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Do Independent Characters attached to Assault Squads in the Skyhammer formation get to charge?

Depends upon the exact wording of the rule

They are not part of the formation. No.

 Byte wrote:
They are not part of the formation. No.

It says 'The Assault Squad...' and when ICs join a squad they become part of the squad for all intents and purposes no?

I read it as "yes, they can assault."

Due to IC's becoming part of the unit. The unit is still a "skyhammer annihilation force assault squad" even if commander Dante joins it.

That would be consistent with the lion's share of unit targeting effects in the game. For example, if you enfeebled the assault squad with Dante in it, Dante does not get to stay at T4 while the others drop to T3. It is still an assault squad, regardless of whether it has a sarge, vet sarge, Dante, or any other IC.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Byte wrote:
They are not part of the formation. No.

It says 'The Assault Squad...' and when ICs join a squad they become part of the squad for all intents and purposes no?

They're not part of the formation however, and the Assault Squad gets to charge as part of the formation special rule.

the assault squad gets to assault due to formation rules yes..

the IC is part of that squad so also gets to assault with them...

you explicitly do not have to be part of the formation for the rule to take effect, you only need to be part of the assault squad.


only if you detach the IC would it not be able to charge

 easysauce wrote:
the assault squad gets to assault due to formation rules yes..
the IC is part of that squad so also gets to assault with them...
you explicitly do not have to be part of the formation for the rule to take effect, you only need to be part of the assault squad.
only if you detach the IC would it not be able to charge

The IC is not part of the formation however, and would not be able to assault because of that.

Nowhere in the formation's special rules does it state that the rule for the Assault Squads charging extends to Independent Characters joining the unit. It specifically applies to the formation and just the formation.

Formation rules refer to the units in the formation and an IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

On the bright side, we now have a legit reason to take shrike

 jokerkd wrote:
Formation rules refer to the units in the formation and an IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

On the bright side, we now have a legit reason to take shrike

Special rules are not necessarily granted to or from units/ICs. The formation grants the special rule but does not expressly permit you to bestow it on models outside of the formation.

thats not true kanluwen,


the formation gives permission to the unit,

the IC is part of that unit.

there is no rule that states only MODELS in that formation may benefit,

the rules bestowed are upon the UNIT as a whole, and that UNIT may include IC's

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Formation rules refer to the units in the formation and an IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

On the bright side, we now have a legit reason to take shrike

Special rules are not necessarily granted to or from units/ICs.

This is true. But a special rule that refers to a unit, or states that "units with at least one model with......." do affect everything in the unit.

the special rule doesn't say it extends to the unit. It extends to the unit from the formation.

it requires that it is an assault squad from the skyhammer formation. "If an assault squad from the skyhammer annihilation force charges..."

technically the IC is not from the formation when joined to the unit. Since formations are done before deployment, and we are never told a model can switch or count as being part of the formation. So the unit has models in it that are from different formations.

however there is no restriction that the assault squad can only be from that formation[although units cannot belong to more than one formation prior to deployment of course], so I guess its not against the RAW ie "only models from this formation may..." or "an unit that contains only models with this rule may.."

The assault squad is a unit. The IC counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes

The rules say the unit is part of the formation, then the IC counts as part of the unit for the purpose of that rule

The question seems to be ... are the rules inclusive or exclusive? Counter-Attack says "If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule...". Deep Strike says that all models in the unit must have that special rule. Transports are specifically stated to gain Outflank or Deep Strike from their occupants. So, no he would not get the bonus because the Special Ability is exclusive..

 jokerkd wrote:
The assault squad is a unit. The IC counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes

The rules say the unit is part of the formation, then the IC counts as part of the unit for the purpose of that rule

all rules purposes is not well defined.

If you join an eldar IC to a dark eldar IC, which faction is the unit? Does the IC have the same faction as the unit? faction is a rules purpose.

The assault unit is part of the formation before deployment, the IC is part of its formation before deployment- a separate formation.

When the two are joined into one unit, which formation is the IC from? Does the IC lose their own formation? (formation bonuses)

The answer cannot be the skyammer annhilation formation, because the IC does not have permission to be in more than one formation- as per detachments and formations.

The IC is part of the unit, but is not part of the formation. This rule calls out the unit from that formation. But does not say it may not include models from other formations, nor does it say it only models from this formation- so despite the IC not being from the formation it is part of the unit assault unit, and the assault unit minus the IC is from the formation. There is no restriction on the special rule that other models in the unit not from the formation may not benefit, and there is no required permission that all models be from the formation, just the unit. However the unit is not entirely from the formation, but it is from the formation with a model from another formation. Therefore it is from the formation. And has a model from another formation as well

Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

Just double-checked all the relevant pages in the BRB, and the Skyhammer specific wording, and I have to agree. The Skyhammer formation very explicitly states that Shock Deployment, First the Fire then the Blade, Suppressing Fusillade, and Leave No Survivors are SPECIAL RULES. Also, the BRB is very explicit on pg 166 about ICs and Special Rules; in fact there is an entire paragraph with its own heading that very clearly states that ICs do not benefit from a unit's Special Rules unless explicitly stated. Nowhere in the Skyhammer wording does it explicitly state that ICs joining the unit benefit from their special rules. To those of you that would argue that the IC becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", you are correct. However, see above in that the BRB also made an exception to that SPECIFICALLY for "special rules".

