OK. Here's something that realy annoys me. Deep Strike and assault.

OK we all know the a unit that arives from Deep Strike Reserve can't assault in the same turn it arives. We don't know why, "It's not fair"or some such nonsence. But most folks I discuss these concerns with sit there looking dumb'struck and say stuff like "those are the fules aren't they".

Yes they are. Well done. You can read a rule book. Go get a gold star from teacher.

The point isn't that those are the rules as written. The point is that people don't question or amend those rules when they clearly go against everything that 40K fluff tells us about drop assault units.

A Space Wolf would not wait 40 odd seconds before charginging the enemy, Commander Dante's honour guard would assault the second their feet touched the ground and there is not a blizzard in hell's chance that a squad of Khorne Berzerkers is going to leep from their Dreadclaw and stop to check squad coherency. Get real.

Any way let us accept for now that there is a valid reason that an infantry unit ariving by deep strike can't assault that turn. there is still a massive game braking rules fluff up for which no agument can't be made. Deep striking vehicles with the assault vehicles special rule, whose occupants can't assault the turn they arrive from reserves .

Now the sole reason vehicles like the Caestus and Kharydis exist in the 40K universe is to deliver troops in the thickest fight in a battle zone, allowing them to engage their foes in close assaults and fire fights before their opponents have a chance to react.

That is how assault vehicles work in all the novels from black library and in the fluff in our Codex:s.

Now this is how they work in game.

Kharybdis lands within assault range of enemy command squad. The assault squad it's carrying disembarks. They can shoot but count as having moved. Fair enough they have just slammed into a planet at high speed in agiant spikey sardine tin, aim's gonna be a little off. Now our blood thirsty killers can do one of the folllowing. As I explained above they can stand their ground and fire away. Another option is to move and then fire (usual restrictions aply). Or they could forgo shooting altogether and fun in the shooting phase instead.

Now if they choose to run it should be towards the nearest scrap of cover. Beacause in the assault phase, having disembarked from an assault vehicle, our assault squad can, "DO NOTHING".

That's N O T H I N G "Nothing".

Oponent's turn.

Now the command unit who where taken completely by surprise by our legion assault squad's sudden and violent arrival get to use psychic powers, move into strategic positions, shoot ranged weapons and them insult of insults assault the assault squad who couldn't assault from their assault vehicle. Utterly ridiculous.

I mean does this make sence to anyone ?

Well, If you want a fluffy reason, there just isn't that much time in a round. First the pod has to land, then the doors open, the marines unbuckle their safety belts / dreadnought gets out of his booster seat. After which they leave the vehicle shooting madly in each direction.
If a modern machine gun fires 900 rounds per second and a bolter fires twice per round then they have 1.3 tenths of a second to do all of that. Super human they may be, but gods they are not.

I look at it this way...

Terminators teleporting in from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The air becomes charged. Your hair stands on end. You feel a flash of light and a distinct pressure as displaced air assaults you. As the dust settles, you look up to see Terminators standing where none stood before. They start to move towards you. There's your first turn. Teleportation isn't quite instantaneous. It requires standing still and is somewhat disorienting.

Assault Marines "jumping in" from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: You feel a deep rumble in your gut as the Stormbirds fly overhead. One comes in particularly low overhead and you see a hatch begin to open. Red armored Marines leap from the hatch and ignite their Jump Packs. The whine of their jets strikes terror into your heart. You raise your weapons and fire as they come closer. There's your first turn. Jump Pack deep striking isn't instantaneous. It requires jumping out of a flying ship of some sort and takes time to hit the ground.

Tactical Marines coming out of a Drop Pod form the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The Drop Pod screams down and hits the ground like a meteor, throwing up a cloud of debris. You scramble away quickly and take cover, raising your autogun as gases begin to his from hidden seams in the walls of the pod. With a sharp clanking sound, the pod seems to crack and the walls slam down, revealing the interior. You see Marines disengaging harnesses, grabbing bolters and climbing out of the pod. As the climb out, they bring their bolters to bear and you slink down, preying to the Primordial Annihilator for deliverance. There's your first turn. Riding a Drop Pod in from orbit isn't instantaneous. It takes a bit of time for the doors to open and Marines to climb out.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea. Most of the Deep Strike methods represent some form of teleportation or travel that is either not instantaneous OR is instantaneous, but requires a bit of build up or disorientation to achieve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My main point is that MOST forms of Deep Striking aren't actually TOTAL surprises. You generally have some sort of indication that something is coming OR your opponent is generally a little disoriented immediately after arriving.

No it doesn't make a lot of sense. I think you should be able to assault from deepstrike. If you think that is going to be a problem for your units, thas why overwatch exists, and defensive grenades, and correct cover usage

The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

And it doesn't work at all vs Tau. So there's that.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

True, but i used the DA as an example because all their bikes get homers, you could get the same results with drop pods with TP homers.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

True, but i used the DA as an example because all their bikes get homers, you could get the same results with drop pods with TP homers.

Spending more points in the process. It's just so costly. It's the land raider effect. You end up paying so many points for a single assault. Any MSU list is laughing at you.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is, there is a reason most armies cant do it. If i could, my RW DW army would be a whole lot stronger then it is now.

Bikes boot up, 3+ in some cases 2+ re rollable jink, turn 2, every single bike and speeder has Teleport homer, i then deep strike in 20 terminators that all get twinlinked weapons, then can assault. Have you seen what deathwing knights can do in melee? Its freaking nasty, S8 AP2 at I4 can take out most equivalent units before they can do anything. Then getting assaulted by all the power fists and 2+ armor is going to make anyones army weep.

I dont think every unit should get a charge from deep strike, I would however fully support charging out of deep strike IF the unit is completely melee focused such as deathwing knight, or terminators fully kitted for assault. (Play mostly DA so dont know the other deep striking melee units.)

It's not that great. Especially when forced to do with terminators and sanguinary guard. Most lists can laugh at that between DS scatter and overwatch and failed charges.

I don't think most people realize how weak assault from DS is with expensive units.

True, but i used the DA as an example because all their bikes get homers, you could get the same results with drop pods with TP homers.

Spending more points in the process. It's just so costly. It's the land raider effect. You end up paying so many points for a single assault.

True true, at the same time to, if you are a lucky roller, you could not scatter on your deep strikes and get units right up infront of your opponent with out needing all the fancy toys to get him there. Oh yeah of course, any MSU army, is going to overpower elite unit armies just by sheer numbers alone.

a 10 point teleport homer is worth every penny if it gets 5 assault termies into CC turn 2.

I think also the thing is if you assault from deep strike, you kill maybe 1 to 2 units, then you're just sitting out in the open to get shot at

Wow. Only one or two units before the opponent even gets a chance of shooting at you [effectively]. How terribly balanced.

Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

I'd be okay with this, but what is warp quake?

Personally, I feel like anything so disorientating that you cannot charge on the turn you arrive should ALSO mean that you're too disorientated to shoot properly when arriving either. I'd love to see all units only be able to make Snap Shots when arriving from Reserves.

This would make some units even worse than they already are. Stuff that is way too squishy to be a reliable distraction in the enemy backline, shooting also does not tie up units so its much lesser threat when a shooty unit pops in your line.

OK. So these are very good points, and for all the unit's that can deep through teleportation normal drop pods that is a given.

I allready said we were leaving those alone. The thing were it does not work is with deep striking assault vehicles, that can deep strike through there own propulsion.

A Kharybdis is solid example of this. Flurry data shows a kharybdid has enhance retro jets to pevent disorientation of it's pay load. Frag launchers and melter aray whitch keep nearby enemies pinned and on the back foot, Rapid access weapon stowedge ang quick release drop restraints. A unit in a kharybdis is already in the access hatches before the assault ramps drop.

the problem isn't actually just a fluff related isue though. It's a rules cock up.

Forge World Gave a bunch of their vehicle with deep strike the assault vehicle special rule without consulting GW and their rules interpretations clashed.

GW didn't want anything to assault from deep strike. FW already had stuff that did both refused to alter their product details. And we now have useless assault vehicles.

Now before I continue I want to make it clear I do knpw how to play the game and in the game it states that a unit disembarking from an assault vehicle may charge that, but Not If The Vehicle Arived From Resurves That Turn and for the official rules that's it.

However we have a problem. If a vehicle like a land raider is teleported into battle by psychic means or a has gaind the out flank abbillity as an aditional abbillity. Then one rule may cancel out the other.

The karybdis however always has both deep strike and assault vehicle, and so both rules should technically be in effect.

Now a lot of battle games and trading card have a clever of making these things work.

Where a special rule conflicts with a core game rule the special rule is given priority.

A good example in 40K would be "feel no pain". The rules state that no one unit may make more than one savving throw of eny kiny against any one source of damage, however feel no gives them second saving throw

Special rule takes priority over core rool.

In the case of deep strike and assault vehicle we are dealing with two special rules. Now in most game when two special rules conflict we use what is known in gaming circles as the law or rule of commonality.

Both rules have to have an effect on the card or unit in question so we look at the rules for two different forms of commonality.

The first is how common is the special rule well in the case of deep strike and assault vehicle deep strike is most common.

Deep strike is a special rule that effects dozens of units and can be bestowed upon a unit by it's transport, or even received through psychic powers, being in a certain formation or from a war lord trait,

Assault vehicle by contrast is very rare. Only affecting a handfull of transport vehicles.

