The following are already included in the base pledge
Add Ons beyond this point are not in the base pledge
Collectors Edition Resin Miniatures
Deadzone Mercenary Packs
Minion Packs
Project Pandora
Mission Packs
MDF Tiles
Announcement
Spoiler:
Mantic Games today announced the newest in its series of dungeon crawler tabletop board games: STAR SAGA, which will launch a campaign on Kickstarter on September 26th.
The spiritual sequel to the smash hit DUNGEON SAGA, Star Saga: The Eiras Contract will see the dungeon crawler format take flight—into outer space!
Featuring strong story-telling elements with immersive game scenarios, and set in Mantic’s evocative Warpath Universe, STAR SAGA will see players guide a team of space mercenaries on a mission to retrieve stolen data plans from a research facility orbiting a far-off alien world. Players will take on platoons of minions, powerful alien bosses and be forced to make difficult choices as the story takes unexpected twists and turns. Further campaigns and expansions will utilize the full scope of the science fiction settings, from space stations and starships to alien worlds and beyond.
Dungeon Saga was praised for its simple core mechanics that provided a perfect opening for new players, and Star Saga will build on that success. Introducing newly improved and stronger rulesets, Star Saga will feature both ‘learn as you go’ rules for new players, and more detailed, advanced mechanics for seasoned gamers.
Star Saga: The Eiras Contract will hit Kickstarter on September 26th at 8:30AM EST, and run for 25 days.
The campaign this time around is a bit more streamlined than in the past, with just one pledge level, which will be priced at $100.00 USD. If you get in early, there will also be an identical version of this pledge, in limited quantities, offered at a discounted price ($90.00).
There will also be a retailer pledge level for those interested and qualifying stores.
The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!
The contents of the core box will include:
• The Rulebook featuring tutorials and basic mechanics for novices, as well as expanded rules for veteran players.
• The Eiras Contract Mission Book with 10 narrative adventures, two intro missions, character bios and the story behind Eiras.
• High Quality Card Sheets with floor tiles and counters
• Four Character cards
• More than 100 Game Cards for equipment, skills, and all the powers of the Nexus player.
• A Selection of Custom Dice
• 32 Highly Detailed Miniatures including:
o Four Mercenary Heroes
o Three Bosses
o 24 Minions
• plus loads of scenery
I liked DS for what it's worth but I felt it needed more replayability. The fact that basically scenarios are totally fixed was a problem for long-term play I think.
At this stage my main question is 'Am I going to get stat cards for the host of Mercs I already have from Deadzone?', ala the extra 8 or 12 or whatever it was extra heroes on top of the basic box 4 in Dungeon Saga, except the minis already exist.
"Dungeon Saga was praised ..." By whom ?!!
"Star Saga will feature ... more detailed, adcanced mechanics ...". Like they promised Dungeon Saga would during the Kickstarter to raise pledge levels only to fall WAY short in fulfillment ?!!
Mantic has run twelve Kickstarters to date. 12 !! They say they improve and learn with every one but read what customers have to say about them.
If you're interested, do yourself a favor and take a look at their KS history and read the comments. Do your due diligence before you choose to invest.
They lost me and my dollars with the way they botched Dungeon Saga with all the broken promises, pathetic delivery and offensive treatment of customers.
They haven't, but we both know it's going to be in board game plastic, either the same as the most recent lot in DZ2E, or another iteration on the formula. And really, that material is perfectly fine by me.
Dungeon Saga was average. Average rules, average miniatures, average tiles. Fell short on the advanced rules, went back on their adventure gamebook add-on and made you pay for a corrected rulebook. $20 for additional book boxes which made each expansion more expensive than MSRP.
Myrthe wrote: "Dungeon Saga was praised ..." By whom ?!!
"Star Saga will feature ... more detailed, adcanced mechanics ...". Like they promised Dungeon Saga would during the Kickstarter to raise pledge levels only to fall WAY short in fulfillment ?!!
Mantic has run twelve Kickstarters to date. 12 !! They say they improve and learn with every one but read what customers have to say about them.
If you're interested, do yourself a favor and take a look at their KS history and read the comments. Do your due diligence before you choose to invest.
They lost me and my dollars with the way they botched Dungeon Saga with all the broken promises, pathetic delivery and offensive treatment of customers.
Well, I can't blame anyone for being skeptical of Mantic's Kickstarters.
They did bring in some new people to untangle the mess that was the DS fulfillments and from what I can see, once they got on the case they did sort out the situation decently given the circumstances and, for what it's worth, the Walking Dead KS seems to have went well so far.
Thus I have a bit of hope that they have actually finally learned to run a campaign, but unfortunately, I don't trust them enough to put my own money on the line yet.
Dude having just watched the KS unboxing video for Walking Dead I really regret not having backed it. 7 months for a fully realized fantastic looking product. :/
I'll probably be in for a $1 and play the waiting game, see what ends up being unlocked. I think the main deciding factor for me is going to be what the figures look like.
The quality seems to have really improved and this is looking to be a much better developed product (although some of that may be down to external licence involvement).
I played Dungeon Saga for the first time last week and it was a perfectly fine game. I feel like I got my money's worth from the kickstarter. In saying that, you kind of need to keep in mind some things.
It is effectively a 'budget' Descent / Super Dungeon Explore / etc. If you are expecting the game to be as deep as them, you are going to be annoyed and disappointed. Dungeon Saga IS worth the money. And, although I haven't played Descent I'm sure it's ALSO worth its (notably higher) price point.
Now, on the subject of Star Saga. Well, I do have Star Wars: Imperial Assault (hence why I was talking about Descent earlier) and I've invested heavily into the game, purchasing the vast majority of its released expansions. As such, I don't really feel the need for 'Star Saga' myself. - I've got a Fantasy pseudo RPG in Dungeon Saga and I've got a Sci Fi pseudo-RPG in Imperial Assault.
From using the two, one of the interesting things I found with them is, sure Imperial Assault is more tactically interesting, more complex, greater depth and all that. It's also a MUCH larger time sink. - You're talking about getting the same people turning up consecutively 10 times in a row. Even subbing in players can result in someone getting annoyed by the way someone else has 'messed with' their character.
Conversely, the base Dungeon Saga, even with the optional rules at the back is very much more "Pick up and play." - Worst case, you need to remember whether the 'bonus objectives' in the last mission were accomplished or not.
They're similar, sure but there's enough differences that it's not a case of, "X exists, so Y is immediately inferior." Each game has its own niche.
judgedoug wrote: TBH I could really use a sci fi dungeoncrawler. There's not really any on the market.
Somebody said that exact thing on the last Remote Presence podcast regarding Corvus Belli's proposed idea to do one in the Infinity universe. There are TONS of sci-fi dungeoncrawlers on the market. I'm sure there's many I'm missing, but most of the sci-fi dungeoncrawls instead take the form of "board the derelict spacecraft", most immediate that comes to mind is the obvious Space Hulk and Space Crusade. You've also had the Aliens boardgame and now Aliens vs Predator from what I've seen of that. Doom is still in production iirc from Fantasy Flight, Sedition Wars is still on sale for dirt cheap and plays OKish with the 2.0 rules. And of course there's the monster that is Imperial Assault. It doesn't get any more "sci-fi dungeoncrawl" than the what is literally Descent with a star wars reskin. MERCS had a kickstarter for the soon-to-release MERCS:Recon. I'm sure there's many more, but that's just a few of the big ones.
And also, didn't Mantic have one before? I could have sworn they did a Corporation vs Ratmen board game based on the original Dwarf Kings Hold rules.
We'll see how it plays out, I'm certainly more interested in what this might play out as than I was for DZ Infestation and Mars Attacks & Walking Dead. DS looked fine, but mediocre. Standard MO for Mantic.
I'll watch, and probably go in for $1, but I can't see myself backing fully for product after the clusterfeth that Dungeon Saga was in the end.
What's happening with Warpath? Shipping by the end of this year if we're lucky and the book sometime next year? It'd seem a lot better if they shipped WP before starting the next one.
Azazelx wrote: I'll watch, and probably go in for $1, but I can't see myself backing fully for product after the clusterfeth that Dungeon Saga was in the end.
What's happening with Warpath? Shipping by the end of this year if we're lucky and the book sometime next year? It'd seem a lot better if they shipped WP before starting the next one.
+1 for this; I really want to like Mantic but the continual KS project churn for years now has really started to sour me.
If they could get any of them out the door without some sort of derailment befalling the project, I could maybe overlook it. They always seem to have something waylay their plans and suddenly there's a materials swap or a delayed wave or a completely lost section of orders. Getting their house in order isn't helped by constantly taking on new things to mess it up.
We've been saying that for years now, and I just don't see it getting any better.
Just a quick question for those that did back DS. Are the tiles used similar in quality/thickness to say the ones in zombicide.
I certainly won't be backing this if the card tile pieces are poor quality. I know we'll have no idea until it's actually in our hands, but if DS is top notch, then I guess they'd use the same manufacturers for DS-in-space.
DS tiles are about 60% of the thickness of a Zombicide tile. The core isn't as high a quality card. The print is good but a bit too shiney where as the Zc ones are matte. They are the same thickness as AvP tiles but the print quality is better on those. Overall they are fine but they won't last as long as Zc tiles and the quality isn't the same (but it's not poor quality). The whole feel of DS is cheaper than Zc which admittedly is at the top of it's game (pun intended).
DaveC wrote: DS tiles are about 60% of the thickness of a Zombicide tile. The core isn't as high a quality card. The print is good but a bit too shiney where as the Zc ones are matte. They are the same thickness as AvP tiles but the print quality is better on those. Overall they are fine but they won't last as long as Zc tiles and the quality isn't the same (but it's not poor quality). The whole feel of DS is cheaper than Zc which admittedly is at the top of it's game (pun intended).
So the short of this is the quality of the game isn't good shocker, as its Mantic
While Deadzone 2.0 was a great fix, that was my last plunge into Mantic
I appreciate the honest details though. I was semi interested, at least to see what it will be, but that confirms no pledge here.
I can't say much about DS in relation to other similar products as I own none of those. I think if the Star Saga comes out at a similar quality I wouldn't be opposed to buying into it.
The prices you can get the stuff for on Miniature Market nowadays... 55 or so for the main game, 33 ish per expansion so...I mean I probably got stuff a bit cheaper/kickstarter extras than spending the same money at retail but it's close. And you can pick and choose (and more book boxen via retail sets). So if Star Saga is really really awesome and tempting I'll back, and if not I'll expect to see it at retail for a decent rate like DS.
Having said that, I really wonder if SS will be able to generate half the buzz and backer dollars that DS did. What will really make or break it for me is what the initial hero party looks like and the extra characters added as it (hopefully for them) expands, and what the sets of enemies look like. Maybe we'll get to see some Zzo'r or whatever, or get some extra space-ratmen/plague/whatever to add interest to deadzone forces.
Oh, also... Those sets of dungeon furniture and doors are something like $12.49 a set on miniature market. Scifi equivalents would be most welcome. A few windows and a nicely detailed scifi door can turn almost any vaguely rectangular structure into a nice scifi building (looking at you, Medge scenery sprues) and I think people may order the doors for other scifi boardgames like Imperial Assault (does that even have standee card doors? I don't remember). Not to mention more crates, a weapons locker with actual weapon details built in but not made of expensive resin, and so on... at the aforementioned pricepoint could be quite nice. So even if I end up having no interest in the core game, I certainly hope they do well and follow the suit for the DS release.
Solo and co-op from the start
Based off DS rules changed and simplified where necessary - developed in house
No Adventures Companion all rules developed and integrated at the same time.
Levelling up rules for characters - use any character in any mission
Create your own mercenary rules
Create your own mission rules
KS to flesh out game no new rules add new miniatures, scenery, gaming aids, 3D objectives and new expansions
STAR SAGA – DEVELOPING THE RULES
I’m sure a lot of you are keen to know how it plays. So, I’m here to run you through how it works, how it compares to Dungeon Saga, and where we’re going to take it in the future… See what I did there?
Gimgamgoo wrote: Just a quick question for those that did back DS. Are the tiles used similar in quality/thickness to say the ones in zombicide.
I certainly won't be backing this if the card tile pieces are poor quality. I know we'll have no idea until it's actually in our hands, but if DS is top notch, then I guess they'd use the same manufacturers for DS-in-space.
Completely agree with you on this - the tiles in DS are too thin. For TWD we have moved to a much higher quality card (and we're using a different manufacturer) - over 2.5mm thick, sturdy card, with linen textured printing. It's the TWD quality level we're carrying forward into Star Saga, not the Dungeon Saga quality level .
That all sounds very similar to imperial assault. The main difference being that StarSaga has a lot depending on the decks whereas IA is more based on game and turn triggers
Completely agree with you on this - the tiles in DS are too thin. For TWD we have moved to a much higher quality card (and we're using a different manufacturer) - over 2.5mm thick, sturdy card, with linen textured printing. It's the TWD quality level we're carrying forward into Star Saga, not the Dungeon Saga quality level .
That's good to hear Stew thanks. It looks like a lot of previous issues have been addressed already.
As I said the DS tiles are fine they aren't poor quality but they could they could be better and if compared to something like Zombicide then they will look inferior.
Wow. That rules development brief sounds a lot like what I thought I was pledging for with Dungeon Saga.
I'd like to see a stretch goal for a new Dungeon Saga rulebook applying the Star Saga rules retroactively back to the fantasy setting more than anything else.
I'll pass and wait for the 3rd kickstarter on this, 1 or 2 years down the road, when it will be a more mature product and see if it's worth picking up after they've charged everyone for an FAQ/rules update like they did with DeadZone.
Completely agree with you on this - the tiles in DS are too thin. For TWD we have moved to a much higher quality card (and we're using a different manufacturer) - over 2.5mm thick, sturdy card, with linen textured printing. It's the TWD quality level we're carrying forward into Star Saga, not the Dungeon Saga quality level .
That's good to hear Stew thanks. It looks like a lot of previous issues have been addressed already.
As I said the DS tiles are fine they aren't poor quality but they could they could be better and if compared to something like Zombicide then they will look inferior.
It's funny that this ended up being an issue since it's something that I brought up during the DSKS and was directly and openly mocked by Mantic for suggesting that they would make the tiles too thin. I also suggested that they key them like the D&D boardgame tiles which was also mocked. I sort of feel vindicated but whatever.. it's Mantic.
