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JY2’S ESCALATION TACTICA, PART I – ELDAR

First of all, an introduction to Escalation. Escalation is a supplement that introduces Apocalypse units – namely super-heavies and gargantuan creatures – into normal games of Warhammer 40K. It allows you to use what usually are some very powerful units who were designed for much larger games. These units are what the Escalation supplement calls as Lords of War. I shall simply call them titans in this tactica.

This tactica is aimed more towards the competitive aspect of 40K gaming. While titans can be fun to play, they will no doubt also make the game very competitive as well, in most cases to the point that if you cannot kill them, then you will most likely get annihilated by them. I will look into the titans of the various armies and how to make those armies work. I will also go into how to play against these types of armies.


Titans
Titans, or Lords of War units, are very powerful units found only in games of Apocalypse before the supplement came out. However, with Escalation now a part of 40K, you can now bring these behemoths into your games. Titans consist mainly of 2 types – the Super-heavies (SH’s) and the Gargantuan Creatures (GC’s). Super-heavies are vehicles and are further sub-divided into 3 types – Super-heavy Tanks, Super-heavy Walkers and Super-heavy Flyers. Gargantuans are divided into 2 types – normal Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC’s). The characteristics that both super-heavies and GC’s share is that both are usually very hard to kill and both can cause massive amounts of destruction.

Destroyer Weapons
So what are Destroyer weapons, also known as Strength D weapons or just D-weapons/guns? They are simply the most destructive weapons in the game today. In many cases, just 1 D-weapon can potentially wipe out an entire unit with ease. These guns break many of the normal mechanics of the game. They ignore armor, cover, invulnerable saves, FNP, just almost everything in the game today (including Reanimation Protocols). They also practically ignore the mechanic of the Hull Point on regular vehicles. With the exception of other Titan defenses, there is almost no defense against Destroyer weaponry in regular 40K. It is mainly Titans with D-weapons that will be the problem for most armies to deal with. It is also the D-weapons that competitive gamers will flock to. Hence, there will be no avoiding it. You want to survive Escalation? Then you better be able to handle the D.

How to Play against Titans?

Elite Armies:
Unfortunately, you are going to see Elitist armies die away in games of Escalation (or where Escalation is commonplace). Why? Because to a Destroyer gun, a land raider is just as easy to kill as a rhino. Your paladins, seer council and screamer-star are just as easy to kill as a unit of termagants. The 250-pt uber-character is not much more survivable than a normal marine sergeant. Elitist armies in competitive play will slowly phase out in games of Escalation simply because they are very inefficient against Destroyer weapons. Unfortunately, this is one of the side effects of the game that many people will have to deal with. It will render a lot of army builds practically obsolete.

Flyer Armies:
This will be the golden age of the flyer. Armies with good flyers or flying monstrous creatures will thrive in the age of Escalation. One of the main weaknesses of Destroyer weapons is that most of them can’t shoot at flyers. Currently, all the units in the Escalation supplement who have Destroyer weaponry can only fire blasts. Thus, they cannot even shoot at flyers, at least not with their most powerful guns. Moreover, titans are so expensive that in most cases, one will find it hard to add adequate anti-air as well as troops and other support units in a titan army. The only army who can do it well will be Tau, who unfortunately lack a good titan themselves, and necrons, who just may be the most well-rounded army in games of Escalation. Thus, if your army can dominate the air, then they will have a decent chance against the titans.

MSU Armies:
Escalation will be the comeback of the Multiple-Small Units (MSU) builds. First off, titans are so expensive that they need the rest of their army to be cheap and efficient. Secondly, more is better when playing against titans. A unit of 10 paladins will die just as easily as a unit of 10 scouts to Destroyer weaponry. Thus, why run 10 paladins when 5 units of 10 scouts (who can then combat squad into 10 squads of 5) is much, much more survivable? Moreover, it takes either Destroyer weaponry or massed firepower to kill a titan. MSU is what will gives you the best massed firepower to deal with titans. So for non-flyer armies, MSU is good both for titan armies and against titan armies.

Drop Pod Armies:
Drop pod armies are one of the few builds that won’t really change whether playing against titans or regular armies. However, drop pod armies will have the advantage of getting the alpha-strike on a titan. Thus, I see drop pod armies continue to proliferate in the era of Escalation as they have been doing in 6th Edition. The only thing about drop pod armies is that they are limited to Imperial armies, but for those Imperial armies who don’t run super-heavies, you will very likely see them run drop pod armies in games of Escalation.

Daemons:
Daemons are actually one of the armies that can thrive in Escalation games. They have a hugely competitive build – Flying Monstrous Creatures-spam, or FMC-spam – that will also translate well into games of Escalation (as long as they grab the Portaglyph to shore up their scoring). They also have what may be one of the best weapons against Titans – Be’lakor and Puppet Master. With the advent of the titan, Puppet Master may well become one of the most important psychic powers in the game.