So the most common rule deep strike would have it's effects aplied first then the less common rule assault vehicle would be aplied second any effects of assault vehicle that conflict with deep strike's effects are applied over that effect remove it from the list of effects the vehicle has.

Now sometimes the more commonfule has only one or two effects. In the case the second law applies. If when applying the less common you would leave the most common rule with no active effects, the you apply as many effects as possible without making the first rule redundant.

phwooo. looks more complicated than it is. realy.

Any way apply this system to units like the karybdis you get a kind of combie rule, I'll call it Deep Strike Assault.

Ido use more detailed rules in my house rule book. to give the opponent a better chance of deffending aginst this deep strike assault scenario. But not tonight I think I have done more than enough for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn I nearly forgot Kriswall. your description of deep strike through the eyes of a cultist is beautifully poetic, but when you say "and that's your first turn" you do know reserves can't arrive on your first turn right?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Wow. Only one or two units before the opponent even gets a chance of shooting at you [effectively]. How terribly balanced.

Actually yeah. That's not useful when scatterbikes murder unit after unit after unit from 36" away.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

I disagree. Assault would still be the weakest phase of the game because of no sweeping advance. You kill one unit, and then get shot off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
This would make some units even worse than they already are. Stuff that is way too squishy to be a reliable distraction in the enemy backline, shooting also does not tie up units so its much lesser threat when a shooty unit pops in your line.

Shooting ties them up by removing them from the table. So it's better than tying them up.

What are you deep striking that's removing a unit with a single shooting phase?

 Bobthehero wrote:
What are you deep striking that's removing a unit with a single shooting phase?

Nothing, because Tau and Eldar generally don't deep strike. If Eldar do, it's D-scythes with the web way which removes ANYTHING in a single phase. Shooting lists don't have to deep strike. That's the whole problem.

Well obviously if you take the most op stuff you'll have skewered results...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well obviously if you take the most op stuff you'll have skewered results...

The counterpoint is why bother with anything else? I mean, yeah, BA can't deep strike a shooting unit and get anywhere, but it's a have-not codex. If I were an Eldar player, the only thing I'd bother deep striking would be D-scythes. Everything else delivers death from 36".

CSM can now drop assault from deep strike raptors all over them, and it just makes the matchup less in the Eldar's favor. It doesn't actually make the CSM the favorite in that match.

Obviously sweeping advance was way too powerful, but now the game is get shot to death before you assault or get shot to death after you win assault.

I wont bother with jetbikes and battlesuits because I don't play any faction that has access to that, nor do I want to.

The devil is always in the details. The scatterlaser is a 20 pt gun, not a 10 pt gun, and that one mistake gets propagated through an entire codex, making that codex almost invincible against half the the competition.

Isn't a game turn supposedly 6 seconds in real time? That's going by DnD logic.

Anyways, not being able to assault from deep strike is for the sake of game balance, not realism. Besides, drop pods are already OP as they are at 35 points per model. With inertial guidance systems, being able to automatically deep strike half turn one, and armor 12 all around, a regular drop pod should be 50 at least.

Why are you assaulting with a unit that can take damage? If you want to play an assault army, there are plenty of deathstars out there that can take 10k points of tau shooting and lose 1 guy. 'Oh, but I don't want to play a deathstar I just want to bounce a unit of Khorne berzerkers from combat to combat with guaranteed charge distance and no overwatch!' Yeah well, I want Pure Sisters to win the LVO, but that's not gonna happen.

ERJAK wrote:
Why are you assaulting with a unit that can take damage? If you want to play an assault army, there are plenty of deathstars out there that can take 10k points of tau shooting and lose 1 guy. 'Oh, but I don't want to play a deathstar I just want to bounce a unit of Khorne berzerkers from combat to combat with guaranteed charge distance and no overwatch!' Yeah well, I want Pure Sisters to win the LVO, but that's not gonna happen.

Is your reasoning that if someone wants to play a viable assault unit they should just play a different army that has a deathstar?

I bet in Age of Sig... I mean, Age of 40K, you will be able to deepstrike and charge, and then you'll have to pick which combat to fight, just like that other game.

Omg. Drop pods are overrated if anything not undercosted. With drop prods, if your alpha strike fails, there is no tomorrow because all your guys are on foot and therefore dead. They are also autolose vs tau atm.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Assaulting from Deep Strike isn't allowed because getting buttf***ed by a tool you had no chance to avoid is incredibly unfun for the guy on the receiving end. If you want to do it you've got to let people interact with Deep Strike beyond sitting back and watching it eat their face. Bring back Warp Quake, hand out some jamming tech, and take away Drop Pods' perfect-safety rule if you want to be able to charge out of Deep Strike.

I'd be okay with this, but what is warp quake?

Warp Quake was GK Strike Squads' shtick under the 5e book, it was a psychic power that made anything that ended a Deep Strike within 12" of them after scattering mishapped automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Omg. Drop pods are overrated if anything not undercosted. With drop prods, if your alpha strike fails, there is no tomorrow because all your guys are on foot and therefore dead. They are also autolose vs tau atm.

You know that every other army in the game would kill to get to bring in half their Reserves automatically on turn one in risk-free AV12 portable cover boxes, right?


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 NInjatactiks wrote:
...Isn't a game turn supposedly 6 seconds in real time?...

On that road lies madness.

The only way to make any of 40k make any sense at all as a simulation is to admit that time is an abstraction and distances are on a log scale. If a turn was defined as six seconds and distances were linearly about 6-7 feet to the inch you'd need a table 25 feet long before a Land Speeder couldn't cross the whole thing in a turn at full throttle.

If you could assault straight from deepstrike alot of shooting based armies would be screwed full stop.

Pod assault would become the new tournament standard list with ease.
While overwatch helps, you can only overwatch once per unit and a tank doesn't even get that, barring a few specific ones which can.

Daemons would actually become useful from the drop as you don't have to weather a turn of shooting, followed by overwatch when you do get to assault, providing the units not dead already.



While its not like the fluff, its there for balance.
If the game strictly followed fluff as its rules it would be an even bigger mess than it is currently.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Why are you assaulting with a unit that can take damage? If you want to play an assault army, there are plenty of deathstars out there that can take 10k points of tau shooting and lose 1 guy. 'Oh, but I don't want to play a deathstar I just want to bounce a unit of Khorne berzerkers from combat to combat with guaranteed charge distance and no overwatch!' Yeah well, I want Pure Sisters to win the LVO, but that's not gonna happen.

Is your reasoning that if someone wants to play a viable assault unit they should just play a different army that has a deathstar?

My reasoning is that complaining about assault as a whole and pissing and moaning over your codex being bad seem to get mixed up a lot. There are plenty of CQC strategies that work very well, heck a guy just won warzone atlanta with 0 shooting against frickin tau'nars. The problem is that people want their favorite close combat unit to be the good one and when they aren't they complain about assault as a whole.

You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. The people that want those things to be better can look out and see scatbikes and riptides and go 'oh, maybe making shooting better wouldn't be the best option, maybe I'd rather my forgefiend be bs4.'

Meanwhile assault players deliberatly ignore the fact that deathstars exist and call for changes that would make them even stronger.

Look all I'm saying is that before you suggest a buff to assault, maybe think about what an invisible cabal star with ironhand and endurance could do with that change.

The abuse a deepstriking deathstar could put out would be plain stupid if they could charge straight in.


While suggesting something is fine and all, there is always a ripple effect that takes place, opening up more grey areas and loopholes to be abused.

So making assault from DS is one thing for a basic unit, but you then need to fast forward ahead and think about what else will be making use of it.

You know guys don't *have* to get out of a Kharybdis, right? Same for a Dreadclaw.

We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

"You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. "

I complain about Imperial shooting frequently.

Martel732 wrote:
"You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. "

I complain about Imperial shooting frequently.

Yeah. You complain that Imperial shooting is bad (not sure why, SM and AdMech are around poking fun at that thesis). Not that the Shooting phase is bad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You don't see people complaining about how weak the shooting phase because Whirlwinds, or Celestians, or predators or, forgefiends are bad. "

I complain about Imperial shooting frequently.

Yeah. You complain that Imperial shooting is bad (not sure why, SM and AdMech are around poking fun at that thesis). Not that the Shooting phase is bad.

Because SM are codex: grav cannon for shooting efficacy. All their other weapons are basically trash. Admech, I don't have that much experience with. All your standard imperial weapons are awful or on awful platforms compared to their xeno counterparts. The marines, in theory, at least have some choppy to make up for this, but IG just take it up the ass.

 Kriswall wrote:
I look at it this way...

Terminators teleporting in from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The air becomes charged. Your hair stands on end. You feel a flash of light and a distinct pressure as displaced air assaults you. As the dust settles, you look up to see Terminators standing where none stood before.

And they need your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.

Right this is getting Way Way off point this is not a debate club for disgruntled assault phazers. This is a very specific question. which I shall now repose.

A unit arrives from reserves in a transport vehicle which has both the Deep Strike special rule and the Assault Vehicle special rule. Should they be allowed to charge an enemy unit if they disembark that turn, if not why not?

Dont forget we're pay a lot more points for a Dreadclaw tha a vanilla drop pod, and huge amount more for they're not worth the points without being able to use both those special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KharnsRightHand makes an exeleent point the Kharybdis and Dreadclaw are drop assault boats rather than pods and can move around after arival and can be re-embarked. But in the modern shooty game.

