Inquisition playable (through an update in the KT rules or maybe at some point release a non-half a**ed codex) and Genestealer Cult as well. I suppose there is always HoR to play the more interesting factions in 40k.
Medium of Death wrote: ...does that mean we're likely to see some other killteam related releases?...
...It would be really nice if they did a series of Kill Team boxes kind of like a start collecting box, for say 50 USD which had a complete 200 or 250 point kill team in them. It would be a good way for new players to get into the hobby and nice for hobbyists who just want to paint up a few models for a range.
I actually do think that this is what we're going to see.
The Kill Team box was listed on the retailer sheets as "Kill Team (Core Set)," which to me sounds like there are other related releases planned (I hope).
Someone somewhere mentioned how cool this would be if they release a few different boxes for this, each containing different opposing forces, kind of like what they did with the Stormcloud Attack sets.
As a PS, the MSRP on the Kill Team core set is rumored to be $65.
...I'm also getting pretty excited thinking about the possibilities for this.
Buy a Kill Team box with a faction you like (or if you like both, even better!), and buy a Start Collecting box as well for that same faction... You're on your way to an army, and even if you never plan to play 40K, you'll still have more options for your Kill Team! This is goooood marketing. Appealing to me for sure!
"Core Set" in GW terms means a set that is to be considered a "Must Stock" if I remember correctly from a retailer explaining it before.
BrookM wrote: Inquisition is somewhat viable, as long as you stick to henchmen.
Assuming you want to run 12 models maximum and a vehicle it can be done, and unless you buy a Jokero or a bunch of extra junk for your acolytes it is still a stretch to fill out those points.
The FOC for Kill Teams (and the Inquisition Codex itself) makes Inquisition a pretty lame duck - which is unfortunate because they are one of the 40k factions that really should be involved in small scale engagements as opposed to large battles.
Man Kan, I hope you aren't remembering correctly (though you probably are), I was starting to get my hopes up for some actual Kill Team support .
Ben2 wrote: Any indication of whether the points have changed for Kill Team or if they have included alternate play modes?
The KT rulebook is pretty thin, and changing point cost for every unit would be a lot of work, so I don't think they've done it.
I assume it will just say stuff like "look at your codex for available options and point cost".
It will probably be a set of core rules that are more appropriate, and a new FOC that matches the low point count. I doubt there will even be a list of units that can be used for each army (to exclude things that wouldn't make sense in a KT fight), or rewrite of special rules (Tau's supporting fire might be strongly affected if overwatch in KT is different than in the BRB).
I think skirmish type games are vastly imporved by good campaign rules (henchmen that die, heros that lvl up etc.). GW did that in the past on some specialist games, so there's still a chance we might see it here.
I meant is it still a 200 point force. Because I can put a couple of those together now. For example pirate orks.
This could lead to a lot of nice little themed warbands. Also a dozen models aren't many to paint so hopefully reluctant painters won't get sick of them.
Medium of Death wrote: ...does that mean we're likely to see some other killteam related releases?...
...It would be really nice if they did a series of Kill Team boxes kind of like a start collecting box, for say 50 USD which had a complete 200 or 250 point kill team in them. It would be a good way for new players to get into the hobby and nice for hobbyists who just want to paint up a few models for a range.
I actually do think that this is what we're going to see.
The Kill Team box was listed on the retailer sheets as "Kill Team (Core Set)," which to me sounds like there are other related releases planned (I hope).
Someone somewhere mentioned how cool this would be if they release a few different boxes for this, each containing different opposing forces, kind of like what they did with the Stormcloud Attack sets.
As a PS, the MSRP on the Kill Team core set is rumored to be $65.
...I'm also getting pretty excited thinking about the possibilities for this.
Buy a Kill Team box with a faction you like (or if you like both, even better!), and buy a Start Collecting box as well for that same faction... You're on your way to an army, and even if you never plan to play 40K, you'll still have more options for your Kill Team! This is goooood marketing. Appealing to me for sure!
"Core Set" in GW terms means a set that is to be considered a "Must Stock" if I remember correctly from a retailer explaining it before.
I expect that you're right but I really hope that's not true haha.
I too find myself dangerously close to being sucked back in by GW after almost 10 years 'out'. All those board game releases - regardless of how good or bad they might be - present themselves as a very convenient way for me to buy my way back into the universe and I have a Guard kill team good to go (heck the getting started:AM box practically IS my 200 point list.. albeit with the Inquisitor swapped out for something stompier). I'll be picking this up for sure.
Gimme a $100 box with a softback rulebook, softback mini format Codex with minimal fluff and rules, and a unit of troops and an HQ for each army, and I'd be happy.
Maybe asking too far in advance but will Kill Team require the core rule book and/or codexes to play? That is, I'm wondering if this would be a stand-alone game.
The boxed set comes with both a small format core rulebook and a Kill-team rule booklet, plus no doubt rules for both squads included with the game, so it's still a good deal.
Huh. Thanks for that info. I got the 7th ed small rulebook with Death Masque and I don't even play 40k any more. Reading through, it sure seems a heckuva lot more complicated than 3rd or even 5th.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It might be like the Silver Tower where we'll have "expansion packs" that are repacks of existing boxes.
That I would not mind, even if they are repacks of things I already have multiple copies of.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. So far Silver Tower has an expansion pack. Singular. And it didn't even come with the rules for the models in the box.
Yes, I know the rules for them are in the main Silver Tower book, but still having cards come with it (like the Quest character packs of old) would have made it 10 times more practical and saved me having to fart about in a stationary store looking for card and glue to make my own.
BrookM wrote: The boxed set comes with both a small format core rulebook and a Kill-team rule booklet, plus no doubt rules for both squads included with the game, so it's still a good deal.
Where is this info coming from? Do we have pics? Do we have anything besides what's in the OP?
If the Core Set does end up being something they expand up (which I hope), and they do expansions for it I think they could make a lot of money on it.
Do something like 60 USD - two minimum sized troop choices with some upgrade options and either a minimum fast attack or elites choice with a couple missions and a mini-codex for the faction (Just the faction specific rules and the units/unit upgrades that can be used in Kill Teams- as I think GW wouldn't put the full codex in the boxes for fear of cutting into codex sales).
I'm probably just thinking too much into it, and it will likely just be a one shot deal, but here's hoping.
We were playing Kill Team shortly after 7th dropped. Lots of fun.
It will be nice to have an actual rulebook and not a stapled together print out of the rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. So far Silver Tower has an expansion pack. Singular. And it didn't even come with the rules for the models in the box.
Yes, I know the rules for them are in the main Silver Tower book, but still having cards come with it (like the Quest character packs of old) would have made it 10 times more practical and saved me having to fart about in a stationary store looking for card and glue to make my own.
A man can dream can't he?
Still though I wouldn't be surprised. The pricepoint and box contents are suspiciously similar to that of Lost Patrol, so I wouldn't be surprised if they do make several more like this.
Sabotage! wrote: If the Core Set does end up being something they expand up (which I hope), and they do expansions for it I think they could make a lot of money on it.
Do something like 60 USD - two minimum sized troop choices with some upgrade options and either a minimum fast attack or elites choice with a couple missions and a mini-codex for the faction (Just the faction specific rules and the units/unit upgrades that can be used in Kill Teams- as I think GW wouldn't put the full codex in the boxes for fear of cutting into codex sales).
I'm probably just thinking too much into it, and it will likely just be a one shot deal, but here's hoping.
Way too much wistful thinking there.
If they'd do expansions I'd see them do more missions or themes via the White Dwarf, but nothing like that, as you might as well get a Start Collecting box then.
BrookM wrote: Way too much wistful thinking there. t
If they'd do expansions I'd see them do more missions or themes via the White Dwarf, but nothing like that, as you might as well get a Start Collecting box then.
Lately GW has had me on the optimist foot, a rare doing for them in the last 10 years or so.
I think if they actually do expand on the box it will be pretty much exactly as you say (New missions in White Dwarf, maybe some variant of Kill Team "Zone Mortalis," a one page campaign rule add-on, etc). If the box sells well enough I could see them maybe doing another or two pretty much identical to this one, with some marine variant versus some other type of Xenos or traitor.
I feel hopeful as well, though aplenty will probably call it something else altogether.
I've pre-ordered mine at my FLGS today, who confirmed the contents of the box as being the same as listed in the OP.
