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Feel No Pain can now be taken against anything that doesn't cause instant death. Boneswords ignore armor and cause instant death on a failed leadership test.

Would they get FnP at all? Would they always get FnP? Would they only get FnP after they passed a leadership test and failed any invulnerable save?
   
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Irked Necron Immortal





Washington, USA

If you pass the leadership test, you should be allowed to make a FnP roll. Unless, of course, the Str hitting you would inflict ID anyways.
That's how I read the rules.


 
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

A similar question has come up before. Personally, I'm of the opinion, that the order of operation is:
Take invulnerable saves.
Roll for FNP.
Take Leadership test.

I believe that FNP (timing wise) occurs exactly like in 5th ed. YMMV.

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I would second that.

Failed save,
FNP
Test or die

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The Hive Mind





And if you pass FnP you don't test.

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The Midlands

Happyjew wrote:A similar question has come up before. Personally, I'm of the opinion, that the order of operation is:
Take invulnerable saves.
Roll for FNP.
Take Leadership test.

I believe that FNP (timing wise) occurs exactly like in 5th ed. YMMV.


The way I read FNP now is you roll it before you take a save. "Roll a D6 each time an Unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal. On a 5+ the Wound is discounted - treat it as being saved."

So you have your pool of wounds allocated as normal. Roll FNP first, then take your save.

I fail to see if this makes much of a difference though.

 
   
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Utah

This is just like a force weapon. Bonesword rules state as soon as you suffer an unsaved wound you immediately take the leadership test or suffer ID. Immediately is the important word here. It means as soon as the condition is met you take no other action and complete the requirements. At that point you take your leadership test, if you pass you take your FNP and move on. If you fail the weapon causes ID and you do not get FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
phantommaster wrote:
Happyjew wrote:A similar question has come up before. Personally, I'm of the opinion, that the order of operation is:
Take invulnerable saves.
Roll for FNP.
Take Leadership test.

I believe that FNP (timing wise) occurs exactly like in 5th ed. YMMV.


The way I read FNP now is you roll it before you take a save. "Roll a D6 each time an Unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal. On a 5+ the Wound is discounted - treat it as being saved."

So you have your pool of wounds allocated as normal. Roll FNP first, then take your save.

I fail to see if this makes much of a difference though.

You cannot have an unsaved wound until you fail any saves you are allowed. You do not get to premptively take your FNP before failing your armor/invulnerable save because at that point the wound is not unsaved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 14:18:22


 
   
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The Hive Mind





Captain Antivas wrote:This is just like a force weapon. Bonesword rules state as soon as you suffer an unsaved wound you immediately take the leadership test or suffer ID. Immediately is the important word here. It means as soon as the condition is met you take no other action and complete the requirements. At that point you take your leadership test, if you pass you take your FNP and move on. If you fail the weapon causes ID and you do not get FNP.

Oh, hi exact same argument from 5th edition.
And this is why this argument will never be settled.

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Utah

rigeld2 wrote:
Captain Antivas wrote:This is just like a force weapon. Bonesword rules state as soon as you suffer an unsaved wound you immediately take the leadership test or suffer ID. Immediately is the important word here. It means as soon as the condition is met you take no other action and complete the requirements. At that point you take your leadership test, if you pass you take your FNP and move on. If you fail the weapon causes ID and you do not get FNP.

Oh, hi exact same argument from 5th edition.
And this is why this argument will never be settled.


I don't see how this is unclear. Immediately after suffering an unsaved wound you take a Leadership test and suffer ID if you fail. It is now an unsaved wound that causes ID. Denies FNP. What part of the FNP rule says it is taken immediately after the unsaved wound is suffered? And I mean immediately. It is perfectly clear.
   
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when a model suffers an unsaved wound....


There is a question about when does that come into effect
   
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Ireland

Not really, an unsaved wound is one you cannot make a save against or one you have failed a save against. FNP is before you declare a wound to be unsaved.

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New Jersey

liturgies of blood wrote:Not really, an unsaved wound is one you cannot make a save against or one you have failed a save against. FNP is before you declare a wound to be unsaved.


In addition, FNP is not a save(I'm pritty sure its not mentioned as a save under the BRB text) So anything that would be affected from the failed Cover/Armor/Invuln. save would happen and affect the model before FNP gets its chance.

