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Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

Depends on the game.

Tournament? Prizes on the line? No holds barred, though I frown on unsportsmanlike conduct.

Casual game? Not nearly as cutthroat. The idea is that all players have fun. That doesn't mean I give up a victory just to avoid hurting someone's feelings, but we all know there are ways to play that fit in between giving up the game and figuratively curb stomping a defenseless foe.

Personally, if they're willing to listen, I'll give tips. Make is a little more open as a game, especially if we can both see it as a learning experience. I'd rather suffer a close loss through solid play on both sides than a crushing victory against an opponent who poses no challenge.

For challenging games are where we are likely to learn as well.
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

The burned hand teaches the best, eh?

IME, it's generally that mindset that drives away new players.

There should be some teacher/student aspects as Forar mentioned - but after a certain point, they have to either stand or fall on their own.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






I gave him some advice, But I cant help but think it actually benifitted me sometimes.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

I'll always judge a situation like this by the person you were in that scenario.

If you were a great human being, then it shouldn't matter. If you weren't, then the problem lies with you and not the list.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






... I am biased - I used to teach Military Science to chidren at a program for gifted youth.

The real question is: Did he have fun?

If the answer is 'Yes' then good on you.

But the term 'clubbing baby seals' makes it sound like he did not have fun - it is a game, and one that you are trying to introduce to a new player.

If the lesson that he took away was 'this game is expensive and not fun' then you lose, as well as the baby seal.

Was that the lesson that you wanted him to take away?

It is possible to win a game against a new player without making the game suck for that new player. Brutally clubbing him to death is not that way.

The Auld Grump

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 05:27:45


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






It seemed like he had fun, But he knew he was gonna loose and conceded turn 3 so he can play more games. The guy knew I brought a Tourney list, but he stared and just wondered "What Am i going to do"
But I remember one person telling me "You cant hold back, it an an insult to them"

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Why bother playing people if the game is an auto-win for you?

You learn nothing as a player. You gain no kudos. You probably don't teach them anything.

The "hard lesson is best learned" is often not true, and can just put someone off the hobby before they have the chance to improve.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





USA - New York

I know from my own experience starting out that I always asked people not to go easy on me, and when they would let me get away moon quint once I had started shooting I would get annoyed. I learned more taking then being coddled. I also played a lot of games that I was losing significantly for much of it, but it absolutely made me better. That said however, it IS a game, and you have to roll with the punches ant not be so brutal in a casual setting. I tend to not run optimized lists, or try out ideas tha seem fun more oft the not. You should BOTH be having fun, otherwise what's the point? Besides, where's the HONOR in beating a weak opponent? Wouldn't I be more I a challenge to so with a worse list than one that is proven? Just my 2 cents.

4000pts  
   
Made in us
Utilizing Careful Highlighting





Augusta GA

If a player is just starting out and wants to learn movement, shooting, all that good stuff, maybe don't take a nasty shooting list that sweeps all his models off the table before he has a chance to move or shoot with them?



Just a thought.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 06:06:15


 
   
Made in au
Terminator with Assault Cannon






brisbane, australia

I an this thread expecting dead seals! instead I get dead dreams?

*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





If i was in that situation, even if i was told to go all out by a new player, I would play him like I would play a new MTG player. (I play competitively in mtg).

Id use a less optimized list. Something that can still win, but with a few less optimal units. (Like say il drop my 3 drop pods with iron clads and sg squads, and take landspeeder typhoons and dev squads). It weakens my list enough (i need the alpha strike to keep my talons safe) but still put the hurt in non tourney lists. Chances are he will be using something from a strikeforce box or starter set with some models added in just to get the points up, which means it will be a mixed force of unoptimized units.

This way you still use your experience to help you win the game and it also gives the new guy a chance to win by not playing a leafblower list.
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I think that if you are having those thoughts about it, then it probably answers it for you!

If someone is getting into a game then it's far more beneficial for them (and, ultimately, for you) to go easy on them. Bring out the big guns when he knows what he is doing.

"You cant hold back, it an an insult to them" might well be true against a seasoned player at a tournament, but I definitely would prescribe to that for a beginner.

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Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





Never think of the Golden Rule as a good idea.

Jesus was an ass; you shouldn't treat people as you want to be treated in return - you should treat them as they want to be treated.

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

I've only ever played one game where it seemed that the other player was on a hiding to nothing - once I realised that I eased up (I play too infrequently to care about winning - I just want to have a fun game ) and we discussed our moves and so on and it was a lot nicer a game.

If you are playing against someone who is clearly in a different league to you, why continue to crush them? Neither of you learn anything.

   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







It takes more finesse or skill with some army types to just convincingly scrape a win against a newbie, then it does to just hammer them outright. Dark Eldar being a case in point.

Look on it as another type of challenge, as merely winning outright is too easy. Set yourself a target of winning by no more than a quarter of the game value's victory points, or a single objective.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/12 09:45:52



 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker






You should point him to this thread. He will appreciate it.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Steelmage99 wrote:
Never think of the Golden Rule as a good idea.

Jesus was an ass; you shouldn't treat people as you want to be treated in return - you should treat them as they want to be treated.


I prefer a better golden rule: do unto others before they do unto you.

If you mercilessly club a baby seal and make them ragequit you ensure that you will never suffer the humiliation of defeat at their hands in the future. And many years in the future they may even look back and realize how lucky they were to encounter such a kind opponent who spared them from the misery of playing a GW game.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
1st Lieutenant







I think that both people need to have 'fun' in a casual games (you enter a tournament you need to expect people are there to win) I often take unusual lists to try out against 'baby seals' I play hard but it normally produces an enjoyable game

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




I think I would enjoy such a game even less than the person I was crushing. Just go easy on him, let *him* see what works and doesn't work rather than trying to give him advice.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in au
Irked Necron Immortal





If it was a tournament then everybody understands what’s expected and plays hard core lists to win. If he is new and mainly plays with his friends he might just enjoy playing the game for fun.