Here's the brief he got:
KILL TEAM
Warhammer 40.000 kill team is a boxed set of Warhammer 40,000 miniatures and game rules for playing skirmish games on the battlefield of the 41st millennium. The box contains:
· A Space Marine Tactical Squad (48-07)
· A Tau Empire Fire Warrior Strike Team (56-06)
· A small-format softback Warhammer 40.000 The Rules
· A 32-page softback Kill Team booklet, providing full updated rules for playing skirmish missions
The Kill Team booklet is an updated version of the 6th edition rules and features:
· Expanded rules for Kill Team Leaders and Specialists, plus new special rules specifically written for Kill Team games
· Six Kill Team missions
· A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against hordes of enemies or powerful battle tanks
This booklet also includes full rules for the Tactical Squad and the Fire Warrior Strike Team, presented as example Kill Teams with leaders and specialists. The game doesn’t end there though, as customers can use a wide range of products and other armies to play Kill Team
So, rejoice, the set also comes with the FULL RULES for both sets included, so no need to buy relevant army books just yet, making for a great gateway product that allows you to play 40k fast and loose without needing too many models.
Warhammer 40.000 kill team is a boxed set of Warhammer 40,000 miniatures and game rules for playing skirmish games on the battlefield of the 41st millennium. The box contains:
· A Space Marine Tactical Squad (48-07)
· A Tau Empire Fire Warrior Strike Team (56-06)
· A small-format softback Warhammer 40.000 The Rules
· A 32-page softback Kill Team booklet, providing full updated rules for playing skirmish missions
The Kill Team booklet is an updated version of the 6th edition rules and features:
· Expanded rules for Kill Team Leaders and Specialists, plus new special rules specifically written for Kill Team games
· Six Kill Team missions
· A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against horses of enemies of powerful battle tanks
This booklet also includes full rules for the Tactical Squad and the Fire Warrior Strike Team, presented as example Kill Teams with leaders and specialists. The game doesn’t end there though, as customers can use a wide range of products and other armies to play Kill Team
Focusing on this underlined bit, I just want to say how happy I am to see this sort of thing. One of my favorite parts of AoS is that they have the "official" way to play the game, but there are also sections in The General's Handbook depicting other ways to play outside of the norm, because different people want different things, from narrative to multiplayer to tournaments.
The fact that GW is putting in rules for the standard play and then also suggesting changes that might make people happy is a subtle thing but huge in my eyes.
Verviedi wrote:Gimme a $100 box with a softback rulebook, softback mini format Codex with minimal fluff and rules, and a unit of troops and an HQ for each army, and I'd be happy.
I see what you did. This way we get plastic Sisters right?
Verviedi wrote:Gimme a $100 box with a softback rulebook, softback mini format Codex with minimal fluff and rules, and a unit of troops and an HQ for each army, and I'd be happy.
I see what you did. This way we get plastic Sisters right?
This sounds like an excellent deal. I really enjoy playing Kill Team, and I don't have the new Space Marine Tactical Squad (I have so many marines!). Also, there is a tau player in my gaming group.
I'm hoping the Kill-Team rules will come separately, as I have more than my fill of Astartes. Tau don't do anything for me whatsoever, so for this one I'm out.
Wow 65$ is a great price for the buy-in to 40k, just about the price of an off-the-shelf new video game when you factor in sales tax in the US. I really hope this gets popular in my area, getting in multiple smaller games of 40k per week sounds nice as opposed to one large game every month or two.
angelofvengeance wrote: I'm hoping the Kill-Team rules will come separately, as I have more than my fill of Astartes. Tau don't do anything for me whatsoever, so for this one I'm out.
I have no real use for either as well, but depending on the stuff included for both factions I may either keep them around as demo material, or sell them off to others in the store.
angelofvengeance wrote: I'm hoping the Kill-Team rules will come separately, as I have more than my fill of Astartes. Tau don't do anything for me whatsoever, so for this one I'm out.
You can buy it separately already, unless you already have it and want the new version. If you don't have the current version, I am just curious, what makes you want it now when you didn't have it already? Reason I am asking is because I guess I have been trained we have to play with bigger points, and would like to see why Kill Teams is so good.
Its fun to play at much smaller points value. get more games in.
I see this as more like the X-wing Core set.
Hopefully the price will pull me back in to WH40K been gone awhile.
Plus, its that extra excuse to paint guys with a little more love. I can knock out ten Tacticals in a soul-less afternoon at this point... OR I can treat those ten as a Kill Team and lovingly paint up each one to be unique, and be an individual, rather than another ten guys.
I get bored of armies, and big/giant painting projects, and after having spent six months painting huge Seraphon and Tomb King armies, for Sigmar, i'm totally down with assembling/painting ten different Kill Teams across a wide variety of armies.
Kill-team is 40k on a budget, it's fast and loose, using just a handful of models that can represent a bunch of scrubs tasked with a mission, or as others have mentioned, kick-ass conversions and paint jobs done to make each model in the squad as unique and individual as possible, turning them into those grizzled veterans who do this sort of thing for a living.
Kill Team is Kelly's Heroes, Guns of Navarone, the Dirty Dozen, the first half of Predator, the Expendables, but with your dudes and dudettes.
Depending on how much the rules are tweaked I may just revive my own squad of badasses led by my Harker stand-in, the Hellraisers will wreak havoc once more!
BrookM wrote: Kill-team is 40k on a budget, it's fast and loose, using just a handful of models that can represent a bunch of scrubs tasked with a mission, or as others have mentioned, kick-ass conversions and paint jobs done to make each model in the squad as unique and individual as possible, turning them into those grizzled veterans who do this sort of thing for a living.
Kill Team is Kelly's Heroes, Guns of Navarone, the Dirty Dozen, the first half of Predator, the Expendables, but with your dudes and dudettes.
Depending on how much the rules are tweaked I may just revive my own squad of badasses led by my Harker stand-in, the Hellraisers will wreak havoc once more!
Spoiler:
Dang it Brook I had no interest in this, but now after reading this, I am interested. Hopefully the book is sold separately as well or at least I can get the iPad version then. That sounds like fun.
I used to love HoR Kill Team. It was the only way to get some 40K in without going nuts over the large scale and time involved with a big game, and we could play a few games in an evening.
That's until we met the disparity between lists like the Inquisitorial warband and Tau, or the 'nids. But aside from those uneven matchups, it's been pretty great. And I could almost, almost, convince my friends to paint their warbands.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
Many 40k players won't touch homebrew stuff with a 10 foot pole. It doesn't matter if it's the greatest thing known to man, they'll only play "official" GW books. Even FW is still viewed with suspicion in some areas.
I know in the past when I've tried to convince people to play this or 1 page 40k it was like pulling teeth. They'll claim they hate GW's rules all day but the moment you provide them an alternative they turn their noses up at it. I have no idea why, that's just how it is.
I think it's just old fashioned hierarchical thinking. GW is the leader who supplies the game to them, the follower. Actually playing an alternative would be at least a tacit admission that their chosen leader has let them down in some way. Or that they were wrong in their choice of leader. It's okay to complain about their leader, but to actually stop following?
I also think that most 40k players have not taken ownership of their own hobbies. They still see it as something that is provided to them rather than something they do.
And the last factor is probably a lack of trust both in themselves and others. Maybe they know that if the rules were up to them, they'd make all their stuff awesome and everyone else's suck. So other people must want the same sort of thing. They may claim they hate GW's rules all day long, but at least they know where everyone stands thanks to GW being the outside authority.
TheWaspinator wrote:One of the major downsides of the store-focused gaming group mentality is that there is generally a strong pressure against third-party rules that the store does not sell. Things like One Page 40K are not in the store's best interest to support, since it removes incentives to buy 40K books.
Yeah. Games are better when commercial concerns don't take priority over the fun. Gamer run clubs can be so much better. And with the current state of social media, it's never been easier to find potential participants.
After 7th Edition dropped, my gaming group decided to run Kill Team with the then existing kill team rules. They worked well as is. The only thing I think really needs to be updated is Kill Team imposed a special rule that Necrons needing to be within 2" of another Necron to use Reanimation Protocols, which made sense with the old Necron Codex, but not with the 7th Edition one.
So does the current KT rules just have you build models based on their entries in their respective Codices, or can you build WYWIWYG models more freely?
IE... do I need to build five generic Tacticals to build one with a Flamer? Or is it really about how you choose to gear up YOUR Kill Team?