But the only way they're worth their points is if they get an assault out a quick assault. it is sole purpose they were designed for.

Then I'll re post my answer.

Assaulting straight out of deepstrike is a big deal.
It can cripple most armies with ease.
More so against tanks being assaulted as they don't get overwatch against it.

Essentially any army with access to assault based pods (marines) can now drop in a CC unit capable of killing the intended target with ease, with no fear of losing the unit anymore.

Yes overwatch exists, but BS1 shooting against a unit with T4 and 2+ or 3+ isn't going to do a thing.

It's too close to AoS tactics which really are just plain stupid.



With drop pod assault half are hitting the table turn 1.
Meaning most pod based armies are running 8+ pods.
So your essentially having 4 units shoved in your face before you can do a thing.

Podding grav was bad enough for some armies, but with this aswell?
It's too much.





If they bring this in then every army needs a warp quake type ability to deal with it.

I don't get the big deal with assaulting from deep strike. After all You can get shot of the table turn 1 either by units arriving from deep strike or by units still in your deployment zone

Assaulting straight out of deepstrike is a big deal.
It can cripple most armies with ease.
More so against tanks being assaulted as they don't get overwatch against it.

Shooting straight out of deepstrike is a big deal.
It can cripple most armies with ease.
More so against tanks being shot as they don't get (overwatch) against it.

"If they bring this in then every army needs a warp quake type ability to deal with it."

More easy win buttons for shooting lists? Gotcha.

You can't overwatch against shooting anyway, that's always been there so your point really doesn't do alot.

But giving the ability to assault out of DS aswell means you can pretty much auto delete any units on your first turn.

Tau players wouldn't have an army after turn 1, not one of any use anyway as any decent units would either be dead or locked in combat.



Tyranids would love to make use of this.
The ability for assaulting when you arrive would be huge for them.
But for armies without access to this (anyone but marines) it screws them even more.



I just get a bit fed up of every "fix" only working on 1 or 2 specific armies, rather than the ones that really need the help.

As it stands pods already drop off one of the best weapons in the game.
Without risk of DS mishap, straight to the enemies door.




If people want to fix something, great.
Just make sure it's across the board rather than for a select few, that then hampers everyone else.









Edit: Martel, its not an easy win button, its a defence, much like skyfire and overwatch.
An easy win button is podding in against a shooting army and assaulting them straight off the bat.


And before anyone starts about "tau player" or that usual crap, I run nids and daemons, so my army focus's on assault.

Well they already ignore a whole host of core rules, why not hand out some more perks for marine players?

They can't ignore being shot off the table which is the most important mechanic. If marines had all the advantages people claimed, ba wouldn't be god awful still.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I look at it this way...

Terminators teleporting in from the perspective of a Chaos Cultist: The air becomes charged. Your hair stands on end. You feel a flash of light and a distinct pressure as displaced air assaults you. As the dust settles, you look up to see Terminators standing where none stood before.

And they need your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.

Had to exalt.


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I am perfectly happy with my shadow-strike kill team being able to assault from deep strike (even happier I can do it turn 1 in the talon strike force). My opponents really aren't to happy about it. Dropping Kiros Fateweaver turn one just makes people angry it seems. Realistically though...I had to spend nearly 400 points on a unit of vangardvets to reliably run the tactic + 2 tax units of scouts and a few more units of scout bikes with homers to really run it effectively...For that price I can almost take 2 IK which would be far more reliable. So I think the key to assault from deep strike should be force requirements and only specific units should be able to do it.

Martel732 wrote:
They can't ignore being shot off the table which is the most important mechanic. If marines had all the advantages people claimed, ba wouldn't be god awful still.

'Marines' have a lot of advantages BA don't. Free transports (vanilla book), Librarius (vanilla/DA), jink shenanigans (vanilla/DA), fast T5 deathstars (SW), Centurions (vanilla). I still think you're underestimating your Codex, but it's true many of the stupid tournament power-shenanigans most Marine books have skipped you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"If they bring this in then every army needs a warp quake type ability to deal with it."

More easy win buttons for shooting lists? Gotcha.

Go spend a week playing Tau and then tell me the ability to do something about enemy armies charging you turn one with no chance of mishap is an 'easy win button' for a shooty list.

Interceptor has ended lists' viability in one turn. Especially now that they have intercepting marker lights. Tau are the least affected by assault from DS.

" stupid tournament power-shenanigans most Marine books have"

So that means the shenaningans are the strong part, not the actual marines. So people need to quit complaining about marines ignoring rules. ATSKNF is an artifact of 3rd ed. It was hot back then, now it mean very, very little when plan A is to just shoot them to death.

Simply put, BA are not regular marines.
So people talking about marine gear doesn't always relate to BA.
BA have sadly been kicked about with poor books one after the other (being my first proper army too)

How many armies have a deepstrike transport with assault vehicle?
Oh, that would be marine varieties.

So what about the assault based armies?
Orks, nids, daemons.
These are the ones with the need for a boost as they are far more fragile and need to be in combat.

So the answer is give marines the ability when they are primarily a shooting based army.
Makes sense.



I'd be interested to see someone running a list making full use of this against other armies.
Pretty sure it would neuter most armies turn 1 then mop up over 2 and possibly 3 if they have not quit by then.

But BA have all the special rules that marines do on a unit by unit basis for the most part. The divergence is formations mostly. Formations are NOT an inherent property of marines. So people need to quit whining about ATSKNF. That rule doesn't matter anymore.

 Rotary wrote:
We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

No, sorry, Jackal is right. These super-assault unit just jack up the game to another level, but without balancing it - it just becomes more broken. Certain armies can deal with EVERYTHING, so they will deal with deepassaulters too - but others will just be more screwed and underpowered.

If shooting is too strong, just reintroduce better transport rules and make the game more tactical, not a point-and-click dumbfest in which who has the most broken deathstar wins*.


* albeit I possibly just described many 40k games in general


Also, as a general rule, I find absolutely INFURIATING that everything is measured by marines standard.
"Gargantuan creature? why you are upset, there is grav."
Assault is weak, we should do something to drop pods"

THERE ARE OTHER ARMIES. GW already seems to forget it sometimes, the fanbase should not do the same mistake, IMHO.

So Martel, BA have full use off all vanilla marine units then?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

If shooting is too strong, just reintroduce better transport rules and make the game more tactical

I think this is the most important way to solve the assault from deepstrike argument. No one would be arguing as strongly for assault from deep strike if it was actually possible to get transports across the board reliably. Mobility is key to assault. Two of the best assault units right now, wulfen and TWC, both have the ability to move very quickly without deepstrike or transport

 Jackal wrote:
So Martel, BA have full use off all vanilla marine units then?

No, but the only one that really matters is grav cents. But lack of invis access makes even this no that great. One could say land speeder storm, but those are far from broken.

If BA had gladius and skyhammer, they'd instantly be towards the top again.

Oh no, lack of invis!
You mean like most other armies right?


The idea of different chapters is to have a different army from other chapters.
If everyone has the same opinion why not bin chapters altogether and run the basic book with red marines?
Then everyone has the same toys.



Just because one army has something does not mean they should all get it.






Currently though, marines aren't short on toys to use.
They have something for all occasions to be fair.

I'm just getting at the fact they need more ways to push lower tier armies even lower.




Hell, let nids assault from their pods and see how long it takes for them to be pushing high tier.
Would make in interesting game to watch.

"They have something for all occasions to be fair. "

Vanilla, yes.

Maybe give BA jump troops assault from DS as a default as well as Deathwing terminators. Give it to units that are currently poor.

 Jackal wrote:
Oh no, lack of invis!
You mean like most other armies right?


The idea of different chapters is to have a different army from other chapters.
If everyone has the same opinion why not bin chapters altogether and run the basic book with red marines?
Then everyone has the same toys.



Just because one army has something does not mean they should all get it.






Currently though, marines aren't short on toys to use.
They have something for all occasions to be fair.

I'm just getting at the fact they need more ways to push lower tier armies even lower.




Hell, let nids assault from their pods and see how long it takes for them to be pushing high tier.
Would make in interesting game to watch.

Thank you for your sanity Jackal.

There will always be a call for this as long as shooting is an overwhelming as it is. Another solution is to cheapen all assault units, as 85% of them will accomplish nothing anyway.

No, there will always be a call for it from people with possible access to it.
Every other armies assault units are still no better than they were.


So this is not improving the game, its just improving marines.
2 very different things.







Sure, give BA jump troops.
While we are at it bring back EW in synapse range, CC viable Orks and a whole host of other things that should exist still.

This still has no effect on the topic though.
It's simply wish listing for BA.





Assault once reached will make or break armies.
Making 1st turn assaults possible with half an army are too much.
More so when on a select few armies can do it and even less have a counter for it.

I can't think of any other way of ruining 40k past its current state lol.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
We need some assault from arrival again with balance. Shooting army's have become the only viable option at this point and it's boring.

If shooting is too strong, just reintroduce better transport rules and make the game more tactical

I think this is the most important way to solve the assault from deepstrike argument. No one would be arguing as strongly for assault from deep strike if it was actually possible to get transports across the board reliably. Mobility is key to assault. Two of the best assault units right now, wulfen and TWC, both have the ability to move very quickly without deepstrike or transport

Thats a great point. At the very least people should be able to assault out of a stationary transport. I'd go further and say that all vehicals should be treated like current assault vehicals and actual assault vehicals should be able to move their full distance and allow for assault as well (maybe even giving the fleet bonus to their unit as well).

