That's one of the things that just kills me with Electro priests any time they referenced in fluff (not often but it's happened) they are noted as extremely quick and agile as opposed to other tech priests. I know that Dragoons, ruststalkers and infiltrators already cover fast assault for Admech but atleast do the guys with lightning coursing through them the justice of being faster than a guardsman..
Can Anyone do the math on how hard it would be to put a wound on robot with with the dominus formation + IWND vs S5, S6, S7, S8 and S9?
With AP- and AP2 would be awesome!
For example a unit of 5 jetbikes with scatters vs bots and dominus.
20 shots = 15 hits
15 hits vs T7= 5 wounds
5 wounds = 1.666 failed armour saves
1.666 = 1.2 wounds taken after FNP - it gets tricky from after here so not sure of the math*
0.9 wounds taken after IWND + the 2 plus chance to negate that wound.
So by that, it would take 15 scatter bikes to kill one robot before IWND / dominus 2+ restore a wound rolls? Thats pretty baller.
Especially as it doesnt take into account tanking wounds on the datasmith and dominus.
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
It does open up some tactical considerations. If running Volkite, it will be favorable to give up one Kastellan's worth of split fire to instead utilize said Volkite against GEQ enemies. If running Eradication, use it when the enemy clumps in cover against the massed shooting of the Cohort.
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
Do the characters have to give up all shooting or one shooting attack, as the Dominus can fire multiple weapons.
Fun little nugget: a Plasma Obliterator in the WD formation loses gets hot. As a blast weapon, you no longer run the possibility of having a 16% chance of not firing!
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
Do the characters have to give up all shooting or one shooting attack, as the Dominus can fire multiple weapons.
Dunno, leaks right now are all in German. I'd imagine he'd have to forgo all of his shooting, though.
Enigwolf wrote:Fun little nugget: a Plasma Obliterator in the WD formation loses gets hot. As a blast weapon, you no longer run the possibility of having a 16% chance of not firing!
Exergy wrote: It will not die only happens at the beginning of your turn right?
So only once per two combat phases and 1 shooting phase per model.
Can't recall. Only included it because it was asked for. The hits to kill number is most important to me. That number, divided by %chance to hit dependent upon BS, gives an accurate threat assessment of enemy models. The IWND factors the value of any single wound per game turn.
Im loving that bot formation, a definite auto include in my list as I feel it gives skitarii something they SORELY need...first game turn sustainability when going second, and long range anti jetbike/ heavy infantry.
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
Do the characters have to give up all shooting or one shooting attack, as the Dominus can fire multiple weapons.
Dunno, leaks right now are all in German. I'd imagine he'd have to forgo all of his shooting, though.
I have my codex already - I believe the wording was "Instead of shooting"
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
Do the characters have to give up all shooting or one shooting attack, as the Dominus can fire multiple weapons.
Dunno, leaks right now are all in German. I'd imagine he'd have to forgo all of his shooting, though.
I have my codex already - I believe the wording was "Instead of shooting"
Now then, the REAL question is - does this mean that the Dominus cannot use his Harness to heal a wound if he allows a Robot to split fire? It's not a shooting attack, but it's his "shooting action" so to speak.
Enigwolf wrote:Fun little nugget: a Plasma Obliterator in the WD formation loses gets hot. As a blast weapon, you no longer run the possibility of having a 16% chance of not firing!
Still not as good as Grav though.
True, but grav doesn't have 72" or a Massive blast, nor is it a primary weapon to roll 2 dice for pen.
Enigwolf wrote: Jesus. That formation is so tanky and painful...
Apparently the codex held a little nugget about it: in order to give a robot split fire, one of the Datasmiths or the Dominus has to give up shooting. So if you have a min formation, to shoot 4 different units with Robots none of the Characters can shoot.
Not a bad trade for the Datasmiths, since they're not really shooting powerhouses, but often you'll probably not want to give up the Volkite or Eradicator on the Dominus.
Do the characters have to give up all shooting or one shooting attack, as the Dominus can fire multiple weapons.
Dunno, leaks right now are all in German. I'd imagine he'd have to forgo all of his shooting, though.
I have my codex already - I believe the wording was "Instead of shooting"
Now then, the REAL question is - does this mean that the Dominus cannot use his Harness to heal a wound if he allows a Robot to split fire? It's not a shooting attack, but it's his "shooting action" so to speak.
I would assume not. To use his harness, he has to trade one shooting attack. Redirecting shots replaces your ability to even shoot.
Well to be fair if every other bot is split firing, one can fire at the original target and still free up the Dominus to repair and shoot one of his guns if needed
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well to be fair if every other bot is split firing, one can fire at the original target and still free up the Dominus to repair and shoot one of his guns if needed
Depends on how many bots and how many characters you have. The base loadout is 4 bots, 2 Datasmiths, and 1 Dominus. If you want all of the Robots to fire at different targets each, you need to have all of the Characters forgo their shooting. If you only want half, then the Dominus is fine to do his thing.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well to be fair if every other bot is split firing, one can fire at the original target and still free up the Dominus to repair and shoot one of his guns if needed
Depends on how many bots and how many characters you have. The base loadout is 4 bots, 2 Datasmiths, and 1 Dominus. If you want all of the Robots to fire at different targets each, you need to have all of the Characters forgo their shooting. If you only want half, then the Dominus is fine to do his thing.
4 bots is only 12 TL shots and 12 non TL shots. Splitting it is valuable, but quartering it will often be too much.
Now if you maxed the bots but did not add more datasmiths.... you could have 12?! bots, and that would vaporize just about anything. Require lots of split fire.
Query, what would be more valuable... x2 icarus array dunecrawlers or 20 omnispec stock vanguard? The Icarus crawlers would be my only dedicated source of AA, aside from maybe cognis robots, but 20 vanguard puts out A LOT of hurt...
gameandwatch wrote: Query, what would be more valuable... x2 icarus array dunecrawlers or 20 omnispec stock vanguard? The Icarus crawlers would be my only dedicated source of AA, aside from maybe cognis robots, but 20 vanguard puts out A LOT of hurt...
That ENTIRELY depends on the rest of the army composition. Very different units.
I'd front your next additions into further Vanguard. Your bodycount is sorely lacking. You may find yourself suffering somewhat against hordes, so ten man teams with no specials may be the way to go.
Enigwolf wrote: Get rid of the infiltrators and ruststalkers. Get a second squad of 3 dragoons and bulk up your Vanguards.
Unfortunately, I cannot see myself parting with my favorite little robot space ninjas, even though they aren't the best, I love the models. Really it is for me just whether or not to take the dunecrawlers. I have never really had much AA in any of my lists, has never been a big problem. But just last tournament there were a number of flyrant spam and FMC lists. And now with eldar and the crimson hunter formation, Im thinking the dunecrawlers are necessary...
So the destroyers getting heavy flamers for 5 points might actually be worth it. That over watch kills a lot of things that would assault them, even marines have to worry about that level of wounds.
Also definitely want to run them in units of 3, not having split fire kills the ability to take advantage of larger sizes and you it buffs. Also keeps them pod sized when you throw in one character
What do you guys think about the Holy Requisitioner formation? I'm making a 1250 points list with Skitarii and Cult and I wanted something fun to use from Cult, and I like the look of it.
Leth wrote:So the destroyers getting heavy flamers for 5 points might actually be worth it. That over watch kills a lot of things that would assault them, even marines have to worry about that level of wounds.
Also definitely want to run them in units of 3, not having split fire kills the ability to take advantage of larger sizes and you it buffs. Also keeps them pod sized when you throw in one character
They're cognis flamers, not heavy flamers, so unfortunately, not as good as I'd like them to be. Against MEQ, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 marines dead on average. Not that good.
Ir0njack wrote:I just thought of this but for arcguard would it be worth it to stick two arc pistols on the alpha?
Even if you could, you don't have the gunslinger ability that Cypher has that allows you to shoot both pistols multiple times. So all you're paying for is +1 attack for 2 pistols... which you already get with 1 pistol and a CCW.
Decay wrote:What do you guys think about the Holy Requisitioner formation? I'm making a 1250 points list with Skitarii and Cult and I wanted something fun to use from Cult, and I like the look of it.
The problem is losing one round's worth of shooting, and also hoping that your opponent doesn't just castle up around their objectives and prevent you from deepstriking. Your Dominus has to be placed within 6" of the objective to not scatter, and then the squad within 6" of him. That's tough to pull off if your opponent knows that that's coming.
Decay wrote: I'll just use the Elimination Maniple then, and take a Dominus with them.
Yeah... At this point in time that's the route I'm going with. The problem is that to take a Dominus with an Elimination Maniple (since its a full formation in itself), you need to take it as an Allied Detachment, a CM detachment, or CAD.
Ir0njack wrote:I just thought of this but for arcguard would it be worth it to stick two arc pistols on the alpha?
Even if you could, you don't have the gunslinger ability that Cypher has that allows you to shoot both pistols multiple times. So all you're paying for is +1 attack for 2 pistols... which you already get with 1 pistol and a CCW.
All models in 7th may shoot two pistols. This is common for Inferno pistols in Blood Angel drop pod rosters.
Unfortunately the Skitarii Ranged Weapons list says "may swap ranged weapon" so an Alpha may not use two pistols. (He may take any number of Melee Weapons tho there's little value.)
axisofentropy wrote: Is there any reason not to assemble Destroyers with grav and phosphor? My main army is Dark Angels so I have plasma and need grav so...
Ir0njack wrote:I just thought of this but for arcguard would it be worth it to stick two arc pistols on the alpha?
Even if you could, you don't have the gunslinger ability that Cypher has that allows you to shoot both pistols multiple times. So all you're paying for is +1 attack for 2 pistols... which you already get with 1 pistol and a CCW.
All models in 7th may shoot two pistols. This is common for Inferno pistols in Blood Angel drop pod rosters.
Unfortunately the Skitarii Ranged Weapons list says "may swap ranged weapon" so an Alpha may not use two pistols. (He may take any number of Melee Weapons tho there's little value.)
axisofentropy wrote: Is there any reason not to assemble Destroyers with grav and phosphor? My main army is Dark Angels so I have plasma and need grav so...
Ir0njack wrote:I just thought of this but for arcguard would it be worth it to stick two arc pistols on the alpha?
Even if you could, you don't have the gunslinger ability that Cypher has that allows you to shoot both pistols multiple times. So all you're paying for is +1 attack for 2 pistols... which you already get with 1 pistol and a CCW.
All models in 7th may shoot two pistols. This is common for Inferno pistols in Blood Angel drop pod rosters.
Unfortunately the Skitarii Ranged Weapons list says "may swap ranged weapon" so an Alpha may not use two pistols. (He may take any number of Melee Weapons tho there's little value.)
:O How have I never known this?!?!
Ah darn, you right. I missed that part. Well it was a cool idea atleast, that's what happen when you're building armies at like 3am heh.
Wingeds wrote: So can anyone foresee Rangers having any use? Or are Vanguard just leaps and bounds better than them in almost every respect?
Only thing I can think of is using them against GEQ or 4-5+ save models, sniping out special weapons (flamers mostly) before charges by other units.
Well, to make them useful, we have to use the stuff that Rangers do better than Vanguard -- Move Through Cover and 30" AP4 Precision Shot guns.
I'd certainly not take them in numbers anywhere near those of Vanguard. I'd take small squads (MSU maybe) of them, maybe with one Arquebus, and use them to sneak about in various ruins, grabbing objectives and taking potshots at squads, hoping to pick off important models/special weapons.
I'd avoid all specials except for the arquebus, because the plasma and arc get rid of the range benefit of the 30" guns.
Overall, they're not as versatile as vanguard, but they have their uses.
I'm not seeing any really top-tier competitive tournament builds for Skitarii/Cult Mech at the moment since the +1 BS Ignores Cover formation turned out to be a dud.
Skitarii/Flesh Tearers is still solid but functionally it really isn't very different from any other drop pod army.
They also can't handle decurion Necrons at the moment or Tyranid Malanthrope/FMC spam.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:I'm not seeing any really top-tier competitive tournament builds for Skitarii/Cult Mech at the moment since the +1 BS Ignores Cover formation turned out to be a dud.
Skitarii/Flesh Tearers is still solid but functionally it really isn't very different from any other drop pod army.
They also can't handle decurion Necrons at the moment or Tyranid Malanthrope/FMC spam.
The white dwarf formation could in an 1850 pts tournament just barely pass the mark of being able to fight on par with decrons, Fnids, and CWE. It requires a lot of thought to play the army well though so it would take a tireless player to win 9 games with it. Still if you can keep your wits about you this army could have an answer for everything.
One of the combos I saw when I read my codex for the cult mech is the cognis artifact put into a unit of heavy grav destroyers behind an ADL. This unit can GtG when fired upon getting a 2+ cover save on T5 W2 models, fire effectively against flyrants (averages 4 wounds without rerolls or jink) and can undo GtG using the fearless canticle thus getting back up when they need.
As for decurion the biggest thing to remember is that killing a spyder for skitarii or cult is trivial to manage. High toughness models are in some cases easier for them to kill than normal infantry. I think people are also currently underestimating powerfist kastelans, in a major way. These units are T7 3+ FnP, can have 2+ 4++ FnP tanks to bounce wounds off of and after a turn they can switch to having 5 attacks (4 base +1 two PF) with +1 for charge and +1-3 attacks for canticles. You are looking at a single kastelan putting out 8 Str 10 AP2 attacks a turn possibly with psychic powers to boost them if you brought an ally. It will be very hard for a decurion to effectively engage a bunch of T7 2+ 4++ FnP units (tank with the tech priest datasmith since crons tend to lack Str 8 AP2 shooting) backed up by T5 units that GtG or have shrouding +stealth for 2+ cover saves. The cult mech at least hits a lot of the weak points in the decurion army style. Funny enough it also hits a lot of weak points in the typical CWE netlist as scatbikes and wraithknights will find it difficult to survive return fire and hard to hurt these units when played well.
I can actually see (to a degree) why the white dwarf formation gave so many extreme bonuses to the formation as honestly the cult mech units function incredibly well with each other and adding skitarii to them is actually sort of a waste of pts. There just isn't much synergy between the armies and there is a lot of overlap, the only unit I really like from a combined perspective is cheap vanguard units to help fill flesh out the scoring ability of the cult mech. It would be a completely different thing if the skitarii had any ObjSec units or could even get anything ObjSec though.
Wingeds wrote: So can anyone foresee Rangers having any use? Or are Vanguard just leaps and bounds better than them in almost every respect?
Only thing I can think of is using them against GEQ or 4-5+ save models, sniping out special weapons (flamers mostly) before charges by other units.
Ever played against Khorne Daemonkin?
Rangers are great against them, since Precision Shots lets you choose who to allocate wounds to...meaning you can potentially leave a unit with just their champion, denying someone two Blood Tithe points.
Played a game today against my friend's Tau with me using the WD formation 1850 using the list i had posted a page back
Having an extra 500ish points of upgrades makes that formation fairly strong, he had told me he had actually tailored his list against mine with a crazy turn 2 beta strike Tau outflanking list.
So with the Skitarii and/or Cult formations (well I guess it would just apply to formations in general) you get JUST the units listed in the formation? Or could I say have a battle maniple and add another squad of vanguard in it?
I ask because I've honestly yet to play with any sort of formation with my IG. The Admech ones look appealing and I couldnt find the answer to this specific question anywhere.
Ir0njack wrote: So with the Skitarii and/or Cult formations (well I guess it would just apply to formations in general) you get JUST the units listed in the formation? Or could I say have a battle maniple and add another squad of vanguard in it?
I ask because I've honestly yet to play with any sort of formation with my IG. The Admech ones look appealing and I couldnt find the answer to this specific question anywhere.
You only get what the formation details...so in the case of the Skitarii formation you're talking about, you cannot add units. The Battle Maniple is literally one unit of everything (except Dragoons or Ballistarii being one or the other). The positive side is that the regular Skitarii Maniple requires two troops and you can add two additional squads that way.
Leth wrote:So the destroyers getting heavy flamers for 5 points might actually be worth it. That over watch kills a lot of things that would assault them, even marines have to worry about that level of wounds.
Also definitely want to run them in units of 3, not having split fire kills the ability to take advantage of larger sizes and you it buffs. Also keeps them pod sized when you throw in one character
They're cognis flamers, not heavy flamers, so unfortunately, not as good as I'd like them to be. Against MEQ, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 marines dead on average. Not that good.
Ir0njack wrote:I just thought of this but for arcguard would it be worth it to stick two arc pistols on the alpha?
Even if you could, you don't have the gunslinger ability that Cypher has that allows you to shoot both pistols multiple times. So all you're paying for is +1 attack for 2 pistols... which you already get with 1 pistol and a CCW.
Decay wrote:What do you guys think about the Holy Requisitioner formation? I'm making a 1250 points list with Skitarii and Cult and I wanted something fun to use from Cult, and I like the look of it.