I'd love to finally get to put my Bitz Box to work. :-p
That actually sounds ultra restrictive. I mean, I get it, but it also stands to reason I might be able to field one min units of Grey Knight Terminators, and that would be my entire team. :-p
Maybe I will give the Heralds of Ruin stuff a look. I like, at least at a glance, the granularity of taking ONE Terminator, etc...
Uhm, no. No 2+ armour saves allowed, no vehicles or models with more than three wounds / HP and a vehicle may not have more than 33 armour (add F + S + R together).
BrookM wrote: You are still restricted to the minimum squad sizes and equipment restrictions as found in the codex.
I think this is mainly done to prevent some people from fielding nothing but a certain type of model or weapon type.
Exactly this. Chaos actually does well as their basic troop (CSM) can take 2 special weapons in a minimum squad. Black Templar Crusader Squads can take a heavy and a special in a minimum squad, as can Sisters of Battle. Plus, all three can hide in a mobile bunker (rhino).
I just recalled that the Death Watch lets you take a single Terminator with whatever weapon you want (Forgot no 2+ save), or a single bike, or a single jump pack dude.
I've been working on my own Deathwatch kill team using a single box of veterans, shelving the Imperial Guard team as well.. it just don't work.
Just remember, no 2+ armour saves allowed, though bikers and assault marines are great ways to bolster a Deathwatch kill team.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Oh... got it. Yeah. It sounds like in most cases, official Kill Team is really just a couple min Troop choice units against one another?
You can pick from elites (0-1), troops (0-2) or fast attack (0-1), so it still gives you quite a lot to work with, depending on the army in question.
One of the better aspects about KT is that it can allow for the use of units one would normally not use as often in bigger games. Plus, they may work better with the theme of the game as well, looking at you, Space Marine Scouts and Tempestus Scions.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Oh... got it. Yeah. It sounds like in most cases, official Kill Team is really just a couple min Troop choice units against one another?
Mostly. You can take 0-2 troops, 0-1 Elite, and 0-1 FA.
At the only Kill Team tournament I played in, there was an ork player with Nob bikers and ork boys, an Eldar player with banshees and those Forge World Shadow Specters, I ran 2x squads of Black Templar crusaders in a rhino with 1 heavy and 1 special each, a white scars player brought an honor guard squad on bikes with a land speeder, the Imperial Fists player brought a vanguard squad and a tactical squad, and the chaos marine player's list mirrored mine, mostly.
There were a few more but that's what I recall. You basically can take a few extra boys or a few extra toys, but not both.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Oh... got it. Yeah. It sounds like in most cases, official Kill Team is really just a couple min Troop choice units against one another?
The restriction is 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Elites and 0-1 Fast Attack, so you don't have to take a Troop choice. Three of your models must also take one of the numerous listed special rules (for free) - it helps a bit to make your team more unique.
The Kill Team booklet is an updated version of the 6th edition rules and features:
· Expanded rules for Kill Team Leaders and Specialists, plus new special rules specifically written for Kill Team games · Six Kill Team missions
· A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against hordes of enemies or powerful battle tanks
This booklet also includes full rules for the Tactical Squad and the Fire Warrior Strike Team, presented as example Kill Teams with leaders and specialists. The game doesn’t end there though, as customers can use a wide range of products and other armies to play Kill Team
All of that said, this rumor does say that the Kill Team rules will be updated. I don't know how that will change things.
It's not a rumour, but the actual brief stores got earlier this week.
I wouldn't expect too many changes, maybe removal of the Necron Reanimation Protocols rule, some tweaks to the specialist charts (with less focus on melee with the good gak).
Honestly the other day I decided to start Gorkamorka (orks), and also Necromunda (using the genestealer cultists from the deathwatch game).
With this, dependent on how it works I'll probably try the genestealer cultists with it. Working out some points from the profiles that GW put out for download.
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, kill team could be a good way to jump into multiple armies.
And this is exactly why GW needs to offer continued support for KT. I mainly play Necromunda and have a small Chaos army that I never use. However, I'm already planning 2-3 different Kill Team forces for armies I would never otherwise buy stuff for. With continued support and/or expansions, I could easily see doubling the number of factions I would buy just to have variety and even stuff for my friends to use.
For Tau empire, kroot hounds are listed as a fast attack choice, even tough there is no list entry in the codey (they are just models that can be added to a kroot squad), so maybe there are some changes to the way you pick units from the codex.
Wait. Are Quantum Shields going to work on our Ghost Arks? If so, we effectively have 37-point vehicles. Add that in with use having access to Wraiths, and holy hell!
If this is any good, I may actually be playing with my 40k stuff for the first time in a long time...though, my two main armies are Tau and Dark Angels, and I don't really need more troops for either...
Will probably wait for reviews to roll in before deciding to bite.
Also, I know Genestealer Cult don't have an official codex, perse...but that would likely be the force I'd be most interested in building a Kill Team/skirmish scale 40k game with. Too bad they aren't on that list posted above.
With this, dependent on how it works I'll probably try the genestealer cultists with it. Working out some points from the profiles that GW put out for download.
That's easy as there're only too (reasonable) options: either 2x Favoured Disciples + Purestrain Princelings (200 points) or 1x Favoured Disciples + 1x Faithful Throng (195 points). I'd prefer the latter combo (one relentless and one master-crafted mining laser? Yes please!).
But let's see what additional rules they have in the updated version.
For Tau empire, kroot hounds are listed as a fast attack choice, even tough there is no list entry in the codey (they are just models that can be added to a kroot squad), so maybe there are some changes to the way you pick units from the codex.
Deathwatch Vanguard Veterans are Elites, not Fast Attack. Among all the issues other people listed, this list is obviously made up.
EnTyme wrote: I can't help but notice there are no Necrons on that page. Allow me the first to overreact and declare . . .
NECRONS ARE BEING SQUATTED!!!!!
Fear not the NZ page has some sample kill teams one of which is a Necron group of Wraiths and Flayed ones(I so wish they had a decent plastic kit) Gotta say there exclusion is kinda odd though as they do have several units that would fit the kill team theme.
Looking at the magnified pic of some of the pages from the kill team rules booklet, they definitely made daemons a lot more viable with them becoming fearless, since previously daemonic instability didn't allow them to override break tests since it was a specific form of leadership test rather than morale. No crazy boosts for Cult Mechanicus or Skitarii either from either their Doctrina or Canticles. No Mob Rule for orks seems...okay at least as far as micromanaging goes since piled in combats with multiple orks got a little tedious, but it does make it harder for any Nobz to pass tests if they suffer one wound in close combat now.
At least they took away the outdated Necrons Reanimation Protocols rule for them having to be within 2" of each other to work. Though I feel they could have toned it down to being only a 6+ RP save for each.
And for each one of them, there is a dataslate with the rules (but without the weapon's profile, so you still need a codex). So up to three guys can be upgraded to specialists, and gain a special rule.
Starfarer wrote: So presumably those fire warriors can build the breachers as well?
.
Without a doubt. The plastic kit contain both options, and they are on the same sprues (it's not an add-on sprue like on some vehicles). You can make any valid FW squad with this kit (including the space carbine FW), and it has one DS8 turret and a few drones (including the drone that gives breachers a 5++).
These rules feel insanely restrictive. It hardly feels like a mordheim style skirmish game when you have to have min squads. And I can't even do the classic Terminators vs Genestealers? Cmon GW what are you doing?
Don Savik wrote: These rules feel insanely restrictive. It hardly feels like a mordheim style skirmish game when you have to have min squads. And I can't even do the classic Terminators vs Genestealers? Cmon GW what are you doing?
Don Savik wrote: These rules feel insanely restrictive. It hardly feels like a mordheim style skirmish game when you have to have min squads. And I can't even do the classic Terminators vs Genestealers? Cmon GW what are you doing?
Yeah, Termies are out if 2+ save units are still restricted, but Genestealers are definitely in still.
If you really want Termies vs. Genestealers, you could always run a game of 40K at a really small points value. Like a 400-500 point game.
Or just agree with an opponent that you're going to ignore the 2+ rule solely to run Terminators vs Genestealers. I'd allow it with my opponent.
Even if the 2+ restriction is still in place, if you've got an opponent you can trust, you can always hand wave that one away.
The 2+ armour save ban is mainly place for two reasons:
1. Not all armies are equipped to deal with such an obstacle at such a low point amount.
2. melon-fething Riptides! Though this is also the reason why your Kill Team must have at least four non-vehicle models, so they can be fielded as leader and three specialists.
