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Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






I'm just excited about the increased range.

Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.

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Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

Alright Fellas,

Been playin Eldar since Rogue Trader...

The Eldar function with SPEED and PRECISE firepower.

The fact that Gav "swallower" Thorpe was allowed to screw up the 3rd ed codex and then Phil Kelley had to follow suit and try to salvage that heaping pile of gargabe is just SAD.

Guardians werent made to assault. Even though there are model for them, Scorpions and Banshees fill the role. So to give them ASSAULT 12" weapons was IDIOTIC!!

Fix the Shuriken Catapult -- just make it Rapid fire 24" and Rending.

Cannons just bump up str and number of shots, Shrieker has the blast.

OR...

Totally get away from the Shuriken idea altogther and get back to the Lasblaster..
Has anyone played with the Corsairs list out of the Imperial Armor book?
THAT is how an Eldar army should work, not the crap the Gav made up...

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Kirasu wrote:
Strength 3 guns would be incredibly awful no matter if they were assault 3. You wouldn't be able to glance any vehicle or wound T7 at all. Re-rolls don't help when the chance is 0.

The problem with Eldar isn't their inability to wound things so shred is fairly pointless. We just need vehicles and units that are playable again. For an army that is supposed to one of the fastest instead Eldar is quite slow (at least with the units that are playable).

Still unsure why T8 wraithlords are a big deal as they were designed to be comparable to dreadnoughts yet T8 is only AV 11/12. Even T10 is easier to wound than a land raider.


Can't glance vehicles or wound T7? First fits the more specialized roles of the Eldar, and makes support weapons and various aspects more useful. Second only affects 3 models in the game right now- GUO, Talos, and Wraithlord base. All other MCs are T6 or less. Sure, Iron-Arm, but Eldar ought to have good psychic defenses, even if Runes of Warding is nerfed.

T8 Wraithlord is OK when you compare it to vehicles, but when you compare it to other MCs, it becomes a problem. Standard MC toughness is 6, with a few tougher ones at 7. Gargantuan Creatures tend to be tough 8 until you get into the big ones. If you want the Wraithlord to be a dreadnought equivalent, it should go back to being a walker. Or if you want it to be a MC, drop it to T6 like the rest of the similarly sized MCs. Yes, same toughness as Wraithguard, but they are made of the same material. Give it a 4th wound and a 5++ save to make up for the drop to T6. Then the new Wraithknight could be larger and tougher without being overly so- say T7 4-5 wounds 2+/5++
   
Made in au
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Brisbane, Australia

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Alright Fellas,

Been playin Eldar since Rogue Trader...

The Eldar function with SPEED and PRECISE firepower.

The fact that Gav "swallower" Thorpe was allowed to screw up the 3rd ed codex and then Phil Kelley had to follow suit and try to salvage that heaping pile of gargabe is just SAD.

Guardians werent made to assault. Even though there are model for them, Scorpions and Banshees fill the role. So to give them ASSAULT 12" weapons was IDIOTIC!!

Fix the Shuriken Catapult -- just make it Rapid fire 24" and Rending.

Cannons just bump up str and number of shots, Shrieker has the blast.

OR...

Totally get away from the Shuriken idea altogther and get back to the Lasblaster..
Has anyone played with the Corsairs list out of the Imperial Armor book?
THAT is how an Eldar army should work, not the crap the Gav made up...


You echo my thoughts precisely sir. And you are spot on about how the Corsairs work - Fast, hard hitting and elusive. With a points review, there is no reason why they can't become that force to be reckoned with they were intended to be back in the infancy of 40k.

ERROR: Reality.sys corrupted. Reboot Universe? Y/N

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Eldar - 105,000pts (Estimated), Tyranids - 15,000pts

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Yup. Eldar used to be fragile troops that relied on above average Psychic powers and technology, even at the level of the basic infantry rifle. Their Catapults used to literally be the same stats as Storm Bolters, and the Shuriken Cannon/Shrieker cannon used to have a 36" range. Shuriken weaponry used to be something that they excelled at in 2nd ed, and since 3rd ed it sucks.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

 Mkvenner wrote:


'Talking about Salvo'


The problem is that it's too much like Rapid Fire.