When in Doubt, Hide:
Yes, this is going to be a common strategy in Escalation. There just is no defense against Destroyer weaponry other than to be in reserves, stay up in the air or to just hide. If you cannot kill the opposing Destroyer titan, then you better find a hole to crawl under or prepare to lose a unit. Oftentimes, you will have little choice but to play the denial game against enemy titans.


PART I - ELDAR

I am going to start my tactica with what may arguably be the most powerful army to come out of Escalation – the Eldar. The Eldar (and Dark Eldar) currently possesses the most devastating Titan in the game of Escalation so far – the Revenant Titan. Why is this monster so deadly? Because whereas most of the other titans in Escalation have at most 1 or 2 Destroyer attacks/shots, the Revenant has 4 of those shots. Moreover, they aren’t just shots, they are Destroyer blasts. Yes, the Revenant is the titan most likely to erase 2 units each turn. What also sets him apart is that he is also the most mobile, non-flyer titan in the game thanks to his 36” move and he is the only titan in Escalation currently who has some type of defense against other Destroyer shots with its Eldar Titan Holo-fields (ETHF’s). ETHF’s are so good because they are the only mechanism currently that provides some type of save against other Destroyer weaponry. Moreover, the Revenant can still potentially get other saves on top of their ETHF defense (i.e. cover, Forewarning, Skyshield Landing Pads).

Every competitive Escalation Eldar army is going to include a Revenant. They are just too good.

For each tactica, I will include a sample list for a competitive Escalation army. Please note that the list I offer isn’t the be-all-end-all of competitive Escalation lists. Rather, they are lists that I feel can thrive in games of Escalation. Feel free to use my lists as a foundation, to expand on them or even to ignore them completely.

I will also address some of the weaknesses of each build and how to play against those types of armies. For my tacticas, I will not include elements from the Stronghold Assault supplement. That, I will leave to the discretion of the readers if they want to include it into their Escalation lists.

I will also build 2 lists – one at 1750-pts, which is a common points-level for most tournaments currently, and another at 2000-pts to show how I would normally scale up my lists.


1750 Eldar

HQ:
Autarch – Eldar Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God

Troops:
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes
3x Jetbikes

Fast Attacks:
Crimson Hunter
Vyper – Scatter Lasers
Vyper – Scatter Lasers

Heavy Attacks:
War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Scatters

Lord of War:
Revenant Titan


2000 Eldar

HQ:
Autarch – Banshee Mask, Eldar Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God

Troops:
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes

Fast Attacks:
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter
Vyper – Scatter Lasers

Heavy Attacks:
War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Scatters

Lord of War:
Revenant Titan


Autarch:
So why an Autarch? Why not a farseer? Imagine Guide/Prescience on the Revenant, Misfortune on the enemy or even Puppet Master on enemy titans. The answer is Reserves. The need to be able to manipulate reserves in this list is greater than the need for the farseer’s psychic powers. One of the main strategies of this list is denial and I do it with reserves. Keep the troops in reserves for as long as possible. If necessary against a good alpha-strike army, I can even keep my titan in reserves and then bring him in on Turn 2 on a 2+. War walkers can outflank on Turn 2 and I can bring in the crimson hunter then as well for a respectable beta-strike if necessary.

One thing to note is that his reserves manipulation ability works even if he himself is in reserves.

Jetbikes:
Windrider Jetbikes are the fastest troops in the game that is not necrons. You need to run a lot of them for this type of list to work. They also provide volume of fire, especially in trying to ground Flying Monstrous Creatures.

Crimson Hunters:
Crimson Hunters are the best anti-flyer weapons in this army. Control when they come in with your Autarch so you can strike at enemy flyers first.

Vypers:
You need something on the board other than the Revenant and troops for the enemy to shoot at and the more units, the better. Also use them to help ground FMC’s and thin out hordes. Their mobility is a plus.

War Walkers:
Good mobility due to outflanking. Good firepower. Another unit that can be used to ground FMC’s.


Overall Strategies:

This is basically a denial army. You want to reserve at least half your forces (not counting the Crimson Hunters, which must start in reserves).

Usually, at 1750, I will deploy as follows:

Deploy:
Revenant
Autarch
2x Troops
2x Vypers

Reserves:
3x Troops
2x War Walkers (usually outflanking)

However, if you are going 2nd and are concerned about your opponent’s alpha-strike (i.e. he is bringing titans with Destroyer weaponry as well or he has massed shooting), then you can put your Revenant in reserves (and perhaps your Autarch as well if you can’t hide him from opposing Destroyer weaponry) and deploy your war walkers instead.