Just took a moment to check the army-specific fine print in that preview.
Skitarii miss out on Doctrina Imperatives, ouch! The rest is all fine and dandy though, just a shame Skitarii got hit hard with that one, as it made for a great leveller against some of the other teams out there. Looking at you, Tau.
Other than that, the missions are the same as the previous edition, the caveats and secondary objectives are also the same.
BrookM wrote: You are still restricted to the minimum squad sizes and equipment restrictions as found in the codex.
I think this is mainly done to prevent some people from fielding nothing but a certain type of model or weapon type.
And that's why I much prefer the FW Strike Force rules(or the HoR rules on occasion) - they attempt to transmute 30K/40K into a proper warband skirmish game while KT is just low point value 40K with few tweaks to stop that going as totally wrong as you'd expect, heh. Your force is built by selecting individual models freely from any unit with any equipment from your army list - 150pts for up to 3 Characters(squad leaders and/or ICs), 200-350pts for anything else(with some sensible limits on bigger vehicles and creatures). Ad-hoc units are formed during the game itself. Leaders gain access to a special "Action Point" system that lets them pull off special feats a couple of times per game. There's a rudimentary postgame phase and campaign system in place.
I'll be interested to see if Deathwatch end up breaking this new version of Kill Team - unlike other factions their squads don't have very much of a limit on what equipment they can field.
This looks like a pretty sensible release. 40k has always been really expensive to get into, if they really push this, and market it properly, with good ongoing support, this could be a game to attract a lot of people into the stores and hobby. I'd certainly be up for starting a couple of little kill teams once I'm done with my Harlies.
So, do we know if this update changes the list-building rules in any way? It always felt a bit restrictive to me (both from a gaming and modelling perspective) that you have to purchase complete units rather than individuals from a unit. I get the argument that it stops people from cherry-picking the special weapon guy, but if the codex says only one in five can carry a special weapon then it doesn't take much to make sure the Kill Team rules specify that you'd still have to buy the other four...
Especially when the the whole thing stems from Deathwatch kill-teams who can each be equipped individually.
Which might, possibly intentionally, make them the best kill-team option...
EnTyme wrote: I can't help but notice there are no Necrons on that page. Allow me the first to overreact and declare . . .
NECRONS ARE BEING SQUATTED!!!!!
Fear not the NZ page has some sample kill teams one of which is a Necron group of Wraiths and Flayed ones(I so wish they had a decent plastic kit) Gotta say there exclusion is kinda odd though as they do have several units that would fit the kill team theme.
No Sisters either and they can have some nasty Kill Team builds
So, do we know if this update changes the list-building rules in any way? It always felt a bit restrictive to me (both from a gaming and modelling perspective) that you have to purchase complete units rather than individuals from a unit. I get the argument that it stops people from cherry-picking the special weapon guy, but if the codex says only one in five can carry a special weapon then it doesn't take much to make sure the Kill Team rules specify that you'd still have to buy the other four...
Especially when the the whole thing stems from Deathwatch kill-teams who can each be equipped individually.
Which might, possibly intentionally, make them the best kill-team option...
The answer is and has always been to play a better skirmish game, like Heralds of Ruin, as other people have mentioned. Kill Team is a lazy attempt to make the smallest possible number of rule changes such that 40k functions with a handful of models. As you can infer from that, it's never worked very well at all.
In 4th edition it was part of the main rulebook so it isnt that surprising there are better options out there. Not sure if it got updated for 7th but the Killzone fan-made rules were much better a few years ago. And free as well
Edit: I just saw HoR is based on some of its elements
WOW
What happened to those at GW??
Just got a mail from them, saying that as I own a digital Kill Team codex I can update that for free from 03.09.2016 on!!
miniholic wrote: WOW
What happened to those at GW??
Just got a mail from them, saying that as I own a digital Kill Team codex I can update that for free from 03.09.2016 on!!
They've been doing that for a while (did it with Farsight Enclaves as well).
It'll be interesting to see if they do it with core rules or codexes.
I see pre-orders for KT on the GW website in every region but North America (even the section "rest of the world" has access to it).
Does anyone know what's happening?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The answer is and has always been to play a better skirmish game, like Heralds of Ruin, as other people have mentioned. Kill Team is a lazy attempt to make the smallest possible number of rule changes such that 40k functions with a handful of models. As you can infer from that, it's never worked very well at all.
Kill Team being actual 40K, with the smallest amount of changes, IS the selling point for a lot of us, and it works perfectly well.
fresus wrote: I see pre-orders for KT on the GW website in every region but North America (even the section "rest of the world" has access to it).
Does anyone know what's happening?
I thought he meant for people who have bought the current version of Kill Team rules. I don't think they will be updated and you will have to rebuy it again.
TheCustomLime wrote: What amuses me is that they seem to believe that £40 is $65 USD. That is pretty wishful thinking on GW's part.
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nausium. But the differences in prices between regions are not solely down to currency fluctuations. How much does it cost to ship all those Kill Team Box Sets to North America, what taxes do GW pay? How are their overheads in that region different to the ones in the UK.
TheCustomLime wrote: What amuses me is that they seem to believe that £40 is $65 USD. That is pretty wishful thinking on GW's part.
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nausium. But the differences in prices between regions are not solely down to currency fluctuations. How much does it cost to ship all those Kill Team Box Sets to North America, what taxes do GW pay? How are their overheads in that region different to the ones in the UK.
Considering the US and UK are both members of the WTO and major trading partners I wouldn't imagine it to be very high.
Yeah, it's likely to have a lot of people getting some models they never really had an excuse for.
What GW needed was a way of making 'buy a box of stuff and start playing' practical for 40k, and Kill Team might be it.
They seem to have changed the composition rules slightly, as the example Ork force on the GW site has two elite choices.
I'm not going to slate the rules without reading them, as 40k is a terrible set of rules anyway that doesn't really work to produce balanced standard sized games, so lets not pretend it diminishes the 40k rules.
It may even improve them by disallowing a hell of a lot of stuff.
I am super disappointed that Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus lost the main thing that set them apart from other factions, Imperatives and Canticles. That just feels like a major slap in the face. There is pretty much no reason to play either of those factions in KT aside from list tailoring now. Might as well play Imperial Guard and be able to use orders or play Sisters for their acts of faith. bsIMO. If Skitarii and Cult Mech don't get their rules then Space Marine shouldn't get any kind of Chapter Tactics.
ultimentra wrote: I am super disappointed that Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus lost the main thing that set them apart from other factions, Imperatives and Canticles. That just feels like a major slap in the face. There is pretty much no reason to play either of those factions in KT aside from list tailoring now. Might as well play Imperial Guard and be able to use orders or play Sisters for their acts of faith. bsIMO. If Skitarii and Cult Mech don't get their rules then Space Marine shouldn't get any kind of Chapter Tactics.
I'd've thought the reason to play a Skitarii or a Cult army is because you want to play one of those armies. I mean hell, if I want to play some crazy machine-brain psychos, then Imperial Guard just isn't going to cut it.
ultimentra wrote: I am super disappointed that Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus lost the main thing that set them apart from other factions, Imperatives and Canticles. That just feels like a major slap in the face. There is pretty much no reason to play either of those factions in KT aside from list tailoring now. Might as well play Imperial Guard and be able to use orders or play Sisters for their acts of faith. bsIMO. If Skitarii and Cult Mech don't get their rules then Space Marine shouldn't get any kind of Chapter Tactics.
I'd've thought the reason to play a Skitarii or a Cult army is because you want to play one of those armies. I mean hell, if I want to play some crazy machine-brain psychos, then Imperial Guard just isn't going to cut it.
In addition to that though, I would like to actually use the armies rules that my codex is supposed to have and that I am paying for with the point cost of those units. I hate that for this specific game, I can't use all the tools that I am supposed to have available to me just because I am playing a particular army, when other factions do not have the same stipulation.
ultimentra wrote: I am super disappointed that Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus lost the main thing that set them apart from other factions, Imperatives and Canticles. That just feels like a major slap in the face. There is pretty much no reason to play either of those factions in KT aside from list tailoring now. Might as well play Imperial Guard and be able to use orders or play Sisters for their acts of faith. bsIMO. If Skitarii and Cult Mech don't get their rules then Space Marine shouldn't get any kind of Chapter Tactics.