The problem is losing one round's worth of shooting, and also hoping that your opponent doesn't just castle up around their objectives and prevent you from deepstriking. Your Dominus has to be placed within 6" of the objective to not scatter, and then the squad within 6" of him. That's tough to pull off if your opponent knows that that's coming.
On mine it says cognis flamers have the same stat line as heavy flamers....
I play tested a couple games today guys and have a lot of fun with the army however foot slogging definitely sucks especially with my Vanguard, lost my second game because they couldn't get to my opponent fast enough and got caught out in the open, even in train they couldn't stand up to hi fire power output armies. Anyone ever considered putting them in Razorbacks out of the BA Flesh Tearers formation or even ally them with the Militarium Tempestus book to put them in Taurox Primes? I mention those to specifically because they are fast vehicles and can get our guys closer quicker. I know drop pods are an excellent choice I just have had people complain that they aren't a fluffy choice.
gmaleron wrote: I play tested a couple games today guys and have a lot of fun with the army however foot slogging definitely sucks especially with my Vanguard, lost my second game because they couldn't get to my opponent fast enough and got caught out in the open, even in train they couldn't stand up to hi fire power output armies. Anyone ever considered putting them in Razorbacks out of the BA Flesh Tearers formation or even ally them with the Militarium Tempestus book to put them in Taurox Primes? I mention those to specifically because they are fast vehicles and can get our guys closer quicker. I know drop pods are an excellent choice I just don't think they are a very fluffy one.
I would do rhinos at that point for the fire points, however losing out on scout would be rough.
Ir0njack wrote: So with the Skitarii and/or Cult formations (well I guess it would just apply to formations in general) you get JUST the units listed in the formation? Or could I say have a battle maniple and add another squad of vanguard in it?
I ask because I've honestly yet to play with any sort of formation with my IG. The Admech ones look appealing and I couldnt find the answer to this specific question anywhere.
You only get what the formation details...so in the case of the Skitarii formation you're talking about, you cannot add units. The Battle Maniple is literally one unit of everything (except Dragoons or Ballistarii being one or the other). The positive side is that the regular Skitarii Maniple requires two troops and you can add two additional squads that way.
Ah so the regular Skitarii maniple gives the same benefits with the exception of datalock. I literally didn't not notice it until you pointed the regula maniple out Thanks!
Orock wrote: The kastellan robots flamers have torrent, seriously thinking about maiming those.
It's still just a normal flamer, though. Unless your meta is GEQ heavy, it's still not awfully useful compared to more AP3 shots. If it was a heavy flamer with torrent, on the other hand, it'd solve a lot of problems with castling Tau/Eldar armies.
So me and some mates came to the realisation that between us we can field that Mechanicus War Convocation formation from White Dwarf, and we're gonna give it a go (I'm bringing the Knight). It seems pretty powerful with all that free wargear, but without really knowing anything about Skitarri or Mechanicus codex I'm not really sure whats the best way to go about. I assume loading up on Plasma is the way to go since you can't Get's Hot?
I have been trying to make it work, and while the free stuff can be powerful you only have about 400 points or so of additional models that you can buy, and that is either to bulk out skitarii squads, buy a knight, or 1-2 mechanicus units. While the free upgrades are nice you just dont get any of the redundency that you need for an army like this to work, as well as you are forgoing allies if you want to bulk up the units to useable sizes.
I found that I was burning more points in models that I didnt see myself using than I was getting in meaningful upgrades.
Rather have access to two dominus and objective secured.
GoonBandito wrote: So me and some mates came to the realisation that between us we can field that Mechanicus War Convocation formation from White Dwarf, and we're gonna give it a go (I'm bringing the Knight). It seems pretty powerful with all that free wargear, but without really knowing anything about Skitarri or Mechanicus codex I'm not really sure whats the best way to go about. I assume loading up on Plasma is the way to go since you can't Get's Hot?
The standard thinking is to take Plasma on the unit of vanguard, because of its costs otherwise and the no gets hot. The Destroyers though I would still field with grav. The rangers I am going to be using with aquebuses, as rangers within 18" of things tend to die rather quickly and without the radium i dont see the use in having them that close.
For the rust stalkers/infiltrators you are going to want to use your first canticle first turn. Deploy them out of LOS and then try to harry something. For me they are the chaff of the list, but with the free relics and wargear on the primes I can see getting some use out of them.
The rest of the army is very shooty. Try to keep your destroyers alive in cover or behind your robots. As to whether you take a sniper dragoon or a charging dragon is your preference, but remember 1 of either is unlikey to do much.
I was really looking forward to using the Cybernetica Cohort, but someone over on B&C has pointed out that GW have cacked their pants again over the wording of the special rule.
As-written, you can actually have two Protocols active at the same time; in the normal protocol rule it states that one protocol replaces another when they activate at the start of your turn, and the Mask relic specifically uses that same wording, but the Cohort rules state that you can choose a protocol at the end of your turn and it will "take effect" immediately. Nowhere is there wording which implies it overrides the standard rules for when one protocol replaces another, meaning strict RAW if lets say you had the shooty protocol active, you could choose the FNP protocol at the end of your turn and have it take effect immediately, so you would have FNP AND shooty active in your enemy's turn, but the FNP would not actually replace shooty until the start of your next turn.
Great, so at pick-up games unless I can persuade the opponent to just ignore that rule altogether, I either have to accept the common non-RAW reading of the rule and end up with protocol rules that are actually worse for the formation than 'bots outside of it, or I have to be TFG and make a really pedantic argument to gain a minor advantage.
I was really looking forward to using the Cybernetica Cohort, but someone over on B&C has pointed out that GW have cacked their pants again over the wording of the special rule.
As-written, you can actually have two Protocols active at the same time; in the normal protocol rule it states that one protocol replaces another when they activate at the start of your turn, and the Mask relic specifically uses that same wording, but the Cohort rules state that you can choose a protocol at the end of your turn and it will "take effect" immediately. Nowhere is there wording which implies it overrides the standard rules for when one protocol replaces another, meaning strict RAW if lets say you had the shooty protocol active, you could choose the FNP protocol at the end of your turn and have it take effect immediately, so you would have FNP AND shooty active in your enemy's turn, but the FNP would not actually replace shooty until the start of your next turn.
Great, so at pick-up games unless I can persuade the opponent to just ignore that rule altogether, I either have to accept the common non-RAW reading of the rule and end up with protocol rules that are actually worse for the formation than 'bots outside of it, or I have to be TFG and make a really pedantic argument to gain a minor advantage.
How do the rules make the formation worse if you read it in the non-RAW reading?
I was really looking forward to using the Cybernetica Cohort, but someone over on B&C has pointed out that GW have cacked their pants again over the wording of the special rule.
As-written, you can actually have two Protocols active at the same time; in the normal protocol rule it states that one protocol replaces another when they activate at the start of your turn, and the Mask relic specifically uses that same wording, but the Cohort rules state that you can choose a protocol at the end of your turn and it will "take effect" immediately. Nowhere is there wording which implies it overrides the standard rules for when one protocol replaces another, meaning strict RAW if lets say you had the shooty protocol active, you could choose the FNP protocol at the end of your turn and have it take effect immediately, so you would have FNP AND shooty active in your enemy's turn, but the FNP would not actually replace shooty until the start of your next turn.
Great, so at pick-up games unless I can persuade the opponent to just ignore that rule altogether, I either have to accept the common non-RAW reading of the rule and end up with protocol rules that are actually worse for the formation than 'bots outside of it, or I have to be TFG and make a really pedantic argument to gain a minor advantage.
How do the rules make the formation worse if you read it in the non-RAW reading?
Yea, I am failing to see how the non raw wording of you have one go off immediately at the end of your turn is worse... Still raw it actually makes the maniple pretty boss as you can stagger the abilities.
I was really looking forward to using the Cybernetica Cohort, but someone over on B&C has pointed out that GW have cacked their pants again over the wording of the special rule.
As-written, you can actually have two Protocols active at the same time; in the normal protocol rule it states that one protocol replaces another when they activate at the start of your turn, and the Mask relic specifically uses that same wording, but the Cohort rules state that you can choose a protocol at the end of your turn and it will "take effect" immediately. Nowhere is there wording which implies it overrides the standard rules for when one protocol replaces another, meaning strict RAW if lets say you had the shooty protocol active, you could choose the FNP protocol at the end of your turn and have it take effect immediately, so you would have FNP AND shooty active in your enemy's turn, but the FNP would not actually replace shooty until the start of your next turn.
Great, so at pick-up games unless I can persuade the opponent to just ignore that rule altogether, I either have to accept the common non-RAW reading of the rule and end up with protocol rules that are actually worse for the formation than 'bots outside of it, or I have to be TFG and make a really pedantic argument to gain a minor advantage.
How do the rules make the formation worse if you read it in the non-RAW reading?
Yea, I am failing to see how the non raw wording of you have one go off immediately at the end of your turn is worse... Still raw it actually makes the maniple pretty boss as you can stagger the abilities.
If you go with the interpretation that the Cohort chooses a new protocol and it immediately replaces the previous one, it means that if you switch to, for example, shooty protocols when you reach the middle of the board, you will lose your FNP for the entire enemy turn at the moment it will probably be most useful.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I'm not seeing any really top-tier competitive tournament builds for Skitarii/Cult Mech at the moment since the +1 BS Ignores Cover formation turned out to be a dud.
Skitarii/Flesh Tearers is still solid but functionally it really isn't very different from any other drop pod army.
They also can't handle decurion Necrons at the moment or Tyranid Malanthrope/FMC spam.
How was the Elimination Maniple a "dud"? It was meant to be Eldar bike-spam buster, and it is. Your Kastellan's WILL inflict a wound, unless all math abandons you, and at that point your Kataphron Destroyers (hell, even one of the two in the formation), will easily wipe the bike unit off the table. One round of shooting should take out the biggest threat your army is inclined to face.
Can you guys help me make a 1250pts list with what has been said? Or should I post this on Lists? I've already got around 600 points of Skitarii, but I wanted a list that was mainly Cult and still preformed well in battle.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I'm not seeing any really top-tier competitive tournament builds for Skitarii/Cult Mech at the moment since the +1 BS Ignores Cover formation turned out to be a dud.
Skitarii/Flesh Tearers is still solid but functionally it really isn't very different from any other drop pod army.
They also can't handle decurion Necrons at the moment or Tyranid Malanthrope/FMC spam.
How was the Elimination Maniple a "dud"? It was meant to be Eldar bike-spam buster, and it is. Your Kastellan's WILL inflict a wound, unless all math abandons you, and at that point your Kataphron Destroyers (hell, even one of the two in the formation), will easily wipe the bike unit off the table. One round of shooting should take out the biggest threat your army is inclined to face.
The problem is that the bikes are probably MSU. So your Kastellans fire at BS3, the bikes might be in cover or jink. They get full cover against your Kastellans, but you do a wound. Then you have to fire with another unit to actually kill them at BS4 ignores cover. So you are using 2 units to kill 1 bike unit. That is pretty good when there are 10 bikes, but there is no reason to have 10 bikes. Instead of 3 units of 10 bikes, how about 10 units of 3 bikes. At which point the Elimination Maniple is a total dud against it.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I'm not seeing any really top-tier competitive tournament builds for Skitarii/Cult Mech at the moment since the +1 BS Ignores Cover formation turned out to be a dud.
Skitarii/Flesh Tearers is still solid but functionally it really isn't very different from any other drop pod army.
They also can't handle decurion Necrons at the moment or Tyranid Malanthrope/FMC spam.
How was the Elimination Maniple a "dud"? It was meant to be Eldar bike-spam buster, and it is. Your Kastellan's WILL inflict a wound, unless all math abandons you, and at that point your Kataphron Destroyers (hell, even one of the two in the formation), will easily wipe the bike unit off the table. One round of shooting should take out the biggest threat your army is inclined to face.
The problem is that the bikes are probably MSU. So your Kastellans fire at BS3, the bikes might be in cover or jink. They get full cover against your Kastellans, but you do a wound. Then you have to fire with another unit to actually kill them at BS4 ignores cover. So you are using 2 units to kill 1 bike unit. That is pretty good when there are 10 bikes, but there is no reason to have 10 bikes. Instead of 3 units of 10 bikes, how about 10 units of 3 bikes. At which point the Elimination Maniple is a total dud against it.
Yup. CM is starting to feel like a book with a lot of overkill in a meta that values MSU. Great against Deathstars, less efficient against a lot of the rest.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I'm not seeing any really top-tier competitive tournament builds for Skitarii/Cult Mech at the moment since the +1 BS Ignores Cover formation turned out to be a dud.
Skitarii/Flesh Tearers is still solid but functionally it really isn't very different from any other drop pod army.
They also can't handle decurion Necrons at the moment or Tyranid Malanthrope/FMC spam.
How was the Elimination Maniple a "dud"? It was meant to be Eldar bike-spam buster, and it is. Your Kastellan's WILL inflict a wound, unless all math abandons you, and at that point your Kataphron Destroyers (hell, even one of the two in the formation), will easily wipe the bike unit off the table. One round of shooting should take out the biggest threat your army is inclined to face.
The problem is that the bikes are probably MSU. So your Kastellans fire at BS3, the bikes might be in cover or jink. They get full cover against your Kastellans, but you do a wound. Then you have to fire with another unit to actually kill them at BS4 ignores cover. So you are using 2 units to kill 1 bike unit. That is pretty good when there are 10 bikes, but there is no reason to have 10 bikes. Instead of 3 units of 10 bikes, how about 10 units of 3 bikes. At which point the Elimination Maniple is a total dud against it.
I say this sincerely not knowing the Eldar FOC options... but what formation lets them field 10 MSU of anything? At that point, if they have abused multiple CAD, etc... just to do that, I would either expect a TO to reign in that kind of abuse. And if not... well, Ad-Mech (both Skitarii and Cult) have enough threatening shooting to wipe out, or force Jink on most of those. The volume of Omnispex, Lumingen, possible allied Auspex on common allies, etc... still renders the most typical Eldar net-lists moot.
Decay wrote: Can you guys help me make a 1250pts list with what has been said? Or should I post this on Lists? I've already got around 600 points of Skitarii, but I wanted a list that was mainly Cult and still preformed well in battle.
My problem with Kataphrons is that there are other units which perform the same task but better.
With grav, Centurions are arguably better. Grav Amp + better BS. BS 3 really kills these guys for me.
With plasma, I would much rather have Leman Russ Executioners with plasma sponsons. Especially if I take them from the Steel Host and make them my HQ tanks. That gives the unit split fire and PE. For someone who already has lots of LR tanks and likes to field them, this seems like a better option compared to Kataphrons.
One option could be the Deep Strike formation with the heavy arc rifles to take out enemy vehicles easily, but then again can still be done just as well with Arc Vanguard in a pod.
So unless I really need Grav for whatever reason, what reason do I have to take Kataphrons? Like I said before, the BS3 is a huge negative with these guys. I play guard so I know how bad BS3 can screw you over.
If you're taking Breachers, I'd go with Torsion Cannons and take the Relic Scryerskull on the Magos; they mathhammer out about the same against vehicles as Heavy Arc but are far more effective against MCs.
ultimentra wrote: My problem with Kataphrons is that there are other units which perform the same task but better.
With grav, Centurions are arguably better. Grav Amp + better BS. BS 3 really kills these guys for me.
With plasma, I would much rather have Leman Russ Executioners with plasma sponsons. Especially if I take them from the Steel Host and make them my HQ tanks. That gives the unit split fire and PE. For someone who already has lots of LR tanks and likes to field them, this seems like a better option compared to Kataphrons.
One option could be the Deep Strike formation with the heavy arc rifles to take out enemy vehicles easily, but then again can still be done just as well with Arc Vanguard in a pod.
So unless I really need Grav for whatever reason, what reason do I have to take Kataphrons? Like I said before, the BS3 is a huge negative with these guys. I play guard so I know how bad BS3 can screw you over.
Then dont use them if theyre terrible in your mind. If you want to run a cult mech list, you have to use a flavor of kataphron if you want to build at the very least their base detacthment
Yes centurions are better bs/armor/grav amps, they also cost 25 points more and are a heavy support slot whereas kataphrons are troops. I should hope costing more points makes a unit better so its an invalid comparison.
And since when is a vehicle comparable to a troop? But anyways, that tank by itself is 185 points for 5 36 inch range small blasts, compared to 6 24 inch small blasts at 24 inches. Both bs 3. So an extra 25 points for one tank, armor 14 true but only 3 HP compared to 6 wounds on the kataphron squad.
Centurions also have 6'' less range, one less shot, their secondary weapon options don't have the potential to reduce enemy cover, they can't overwatch, they re-roll to wound and vehicle damage, have better armor, etc etc. A world of differences.