It needs to be that no matter what the weapon's XX" range is that the first number for the weapons rate of fire is used when moving and the second number is for sitting still or being fired from a vehicle.


Yup, I'd agree with that.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion






FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Alright Fellas,

Been playin Eldar since Rogue Trader...

The Eldar function with SPEED and PRECISE firepower.

The fact that Gav "swallower" Thorpe was allowed to screw up the 3rd ed codex and then Phil Kelley had to follow suit and try to salvage that heaping pile of gargabe is just SAD.

Guardians werent made to assault. Even though there are model for them, Scorpions and Banshees fill the role. So to give them ASSAULT 12" weapons was IDIOTIC!!

Fix the Shuriken Catapult -- just make it Rapid fire 24" and Rending.

Cannons just bump up str and number of shots, Shrieker has the blast.

OR...

Totally get away from the Shuriken idea altogther and get back to the Lasblaster..
Has anyone played with the Corsairs list out of the Imperial Armor book?
THAT is how an Eldar army should work, not the crap the Gav made up...


AMEN AMEN AMEN

I actually stopped reading the HH series when Deliverence came out, cause I couldn't stand the idea of buying another Gav Thorpe PoS. Seriously, 12" catapults? Avatar with a 5+ and no shooting attack? 3rd codex was just bad. Then 4th did almost nothing to change the endemic problems Gav introduced. Except remove 3 shot Star Cannons. The 3rd edition codex was a prime example of swinging the pendulum wildly with no direction or reason.

What I'd like to see addressed in the new codex, but probably won't be, is the fact that we have two jump troops but neither is cc oriented. We have to cc units with no delivery mechanism. And, as above, 12" catapults which make absolutely no sense on our core troops.

It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Maybe we get a rule that allows us to assault after we deepstrike. That would make Swooping hawks worthy of their points lol.

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Agile Revenant Titan





Scotland

FarseerAndyMan wrote:

Fix the Shuriken Catapult -- just make it Rapid fire 24" and Rending.


In the words of Consuela the Maid: "Ah no......"

Rending on a basic infantry weapon is madness. Pure madness!

I'd prefer:

24" S3 AP5 Assault 3 Shred.

Iranna.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

It doesn't even need shred, or rending. At strength 3 assault 3 it already has an increased damage output, before considering the doubled range.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
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Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

The Shuriken Catapult is a mainstay weapon of the Eldar that's been around since Rogue Trader, with little change along the way (going from Sustained Fire Dice to Assault 2 is the biggest change I can think of).

I don't really think GW is going to change the strength of such an iconic weapon, and I would be really surprised if they did. I can see them changing the range and possibly the rate of fire, but not the basic gun.

We may see Exarch (or whatever they'll be called now) powers that add things like Fleshbane or Rending, which would be interesting and fun.

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Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

 Lorek wrote:
The Shuriken Catapult is a mainstay weapon of the Eldar that's been around since Rogue Trader, with little change along the way (going from Sustained Fire Dice to Assault 2 is the biggest change I can think of).

Didn't they go from a bolter equivalent with -2 armour save in RT, to sustained fire in 2nd, to rapid fire in 3rd to the short ranged assault 2 in 4th? Which basically means they were overhauled every Eldar codex.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Las Vegas

 Redemption wrote:
 Lorek wrote:
The Shuriken Catapult is a mainstay weapon of the Eldar that's been around since Rogue Trader, with little change along the way (going from Sustained Fire Dice to Assault 2 is the biggest change I can think of).

Didn't they go from a bolter equivalent with -2 armour save in RT, to sustained fire in 2nd, to rapid fire in 3rd to the short ranged assault 2 in 4th? Which basically means they were overhauled every Eldar codex.


Nope. From 3rd Ed Codex on (can't remember if it was also in the main rulebook list), Shuricats have been 12" Assault 2 4/5.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

 Lorek wrote:
The Shuriken Catapult is a mainstay weapon of the Eldar that's been around since Rogue Trader, with little change along the way (going from Sustained Fire Dice to Assault 2 is the biggest change I can think of).