I'd've thought the reason to play a Skitarii or a Cult army is because you want to play one of those armies. I mean hell, if I want to play some crazy machine-brain psychos, then Imperial Guard just isn't going to cut it.
In addition to that though, I would like to actually use the armies rules that my codex is supposed to have and that I am paying for with the point cost of those units. I hate that for this specific game, I can't use all the tools that I am supposed to have available to me just because I am playing a particular army, when other factions do not have the same stipulation.
Easily one of the most powerful army-specific tools in Kill-Team, and a representation of a larger directive than occupies Kill-Teams agenda.
5 skiitari with guns fighting some random orks probably aren't the focus of the magus, so that could explain the fluff side.
But hey, at leasy you have cool guns and tech no other imperial faction has access to.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Neronoxx wrote: Easily one of the most powerful army-specific tools in Kill-Team, and a representation of a larger directive than occupies Kill-Teams agenda.
5 skiitari with guns fighting some random orks probably aren't the focus of the magus, so that could explain the fluff side.
But hey, at leasy you have cool guns and tech no other imperial faction has access to.
Actually a nicely fluffy way of putting it.
And yeah, for these smaller engagements the weapons these guys tote should more than suffice in most cases. Radium carbines in particular, especially in the hands of a specialist are quite nasty.
ultimentra wrote: I am super disappointed that Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus lost the main thing that set them apart from other factions, Imperatives and Canticles. That just feels like a major slap in the face. There is pretty much no reason to play either of those factions in KT aside from list tailoring now. Might as well play Imperial Guard and be able to use orders or play Sisters for their acts of faith. bsIMO. If Skitarii and Cult Mech don't get their rules then Space Marine shouldn't get any kind of Chapter Tactics.
I'd've thought the reason to play a Skitarii or a Cult army is because you want to play one of those armies. I mean hell, if I want to play some crazy machine-brain psychos, then Imperial Guard just isn't going to cut it.
In addition to that though, I would like to actually use the armies rules that my codex is supposed to have and that I am paying for with the point cost of those units. I hate that for this specific game, I can't use all the tools that I am supposed to have available to me just because I am playing a particular army, when other factions do not have the same stipulation.
Easily one of the most powerful army-specific tools in Kill-Team, and a representation of a larger directive than occupies Kill-Teams agenda.
5 skiitari with guns fighting some random orks probably aren't the focus of the magus, so that could explain the fluff side.
But hey, at leasy you have cool guns and tech no other imperial faction has access to.
BrookM wrote:
Neronoxx wrote: Easily one of the most powerful army-specific tools in Kill-Team, and a representation of a larger directive than occupies Kill-Teams agenda.
5 skiitari with guns fighting some random orks probably aren't the focus of the magus, so that could explain the fluff side.
But hey, at leasy you have cool guns and tech no other imperial faction has access to.
Actually a nicely fluffy way of putting it.
And yeah, for these smaller engagements the weapons these guys tote should more than suffice in most cases. Radium carbines in particular, especially in the hands of a specialist are quite nasty.
Eh I suppose that makes sense, really I'm just salty that I don't get to use my special rules because they come in so clutch for me so often.
TheCustomLime wrote: What amuses me is that they seem to believe that £40 is $65 USD. That is pretty wishful thinking on GW's part.
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nausium. But the differences in prices between regions are not solely down to currency fluctuations. How much does it cost to ship all those Kill Team Box Sets to North America, what taxes do GW pay? How are their overheads in that region different to the ones in the UK.
Considering the US and UK are both members of the WTO and major trading partners I wouldn't imagine it to be very high.
Oh? I didn't know the WTO negated shipping fares across the Atlantic Ocean, as well as logistical expenses across the vast continent of North America...as well as local sales taxes and basic overheads.
New pyshic powers in interesting, Even if I hate having to use formations. Will wait and see if this gets me excited for 40k agien. Other wise I have been enjoying 30k and AoS's 1.5 ed alot more.
TheCustomLime wrote: What amuses me is that they seem to believe that £40 is $65 USD. That is pretty wishful thinking on GW's part.
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nausium. But the differences in prices between regions are not solely down to currency fluctuations. How much does it cost to ship all those Kill Team Box Sets to North America, what taxes do GW pay? How are their overheads in that region different to the ones in the UK.
Considering the US and UK are both members of the WTO and major trading partners I wouldn't imagine it to be very high.
Oh? I didn't know the WTO negated shipping fares across the Atlantic Ocean, as well as logistical expenses across the vast continent of North America...as well as local sales taxes and basic overheads.
My bad.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say negated. I said they probably aren't that high. Certainly not high enough to justify a 20% hike. And furthermore we do get charged for sales tax in the states but that cost isn't bult in to the price. You pay extra at checkout.
If I had to guess the price is based off of the pre-brexit exchange rate of 40k products. Before then the USD and Pound price were more or less at parity with a slight edge in favor of the pound. Usually to round off the price. GW is not want to lower their prices because that's not in their corporate mindset. Thus, the discrepency.
The way Gdub keeps slapping new covers on the mini rulebooks of a lot of stuff coming out, Im getting supicious that there is gonna be a new rulebook soon, and gdub is getting rid of excess inventory.
Hope they have just the killteams rulebook somewhere. I don't want any of that other stuff!
Phydox wrote: The way Gdub keeps slapping new covers on the mini rulebooks of a lot of stuff coming out, Im getting supicious that there is gonna be a new rulebook soon, and gdub is getting rid of excess inventory.
You hypothesis makes no sense, since each new cover is a new print run.
If anything, GW flooding us with freshly printed mini 7E rulebooks would be an indication that 8E isn't just around the corner, as some people speculate.
Speaking of mini rulebooks, what's on the cover of the Kill Team box sets mini rulebook ? I didn't even think to check.
Really interesting. Getting rid of "army wide rules" is a good way to balance small forces (or not getting crazy with rules becoming suddenly stupid when each model is treated as a separate unit, mind you).
Will definitely use my Renegade Guard or Sisters of Battle for this.
And yes, it's a smart move from GW. If there is a kind of game that suits really well 40k detailed rules, it's definitely a skirmish wargame. Also means most of these new warbands can be recruited with one or two boxes, most of the time. And then you end with another full army, as usual.
The Emperor be damned, it feels like GW is really welcoming me back into the Hobby with open arms. That's what happens when you put people at the head who actually listen to their first line workforce (who are directly talking to their customers, after all ).
Speaking of mini rulebooks, what's on the cover of the Kill Team box sets mini rulebook ? I didn't even think to check.
Based on the pictures on GW's site, looks like a PA Raven Guard marine. Looks like they're matching up the rulebook cover with the box it comes it since the one in Death Masque is Artemis (or at least a DeathWatch marine).
Phydox wrote: The way Gdub keeps slapping new covers on the mini rulebooks of a lot of stuff coming out, Im getting supicious that there is gonna be a new rulebook soon, and gdub is getting rid of excess inventory.
You hypothesis makes no sense, since each new cover is a new print run.
If anything, GW flooding us with freshly printed mini 7E rulebooks would be an indication that 8E isn't just around the corner, as some people speculate..
Even then, mini rule books are probably a fairly regular thing to produce, switching to 8th minis in each box will barely put any sort of restrictions on production.
Phydox wrote: The way Gdub keeps slapping new covers on the mini rulebooks of a lot of stuff coming out, Im getting supicious that there is gonna be a new rulebook soon, and gdub is getting rid of excess inventory.
You hypothesis makes no sense, since each new cover is a new print run.
If anything, GW flooding us with freshly printed mini 7E rulebooks would be an indication that 8E isn't just around the corner, as some people speculate..
Even then, mini rule books are probably a fairly regular thing to produce, switching to 8th minis in each box will barely put any sort of restrictions on production.
While your point is true, it's not what I'm getting at. They're not emptying out the warehouse of 7E rulebooks to make room for 8E ones.
Do many people use Forgeworld armies for Kill Team?
I've always wanted some Corsairs but can't justify starting a new army... handful of jetpack dudes with supporting Wasp / Vyper / Hornet / jetbikes could be a cool kill team.
I managed to talk my roomate into getting back into 40k through this new Killteam box, let the GW guy talk me into the Armies on Parade and start "shilling" the 'Get Started' Boxes to other friends.
GW has changed, and I dont think any of my group were ready.
Even then, mini rule books are probably a fairly regular thing to produce, switching to 8th minis in each box will barely put any sort of restrictions on production.