If he looked distressed and appeared to not be having fun then that was probably the case for him. Being that he conceded the game on turn 3 so he could go and play more games, kind of suggests that he was not really enjoying the experience. If he is playing mainly for fun he may avoid playing you again in the future.

A great thing to have done would have been to swap lists after the first game and let him play your Tau and you play his CSM. A lot of value can be gained from this and he could experience playing with an optimum tournament list. It would of also been good a good insight into how he felt playing against your optimum list.

I have found this a really good learning tool for both players to go up against their own army’s and test their limitations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 11:10:33


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero





Rampton, UK

Sounds pretty harsh to me if its just a casual game, I would give him advice and/or chance to win, if you really feel the need to pound new players into the ground then fair enough, but its not really my style, and to some people it will make you look like a bit of a bell.
   
Made in at
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





Firmly in the wrong camp. If he's still learning (as opposed to training), I always take more of a demo game approach, taking what I think might be an interesting opponent for his force (which usually won't even be complete at that point), even if it puts me at a huge disadvantage. That way, I actually have some fun, too, trying to overcome the odds. I find that much more rewarding than just "holding back" or curbstomping the newbie.

If he is the type who tells you "no, don't hold back, I want a real game, I'll learn quicker", I tend to ask whether he thinks that a Karate starter would also learn more if the black belt teacher just broke his arms in four seconds.

That being said, the guy in question had a full 1750 point army and already plays, so what exactly made this particular example a "baby seal" I don't know.

My new Oldhammer 40k blog: http://rogue-workshop.blogspot.com/

 Oaka wrote:
It's getting to the point where if I see Marneus Calgar and the Swarmlord in the same unit as a Riptide, I probably won't question its legality.

 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?

Well there's your first problem. Especially if you brought multiple riptides

And yes, it is always a dick move to club a baby seal, unless they explicitly deserve it (aka excessive bragging, TFG, etc)

This attitude of "crush them and they'll learn" chases away many players, especially if all they are up against is net lists and flavor of the month. This attitude from some players was part of the reason I've taken a break from 40k.

Now I'm not saying throw the game here. I'm just saying that there is no reason to bring an optimized list against a noobie. Odds are he doesn't have the best units, and even if he did, he probably has little idea of how to use them. Taking a tourney level list against him is pointless. What are you really going to gain from the experience? What is the other player going to learn, except that he had no chance to win before you even put models on the table? At best, all he's learned is that the army he wanted to play can't hold its own against flavor of the month, at worst, he's posting his models on eBay right now.

When I played noobies back when I still played 40k, I always took unoptimized lists. How bad depended on how new I thought the guy was. Taking the weaker list made the game more even, and was more likely to actually teach the guy something because he had a chance to win. Plus its more fun. If I saw that the list I had would crush the other guy with little difficulty in a friendly game, why would I even bother unpacking? At that point you're basically rolling dice for the heck of it, because new guy isn't putting up much of a fight.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot. If the noobie is cool with it or asks you to not go easy, then by all means, go ahead. I just have a bad history of watching the vets just crush new guys at some of the stores I play at, so the topic can get me a bit peeved. Sorry if I came off angry at you, that wasn't my intention.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 13:38:36


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




I would love to see baby seals partying in my local bar! That would be on a new level of awsome!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Totally wrong though - underage drinking and all that...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 13:22:26


 
   
Made in no
Terrifying Doombull





Hefnaheim

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?


Congratulations you just made me realize even more why I seldom find it rewarind to play with WAAC players whom takes joy in stomping new players. If your goal is to make people want to not play the game then I sallute you!
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Reminds me of my first games against the die-hards of the store, especially my two games against a Turkish tourney champion, that gak wasn't funny, especially my second against Tau, where I got tabled on turn 2. Yay.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






My own approach, in KoW at least, is to handicap myself.

I love playing one 1,500 point army against two 1,000 point armies that are allies.

Needing to coordinate their plans makes it a lot more likely that they will think about their battle plan instead of rushing forward in a line.

Giving myself a time limit, while they can take as long as they need to make their moves is another way of balancing things.

I save the crushing for experienced players. (Hi Jon! Hi Julie!)

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






 Trondheim wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So tonight I played a 1750 game with my Tau V. CSM. This guy is new and mostly plays with his friends. Well things to say is that sometimes he looked like he was not having fun.
Now when I started my buttocks was handed to me several times with no mercy before I won. I Bring this philosophy to other games, IF they loose they will learn.
Now.......When I played him, He looked distressed trying to figure it out, he said he wasnt but I could see. I baught An optimized tau/sm list with some major power units.
So, Is it wrong to club a baby seal?


Congratulations you just made me realize even more why I seldom find it rewarind to play with WAAC players whom takes joy in stomping new players. If your goal is to make people want to not play the game then I sallute you!

Wow, I never said I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the game because the guy and me where laughing that whole. And for those, He isnt a brand new but he is still learning, He knows the rule and been playing for a few months.
And I did give him advice and where to put his Warp talons, his Landraider so Kharn can get into combat fast. He didnt whine he just quit so he could get more games in that night.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos






Grim Forgotten Nihilist Forest.

Yeah. Seal Clubbing should be a national sport in Canada-

Wait that? Yeah your a terrible person and should feel bad. THINK OF HIS FRAGILE WARGAMER EGO.

I've sold so many armies. :(
Aeldari 3kpts
Slaves to Darkness.3k
Word Bearers 2500k
Daemons of Chaos

 
   
 
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