I say this sincerely not knowing the Eldar FOC options... but what formation lets them field 10 MSU of anything? At that point, if they have abused multiple CAD, etc... just to do that, I would either expect a TO to reign in that kind of abuse. And if not... well, Ad-Mech (both Skitarii and Cult) have enough threatening shooting to wipe out, or force Jink on most of those. The volume of Omnispex, Lumingen, possible allied Auspex on common allies, etc... still renders the most typical Eldar net-lists moot.
Is running 2 detachments cheese? Jetbikes are troops. They can take 6 units of them in a standard combined arms detachment. instead of 3 units of 10, 6 units of 5. It is hard to call that abuse unless you think just taking jetbikes at all is abuse.
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Yodhrin wrote: If you're taking Breachers, I'd go with Torsion Cannons and take the Relic Scryerskull on the Magos; they mathhammer out about the same against vehicles as Heavy Arc but are far more effective against MCs.
It really depends on the vehicle. Even with reroll, Torsion Cannons will have trouble against AV14. On the other hand, Torsion Cannons will do better against AV10 because they can get 'explodes' results
Automatically Appended Next Post:
obsidiankatana wrote: Centurions also have 6'' less range, one less shot, their secondary weapon options don't have the potential to reduce enemy cover, they can't overwatch, they re-roll to wound and vehicle damage, have better armor, etc etc. A world of differences.
+ ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics
One of these days your Destroyers will take 2 wounds and fail their LD test. Centurions never do that.
I see a dominus attached to a squad of breachers with torsion cannons (a unit of 5-6) as a nasty little ministar. Give him the cognis relic, and they threaten basically everything, even flyers.
That unit also becomes and amusing anti-deathstar as well. Torsion cannons are fantastic for multiple multi-wound models, can double out things like paladins, or have a 66% chance to instant kill thunderwolves and centurions if a shot gets through. They aren't slouches in CC either.
I have the Breachers in my list, because I only have 3 arc rifle Vanguard, so I'm unsure about that. I also was not sure where the Dominus was going, probably with the Destroyers or Breachers because of the Cognis relic.
gameandwatch wrote: I see a dominus attached to a squad of breachers with torsion cannons (a unit of 5-6) as a nasty little ministar. Give him the cognis relic, and they threaten basically everything, even flyers.
That unit also becomes and amusing anti-deathstar as well. Torsion cannons are fantastic for multiple multi-wound models, can double out things like paladins, or have a 66% chance to instant kill thunderwolves and centurions if a shot gets through. They aren't slouches in CC either.
That is a 450 point unit that will average 3 hits a turn.
gameandwatch wrote: I see a dominus attached to a squad of breachers with torsion cannons (a unit of 5-6) as a nasty little ministar. Give him the cognis relic, and they threaten basically everything, even flyers.
That unit also becomes and amusing anti-deathstar as well. Torsion cannons are fantastic for multiple multi-wound models, can double out things like paladins, or have a 66% chance to instant kill thunderwolves and centurions if a shot gets through. They aren't slouches in CC either.
That is a 450 point unit that will average 3 hits a turn.
With the reroll shooting attacks canticle, they fair much better.
Wow, didn't expect all the hate for my criticisms of Kataphrons as a unit. Excuse me for trying to discuss relevant tactics in a tactics thread. This may be an Admech thread but allies exist, people need to stop living in 5th ed wonderland. All the other threads where a faction is discussed people talk about allies.
The Troops vs Heavy Support argument doesn't hold water in a world of multiple detachments, formations, and everything scoring. The time it does is when the Kataphrons are in a CAD getting Obsec, and even then this bonus is relatively situational IMO.
My point in comparing Kataphrons to units that perform the same task (maybe not with the same stat line, or classification, or points cost) is to see what is a better choice bang for buck. People are going to do this any ways so why not discuss it? Or would you rather bury your head in the sand?
I am going to say that given the Mechanicus (in its two books) is an IoM army, and has access to the most battle brother allies of any faction aside from other IoM, the options that CM gives to a Skitarii Army, or running them as a Primary with allies leaves something to be desired on paper. Aside from the Kastellan formation which will soak up wounds and dish them out, I don't really see any reason to take the army at all if someone is looking to min/max. We all know Skitarii are good and have some amazing combos. I just don't see that in CM aside from the Kastellan formation and maybe the Elimination Maniple.
They're not relevant tactics, they stop being 'Tactica Mechanicas" as soon as you go "But X unit is better"
We're discussing the ad mech units and tactics using those units in a list, its pointless to bring up "But x is better" as it serves no purpose to the point of this thread
Yes allies are nice, but Centurions and Leman Russes have already existed, we know what they do.
Kataphrons are brand new, and pardon on trying to think on how to use those actual units for Mechanicus tactics. Bring up unrelated units does nothing for that discussion
And not everyone wishes to discuss min/maxing, nor cares
I come to a mechanicus thread to discuss tactics for mechanius units, not another conversation about Centurions in drop pods
TLDR: Saying X unit is better is not at all helpful when trying to discuss units for the mechanicum and trying to play them.
WrentheFaceless wrote: They're not relevant tactics, they stop being 'Tactica Mechanicas" as soon as you go "But X unit is better"
We're discussing the ad mech units and tactics using those units in a list, its pointless to bring up "But x is better" as it serves no purpose to the point of this thread
Yes allies are nice, but Centurions and Leman Russes have already existed, we know what they do.
Kataphrons are brand new, and pardon on trying to think on how to use those actual units for Mechanicus tactics. Bring up unrelated units does nothing for that discussion
And not everyone wishes to discuss min/maxing, nor cares
I come to a mechanicus thread to discuss tactics for mechanius units, not another conversation about Centurions in drop pods
TLDR: Saying X unit is better is not at all helpful when trying to discuss units for the mechanicum and trying to play them.
Additionally, some of us like to play a Mechanicus army because.. Well, we're Mechanicus fans and we have other armies for winning tournaments/don't particularly care about winning with it (Elysians, I'm looking at you.)
Good to see that a couple people here in the tactics section care more for burying their head in the sand than actual tactics and looking at the big picture in 40k. Maybe they ought to change the name of the thread to "Tactica Mechanicus (mechanicus units only, no allies, only fluffy builds/combos allowed. Don't talk about min/maxing units either."
Also, if you want to say that you don't like the idea of min/maxing, technically speaking taking min units of grav Kataphrons is min/maxing by definition within the army because of MSU and Canticles. Tread carefully lest you wander into the realm of hypocrisy.
ultimentra wrote: Good to see that a couple people here in the tactics section care more for burying their head in the sand than actual tactics and looking at the big picture in 40k. Maybe they ought to change the name of the thread to "Tactica Mechanicus (mechanicus units only, no allies, only fluffy builds/combos allowed. Don't talk about min/maxing units either."
Also, if you want to say that you don't like the idea of min/maxing, technically speaking taking min units of grav Kataphrons is min/maxing by definition within the army because of MSU and Canticles. Tread carefully lest you wander into the realm of hypocrisy.
Good to see you continuing to miss the point. We're not here to discuss tactics about other units, we're here to discuss Ad Mech unit tactics. How about we discuss how well the units work before conversations about "X unit is better, why dont you use Y allies" That serves no purpose and if you'd rather use those units, play those armies.
Its hardly min/maxing taking a squad as designed by the codex constraints. Hardly hypocrisy if you're playing it as its written without game-breaking ally combos or cheese
I'm not going to go into a space marine thread and tell a guy asking about attack bikes "Hur dur jetbikes are better"
How about instead of automatically dismissing a unit because another unit is hypothetically better, how about you try to discuss how a unit can work? Yknow, Tactics, using Ad Mech units. In a Ad Mech tactics thread. Heresy I know, but it shouldnt be that hard for you, unless all you see is stuff TFG would see.
ultimentra wrote: Good to see that a couple people here in the tactics section care more for burying their head in the sand than actual tactics and looking at the big picture in 40k. Maybe they ought to change the name of the thread to "Tactica Mechanicus (mechanicus units only, no allies, only fluffy builds/combos allowed. Don't talk about min/maxing units either."
Also, if you want to say that you don't like the idea of min/maxing, technically speaking taking min units of grav Kataphrons is min/maxing by definition within the army because of MSU and Canticles. Tread carefully lest you wander into the realm of hypocrisy.
Good to see you continuing to miss the point. We're not here to discuss tactics about other units, we're here to discuss Ad Mech unit tactics. How about we discuss how well the units work before conversations about "X unit is better, why dont you use Y allies" That serves no purpose and if you'd rather use those units, play those armies.
Its hardly min/maxing taking a squad as designed by the codex constraints. Hardly hypocrisy if you're playing it as its written without game-breaking ally combos or cheese
How about instead of automatically dismissing a unit because another unit is hypothetically better, how about you try to discuss how a unit can work? Yknow, Tactics, using Ad Mech units. In a Ad Mech tactics thread. Heresy I know, but it shouldnt be that hard for you, unless all you see is stuff TFG would see.
Keep it kosher guys. As well, let's not jump the gun with regards to the validity of comparing the Ad Mech units, to other units in other codices as that is part of determining the "tactics" for using such units. Now (and this is not saying this is what was said) labeling something as unusable without testing, or "these do that better" is no way to discuss it either. With that out of the way, back to the topic.
Grav centurions vs grav destroyers is an interesting debate, as they have on par accuracy to each other (canticles vs twin linking and such) one has higher firepower, both have good support units. I will agree that since they are not Obsec, the troops vs heavy is moot to a point, where the troops vs heavy comes into play though is that a really good unit is also a tax unit (destroyers) where as a really good unit needs tax units (tacticals or scouts for centurions). Both have nearly equal stats (marines having better general stats). Where I think grav destroyers gets terrifying though is that they are a spammable unit unlike the usually 1 per army cent squad. MOST of the time, cent squads are part of mini-stars or deathstars, where as Ad Mech can just spam the f*** out of the destroyers and have an entire army with crazy amounts of grav. I think that is where destroyers will come into their own as unlike the centstar, which usually rolls with invisibilty, destroyers have safety in numbers and force your opponent to face a literal WALL of grav.
Ugg, just the thought of facing 72 grav shots in an alpha strike from just 4 min squads...does not sound appealing hahahaha
Ugg, just the thought of face 72 grav shots in an alpha strike from just 4 min squads...does not sound appealing hahahaha
The problem is that 4 things melt, and then nothing else. I wish GW gave a way for the Kataphrons to split-fire too, via formation. Also, I find it weird that servitors can fail morale checks and fall back... I thought these things were programmed with entire chunks of their cortex removed...
Ugg, just the thought of face 72 grav shots in an alpha strike from just 4 min squads...does not sound appealing hahahaha
The problem is that 4 things melt, and then nothing else. I wish GW gave a way for the Kataphrons to split-fire too, via formation. Also, I find it weird that servitors can fail morale checks and fall back... I thought these things were programmed with entire chunks of their cortex removed...
I'm glad they don't have Split Fire. That would be way too powerful. Balance means that something really strong has to have situations where it's not great, like a unit that fires 18 Grav shots baseline on durable bodies should be bad against MSU at the very least.
Ugg, just the thought of face 72 grav shots in an alpha strike from just 4 min squads...does not sound appealing hahahaha
The problem is that 4 things melt, and then nothing else. I wish GW gave a way for the Kataphrons to split-fire too, via formation. Also, I find it weird that servitors can fail morale checks and fall back... I thought these things were programmed with entire chunks of their cortex removed...
Weeeeellllllll, you could say the same about Necrons for fearless... As far as split fire goes, yeah it is a bit silly that a unit that can be 12 models, 6 shots per model, cannot split fire. As far as them only melting 4 things, remember that 4 min units is only 660 points, which means you could have 8 units for 1320 points or even just 6 for 990, which gives you enough room for a dominus and the kastelan formation. Not high in model numbers or wounds, but man that alpha or beta strike is just...so silly
Yea...grav kataphron and haywire are the way to go. Math hammer is all well and good until you bring range into the equation. 30 inches put them outside the threat range for charges from most units, puts them outside conventional shooting range for a lot of guns and also makes it much more likely to get a shot on the first turn. Same with the haywire breachers, range 36 on a haywire gun means that they can get a lot of shots in instead of basically being a sacrifice squad like the skitarii are. Combining all of this with objective secured and you have a very solid unit. 150 or 165 for the unit is a small price to pay. Now bringing in allies and the like will definitely help but outside of transports there is nothing that the mechanicus really needs to function, they cover all of the bases pretty well and have a solid amount of fire power.
Personally I am planning on taking two squads of Breachers and two squads of Destroyers just because I love the models. along with the fact that I think that they are strong unit especially with their range, toughness 5 an amount of shots they can put down range. BS3 is much less of a problem when you have that many shots, accuracy by volume.
An idea that I have been thinking of is an MSU style army of Dragoons and Iron Striders backed up by those units of Kataphrons. I know the Dune Crawlers are better than the Iron Striders by far, however I do feel they have their place. thinking of running x4 squads of 3 Dragoons and x2 squads of Iron Striders supported by Vanguard and Kataphrons. the idea with this army is to be super fast and get in your opponent's face right off the bat with your Dragoons while you have plenty of fire support in the back laying down a wall of fire softening up targets before they charge. Thoughts?
If your gonna run that many might as well run the formation. Personally I think the ironstriders. Work best as 1 or 2 man harassment units, minimal points investment but still have to be dealt with
Decay wrote: I would still like some help on my list, please, I don't know what to do other than ditch the Breachers.
Are you expecting us to put together the rest of your list for you? I hate to be a jerk about it, but its hard for us to do that without knowing what models you have/how much more you're willing to spend, your playstyle, your local meta, etc. You're better off building a list first, and then coming here for feedback.
It has just been rumored that Drop Pods will be FAQed, and in the new SM dex only be able to carry models with a 2+ or 3+ save, so drop pod haywire may be severely nerfed.
Ok sorry, I was being a idiot about it. And about the drop pods, that just makes more sense. I've never used the Skitarii pod tactic anyway and I beileve that can be a great army without them.
Relatively simple 1500 point casual-ish list. Breachers are for supplemental long range AV, Dominus goes with one of the Destroyers. I could always run a War Convocation instead, but that means even moar money and points for a knight.
Primary Detachment: CAD
HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus (155)
-Eradication Ray
-Phosphor Serpenta
-Cognis Relic
Troops:
Kataphron Destroyers (165)
-3x Heavy Grav Cannon
Of course this varies on model ownership, but I'd ditch the lone dragoon, serpenta on Dominus, and ranger squad. Put the points into a second Onager and beef up Vanguard bodycount or add a third squad. That, or ditch the rangers to add two more dragoons for a squadron of them.
Luminagen: A unit that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds, glancing or penetrating hits caused by a weapon with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1 point worse than normal until the end of the phase. Furthermore, units can re-roll the dice to determine their charge range against the afflicted unit until the end of the turn.
obsidiankatana wrote: Of course this varies on model ownership, but I'd ditch the lone dragoon, serpenta on Dominus, and ranger squad. Put the points into a second Onager and beef up Vanguard bodycount or add a third squad. That, or ditch the rangers to add two more dragoons for a squadron of them.
I'd second this. Either boost the dragoon to 2 or 3 in a squad, or ditch it completely. Dominus doesn't need a serpenta. Ranger squad is dependent on your meta. Keep your Onagers separate if only one has an Icarus Array.
Not sure if anyone else caught Frontline's stream with Reece running the War Congregation Formation last night, but was a good example of the formation's power considering he was rolling poorly and forgot half his rules.
Still won against a pretty nasty looking white scar bike list
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not sure if anyone else caught Frontline's stream with Reece running the War Congregation Formation last night, but was a good example of the formation's power considering he was rolling poorly and forgot half his rules.
Still won against a pretty nasty looking white scar bike list
Just keep in mind that Reece and Frankie have also done similar things with daemon factory, etc. Sometimes when Reece rolls poorly and forgets rules he actually plays a lot better than when he rolls well and is confident. Sometimes they talk about rolling poorly and they do but the important rolls were actually outstandingly good. Their daemon factory test game was the best case in point of not judging a list by one game, Frankie summoned over 900 pts of daemons in ~3 turns, rolled like pants on anything not a conjuration psychic test but rolled almost impossible odds on those tests.
Here's a link to the page with the replay if you're interested in seeing it. I think it's a pretty good watch for anyone who's planning on running a War Congregation:
WrentheFaceless wrote:True, but it was one of the first big showings of that detachment in sort of a competitive format.
Oh, definitely true. Additionally Reece and the gang are pretty good about trying to stay (as a group at least) pretty fair and balanced. Nothing but love for them.
The batrep was actually really amusing on a lot of levels. The poor white scars player was just smacked across the face with new rules after new rules. He really exemplified the saying know yourself and know your enemy. He had no idea what he was facing so he full reserved against and didn't attempt a seize against an army which can gain +3 to cover saves if you don't reduce the number of units and give them a chance to declare. He could have outdistanced the majority of their shooting and moved up to shoot and charge (many of Reeces units had to come within 18" to do anything at all). That would have been a seriously different game if the white scars player was hit and running in and out of close combats and knew that reducing the number of units would also reduce the canticles effectiveness.