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

It also states that all conditions that affect the unit when applied while the IC is joined to it, affects the IC, too.

Keep in mind, the question is about the unit, and the IC is part of the unit. In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit.

I suppose a similar question is if an IC comes in from reserve, or exits a transport, and joins a unit during the movement phase that was about to assault an enemy unit, can they still charge that turn?

@blaktoof
As near as I can tell in the hypothetical dark eldar/eldar duo IC's unit, whichever model moved and joined the other would be the guy to lose his faction until the two were split again. Being GW rules, I certainly wouldn't back that up with money though. Interesting question.

Charistoph wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

It also states that all conditions that affect the unit when applied while the IC is joined to it, affects the IC, too.

Keep in mind, the question is about the unit, and the IC is part of the unit. In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit.

No it talks about effects not conditions, and no where in that paragraph over rides the paragraphs already quoted.

Charistoph wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

It also states that all conditions that affect the unit when applied while the IC is joined to it, affects the IC, too.

Keep in mind, the question is about the unit, and the IC is part of the unit. In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit.

1. "...and the IC is part of the unit". Correct. The IC is part of the unit.
2. "In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit." Incorrect. The Skyhammer formation in very bold letters lists its special abilities as....special abilities. In the BRB on pg 166, under the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH LABELED "SPECIAL ABILITIES", it states ICs do not benefit from special abilities of a unit they join unless explicitly stated in that special ability.

Couldn't you argue that the SR is a rule that's conferred to the unit by the formation? As such; "Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the the independent character is with them."
Like, the IC don't benefit from Relentless if he joins DC but if a psyker casts Endurance on the unit and confer the unit a 4+ FnP, he will also benefit because it's they are granted a special rule that confers to the whole unit. By that logic, is the IC not part of a unit that has a SR conferred upon them?

IDK, am I making sense here? Sorry if I'm not.

 Zewrath wrote:
Couldn't you argue that the SR is a rule that's conferred to the unit by the formation? As such; "Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the the independent character is with them."
Like, the IC don't benefit from Relentless if he joins DC but if a psyker casts Endurance on the unit and confer the unit a 4+ FnP, he will also benefit because it's they are granted a special rule that confers to the whole unit. By that logic, is the IC not part of a unit that has a SR conferred upon them?

IDK, am I making sense here? Sorry if I'm not.

That's covered under effects and its a separate entry

No, that's ongoing effects. Effects that specifically mentions duration, like if the IC and the unit he joined failed the LD tests for crew shaken and decides to disembark separately from the others.

I'm not sure "explicitly states" has to be as explicit as you may think. Read the example given as a rule that does confer (stubborn)

Also IRRC didn't we have a similar question regarding "Rising Crescendo"? Were it said that units from the formation was allowed to run and charge as long as all models in the unit had fleet. What happens when a Succubus joins a unit from that formation? She's not a part of that unit and that unit loses the ability because it stops being a unit from the specific formation? if she joins the unit then she becomes part of that unit and meets the formations requirements of being able to run and charge, if that's not the case then are you argueing that she somehow isn't? I don't see the difference in this case. The formation requires you to be an assault squad from the selected formation in order to get that SR. If an IC joins the unit he's a member of that assault squad for all rules and purposes, thus he meets the requirements of being be able to charge.


Edit: now that I think about it, does the formation actually specifically state that they grant a special rule, as opposed to just saying that it's a generic formation bonus? If yes, then disregard my former posts and I agree quickfuze.

This is xactly the same question, and has exactly the same answer, as joining ICs to a nemesis strike force from a non-GK codex.

Yes, while the IC is a member of the Assault Marine unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES the RULE that grants the assault marine UNIT the ability to assualt "affects" the IC.

To summarise; if you deny the AM unit the ability to declare a charge, you will need to show a restriction on the specific permission the unit has, or you need to show the IC is not a memebr of the unit. If you can show neither - and you cannot - the unit retains its' permission to charge.

I concur with Nos. it's not a case of the Assault Squad has a rule, and that rule does not confer to the attached IC. It's a case of the formation conferring a rule onto the Assault Squad which also has an IC attached.

SJ

If that's how it worked to would state so. We can't just fill in the blanks.