The Revenant is the focal point of your offense. You need to keep him out of combat. With his 36” move, he can usually get away from most combats. However, there will be some armies, especially flyer armies, where this may prove more difficult. Moreover, you really don’t have enough units/models to bubble-wrap/screen-out your titan. Against these armies, positioning is very important. Try not to back yourself into a corner too early. You need to use all your resources to down units such as FMC’s so that your Revenant can take them out. Also, don’t get baited by your opponent into getting too close to his units. Even a unit of 10 tactical marines can potentially tie up your titan for a while. His offense is in his shooting and that is what you need to maximize. Combat is the worst place for him to be because every turn spent in combat is a turn that he is not shooting.

Flyer armies who prove to be the most difficult armies for Revdar (Eldar with Revenant) army to face. That is one of the main reasons why I chose to go MSU for this army. Against FMC’s, the more units you have, the greater your chances for grounding them. Against a FMC daemon build, his shooting is likely to be weak. If so, then don’t hesitate to deploy almost your entire army. The more guns you have on the ground, the better.

Against necron flyers, heldrakes, stormravens and even the Thunderhawk, you have got to play the position game. Against 1-2 flyers, you have a chance to shoot them down, but if your opponent brings massed flyers, drakes or the Thunderhawk, then you are going to have to result to denial and positioning. Against heldrakes, try to reserve all your troops if possible to deny them easy kills. Then use the mobility of your army to try to get into the rear arcs of the flyers. This will force your opponent into making a choice – either fly off the table or go into Hovering mode to try to kill them. But the moment his flyer hovers, your titan will kill it.

As for the Thunderhawk, he is arguably the single greatest problem for the Revenant. He is a flyer with Destroyer firepower and he will get the alpha-strike against your Revenant unless you put him in reserves. However, it isn’t as bad as it seems. With Eldar Titan Holo-fields (ETHF), you have a 50% chance to negate his shot as long as your titan moves. You do have to be careful when you move to the Thunderhawk’s “blind spots”. That is because it can always go into Hover mode and the passengers inside can disembark to assault your titan. The best chance against the Thunderhawk is just to focus the firepower of your entire army at it. The Thunderhawk has 2 weaknesses. Its rear armour is only AV10 and is susceptible to massed S6 shots. Also, super-heavy flyers cannot Evade, meaning it won’t have a jink save.

As with any game, don’t lose sight of the mission objectives. Your Revenant is the centerpiece of the army and truly a VIP-unit, but in truth, it is just another sacrificial unit. Your true game winners in any mission other than Purge the Alien are your jetbike troops. Never lose sight of that. If you have to, don’t hesitate to sacrifice your titan in order to save your troops, especially when it comes down to the late game (i.e. Turns 4/5). Use him as a fire magnet. Even assault the enemy if you have to, especially if you can secure the win by doing so (and assuming you don’t have the game “in the bag” yet).

How to Play against the Eldar?
What is the best way to play against a deathstar army? Yes, Eldar in Escalation is a Deathstar army, with the Revenant being the Deathstar unit. So what is the best way to beat a deathstar army? There really are 2 ways:

Kill the deathstar itself. This will not be easy. You either have to have a huge amount of firepower (i.e. shooty MSU) or a very fast army if you are going for assault (i.e. FMC daemons). In many cases, it is also paramount that you be able to go first as well. Just to sit there and even take one round of shooting from the Revenant can be devastating. Trust me, you don’t want any of that.

Also, be aware that killing the titan won’t necessarily win you the game, especially when commandeered by a savvy player. All it does is buy time for his jetbike troops to snatch the objectives near the end of the game and by that time, your army will be too depleted to do anything about it.

Kill the support units. This is the strategy I prefer. If I feel that I have a reasonable shot at taking out his titan, then I will go for it. Otherwise, it is almost always a better idea to go after the supporting units instead, especially his scoring units. Now with jetbike troops, this is actually easier said than done. It is the jetbike troops whom makes the army so hard to deal with, especially when the elder player goes with the strategy of denial.

While going after the support units may be tough, going after the titan is actually harder. Why? Because then you have to go after both the titan and the scoring troops. After battling it out with the Revenant, in most cases, you won’t have much gas left in the tank to deal with the super-fast bikes. You still need to find a way to stop them from grabbing objectives or from contesting your objectives.

Tie up his titan. Again, this is not an easy task. You need a really fast and durable unit in order to do this, but if you can someone manage to do so, then you can focus on the rest of the eldar army much, much easier without a titan shooting down your army. Fast units to use include daemon and tyranid FMC’s or units in flying transports like the stormraven and similar such flying assault vehicles.

If you don’t have fast units such as those, then you’re going to have to 1) have a lot of units advancing, hoping that 1 unit may be able to catch the titan or 2) try to bait him into coming into assault range of one of your units. Of course you better hope that the Revenant player prioritizes the wrong target in order to give you the opportunity to catch him.

Psychic powers, especially Puppet Master, can be very useful against a Revdar army. Units such as Be’lakor is especially dangerous to an eldar player. Puppet Master and Be’lakor is actually one of the reasons why I’ve designed my Eldar list as a MSU list. This way, the damage caused from a puppet mastered Revenant is minimal due to the amount of redundancy in the list.