Enigwolf wrote:Here's a link to the page with the replay if you're interested in seeing it. I think it's a pretty good watch for anyone who's planning on running a War Congregation:
ultimentra wrote: Maybe since Reece occasionally comes on here from time to time, maybe he can chime in on why he didn't go for a full shooty loadout on the Kastellans?
I would totally love it if he did a question-and-answer thing here.
ultimentra wrote: Maybe since Reece occasionally comes on here from time to time, maybe he can chime in on why he didn't go for a full shooty loadout on the Kastellans?
I think he wanted a little bit of everything since he hadnt run Cult Mechanius units yet at all yet.
I ran the convocation against an eldar/white scars list last night.
I think the biggest thing that mechanicum have right now are surprise. Things like my opponent charging jetbikes into a vanguard unit where the alpha has the pater radium or underestimating the big bots in combat.
The ruststalkers are largely a useless tax unit in what is mostly an all shooty army.
Canticles meshes extremely well with doctrines. Going first is just so very strong. The mechanicum has a strong first turn alpha with massive ballistic skill buff. Then you toss on stealth and shrouding and your opponent has no real chance to return fire.
the42up wrote: I ran the convocation against an eldar/white scars list last night.
I think the biggest thing that mechanicum have right now are surprise. Things like my opponent charging jetbikes into a vanguard unit where the alpha has the pater radium or underestimating the big bots in combat.
The ruststalkers are largely a useless tax unit in what is mostly an all shooty army.
Canticles meshes extremely well with doctrines. Going first is just so very strong. The mechanicum has a strong first turn alpha with massive ballistic skill buff. Then you toss on stealth and shrouding and your opponent has no real chance to return fire.
Well, not everyone obsessively reads rules and leaks online, wait until that element of surprise dies out
Then you'll only be winning by a moderate amount, instead of a lot
Just did a few test games/ scenarios trying the different formations and unit compositions for breachers, destroyers and kastelans.
Breachers: These guys are really REALLY good. Like stupid good. The arc cannon ones threaten basically any vehicle on the board with their extreme range, even made my buddy hesitant about what to do with his knight as they threatened it pretty much everywhere. BTW, a really fun combo with these guys is to take them in a unit of 3-5, and attach a dominus with the armor that gives them cognis... if you arent a fan of dunecrawlers, holy crap is this a fantastic pseudo option for anti air.
Now for the gun that I think is the most f-ed up but coolest fluff in the dex...the torsion cannon. At first glance the 1 shot is a real bummer. But when using the battle congregation, and even only 4 different cult mech units, you can basically give all your units BS5 twice during the game (BS 3 rerolling 1s and 2s). This makes all your units, including those with torsion cannons very accurate and mitigates the 1 shot quite a bit. I have found that this gun has 1 purpose... to annihilate any deathstar or high point cost unit on the board in absolutely brutal fashion. Threats I faced were a wolfstar, grav centstar, adamantine lance, and multiple high point superheavies. 5-6 of these guys, with an attached dominus with the scrying skull DECIMATED everything they shot at. Every single time, we both were underestimating the multiwound capability of the unit and man, when you have a 66% chance to outright kill any 2 wound model (im lookin at you cents and pups) even one of these shots getting through is terrifying. running a unit of 6, these guys killed in a single volley: 4 thunderwolves, tigirius and 2 cents, knights, drago and 3 paladins, a brass scorpion and a gargantuan squiggoth. In one test they even managed to kill a knight outright with only one shot, hit, penned for 3 HP and then 3HP for rolling a 5 for penetrating, just bonkers. Ive also found that 24" is enough as most of their targets will either be deployed close to you or be coming at you. Weakness of these guys is def LD8. Without an attached dominus I am always afraid of them running.
Destroyers: Alright, most already know what these guys are capable of in output, grav is disgusting and simply the better of the two options as the plasma has a tendency to do less damage, just take grav... 6 shots a piece is crazy powerful. When compared to torsion cannon Breachers, the only time torsion cannons can really outplay the grav destroyers is against superheavies, but otherwise the output of fire from grav is pretty devestating. Interestingly I think the best targets for these guys are MSU armies. Marines and Bikes are their bread and butter targets, and if you take at least 4 units of them, they threaten so many targets your opponent is going to have a hard time prioritizing. THe phospur blaster actually does surprisingly come into play as even a single unsaved wound on a unit of say jetbikes, pretty much guarantees the whole unit is going to die by the grav fusilade. I'd say actually the only real weakness of these guys is return fire. They die surprisingly quickly with just a 4+ and LD8 isn't exactly stellar.
Kastelans: Alright I only ran them in the cohort formation (4 bots, 2 priests, dominus with the IWND item) so I will just talk about that. First off, I cannot emphasize enough how STUPID durable this unit is when giving the dominus the IWND item for the unit... Think res orb, 20 man unit of decurion necron warriors, with attached character and a ghost arc behind, resilient. I mean the unit just...doesn't die. With majority T7, an IC to pass wounds all over the place, FnP on the characters and sometimes the bots, the dominus giving wounds back, IWND, 3+ saves, 2+ saves, etc. etc. I mean, I struggle to think of a more resilient unit. After 2 turns of shooting at it, my opponent realized both of those turns were an utter waste of time and he should have just ignored it. They even managed to beat a wolfstar in combat (after hilariously, my dominus failed a LoS but passed his 4++ conversion field save, which proceeded to blind the wolfstar in hilarious fashion) now granted that circumstance was funny, but that was after the first round of combat where the bots managed to kill 1.5 thunderwolves before they struck, then ate 7 S10 fist wounds like they were nothing.
I though CC would be a weakness for them, but literally every single model in that unit is actually good at CC. Which brings me to the formations dominus rule for their protocols. At first I thought this rule was kinda gakky. Causing their protocol to become immediately active meant you couldn't choose the shooty one, have a turn of FnP and then sit back and blast away. Well against a CC army is where this rule shines. If you see you are about to get hit by a bunch of CC guys like a wolfstar, or some other CC units, select the conqueror protocol at the end of your turn for double base attacks and just sit back and wait. The danger to this is that your normally shooty unit now cannot shoot for a turn if your opponent decides not to charge you, but if you are using this strategy, just go after them instead!
Lastly, the ranged damage output. The firepower on this unit when enabling the rerolls canticle is just...so good. I almost always stop at least my two priest from shooting to let 2 bots split fire, but if the dominus also has nothing to do, I let all 4 bots fire at different targets. This formation is a marine and jetbike player's worst nightmare. Even without the protector protocol, each bot with 6 S6 ap3 shots threatens so many things that your opponent will always want to try and focus them, but realize that they cant and become super frustrated. That is what this formation is, a frustration formation.
It was also suggested by my buddy that I should give a priest the cognis wargear, so they could threaten air targets like FMC, of which we are going to test this weekend against a pentyrant list
Sorry for the brick of text, hope this was at least somewhat useful!
gameandwatch wrote: Just did a few test games/ scenarios trying the different formations and unit compositions for breachers, destroyers and kastelans.
Breachers: These guys are really REALLY good. Like stupid good. The arc cannon ones threaten basically any vehicle on the board with their extreme range, even made my buddy hesitant about what to do with his knight as they threatened it pretty much everywhere. BTW, a really fun combo with these guys is to take them in a unit of 3-5, and attach a dominus with the armor that gives them cognis... if you arent a fan of dunecrawlers, holy crap is this a fantastic pseudo option for anti air.
Now for the gun that I think is the most f-ed up but coolest fluff in the dex...the torsion cannon. At first glance the 1 shot is a real bummer. But when using the battle congregation, and even only 4 different cult mech units, you can basically give all your units BS5 twice during the game (BS 3 rerolling 1s and 2s). This makes all your units, including those with torsion cannons very accurate and mitigates the 1 shot quite a bit. I have found that this gun has 1 purpose... to annihilate any deathstar or high point cost unit on the board in absolutely brutal fashion. Threats I faced were a wolfstar, grav centstar, adamantine lance, and multiple high point superheavies. 5-6 of these guys, with an attached dominus with the scrying skull DECIMATED everything they shot at. Every single time, we both were underestimating the multiwound capability of the unit and man, when you have a 66% chance to outright kill any 2 wound model (im lookin at you cents and pups) even one of these shots getting through is terrifying. running a unit of 6, these guys killed in a single volley: 4 thunderwolves, tigirius and 2 cents, knights, drago and 3 paladins, a brass scorpion and a gargantuan squiggoth. In one test they even managed to kill a knight outright with only one shot, hit, penned for 3 HP and then 3HP for rolling a 5 for penetrating, just bonkers. Ive also found that 24" is enough as most of their targets will either be deployed close to you or be coming at you. Weakness of these guys is def LD8. Without an attached dominus I am always afraid of them running.
Destroyers: Alright, most already know what these guys are capable of in output, grav is disgusting and simply the better of the two options as the plasma has a tendency to do less damage, just take grav... 6 shots a piece is crazy powerful. When compared to torsion cannon Breachers, the only time torsion cannons can really outplay the grav destroyers is against superheavies, but otherwise the output of fire from grav is pretty devestating. Interestingly I think the best targets for these guys are MSU armies. Marines and Bikes are their bread and butter targets, and if you take at least 4 units of them, they threaten so many targets your opponent is going to have a hard time prioritizing. THe phospur blaster actually does surprisingly come into play as even a single unsaved wound on a unit of say jetbikes, pretty much guarantees the whole unit is going to die by the grav fusilade. I'd say actually the only real weakness of these guys is return fire. They die surprisingly quickly with just a 4+ and LD8 isn't exactly stellar.
Kastelans: Alright I only ran them in the cohort formation (4 bots, 2 priests, dominus with the IWND item) so I will just talk about that. First off, I cannot emphasize enough how STUPID durable this unit is when giving the dominus the IWND item for the unit... Think res orb, 20 man unit of decurion necron warriors, with attached character and a ghost arc behind, resilient. I mean the unit just...doesn't die. With majority T7, an IC to pass wounds all over the place, FnP on the characters and sometimes the bots, the dominus giving wounds back, IWND, 3+ saves, 2+ saves, etc. etc. I mean, I struggle to think of a more resilient unit. After 2 turns of shooting at it, my opponent realized both of those turns were an utter waste of time and he should have just ignored it. They even managed to beat a wolfstar in combat (after hilariously, my dominus failed a LoS but passed his 4++ conversion field save, which proceeded to blind the wolfstar in hilarious fashion) now granted that circumstance was funny, but that was after the first round of combat where the bots managed to kill 1.5 thunderwolves before they struck, then ate 7 S10 fist wounds like they were nothing.
I though CC would be a weakness for them, but literally every single model in that unit is actually good at CC. Which brings me to the formations dominus rule for their protocols. At first I thought this rule was kinda gakky. Causing their protocol to become immediately active meant you couldn't choose the shooty one, have a turn of FnP and then sit back and blast away. Well against a CC army is where this rule shines. If you see you are about to get hit by a bunch of CC guys like a wolfstar, or some other CC units, select the conqueror protocol at the end of your turn for double base attacks and just sit back and wait. The danger to this is that your normally shooty unit now cannot shoot for a turn if your opponent decides not to charge you, but if you are using this strategy, just go after them instead!
Lastly, the ranged damage output. The firepower on this unit when enabling the rerolls canticle is just...so good. I almost always stop at least my two priest from shooting to let 2 bots split fire, but if the dominus also has nothing to do, I let all 4 bots fire at different targets. This formation is a marine and jetbike player's worst nightmare. Even without the protector protocol, each bot with 6 S6 ap3 shots threatens so many things that your opponent will always want to try and focus them, but realize that they cant and become super frustrated. That is what this formation is, a frustration formation.
It was also suggested by my buddy that I should give a priest the cognis wargear, so they could threaten air targets like FMC, of which we are going to test this weekend against a pentyrant list
Sorry for the brick of text, hope this was at least somewhat useful!
Cheers, thanks very much for the feedback. A lot of it makes sense, and confirms what I suspected. I have a soft spot for breachers, because of their 3+ armor and their ability to take 36" Heavy Arc Guns compensates for the lack of Arc Rifles (max 3) in a War Congregation because of the 1 Vanguard squad max. In what types of lists would you be taking Arc or Torsion Breachers over Destroyers? I'm thinking that the rest of a War Congregation already puts out ridiculously stupid amounts of general dakka dakka that the anti-tank/anti-LoW utility from Heavy Arc Guns has more marginal benefit.
at AP1 and causing d3 hps it has a decent potential to 1 shot a knight.
you get to do d3 HP and roll on the pen table, at ap1 if you roll an explodes result you do an additional d3 HP, so 1 shot can potentially do 6hp to a SH vehicle.
The gun is nasty on its own but because of how the Super Heavy vehicle rules work, it actually can do more damage versus a SH vehicle than it can versus any other target.
The range on the heavy arc rifle is good, and it is haywire but dismissing the power of the torsion cannon all the time is a mistake IMO. I think there are situations/opponents where the torsion cannon is much more useful.
at AP1 and causing d3 hps it has a decent potential to 1 shot a knight.
you get to do d3 HP and roll on the pen table, at ap1 if you roll an explodes result you do an additional d3 HP, so 1 shot can potentially do 6hp to a SH vehicle.
The gun is nasty on its own but because of how the Super Heavy vehicle rules work, it actually can do more damage versus a SH vehicle than it can versus any other target.
The range on the heavy arc rifle is good, and it is haywire but dismissing the power of the torsion cannon all the time is a mistake IMO. I think there are situations/opponents where the torsion cannon is much more useful.
BS5 for only 2 turns makes me nervous, though. And additionally, landing a hit is one thing, but if my opponent has a decent cover save its not as effective in my opinion as say, a ton of grav shots. I wish Torsion Cannons were 2 shot, I'd be a little less skeptical about taking them.
I'm not sure "high chance" of one shotting a Knight is the right way to put it. It has a chance, sure, unlike any other gun that's not D, but it's not high.
Roll to hit (without canticles) is 50%
Pen against front armor 13 (which they'll do if they're smart) is 16%
They save 50% if they have the shield there
Chance to get explodes is 33%
Chance to get explodes of 3HP is 33%
Chance to get Torsion of 3 is 33%
So that's only a .1% chance, statistically. "High" is not the word I'd use.
That increases if you have Canticles, hit Side or Rear Armor, and bypass shield. It jumps to .925% chance to instakill in one shot. So... still not great.
Maybe my math is off, but I don't think so.
1 * 1/2(hit) * 1/6(pen) * 1/2(invuln) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00154
1 * 3/4(hit) * 1/3(pen) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00926
I mean, a unit of 3 has a pretty good chance of killing it in one go just with Torsion and average exploding, but one shot? Not likely.
I apologize, at the end of my post I was talking about the gun singular, but at begining without stating I was talking about an unit with the gun.
an unit of breachers with torsion cannons is much less points than a knight.
You could very reasonably have two breacher squads of 4 models with torsion cannons for the cost of 1 knight.
Consider you most likely can not put them right on top of each other so the knight has to pick a facing to shield, and you can probably get side armor with one of the units.
Of course 8 haywire shots from arc rifles would mess up a knight pretty well too and from more range which i absolutely concede is utterly true, but the torsion cannons will mess up the knight, but also threaten things like Terminators, 3+ save models, MCs, 2+ save models, and the arc rifles don't.
and yes a bunch of grav shots is often better as well, but this unit cannot get grav.
your math is not off.
also I said decent potential, not high Consider most things have 0 potential to 1 shot a knight, and then .9% is pretty decent per shot. It only gets better where you look at tournaments where there are no D weapons, or D weapons are modified to do significantly less damage.
Requizen wrote: I'm not sure "high chance" of one shotting a Knight is the right way to put it. It has a chance, sure, unlike any other gun that's not D, but it's not high.
Roll to hit (without canticles) is 50% Pen against front armor 13 (which they'll do if they're smart) is 16% They save 50% if they have the shield there Chance to get explodes is 33% Chance to get explodes of 3HP is 33% Chance to get Torsion of 3 is 33%
So that's only a .1% chance, statistically. "High" is not the word I'd use.
That increases if you have Canticles, hit Side or Rear Armor, and bypass shield. It jumps to .925% chance to instakill in one shot. So... still not great.
Maybe my math is off, but I don't think so. 1 * 1/2(hit) * 1/6(pen) * 1/2(invuln) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00154 1 * 3/4(hit) * 1/3(pen) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00926
I mean, a unit of 3 has a pretty good chance of killing it in one go just with Torsion and average exploding, but one shot? Not likely.