To be honest I had the same thoughts that GW were running down their stock of rule books because it seems strange that they are dumping so many in these products. But as you said the assumption is that they print on demand. However I had a thought - what if did a print run using professional printers many moons ago. Then they may have roles or sheets of rules hiding away somewhere waiting to be bound an have a cover glued on. So it becomes part and part then, they have stocks of unglued paper they are clearing by producing new covered books. I suppose one way to check is whether the new FAQs are included. If they are it implies a relatively new print run, if not it is a possibility?
On an aside I feel a bit dissapointed with kill team. IIRC when it was first introduced many many years ago it was designed for a small band of elites like gaunts ghosts each with unique rules against a larger but less organised force so the strategy was to get in and get out quietly otherwise you got swamped and lost. This just feels a bit too like mini 40k.
The inclusion of a rulebook in most boxed sets these days is a pretty sweet deal though, meaning it can either serve as an alternative starter, or giving those who have the hardback rules access to a smaller booklet, something I missed out on for this edition because I didn't want to rebuy Dark Vengeance again.
The problem with the first incarnation of Kill Team was that not everybody was a champ when it came to fielding squads of Brutes, much rather wanting to field a Kill Team instead of playing the antagonist.
Plus, the old rules were not exactly elegant or easily condensed, with the game starting "cold" and only growing hotter as more klaxon counters were accrued over time.
BrookM wrote: The inclusion of a rulebook in most boxed sets these days is a pretty sweet deal though, meaning it can either serve as an alternative starter, or giving those who have the hardback rules access to a smaller booklet, something I missed out on for this edition because I didn't want to rebuy Dark Vengeance again.
The problem with the first incarnation of Kill Team was that not everybody was a champ when it came to fielding squads of Brutes, much rather wanting to field a Kill Team instead of playing the antagonist.
Plus, the old rules were not exactly elegant or easily condensed, with the game starting "cold" and only growing hotter as more klaxon counters were accrued over time.
I'm not saying there weren't issues, just that I think it is a missed opportunity to design small tight kill team ruleset that worked on this principle. The idea is not far off from Space Hulk in that you have one elite unit versus large numbers of 'grunts'. I just think it would it provide a more unique game rather than '40k light'.
I never had the issue of people not wanting to play the 'grunts', generally it was two quick games with each person swapping sides, but I suppose that depends on your gaming group.
I wonder how hard it would be to come up with a ruleset for 'NPC' grunts? The possibility of a co-op game where each player uses his/her own Kill Team would be pretty awesome IMO.
Edit: Never mind, I guess Geedubs have it covered!
However, I don't know if you've read the description for the upcoming revised ruled, but included this blurb:
A section on additional gaming ideas – linked games, multiplayer Kill Team battles and games against hordes of enemies or powerful battle tanks.
It's the wording that doesn't inspire me because it's ideas rather than 'rules'. I would have liked a system that was integrated in the ruleset. But I accept we won't really know until we see the rules. My concern is it will just be tacked on "have you thought about doing this". Whereas I would have preferred full rules for some of the more unique units in the 40k World (Gaunt's Ghosts, Scheffers Last Chancers, Illlic's (sp?) rangers, Darkstriders pathfinders etc etc) and ways of creating your own. Rules for patrols, alarms, distractions etc etc. Basically allowing you to play a mini movie.
Some of the start collecting boxes look like they would be a good fit for Kill team forces depending on the vehicle and MC limitations. The Militarum Tempestus box is an obvious one but there are only a few with 2+ saves or heavy tanks in them.
What's the kill team rules again? 0-1 HQ, 0-1 elite 1-2 troops, 0-1 heavy, no 2+ saves, no AV that add together to be over 32? Typically around 250 points?
No models with more than three wounds or HP's, vehicle may not exceed a maximum armour of 33 and the point amount played at is 200 per side.
That's the old rules. The new ones have dropped the 3 wounds because Ogryns are on the list of stuff you can take, and one of the example armies on the GW site (the Ork one) is two elite choices with dedicated transports.
So that means the Necron Annihilation barge, Triarch stalkers and Doom/Nighr scythes are ok? I know they would take up a big chunk of the points but ouch
No models with more than three wounds or HP's, vehicle may not exceed a maximum armour of 33 and the point amount played at is 200 per side.
That's the old rules. The new ones have dropped the 3 wounds because Ogryns are on the list of stuff you can take, and one of the example armies on the GW site (the Ork one) is two elite choices with dedicated transports.
This could be the language barrier, but I typed MORE THAN three wounds, which means three wounds or less is acceptable where I'm from.
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GoatboyBeta wrote: So that means the Necron Annihilation barge, Triarch stalkers and Doom/Nighr scythes are ok? I know they would take up a big chunk of the points but ouch
No flyers and unless the rules have been changed, you must field at least four non-vehicle models first.
That necron thing with the shields.. we had quite a few discussions about that one, but decided to not allow it in the end, because AV 13(?) was a bit too much to work with at such a low point amount.
Some kind of strafing fire rule for multiple shot weapons would be welcome... As it is you can only ever kill one model regardless of how many shots you have. So if two models are running towards you you're screwed even if you're standing there aiming a Heavy Bolter right at them.
None of the example armies given by GW have vehicles above 33 total armour, so that's still there.
I did misread the three wounds thing.
I think it's a great opportunity to do some of the less well known chapters. Space Sharks is one I'm looking at, and I'll be going through my bitz box for Mk 4 and 5 marines with no Imperial markings. Just wish they still did the transfers.
I like that they are tossing small rulebooks in everything. IMHO shelling out for the massive tome that is the main book was a serious bar to getting into the game. It wasn’t just that you had to buy the expensive minis (which I never minded) but had to drop close to $100 just for the books.
And not just for new players. For lapsed players wanting to come back, the cost of get the most up to date rules is enough for some folks to just pass.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Mymearan wrote: Some kind of strafing fire rule for multiple shot weapons would be welcome... As it is you can only ever kill one model regardless of how many shots you have. So if two models are running towards you you're screwed even if you're standing there aiming a Heavy Bolter right at them.
Split-fire does this in the previous ruleset. If you have a ranged weapon that fires more than one shot, you may allocate within a certain range.
edit.
A model with the Split Fire special rule can target two different enemy models with its shooting attacks. No Leadership test is required to use this ability. However, the controlling player must clearly state how many shots he intends to fire at each target before rolling To Hit.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
One thing i never liked about Kill Team is it's basically still squad level, but it's pitched as some kind of special ops level (unless I'm greatly mistaken which is possible, I thought the original "Kill Team" stuff was Schaefer's Last Chancers, where each model was basically unique). What I would have liked would be if you could mix and match, like how (perhaps? In the RPG anyways) Deathwatch is. One marine with jump pack and chainsword/bolt pistol (Assault), one with heavy weapon (Devastator), two with bolter (Tactical), etc. Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have. Like, there should be one level beneath that, almost like Warband style, so it goes:
"Warband" (mix and match/special ops) -> Kill Team (i.e. squad level) -> Company (standard size) -> Apocalypse (3k+ points; highest for normal 40k, superheavies and flyers here) -> Epic (i.e. grand tactical, very abstract)
Ah well. I'm still looking forward to it. Thinking up some ideas for a Kill team narrative campaign to pitch to my GW store once it's officially out.
What you want is the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules. They allow for that. You can have Terminators and all kinds of stuff not allowed in GW's ruleset.
Oguhmek wrote: What you want is the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules. They allow for that. You can have Terminators and all kinds of stuff not allowed in GW's ruleset.
I've heard of that, but it'd be nice to see an official set of rules done in that way. Still, that could open interesting potential e.g. HoRKT as the warband style, GWKT as squad, etc.
Nevelon wrote: And not just for new players. For lapsed players wanting to come back, the cost of get the most up to date rules is enough for some folks to just pass.
This is the boat I'm in. The main rulebook alone is 65 euros, and frankly, I don't need most of it, since I own every edition from the 2nd onwards, which all had their own fluff and painting bits, for example. There's only so many different ways you can tell the story of the Heresy, and only so many John Blanche paintings to illustrate it in. So for me, the high page count and production values are wasted.
Even minimally, not worrying about objective cards or psychic power decks, I'd be looking at a 173€ expenditure on new rulebooks in order to play the game again with my three armies. And that's not going into formations or army-specific objectives or disciplines at all, which, as far as I can see it, can add up to another 100 sooner than you think. At which point I'd be in the $300 range, at which point, I'd probably be asking if a) I can meaningfully afford this and b) wouldn't I rather have a Playstation 4 instead?