Flyer armies. Revdar has a tough time against massed flyers/FMC’s due to the lack of anti-air, skyfire units in their lists normally. While the amount of shooting I have in my Revdar list should be able to ground a FMC each turn, it will still have problems dealing with a FMC list running 4-5 FMC’s and possibly a heldrake as well.

Massed flyers is another problem as well. The amount of shooting in my Revdar list is respectable, but S6 isn’t very reliable against AV11/12 flyers. The Necron Airforce will especially give the Revenant major problems. They are also probably the only army along with triple heldrake Chaos that can efficiently go after eldar troops.

I can also see a Thunderhawk list with 2-3 stormravens and/or stormtalons being a problematic build for Revdar as well. AV12 flyers are a huge weakness of Revdar and the most they can do is to try to position themselves away from the flight path of these flyers.

Flyer armies, however, need to make sure they have a decent ground presence as well. Otherwise, if they are not careful and emphasize too much on their flyers, they just may end up getting tabled on Turn 1.

The Future of Escalation
Escalation is a major change to the world of 40K. It will take some time to get used to. Escalation may turn some people away, but I think it can be a lot of fun for those who stick around and give it a chance. It is another “flavor” of 40K and adds variety to the game. At the same time, it will discourage some of the variety in the game as well. For the time being, I see Escalation used more for competitive gaming just because most of the casual players just won’t have the tools to deal with most of the titans. But give it some time and I think the Escalation scenery will change. As more and more players get exposed to titans, you will see a shift from more competitive at first, to more mainstream over time. After all, who wouldn’t want to own a titan? They are big and powerful, the models are cool as heck and they make a great centerpiece to any army aesthetically. That should be incentive enough for both the gamers and the modelers to start accepting titans into regular 40K. Now, you can build it, paint it and use it in your games as well.

Against your Eldar list, IG would shine. Specifically, air-cavalry IG. Three vendettas coming in (with potential reserves manipulation from an Inquisitor or other psyker). In fact, perhaps the deadliest combo could be a helldrake/vendetta list.

However, back to just IG. You can stuff 9 vendettas and a Valkyrie into a 1750 point list. considering all of the lascannon shots, the titan is going down rather quickly. Nine LC shots per squadron isn't something to scoff at, and that will ruin AV12, no matter what pseudo-invuln save it has. Of course, nine flyers would be hard to maneuver, which is why you need some form of reserves control.

I was under the impression that there is no such thing as escalation games per say, rather that the escalation suppliment is freely available to use in any game of 40k.

Tournaments are already banning this stuff though, so you'll only ever have to play against these super heavies when you agree to in friendly games, in most cases where both players are happy to and are capable of fielding these escalation units.

My strategy of pretending this expansion never came out seems to be doing fine.

Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.

 McNinja wrote:
Against your Eldar list, IG would shine. Specifically, air-cavalry IG. Three vendettas coming in (with potential reserves manipulation from an Inquisitor or other psyker). In fact, perhaps the deadliest combo could be a helldrake/vendetta list.

However, back to just IG. You can stuff 9 vendettas and a Valkyrie into a 1750 point list. considering all of the lascannon shots, the titan is going down rather quickly. Nine LC shots per squadron isn't something to scoff at, and that will ruin AV12, no matter what pseudo-invuln save it has. Of course, nine flyers would be hard to maneuver, which is why you need some form of reserves control.

Yeah, flyer-heavy IG has a shot against Revenant Eldar (or as I call them, Revdar). Just make sure you have enough boots on the ground (and probably hiding) on Turn 1 such that he can't table you before then.

Just a little mathhammer exercise, with 9 vendettas vs the Revenant. Assuming he moves for the 4+ and that all vendettas can shoot:

27x TL-shots x 3/4 hits x (1/6 glance + 1/2 pen) x 1/2 save = 5x pens + 1.75x glances = 6.75 HP's

You then roll on the damage charts for pens: 5x pens x 1/3 x 1.5 average HP of damage = 2.5 HP's

So total damage = 6.75 + 2.5 = 9.25 HP

So yes, if you can bring all 9 vendettas' guns to bear against the revenant, then you can take it down in 1 or 2 turns at most.

Against a 9-vendetta list, the Revdar player is going to have to play the denial game. Put his titan in reserves and try to control when he comes in with the Autarch. Ideally, you'd want it to come in after most of the vendettas have come in already and then go after the ground targets. Move the titan into the '6' of the vendettas if possible or at least out of some of their flight paths, thus forcing them to hover or fly off the table. Also, make use of any tall terrain piece in order to get the 4+ cover as well as the Titan Holo-field saves.

Nice analysis.

Mike712 wrote:
I was under the impression that there is no such thing as escalation games per say, rather that the escalation suppliment is freely available to use in any game of 40k.