The actual news for this is moderately exciting though but I just got my HINT pledge in a few days ago. I'm trying to digest that and am waiting, hopefully for the replacement items on MERCs Recon. Where this might have enough appeal to lure me in is simplicity. Almost every attempted sci-fi "dungeon crawler" I've tried to get into is just way too over complicated for what it's trying to be. If this ends up being lightweight, fast, and fun.. I could get into it. That also depends on whether it's going to be baloon-y cartoony or more hard sci-fi.. with Mantic you really never know :/
Psychopomp wrote: Wow. That rules development brief sounds a lot like what I thought I was pledging for with Dungeon Saga.
Pretty much. And it's why I'll be doing what Agnosto does. Along with the lollerskates shipping costs and clownshoes shipping organisation. Especially these days when GW is knocking it out of the park on a regular basis with finished boxed sets filled with top-tier HIPS models.
Mantic needs to pull out their finger and sort out some proper hub shipping options for AU and the US. I'm not ever paying Warpath-style shipping costs again.
agnosto wrote: I'll pass and wait for the 3rd kickstarter on this, 1 or 2 years down the road, when it will be a more mature product and see if it's worth picking up after they've charged everyone for an FAQ/rules update like they did with DeadZone.
This. This comment is perfect and exactly how I feel about Mantic. Changes in GW has brought me back heavily. Buying their board games, getting into 30k, and buying 2 armies for AoS. All I have to show for Mantic is tons of orcs and enforcers, that are literally worthless. At least GW has a resell value.
Psychopomp wrote: Wow. That rules development brief sounds a lot like what I thought I was pledging for with Dungeon Saga.
Pretty much. And it's why I'll be doing what Agnosto does. Along with the lollerskates shipping costs and clownshoes shipping organisation. Especially these days when GW is knocking it out of the park on a regular basis with finished boxed sets filled with top-tier HIPS models.
Mantic needs to pull out their finger and sort out some proper hub shipping options for AU and the US. I'm not ever paying Warpath-style shipping costs again.
It is kind of fun to watch the keystone cops type of product development that Mantic pursues though; if nothing else, I watch these kickstarter threads for the entertainment value as they follow a kind of formula:
1. Teaser
2. Customer excitement
3. Kickstarter starts off with huge numbers
4. Details start to come and people ask questions
5. Mantic drops a bomb about shipping charges or something else that's "off"
6. People become upset
7. Mantic offers as much "value" as possible to quiet the gackstorm and draw people back in
8. Months later they drop something from the kickstarter, change a material without notice, combine two products or otherwise start to change what they promised
9. The end product is "meh" and can generally be bought for cheaper than the kickstarter price
10. Months later a v2 kickstarter is offered to correct the errors of rushed product development, shoddy writing, or just bad decisions by Mantic
11. Cycle repeats with generally smaller buy-in but still profitable.
Churn and burn baby; who needs repeat customers anyway?
Spot on!!! It is so frustrating to see yet another Mantic KS where yet again they (finally) admit how the last one went wrong, but don't worry because they've learnt now.
I read with interest the development blog post with the admission that, perhaps, the DS Adventurer's Companion wasn't quite what had been billed.
It's a game of rapidly diminishing returns. Personally I can't help thinking Mantic are on a bit of a kickstarter treadmill, needing pledges on the next one to cover fulfillment on the last one...
Bull0 wrote: Personally I can't help thinking Mantic are on a bit of a kickstarter treadmill, needing pledges on the next one to cover fulfillment on the last one...
I dont' think there's any evidence of that. I'm as willing to hold Mantic to account as anybody, but the problems with the Kickstarters have generally been logistical, and not financial. Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.
The reason I doubt that Mantic is running borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is because they're able to release products on their own, albeit on a limited scale, and they're actually growing their games in FLGSs.
judgedoug wrote: TBH I could really use a sci fi dungeoncrawler. There's not really any on the market.
Somebody said that exact thing on the last Remote Presence podcast regarding Corvus Belli's proposed idea to do one in the Infinity universe. There are TONS of sci-fi dungeoncrawlers on the market. I'm sure there's many I'm missing, but most of the sci-fi dungeoncrawls instead take the form of "board the derelict spacecraft", most immediate that comes to mind is the obvious Space Hulk and Space Crusade. You've also had the Aliens boardgame and now Aliens vs Predator from what I've seen of that. Doom is still in production iirc from Fantasy Flight, Sedition Wars is still on sale for dirt cheap and plays OKish with the 2.0 rules. And of course there's the monster that is Imperial Assault. It doesn't get any more "sci-fi dungeoncrawl" than the what is literally Descent with a star wars reskin. MERCS had a kickstarter for the soon-to-release MERCS:Recon. I'm sure there's many more, but that's just a few of the big ones.
None of those are sci-fi dungeoncrawlers. I own and love Space Hulk, and have loved it as one of my favorite tactical board games since first edition.
Imperial Assault is nowhere near a dungeoncrawler either. There's no exploration. It's a tactical combat game versus the Imperial player.
Sedition Wars blows, even the v3.0 rules, and again, is just a bad tactical combat game. I'm looking forward to Doom, but again, that's a tactical combat game.
You explore in Imperial OK al Assault just f OK be, the main difference on that front is that you don't build the map as you go. Whereas in Dungeon Saga you open the door and reveal the map and contents.
In Imperial Assault you open the door and reveal the contents of the room. - it makes sense for a Sci if game. You have satellite / thermal imagery of a buildings layout before you arrive but you don't know what the specifics of it are going to be on the day you launch your assault... On the Imperials..
Bull0 wrote: Personally I can't help thinking Mantic are on a bit of a kickstarter treadmill, needing pledges on the next one to cover fulfillment on the last one...
I dont' think there's any evidence of that. I'm as willing to hold Mantic to account as anybody, but the problems with the Kickstarters have generally been logistical, and not financial. Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.
The reason I doubt that Mantic is running borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is because they're able to release products on their own, albeit on a limited scale, and they're actually growing their games in FLGSs.
I'm with you here. The one thing they've done right in their recent slew of Kickstarters is start by saying that they intend to have a limited scope run; the downside is that they still do the same things that they did with the larger-scale Kickstarters. Every single one of these things has been amateur hour and they wind-up treating backers/customers like rubes though I don't attribute any intentional ill-will here, they're just a small company that's pretty poorly run (thus the keystone cops reference). I think that they've learned some lessons but it's a reflection on their management when they continue to make the some of the same mistakes, over-and-over...and over.
Polonius wrote: Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.
They typically aren't on time. There's almost always at least a slight delay, and more often than not, they end up splitting a considerable amount of the fulfilment into a second (or third) wave. Warpath for example is supposed to be shipping now, but there's no sign of that or even of when shipping will actually commence, and the rulebooks are confirmed as some time off yet.
Polonius wrote: Keep in mind that Mantic has delivered their kickstarters on time, even in cases where a bit more development would have helped.
They typically aren't on time. There's almost always at least a slight delay, and more often than not, they end up splitting a considerable amount of the fulfilment into a second (or third) wave. Warpath for example is supposed to be shipping now, but there's no sign of that or even of when shipping will actually commence, and the rulebooks are confirmed as some time off yet.
In Kickstarter terms, anything less then a year's delay is on time
The campaign this time around is a bit more streamlined than in the past, with just one pledge level, which will be priced at $100.00 USD. If you get in early, there will also be an identical version of this pledge, in limited quantities, offered at a discounted price ($90.00).
There will also be a retailer pledge level for those interested and qualifying stores.
The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!
The contents of the core box will include:
• The Rulebook featuring tutorials and basic mechanics for novices, as well as expanded rules for veteran players.
• The Eiras Contract Mission Book with 10 narrative adventures, two intro missions, character bios and the story behind Eiras.
• High Quality Card Sheets with floor tiles and counters
• Four Character cards
• More than 100 Game Cards for equipment, skills, and all the powers of the Nexus player.
• A Selection of Custom Dice
• 32 Highly Detailed Miniatures including:
o Four Mercenary Heroes
o Three Bosses
o 24 Minions
• plus loads of scenery
The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!
Hmm,
...79.99
+ 39.99
+ 39.99
= 159.97 = $160
Is the expansions $30 rather than $40 or did they just add it wrong?
The contents of the core pledge includes the CORE STAR SAGA BOX GAME (MSRP $79.99), the STAR SAGA MISSION CREATOR expansion (MSRP $39.99) and the STAR SAGA CHARACTER CREATOR expansion((MSRP $39.99). That’s $140 in retail value before we’ve met any of our planned stretch goals!
Hmm,
...79.99
+ 39.99
+ 39.99
= 159.97 = $160
Is the expansions $30 rather than $40 or did they just add it wrong?
Yeah, they can't add. So, $100 plus shipping? Yeah, definitely a pass, especially when you consider that $40 for a character creator sounds really odd; how many pages can it be to justify $40? Why not roll the 40 or 50 pages from that book into the 40 or 50 pages of the mission creator and make a "creator book."
Naw, if I'm ever interested at all, I'll wait till it's at Miniature Market for $54.39 (like DS is now) or wait til they have one of big sales and get it for around $40.
Yes, it will be cheaper to pick up the game later.
The real point of backing the Kickstarter will be getting the exclusives and freebies.
For instance, the core game comes with 4 heroes, who wants to bet by the end that KS backers don't get at least 12 ?
Yeah, it's only $5 (at least on the DS campaign) but paying retail plus the $5 for something that I can get shipped free later at 30% off; the savings alone will net me the freebies that they'll package and sell separately so it'll be a wash without having to deal with the rollercoaster ride of a Mantic Kickstarter after they change something, package something differently, or otherwise do their usual thing.
If it's your thing, go for it; I'll wait and see if it's worth it to me later, after they work out the inevitable issues, typos, poor writing, mispacks, etc. In other words, I'm happy to wait for a finished product instead of paying for a beta release that happens to come with a few freebies (DS had a total of 4 Kickstarter exclusive minis plus some art, etc that I wouldn't care about). So, yeah, if you're the type of person that must have the newest Blaine model, backing the KS is probably right up your alley. If you're a casual gamer who wants a refined product, you'll wait or go elsewhere because Mantic has never done it, to date (to my knowledge), straight out of the box.
Compel wrote: Deadzone 2 went completely fine as far as I'm aware...
Or at least it did for me.
Well, it's the terrain kerfuffle with the half pipes that shafted people only getting the terrain pledge... which I did, because Mantic couldn't tell me during the KS exactly how much figures would be needed for each faction. I didn't want to blindly throw money at it, but thought the terrain looked good. Well colour me disappointed.
I jumped off Mars Attacks earlier for the same reason (lack of clarity during the KS), but regretted it later. Bought it at retail plus some of the expansions, would have been nice to get the exclusives for that one...
I backed TWD too, so I'm hoping that one will be smoother. It's not so much that Mantic are not allowed to mess up, but when they do they don't try to fix it.
Your'e aware that Mantic no longer use the cheap, flat rate model for charging shipping that they used way back during Dungeon Siege, aren't you? I guess not, if you think people are being hyperbolic in their expectations. I doubt that many of us here would be freaking out about $10 or $20, but we're most likely looking at a lot more than that.
Here are the presumed shipping bands from Warpath.
Spoiler:
Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $10 to ship in the UK, $15 in the EU, $20 in the USA and Canada, and around $25 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Advanced Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $20 in the EU, $25 in the USA and Canada, and around $50 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Total Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Total Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $60 in the USA and Canada, and around $70 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Ultimate Tyrant
As a rough estimate, the Ultimate Tyrant pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $90 in the USA and Canada, and around $125 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Advanced Warfare was their $125 level, though there's a bit of an apples to oranges thing here as DS, and presumably SS (unfortunate acronym there!) will have what they're saying will be heavy cardstock, plus the game box, etc. And of course we have no idea how many figures it'll have by the end of the campaign, plus what the expansions actually are. I think it'd be safe to presume the shipping will be at least the same for AW, if not more. And of course, there'll be a pile of additional expansions that will drastically increase the shipping costs.
agnosto wrote: $40 for a character creator sounds really odd; how many pages can it be to justify $40? Why not roll the 40 or 50 pages from that book into the 40 or 50 pages of the mission creator and make a "creator book."
I expect that to include something like one of each Warpath infantry sprue.
Compel wrote: You explore in Imperial OK al Assault just f OK be, the main difference on that front is that you don't build the map as you go. Whereas in Dungeon Saga you open the door and reveal the map and contents.
In Imperial Assault you open the door and reveal the contents of the room. - it makes sense for a Sci if game. You have satellite / thermal imagery of a buildings layout before you arrive but you don't know what the specifics of it are going to be on the day you launch your assault... On the Imperials..
#namedrop
I disagree, having just finished playing a campaign for it, it's all about tactical combat and synergy between characters and their abilities/combos. The exploration part of it is basically, oh man, did we get to this objective in time? Is that stupid AT-AT going to be randomly in this tiny room?
Your'e aware that Mantic no longer use the cheap, flat rate model for charging shipping that they used way back during Dungeon Siege, aren't you? I guess not, if you think people are being hyperbolic in their expectations. I doubt that many of us here would be freaking out about $10 or $20, but we're most likely looking at a lot more than that.
Here are the presumed shipping bands from Warpath.
Spoiler:
Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $10 to ship in the UK, $15 in the EU, $20 in the USA and Canada, and around $25 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Advanced Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $20 in the EU, $25 in the USA and Canada, and around $50 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Total Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Total Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $60 in the USA and Canada, and around $70 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Ultimate Tyrant
As a rough estimate, the Ultimate Tyrant pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $90 in the USA and Canada, and around $125 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Advanced Warfare was their $125 level, though there's a bit of an apples to oranges thing here as DS, and presumably SS (unfortunate acronym there!) will have what they're saying will be heavy cardstock, plus the game box, etc. And of course we have no idea how many figures it'll have by the end of the campaign, plus what the expansions actually are. I think it'd be safe to presume the shipping will be at least the same for AW, if not more. And of course, there'll be a pile of additional expansions that will drastically increase the shipping costs.
Agnasto is from the US. I am from the US. $25 shipping for that much stuff overseas is reasonable. $100=/=$25.
You guys in Australia get screwed by GW and Mantic. I'm suprised you don't just game with cardstock models.
Agnasto is from the US. I am from the US. $25 shipping for that much stuff overseas is reasonable. $100=/=$25.
You guys in Australia get screwed by GW and Mantic. I'm suprised you don't just game with cardstock models.
I did say that $20 isn't a biggie. The larger pledges cost quite a lot more - not counting some people being hit for duty etc from items shipped UPS? It'll be interesting to see what the actual postage estimates are for the "boxed set plus all expansions" type pledges to the US. After the last few minis campaigns, there were a lot of US backers who were unpleasantly surprised about the shipping costs.