WayneTheGame wrote: Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have.
I think I'm going to field Inquisitorial Henchmen - that should provide me with enough variety (granted, some of them are useless in a Kill Team but most are not).
WayneTheGame wrote: Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have.
I think I'm going to field Inquisitorial Henchmen - that should provide me with enough variety (granted, some of them are useless in a Kill Team but most are not).
If you have an agreeable opponent you can always add in an Inquisitor, with some limitations on his or her equipment choices.
WayneTheGame wrote: Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have.
I think I'm going to field Inquisitorial Henchmen - that should provide me with enough variety (granted, some of them are useless in a Kill Team but most are not).
If you have an agreeable opponent you can always add in an Inquisitor, with some limitations on his or her equipment choices.
Nah, it has more charm to see them without the boss and to imagine how they start quarrelling when something is going wrong.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
Isn't that what I did say? Too many tinpot admins.
WayneTheGame wrote: Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have.
Each model acts as its own unit. Also, up to three guys can be upgraded to specialists, which gives them a special rule and lowers the "all my guys are exactly the same" factor.
I agree that lowering the restriction on the number of models would have been good (especially in the non troop choices), but it's not always as bad as it looks like.
If you take a unit of scouts for instance, you can mix and match close combat weapon, boltguns, shotgun etc. With the use of specialists, it's easy to have 10 guys with no more than two that are the same. And since they act as different unit, mix and matching works well.
Obviously, a tactical squad has way fewer options, which in my opinion makes it much less interesting than scouts for a vanilla space marine KT.
I also think that seeing a tactical squad in this box shows GW's obsession with having regular marines in their starting boxes. Maybe they included a datasheet for a special SMKT that circumvent the codex limitations, otherwise most of the guys will be identical. On the other side, the FW have three weapon options for normal guys, the team leader can get a markerlight, 2 drones, and the turret. That's a lot more variety.
WayneTheGame wrote: Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have.
I think I'm going to field Inquisitorial Henchmen - that should provide me with enough variety (granted, some of them are useless in a Kill Team but most are not).
If you have an agreeable opponent you can always add in an Inquisitor, with some limitations on his or her equipment choices.
Nah, it has more charm to see them without the boss and to imagine how they start quarrelling when something is going wrong.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
You mean exactly what he did say before MGS decided to take a gak down his neck? And if you' aren't interested in reading opinions you disagree with, what is the point of even frequenting a discussion forum? Oh. Right. You're just doing exactly what you're accusing someone else of doing, except you actually are doing it.
Seriously people, if your definition of trolling is "not gushing uncritically in agreement with my own personal taste", then just walk away from the internet now and save both yourselves and those of us capable of tolerating interaction with differing views a lot of annoyance.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
You mean exactly what he did say before MGS decided to take a gak down his neck? And if you' aren't interested in reading opinions you disagree with, what is the point of even frequenting a discussion forum? Oh. Right. You're just doing exactly what you're accusing someone else of doing, except you actually are doing it.
Seriously people, if your definition of trolling is "not gushing uncritically in agreement with my own personal taste", then just walk away from the internet now and save both yourselves and those of us capable of tolerating interaction with differing views a lot of annoyance.
It's one thing to contribute a critical opinion to a discussion; indeed it's not much of a discussion if everyone agrees. It's quite another to speak without actually entering into a discussion. "I will not buy a vanilla cake as I prefer chocolate" is perfectly fine as an opinion, but it doesn't really allow for anything beyond telling people your preference. There's no discussion to be had as all you have stated is your opinion. Is chocolate a more complex flavor? Is it more readily acceptable in your social circles? Do you have an allergy to vanilla? These are all points of a potential conversation. In this context "I prefer Infinity because the more tailored ruleset for skirmish warfare seems more likely to be enjoyable than trying to scale-down a game like 40k" would be a discussion, and likely a fair critical point.
If just posting your basic opinion is all the energy you can muster for the topic, then why bother entering into it to begin with? It took more energy to click the reply button, type in those sentences and click post than just not doing any of those things which would also convey your disinterest in the topic. At that point, you've simply posted to read your own opinion which...seems somewhat pointless, in my opinion anyway. However, expanding that discussion is somewhat off-topic.
Back on-topic, as I might have use for both the forces contained in the box, I might pick it up. Not entirely sure though as I have tons of Space Marines really, though it'd help bullk out a Deathwatch force with more "normal" marines than the Kill Team boxes.
WayneTheGame wrote: Mix and match, instead of it just being like a 200 point game with restricted access to things. Like, not make it so you still have to buy a minimum squad (typically 5 anyways) because that usually means you end up just having one single squad of guys and maybe some extras. That doesn't seem like enough leeway to really have "special ops mission" type of scenarios, you basically just have squad vs. squad combat which isn't how it's pitched, even if that's still a good thing to have.
I think I'm going to field Inquisitorial Henchmen - that should provide me with enough variety (granted, some of them are useless in a Kill Team but most are not).
If you have an agreeable opponent you can always add in an Inquisitor, with some limitations on his or her equipment choices.
Nah, it has more charm to see them without the boss and to imagine how they start quarrelling when something is going wrong.
Blame the monkey.
OOK!
The one with the las-cannon ring? Mmh... The floating freak with otherworldly powers, the drugged killing machine and the 'armed to the teeth' (literally) murder cultist aren't better, though. Maybe the dumb machine man - without the boss around there's a 50% chance he doesn't react to any insult.
Was looking closer at the pics of contents. Does anyone know if this includes a decal sheet (one is shown but it's not listed in contents)? Also, wondering if that sheet has the Ravens' icons included.
Was also reading the Harlequin example and it seems to have 4 of the 6 models as characters while only two are listed as 'players', which I'm assuming in Harlequin-speak means grunt/trooper. Would each model of the 6 constitute its own unit or do you actually band models together in tactical squads, ork mobs, etc.?
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
You mean exactly what he did say before MGS decided to take a gak down his neck? And if you' aren't interested in reading opinions you disagree with, what is the point of even frequenting a discussion forum? Oh. Right. You're just doing exactly what you're accusing someone else of doing, except you actually are doing it.
Seriously people, if your definition of trolling is "not gushing uncritically in agreement with my own personal taste", then just walk away from the internet now and save both yourselves and those of us capable of tolerating interaction with differing views a lot of annoyance.
Couldn't say it any better. And I'm actually pretty excited about Kill Team.
And the pricing on the MT bundles !!!! That's simply outrageous. They really make themselves look like shady used car sellers with this kind of sale strategy
privateer4hire wrote: Was looking closer at the pics of contents. Does anyone know if this includes a decal sheet (one is shown but it's not listed in contents)? Also, wondering if that sheet has the Ravens' icons included.
Was also reading the Harlequin example and it seems to have 4 of the 6 models as characters while only two are listed as 'players', which I'm assuming in Harlequin-speak means grunt/trooper. Would each model of the 6 constitute its own unit or do you actually band models together in tactical squads, ork mobs, etc.?
Thanks.
So far I've only seen a Tau decal sheet included with the set.
Models are bought as squads and whatnot, but played as individuals during the game itself, every model is a squad onto its own.
I'm not all that familiar with the Harlequins, but looking at their datasheet there are two actual characters in there, one is the leader of the team, the other is along with two regular models listed as specialists, models you can give a USR to make them stand out from the rest of the team and give your games a little something extra to spice things up a bit.
Anyway, I'm actually coming around to the basic idea of KT. Sure, it's not as interesting or detailed as FW's rules or HoR, but it might be easier to persuade the usual GW-Only goobers to actually play it. Hopefully plenty of the KT pamphlets from the box end up on ebay from people splitting the models.
As someone just dropping in here would someone mind taking a moment to answer my questions? Did have a look on the web but couldn't find any official details:
1) is this going to be like the previous kill team rules (was it back in 4th Edition?)
2) in terms of basic mechanics, is it using squads as a basis (so like a small game of 40k but with no unbound/titans) or a skirmish game with miniatures acting independently and with own skills (like Necromunda or Infinity?) If anyone could post about any other details of mechanics would be really grateful.
3) Are these minis released for the game or part of the normal 40k lineup?
Pacific wrote: As someone just dropping in here would someone mind taking a moment to answer my questions? Did have a look on the web but couldn't find any official details:
1) is this going to be like the previous kill team rules (was it back in 4th Edition?)