Tournaments are already banning this stuff though, so you'll only ever have to play against these super heavies when you agree to in friendly games, in most cases where both players are happy to and are capable of fielding these escalation units.

My tactica goes with the assumption that you ask your opponent if he wants to play against Escalation units and that he doesn't say, "no, I'll pass." Yeah, you can freely use titans in games of 40K now, but your opponent can also freely choose not to play against them.

 Orock wrote:
My strategy of pretending this expansion never came out seems to be doing fine.

Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.

Lol. If GW did something like that, it'll show that they actually cared.

I also find it highly ironic and highly humorous that they will or can take action against you for not using their products. That'll be like suing someone for buying their models but not using/following the instruction manuels on how to assemble it. Hey, I'm suing you for your conversion because it doesn't follow my manuel!

Thanks Jy2 for getting the ball rolling on absorbing this knowledge into the net-mind.

I like your addition of the list at the end. Not even for the purposes of a guide on what to put into such a list but as a guide to what such a list will look like and what you will need to tackle it.

I am looking forward to your necron guide because I think you are 100% right in they will probably be the most flexible and balanced Escalation build.

sorely because of the fact of all the fliew armies doing so much damage, i would take max crimson hunters. 3 in lower than 2000, 4-5 in 2000+. Other than that, your list is great.

 ansacs wrote:
Thanks Jy2 for getting the ball rolling on absorbing this knowledge into the net-mind.

I like your addition of the list at the end. Not even for the purposes of a guide on what to put into such a list but as a guide to what such a list will look like and what you will need to tackle it.

I am looking forward to your necron guide because I think you are 100% right in they will probably be the most flexible and balanced Escalation build.

You're welcome.

Currently, there is a backlash with GW especially with regards to allowing titans combined with all the new stuff coming out. My concern is the number of players that may leave the game because of this. Thus, my goal here is to educate the people, both in terms of how to play Escalation and how to play against. I don't expect my lists to be the final say in how Escalation lists should look like, and even I can't account for all the new stuff coming out. But I hope it can provide a template for how a balanced Escalation list will look like. As for people playing against titans, it should give them a glimpse of what to expect and they would have to prepare for.

My necron tactica should be a good one, and I am going to start it off with a bang. Yes, I will use it (and show how to use it) against Eldar + Revenant in a Frontline Gaming videorep and probably against the man himself, Reece!

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
sorely because of the fact of all the fliew armies doing so much damage, i would take max crimson hunters. 3 in lower than 2000, 4-5 in 2000+. Other than that, your list is great.

I try not to overdo it with too many flyers because that would take away too much of my non-titan ground presence. You need a solid ground presence in order to play against titans. At 1750, if you want to run 2 flyers (I wouldn't recommend running 3), you're most likely going to have to drop 1 vyper, 1 war walker and 1 troop as well. That is a lot to give up. But I wouldn't mind at 2K. I think at 2K, you can run the titan, 3 flyers and still have a decent ground presence.

Of course, that may all change if you decide to bring in some fortifications from the Stronghold supplement.

Grim Dark wrote:
Nice analysis.

Thanks!

Yeah I am a little worried about the community with the addition of escalation. With seerstar/screamer star you have to put a lot of elements into your list and purposely try to make those units like they are. With a revenant you just put one in and it ROFL stomps people without mercy. It is like all the bad effects of combo hammer without any combining. Without easy access to ideas on how to counter them a number of people may leave the game instead of take the loses to learn.

I will be looking forward to your batrep. I agree with you that the necron post escalation dex seems like the most balanced and flexible. Should be a good game.

Great Review! I hope more following.


However, to me the real excitement in these new releases is the Void Shield Generator. Now THAT is a item with potential.

 McNinja wrote:
Against your Eldar list, IG would shine. Specifically, air-cavalry IG. Three vendettas coming in (with potential reserves manipulation from an Inquisitor or other psyker). In fact, perhaps the deadliest combo could be a helldrake/vendetta list.

However, back to just IG. You can stuff 9 vendettas and a Valkyrie into a 1750 point list. considering all of the lascannon shots, the titan is going down rather quickly. Nine LC shots per squadron isn't something to scoff at, and that will ruin AV12, no matter what pseudo-invuln save it has. Of course, nine flyers would be hard to maneuver, which is why you need some form of reserves control.

Unless you are playing EDT, that kind of list will be tabled first turn harder than Necron Air Force.

 jy2 wrote:
(or as I call them, Revdar).

Stop trying to make 'Revdar' happen. It's not going to happen

Wondering: if Puppet Master is going to be so useful against Titans, would it be time to consider pulling Anrakyr the Traveler and his Mind in the Machine ability out of retirement and adding him to Necron Escalation lists?

 skoffs wrote:
Wondering: if Puppet Master is going to be so useful against Titans, would it be time to consider pulling Anrakyr the Traveler and his Mind in the Machine ability out of retirement and adding him to Necron Escalation lists?