The funny thing is that if we buy directly from Mantic's webstore, even in Australia we can get free shipping if we spend over a certain amount, but if we save a decent amount, but not that much by buying via KS, we pay a huge percentage on top as shipping... I haven't run the numbers, but it might work out cheaper to buy discounted Mantic with free shipping after release, even for us Aussies. There are also plenty of sources for GW stuff with free shipping or even with shipping added that come in comfortably under local retail prices - which is where the competition for my wallet comes from here. Prospero now or Star Saga in a year? Not a terribly hard choice, unfortunately for Mantic...
Your'e aware that Mantic no longer use the cheap, flat rate model for charging shipping that they used way back during Dungeon Siege, aren't you? I guess not, if you think people are being hyperbolic in their expectations. I doubt that many of us here would be freaking out about $10 or $20, but we're most likely looking at a lot more than that.
Here are the presumed shipping bands from Warpath.
Spoiler:
Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $10 to ship in the UK, $15 in the EU, $20 in the USA and Canada, and around $25 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Advanced Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Advanced Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $20 in the EU, $25 in the USA and Canada, and around $50 to Australia and the rest of the world. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Total Warfare
As a rough estimate, the Total Warfare pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $60 in the USA and Canada, and around $70 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Ultimate Tyrant
As a rough estimate, the Ultimate Tyrant pledge level will cost about $15 to ship in the UK, $25 in the EU, $90 in the USA and Canada, and around $125 to Australia and the rest of the world. The USA Value may decrease if we can secure a shipper in the US to dispatch US kickstarter pledges. This may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.
Advanced Warfare was their $125 level, though there's a bit of an apples to oranges thing here as DS, and presumably SS (unfortunate acronym there!) will have what they're saying will be heavy cardstock, plus the game box, etc. And of course we have no idea how many figures it'll have by the end of the campaign, plus what the expansions actually are. I think it'd be safe to presume the shipping will be at least the same for AW, if not more. And of course, there'll be a pile of additional expansions that will drastically increase the shipping costs.
Agnasto is from the US. I am from the US. $25 shipping for that much stuff overseas is reasonable. $100=/=$25.
You guys in Australia get screwed by GW and Mantic. I'm suprised you don't just game with cardstock models.
I may have to change my handle to that so I can say, "Nasty as I wanna be." (2Live Crew reference).
For me it's not so much the shipping but not knowing which of the multiple personalities that comprises Mantic will show up. When Mantic is focused and actually tries to do a good job, the result isn't bad, when they rush it out and rubber stamp whatever ape-arm model comes out of the machines, not so much. In my opinion, when I consider Mantic products, it's better for me to wait and see what the final product looks like rather than pay an early adopter tax on something I might wind up giving away or tossing later because it's so bad that it just takes up space in my nerd closet (Deadzone). To each their own but I'd rather put the $125+ into some more stock (my other hobby) and likely come out ahead rather than gamble on Mantic actually making a playable game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.
From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.
adamsouza wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.
From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.
I get that...but only so many times to be disappointed till its a lost cause. Someone already mentioned how its gonna go. Starts good, they release actual game info, people drop off cause they see its crap, then mantic throws in 5000 more items to "make it a amazing deal" gets some people back, its delayed cause they added to much, people get it, and the game turns out to be meh, with meh quality figures and not worth it.
That's been just about every mantic KS. Ive been in a bunch of their, don't plan to ever be again til they chance
adamsouza wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.
From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.
I get that...but only so many times to be disappointed till its a lost cause. Someone already mentioned how its gonna go. Starts good, they release actual game info, people drop off cause they see its crap, then mantic throws in 5000 more items to "make it a amazing deal" gets some people back, its delayed cause they added to much, people get it, and the game turns out to be meh, with meh quality figures and not worth it.
That's been just about every mantic KS. Ive been in a bunch of their, don't plan to ever be again til they chance
The problem is that they operate on "good enough" principals rather than an actual attempt to make a quality product the first time. They're so dependent upon Kickstarters that they can't delay long to fix issues (or even take time to find issues) with the current campaign because it will possibly put their whole Kickstarter schedule out of whack. Seriously, it would have taken about 3 games (took my group 1) to find the issues in Deadzone 1 that made it nearly unplayable (hey, look, mortars and frag shut down the entire game).
I get that some of these guys used to work for GW but they don't have the GW customer base to get away with crap rules and crap miniatures again and again. I'll stop posting now but I'll be back when they inevitably foul something up so that I can pull a Nelson (ala Simpsons) and go "Ha! Ha!"
judgedoug wrote: So this is another Mantic News thread which is 95% discussion not about News at all. Mods alerted
I think a robust discussion on Mantic's history with Kickstarters is extremely relevant to a discussion on a Mantic Kickstarter. Past performance being the best indicator of future performance.
I say this a person that spent six months trying to get an add-on from a Mantic Kickstarter, but would still consider backing them. Mantic's business model isn't good, but it's not bad. It's unique, and for some gamers it makes a lot of sense, but for many others it's not worth the cost and wait.
Well, I for one am excited about the potential miniatures. If they use the latest boardgame plastic, the minis should be good quality and easy to work with...so long as they didn't warp in the box during shipping. My DS minis and MA minis were worth their prices (although Valendor has a texture issue that prompted the nickname Prochnow Olmos). DBX had a lot of creative aliens, and if we see some of them transported to the Warpath/SS line, I would be very happy. Mantic's been great with alien and robot representation so far, which goes a long way with me.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Well, I for one am excited about the potential miniatures. If they use the latest boardgame plastic, the minis should be good quality and easy to work with...so long as they didn't warp in the box during shipping. My DS minis and MA minis were worth their prices (although Valendor has a texture issue that prompted the nickname Prochnow Olmos). DBX had a lot of creative aliens, and if we see some of them transported to the Warpath/SS line, I would be very happy. Mantic's been great with alien and robot representation so far, which goes a long way with me.
Hmm, that's a good point. This might be a great way to get a ton of different aliens and other space scum. There's nothing wrong with backing a kickstarter for $100 hoping to eventually get a bucket of sort of generic minis for skirmish or RPG useage. I mean, that was the glory of Bones I back in the day.
Any Mantic kickstarter thread should have this discussion in. Ronnie is a lying ass and the company, after saying 4 kickstarters ago 'No more! No more!' are still churning out the same arguments.
'but we've done retailer pledges' ignoring that for the most part people are looking at the offers and buying from ks and not waiting for the retailer.
'we are a small company' holds less weight everytime it gets trotted out.
Other small companies like Hawk are doing things the right way.
Polonius wrote: Mantic's business model isn't good, but it's not bad. It's unique, and for some gamers it makes a lot of sense, but for many others it's not worth the cost and wait.
It's not a bad business model...
It's not a good business model...
It's THE business model.
Yeah, sorry bout that one
Thebiggesthat wrote: Any Mantic kickstarter thread should have this discussion in. Ronnie is a lying ass and the company, after saying 4 kickstarters ago 'No more! No more!' are still churning out the same arguments.
I sincerely doubt Mantic ever claimed that they were done with using kickstarters to fund projects, especially not as far back as four KS's ago.
Either you mean something else or that's hyperbole/lies from you.
Thebiggesthat wrote: I'll say what I like thanks. Others can choose to take what they want from it.
I'm sorry you don't share the same opinion.
Opinions have nothing to do with this.
Of course you can say what you like but you have given me no reason to believe your claims about what someone allegedly said years ago. Calling someone a "lying ass" and having nothing to back up that claim doesn't exactly work wonders for your credibility either.
Missed the first few. Was wary of Mantic KS based on the concerns raised here. Took the plunge with Dungeon Saga. Quality was okay. Was put off by what was promised versus what they delivered. Have not backed since.
I want to like Mantic. I really do. But I don't have much confidence in them right now.
I only loosely followed their other KSers, but I followed DS closely. One backer, eriochrome, extensively documented what was promised versus what was delivered/changed.
All these promises about Star Saga have an all-too-familiar ring. I don't want to go through DS again.
Yeah, this is very much one of the problems. To compare a couple of recent-ish models, Mantic can produce this:
Spoiler:
or this:
Spoiler:
And you don't know which one you're getting in advance. Yes, I know the horses are from WLG, but the chariots - even taken alone - are garbage.
Ok, they fired and lost the sculptor for the former who also did the DS models - basically the best sculptor they've had working for them in a long time, or possibly ever. (Remy is also hugely talented, but didn't do anything amazing for them, and Naismith's stuff is uneven), which was seemingly due to appalling management, but I'm sure they haven't alienated all of the world's good sculptors...
Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.
No.
If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.
No.
If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.
So, you're saying it's better throw good money after bad? If they thought a rework was in order, they'd be better served to change the aesthetic now or just not release new kits until it's been done. No, I prefer to think that Mantic thinks the elves are fine as is or they wouldn't just throw money away; someone at Mantic likes the current look or we wouldn't see new, ugly kits...beauty and eye of the beholder, etc.
So as far as I am concerned KS is something any company should pursue if it lets them produce more at a quality they want. I have only ever backed 1 mantic KS not because I was disappointed by the first (original deadzone) but because of multiple reasons;
DB xtreme; no interest
KoW 2; didn't know I could transfer my WHF army across otherwise I would have been all in.
DZ infestation; nothing that really grabbed me
Dungeon saga; a severe lack of funds at the time.
Warpath; I already own a lot of stuff for a mass battle Sci fi game.
Walking dead; no interest.
This depending on what I see and what is on offer I may dip in but I am far more interested in the KoW skirmish game
YouKnowsIt wrote: Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.
No.
If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.
So, you're saying it's better throw good money after bad? If they thought a rework was in order, they'd be better served to change the aesthetic now or just not release new kits until it's been done. No, I prefer to think that Mantic thinks the elves are fine as is or they wouldn't just throw money away; someone at Mantic likes the current look or we wouldn't see new, ugly kits...beauty and eye of the beholder, etc.
The issue is not about the aesthetic of those Elf chariots. It's with the execution. Keep the existing Mantic Elf aesthetic, but improve on the execution. This means produce a quality sculpt, not a gakky one. Simples.
Here's an example of keeping the early aesthetic but improving on the newer sculpts. From Mantic.
Spoiler:
Now even if you like the first model, the execution on the second one is far superior - and they both retain the same general aesthetic.
here's a GW example:
Spoiler:
Same deal. Sub-par models don't need to be followed up with more sub-par models. Keep the same general aesthetic, but improve on the sculpt. The Mantic plastic elves aren't that bad as sculpts anyway - I don't much like their skinny nature, but they're reasonable sculpts - but that chariot sculpt is far poorer than the plastic elves standing in them.
Anyway, we digress a little with this, but to bring it back to the main topic - while renders as shown above are a bit "safer", until they actually deliver on the Warpath KS models we won't know how well they turn out in hand. Mantic models based on concept art is far too much of a gamble, though - and the relevance of those chariots comes in at that point since they show that Mantic still finds terribly sub-par models to be acceptable quality to release in 2016 (yes, present-day argument). This unfortunately shows that they're more concerned with releasing anything that they consider "good enough" over having a minimum level of quality that represents quality. So anything without renders or a green is pledged for at our own risk.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
Mantic Elves being spindly has nothing to do with the chariot looking like it is made of Play-doh. That's a result of an incompetent sculptor and Mantic's policy of green-lighting any old piece of crap, not an aesthetic choice.
adamsouza wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Mantic Fanboi. I dropped my Warpath , Dreadball 2.0, and Walking Dead pledges before the KS were finished. I just think we should, you know, actually let them start the kickstarter before people start kicking the crap out of it.
From what people tell me Dungeon Saga is a good game, and this is basically Dungeon Saga 2.0 in space.
Ask about the Adventurer's Companion.
Specifically, what was promised and "sold" to backers, and how it compared to what was delivered. They seem to be making similar promises again on the topic of the rules here, so it's not unreasonable to discuss that, especially so newer and potential backers are aware and informed. Caveat Emptor.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Remember the Elf Chariot had to fit in with the rest of the Elf line (their oldest models), so it's a stylistic limitation, not indicative of modern lines from Mantic.
I disagree. If you have a poor line of models (which fair to say the elves are) then you don't double down with gakky new models as well. You gotta improve them at some point, so may as well start now.
No.
If you're going to do that you relaunch the plastics and work from the base up. You don't piss off people that have already bought armies by changing the aesthetic at some random point.
So, you're saying it's better throw good money after bad? If they thought a rework was in order, they'd be better served to change the aesthetic now or just not release new kits until it's been done. No, I prefer to think that Mantic thinks the elves are fine as is or they wouldn't just throw money away; someone at Mantic likes the current look or we wouldn't see new, ugly kits...beauty and eye of the beholder, etc.
The issue is not about the aesthetic of those Elf chariots. It's with the execution. Keep the existing Mantic Elf aesthetic, but improve on the execution. This means produce a quality sculpt, not a gakky one. Simples.
Here's an example of keeping the early aesthetic but improving on the newer sculpts. From Mantic.
Spoiler:
Now even if you like the first model, the execution on the second one is far superior - and they both retain the same general aesthetic.
here's a GW example:
Spoiler:
Same deal. Sub-par models don't need to be followed up with more sub-par models. Keep the same general aesthetic, but improve on the sculpt. The Mantic plastic elves aren't that bad as sculpts anyway - I don't much like their skinny nature, but they're reasonable sculpts - but that chariot sculpt is far poorer than the plastic elves standing in them.
Anyway, we digress a little with this, but to bring it back to the main topic - while renders as shown above are a bit "safer", until they actually deliver on the Warpath KS models we won't know how well they turn out in hand. Mantic models based on concept art is far too much of a gamble, though - and the relevance of those chariots comes in at that point since they show that Mantic still finds terribly sub-par models to be acceptable quality to release in 2016 (yes, present-day argument). This unfortunately shows that they're more concerned with releasing anything that they consider "good enough" over having a minimum level of quality that represents quality. So anything without renders or a green is pledged for at our own risk.
YouKnowsIt wrote: I don't think those examples mesh stylisticly at all myself.
I agree that the second, the horsemen, not so much but I'd argue that the 1st example, of Mantic's work, maintains the same aesthetic but made for a cleaner, more well defined model. The design elements are all similar. The problem that I would see is that improving minis ad-hoc works well for heroes, which you would expect to look different form rank and file, but they would eventually need to rework the grunts as well.
The chariots are a niche choice for the Mantic range that is pretty universally seen as the weakest. While they are pretty poor models, I don't see them as indicative of their potential going forward.
In other words, of their current releases, if there was anything I'd want them to just poop out a product, it'd be the elf chariots.
This is essentially my Mantic dream game, the sci-fi rpg-lite I always wanted them to make. It just hits late in my Mantic-collecting (and miniature collecting) curve. I would've been in it come hell or high water a couple of years ago. Now I'm interested, but need convincing.