Martel732 wrote:
...lack of invis access...

...You're in the Armies of the Imperium. You're allowed to staple a 55pt Inquisitor who's rolling on Telepathy to anything you want, no questions asked, no f***s given.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...lack of invis access...

...You're in the Armies of the Imperium. You're allowed to staple a 55pt Inquisitor who's rolling on Telepathy to anything you want, no questions asked, no f***s given.

I don't play codex: armies of Imperium. That's a $2000 dollar codex.

Right. But it wouldn't only work for marines what about Dark Eldar? They have deep strike with open topped transports, open topped meens assault vehicle. so they can assault from deep strike. cool with wyches or wracks.

OK so should I my rules for deep strike assault vehicles, A. Here; because we are discussing them here, or B. over in the proposed rules section; and either we all go their read 'em, or we comment on them there.

I'm sill fairly new here so I don't know what to do when a discusion on existing rule expands to include fan made rules. ?

Yeah, give it to DE, too. They need all the help they can get.

See DE need a hell of a boost.
More so for wyches since the haywire grenades got a FAQ.
So assault for them would be a benefit to the army.


Come to think about it, what armies have a deepstriking vehicle with OT or assault vehicle?
As this would apply to any of those.

OK this is a hot topic clearly.

Right I'm sure we all have lots of interesting and passionate views on assaulting from deep strike, but this discusion was to discuss, transport vehicles that for no additional cost always have both deep strike and assault vehicle, or deep strike and open topped. Everything else is another debate entirely.

The reason I started this thread because there are transport vehicles who already have these rules, and in their descriptions it states they are used to assault the moment they reach the enemy.

These vehcles are clearly supposed to allow for drop assaults but the current rules on deep strike don't allow it.

my sugestion is that in situations that involve transport vehicles who have both deep strike and assault vehicles or deep strike and open topped. There should be amendments to over watch and the deep strike rules to allow these vehicles to perform the function that they were clearly always meant to.

does that sound reasonable?

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...lack of invis access...

...You're in the Armies of the Imperium. You're allowed to staple a 55pt Inquisitor who's rolling on Telepathy to anything you want, no questions asked, no f***s given.

I don't play codex: armies of Imperium. That's a $2000 dollar codex.

So your Codex doesn't work in a vacuum. You're stuck with a weak army because you insist on playing out of one book. Woo. Cry me a river.

(Context: My Daemonhunters army has been chopped up to the point that I'm actually not allowed to play it if I don't spend $150ish on three Codexes and a dataslate.)

You know that more than half the game needs allies/supplements/forgeworld to function, right? Including four of eight of the 'Xenos' books you're so fond of grumbling about the OPness of?

I don't think they want marines assaulting out of drop pods. You'd get less flakk about raiders.

 Andross wrote:
OK this is a hot topic clearly.

Right I'm sure we all have lots of interesting and passionate views on assaulting from deep strike, but this discusion was to discuss, transport vehicles that for no additional cost always have both deep strike and assault vehicle, or deep strike and open topped. Everything else is another debate entirely.

The reason I started this thread because there are transport vehicles who already have these rules, and in their descriptions it states they are used to assault the moment they reach the enemy.

These vehcles are clearly supposed to allow for drop assaults but the current rules on deep strike don't allow it.

my sugestion is that in situations that involve transport vehicles who have both deep strike and assault vehicles or deep strike and open topped. There should be amendments to over watch and the deep strike rules to allow these vehicles to perform the function that they were clearly always meant to.

does that sound reasonable?

The issue is that reliable/risk free Deep Strike is an incredibly good and unfairly limited mechanic that five of the 25-odd Codexes in the game are allowed right now. Of those five books only one of them actually needs the help (BA, as Martel is so fond of reminding us).

The fluff logic of coming out of a pod and sitting there for a turn may be counterintuitive, but the fact that I'm not allowed to call my Flyers in to blow up your pods on the way in, the fact that the Space Marines are somehow infinitely better at timing their reserves than everyone else in the game, and the fact that a Drop Pod can't mishap by landing in an illegal position but a Valkyrie can mishap by landing in a legal position are all similarly counterintuitive.

So you're poking at a hole in the entire confused logic of Deep Strike and Reserves in general that isn't anywhere close to the largest, most unbalancing, or most urgent hole in the system, and would make things worse if you patched it the way you're suggesting. Assaulting out of Deep Strike isn't inherently a bad idea, but trying to do it as a band-aid patch without scrapping and overhauling the entirety of the Reserves rules (especially in a way that hands it to a small chunk of the game that's already ahead of the curve on Reserves) isn't going to help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think they want marines assaulting out of drop pods. You'd get less flakk about raiders.

You'd get less flak about Raiders because the transport/Reserves rules have been revised and the only things that would be able to assault out of Raiders are the worst assault units in the game. (Also Incubi.)

You'd get less flak about giving the Orks some way to assault out of Deep Strike because they're the worst army in the game and need the help.

This isn't an anti-human persecution complex bender we're on.

Invisibility should not be granted to everyone, it should die in a fire.

OK applicable units that I know of.

Dark Eldar: the Raider and the Venom.

Imperial and Chaos Space Marines: the Kharybdis Assault Claw, Dreadclaw Drop Pod and Caestus Assault Ram.

Astra Militarum: Vakyrie.

Necrons: Nightscythe.

probably more but I can't afford every Codex:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as I have house rules for using them fairly. If anyone's Interested.

With regards to how many armies will benefit. If the rule mechanic worked by the next updated every codex: would have at least one transport unit with the special rule.

Que a massive exploding drum on a springy foot thing for Orks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ooh. I've got another one Eldar Harlequins can assault out their wave serpenty thing and Ithink that can deep strike.

I don't even like drop pods the way they work now. There is something fundamentally wrong with being able to deploy your troops within your opponents deployment zone after your opponent has deployed and then being able to shoot all his most valuable pieces with destructive short range weapons like grav guns, meltaguns, flamers or nasty psychic powers before he has even gotten a turn. If I had my way, drop pods would just be a way to grant deepstriking to units that otherwise couldn't, they would not come on turn 1, and they would not eliminate deepstrike mishaps, and the sure as heck would not grant assault out of deepstrike. The idea of taking this up to 11 through risk free assaults on your opponents backline units before he has gotten a turn is down right broken, and everyone here bloody well knows that.

The tradeoff between assault and shooting is that assault is intended to deliver a decisive blow within a single turn while units can often whether several turns of shooting, but assault is more difficult to pull of as a unit must first be maneuvered into charge range often at great risk. Charging a unit should be a reward for outmaneuvering your opponent rather than something that can be pulled off using reserve shenanigans that grants little to no counterplay. Units that aren't even on the board have no business pulling of charges, because the opponent has absolutely no chance to react to them. There is no movement phase to move into a better position or shooting phase to try a pick them off, an assault specialist simply enters reserves, charges and kills a unit and there is nothing the opposing player can do about it. Unless of course they are Tau. But is massed overwatch and interceptor the way we want the game to go? Because that is the way it would have to go if there are to be any real defenses against units assaulting straight out of deepstrike.

Now I do agree assault is to weak right now but this is the wrong way to go about correcting the problem. The game rules need to be modified to make it so assault units that start deployed on a table have a reasonable chance of making it into assault when the correct tactics are used, rather than adding yet another layer of deployment and list building nonsense into the game. Back in fourth edition, there were no drop pods, no assaulting out of deepstrike, no outflanking of any kind, and yet you constantly saw units like assault marines, khorne berserkers and genestealers on the tabletop because they had a reasonable chance of surviving shooting. Assault can be made viable by getting rid of overwatch, bringing back abstracted terrain and toning down shooting lethality instead of resorting to even more power creep. And when done in this way, it keeps the units on the tabletop and leaves the success of the assault down to tactics on the tabletop, rather than list building and deployment.

The main problem about deep striking assault units is they lack any counter. Your only option is to hope and pray for good cover placement in relations to the receivers units.

One friend of mine suggested making it as if the assaulting unit was charging through cover.... yeah fine.... but how does that help GEQ's or vehicles who can't do anything at all against such units?

You might as well remove non transport vehicles from 40k if you can assault from deep strike or reserves.

Well I don't have details as yet. But I think if I'm getting the jist right there's new rules in the "Planetary Onslaught book", I think I've got that right? In the planet strike section for games where one side is the defender and get's free terrain and fortifications and buffs to overwatch, skyfire and intercepter. The other side are the attackers and get free deep strike for all units, even ones that don't normally have it and deep strike vehicles and re-rolls for reserves and they can assault straight out of deep stike.

If anyone out there has a copy of the supplement let me know if that's correct.

Anyway I started this debate to guage how people would feel those rules became commonplace for certain units and formations as long as there were counter rules for overwatch etc. to balance things out.

I think if done right it could be realy good for the game.

As i've said already, I already have house rules which work realy well. And I feel, and my gaming group feel, they fit into the game realy well.

as I said, I'll share them with anyone whose interested, have a few games with youre mates then hit me up with some feedback.

I've been at this hobby for a little over two decades, it'd be nice to think I had made a constructive contribution, even it's only how not to do assault from deep stike.