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...that's from FnP's rule, as far as I remember...anyway, the huge debate is whether the word "when" comes before the word "after" or "immediately after"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goat wrote:
liturgies of blood wrote:Not really, an unsaved wound is one you cannot make a save against or one you have failed a save against. FNP is before you declare a wound to be unsaved.


In addition, FNP is not a save(I'm pritty sure its not mentioned as a save under the BRB text) So anything that would be affected from the failed Cover/Armor/Invuln. save would happen and affect the model before FNP gets its chance.


Unfortunately, a lot of the special rules that are conflicting with FnP state that a model suffers a wound, which FnP can negate.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/27 15:19:08


 
   
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Utah

I'm pretty sure the word "immediately" is there to clarify this. Why put it in if its intent is not to precede other rules.
   
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Does Remove Casualties still say immediately?

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Regular Dakkanaut




You still get a FnP save vs boneswords or force weapons (including NFW that haven't been activated yet). If the FnP save is made the. Wound is treated as saved and that creates a paradox as when the wound was inflicted it wasn't ID so FnP still gets it chance. That's my take.
   
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RatLord wrote:I'm pretty sure the word "immediately" is there to clarify this. Why put it in if its intent is not to precede other rules.

but if the phrase goes something like "Immediately after a model suffers an unsaved wound" or "when a model suffers an unsaved wound, a unit can do X immediately after", the question becomes does "When a model suffers an unsaved wound, do this" mean that it is part of suffering a wound?

There has been a long debate on topics like this, it isn't as clear-cut as people make it out to be.
   
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liturgies of blood wrote:Not really, an unsaved wound is one you cannot make a save against or one you have failed a save against. FNP is before you declare a wound to be unsaved.


No, FnP is triggered by an Unsaved Wound. FnP is not a save. It is a roll that allows you to ignore an unsaved wound.



The proper order(from looking at the imperative language of the Bonesword Entry) is as follows.

Take Invuln Save(if any)

Take Ld test for each wound caused by the Bonesword.

For every Ld test that was passed, you are allowed FnP. For each test that was failed, you cannot take FnP and suffer ID. Unless you have Eternal Warrior, in which case you ignore the ID effect and may take FnP.

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Chicago, IL

That is not correct Grey Templar.

FNP is first. then all other effects that trigger off of Unsaved wounds.

This is due to the wording of FNP.

"On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." P.35

If we treat it [the unsaved Wound] as having been saved, then we can not trigger anything that triggers off of an unsaved wound, because the wound is no longer unsaved.

I am glad they fixed the wording of FNP.

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What?

Thats utterly rediclous.

That just means you don't suffer the wound. It was still an unsaved wound.


Boneswords and FnP have the same trigger, an unsaved wound.

But Boneswords say "immediatly", FnP does not.

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SLC, UT

The paradox is cause by FNP going second
If it works, the would is not longer unsaved and thus boneswords/force weapons wouldnt work. I feel like the fnp wording in 6th fixes this issue and the wound is not ID and fnp applies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To help, this is similar to the runes of witnessing discarding the highest die. It never existed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/27 19:54:13


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Utah

DeathReaper wrote:That is not correct Grey Templar.

FNP is first. then all other effects that trigger off of Unsaved wounds.

This is due to the wording of FNP.

"On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." P.35

If we treat it [the unsaved Wound] as having been saved, then we can not trigger anything that triggers off of an unsaved wound, because the wound is no longer unsaved.

I am glad they fixed the wording of FNP.


No, it is still unsaved, but the wound is discounted. But this is irrelevant because once the weapon causes ID you wouldn't take the FNP roll so crisis averted.
   
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Chicago, IL

Grey Templar wrote:That just means you don't suffer the wound. It was still an unsaved wound.

"treat it as having been saved." P.35

It is no longer an unsaved wound.

If you allow things to trigger off of an unsaved wound that is treated as having been saved you are breaking the rules.
Captain Antivas wrote:No, it is still unsaved, but the wound is discounted.

The underlined is Incorrect.

Read the section above this for the rules quote.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/07/27 20:35:10


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Utah

Grey Templar wrote:
liturgies of blood wrote:Not really, an unsaved wound is one you cannot make a save against or one you have failed a save against. FNP is before you declare a wound to be unsaved.