I'll be watching the campaign for committed statements about what the materials used will be (Deadzone 2-style PVC vs. Dungeon Saga PVC, etc.), whether or not the expansions will be coming with additional minis (otherwise they will not sell anywhere near $40 each at retail), and what the diversity and quality of the mini designs are. I expect this is going to be a completely CG sculpted game, like the Walking Dead and Dreadball 2.0; Mantic seem to have ceded the top-tier professional traditional sculptors to companies like CMON, where they continue to work alongside digital sculptors and frequently best them by turning in the most outstanding work. Mantic just isn't willing to pay for Jason Hendricks / French school of Rackham quality hand sculptors anymore. Still, some of Mantic's (freelance) digital sculptors are pretty talented (others not so much).
Personally, I think the Mantic of incredible $ deals is over. That may well reflect market realities / profit margins, but coupled with Mantic's tendency to go light on must-have exclusives, there's less and less reason to "buy in now!" on their KS campaigns. More and more, you need to do so for altruistic reasons, i.e., you just want to see the game get made. I could be persuaded on that basis - this is exactly the kind of game I've always wanted Mantic to make, as I said - but it's by nature a harder sell and requires more up-front evidence that the game will, in fact, be amazing when it ships. I'm not motivated to back any old sci-fi RPG lite boardgame, just a very good one that my family will enjoy. I'm willing to take the risk when the promise and evidence of design / execution is high, as I did with Black Plague, which has paid off in family play at my house in spades.
I will say that I hope there will be far more than 4 highly varied characters to field in the game by campaign's end. 4 is a puny amount when compared to the amount you get with CMON boardgames.
I had no problems with DZ2 Arrived quickly and correct. The metals are hit and miss if anything I would have wanted them to switch all the metals over. The fish guy, ogre and kalyishi are all average based on previous Mantic metals and the handful of other metals I've got. The orcs arms will need work. All the new PVC is really good. The new plastics are good too. not as crisp as something like malifuax. The steel warriors are a nice kit with room for customization. The mat and terrain are as good as well. The rule book had a fair amount of to be FAQ'd. Most are inconsequential spelling mistakes, but some were a fairly large oversights. The cardboard for tokens in DZ2 wasn't the best. The Infestation supplement was mostly error free.
The material switch was the only feth up on DZ2, If you consider a higher quality material a problem. I couldn't imagine the rat queen in metal lol.
The elf chariot is bad but seems old, like an older unreleased sculpt maybe? Aren't those horses used in another kit somewhere?
I won't be backing star saga as I want to move out of sci-fi for a bit. I wanted to buy TWD at retail but my shop is closed for a couple months. Maybe when they open back up.
Here's some not yet seen artwork from the Weekender
Top left - Space "Vampire" she's a healer type that sucks life force and uses it to heal.
Teraton - Probably a Technician type
Top Right was described as a Robot nothing more on him/it
Bottom left - Forgefather with servo arm harness - he can deploy sentry guns
Bottom right - Chovar he's one of the 3 bosses in the game. They can store data so you'll probably have to retrieve it from one.
The first 4 are all stretch goals they are not in the base game.
Not much else revealed really just that teams are built using a point limit you are free to build and equip a team however you like within the point s limit.
That robot in the top right reminds me of the Advanced Scout from Infestation before they redid her art. Looks like her design might have been somewhat salvaged?
I'll be giving this a look come Monday at the very least. I can't help but be a sucker for most Mantic campaigns.
Myrthe wrote: "Dungeon Saga was praised ..." By whom ?!!
"Star Saga will feature ... more detailed, adcanced mechanics ...". Like they promised Dungeon Saga would during the Kickstarter to raise pledge levels only to fall WAY short in fulfillment ?!!
Mantic has run twelve Kickstarters to date. 12 !! They say they improve and learn with every one but read what customers have to say about them.
If you're interested, do yourself a favor and take a look at their KS history and read the comments. Do your due diligence before you choose to invest.
They lost me and my dollars with the way they botched Dungeon Saga with all the broken promises, pathetic delivery and offensive treatment of customers.
Yup. I've been a backer for most of the KSs and have been impressed in the wrong direction. They do each one the same. Half baked rules, minis thrown into tiny plastic baggies with no labeling or instructions (some of which tear open, leaking swords/legs/guns all over the box and who knows where), everything about all (literally all. no exceptions that I've seen) their KS projects is so amateur.
I've backed:
KoW KoW2
Deadzone
Dungeon Saga (hugely disappointed with this one)
Warpath (just the rules)
Dreadball 2nd ed (just the rules)
They might get a buck from me to follow along, but otherwise I'm waiting for retail
It says All artwork not final, it looks like they are going for a case design for the box but yeah the tiles need a lot of work.
This is also the 2nd KS they have relied on renders only not a single miniature printed or painted which is not a good trend IMO.
I like the look of the 3D objectives as the first stretch goal hopefully they will make them available as optional purchases as well. It's clear that some of the stretch goals will be for alternate sculpts for the minions the video even briefly flashes through them.
Agreed, not a good trend at all, I just find it hard to back anything when you have no finished product to see. Mantic are a lot better at matching things up to renders and concept art now but there is always the worry that things will be changed in what an individual backer regards as a negative way. At least Mantic are giving themselves sensible lead time to do things properly, hopefully this turns I to a great deal for the backers.
Well, they have confirmed everything most people said about them. Checking out the page, looks horrible. As expected.
No actual painted minis, and the tiles....wow. Pretty sure I could give a kid crayons and let them draw on white paper and it would look better then those tiles.
I'm in for now. I liked Dungeon Saga so we'll see where this one goes. It does seem a little less "fancy" than DS did when it first launched if I remember right, but the sculpts look great so far.
I backed for the early bird but for myriad reasons I foresee dropping out. Sometimes these are fun to watch though and who knows, they may hook me before it's over.
MrDwhitey wrote: I just hope they change the tiles. I've pledged for now but we'll see.
Same here. That was what really put me off DS. The tile artwork for Project Pandora was pretty good (as a point of reference for how these might look in the end) but I just can't stand those tiny corridor sections that are 1x1 or 2x1 because you are working with something that is not much bigger than a counter. Yes, adding a black border to the sides of the those tiles (ala Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk..) means they take up more space on the sheet but it makes for a much nicer board game 'piece'.
I'm also in with an Early Bird, but they're very much going to have to work to keep me with this one. I'm very disappointed with the DS Adventurer's Companion, so I'm going to need to see some details on the character and mission creators to stay in at the end.
I want a highly customizable dungeon crawler with plenty of support for using my imagination and Mantic minis collections to keep playing, and that's what I thought I was getting with DS (specifically the Adventurer's Companion.) What we got there was some half-baked add-ons to Jake Thornton's Heroquest clone on rails. I'm not going to back something like that again.
DaveC wrote: It says All artwork not final, it looks like they are going for a case design for the box but yeah the tiles need a lot of work.
This is also the 2nd KS they have relied on renders only not a single miniature printed or painted which is not a good trend IMO.
I like the look of the 3D objectives as the first stretch goal hopefully they will make them available as optional purchases as well. It's clear that some of the stretch goals will be for alternate sculpts for the minions the video even briefly flashes through them.
Yeah, lots of warning signs here - I think this one has become a definite 'wait until retail' for me.
$100k funding goal met on to Stretch goal #1 - 3D objectives. The samples in the video look very nice and will add in well to Deadzone terrain. The video also shows 3 types of benches I guess the final make up of the set depends on mold limits.
Our first goal, at $130,000, will fund the additional tooling required to upgrade the scenery in your pledge from printed cardboard to 3D plastic, including laboratory desks, crates, and computer terminals. This will also give us back some space on the tile sheets for a few more corridors to make larger and more interesting map layouts!
Minis are same plastics as Walking Dead, which are fantabulous, so for once in a Mantic KS I actually have no concern over the quality of the final miniatures.
If the Walking Dead stuff is at least comparable to what I got with Deadzone Infestation, at the very least I've got no worries about material quality.
I hope they learned a lesson about packaging adds on and expansions. Hopefully no more weird boxes!
I did notice that the base game will ship alone, with all add ons coming later. That's a good sign that maybe packaging will be better taken care of. Hopefully.
I'm more worried about the cardstock used for the tiles, counters and cards. Only good cardstock I've had from Mantic was DB1. The tiles are only 2.5 and Mantic are not known for their quality items. Though I am impressed that the box content will have vac formed plastic to put your goods in.
I'm in for $1 for now. We'll see h things go with this. There's a few things I see that I like though. I like that we're apparently getting new versions of the DZ1 mercs. Wrath's new design looks good and I'm totally down for another Survivor.
We are still finalising the exact tooling capacity, but the total number of scenery pieces in the game will be around 30 - a mix of tables, crates, cabinets, containment tanks, and computer terminals.
So what's up next? Can you say new character?
An exciting feature of Star Saga is the ability to use any character to play through the story. This goal will give you more choice to do just that – we will upgrade the core game with Alyse, a member of the secretive race known as the Kayowa. She has the ability to drain the life-force of her enemies, and can even redirect this energy back into her comrades, healing their wounds, making her an invaluable member of any infiltration team.
When we hit $150,000, Alyse will be added into the Star Saga core game as a playable character, along with her character card. We will post more on Alyse's story in a future update. Let's go get her!
Mantic Games
Oops, sorry. I can't count... I must have included some doors - it's more like 20-25 scenery pieces not counting the doors. Ideal plan is 6 terminals, 6 tables, 6 crates, 6 cabinets, and 2 containment tanks, of varying designs, but I will probably have to cut one or two when I get the final tooling plan back. I've tweaked the update.
On the plus side, there are alpha rules available from the get go. Hopefully we'll see more finalized examples of the co-op mode as well as the character creator and mission generator prior to the end of the campaign.
There's also the print and play pieces at the end of those rules for those interested in trying things out themselves.
Definitely interested in the scenery bits. Those were some of my favorite parts of dungeon saga.
Definitely interested in the scenery bits. Those were some of my favorite parts of dungeon saga.
Same here. And that was also the case for Sedition Wars. Sad when the best part of these over-promised games turn out to be the scenic element add-ons. I'm not going to pay a premium for them anymore by pledging for what might likely be another over-hyped, subpar game. I'll get the accessory terrain at retail. Maybe the game if it proves itself once delivered.
FWIW, I think I'm gonna drop down to $1 just to watch and maybe get in on the pledge manager later.. if anyone wants my EB pledge spot let me know and we'll set up a time. Might be better to wait a couple days though to make sure someone else doesn't jump in before you, since it's day 1 and getting the most traffic today
Ahtman wrote: $100 dollar starting pledge? I guess the pretense of anything other than being a pre-order system for them is gone.
I'm not really disputing the conclusion (most Kickstarters from medium sized companies or larger are mainly pre-orders by another name) but I don't see what a $100 starting pledge has to do with it?
The artwork looks really blah to me - so much white and so clean, and there are far too many duplicate poses on those miniatures. Not feeling this at all. My $100 can buy far better elsewhere.
I didn't come here just to bash, though. I do honestly hope the game play is stellar. It's the truth that there are just not enough good sci-fi dungeon-crawl style games.
Hitting this goal will allow us to double the tooling required for the game’s Minions, so we can double the number of poses to 12 for more variety in your games. We have created new miniatures for the Lab Technician, Security Guard, Corporation Marine and Plague Victim, all shown below, which will be added to the production schedule.
With this goal, we will add an all new mission to the end of the story, capturing the final showdown between the Mercenary Strike Team and ‘Monarch’, the Council’s representative on Eiras. Monarch will have a miniature and character card, which will be added to the core game as a new boss.
Alyse looks decent to me. She (it?) is an alien after all so I have no problem with a big head. Reminds me a bit of the Independence day aliens.
Much of the head might be bladders, empry space or something porous with little weight so I wouldn't say it's anywhere near as problematic as the undersized troll legs.
Ahtman wrote: $100 dollar starting pledge? I guess the pretense of anything other than being a pre-order system for them is gone.
I'm not really disputing the conclusion (most Kickstarters from medium sized companies or larger are mainly pre-orders by another name) but I don't see what a $100 starting pledge has to do with it?
All the seminars I attended on the subject talked about the sweet spot which is around $20 or $30, though that isn't always true of course. Many KSs also have had a $1 or $5 pledge those who want to keep an eye on it, just to sort of help, or whatever. This has absolutely none of those things. There really aren't much above it either as you have the individual order and the retail order... and that is essentially all there really is. Instead of being rewarded for investing you are rewarded for pre-ordering. If one wants to do that it is fine, but it isn't a great way to do a KS to be honest.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Unfortunately the collar seems to be roughly the dimensions of the concept art.
The collar in the first image goes straight up from the shoulders, rather like a tube. Unless it's safety-pinned in place, it should slide right to the floor. In the render, it's cinched around the neck, which I think makes the head look bigger in comparison.
Ahtman wrote: $100 dollar starting pledge? I guess the pretense of anything other than being a pre-order system for them is gone.
I'm not really disputing the conclusion (most Kickstarters from medium sized companies or larger are mainly pre-orders by another name) but I don't see what a $100 starting pledge has to do with it?
All the seminars I attended on the subject talked about the sweet spot which is around $20 or $30, though that isn't always true of course. Many KSs also have had a $1 or $5 pledge those who want to keep an eye on it, just to sort of help, or whatever. This has absolutely none of those things. There really aren't much above it either as you have the individual order and the retail order... and that is essentially all there really is. Instead of being rewarded for investing you are rewarded for pre-ordering. If one wants to do that it is fine, but it isn't a great way to do a KS to be honest.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm just really uncomfortable with them saying they don't know how many (or exactly what) scenery pieces are going to be done
Wouldn't it be cool to know how many doors and how many of which terrain items you needed for the included scenarios? And wouldn't it be cool for Mantic to supply that with the pledge?
Ahtman wrote: $100 dollar starting pledge? I guess the pretense of anything other than being a pre-order system for them is gone.
I'm not really disputing the conclusion (most Kickstarters from medium sized companies or larger are mainly pre-orders by another name) but I don't see what a $100 starting pledge has to do with it?
All the seminars I attended on the subject talked about the sweet spot which is around $20 or $30, though that isn't always true of course. Many KSs also have had a $1 or $5 pledge those who want to keep an eye on it, just to sort of help, or whatever. This has absolutely none of those things. There really aren't much above it either as you have the individual order and the retail order... and that is essentially all there really is. Instead of being rewarded for investing you are rewarded for pre-ordering. If one wants to do that it is fine, but it isn't a great way to do a KS to be honest.
I've pledged $1.