Hold on, don't the assault transports listed have a silly level of manoeuvrability anyway? I mean, raiders are skimmers so ignore terrain (and also, why would you deepstrike transports and risk mishap?)

The others, iirc, are flyers, so have a degree of protection when they come from reserves and y'know, can cover a table length in a turn, you just have to hover before assaulting (a fair trade off imo), so why deepstrike them and again, risk a mishap for an expensive model? (Also, the Valkyrie was never intended as an Assault transport fyi, it's a paratrooper flyer, drop in, shoot everything, secure the area type of thing)

As far as pods go, No. Inertial guidance system is too powerful as it is, and assaulting from one is even worse. It surmounts to a guaranteed placement, and guaranteed charge (because pre-measure). Omnissiah no.

I always thought of melee as the ultimate high-risk, high-reward tactic if you could get there. And there are LOADS of ways to reliably reach combat anyway (Dakka needs toning down a touch though).

Well in regards to marine pods anyway the units inside should be stuck inside the turn they arrive. Pods are under costed as they are, but the way they should work is similar to the Forgeworld lucious pod rules, the turn they land they have shrouded (huge plume of debris/dust/whatever they land on) and the unit stays in the pod until next turn (meaning you have to attack the pod and they can not deploy or assault). As an opentopped vehicle they could still shoot out, but really they should only be able to make snap shots after landing (not counts as moving or anything like that, strictly snap shots only). On the turn after deployment they must deploy, can shoot as normal, and assault out (open topped). $.02

AndrewChristlieb wrote:
Well in regards to marine pods anyway the units inside should be stuck inside the turn they arrive. Pods are under costed as they are, but the way they should work is similar to the Forgeworld lucious pod rules, the turn they land they have shrouded (huge plume of debris/dust/whatever they land on) and the unit stays in the pod until next turn (meaning you have to attack the pod and they can not deploy or assault). As an opentopped vehicle they could still shoot out, but really they should only be able to make snap shots after landing (not counts as moving or anything like that, strictly snap shots only). On the turn after deployment they must deploy, can shoot as normal, and assault out (open topped). $.02

That'd make some sense, but be overpowered. While they might have to wait a turn to assault, they get an AV 12 bunker to hide in for that turn they wait.

With shrouded. I agree it would be over powered, but pods really are now anyway, well underpriced at least.

Ok standard drop pods are cheep, but they would not benefit from the rules as they are not assault vehicles.

To use the special rule you would need to purchase the more expensive Dreadclaw and Kharybdis, which don't have the guidance special rules making the deep assaults risky, there is your trade off.

Before posting check the vehicle has the correct special skills. Harping on about how unfair a vehicle would be using the rules can't actually use just looks silly. Seriously. vanilla pods don't have assault vehicle, so stop moaning about them.

OK the Deep Assault special rule, as per my gaming club's house rule will be posted in the proposed rules section sometime tomorrow. This rule is only available for vehicles which have the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rules or the Deep Strike and Open Topped special rule. It combines and where necessary replaces all or part of these rules.

I will include a list of vehicles that we use this rule for, if anyone thinks they no a no of a vehicle not on the list, that would work as a Deep Assault vehicle, leave a suggestion and explanation and I'll check them out and let you know what I think.

Any suggestion must conform to the following criteria.

1: Must be a vehicle.

2. Must be able to arrive via deep strike.

3 must be open topped or have an assault ramp or have a mechanism which allows for a rapid disembarcation. Also vehicles that teleport or air drop the embarked unit on to the battlefield would be applicable.

I'm also posting the Dedicated Over Watch rule as the are designed to go against each other.

I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

I drop Dreadnoughts in both Lucius pattern and normal Drop Pods, interestingly enough, playing on an 8x4 table at over 1000 points there aren't many armies that can't thwart the Drop Pod.
My Drop Pods have been hard countered by Ork, Guard and Tyranid players just by way of model placement.
Craftworld Eldar, Tau and Necrons can purchase hard counters to the Pods.
So, what does that leave us with that truly suffers and can't do anything about the first turn Drop Pods?
The bottom teir Space Marines, the Sisters, Dark Eldar and Daemons...

Anybody feeling the sympathy there?
Even bottom tier Space Marines get access to Drop Pods themselves.
Daemons and Dark Eldar both have limited access to units that can use Templates with enough power to damage the Dread while it's still in the Pod.

So that leaves the Sisters.

 Andross wrote:
OK the Deep Assault special rule, as per my gaming club's house rule will be posted in the proposed rules section sometime tomorrow. This rule is only available for vehicles which have the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rules or the Deep Strike and Open Topped special rule. It combines and where necessary replaces all or part of these rules.

I will include a list of vehicles that we use this rule for, if anyone thinks they no a no of a vehicle not on the list, that would work as a Deep Assault vehicle, leave a suggestion and explanation and I'll check them out and let you know what I think.

Any suggestion must conform to the following criteria.

1: Must be a vehicle.

2. Must be able to arrive via deep strike.

3 must be open topped or have an assault ramp or have a mechanism which allows for a rapid disembarcation. Also vehicles that teleport or air drop the embarked unit on to the battlefield would be applicable.

doesn't a stormraven fit all 3 criteria?

do BA still have access to their Deepstriking Land Raiders?

makes me think; if a deepstrike platform that cannot mishap (unless it lands off the table) and shows up on turn one costs 35 points, and a deepstriking platform (that cannot arrive turn one) but has an assault ramp is north of 200 points, how much are you willing to pay for a drop pod with all 3 abilities? as much as a Land Raider?

 carldooley wrote:

 Andross wrote:
OK the Deep Assault special rule, as per my gaming club's house rule will be posted in the proposed rules section sometime tomorrow. This rule is only available for vehicles which have the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rules or the Deep Strike and Open Topped special rule. It combines and where necessary replaces all or part of these rules.

I will include a list of vehicles that we use this rule for, if anyone thinks they no a no of a vehicle not on the list, that would work as a Deep Assault vehicle, leave a suggestion and explanation and I'll check them out and let you know what I think.

Any suggestion must conform to the following criteria.

1: Must be a vehicle.

2. Must be able to arrive via deep strike.

3 must be open topped or have an assault ramp or have a mechanism which allows for a rapid disembarcation. Also vehicles that teleport or air drop the embarked unit on to the battlefield would be applicable.

doesn't a stormraven fit all 3 criteria?

do BA still have access to their Deepstriking Land Raiders?

makes me think; if a deepstrike platform that cannot mishap (unless it lands off the table) and shows up on turn one costs 35 points, and a deepstriking platform (that cannot arrive turn one) but has an assault ramp is north of 200 points, how much are you willing to pay for a drop pod with all 3 abilities? as much as a Land Raider?

Blood Angels only have one way of getting reliability on Reserves and it's an unreliable, expensive Psychic discipline.
When you've spent around 200 points on a Flyer plus whatever it's bringing by way of cargo then flunk all your Reserve rolls so the blasted thing doesn't arrive until the battle has already been decided you kind of develop a bit of mistrust for the things.
For 240 points plus Land Raiders are remarkably bad at what they do. They're supposed to be troop transports, what they actually are is a player putting a lot of points in a single place to be shot at.
When an assault army destroys a transport in the first few swings and still has a lot of attacks and initiative steps left they just stop and stare at the disembarked cargo.
When a shootie army destroys a transport they just choose another unit to open fire on whatever comes out.

 Andross wrote:
Well I don't have details as yet. But I think if I'm getting the jist right there's new rules in the "Planetary Onslaught book", I think I've got that right? In the planet strike section for games where one side is the defender and get's free terrain and fortifications and buffs to overwatch, skyfire and intercepter. The other side are the attackers and get free deep strike for all units, even ones that don't normally have it and deep strike vehicles and re-rolls for reserves and they can assault straight out of deep stike.

Anyway I started this debate to guage how people would feel those rules became commonplace for certain units and formations as long as there were counter rules for overwatch etc. to balance things out.

I think if done right it could be realy good for the game.

See this is exactly my problem with assault out of deep strike. Does this not strike you as just another arms race, at least in the slightest? It looks like the game could easily degenerate into a turn 1 dice rolling contest to see if the defenders interceptor and overwatch can take out turn one assault deepstrikers before the defenders army is crippled, and all before the defender has been given a single turn.

Go on nearly any thread on these forums regarding the Tau in general or on specific Tau units, and see what the posters on those threads have to say about the army wide overwatch and interceptor capability of the Tau. Here is a spoiler warning for you, the posters seem to despise these rules. Now you are proposing to make these same hated rules game wide just so the person defending against the assaulting deepstrikers has a chance. It seems like a disaster just waiting to happen. Certainly it would make sense to go in the other direction instead, and look for ways to remove overwatch and interceptor from the game rather than adding overpowered stuff to the game that requires these hated rules.

The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer.

Finally someone acknowledges this. Some suggested it earlier but it got ignored. You don't have to get out of a dreadclaw or karybdis. In 30k my buddy uses a bunch of dreadclaws with Emperors Children palantine blades. Come in wherever you want, then move to assault the next turn. The pod can heat blast units it runs over and can even go airborne as a flyer to continue to transport. Even if they couldn't deepstrike like a pod, the AV12 all around and assault vehicle status alone make them worth their points. Assault vehicle is not worthless as units can continue to get in and out as it moves throughout the game. It even comes with a flight stand when you buy one from FW.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


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If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


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Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


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 Miindhaze wrote:

The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer.