Oh, absolutely.

jy2 Awesome review! I am glad to see you gave your ideas on how to best combat they army aswell, do you think we will see a dark eldar version of this? (heard through the grapevine DE can take a revenat titan aswell)

What other armies do you have plans to do a escalation review on next? I can see orks being another major play.

Side note: escalation is all good if they will just take D weapons out or least make them st10 ap1

Nice tactica review. I like it.

After going through the Stronghold Assault supplement, I agree that the Void Shield Generator would be a good investment for an Escalation Army. Therefore, I am revising my lists to incorporate the VS Generator into it:


1750 Eldar

HQ:
Autarch – Eldar Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God

Troops:
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attacks:
Crimson Hunter
Vyper – Scatter Lasers

Heavy Attacks:
War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Scatters

Fortification:
Void Shield Generator - +2 extra Void Shields

Lord of War:
Revenant Titan


2000 Eldar

HQ:
Autarch – Eldar Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God

Troops:
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon
3x Jetbikes - Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attacks:
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter
Vyper – Scatter Lasers

Heavy Attacks:
1x Vaul's Wrath Support Battery
War Walker – 2x Brightlance
War Walker – 2x Scatters

Fortification:
Void Shield Generator - +2 extra Void Shields

Lord of War:
Revenant Titan

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Great Review! I hope more following.


However, to me the real excitement in these new releases is the Void Shield Generator. Now THAT is a item with potential.

Yeah, they're pretty good. After going through the supplement, I've decided to add it to my lists above.

 ansacs wrote:
Yeah I am a little worried about the community with the addition of escalation. With seerstar/screamer star you have to put a lot of elements into your list and purposely try to make those units like they are. With a revenant you just put one in and it ROFL stomps people without mercy. It is like all the bad effects of combo hammer without any combining. Without easy access to ideas on how to counter them a number of people may leave the game instead of take the loses to learn.

I will be looking forward to your batrep. I agree with you that the necron post escalation dex seems like the most balanced and flexible. Should be a good game.

What you're probably going to find is that the people without titans are probably going to decline to play against those with. Most tournaments are not going to allow Escalation units, at least not initially. And when they finally do, those who don't want to play against titans will just not go to those tournaments.

You'll find some people may get mad when they do get blind-sided by a player with titans, but that's going to be in the earlier stages of Escalation. That's when you'll see the most people decide to leave the game. After Escalation does get "broken in", however, it won't be too bad. It'll take time, but people will eventually accept it or just not play against it.

Belly wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
(or as I call them, Revdar).

Stop trying to make 'Revdar' happen. It's not going to happen

LOL! Good one.

Costs and availability of the Revenant will probably keep most people away initially, but after FW ramps up production (if they haven't done so already), you're going to see Revdar happen whether we like it or not.

 skoffs wrote:
Wondering: if Puppet Master is going to be so useful against Titans, would it be time to consider pulling Anrakyr the Traveler and his Mind in the Machine ability out of retirement and adding him to Necron Escalation lists?

Sure, but his power isn't a sure thing. He's actually got to hit with BS4 first and then afterwards, you can basically write him off.

Also, going MSU with Revdar will mitigate the effects of Puppet Master and other similar type effects. In other words, they can survive.

 Solosam47 wrote:
jy2 Awesome review! I am glad to see you gave your ideas on how to best combat they army aswell, do you think we will see a dark eldar version of this? (heard through the grapevine DE can take a revenat titan aswell)

What other armies do you have plans to do a escalation review on next? I can see orks being another major play.

Side note: escalation is all good if they will just take D weapons out or least make them st10 ap1

Sure. I actually think DE will be very strong in Escalation. Their army was made for low-points games anyways and they do MSU like nobody's business. The only they really need to do is to shore up their AA or they will still get raped by necrons.


Coming up next....Necrons! After that, probably Space Marines, Orks, IG or DE. Not sure yet. Tyranids will probably be last due to the new tyranid codex coming out.

 Pellegrino wrote:
Nice tactica review. I like it.

Thanks!

Nice. Actually I think that stronghold assault is a nice enabler supplement which hugely increases the number and types of builds possible.

I am not so much worried about revenant's ruining the game. More indulgent parents buying little Timmy a Transcendent C'Tan for Christmas and little Timmy ROFL stomping his friends without really meaning to do so. At that level of play Timmy probably will have to drop from 1850 pts games to 1000 pts games to not ROFL stomp people and his friends probably can't "Escalate" easily. I feel that the "entry" level to the game is becoming harder and harder, which is bad for continual survival of 40k. Per point the Transcendent C'Tan is a much better value than necron warriors (about 4x the value). And quicker to assemble...