Well we'll get you an internet cookie but it doesn't change that the only two options presented are the $100 option and the $250 option. Someone above also pointed out that there will be a way to get get just the terrain but it still isn't an option on the page. Presenting only two options but really having others isn't really helping with the perception that isn't being handled all that well. Considering the amount of Kickstarters Mantic has done I get the impression they are experimenting with their format.
Ahtman wrote: $100 dollar starting pledge? I guess the pretense of anything other than being a pre-order system for them is gone.
I'm not really disputing the conclusion (most Kickstarters from medium sized companies or larger are mainly pre-orders by another name) but I don't see what a $100 starting pledge has to do with it?
All the seminars I attended on the subject talked about the sweet spot which is around $20 or $30, though that isn't always true of course. Many KSs also have had a $1 or $5 pledge those who want to keep an eye on it, just to sort of help, or whatever. This has absolutely none of those things. There really aren't much above it either as you have the individual order and the retail order... and that is essentially all there really is. Instead of being rewarded for investing you are rewarded for pre-ordering. If one wants to do that it is fine, but it isn't a great way to do a KS to be honest.
I've pledged $1.
Well we'll get you an internet cookie but it doesn't change that the only two options presented are the $100 option and the $250 option. Someone above also pointed out that there will be a way to get get just the terrain but it still isn't an option on the page. Presenting only two options but really having others isn't really helping with the perception that isn't being handled all that well. Considering the amount of Kickstarters Mantic has done I get the impression they are experimenting with their format.
I'm not defending them, I'm just pointing out that the $1 pledge is available.
You see "experimenting with their format", I see "making it up as they go along".
CptJake wrote: Wouldn't it be cool to know how many doors and how many of which terrain items you needed for the included scenarios? And wouldn't it be cool for Mantic to supply that with the pledge?
They are included in the pledge in sufficient numbers for the scenarios in the game. The add ons are just for those that want more
there is enough in the core game to play all of the missions - you'll only need more if you are designing your own missions or using it for other games.
I like these 3D terrain items and the bigger part of what was shown already. The general game idea looks interesting too. I will buy either the game or the scenery only after it was released.
CptJake wrote: Wouldn't it be cool to know how many doors and how many of which terrain items you needed for the included scenarios? And wouldn't it be cool for Mantic to supply that with the pledge?
They are included in the pledge in sufficient numbers for the scenarios in the game. The add ons are just for those that want more
there is enough in the core game to play all of the missions - you'll only need more if you are designing your own missions or using it for other games.
Great. Where is that info found? Is it buried in the comments somewhere?
Would have been mighty useful to put that either in the update(s) about scenery or on the main page when describing the add on.
And honestly, since they don't even know what scenery they are going to include, I don't have much faith in an answer that will get buried in the comments. Rules are in draft, do they even have the final set of included scenarios designed yet? How do they know how many of XXXX they'll need?
In Mars Attacks they ended up printing a scenario in the core box that needed 4 Saucers and I'm certain there was no advance warning on this, even the uber huge pledge only included 3. Pretty much everyone who wanted to play that out had to buy 1 retail. So...
I'm totally getting that terrain tho. Mantic terrain is good.
So the postage is fixed and in the pledge except if you buy add ons then you have to pay extra in the pledge manager later that are not determined yet.
But this is mentioned nowhere except in comment from Mantic...
And this was chosen to make postage clearer and more transparent? for new backers???
It's been on the campaign page since the project started. Many people don't read all of the campaign page or the FAQ to see exactly what they are backing.
Shipping
Shipping for the core pledge will be charged when you select a reward from the bar on the right. The core pledge will ship in a single package via Royal Mail, and will ship from the UK.
All add-ons outside the core pledge (which will be detailed in the updates if applicable) will ship in a separate package at a later date, and shipping for these will be charged in the pledge manager after the campaign has finished. These packages will be shipped by Royal Mail if possible, or by courier, depending on the size and weight of items selected.
$15 shipping for me, so quite chuffed that I'm not paying through the nose for that one for a change.
Though we'll see whether or not I'll keep this pledge. $105,- incl. shipping is tempting for all the stuff promised, it's the delivery that worries me..
DaveC wrote: It's been on the campaign page since the project started. Many people don't read all of the campaign page or the FAQ to see exactly what they are backing.
Buried and strategically placed under the UE friendly sign instead of been one solid text.
Not in the FAQ even though it was mentioned a lot yesterday, I don't know I checked the page a few times before I posted it and could not find it in a casual read.
Found the shipping information easily, not sure what the problem this time is? I just wish they would start using GBP as they are a British company afterall.
Given the amount of people asking about it yesterday, it was clearly not that evident, maybe for this one I am one of the mass of people incapable of reading, maybe it should be written clearer, or as a separate entry and not like an afterthought were it is and on a not so relevant FAQ entry.
Maybe since it was raised yesterday and promised they would add it to the FAQ they should do it.
Anyway onward, it still goes upward in a crawling speed...
Through his network of underground contacts, Blaine has been offered a job. It is a simple one, though not without risk. Data relating to vaccine development has been stolen from the client corporation and taken to a research facility hidden beneath the surface of Eiras. The job is to recover this data and destroy all records of its presence.
Nothing, of course, goes to plan. The team quickly finds their cover blown at the entrance to the complex when their counterfeit credentials are exposed. As the team fight their way deeper into the facility, they are able to retrieve a few scant clues as to the truth of the facility’s purpose - it is owned by Mazon Labs and its chief scientist, Dr Lucas Koyner is working on something called ‘Vector-P’ in the lower levels.
Though neither the team nor Blaine know it, they have actually been contracted by an agent of the Council of Seven. Koyner’s work is part of Project Gorgon, the Council’s most secret research group, tasked with thinking the unthinkable - including working to control and utilise the Plague. Koyner has come close to a breakthrough, but as clever as he is, Koyner has become greedy. There are many potential buyers for such a powerful property and Koyner has been caught discussing its sale. The decision has been made to eliminate him and take what he has created elsewhere. Of course, the Council can't be seen to interfere with one of their top corporations and need plausible deniability, so it is Blaine's team that are selected as assassins (and scapegoats) for the job.
All of this leads to the final showdown with Koyner, and then Monarch, but I won't spoil the ending. You'll have to play through the game to find out more!
The Wider Universe
As many of you know, Star Saga is a part of our over-arching Warpath Universe, the fictional realm that encompasses many of our games - Warpath, Deadzone, DreadBall, and now Star Saga.
As some have noticed, several characters (Wrath, Selvaggio), species (Plague, Chovar) and companies (Mazon Labs, Trontek), amongst others, have crossed over from one game into another, and most importantly, so will the miniatures - the style, scale and base sizes are all fully compatible.
The Character Creator will include rules for as many different races from the Warpath universe as we can – this means you can take your favourite figures from your Warpath and Deadzone factions and play them through the Star Saga scenarios. As we flesh out the Mission Creator we also want to expand the bestiary to include all the basic grunts as well, so you can play a game against a Plague or Asterian force. You can of course also drop all of the Star Saga minis into your Warpath and Deadzone factions too for a bit of variety.
For Deadzone, after development on Star Saga is finished we are planning an expansion based around a Mercenary faction, led by Blaine of course, which will allow you to use the new Star Saga characters in Deadzone.
As you can see, it's all linked up so that you can use your collection in as wide a way as possible, and continue building the story of your characters - the stories are what we all do this for anyway!
Any some news on the possible expansions
1. Solat’s Run
A rogue ship’s captain has stolen something of enormous value - his ship and its cargo! Captain Epher Solat is already well on his way to sell the ‘Orca’ to a rival corporation - he must be stopped. Solat has taken the Orca out of range of any of the rightful owner’s vessels but not Blaine’s team’s. Using the ship they ‘acquired’ at the end of the Eras Contract, Captain Dulinsky and her crew’s next mission is to intercept the Orca as it passes through their sector, board it, and stop it reaching its destination. However, Solat didn’t realise he was transporting a Plague artefact…
This campaign will use more minions from the core game and introduce new bosses (Solat is a Sphyr) in a new story that advances the Eiras Contract narrative. This is an exciting sequel that build further on the characters of Dulinsky and her team.
2. Retake the Blackstar Station
The space station orbiting Spurling III has been seized by a nest of Veer-myn. Its owners, Blackstar Corp, want it back. All efforts thus far to achieve this have been expensive failures. The station was originally built as a defensive platform owing to its proximity to Asterian space and, though its weapons were largely thought to have been decommissioned, the Veer-myn have been able to reactivate them. Blaine’s team have been called in as something of a last resort, a final chance to take the station intact before its owners are forced to cut their losses and abandon the technology hidden aboard the Blackstar station.
This one takes the adventure into outer space aboard a space station which will provide some unique new bits of gameplay. It also introduces the ever popular Veer-myn.
3. The Graviton Directive
Convinced that the Tesseract’s policies towards the GCPS are misguided, Tui Hu Shu’u’lak, leader of the Clade of White Blades, has taken matters into his own hands. With the aid of the Graviton Cascade, a device capable of collapsing the fields used by McKinley drives, the White Blades mean to claim vast swathes of territory for themselves and a resurgent Asterian Empire. Blaine’s team must stop him, take the Cascade’s noh core, and eliminate Tui Hu himself before he can drag the GCPS and the Asterians into all-out war.
Note that the titles and details are not quite carved in stone, but this should offer a good glimpse at what kinds of campaigns to expect in future expansions. They illustrate the many possibilities that present themselves in a science fiction dungeon crawler. As well as the ideas above, I hear Forge Fathers might be popular too, and what could be better suited to a dungeon crawler than a dwarven hold...
So it sounds like they have ideas for a mini expansion and 3 full expansions. I'd guess Solat’s Run will get added to the pledge level as it's not a full expansion. DS expansions where $25 each.
Is it wrong to feel like this is not moving as quick as it could be? I know there's a lot of ill will from the Dungeon Saga campaign still looming around, but I'm not feeling the enthusiasm or excitement for this project.
I'd like to, don't get me wrong.
Doesn't help that Mantic has a lot of competition in the gameplay department right now with stuff like Mutant Chronicles throwing all kinds of stuff at backers for a relatively comparable price.
Personally, I feel this project is not as presentable as it should be (even as a KS project). I have backed a few Mantic projects, with no ill will, and I just find this one completely unattractive. Looks so half-baked.
Combine that with Mantic's Missteps through the years, and I think we end up where we are now: a nice big boost out of the gate from the people who like what Mantic's cooking, and then we'll get a big, long, slow lull in the middle until Mantic tries to 'up the value', and then a little spike at the end.
After Warpath fizzled, I'm not sure Mantic's got another 'Million Dollar Campaign" in them, and that's probably a good thing.
I think it's just because people are tired of Mantics KSatm. Especially when the rules don't feel complete or are undercooked upon release. I think the campaign and page look fine.
It might have helped to wait until the warpath ks had shipped and stuff like the new GCPS minis were in people's hands. From the photos we've seen those look good and similar to a lot of the minis on offer here so that might have assuaged some fears on the quality.
We're closing in on Monarch, and then it's on to the next phase - expanding the game with more characters, more minis, and more exciting new features to make this the game we all want it to be. We've been coy up to now, but as anyone familiar with our boss man Ronnie will know, we can't keep secrets for long
It's time for a bumper update with all the exciting new stuff to come over the next few days. Here goes...
$205,000 Free Minions!
The new reinforcement rules in Star Saga allow the Nexus player to bolster their forces at key points in the game, and it’s always useful to have more choice in what to use. With this goal we hope to increase the figure count of the pledge with an additional set of three Security Guard miniatures, ideal for when you need some firepower to back up your forces.
$215,000 The Survivor - Kickstarter Exclusive Model & Exclusive Campaign!
With the research into the Plague virus being done on Eiras, the Survivor has a personal stake in the mission. This goal will allow us to bring him/her/it? into the story as a Kickstarter Exclusive upgrade to the pledge. You will receive a new Mercenary miniature for the Survivor along with a character card detailing his rules.
This is the second of the KS Exclusive models now, and we want to ensure that our loyal Kickstarter backers get the best use out of them. Therefore we will also create a new campaign that follows the core game, with a series of scenarios that uses all of the Kickstarter exclusives. This will be printed in the mission book in your Kickstarter pledge and won't be available in the retail copy. We'll post more details in a following update.
$220,000 More Free Minions!
Extra Lab Technicians always come in handy – as the lowest cost reinforcements they are great for swarming the Mercenaries and blocking corridors. When we hit this goal we will add two more Lab Technician miniatures into the pledge level.
$230,000 Ogan Helkkare, Forge Father Engineer
Following in the footsteps of Alyse, again we want to use this goal to expand the choice for players by adding Ogan to the core game. He is a Dwarven Engineer – the toughest character so far, with the ability to place sentry guns and force fields around the board to protect his team.
$240,000 Kizai Uru, Tsudochan Monk
The Character Creator doesn’t just limit you to the races of the characters in the core game – we will be featuring rules and abilities for many other inhabitants of the Warpath universe. One such race is the Tsudochan – highly intelligent aliens with such sophisticated technology that to the uneducated it looks like magic…
To get you started with all the new character rules, we want to add some Mercenary models into the Character Creator expansion. The first of these is Kizai Uru, and this goal will add him and his card into the Character Creator, included as part of your pledge!
$245,000 3D Sentry Guns and Force Fields
The earlier sneak peek at Ogan has gone down rather well with all of the Dwarf fans out there, and it seems a shame to have him running around with boring cardboard counters. If we hit this goal, we’ll add a few more components to the tool and take his equipment into the third dimension, replacing the sentry gun and force field generator counters with 3D plastic models - 2 of each.
$250,000 Project Pandora: Grim Cargo
Back in 2012 we launched Star Saga’s distant ancestor, Project Pandora (which you can see examples of in our gameplay video – we are using the components for our playtesting!). It was based on the old Dwarf King’s Hold mechanics, with some innovative changes to the activation system, and it told the story of a Veer-myn infested Corporation ship, the Grim Cargo. With this goal, we will reinvigorate Project Pandora, updating the rules in line with the improvements we’ve made to Star Saga, and we will provide a digital copy of the updated rules in your pledge.
All of these have been added to the diagram on the front page. Once we hit all of these, the Core Pledge will be worth over $160 at MSRP, and we want to double that by the end. Please, share this with your friends and you can help us get there!
Myrthe wrote: "Dungeon Saga was praised ..." By whom ?!!
"Star Saga will feature ... more detailed, adcanced mechanics ...". Like they promised Dungeon Saga would during the Kickstarter to raise pledge levels only to fall WAY short in fulfillment ?!!
Mantic has run twelve Kickstarters to date. 12 !! They say they improve and learn with every one but read what customers have to say about them.
If you're interested, do yourself a favor and take a look at their KS history and read the comments. Do your due diligence before you choose to invest.