Finally someone acknowledges this. Some suggested it earlier but it got ignored. You don't have to get out of a dreadclaw or karybdis. In 30k my buddy uses a bunch of dreadclaws with Emperors Children palantine blades. Come in wherever you want, then move to assault the next turn. The pod can heat blast units it runs over and can even go airborne as a flyer to continue to transport. Even if they couldn't deepstrike like a pod, the AV12 all around and assault vehicle status alone make them worth their points. Assault vehicle is not worthless as units can continue to get in and out as it moves throughout the game. It even comes with a flight stand when you buy one from FW.

Very true. As I have already said I do play as skimming assault transports land'm safe the first turn. Then zipm overto something you don't and drop termies and chosen on it's head.

The thing is I started playing Warhammer 40K wirh 2nd edition when assaults and overwatch actually worked. There should never be first turn deep striking it brakes the game and is crap. None of the peple I play with ever throw out reserves turn one when able to out of respect for their opponent and a great game that sadly got ruind.

the game became broken about 5th ed. and has been spiralling down the crap shot ever since, (although the recent return of a dedicated Psychic Phase was a good call) this is why my game group have to run so many house rules.

We need some sanity and balance ack in the game. otherwise we will end up with sci-fi Age of Sigmar and no one in their right mind wants that.

 Andross wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know this is a thread about assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle but I just want to chip in on the comment about FW making units that are 'useless' with GW rules (emphasis was on the CSM pods)...
The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer. With Chaos it's simple enough to get shrouding on a dreadclaw meaning you are almost certainly getting that Turn 2 charge if you start it on the table. It actually makes Abaddon, Kharn and/or Termis very, very viable. Especially when supported by a winged Nurgle DP. Even if you don't get shrouded you still have a 4+ and if it goes down the opponent still has to deal with Abaddon and his retinue right in their face with their remaining firepower (and in my case multitudes of cheap R&H spawn and sometimes bikes and/or a Knight).
Admittedly when I take it 2/3rds of my army is still R&H, so I'm not saying CSM are viable solo competitively as an army... but it turns a fair few of the units from no-gos to very likely includes. It would be nowhere near as effective a strategy without that dreadclaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want that shrouding for certain, Be'lakor is always avaliable too and with R&H, even though you have brought along Abaddon, Be'lakor, termis and a pod, you are still going to MASSIVELY outnumber your opponent.

Thanks for your input. I actually own 7 Kharibys Assault Claws and 10 Dreadclaw Assault Pods and use them very mutch as you sudjest here. I just feel they should do more for thier points. Having them as flying assault vehicles is stiil pretty sweet tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miindhaze wrote:

The Dreadclaw imo is one of, if not the, best vehicle avaliable to CSMs. Just don't use it from deepstrike and instead use it as an assault skimmer.

Finally someone acknowledges this. Some suggested it earlier but it got ignored. You don't have to get out of a dreadclaw or karybdis. In 30k my buddy uses a bunch of dreadclaws with Emperors Children palantine blades. Come in wherever you want, then move to assault the next turn. The pod can heat blast units it runs over and can even go airborne as a flyer to continue to transport. Even if they couldn't deepstrike like a pod, the AV12 all around and assault vehicle status alone make them worth their points. Assault vehicle is not worthless as units can continue to get in and out as it moves throughout the game. It even comes with a flight stand when you buy one from FW.

Very true. As I have already said I do play as skimming assault transports land'm safe the first turn. Then zipm overto something you don't and drop termies and chosen on it's head.

The thing is I started playing Warhammer 40K wirh 2nd edition when assaults and overwatch actually worked. There should never be first turn deep striking it brakes the game and is crap. None of the peple I play with ever throw out reserves turn one when able to out of respect for their opponent and a great game that sadly got ruind.

the game became broken about 5th ed. and has been spiralling down the crap shot ever since, (although the recent return of a dedicated Psychic Phase was a good call) this is why my game group have to run so many house rules.

We need some sanity and balance ack in the game. otherwise we will end up with sci-fi Age of Sigmar and no one in their right mind wants that.

Yeh with multiple dreadclaws points efficiency is always an issue because of the third pod needed for 2 to arrive turn 1. Its just very hard to fit them in a sub 2k list when also including contents. A single one though works wonders. I just plonk it in front of the opponent and move it in my shooting phase right in their faces within 6" of Be'lakor for the shrouding and basically silently state 'right - deal with it'. Because if they don't Abaddon + termis or Kharn + bezerkers are going to usually be popping out and assaulting and decimating 2 units - and that's not including what the Dark Prince is assaulting too. Even if they do deal with it the units are still there to deal with too. And if the opponents do shoot at it to bring it down (hard with the jink) that means the rest of my force moving up is usually relatively untouched. In games above 2k I have brought 3 dreadclaws before and had the first two with Kharn, bezerkers + Abaddon, termis on either side of Be'lakor. It rips the centre of the opponents line to pieces (side note - Be'lakor + Kharn charging a Knight who has very little chance of avoiding the charge = one very very dead Knight.) Third pod usually has melta or plasma chosen, but that is more of a tax to ensure the first two are on the board turn 1 and I dont waste the 100pts on a third empty pod.
Never taken more than three or ever taken a Karybis though. would go so far to say a dreadclaw, if supported correctly, is more devestating for what it does than even a Sicaran or Typhon (I know - bold claim!).
If I could take 100pt turn 1 deepstriking assault skimmers for my BA I would take them every single time without fail.

I'n my house rule fo deep assault you can't assault if you arrive turn one, it just wouldn't be fair. Infact I think we should get rid of turn 1 deep strike altogether.

In all the 23 years I've played 40K l think it's the most game breakin mechanic the rules team have ever come up with. And that's saying something considering the crap they've been releasing lately.

There are lots of good reasons for not allowing assaults from deep strike, and every time there have been opportunities that allow it, its been shown to be horrifically broken aside from stuff like 5E Vanguard Vets who were both very expensive and had to deal with harsher mishap penalties than we have now.

Now, therr are some things that should change for assaults, being able to assault from walk on reserve or out of a stationary transport being the big two, but assaulting from Deep Strike, particularly with how safe DS has become and how assured Reserves are now, should never be an option.

It's Deep Strike that's broken, there should be no deep strike on turn one, for a start.

But I've played every version of Warhammer 40K. Deep Strike, Assaults, Overwatch all used to work Great but since 5th edition Warhammer 40K's been falling apart.

If we don't start bringing back some of the old rules and game mechanics the game wont be worth playing in two or three years time.

 Andross wrote:


But I've played every version of Warhammer 40K. Deep Strike, Assaults, Overwatch all used to work Great but since 5th edition Warhammer 40K's been falling apart.

If we don't start bringing back some of the old rules and game mechanics the game wont be worth playing in two or three years time.

While I agree the game should definitely be rolled back to the days of 4th and 5th edition, there overwatch didn't even exist in these editions (nor did interceptor) and you certainly could not deepstrike out of assault, save for the aforementioned vanguard vets. So I am not sure where you are going here when you mentioned bringing back the old rules.

So, without referring to a rulebook or a battle report, what were people's fond memories of 5th edition? For me:

Tau Railguns being good, everything being CAD, apocalypse stuff in apoc, no hull points, you?

 carldooley wrote:
So, without referring to a rulebook or a battle report, what were people's fond memories of 5th edition? For me:

Tau Railguns being good, everything being CAD, apocalypse stuff in apoc, no hull points, you?

My main memories of fifth are rows of leafblowers, razorbacks, mech spam all over, and Chaos Daemons being absolutely gack because of that whole "Split the army in two and pray the one you want arrives".

Assault was better though! Even with those janky wound allocation rules.

I never played during 5th but I have played a few games under 5th rules, assault to assault consolidation was something I wish was still a thing.
Mind you, I was playing Nids under rules they thrived on.

I'm talking 2nd edition overwatch (That's right I 'veplayed since 2nd some thing most people here haven't even read about so here's an education)

2nd edition overwatch consisted of firiing overwatch in your opponents movement phase at the cost of your own shooting phase. That worked and felt sold.

Then in the errata for 3rd they got rid of it entirely.

Only to bring it back in 6th as the pile of crap we have now.

And of course we didn't have interceptor before deep strike. that would almost be as dumb as playing as current edition vanilla space marines and trying convincing people that you won for any other reason than what cod3x you put. on the table.

Wow, passionate posts from all sides

I personally own a Dreadclaw, but have only used it twice. It Munched Kharn as he left :( So that was faq'd I believe.

But I'd kill for a regular Drop Pod for 35 pts. The Dreadclaw is what... 100pts now? And it can still deepstrike mishap cause it doesn't have the rules of the 35pt model, but instead has some crap flame effect that has never worked for me as yet.

And have you SEEN the Karabydis? It's what, 350pts and probably the same in £'s to buy? THATs why it has awesome rules. It's HUGE!

I'd far rather my Nightlords had access to a regular drop pod to get them actually over the table, than relying on the dreadclaw not being blown up the turn it lands.

Tbh I think DSing needs to change in the new rules. But purely to benefit some of the assault armies out there (Not deathstars as earlier mentioned), but for armys who're meant to represent the fury from above that jump packs used to represent. They're very dated now.

Look at Nightlords, Blood Angels and the Raven Guard. All armies who are very jumpy, but I think only the CSM formations now allow them to do a disorganised charge from deepstrike.