Oh the 1 shot from our test was pure luck, plain and simple. It was just one of those moments where afterwards we were just like "woah, that is kinda crazy"
As for Breachers vs Destroyers, I think if you are running pure Cult, or at least mostly cult, I would use both. Like 3 squads of min destroyers with grav, 1 squad of min breachers with arc as a pure anti-tank, and 1 squad of 5 with torsion with an attached dominus as the death dealer squad. That comes out to 1110 points which leaves you plenty of room for other things like a cohort formation (cannot get over how good this formation is)
Cohort: Dominus, autocadeus of arkhan land, conversion field 140 x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith, Raiment of the technomartyr 350 x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith 320
Total: 1840
Everything is low ap except arc, everything majority T5 or better, long range, multiwound. Could be a really nasty army. Only 25 models, but with a surprising amount of durability and with a firepower output especially for an alpha strike that is just crazy CRAZY strong. Also 9 units so you get the max canticle ability: Including 2 turns of everything twin-linked and 2 turns of everything with stealth and shrouded. I can say with all confidence that I would not want to face this
Considering Torsion really only seems to shine vs superheavies and large wound count MCs, and most superheavies have high enough AV to minimize a lot of damage potential from the Str8 of Torsion, I'd wager it really only has a place vs high wound count MCs with poor armor. Heavy Arc ought to outstrip Torsion vs Superheavies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WrentheFaceless wrote: Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?
I think there's one highly amusing difference between the Breachers and Destroyers: Both of the Breacher's guns are fairly balanced against one another, both being useful in their own ways and can have realistic arguments for seeing the battlefield.
Meanwhile, Plasma Destroyers are so hilariously beaten out by Grav Destroyers that almost no one considers using them, period.
WrentheFaceless wrote:Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?
1 out of 6 is average, but the key wording on the shield is that the reflect applies to ANY save of a 6 a kastellan makes. This means armor, cover and invul saves can all reflect shots which is great. The shield reflection only sometimes comes into play, though we did have a kastellan reflect a Wraithknight D shot (he passed his cover save though so it nullified but was still a scary/ amusing moment)
Exergy wrote:
gameandwatch wrote: you can basically give all your units BS5 twice during the game (BS 3 rerolling 1s and 2s).
BS3 rerolling 1s and 2s is exactly as effective as BS4, not 5. BS3 twinlinked is not even as good as BS5.
BS5 hits 5 of 6 shots where as BS3 rerolling 1s and 2s hits 4, so not as good, sure, but much better than just straight BS3. Was just pointing out that the 1 shot isn't so bad when you can nearly twin link them, or with enough units twin link them.
obsidiankatana wrote:Considering Torsion really only seems to shine vs superheavies and large wound count MCs, and most superheavies have high enough AV to minimize a lot of damage potential from the Str8 of Torsion, I'd wager it really only has a place vs high wound count MCs with poor armor. Heavy Arc ought to outstrip Torsion vs Superheavies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WrentheFaceless wrote: Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?
Instinct tells me 16% of them. Roughly.
^ though everytime it happens, man is it funny Torsion is good for those, and deathstars, and 2+ save models like dreadknights or riptides. It certainly has a place.
Dreadknights or Riptides are better dealt with by way of Grav Cannon. I grant, that means we no longer talk about Breachers, but both are troops and are of comparable cost. I can't speak to Deathstars - but each grav cannon has a maximum damage output capability of six wounds spread among six models of a unit, saved separately. Torsion cannon has a maximum three wounds to a single model saved as a package. My instincts say Grav wins here too.
obsidiankatana wrote: Dreadknights or Riptides are better dealt with by way of Grav Cannon. I grant, that means we no longer talk about Breachers, but both are troops and are of comparable cost. I can't speak to Deathstars - but each grav cannon has a maximum damage output capability of six wounds spread among six models of a unit, saved separately. Torsion cannon has a maximum three wounds to a single model saved as a package. My instincts say Grav wins here too.
that's a tough call. 18 BS3 grav shots will get ~9 hits at BS3, which will average 6 wounds on 3+ armor with no save. 3 torsion cannons will average 1.5 hits, which is basically d3 wounds to 1 model. Against meq/teq squads grav is phenomenally better than torsion. Against large MC type things, grav is also better. Against vehicles, 18BS3 grav shots is average 9 hits, which is 1.5 rolls of 6 in mathhammer. So 1 immobilize result on a vehicle. 3 torsion shots is 1.5hits, aganst av14 is .24 effects, av 13 is .495 effects, av 12 is .75 effects, av11 is .9999 effects, and av 10 is 1.299 effects. With a scaling component of a chance to do d3 hp instead of 1 for av 13 and less. Against AV 11-10 torsion is superior, discount saves/cover/jinking/etc.
I think the other factor is the models durability, destroyers are armor 4+, there are not a lot of ap4 weapons out there but should you run into a lot of heavy bolters(unlikely), autocannons (possible), lootas, missilsides, the gauss guns thate are ap4 (immortals, necron bikes) etc the grav units may not be firing for as many turns as the torsion units.
Requizen wrote: I'm not sure "high chance" of one shotting a Knight is the right way to put it. It has a chance, sure, unlike any other gun that's not D, but it's not high.
Roll to hit (without canticles) is 50%
Pen against front armor 13 (which they'll do if they're smart) is 16%
They save 50% if they have the shield there
Chance to get explodes is 33%
Chance to get explodes of 3HP is 33%
Chance to get Torsion of 3 is 33%
So that's only a .1% chance, statistically. "High" is not the word I'd use.
That increases if you have Canticles, hit Side or Rear Armor, and bypass shield. It jumps to .925% chance to instakill in one shot. So... still not great.
Maybe my math is off, but I don't think so.
1 * 1/2(hit) * 1/6(pen) * 1/2(invuln) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00154
1 * 3/4(hit) * 1/3(pen) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00926
I mean, a unit of 3 has a pretty good chance of killing it in one go just with Torsion and average exploding, but one shot? Not likely.
Oh the 1 shot from our test was pure luck, plain and simple. It was just one of those moments where afterwards we were just like "woah, that is kinda crazy"
As for Breachers vs Destroyers, I think if you are running pure Cult, or at least mostly cult, I would use both. Like 3 squads of min destroyers with grav, 1 squad of min breachers with arc as a pure anti-tank, and 1 squad of 5 with torsion with an attached dominus as the death dealer squad. That comes out to 1110 points which leaves you plenty of room for other things like a cohort formation (cannot get over how good this formation is)
obsidiankatana wrote: Dreadknights or Riptides are better dealt with by way of Grav Cannon. I grant, that means we no longer talk about Breachers, but both are troops and are of comparable cost. I can't speak to Deathstars - but each grav cannon has a maximum damage output capability of six wounds spread among six models of a unit, saved separately. Torsion cannon has a maximum three wounds to a single model saved as a package. My instincts say Grav wins here too.
that's a tough call. 18 BS3 grav shots will get ~9 hits at BS3, which will average 6 wounds on 3+ armor with no save. 3 torsion cannons will average 1.5 hits, which is basically d3 wounds to 1 model. Against meq/teq squads grav is phenomenally better than torsion. Against large MC type things, grav is also better. Against vehicles, 18BS3 grav shots is average 9 hits, which is 1.5 rolls of 6 in mathhammer. So 1 immobilize result on a vehicle. 3 torsion shots is 1.5hits, aganst av14 is .24 effects, av 13 is .495 effects, av 12 is .75 effects, av11 is .9999 effects, and av 10 is 1.299 effects. With a scaling component of a chance to do d3 hp instead of 1 for av 13 and less. Against AV 11-10 torsion is superior, discount saves/cover/jinking/etc.
I think the other factor is the models durability, destroyers are armor 4+, there are not a lot of ap4 weapons out there but should you run into a lot of heavy bolters(unlikely), autocannons (possible), lootas, missilsides, the gauss guns thate are ap4 (immortals, necron bikes) etc the grav units may not be firing for as many turns as the torsion units.
1.5 rounds to 2 as easily as one. Destroyers aren't as durable, that's undeniable, but if they weren't there's a good chance you'd never see Breachers.
Cheers, thanks very much for the feedback. A lot of it makes sense, and confirms what I suspected. I have a soft spot for breachers, because of their 3+ armor and their ability to take 36" Heavy Arc Guns compensates for the lack of Arc Rifles (max 3) in a War Congregation because of the 1 Vanguard squad max. In what types of lists would you be taking Arc or Torsion Breachers over Destroyers? I'm thinking that the rest of a War Congregation already puts out ridiculously stupid amounts of general dakka dakka that the anti-tank/anti-LoW utility from Heavy Arc Guns has more marginal benefit.
War Congregation gets 1 Vanguard and 1 Ranger squad, so can take 6 arc rifles, and 2 arc pistols if you like.
Cheers, thanks very much for the feedback. A lot of it makes sense, and confirms what I suspected. I have a soft spot for breachers, because of their 3+ armor and their ability to take 36" Heavy Arc Guns compensates for the lack of Arc Rifles (max 3) in a War Congregation because of the 1 Vanguard squad max. In what types of lists would you be taking Arc or Torsion Breachers over Destroyers? I'm thinking that the rest of a War Congregation already puts out ridiculously stupid amounts of general dakka dakka that the anti-tank/anti-LoW utility from Heavy Arc Guns has more marginal benefit.
War Congregation gets 1 Vanguard and 1 Ranger squad, so can take 6 arc rifles, and 2 arc pistols if you like.
I do like breachers for heavy arc though.
Typically Rangers are best kept at range with Arquebuses, so that leaves a Vanguard squad, which is easily slain if your opponent knows their target priority. Hm. Breachers for Heavy Arc doe...
With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.
War Congregation gets 1 Vanguard and 1 Ranger squad, so can take 6 arc rifles, and 2 arc pistols if you like.
I do like breachers for heavy arc though.
Typically Rangers are best kept at range with Arquebuses, so that leaves a Vanguard squad, which is easily slain if your opponent knows their target priority. Hm. Breachers for Heavy Arc doe...
I mean technically if you are going with the free upgrades, you are going to have plasma on the Vanguard and Arquebuses on the Rangers. So you will be having heavy arc rifles on your breachers of course.
gameandwatch wrote: With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.
I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.
gameandwatch wrote: With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.
I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.
Well part of the problem he had is placement, I find the best way to run the servitors is to stick them in the middle and make a bubble of death. As for particularly the torsion cannons, one way you could bypass this is with the deep strike formation, though I have yet to use it so cannot comment on its effectiveness
gameandwatch wrote: With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.
I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.
Well part of the problem he had is placement, I find the best way to run the servitors is to stick them in the middle and make a bubble of death. As for particularly the torsion cannons, one way you could bypass this is with the deep strike formation, though I have yet to use it so cannot comment on its effectiveness
I'm not a fan of the deep strike formation, since you'll at most be 12" from an objective.. And that's by stringing your units out. If your opponent knows its coming, its not hard to set up in preparation for it.
gameandwatch wrote: With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.
I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.
Well part of the problem he had is placement, I find the best way to run the servitors is to stick them in the middle and make a bubble of death. As for particularly the torsion cannons, one way you could bypass this is with the deep strike formation, though I have yet to use it so cannot comment on its effectiveness
I'm not a fan of the deep strike formation. If your opponent knows its coming, its not hard to set up in preparation for it.
It's also kinda screwed if you end up playing Purge the Alien or a custom with no Markers.
Man, I really wanted to want to use some of the other types, but the benefits of the Grav relative to everything else and the planned composition of the rest of my forces makes it so difficult.
I'll have Arc out the backside with at least two units of Vanguard with full-Arc, and in Rhinos as well so the range isn't as big a limitation - makes Heavy Arc somewhat redundant. Plasma and Torsion suffer from all the issues everyone's already pointed out - poor range, grav does most of their jobs better or just as well etc.
Literally the only reason for me not to take Grav Destroyers is I was planning on using allied Grav-Centurions to represent my Myrmidon models, but since they're not painted yet I could swap out the grav weaponry for Lascannons and make them Cult of Sollex Destructors instead.
Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?
Enigwolf wrote: Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?
He played it wrong, they absolutely hit flyers, as the repulsor grid shots do not roll to hit and so hard to hit is irrelevant. THe language is quite clear.
Enigwolf wrote: Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?
He played it wrong, they absolutely hit flyers, as the repulsor grid shots do not roll to hit and so hard to hit is irrelevant. THe language is quite clear.
Actually it is not clear. The rules for flyers clearly state that abilities that auto hit don't work against flyers. This is entirely an FAQ or TO decision.
Enigwolf wrote: Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?
He played it wrong, they absolutely hit flyers, as the repulsor grid shots do not roll to hit and so hard to hit is irrelevant. THe language is quite clear.
Actually it is not clear. The rules for flyers clearly state that abilities that auto hit don't work against flyers. This is entirely an FAQ or TO decision.
I must have missed that, I stand corrected. If it says they cannot be hit by auto hits, then THAT language is clear and they cannot hit flyers.
Enigwolf wrote: Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?
Just posted this topic in YMDC, only person that answered stated it would work on invis and FMC but not zooming vehicles.
It really could go either way IMO. Auto hits don't hit flyer according to the BRB but the codex if it is considered in direct opposition would trump that. I don't think it does but it is extremely tough to tell. Rules questions are not really my thing though.
What's the optimum build? Simply maxing out unit numbers without upgrades comes to just barely under 1850, so not many points for upgrades. I have a feeling dropping one Datasmith would go further, still allowing an even 6/6 split of robot fire and giving some extra upgrade wiggle room.
What's the optimum build? Simply maxing out unit numbers without upgrades comes to just barely under 1850, so not many points for upgrades. I have a feeling dropping one Datasmith would go further, still allowing an even 6/6 split of robot fire and giving some extra upgrade wiggle room.
What's the optimum build? Simply maxing out unit numbers without upgrades comes to just barely under 1850, so not many points for upgrades. I have a feeling dropping one Datasmith would go further, still allowing an even 6/6 split of robot fire and giving some extra upgrade wiggle room.
Don't really have many options. I'd say slot in 4-5 flamers for overwatch and horde clearance, grab the IWND and Cognis relics, and... that's about all you can do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and all phosphor. Maybe two with fists. Maybe.
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
Taking relics in combination with Destroyer or Breacher Squads seems to make him worth it. Would be kind of awesome to give a squad of heavy arc rifle breachers Cognis. how are people feeling about the optimum size for units when it comes to the Kataphrons? I'm thinking:
-Destroyers with Grav: Only ever run in units of 3.
-Breachers with Arc: Units of 3-5, Dominus here for Cognis.
-Breachers with Torsion: Units of 5 minimum, maximizes the amount of shots also put a Dominus here to utilize relics.
also is it better to give them Cognis Flamers or Phosphur Blasters on the Destroyers?
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
For 105 points base in the War Convocation he's a steal with all the free upgrades you get.
He's pretty tanky (2+ FNP 3W) and the relics you pair him with make your bots so much better.
He's also one unit for the purposes of Canticles that is quite easy to hide.
His shooting isn't any slouch either, 8+ shots on a BS 5 platform? He murders light infantry in the open.
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
For 105 points base in the War Convocation he's a steal with all the free upgrades you get.
He's pretty tanky (2+ FNP 3W) and the relics you pair him with make your bots so much better.
He's also one unit for the purposes of Canticles that is quite easy to hide.
His shooting isn't any slouch either, 8+ shots on a BS 5 platform? He murders light infantry in the open.
Dominus is not a tax.
Any unit counts as a canticle contributor. I'd rather have one which outputs Grav/Arc fire or more Kastelans.
Relic carrying can be done by Datasmiths, which are no additional cost to Kastelans. They are also 2W 2+SvFNP models.
He murders light infantry in the open - so do Skitarii Vanguard, Destroyers with Cognis Flamers, and Kastelans.
I'm not saying he's a bad model. He just doesn't bring much that AdMech isn't already capable of. He can carry relics for Kataphrons, that's unique. And his wound/HP renewal. That's it.
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
Taking relics in combination with Destroyer or Breacher Squads seems to make him worth it. Would be kind of awesome to give a squad of heavy arc rifle breachers Cognis. how are people feeling about the optimum size for units when it comes to the Kataphrons? I'm thinking:
-Destroyers with Grav: Only ever run in units of 3.
-Breachers with Arc: Units of 3-5, Dominus here for Cognis.
-Breachers with Torsion: Units of 5 minimum, maximizes the amount of shots also put a Dominus here to utilize relics.
also is it better to give them Cognis Flamers or Phosphur Blasters on the Destroyers?
For Arc, I'd say 4. Typically, Canticles should give you enough re-rolls for them to achieve their objective of blowing up the most threatening enemy vehicles.
I usually leave one Kataphron with a Cognis Flamer just for the Cognis Flamewall USR. Kataphrons suffer from an abject lack of mobility - this lends them to potentially getting locked into CC by more mobile units. That Cognis Flamer, in my mind, might be the difference in killing off one model during Overwatch and thus causing them to fail charge. Similarly, I equip my Kastelans with one Incendine Combustor, for the ability to torrent-flame horde units out, and as Overwatch insurance (though it doesn't have Cognis, sadly).
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
For 105 points base in the War Convocation he's a steal with all the free upgrades you get.
He's pretty tanky (2+ FNP 3W) and the relics you pair him with make your bots so much better.