They lost me and my dollars with the way they botched Dungeon Saga with all the broken promises, pathetic delivery and offensive treatment of customers.
If they can get the quality and replayability up where it needs to be it'll be cool, but given Mantic's track record I'll wait until I see reviews before I risk that sort of cash
So far it feels unimpressive and Mantic seem to not put any effort to motivate backers.
Stretch goals do not seem to add value and the whole design feels uninspired.
It somehow feels like a KS not done by Mantic, maybe it is the fatigue of their various missteps, I see complains everywhere about it, especially for dungeon Saga, its a bit sad because I would really want to see this one become something good.
Well I've just had a mantic email saying they're looking for rules committee people for dungeon saga (free download of eventual changes promised for KS backers) ......
and if they get on well with it they may get to play with Star Saga too
a good thing on one hand as the RC has made a good job of the stuff they've done with Kings of War, on the other hand it probably means they won't get a chance to do anything before version 1 in out and in peoples hands so we'd likely be looking at a version 2 reletivlely soon afterwards
but on the other hand it's almost an admission that Star
Why can't they try to make it work good from the start? they better recruit a rules committee for star saga and dungeon Saga or Star Saga alone and make sure they deliver that properly and then work with dungeon Saga...
lord_blackfang wrote: So outsourcing rules design to volunteers is pretty much the business plan now. Maybe they do the same for models, it would explain some sculpts.
Hey, they could always pull a DeadZone and run another KS for the fixed version of the rules.
lord_blackfang wrote: So outsourcing rules design to volunteers is pretty much the business plan now. Maybe they do the same for models, it would explain some sculpts.
Hey, they could always pull a DeadZone and run another KS for the fixed version of the rules.
lord_blackfang wrote: So outsourcing rules design to volunteers is pretty much the business plan now. Maybe they do the same for models, it would explain some sculpts.
Hey, they could always pull a DeadZone and run another KS for the fixed version of the rules.
To be fair, and KS fulfilment issues aside, the KoW rules went from very good to even better. The out of print so tidy up a 2e rather than simply reprinting rationale there i felt was reasonable. It wasn't a massive overhaul nor were the 1e rules inherently flawed, though it did suffer from "aspect the writer wasn't much interested in (sieges, campaigns) gets mostly passed over with lip service"...
Azazelx wrote: To be fair, and KS fulfilment issues aside, the KoW rules went from very good to even better. The out of print so tidy up a 2e rather than simply reprinting rationale there i felt was reasonable. It wasn't a massive overhaul nor were the 1e rules inherently flawed, though it did suffer from "aspect the writer wasn't much interested in (sieges, campaigns) gets mostly passed over with lip service"...
Mantic got Jake (who barely/never plays KoW because he wrote his own equivalent system that Mantic didn't pick up and Foundry later did, before treating it like a ginger-haired step-child) to write the Siege and Campaign rules for 1st Ed.
If I had to bet on the amount of actual, practical play-testing they got, it would be a very low guess
On the plus side, it does look like Mantic have given up on getting Jake to write campaign/progression systems now.
Jake is brilliant at core rules design, poor at playtesting and balance. A two-stage process is good to tidy up his stuff, but I can't approve of Mantic's reliance on volunteer work.
I see nothing wrong with that its what computer games industry has been doing for years and on many occasions quite successfully and lets not forget PP did it quite recently, what I have problem with is that they do it after they spend resources to print the rules waste money on them tarnish their reputation angry people and then rely on volunteer to find the issues and re release the game in a better state, spending again resources for it.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I see nothing wrong with that its what computer games industry has been doing for years and on many occasions quite successfully and lets not forget PP did it quite recently, what I have problem with is that they do it after they spend resources to print the rules waste money on them tarnish their reputation angry people and then rely on volunteer to find the issues and re release the game in a better state, spending again resources for it.
First thing you've said in this thread that I can wholeheartedly agree with.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I see nothing wrong with that its what computer games industry has been doing for years and on many occasions quite successfully and lets not forget PP did it quite recently, what I have problem with is that they do it after they spend resources to print the rules waste money on them tarnish their reputation angry people and then rely on volunteer to find the issues and re release the game in a better state, spending again resources for it.
No. The computer games industry and PP recruits playtesters to find bugs in a completed but unpolished product. Mantic proposes recruiting people to write the rules for them because they can't seem to be arsed to write their own or hire an in-house rules writer(s) instead of shooting money at Jake whenever they run a kickstarter to hash something together in a relatively short period of time, rubber stamping it at "good enough", and sending it out as a finished product....typos, inconsistencies and all.
They obviously don't want to be a professional organization or produce a viable product outside of the captive fan-base/kickstarter crowd.
I think the rules committee approach is probably best at this point to get the work done to a quality standard. A single person won't get everything right, it needs peer review, playtesting and iterative development.
Dungeon Saga committee is a very good idea, hopefully it can cover Star Saga as well. I won't be applying since I don't want my attention diluted over multiple systems, Deadzone is my focus.
I really enjoyed Dungeon Saga, and have a copy of Project Pandora which I'm looking forward to having a rules update for.
Very happy with the Kickstarter so far, only real issue was it coming hot on the heels of Dreadball 2.0, so funds are a little lacking.
agnosto wrote: No. The computer games industry and PP recruits playtesters to find bugs in a completed but unpolished product. Mantic proposes recruiting people to write the rules for them because they can't seem to be arsed to write their own or hire an in-house rules writer(s) instead of shooting money at Jake whenever they run a kickstarter to hash something together in a relatively short period of time, rubber stamping it at "good enough", and sending it out as a finished product....typos, inconsistencies and all.
They obviously don't want to be a professional organization or produce a viable product outside of the captive fan-base/kickstarter crowd.
Which is exactly what Mantic has done? The Rules Committees haven't been writing entire rule sets, they've been iterating on and balancing rule sets written by professional game designers - designers who sell their services as contractors to multiple clients including Mantic and Warlord, because it makes sense for everyone involved. Why would any sane company hire a full time rules writer to just sit around for months at a time doing nothing, because they only do a new rule set once a year at best?
You have a really misguided sense of what is, and is not, a professional organisation.
agnosto wrote: No. The computer games industry and PP recruits playtesters to find bugs in a completed but unpolished product. Mantic proposes recruiting people to write the rules for them because they can't seem to be arsed to write their own or hire an in-house rules writer(s) instead of shooting money at Jake whenever they run a kickstarter to hash something together in a relatively short period of time, rubber stamping it at "good enough", and sending it out as a finished product....typos, inconsistencies and all.
They obviously don't want to be a professional organization or produce a viable product outside of the captive fan-base/kickstarter crowd.
Which is exactly what Mantic has done? The Rules Committees haven't been writing entire rule sets, they've been iterating on and balancing rule sets written by professional game designers - designers who sell their services as contractors to multiple clients including Mantic and Warlord, because it makes sense for everyone involved. Why would any sane company hire a full time rules writer to just sit around for months at a time doing nothing, because they only do a new rule set once a year at best?
You have a really misguided sense of what is, and is not, a professional organisation.
We'll have to differ here because I'm unaware of people beta-testing video games actually entering new code. I don't know how PP handled things so I could be wrong there.
Maybe your experience and expectation of a professional product is different from my own. In my work experience and industry, it is generally frowned upon to produce documents with a large number of typos or that require a great deal of "polish" after a full print run and delivery to customers; these are generally things that could have been caught with a publishing industry standard proofing process. Models are one thing, printed products are another; when it comes to typos, there's no "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
All well and good and if your expectations differ from my own, we'll just have to differ.
scarletsquig wrote: I think the rules committee approach is probably best at this point to get the work done to a quality standard. A single person won't get everything right, it needs peer review, playtesting and iterative development.
Dungeon Saga committee is a very good idea, hopefully it can cover Star Saga as well. I won't be applying since I don't want my attention diluted over multiple systems, Deadzone is my focus.
I really enjoyed Dungeon Saga, and have a copy of Project Pandora which I'm looking forward to having a rules update for.
Very happy with the Kickstarter so far, only real issue was it coming hot on the heels of Dreadball 2.0, so funds are a little lacking.
I agree the RC is likely to be a big help,
rather I'd have preferred them to start with Star Saga (once mantic have finalised the rules) so what's printed as version 1 is the best it can be, rather than starting with a Dungeon Saga which is only just out, and releasing a rejigged version so soon (even with free rules download) is likely to leave quite a few owners feeling depressed that their shiney new game is out of date already
My only issue with the RC is that they're volunteers rather than paid for their work - especially since it is at this point key to having solidly playable rulesets come out of Mantic. Or be branded Mantic, anyway. It's great that Matt Gilbert got a well deserved position out of it, but the others deserve some reasonable remuneration as well.
agnosto wrote: No. The computer games industry and PP recruits playtesters to find bugs in a completed but unpolished product. Mantic proposes recruiting people to write the rules for them because they can't seem to be arsed to write their own or hire an in-house rules writer(s) instead of shooting money at Jake whenever they run a kickstarter to hash something together in a relatively short period of time, rubber stamping it at "good enough", and sending it out as a finished product....typos, inconsistencies and all.
They obviously don't want to be a professional organization or produce a viable product outside of the captive fan-base/kickstarter crowd.
Which is exactly what Mantic has done? The Rules Committees haven't been writing entire rule sets, they've been iterating on and balancing rule sets written by professional game designers - designers who sell their services as contractors to multiple clients including Mantic and Warlord, because it makes sense for everyone involved. Why would any sane company hire a full time rules writer to just sit around for months at a time doing nothing, because they only do a new rule set once a year at best?
You have a really misguided sense of what is, and is not, a professional organisation.
They wrote an entire supplement for Deadzone and seem to have written a large part of KoW2. Thats completely different from the computer industry and something people should get payed for.
Surely it is not too much for Mantic to "pay" members of the RC in the form if a basic Kick starter pledge level? It is a pity seeing the likes of ScarletSquig scratching around for funds given the work put into making Deadzone 2.0 a more balanced and fun game than the original.
(That said I have not seen any evidence of RC members wanting or expecting any renumeration, they genuinely do it due to their love of gaming. Kudos to them for that).
Full agreement with you on that. Mantic know who their key contributors are, and should at the very least be kicking back basic (or higher) KS level pledges to them. Volunteers are great and everything, but it's really getting to the point of feeling like abuse when they're essentially writing numerous complete full-priced, published supplements for free.
Early bird coming on line in about 2 minutes. I dunno, just not enthused or especially flush with cash at the moment. Looking at miniature market I can get 80-90% of the same volume of stuff for the dollar value I spent back at Dungeon Saga KS time. Losing 10-20% savings VS having the money tied up for a year..and having to watch updates. Hell, I've gotten almost as many updates through their other kickstarters emailing me as I have this one so far. I do think it will be worth a look at retail unless it just bomb/tanks, but I don't have the enthusiasm or financial fortitude to hang out for the whole ride.
Azazelx wrote: Volunteers are great and everything, but it's really getting to the point of feeling like abuse when they're essentially writing numerous complete full-priced, published supplements for free.
If only things were that good.
That aside, Agnosto's take on things is pretty accurate.
RC members do get paid in store credit, quite generously. It's really not an issue and it's done on a per-project basis so it's very formalized. Same applies to pathfinders.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm happy with it and am really pleased with both the credit given, and the amount of freedom rules committees have been given by Mantic to really polish games. Writing the rules in the first place is only about a quarter of the work, balance, playtesting and polish are the things that take time.
Also, Matt might not be the only RC member who ends up being formally hired or contracted by Mantic, they were recruiting a few months ago. I didn't apply, but know someone who did.
I'll still get the base pledge for this, will just have to wait for the pledge manager for expansions and things. Or skip them, but I did that with Dungeon Saga and ended up buying them at retail because the base game was so much fun.
PsychoticStorm wrote: And the crawl continues to slow down almost 5k less each day and mantic seems to be surprisingly silent.
Seems odd to me, wonder why?
I haven't looked at the comments section at all. I know in past KS projects, when it got so slow the project seemed in danger of not hitting the right 'value' and the comments turned negative, eventually Mantic rejigged something to make the value increase.
I think the laundry list of upcoming stretch goals was an attempt to counter this crawl, and it doesn't seem to be working.
I backed Dungeon Saga so heavily because of the promises of Warhammer Quest-like customization tool in the Adventurer's Companion, and I've voiced my disappointment here plenty. I'm trying to keep the pressure on Mantic in the comments to get us actual rules, even first-draft, on this sort of content. I see changes in the alpha rules document that make me think the in-house team 'gets' modern dungeon crawlers better than Jake Thornton did, so I really do want this to turn out right. Not just because Star Saga sounds like it can be a great customizable Borderlands-esque dungeon crawler, but because if they get it right they can work on applying the new rules backwards to Dungeon Saga.
But right now, the KS campaign is boring. People are still very hesitant because of the Adventurer's Companion debacle, and I think it's hurting them. I don't think they had enough material prepared to counter people's doubts, and that's keeping them from fixing the problem.
I hope Stew or whoever it is writing this game in-house really is busting his ass to get some Character and Mission Creator content written and tested to a show-able state by the end of this campaign, because if not...
There you go guys. The update that says 'We're barely containing Ronnie before he unleashes the Legendary Mantic Value.". Now I just need to paint the rest of the LMV that's sitting on boxes in my basement.
I'm finding it tepid myself, and I really wanted Mantic to make a game like this. I think the primary reason for this is that there's really not much new on offer in terms of miniatures. I'll have plenty of GCPS troopers in a better material when my Warpath KS shipment arrives, so I don't need them in PVC. Ditto for the Plague specimen types. It leaves me wondering if Mantic are trying to economize by hiring someone to repose the digital 3-D models that they've already funded through previous KS campaigns, rather than paying a digital sculptor to build all (rather than just some) of the Star Saga models from scratch.
Yeah GCPS vs Plague isn't very exciting both factions are getting over used now. I'll probably have most of the miniatures required painted before I even get the game.
They are definitely saving money by having the sculptor repose existing digital sculpts I know from other KS he's worked on that he just charges for the time it takes him to repose an existing sculpt (which doesn't take very long) so it's much cheaper than having him do a sculpt from scratch.
As I said in the comments I share your view on reusing existing sculpts and for the expansions reusing existing races which means more reposed existing sculpts. They need to branch out and do something different it would be a great way of getting new Nameless or Zzor or Sphyr miniatures without having to commit to DZ or WP levels of support for the range
Think it's fair to say I'm Mantic'd out. None of their new stuff is doing anything for me. Just waiting on my plastic Plague mutants from the Warpath KS (mainly cause their restic Stage 3s were horrendous to prep and paint IMO)
I may one day return to Mantic, but at the moment it's "meh".