I'm disappointed that these strategies don't include a void shield network fortification to protect the titan with a re-rollable 3+ cover save (don't forget your psyker) to stack with its 4+ "you missed me" ability and give you a 95% chance of avoiding a hit, along with multiple AV 12 void shields to destroy before you even get to the titan. IMO the void shields are pretty much mandatory when you expect a titan vs. titan fight.

 ansacs wrote:
Nice. Actually I think that stronghold assault is a nice enabler supplement which hugely increases the number and types of builds possible.

I am not so much worried about revenant's ruining the game. More indulgent parents buying little Timmy a Transcendent C'Tan for Christmas and little Timmy ROFL stomping his friends without really meaning to do so. At that level of play Timmy probably will have to drop from 1850 pts games to 1000 pts games to not ROFL stomp people and his friends probably can't "Escalate" easily. I feel that the "entry" level to the game is becoming harder and harder, which is bad for continual survival of 40k. Per point the Transcendent C'Tan is a much better value than necron warriors (about 4x the value). And quicker to assemble...

Yeah, that could be a problem, especially when introducing more advance and powerful units into regular play with the more casual players. It can make for a discouragingly bad experience for those who don't know what they are getting into.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm disappointed that these strategies don't include a void shield network fortification to protect the titan with a re-rollable 3+ cover save (don't forget your psyker) to stack with its 4+ "you missed me" ability and give you a 95% chance of avoiding a hit, along with multiple AV 12 void shields to destroy before you even get to the titan. IMO the void shields are pretty much mandatory when you expect a titan vs. titan fight.

That is not a good strategy. It just makes the list more unbalanced and thus, weaker.

You are spending 340-pts to buff up your already hard-to-kill titan. The good players are already going to ignore him anyways, and now they only have to deal with 510-pts of your 1750 army. And you've done nothing to address the problem that is FMC daemons.

I'm sorry, but to me, some of these combos are nothing but gimmicks. Yes, you make it nearly impossible to kill the titan. However, you are also encouraging your opponent to deal with the rest of the army instead and to me, that is not a good thing. I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.

 jy2 wrote:
I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.

The problem is that without that defense if your opponent gets the first shot with their Revenant/Warhound (and you know Warhounds are coming soon) you can just put your titan back in its box and not even bother to play the game. The rest of your list isn't going to get the job done alone, so you might as well go all-in on keeping your one relevant unit on the table.

Also:

However, if you are going 2nd and are concerned about your opponent’s alpha-strike (i.e. he is bringing titans with Destroyer weaponry as well or he has massed shooting), then you can put your Revenant in reserves (and perhaps your Autarch as well if you can’t hide him from opposing Destroyer weaponry) and deploy your war walkers instead.

This is suicide. Deploy a couple war walkers against a shooting army and you're tabled on turn 1. Unless you're putting your precious troops out there to die you have a total of four AV 10 models keeping you from losing the game.

I'm sorry, but to me, some of these combos are nothing but gimmicks. Yes, you make it nearly impossible to kill the titan. However, you are also encouraging your opponent to deal with the rest of the army instead and to me, that is not a good thing. I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.

Yeah, but JY2, the only way I know how to setup my forces is in a perfect 10" diameter circle. Your Titan is INSTANT WIN!!!!!! What ever is a boy to do?

 jy2 wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
I was under the impression that there is no such thing as escalation games per say, rather that the escalation suppliment is freely available to use in any game of 40k.

Tournaments are already banning this stuff though, so you'll only ever have to play against these super heavies when you agree to in friendly games, in most cases where both players are happy to and are capable of fielding these escalation units.

My tactica goes with the assumption that you ask your opponent if he wants to play against Escalation units and that he doesn't say, "no, I'll pass." Yeah, you can freely use titans in games of 40K now, but your opponent can also freely choose not to play against them.

 Orock wrote:
My strategy of pretending this expansion never came out seems to be doing fine.

Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.

Lol. If GW did something like that, it'll show that they actually cared.

I also find it highly ironic and highly humorous that they will or can take action against you for not using their products. That'll be like suing someone for buying their models but not using/following the instruction manuels on how to assemble it. Hey, I'm suing you for your conversion because it doesn't follow my manuel!

sadly they could still send the letter, and claim defamation, claiming that the tournament is misrepresenting how the game is actually run, and weasel in something about costing them revenue for people who now wont buy their overpriced huge models because someone banned them.

Legal feet or not, all they have to do is keep it in court till the event passes, and they have won. Its like companies who have to pay out millions in restitution to 80 year olds, and keep them in court hopeing they die of old age before they have to fork it over.

 Orock wrote:
Personally I cant WAIT for GW to send the first cease and desist letters to major TO's who ban the "totally legal for all forms of 40k rules we playtested and worked super hard on, and was not put out as a inconsiderate cash grab at all" codexes because it might hurt their sales (in their heads) then the general public destroyes them for being game killing idiots. Mabye then they can finally sell their de-valued company like they have been trying so hard to do for the last few years and we can get half competent people running it.