I don't really think GW is going to change the strength of such an iconic weapon, and I would be really surprised if they did. I can see them changing the range and possibly the rate of fire, but not the basic gun.

We may see Exarch (or whatever they'll be called now) powers that add things like Fleshbane or Rending, which would be interesting and fun.


I'm not saying they will change it in this (I agree; they probably won't), but I still think they should.

Shuriken weapons are known for their rate of fire, rather than having the same strength as a 'bolt'; I think Str 3 Assault 3 better reflects this and even gives a greater damage output vs. your usual infantry.
At Assault 24" (or arguably even 18") a str4 assault 2 is better than a bolter, and I think changing it as I describe gives it its own character, as well as the much needed increased range.

Warlock powers (exarch doesn't really affect Shuriken too much) that help would be neat, but a range boost is needed at least.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/14 18:30:40


Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in us
Horrific Howling Banshee




Neenah, Wisconsin

From Just Dave:At Assault 24" (or arguably even 18") a str4 assault 2 is better than a bolter


And?

The shuriken catapult was SUPPOSED to be better than a bolter. It was the same as a storm bolter. With 3rd it was different, but somewhat equivalent, but since rapid fire has gotten better with every edition, now it is far inferior. Storm bolter stats would be just about right. Then leave guardians where they are points wise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/14 18:41:33


Visit my blog at www.goingaming.blogspot.com


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

 Kyrolon wrote:
From Just Dave:At Assault 24" (or arguably even 18") a str4 assault 2 is better than a bolter


And?

The shuriken catapult was SUPPOSED to be better than a bolter. It was the same as a storm bolter. With 3rd it was different, but somewhat equivalent, but since rapid fire has gotten better with every edition, now it is far inferior. Storm bolter stats would be just about right. Then leave guardians where they are points wise.


I don't think the standard Eldar weapon being superior to the standard Space Marine weapon is right. I don't even think a weapon that fires monomolecular discs should have the same strength as essentially a miniature rocket.

Again, at Str3 Assault 3 it's actually superior to a bolter against standard infantry; combine that with increased range and it'll help the Guardians and carve out their own niche. Their standard weapon simply shouldn't be the equivalent of the Grey Knights IMHO.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Just Dave wrote:
 Kyrolon wrote:
From Just Dave:At Assault 24" (or arguably even 18") a str4 assault 2 is better than a bolter


And?

The shuriken catapult was SUPPOSED to be better than a bolter. It was the same as a storm bolter. With 3rd it was different, but somewhat equivalent, but since rapid fire has gotten better with every edition, now it is far inferior. Storm bolter stats would be just about right. Then leave guardians where they are points wise.


I don't think the standard Eldar weapon being superior to the standard Space Marine weapon is right. I don't even think a weapon that fires monomolecular discs should have the same strength as essentially a miniature rocket.

Again, at Str3 Assault 3 it's actually superior to a bolter against standard infantry; combine that with increased range and it'll help the Guardians and carve out their own niche. Their standard weapon simply shouldn't be the equivalent of the Grey Knights IMHO.


The Grey Knights best weapon is that they're Grey Knights

I'd be happy with just a range increase on shuricats. I'd actually use them then - all the rumours sound just too good for me to believe.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/14 18:54:29


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

 Just Dave wrote:

I don't think the standard Eldar weapon being superior to the standard Space Marine weapon is right. I don't even think a weapon that fires monomolecular discs should have the same strength as essentially a miniature rocket.


Again, it has been far better than a Bolter before, I think there's no real reason it shouldn't be. But balance may come into it. Rending on Troops at such good range could get obscene, that's true. Shred might be a nice way to represent the blades.

It should be Assault with better range so they can constantly step away from combats that they don't want. That in itself is a powerful weapon.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
 Just Dave wrote:

I don't think the standard Eldar weapon being superior to the standard Space Marine weapon is right. I don't even think a weapon that fires monomolecular discs should have the same strength as essentially a miniature rocket.


Again, it has been far better than a Bolter before, I think there's no real reason it shouldn't be. But balance may come into it. Rending on Troops at such good range could get obscene, that's true. Shred might be a nice way to represent the blades.

It should be Assault with better range so they can constantly step away from combats that they don't want. That in itself is a powerful weapon.