He's also one unit for the purposes of Canticles that is quite easy to hide.
His shooting isn't any slouch either, 8+ shots on a BS 5 platform? He murders light infantry in the open.
Dominus is not a tax.
Any unit counts as a canticle contributor. I'd rather have one which outputs Grav/Arc fire or more Kastelans.
Relic carrying can be done by Datasmiths, which are no additional cost to Kastelans. They are also 2W 2+SvFNP models.
He murders light infantry in the open - so do Skitarii Vanguard, Destroyers with Cognis Flamers, and Kastelans.
I'm not saying he's a bad model. He just doesn't bring much that AdMech isn't already capable of. He can carry relics for Kataphrons, that's unique. And his wound/HP renewal. That's it.
The dominus brings HP renewal for an army made up up multi-wound units (other than the still sub-par priests, who he doesn't want to hang with anyway). He bring LD10, which is HUGE for those Destroyer/Breacher squadrons, who lack fearless and can be targeted by Maledictions and what not. He has a Volkite gun that is literally unlike anything else in 40k.
And, as an IC, he can add these to any unit on the board depending on what you want to use him for in a given game (unless you bring him in the Cohort). Which also means those Relics can be brought to units other than Robots, making them much more versatile on him than on a Datasmith.
For 105 points? Yeah, that's no "tax". That's a really, really good generic HQ unit.
Requizen wrote: The dominus brings HP renewal for an army made up up multi-wound units (other than the still sub-par priests, who he doesn't want to hang with anyway). He bring LD10, which is HUGE for those Destroyer/Breacher squadrons, who lack fearless and can be targeted by Maledictions and what not. He has a Volkite gun that is literally unlike anything else in 40k.
And, as an IC, he can add these to any unit on the board depending on what you want to use him for in a given game (unless you bring him in the Cohort). Which also means those Relics can be brought to units other than Robots, making them much more versatile on him than on a Datasmith.
For 105 points? Yeah, that's no "tax". That's a really, really good generic HQ unit.
Touched on the HP/Wound renewal. It's good, won't deny it. Ld10 is less impressive to me considering the MSU tendency for Kataphrons. I wouldn't be too concerned about a unit falling back when I have 2-3 more to shore it up. Maledictions could hurt them I suppose - but the same ones that would bring them down to Ld6 would bring a unit including him down to Ld8, and prevailing opinion seems to be that 8 is bad (here I disagree). True, it's a benefit. Not a spectacular one, but it's there. Volkite is... unique? It's not exactly unlike anything else. At its core, it provides a high wound count vs GEQ. Woohoo, I guess. And yeah, he can be a relic caddy for Kataphrons, that's definitely a boon.
Again, I'm not saying he's bad. The Dominus is good. I consider him a tax because, given the option of including him or an additional unit of Kataphrons, another Kastelan, 2-3 more Datasmiths, etc - I'd choose the latter.
Touched on the HP/Wound renewal. It's good, won't deny it. Ld10 is less impressive to me considering the MSU tendency for Kataphrons. I wouldn't be too concerned about a unit falling back when I have 2-3 more to shore it up. Maledictions could hurt them I suppose - but the same ones that would bring them down to Ld6 would bring a unit including him down to Ld8, and prevailing opinion seems to be that 8 is bad (here I disagree). True, it's a benefit. Not a spectacular one, but it's there. Volkite is... unique? It's not exactly unlike anything else. At its core, it provides a high wound count vs GEQ. Woohoo, I guess. And yeah, he can be a relic caddy for Kataphrons, that's definitely a boon.
Again, I'm not saying he's bad. The Dominus is good. I consider him a tax because, given the option of including him or an additional unit of Kataphrons, another Kastelan, 2-3 more Datasmiths, etc - I'd choose the latter.
On the one hand, I kinda know what you mean. Though, I think a similar argument could be made against a lot of HQs (even many that are considered good).
Regardless, as a DE player, all I can say is that I wish my Haemonculi even came close to being as good and useful as the Tech-priest dominus.
I honestly have been loving the dominus in my cohort. For starters I run him with an eradication ray because this allows him to engage with a 24" gun that is also S6 ap3 and blast, so he would be engaging the same general targets as the kastellans. Him passing IWND could be done by a datasmith, sure, but what he gives the unit is IC. This means he can sit out front, with all of the datasmiths in the center surrounded by robits, the robits of course are closest to the dominus. This gives the unit SO MUCH MORE survivability than normal when he can just toss around LoS wounds onto bots, or even smiths, who can then just regen them.
If you watched the Frontline game, you could see how long those bots survived with how tough they are, now give them IWND with a dominus deciding who gets wounds when... As I posted in my review, the unit just DOES NOT DIE. We did a big test last night and my buddy using scatterbikes took the entire army 2 full turns of shooting to inflict 3 wounds on the unit, 1 of which was regen'ed. Bonkers nuts I say!
At least in that sense the dominus is great.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and hes only LD9 not 10
gameandwatch wrote: I honestly have been loving the dominus in my cohort. For starters I run him with an eradication ray because this allows him to engage with a 24" gun that is also S6 ap3 and blast, so he would be engaging the same general targets as the kastellans. Him passing IWND could be done by a datasmith, sure, but what he gives the unit is IC. This means he can sit out front, with all of the datasmiths in the center surrounded by robits, the robits of course are closest to the dominus. This gives the unit SO MUCH MORE survivability than normal when he can just toss around LoS wounds onto bots, or even smiths, who can then just regen them.
If you watched the Frontline game, you could see how long those bots survived with how tough they are, now give them IWND with a dominus deciding who gets wounds when... As I posted in my review, the unit just DOES NOT DIE. We did a big test last night and my buddy using scatterbikes took the entire army 2 full turns of shooting to inflict 3 wounds on the unit, 1 of which was regen'ed. Bonkers nuts I say!
At least in that sense the dominus is great.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and hes only LD9 not 10
This is valuable. Within the bounds of a Cohort, the Dominus is fantastic. Within a Battle Congregation, my opinion holds.
He's far from a tax, hes one of the best priced HQs in the game for what he does.
Good LD, shooty, fairly tough (toughness for but 2+, the ability to upgrade to 4++ and FNP, and can heal himself), could hold his own in melee if it came to it and is chock full of utility with his repair and his skull
I think hes a good HQ, his statline isn't amazing but its not bad, and he comes laden with gear and special rules for his cost. He can still fire a weapon and repair in the same turn, and if you go first you can have him not attached to an unit to increase your unit count for first turn canticles, then join him to something so he is protected and can support the unit.
Generic HQs can always feel like a bit of a tax. Overlords are great: WS/BS/T/S 5, W3, 3+ with the option to get 4++ and IWND, 2+ Relic, RP. Plus good weapons from Warscythes and what not.
But, they can feel like a tax if you end up in a situation where the Warscythe does nothing (shooting vs shooting), he's just going to end up maybe tanking some wounds and trying not to give up Warlord.
Same with things like Captains or some other ones, at least the Dominus has healing and good wargear to make him decent without upgrades.
He's no Flyrant, or IGCCS with Orders, or Greater Daemon/Prince, or Farseer with Psychic Powers, sure. But I would put him above a lot of generic HQs in the game, pound for pound.
Question:
Is having the Chordclaw+Transonic Razor loadout on Ruststalkers (and you have the mindscrambler grenades) better than the 2 transonic blade loadout (but no mindscrambler grenades )
obsidiankatana wrote: I can't say this any other way - he's not a bad HQ, he simply doesn't bring enough that the army can't already do for the cost in my opinion.
And most of us cant say this any other way - we disagree with your opinion, and think hes a great addition to the army
commander dante wrote: Question:
Is having the Chordclaw+Transonic Razor loadout on Ruststalkers (and you have the mindscrambler grenades) better than the 2 transonic blade loadout (but no mindscrambler grenades )
I prefer that load out better, yes they lose 1 str, but they gain assault grenades, and a fleshbane attack
I mean, either way it's a moot point. If you're running CM and not just running pure Elimination Maniple and/or Numinous Conclave, you have to take a Dominus. Just kinda the way it is.
commander dante wrote: Question:
Is having the Chordclaw+Transonic Razor loadout on Ruststalkers (and you have the mindscrambler grenades) better than the 2 transonic blade loadout (but no mindscrambler grenades )
Yes. I can't think of a situation where you'd want two blades, because losing the grenades is HUGE.
Fair enough, Wren. I felt as if there was something lost in translation (or rather something assumed) in me calling him a tax. Great model. Good survivability, decent shooting, decent buffs, and as Req points out - mandatory in most situations.
Id also like to point out that he is the only HQ I can think of that can have a marine killing small blast that can be fired every turn. Actually, the more I look at it his damage output is actually very high. S6 ap3 small blast or S8 ap 1 shot, 5 shot bolter-esque weapon, ap 2 close combat weapon or a haywire weapon with a bonus I10 attack... his shooting is better than his close combat but ap2 CC is nothing to snuff off. He is kinda a weird jack of all trades
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, must take rustalkers with grenades. Assault grenades is definitely important, but also remember that they are also haywire, which gives them an anti tank option
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, side question. With something like the erradication ray, that has multiple profiles, do you choose the profile when at a range shown in both profiles?
Meaning, 0-12 is one profile, 12-24, another, you choose which one at 12 right?
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
Really? He can bring IWND and his innate repair ability to a Cybernetica Cohort, acting as an extra 2+/4++/LOS tank for the unit, also with the option to chuck out a S6 AP3 template if he's not repairing or helping split fire. Indeed the IWND/Repair combo can make any unit in the 'dex extremely difficult to eliminate, very useful for the not-actually-that-tough Destroyers, particularly the Plasma variant, and on top of that he boosts their morale resilience with his leadership. The Scryerskull relic is pretty much the only thing that can elevate Torsion Breachers to the point they're worth taking relative to the other options. Bearing in mind he's the only one that can take those relics. No slouch in CC either.
Seriously, if this is what you consider a tax HQ, what isn't a tax HQ outside Draigo-esque cheese-laden deathstar-enablers?
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
Really? He can bring IWND and his innate repair ability to a Cybernetica Cohort, acting as an extra 2+/4++/LOS tank for the unit, also with the option to chuck out a S6 AP3 template if he's not repairing or helping split fire. Indeed the IWND/Repair combo can make any unit in the 'dex extremely difficult to eliminate, very useful for the not-actually-that-tough Destroyers, particularly the Plasma variant, and on top of that he boosts their morale resilience with his leadership. The Scryerskull relic is pretty much the only thing that can elevate Torsion Breachers to the point they're worth taking relative to the other options. Bearing in mind he's the only one that can take those relics. No slouch in CC either.
Seriously, if this is what you consider a tax HQ, what isn't a tax HQ outside Draigo-esque cheese-laden deathstar-enablers?
Already touched on all of this. Read above. He's also not the only one capable of taking relics - Datasmiths can as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for the record, I do consider most HQs to be a tax.
Actually, side question. With something like the erradication ray, that has multiple profiles, do you choose the profile when at a range shown in both profiles?
Meaning, 0-12 is one profile, 12-24, another, you choose which one at 12 right?
I believe at 12 inches, you get to choose which profile you want to use.
Actually, side question. With something like the erradication ray, that has multiple profiles, do you choose the profile when at a range shown in both profiles?
Meaning, 0-12 is one profile, 12-24, another, you choose which one at 12 right?
I believe at 12 inches, you get to choose which profile you want to use.
On that note - if full size Eradication Rays scatter enough to shift a shot profile, does it change?
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
No. The profile is determined by the point you pick for it to be fired at.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
I would say no because the type of "ammunition" is chosen before the shot is fired.
Nother interesting question, under the vanguard and ranger sections it says "One skitarii vanguard may carry one of the following" does this mean only one of the wargear options may be chosen, or that only one may be chosen per model?
I would hope the latter, as the former would mean the enhanced data-tether will never be taken.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
I would say no because the type of "ammunition" is chosen before the shot is fired.
Nother interesting question, under the vanguard and ranger sections it says "One skitarii vanguard may carry one of the following" does this mean only one of the wargear options may be chosen, or that only one may be chosen per model?
I would hope the latter, as the former would mean the enhanced data-tether will never be taken.
It's the former. Same with any wargear/special replacement wording in other 'dexes too. Typically you won't need the Enhanced Data-Tether too if you have Ironstriders/Dragoons with the Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether (which doesn't stack) or an Onager.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
If you fire a plasma cannon at something 36" away and it scatters 4" further does it still hit?
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
If you fire a plasma cannon at something 36" away and it scatters 4" further does it still hit?
That is your answer.
That... what? That entirely depends on if there are still units under it, not the origin point of the shooter. This comparison does nothing to answer the question. Previous answers did. Plasma cannons don't have multiple range-dependent profiles.
Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that
Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden
Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?
If you fire a plasma cannon at something 36" away and it scatters 4" further does it still hit?
That is your answer.
That... what? That entirely depends on if there are still units under it, not the origin point of the shooter. This comparison does nothing to answer the question. Previous answers did. Plasma cannons don't have multiple range-dependent profiles.
No that is your answer,
You fire a plasma cannon at something. If it is 35" away you can fire it, if it is 37" away you cannont. If you end up scattering into somehting 37" away it still does damage.
You have a range profile of 12-24", you can only use that weapon profile on things 12"-24" away, but if it scatters out of that range profile it still does damage.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.
obsidiankatana wrote: Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.
Really? He can bring IWND and his innate repair ability to a Cybernetica Cohort, acting as an extra 2+/4++/LOS tank for the unit, also with the option to chuck out a S6 AP3 template if he's not repairing or helping split fire. Indeed the IWND/Repair combo can make any unit in the 'dex extremely difficult to eliminate, very useful for the not-actually-that-tough Destroyers, particularly the Plasma variant, and on top of that he boosts their morale resilience with his leadership. The Scryerskull relic is pretty much the only thing that can elevate Torsion Breachers to the point they're worth taking relative to the other options. Bearing in mind he's the only one that can take those relics. No slouch in CC either.
Seriously, if this is what you consider a tax HQ, what isn't a tax HQ outside Draigo-esque cheese-laden deathstar-enablers?
(1)Already touched on all of this. Read above. He's also not the only one capable of taking relics - Datasmiths can as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (2)And for the record, I do consider most HQs to be a tax.
1. Take a gander at the relics page again chief, only the Dominus can take the IWND and Scryerskull relics, they are not available to Datasmiths.
2. Ah OK, I think we've found the disconnect - you're a madman Kidding, kidding. This looks like an agree-to-disagree scenario though, because I just can't see the vast majority of HQ's in that light. Some might be better than others, but something is only a tax to my mind if it doesn't do anything at all useful itself and is merely a prerequisite for taking other things - even if CultMech had a basic formation like Skitarii I would still take a Dominus since he's essentially a Space Marine character with some nice extra abilities, gear, and access to the best Relics.
Speaking of relics. I keep looking at the Pater Radium and wonder just how effective it could be with a Vanguard squad.
And on that note what are the thoughts on vanguard charging T4 so taser infiltrators can double them out? Guessing it might not be worth it but I still think its intimidating.
As gar as the Dominus goes, just his sheer versatility would make him a auto include even if he wasn't mandatory. I love most that sticking him in the Kastelan's just makes them uber tough, just big robo bodyguards for the cyber pimp. I do understand seeing him as a sort point tax though.
Ir0njack wrote: Speaking of relics. I keep looking at the Pater Radium and wonder just how effective it could be with a Vanguard squad.
And on that note what are the thoughts on vanguard charging T4 so taser infiltrators can double them out? Guessing it might not be worth it but I still think its intimidating
I think its a completely valid tactic, but most T4 things have one wound, unless you're talking about Paladins and the ilk, in which case both squads are probably going to melt in close-combat against. I mean, I'm sure they could wreck a squad of Tyranid Warriors (T4 3W 4+), but using two squads in close combat to smack one squad of Warriors is kinda inefficient.
The only situation I can see this happening is if I do a disordered charge with my Vanguard against one unit, and have them catch a second unit in the split charge just to get the -1T, and then have the Infiltrators charge the second unit. But other than that, Vanguards shooting up one unit followed by a double-charge by them and a squad of Infiltrators is, IMHO, overkill.
There just simply aren't enough valid multi-wound T4 models that can't be resolved with a squad of Vanguard shooting and charging normally to justify doubling out.
The hard part with vanguard is getting them into assault with the right targets. I thought about the pater but it's just a matter of survival. Skitarii die very easily in general.
Also many abilities like reanimation and fnp are based on instant death threshold of something. Being able to put things like wraiths at t 4 where power fists will instant them out is huge.
As nice is Pater Radium is the only unit it really would work against are Wraiths. Everyone else you want to be shooting. Could work as a last resort but if you really want a T debuff play RW...
Requizen wrote:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.
You can't attach an IC to the Robots though.
You can if you play the formation, anyway they're joining the squishy Kataphrons...