No, FnP is triggered by an Unsaved Wound. FnP is not a save. It is a roll that allows you to ignore an unsaved wound.

The proper order(from looking at the imperative language of the Bonesword Entry) is as follows.

Take Invuln Save(if any)

Take Ld test for each wound caused by the Bonesword.

For every Ld test that was passed, you are allowed FnP. For each test that was failed, you cannot take FnP and suffer ID. Unless you have Eternal Warrior, in which case you ignore the ID effect and may take FnP.

Half right. FNP is negated by ID. Eternal Warrior does not modify FNP. The weapon still caused ID so FNP rolls cannot be taken. Weapon causes ID, FNP is ignored, model suffers ID, Eternal Warrior ignores ID, model takes a wound, model lives to tell the tale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:That just means you don't suffer the wound. It was still an unsaved wound.

"treat it as having been saved." P.35

It is no longer an unsaved wound.

If you allow things to trigger off of an unsaved wound that is treated as having been saved you are breaking the rules.
Captain Antivas wrote:No, it is still unsaved, but the wound is discounted.

The underlined is Incorrect.

Read the section above this for the rules quote.


Like I said, irrelevant. ID would negate the FNP roll so it is not taken so no paradox.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 20:40:59


 
   
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rigeld2 wrote:Does Remove Casualties still say immediately?

I'm in Vegas away from my book.

Seriously - those whose arguments hinge on the word immediately should check this out.
If its worded the same as 5th, boneswords must trigger at the same time as RC.
FnP must trigger before RC.

They changed some wording in FnP but not enough. I think it's clear that they intended for FnP to come before any "on an unsaved wound" ability (Pinning, Hexrifle, Bonesword, NFW, etc.) but the RAW isn't bulletproof (obviously).

And they probably won't FAQ it. Again.

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Utah

rigeld2 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:Does Remove Casualties still say immediately?

I'm in Vegas away from my book.

Seriously - those whose arguments hinge on the word immediately should check this out.
If its worded the same as 5th, boneswords must trigger at the same time as RC.
FnP must trigger before RC.

They changed some wording in FnP but not enough. I think it's clear that they intended for FnP to come before any "on an unsaved wound" ability (Pinning, Hexrifle, Bonesword, NFW, etc.) but the RAW isn't bulletproof (obviously).

And they probably won't FAQ it. Again.

How does immediately after suffering an unsaved wound turn into after everything else. What do you think immediately means?
   
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Captain Antivas wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:Does Remove Casualties still say immediately?

I'm in Vegas away from my book.

Seriously - those whose arguments hinge on the word immediately should check this out.
If its worded the same as 5th, boneswords must trigger at the same time as RC.
FnP must trigger before RC.

They changed some wording in FnP but not enough. I think it's clear that they intended for FnP to come before any "on an unsaved wound" ability (Pinning, Hexrifle, Bonesword, NFW, etc.) but the RAW isn't bulletproof (obviously).

And they probably won't FAQ it. Again.

How does immediately after suffering an unsaved wound turn into after everything else. What do you think immediately means?

Point to where I said "after everything else".

Remove casualties (in 5th - no one has clarified if the wording is the same in. 6th) also said immediately on an unsaved wound.
Are you going to say with a straight face that FnP happens after Remove Casualties?

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Buffalo, NY

Unfortunately rigeld, they've changed the wording for removed casualty, now it just says that if reduced to 0 Wounds you are removed as a casualty. No immediately.

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Happyjew wrote:Unfortunately rigeld, they've changed the wording for removed casualty, now it just says that if reduced to 0 Wounds you are removed as a casualty. No immediately.

Thanks I'll withdraw from the discussion until I have a book in front of me then.

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Chicago, IL

Captain Antivas wrote:How does immediately after suffering an unsaved wound turn into after everything else. What do you think immediately means?

That is not what it says.

Unfortunately Bone Swords require the model to suffer an unsaved wound, which is considered saved if you pass a FNP roll.

FNP says "when a model suffers an unsaved Wound..." (So this happens right after a failed save because it happens when they suffer an unsaved Wound)

Boneswords say "In addition, if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a Leadership test..." (This happens if the model suffers an unsaved wound, which it does not if it passes FNP).

(All Capitalization from the text copied verbatim).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/07/27 22:38:46


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I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

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