I don't think 2nd Edition should be considered the standard to follow, personally.

Again, I don't think shred or rending are needed; an increased range (and other changes to emphasise their support role, that I won't go into) is enough, as you kind of said. If you make it Str3 Assault 3, it'll actually have a slightly improved damage output, which will combine well with increased range and their psychic powers - that's my suggestion.

And again, I don't see why blades should be as powerful as a 'bolt'.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in us
Horrific Howling Banshee




Neenah, Wisconsin

Because in the vein of "sci fi tropes" that is a monomolecular blade being accelerated at a very high muzzle velocity. It is supposed to cut through things then tumble after hitting the target. Assuming you have the fantasy tech to make it, it could be a nasty weapon, good penetration and high damage to soft targets.

Just because something is rocket propelled doesn't make it the end al be all in weaponry.


Visit my blog at www.goingaming.blogspot.com


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

 Kyrolon wrote:
Because in the vein of "sci fi tropes" that is a monomolecular blade being accelerated at a very high muzzle velocity. It is supposed to cut through things then tumble after hitting the target. Assuming you have the fantasy tech to make it, it could be a nasty weapon, good penetration and high damage to soft targets.


Something reflected through increased AP or RoF. Likewise, Str3 Assault 3 makes it better against these soft targets.

Just because something is rocket propelled doesn't make it the end al be all in weaponry.


I didn't say that. It being explosive doesn't mean that either, but it helps.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in us
Horrific Howling Banshee




You keep saying categorically that S3 Assault 3 is better than S4 Assault 2.

T3: 1.5 vs 1.33 (+.17)
T4: 1 vs 1 (+0)
T5: .5 vs .67 (-.17)
T6: .5 vs .33 (+.17)
T7: - vs .33 (-.33)

AV10: - vs .33 (-.33)

In the 6 scenarios you might fire a S4 weapon, it got worse 3 times and better twice.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Imagining a storm of the sharpest razors imaginable, just barely wider than an atom, being propelled at ridiculous lay high speeds similar to a railgun. I can see how that would be extremely deadly. Also in this instance assault 3 doesn't mean 3 shots but 3 bursts of fire. So I can see how the accumulated strength can match a bolt and even why shred would be possible. As unlikely as it sounds.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Kyrolon wrote:

The shuriken catapult was SUPPOSED to be better than a bolter. It was the same as a storm bolter.

Shuriken Catapults were better than Stormbolters. They had a -2 save modifier. Stormbolters, like regular bolters, were only -1.

And since someone mentioned RT era, they had following fire, meaning they hit until they missed, up to one hit per guy in the target unit.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

But Bolters and Space Marines weren't what they are today in RT. They were just crooks, ruffians and low-lifes with too much aggression drafted into some space army. Calgar was raised as a Tyranid-slave boy and Ultramarines had an Eldar Librarian. So it might have made sense for Eldar Weapons to have been better back than. But even if the Eldar-background hasn't changed, the Space Marines (and Bolter) fluff sure did.


   
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In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

So, have we got any concrete info on this yet? Are Eldar definitely up for an update next month? Sorry for being slow...

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

In short no

(as GW never says anything official till just before it happens nowadays)

but it does seem a solid bet with most of the more reliable rumourmongers saying so

 
   
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Screaming Shining Spear




NeoGliwice III

Still, the rumours are really scarce considering that the codex (supposedly) will be around in ~3 weeks.

Good things are good,.. so it's good
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Fixture of Dakka





 Zweischneid wrote:
But Bolters and Space Marines weren't what they are today in RT. They were just crooks, ruffians and low-lifes with too much aggression drafted into some space army. Calgar was raised as a Tyranid-slave boy and Ultramarines had an Eldar Librarian. So it might have made sense for Eldar Weapons to have been better back than. But even if the Eldar-background hasn't changed, the Space Marines (and Bolter) fluff sure did.

2nd edition Marines were the same as they are now. 2nd edition Shuriken Catapults made bolters look like puke.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Even the Tau rumors were pretty scarce, considering. In about 2 weeks we can expect leaked codex pictures, I imagine.
   
 
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