DaveC wrote: Yeah GCPS vs Plague isn't very exciting both factions are getting over used now. I'll probably have most of the miniatures required painted before I even get the game.
They are definitely saving money by having the sculptor repose existing digital sculpts I know from other KS he's worked on that he just charges for the time it takes him to repose an existing sculpt (which doesn't take very long) so it's much cheaper than having him do a sculpt from scratch.
As I said in the comments I share your view on reusing existing sculpts and for the expansions reusing existing races which means more reposed existing sculpts. They need to branch out and do something different it would be a great way of getting new Nameless or Zzor or Sphyr miniatures without having to commit to DZ or WP levels of support for the range
I am in agreement with you. Mantic have a real problem with producing iconic, recognizable Mantic minis. The Sphyr and the chovar would fit that, as well as the enforcers and even the forefathers to a certain extent. But generic space soldiers fighting generic space zombies? Again? Let me just mail you my credit card! You'll know it's mine because the envelope will be made out of sarcasm.
I think I might make a thread in the Mantic section (speaking of zombies) about this, but Mantic are really struggling to release any miniatures that capture the customer's imagination, and by imagination I mean wallet. Either they need to kick it up a notch with the aliens and the high tech weirdness, or they need their sculptor to eat a copy of How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way and start pumping out some MERCS-style poses that liven up the ol' generic sculpts. Say what you want about GW, but they sure know how to sell you the same old Space Marines with a fancy new hat.
The MDF pieces look nice, but this feels like wasted potential given the fact that Mantic already have a strong hard plastic sci-fi building line that they could have built upon. Some large room-sized plastic floor tiles, lined with holes for plugging walls in, would have made for amazing scenery.
It does look the MDF is made to accept walls, but
1. It's MDF.
2. I'm not investing in another sci-fi building system that isn't compatible with Mantic's hard plastic line.
Vermonter wrote: The MDF pieces look nice, but this feels like wasted potential given the fact that Mantic already have a strong hard plastic sci-fi building line that they could have built upon. Some large room-sized plastic floor tiles, lined with holes for plugging walls in, would have made for amazing scenery.
Yes using their plastic building parts would have made a larger play area. But I feel like they could have made something that would of sized with the board game and that could still be compatible with their current plastic terrain. They could have made a walled dungeon that could have worked for the board game and been visually immersive plus been compatible with their current terrain.
It does seem strange to go with MDF. The only reason to do that is cost, it is cheaper but there isn't a huge pull for me. I have hirst arts, mdf terrain, modified game boards already so the use of the MDF is limited. Something modular that connects and works with their current stuff is more versatile to me.
Isn't it like what they've done with Dreadball and Dreadball Xtreme before? Making alternative boards with MDF pieces for the connisseur. - Then, acrylic boards for the connisseur with more money than sense....
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Frankly, I think it's because Mantic just isn't going to win any competition against plastic Custodes, Siege of the Citadel, etc..
It's all of the above for me. I'm backing Siege of the Citadel, I'll buy four Prospero Boxes. But I'm also butthurt about the Adventurer's Companion debacle, Mantic's KS incompetence in general, and now their lack/refusal to work out how to bulk ship to a local hub and then have items come from there, which would reduce shipping dramatically and also make a big difference to local duties. Mantic aren't first-timers anymore, it's time to learn how to do things like that properly. I guess they don't have time to research and learn how to do these things since they're always doing another KS by the seat of their pants on the fly. Wasn't there something said about fewer KS to be coming from Mantic at one point?
You can clearly see the crosses and dashes that outline the squares.
I am not sure if the illustrator intended on showing walls or just floor on the graphics, the design is odd and could go either way, is the intention is to show walls on the side it needs a major graphical overhaul, if it is all floor the design choice is a poor one.
I printed out some tiles myself to playtest through with my lad. Here's a pic of the Mission 1 tiles all set up (the third mission after A and B).
I printed them so each room is a single piece. Makes placement of rooms when a door is opened a breeze.
Makes me wonder if I'll enjoy the smaller jigsaw tiles when the final release comes...
DaveC wrote: They are definitely saving money by having the sculptor repose existing digital sculpts I know from other KS he's worked on that he just charges for the time it takes him to repose an existing sculpt (which doesn't take very long) so it's much cheaper than having him do a sculpt from scratch.
Thanks for confirming that, DaveC, that's very interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, it makes perfect sense to repose existing 3-D models if you have that resource rather than pay top dollar for entirely new sculpts, and it does give players more pose variety. On the other hand, I look at this and then at Siege of the Citadel, and I see a campaign that is giving me a sizable percentage of more of the same vs. one where every single sculpted figure is new to my collection. I guess for me it just comes down to the fact that I'm already satisfied with my GCPS / Plague forces and don't want or need any more alternate poses for them.
As I said in the comments I share your view on reusing existing sculpts and for the expansions reusing existing races which means more reposed existing sculpts. They need to branch out and do something different it would be a great way of getting new Nameless or Zzor or Sphyr miniatures without having to commit to DZ or WP levels of support for the range
I saw that, and appreciate your speaking up about it. I don't think we'll be seeing any change to Mantic's intent to base all expansions on 3-D models they already have, though, as it's obviously a purely economic decision. This would have been a great way to flesh out the Nameless or ZZ'or or Sphyr etc., and personally I think they'd get more interest from Mantic KS regulars if the core conflict forces were less over-used.
I'll still be interested if the models they include with the Veer-myn and Asterian expansions are actually new varieties / unit types, rather than just reposed versions of the hard plastics we already have, but I'm not expecting that. Mantic newcomers who don't already have oodles of hard plastic troops already won't mind the model repeats at all, so this could be a good deal for them. For myself, I won't be investing if it's too much of the same old.
Seems to be the quietest Mantic KS I've ever seen.
Maybe 2 comments rolling in per half hour on the KS page.
Only about 3 people reporting Alpha testing on the Mantic forum.
I don't have any dungeon crawlers in my vast collection of toy soldiers, rulebooks and terrain so I was rather excited to see this one come out - especially as it was likely I could use my characters from Deadzone/Warpath with it (and vice versa).
However, I've played through all the alpha missions and been less than impressed with the fact that the players breeze through easily and the role of the Nexus player is rather dull.
My pledge is still in, but for how long I'm not sure. I'm hoping they alter some of the statlines and mechanics.
I also find it rather bizarre that on a d6, only a 1 is a miss, 2-3 is a minor hit, 4-5 a major hit and 6 a crit. I still feel a d8 with 1-3 as misses would be a tad better. The d8 would also give a link to Deadzone.
I have a feeling on my next test, I'll up the stats of the Nexus minions and see if my 10 year old lad can get through the missions and actually take damage and feel at risk.
I really like the clean look of those 3rd party tiles but they do also highlight one of the reasons I hate Mantics approach to such things.. it looks a complete mess when you start putting tiles next to each other to make a larger room. I'd rather loose that flexibility and have bigger, more distinct room tiles complete with borders which serve to make the boundaries of each room or corridor super clear. Plus it gives you somewhere to put the walls if you are inclined to do so.
I don't have any dungeon crawlers in my vast collection of toy soldiers, rulebooks and terrain so I was rather excited to see this one come out - especially as it was likely I could use my characters from Deadzone/Warpath with it (and vice versa).
However, I've played through all the alpha missions and been less than impressed with the fact that the players breeze through easily and the role of the Nexus player is rather dull.
I have a feeling on my next test, I'll up the stats of the Nexus minions and see if my 10 year old lad can get through the missions and actually take damage and feel at risk.
First, thanks for posting your self-printed tile set with the big rooms. If I were you, I'd just glue your home-printed tiles onto stiffer board and use them when the game comes, rather than the smaller more fiddly pieces that the game will come with. I still think they should have released some large, room-sized plastic floor tiles compatible with their Battle Zones line.
Second, you've summed up my position on rpg-lite dungeon crawler games exactly. I love the idea, and I'd especially love to see a good sci-fi one, but having a Nexus player is a deal-killer because:
1. As you said, it's dull as dishwater to play as an "enemy DM" fighting a team of players. The fact is, in heroic narrative games, the Nexus player is supposed to lose. If the heroes lose, 5 out of 6 players are left deflated and disappointed, and the campaign / storyline doesn't advance, so games with Nexus / Overlord / etc. players are usually designed with the intention that the evil DM player is there to fulfill the power fantasies of the other players, not to win themselves. Your job is to throw less powerful, characterless minions at the heroes and watch your forces get slaughtered by better stats and special abilities. You usually get a few special effect cards to play and you have superior numbers, but somehow neither really change the balance of power and you're always behind anyway. In addition, if you're the guy who bought the game and you want to play as a hero, you're usually out of luck. You'll get stuck being the Nexus player indefinitely, because the Nexus role is more complicated to play and you're the only person who bothered to read the entire rulebook. This is why I got rid of my edition of Descent, and why I won't buy one-vs.-many rpg lite boardgames anymore. Finally, in terms of social interaction during play, being the one guy that everyone else unites to take down is even less fun than it sounds. Because you're the overlord, the players think you have all the power, even though they're traipsing through your forces like daisies. You're also the rules master since you're the one who studied the rules, but other players often imagine a conflict of interest because you're playing against them, so they're more apt to question your "suspect" interpretation of the rules ad nauseum.
I expect that there are a few people out there who disagree and love to play as the Nexus Overlord. I also suspect that they're a small minority, and that most people looking to buy these games are imagining playing as one of the heroes.
The best fully co-oprpg-lite boardgame I've played is Zombicide: Black Plague, where everyone plays a hero, and villains are controlled by all players with cards and simple "A.I." game mechanics. Granted, Mantic says that Star Saga will have a solo and co-op mode, too. But their attempts to incorporate those modes in the past left them as sideshows to the core 1-vs.-many game. If Star Saga isn't being designed as a fully co-op game rather than 1-vs.-many, what are the chances that full-coop will get equal development and playtesting time? It's not something I'd care to wager $100 on on.
It depends how they do it. Imperial Assaults way means that they campaign still progresses if the rebel heroes lose, they accomplish this by basically doubling the number of story missions and having alternates for each one. I may be biased, being typically the imperial player but I'd say the "Imperials won" missions are actually WAY more interesting in the chore campaign than the "rebels win" missions.
In saying that, I'm not disagreeing entirely with what you're saying but, there's ways around it. I've only had a couple of games out dungeon saga and, personally, it was fun running around as a banshee as for IA, who doesn't want to play as Darth Vader? That was plenty characterful for me.
But yeah there is more than a kernel of truth in what you're saying but I figured it's worth giving another perspective too
Compel wrote: But yeah there is more than a kernel of truth in what you're saying but I figured it's worth giving another perspective too
You bring up good points, and I'm not familiar with Imperial Assault, so it's interesting to hear that they've managed it well.
For myself, though, any game that forces me to play as the Nexus / Overlord is a game I won't buy. But if someone else wants to pay for the game and play host, learn the rules, do setup & cleanup with all the cards, tiles, pegs, minis, and tokens, get stuck playing as the impotent Overlord, and then have to field "are you cheating? Is that really the rule?" challenges from under-challenged, overpowered hero players, then I'll be happy to come over and play as a hero.
That snark wasn't directed at you, Compel; Gimgamgoo's report that his son was never challenged by his Star Saga bad guy minions brought all my bad old Descent memories back. And you're right, there are ways around those problems if the game design is clever. Siege of the citadel makes the Overlord player a rotating role that everyone has to assume, and rewards strong Overlord performances with carry-over bonuses for the temporary Overlord player's next hero mission, so there's incentive to do well. I just really dislike 1-vs.-many games that stick one player (me) with the enemy DM role, and that probably does mean Star Saga is D.O.A. for me (as I'm not confident in the co-op rules being fully developed), so I'm done ranting about it.
You're not the only one to have issues with it Vermonter, though I don't have a hardline on saying no to games with a DM/Nexus/Overlord. I still will get some/own a lot.
One thing I'm liking the rise of is apps being the DM. FFG does a good app for their Descent series, and the new Mansions of Madness is designed from the ground up to use it.
Speaking of Imperial Assault, they're making one for that too...
MrDwhitey wrote: You're not the only one to have issues with it Vermonter, though I don't have a hardline on saying no to games with a DM/Nexus/Overlord. I still will get some/own a lot.
One thing I'm liking the rise of is apps being the DM. FFG does a good app for their Descent series, and the new Mansions of Madness is designed from the ground up to use it.
Speaking of Imperial Assault, they're making one for that too...
I have to admit that I'm very, very interested in how well that's working out for Mansions of Madness. I avoided the first iteration of that game for the reasons given above, but the app-run DM of the new version has me intrigued. It's just a shame that MoM's minis are so badly done, but I guess I could replace them.
...which is why I always tell people if they want an AI driven sci-fi game, check out Galaxy Defenders.
The system will wreck your heroes unless you really put some thought into how you deal with the aliens (who all operate quite differently), and even then between event cards and bad dice rolls they're still going to tear you up.
I don't get why Mantic hasn't picked up some of these newer AI driven games for themselves to give them a spin to see how it's done correctly.
I also don't get why Mantic hasn't taken the simplicity of a system like their Mars Attacks AI and modify that. It was simple and straightforward, and while not the most imaginative, it got the job done for the basic grunts.
I'm not really 'dissing' the game.
Firstly, it's Alpha, hopefully nothing is in stone yet and our comments and thoughts on the gameplay will make a positive difference.
After I discovered how easy it was to make the SciFi tiles, I've decided if the rules/cards/game/figures are good, I can design room layouts for all the missions if the tiles aren't exactly what I envision. I can also make new missions/tile sets with a bit of effort.
I'm DM for a D&D group - and have been each week - since around 1984 (eeek). I'm in the mindset of being the DM/Nexus Overlord so I don't mind that. However the best games are always those fraught with danger when the players feel they've "just" got through it. If I was to throw one quarter hit die goblins at the level 14 player characters, it would become boring. That's how the Alpha mission A, B and 1 felt to a 10 year old lad playing with me. It doesn't need to be "Lost Patrol" hard, but have a degree of threat about it making it feel worthwhile to play with danger vs rewards.
I was hoping Star Saga's missions (when they're finished) would give our group (and me creating adventures) a break from D&D a while to play something else - but a storyline with discoveries for the players to find out about as we go along is important. We did play quite a few Zombicide missions weekly for a while, but the lack of an ongoing storyline meant we eventually stopped playing.
I just don't understand why no game company has tried to recapture the RPG-lite awesomeness that was Warhammer Quest's Roleplay Book in their own dungeon crawler. I begrudgingly admit that that's what Mantic seemed to have intended with the Adventurer's Companion, but following Thornton's blog over the course of development it was clear he didn't get it and was fighting hard not to sully his Heroquest clone on rails and a timer with all that messy RPG stuff.