Verviedi wrote:Draigo w/ Loth/ML3 GK Lib rolling on Telepathy + 5 Grav Destroyers + Dominus for Cognis and wound restoration?
Disgusting. 3 Source though, since Loth isn't GK. The lack of Split Fire is an issue though.
I'm reconsidering Power Fist Kastellans. In the formation they're one the few units that can go toe to toe with D-Lord and Trazyn led Wraiths, Adlance, Wolfstars, and Green Tide ork mobz and come out on top. They're weak against high str Force weapon attacks, however.
Also 4x Cognis Flamers that can shoot twice if stationary is nothing if not terrifying to any horde player.
Enigwolf wrote: I don't play Space Marines, but why Sevrin Loth? I just looked up his IA rules, is it because he can pick his powers rather than roll for them?
(If Droppod skitarii are still a thing in the new 'dex, I'm picking up SM as allies and doing Skitarii+SM+Assassin for Culexus...)
Being able to pick any three powers you want is huge.
His 2++ save thing he can get through expending a warp charge is nifty, but seriously, having the powers you want makes him easily the most reliable caster in the game.
Enigwolf wrote: I don't play Space Marines, but why Sevrin Loth? I just looked up his IA rules, is it because he can pick his powers rather than roll for them?
(If Droppod skitarii are still a thing in the new 'dex, I'm picking up SM as allies and doing Skitarii+SM+Assassin for Culexus...)
Being able to pick any three powers you want is huge.
His 2++ save thing he can get through expending a warp charge is nifty, but seriously, having the powers you want makes him easily the most reliable caster in the game.
Just go iron arm+warp speed and you have the almost the same CC stats as a Eversor (OH YEAH!) Assassin
Or you can go with the vortex of doom teleport stategy (which causes neckbeards to rage)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: As nice is Pater Radium is the only unit it really would work against are Wraiths. Everyone else you want to be shooting. Could work as a last resort but if you really want a T debuff play RW...
Requizen wrote:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.
You can't attach an IC to the Robots though.
You can if you play the formation, anyway they're joining the squishy Kataphrons...
Draigo or the Librarian can't, and they need to in order to Gate.
Okay looks like a miscommunication. ICs can't join Kastellan squads, it's true, but this is referring to attaching Draigo/the Libby to a squad of grav destroyers.
Why do people keep asking/wondering, if Drop-Pod Vanguard will be a thing? Isn't it moot what the new SM Codex says, since most of us just rent-a-pod with Flesh Tearers, anyway?
TranSpyre wrote: Okay looks like a miscommunication. ICs can't join Kastellan squads, it's true, but this is referring to attaching Draigo/the Libby to a squad of grav destroyers.
They can in the Cybernetica Cohort, as it's all considered one unit(but counts as three for purposes of Canticles)
But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)
Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.
Good job i only had the parts left over to make haywire then... :]
Reason i ask is because i have a comp in a fortnight and im desperately trying( or tried) to throw together a hard list!
Comp is 3 games, 1750 3 sources ( up to 2 detatchemnt/ primary equivalents and up to 2 secondary.
Missions are primary : maelstrom, secondary : eternal war : tertiary -usual 3.
Heres what i got;
Spoiler:
+++MECHAGONAWIN +++
PRIMARY DETATCHMENT : ADEPTUS MECHANICUS WAR CONVOCATION - Formation*
++ Skitarii: Battle Maniple ++
+ Troops +
Skitarii Rangers (65pts) [2x Arc rifle, Omnispex, 4x Skitarii Ranger]
Ranger Alpha [Arc maul, Arc pistol, Conversion field, Digital weapons, The Skull of Elder Nikola]
I'd take at least another one or two more Dragoons in that squad, if anything to take some heat off of your Ruststalkers and Infiltrators. 6 Str 8 attacks on the charge enough is nothing to snuff at, and even one landing a charge will cause havoc on your enemy. Two or three will give it more survivability.
I think Rangers have always been a toss up for Arc Rifles and Arquebuses, but if you're playing Arc Rifles, don't use them to hold backfield objectives. Play aggressive, and use your double-tap precision shots from Rapid Fire to your advantage.
Depending on your local meta, two AA Onagers may be a little overkill. Other than that, not much more flexibility to go with. It's all down to your battle tactics at that point in time. What are you putting in your drop-pods? I'm guessing your Skitarii troops and your Arc Breachers?
No, the reason for 1 dragoon is lack of pts! I had 3 in the list but couldnt fit it all in.
Heavy arc rifiles will sit in the back with the sang priest to hold objectives and snipe Armour.
The pods will have the grav + priest in one, haywire rangers in 2 and plasma vangaurd in 3.
Dragoon will just move up on objectives, i know they work best in numbers but like i said, you cant fit anymore of them in.
Knight will savage bikes/ MEQ with 15 ap3 shots, ( twinlnked for up to two turns as well.)
Onogars, i think 2 is worth it with the volume of skimmers and fmc out there and on the chance i do face them, ill have them there ready and waiting!
Scouts will win me every game with there boltguns.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Why do people keep asking/wondering, if Drop-Pod Vanguard will be a thing? Isn't it moot what the new SM Codex says, since most of us just rent-a-pod with Flesh Tearers, anyway?
Because it keeps the 50 precent of the people like me who would never paint their drop pods or guys flesh tearers just to use pods from using them. Now that I could use them with my already existing imperial fist drop pods, its one less objection to using them. Also any changes that make the powerful no drawback options more attractive are not a good thing.
Wilson wrote: But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)
Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.
The Haywire guns are still S6 though and twice the shots, so good against non vehicles still.
Wilson wrote: But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)
Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.
The Haywire guns are still S6 though and twice the shots, so good against non vehicles still.
Normally, this would be true what with Torsion only being one shot. However, with Canticles' ability to reroll your hits, it's slightly more appealing. Slightly. Not enough to convince me though.
Wilson wrote: But isnt torsion more of a jack of all trades? Haywire is great, but that is covered by a unit of rangers from the skitarii battle maniple. ( in my list for example.)
Torsion works well on both light armour and mc's, dont you think? Haywire is great but if you face demons/ nids its kinda wasted.
and torison is wasted against high AV and single wound models.
Its range is also less.
I suppose it is a little more jack of all trades, but it isnt very good against anything
Haywire works much better against any type of armor. Then if the armor isnt there, you have some str6 dakka on a sub optimal unit.
gameandwatch wrote: Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike
Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!
gameandwatch wrote: Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike
Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!
* with a little luck
Or you can just take destroyers with grav cannons and have superior firepower.
gameandwatch wrote: Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike
Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!
* with a little luck
Or you can just take destroyers with grav cannons and have superior firepower.
I don't remember, but did anyone math-hammer the numbers of heavy grav vs. heavy arc against different AV values? If not, I can go do that.
gameandwatch wrote: Remember that haywire is also S6 ap5, which is pretty decent against both monstrous creatures and infantry alike
Exactly. Remember that other weapons sitting in the Str 6 range include Scatter Lasers (Str 6 AP 6) and Assault Cannons (Str 6 AP 4, granted, they're Rending too). Sure, they may have more shots, but your weapon has haywire! You can mow down infantry and pop Land Raiders*!
* with a little luck
Or you can just take destroyers with grav cannons and have superior firepower.
I don't remember, but did anyone math-hammer the numbers of heavy grav vs. heavy arc against different AV values? If not, I can go do that.
1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP 18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized
1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP 6 shots: 1.98 HP Pen: 0.083 HP 6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result
Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.
I mean honestly, I have been considering throwing in 2 squads of haywire breachers and a dominus with the cult detachment, which will not only get me the middle canticle bonus with my cohort, but will also allow me to use a canticle twice, and gives me better range and general AT than my haywire vanguard. In that sense, I will instead swap out the haywire vanguard for a full squad of regular vanguard for the same cost to be anti infantry and and MC
Thoughts are left after the specific unit, I would also be careful with all the conversion fields. Its not hard to roll two 4s in a row.
Skitarii Rangers (65pts) [2x Arc rifle, Omnispex, 4x Skitarii Ranger]
Ranger Alpha [Arc maul, Arc pistol, Conversion field, Digital weapons, The Skull of Elder Nikola] - whatever here
Skitarii Vanguard (100pts) [Omnispex, 3x Plasma caliver, 9x Skitarii Vanguard]
Vanguard Alpha [Arc maul, Conversion field, Digital weapons, Radium carbine, The Omniscient Mask] - I would put the Phosphoenix here since it is the plasma unit, same type of target
+ Elites +
Sicarian Infiltrators (185pts) [Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads, 4x Sicarian Infiltrator]
Infiltrator Princeps [Conversion field, Digital weapons, Infoslave Skull, Phosphoenix] - Skull Here
Sicarian Ruststalkers (160pts) [4x Sicarian Ruststalker, Transonic razor, Chordclaw, and Mindscrambler Grenades]
Ruststalker Princeps [Conversion field, Digital weapons, Pater Radium, Prehensile Dataspike] - Put the Omniscient Mask here
+ Fast Attack +
Sydonian Dragoons (45pts)
Sydonian Dragoon [Phosphor serpenta, Taser lance] - I would switch this to the ballistari, for that sweet sweet cognis autocannon
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus (105pts) [Macrostubber, Volkite blaster, Conversion Field, Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Digital Weapons, Infoslave Skull][WARLORD] - Autocaduceus is not going to do much in this list, I would get the scryer skull instead
+ Lord of War +
Knight Warden (375pts) [meltagun, Reaper Chainsword, Stormspear Rocket Pod] - I would leave this as the stubber instead of the meltagun, you want it for firing at seperate targets, dont want to increase your charge range.
Enigwolf wrote: 1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP 18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized
1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP 6 shots: 1.98 HP Pen: 0.083 HP 6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result
Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.
a little bit better for arc rifles against low AV, because if you roll a 1 on haywire str6 can still glance/pen on it's own.
Enigwolf wrote: 1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP 18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized
1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP 6 shots: 1.98 HP Pen: 0.083 HP 6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result
Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.
a little bit better for arc rifles against low AV, because if you roll a 1 on haywire str6 can still glance/pen on it's own.
Enigwolf wrote: 1 shot Grav @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
AV (X): 0.083 HP 18 shots: 1.5 HP + Immobilized
1 shot Arc @ BS3
To-hit: 0.50
Glance: 0.33 HP 6 shots: 1.98 HP Pen: 0.083 HP 6 shots: 0.5 HP + Pen Result
Total: 2.48 HP + Pen Result
Turns out I forgot that Grav and Haywire don't care about your AV. Unless my math is failing me, it seems that Arc does a better job of killing vehicles. But Grav weapons have the upper hand when it comes to killing infantry. So it comes down to specialization in killing vehicles vs general ability to kill vehicles and infantry.
a little bit better for arc rifles against low AV, because if you roll a 1 on haywire str6 can still glance/pen on it's own.
edges str6 haywire up ever so slightly.
So if you're fighting AV... 7?
No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.
str 6 needs a 4 to glance.
So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166
Exergy wrote: No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.
str 6 needs a 4 to glance.
So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166
Not... how haywire works, unless I'm misunderstanding. You don't roll haywire, then roll penetration. It's one roll - but on a 2-5 you glance and on a 6 you pen, unless you would otherwise pen on natural weapon strength.
Exergy wrote: No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.
str 6 needs a 4 to glance.
So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166
Not... how haywire works, unless I'm misunderstanding. You don't roll haywire, then roll penetration. It's one roll - but on a 2-5 you glance and on a 6 you pen, unless you would otherwise pen on natural weapon strength.
Yeah, he's right here. Haywire roll is rolled instead of an armour penetration roll when rolled against vehicles.
Exergy wrote: No against AV10 if you roll a 1 on your haywire roll, as in the haywire bit does nothing then your str6 could still potentially cause damage.
str 6 needs a 4 to glance.
So instead of getting a damage result .8333 it gets a damage result against AV10 .9166
Not... how haywire works, unless I'm misunderstanding. You don't roll haywire, then roll penetration. It's one roll - but on a 2-5 you glance and on a 6 you pen, unless you would otherwise pen on natural weapon strength.
Yeah, he's right here. Haywire roll is rolled instead of an armour penetration roll when rolled against vehicles.
I thought it was additional, guess i need to reread some things
Elites
x5 sicarian infiltrators, flechette blasters and tazer goads 185
x5 sicarian ruststalkers, chordclaws, transonic razors and mindscrambler grenades 160
Heavy Support
Onager dunecrawler, neutron laser and cognis heavy stubber, extra stubber 120
Onager dunecrawler, neutron laser and cognis heavy stubber, extra stubber 120
Cohort Cybernetica
Dominus, autocadeus of arkhan land, eradication ray 150
x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith, Raiment of the technomartyr 350
x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith 320
TOTAL: 1860
Tryin to figure out how to drop 10 points, as I REALLY dont want to lose the eradication ray of the dominus. For personal and tactical reasons. Maybe the extra dunecrawler stubbers?
Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.
Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.
Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)
gameandwatch wrote: Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.
Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.
Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)
If you have the points to toss in a Culexus, they're the perfect psyker-counter. Although you'll need to also ally in something to give you warp charges to harness for the Culexus' weapon.
gameandwatch wrote: Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.
Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.
Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)
If you have the points to toss in a Culexus, they're the perfect psyker-counter. Although you'll need to also ally in something to give you warp charges to harness for the Culexus' weapon.
Oh I like the celexus, and understand how crazy good he is, and would probably have him in my competitive list...but the eversor holds a special place in my heart.
gameandwatch wrote: Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.
Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.
Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)
If you have the points to toss in a Culexus, they're the perfect psyker-counter. Although you'll need to also ally in something to give you warp charges to harness for the Culexus' weapon.
Oh I like the celexus, and understand how crazy good he is, and would probably have him in my competitive list...but the eversor holds a special place in my heart.
Oh I completely understand. The Vindicare is the one close to my heart... pity about him taking such a nerf in the Assassins update though. That said, I'm trying to see if I can squeeze the new SM 'dex as allies for a War Convocation, and then take a Culexus. Likely won't fit in at 1850, but 2000 it would. It would mean no Kastelans, though :(
So, after a car accident, this weekend, forced me to miss my 40k Team Tournament, and left me in a horrid mood, I felt the need to do something cathartic.
I splurged a little, and bought a box of Skitarii Infiltrators and Rust-stalkers... meaning I now own the "one of everything" required to run the God-formation Battle Cohort... thing.... in 40k.
So, I haven't followed, but it looks like Reece at Frontline just fit everything in at 1850pts... Can the formation be effective at 1500pts?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Its 1330 minimum. If you take a Gallant, 2 units of brachers and a dragoon.
So, two things...
1. Can I still find the White Dwarf? What issue is it? Our venue likes you having a physical copy of rules.
2. Where are the rest of points best spent? My inclination would be to get Fleshtearers and a few pods in there, but it looks unattainable, at that size of game. So, fill out Vanguards instead?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Its 1330 minimum. If you take a Gallant, 2 units of brachers and a dragoon.
So, two things...
1. Can I still find the White Dwarf? What issue is it? Our venue likes you having a physical copy of rules.
2. Where are the rest of points best spent? My inclination would be to get Fleshtearers and a few pods in there, but it looks unattainable, at that size of game. So, fill out Vanguards instead?
1. White Dwarf 69, looks like its still being sold online.
2: Filling out squads, adding another dunecrawler. Probably not enough for another detatchment.
So I wanted to run this list by you guys that I have developed for Competitive play as there are a few local tournaments upcoming in my area and FLGS. Basically I have dubbed this the "Bloodtari" since it is as you can guess taking advantage of the Blood Angels Flesh Tearers Formation. Let me know what you guys think and thanks for the advice, learned so much on this thread!
BLOOD-TARI:
Spoiler:
C.A.D & Formations:
-Skitarii Maniple
-Cult Mechanics
-x2 Flesh Tearers Strike Force
HQ:
-Tech Priest Dominus
-Sanguinary Priest
-Sanguinary Priest
TROOPS:
-x5 Scouts
*w/ Bolters
-x5 Scouts
*w/ Bolters
-x4 Squads of Skitarii Vanguard
*w/ x5 Vanguard, x2 Arc Rifles, x1 Arc Pistol, Omnispex
-Drop Pod
-x3 Squads of Skitarii Vanguard
*w/ x10 Vanguard, x3 Plasma Calivers, Omnispex
-Drop Pod
-x3 Kataphron Destroyers *Sanguinary Priest Here* *Dominus Here*
*w/ x3 Heavy Grav Cannons, x3 Phosphor Blasters
-Drop Pod
-x3 Kataphron Destroyers *Sanguinary Priest Here*
*w/ x3 Heavy Grav Cannons, x3 Phosphor Blasters
-Drop Pod
I fail to see how it is improperly formatted when everything is in its designed slot based on the FOC? I can tone it down but it is by no means improper format. And in regards to dealing with Anti-Air basically I would ignore it and focus on lighting up my opponent on the ground.
gmaleron wrote: I fail to see how it is improperly formatted when everything is in its designed slot based on the FOC? I can tone it down but it is by no means improper format. And in regards to dealing with Anti-Air basically I would ignore it and focus on lighting up my opponent on the ground.