My group have heard me banging on for years on how unfair it is that all of IoM get to deploy half their reserves turn one in my face. Planting SW Dreadnaughts and Drop pods directly in line of my deployment roads. Land Raiders and other things then basically being pinned into the roads that the scenery had left out for them. Not to mention they can contain AP3 vets or Lotd. Hey, their decurion gives them free vehicles too doesn't it?

It's a cool way of playing and I don't think it should be removed. Tbh all armies should have the option opened up for them, rather than removing it. Very thematic & I know my CSM armies used to struggle to get halfway over the board in the past.

They would sure as hell sell more models.

Gonna quote my post I made on the same subject thats under the proposed rules section, change no ranged to, no ranged other then pistols and or grenades

 Backspacehacker wrote:
How about we just say this and make this whole thread boil down and be solved.

Lightning Strike: If a unit has deep strike, or disembarks from a transport of anykind and is a dedicated melee class (No ranged weapons, HQs do not factor in) They my assault on the turn the disembark or deep strike, but do so as if is a disordered charge.

You can then apply this rule to units as needed.

Banshees, assault terminators, Deathwing knights, assault marines, ect ect.

BOOM! problem solved you can now deep strike your melee units into combat and have them actually do something reather then sit there for a turn looking like dick heads. This also would make howling banshees playable again. Terminators a bit more scare, and you can assault outta a drop pod if you are assault maries, or of the like.

It also makes it so for things like terminators they cant deep strike, open fire AND charge you.

Overwatch: Dont change a thing, shooting is already way to strong is this ed, and overwatch in 2nd and 3rd was crazy OP and result in in games where no one would actually move anywhere because it was not worth it.

No, no, no. Chaos does not need ISM drop pods.

What we need ISM drop pods to stop being a broken outright filthy cheating option. It's Codex ISM that needs to stop being an embarrassing instant wiin by proxy piles of crap.

If all armies had risk free first turn deep strike. then there'd be no deployment zones, no designated boardd edges, no reserves, the first turn would become the set up were ever the hell you wan't phase.

Only a complete moron would advocate sutch idiotic game braking rubbish.

Turn one drop pods are hardly game breaking, and they definitely are not cheating lol.

First of all its their most iconic form of deployment, second only half your drop pods rounding up show up automatically, the rest need to be rolled for which this may come as a surprise is not a garuntee. So you could end up going half the game with only 3/4th on your army on the board.

If you think drop pods and turn one Deep strike is the problem, you are looking in the wrong place.

See: overpowered formation, grav.

Also you can only fit so much is drop pods, foot slogging marines, dreads, and if you cheese it centurions.


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Also you might want to calm it on tossing around "only a complete moron would do X." It's going to quickly loose you creditability and the form will end up nowhere fast

 Grumzimus wrote:

But I'd kill for a regular Drop Pod for 35 pts. The Dreadclaw is what... 100pts now? And it can still deepstrike mishap cause it doesn't have the rules of the 35pt model, but instead has some crap flame effect that has never worked for me as yet.
.

That is the first time it occurred to me that they do not have inertial guidance. That is a game changer right there. Latest 30k rules cranked the dreadclaw to 115, although it could be years before that is reflected in an IA book.

Not letting any deepstrike occur turn 1 is an interesting thought, but it pretty much kills drop pods rather than slightly curbing their power. I think drop pods probably should be about 50-60pts, although with gladius its not like transport costs matter for SM anyway. Having an obsec AV12 box automatically arriving where you need it to is just dramatically more useful than a 35pt rhino. If the rhino gets where you need it too, its still so fragile that the chance of actually hopping back in for a second ride is almost non-existent. Being able to assault from stationary vehicles and from outflank to me seems like a much more reasonable compromise.

I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

 Andross wrote:
I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

Out of curiosity for a CSM player, what are your thoughts when your units get deleted before you get to touch them by a unit sitting snugly in the corner eight or so feet away? I'm sure the feeling isn't that foreign to you.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Andross wrote:
I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

Out of curiosity for a CSM player, what are your thoughts when your units get deleted before you get to touch them by a unit sitting snugly in the corner eight or so feet away? I'm sure the feeling isn't that foreign to you.

Well firsly, you have made a faux assumption. I am not a "CSM" player. My game time is split fairly evenly between my Chaos, Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Eldar Harlequins, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids.

My Chaos Space Marines force is by far the largest of my armies, but thast's not a gaming preference, it's an artistic one. They are by far the most convertable and customisably army in 40K so I've been able to infuse more diversify and charactre into that force.

I also have some Genesteaer Cult sets but Ihaven,t put any together yet. I ran out of display space I will have some shiny new cabinets some time next week. They were suposed to be here already but the store fluft up my order. First they doubled my order. hen when I rang to correct it they cancelled the whole order. Any way they said this coming week for definite.

I do get a lot of infiltraters shooting me up. My brother Adam has lots of Wolf Scouts and they can be a pain from time to time. But hen my Dark Eldar are out using webway portals and mandrakes, Or my 'nids with their Raveners and Lictors. And even my CSM can get in on the fun if I roll Master of Deception (or I'm playing Huron) and I roll a good D3. So I've got no problem with infultrate.

Now as for first turn deep strike. It never happens when I play. Our game group voted and the motion to disallow the rule passed unanimously. We have too much respect for each other and the game than to use such a stupid broken rule,

And ust so you know Adam runs quite a lot of drop pods both with his Space Wolves and Ultra Marines and he always rolls for scatter and mishap. Entirely his own choice. Basically he says he likes to win because he out fought and out manoeuvred his opponent, not because he cheated.

Well at least that's one ISM player with some dignity and self respect. I mean it's a start right?

Again i think you are give drop pods to much credit, remember all you are going to get outta them are either space marines, or dreads both of which on their own, are not that scary.

And secondly, its not like you dont know its going to happen, if you are going up against a player how is bringing 7 drop pods, you know 4 are coming in turn one, and you should be planning accordingly to that.

Again, drop pods are hardly what makes them OP.

If you wanna talk about OP, look at the gladius or lions blade formation, where you can take over 300 points of free transports that all have objective secured.

Drop pods are highly overrated.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

This.

They are only armor 12 with a storm bolter, thats not very scary.

The only time they are really well utilized if you use them in a semi deathstar(?) where you load up one with a dev squad fully kitted with either melta or grav, and attach a cataphractii captain to it, that way they all get slow and purposful.

Drop that next to your opponents deathstar, or what have you, and watch it vanish on the board. But again, thats a death star unit so its going to be cheesy and scary.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

xlDuke wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

Again, i need to stress this, you also need to look at how overpowered the SM codex is currently.

I will say this though, man you put a BA Dread in one with those claws, i had a game once where i was running toward an marker, my opponent dropped taht on it. Asked him, "So how many attacks does that get?....oh wow, S10 yeah? ....wait what? At initiative?!" Turned my bikes around and floored it as far and fast as i could lol.

xlDuke wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

Are they powerful? They strand the contents on foot. If the alpha strike fails, they are stranded and likely dead. Skyhammer pods are good because the contents are relentless. Gladius pods are good because they are free and obj sec. Standard old drop pod? I think Rhinos are better.

 Andross wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Andross wrote:
I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

Out of curiosity for a CSM player, what are your thoughts when your units get deleted before you get to touch them by a unit sitting snugly in the corner eight or so feet away? I'm sure the feeling isn't that foreign to you.

Well firsly, you have made a faux assumption. I am not a "CSM" player. My game time is split fairly evenly between my Chaos, Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Eldar Harlequins, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids.

My Chaos Space Marines force is by far the largest of my armies, but thast's not a gaming preference, it's an artistic one. They are by far the most convertable and customisably army in 40K so I've been able to infuse more diversify and charactre into that force.

I also have some Genesteaer Cult sets but Ihaven,t put any together yet. I ran out of display space I will have some shiny new cabinets some time next week. They were suposed to be here already but the store fluft up my order. First they doubled my order. hen when I rang to correct it they cancelled the whole order. Any way they said this coming week for definite.

I do get a lot of infiltraters shooting me up. My brother Adam has lots of Wolf Scouts and they can be a pain from time to time. But hen my Dark Eldar are out using webway portals and mandrakes, Or my 'nids with their Raveners and Lictors. And even my CSM can get in on the fun if I roll Master of Deception (or I'm playing Huron) and I roll a good D3. So I've got no problem with infultrate.

Now as for first turn deep strike. It never happens when I play. Our game group voted and the motion to disallow the rule passed unanimously. We have too much respect for each other and the game than to use such a stupid broken rule,

And ust so you know Adam runs quite a lot of drop pods both with his Space Wolves and Ultra Marines and he always rolls for scatter and mishap. Entirely his own choice. Basically he says he likes to win because he out fought and out manoeuvred his opponent, not because he cheated.

Well at least that's one ISM player with some dignity and self respect. I mean it's a start right?

I didn't falsly assume anything, you own a CSM army and play them, you are a CSM player.
Getting shot up by an Infiltrating unit at 36' is hardly having units removed by something at the other end of the board.
Does your brother use Wulfen+TWC combinations?

Martel732 wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

Are they powerful? They strand the contents on foot. If the alpha strike fails, they are stranded and likely dead. Skyhammer pods are good because the contents are relentless. Gladius pods are good because they are free and obj sec. Standard old drop pod? I think Rhinos are better.