It's frustrating. All I want is a modern Warhammer Quest like game, but where you can challenge the heroes with fewer monsters at a time. (Needing 2d6 orcs or 3d6 goblins per encounter at higher levels started getting old.)
Psychopomp wrote: I just don't understand why no game company has tried to recapture the RPG-lite awesomeness that was Warhammer Quest's Roleplay Book in their own dungeon crawler. I begrudgingly admit that that's what Mantic seemed to have intended with the Adventurer's Companion, but following Thornton's blog over the course of development it was clear he didn't get it and was fighting hard not to sully his Heroquest clone on rails and a timer with all that messy RPG stuff.
It's frustrating. All I want is a modern Warhammer Quest like game, but where you can challenge the heroes with fewer monsters at a time. (Needing 2d6 orcs or 3d6 goblins per encounter at higher levels started getting old.)
Shadows of Brimstone does this (in my estimation) with great success.
I vaguely remember playing Warhammer Quest back in 1998 or so, it seemed vaguely interesting.
Interesting enough that I bought the computer game last year. I think I managed about 3 hours of it before I realised, "oh, it's yet another "Random for the Random God" and dropped it like a stone.
Compel wrote: I vaguely remember playing Warhammer Quest back in 1998 or so, it seemed vaguely interesting.
Interesting enough that I bought the computer game last year. I think I managed about 3 hours of it before I realised, "oh, it's yet another "Random for the Random God" and dropped it like a stone.
Warhammer Quest really shone when someone took on the role of game master (note: *not* adversarial player, but an actual neutral game master) and ran it as a RPG-lite dungeon crawler. I keep a group going through multiple parties in weekly sessions for about 3 years doing that. Sadly, a computer game can't replicate that yet, so the app version only simulates the random card-generated co-op mode.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I'm not really 'dissing' the game.
Firstly, it's Alpha, hopefully nothing is in stone yet and our comments and thoughts on the gameplay will make a positive difference.
I hope so. I'd like to see your critique that it was too easy for the good guys get taken to heart and worked on. Because this sums up my feelings exactly:
Gimgamgoo wrote: However the best games are always those fraught with danger when the players feel they've "just" got through it. If I was to throw one quarter hit die goblins at the level 14 player characters, it would become boring. That's how the Alpha mission A, B and 1 felt to a 10 year old lad playing with me. It doesn't need to be "Lost Patrol" hard, but have a degree of threat about it making it feel worthwhile to play with danger vs rewards.
Truthfully I'm starting to think that, like your homemade tiles, you have the real answer to this one already, too: house rule changes to the game to make it more challenging. And it would probably be worthwhile to just come up with my own A.I. system for full co-op play. Then the A.I. can be as simple or deep as I like.
Psychopomp wrote: I just don't understand why no game company has tried to recapture the RPG-lite awesomeness that was Warhammer Quest's Roleplay Book in their own dungeon crawler. I begrudgingly admit that that's what Mantic seemed to have intended with the Adventurer's Companion, but following Thornton's blog over the course of development it was clear he didn't get it and was fighting hard not to sully his Heroquest clone on rails and a timer with all that messy RPG stuff.
It's frustrating. All I want is a modern Warhammer Quest like game, but where you can challenge the heroes with fewer monsters at a time. (Needing 2d6 orcs or 3d6 goblins per encounter at higher levels started getting old.)
Shadows of Brimstone does this (in my estimation) with great success.
I'd forgotten I backed that one again. Here's to hoping they finish it up one day!
I would rather have a game system working correctly from start than house rule it to work.
When you are paying for a product and the rules are part of the product, you want it working, its not a side project for free from a game designer that wants to experiment with it.
Speaking of the above, how prone is Mantic to deliver the rule system unchanged despite having huge feedback against it?
On the campaign itself, it seems to have lost most of its steam and Mantic is surprisingly non existent in the comments.
The bloom is well and truly off the rose. For KS in general and Mantic in particular after so many projects, so many missteps and so many repeated "we'll do better" mea culpas that seem to have no effect. I strongly suspect Siege of the Citadel is eating a big chunk of their lunch as well right now, and with Eric Lang, Richard Borg and Jay Little on board for rules working over what is by all accounts a very good boardgame - as opposed to Mantic's in-house team (plus RC) rewriting Jake's messy Heroquest tribute..
I think the Rules Committee is going to make or break this game, as they're the ones willing to put in the necessary playtesting time to make sure the rules are sound and balanced.
But if I understand correctly, the RC for Star Saga hasn't been assembled yet. It would be reassuring to know that Mantic are assembling a good team for that ASAP, as I have a hunch that they will be doing the bulk of the A.I. rules development and testing, and the more time they have for that, the better.
But if the Mantic design team really is putting serious work into the A.I. mode right now, they should take credit for that by talking more specifically about how they're going to handle having the game be playable either with or without a Nexus player. (If an A.I. player is just as effective as a human player, then why have a human Nexus player at all? Why not go A.I. all the way like Gears of War or Zombicide? Or, if a human Nexus player can do things that card A.I. just can't match, is there any way to make up the difference, or is the A.I. version going to be a limited, dumbed-down version of the "real game"?) I'd really like to see some hard proof of equivalently valid co-op rules before this KS ends. I know Jake hates co-op games, but he's not spearheading this revision of his rules, so there's reason to hope that co-op might be pursued more seriously this time.
@Gimgamgoo - thanks for letting us know how your first test games went. If you continue play testing, I'd love to hear more as things evolve. It looks like we're both after a similar level of challenge from the game.
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PsychoticStorm wrote: I would rather have a game system working correctly from start than house rule it to work.
You're right about that, of course; that's how newly released games should work. In practice, getting game systems right in the first release is always highly difficult, and V2s are necessary more often than not. (But home-runs out of the gate aren't impossible, either - there have been some remarkable successes). Also, I'm starting to wonder if my expectations and hopes for rpg-lite boardgames are just unrealistically high. There are such natural tensions between rpgs and boardgames that there may not be any fully satisfying middle ground between them.
Zombicide: Black Plague has come closest for me so far, but I have to agree with Gimgamgoo: it's best for one-off games, as the story continuity is incidental at best, and character development from game-to-game is zero. (Your character effectively goes through the entire Novice-to-Master lifecycle in every adventure and resets at the beginning of the next one.) I do need to try the app-driven games sometime. And thanks for the tip on Galaxy Defenders - I've heard it has great A.I. Like Mansions of Madness and Shadows of Brimstone, though, it has sub-par miniatures, and so far I've been too much of a snob to get over that. I should probably just take the plunge and replace the minis with better ones from my own collection some day.
That's the thing about Mantic: they can make boardgames with good miniatures, especially after their success with PVC in Deadzone 2. That's one reason I keep hoping that they'll release more solid, better tested rule sets. Thus far the Mantic game that's played best for me is Mars Attacks, a genuinely good game that's just saddled with a property I'm not crazy about. I'm hoping Deadzone 2 will play as well (just with more sophistication) now that it's V2, as I'm much more interested in Mantic's own sci-fi universe than Topps properties.
*sigh* Mantic's suffering from lack of goodwill due to the Adventurers Companion debacle, and I don't think they expected it or had a good plan for it. They're kind of flailing in the Kickstarter comments as the campaign stalls out on day three of trying to get the Survivor unlocked. Some vague promises of Ronnie showing up later this week to add some value to the base pledge, and I think they're pinning a lot of hope on the Reddit AMA scheduled for later today.
I hope all the silence the last few days has been from them preparing more rules for preview and getting ready to wow us with the AMA. Because they're not impressing on any other fronts, currently.
Mantic is too established a company, with too inconsistent of a track record, to get people excited about alpha rules and renders. Especially since they're moving into a crowded market.
Alpharius wrote: Star Saga is not the Kickstarter Mantic needs, but it is the one they deserve! ...
I couldn't agree more.
If Mantic refuses to listen to the disgruntled backers of, during and after, their previous Kickstarter campaigns, maybe lackluster funding for their new projects will make them listen to new backers (or lack thereof).
The game / hobby community isn't a cash cow and the good will of backers is finite. Promises mean nothing if you don't deliver substance to back them up. Mantic should have learned that a long time ago.
But not much. They needed a redesign, not some very minor shading and a blood splat or two.
I agree. They still look more like walls than a floor surface.
I assume this is as far as they will alter them if they've already had Dark Ops make and paint mdf versions to show off.
So far I prefer the tiles I knocked up to alpha test with using a cheap Rpgnow found tile creator.
Eh, I'm quite happy for a spacestation floor to not be made from the sci-fi dungeoncrawler staples of:
1) Grating/Grilles (1-inch squares)
2) Riveted dark metal panels (1-inch squares)
2) Sheets of that high-grip utility sheet metal stuff.
It's at least distinctive, fits the shiny high-tech Warpath universe, and doesn't actually make me recoil like the first version did!
I'm surprised that the balance of UK/US backers isn't more skewed between this and Dungeon Saga, given the current £:$ exchange. Dungeon Saga was when the pound was at its strongest post-recession point! Today, well...
Dungeon Saga was:
37.5% US
22.8% UK $100=£60.23
Currently Star Saga is:
35.6% US
22.6% UK $100=£78.58
The Reddit AMA didn't exactly set my mind to ease on the Character and Mission Creator expansions. Sounds like they're still at the vague outline stage of development. Cripes, after the Adventurers Companion, you'd think they'd have done some more pre-campaign writing on this stuff, but nope...Mantic.
I have no idea if the advanced ruleset will be like Warhammer Quest, Advanced Heroquest, or 'here's some monster stats, learn how to put this stuff together on your own, champ.'
pongo50 wrote: Define burned - I have been in on all the Deadzone/Warpath KS and I have not been disapointed, Excellent value for price!
I guess the big one was that Mantic promised to ship Royal Mail. They shipped B2C/DHL anyway and I spent more on shipping and duties than my pledge was worth.
They also simply ignored my missing item form submissions.
I'll get better service from pretty much any retailer, and be able to buy their product discounted more than what they're offering in this KS with free shipping and no duties on top of that.
The Nameless look like crab people aliens. They should have a cool crab people aliens name instead. Obviously Mon Calamari is already taken but Mantic can do better than Nameless.
Prestor Jon wrote: The Nameless look like crab people aliens. They should have a cool crab people aliens name instead. Obviously Mon Calamari is already taken but Mantic can do better than Nameless.
There was some background piece if I recall correctly where it was stated they do have a name but their language is impossible to understand so they ended up being called "The Nameless" by the corporations in the same way that the Veer-Myn aren't actually Veer-Myn it's just a Corporation name for them
Granted there are better names than the nameless and the background might get rewritten
Prestor Jon wrote: The Nameless look like crab people aliens. They should have a cool crab people aliens name instead. Obviously Mon Calamari is already taken but Mantic can do better than Nameless.
DaveC wrote: Granted there are better names than the nameless and the background might get rewritten
How about "The Blameless?" They could go around invading other planets, and then when people complain about it, say things like "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones," "Who are you to accuse me?," and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," and then point out that the people they're invading have done equally bad things to other alien races in the past.
I'm not a big fan of the nameless concepts so it doesn't add any value to me. I also doubt their ability to turn those concept sketches into well cast figures using the board game plastic Mantic says they will use this time around.
I suspect some lucky Mantic fan will be able to grab my EB pledge in the last few hours.
What kind of board game plastic are they saying they'll use? I thought this was going to be the same PVC mix they used with Deadzone 2, which was excellent. Not so?
Vermonter wrote: What kind of board game plastic are they saying they'll use? I thought this was going to be the same PVC mix they used with Deadzone 2, which was excellent. Not so?
Not sure what they used for that. They said this KS will use what they are using for their Walking Dead stuff. I worry that all the tentacles and multiple legs and other nameless parts don't translate well into single piece figures in that material. I could be 100% wrong, and for the sake of those who like these concept sketches hope I am. Maybe they've already addressed it in the comments (which I have yet to look at) so my fears are unfounded. I do know the Nameless dread ball team ended up in metal.
Vermonter wrote: What kind of board game plastic are they saying they'll use? I thought this was going to be the same PVC mix they used with Deadzone 2, which was excellent. Not so?
Not sure what they used for that. They said this KS will use what they are using for their Walking Dead stuff. I worry that all the tentacles and multiple legs and other nameless parts don't translate well into single piece figures in that material. I could be 100% wrong, and for the sake of those who like these concept sketches hope I am. Maybe they've already addressed it in the comments (which I have yet to look at) so my fears are unfounded. I do know the Nameless dread ball team ended up in metal.
The main Nameless Dreadball team was produced in PVC - the "booster" models were produced in metal, presumably due to Mantic not wanting to commit funds to a steel mould for a potentially low-selling product, rather than a limitation of the material. Of course, both plastic and metal models came in lots of little bits there anyway - I too am concerned about the limits of single piece. The Mars Attacks & Dungeon Saga stuff was (at least partially) multi-piece, just pre-assembled, like a lot of the CMON models.
The Survivor is unlocked next is 2 extra Lab Technicians @$220k
SS rules for existing DZ Mercs - $10 for the cards only or 2 different sets including metal miniatures. DZ rules for SS Mercs will be a separate non KS release next year.
Fear In the Darkness Expansion
From today, the core pledge level will now include a complete expansion to use all your exclusive figures, with a full Mission Book and Card Deck exclusive to the Kickstarter! If that wasn't enough, this expansion will allow Blaine and his Mercenaries to face a new enemy - the Nameless. Along with the book and cards, we are adding a new Boss model 'The Fear', and 12 betentacled minions into the CORE PLEDGE at no extra cost!
The rulebook, boss and cards are KS exclusive the rest of the miniatures are not and may be released later as a DZ faction.
That Squat Engineer is the first thing in this KS that piques my interest. Not enough to pay KS prices + shipping, though.
CptJake wrote: I'm not a big fan of the nameless concepts so it doesn't add any value to me. I also doubt their ability to turn those concept sketches into well cast figures using the board game plastic Mantic says they will use this time around.
I suspect some lucky Mantic fan will be able to grab my EB pledge in the last few hours.
Ahem.
Interesting to see sets of 6 metal figures for $25. Mantic charged a hell of a lot more for them individually in previous KS, didn't they?
The dollar is a lot stronger against the pound than it was then, but yes! Was $45 for a very similar bundle of 6 for Deadzone 1 (believe it has 4 in common, and the 2 that weren't in that bundle were $8 add-ons). Good deal!
Especially if you view the cards as contributing $5 of the value - then it's $3.33 a model, and the orc is in a massive power suit!
shocker, as its Mantic 
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who also did the 