2) in terms of basic mechanics, is it using squads as a basis (so like a small game of 40k but with no unbound/titans) or a skirmish game with miniatures acting independently and with own skills (like Necromunda or Infinity?) If anyone could post about any other details of mechanics would be really grateful.
3) Are these minis released for the game or part of the normal 40k lineup?
1. No. These are based off the revised rules first found in the Battle Missions book.
2. No. While models are purchased as part of squads, on the table each model acts as its own unit. This has been posted a few times in this thread now..
3. Part of the regular lineup.
There are still things unknown as of right now, as the sample datasheets shown seem to allow for vehicles to become specialists again (or this is GW making a minor cock-up again), something that wasn't allowed in the previous edition.
The specialist skills have also been altered quite a bit.
But the rest is more or less still the same as the previous edition found on the BL site, right down to the missions, leader traits and general setup of the game itself (200 pts, no 2+ / better than 5++, no more than 3 wounds / HP etc).
privateer4hire wrote: Was looking closer at the pics of contents. Does anyone know if this includes a decal sheet (one is shown but it's not listed in contents)? Also, wondering if that sheet has the Ravens' icons included.
Was also reading the Harlequin example and it seems to have 4 of the 6 models as characters while only two are listed as 'players', which I'm assuming in Harlequin-speak means grunt/trooper. Would each model of the 6 constitute its own unit or do you actually band models together in tactical squads, ork mobs, etc.?
Thanks.
I can answer from a 6th edition Kill Team rules set:
When you purchase your units, you buy them normally, like a squad of 6 Harlequin (if that's legal, I don't play them) and add on any upgrades that are also legal and within the point limit. Then, you play each model as an individual unit. You now have 6 units of individual Harlequin. THEN, you get to assign 3 of the models a specialist role (Dirty Fighter Specialist, Weapon Specialist, etc). THEN, you assign one of the models as the leader. (Maybe you asign the leader first and then the specialists, but whatever). Each team has to have 3 specialists and 1 leader. So, that's probably why you see it as 4 "characters".
There is also provision in the rules (6th edition, anyway) that allows models from a unit to ride in a transport purchased for that unit. So a Rhino could hold 5 tactical marines if they were purchased together, even though they technically count as 5 separate units.
There is a mission in the 6th edition Kill Team where the primary victory points are killing the leader and the specialists.
Assign a leader first, then your specialists. You're no longer allowed to give your leader a specialist skill, unless you roll the "Been there, seen it, done it!" trait, which allows you to field your leader as your fourth specialist.
Hmm, I began making some Kill Team warbands. It's quite fun.
I wonder how I will play the Acts of Faith for sisters in this system. Having an Act for each model is kinda annoying, but we will see in game with full rules. I don't really expect a note about Sisters of Batlte in GW rules, though.
Not sure vehicles are really worth it. Grenades seem to become quite deadly, since each model is an unit in itself. And since you can throw one grenade per unit each phase...But maybe the rules will mention something about that.
Having a Fearless leader is quite handy to make sure low morale soldiers stand their ground. Just making sure to keep him close in case.
As before, strength in numbers will be a fair advantage. Tried a list with Guard, based on a Platoon Infantry. You can fill quite a lot of these "pew pew" people...But again, maybe the rules will limit that.
Some people may say it's a cheap trick from GW, sure. But it's good to see such things going official again. And it gives some motivation to start new small projects. The Harlequin or Deathwatch Kill Teams are exactly that; you build and paint a very small numbers of miniatures, get a few games with them, then you add some things here and there before having a small army for 40k. Or not.
Sarouan wrote: Hmm, I began making some Kill Team warbands. It's quite fun.
I wonder how I will play the Acts of Faith for sisters in this system. Having an Act for each model is kinda annoying, but we will see in game with full rules. I don't really expect a note about Sisters of Batlte in GW rules, though.
In the 6th edition Kill Team, only the sergeant (or whatever the name) in the unit can make the check for act of faith, and anything in the command range (6", or 12" with a Leader Trait) at the time it is triggered gets the benefit of the act of faith.
Playing against my wife's Sisters in kill team, that 6++ on everything comes up WAY more often than 1 in 6!
While there is no official rule limiting the maximum amount of models you can cram into 200 pts, we ran with a house rule ourselves stating no more than 15 models, to prevent someone from fielding an Infantry Platoon with as many models as possible. This was to both prevent the spam of a gakload of models and to speed things up, having someone move 35+ models one by one into the best cover can draw things out quite a bit.
As for vehicles, it depends on the mission I suppose. Having a Taurox Prime as attacker with the "Infiltrate the Camp" is perhaps a bit of a cheat, but it's the fastest way to bust through enemy lines for a quick win. An Armoured Sentinel (AV 12 up front) is also great, as it can tie down one or more enemy models in an assault, whom in most cases have little to chance of actually hurting it.
Not sure why people would call it a cheap trick though. Sure it re-uses two model sets and the new ruleset may be just an updated version with some extras tacked on, but does it really need all that much work to well, make it work? It's not as sophisticated or highbrow as Infinity, Bushido, Marvel or Mordheim, but it doesn't need to IMHO, as this works quite well representing a game of good old Kelly's Heroes, Guns of Navarone, the Dirty Dozen, the first half of Predator, the Expendables or whatever else commando movie you grew up with, but set in 40k, with your dudes and dudettes.
I fielded a force, for one night only, of AM infantry platoon plus Conscripts for some ridiculous 45 model Kill Team. Won every game through sheer volume of fire and being able to bubblewrap objectives. I suspect a CSM Cultist force would provide similar results.
When we were playing Kill Team the forces changed every week. It was almost a mini game in itself, seeing what new combinations we could come up for the next weeks battles.
Making KT lists really is proving to be fun. I think i'll take a short break from painting Age of Sigmar armies and assemble and paint a few Kill Teams for armies I always liked models from, but would never commit to building full armies of. Dark Eldar, here I come!
Sarouan wrote: Really interesting. Getting rid of "army wide rules" is a good way to balance small forces (or not getting crazy with rules becoming suddenly stupid when each model is treated as a separate unit, mind you).
Will definitely use my Renegade Guard or Sisters of Battle for this.
And yes, it's a smart move from GW. If there is a kind of game that suits really well 40k detailed rules, it's definitely a skirmish wargame. Also means most of these new warbands can be recruited with one or two boxes, most of the time. And then you end with another full army, as usual.
The Emperor be damned, it feels like GW is really welcoming me back into the Hobby with open arms. That's what happens when you put people at the head who actually listen to their first line workforce (who are directly talking to their customers, after all ).
This isn't the case though, only SOME armies are getting this treatment. Space Marines still have Chapter tactics, Eldar still have battle focus, etc.
It varies from army to army yes, but it if one looks to the fluff, it would make sense I think..?
I mean, Chapter Tactics and Battle Focus are down to training, whereas the Skitarii Doctrina's are outside influence run through a magos.
In a not so fluffy justification.. The Mechanicus buffs really don't come into play as there's too few units on the table. Sure, people will love to argue that seeing as every model is a unit onto itself, their teams should be allowed access to their Canticles and have Fearless / Shrouded / +3 Strength / re-rolls on everything, but that's just overkill and game breaking.
Doctrina Imperatives for Skitarii aren't dependent on the number of units, only Canticles are. Skitarii just get the Doctrinas as an army-wide special rule. I'm still salty that they don't get to use them. If GW is going to take away our free rules, then no other faction should get their free rules, which basically every faction except Imperial Guard and Chaos Space Marines have something. Imperial Guard have orders but they only effect one model now so they basically don't matter.
Space Marine chapter tactics
Eldar Battle Focus
Dark Eldar Power from Pain
Tau markerlights
Deathwatch mission tactics
Necron reanimation protocols
etc
Just because "it can make sense from a fluff standpoint" doesn't mean it's right or fair. If Tau get markerlights and Space Marines get chapter tactics, Skitarii should get Doctrinas. Yes I am salty.
Well the doctrinata imperatives skitarii have just affects their accuracy in close combat/shooting. It's very simple, you pick one and the whole army gets it. So for example one turn you may pick +1 bs, then next turn it may be +3bs/-2 We (the higher the buff the higher a nerf will be alongside it)
I think the reason it's not allowed is having your entire kill team magically become BS
did this come from?!?
Yes I am salty.