The Rhino is a good transport for sure but its fairly tame as far as transports go. An AV12 roadblock that almost can't mishap and gets your shooty dudes instantly in range with little opportunity (for most factions) to retaliate is a bit better in my opinion. Sure it's not great for a lot of units and really shines in a couple of detachments/formations, but even without any additional special rules it's amazing for a few units. In a Rhino your guys aren't unlikely to end up on foot and taking casualties before using those expensive shooting weapons, a Drop Pod at least allows you to do what damage you can before (again, most factions) can deal with them. For the price I think they're an absolute steal and a list built around them sorely tempts me to collect SM one of these days.

Which units do you think? Because I've pounded most drop sternguard lists since 5th ed. The bottom line is that the marine list in general has limited firepower, except for a few specific exceptions.

Those Sternguard you mentioned of course benefit greatly, Devastator Centurions, Devastators with certain weapon (Grav-cannons aren't so bad as most because of Salvo, Heavy Flamers if one was inclined toward non-TAC loadouts) and even Tactical Squads get a chance to use that special weapon and perhaps that grav-cannon if they went so deep into the rabbit hole, and a full squad of Rapid-fire Bolters in addition is okay against some things. Now I know that Tac Marines aren't the shootiest thing around but if you've got to or want to take them you're probably giving them a transport and the Pod is a nice option. As you say, SM haven't got the most formidable shooting power around but being able to drop what they do have where it's needed helps to amplify it by reducing the chance you lose your dudes before they shoot the scary stuff.

Against armies like yours and mine, a Drop Pod isn't so bad because it let's you swarm them in melee after they drop and we probably aren't using any hugely expensive or scary single units, but against armies that aren't as proficient in melee (ha!) or are inclined to expensive units they can really do damage.

I'm going on about the 2 main points that make ISM droppods unfair because this is a deep assaults thread and however loosely vanilla drop pods fit this threads theme and subject matter.

Kept telling people to shut up about drop pods but stupid is as stupid does, So I decided to take the bait change tack and tell people exctly how I feel about stupid broken ISM drop pods.

When Istarted this thread I intended dip in. Grab some opinions and take interested parties over to another thread to thrash out some usable rules.

Instead we're here doing what's wrong with drop pods.

I know their not the worst thing wrong with lmperial Space Marines but only a very silly person would use that as an excuse or defence for somthing.

Göring proably wasn't as evil as hitler, but he was still a sick nazi pile of crap who acted as an enabler to some of the worst atrocities against humanity that have ever been perpetrated during the history of this truly messed up planet.

I'll tell you what I'll do. Because we've moved all relevant information to this project, to another thread, I was gonna request they close this one.

But I'll leave it open till someone can give a couple of reasonable arguments as to why Codex: Imperial Space Marines is more fair and balanced than not. And I'll give my reasons why it isn't.

I'm gonna take a leep now and say no was got cack to say about ISM that would stand up to even the lightest level of scrutiny or cross examination.

So there's the invite let us hear the wisdom of the deluded

As for Adam. He has both Wolfen and Thunder Wolf Cavalry. Why?

Does he run them as a combination to get first turn charges?

He hasn't against me. In fact I did nor not know they could do that. Is it a formation buff? Let us know the mechanics behind it.

Oh, and in the Shed of Dread we could make sure he didnt have the legs for it. We've got table enough for 10ft X 10ft, and way, way, way more than enough scenery.

How far can they go, Do they get to infiltrate first?

Hmmm, infiltrate could be problematic.

well if we couldn't find a away to prevent it and it looked like using that tactic was screwing up the ballance, he'd stop using it, that's the kind of guy he is, the kind of guys and gals we all are.

Our group prefers an even playing field and a strong narative. It's about everyone having fun and playing their part in the story, not winning at any cost. Anyone who thinks the latter, is an idiot hwo hasn't bothered reading "the most important rule in Warhmmer 40K" caption.

If someone's clearly bummed out because they can't seem to get into the game, then core rule or not somthing's gotta change. I meen come on if you wouln't do that for a mate then you're no mate at all and a pretty gakky person in my book.

 Andross wrote:
I'm going on about the 2 main points that make ISM droppods unfair because this is a deep assaults thread and however loosely vanilla drop pods fit this threads theme and subject matter.

Kept telling people to shut up about drop pods but stupid is as stupid does, So I decided to take the bait change tack and tell people exctly how I feel about stupid broken ISM drop pods.

When Istarted this thread I intended dip in. Grab some opinions and take interested parties over to another thread to thrash out some usable rules.

Instead we're here doing what's wrong with drop pods.

I know their not the worst thing wrong with lmperial Space Marines but only a very silly person would use that as an excuse or defence for somthing.

Göring proably wasn't as evil as hitler, but he was still a sick nazi pile of crap who acted as an enabler to some of the worst atrocities against humanity that have ever been perpetrated during the history of this truly messed up planet.

I'll tell you what I'll do. Because we've moved all relevant information to this project, to another thread, I was gonna request they close this one.

But I'll leave it open till someone can give a couple of reasonable arguments as to why Codex: Imperial Space Marines is more fair and balanced than not. And I'll give my reasons why it isn't.

I'm gonna take a leep now and say no was got cack to say about ISM that would stand up to even the lightest level of scrutiny or cross examination.

So there's the invite let us hear the wisdom of the deluded

As for Adam. He has both Wolfen and Thunder Wolf Cavalry. Why?

Ok so if we are to jump back at the topic at hand, we are looking at the "Deep assault."

Can you just once more for my sanity, and clarity, shortly clarify what entails a deep assault? As of now, it seems mostly like rules for assaulting outta deep strike no?

Yes basically. If you want clarication on actual rules they are being discused and developed in the thread "deep assault and dedicated overwatch fan rules".

That's where we've moved this topic, as this thread was a resource to.

A. Gauge peoples interest in this topic.

B. To gather those people with positive veiws on the topic to develop a work ing set of rules.

I'll probably be abandoning this tread soon as I feel it has served the purpose I intended it to and I think I've got all information I need from it.

As I said all the action's over on the other thread now.

Right on in which case I would suggest you request this thread locked.

It's best to try to consolidate threads so your not splitting the discussion.

how do I make sutch a request I'm fairly new hear?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is,

Still remember the disgusted faces of my friends when in 3.5 Ed they had 2 units of Bloodletters coming out of Summoning, then assault ( and i'm talking real beefy man beef cake Bloodletters, not to stringy anorexic excuses for Daemons that we have now, the kind of Bloodletters that had T4 3+ armor and 4 A Init 5, and would piledrive Terminators into the ground with their AP 2 blades).

So yeah i perfectly understand that the rules works like they do now.

What i dislike is that Scout units cannot assault the turn after their move, its what they are supposed to do, but hey, its the same for everyone.

Personnaly i like Drop pods, i just like when a SM player comes in with a full Pod list versus..., my KDK, i don't even have to move!, its Home delivery boys!!!

Never lost a game vs a Pod list, its just too easy to assault them 1st turn.

Plus if you see a guy with Pods, just take as much space as you can with your units to negate him any safe landing zones, just leave a few inches in the back at the border of the table, so that if he tries to put the pod it gets out the table and mishap, and for the rest just put cheap chaff units around your vehicles so that he can't be in melta range, done, you've just fethed over all his battle plan, its not rocket science.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The problem is, a lot of people dont actually realize how powerful assaulting from deep strike is,

Still remember the disgusted faces of my friends when in 3.5 Ed they had 2 units of Bloodletters coming out of Summoning, then assault ( and i'm talking real beefy man beef cake Bloodletters, not to stringy anorexic excuses for Daemons that we have now, the kind of Bloodletters that had T4 3+ armor and 4 A Init 5, and would piledrive Terminators into the ground with their AP 2 blades).

So yeah i perfectly understand that the rules works like they do now.

What i dislike is that Scout units cannot assault the turn after their move, its what they are supposed to do, but hey, its the same for everyone.

Personnaly i like Drop pods, i just like when a SM player comes in with a full Pod list versus..., my KDK, i don't even have to move!, its Home delivery boys!!!

Never lost a game vs a Pod list, its just too easy to assault them 1st turn.

Plus if you see a guy with Pods, just take as much space as you can with your units to negate him any safe landing zones, just leave a few inches in the back at the border of the table, so that if he tries to put the pod it gets out the table and mishap, and for the rest just put cheap chaff units around your vehicles so that he can't be in melta range, done, you've just fethed over all his battle plan, its not rocket science.

To start with +1 Exaulted.
I'm surprised there aren't more people in this thread pointing out how easy it is to screw a Drop Pod with model placement alone.

I played several games years ago against a guy using a FW drop pod that allowed units to assault out of it. I guess this would have been end of 5th/beginning of 6th? Anyway, it just felt kinda cheesy most of the time. The problem isn't the idea of assaulting out of deep strike as much as it just sucks with the I go you go system and the way unit reactions work.

It would make more sense and be a lot more balanced in say a system more like bolt action/konflikt 47 where you have alternating activations and unit reactions to being assaulted. Just like an army capable of wiping out a significant portion of your army with shooting before you even get a turn isn't a good mechanic.

The idea is fine and actually makes a lot of sense, mechanically in the rules with 40k it's not something I'd want to see without some real work done on the base game though to make it actually fun to play with or against.