Sorry, but this is just paranoid delusions on the level as the guy standing on the corner screaming about how the world is going to end. There is absolutely no way that GW is going to send C&D letters to anyone over banning units, and even if they were stupid enough to try it would be laughed out of court.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.

The problem is that without that defense if your opponent gets the first shot with their Revenant/Warhound (and you know Warhounds are coming soon) you can just put your titan back in its box and not even bother to play the game. The rest of your list isn't going to get the job done alone, so you might as well go all-in on keeping your one relevant unit on the table.

Also:

However, if you are going 2nd and are concerned about your opponent’s alpha-strike (i.e. he is bringing titans with Destroyer weaponry as well or he has massed shooting), then you can put your Revenant in reserves (and perhaps your Autarch as well if you can’t hide him from opposing Destroyer weaponry) and deploy your war walkers instead.

This is suicide. Deploy a couple war walkers against a shooting army and you're tabled on turn 1. Unless you're putting your precious troops out there to die you have a total of four AV 10 models keeping you from losing the game.

Well, I've revised my list to include the Void Shield Generator. That should help some, though it's not totally fool-proof. Otherwise, if the enemy alpha strike is too strong, then you've got no choice but to reserve your titan.

The rest of the army is built to survive. They may be small and fragile, but I made them small so that it is easier for them to hide behind terrain. You can also hide 1 or maybe even 2 units behind the Void Shield Generator, which is BLOS terrain, in a terrain-lite table. Also, you can deploy the Autarch if you need to. He is ultra-resilient to any shooting that does not ignore cover thanks to the Mantle.

So with a titan, the void shield generator and most of your MSU units deployed (and hiding), chances are that your opponent won't be able to take out your titan or table you on T1, at least not at 1750.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I'm sorry, but to me, some of these combos are nothing but gimmicks. Yes, you make it nearly impossible to kill the titan. However, you are also encouraging your opponent to deal with the rest of the army instead and to me, that is not a good thing. I prefer my titan to be my fire magnet.

Yeah, but JY2, the only way I know how to setup my forces is in a perfect 10" diameter circle. Your Titan is INSTANT WIN!!!!!! What ever is a boy to do?

Dunno. Don't setup in a perfect 10" diameter circle?

 Orock wrote:
sadly they could still send the letter, and claim defamation, claiming that the tournament is misrepresenting how the game is actually run, and weasel in something about costing them revenue for people who now wont buy their overpriced huge models because someone banned them.

Legal feet or not, all they have to do is keep it in court till the event passes, and they have won. Its like companies who have to pay out millions in restitution to 80 year olds, and keep them in court hopeing they die of old age before they have to fork it over.

I guess I'll leave the legalese to the legal people.

It just strikes me as very bone-headed that GW would do something like that, telling 100's of their customers that they can't play in tournaments. That would be very bad for their company image as well as hurtful to their bottom-lines.

Well, Reavers were just added in the FW update and Eldar got their silly broken tanks too. If you needed any reason not to use Escalation, that's about as good as it gets. Oh, and the Warhound was also readded, so now you can get AV14 for your 4 Str D blast spewer and spend less points.

Yeah, I vote we don't listen to the FW stuff unless you want to play IG+warhound titans:the game.

EDIT: Actually, they added the Vampire Hunter too, so it'll still be 100% Eldar, 100% of the time.

Warhounds don´t have holo fields or can move 36" in a turn. A lascannon has the same chance of causing at least 1 HP damage on the eldar titan and a warhound (of course better chance of causing more HP´s). Gravguns and melta in meltarange are better against the warhound.

Can´t wait to actually test escalation

Eyjio wrote:
Well, Reavers were just added in the FW update and Eldar got their silly broken tanks too. If you needed any reason not to use Escalation, that's about as good as it gets. Oh, and the Warhound was also readded, so now you can get AV14 for your 4 Str D blast spewer and spend less points.

Yeah, I vote we don't listen to the FW stuff unless you want to play IG+warhound titans:the game.

EDIT: Actually, they added the Vampire Hunter too, so it'll still be 100% Eldar, 100% of the time.

Wow, so soon? And a Reaver as well? I expected the Warhound, but a Reaver?!?

It isn't so bad, however. The Reaver is about 1450 or so. He is not viable in a 1750 game. He is barely viable at 2K. Just send FMC daemons against the reaver and the Reaver-army has got practically no chance.

Or send a stormraven/thunderhawk his way. Then once, they get close enough, disembark and assault to tie it up for the rest of the game.

BTW, do you have a link to the FW updates? Please share with all the readers.

 Illumini wrote:
Warhounds don´t have holo fields or can move 36" in a turn. A lascannon has the same chance of causing at least 1 HP damage on the eldar titan and a warhound (of course better chance of causing more HP´s). Gravguns and melta in meltarange are better against the warhound.

Can´t wait to actually test escalation

The warhound does have AV14 which does make him more resilient vs S7/8 guns.

And it's got a couple of Void Shield as well.