Like any alpha-strike drop pod list, the one army you'll struggle against is a full air-mobile Elysian drop troops force. (I still find it humorous that my "joke" glass cannon army is actually impressively good against drop pod armies...)
gmaleron wrote: I fail to see how it is improperly formatted when everything is in its designed slot based on the FOC? I can tone it down but it is by no means improper format. And in regards to dealing with Anti-Air basically I would ignore it and focus on lighting up my opponent on the ground.
Like any alpha-strike drop pod list, the one army you'll struggle against is a full air-mobile Elysian drop troops force. (I still find it humorous that my "joke" glass cannon army is actually impressively good against drop pod armies...)
If you look at my Signature you can see I ALSO run an Elysian Air Cav army so I know exactly what you mean!
gmaleron wrote: I fail to see how it is improperly formatted when everything is in its designed slot based on the FOC? I can tone it down but it is by no means improper format. And in regards to dealing with Anti-Air basically I would ignore it and focus on lighting up my opponent on the ground.
Like any alpha-strike drop pod list, the one army you'll struggle against is a full air-mobile Elysian drop troops force. (I still find it humorous that my "joke" glass cannon army is actually impressively good against drop pod armies...)
If you look at my Signature you can see I ALSO run an Elysian Air Cav army so I know exactly what you mean!
Drop pod armies rely too much on tabling their opponents... Oops.
gameandwatch wrote: Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.
Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.
Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)
If you have the points to toss in a Culexus, they're the perfect psyker-counter. Although you'll need to also ally in something to give you warp charges to harness for the Culexus' weapon.
Oh I like the celexus, and understand how crazy good he is, and would probably have him in my competitive list...but the eversor holds a special place in my heart.
Oh I completely understand. The Vindicare is the one close to my heart... pity about him taking such a nerf in the Assassins update though. That said, I'm trying to see if I can squeeze the new SM 'dex as allies for a War Convocation, and then take a Culexus. Likely won't fit in at 1850, but 2000 it would. It would mean no Kastelans, though :(
You could take the SM Librarius formation with 3 libbies, that should give you loads of WCs for the Culexus without having to pay a Troop tax.
gameandwatch wrote: Eventually I might drop either a dunecrawler, or the third vanguard squad to throw in an eversor assassin. Really because this is my first imperium army in 10 years (not a fan of imperium) and the eversor assassin is like one of my favorite things... Frenzon crazed berserker that explodes after death is just...so great, even if he is not that good.
Probably hurts the list a bunch, but what can you do, when you want something you want something.
Also, I plan on using the extra skitarii parts to convert a custom eversor, so that should be fun! (Im looking at you russtalker bitz)
If you have the points to toss in a Culexus, they're the perfect psyker-counter. Although you'll need to also ally in something to give you warp charges to harness for the Culexus' weapon.
Oh I like the celexus, and understand how crazy good he is, and would probably have him in my competitive list...but the eversor holds a special place in my heart.
Oh I completely understand. The Vindicare is the one close to my heart... pity about him taking such a nerf in the Assassins update though. That said, I'm trying to see if I can squeeze the new SM 'dex as allies for a War Convocation, and then take a Culexus. Likely won't fit in at 1850, but 2000 it would. It would mean no Kastelans, though :(
You could take the SM Librarius formation with 3 libbies, that should give you loads of WCs for the Culexus without having to pay a Troop tax.
Just looked it up. Holy crap. That is perfect. No FA slots for drop pods though... Hmmm.
At the moment it's just BA and Space Wolves I think (pods are FA slots rather than dedicated transports)... but it's expected to become SM-wide with the new dex.
gmaleron wrote: So I wanted to run this list by you guys that I have developed for Competitive play as there are a few local tournaments upcoming in my area and FLGS. Basically I have dubbed this the "Bloodtari" since it is as you can guess taking advantage of the Blood Angels Flesh Tearers Formation. Let me know what you guys think and thanks for the advice, learned so much on this thread!
BLOOD-TARI:
Spoiler:
C.A.D & Formations:
-Skitarii Maniple
-Cult Mechanics
-x2 Flesh Tearers Strike Force
HQ:
-Tech Priest Dominus
-Sanguinary Priest
-Sanguinary Priest
TROOPS:
-x5 Scouts
*w/ Bolters
-x5 Scouts
*w/ Bolters
-x4 Squads of Skitarii Vanguard
*w/ x5 Vanguard, x2 Arc Rifles, x1 Arc Pistol, Omnispex
-Drop Pod
-x3 Squads of Skitarii Vanguard
*w/ x10 Vanguard, x3 Plasma Calivers, Omnispex
-Drop Pod
-x3 Kataphron Destroyers *Sanguinary Priest Here* *Dominus Here*
*w/ x3 Heavy Grav Cannons, x3 Phosphor Blasters
-Drop Pod
-x3 Kataphron Destroyers *Sanguinary Priest Here*
*w/ x3 Heavy Grav Cannons, x3 Phosphor Blasters
-Drop Pod
TOTAL ARMY: 2000 POINTS
Model Count:
-x63 Infantry
-x6 Heavy Infantry
-x9 Drop Pods
Are the tournaments using major event formats? Would be illegal at all of them due to 4 detachments and duplicate flesh tearers.
Also your plan for 3x kataphrons + sang priest + Dominus in a pod is illegal (kataphrons take up 3 slots)
gmaleron wrote: So I wanted to run this list by you guys that I have developed for Competitive play as there are a few local tournaments upcoming in my area and FLGS. Basically I have dubbed this the "Bloodtari" since it is as you can guess taking advantage of the Blood Angels Flesh Tearers Formation. Let me know what you guys think and thanks for the advice, learned so much on this thread!
BLOOD-TARI:
Spoiler:
C.A.D & Formations:
-Skitarii Maniple
-Cult Mechanics
-x2 Flesh Tearers Strike Force
HQ:
-Tech Priest Dominus
-Sanguinary Priest
-Sanguinary Priest
TROOPS:
-x5 Scouts
*w/ Bolters
-x5 Scouts
*w/ Bolters
-x4 Squads of Skitarii Vanguard
*w/ x5 Vanguard, x2 Arc Rifles, x1 Arc Pistol, Omnispex
-Drop Pod
-x3 Squads of Skitarii Vanguard
*w/ x10 Vanguard, x3 Plasma Calivers, Omnispex
-Drop Pod
-x3 Kataphron Destroyers *Sanguinary Priest Here* *Dominus Here*
*w/ x3 Heavy Grav Cannons, x3 Phosphor Blasters
-Drop Pod
-x3 Kataphron Destroyers *Sanguinary Priest Here*
*w/ x3 Heavy Grav Cannons, x3 Phosphor Blasters
-Drop Pod
TOTAL ARMY: 2000 POINTS
Model Count:
-x63 Infantry
-x6 Heavy Infantry
-x9 Drop Pods
Are the tournaments using major event formats? Would be illegal at all of them due to 4 detachments and duplicate flesh tearers.
Also your plan for 3x kataphrons + sang priest + Dominus in a pod is illegal (kataphrons take up 3 slots)
Also don't kataphrons have FnP anyway so the priest is redundant?
With the base Space Marine book having rentapod in FA slots, are Blood angels still the best army to do it?
Depends on army build restrictions and what you want to pod. But even with unlimited duplicates allowed detachments, getting 6 pods with only a sang priest and 5 scouts as the entry fee makes it worth considering over SM with Lib, 2x scouts for only 3 pods.
Has anyone figured out a use for Electro-Priests yet? I love the models and the fluff, but the crunch just seems terrible. I think the melee variant (Fulgurites?) would be pretty decent if you could just get them into melee alive, but the short-ranged shooters (Corpuscari?) seem to have no possible purpose: 12" range, no AP, and don't really benefit from most of the Canticles because they're already Twin-Linked Zealots with a 5++. Anyone actually run these and can talk about their uses?
SisterSydney wrote: Has anyone figured out a use for Electro-Priests yet? I love the models and the fluff, but the crunch just seems terrible. I think the melee variant (Fulgurites?) would be pretty decent if you could just get them into melee alive, but the short-ranged shooters (Corpuscari?) seem to have no possible purpose: 12" range, no AP, and don't really benefit from most of the Canticles because they're already Twin-Linked Zealots with a 5++. Anyone actually run these and can talk about their uses?
There's a new Space Marines formation that can help them. It's 3 Land Raiders, and if they're close to one another they ignore every roll on the Vehicle Damage chart other than Explodes!
So, expensive (Land Raiders are ~200 a pop), but you can just slot 3 heavy transports into your Cult Mechanicus army and give nice Assault Vehicles to your Priests that can't be immobilized or stunned. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much for the whole "Expensive T3 models with only 5++ and FNP" thing. Maybe give them someone with Invisibility or other buffing powers.
16 of them in a Land Raider Crusader? Problem is I can't see a delivery system which is worth the points. I just don't see the point in putting an objectively overpriced and ineffective unit in a overcosted, ineffective vehicle with dies to Meltaguns.
Are there any other open-topped or assault transports in the IoM list?
Verviedi wrote: 16 of them in a Land Raider Crusader? Problem is I can't see a delivery system which is worth the points. I just don't see the point in putting an objectively overpriced and ineffective unit in a overcosted, ineffective vehicle with dies to Meltaguns.
Are there any other open-topped or assault transports in the IoM list)
Hm, isn't at least one of the Flyers an Assault Vehicle? In one of the Astartes books, not sure which one. Maybe not, I'm not too well versed in IoM, the only one I know is Land Raiders.
I would assume there's a Forge World vehicle out there that's Assault, but again, I know even less about those than Codex ones.
Stormravens.
I never actually though about using one of those, but I have a feeling they would die even more easily, being only AV12. Having the tranpsport have the chance to arrive turn 4, and the EPs not be able to charge until the turn after that, that's a T3 charge assuming the SRaven arrives on turn 2.
I guess it depends on how good you consider Stormravens by themselves, and how badly you want to make Electro-Priests work.
I don't think there's any real way to make them good. If you start looking to ally things in to make them work, then why aren't you using other Assault things in the IoM? Death Company, or Vanguard Vets (who just got a buff), or even the blatantly strong things like TWC.
They're one of those units that can be made better, but there's really no way to make them objectively great.
I will never use Electro-Priests. I despise their aesthetics, their rules are bad, and when I run pure AdMech, my Sicarians and Dragoons are perfectly good at assault.
It it sad though, just awesome models but don't see myself buying any untill the next dex which hopefully makes them decent if not good.
As it stands IMO not only are they not good they're not even decent. Sure you can run 20 man mobs but the lack of mobility, fragility, and poor performance even in combat just makes them nowhere near the points cost. Drop the cost 10 or 8 pts and I'd find it reasonable but without a effective means to get them across the board It would still be a iffy choice.
I had thought about Electro preist with invisibility shenanigans but even then, meh.
hey guys I need help on how to equip my skitarii Alphas and Princeps (weapons and relics)
I'm using the War Convocation formation from WD so upgrades cost is not a problem
I'm runing the minimum for my Skitarii Battle Maniple, so two alphas (vanguard squad = 2x plasmas, rangers = 1x arc, 1x arquebus) and two princeps (ruststalker, infiltrator)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit - the Ruststalker Princeps should grab a Dataspike, Conversion Field, and the Rent-A-Chaplain relic mask. Infiltrator Princeps grabs Conversion Field, Haywire Skull, and the servo-whatever upgrade for +1 Ld.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And maybe toss the Peter Radium at the Vanguard Alpha.
I'm thinking about the 3 Land Raider formation with the Killclade formation's 3 Rustalkers. Or would two Vanguard units in a Maniple be better than one Infiltrator unit in the Killclade?
Then I still have ~400 points for another detachment. What compliments Land Raiders well? Maybe the 3 Librarian Conclave? Imperial Guard bubble wrap blobs? Piles of Ironstrider Dragoons? An Imperial Knight?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit - the Ruststalker Princeps should grab a Dataspike, Conversion Field, and the Rent-A-Chaplain relic mask. Infiltrator Princeps grabs Conversion Field, Haywire Skull, and the servo-whatever upgrade for +1 Ld.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And maybe toss the Peter Radium at the Vanguard Alpha.
Hey guys another list to throw at you that I was able to play test today thanks to a few donations from our FLGS Owner and another Skitarii player (they are gushing over Marines so I could use their stuff). I ran the following list below at 2000pts. against my buddies Tyranids:
-x41 Infantry
-x6 Kataphrons
-x12 Dragoons
-x3 Iron Striders
My buddy took a list with several medium sized swarms of Homogaunts, a Tervigon, a Hive Tyrant on foot with Bodyguard, a few units of Hive Guard, some small MSU units of Warriors and a few Mawlocs and Tervigons on top of a few flying bugs (cant remember which type). Needless to say this list DOMINATED his poor bugs, I never realized how potent the Dragoons are on the charge, especially in combination with Vanguard and the -1 toughness. The Grav Kataphrons are amazing as well especially with the Canticles, however his Mawloc did eat a whole squad of them in one gulp! Has anyone considered running something similar to this?
A.They don't have the mobility to get themselves across the table. This however can be solved with allies.
B. The fulgarites are a dedicated assault that would be destroyed by any other dedicated assault unit. The corpuscari have a underwhelming 12" range that even exploding 6's cant fix.
C. Guardsman level statline with the exception of the Fulg WS and Copr BS amd the two attacks. This leaves them just ill equipped to be close to anything like they need to be. T3 will make their FNP just feel like it's not even they most of the time. The 5++ may keep some alive but as a man that deals with 5's as his main army's majority save, dont count on it.
D. Points, they are just too expensive for what they bring to the table. They seriously feel.... unfinished. Maybe if they had T4 and a rule like Dunestrider I would see them in a better light but I'm not paying a 18 ppm for Electro guardmen.
Atleast they have zealot they so casualties won't be a problem when they eventually are run in friendly games. I just dont see a place for these guys. They are martian Mandrakes.
Also a possibility. I constantly forget the thing exists.
Works best with infultrators as they are the only unit that should get anywhere near 6" of the enemy.
Give rustalkers pateradium
Is this one of the codices where characters can carry multiple relics? Never had the inclination to do it, so never had to check. I feel the Mask is better than the Radium on Stalkers.
Traditionally, when there is a "bad unit that can be made better", it's because the things that make the unit poor can be made up in some way. If they're slow and vulnerable walking, give them a transport. If they're prone to getting focus fired, give them invisibility (or in the case of Daemons, Grimoire). If they're not Fearless, find a character to give them Fearless. If they can't ignore armor, get a character in there with a Power Weapon or something.
Electro-Priests have all of these issues: Slow on the ground with no way to move forward quickly. Only AP4 weapons, only a moderate amount of attacks to make up for it. Low survivability, especially to focus fire. They are Fearless, but that's about it for them.
If you give them all of the things to make up for this (Psyker for Invis, transport, Characters with Weapons, etc), you still have the issue that these guys are more expensive than a Space Marine and don't put out nearly enough damage to make up for it. So, they're pretty high on the expense end, and then you have to spend more points (and Allies, as you can't get Transports or Invis or good Assault ICs in AdMech) making them "good enough to bring".
If you're already taking the steps to ally things in to make them good, you could just lessen your burden by bringing actually decent units that fill the same role in other Imperium armies. And if you don't want to ally, then there's not enough tools in AdMech to make them even just decent. So, again, tl;dr no
Also a possibility. I constantly forget the thing exists.
Works best with infultrators as they are the only unit that should get anywhere near 6" of the enemy.
Give rustalkers pateradium
Is this one of the codices where characters can carry multiple relics? Never had the inclination to do it, so never had to check. I feel the Mask is better than the Radium on Stalkers.
Aside from list discussions on the whole, what have been people's thoughts on Infiltrators and Rust-Stalkers?
They were the one unit from the Skitarii book that I hadn't even bought until the War Congregation came out, but I will say that watching the streams for Reece from Front-Line Gaming, really opened my eyes to the potential, at the least, of Infiltrators.
Do they have places in general lists, when allies are considered, or do they only earn their points in pure Ad-Mech lists?
I tend to run Skitarii with Blood Angels, or Space Wolves, and of course now with Cult Mechanicus. The first two mean that I don't lack for good assault options
I've found the Ruststalkers to be mean, but only when they actually make it in. Speed isn't a problem, but T3/4+/6++/5+++ is begging to die. Resilient to small arms to a degree, but anything in the Scatlaser/Autocannon family tears them up real fast (as does AP4). Haven't used Infiltrators yet.
They're not bad units, but you gotta play smart since they're fragile for assualt, much better than Priests, but stll need to be protected. They're fast though
Thanks!
I wish 
Consider most things have 0 potential to 1 shot a knight, and then .9% is pretty decent per shot. It only gets better where you look at tournaments where there are no D weapons, or D weapons are modified to do significantly less damage.
